Bad idea for them
#World of Darkness
grave gulch
Thats neat
I wasnt sure if something like that would happen since mages have human bodies
spice abyss
They can totally do it, but it's a bad idea for a few reasons aside from the aggravated damage.
One of which is that it invites mages to interact with you more regularly.
Yes, you are a perfect liar. And yes, you have some cool tricks.
But you know what you don't have? Magic.
As soon as you do something that does not add up, you're going to be mystery crack for mages, and that shit destroys cover.
mighty zephyr
Demons can make pacts with any supernatural EXCEPT
Beasts
Then it just doesn't work
Because Beasts and Demons absolutely despise each other
On a metaphysical level
spice abyss
Beasts and Demons both mutually freak each other out.
"Wait a second. You're not Family. What the fuck?"
"How can you tell?!"
grave gulch
chilly vault
I think some kinship between demons and Prometheans would be cool, since Prometheans are objects of interest for ambiguously angelic beings
Not “ignores disquiet” kinship, but something
heady kestrel
I’ve seen some weird theories about the relationship between GM angels and the Promethan ones I can’t pronounce
spice abyss
Well, Demons don't have to feel Disquiet.
It's a choice for them
But it's a good way to blow your cover
dawn creek
mighty zephyr
M5 will probably be Fine.
However I think the discourse around it will be completely seperate on it's actual quality
dawn creek
i honestly want wraith 5 but whatever, guess gotta wait
velvet sparrow
Oh, absolutely
dawn creek
also here's another meme
i think a screen for HtR5 has not even been announced, right?
high hornet
This week I get to have the grans adventure of being sucked into the void
What will happen? Even the storyteller is calling me a fuck
It's what I get for playing the hero
radiant marsh
I mean I'm not deliberately trying to kill them or cause unfair encounters.
grave gulch
Yeah that's what im trying to avoid
The problem is i think im going to far the other way around
radiant marsh
Sometimes a character is just going to do Stupid Shit
And you can hint that it's a bad idea
You can outright have NPCs state it's a bad idea
You can OOCly tell them it's a bad idea
But if they want to continue anyway
I don't GM much, but I've only had that happen all of once
Which was a situation of "X area on the map is basically Mordor."
"It is A Big Deal ™️ in fact, to just walk into Mordor."
"Please do not walk into Mordor."
"I am telling you OOC this will end badly if you walk into Mordor."
"They walked into Mordor..."
granted this was teh ony and onyl time I tried GMing for a living world sort of setup
grave gulch
.i see
mighty zephyr
How mean should i be?
If anyone has the ability to heal I'm gonna hit them with a bus
grave gulch
clear delta
Toji their ass
grave gulch
chilly vault
But it's a good way to blow your cover
It would be fun if choosing to ignore disquiet literally caused your cover to start breaking down
grave gulch
supple quail
"Wait a second. *You're not Family.* What the fuck?"
"How can you tell?!"
more evidence for ‘the god machine is an outside context problem for CoD supernatural stuff’
dawn creek
still salty about CofD not goign anywhere anymore, i'm going to paradox's hq just to hold them at gunpoint and have demon and promethean v5 made
grave gulch
does a werewolf go back to their human form when they die?
chilly vault
Whywolf
high hornet
whatwolf
grave gulch
perish 
royal river
Whenwolf
spice abyss
Whowolf
spice abyss
does a werewolf go back to their human form when they die?
Anywho, yes.
grave gulch
Thanks
radiant marsh
Humorous crazy or crazy crazy
grave gulch
Crazy crazy
grave gulch
one of my players is being hunted by a cult the idea is to have a quarry who's like a boogeyman and wonders through the underground tunnels of london, and i'm trying to figure out some of the things it could do, aside from being physically strong i was thinking that it could be warded off with light, it lives in the tunnels for a reason
this is supposed to be like an opportunistic hunter who's going to be stalking one of the players in their underground base and besides being sneaky....what else would yall give to such a creature?
radiant marsh
Traps, maybe?
Trying to herd them into dangerous areas/a prepared hunting ground
Ability to mimic sounds would be good/creepy
grave gulch
True 
i like the sound idea
grave gulch
Perfect
radiant marsh
See, I'd classify that as 'humorous crazy' 😛
grave gulch
suppose humorous crazy is better haha
radiant marsh
grave gulch
my players are psychos
midnight grotto
Twitter
velvet sparrow
Huh
midnight grotto
Someone pointed out how Masquerade got a big fancy special edition for its 20th birthday and Requiem gets a tweet.
velvet sparrow
Yeah...
grave gulch
that's sad 
midnight grotto
I'll never not be angry about this. Death to WoD5 forever.
I try to be civil but I curse the Dracula man and his grim legacy with my dying breath.
velvet sparrow
... the Dracula man?
radiant marsh
SNRK
I forgot his name
So I googled 'Swedish LARP Dracula'
And it came up
Martin Ericsson
But yeah
He was a guy who was big in the Swedish LARP scene
So Paradox hired him to handle nuWhite Wolf
And he fucked it to the extent they brought everything in-house, and in the process killed off CoD and the 20th Anniversary editions...And also brought W5 in-house from the people who were writing it and irreparably fucked it, but apparently that's a contentious topic.
COINCIDENTALLY
All the really fucky shit with classic WoD mainly happened under one guy and as soon as he left things began becoming orders of magnitude less cringy
There's also a distinct point where the same person started working with Martin and it all turned into an international incident.
Mark Rein-Hagen, specifically
midnight grotto
Martin Ericsson
I always forget his name but my friend who's actually a CofD/WoD freelance writer always calls him Dracula
radiant marsh
I've always just called him Swedish Dracula
empty patrol
I'm just going to add that in a public play environment one of the things that may make Mage hard is that it asks a lot of players and storyteller
grave gulch
one of my players almost died
empty patrol
So for people coming in having never read a word of the rulebook it may be bumpy
(Also my hot take is that 5e wod is mostly fine. Does some things better, some things worse)
high current
yeah, there's some shitheads involved in the writing process(Dracula and Karim come to mind), but overall I think WoD5e is pretty good
also i dont know that Dracula's homophobic apologia(and other issues) had anything to do with the current state of CofD and WoD20th
cause there was like, a few years between him being fired and the sudden halt on anything new from Onyx Path on those fronts, iirc
empty patrol
The weird hair raising dog whistles and weird "Vampires encouraged homophobia" are why 5e was brought in-house right? The whole onyx path/renegade thing makes things convuluted
high current
(for context, the 'homophobic apologia' in question was, iirc, a paragraph in the V5 Camarilla book that implied vampires were okay with or possibly even responsible for the situation in Chechnya)
empty patrol
Righhhhht
velvet sparrow
(for context, the 'homophobic apologia' in question was, iirc, a paragraph in th...
(Chechnya very did not like that someone said there was a situation in Chechnya)
high current
the timeline, as i recall, is the first version of the Cam book came out, then within a week or so he was fired and they re-released it without the offending paragraphs. This was all the way back in 2018.
and then Onyx Path continued publishing new stuff for CofD, WoD20, and V5, for a whole 4 years--doesnt look like things slowed down until 2023, from what I can see
radiant marsh
It was more the bringing everything in-house that killed it, I think
Because they were originally going to run WW as it's own spinoff company IIRC
high current
🤷♂️ OP kept making new stuff for V5 through at least early 2022, ~3.5 years after core stuff was brought in-house
empty patrol
Also iirc sales are still good and renegade continues to publish at a steady clip so a little odd for a dead company
empty patrol
I guess they're just the publisher? https://renegadegamestudios.com/
radiant marsh
I think they also wrote Hunter
And they WERE working on Werewolf, but they brought it in house before it launched
No, i'm wrong
That was Hunters Entertainment
empty patrol
Hah yeah not convoluted at all
high current
yeah paradox spent a bit shuffling a lot of stuff around
grave gulch
boogeyman done
now for my werebeast hunt 
do ya think a werebat could work for a bait and switch?
grave gulch
back to mage
@chilly vault @clear delta help
i understand nothing of this building mysteries and revelations and scrutiny 
high current
weird magic stuff that the characters have yet to figure out is a Mystery(this includes characters of other splats)
Mysteries have an Opacity which determines how difficult they are to figure out; typically, the rating of the most relevant arcanum required to achieve the effect in question, or the dot rating of the ability if it comes from another splat, is a good benchmark, bumped up by a point or two if it's a major plot point or setting element
Revelation is the action you take to try and see what's up with a given Mystery, by rolling (Gnosis+Arcanum-Opacity). The Arcanum rolled is up to the player, iirc, and if they choose something that doesn't really apply(eg, using Space on a shapeshifted werewolf), you're allowed to tell them 'you think this is the wrong arcanum' or something to that effect
there's also Scrutiny, which is an extended action you do to try and lower Opacity, by rolling Gnosis+Arcanum flat; goal number is the current Opacity, and any excess successes are wasted, then the Opacity goes down by 1 for that specific Mage, and they can keep going to try and reduce it further, but if they make too many attempts they risk their own Nimbus bleeding in and raising the Opacity further
open roost
does anyone know what the next wod5 is gonna be? im thinking its wraith but i dont have any actual proof of that
high current
i dont think they've given any indication, other than the fact that Wraith has a couple of games to Mages 1(which was phone exclusive and no longer available afaik)
(Wraith had the VR game, Afterlife, and then the Orpheus Project or w/e which was only playable on an Alexa iirc)
velvet sparrow
i dont think they've given any indication, other than the fact that Wraith has a...
To be fair, how much of that is because how the fuck do you translate Mage to something other than a ttrpg
mighty zephyr
I think Mage The Ascension translates better to most other forms of media than it does to a TTRPG tbh
grave gulch
high current
Mage would work wells as a tv show or movie. Not so much a video game, without hindering the point of it being Mage
Like, you either limit the available options for what the player can do with magic, at which point its more Sorcerer than Mage(Sorcerers being linear mages), or you make it interactive fiction and put a limit on what kinds of magic the player can do for the sake of actually being able to write descriptions for their spells
grave gulch
high current
cause like, a single problem in mage has potentially infinite possible solutions for actual players using the rules, but in a video game you have to limit their options or else just turn it into AI Dungeon
like, Scribblenauts is just summoning stuff. that's all you ever do in that game really
grave gulch
tru
mighty zephyr
The best version of Mage the Ascension as a video game is Book of Hours
chilly vault
I think Mage The Ascension translates better to most other forms of media than i...
Makes sense given it’s just The Invisibles: The Game
XD
patent talon
Mage the Awakening game where the implication it's a Pentacle tool to try and induce awakenings in the players is confirmed when the Seers start trying to hack it as you play
grave gulch
mighty zephyr
Archon of Unreasonable Demands
Sultan of Tears Choked
Dynast of Detoothed Dogs
Purveyor of Bones Eaten Below
Swine-Prince of Skin Flayed Daily
Baron of Shameful Resent
Oligarch of Scarred Minds
Blemisher of flesh unbound
Disfigurer of Small Sad Beasts
Whisperer of Quarrels, Discord and Falsehood
Boy-King of Coins Stolen Unbeknownst
Princess of Lurid Temptations
Queen of Appearances Despised
Marquis of Ash-Covered Meat Fed
Jester of Starved Touch
Blower of Inverted Horns from above
Foul-Father of Anxiety
Mother of Horse Eyes
Petrificator of Men at Sunrise
Pale-Queen of Midsummers Missed
Empress of Hoarse Throats
Artist of Egos Besmirched
mighty zephyr
Yes
grave gulch
and the titles indicate the sort of powers they get from it or nah?
mighty zephyr
It's more it gives them their Story and they're omnipotent in that domain
grave gulch
i see
chilly vault
To defeat a true fae you have to absolutely refuse to play into their dynamic
And they may not give you a choice
valid merlin
each given Gentry will also probably have multiple Titles
mighty zephyr
However a Title is almost a seperate entity
heady kestrel
To defeat a true fae you have to absolutely refuse to play into their dynamic
I think you have to like... trick them into unraveling the contracts that make up the title?
grave gulch
Btw
Since im using Fae, should i separate both Arcadias?
Cause i remember someone mentioning how the pne from changeling is not the one from mage
mighty zephyr
Yeah they are completely different
grave gulch
i should probably refer to the fae one in a different way then
like the Gentry's realm or something
mighty zephyr
The Domain of the Fair Folk
grave gulch
that works
grave gulch
ok ok ok
since i wanna go a lil slower with me players
would it be safer for them to join an order as the game progresses?
high current
Officially the 2 Arcadias may or may not be the same and it's up to the ST
But then being separate makes more sense to most people
Also joining orders during the chronicle is totally viable. Signs of Sorcery iirc includes rules for starting with freshly Awakened characters
clear delta
Officially the 2 Arcadias may or may not be the same and it's up to the ST
But t...
No, Dave said they're different as of 2e
grave gulch
Is Signs of sorcety a book?
clear delta
Yes
clear delta
No idea haha
What's your guess?
clear delta
Acanthus? Guess I can see it
grave gulch
Neat
radiant marsh
Inaccurate. W5 actually looks appetizing in the image.
versed zodiac
this is the edition wars thread skully
chilly vault
I like Forsaken
radiant marsh
Forsaken is pretty great
Especially 2e
Also 20A campaign starts a week from today, so pretty psyched for that.
radiant marsh
Out of curiosity, what are you playing character-wise?
clear delta
this is the edition wars thread skully
Chaos reigns
radiant marsh
I sort of went stereotypical 'me' character for the 20A one and went Black Fury Ahroun.
grave gulch
I UNDERSTAND IMPROVISED SPELLS NOW 
IM ALL POWERFUL
Except for the withstand thingy
I dont get that yet
grave gulch
Awakening 2e
radiant marsh
Ah. The one I don't have. 😛
mighty zephyr
Out of curiosity, what are you playing character-wise?
Wolfborn Gale Stalker Theurge
radiant marsh
Wolfborn Gale Stalker Theurge
Nice.
radiant marsh
That's a good Deed Name.
...random aside.
The most amusing Deed Name I think I've encountered was a Glass Walker Ragabash
Named 'Pronounces GIF Wrong'
clear delta
What is the coolest changing breed in apocalypse?
radiant marsh
Ananasi or Bastet, probably
Rokea would be cool, but they run into the classic WoD problem of "Here's something neat, here's the rules on how to play one, and now here's the lore where we spell out in explicit terms why playing one is basically impossible."
grave gulch
Imma have a werebat in my hunter game
I want the players to think that there's a vampire on the loose
Also cause i think werebats are cool!
high current
im personally a fan of Mastigos and Thyrsus for Awakening paths 
moreso Mastigos, mainly like Thyrsus for some of the legacies
high current
Except for the withstand thingy
basically if a spell has a direct effect on a subject, changing or altering them in any way, they'll likely apply the relavent resistance attribute(stamina/composure/resolve) as a Withstand rating
damaging spells don't get a Withstand, because stamina is already figured into health--i'd argue that something sapping Willpower probably wouldn't be withstood either, for the same reason wrt composure/resolve, but that isn't explicitly spelled out i dont think
spirits instead apply Rank as a Withstand, usually, and objects apply Durability usually
Withstand lowers the potency of a spell one-for-one, so if a spell has duration as its primary factor, and thus by default a potency of 1, then most beings won't be affected by it unless the caster sacrifices some dice to increase the potency(2 per point)
if a spell has potency as a primary factor, most mages will probably feel comfortable leaving it around 3 against sleepers, cause thats above the average rating in attributes(2), but if you know you're dealing with a tough/stoic/stubborn person, it's worth bumping it up to 4 or 5, maybe even 6, to be sure it'll work
high hornet
Good news I am not in the abyss any more
and accidentally did a bunch of checks and accidentally did a bunch of abyss mysticism, because half of the stuff they do is summoning the abyss and staring into it and letting it in
and I didn't really have a choice in the matter
but I passed all the checks
and now I have cool powers
radiant marsh
And Cool Powers is what it's all about!
heady kestrel
Fucked Up Monster Idea for Mage The Awakening:
Abyss Monsters who don't have heads and can only sense things through touching them, their only goal in life is to rip off a human's head and shove it on their stump and then they can perfectly impersonate them and try to live their life, eventually they lay eggs and create more headless monsters
chilly vault
Fucked Up Monster Idea for Mage The Awakening:
Abyss Monsters who don't have he...
Yes this is good
This is perfect horrible abyss monster
clear delta
im personally a fan of Mastigos and Thyrsus for Awakening paths <:rooSit:9080792...
Spirit and astral stuff are fun
grave gulch
if a spell has potency as a primary factor, most mages will probably feel comfor...
so is this something the players need to find out for themselves?
high current
A subject's withstand against a given spell? Yeah. They'd know what a spell will be Withstood by, but not the stats of their target(s), unless they've used mage sight or a Knowing spell to learn those stats(or a rough ballpark)
clear delta
Also, sympathy spells have the sympathetic "distance" as withstand
Plus 1 if you don't know their sympathetic name
grave gulch
Oh so i gotta tell em if the creature can withstand a spell
But no need to give stats
clear delta
How common do you think ephemerals with full human-like minds are?
As in, the results of psychic genesis, or beings affected by that Pandemonic Boon.
There must a chunk of those with Indefinite or Lasting minds running around
high current
for ghosts, anything rank 1+ has acquired sapience iirc
cause rank 0 means you're still stuck in the cofd version of a caul, reliving your death/unable to accept that it's happened
i think that's generally the bar for sapience, for ghosts/goetia at least, dunno if there's anything specifying something like that for spirits or angels(or anything else)
clear delta
There's a difference between a spirit or goetia's sapience and like, what humans have
Spirits are limited by their concepts, being focused on them and the hunger for essence
Goetia are also obsessed with the thoughts they represent.
And of course, they don't prioritize others over their wants
There's that Boon you can get that seems to change the minds of ephemeral beings. Allowing them to care more and prioritize the needs of others
grave gulch
question
would a ghoul trigger paradox? if not...would they instantly become a sleepwalker if they ran out of vamp juice?
empty patrol
would a ghoul trigger paradox? if not...would they instantly become a sleepwalke...
Iirc, no. Ghouls sense of consensus is broken and become sleepwalkers
I don't think I've read about what happens if they survive being off blood but I assume of they survive it they become "mortal" against and thus trigger paradox as normal
heady kestrel
would a ghoul trigger paradox? if not...would they instantly become a sleepwalke...
no idea on World Of Darkness
but all splatted people are Sleepwalkers in chronicles
velvet sparrow
no idea on World Of Darkness
but all splatted people are Sleepwalkers in chronic...
What happens if they lose their splat?
empty patrol
You're noooooot really meant to cross the streams too hard in wod generally
heady kestrel
What happens if they lose their splat?
Probably still a sleepwalker? if you remember at least
It dependss on the situation
high current
anybody with a half-splat(ghoul/wolfblooded/etc) or better is automatically a sleepwalker; same for kinfolk and co in owod i think
and as far as i understand, yeah, once you become a sleepwalker, you can't go back to sleep
owod its just kind of a thing of 'oh, yeah, magic exists, cool' forever after, cofd the metaphysical explanation iirc is that sleepers have shard of the abyss in their soul, becoming anything except a sleeper(gaining a supernatural merit/any endowment from Hunter, or any form of splat other than Hunter basically) yeets that shard so you stop provoking paradox
Hunters, despite being a splat, are not automatically sleepwalkers. Not until they actually gain some sort of supernatural ability themselves.
(or at least take the Sleepwalker merit)
empty patrol
Hunter the reckoning "hunted" mages usually via "carbomb" or "sniper rifle from really far away"
high current
oHunters are sleepwalkers by owod definitions 
edges are a supernatural ability, however minor they may be, iirc
empty patrol
Oh yeah they didn't invoke paradox which was why they had to be kind of extreme
high current
not necessarily the case in H5, but, we don't have an M5 book to really address that change if it has happened
empty patrol
Yeah literally the only m5 mage insight we have is just Gunshop
high current
(the most we have is that H5 hunters aren't given any sort of blessing by the Messengers like previous editions)
empty patrol
Which has made a lot of people very mad (though anecdotally nobody played old hunter in my groups)
clear delta
owod its just kind of a thing of 'oh, yeah, magic exists, cool' forever after, c...
Yeah, all sorts of supernatural abilities have a connection to the soul
The changes awakening causes to the soul incinerate most of them, causing loss of those merits
high current
afaik its only half-splats that can stick around post-Awakening; ghouls and wolfblooded at least, unsure about any others (also just partly unsure what the others are called except for stigmatics from demon and proximi from mage; proximi explicitly do not keep their shit when they awaken iirc, stimatics might keep their stigmataglitches but probably nothing else?)
granted, not sure if a ghoul would keep any disciplines they learned or just the blood bond effect
heady kestrel
afaik its only half-splats that can stick around post-Awakening; ghouls and wolf...
The Changeling one are called the Fey Touched and they are people who went into the Hedge to fulfill a promise to a changeling
grave gulch
Im having some fun ideas for Mage
grave gulch
beard
mighty zephyr
absolutely not
mighty zephyr
Gehenna War and Shattered Nation mow availabibble....
high current
get more 
grave gulch
i shall not
radiant marsh
I have so many d10s
Even a pile of Promethean: the Created D10s that I got from a promotion or something
mighty zephyr
The Shattered Nation book fucking whips actually
mighty zephyr
Lots of worldbuilding and good lore about the old Nation, cool mechanics, a lot of fleshing out and tone-setting
W5 goes down so much smoother than Legacy goddamn
grave gulch
i see
mighty zephyr
Legendary Rites where you can put on little plays for story and roll bonuses, rules for dueling including Games, Rap-Battles, and staredowns
grave gulch
werewolf rap battles?
wowie
Sometimes i forget that werewolves also have a life outside of their wolf life
mighty zephyr
They do now
short quiver
warrior cultures featuring rap battles is traditional
grave gulch
so i could probably be some werewolf's touchstone without even knowing they were a werewolf
mighty zephyr
Yup
chilly vault
In some cultures trash talk before a fight or duel was customary and the essentially the polite thing to do, because it let everyone get nice and mad and ready to hurt or kill each other
dawn creek
Even a pile of Promethean: the Created D10s that I got from a promotion or somet...
envy
PtC is one of my favorite CofD games tbh
clear delta
I love magic cast through stage plays
grave gulch
I really like crossovers 
grave gulch
do the wizards who give themselves up to the abyss trigger paradox? @chilly vault
chilly vault
Depends. They might have ways around it if they're part of a particular legacy
high current
signs of sorcery has a chapter on scelesti iirc
chilly vault
I think there might be Evil Wizard methods of mitigating paradox?
heady kestrel
do the wizards who give themselves up to the abyss trigger paradox? <@2887786060...
yes they do BUT they can make other people experience it instead
is the trick
grave gulch
So they could just trigger one and throw it around like hot potato?
midnight grotto
Odd question but, what Rank do you think a spirit that embodied the Appalachian Mountain Range be?
mighty zephyr
Celestine
The Appalachian Mountain Range is older than Saturn's Rings
Over a billion years
radiant marsh
Either way. Definitely in the 'this is outside the scope of dice rolls' power level
mighty zephyr
Yer
grave gulch
for my first bad guy i think i'll have a wizard who's obsessed with dragging new mages into the abyss, to force them to see what she saw in there
grave gulch
i'm still thinking about it i'm thinking maybe they are fascinated by the abyss in some way
empty patrol
<:vicksyAww:1191819830714703922> for my first bad guy i think i'll have a wizar...
Tzeentch and his pet two headed bird
grave gulch
bird
open roost
this is what the anarchs are to me
radiant marsh
Tzeentch and his pet two headed bird
TBF, he wasn't two-headed until Tzeentch tossed him in the pit
grave gulch
@high current what was the book that had guidelines to begin a game without a mage order?
high current
technically the core book has that, you can just start without status or high speech
but Signs of Sorcery has guidelines for starting fresh from Awakening
(or Awakening in-play)
grave gulch
i want that 
thank you
clear delta
Hilda is such good thyrsus inspiration
World filled with strange animals and spirits
clear delta
A werewolf the forsaken video game would go hard
Reminded of that spirit general taking over werewolf packs to build an army. And who can't tell too many truths or lies in sequence
And its backstory is that it used to be a lowly fire spirit in a factory
radiant marsh
It would
I am forever salty that the only WtA video game we ever got was...Rather shit.
Not counting the visual novel stuff
clear delta
Spirits are such cool creatures
clear delta
I am forever salty that the only WtA video game we ever got was...Rather shit.
Werewolf just gets shafted
grave gulch
lets say a mind spell got hit by paradox
and the spell changes
could that result in a mind switcheroooo?
high current
pour one out for heart of gaia, the 90s/early 00s wta game that was basically ready to go but got cancelled 
high current
could that result in a mind switcheroooo? <:vicksySip:996566522828968088>
paradox cant change the specific effect they're going for, just reach effects and stuff like that
like, paradox generates its own reach, which the st can spend on the usual reach effects(either as they are or to undo reach the mage has spent), or on the specific paradox reach effects/anomalies(pg 116)
in theory, if you generate 5+ paradox reach, you could do a mind swithceroo/freaky friday style thing with the abyssal entity that gets summoned, but otherwise the spell being cast would need to already be doing something along the same lines anyways
high current
i have an answer 
lets hope they match
grave gulch
ok so rote spells...you get 3 rote spells right? i remember something about them being rolled with your stats right? can you explain them to me again?
high current
you get 3 rotes if you're part of an order, iirc; they let you treat your arcanum as 5 for Reach purposes, and you add a chosen skill to the roll
so eg, if you have gnosis 1, life 3, medicine 3, you could cast Knit and the roll would be 7 dice before yantras or spell factors
grave gulch
OH so since we starting without orders no rote spells
high current
and you'd have 3 free reach, so you could cast it instantly(-1), heal 1 lethal damage per potency(-1), and grant a point of willpower(-1)
if you're starting with the newly awakened mage template from Signs of Sorcery then no, they wouldn't get any rotes yet
they have the ability to learn them, and can also declare a spell as a Praxis by spending 1 willpower while casting it
i was wrong btw, you still start with 3 rotes with the default template even without an order, it's just without an order you don't have specific rote skills(which doesnt really matter much anyways)
grave gulch
got it
chilly vault
could that result in a mind switcheroooo? <:vicksySip:996566522828968088>
FWIW, while the mechanics don't cover stuff like that, the lore has various examples of paradox that don't function under the game rules. In particular when lots of mages casting lots of different spells are involved, paradox in the lore can get weird.
clear delta
The GOTV opening fiction
clear delta
Beasts having Hives kinda makes me think of an invasion of astral bugs
Just tearing into the physical and making it amenable to their presence
Werewolves just think they're hosts at first
Then stuff gets trippy
clear delta
Oh, that's kinda the wasp hosts
grave gulch
@chilly vault i see, someone told me that abyssal titlts can have the kind of crazy i'm looking for
clear delta
You could make the wasp woman with failed aspirations more sympathetic
grave gulch
Whats GOTV Wax?
clear delta
I meant the guardians of the veil book
grave gulch
Oooh
grave gulch
Is a Fae big enough of a deal for it to strike a deal with an exarch?
I was thinking to have something like this for mine: The Exarch of the Gate made a deal with a Gentry who recently lost a lot of power not o ly that many of it's playthings have escaped and are now under the protection of some mages who are studying these changelings
The exarch of the gate would then reach out to this fae 
offering it a title that would help it not only get back on top but also recover it's playthings
Catch to it being an abyssal title and the thing would then start causing problems 
radiant marsh
Beasts having Hives kinda makes me think of an invasion of astral bugs
Real Shadowrun Hours
RIP Chicago
clear delta
There's like four bug Hosts in werewolf the forsaken
Spiders that like structure abd thicjen the gauntlet
Radio abd nightmares wasps trying to revive their divine self, but the ritual can only fail and cause disasters
Termites that feed on the meaning of places and make them spiritually dead, they love following orders and make pacts, but lose memories and identity over time. They must be reminded regularly of their pacts, or they become null
Eternally hungry locusts
Oh, fifth type. Crabs in tokyo. Werewolves gave up on freeing the areas they took
radiant marsh
There are also Leech hosts
I forget what they do.
They're in the 2e night horrors book
clear delta
The lampreys? They love blood
They wanna open the gates to the blood dimension
They do deals for sacrifices, and for using your power and influence in their favor
They fill the gauntlet with blood, drenching you if you pass, and covering your eyes and nose you peer across it
They can swim and stay in it, and attack both sides
The blood dimension is connected to those bloody sections of the gauntlet, abd mess with human sanity
grave gulch
THERE'S TOAD HOSTS?!
clear delta
Yes. They're shards of a demonic Pangaean
grave gulch
I love them already
I wanna use em
Tell me more
What they do
What do they look like giant demonic toads?
clear delta
Jackass politicians abd wealthy people, with distended bellies. They like to pick the bodies of the wealthy
May mutate further if the consume more Shards, gaining slit orange bulging eyes, inflated throats, more frog-like limbs
They're being of vice. Sloth, gluttony, greed
grave gulch
oh...those arent fun toads....
clear delta
They like to humiliate wolves
The example one uses his aura to weaken their rage, and basically has werewolves scared of their violence or regretful over killing become his "pets"
He also accumulates magical items, and figured out a trick with his powers to activate any item
clear delta
Yeah
grave gulch
Imma just have a toad themed wizard instead
radiant marsh
Pretty much the only Host type that isn't automatically horrible are the Crow Hosts.
And they still hollow people out...It's just after they do that, their entire thing is watching
To the point where when Crow Hosts show up it's taken as an indication, to those who are aware of them, that bad shit is about to happen.
Because that's what attracts them. Not to cause it, but to observe it.
clear delta
Ome spider host (azlu) developed more individuality and wants to do things beyond her instinct
Unfortunately that involves experiment with magical architecture affect the gauntlet and dreams, and may lead to a city trapoed in dreams
radiant marsh
Oh, also Wolf Hosts are a thing
clear delta
What's their deal again?
radiant marsh
Basically feeding on fear and scaring people to death
The Adarasharu or 'Hungry Teeth'
clear delta
The termites are terrifying bu funny too
Deeply senile monsters
Who build things out of waste
One host has his body filled with wood and poop to fill it out
He gives tours both because his kind makes deals to guide people that they try to convince to come to their lair, and because it helps keep stuff in his memory
mighty zephyr
In 2e wolf hosts are just called Uratha
radiant marsh
The wolf hosts ARE from 2e
Wait never mind
They're from Wolfsbane
I thought they were from Shunned by the Moon
mighty zephyr
Was gonna say
clear delta
Buf werewolves don't voltron into stronger wolves
mighty zephyr
Buf werewolves don't voltron into stronger wolves
The Cull says otherwise
clear delta
I do not know that
spice abyss
I love the Fungal Host
grave gulch
🍄
clear delta
What do crab hosts do, besides hold territory wolves can't get back?
grave gulch
I was thinking to have something like this for mine: The Exarch of the Gate made...
@chilly vault @mighty zephyr @clear delta @orchid void could i maybe have your feedback on this idea pls?
chilly vault
There’s a good collection of hooks there
The gentry getting in over its head, the Seers getting in over their heads, the combined threat of the two and the fact that villainous factions not normally associated with certain player factions may now be paying attention to them, the contentious relationship between the pentacle mages and changelings (especially if the mages want to study them), and of course the ever-present danger that a mage gets too interested and does something extremely foolish and hubristic
I think that’s solid
clear delta
Yeah. And course they will wonder about the Gate's angle, but Exarchs' plans are often mysterious and beyond our capacity to investigate
grave gulch
thank you friends
clear delta
I feel in such a Host mood
grave gulch
what kind of host?
clear delta
Any host from forsaken
heady kestrel
Weird question but has world of darkness/Chronicles of darkness ever done a pre written campaign. Or is it all just pre written campaign settings
radiant marsh
Hosts are such a cool concept
velvet sparrow
Weird question but has world of darkness/Chronicles of darkness ever done a pre ...
It has!
From my understanding they're mostly "Follow around NPCs while they do all the cool stuff" because players being cool is something that the WoD games were immensely averse to
clear delta
Weird question but has world of darkness/Chronicles of darkness ever done a pre ...
Chronicles has the night horrors books, which have a bunch of characters you may meet as enemies, and explanations for how plots with them could go
Mage has the dethroned queen adventure.
grave gulch
Is dethroned queen an npc book?
clear delta
Is dethroned queen an npc book?
The book itself is called reign of the exarchs
It comes with the dethroned queen story in five parts
Spell idea
Spirit 3 spell, weaving
Smear ephemera within the target. The target may either suffer a ban, or a deal they make is accepted by the semi-alive essence in them, which becomes agitated should the host take actions that'd break the deal
Reach: both ban and the contract effects are applied
Name idea: Parasitic decree. Appease the passenger
candid shadow
So I’ve been thinking of playing Vampire and Hunter recently
And I’ve kinda settled on two character ideas for both
For vampire the idea is a vampire who’s doing some illicit vitae selling to independent ghouls, harvesting it from the dredges of vampire society, thin bloods and sabbat and the like
For hunter a priest who’s struggling with their faith due to being unable to think of a reason god would allow such horrid things to exist, and is attempting to find the miracle of a redeemed vampire to reaffirm their faith
Essentially believing that god would not allow vampires to exist unless they could be redeemed, so if it is impossible then god must not exist
But if it is possible then god allows them to exist in order to be redeemed
short quiver
huzzah!
sour zephyr
awesome!
clear delta
Great!
grave gulch
Obrimos created a blackhole while working on a particle accelerator
grave gulch
which one of the Orders would be the most interested in studying a changeling?
heady kestrel
which one of the Orders would be the most interested in studying a changeling?
Generally I think the answer to that question is “yes”
If you just need a wizard ass wizard I tend to default to silver ladder or mysterium
high current
mainly depends on their reason for studying i think
Adamantine Arrow would study them for exploitable weaknesses or potential as weapons/allied soldiers
Guardians of the Veil would study them to figure out how the Masque works and potentially their connection to 'Arcadia'/the True Fae as an analog for the Exarchs
Mysterium would study them to figure out how the hell anything about them works at all, by far the most bookish of the orders
Silver Ladder would be interested in the workings of changeling freeholds, titles, courts, etc etc the more societal aspects of changelings
Free Council says 'new friends!', most likely to just ask the changelings questions directly as opposed to spying on them or capturing them or otherwise locking them down for intense scrutiny
grave gulch
clear delta
Every mage is terminally curious
high current
Addicted to Mysteries is the game's main theme for a reason
tardy grove
Terminally curious and there is no way a mage would face the consequences of their actions 😌
orchid void
consequences are for sleepers
she will suffer paradox soon
candid shadow
Hubris? I think you’ll find I am in fact better then the gods
clear delta
Anyone ever made the spirit world less awful in their games?
radiant marsh
Define less awful
clear delta
Less of a predatory hellscape
grave gulch
tell me about the spirit world
radiant marsh
So basically making CofD more like the WofD Umbra?
radiant marsh
<:vicksyBork:996566504311099533> tell me about the spirit world
In CofD it's an animist reflection of the physical world, with spirits representing everything from animals to emotions, to concepts.
Of course spirits grow more powerful by consuming related essence. Which can be vibes from the physical world, or it could be related spirits.
They're also very alien and have growth and spreading of their particular portfolio as their overriding concern
Like you can have a Spirit of Joy function as an antagonist because it just wants Joy. It doesn't care how or why. A drug addict getting a fix is just as much of a win for it as true love.
clear delta
A spirit of healing will like accidents, disasters and patients who never fully recover
grave gulch
Spirit mages interact with all that right? 
radiant marsh
Yes
high current
Like you can have a Spirit of Joy function as an antagonist because it just want...
actually had this exact scenario happen in my first WtF2e game kind of; our first session was basically 'hey theres a joy-claimed at a rave downtown, and she seems to be making things a little too much fun for people'
we ended up getting her to chill and became friends with her iirc
...i think this was also right around the time Ghost by Mystery Skulls blew up with that one fanmade video, cause i remember picturing her as the blue haired chick from that based on how she was described
grave gulch
blue
clear delta
Also, the books had an example that a park with too much fun resonance and spirits, and lacking in fear resonance abd spirits, becomes rather dangerous
Too reckless
high hornet
Just had my vampire game
We were doing some investigating after basically being put on house arrest for a week
I went to investigate an area where a magic ritual had previously sent me tumbling into the abyss
(don't ask)
Unfortunately, I found that it was being investigated already
by the Children of the Sun
which is like a hunter/mage association
Due to circumstances I had walked in alone (Still don't know why the other player went with not coming along but ah well) and basically I played bullshit with the hunters I found
because my dude is still very much path of the human, and didn't want to murder humans. So spent his time just sort of talking casually, then convincing people to go over with him and look at the ritual, which they were also looking at. And basically the entire time trying not to escalate shit with the hunters while they were very confused and uncertain because this was definitely the forensic team
Spoke to them for a while, pointed out some stuff about magic, they tried to capture Omar and he just bust the net open with a horrific transformation and fled into the darkness.
the mage then waited for me to sit down with my buddy and explain and then teleported next to our car
and was actually really cool
generally didn't trust us but was very "well you didn't murder everyone..."
clear delta
There's a werewolf lodge focused on folklore stories but for some reason only American ones
high hornet
That is a shame
I enjoyed the Hunter the Parenting talking about local north english folklore
mighty zephyr
There's a werewolf lodge focused on folklore stories but for some reason only Am...
I mean outside of a few Pillar Lodges, they're usually Localized
The Lodge of the Gargoyle for instance is only really active in the American North-East
clear delta
Oh, I see
clear delta
Okay, its name is the lodge of the crossroads
Its focus is on how stories affect humans' relationship to the shadow
Abd it's said the founder met the Devil, who messes with the luck of the lodge and leads them to strange events
mighty zephyr
Average Uratha reaction:
takes shot of whiskey
"So the Devil's real too, huh?"
high hornet
Honestly my character effectively does that
keeps making casual "oh yeah and you're off fucking with mummies and- are mummies real?" because he's tied to a group of pretty important people
The answer is usually yes
Reality is weird
grave gulch
what's a good way to get a party together 
i'm trying to figure that out aaa
i was thinking runewalk but now idk
high hornet
What's the party made of? Are they mages? Vampires?
grave gulch
mages
high hornet
Hmmmm, can be difficult. maybe just giving them all pieces to a puzzle and having it where they can only solve it working together
grave gulch
that's sort of what the runewalk would be
someone told me to disguise it as a pub crawl
i wonder what kind of pub puzzle i could do!
high hornet
Ohhh have you ever seen the movie "The World's End"?
It very much has that kind of vibe to it. But they're not mages they're middle aged men
high hornet
It's got some real sad themes but it's pretty good.
It's about a guy who, when he was younger, never finished a legendary pub crawl in his home town. So he invites all his friends back to do it again years later, but this time try and complete it. But something is very strange in the town.
It's one of the Cornetto trilogy, which is Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz, and The World's End. It's considered the weakest of the three but they're all very good, and very british.
The films aren't related by story, but have Simon Pegg and Nick Frost playing main characters, and share many of the same cast members, and are directed by Simon Pegg and Edgar Wright
empty patrol
That movie hit me a little hard because I have a friend who had pretty much the similar arc, down to wanting to relive high-school and not really growing past it
The resentment that we all kind out of outgrew him. I get that it's disjointed but Pegg was really good at portraying a pretty specific kind of friend
short quiver
I really like it
I don't like seeing it labelled the weakest of the trilogy although I'm not sure which one I'd pick instead
...and I get the "disjointed" criticism but I honestly felt that, of all the Trilogy, it blends the genres together most cleanly. We all love Hot Fuzz but the transition from cozy small-town murder mystery to Baysian action nonsense probably stripped the clutch changing gears like that
World's End begins about a guy who never managed to grow up came back to his hometown and how he and it have changed, and it stays about that through everything else that happens
high hornet
Oh I agree with you Insomniac, I actually love it as a movie. The problem it has is that it's in a competition with Hot Fuzz and Shaun of the Dead.
In many ways it hits me the hardest
Honestly, Skully, highly recommend all 3. The World's End is just the one most tied to your idea. But if you have the time and the desire, watching all 3 can give you some amazing insights into character driven writing and editing. And editing shouldn't be looked over for running a game.
You control the pace of that story.
grave gulch
high hornet
Have you seen any of the trilogy Skully?
high hornet
I do suggest watching them all. Very fun times.
high current
it can work but it's worth noting that mages have a lot of tools for helping solve stuff like that
like, 1 dot in mind, time, death, or life can give easily leads if the killer isn't also a mage that tried to cover their tracks
grave gulch
The killer is a mage
mighty zephyr
You gotta go a little above and beyond for Mage stuff
It's not "This person died!"
It's "We're all here for this party. No one actually remembers who invited us here or who the house belongs to."
high current
(read peoples' minds, look at the moment the murder happened, identify the cause of death/potentially follow blood trails or stuff like that, respectively; death and life can kinda stand in for each other depending on context)
grave gulch
My players are moros, moros, mastigos and obrimos mages
high current
the obrimos might not contribute much to the investigation, depending on what their third arcanum is, but the moroi and mastigos have good tools for solving a murder even if they only have 1 dot in mind/death
worth noting, if the killer used magic to do the deed, that makes things more difficult for death 1 to identify what actually happened, and if all suspects are mages, it stands to reason that they'd have decent Resolve or some sort of spell from either themselves or a cabalmate to make mind reading more difficult
and if the killer did use magic to commit the murder, that makes it a Mystery
grave gulch
yeah i was thinking i could have an Acanthus mage be the killer
Have them frame someone else for the murder
high current
depending on their gnosis and arcana ratings, that could work out very well Time 2 is all it takes to make postcognition more difficult on a given scene
grave gulch
thinking the person who's been framed could be a former seer to the throne too, people will be suspicious towards them 
i do need to figure out how to give the Obrimos something to do in this mistery tho
maybe the victim was an obrimos themselves and had some kind of experiment going on? have them recreating the experiment give some sort of hint?
rare swallow
I'm reading a book that's completely unrelated to WoD, but there's a passage of world building in it that talks about selkies being extinct due to over hunting for their skins and now I'm 100% thinking about a WoD selkie skin underground market
clear delta
Check out the skin thieves book
grave gulch
wait a fucking minute
what if i just threw in my mages into the same apartment building? 
is that too lazy?
i think i'll do that to at least 2 of them
high hornet
Yeah you can have a few linked differently
apartment definitely works
and honestly the beginning is often the least important part
as long as you find a way to slap them together like dolls and make them interact
grave gulch
i'm having a few ideas
like the murder mistery, one of the characters is a detective, i could have it happen in the apartment building and that's a way to bring 3 of them to the same place
clear delta
Also make them part of the web of relationships involved in the crime
grave gulch
neighbours and maybe a relative of the 4th player ?
clear delta
Are they suspects? Witnesses? Just connected to the daily lives of the victim, suspects and witnesses? Or perhaps a rekative of someone in the previous categories?
grave gulch
so next door neighbor of the 2 players who already live at the building, the third one is coming to investigate and the victim is a relative of the 4th
how does that sound?
velvet sparrow
Coming up with a new Vampire (Masquerade) character and
What're some good ideas for the Sabbat to be holding as leverage for someone to spy on the Camarilla/Anarchs for them
grave gulch
Serpente!
🐍
You should have a ghouled snake
Granted doing that to a snake might be seen as evil
grave gulch
hmmm
so i think that the apartment building where the murder has happened should be something that happened a little while ago
something the police is about to give up trying to figure out and so they call in the detective
high hornet
It doesn't take too long for the police to give up sometimes
Or you could do the opposite, to put pressure on
have it so the murder has been not reported yet but it gives your players a time limit
And if they can't get to the bottom of this quickly the cops will come in and stomp all over the place
grave gulch
That does sound good but then i no longer have a reason for the detective mage to be there
velvet sparrow
And if they can't get to the bottom of this quickly the cops will come in and st...
(And probably looking for the easiest person they can pin it on instead of putting in the work to find whoever actually did it)
grave gulch
Still brainstorming a bit
so i'm thinking i could use the murder mistery as a way to introduce paradox
Maybe it was an accident, some other guy awakened and tried to show a friend a cool trick
Paradox ended up killing the sleeper friend
high hornet
Hmmm, I'm not sure you need a massive twist for your first one
but give a shadowy background influence maybe?
Someone they want to chase in the future
grave gulch
That could work
high hornet
you wanna give them a win on the first one
give them something that makes them feel like they did good as a team
but something in the background that is a spooky shadow that makes them wanna do things
clear delta
I read recently "And be a villain" by rex stout, and it has a nice exampe
It mentions a mastermind called Zach, whom I imagine is faced in later books
||Zach is running a large blackmailing operation, that accidentally instigated the murder||
||He has his agent invent lies about targets and send out letters to people around them. They say they'll stop if the target subscribes to certain a magazine or newspaper that's published by Zach's goons. They only ask that the subscriptions go for like a year, and then the target is free to do whatever||
||However, some times the lies end up matching actual secrets, and one target was willing to kill for their secret. So, the man publishing the magazine they were told to buy, was poisoned, while making it seem like he was killed in place of someone else||
grave gulch
Who are the wizards who like to make people experiencr paradox?
orchid void
Who are the wizards who like to make people experiencr paradox?
Scelestus
Priests of the Abyss who have walked a spiral path to a ziggurats nadir~
clear delta
So a thyrsus' sight is based on the roles everything takes in relation to each other, right? Defined often by instinct and archetypes
radiant marsh
First Wyld West session was yesterday. Went well. ST did it a neat way. Every character gets a solo intro that starts to weave into everyone else's.
heady kestrel
Random idea for a set of silver ladder legacies: Oracle cults that make elaborate headcanons about the Watch tower builders
clear delta
Doesn't that already exist?
I think there are two Oracle legacies
One is the star obsessed guys who were angry when sleepers proved they were wrong about stars, and they claim to serve an Oracle, though now I realize they don't claim an association to a specific watchtower
The other legacy tries to dovine the will of the oracles (seers of the throne behavior huh)
heady kestrel
The other legacy tries to dovine the will of the oracles (seers of the throne be...
hey, its all chill if your god doesn't suck
versed zodiac
me when a really cool/fun idea comes out of nowhere and demolishes my careful plans
grave gulch
for sure
grave gulch
ok here's the idea
the players are all stuck in a time loop
everytime they try to leave they are reset
everytime they try to enter the apartment by force they are also reset
they need a certain combination to get inside
these will be hinted to them by certain events that happen during the time loop itself
broken elevator so there's people moving a certain amount of boxes to the upper floors
they always drop a box but at a specific floor
a broken grandfather clock always makes it's noise at the wrong hour, which is 2 pm
and those are some ideas i'm still trying to figure out something for each mage
spice abyss
I have a murder mystery that is perfect to drop on a mage, for the record. Let them join the list of people who can solve the Kira case. 😛
spice abyss
Ah. Are you familiar with Death Note?
grave gulch
is it the one with the creepy apple eating guy?
spice abyss
Yes!
grave gulch
a bit yeh
spice abyss
But yeah. Some shithead gets ahold of a thing that works in the right way, Mages find a Mystery, antics ensue.
The rules of the Death Note are simple:
This note will not take effect unless the writer has the person's face in their mind when writing his/her name. Therefore, people sharing the same name will not be affected.
If the cause of death is written within the next 40 seconds of writing the person's name, it will happen.
If the cause of death is not specified, the person will simply die of a heart attack.
After writing the cause of death, details of the death should be written in the next 6 minutes and 40 seconds.```tbh
the basic idea of a time loop trap is great for Mage
just give the players plenty of enrichment in their enclosure (i.e. give them plenty of environments and NPCs to talk to or they'll get bored)
grave gulch
Im very excited for it
grave gulch
Aaah i need to figure out a couple more npcs
sour zephyr
awesome!!
high hornet
Huzzah!
grave gulch
Urgh
I need help
A player has interpreted a rule in a way that is causing me a headache
They say there is no room for interpretation and is just a fact
But i already asked very experienced players about it and i know he's full of shit
I even discussed it with another player
I gotta shut them down and i just know this is going to cause conflicts
high current
what's the rule and how do they interpret it? 
grave gulch
ok so
they think that with mind 3 space 2 they can store things in their minds
they think that with mind weaving they can alter physical money into mental money and with space 2 ruiling they can move something from a physical pocket to a mental one
mighty zephyr
They also need Matter if anything
grave gulch
yes
that's the domain of matter
and i wouldnt say that it being mental or physical is a property of the object 
their argument is that it's still money so weaving applies
but that's like saying the drawing of a gun is still a gun
spice abyss
Yeah, that's going to need some matter
grave gulch
oh yeah 
like i asked a lot of folks who actually had experience with the game before
and not one person has said that you could do that
i already sent a message saying that i'm not going to allow it
but i already know this is going to be annoying
dude says "the books says i can" when like....everybody else i asked also read this book
and they are saying no
clear delta
He needs a talk about his attitude
grave gulch
it will happen if he offers further resistance
i just followed someone else's advice and basically said
"i'm not allowing it, i'll not elaborate any further, drop it."
hopefully he'll just be upset and the game will carry on
versed zodiac
Isn’t the Mind+Space combo non-dollar-store teleportation
Teleportation for adult wizards with jobs and shit to do
grave gulch
i think so yeah, teleporting your mind
tracking minds
etc
phew
he backed down
i wanna play skul the hero slayer
and some ice cream
high current
yeah i think at best if they wanted to only use mind and space to store shit in their mind, they'd need mind 4 to open an iris to their oneiros, and that's all they'd need, but adding space 3 would let them 'teleport' something in/out without actually reaching through the iris
important to note, space 2 doesn't let you teleport stuff--at best, it can bend space to allow scrying or redirect where something is going, but not actually change something's location
in the classic example used to explain space fuckery and teleportation, space 2(ruling) is folding the piece of paper, but space 3(fraying or weaving, depending on context) is needed to actually punch a hole from one point to another
clear delta
Idea for a cofd spirit based on touhou
A mysterious rank 4 spirit, "Flowers of the four seasons" frequents the fields of [insert town here], visiting fields depending on the season. Her main home is a beautiful field of sunflowers, that mortals know not to disturb.
She rides a mortal gardener who's aware of the Shadow, and agreed to serve as her vessel. The spirit is unfailingly polite and cheery in her walks into town, yet the mortals are aware she's dangerous and dread her presence.
This ancient spirit is willing to converse with those who observe proper respect and possesses a surprising amount of knowledge and stories.
However, she shows a surprising amount of battle lust in spite of seemingly not having combat as one of her concepts. She may trick strong entities into seeing her as the cause of some problem to start a fight, and likes to provoke people.
Has come upon possession of an Artefact in the form of a parasoul her human carries
grave gulch
yeah i think at best if they wanted to only use mind and space to store shit in ...
wouldnt it need to be turned into something else to actually be allowed to occupy that space?
high current
mind 4 lets you enter the astral physically iirc
i'm at work though so i cant actually check my books right now 
high current
if i remember 
clear delta
mind 4 lets you enter the astral physically iirc
I'm leaning towards not. Never seen this spell, portals into the astral make you leave your body behind
And the spell to take astral objects into reality, shown in astral realms book, is matter 4 mind 4
high current
i tend towards not relying on 1e books to figure out 2e mechanics, cause 2e got rid of the whole 'locking more powerful versions of effects gained at lower ratings behind higher ratings'
that said, matter 4/mind 4 does make sense for 'making something from the astral real'
and is what i'd tend towards if i'm wrong on mind 4 alone being enough
(same arcana required both directions)
grave gulch
will do!
acoustic plaza
Lore wise I meant
mighty zephyr
Lore wise it's also the best
mighty zephyr
Weirdly enough this is happening in the WoD discord too so I get to use this image
grave gulch
big wolf
acoustic plaza
They did bring back the Nazi faction tho
grave gulch
what kind of territory would changelings occupy? the book "fall of london" gave me some good spots for werewolves and vamps for London, and the mage book gave mage spots
since i wanna use changelings i wanted to figure something out for them
mighty zephyr
They did bring back the Nazi faction tho
They did not
The Cult of Fenris are zealot extremists and are not Nazis
grave gulch
like werewolves usually stay at parks and other green areas
acoustic plaza
They did not
They didn’t?
I remember somewhere that they just fused the Durandal (og Nazi werewolves) with the entire Git
mighty zephyr
Nope
An Editor during the production of the edition wanted to do that
it did not make it to final print
Also the Swords of Heimdall is the camp
acoustic plaza
Ahhhhh
I’m dumb
Has wod done anything with the Russian revolution as a time period?
It could be a neat crossover idea
acoustic plaza
The Soviets were apparently a big Brujah thing
You’d think they’d support the black guards more lmao
high current
okay yeah having now remembered and looked at the books @grave gulch
to put something into a pocket in their mind/oneiros, a Mage would need Matter 4/Mind 4 minimum; add Space 3 and you can teleport something in/out of that pocket instead of having to reach in yourself
that's my reckoning at least
fair jungle
The Cult of Fenris are zealot extremists and are not Nazis
It's always morally right to punch a CoF member in the face /half-joke
grave gulch
thanks Rats!
high current
grave gulch
i went to a changeling the lost chat so they could help me with lore!
they told me to read a book called the Hedge cause it has lots of crossover potential
grave gulch
travelling through our world causes harm to a True fae could the fae with the abyssal title traverse the abyss i wonder?
chilly vault
I suspect it would manage to be bad for everyone
The Abyss has a way of causing outcomes that suck omnidirectionally
grave gulch
what even makes you go through that route?
that sounds insane
you can already do whatever the heck with your magic
what else could u want?
clear delta
There are limits to magic
Also
Abyss is addictive
And starting out, being an abyss mage doesn't suck as much.
You're just casting befouled rotes
Things suck by the point you're swearing at a ziggurat
chilly vault
Powerful people make extremely foolish decisions all the time
grave gulch
i see
clear delta
Also, it's validating
The abyssal paths say "the world sucks, nothing to be done about it, you have no personal responsibility"
And you can be smugly disdainful at people who do believe in good and make an effort for the world
orchid void
i see <:vicksyHmm:996566512431288390>
The normal limits of magic are subverted and befouled, as all things that touch the Abyss are, this makes them pliable for those desperate enough to bargain with it.
If there’s a rule, the Abyss has an illustration of why the rule exists in the worst way possible
“Why is long-term mind control bad?”
“parasitic brain spiders spontaneously generate in victims of long-term mind control”
grave gulch
I read about abyssal spiders
One of my players will have an infestation of those soon
chilly vault
In general, it's safe to think of the Abyss as the cosmic force of Human Folly Causes Things To Get Worse In Ways Far Beyond One's Expectations
The tendency of one person's cruelty and stupidity to bite everyone in the ass
short quiver
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/513yQzFtBWL._SY580_.jpg
You know how sometimes when you're drifting off to sleep you feel that jolt, like you were falling and caught yourself at the last second? It's nothing to be concerned about, it's usually just the parasite adjusting its grip.
high current
John Dies at the End and its sequels are solid Mage inspiration btw, particularly for Abyss shit
but the Sauce is basically just Temporary Awakening Juice
high current
for reference, the Sauce-induced effects in these scenes are
Time 3(something similar to Shifting Sands with plenty of Reach to go back many scenes), future John calling current Dave to warn him in the first clip
the pills becoming flies is like Matter 4/Life 4, but ||i'd consider the sauce a manifest supernal/abyssal entity depending on your plans for it||
Time 3(Acceleration) or Mind 3(Augment Mind) for Dave's brain blast
Mind 4(Psychic Projection)/Space 3+(Co-Location or similar) for being 'no longer in the trailer'(his body is still there, but his mind left)
technically what happens in the ammo factory is just Dave using Space 3 to teleport in there, then Mind 2 to whisper into his head or Mind 1 to very briefly let him see astral twilight; ||him distracting that dude later saves him from being shot because the dude missed a fucked up bullet that ends up in a gun someone tries to fire at Dave||
grave gulch
i think i could have my players venture through the hedge at some point
i'm taking a look at one of the changeling books that some folks who play it suggested
they said it had crossover value so it would be good for me!
rare swallow
since i wanna use changelings i wanted to figure something out for them
For changelings, think about clubs, schools, art galleries etc.
Studios
grave gulch
rare swallow
They would also have some sewer friends
Which are basically literally just the changeling Nosferatu pretty much
(they literally fill in the same niche as ugly solitary spymasters but they see and talk to ghosts)
grave gulch
i see
rare swallow
But yeah, they'd probably have a… freehold? I forget what they're called, but it's basically their centre of operation and where the noble resides and rules from (basically like an Elysium but it's magic)
(as in it's literally magic, the place is different from the inside than outside and only visible by those who can interact with the dream)
Pick any building with local history and it fits right in
grave gulch
london has lots of those i probably have a good selection to choose from
rare swallow
Yeah
Changelings would also generally hang around places garou hang around
In nature
Because of wellsprings
grave gulch
think the Garou would be okay with that? 
rare swallow
Which are uh I forget what garou call them
Place of power™
Changelings and Garou are generally in amicable terms
They don't hate each other
Tho the nazi garou detest changeling royalty?
For some reason
grave gulch
i feel like the nazi garou would hate everybody since they used to be with the get
rare swallow
Pretty much
grave gulch
Changelings and Garou are generally in amicable terms
that's neat
rare swallow
But yeah the CtD20 book says that the get specifically kill Sidhe (royalty) on sight
Also hunters might consider hunting changelings if they're Unseelie as Unseelie tend to be dicks
Imagine abusive art gallery owners or whatever
People who make creative people burn out
They're all about harvesting as much glamour from mortals as possible with 0 care
grave gulch
what do the Unseelie do?
ooh
i can see why you would want to take one of those down
clear delta
(as in it's literally magic, the place is different from the inside than outside...
Fox is doing cofd changeling, lost. Not dreaming
rare swallow
Aah
grave gulch
i'm still interested in the lore
rare swallow
Ignore everything I said
grave gulch
keep talking julia
rare swallow
Aah I see
grave gulch
keep talking 
rare swallow
Well here's a bunch of CtD20 info if you ever want to add fae to H5 as targets lol
grave gulch
that sounds like something that would be fun! most folks expect a werewolf or a vampire, but a fae? hehe chance for me to be evil gm just like with the werebat
rare swallow
But yeah uh unseelie aren't like evil coded (they're not the Sabbat of Changelings if that makes sense), but they are generally all about super independence
0 chivalry, harvest all the glamour you want, no masters kinda deal
grave gulch
not necessarily evil but could end up doing lots of nasty stuff i imagine
rare swallow
Yeah
grave gulch
does harvesting that glamour do any harm to humans?
rare swallow
Depends on how it's done
There's a type of harvesting called rhapsody that literally destroys a person's willingness to continue creating things afterwards
After being cranked up with magic stuff to produce a masterpiece
I think it's probably easier to use nightmare fae as targets lol (because they're all about the kid snatching stuff)
Anyways rant over from me
rare swallow
Yeah
grave gulch
Kid snatching? Yeah that sounds like a good quarry
rare swallow
And the cool thing is you get to throw whacky magic akin to Mage magic on your players
rare swallow
The CtD20 magic system is fun I like it
grave gulch
Also from what i know
Usually with fae ya need to be clever
Brute force doesnt help much
And that's also fun
grave gulch
ya know
instead of the whole True Fae cursed by the abyss
i think i'll just have a huntsman show up
one who's built to handle mages, since it's trying to take the changelings being protected by the wizards
and then i'll focus more on mages
high current
i recommend the show Grimm if you want some inspiration for Changelings btw
it's technically about a Hunter dealing with people who might as well be Changelings; the show calls them Wesen, and they're essentially just 'whatever breed of half-human supernatural thing we need to make up for this episode's monster-of-the-week', but frequently inspired by grimm faerie tales
they're also not all evil though; that first one is definitely on the antagonistic side, but the werewolf-like dude in the second one is actually one of the main characters(introduced in the first episode while the main main dude is still figuring out all this wild stuff)
grave gulch
clear delta
A Wesen couple is friends with the main character
high current
there's like 6 wesen who hang around the main character over the course of the series(or are at least in his social circle; one is around from the beginning but it takes a bit before she actually meets the main dude, and a further 2 start out as human but become wesen at some point)
grave gulch
Btw you folks know the huntsmen from Changeling the lost?
What would it look like if one adapted to a mage? They cant really die so they can try and try again until the mage finds out
I imagine it would be different to each kind of mage
But what is something that can be troublesome for a mage in general?
I thought forcing paradox but idk how one could do that
clear delta
Creatures from the Lower depths are also problematic for mages
grave gulch
you mean like demonic creatures? Or abyssal creatures?
Cause i could see one of these huntsmen bending one to it's will and using it as a hunting hound
clear delta
Lower depths are imcomplete worlds whose creatures hunger for something of this world, and may interact weirdly with the world
grave gulch
Ooh that would fit in an interesting way since the Huntsman are also from another world
Do any books mention these creatures?
clear delta
The book Summoners
grave gulch
I have that one
high current
the book Inferno is all about a specific Lower Depth that's meant to be the source of all the stories about hell and demons and stuff
basic concept of the lower depths is that its a collection of worlds that are each missing something, and as a result exploring is potentially very dangerous
because if you open a portal into a world that's missing the concept of life, you might just die
clear delta
Also, anything mages find that doesn't fit their map of tgr cosmology, they just declare it a Lower Depth
dusky ledge
The v5 game I'm in is getting spicyyyy
- My Tremere is in the process of finding a home for one of their touchstones, a trans kid who got kicked out by his parents. As a result, the rest of the group got to meet him and it was a VERY different side of the Tremere
- They got in a fight with the coterie's Nosferatu, who was suspicious about some (fairly minor) things they'd been doing. My Tremere was genuinely heartbroken, as they've actually been trying to make a better life for everyone. So, in an effort to show that...
- They went to the Nos's brother, a Ventrue, and the holder of his substantial debt. And they demanded to take on that burden, so he could be free.
clear delta
Victoria van gale from Hilda feels like she'd be at home in mage the awakening. Peak hubristic mage
grave gulch
For my next game of mage
I want an acanthus mage be revealed to be the cause of the time paradox within the apartments
basically...they were trying to do something big, and ended up summoning an abyssal creature who gave the mage what she wanted
But also twisted it
The creature made the time anonaly and trapped the mage at the center where the mage could relive it's happiest moments forever and ever
But the creature also started to fuse with them
@chilly vault @clear delta @orchid void @mighty zephyr tell me, how does that sound? Is that something an abyssal creature could do?
clear delta
Yes
grave gulch
Do you like the idea? what do you think?