#World of Darkness

1 messages · Page 43 of 1

mighty zephyr
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I mean wolves do have a language

hybrid dock
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You know what fair enough

marble sorrel
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'Make your character's history...then apply a human life'

hybrid dock
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This is me not having read apocalypse

mighty zephyr
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And my Lupus born had the touchstone of his former pack

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I mean wolves have a language irl

hybrid dock
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Oh shit fr?

rapid glacier
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this is the actual example in the book for a lupus-born touchstone

hybrid dock
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Pog

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There’s some interesting stuff to lean into

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And honestly I love lupus-born holy shit

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Would you believe I only recently found out this was a thing

mighty zephyr
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Wolves have a language, culture, and feel love and familial connections

rapid glacier
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theres a bunch of sidebarrs about playing lupus-born, and one of them mentions you having to spend a lot of time Homid due to circumstance and you tend to develop habits and such

hybrid dock
rapid glacier
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but like what Voy says, they do have something approximating a culture

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and you can have your characters interact with it if that's what you want to do or the ST has them in the story as parts to interact with

marble sorrel
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I've always found Crinos-born fascinating. An outsider to both humanity and wolves due to circumstances.

rapid glacier
hybrid dock
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It happens I guess

rapid glacier
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kinda wish they kept them in but took out that little tidbit

mighty zephyr
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I feel like theres no real way to keep them in without just redoing them completely

hybrid dock
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I do love playing things that were not human in these sorts of games

rapid glacier
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I would be okay with a top-down redo of Crinos-born

hybrid dock
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Something outside humanity hiding in it rather than originating from humans

rapid glacier
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maybe we can get a splat that expands Lupus options and includes a new version of crinos-born

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without the incest and slur

mighty zephyr
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And ableism

marble sorrel
hybrid dock
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Hell yeah

marble sorrel
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Being both 100% human and 100% fae is tricky when there's only 100% of you to go around

hybrid dock
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I’m super into that

nimble gale
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I got kicked out of the freehold for owning a SNES ama

vast blaze
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What generation are most vampiric leaders in the modern era?

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Like, heads of clans, rulers of cities, etc. etc.

nimble gale
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iirc you're looking at 9th to 7th in the new world and 8th to 4th in the old usually for like, princes/bishops.

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less that in V5 due to the beckoning

mighty zephyr
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Because of the Beckoning its mostly Ancillae

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8th to 10th? Iirc

vast blaze
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Right, right

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...wait aren't most 4th generations in torpor?

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Bit hard to lead when you're eeping

mighty zephyr
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There were people like Mithras

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But he dead

nimble gale
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most but not all, there were enough active ones in europe to like

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exist

tough pebble
# mighty zephyr Wolves have a language, culture, and feel love and familial connections

I always find it fun when animals do things traditionally considered only for humans.

Most animal have their own language, though it might not be in a form one would traditionally expect (insert the "why don't humans have a call for 'there's bees here let's leave' like elephants do" – "it's called 'there's bees here let's leave'" tumblr post here), and many have behaviors and other information learned through social means rather than genetic, usually from their parents, which is a good chunk of what a culture is.

Yet people are continuously surprised at crows, an insanely social animal with individual-level social structures, continuously performing feats usually considered exclusive to humans, like passing along information about a subject not present, even though that's a reasonably natural consequence of social dynamics where you're not necessarily in the same group every hour of the day.

Though on the other hand, that's not to say roleplaying as an animal requires no shift in thinking, just that it is not a one-dimensional thing with little to no depth.

For example, from what I've been told on the subject by someone more studied on it, most animals don't have complex organization of other species and mainly organize other living things based on if it is danger, food, neutral, or friend, and don't have a lot of perception of the self. The more social and longer lived an animal is, the more categorization details they're likely to have and the more complete awareness of self, but things like kinship may not be defined in a way that a human might.

It's a very fascinating real life subject, and it is still hard to write from the perspective of an animal, but yeah, generally that's not because the perspective is too simplistic to work with, but that you have to get a bit sideways in your thinking.

marble sorrel
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Wolf-Born Werewolf: "...why the fuck are all these guys talking about alphas? That's not how that works!"

mighty zephyr
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"So like, hes your dad?"

tough pebble
marble sorrel
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I still do some time want to do a toxic masculinity coach podcaster as an werewolf black spiral dancer antagonist.

tough pebble
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(Corvids in the wild exhibit fission-fusion social dynamics, which makes maintaining a strict hierarchy really hard, so it's even funnier because it has little mistakable equivalent in wild behavior, it just appears for completely unrelated reasons.)

Turns out that social animals in stressful environments do be desperate to not be at the bottom of the already terrible situation

tough pebble
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Doesn't even need to sell tainted supplements to his listeners, because Pentex is probably already doing that normally.

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Though then again, he could be selling the extra tainted stuff, because it's not like anyone is going to notice the sudden and extreme behavioral difference anyways.

rapid glacier
mighty zephyr
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Hes a Joe Rogan alike who calls his followers "the pack" and eats werewolf hearts to gain their powers

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His name is Track Morrison

rapid glacier
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that is a HELL of a name lmao, what book is that, Wyrmtide?

mighty zephyr
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iirc it's a free extra pdf

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but i'll ask

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yea

marble sorrel
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Dumbass werewolf gets tricked into drinking Colloidal silver by podcaster.

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'You're blue and you're dying''

rapid glacier
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....would that kill them?

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I mean if they stayed in a natural form, they'd be fine, surely

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I'm asking for myself, I might do some kind of injected silver crimes if my games line up to use it if it does indeed work like that

mighty zephyr
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Silver's only in supernatural forms aye

nimble gale
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I mean it also poisons like . Normal humans, just less immediately.

rapid glacier
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hey are we allowed to drop links to our games here

orchid void
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? w?

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i mean if you wanna recruit there is #misc-game-recruiting

rapid glacier
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no no I was gonna advertise my stream of the game I'm running in case anyone wanted to watch; I record them to show to friends and family because some of them like hearing the stories

orchid void
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Oh that’s totally fine to share!!!

rapid glacier
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I'll probably just share the vod assuming it doesnt get muted or whatever, but we're about to wrap after debrief

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suffice to say, two cubs down, one more to go, and the last two full fledged Cliath and then we've got ourselves a pack!

marble sorrel
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Fun

rapid glacier
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I'll link the vod when its done publishing

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I kinda bungled my intro but it all shook out, with only one technical hiccup on the second players' end with her wifi

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got a good feeling about this, I can't wait till next week when I get to do the other three

rapid glacier
vast blaze
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Making a Banu Haqim Sorcerer that uses a sword, there any magic shit I should take that would particularly benefit a spellblade-y build?

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Already gonna go for Lure of Flames, seems handy to generate magic fire on command in a vampire game

marble sorrel
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Which edition?

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If it's V20 I've got some suggestions but I'm less experianced in v5 so my advice there will be limited.

rapid glacier
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There is a ritual in blood sigils for buffing the blade in combat and using it as a rituals implement, I think it’s literally called Pact of the Blade

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Lemme finish my errands and I’ll even get you a page reference

mighty zephyr
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There's also the Thousand Cuts celerity power

vast blaze
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...also, I have learned of the Gargoyles and now I am SORELY tempted to try and make a Gargoyle spellblade instead

marble sorrel
# vast blaze V20 yeah

Okay, that I can advise a bit more on. In particular - I did an update for V20 for the Banu haqum specific swordmage magic. XD

vast blaze
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Niiiiiiiiiiiice

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Lay it on me, what should I go for here

marble sorrel
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As the existing version wasn't great.

mighty zephyr
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I would not go for a Gargoyle for your first vtm character

vast blaze
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...yeah it's definitely a bad idea

marble sorrel
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Gargoyles are very 'hahaha, yess...oh no!' even by vampire standards.

vast blaze
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It'd be FUN but I could not do ANYTHING without worrying if someone saw me

marble sorrel
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As they've got a lot of cool tricks but also get relentlessly kicked down constantly

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I'd second Voy's thoughts there

mighty zephyr
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I mean it would be fun only if the game is just trying to be an urban fantasy action game

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if it's anything else tone wise you're just kinda fucked

marble sorrel
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Of note: There are some non-appearance 0 variants of gargoyles in v20, which are a bit less stuffed.

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But it's still very 'uhh...tricky'

mighty zephyr
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You still have wings

marble sorrel
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Mordern Gargoyle attempting to be subtle

clear delta
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Gargoyles have cool stuff

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Is visceratika in the new editions?

mighty zephyr
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I do not know what that is

marble sorrel
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V5 made gargoyles not vampires.

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And well, that was a clan specific discipline so 'no' generally.

clear delta
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I see

mighty zephyr
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So then yeah

clear delta
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How do gargoyles work?

mighty zephyr
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Gargoyles in V5 are a type of ghoul

marble sorrel
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Clan specific disciplines became amalgams in some cases and vanished in others.

marble sorrel
# vast blaze Lay it on me, what should I go for here

Okay so there are a few paths that would work well:

  1. Awakening of the Steel. The base v20 version is bad but the GM of the game I'm in and I sat down and did a version of it that's more fitting. It's basicly 'Hey so you wanna channel the spirit of your blade to do cool wuxia bullshit'.
  2. Path of the Focused Mind. A mind affecting path that works more with using magic to control your own mind more than others. You resist mental effects better and can get bonuses due to Sheer Focus.
  3. Path of Mercury/Path of Praapti: It's literally teleportation. It's hard to make that not work with a swordmaster.
  4. Neptune's Might: It has a fair bit of support and control effects that are brutal. A well cast Water Prison can lock down a Crinos-form werewolf for a good bit.
  5. Path of mars: Literally the magic of war. Wind Dance is better defensively than celerity and none of the other effects are bad. The capstone lets you share that war magic with others, letting you spend a few blood points to turn all your friends into combat monsters too.
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Ritual-wise there is a ritual you want as a swordmage. Burning Blade. It sorta does what it says on the tin.

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And being a ritual you can buff the weapon in downtime and have it catch alight when you need to really kill a guy.

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Of all of them, I'd sorta lean towards Neptune's Might if you want something a bit more 'I'm a SwordMAGE'. It does good combat tricks that support 'And then I kill them with my sword' but also has plenty of support tools. Alternatively, Awakening of Steel if you want 'I'm a SWORDmage' and really focus on Mystical Stabbing.

vast blaze
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This is for a community server so I don't think I could convince them to alter Awakening of Steel

marble sorrel
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That's very fair

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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S9UMqzDedpY1WeHMesVd9dX0RYJPqteN3gV2QJleeYA/edit?usp=sharing This is what I did with it. Focusing it more on the 'do wuxia blademaster nonsense' side and having less 'Why is my rank 2 power Being Kinda Tricky To Disarm, which takes an entire turn to set up?'

Google Docs
Thaumaturgy

Awakening of the Steel Although combat mastery is hardly the sorcerer caste’s primary goal, they have a long tradition of standing ready to defend themselves and, if need be, assisting the warrior caste on the battlefield. Awakening of the Steel is one legacy of this preparedness, a path that som...

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•••• Strike at the True Flesh
Although pacifists may find other uses for blades, a warrior knows that weapons were created for one purpose: to carve an enemy’s flesh into bloody ruin. Strike at the True Flesh invokes the very essence of the sorcerer’s weapon, bringing out the embodiment of its nature (or, as the more classically minded would put it, invoking the Platonic form) and calls its symbolic power down upon her foe, cleaving apart less real defences.

The weapon in her hand is no longer a sword or a gun. It is the stone with which Caine caved in his brother’s skull, introducing the very concept of murder to the world.
vast blaze
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...question regarding Banu Haqim

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What do they actually do mostly

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I was led to believe they were hunters of dangerous vampires but apparently they're mostly assassins?

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Which is true?

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Or are they both true?

high current
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the stereotype in V20 and earlier is assassins and diablerists

mighty zephyr
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In V5 onwards they are also obsessed with morality and justice

clear delta
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I love that a group of mages you can join in awakening is straighf up diabolists
Summon the flaws and traumas you have as demons to negotiate or subdue, and send them out as minions

vast blaze
high current
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ye

vast blaze
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...tbh it may be better to just make a Brujah at this point, I'm starting to think my idea is closer to a Brujah that happens to be able to use blood magic

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Less of a stealthy wizard assassin and more of a warrior-wizard vigilante

mighty zephyr
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You probably arent starting with blood Sorcery then

vast blaze
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Mmm, true

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...well, there's nothing saying I can't be an Aasimite of a more idealistic bend

mighty zephyr
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Get ready to deal with the reality of being a vigilante in a world where convenient villains dont exist tho

vast blaze
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This is true

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Part of that delicious characterization

mighty zephyr
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But yeah like

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I would recommend ignoring all disciplines and mechanics

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And just make a person first

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And then make them a vampire

marble sorrel
marble sorrel
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They are stereotyped as assassins but well...that's a stereotype, not an accurate depiction of reality.

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Going with a Vampire Youxia is 100% in their wheelhouse too.

marble sorrel
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Pentex: "Yep, no convenient bad guys here!"

mighty zephyr
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I mean any Pentex person thats ontologically evil is likely not to be the target of a chargen lick

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And more likely youre just gonna be the meme version of batman where you just attack and murder the poor, mentally ill, and minorities

velvet sparrow
marble sorrel
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I mean there's plenty of room for 'villians that it's understandable a Vampire Youxia would go for' without requiring them to be ontologically evil. There are evil spirits all over the place and various pretty damn evil groups. World of Darkness is a shittier place than the real world/has a lot more villians in the wings.

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As if you want ontologically evil you're ruling out even the Baali and literal Demons. Hell, the Wyrm isn't Ontologically evil, it's gone insane but wasn't by it's very nature evil.

mighty zephyr
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Im more talking about people to feed on

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Since thats the actual worry

marble sorrel
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Oh sure but nothing stops a vampire feeding on consenting people. Especially in a V20 game where 'you need to kill people to really get the hunger down' isn't part of the setting/mechanics.

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If you're a vigilante to feed, that's a bit different to a vigilante who also feeds.

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...and then I got the stupid mental image of a Ventrue with Feeding Restriction(Nestle Executives) for the idea of someone being a vigilante to feed. Would not be remotely a thing for a real game but is amusing.

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Hmm...I should track down all the rituals that can be used to enhance a Haven.

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I kinda want to make a Cool Base for Aininur

marble sorrel
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Haven Rituals:

Level 1:
Defense of the Sacred Haven: While active, sunlight won't hurt people inside.
Tame the Maddening Flame: Fire inside isn't scary and does less harm.
Serenading the Kami: Makes various activities easier in the blessed area.

Level 2:
Deny the Intruder: Makes paperwork-based investigations into the haven super difficult. Very good against stuff like SI.

Level 3:
Animated Assistants: Doing some disney shit here. Objects move themselves to help. Brooms brush, pens take notes etc.
Scry the Hearthstone: Gives you innate sense for who's in your haven even if you can't see them.
Guardian’s Gaze: Ghost dog wakes you up if there's a threat while you are sleeping. Good boy.

Level 5:
Dedicate the Haven: Makes other haven rituals permanent. Serious help in terms of downtime upkeep.

Variable:
Thaumaturgical Ban: Tells mages to fuck off/stops them doing ritual magic to you while you're in your haven. The higher level you cast it, the better.
Warding: Lets you set up magic rules for who can and can't enter. Not unbeatable but very handy and exceptionally good at stopping mortals.

Okay, this seems reasonable/possible to work with.

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So a fully set up Cool Base protects against sunlight, fire, magecraft and paperwork.

marble sorrel
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Oh, I forgot the one that costs a permanent willpower but lets you set up portals between havens.

marble sorrel
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Player characters from the last session trying to work out why a Knight Templar Mage is lurking about.

image.png
clear delta
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So are baali the only demon summoners?

marble sorrel
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Abyss Mysticism is in many ways seen as hellish so any clan that does that could be seen as demonologists.

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But generally with demon summoners there's two main groups.

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Baali and Tremere.

clear delta
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Huh
Thought that was just a CofD thing to have "demon" be an umbrella

marble sorrel
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Because Tremere love getting their hands on all that forbidden lore.

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Now, technically, doing demolonology is a Big Crime but also: That's never stopped the tremere before and it's not going to start now.

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They just can't do it openly

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Another group that might be considered to do demonology is the Koldunic Sorcerers.

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As their elemental magic is actually got the single strongest claim to being Real Demon Magic.

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As it was taught to them by an actual Demon Splat Book Demon, an Earthbound.

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But it's not really what people think of when it comes to demolonolgy because Demon Splat Demons are also angels so it's just as much angel magic as demon magic.

clear delta
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So players can summon demons

marble sorrel
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Though getting seen doing it might result in you losing your head to the vampire cops

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Daimoinon likely has the strongest claim to the 'it's an unholy monster' style of demon.

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As notably - True Faith absolutely fucking murders attempts to use it.

clear delta
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So users of it can't genuinely worship demons

marble sorrel
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Nah. Just means that true faith is a near absolute defence against it.

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True faith won't fuck up things you like

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It's why true faith vampires don't just drive away their friends.

clear delta
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I see

marble sorrel
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For example a Baali attempting to use demonology on Aininur is going to need to make rolls that beat her willpower (9) and the first 2 successes don't count.

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Which is...not great odds.

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That said: Demons are very handy minions if you're enough of a psycho to summon them.

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A Demon of Greed means you've got instant Resources 5 as he just spills gems and gold from his hands.

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While even a werewolf would take a while to manage to cut through a demon of sloth.

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A Demon of Wrath is going to rip through all but a seriously experianced vampire.

vast blaze
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Question regarding XP in V20, does it function the same as freebie points?

rapid glacier
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It didn’t when I played a decade ago, freebie points and xp had different uses

vast blaze
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Ah, I see how it works now

patent talon
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"what's a little bank fraud between friends, huh?"

marble sorrel
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I'm amused that all the PCs had a very different reaction.

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Religious Fanatics, Knights, Bankers, Whatever They Want I Didn't Do It

hybrid dock
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So

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I’ve been starting to read the web serial Unsong

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An interlude included a section where Friday kept repeating for every single person on earth.

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“HELLO PRESIDENT NIXON. THIS IS THE ARCHANGEL URIEL. I APOLOGIZE FOR RECENT DISRUPTIONS. THE MACHINERY OF THE UNIVERSE HAS BEEN SEVERELY DAMAGED. I AM WORKING TO CONTAIN THE EFFECTS, BUT AT THIS POINT MY POWER IS LIMITED BECAUSE I AM STILL MOSTLY METAPHORICAL. PLEASE INFORM EVERYONE THAT I REGRET THE INCONVENIENCE. AS COMPENSATION FOR YOUR TROUBLE, I HAVE GIVEN EVERY HUMAN THE ABILITY TO PLAY THE PIANO.”

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Suffice to say

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This would be a really funny way to play the god machine’s machinations in chronicles

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Just…an angel calls someone, says “sorry, time broke, we’re fixing it. Everyone can play piano now though, sorry for the inconvenience”

clear delta
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Compensation for maintenance

hybrid dock
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Yeah exactly

clear delta
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"Sorry, we're taking the universe down for a bit
Until it's up again, have this free subscription to heaven tv"

hybrid dock
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“SPACE HAS BEEN BROKEN, ALL COUNTRY BORDERS NOW LOOP BACK IN ON THEMSELVES. WE ARE WORKING TO FIX THE ISSUE.”

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I had a concept for a god machine infrastructure that was hooked into a Google support line so I just love the idea of sending a support ticket to an angel

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Like

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“Oh shit something’s broken”

clear delta
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"Wanna play a demo of God's new project? It's a deckbuilder universe"

hybrid dock
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I mean this is just straight up good god machine angel vibes

image0.jpg
orchid void
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Truly is!!

vast blaze
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Is Lure of Flame like

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Good

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It seems somewhat underwhelming at first glance

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I mean yeah, chucking a fireball at another vampire is pretty good all things considered, but like

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Is it worth the investment?

marble sorrel
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100%

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It's very blunt

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But it's very powerful.

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The big thing? You know how it has 'difficulty to soak'?

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That doesn't matter most of the time.

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Most people can't soak aggravated damage

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That only matters for 'can fortitude or Being A Werewolf reduce it'

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Throwing this is going to cause vampires to run screaming or die horribly

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The Fires of the Inferno is a better version of Lure of Flame but it's also Dark Thaumaturgy.

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So it comes at the cost of your immortal soul.

vast blaze
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Eh, I'm already a Vampire, God already hates my guts

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I guess it's more like

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It's rather a bit dull for my taste, though I suppose that's just an issue of lack of imagination

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Suppose it's more than just merely "yuck a fireball at someone and call it a day"?

marble sorrel
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Yeah, I'll say it's not my favorite path.

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It's a bit 'does one thing pretty well but only does a single big thing'

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It's one of those paths I'd be tempted to rewrite some day to be more in line with how like...Neptune works

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Where it does several things with water.

vast blaze
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Yeah, having it be like

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Summoning and controlling flame would be neat

marble sorrel
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I think considering what vampires have issues with, I'd likely have made the base trick a very simple one.

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You can put out/negate fire.

vast blaze
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...honestly I'm not sure that Lure of Flame would really be worth it for an Assimite, especially since I'm already building myself to be a fucking monster in melee combat

mighty zephyr
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I mean you can summon flame whenever you want

marble sorrel
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Like if you're a Very Flamable Fire Mage, it feels like hte first thing you should learn trick-wise is 'not be on fire' 😛

mighty zephyr
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statistically most things are flammable

vast blaze
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True, but you're more flammable than most things

rapid glacier
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Does it let you bypass Rotschreck

mighty zephyr
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You're about as flammable as most things

vast blaze
marble sorrel
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So if you throw a fireball? No fear

mighty zephyr
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"Oh I'd die if I get hit by a molotov cocktail" so does every living creature

marble sorrel
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If that fireball sets the entire forest on fire?

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Yeah, still scary

vast blaze
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So it's not like you conjure the fire in your palm and immediately have a breakdown

rapid glacier
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Damn that’d be a funny twist

marble sorrel
rapid glacier
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Gotta look the other way and throw a fireball with your eyes closed

vast blaze
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Using a Werewolf in this example is cheating

mighty zephyr
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Werewolves also take agg from fire!

marble sorrel
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They do but they can expressly soak it.

vast blaze
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Wereolves resist fucking everything, that's half their gimmick

rapid glacier
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Yeah no Fire is the best weapon against everything

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Except maybe mummies

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But also probably mummies

vast blaze
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Wouldn't Mummies naturally be pretty weak to flame

marble sorrel
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I think the rank 1 for the fire version of tzic fire elementalism is a nice one.

vast blaze
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They seem quite flammable

marble sorrel
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Passive, reduce the TN of red fear by your ranks in the path.

vast blaze
marble sorrel
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You're still getting the hang of controlling fire itself but you started by controlling your own relationship to fire.

rapid glacier
marble sorrel
# 
The Way of Fire
The ancient anathema of vampires, the element of fire offers the most powerful and dangerous tool available to koldun. The Way of Fire shares aspects with the Way of Earth, in that it focuses more on magma and fiery rock than pure, naked flame.

• Fiery Courage
No vampire can master an element he fears, so this power dims that fear to a mere ember of its former intensity. System: Once learned, this power is permanent and requires no activation roll or blood. The koldun subtracts his rating in the Way of Fire from the difficulty of Courage rolls to resist Rötschreck from exposure or proximity to flame. This power does not aid in resisting the panic that accompanies sunlight or any other causes apart from actual fire. If this reduces the difficulty of a Courage roll below two, the koldun simply does not succumb to the Red Fear. Koldun never risk Rötschrek from fire and magma they conjure.
mighty zephyr
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Mummies are also flammable I think

marble sorrel
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It's a nice simple 'oh yeah, fire is scary but my job is summoning fire. I'm notably better at handling being around fire than most people'

rapid glacier
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So just regular fear of fire that everyone else has

marble sorrel
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WoD Mummies are normal human levels of flammable/can become very non-flammable with the right amulets.

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And have the usual 'Will this kill a mummy? Sure. Will the mummy care? Well...he might be a bit peeved for a bit?'

mighty zephyr
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Unless they're sad

marble sorrel
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But yeah, I think there is room for a more interesting lure of flames. I think I'd likely if I took a shot at it go something like:

Rank 1: You can inflame and reduce fires but not actually create them. If you pay the blood, you can use it like a Dodge to remove successes on actions that would produce flame.
Rank 2: You get some basic firebolt throwing.
Rank 3: You become less flammable/reduce red fear a bit.
Rank 4: Behold, AOE Fire!
Rank 5: Oh fuck, Asshole Summoned A Fire Elemental
vast blaze
#

Is a sword much worse than an axe, mechanically speaking?

#

Not sure if having one less damage is going to be a dealbreaker

#

...especially considering a sword is a lot more easily concealed

marble sorrel
#

Are you using the corebook weapon statlines or the dark ages statlines? Dark ages mages melee weapons more distinct.

#

But both are pretty fine weapons.

vast blaze
#

V20 stats, sorry

mighty zephyr
#

If your plan is to min-max for combat you will probably find any choice particularly lacking, since WoD's not really a combat game

vast blaze
#

...that's true

#

Swords are ultimately probably a better idea then, since they're more easily concealed

marble sorrel
#

Honestly, there's little reason for you to not own both.

#

If you're in the modern era a nice short sword is something you can hide in a trenchcoat

#

While a fire axe is something you can have in the boot of a car and it's entirely normal.

#

the nice thing about axes is that they're a tool and tools are pretty easy to justify having lying about if someone sends the cops to give you a look over.

vast blaze
#

True

#

I mean swords aren't exactly unjustifiable either but an axe is easier to explain

marble sorrel
#

Yeah. I had a ball with a Geist who had a big fucking fire axe in his car and whenever anyone asked just showed his licence as a firefighter.

vast blaze
#

Lmao nice

#

...on the topic of melee

#

Ended up pumping my Melee up to 5, what should I mark my two specialties down as

#

Pumped my Occult to 4 as well, trying to figure out something for that

marble sorrel
#

The simple option is like 'a weapon of choice' but I do like some more 'useful if things are going well but not omniapplicable' specs. My Assamite right now has a melee spec in 'Single Combat'.

#

As she's much better at dueling someone than taking on an entire group of dudes

marble sorrel
#

There's a lot of annoying rituals and wards and sometimes some guy waggles his finger and throws a fireball at you

vast blaze
#

Unsure about non-vampires, but I know there's a nonzero chance of other thaumaturges showing up

velvet sparrow
#

Would Occult help with that?

marble sorrel
#

It's why v20 mages really don't like relying on 'quick and dirty' spellcasting when vampires get involved.

#

They really want rituals or spells that sidestep 'affecting the other guy directly'

mighty zephyr
#

Well that's an optional rule that would require your server to decide on

#

I know a lot of people don't abide it since it makes Mages into "squishy yet versatile" into "useless"

marble sorrel
#

Actually, the wits + occult part isn't optional.

#

The optional part is 'The GM can say they can't roll at all if they don't have a tool to counterspell with'

# 
Optional Limits
As an optional rule, the Storyteller may decide that a Night-Folk or mortal character cannot use countermagick at all unless he’s got some sort of magical knowledge. A vampire, for instance, may need the Thaumaturgy Discipline (or some other discipline that reflects mystic study and understanding) in order to resist a mage’s Arts. A hedge sorcerer could counter spells by default, but most other humans could not. Werecreatures, spirits, Bygones, and the fae are magic(k)al by their essential nature, but they might still need at least one dot in Occult or Rituals in order to understand the mage’s spells enough to counter them.Given the vulnerability that fae creatures have to the banality of Technocratic accomplishments, it’s fair to rule that changelings cannot counterspell technomagick at all… or, if they can, to raise the difficulty of doing so to 9 or even 10.For more details about the Night-Folk, see the section of that name in see the Mage 20 sourcebook Gods, Monsters, and Familiar Strangers.
#

And honestly, I don't think it really makes mages 'useless' so much as 'It turns out casting a spell directly at a vampire who is a master of the occult is difficult'. Most vampires even with those rules can't counterspell for shit and it's got a lot of carveouts for stuff it doesn't work on.

#

Like it works on 'Set the vampire on fire' but not 'throw a ball of fire at the vampire' (Who'll have to dodge it normally)

somber scarab
#

I imagine it's still going to be easier to cast at decently skilled vampire than it will be while taking on another mage as an equal

mighty zephyr
#

Not really

vast blaze
#

Aye

marble sorrel
mighty zephyr
#

A vampire out of character generation can have a dicepool of at most 6 to 8 while a starting mage only has a dicepool of 1-3

marble sorrel
#

...that said, I think that's also 'a vampire deliberately set up for counterspelling' and 'a mage who hasn't invested resources in counterspelling'

#

As for mages true faith adds + rank to counterspelling

#

And vampires are capped by willpower

mighty zephyr
#

I mean wits and occult are useful for a ton of character concepts

#

And starting willpower is almost always gonna be higher than arete

marble sorrel
#

Sure but mages also have access to dedicated counterspelling tools like Prime and setting up dedicated defences with spells. So it's more 'vampires, if set up for this, are good at this one specific way of countering spells'.

#

Which only work on 'Spells directly cast on the vampire themselves'.

#

But yeah, if the GM houserules away the counterspelling rules then I'd not reccomend that as a spec. Maybe something related to your particular style of magic? Iirc, you were going with a thaumaturge?

vast blaze
#

Lure of Flame Assamite

craggy coyote
#

Question: given the sheer power of mages, isn't arguably a good thing for relative "game balance" that mages can't just nuke vampires and have to use their brains instead of "lol fireball"?

mighty zephyr
#

Mages are theoretically powerful but usually lose the instant they are unprepared for a situation

clear delta
#

Yeah

craggy coyote
#

That seems... relatively ok to me? at least in most games party members do different things anyways

mighty zephyr
#

But the problem is that the investment to dicepool ratio is really skewed

craggy coyote
#

and you don't want the solution to game plots to be "the mage waves their hands"

clear delta
#

In resting state, mages are meat bags

nimble gale
#

Mages can do a little improvization but they're definitely weaker when forced into an unforseen situation. Also, paradox.

#

you gotta remember a mage is just, like, a dude.

mighty zephyr
#

To the point where the vampire is getting twice the dicepool for about half the xp cost

craggy coyote
#

Exactly, I'm not really seeing why them having to account for magic resistance and be wary around vampires is bad tho

#

Congrats, you have infinite power - over extend yourself, you will get stabbed

#

It explains why vampires are still around despite mages sheer potence at their peak

#

fuckers are hard to alter with magic

#

almost like they're the rsult of God's magic

mighty zephyr
#

Its not the fact that counterspelling is a thing

#

Its just its weirdly out of balance

clear delta
nimble gale
#

gestures at the Tremere

craggy coyote
# clear delta Why would mages wipe vampires out

I can think of a few reasons:

  1. If you're a crusder type they're active parasites and serial killers by definition.
  2. If you're a hermetic, their masquerade has a side effect of making it hard to awaken sleepers by reducing belief in magic in general, so killing vampires, and thus their ability to enforce the masquerdae helps alter consensus
  3. The tremere are actively trying to break into your walls
  4. You're a technocrat and getting really tired of the ventrue telling your accountants to pull a low tier god, its making controlling the masses harder
#

Plus most humans even mages are not gonna like the group of people that are seemingly immune to their reality warping power and view your entire species as cattle to manage

#

Lot of routes to a fight there

clear delta
craggy coyote
#

ye

marble sorrel
craggy coyote
#

Any vamp without celerity or fortitude is going to get bbq'd

marble sorrel
# 
On a related note, the Night-Folk cannot counter immediate-damage attacks like plasma bolts or Enlightened martial arts, nor can they oppose indirect assaults like weakened floors, fire, typhoons, and so forth. The only way to counter a mage’s attack is to recognize it as a mystic assault. Thaumaturgical counterspells won’t prevent a Virtual Adept from using Enlightened hypertech to hack the vampire prince’s bank account.
#

Basicly: Thaumaturgical Counterspelling for Night-Folk stops 'I turn you to stone' or 'I mind control you'

#

It can't stop 'I throw a fireball at you'

rapid glacier
#

I mean with enough Entropy, you can make it statistically unlikely to hit with the fireball

#

oh I misread, the mage is throwing the fireball this time

marble sorrel
#

I mean, most Night-Folk don't have Entropy. Mages have that one.

rapid glacier
#

there is a lot of fireballs in this chat rn, its hard to keep track of

marble sorrel
#

Though yeah, Entropy adding +3 TN can make vampires have a real hard time hitting shit.

#

That takes an attack go from TN 6 to TN 9 real fast.

#

Which means the mage is unlikely to be taking much more than Base Damage, if any.

#

The big worry entropy mages have is Potence.

#

As potence goes 'If I tag you with a single hit, I can spend blood for <Ranks In Potence> automatic levels of damage'

#

Though if you want some real scary bullshit, you don't go 'mage vs vampire', you go 'Hello my bloodsucking friend. Here is a a primium shield, an entropy-enhanced cravat and a matter-enhanced cape. Go make that other mage cry'

fair tapir
#

How do werewolves feel about mages? Can you just summon bigger fish to deal with the local vampires?

marble sorrel
#

Depends on the Mages and Depends on the Werewolves.

#

If you're a mage who came from their Kinfolk (people with the bloodline of woofs), there's a solid chance they'll consider you 'Kinda cool. Not as cool as a werewolf but you're trying'

#

Likewise if you're a spirit talking mage who doesn't abuse the spirits there's a solid chance that the spirits will vouch for you and the werewolves listen to spirits.

#

If you're a technomage though...you're on most woof shitlists as an agent of the weaver.

rapid glacier
#

They’re chill witht the Verbana I guess

#

Not fans of Etherites or the Technocracy as a whole, seeing as how PenteX is kind of a technocracy front in service to the Wyrm

#

I think the Thanatoi might also be up there in the shitlist, they don’t take kindly to fucking with the natural life cycle

mighty zephyr
#

They're hostile to most Mages and its considered a violation of the Litany to let a Mage into a Caern

#

Even if theyre kinfolk

marble sorrel
#

Mage do keep trying to steal Caerns

mighty zephyr
#

Which they then usually drain and destroy

rapid glacier
#

They don’t have many W5 entries for mages just that you shouldn’t trust them, but sometimes you need a guy

mighty zephyr
#

Ironically the Verbena and Dreamspeakers get along with them the worst out of most of the Traditions

rapid glacier
#

Word?

marble sorrel
#

The X20 books had a much higher assumption of crossover

rapid glacier
#

Deeamspeakers makes sense, cause they do Umbra fuckery but I figured the druids would at least leave them alone or respect them

mighty zephyr
#

The main friction point in W5 is that Mages are inherently incapable of perceiving Gaia's howl

#

Which makes them incapable of truly understanding the Garou viewpoint

rapid glacier
#

Oh yeah I bet that’ll be a pretty big point of contention

mighty zephyr
#

Mages just try their best to avoid them

rapid glacier
#

This is gonna be extra funny; my discord WtA that just started has a Mage as one of the primary antags

marble sorrel
#

Mind you: This also depends a lot on the werewolf group too. For example the 'you are weaver aligned' part is less of a hard line for glasswalkers, while the Fianna have a strong history of connection to Fae and Sorcery so they're more likely to be cool with the concept of a mage lurking about. Meanwhile Red Talons would be the opposite there, notably hostile to any 'human' force that can stand up to woofs.

rapid glacier
#

The other is a Nexus Crawler he broke out of a binding to turn into an AI data center

mighty zephyr
#

I still have no idea if the Mage in BoHN was Like That in Night Road

#

Or if they went wacky in between games

rapid glacier
#

They were wearing the Czar Vargo Did Nothing Wrong shirt

mighty zephyr
#

I dont recall that

#

I remember REJECT TECHNOCRACY
EMBRACE TRADITION

#

Which is a dogwhistle

rapid glacier
#

I think that’s the first one that they show up in

#

But you can find them later on after the first time meeting them if you do certain things but then they fuck off afterwards

marble sorrel
#

Non-Werewolf Shapechangers run a very similar sorta range. Werefoxes are natural dealmakers with a love of sorcery so they're much less hostile to mages and bears try to be friends with everyone who's not hostile to them or gaia.

#

Weresharks on the other hand...not so much

rapid glacier
#

I can’t imagine a wereshark being friends with anything by this point

marble sorrel
#

Weresharks can't even be friends with other shapechangers. XD

#

Unless they're Beast Court Weresharks

#

Who prove that weresharks can't even be friends with other weresharks

#

You also get various mage groups that regardless of how much harm they do or do not do to Gaia, are just fundementally unable to get along with woofs.

#

Like the Knights Templar, who actively hunt them as abominations unto god

mighty zephyr
#

Fun fact, werewolves were historically the agents of Satan way more prominently than vampires

marble sorrel
#

Vampires being satanic is really a very...Dracula...thing. Where he gets stuck in a tomb because they pasted up the door with crushed up eucharist.

nimble gale
#

and as we've discussed, book dracula is honestly more 'evil satan wizard' than 'vampire' in a lot of ways

#

I ran a solo mage game for a bit where the PC, a verbena, was kinfolk to the fianna and while they kept him away from the caerns in general, he did get invited along to important family events though with an eye kept on him, and he was of fairly good breeding so they were trying to marry him off to one of the full garou in the family to both get more garou and, hopefully, have one less mage they need to worry about stealing caerns and if he tries, he'll be close eough to kill easy.

rapid glacier
#

Ah the hubris method

nimble gale
#

hot take at least in 20th and previous Garou are actually worse about Hubris than Mages are

rapid glacier
#

I’m still making my way through the Mage book because it’s massive but yeah, from what I remember of 20th Werewolf that tracks

marble sorrel
#

I've got a mage sitting about to play who's a Kinain, who's kin keep trying to get in touch. The issue - She's a Void Engineer.

#

The technocracy are really not sure what to make of her reports of the moon rabbits and lunar princess she saw on her latest moon visit.

rapid glacier
#

I like W5’s tone of “the ones that came before us really screwed the pooch on this one”

nimble gale
#

still want to run that mage game one day where all the mages are also a minor splat from another splat

#

a kin, a kinain, a ghoul

#

I guess those are really the only major minor splats

marble sorrel
#

Because Iki is Iki, of course the Kinain Void Engineer has a metal arm.

nimble gale
#

You are sometimes a walking stereotype of yourself, but in your defense so am I lmao

marble sorrel
#

Look, a VE with a metal arm is not remotely out of character. Same with Fae. 😛

nimble gale
#

lol

marble sorrel
#

You also really don't want to fuck with a Kinain VE when they can go 'Hey so I have your True Name and I have an Orbital Laser Cannon. I can use these together'

marble sorrel
#

Changeling magic is very funny

image.png
#

'I invoke my magic to Be An Asshole'

#

That said: Changling Naming is also the 'HEY VAMPIRE, I CAN ALSO TURN YOU INTO A LAWN CHAIR!' art so it's not just being a dickhead.

#

It would take the other guy's True Name, a lot of glamour + willpower as well Naming 5, Some amount of actor (Depending on how well you know the vampire) and Prop 2 but you can do it.

marble sorrel
#

...man, C20 really did a serious improvement on the original changeling the dreaming.

#

the addition of unleashing and invoking the wyrd did a lot to help.

#

Unleashing gives the fae some 'big oomph' that lets them play in mage-level nonsense.

#

And invoking gives them a 'look, you can still do things even if the other guy isn't enchanted/if you're dealing with high banality people'

#

Invoking lets them basicly pull their Fey Self fully into reality for a time.

#

So you're not a Fae and a Human overlaid.

#

You are, to all physical things, that fae.

#

Which lets you do stuff like Soak Lethal Damage and turn chimerical effects fully physical.

#

So you can go 'HEY VAMPIRE, THAT DREAMING DRAGONFLAME IS ALSO PHYSICAL FIRE NOW'

#

Sorry for rambling

craggy coyote
marble sorrel
#

Undead are a common mythological thing but they're rarely hellish

craggy coyote
#

Oh see I thought this was WOD lore

#

Not just general mythology

#

and was very confused

marble sorrel
#

To be fair, that's also possible in WoD. There's more Black Spiral Dancers than there are Baali. XD

craggy coyote
#

I mean I guess, I just don't pay much attention to Demon lore (I don't like splats that spell out the upper tiers of the cosmology, keep it vague, you're a horrer series for gods sake, the unknown is what you thrive on)

marble sorrel
#

Luckily here in the Technocracy, we have full anti-satan countermeasures.

h6kcfAx.png
vast blaze
#

HEY SHITASS, CATCH

marble sorrel
#

Obviously, you can't attack between the physical reality and the umbra but with dimensional science you can transfer objects.

#

A primed grenade is an object.

craggy coyote
marble sorrel
#

Dimensional Science is the reason why Void Engineer attacks are not all space lasers.

#

There's also the classic 'End of Stargate Movie' option of 'What do you mean they teleported an armed nuke?'

vast blaze
#

Literally just

8bgyiq.jpg
marble sorrel
#

...you know it's kinda funny with that VE with Fae Blood idea is that there is one group that the Void Engineers and the Fae Courts would agree on.

nimble gale
#

Threat null?

marble sorrel
#

Yep!

#

You can't get a bigger, more overt example of banality than Threat Null, the guys with the active stated objective of killing dreams and imagination.

vast blaze
#

They sound like the villains in a kid's cartoon show lmao

#

I'm tempted to give my Banu Haqim 4-5 Occult just so he knows who they are and can shittalk them constantly

marble sorrel
#

Honestly, even 5 occult is likely 'don't know shit about them'. They're barely known to the technocracy.

nimble gale
#

You'd need more than that tbh, yeah

vast blaze
#

"These fucking guys are the literal LAMEST motherfuckers I have EVER heard of holy shit, they literally want to eradicate IMAGINATION AND DREAMS, they sound like the fucking villains of a FUCKING CHILDREN'S CARTOON"

vast blaze
nimble gale
#

Occ 5, knowledge of mages advantage and a VE ally and you'd probably know the term but

marble sorrel
#

If you want someone to shittalk that's also into that thing, Pentex is right there 😛

#

Who are Literally Captain Planet Villians

nimble gale
#

Thing is threat null is new

marble sorrel
#

Like an actual Pentex Plot might be 'summon captain polution'

marble sorrel
mighty zephyr
#

It also would have to assume the Avatar Storm is a thing

marble sorrel
#

There's 3 major forces in reality: Creation, Preservation and Destruction.

#

The Wyrm is the incarnation of the latter and behind the aformentioned Pentex.

vast blaze
#

Aye, yeah

marble sorrel
#

The Weaver is the incarnation of perservation and behind Threat Null.

vast blaze
#

The mad nihilistic god that wants to eradicate all life and reality afaik

marble sorrel
#

For the wyrm, yeah

vast blaze
#

Yeah I meant the Wyrm

marble sorrel
#

Threat Null are mages that have become so static and locked in that spontaneity and and imagination is actively anaethema to them.

vast blaze
#

I guess Threat Null is just the most drastic measure

marble sorrel
#

They've taken the technocracy anti-reality deviant ideas to one hundred and eleven.

#

And into full 'reality deviance can't exist if there is no deviance'

#

The technocracy for all its shittiness believes that humanity will be better off and happier under a more predictable universe.

#

Threat null doesn't.

#

They just believe deviance needs to stop existing and it needs to stop existing now.

#

Iteration X believes that medicine and cybernetics can be used to make people better. Smarter, more skilled. You Can Be More.

#

Autopolitans are their Threat Null Counterpart.

#

Autopolitans see humans as little more than parts for a clockwork machine. Tools to be upgraded, shaped as needed, used and discarded.

vast blaze
#

They sound like capitalists

#

(Derogatory)

marble sorrel
#

In many ways. Their capitalism-focused variant are Residents.

#

Who turn up to various spirit courts in immaculate black suits and offer deals.

#

Wouldn't it be so much better if the court of summer had dominion over more months of the year?

#

Well, we can help there. We can give you weapons.

#

We can give you soldiers.

#

And all we need are some trivial spiritual land rights when you win.

vast blaze
#

I hope to god that at least one entity killed their asses dead for the trouble

marble sorrel
#

The official Void Engineer Policy is 'if you see one, shoot him before he can open his mouth'

vast blaze
#

"I SEE THROUGH YOUR FUCKASS GAMES, FUCK OFF AND DIE"

nimble gale
#

Individual residents are replaceable. You know where to call them if you change your mind.

marble sorrel
# 
For the first few years of our return and re-exploration of the Void, we enjoyed a warm welcome from Residents, who gladly acted as our guides, interpreters, and even hosts. We dealt with them, and that was a mistake we didn’t see until too late. Every deal that a Resident makes has one goal: to further enmesh you into their network of obligations and debts. Before we even knew what we were dealing with, we were shuttling them around in our ships and delivering Primal Energy to their allies. When we lost three ships’ crews to Transhumanity conversion, though, the wheels came off the cart. The Resident didn’t understand why we were upset, since we had agreed to deliver manpower to their friends.
#

Basicly: All of the mages stuck in space have stopped being fully independent people and become archetypes of what they once were.

#

The Syndicate were capitalists and backroom dealers.

vast blaze
#

I hate them and I want to fucking eradicate them

marble sorrel
#

As the Residents, they are the incarnation of the deal with the devil. The man who has everything and it costs everything.

vast blaze
#

Unfortunately in most instances I wouldn't even know they exist

marble sorrel
#

Prong One: Kill It. Kill It With Fire.
Prone Two: Don't let the other technocrats find out that these guys used to be the off-planet parts of the technocracy/their upper management.

vast blaze
#

I assume prong two is one part "Do NOT let them know we fucked up this bad" and another part "DO NOT LET THEM GET SUCKERED INTO MAKING DEALS WITH THEM PLEASE GOD"

marble sorrel
#

The big thing? The technocracy uses mental conditioning to help maintain loyalty. It's not absolute/won't make people stupid but it does make them more likely to listen to their superiors.

#

...and those superiors are all rogue elements now

nimble gale
#

Threat Null are those superiors, in fact

marble sorrel
#

Look at these fuckers.

image.png
vast blaze
#

Makes me wanna play an escaped HIT Mark that fucking despises his creators even more tbh

marble sorrel
#

The big 'we're not sure' with Threat Null is...the Technocracy has 5 wings. Iteration X, New World Order, Progenitors, Syndicate and Void Engineers.

#

Threat null has four: Autopolitans, Agents, Transhumanity and Residents.

#

...where is the counterpart to the Void Engineers?

vast blaze
#

...

#

oh no

#

That has HORRIFIC implications

marble sorrel
#

There's a few options and there's really one good one and a whole lot of bad ones.

vast blaze
#

What on EARTH could be good about this situation

marble sorrel
#

The one good one is - The Void Engineers already rejected social conditioning and were very good at handling void adaption: They might have escaped what happened to the other wings. Either meaning they're out there able to help or they at least went down fighting.

#

The bad option is 'anything but that one'

vast blaze
#

Good point

marble sorrel
#

With a high possibility that the reason they've not been seen yet is 'The technocracy is kinda fucked with just the subtle/social sides of them in play. The void engineers were the military side. When they turn up, it's kinda game over'.

vast blaze
#

Knowing WoD, it's "Anything but that one"

marble sorrel
#

There's a solid chance if they have been corrupted...well, I like the VE but they're kinda vulnerable to 'might makes right'.

#

The corrupted version of them are likely Space Fascists.

#

Turning up with mech suits and power armour and laser rifles to conquer.

vast blaze
#

IT'S THE IMPERIUM

marble sorrel
#

100%. There is a soid chance the corrupted void engineers have gone full 'To avoid reality deviance we must Purge The Xenos'

vast blaze
#

God

#

Imagine hitting your Mage party with the "You're fighting Ultramarines now, good fucking luck shitass"

marble sorrel
#

Fun fact: The slang term for void engineers among other technocratic groups? Space Marines.

marble sorrel
#

Which means you're fighting guys your magic doesn't work on (Well, works a lot less well)

vast blaze
#

AND they have fuckass huge guns

#

...would make for a GREAT horror segment

nimble gale
#

So I did a bit of reading and apparently there is one more technocrat convention that might know about threat null

vast blaze
#

"Your powers don't work against these ten foot tall mutants bred SPECIFICALLY to kill, try to avoid them and escape the area, good luck shitass"

nimble gale
#

The Syndicate. As a theory on 'okay how much can we let upper management float away from ground level economics before it becomes a problem'

#

They just haven't put two and two together yet about what happened to upper management

marble sorrel
vast blaze
#

I kinda wanna play a game of Void Engineers and Syndicate realizing "Oh my fucking god, our leaders are fucking insane, we need to clear house and hard reset, holy shit this is astronomically bad, oh my fucking god"

nimble gale
#

"I ran the numbers and the numbers say fffffuuuuuuuuuu"

marble sorrel
#

So there's a solid chance at some point in WoD's future you'd going to have the plucky science guys with railguns and a belief the universe can be understood teaming up with elves to fight space fascists.

#

...wait...

mighty zephyr
#

I mean the Void Engineers are Also The Space Fascists

tough pebble
#

Tau ain't exactly beacons of liberty so the comparison still kinda works

marble sorrel
#

They're prone to going that way, which is why their counterpart is likely Even More That Way if it makes a showing

#

...you know what would be a fun idea for a less evil syndicate or new world order person for a game?

'My job is making sure that sleepers caught in the crossfire get proper compensation'

'This sleeper lost an arm to a werewolf. Lets put them in touch with some of our progenitor friends who think their new regeneration technique is ready for human trials'

#

Someone who's doing damage control in their own way.

#

Someone has a bad encounter with a night-kin, this person turns up with smiles and sympathy about the 'accident' or the 'terrorist attack' and helps them get their life back on track instead of ending up a Hunter or something.

vast blaze
marble sorrel
#

...I'm also now thinking about how people would have responded if Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines had a Technocracy questline in it.

'I'm playing my nice little urban fantasy vampire game and WHY IS THERE A TERMINATOR CHASING ME? HOW IS THIS PART OF THE GAME?'

vast blaze
vast blaze
nimble gale
#

Dude that poor fucking neonate already had to deal with a powerful wraith, some kote, a rokea and the tremere

#

Now they gotta fuck with a hit mark

marble sorrel
#

It would be very funny to go for the 'grab and bite' only to hear the sound of teeth on metal and have the 'human' you were about to bite chokeslam you.

marble sorrel
#

Oh hey, C20 revereted the idea that Vampires are Banal. They're no more banal than any other human/the example toredor is banality 3 because well...it's a toredor. They love art and expression and beauty.

olive citrus
#

Does the word Uktena have the same taboo as Wendigo?

mighty zephyr
#

It's still appropriated

marble sorrel
#

It was very much on the list of 'things that should be changed' for writers, yeah. It's not quite the same taboo but J. F. Sambrano, who worked on a lot of the 20th edition stuff/was working on the 5 stuff for a while expressed a desire not to use that term, yeah.

# 
Like many pop-culture presentations of Indigeneity from this time period (see Fern Gully, Dances With Wolves, Disney’s Pocahontas, or in TTRPGs, the NAN from Shadowrun) it was rife with problematic and even offensive stereotyping. The most obvious examples thereof are within the two "Pure Tribes" Uktena, and W****** who I will henceforth refer to as Older and Younger Brother. However, Indigenous inspiration was at the core of the game's spiritual premise as well, where animism and "Totems" are central to the setting and gameplay. The way these concepts are presented is trivializing and dehumanizing, but it is important to acknowledge that the appropriation present in Werewolf: the Apocalypse goes a lot deeper than the two Brother Tribes (even the term "Tribe" was meant to invoke a vision of Indigeneity compared to the previous setting in the line's use of "Clan").
#

One of these is 'don't even say the name' and the other isn't but that doesn't mean that the other is great to use.

#

(Though I'll admit I'm a hair confused on their Fern Gully comment, as that's a bit of an outlier in the list)

rapid glacier
#

Uktena is the Cherokee name for Horned Serpent, iirc, but the other one is Real Bad

#

As I understood it, invoking the other name is a kind of equivalent of a curse

mighty zephyr
#

I think the problem with it is largely less about it being Cursed, and more about that it's appropriative

#

same with Totem

marble sorrel
#

There is, as I understand it, issues with association too. Much like how you'd never use the term 'Holocaust' to describe a burnt offering these days. It's a cultural term with strong associations beyond just its literal meaning.

But either way I tend to fall under 'If the people whom that term is from ask not to use it, that's reason enough to not be a wanker'.

#

...anyone know who White Wolf/Paradox hired to handle the Fianna stuff culturally in W20/the transition to W5, like they got J. F. Sambrano for the Indigenous American stuff?

rapid glacier
#

Yeah I’m fine with swapping names out, it doesn’t hurt anyone in the long run here. I still kinda wish they let more indigenous authors put more flavor into the game line but only because there just isn’t a lot of exposure to those myths

olive citrus
#

I just ended up using the Ghost Council name for the Uktena and using a different name for younger brother.

marble sorrel
#

In other news: Ghoul Warhorse - Fucking Terrifying.

marble sorrel
#

Snrk
Threat Null are basicly the Ophidian Forces of Order from Ultima's Serpent Isle. Order without balance, breaking the world in their attempt to force it into a pattern they support.

vast blaze
#

Y'know what I kinda wanna play as

#

Ancient-ass Brujah knight from the Dark Ages

#

Be interesting to explore the views and beliefs of someone from a clan that once were proud warrior-poets but fell into what they are today

#

And the views of someone who's used to the supernatural just being... there

#

Not something to hide, not something the mortals are blind to, not something the Technocracy has been stamping out for centuries, just another fact of life

marble sorrel
#

...did someone message me? I've got a ping from the channel but can't find anything...

marble sorrel
vast blaze
#

Thought I read somewhere that White Wolf's team abused the shit out of the person they hired for cultural sensitivity in regards to newer editions of Werewolf

#

However, I'm not really sure if that's true, so I ended up deleting it so I wouldn't risk spread misinformation

vast blaze
marble sorrel
velvet sparrow
vast blaze
#

I managed to find it

#

Thought I was going stir crazy a minute

marble sorrel
#

...with the changing technological landscape, did any of the 20th edition or 5th ed books include rules for 'What if I use a drone'? That seems like increasingly a thing people would have access to.

#

Drop a molotov on the rival vampire with a quadcoptor

#

Found it in Hunter 5.

#

...weirdly enough, it's an edge (so only hunters can get it) not equipment or an advantage.

#

Also some Chronicles of Darkness rules in Hurt Locker.

#

But nothing for 20th/Non-Hunters in 5th ed, sadly.

#

I think how I'd handle them in 20th

Drones have a physical statline but no skills. The dice pool for actions is the drone's physical stats + the pilot's skill. So a Dex 1 drone is going to be slow and lumbering even with a drive 5 guy behind them.

You can control them but it's going to take a physical action to give a physical action to the drone. Doing drone *stuff* and you stuff will take Celerity or Splitting Dicepools.
twin mural
#

Mage The Awakening question: What's the best book that goes into details of the Pentacle and how the Orders interact? I've got a player that wants to have his character go from being a member of the Free Council to the Guardians of the Veil. From the descriptions in the core book that seems rather unlikely

mighty zephyr
#

Uhhhhhh

#

Tome of the Pentacle for 2nd edition

#

for 1st edition the various splatbooks for each Order

twin mural
#

Thanks, I'll check those out. Is changing Orders even addressed in those books? Especially the atlantean orders seem rather... set in their ways?

mighty zephyr
#

Yeah, it's rare but not impossible

#

And way easier the less involved you are in the Order

#

someone of high rank with a ton of secrets switching Orders would probably have to undergo mind wiping or something of the sort

twin mural
#

Good thing the character has only status 1 with the free council

mighty zephyr
#

Then yeah

#

Most likely the Free Council will roll their eyes and think they're a bit lame but otherwise move on without incident

#

If they were like status 4-5 it would be way more of a scandal

twin mural
#

Yeah, I think I'll put the challenge on the side of actually getting into the Guardians of the Veil

mighty zephyr
#

@orchid void Guardians of the Veil mentioned

orchid void
#

My guardian is a loyalist, the general vibe I go for is “Movie Intelligence Agency”/“Secret Vatican Hitmen”

twin mural
#

I feel like just deciding that you're done with the Free Council and thinking that the Guardians will just take you in is very informed by being a Libertine and having that freedom

#

And I think that's exactly what the Guardians do not like to see in their operatives

orchid void
#

What they seek is loyalty, at least by my read? They might not make it deep, nor learn more than the Exoteric Tenants

#

It’s important to remember the pentacle orders are mystery cults that share a collective “origin” in the Atlantean monomyth cycle

#

And the thing about mystery cults is they hate revealing the initiations

twin mural
#

Yeah, I think Loyalty is also a good angle (which he blatantly disrespects by switching sides). I'll also probably grill him a bit on his convictions, because the Guardian responsible for initiating him is the "I want to know my enemies" kind of deal. And from what I've read in the Free Council book the relationship is definitely fraught

vast blaze
#

There any ways to overcome armor penalties in Vampire 20th Edition?

high current
#

i would suggest that if he's being recruited into the Guardians, whoever is recruiting him would tell him to make a new Shadow Name and take their old Libertine identity as a Masque, keep up at least some amount of their relations with the Free Council
basically, becoming an actual spy rooSpy

marble sorrel
#

And plate armour has a lower armour penalty for its class than normal.

#

Sorry, Tome of Secrets: Dark Age

#

Dark Ages Companion later redid armour classes.

orchid void
#

for further example here’s my GoV

Lucy6.png
#

We All Love Lucy

marble sorrel
#

So plate armour is 6 soak for 2 penalty. Which is...pretty decent. Not without penalties but 6 soak will eat up a serious chunk of a werewolf's claws.

#

Up to your GM if masterclass applies after that or if plate armour is the masterclass.

#

My GM for a dark ages game ended up going 'Eh, I'll let masterclass apply to any class' so Aininur has rating 2 0 penalty armour so she can rock her John The Fearless Fit under her clothing, in case the other vampires get stabby in a court setting.

vast blaze
#

I'll ask after it

#

...kinda doubt it'll be allowed but maybe I'll get lucky and the GMs will say yes

vast blaze
#

Vaguely considering being Blind... there any Disciplines that can deal with blindness, or anything else I can invest into that can compensate? It seems thematically interesting, a blind swordsman-magus, but it also seems kinda not really worth the trouble of being blind.

mighty zephyr
#

Auspex could maybe

#

but I also don't think you should take flaws with the intent to ignore them

vast blaze
#

Oh it's not to ignore it

#

It's to just be able to baseline function around it

#

Still have all manner of issues, even if I can use magic echolocation

vast blaze
#

What does Path of the Levinbolt do? Found it in the automated sheet I was provided but it's not in the core book.

nimble gale
#

It's in rites if blood

#

You get lightning REAL LIGHTNING

vast blaze
#

...lightning you say

#

👀

#

Is it good

nimble gale
#

Dunno, I can give it a look in a minute

#

Busy with a work thing

rapid glacier
#

I think one of the LA by Night Characters had a kitbashed version of it in V5 but it was a fan favorite at my local WoD table ages ago

vast blaze
#

Seems more fun than Lure of Flame

velvet sparrow
#

Lets you do other Electricity manipulation besides lightning bolt, too

#

Well

vast blaze
#

Honestly an elemental master build seems pretty fun

#

Lure of Flames for fire, Neptune's Might for water, Levinbolt for air, and something for earth, I'm unsure what

nimble gale
#

Cap it off with spirit manipulation

rapid glacier
#

Forming vampire Captain Planet except you just wake up Caine and he asks you what your problem is

vast blaze
#

"By our powers combined, we are... CAINE! LORD OF VAMPIRES!"

"Dude what the fuck is your guys' problem"

dawn wigeon
#

tonight in changeling the lost: Guy gets turned into a park bench for 200 fucking years

vast blaze
#

Oh yeah how's that game going?

dawn wigeon
#

great

#

there's a changeling on the moon

velvet sparrow
hybrid dock
#

wh

#

what

#

why did i get pinged

#

huh?

velvet sparrow
#

I dunno just kind of... felt appropriate?

#

Was that a misread?

hybrid dock
#

i just didnt know what the read was

#

changeling the lost or getting turned into a park bench

#

or 200 year punishments

velvet sparrow
#

Park bench

mighty zephyr
#

BUT THERE AIN'T NO FEY
NOT MUCH TO SAY
SO WE SING A CHANGELING TUNE

hybrid dock
# velvet sparrow Park bench

...youre gonna have to elaborate on why this is a read on me but im not telling you its a misread, im just genuinely curious

velvet sparrow
#

I can't say why I just... felt like it was appropriate

hybrid dock
#

hmmm

#

i see i see

rapid glacier
#

Same energy

marble sorrel
#

In 'fun' things: Dauntain (Banality Changelings) can be so banal they fuck up mages.

#

They've become that much creatures of stasis.

#

And just generate paradox spirits to fuck up mages

marble sorrel
#

...oh they can also summon the Weaver equivalent of Nexus Crawlers

#

That is Bad.

rapid glacier
#

The Worst, probably

velvet sparrow
#

Are Nexus Crawlers not already Weaver?

rapid glacier
#

Nope, at least not in W5, they’re filed under Bane and those are all Wyrm-aligned

#

There are big Weaver spirits that function with similar outcomes but different motivations and methods, but Nexus Crawlers are just ontological Fuck Your Shit All Kinds of Up bane spirits

high current
#

even in older editions, they're wyrm-aligned

velvet sparrow
#

Ah, was just misremembering then

high current
#

their whole thing is warping reality which is very much opposing the weaver's thing of structure and order
easy to confuse otherwise though cause they are spider-like

velvet sparrow
#

They're big spiders called 'Nexus Crawlers' that sounds very Weaver-coded

vast blaze
#

Currently debating investing in Potence or Path of Mars for a Ventrue spellblade, which do you lot reckon would be a better idea

clear delta
#

Index from Project Moon as a mystery cult
Maybe the Prescripts guidance can act like being really lucky? Better rolls, I should probably look at fate spells and how they bless people

olive citrus
#

Other than lore (which I'm not particularly interested in) does Kinfolk W20 actually add anything new? Would it make more sense just to get the previous Kinfolk book for Kinfolk lore and creation?

nimble gale
#

It has a decent selection of kinfolk gifts, merits, and flaws

dusky ledge
#

Help I'm suddenly playing a Garou in a V5 game and know nothing about the mechanics of W5 what are the basics

mighty zephyr
#

Why are you playing a garou in a v5 game

vast blaze
#

Multi-splat game?

#

Was in one that unfortunately died a while ago

#

It was promising, we had a Mage (me), a Garou, I think a Revenant, and a Princess

#

It's a shame that it died out, it was quite fun playing a Yakuza boss mage alongside a sheltered naive rich girl with dreams of being a hero, a hobo that could also turn into a living war machine, and a detective that could see ghosts

high current
#

Garou is owod and Princess is an nwod fan game rooHmm and like, Revenants afaik are only a thing in oVampire, so i cant even assume you meant Uratha

vast blaze
#

Oh, no, he was using Werewolf 5e

#

I just refer to werewolves as Garou

high current
#

yeah but Princess is nwod

vast blaze
#

...wait then what the hell was the Princess player using...?

dusky ledge
# mighty zephyr Why are you playing a garou in a v5 game

Long story short:

  • I was playing a temporary character who died last session, and my main character is still out on vacation. Temp was supposed to die, it just happened early

  • Game is set in Chicago, another PC's sire is a werewolf hunter and is now threatening the standing truce

  • SPC Garou has been assisting us, and our ST suggested I play them for the rest of the arc

vast blaze
#

Cause I distinctly remember it being a 5e multi-splat game

high current
#

im also wondering how you had a Mage in a 5e game since we dont have a Mage 5th Edition yet

#

also Revenants aren't a thing in V5 yet rooThink

#

oh wait nevermind they are

mighty zephyr
#

They are yeah

mighty zephyr
#

Well here's the basics

#

Also another thing threatening the Chicago truce is that theres a Great Hunt being called on it

#

To purge it of the undead

#

If youre using w5 lore

dusky ledge
#

None of us know much about W5, so we're keeping it as bare-bones as possible

mighty zephyr
#

Well thats the basic mechanics

#

If you keep to the Native gifts you'll probably be a regular werewolf murder machine

#

The main thing to keep in mind is rage is very fluid

#

And should be going up and down in scenes like crazy

dusky ledge
#

Looks like this character has Eyes of the Owl, Crow's Laughter, and Rite of Dedication

mighty zephyr
#

designated NOT nakey

dusky ledge
#

Tribe is Hart Wardens, auspice (whatever that is) is Ragabash

mighty zephyr
#

Auspice is the moon phase you changed under

#

So ragabash is new moon

#

Hart Wardens are like paladins

#

They're highly defensive and vainglorious warriors

dusky ledge
#

Sounds right

high current
#

ragabash is the trickster/rogue auspice typically

clear delta
#

Index could be split between people who

  • Worship the god machine
  • Something that is part of what they worship and may be in line or opposition with it at times
  • Sees the god machine as a disease on the will of society
marble sorrel
#

...did the Hart Wardens keep the Fianna fey links or are they mostly a new clan?

#

I don't recall any fey stuff when I looked over w5 but it might be in other books

high current
#

afaik they're basically a whole new tribe

clear delta
mighty zephyr
#

The fae are in core iirc and theres no special connection

#

I dont think they would have any particular connection unless its through Stag

marble sorrel
#

Well, it was more about the historical one. Since they used to be the Fianna/the connection to Fae were a big part of when they were the Fianna, with a lot of their gifts coming from them.

#

Like their big combat gift was a welsh fey trick (The 'every second hit you take heals you instead of hurting you' one)

mighty zephyr
#

I mean yes but in W5 they aren't Irish anymore

#

So it would have to be through their Patron to be a consistent thing tribally

marble sorrel
#

...I mean, Welsh isn't irish and WoD fae are not locked to ireland...they're all over the planet.

#

But okay, there's no longer any fae connections in W5. That was the main question.

velvet sparrow
marble sorrel
#

Ehhh....ish? They lost all beliefs/culture that came from existing mythology.

#

So there's no longer any Werewolves of Ossory for example in the Fianna/Hart Wardens.

velvet sparrow
#

Right but if something has to come from their patron to be consistent...

Do they just... not believe anything anymore?

marble sorrel
#

Honestly this is getting outside of my expertise. I was asking questions after all about those connections, after all.

high current
#

i mean, the Glass Walkers still believe technology is worth using in the war against the Wyrm, and that's not purely because of their Patron spirit; I think Voy just meant gift-wise

#

Hart Wardens kinda got the short end of the stick in terms of like, having their flavor basically annihilated in the transition

mighty zephyr
#

They arent ethnicities is the main difference

velvet sparrow
#

Okay

high current
#

Galestalkers had their cultural identity scrubbed away but they're still known for their skill at tracking and ambushing, and the Ghost Council is still known for digging up occult secrets and taking a more mental approach generally

#

Hart Wardens went from having associations with fae and throwing parties to...basically nature paladins

mighty zephyr
#

I mean they still definitely have the party association considering their signature character is The Best At Moots

#

I also dont think the fae thing was thematically structural lore and was more just a tidbit considering fae aren't really a big thing in werewolf

marble sorrel
#

The Tuatha De Fionn was one of their main camps and their job was being diplomats to the fae/it was a notable enough fact that they got fae cards in Rage (The old card game). Their primary thematic associations was Fae and Keeping Garou History.

high current
# mighty zephyr I mean they still definitely have the party association considering their signat...

the two signature characters i can find for the Hart Wardens are both Galliards known for partying and moots, Shiro and the Impresario
and then there's the Sept of the Water's Birth, which has 2 named non-Galliard Hart Wardens(Ida Becker, Ragabash, and Sabah Taher, Philodox) who have no association with partying or moots
so Shiro and the Impresario may be known for partying because they're Galliards, more than because they're Hart Wardens vvvSip

mighty zephyr
#

I mean just because they can be other things doesnt mean theyre not known for a thing

#

Making all of them party animals is a bit boring and specific

high current
#

my point is,
Fianna: "they are known among the Garou for their passions for the pleasure of life, their skills and ferocity in battle, and as keepers of the music, stories, and lore of the Garou."
Hart Wardens: "The Hart Wardens are the keepers and stewards of nature, whether hallowing the pristine “undiscovered” places in the world or cultivating someplace particularly important to them toward a more structured purpose, such as a farm or orchard."
they went from being known for being boisterous and fun-loving, to basically just druids

mighty zephyr
#

I mean i can go into detail about why that is but I imagine it wouldnt be a fun conversation

#

If nothing else I dont see how this is Worse other than just saying they are "basically" their new thing

high current
#

They feel very bland next to the other W5 tribes imo
When everyone is a warrior of Gaia, being the tribe whose whole schtick is "protecting nature" doesn't stand out as much

mighty zephyr
high current
#

They had things going for them other than keeping history though. The fey connection and boisterous nature, which isn't a constant with Galliards(there's one, from older editions who iirc is a quiet type but has a lot of info on the Deep Umbra, because he spends a lot of time exploring it)

#

Dark Umbra, not Deep Umbra, my bad

mighty zephyr
high current
#

They also weren't previously known for staying in one place protecting things, any more than any other tribe VVSipp
As I said originally, they're essentially an entirely new tribe filling the space that Fianna left empty, barring a few details like Gaze of Balor still existing

#

And they're a lot less interesting than the others imo

mighty zephyr
#

I mean i cant argue that last point, youll like what you like

#

People dont get the Galestalkers but I adore em

#

And like, yeah, theyre the Hart Wardens, not the Fiana, and you are asked to take that at face value.

marble sorrel
#

...Fianna. Two ns.

#

That's an actual word/cultural term.

mighty zephyr
#

My phone auto corrected

hybrid dock
#

alas

#

the curse of autocorrect

mighty zephyr
#

Though i will point out
"A fían (plural fíana or fianna) was a small band of roving hunter-warriors."
According to Wikipedia

tough pebble
#

From my perspective the issue sounds like two things:

They didn't get enough new characterization in recompense for what was removed, leaving them very flat

WW went with the safe and easy option of only removing cultural connections, rather than fixing the insensitivity that was the core issue with those connections (in some cases there was no option other than removal to fix the insensitivity, e.g. misusing particular native american words, which is understandable)

So it can feel very "I feel bad for saying that you did a bad job fixing them, because their previous depiction was not great either, I wanted them to be done some justice, not effectively removed"

mighty zephyr
#

See personally I think framing it as the "safe and easy" option isnt exactly the best way to look at it. I really personally think "ethnicity as character class" is just not a sustainable concept to build a game on.

marble sorrel
#

deleted comment, was too mean

mighty zephyr
#

Thank you

marble sorrel
#

...huh?

mighty zephyr
#

Thank you for deleting the comment and not escalating the conversation

#

I appreciate it, genuinely

marble sorrel
#

I do really want to find out one of these days if WoD has ever had a Celtic Cultural Consultant.

#

As I know they had J. F. Sambrano for Indigenous American culture for a while.

#

And with Changeling still on the table for the future releases I'd hope they'd get one for Celtic Culture.

mighty zephyr
#

Well Sambrano wasn't a cultural consultant, they were a writer being forced to do cultural consultation

marble sorrel
#

That's fair.

mighty zephyr
#

Which was one of the big issues

marble sorrel
#

It would be really interesting to see them do stuff for changeling with how the fae stories have spread across the world. The Dullahan being a staple of both Non-Indigenous American mythology and Japanese Modern Fantasy, for example.

tough pebble
#

I guess the better perception is just the first part, then. The tribes as global cults is a pretty cool idea, it just sounds like something is missing now.

marble sorrel
#

My personal preference would have been to ironically make the fianna more fianna.

#

The cornerstone of the Fianna is they're not an ethnicity.

#

They're a warrior band people join.

mighty zephyr
#

All the same stuff is still completely doable.

marble sorrel
#

I'm not sure I'd say 'all the same stuff is completely doable'. There was casualties between editions. Like well...the aforementioned Fae Connection stuff. Or some clans not being playable any more.

nimble gale
#

I feel like writing out the entire get of fenris for being nazis when a major part of their character arc in the old versions was purging all their nazis was a bit unnecessary

#

like, change the tribal sigil, sure, it was a little sus before to understate

#

but stripping them as a player option was not the right choice imo

marble sorrel
#

Honestly I'm kinda surprised the Red Talons are still playable, being the Expressly Genocidal/Culling Humanity Clan.

nimble gale
#

you know, that's entirely legit, yeah

#

like, they're hte tribe that actually does put the fascism in eco-fascism

marble sorrel
#

Red Talon: "I like how that Anakin kid brought balance to the force. Before him: Many Jedi, Two Sith. After Anakin: Two Jedi, Two Sith. Balance Achieved."

nimble gale
#

(I also personally think it's weird that Spider is the tribal totem for the glass walkers now, but that's getting into metaplot reasons and W5's metaplot is basically an entirely different beast)

mighty zephyr
#

In 20th

#

Like them purging the Nazis was just revised

nimble gale
#

was it retconned or was it just not outright stated? I don't remember mention of them being nazis in W20.

rapid glacier
#

They were in a kind of civil war with the cult of heimdal, and in W5 it’s not outright stated but alluded to that the cult basically wins control of the tribe as a whole; if you were Get and didn’t go full Nazi, you bailed and chose a different tribe. Red Talon extremists also leave to join the Cult of Fenris after leaving the Garou Nation, leaving the ones doing a Soft Impergium in the tribe

marble sorrel
#

It seems like they mostly talk around the 'they were nazis' past in W20, as I can't find any corebook mention with 'they've had serious issues with racism and sexism in the past but it's not as prominent these days'.

image.png
#

Ah, found the thing on Swords of Heimdall in W20

#

Where yeah, it mentions they're seen even by other Get as extremist assholes

rapid glacier
#

Yeah they’re very Return with a V about awful shit, and in W5 they’re set up as ideological antagonists

mighty zephyr
#

The Swords of Heimdal aren't in 5th Farhenheit

marble sorrel
#

...I'm also not sure what a non-extremist Red Talon perspective is as their primary internal conflict is 'Should all humans be dead or should there only be as many of them as there are wolves?' both of which are explicitly genocidal.

mighty zephyr
#

The Cult were the extremist group of Wolf's tribe

rapid glacier
#

I mean they’re basically the same thing with a different name but I did mean the Cult with my example, my bad for not clarifying

mighty zephyr
#

Red Talons are mainly focused around a non-human focused form of environmentalism that seeks not to treat humanity as being above nature

#

And the signature red talon is a non genocidal Not!Greta Thunburg

rapid glacier
#

They’re mostly about stopping humanity from expanding into what’s left of the natural world

#

The ‘monsters in the woods’ is one interpretation I like for them

mighty zephyr
#

I also like them as someone who would rampage against factory farming

rapid glacier
mighty zephyr
#

Like a W5 red talon is against factory farming not because its just bad for the environment

#

But because those animals feel emotions, pain, suffering, and dont deserve to be slaughtered like that

rapid glacier
#

It’s been a while but do they also have the most Lupus-born population in the older editions like they do in W5?

mighty zephyr
#

They were exclusively lupus in legacy

#

You could not be homid or Metis

marble sorrel
#

As they hate humans too much to accept them as werewolves.

#

Hence my 'I'm shocked they're still playable when Get was cut'

mighty zephyr
#

The Red Talons add in a much more necessary POV and flavor than the Get did imo

rapid glacier
#

I feel like, and this is filtered through like two decades since I played the older version of WtA but the new perspectives on the tribes provide for more nuance in their interpretations

#

Where the old ones felt very, I dunno, specific?

marble sorrel
#

Silver Fangs still being about also surprises me but less due to 'tone' and more 'They're the Breeding Obsessed Clan, to the point of inbreeding, in an edition when Breeding is no longer a factor.'

#

Silver Fangs: "We shall maintain our power through our complicated historical bloodlines!"
2000 years later
Silver Fang:

#

It's sorta hard to maintain their focus on noble houses, lines of kings and inheritance of territory when W5 doesn't really have 'you have a lot of werewoof in your bloodline so you're more likely to be a werewolf'

mighty zephyr
#

I mean thats why the silver fangs are now simply the failed lords of a previous era, chosen because the burden of leadership can fall on anyone

#

Again, the cool and thematic part that just doesnt need the breeding lore

marble sorrel
#

...while I feel like it's a lot weaker without that part, as the breeding lore made their flaws a lot clearer.

#

I dunno, as someone who's from a country with a monarchy, taking away the inbred idiot who's in charge because of who his parents were aspect removes a lot of the interesting shitiness of them.

#

They become a more general 'Leader' clan without that touchstone, instead of the much more specific sort of 'kingly' they had before, which was very much about how the burden of leadership can't just fall on anyone.

mighty zephyr
#

Okay but you still have Jonas as the fallen king of the garou nation, fallen into insensible despair and having lost the wolf due to his catastrophic failure, and you have it without

  1. Making an entire tribe into eugenicists
  2. Making the "joke" of the Silver Fangs that theyre mentally handicapped and thus unfit for leadership
    And 3. Pointing to the average player and saying you have to be inbred to at least some extent to play this splat
#

And if you want the famial drama of noble titles and heridtary werewolf blood, you can! Just now you can do other things too in addition

marble sorrel
#

...okay, evidently I'm not getting my point across well. I'm going to take my leave for a bit.

mighty zephyr
#

Ok

marble sorrel
#

Silly Pondering on other things - Necromantic Mages and Vampires encountering a Dullahan Changeling and being unable to figure out why all their undead/ghost affecting tricks don't work on them.

#

"You're missing your head."
"Yeah, that's normal."

vast blaze
#

Stupid question, do Tremere have reduced costs towards learning new Disciplines or gaining new dots in Disciplines

mighty zephyr
#

Not other than stuff being in clan, no

#

why would theye?

marble sorrel
#

Tremere are no more or less capable of learning than other vampires as a whole.

#

...oooh, I really like the C20 version of Tale Crafting. Lets you do a Mini HeroQuest for a character and the capstone lets you do some very amusing 'I'm the GM now', at cost.

#

The Capstone, Stranger Than Fiction lets you introduce facts...as long as they've not already been established/don't directly contradict established reality.

#

The example is getting caught by the cops and going 'Hey, it's my cousin!' and the guy letting them off with a warning for trespassing because he's of course not going to arrest his cousin.

vast blaze
marble sorrel
vast blaze
#

Ah, XP

#

Was hoping I could get a discount with my freebies

#

Ah well

marble sorrel
#

I'd double check, I think clan disciplines are a bit cheaper in freebies too

mighty zephyr
#

I mean you can for Dominate, Auspex, and Thaumaturgy

dusky ledge
dusky ledge
marble sorrel
# 
It is important to note that Stranger Than Fiction is more like creatively editing the narrative of reality than outright re-writing it. The cantrip cannot simply “undo” actions that already occurred, nor can it contradict longestablished facts. If a changeling’s friend was taken away by the police, he could not use this cantrip to say no arrest happened… but he might be able to explain how, in the confusion, the police actually arrested his friend’s twin brother instead. If his mother died when he was young, he can’t suddenly bring her back to life by saying she actually just ran away, though he might be able to describe how an old key his mother left him just happens to fit the mysterious chest the group found among his mother’s old things. 

As a rule of thumb, the longer a fact has been established or the more commonly it’s encountered by others, the harder it is for this cantrip to twist it, since the magic relies in part on exploiting the gaps in what’s commonly known or expected. Thus the Storyteller should adjust the difficulty of this cantrip accordingly, or even declare that it cannot achieve the desired result.

This is very fun as a mix of narrative and mechanical power.

vast blaze
vast blaze
dusky ledge
#

OH this is for V20

vast blaze
#

Yeah lol

#

Sorry, should've specified

#

Seems best to invest some freebies into my Discipline now, it's cheaper to get it to level three at this point than it will ever be again

velvet sparrow
#

Yeah

#

Freebies are a flat cost for dot, they don't scale

velvet sparrow
vast blaze
#

...that's a very good point

#

I guess the question is, do I spend it to get my Auspex to 2, or my Lure of Flame to 3...

vast blaze
#

Odd question, what type of damage do swords deal in V20? Putting in the stats for one in my sheet because it isn't automated and idk what damage type to put

#

I assume Lethal?

marble sorrel
#

And unlike bullets, it remains lethal against vampires.

vast blaze
#

Right, thanks

#

And the difficulty is 6, right?

marble sorrel
#

By default, yeah.

#

A mastercraft sword can knock that down to 5

#

but you likely won't have that to start

vast blaze
#

Also, what do I put for armor stats?

#

What does "Chimerical" mean?

image.png
marble sorrel
#

It means 'you won't care about this right now'.

#

That is something purely for Changelings.

#

And people getting their ass beaten by changelings

#

Chimerical Damage is damage done in the Dreaming, the realm of imagination and stories.

#

Chimerical weapons do chimerical damage and chimerical armour blocks chimerical damage

#

For most people, getting taken out by Chimerical damage means you wake up several hours later very confused and with a headache.

#

It's actually a little scarier than that for werewolves of all groups.

#

As they can't regenerate Chimerical damage.

#

So while it's not lethal, it also bypasses a big defensive tool of theirs

#

So overall, you can safely ignore it

marble sorrel
# vast blaze Also, what do I put for armor stats?

Okay so your soak as vampire is:

Bashing: Stamina + Fortitude + Armour
Lethal: Stamina + Fortitude + Armour
Aggravated: Fortitude + Armour

Unless you're walking about in a bullet proof vest or chainmail you likely won't have armour.

#

So it will be just Stamina + Fortitude.

#

The reason Bashing and Lethal are seperate is that vampires can soak lethal but...not everyone can.

#

Without a spell to save his ass, a mage is very vulnerable to a bullet to the face as he can't soak lethal with stamina for example.

vast blaze
#

Right

nimble gale
#

Mage: "Hi! I'm in danger!"

vast blaze
#

What do you reckon I should set my Occult specialty to...?

#

I can't think of anything good

velvet sparrow
#

Well, why does your character know things about the Occult?

vast blaze
#

He's a Hunter

#

Got taken in by some when his family got slaughtered by some Sabbat shithead, and when the Sabbat killed his friends and then nearly killed him he got sired by a recently-awoken Elder that had once been a Hunter in the Dark Ages

#

Learned a lot from her during his time under her tutelage

velvet sparrow
#

Vampire specialty, then?

vast blaze
#

Maybe, but that feels redundant

#

Especially because my GM said I'd know a lot about vampire lore already just being at Occult 4

#

Maybe a specialty in the Sabbat

#

...yeah, especially since he has a major grudge against them for killing his family, killing his friends, and killing him

velvet sparrow
#

I feel like that would be a Politics specialty, not an Occult one

vast blaze
#

...mmm, true

#

Maybe "Obscure Arcana"?

#

Like, knowledge of the smaller, more disparate tidbits of WoD

#

Or maybe "Eldritch Arcana"

#

Knowledge of the more... Lovecraftian tidbits of WoD

#

...actually what are the more Lovecraftian/cosmic horror bits of WoD

nimble gale
#

Werewolf and Mage, mostly, assuming oWoD

#

right, just read context--yeah most of hte lovecraftian stuff is in the more triat-focused splats, especially where the wyrm is concerned in the modenr day

vast blaze
#

Wish there was more like

#

Cthulhu-y stuff

#

Like, right proper entities from realities so divorced from World of Darkness that they're utterly incomprehensible and just fundamentally don't follow the same laws of reality

rapid glacier
#

I think some of the more existential stuff in Mage is supposed to be like that but I’m not a Mage-knower

marble sorrel
#

Hmmm...pondering how 5 is going to handle changeling. Mostly the lack of a 'fucks your life up from within' thing that works like Rage/Paradox/Hunger.

#

Banality exists but it's very external so wouldn't map well.

#

And Dreaming fae doesn't really have anything like Clarity that lost has.

#

As well...being deeply connected to your fey self is expressly good in the setting.

#

Also thr fact that a fae low in glamour is...promoted to make the world a better place. It's not like vampire there where you're a predator. Changeling gain glamour primarily from helping people overcome the banality of thier lives.

#

Inspiring someone to take up a hobby or giving someone enough breathing room they're not working 3 jobs just to survive.

#

My biggest fear is that they'll just go 'fuck it, basing it off Lost instead' as that does more naturally interlink mechanically with how 5 has gone.

#

But would also be the abject coward way to handle it, considering WoD 5 at least tries generally to be a successor to previous oWoD editions.

fading kettle
#

Hmmmm
I have a question
I’m currently running a Mage V20 game, and i’ve had the idea’ after reading this essay https://slowlorispress.com/post/742932982368698368/how-to-play-the-revolution

To apply it to the campaign
One of the problems I have is that I feel (but I’m not the only one) that WoD tend to go antithetical to what Mage aim to do or feel. And, as a GM, I feel constrained while designing encounters, situattions and such.
So I got inspired by this essay, because I find the core idea can really resonate well with the ideas of personal perceptions of realities, magic shenanigans, and it works also thematically with players being on the fringe of the Traditions and the Technocracy and their conflict.

So, my question is: what are the pitfalls to avoid with Playing the Revolution in Mage ?

Zedeck Siew's Writing Hours
How To Play The Revolution

So: I do not like the idea of TTRPGs making formal mechanics designed to incentivise ethical play.

But, to be honest, I do not like the idea of any single game pushing any particular formal mechanics about ethical play at all.

So here I am, trying to think through the reasons why, and proposing a solution. (Sort of. A procedure, really.)

+

Assumptions:...

Tumblr ·
marble sorrel
#

...okay so reading over this, I have zero clue what they're talking about.

#

Can you provide some details on how you feel constrained?

fading kettle
#

Hmmm
The rules feels bloated, in directions that feel unnecessary for the point of Mage. Like, i can understand Do for the Akashics. But, why are there detailed rules for dirty fighting, martial arts, gun firing. There’s even a scaling damage rule for collision damage. Things like that. I don’t feel they add substance to the game, just that they are there because it’s a relic of 90’s conception of what rpg rules needed to be

marble sorrel
#

...I mean, it's a game where many of your main antagonists have guns. I can very much see the need for gun rules.

#

But...I mean, at that point you're likely at 'go play a different game' like a PBTA or Forged In The Dark based game. Both of those have some decent Urban Fantasy variants.

fading kettle
#

Yeah
But we’ve had two of the pcs punch each other because rp reasons, and it lasted 30+ minutes because armor and dodge and damages rules lead to no damage being inflicted

fading kettle
# marble sorrel But...I mean, at that point you're likely at 'go play a different game' like a P...

Yeah, but I’ve not yet found a game with magic rules that do the same kind of creative shenanigans that Mage do. I really like the Spheres, Paradox, and all that.
On the other hand, the other players, while they have different perceptions and problems with the rules, still want to play it.
I find it sad to say i’ve had more fun while running encounters and dismissing many rules, just to make the game more fluid.

marble sorrel
#

Ironically, I don't like Paradox.

#

I think it's got way too little bite. XD

#

It needs to be meaner

#

But yeah...I mean, to go with your example there's the usual fallback of 'Does rolling for this change how things play out? If not, why are you rolling?'

#

If two player characters want to get in a punch up and 'who wins' isn't a major factor, leave that as just fluff.

fading kettle
#

Well, the second time they punched, it mattered, and it lasted quite a while too.

marble sorrel
#

I'll admit, I'm not sure how it took half an hour. There is...4 rolls there.

-Attack
-Dodge (If he tried for it, that's not by default)
-Damage
-Soak
fading kettle
#

Because there were multiple rounds of punching each other, with all 4 steps each time (Because Snake Step for both characters and special underskin armor for another)

#

On the other hand, a mafia vampire npc who was supposed to be a little dangerous got wiped in like one attack, max two without magic, just with Integrated Claws.

mighty zephyr