#World of Darkness

1 messages · Page 41 of 1

rapid glacier
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Maybe IRL but definitely not in WoD

marble sorrel
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The Marriage of Sun and Moon (Level Five) —
This mighty Gift allows a shapeshifter to very briefly pass his soul from the care of the Moon into that of
the Sun, or vice-versa. A Lune and a servant of Helios teach this Gift.
System: The player spends two points of Gnosis. For the rest of the scene, a shapeshifter who is normally vulnerable to silver becomes vulnerable to gold instead, and vice-versa. Characters who are vulnerable to both silver and gold (such as Mokolé), or those who take similar damage from a substance over than silver or gold cannot benefit from this Gift.

Very high level but man that's a good gift if you can get it. XD

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'Not give a shit about silver unless it came from an ambush' is very nice

clear delta
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Overcharge corpse eating vermin

rapid glacier
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It’s like renown 9 or something insane but once you get there HOOO BOY

marble sorrel
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Not fancy but man, that is just a disgustingly good effect.

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rapid glacier
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I wonder how a werebat would be viewed now that Bat is the BSD patron spirit

marble sorrel
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Oh, they still are in V20. The bats are considered extinct because Bat went batshit (Heh) becuase the Garou were genociding his children and joined the wyrm.

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And the Garou did what the Garou do whenever someone is having psychological problems - They genocided the rest of werebats because their totem had gone mad.

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Garou - The cause of, and solution to, all of Gaia's problems.

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The book just also included some nice 'Hey, how would you include these if you wanted to in a game?'

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Which does mean at this point the Garou have genocided like...2 different Australian shapechanger groups...possibly three.

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Bloody Garou, stay out of Aus.

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Garou: "The world is increasingly poluted, the servants of the wyrm are outwitting us and we can't breed!"
Also the Garou: "So we genocided Gaia's midwives, spymasters and cleansers of corruption. I'm sure this wasn't a bad decision."

rapid glacier
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Gaia’s greatest hammers decided the rest of the world was a nail

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In W5 , the lore bits in the sidebars make it pretty clear the wolves aren’t the right tool for the job, just the last one still standing. It’s almost outright hostile toward the Litany in some sections, making sure as new characters you’re supposed to learn all this and go “what the fuck what was their problem”

marble sorrel
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Yeah, W20 is very much set up as a 'People who've been born into a hostile culture trying to be better than it' thing with how it treats Garou history/the clan divisions.

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Likely why the two 'expansion' groups are the multi-shapechanger alliance that recently formed in Africa and the Beast Courts, both of which have a more holistic and less 'every problem looks like a nail' perspective.

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I do find one of the 'possible ways you can play one of the lost shapechanger types' very funny.

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Which is literally 'The Weaver decided he wanted shapechangers of his own and Jurrassic Parked them from fossil and DNA records'

rapid glacier
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Oh those are in W5, sort of; Pentex has Mockeries than can be lizard shifters

marble sorrel
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Ooof, yeah. That's a bit darker than the W20 version, which are presented as fully heroic still.

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As the weaver is still the enemy of the Wyrm

rapid glacier
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I bet there’s room for redeeming a Mockery, it’s not like all of them are psychopaths serving the Wyrm, but I bet that’s not the common approach

marble sorrel
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The Garou have a hard time dealing peacefully with their friends, yeah, I think dealing peacefully and reconciliatorily with their enemies is generally off the table.

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...oh, hey. Werefoxes, Wereravens and Werebears lose honor for not defending helpless humans, unlike Werewolves. That's intriguing.

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So you are actively incentivised to step in and try to Help Normal Humans in a way where werewolves don't care if they live or die.

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Werefox: "I became famed due to demonstrating my 'Ignoring strong feelings of vengeance and hatred', as that shows my mastery of my ability to focus on Gaia's goals over my own personal ones."
Garou: "Wow, that sounds like Coward Talk."

marble sorrel
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...I should stop pondering about how I'd write SI differently. XD

nimble gale
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Do it then run a v20 with it :V

high current
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disappointed nobody mentioned The Notorious Vampiric Lawn Chair smh vvvSip

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Life 5/Matter 5, objectively vulgar regardless of paradigm, turns the target into a lawn chair(or any other object tbh), said in M20 to have caused one of the Massasa Wars because of how insulted the Tzimisce in question was at being turned into a commode by a Hermetic Master vvvSip

marble sorrel
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Mind you if you're a Tzimisce or have Protean you can Un-Lawn-Chair yourself.

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You know, minus your dignity.

nimble gale
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I was thinking more of lower/single sphere effects for the question tbh

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stuff more likely for a baseline PC to be able to cast

high current
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Forces 2 or 3, bend sunlight into their face if it's day or turn moonlight into sunlight at night

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Or just set them on fire

clear delta
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Can't you use life to have vermin swarm and bite the vampire?

mighty zephyr
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Yes, wouldn't do much

marble sorrel
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Vampires are kinda resistant to minor bites and scratches. Like, they wouldn't like it but they'd likely soak it pretty decently.

mighty zephyr
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You could use life and matter to try and siphon the blood out of their body

graceful saffron
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All vampires in New York, with the first case being a newcomer... so the symptoms are occuring unevenly.

marble sorrel
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...dammit, I tell myself 'I won't do my own spin on the SI storyline' and now I'm part way through working out specifics ;-;

high current
graceful saffron
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Or that whatever coverup is happening through the Court didn't reach them fast enough.

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Human blood being the Vitae vector, and animal blood repressing it, does seem delightful.

upbeat forge
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Definitely not with a Forces 3 effect

upbeat forge
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Guaranteed grave wounds

high current
# upbeat forge I'm not sure you can turn moonlight into sunlight like that

according to M20 How Do You Do That, Forces 3 can turn fire into wind, so in theory it could turn one form of light into another kind of light
granted, a few pages later there's a bit about conjuring sunlight, and notes that generating light ex nihilo wouldn't generate actual sunlight, you'd need either Forces 4/Prime 2/Life 3/Matter 2 to generate blasts of sunlight that can burn vampires, or Forces 5/Prime 4(with a scientific approach) to reproduce sunlight in ever respect(optional Spirit 5 if the ST rules that sunlight is a manifestation of divine grace), but these approaches are all generating light instead of turning one form of light into another rooThink

mighty zephyr
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HDYDYT is historically not very good

marble sorrel
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I'd likely personally rule that sunlight as far as vampires are concerned has a divine aspect rather than just being a property of the light but I can also see a GM ruling otherwise.

high current
# mighty zephyr HDYDYT is historically not very good

fair, the few times ive run M20 hdydt always leaves me going 'why the fuck does this contradict the core book'
but still, Forces 3 is 'transmute minor forces', i think the big issue is just whether or not one can simply turn something into sunlight or if it would be a divine thing, and that's up to the GM

mighty zephyr
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I usually lean on the vampire side of things since I think the deck is usually stacked against rhem anyway

mighty zephyr
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So in that way its being consistent

high current
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fair

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new White Wolf please do not get Brucato involved in M5 i beg you

mighty zephyr
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Hes very retired I think

clear delta
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Thank gods

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Anyway, in mtaw, what would a warp train and passengers leaving it look like under mage site?

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Do the extra years get counted if you measure a former passengers age?

marble sorrel
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I think I'd allow Forces + Spirit to get you some True Sunlight, if you invoke like Helios or another big sun spirit to call power from them.

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As I know Werewolves get true Counts as Real Sunlight from Sun Spirits

nimble gale
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using sun spirits to get it, I'd allow spirits, yeah

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or forces + prime if you're just MANIFESTING THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SU

marble sorrel
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I have also found likely the single least 'able to read the room' thing in all of the W20 line.

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White Wolf: "You know what humans would find comical? People with fox ears and tails. No, I have not been on the internet ever. Why do you ask?"

marble sorrel
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Also: Important Question - Does oWoD have any stats for dinosaurs outside of the werecroc 'be kinda like a dinosaur' stat mod form?

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Definitely not trying to abuse game systems.

hybrid dock
nimble gale
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... I think they do, actually, there was an adventure where garou went back to the dragon king era

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ah, yeah, war of dragons ins hattered dreams, lemme see if there's dinosaur stats

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damn, no outright dino stats there

clear delta
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Are there dragons?

nimble gale
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Nah, the dragons/dragon kings refers to dinosaurs in this case (and dinosaur shapeshfiters/the precursors to the modern mokole)

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random thought: corax actually have a better claim to being weredinosaurs than mokole do. this is a technocratic psyop.

rapid glacier
# clear delta Are there dragons?

weirdly enough I'm asking a new group for W5 this very question and the correct answer is the opposite of whatever conclusion they come to, followed immediately by being berated by Horned Serpent

marble sorrel
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The reason for it - Kitsune can make paper versions of any natural animal.

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hybrid dock
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Omg

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I love them

nimble gale
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a lot of changing breeds get fun tricks in W20

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I'm especially fond of the wizard werespider's capstone, which lets you make a dex + occult (diff 6) roll and spend 3 gnosis to, uh

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turn off any magical power with a level or dot rating of 5 or below.

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awakened magic? fera gifts? vampiric disciplines? demonic lores? wraith arcanoi? shit, it doesn't specify but it may even work on hunter edges. Dot or level of 5 or below? shut it down.

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"Hey archmage that sure is a big buff you have going on. Would be a shame if I were to spin a web about it."

marble sorrel
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Who would win:

-Archmage of Fate and Time, Awakening God of a New World
-One Webby Boi
marble sorrel
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Hmmm...okay looks like I'm going to need to invent these dinosaur stats myself. XD

mighty zephyr
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Probably hollow earth stuff has dinosaurs stats

somber scarab
marble sorrel
somber scarab
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Oh edges also include like normal guns and cars, heh

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Wait it depends on which edition you're playing

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In the versions with the Imbued it's all somewhat supernatural, in versions with Witch-Hunters it's split between Assets (pretty mundane), Aptitudes (sorta weird), and Endowments (pretty supernatural)

marble sorrel
sacred viper
rapid glacier
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Werewolf without cocaine sounds boring

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Mentally more stable maybe but definitely more boring

marble sorrel
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That description of Demon seems off. Demons are big into examining their relationship with pain. Torment is a stat for them, after all. XD

worthy sundial
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this might be a bit abt chronicles

marble sorrel
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Maybe!

sacred viper
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Nah its refering to the Fallen

nimble gale
marble sorrel
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...I wonder if Shield of Gaia can affect Technocrat Hypertech. As it's 'pick a type of technology, you're immune to all effects of it'.

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Like if they could pick 'Androids' and laugh at HIT Marks.

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As it's mage magic but it's still the technology, that technology is the form the magic takes.

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I'd personally likely go 'yes but you need to go more specific than just Hypertech. You could become immune to specific categories of hypertech like Robotics, Mind Control Rays or Railguns, not 'all hypertech'.

rapid glacier
hybrid dock
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cracking my knuckles
alright!

time to read Deviant

clear delta
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Yes!

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Yes! Yes!

mighty zephyr
hybrid dock
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hehehehehe

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lets see if i can engage in my favorite oc design (torturing an angelic being)

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its a classic of mine, and deviant seems perfect for it

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fascinating

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well thats certainly a neat way to do the subtypes

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hybrid dock
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👀 👀 👀

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clear delta
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Okay, warp corp in cofd
Train stations that are strangely fast
The trips feel like a strange dream, somewhat nightmarish.
It's actually a trip in through another dimension, with workers ensuring dangers do not damage the train, and the passengers have no significant effects from it

mighty zephyr
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Also tangent

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I got obsessed lightly with whoever made the joke of a Beast going "I'm da king of da highway"

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And I realized

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This is a valid horror

hybrid dock
heady kestrel
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Yeah

hybrid dock
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sinister car

mighty zephyr
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I feel like this video doesnt showcase it well

hybrid dock
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actually one of the beasts in the game im in is a robot rhino who specialized in getting people into high speed and dangerous chases

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on the topic of being da king of da highway

mighty zephyr
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Since the comments are right that having a professional rally driver behind the wheel makes the enemies feel goonish

hybrid dock
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oh yeah im given to understand that the horror game is like
mainly about a car following you

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which is good horror

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...shit actually lemme see how much this game costs im almost tempted by it

mighty zephyr
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Its good

hybrid dock
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oh theres a demo nice

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anyway back to reading deviant while that installs

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i am enjoying :3

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i cant wait to write some unethical shit for an oc

nimble gale
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Hell yeah unethical shit

mighty zephyr
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@hybrid dock clearly this is the beast who helped with your beasts devouring

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As seen here:

heady kestrel
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Because Karen is a tyrant and a moose I have suggested that she could stand in the middle of the road and force people to avoid hitting her in order to feed

hybrid dock
hybrid dock
daring hazel
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Changeling the Lost character who comes back and finds that their fetch has gone on and lived a better life than they would have

nimble gale
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Not that uncommon but always excellent when it happens

clear delta
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Marry the fetch and share in the success

mighty zephyr
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Changeling who comes back and realizes their fetch got hit by a car Day 1

clear delta
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The probing of kevin is fun, I like Big D reaching out to Kevin

mighty zephyr
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Driving in my car right after some booze

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Hey that bump
It looks like a moose

hybrid dock
daring hazel
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Wooh!

marble sorrel
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I am doing Silly Things blending together notes from the Society of Ether mage book and Changing Breeds for Werewolf.

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Kitsune can learn Linear Magic. Society of Ether notes that there are plenty of sorcerers who see Linear magic the same way Sons of Ether/Technocracy sees Awakened magic.

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So I've got a Kitsune who's got Shapechanger Magic and 'oh yeah, I also have Weird Supertech too' 😛

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Which to be fair: Weavertech exists, so that's not out of theme for WoD Shapechangers

hybrid dock
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okay ive gotten through chapter 1

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still pondering how best to make a fucked up angel, with the various clades

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but i shall have to wait until character creation to see what kind of options i got

mighty zephyr
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So angel shoved in your chest surgically

hybrid dock
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oh thats very very tempting

mighty zephyr
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Honey im home type shit

hybrid dock
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its also tempting to think about what angel is even being used to refer to

supernatural forces from the realm Aether?
Things from the god machine?
Something entirely different?

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YEAHHHH

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YEAHHHH

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YEAHHHHHHH

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tempting to just name them Diligence

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there's a lot to play with

hybrid dock
marble sorrel
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This man canonically knows more than the entire Second Inquisition.

BOLyCL6.png
hybrid dock
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holy shit

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SATAN

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IT WAS HIM ALL ALONG

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THAT FUCKER

mighty zephyr
hybrid dock
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Ophanim you mean? or something else

mighty zephyr
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Yeah

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Mobile

hybrid dock
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mhm mhm no problem

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cus yeah, theres seraphim and cherubim in Aether
but no ophanim

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so theres room there!!!!

mighty zephyr
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Someone took its wings and ripped them off and shoved the many eyed wheel into your fucking chest

hybrid dock
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ophanim are awesome

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everyone loves ophanim-lmao yeah

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i will say voy
i do think "uncontrollable wing growth" is a really really fun motif

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but yes

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i do love that shit

mighty zephyr
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And its a valid scar!

hybrid dock
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IT IS? FUCK YEAH!!!!

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HELL YEAH

mighty zephyr
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Slice those fuckers off daily

marble sorrel
# hybrid dock IT WAS HIM ALL ALONG

The funny thing is just how many bits in this are dangerously close but just a hair off.

Like he's gotten the Lasombra and the Giovanni mixed up as there is a 'Vampire Nun - <Clan> - Vatican' link but he's grabbed the wrong clan. Likewise he's listed the Temple of Set and the Temple of Set (Haiti) as separate groups, which is true. The Settites in Haiti are part of a different settite bloodline that doesn't get along with the main one.

hybrid dock
hybrid dock
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extreme wing overgrowth is honestly a really fun one

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eyah

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yeah

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augh i cant wait to continue reading theres some good shit in here

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i cant wait to write some unethical horrible dehumanization

mighty zephyr
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Nick technically has an angel in his nervous system

hybrid dock
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oh its an angel?

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i thought it was just infrastructure

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(also love you nick)

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(nick <3)

mighty zephyr
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Its essentially both, since angels and infrastructure are basically interchangeable

hybrid dock
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oh are they?

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i suppose angels are a kind of infrastructure

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i just imagined angels are like

the really expensive important kind

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and then sometimes you just have "the weird thing made of gears thats invisible and hangs from the ceiling and speaks random numbers that could be translated into stock prices in 7 years"

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oh man i love Scars

mighty zephyr
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I mean they're machines made by the god machine

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The difference between a factory and a drone that works in it is largely semantics

hybrid dock
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i suppose?

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theres some important distinctions

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but yes, in the end its all infrastructure

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the phrase "Designed like a Prayer first and a Body second" has entered my brain

hybrid dock
marble sorrel
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Glass Walker 'Control Complex Machine' must make them a real menace for technocracy teams.

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'No no. That HIT Mark is listening to me now'

hybrid dock
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Lmaooooo

short quiver
nimble gale
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Glass Walkers are my favorite tribe for a good few reasons

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one of them being they're so very close to being reasonable, but then they pull some heinous shit to remind you they're still garou

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Inf act a friend of mine is running a solo W20 game for me where I'm playing a metis glasswalker philodox... who is currently in law school. Her dad runs a corporate/environmental law firm in Las Vegas. (Her mom smuggles guns into and out of the US and is a silent strider.) Once that gets rolling it's probably going to be fun.

hybrid dock
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OOOO

marble sorrel
nimble gale
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her metis mutation is albinism! Which you might think isn't that bad as far as metis deformities go but

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uh

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gestures at the entire state of nevada.

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it's literally just Sin and Desert

hybrid dock
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gotta say

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i do appreciate deviant for just having a whole section of "yeah turns out living as a weird deviant on the streets is fucking hard"

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didnt see that sort of thing in beast or demon, i suppose because in both of those you either have a preestablished life you can just continue to live, or can pick up new pre-established lives

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deviants have no such luxuries

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so, i appreciate "yeah even a fake id has limits."

mighty zephyr
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Yeah that's why Nick is just homeless

hybrid dock
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yeah

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it seems like a common path

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ill have to check how scars work but man im excited to construct a fucked up lil angel lady

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scars seem like a really interesting mechanic

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im into them at least from whats being pitched

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ill have to see how its executed

hybrid dock
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fuck thats actually really funny, as a counterpart to the way loyalty touchstones can swap

image.png image.png
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the guy youve been gunning revenge for starts to not suck

marble sorrel
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But what if he continues to suck but he sucks in different ways now? 😛

hybrid dock
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I mean
bites lip I do like a man who is wretched…

…man it’s late for me

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oh what the heck stability is a separate health bar?
huh

worthy sundial
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thats p common w chronicles stuff aint it?

hybrid dock
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Maybe?

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I haven’t read that many works though

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So if it is common it’s I guess…something I haven’t seen much of before

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Just straight up it’s got a bashing, lethal, and aggravated version for each instability tick

worthy sundial
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ohh thats what u meant
i was thinkin something closer to like werewolf balance

hybrid dock
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Mm

somber scarab
clear delta
clear delta
clear delta
hybrid dock
hybrid dock
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Holy shit getting to keep a virtue or vice for just a little while is a merit???

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That’s genius

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YOU CAN GET FIGHT FLIGHT FREEZE AS A MERIT???

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Also oh my god “armed and extremely dangerous” is a hilariously perfect merit

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👀 👀 👀

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sacred viper
hybrid dock
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Hahahahaha

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I do love the qashmallim

hybrid dock
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Girl who can only speak in Bible verses but also hasn’t memorized the Bible…

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Also providing an otherworldly connection to Aether seems funny

hybrid dock
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Alrighty I’ve skimmed through deviant!!!!

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I’m excited to create a blorbo

hybrid dock
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holy SHIT guys

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heady kestrel
high current
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wild vampire/werewolf idea: somehow a bunch of strix/apillu/ghosts/demons/banes/whatever manage to sync up efforts and start possessing a bunch of people en masse, players have to figure out how to banish/kill all of the offending entities(or at least most of them)
see also: Peacemaker s1 vvvSip

marble sorrel
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Random question for just general chatter - If you're playing a vampire, how do they normally feed/what is their general method? Stalking people in alleyways, charming people, blood dolls etc?

marble sorrel
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...vague pondering: Do v5 Carmarilla still have Amaranth as incredibly illegal?

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As well...the Assamites joined them. They've got a lot of cultural traditions and rituals that involve it.

graceful saffron
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They are family, or trusted community members of something like a hospital or hostel or hotel,

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and feed from the occupants.

worthy sundial
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tho if by amaranth we mean diablerie, then yeag itd be illegal

graceful saffron
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I assume its still illegal largely because of power dynamics, so Assamites worth a great deal to the status quo, or willing to do it behind closed doors the way Big C does it,

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are likely illegal-but-tolerated.

worthy sundial
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ah its basically illegal unless the diablerie target is outlawed

image0.jpg
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so essentially legally-concerned assamites would have to get a blood hunt going to make it happen

nimble gale
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shitty assamite keeps accusing kindred of using the internet to get free blood hunts

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big 'what were YOU doinga t the devil's sacrament' energy

mighty zephyr
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They're also Banu Haqim, not Assamites

clear delta
worthy sundial
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well no u still do

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its just a question of will u get blood hunted for it or not

clear delta
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I meant worry about legal repercussions from people seeing black aura on you

worthy sundial
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well i think that depends on whetehr they know abt it happening during the blood hunt or not

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cuz like aiui the aura doesnt rly saw how it happened, just that u did it

clear delta
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Okay, but if it's legally allowed during blood hunts, you can say it was from a blood hunt or maybe it gets disseminated in vampire communications in the city
Because there's no point in making it legal if you have no defense when people see the aura

worthy sundial
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right but the question is trust

orchid void
graceful saffron
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There used to be ways to hide auras, which I recall were pretty common amongst Elders, largely because the older and more established you are, the more diablerie is a guideline, not a rule.

clear delta
marble sorrel
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Does make me really surprised they joined them considering 'Drinking Vampires Who Are Assholes' is a major cultural thing for them/they literally just got it back. XD

marble sorrel
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...is also likely another reason that Aininur wouldn't work in V5. Being a Moral Diablerist. Which v5...doesn't really allow, as Diablare is bad for the humanity regardless of your personal moral system. XD

mighty zephyr
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I mean yeah

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eating souls is sorta categorically bad

marble sorrel
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...ironically, I think destroying an actual spirit is a lot less bad for your humanity score. XD

mighty zephyr
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That's just murder

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You aren't eating a soul and shoving it into yourself

marble sorrel
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I dunno. I really don't know how that gets squared with the Judges of Caine being A) Prolific performers of Amaranth B) For a long time, one of the more moral groups of vampires about, following the Law of Protection.

mighty zephyr
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I feel like you don't square the judges of caine with the fact of that, not the other way around

marble sorrel
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...huh?

nimble gale
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...Query.

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Do the altnerate paths of morality/roads exist in V5 or no

mighty zephyr
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You have convictions

marble sorrel
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They don't, no. You've got Convictions and such but no matter what your personal morality is, Amaranth is always the super turbo sin against it

nimble gale
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because a lot of why the assamites/banu haqim were generally more together/ethical/moral was because a lot of them followed the Path of... blood, isn't it? Or other, similar paths.

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where diablerie was not on the hierarchy of sins

marble sorrel
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Path of Blood, yeah.

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Or one of the variations of Path of the Heavens where it wasn't in the sin list.

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Like the one Aininur follows is a lot more focused on Balance of Nature and Justice.

image.png
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(Though she's reflavoured this one to a Zoastranism theme rather than druidism. It just was the one who's sins most aligned with the ethics she was raised with.)

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...snrk

marble sorrel
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As one of their big sins was refusing to commit amaranth on a vampire who deserves it.

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So if you make your convictions related to the path of blood you lose humanity if you do amaranth a guy and you lose humanity if you don't.

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I'd ask how vampires in Alamut function but since v5 took it out of commission, I guess they don't. XD

high current
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paths do exist in V5, they're in the Sabbat book

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they still mostly just function the same as Humanity though, i think

mighty zephyr
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They're not for players, they're just examples to put Sabbat NPCs on

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Paths are only really able to be done with convictions

marble sorrel
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I'd need to check again but iirc the Sabbat one doesn't have enough 'sins' to use paths as a humanity replacement even if you wanted to.

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As they're just Examples, not a fully fleshed out system

mighty zephyr
#

You only need 3 convictions, so it does.

#

Because that's not how Humanity works.

marble sorrel
#

Yeah but I mean it's still just 'You're on Humanity just with specific convictions'. Which sorta runs into issues with every path that conflicted with the path of humanity.

mighty zephyr
#

You still have to deal with your monstrous nature and don't get to just ignore it, yes, but you can still completely RP that you're on a path and not worry about it in most instances of play.

marble sorrel
#

Sure but well...as mentioned, the Path of Blood literally wouldn't function in v5. XD

#

Which feels like an issue when the guys who were the primary followers of it are also a mainline clan these days.

mighty zephyr
#

I mean it's not really an issue since that doesn't exist anymore

#

Diablerie is metaphysically bad for you, easy.

#

You can do the entire rest of it

#

If you really really really really want to be a Serial Diablerist But Be A Good Guy there's a 5 dot loresheet ability that lets you better tank Diablerie humanity loss iirc

#

Yeah, there's two.
One for Hecata for eating other Hecata, and Starek, who lets you avoid the automatic penalty if you eat someone of higher Status.

#

You still do the rolls for both however.

#

Because eating souls is Still Bad For You.

clear delta
#

Voy, I don't think Ikiryo

#

Is arguing against it being immoral

#

And instead about vampires who traditionally practice it

#

Being impossible

patent stirrupBOT
#

Voy it relay sounds like your arguing with some one else and just not relay paying attnetion to what Ikiryo is saying

clear delta
#

When they were an element of the setting, and this was a part of banu haqim culture

mighty zephyr
#

I fully understand what Iki is saying.

#

I'm also saying they just kinda aren't a thing in the setting anymore.

nimble gale
#

Frankly, the more I learn about V5, the more I am convinced it isn't actually vampire the masquerade and should not be discussed as such, but is a different, third thing to either VtM or VtR.

mighty zephyr
#

It really isn't.

clear delta
#

World of darkness
3!

#

Electric boogaloo

patent stirrupBOT
#

Th way you talk about it it makes it sound liek it vary much is

Voy the Nelson Boy ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696306100715550 message) It really isn't.

nimble gale
#

like, ultimately other than vague backstory bits and names, and sometimes not even the, it seems to have very little to do with what vtm offered to players for themes, and is a much more narrowly focused game with a very different mode of play from what vtm offered

#

I'm not trying to judge v5 as 'bad', but it is not what it is advertised to me, a longtime fan of owod

#

And I guess you can call me a grog if you want, but like. I do not get VtM vibes from V5. I don't think I like the vibes I get, but i've only read the core book through maybe once, so I wouldn't want to judge the whole thing on that, but if you offered me the choice between V20 and V5 I'd pick V20 and I think I'd be happy with that choice, because V20 has the actual vibes I'd like from a game called Vampire the Masquerade

patent stirrupBOT
#

It's like the McPizza. wich is popular enough to still hvae one store. but also your not going to McDonnalds for pizza

hybrid dock
#

Y’know what I’m gonna do

#

I’m gonna read werewolf next

mighty zephyr
#

Didn't you already?

#

I thought you did

radiant marsh
#

Which Werewolf?

mighty zephyr
#

Forsaken 2e, presumably

radiant marsh
#

Ah

mighty zephyr
#

considering Karen's trend of CofD diving

radiant marsh
#

The BEST Werewolf

grave gulch
#

Im the best werewolf wixelsSit

#

Fox

#

Werefox?

#

Just fox

#

I'm the best fox

hybrid dock
#

I have not actually read werewolf lmao

hybrid dock
#

But I’m excited to!

high current
#

WtF2e is great

hybrid dock
#

I’m quite excited for it

orchid void
#

oh @hybrid dock when ur done with werewolf remind me and i'll show u Missy

hybrid dock
#

omg

#

ill make sure to

graceful saffron
#

I really like how Diablerie is handled in VtR 2e.

#

"Don't do it" says every Elder who does it, sometimes as their only form of feeding.

I like the distinct sense that its a question of power, and who power grants "personhood" to!

#

There was a definite loop in 1e where you diablerized an Elder at some point to boost the party, but 2e made that feel less... obligatory, in a way?

#

(It was never obligatory, it just happened in a lot of games)

#

Its still treated as a Breaking Point for every vampire who does it, to my knowledge, but the penalties are more subtle.

I don't think there is a work around? I will have to check.

marble sorrel
#

Hmmm...what's people's FAVORITE rituals? Any edition, Vampire/Werewolf/Mage/Demon all valid. Rituals in games tend to get a lot less showing than on-the-fly effects.

graceful saffron
graceful saffron
marble sorrel
#

Nice. I'm a big fan of Return the Heart, forcing a vampire to deal with all his long discarded moral pangs and shame.

graceful saffron
#

How does that one work?

marble sorrel
#

They're forced to deal with being humanity 9 for a while. It doesn't force them to be moral but they get all the shame and psychological unpleasantness of the sins they do as if they were.

graceful saffron
#

Oooo, how horrid. And mechanically interesting.

marble sorrel
#

So a vampire who's long ago accepted murder is fine will find himself shaking and retching over a body

patent stirrupBOT
#

Ours would have to be the Rite of Pants from W:tA, what ever it's real name is.

#

we had a Gallard who we never got a full session in with who had used it at game staart to bind her instrament to herself

nimble gale
#

Ritual of Dedication IIRC

#

also it's only really a ritual in the game sense (though it is a ritual in the flavor sense, but they wouldn't call it that) but basically any time the Technocracy calls down orbital artillery, though specifically the week of nightmares, is probably mine

marble sorrel
#

Technos disputing the term Rod from God as they don't want the Celestial Chorus getting ideas.

nimble gale
#

lmao

hybrid dock
#

”DO NOT CALL IT THAT”

graceful saffron
marble sorrel
#

That's cool

graceful saffron
#

Yeah! Its not a ritual you use,

#

but its a really cool "ritual" you have to perform.

marble sorrel
#

Yeah. Rituals are great for adding flavour to the world.

#

I also really just like Santify the Haven because it lets you make a Cool House

graceful saffron
#

I really enjoy how you seem to play Vampire, Ikiryo. Very slice of horror, very Character driven.

marble sorrel
#

Honestly if I had my way? I'd decouple rituals from blood sorcery more. As it would allow for a lot more specific tricks that are not tied to being a wizard vampire.

#

Sorta like how you don't need to be a sorcerer werewolf to do the rite of pants

graceful saffron
#

I nod I did some of that with VtR 2e and certain "specific" Disciplines and Merits.

nimble gale
#

let people have more Wierd Niche Powers

graceful saffron
#

Agreed! You have to mix 1e and 2e VtR to get really weird, but I love player expression when there are tons of options.

heady kestrel
#

Chronicles Of darkness idea

Hunter Conspiracy that was founed by Freed Huntsmen(As in, Huntsmen that got their hearts back and needed to find something to do with their lives)

have them specialize in Goblins and other "Hedge and arcadian creatures that got onto earth", but willing to hunt whatever as long as it catches their fancy
The Huntsmen teach members of the conspiracy their funky Arcadian fighting techniques, but tend to only show up personally for the really big hunts and are otherwise weird inhuman quest givers

marble sorrel
#

Thinking about the 'let everyone have rituals' thing, I feel like a chunk of things that right now are Sorcery Paths or odd ranks of Disciplines could become rituals.

#

Like I love Vicissitude and I wouldn't want the entire discipline to go away but stuff like 'This takes several hours but you can reshape someone into a creepy flesh chair' is really something that could easily be a Ritual.

#

As it's a Downtime Sorta Thing.

#

And keep the discipline itself as the 'oh yeah, I can do my Castlevania Dracula Second Phase' and other 'Resident Evil Monster' tricks.

#

With 'Here is a ritual that requires Vicissitude 2 to do the long-term stuff'

#

Keeps disciplines more in the area of Gifts or Sorcery and also helps make Blood Sorcery less 'Oh yeah, you get All The Cool Tricks because you get most of the cool downtime abilities'

hybrid dock
marble sorrel
#

...I'm really tempted to run a game up for V20 that goes with a 'What if there was a rather different shitshow than the attack on the Vienna Chantry' that results in a fair bit more chaos/blurs some faction lines. Use some different metaplot events/pull some different levers.

I think the big point of difference is I wouldn't have the primary target vampires but the Carmarilla/Sabbat. The humans involved are trying to destroy factions, not starting up a 'kill every bloodsucker' thing (Though plenty of independent vampire hunters would still 100% be doing that). So it's doing a lot of harm to the ability of those factions to maintain structure and political control over the nights without forcing every individual vampire to go underground/you're getting a lot more independent vampire groups springing up in cities/the vampire are even more balkanized than they are by default.

I think I'd make the trigger for it Vancouver. The Pentex/Syndicate attack on the local Garou is much messier because the Dark Alliance: Vancouver truce with the local vampires actually holds and Pentex finds themselves with an entire extra faction involved they didn't expect to have to deal with. But messier also means 'It gets a lot more attention/is a lot harder to cover up'.

#

The Technocracy is heavily fractured because Pentex just got dragged into the light/the syndicate can't wash their hands of it, the Carmarilla and Sabbat are dealing with humans going 'Hey, supernatural beings can't just Have Wars in our cities and we need to show you that a big stick is an option for us'.

None of the factions (Even the humans) want to Reveal All Supernatural Stuff to the world but there's a lot of backalley wars and the loss of control brings internal tensions inside factions to a boil.

#

Making the humans anti-Carmarilla/Sabbat rather than Anti-Vampire would also lead more towards 'The humans have infiltrators/bribed agents within supernatural factions'. Plenty of Vampires are amenable to 'You give us info and don't leave too many bodies, we kill any investigations into you and give you some nice new and legal IDs despite the fact you're 300 years old'

hybrid dock
#

Oooo

hybrid dock
#

…I’m getting ideas for a god machine story hook

marble sorrel
#

oh?

hybrid dock
#

Thinking about the god machine going to war with itself, some combination of spiraling intrusive epistemic pattern and a runaway Parallel timeline.

New type of infrastructure designed not for defense but for supporting some kind of occult shadow war.

Suddenly angels have other priorities besides catching demons and their own tasks.

Things get weird, heck maybe apocalyptic, since both god machine(s?) seem to be unwilling to let the other exist

#

Maybe having mysteries and explorations of how the two are even in conflict or what they’re even…’disagreeing’ over if that’s even an applicable word to that sort of thing

#

Could be funny if angels from either god machine always refers to the other god machine as Satan

#

A weird fuckin rivalry

mighty zephyr
#

For the most part

hybrid dock
#

Oh shit?

#

Maybe I should check that out

#

That sounds dope as fuck

#

For now I’m digging through werewolf but contagion chronicles sounds cool what is that

mighty zephyr
#

Its the big crossover book

#

Framed under the god machine being terminally ill

#

Ive never read it but it did sound neat

hybrid dock
#

Fascinating

#

Wow it is so cool you are Terminally Ill

#

I still do wanna play with god machine going to war with itself but
Ill check it out later.

hybrid dock
# hybrid dock Thinking about the god machine going to war with itself, some combination of spi...

I did a little bit of pondering about “war” infrastructure.
Main purpose being concealing warfare and distributing weapons.

Stuff like giving out weapons to random hitmen and giving them targets, or being a weapons lab where “drone testing” is taking place (two angels murdering eachother)

Surprisingly disposable and always on the verge of being recycled by elimination infrastructure

hybrid dock
#

...after reading deviant
...thinking about a psychopomp who's job it is to make devoted deviants. useful for...stuff. probably. I assume.

#

some giant mechanical horror that takes people apart in the basement of some weird facility and puts them back together changed

craggy coyote
nimble gale
#

Hmm, I feel like I'd go with potence/obtenebration for gravity/black hole stuff

marble sorrel
#

It let you use your superstrength for forging metal

#

Making superdense, superhard metal that is functionally indestructible.

#

So a guy with potence doesn't ever risk snapping his sword in half 😛

#

So a guy can use a Potence Ritual and some high quality materials to make a Klaive But For Vampires.

daring hazel
#

I have not watched Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul. But.

#

Seer of the Throne based on Saul? Maybe. Dont know is he a good guy?

marble sorrel
#

...I could see a ritual that requires Celerity or Temporis that lets you do an extended task a lot faster by either Fucking Zooming or by Stretching Time. You can't use it for combat or something but you could build a house in a single night or other such 'this will take some serious time to complete' if you did it well.

mighty zephyr
marble sorrel
#

And hey, a Flim-Flam Trickster Guy who turns out to also be a genuine mage is a funny dynamic. Sorta like how Zatana is a stage magician who is also a sorceress.

#

'He lies about so many other things, he's likely lying about being a wizard...OH FUCK NO HE'S NOT'

daring hazel
#

"i promise you ive for the magic touch"

patent talon
#

They've got to make a case or coerce to get people to sign up to having a target painted on their back

marble sorrel
patent talon
#

Getting peer pressured into joining the vampire Illuminati so the elders can keep going to the state governor's parties

hybrid dock
#

Thinking bout…psychopomps a lot

clear delta
#

Love psychopomps

hybrid dock
#

They’re good

#

Thinking bout a psychopomp programmer who’s job was to make god machine infrastructural software

#

Secret messaging systems over the internet, information transfer, cybersecurity, and infecting systems so that they give data to other infrastructure

#

Quiet sort who leans into the default neutrality cus they tend to just hang out on computer

But they’re an absolute fucking nerd

#

Maybe they have that one demonic form that makes them digital or something

hybrid dock
#

werewolf pretty good so far

#

mostly skimmin it but
its a good time

#

...oh my god i kinda love the ghost wolves

image.png
#

"man what the fuck"

clear delta
#

They are red shirts

hybrid dock
#

"that sounds like a cult tbh" is the funniest response to most of this shit

#

like, they look at iron masters as "okay you are actually kinda maybe sane-ish"

clear delta
#

Having a tribe is like taking your shots

hybrid dock
#

maybe

#

maybe so

#

but also

#

i do respect the conviction to look at that and say "nah"
or at least, i like the ghost wolves who are still doing werewolf shit but dont really want to involve themselves with a tribe

#

"im not...im not doing that what the fuck dude."

clear delta
#

Ghost wolves are vulnerable to shapeshifter diseases

hybrid dock
#

nodnod

#

i like them

#

the iron masters, bone shadows, and ghost wolves so far have been very appealing to me

#

though storm lords are fun

#

but ghost wolves somehow immediately made me like them despite being the spineless centrist faction

#

its very good writing

clear delta
#

I like hunters in darkness

hybrid dock
#

theyre good!

#

i also like how every tribe has "they hunt the most dangerous kind of prey:"
and its different every time

clear delta
#

Hunters care a lot about their environments

hybrid dock
#

shame that ghost wolves seem to be inherently hampered at character creation

#

i surprisingly quite like them lmao

clear delta
#

Yeah, this and their vulnerability to getting warped physically without much defense makes them a mechanically worse option

#

Meeting a void spirit is a character loss moment. Think geryo mess up ghost wolves worse too

#

Plus, there's a thing where leading a cult can cause a weird mutation in ghost wolves

hybrid dock
#

aw man

#

thats a shame

#

i really like them :((

#

its a shame that they seem mechanically worse

clear delta
#

You can homebrew

hybrid dock
#

maybe

#

but thats more of a patch job to the problem

clear delta
#

Yesh

daring hazel
#

Do the. Maeljin show up in Werewolf 2e?

clear delta
#

Yes

daring hazel
#

What are they like there?

clear delta
#

Oh wait

#

It's just bale hounds and void wolf I think

#

Night horrors, shunned by the moon

daring hazel
#

nodnod interesting. I kind of like the Maeljin. And. The fact that IIRC they dont fit in with the rest of everything. Their naming schemes are something other

clear delta
#

Void wolf is funny

#

It gives no indication of impatience

#

But if a prospective follower takes to long to decide to follow the maeljin and which one

#

It kills them

#

It may also randomly kill them

#

Void wolf lies about its importance and place in werewolf cosmology, and doesn't bother to be consistent

#

Zero shits given

#

The book has an example of a troubled teenage werewolf being manipulated by a corrupted spirit. Wants any positive attention
Very sympathetic, and players can save her
Another is a mayor who fully joined bale hounds, and his son wanted to join too but got torn apart by void wolf.
He is pissed. He used a knife fetish to pin to a wall the bale hound that got his family into the cult, and tortures him in that room. Torture formed a wound, upon which he screams his son's name.
He really fucking hates bale hounds now

mighty zephyr
#

Ghost Wolves think Iron Masters are normal until they realize Iron Masters are the guys committed to killing humans

hybrid dock
#

no yeah they absolutely are

#

iron masters are wild

#

but like
community minded or something idk

#

i do like ghost wolves a lot

mighty zephyr
#

My werewolf was an Iron master because he was so good at emotionally manipulating and killing people

hybrid dock
#

nodnod

#

this tracks as a voy character

#

this is a character you would make

mighty zephyr
#

He was also HORRIBLY abused by everyone in his entire life

hybrid dock
#

nodnod

#

thats rough

mighty zephyr
#

The only reason he got good at the killing thing is because his pack essentially used him as a courtesan assassin against his will

clear delta
#

Two nickels situation with cannibal cults disconnected from tribes so they nab ghost wolves

hybrid dock
#

thats so rough oh my god

mighty zephyr
#

His whole thing is that he had the Embodiment of the Firstborn merit

#

But for Silver Wolf

#

Tracing a direct lineage back from Silver Wolf and being a stolen as a baby from the Ivory Claws

hybrid dock
#

oh my god???

#

im in love with this character

mighty zephyr
#

His father who got him out of there was killed in a plane crash and he ended up in foster care, then he turned out to be a werewolf on a camping trip with some friends

#

He then ran from home because holy shit

#

Ended up in his big, abusive pack who was secretly being swayed to the Pure, at which point he got chased into the Arizona Desert where he made a pact with his spirit friend Stalks the Sands

#

He then finally made it out and decided to live a life of pure hedonism because fuck everything and everyone

hybrid dock
#

y'know what

#

fair yeah

#

thats

#

ROUGH

mighty zephyr
#

I also realized Parkour on werewolves is hilariously overpowered on him

#

He just

Won Chases

#

Instantly

hybrid dock
#

hahhahahahahah

mighty zephyr
#

At one point the other werewolf my partner played tried to chase him and he just yeeted himself out a balcony and by the time she got to the ground floor he was 2 blocks away

#

Also its really funny when you realize bashing damage means nothing

#

And so you can do funny things like hurl yourself off 5 story buildings and keep running

#

We did the whole ed Edd n eddy fence bit with a roof

hybrid dock
#

hkdsjafhakdsjhfdashfkasjh

clear delta
# clear delta Two nickels situation with cannibal cults disconnected from tribes so they nab g...

One is a cult seeking a fabled trapped firstborn with the tribal oath to not waste bodies of kills, getting what food and other uses you can
Another is led by Lycaon, claiming to be a Greek king divinely rewarded for cannibalism, and took over an area by gathering desperate ghost wolves and kicked out other tribes. He, according to a thing posted to the forums by a dev, is a bit of a mini firstborn

nimble gale
#

Parkour has (or had, in nwod, I've never played cwod) hilarious interactions with a lot of splats tbh. Still have fond memories of my Purified who used it plus some siddhi to literally run up raindrops like I was playing some fuckin' wuxia bullshit

#

except instead of wuxia she dressed up like a landschnekt

clear delta
#

Werewolves fall very easily into eating humans

grave gulch
mighty zephyr
#

Expendable member of a team

#

Usually expected to die

clear delta
mighty zephyr
#

Star trek reference where crew members in red shirts going on away expeditions tended to die a lot

clear delta
#

Often to stabilish a threat or stakes

daring hazel
#

Wait. What is the consequence of eating people in WtF 2e?

clear delta
#

Let's see
I know it shifts your harmony to one side
It's mentioned to be a temptation, and you might get hooked on it?
At high primal urge, only spirits and the flesh of humans and wolves can sustain you

#

Also, social comsequences

#

It's against the oath of the moon

#

Lunes could outright punish you

daring hazel
#

nodnod clearly you should use cannabalism to balance your spiritual and human halves. I see nothing that could go wrong with this scenario

clear delta
#

One story says a town got taken over by cannibal blood talons, and destroyers wolf destroyed it

#

Perhaps after saying "it's destroying time"

mighty zephyr
#

It shifts you over to spirit to eat the flesh of wolves, humans, or werewolves

#

But you can gain essence from it

#

AND deal aggravated damage

#

And you can indeed get hooked on it

#

Its the sweetest meat

spice abyss
#

There's also what I feel is the obvious mention

#

Do you want hunters? This is how you get Hunters!

rapid glacier
#

I know in w5 it triggers Hauglosk checks

spice abyss
#

Also the effects on the spiritual landscape.

#

Disappearances are going to cause reprecussions on the Shadow no matter what, and if a partly eaten body is found

rapid glacier
#

also yeah its a great way to get hunters on your ass instantly

marble sorrel
#

Which is how I got a Geist that could deflect bullets with a fire axe.

hybrid dock
#

because Demon was i think my first chronicles game i read im permanently rotted so when a section mentioned machine angels as a rare thing shadow wolves might fight i went "👀 👀 👀 "

#

the rot is eternal

daring hazel
#

I found the system Geist 1e had for powers interesting wven if they removed it

marble sorrel
#

Oh, did 2e change it? I think I played 1e. It had a mix and match element + link system. So you could get Water + Curse or Fire + Shroud (I don't remember the precise names of the things you linked it to. It's been years).

daring hazel
#

Yeah. I think 2e changed it?

mighty zephyr
#

Except Vampire I think

clear delta
clear delta
daring hazel
#

God machine weird

marble sorrel
#

I remember the mix and match system was really fun for making it feel like each unlock opened up a whole swathe of things.

clear delta
#

Basically

#

You get the Haunts
All have five dot levels
The keys give extra plasm for your activations, and make the roll better when used in resonant situations (like near a wild place for key of beasts or using a power on an animal)

marble sorrel
#

So rather than mix and match power + type, it's more 'power + resource'?

clear delta
#

A good chunk of haunts has a basic effect with charges obtained from plasm expenditure to activate more effects,

#

Said effects being generally unlocked from extra dot levels

#

You may also get extra charges on activation due to purvhasing dot levels

hybrid dock
marble sorrel
#

I also remember Geist 1e being also a very 'yes, you can stay a functional normal person who also does scooby doo shit in the evenings'. Moreso than Vampire or Promethean. As their morality system was pretty gentle. Not sure if 2e tinkered with that.

clear delta
#

So Boneyard lets you raise the bomeyard as its base effect, exerting further control on the area from your extra effects

clear delta
#

You mostly only lose synergy from dying and from making the geist rethink the bargain

marble sorrel
#

nods
1e had that split between Psyche and Synergy.

#

And it had a more conventional morality system, with a bit of a 'don't hurt ghosts/the flow of life and death' aspect.

image.png
clear delta
#

Evil Bound traumatize, dominate, then force their geists to drink from a river before breaking their relationship and reforging it into Tyranny

clear delta
#

Mortal: Hey, bud-
Werewolf: God is making cyborg cannibal werewolves, and the devil is sending werewolves on scooby doo adventures
Mortal: What

marble sorrel
#

oWoD werewolves: "Weirdly enough, we had the cyborg werewolves in our edition."

hybrid dock
#

I do like the idea of a god machine anti werewolf angel that just also looks very werewolf like

#

But seemingly only by convergent design principles

#

…metal sonic esque character design or something

marble sorrel
#

Fallen(Werewolf), Werewolf and Vampire(Gangrel) all turning up to a place and doing the spiderman meme

hybrid dock
#

Lmao

daring hazel
#

Is there any kind of bloodsucking werewolf?

mighty zephyr
marble sorrel
#

All werewolves are bloodsucking werewolves if the meat is raw enough 😛

hybrid dock
#

I did not

#

Tell me about this lodge

#

I want to see wolves that tear apart occult robots

mighty zephyr
#

Peep

hybrid dock
#

Oh I fucking adore them

#

That’s good shit

#

I was rereading demon a couple days ago and just the vibe of the god machine is still so terrifyingly vast and intricate

#

I love these guys

#

Love zero sum too

mighty zephyr
#

I always think you should be able to picture you sacrificing someone to a Lodge Totem

hybrid dock
#

Hell yea

rapid glacier
#

Satisfying the pack patron is always a key element of any good werewolf game it’s just they always want stupid shit because humanity is so alien and bizarre; Crow wants us to find “medallions of defeated monstrosities” but he meant loose Monster energy drink tabs and now we’ve got several garbage bags full of them littered around the den we can get rid of or he screams at us in our sleep

#

Fuckin birds

mighty zephyr
#

Yeah Pack Totems are a ton of fun

#

I think there's a big difference between Pack Totems and Lodge Totems though

#

(I wanna call them Patron but I feel like it'd be confusing)

marble sorrel
#

'Our werewolves have a pack patron, a lodge patron and a patreon'

mighty zephyr
#

They even knew "Totem" probably needed to be changed in 20th but explicitly did so as to not upset the fanbase so I feel pretty justified in using it retroactively

marble sorrel
#

I vaguely recall one of the people who did some writing for W5 talking about planning on changing it to patron, yeah.

mighty zephyr
#

Ye

#

What they use in W5

#

This sidebar (which isn't a sidebar it's half a page) is such a rollercoaster

marble sorrel
#

It's a good change. It's one of those 'you picked this term because it sounds more 'nature'' terms than one that was a good choice, like how when going from Vampire to Werewolf they went from Clan to Tribe. Ironically it also didn't really work for all the W20 tribes either. Patron fits a lot better with like, the Fianna and their strong connections to Fey Spirits, than Totem did.

#

...oddly enough, Fianna was likely one of the Tribes where Tribe was Least Wrong. Tuatha is generally translated to tribe and covered everything up to city states, so it's not got quite the same 'look at these primitives' aspect to it.

graceful saffron
# mighty zephyr

"Years before these debates became common conversations" is a wild claim.

nimble gale
#

I mean. WtA's first edition was 1992; mage's was in 1993. At the time their best options for research on anything was the local library, or maybe a local university if they had a research library. They did not exist in the same information ecosystem then that we have now.

graceful saffron
#

These conversations have been happening, even publicly, since at least the 70s in the US!

#

What they are really saying is "we did zero consultation or asking this community at all"

nimble gale
#

How easily accessible were those conversations to your average group of middle class white nerds in the late 80s and early 90s, though? Like, I know it's been a ver long conversation with native organizations and governments and in academia, but how much of that actually filtered out to the stereotypical 80s/90s nerd? I'm not saying they couldn't have done better, but I think they were at least trying harder than a lot of their contemporaries of the era. It was imperfect, and definitely outright bad often, but there was at least an attempt.

graceful saffron
#

I'll put a pin in this for now, but I'd love to come back to it later if you are amiable!

Family games starting.

nimble gale
#

If hte conversation comes up again, sure, I don't mind a discussion, lol. I will however probably forget and/or be asleep in a few hours, but it's not like this is an uncommon topic to have

daring hazel
#

Guys who perform human sacrifice judging you for the cannibalism .

graceful saffron
# nimble gale How easily accessible were those conversations to your average group of middle c...

Okay, some time before bed!

My issue with this depiction the authors are taking about common conversations is that its an excuse either way we look at it.

Indigenous Peoples have also protested, written books, done interviews, participated in government surveys, protested certain books being written and offered in libraries, and had numerous things said by them and advocates about the misuse of their Ways of Knowing.

And its been happening for decades, coming and going out of the public conversation just as often!

Now, maybe these authors were never exposed to it, as you said, and they were raised to think it was okay to do research on a living culture from a library and write about it... in which case we are talking about institutional racism and privilege, not their personal choices and failings. The answer isn't to shrug and say "it wasn't't common." You still repeated and continued ongoing harms.

They also are not doing better as a group, now or then. The history of Indigenous appropriation by outsiders is longstanding, and very often looks like a curious outsider researching books by them, more often about them... and then claiming or rewriting that knowledge in well meaning but racist ways. The Turtle Lodge of the UK, various authors who have claimed Indigenous heritage or rewrote and adapted their stories... what White Wolf did wasn't new. It was just more of the same, really!

I also think their arguments it would cause "more controversy" sheds a light on their mindset, alongside criticisms from at least one cultural editor they hired, and it seems like excuses and choosing not to apologize and pivot, personally.

mighty zephyr
#

They also could have changed the name after first edition, during the 2000s when people began getting the internet and email and phones

patent stirrupBOT
#

To spoeek in there defence we are talking about the same rough time period that would produce Pohcahontus wich just both sides the whole colonazation thing. like as bad as Whitewolf was they were better then the mass marker of the 90's

marble sorrel
# graceful saffron Okay, some time before bed! My issue with this depiction the authors are taking...

They also are not doing better as a group, now or then.
To go with one of my W20 grumbles there: I've spoken before about how I love the concept Fianna as a tribe as they hook so perfectly into Irish Mythology and its own werewolf associations but also...come the fuck on mate, why are well over half their talens 'Some sort of booze' and the hacker-based fetish they get (Which is otherwise fucking cool) basicly starts off with 'Wow, we didn't know these guys were capable of anything other than drinking, fucking and fighting'. That shit, I take offence to.

I don't think stripping them down to Hart Wardens was a good fix (It's kinda a stripping of culture rather than a respecting of it) but christ even the thing I like I also need to add 'They take the very cool concept that hooks into mythology really well and then in every single expansion they proceeded to do nothing with them but Drunk Stereotype Woof'.

daring hazel
#

Wow. Start with a good idea then dive into outdated stereotypes.

#

On some level Werewolf definitely seems hard game to get this kind of thing right. And then they do it in a way that doesnt even feel like they were trying.

nimble gale
#

I think my thoughts on the matter is 'it was an understandable, if not really acceptable, excuse then, but not at all a good excuse now' if that makes sense? And the 'more controversy' arguement for W20/M20 is really sketchy at best and it probably isn't at best regardless.

#

basically if someone is trying to do better than their contemporaries, I am willing to cut them some slack so as to prevent perfect from being the enemy of good', and in the halcyon days of hte late 1900s white wolf was at least making an attempt. Nowadays they don't have that excuse.

graceful saffron
graceful saffron
mighty zephyr
#

I'm considering how I would write Demon the Fallen

#

and my immediate thought was "I think Inferno/Hell/Whatever should be another dimension, and Demons are able to escape it by latching onto a Sinner and formulating around a specific sin".

#

So you would have the splats be themed around the 7 Deadly Sins, and your Sinner is like a nexus that grounds you in humanity and gives you a framework for human emotion and keeps you out of Hell.

hybrid dock
#

...ooo

#

that is interesting

#

i will say i do still think the seven houses of heaven being the splats is good

#

at least conceptually

#

but the sin idea....the sin idea's good

mighty zephyr
#

I think the Seven Deadly Sins lets you hand it to someone who doesn't know anything about Demon, skipped the intro fluff and got right to the character creation (a completely valid way people play WoD) and let them go "Oh I get this"

hybrid dock
#

true true

#

thats true

mighty zephyr
#

And I would probably change "Earthbound" to "Hellbound", Demons who see their return to Hell as inevitable so they simply possess or consume their Sinner, resonating into demigod like monstrosities via the feedback loop that gives

hybrid dock
#

Oooooo

high current
#

Lust demon players immediately become the most likely to be vetted for maturity and understanding of what kind of game they're getting into vvvSip

clear delta
#

Use different meanings of the Sins from pop culture

#

Honestly, pop culture envy is hard for me because it's hard to relate to resenting someone for having what I don't without some reason to blame them for actually wronging me in some way

graceful saffron
high current
#

ye, i think Lust would be the bigger immediate red flag but both have potential for a player to be very disruptive

heady kestrel
hybrid dock
#

Sloth and lust are my favs

#

But

#

They get stereotyped a lot

heady kestrel
#

Im still looking for a good thing to use “Sloth Demon who is a Maid” in

mighty zephyr
#

Its not like wod doesnt have stereotypically horny splats in the last

heady kestrel
#

That’s also true

clear delta
#

I like the project moon take on sins

#

Trench crusade is also doing their own take

heady kestrel
#

Envy is also fun for more warlock patrony demons

Because you can have them get super attached to their pawns and get mad when their pawns like or love other people

clear delta
#

I like envy as resentment at what you as the reason you are denied something or get it taken from you, or at circumstances that make you hurt/weak

hybrid dock
heady kestrel
#

I think all sins deserve to have both cute/hot humanoids and horrible monsters

#

Lust demon that is just a xenomorph

velvet sparrow
#

Just like Giger intended

graceful saffron
#

Wait

#

I have a better one

#

"So whats the horrible monster?"

heady kestrel
mighty zephyr
#

I was talking about this with Alfa and he also had a fun take on it

hybrid dock
#

Oh shit?

daring hazel
mighty zephyr
#

I was gonna forward but it might be sloppy so this is probably a good sign to get out of bed

hybrid dock
#

Get outta da beb

graceful saffron
#

Pride doesn't get enough exploration either.

mighty zephyr
heady kestrel
hybrid dock
#

Oh that’s interesting

graceful saffron
#

Yeah. Or... what about familial or friend group pride? Where its about others?

hybrid dock
#

It doesn’t really capture what I really liked about Fallen(I think I just really love angels and Christian theological myths)

But it is a really cool idea

#

Plays with more “minor deity” vibes

mighty zephyr
#

I think the thing about Pride As A Sin is that it is the belief of your own superiorority

hybrid dock
#

There’s a certain arrogance

One of the fun ways to look at sins is to look at why they’re bad for the sinner

How it’s unhealthy for the person sinning

#

Playing with sin not as a moral failing, or at least not just a moral failing, but something that hurts

#

Pride is an arrogance that leads to your downfall, pride is an arrogance that prevents you from helping yourself

#

Fuckin…alpha male bullshit, could be an example of that

#

Believing some inherent superiority in yourself gives you the right to ignore your limitations

#

No you can’t only eat meat to survive eat a god damn salad or fruit or something

mighty zephyr
#

Yeah, racism, sexism, or classism are all examples of Prride

hybrid dock
#

Yeah

mighty zephyr
#

Yeah

graceful saffron
#

I nod That is part of what I am thinking. How can you define your own superiority to others... but its from something we normally don't treat as external?

"My friends are awesome, and I formed this group."

"My kids are the best kids at school"

hybrid dock
#

Good sin thoughts

#

Oooo

#

That is fun

#

There’s also a strange sense of pride in Self-pity

#

Which is fun because sometimes people confuse humility and self pity, even though humility and pride are opposites

#

Self-pity allowing you to wallow in the arrogant belief that it’s all your fault and that you can’t change or something.
Idk. There’s thoughts there but they’re half formed on my end

#

The arrogance in wallowing

heady kestrel
#

I feel like more demons should tempt instead of embody

graceful saffron
#

Its excellent thoughts.

heady kestrel
#

That was the premise of sloth maid

#

Tempting you to sloth by being really nice and doing everything for you

hybrid dock
#

Yeah

#

Pride demons being hype men/enablers

heady kestrel
#

Greed demons granting wishes

mighty zephyr
#

Voy Demon would be about finding the beauty in human failings so I do think there would be Positive And Negative aspects to every Sin

graceful saffron
#

I love this, but I must reference the "Devil Devil" Oglaf comic.

hybrid dock
#

Oooo

#

That is fun actually

#

I respect it

#

And within that angel there is so much to explore

#

Sloth can be inaction

But sloth can also be meditation and healing

#

Sloth can be holding your soul and comforting it and healing it.

#

Good thoughts

graceful saffron
hybrid dock
#

Nobilis

#

Nobilis hell is always with you

mighty zephyr
#

I would also probably have Angels be Guardian Angels that can show up

hybrid dock
#

The devils love the wicked and most bitter because they know they have nothing else to love them

hybrid dock
mighty zephyr
#

People or places protected by the Divine where the Angel is a rabig guard dog who is waiting for you to cross the fence line

hybrid dock
#

I do like guardian angels

#

I’ve currently been working my way through Dante’s divine comedy and it is interesting how Christian theology integrates other myths or figures into itself.

Like Charon being at the entrance to hell

mighty zephyr
#

Well Dante's Inferno isn't really theology

hybrid dock
#

True but it is part of like, myths about Hell

#

It’s part of stories people tell about hell

#

You see it get referenced a lot
So even if it’s not part of the main theology I feel like it’s fair to say it’s part of the myths and stories about it.

mighty zephyr
#

I think it's part of pop culture but I would differentiate that from Mythos

hybrid dock
#

Fair I guess

#

Though certainly an important work in terms of how it changes people’s conceptualizations of hell

Same with paradise lost I guess

#

Haven’t read paradise lost

#

In any case
Many good demon thoughts!!! I like hearing your thoughts about it.

And a focus on sins is funnnn

mighty zephyr
#

Yeye

#

I think it's able to Hit Christian Vibes without making it necessarily "The Abrahamic God is the only objectively true religion"

heady kestrel
#

I looked into Paradiso once
I understand why it isn’t referenced as much but I do think it’s funny

#

Especially the idea of earth-shadowed heavens

hybrid dock
#

HORNY HEAVEN

hybrid dock
heady kestrel
#

Yea

Heaven 3/Venus is heaven for horny people

graceful saffron
#

I think deciding what is proper Christian canon on Hell and what isn't is an intriguing consideration.

#

The Seven Deadly Sins themselves are, depending on your sect, pop culture also.

#

And they've seen numerous changes and reconsiderations. Its why I like how Blasphemous (the video game) specified what sect, location, and historical era of Christianity it was drawing from.

high current
sacred viper
#

Demon music

hybrid dock
#

I’ve never been huge on consensus demons

#

Been finally actually working on my own depiction of hell in an rpg and I’ve been having a great time

#

If there’s one book I adore for depictions of hell it’s Wayne Barlowe’s work with God’s Demon

#

Highly recommend if you’re into that kind of thing

mighty zephyr
#

It's less consensus understanding and more "shaped by the individual Sinner's psyche"

hybrid dock
#

Mm mhm mhm

#

I do enjoy sins…

mighty zephyr
#

And Sins in this context are like

#

"A painful action that you know, deep down, is wrong"

#

No objective morality scale, just born from that sense of regret mixing with the pain you cause

hybrid dock
#

Mmmmm

#

Fuuun

#

I’ve been enjoying sins as physical objects that weigh down the soul a lot

mighty zephyr
#

Jojo Part 4

hybrid dock
#

Oh?

#

I don’t watch jojo
;-;

mighty zephyr
#

https://jojowiki.com/The_Lock

JoJo's Bizarre Encyclopedia - JoJo Wiki
The Lock

The Lock (じょうまえ／錠前(ザ・ロック), Jōmae/Za Rokku) is the Stand of Tamami Kobayashi, featured in the fourth part of the JoJo's Bizarre Adventure series, Diamond is Unbreakable.

hybrid dock
#

Ooooo

rapid glacier
#

This reminds me I need to get the Eidolons book next paycheck

#

Also I may have my first session 0 tonight aaaaaaaaaa it’s finally happening

hybrid dock
#

The thing I was writing was specifically iron bands around the wrists, ankles, and neck of each sinner in hell.
Inscribed is some epithet describing their sin or guilt, and has some proportional weight to the sins.

The weight is like, calibrated to a certain depth of hell, so you’re more comfortable/drawn to certain layers.

But sinners travel a lot. So it’s a constant weight.

The weight can also be reduced, but it can also increase

#

Epithets include “arrogant” “kin-slayer” “traitor to love” etc etc

rapid glacier
#

“Dallas Cowboys Fan”

hybrid dock
#

LMAO

daring hazel
hybrid dock
#

When you sin you sin against yourself most of all…

#

Or something

clear delta
heady kestrel
#

Oooo yeah

mighty zephyr
#

I also kinda wanna homebrew a Sinners-style vampire

mighty zephyr
#

I feel like this is probably like a Hunter Quarry level of unique vampire

high current
#

Remmick just seemed like a Brujah to me OhIPanda or Daeva in VtR terms

#

beyond speed/strength/charisma i think the most he had going for him was understanding there was something special about Sammy, which, Mages gonna Mage

mighty zephyr
#

Remmick reads to me as like a vampiric mutant

high current
#

oh right there was also the memory absorbing stuff rooThink

marble sorrel
mighty zephyr
#

"Somehow the Embrace doesn't cause Humanity loss, however your Dominate is turned up to eleven and you can never quite turn it off"

marble sorrel
high current
#

Kiasyd/Maeghar's memory theft stuff is temporary and more blatantly magical though iirc

#

Remmick just absorbs memories when he drinks blood

marble sorrel
#

Temporary with Steal the Mind, Permanent with Absorb the Mind. Though that's also very high dot.

mighty zephyr
#

His childer are also like, Hive-minded

high current
#

right, that's the real weird thing about him

#

the memory absorption could maybe be managed with Telepathy from Auspex, but the hivemind stuff is beyond the realm of player options i think

mighty zephyr
#

Yeah

nimble gale
#

there's the bee bloodline

#

one sec

#

I think they were vtr though

#

ah, yeah, they were, the Melissidae

mighty zephyr
#

It's weird, Remmick's hivemind is not like

#

You're mindless

#

You're just sorta subsumed into the whole

high current
#

the memory absorption is more just an aspect of the hivemind imo, it's less 'all is one' more 'everyone can share knowledge'

#

malk shit vvvSip

mighty zephyr
#

Yeah Malk was my first thought

clear delta
#

There's a memory bloodline

#

Well one or two

high current
#

its just a little funky since iirc he retains memories from some he bites but they get fully killed before they can come back as a vampire

clear delta
#

But can't remember off the top of my head

mighty zephyr
#

A Hive is a mutant, an aberrant among the Clans where Dominate naturally flourishes. They are incredibly dangerous to Kindred and Kine alike, as a Hive can Embrace with horrifying frequency. Particularly powerful Hives may Embrace dozens of souls in a single night, hardly slowing down or showing a change for the atrocity. These unfortunate souls are not quite truly independent Kindred, beholden to the Hive and connected to it, changed fundamentally yet appearing the same. To truly tell if they're sapient individuals or consumed conciousnesses still puppeted by a grand mind is impossible to tell, and for anyone currently dealing with a Hive, completely pointless in it's distinction. These individuals carry all the same mannerisms, memories, and individual quirks, yet are committed entirely to the whims of the Hive.

# 
If a Hive's childe likewise Embraces a person, they are held under the Thrall of the Hive. 
Hives cannot Blood Bond, nor create Ghouls. 
A Hive gains access to the memories of all they Embrace. This cannot drum up memories the target may have forgotten, their memory works as if they were still a natural human.
As an affront to all things natural, Hives take damage from the Sun at double whatever their natural rate is.```
daring hazel
#

The. Bloodline from Requiem? Or is this something else

mighty zephyr
#

This is just a random thing

marble sorrel
#

Hmmm...really tempted to do up a bit of a woof write up. Try my own take on the Fianna, as someone activity connected to Irish culture.

marble sorrel
#

I think I'd likely stress their origins as a Warrior Band more and how that makes them more connected to humans than a lot of woofs. Not in a 'lives in cities' way so much as a 'life exists outside of wolfstuff' way

#

As well as grab a bit from the myth of the Tuatha.

#

Every tribe fights and spirits and histories but the Fianna do those things in balance, instead of the focus on history over all else of the Silver Fangs or the violence over all else of the Get.

#

Others might call it generic but they'd call it Skilled In Many Arts. Samildánach is Lugh's epithet after all.

graceful saffron
#

Love this.

marble sorrel
#

If I have the brain I'd likely tinker a bit with thier gifts too.

marble sorrel
#

...keeping the issue with Metis, I think I'd link it to that instead of 'We just kinda hate them'.

#

Metis are fundamentally unbalanced, too connected to werewolves rather than the wider world.

#

They can't naturally integrate with humans or wolves.

#

Which is unpleasant for a tribe who focuses on balance.

graceful saffron
#

What does the word Metis mean in an Irish context?

#

Because its the word for an Indigenous community in Canada, so this sounds really bad!

marble sorrel
#

I'll likely invent a term I like better for it

#

One less 'ooof'

#

I might genuinely grab Fomori for it. It's cruel to call someone.

#

But it's not a real life group.

#

Fomorians were mishappen giants and werewolves with two werewolf parents have serious issues/their default form is the giant warform.

graceful saffron
#

Oooo,that's an interesting and suggestive pull.

marble sorrel
#

With the cultural issue being: Fianna are big on thier connection to non-werewolves. These poor bastards can't go among wolves OR humans until they get the first shift.

#

So they are forced outsiders.

mighty zephyr
#

Crinosborn is generally what I see used when people refer to it.

marble sorrel
# 
Watchwolf (Fianna Gift 2): Much like the famous hound of Cu, the Fianna are deeply connected with humans and this connection tempers the beast with guardianship. A hound spirit teaches this gift.

You ignore the effects of The Beast Within. If your willpower is equal or higher than your rage, non-violent actions by kinsfolk and humans cannot provoke rage rolls.```
short quiver
nimble gale
#

Honestly I don't mind the idea of genercizing the terms for wyrm-possesed away from Fomori and gaia-possessed away from kami.

#

wyld gorgons might want a change too, but I think drones are okay?

#

there's like four things called gorgons in owod

marble sorrel
#

Drones is fun

marble sorrel
#

Blood Bonds fade after 12-willpower months. If you manage to hit WP12 through cap-breaking effects would that give immunity to blood bonds?

#

Werewolves can manage it, not sure if other splats can. I'd lean yes as 'come the hell on. You stacked willpower 10 + super rare merit + fancy fetish on top of this. You get to ignore downing a red sippy cup'.

marble sorrel
#

Hmm...ironically for all the Fae Trappings, Fianna are kinda bad at interacting with Changelings/Fae on a mechanical level. That could do with a tinkering in this rewrite.

graceful saffron
#

It would make sense they are better at it, given what you said about the Fomori.

#

Changelings specifically.

graceful saffron
marble sorrel
#

I think the issue is that the werewolf book came out before the changeling book

#

And the W20 book is mostly updates, not that many full rewrites of things

marble sorrel
graceful saffron
#

Ahhh. I nod I honestly don't recall how important Bb are in VtM.

marble sorrel
#

They are disgustingly powerful if you can make them work but they require 3 gulps of blood to get to the 'You are my minion' level.

#

So they're sorta 'When they work, they really work but a lot of the time they won't super matter'

graceful saffron
#

I nod Very different from VtR then.

#

Yeah, makes sense to allow a super willpower break.

marble sorrel
#

The 3 levels in VTM are:

1: You are kinda focused on me. Doesn't make you like me. Can just as easily cause Zengatafication.
2: You care a lot about my opinion but are not absolutely focused on me/won't break deeply held morals.
3: You are hopelessly addicted, with 'making me happy' your primary focus.
graceful saffron
#

I nod Ah, yes, thats coming back to me now!

marble sorrel
#

It's why the Tremere weakness in Dark Ages is really mean.

#

As they jump straight to 2/ignore 1 entirely.

#

Which makes it a much, much scarier tool against them.

#

I think a low level, slightly risky gift for the Fianna should literally just be 'You can see Chimerical Reality' (What the Changelings/Fey see).

#

It lets you see a changeling's 'true' self over their human form/see the world of dreams and glamour.

#

The reason it's a Bit Risky is to see and comprehend Chimerical Reality is to be part of it.

#

If you can see the Ogre, you can get smashed across the room by the Ogre

#

I think I'm also going to take one of their original gifts and take it out the back and kill it for replacement. XD

#

'Summon Booze' is kinda in the 'Hey, you're just doing a racism' area.

marble sorrel
# 
Hospitable Nature (Rank 2 Fianna Gift)
This Gift allows the Fianna to feel out the perfect token to help ease tensions and broker hospitality. They make great use of this in their adventures, messengers and traveling bards finding respite in the most unlikely of places. A Boar-spirit teaches this Gift.

System: The player rolls Charisma + Empathy. The difficulty of this roll is based on the knowledge of the person a token is being organized for and how opposed they are to the Fianna (As low as 4 for a fellow Garou the Fianna knows well, to as high as 9 if attempting to earn favour in the middle of a Tzimisce court while openly a Werewolf.) If successful, the Storyteller tells the player what token would most smooth over tensions (A bottle of a favoured vintage, an object that the target collects or even a toy that their child would love) and bring circumstances for open communication. If the listed gift could be obtained for resources and the Fianna achieved successes equal to or greater than the resources value of the gift, he has it already prepared and may produce it immediately.

Successfully producing a token discovered by this gift removes all increases to difficulty for social actions from personal vendettas, bigotry or mistrust. This lasts until the end of the scene, or longer if the Fianna does not abuse this extension of trust.
nimble gale
#

I like it!

radiant marsh
#

First Tongue words for things actually sounded consistent rather than 'grab bags of random terms the writers thought were cool'

high current
#

they're all loosely based on ancient sumerian iirc

#

to steal a quote from Ethan Skemp from the unofficial white wolf wiki

The root of most First Tongue stuff is Sumerian, then run back through Grimm's Law. Step Three is where it gets really complicated, though, as many — and I mean many — a word is not at all literally the un-Grimmed Sumerian root. Messing around in WTF: Blasphemies I had to come up with some weird poetic language — like "neighbor-desire" for Envy. Many of the words that you see in the core were assembled by the guy who first put this thing together (James Kiley) and then many more were done by Carl Bowen while I was working on other stuff. So I can't quote the exact etymology of some words. Hieing all the way back to that traffic light spirit, the Little Road Tyrant — yeah, its First Tongue name was derived from the Sumerian "red-yellow-green."

hybrid dock
#

Ooooo

high current
#

somewhere there's a spreadsheet some people on the onyx path forums put together with translations for a bunch of english words into unofficial psuedo-First Tongue

mighty zephyr
#

Yeah i used this a ton

rapid glacier
#

is this WtF's primal tongue/garou speak?

mighty zephyr
#

Yeah

spice abyss
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@hybrid dock
The theme of the Infernal is this: demons are inherently selfish. They are driven by sin, consumed by Vice. Hell, they’re not just consumed by it; they are the very manifestations of iniquity, born of dark desires and mad urges. A demon wants. That is all. Its Virtue is only a sham, a mask it wears to accomplish a temporary goal. But its Vice is what it is at the deepest core of its spirit. The titular inferno is not necessarily the literal flames of Hell licking at the creature’s back—it is the terrible passions, so swift to consume, that drive the devils with single-minded determination.

One of the early blurbs for Inferno demons.

mighty zephyr
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Also the Christian Wolves

spice abyss
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The truths is holds about Inferno Demons is that they are spiritually weak and cannot resist chances to give into their Vice, they have forbidden, forgotten knowledge, they rebel against ordered structures.

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And most importantly, demons will always, always lie.

hybrid dock
spice abyss
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Also very funny

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Demons are liars: Very, very true. Demons don’t lie pointlessly, but they do lie. They are skilled deceivers, to the point where supernatural powers can neither steal secrets from their “minds” nor detect falsehood. Ironically, this property actually helps supernatural demon hunters find their prey, as it is one of the few objective qualities that sets true demons apart from other spirits.

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Now this may seem familiar. 😛

hybrid dock
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Hahahhahaha

marble sorrel
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The other sorcerer in my vampire game is...concerning. Her current plan if we encounter Mages is 'steal their books and try to translate their magic into blood magic rituals'. She's also Pretty Sure she can safely study Baali magic without actually making any demonic pacts.

rapid glacier
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sounds like typical Tremere hubris to me

marble sorrel
rapid glacier
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the Banu Haqim aren't hunting down those tomes, that's for sure

marble sorrel
rapid glacier
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Then you’re not really unhinging down grimoires, you’re baby sitting a Tremere from either blowing themselves up or getting your coterie caught up in bullshit

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General Rule of Thumb: do not read creep times of magic, especially if you think they will give you some power. You’re gonna get got, one way or the other.

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Creepy tomes* come on phone get with the program

patent talon
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If I didn't have my PC read every creepy tome they came across, I'd feel like I'm missing out

rapid glacier
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Well yes obviously but it’s important to note that doing so Is A Bad Idea, at least as far as players know

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Their characters embody hubris and a struggle for power, but players should always go “lol this is gonna get us murked by someone eventually” at every suspicious notebook

nimble gale
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Without Hubris, are you even a mage* (*or the equivalent for non-mage splats)

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note the capital H there

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I don't want no mortal hubris here

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we're talking the shit they make cautionary myths and legends about

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sorta Hubris that stares down Mount Olympus and goes 'Nah, I'd win, I'm built different'

clear delta
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Zeus needs a reality check
Through the skull

marble sorrel
nimble gale
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100%

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she's a tremere in 1242 all they know how to do is beg for safety, commit crimes against humanity, Hubris, eat hot chip and lie

rapid glacier
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All Tremere live in service to Big Hubris, its part of the territory

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even the Carna's think they can fix Clan Tremere, which is met with a hearty lol and a full-throated lmao

marble sorrel
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New proposed replacement for paradox on all mages and mage-like splats: As you do mage bullshit, you accumulate Fuck Around. When you roll badly, it converts into Find Out.

heady kestrel
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Honestly? I could see that as a core mechanic in a comedy system

rapid glacier
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that is almost assuredly how Paradox is going to work for M5

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since the new dice systems has the 5 resource dice

marble sorrel
marble sorrel
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Found the rules for doing Magic Hacking to Mage Toys. This W20 character (The GM agreed that psychic powers are functionally linear magic for a Kitsune's ability to learn it, so their magical expertise is technomancy) is going to do some very silly things to mages and their toys.

image.png
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Techno: 'Here is our powerful HIT Mark, it will destroy those reality deviants'

Kitsune: 'My willpower vs 2x your wonder rating. I'm rolling at TN 4, you're rolling at TN 7. If I win, you get turned off until someone reboots you.'

HIT Mark: "Daisy, Daisy, Give Me Your Answer Dooooo...."

marble sorrel
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Yeah, okay. So Technocracy Mech Suits roll 8 dice as they're Wonder 4. That's...quite feasible for this character to tell to Piss Off pretty reliably.

nimble gale
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Lol

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"Get this Weaver shit outta here"

marble sorrel
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The Technocrats made the devices but they're creations of the Weaver so they can't claim to be the masters of them.

rapid glacier
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How deep into the other cosmologies does Mage get? I would think they wouldn’t bother with weaver spirits when they can just snap things into existence without them

worthy sundial
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iirc mage is explicitly weaverpilled

marble sorrel
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What Mages would call Stasis, Werewolves would call the Weaver.

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Mages would say it's just a fundemental force, werewolves would say it's an actual being

rapid glacier
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Yeah sure that part is understandable but do they refer to them as weaver spirits or is this an interpretation

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Because Vampires don’t reference the other weird stuff they do as ‘Wyrm-aligned’, they couldn’t care less about the werewolf side of things, I just assumed Mages wouldn’t either

marble sorrel
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They'd refer to them as Stasis Spirits. Werewolves and Mages both spend the most time in Other Realities.

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So when it comes to spirit stuff, there's a lot of overlap

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When you're Surfing The Web as a mage with your Magic Computer, there's a chance a werewolf might wander over to the cyberspace mystical realm and Eat Your Files.

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Vampires are kinda Shit At Spirit Stuff.

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Unless you're an Assasmite Sorcerer, spirits are not really something you do much.

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What a Technocracy guy might call an Enlightend Artificial Intelligence, a werewolf might call a Weaver Spirit from Cyberspace

nimble gale
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yeah

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Glass Walkers can explicitly access the Digital Web, just like mages can

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and the weaver/wyld/wyrm/gaian triat+1 is pretty explicitly mapped to the stasic/dynamic/entropic/questing essences

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hell, some mages will refer to weaver/wyld/wyrm. Verbena, definitely, plus nothing stops Kinfolk from awakening

marble sorrel
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Hell, if you're a mortal sorcerer with the right merit you might Accidentally Tron Yourself if you go to an area where the line between the physical and the Digital Web are lean.

nimble gale
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yeah

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it's not common by any means but well within the realms of possibility

marble sorrel
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...Aininur has that merit. That said: I don't think the digital web exists in dark ages. XD

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She would be so fucking baffled

nimble gale
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but yeah as far as owod goes the two--oh, it does, what do you think mount qaf is--splats that overlap the most cosmologically is werewolf and mage