World of Darkness

[short quiver]

yeah no this was pretty bleeding edge for the 90s

This was when you still got sidebars in the D&D books about how "he" is actually gender neutral so we're gonna keep using this, thanks

[mighty zephyr]

Not kill off, retcon

[velvet sparrow]

Oh, for RPGs, absolutely

[royal river]

yeah, that's the qualifier. aiui, ttrpgs were still mired in years upon years of gygaxian horseshit, coupled with just... the average amount of bigotry at the time. which was. Bad.

[short quiver]

"Native Americans have a deep spiritual connection with Mother Earth and Father Sky that we palefaces can never truly comprehend they're probably magic but for real" is, sure, condescending and exoticizing and racist and completely divorced from actual people of native descent but it was a) everywhere in the 90s there was a literal Disney film built around this and b) progress, seriously, this was better than it had been.

[velvet sparrow]

There was a blog post about how the lead writer of W5 was really adamant on killing off all of the-tribe-that-I-can't-remember-the-new-name-of-and-I'm-not-saying-the-old-one, written by someone brought on, no?

[short quiver]

(Also IIRC part of the reason you got this literally everywhere in the 90s was this one guy who got paid to be a cultural consultant on native American beliefs and was just making everything up?)

[royal river]

yup. j.f. sambrano is the fella who blew the whistle on that. and the asshole in question is karim muammar

[mighty zephyr]

Not the lead writer, the editor from Paradox

And this didn't make it into the book at all

[royal river]

i had no idea. that is. darkly funny-

[velvet sparrow]

Ah, my bad

[mighty zephyr]

Nothing he wanted to get in other than the Cult of Fenris are antagonistic fanatics

Which like

The Get already kinda were that

[royal river]

so the main reason why w5 came out in such a slipshod, tonally confused state is because the writers were actively being fought by the editors at several opportunities

and also bc a major corporation is too chickenshit to publish a product that unabashedly promotes ecoterrorist anticapitalism, but that's a given. paradox loves their weasel words

[mighty zephyr]

It does actively push ecoterroist anticapitaljsm

The only thing it does is talk about how not every company in the world is evil and the vast majority of people working at the corps are just normal people who don't really deserve to be ripped in half

It does get as close as possible as saying "You don't need Pentex, just kill BP."

[royal river]

i was under the impression that w5 was far less committal in its language

[mighty zephyr]

It's not

People just misrepresent a sidebar that says "companies are not inherently evil, neither really is the idea of capital. But these are quick venues to exploitation, which IS evil and should be fought"

This is literally a line in book of hungry names one sec

[royal river]

nods nods

[short quiver]

ah, here we go, Jamake Highwater
Eastern European Jewish American Jackie Marks from LA who moved to New York in 1969, started going by Jamake Highwater, and started writing books about being Native American
He was exposed by investigative journalists in 1984 but his work had already been a Newberry Award winner and the basis for a PBS documentary and was a celebrity Native American so he got hired onto places like Star Trek: Voyager into the 90s to check for cultural accuracy

really is one of those "life before Google" things that your whole career can be based on a lie, whic is found out, but unless the person offering your next job has read the article exposing you there's a good chance you can just keep going

[royal river]

holy Shit lmao

[mighty zephyr]

https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/e-1uolxU-4wAn_olNo08RPtTZLyKrs2-fxKGAJzjlEM/https/i.imgur.com/63Ck4Kz.png

This line is so good it comes out of fucking nowhere

[royal river]

that is whiplash, i love it

[mighty zephyr]

But yeah like

Idk as a person who argues for fun I genuinely am mad all the time that most of the arguments about w5 are just like

Wrong
And Lies

Like I have read this book 8 times and half the shit people assume is in it isn't

There's a lot to be genuinely critical about

But it's not what I rebuff

[royal river]

i will cop to a heavy bias on that front

[mighty zephyr]

And I will cop that I am heavily biased against every other edition because I'll be honest!
I just kinda think the bones of its lore are bad

It's not a game about being a werewolf in any recognizable form to any pop culture unlike every other splat and is instead a bunch of random cultural stereotypes practicing eugenics dressed as DnD druids

I get people like Legacy but I think for the game to thrive outside of the niche group of people still holding on it needed to be burnt down and rebuilt from scratch

(I also think Mage needs the same treatment which is something I'm gonna get doxxed over when M5 gets announced)

[short quiver]

I feel like the pop cultural core of "werewolf" is incompatible with a WoD treatment in a way most of the rest aren't.
"I got bit and now once a month I lose control and wake up with the taste of a stranger or loved one at the back of my throat" is a scenario, not a gameline.
And there is some folklore backing for werewolves as hunters of evil spirits and witches.

[mighty zephyr]

Forsaken pulled it off

[short quiver]

Forsaken is still pretty far from The Wolf Man

[mighty zephyr]

Not really!

Your rage is now much more of a ticking time bomb, a specific set of circumstances that can lead you to losing control at just the wrong moment, brutally transforming before being a hulking monstrosity that recognizes no human as anything but prey

Just pick your triggers right and build your character to shy away from the spirit and you can go as classic as you want

[royal river]

what specifically abt mage bothers u- i'm still trying to wrap my head around the setting generally

[mighty zephyr]

It's racist as hell

[royal river]

ah, yeah, that'd do it-

[mighty zephyr]

Also the Technocracy sucks because they became authors pets over time

And the setting just kinda

Does Everything and Thus Means Nothing

[spice abyss]

God I hate the Technocracy.

Not the least of which is that it's part of Brutcato's whole "Technology ruins people maaaan" bs

[royal river]

technology is when new thing, and new scary thing bad

or smth, idk

[mighty zephyr]

Technocracy should be about capitalism and innovation being tied directly to western imperialism and the American empire

"Innovation"

But it isn't

It's funny space men laser guns

[clear delta]

And according to what I've seen people say about them, the setting makes them right?

Don't feel like reading through the books I have. I just saw most of the fanbase in one site talk about how it was indeed fact the sorcerer kings and monsters ruining people's lives, until the technocracy came

But course, people will favor technocracy because an authority that imposes/forces order is something people generally admire.

[grave gulch]

do yall think this would be good for handouts? anybody see this before?

[radiant marsh]

On a happy note, I may be getting into a W20 Wild West game.

So, yay.

[mighty zephyr]

this is very good yes

[grave gulch]

thank you Voy!

[radiant marsh]

But yeah, personally I'm not exactly happy with Paradox's handling of any of the WoD properties, but eh...

And they killed CoD which is definitely a reason for salt.

[mighty zephyr]

In Europe

In every other place in the world, everyone else was fine

[clear delta]

Oh lmao

Everyone else looking at Europe and just not going there

"I can't for the life of me keep up with sorcerer king drama"

[mighty zephyr]

The thing about WoD lore is that they specifically want supernaturals being the hidden directors of history

So what does this mean for the Technocracy?

They personally signed off, directed, or urged the worst atrocities of Western Imperialism.

So the genocides, the slave-trade, colonization, exploitation of indigenious people, white supremacy, etc etc

[grave gulch]

.w.

that's bad

[clear delta]

Did they get retconed out of that? So many people prefer the technocracy

[radiant marsh]

I don't think so

I think they actually bring it up in the Victorian Age book

[mighty zephyr]

They didn't!

[orchid void]

It’s cause the Orders VS Technocracy ends up looking like Libertarians VS Liberal Fash

And at a certain point people agreed that “wow actually being considered Not A Person and eaten by Draculas SUCKS” and signed up for the techs

And then the technocracy wins the setting and it’s SUPPOSED to be bad but, boy the week of nightmares sure justifies their existence

[patent talon]

Seers do seem like pretty perfect Mage antagonists: using magic to keep everyone else asleep

Fuck you, I got mine, cosmically

[radiant marsh]

In general, I find the CoD antagonist splats tend to land better

[clear delta]

?

[mighty zephyr]

It's also because in the early 2000s a lot of people who were "rebellious punks" were actually just liberal fash

[radiant marsh]

When they shifted to making WoD 5e, Paradox pulled all the licenses from OPP. Which means no more 20A oWoD, and no more CoD.

Or rather when they axed nu-White Wolf as an independent company and brought everything in-house.

Though, only the WoD related stuff. Exalted, Scion, Trinity, etc. is still going

[high current]

there's still some 20th stuff happening

mostly victorian mage at this point though

[radiant marsh]

I think they're still finishing up stuff they were already working on

There's one more upcoming Deviant book, IIRC

[royal river]

Also a popular "counterculture" sentiment was to not give a shit about anything, which leads to a lot of both sides-ing, and just a profound lack of empathy, bc it's cooler not to care about things

[radiant marsh]

South Park Libertarianism, in other words

[royal river]

Yup-

[mighty zephyr]

Remember Team America USA was pro-US Interventionism

[patent talon]

America: The Intervention

[clear delta]

So, Voy
What changes do you thing mage 5th edition should do?

[grave gulch]

add a fox

[clear delta]

Makes sense

[mighty zephyr]

yeah

Also

1. Make it Less Racist
2. Make it less overall powerful
3. Make the Traditions more focused about their Affinity Spheres than the cultures they came from.
4. Make it so Mages don't write history, but are often swept up in it.
5. Make things less global and more local.
6. Cement the Technocracy as antagonists.
7. Do not make the Techno-Fascists "the good guys in a different point of view"
8. Do not be cringe while writing the Marauders and Nephandi.

[grave gulch]

i thought it was already racist

[mighty zephyr]

What a fucking typo

[grave gulch]

lmao

[mighty zephyr]

good lord

I am genuinely wondering if I should get checked

my brain has been skipping negatives a lot lately

[grave gulch]

i've done worse

[mighty zephyr]

so I just randomly say the opposite of what I mean

[grave gulch]

if it makes you feel any better i didnt think for a sec that you actually meant that

[mighty zephyr]

ty fox

Also

9. And this is my most controversial pick
   Make Paradigm limit the effects you're able to manifest.

You don't get everything a Sphere is able to do, you're only able to do things you thematically could do under your paradigm.

[clear delta]

Interesting

[grave gulch]

btw yall wouldnt know how i can emulate the sound of a tape recorder would ya?

[clear delta]

The Traditions do need some tuning up

[mighty zephyr]

VoiceMod?

[clear delta]

Why make the Traditions focused on the spheres?

[mighty zephyr]

Because otherwise you run into the same issue WtA had where Europe has 200x Secret Societies of Mages per capita than every other place on the planet

And the best way to counteract is "global secret society that gets syncritized to local customs"

[mighty zephyr]

Also if you can find a cheap one you can just plug in an actual shitty microphone

and just use that

we did that for a video once

Thunder used a kid's toy for a mic

[clear delta]

Oh I see

[grave gulch]

clever!

[patent talon]

Would you keep the Technocracy as Mages with a specifically focused paradigm, or would they be something else?

[mighty zephyr]

Yes they're still Mages

[grave gulch]

they are mages in denial arent they?

"Nah this aint magic"

[spice abyss]

Well

Here's the thing

Since over in OWoD reality is based upon consensus

If you can get people to agree on "magical" principles that always hold true no matter what.

Then it just doesn't matter.

[supple quail]

i’d kinda like to play a technocrat or rather a mage that uses tech stuff but isn’t a fascist that’s just how they do their wizard shit

[clear delta]

Etherites

[velvet sparrow]

Or Virtual Adepts

[clear delta]

Also traditions have their internal variations

Could have a science verbena

[spice abyss]

Free Council! 😄

[mighty zephyr]

Also I'm changing Consensus

If I have the chance

Because Mage is a shared world with the rest of wod so consensus doesn't work outside of Mage

[supple quail]

oh rad

[supple quail]

how would you change it?

[clear delta]

Biologist verbena is my dream. Maybe psychologist is also interesting

[crystal fern]

I once managed to deeply upset a Vampire character by having a ghouled mage explain the concept of consensus to her

said kindred was a biologist in life, and got incredibly upset at the notion that evolution was created as part of a shadowy conspiracy to be able to create new creatures without creating too much paradox

[clear delta]

The idea of belief affecting reality is interesting, but can be done badly

[supple quail]

what’s verbena?

[supple quail]

the healthy response to consensus is to simply say the mage is silly and that’s only how it works for mages

[crystal fern]

Verbena are the tradtion that focuses the most on the Life sphere, they're written to be very witchy/druidic

[clear delta]

Love nature and blood

[supple quail]

ah i see, i looked them up after seeing them mentioned and got really confused when contrasting what i read to people talking about them as sciencey

[crystal fern]

their Technocrat counterpart are the Progenitors, who are dedicated to biology and modern medicine

[clear delta]

Scientists can love and worship nature

[mighty zephyr]

The Verbana are also, somehow, Terfy and the second most conservative tradition

[clear delta]

Bruh

Well, occultism has a lot of conservatives
Heard of some issues at witchcraft groups

[supple quail]

yknow what that’s actually incredibly unsurprising

can definitely see ‘witchcraft’ groups being very bio essentialist about occult feminine traditions and stuff

[short quiver]

I also feel like the general 90s harmless feeling of conspiracy stuff hurts MtA in the present day.
"Germ theory is a conspiracy to suppress our inherent power to cure disease with ecstatic dance and meditation" comes off, uh, differently

[spice abyss]

They didn't know where this path led

[mighty zephyr]

M5 is gonna be fucking wild

[clear delta]

Old snake voice: Mage discourse has changed

[mighty zephyr]

https://tenor.com/view/mgs4snake-mgs4-snake-vs-liquid-gif-25686383

me about to solo 20 nerds who didn't actually comprehend anything they read about the TU

[clear delta]

They're miceowaving Voy, noooooo

[mighty zephyr]

and brother

i'm wearing forks

[orchid void]

i support you in this my brother. please ingore that my shirt says AWAKENING 4VER that's not related it was just the only clean shirt i have.

[radiant marsh]

Indeed. And ignore that mine says 'Death Before 5e.' It's just a band I like.

But yeah

Shift of Technocracy from 'Literally all of modern society lol' to 'All the grinding soulcrushing horrible bits of modern society as means of control' would be a good change.

Especially if they're meant to be antagonists by default.

[mighty zephyr]

No matter what comes out in WoD I have to be keyed in

due to y'know

Job

And I naturally am going to want to argue about anything I read

hence why I have been fighting an edition war about WoD for the last like 4 months

[velvet sparrow]

You ok Voy?

[mighty zephyr]

This is enrichment for me

[orchid void]

sometimes petty bickering is fun

[crystal fern]

I fully agree with this but god, I'm not sure I trust many writers to do it well. Starting from a core of technology-as-conspiracy presents so many dark paths to blunder into by accident.

Like, even I wouldn't be entirely sure where to start on something like this. You've got some easy wins, like you could point at the Progenitors and say "these people invented eugenics and that's bad", but there aren't too many examples of using medical technology for social control before you start getting into vaccine conspiracies or unhinged rants about abortifacients or hormones. All it takes is one weirdo on the writing staff and a lack of oversight on the editorial level and we end up with another Chechnya situation

would be nice not to have things like DNA, germ theory, and other aspects of modern medicine not be considered evil-by-default though

I suppose you could also lean on "the Progenitors are why the US healthcare system sucks so hard" but that would be falling into the trap of US-centric worldbuilding again

[patent talon]

Yeah, it's a pretty fine line to walk. I was mulling this over last night and I suppose you could angle it as "the Technocracy wants to strangle imagination and invention beyond their control". They support patent lawsuits and charging tens of thousands for life saving medicines. They influence governments to pump money into weapons research rather than infrastructure investment.
Alternatively, you could take a leaf from the Lemurians of Genius the Transgression, that the Technocracy is strictly controlling human development, doling out new advances when it suits them (i.e. whenever it benefits them politically, militarily or economically). Now, this could be seen as supporting the "medbed" and "secret space program" conspiracy theories which are, in the US at least, intertwined with Q-anon, so you might need a pretty big disclaimer

[supple quail]

so, god machine lol

but honestly ‘the god machine but the technocracy built it and it’s out of their control now’ would be pretty neat as a mage overarching antagonist

[clear delta]

A system that subsumed the individual that compose it

[clear delta]

Thinking back on my hive claimed legacy.
So the powers should be stuff for fighting and containing spirits, and sometimes letting out the mutations of their state to use in combat.
With the final attainment being the whole die to purify an area thing, and weaken or close a Wound

Could give them drawbacks of being basically sick most of the time, and giving off an aura that feels "off"

Oh, also drawing on sympathy to dark spirits through your prisoners

[orchid void]

Part of the issue there is that QAnon is a “big tent” conspiracy that devoured the entirety of US conspiratorial milieu, that is part of its… idk advantages? As a conspiracy-form- a lot of what the Technocracy draws from is a much less…if not less coherent, less dispersed milieu that existed at the time of writing

The difference between Bill Cooper (bastard) and Alex Jones (also bastard)

Yes?

[mighty zephyr]

I think focusing on the oppressive brutalism vs the Zany Wacky Conspiracy Theories is better for a "Modern" TU

Especially because like

You don't need to be conspiratorial to realize the extent the government and large corporations are actively making the world worse

[radiant marsh]

The technocracy isn't the guys pouring fluoride into the water supply, setting up FEMA for a government takeover, or covering up the existence of extraterrestrials.

They're the guys infiltrating protest movements, assassinating whistleblowers, and ensuring the tribe is cracked down upon so the pipeline can go through.

(And maybe covering up the existence of extraterrestrials As a treat.)

[orchid void]

This is fair and someone mentioned earlier that having the Seers as your bad guys sorta cuts the Gordian knot bc you can skip some heavy questions and go straight to “feed that archonic shithead his teeth”

[mighty zephyr]

I think the Seers posit a more interesting dynamic cuz like

There's no real big difference between you in the Seers and you in the Pentacle

There But For The Grace of God Go You

[grave gulch]

[chilly vault]

Save that in the Pentacle, there's a good chance you cut off contact with your family to protect them from the Seers, and in the Seers, there's a good chance you can't leave to protect your family from the Seers

... hm. Doesn't feel that different.

[grave gulch]

Mages without orders whats the danger for them?

[mighty zephyr]

No one respects you and everyone will happily take advantage of your position with their greater resources.

[chilly vault]

Like the Pentacle but even worse

Because you have no one to turn to

No one to rely on

[grave gulch]

So either join an order or bad shits gonna happen

[chilly vault]

Maybe? If you're smart and lucky you could be safe

Make your own friends, build up your own resources

But safety in numbers is a powerful thing

The World of Darkness is not safe for anyone, and Mages are part of anyone

[clear delta]

Yeah
Look, for example, at the Bene ashmedai. Hunted by their enemies the clavicularius, they courted the favor of the silver ladder, and had a policy of training a bunch of apprentices until their numbers could match the Clavicularius

[orchid void]

Some of the Nameless Orders are large enough/important enough to a local scene that they're Allied to the Pentacle

think of the Pentacle as wizard NATO or something

wizard UN as long as you go "okay sure we'll use the atlantean rules even if we don't believe in atlantis"

[short quiver]

The Orders do have some pretty good sticks as well as carrots.
Tools, assistance, Rotes, Merit options. Mentorship.

And the Orders might help you find a Cabal, because they consider it just good practice to keep every Mage in a Cabal if at all possible.
It's good for the Magi (strength in numbers!) and the local organizations feel it's best if every Mage has some friends around to keep an eye on them, and maybe have a word if they're starting to, y'know, cackle.

[mighty zephyr]

Also

thinking about it

Marauders also need to be changed to people who break free from the confines of Paradox and simply go on intense powertrips

vs "Oh they're just crazy! Look at that guy summon a spaghetti dragon! Isn't that wacky."

[grave gulch]

I wanna be wacky

[mighty zephyr]

I think the "they're just crazy lmao" thing is very ableist

[grave gulch]

idk what albeist means

[mighty zephyr]

means it's discriminatory writing against people with mental disorders

[grave gulch]

Oh i see

[radiant marsh]

It can be done better

But I do honestly like the idea of Marauders being people who basically overwrite reality with their own

Not necessarily out of a conscious power trip, but because "This is how it should be."

But it should be divorced from any like real world mental illness. It's purely supernatural.

[clear delta]

People lost in their own perspective who list all connection to otgers, perhaps

[clear delta]

Called "capacitismo" in Portuguese

[mighty zephyr]

Also

I have a new hunter

Diesel Dennings

Who's the daughter of a previous one-shot character who went missing mysteriously in the same place we're now visiting

so now her storyline is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_PWdjym25g

I Gotta Find Out Who Killed My Dad

[grave gulch]

Both new words!

New to me

[clear delta]

How about a thyrsus inventing "old" sacred places? They make or find a nascent locus, set up a spirit population there, then start creating false memories and folklore about it

Eventually creating a population of worshippers, learned in the "ancient" lore

Could be to have grateful and fed spirits

Also useful to have cults

There's also ideology. Believing this is a good way to put flesh and spirit in tandem

[short quiver]

I dig it.
If there's one true ancient practice of the mystical enlightened masters it's "pretend my thing is way older than it is"

[grave gulch]

who's the exarch of the abyss again?

[clear delta]

Gate

[grave gulch]

right

i think i wanna use them

i dont really have a story planned yet i'm just listing stuff i wanna use

[clear delta]

The secret order of the gate. Those mages

• Summon abyssal beings
• Banish abyssal beings
• Have a special language for restricting them
• Have access to a special realm close to the abyss. It looks like a broken down version of the world

[grave gulch]

have they been corrupted by the abyss?

or just people who think "abyss cool "

[clear delta]

Ho boy. I'll look up their stuff
The abyss is generally corruptive and addictive.
Often, a chunk of the members falls on the side of just letting the abyss in rather than banishing it, while another part falls on the opposite

I think any abyssal legacy requires corrupting your soul with the abyss and twisting your connection to your path

[clear delta]

They utterly worship the Gate as their god, and are driven mad by their pursuit of these beliefs

In tgeir doctrine, the World is a Tree, that will always grow towards the Supernal, the Sky
The tree, they say, will cjoke existence to death if unchecked. Thus they must "prune" it with the Abyss

They stop caring about the world. They only take care of their appearances enough to not stand out or have issues in their goals. They maintain a façade of normalcy, but it's only a mask. They always have a cold disdain they can barely hide.

Many of the Openers (those who tend to invite the abyss) believe humanity need a great abyssal disaster to cull their world and numbers. Warders (tend towards the opposite) are deeply terrified of the abyss

[grave gulch]

they dont seem fun to be around

[clear delta]

Haha, yeah

Their powers are about being out of phase with reality, going into the Place Between, and summoning and controlling abyssal monsters

They can reach inside of someone (or something) to pull the monster out without harming the host, then drag it to the Place Between and leave it there

Most abyssals jump back home from there but some stick around

[grave gulch]

so they could come up to me reach to the shard of abyss inside of my soul and pull an evil creature who wants to eat me?

[clear delta]

I'm not sure?
That was mentioned in the context of like a gulmoth or acamoth (types of abyssal monsters) possessing someone

[grave gulch]

scary to think about

[clear delta]

They believe three founders live to this day. An opener, a warder, and the minister of the order of the gate, who supposedly achieved balance and lives in a crumbling cathedral in the Place Between

Finally the Gate. As an exarch, She usually won't get directly involved. He will mostly give missions to Her servants, such as through dreams.
If He produces an avatar (ochema), then shit got real. The ochemata of ascended beings are powerful. They can shapeshift at will, open portals pretty much anywhere (but they remain open long enough for the ochema to be pursued).
They have big stats, any mundane action is done well because of their supernal perfection, they cast magic very well.
Staring at them with mage sight may suffer sensory overload

[grave gulch]

I like

[clear delta]

I imagine the Gate's ochema may work a bit differently, due to the Abyssal influence

[grave gulch]

I wonder if a true fae and the exarch gate could fit within the same story

[clear delta]

But I can't come up with good rules for that

Oh and following the abyss, I think they all swear to the anti-watchtowers, so the followers of the Gate probably make the world worse and more hopeless and miserable just with their presence

[grave gulch]

ALSO

back to hunters

would it be bad if i threw in another hunt in the middle of their hunt for the promethean? i made it so the lad has a house in Blythburgh, which is like 3 hours away from london, and that's a place with some spooky tales of it's own

[mighty zephyr]

Do you want this to be an aside that they have to deal with or a full-blown hunt that must be completely neutralized?

[grave gulch]

you mean Blythburgh? as much as i would like to make a full hunt for the place i imagine it is better if i make it more of a side quest or something

[mighty zephyr]

I think a fun thing would be to make it so that they have to navigate The Spooky to get a thing

[grave gulch]

ooh that's a good idea

[clear delta]

Haunted neighborhood, maybe?

[umbral estuary]

What are people's thoughts on Beast in Chronicles 2E?

[mighty zephyr]

It's very fun

Focus on your own lore more than the book's and make sure to get at least the Player's Guide

[clear delta]

Is there fun stuff for playing with the astral?
I know beasts walk around the place and can visit forgotten areas.

[spice abyss]

I like Beast mechanically

[umbral estuary]

My ST introduced a Beast in our Vampire game. People were going into a coma for seemingly no reason. She lead us to Temenos to find the creature responsible. From what I could see Beasts a really cool.

[mighty zephyr]

Since your Lair is in the Astral, you can easily enter it and thus into people's dreams

or travel into the oversoul of humanity to where Horrors come from

[umbral estuary]

Beasts were built from the ground up as a Cross-Splat character choice. So they needed to be able to follow the other ghoulies to their places.

[mighty zephyr]

Beasts can actually go into any dimension yeah

They have the unique ability to create doors to any place

[umbral estuary]

So yeah they're built to play nice with all the other Chronicles creatures.

[clear delta]

Oh, I meant special abilities to use on goetia or astral realms
Or spreading stories, since stories are a big part of them

[mighty zephyr]

YE

they can do that

[chilly vault]

Beast has good mechanics (other than family dinner) and the seed of a good idea buried in its lore

[umbral estuary]

What's Family Dinner?

[mighty zephyr]

Means a Beast can feed by voyeuristically watching another supernatural do it's Thing

it sucks ignore it

[umbral estuary]

Oh.

[mighty zephyr]

Also I would say that the general set up of Beast lore is good

it's just the specifics of Beast society, which is EASILY ignorable, is bad

[chilly vault]

I much preferred the version you pitched the other day

[umbral estuary]

I can understand why the did that though. As I understand each individual Beasts feeding is VERY involved and can't be handwaved like say a Vampires. They need to be drawn out RP segments. So if multiple beasts have to feed that could take a whole session.

[chilly vault]

I generally dislike the crossover-centric nature of the splat

[supple forum]

@dawn creek In Deviant you have a busted soul due to something you experienced, and it can manifest in different ways.

You can be a psychic, a being infused with strange energies, a half human half other being, a cyborg-like thing, or a mutant.

By default you're renegades, which are hunter by conspiracies, but the game also has a companion and mechanics for Devoted play.

Going by Deviant rules, Cain would be a Standing 9-10 Conspiracy, employing Devoted Cephalists.

So your Exorcists would be Cephalists, and they'd be deployed on missions to hunt down other Remade, strange anomalies, and the like.

[versed zodiac]

Hmm, but what would Sins be

[supple forum]

They're effectively special goetia.

You could just say they have manifestations, which goetia don't normally have.

Or you could design them as special blue book horrors.

[grave gulch]

i think that works

people dont like being around prometheans so it would make sense that my guy moved into a haunted neighborhood

[clear delta]

Oh, true! Clever

You can have spirits and/or ghosts causing trouble

[orchid void]

vvvvv very excited for the hunter i get to play

very happy to play around with Mother Mari

[grave gulch]

@orchid void tell us about her

[orchid void]

Mother Mari is an exorcist! She used to be a delinquent, now she used to be a Priest. The Exorcist training has stuck around, but the Second Inquisition threw her out when she started HRT. But you know. God told her to beat back the Darkness. So why not do it while feelin Good?

it's gonna be great fun, don't run her ID for things there's an arson charge she promises she has nothing to do with

[grave gulch]

cool

if u see a vampire

make sure to punch it

[dawn creek]

the eternal struggle tcg in a nutshell

[supple quail]

go further, do better: drop kick the vampire

[clear delta]

What are the spiritual hunter groups?

[grave gulch]

someone at the wizard server gave me a great idea for using a fae alongside the abyss

they told me about their titles as well and the idea is having a Fae take on an abyssal title!

[mighty zephyr]

How to get the other Gentry to fucking kill you in one easy step

[grave gulch]

what's a Gentry

[clear delta]

True fae

[grave gulch]

OH

[supple quail]

yeah they will straight up wipe you off the map for that kinda shit

if they find out of course

[grave gulch]

then we'll go with that

why would that anger the others tho?

[supple quail]

i’m not a fae expert but it’s like doing invasive surgery and implanting several viruses which give you mega alzheimer’s into their neighbour down the road from my pov

like sure it’s not like they cared for the guy much necessarily but a. they morally don’t like that b. don’t want you to do that to them

[clear delta]

Abyss just fucks up the world

[mighty zephyr]

The other Fae would probably descend upon it and rip it apart in a cackling frenzy

It's just an Other that let's them have an excuse to rip a rival apart

They're incapable of empathy and so it's just a feeding frenzy essentially

[grave gulch]

i still dont understand WHY it would piss them off tho

Like i understand that they are very bad people, but the picture im getting here is that they dont need much of a reason

[radiant marsh]

They are very bad people, but they do care about self preservation

And inviting the Abyss in is a bit like your neighbor building an unshielded nuclear reactor in their back yard.

[velvet sparrow]

The Abyss is one of the things that can just fucking kill them, or worse.

[radiant marsh]

Even if they don't know what it is, they know it's Outside and Wrong

And the one sin a member of the Gentry cannot forgive is polluting their nature by something Outside.

Like if you swear revenge against your escaped Changeling servants, that's just commitment to the bit.

If you actually let it consume you to the detriment of your titles, then it's stopped being an interesting diversion, and you're letting an actual mortal emotion dictate your actions, and that's when you get banished

[grave gulch]

what happens to the ones that are banned?

[clear delta]

"Please, could a kimd soul spare some glamour?"

Sad fae in a box

[grave gulch]

are they dangerous?

I heard they are very powerful inside of their own realm

So getting banned must suck for them

[radiant marsh]

They're still dangerous, but more in terms of 'This is something a motley of Changelings can conceivably deal with' rather than 'Godlike Entity'

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah yhe only statted Gentry is an exile

[mighty zephyr]

The Gentry are held to inscrutable rules but if you aren't a Fae then you aren't held to them

You're an Other Thing holding onto power that could be theirs

[radiant marsh]

Keep in mind they also use those rules to protect themselves

So said Other Thing that's not abiding by the rules is an automatic threat

[grave gulch]

right right

So if i do have this Abyssal Fae going around causing trouble, it probably wouldnt be the only one around

Who are the wizards that draw power from the fae realm again?

[supple quail]

it's not necessarily the same arcadia, but Acanthus mages do

not the same arcadia but do what you want

[grave gulch]

yeah i remember someone else here mentioned they werent the same realms

[chilly vault]

Oh god a True Fae tainted by the Abyss sounds like a nightmare scenario

[grave gulch]

big problem

[grave gulch]

what do you think of the idea tho? @chilly vault

[dawn creek]

huh, soul busted as in Geist that you died or some other way?

[clear delta]

Cracked soul

[supple forum]

Sin-Eaters don't have busted souls.

They lost their souls by dying, and the hole was filled by the Geist.

[clear delta]

Like a leaking reactor

[supple forum]

Deviants have cracked souls

[dawn creek]

define craked, like due a trauma my soul was cracked and now i'm a deviant?

[supple forum]

It can be a lot of things. It depends partly on your origin.

[clear delta]

Literally damaged by what you went through

[dawn creek]

this could be a good time to read the DtR rulebooks

[supple forum]

You can be born with it, but most acquire it in some fashion.

[dawn creek]

but i'm too hyperfixated on promethean

[clear delta]

Your mind is kinda fucked abd obsessed with extreme relationships

[dawn creek]

and you say that DtR makes for a better mixup with CAIN?

also I did not know there was a WoD/CofD thread

[supple forum]

It could be due to prenatal drug exposure, an accident of some kind, experimental therapies, a training program, etc.

[dawn creek]

i see

[clear delta]

Your body was put through something, and that hurt your soul

Deeply

[supple forum]

Yes. Cain slots perfectly into Deviant's notion of a high-Standing Conspiracy, with Exorcists as Devoted Cephalists.

[dawn creek]

my ex

[dawn creek]

i see, I will read the fluff of cain to get a feeling

also since this is a world of darkness forum

i'm trying to make an oneshot for VtM for a friend, just to get him introduced to the WoD, after that he said he prefers Werewolf
how much should I wing it?

[supple forum]

Not sure.

I'm more of a CofD fan. Ascension is really the only WoD game I have any interest in.

[dawn creek]

i'm more leaning to CofD

like, when I read the premise of Demon the Descend I think i wet myself

[supple forum]

Demon is pretty fun.

[dawn creek]

yeah

but the lore

man it's just

ascends

i LOVE when esotericism is mixed with technology

[supple forum]

When it comes to CofD, I'm partial to Mage and Deviant. Though I like most of the splats, except Beast.

My main issue with Beast isn't really with the controversial stuff, though I'm not a fan of that either, but that it feels pretty directionless.

It doesn't give you much to really do, and it leans so heavily on crossover that it struggles to have strong enough themes and gameplay loops to stand on its own.

[dawn creek]

i haven't touched Beast

[supple forum]

Beast has about as much direction as blue book mortals, except now you are the Horror.

So it misses out on a lot of the fun of playing mortals.

[dawn creek]

tbqh the only CofD that I read the rulebook extensively are Demon and Promethean, because Vampire, Werewolf and Mage and Hunter can be overlapped to the WoD ones, so I think i'm not losing that much there if I put them on the back of the queue, i still have to get into Beast, Deviant and.. something else that I don't remember

[supple forum]

I think it's a bit of a disservice to write off VtR, WtF, and MtAw like that.

In my opinion they're generally better written and conceptualized, and more mature (in the traditional sense) than their WoD counterparts.

And Awakening for example has very little in common with Ascension. It's much more post-theosophy than postmodern.

[dawn creek]

post what

[supple forum]

Theosophy was/is a late 19th Century religious movement founded by Helena Blavatsky, which has a kind of insane cosmology and theology that was created by throwing together different concepts from a variety of world religions.

[dawn creek]

also you might be right, I just am interested in the new IPs, because it focuses on new type of supernatural stuff, like I always loved Frankenstein, both the novel and as a concept and adaptation (off topic: how come the only good adaptation of the novel is the B&W movie? (Idr the date, '57?)) and promethean speaks to me due the pilgrimage, and Demon the Descend i just love the concept of angel beings algorithms and programs of the fucking god machine

[dawn creek]

i see

i might move WtF forward to get some more inspiration and mix it with WtA5 for my friend's games, but aside from that what's the main difference between VtM and VtR? like, did the masquerade broke off?

[supple forum]

It's like a late 19th century Scientology, but without the government infiltrations or harassment campaigns (afaik).

[dawn creek]

so like modern scientology? /s

[supple forum]

Nah, cuz Scientologists will stalk you and shit.

Theosophy was more like a New Age movement.

[dawn creek]

i have to read into it more, might sertve some inspiration

anyway yeah, I find CofD more interesting than WoD

[supple forum]

VtR has a lot less focus on global conspiracies, and a lot more emphasis on your nightly survival.

Elders go in and out of torpor periodically to reduce their Blood Potency (the power stat), in order to ease their feeding restrictions. This means vampire society is more dynamic.

This cyclical torpor also kind of gives you something of a reset so that you wake up fresh faced and ready to integrate back into the world. So the elders also aren't running around in powdered wigs and petticoats.

[dawn creek]

huh

WtF is more about the spiritual level of Gaia, and staying balance between our work and the spirit one right?

[supple forum]

And there are five major covenants which vampires organize themselves into.

[supple forum]

As a Forsaken werewolf your job is sort of to be a spiritual game warden/forest ranger.

You keep the spiritual world in balance, and also maintain its borders.

[clear delta]

Yeah, been thinking about good goals for an astral splat. Fighting for astral territory, getting chased by things that want to drag your soul back, kicking back in other astral escapees

[dawn creek]

yeah I remember something among those lines

[supple forum]

You gotta keep the spirit critters out of the city, and also make sure that the humans aren't polluting the local resonances.

[clear delta]

And adjust your territories resonances to the way you want to be

[supple forum]

Mhmm

[dawn creek]

so instead of an eco terrorist you're a a board patrol guard

[supple forum]

More forest ranger.

[dawn creek]

insert that one simpson scene where the ranger tries to climb himself

anyway I got it

i need to read a lot of stuff from CofD

but adhd is kicking my ass and my doctor said "lmao see ya the 23th"

[supple forum]

Oof.

[dawn creek]

like I have the manual for 7th sea and I still have to read at least how to make a character

[supple forum]

ADHD can be a real motivation killer for sure.

[dawn creek]

and I'm itching to learn how to play the card game, altho OCTGN sucks ass on wine

[dawn creek]

it's not like a motivation killer, it's just a frustration enhancer, because I do want to read the manuals, i just can't bring myself to do it

[supple forum]

Motivation scrambler, I mean.

[dawn creek]

i tried to watch the pirates of the whatever trilogy to get me in a swashbuckling mood, but i have barely read the first part of the 7th sea manual

same goes for WtA5's manual

and to a certain extend VtM5

and like, I want to read more rpg manuals (cyberpunk RED, numenera, the call of cthulhu, l5R) but every time I either open the pdf or the physical book i read three word and my brain is like "fuck you"

this is hell

[clear delta]

Changeling the dreaming and changeling the lost are also quite different

[dawn creek]

same goes for lancer's manual btw

[dawn creek]

inject the fluff in my veins pls

[clear delta]

In Lost, the main characters were kidnapped by the True Fae into their realms and warped. They escaped and band together to deal with problems like the True Fae trying to get them back

[grave gulch]

fae talk detected

[chilly vault]

CofD is tonally so much better imo

[dawn creek]

i like CofD, shame Paradox is probably not gonna do anything with it

they're prolly gonna get the big ones out, Vampire Werewolf and Hunter are already out, the only missing are Wraith and Mage, which the latter I think has more probabilities to get a V5,but aside from that idk man, I think it would be smart from Paradox's side to have WoD and CofD running parallel but beign similar, so you can decide whichever is better for you and they will make more money, but CofD is left to rot at 2nd edition because afaik Onyx Path Publishing cannot publish anything if paradox does not tell them to do so

[chilly vault]

I’m fairly certain that OPP rents the licensing rights for CofD and Exalted

They don’t work on commission from Paradox

But also, Paradox is barely doing anything with OWoD

[grave gulch]

https://tenor.com/view/hackerman-gun-phone-gif-13247907

someone told me a space wizard could do this @chilly vault

[chilly vault]

Yes

In 1E in particular space was notable for “yeah I can kill you from anywhere in the universe without even trying very hard”

[mighty zephyr]

Btw

I'm now fluent in MtAs mechanics

[grave gulch]

hehe

[mighty zephyr]

and I am aghast at how little you can actually cast magic until you've spent like 30xp

[grave gulch]

nerd

||ur a nerd like me||

[mighty zephyr]

https://tenor.com/view/jujutsu-kaisen-megumi-fushiguro-aoi-todo-german-suplex-gif-23759522

[grave gulch]

[mighty zephyr]

But yeah like

Out of character generation, unless you skip a lot of character options, you're only rolling 1 dice on spell casting, with a dicepool of 3 at most

that's nuts to me with how difficulty works in this

[grave gulch]

you need to roll an 8 a 9 or a 10 right?

[mighty zephyr]

The default is 6 but that can easily go up

[chilly vault]

Wait what about rotes?

[mighty zephyr]

Rotes don't do anything in Ascension

[radiant marsh]

They don't do CoD anymore. Thank Paradox for that.

You can still get them, just no new stuff.

[chilly vault]

Oh Ascension

[chilly vault]

“We can’t have a competitor in the market actually putting out books on a reasonable schedule”?

[radiant marsh]

'Even if that 'competitor' is paying us for the license' apparently.

It doesn't help that I'm a grognard that bounced hard off of 5e.

But yeah, I think the Clade book for Deviant is the only CoD still in the pipe.

[grave gulch]

what's the main difference between chronicles changeling and wod changeling?

[mighty zephyr]

they're VERY different

CtD is about bringing fun and imagination back to the world! Except you can't because capitalism!

CtL is being on the run from an abusive relationship for the rest of your life.

[high current]

also Dreaming has you being the actual fae who are struggling to maintain whimsey because the world kinda sucks nowadays, and Lost has you as someone the fae kidnapped and drastically changed before you were able to escape and now you're just trying to survive

[dawn creek]

wym? they've been putting most of the major games in 5th edition

or you mean something else by old WoD?

because old WoD new WoD are nebolous terms becuase they made more complicated than it needed to

(iirc vtm wta mta etc was wod, then judgment happened, new wod happened, which then got renamed to cofd)

https://youtu.be/15tCou7O4yg?si=MwEVoy916wJgLzMC&t=56
he puts it best

[dawn creek]

what did they do

[mighty zephyr]

Paradox has seemingly stopped the production cycle of CofD content

so as to not compete with WoD

[dawn creek]

which is a shame

because imo CofD has better ideas

also what the hell is promethean the created competing with? same goes for beast, deviant and geist

I can understand the big four, but what about the ones exclusive to CofD?

[patent talon]

Pure capitalism brain

[grave gulch]

[clear delta]

Insanity

So, favorite mage legacies?
I like the Bene Ashmedai and Hollow Keepers

Oh and tamers of blood

[grave gulch]

Are there any of them who like animals?

[clear delta]

Guess the orphans of protheus? They shapeshift into animals, plants and minerals

[radiant marsh]

This was after they brought everything in-house

After they tried to make White Wolf it's own related company, but put Swedish LARP Dracula in charge of everything

[dawn creek]

i fucking want Promethean V5 and I want it NOW

[grave gulch]

I like

What kind of wizard does that tho?

[radiant marsh]

Thyrsus, apparently.

[heady kestrel]

well its a legacy, so I think its Thyrsus and then also I think its.... god what is the order for it

[dawn creek]

oh god I still have to dwell into mage

I just know the technocracy and the fact that "it's not magic but science" ordeal

[clear delta]

The Orphans of Protheus have this silly restriction of living in the wild, in their 1e write-up. I'd discard that
Mage becoming part of the urban ecosystem is cool

[heady kestrel]

tbf of all things Legacies are allowed to be Needlessly specific

I could see a group calling themselves the Evolution Of Portheus or Sucessors Of Protheus who live in urban areas and are a sort of countermovement/splinter group of the OG legacy

[dawn creek]

this might overlap with #card-gaming but how many of y'all play also vampire: the eternal struggle?

[fair jungle]

Cool guy, love how he puts the Fae book

[dawn creek]

in his changeling video?

[fair jungle]

YES~!

[dawn creek]

i still have to watch it

well

technically I watched all of his WoD videos, but they were bg noise fodder

[fair jungle]

Same tbh

[dawn creek]

just recently i've been trying watch them and gain some information

like I managed to get some info on the brujah clan

also some mage lore

[fair jungle]

mage sounds very interesting but at the same time

[dawn creek]

mage is what introduced me to WoD

because of his video got in my recommended, i thought "oh this is some of that bs where people think they're woke and deny reality" but then I realized it was a RPG

the title he gave to the video did not help neither lol, but thanks to that I am in the World of Darkness now

[fair jungle]

I fear it will become this

[dawn creek]

PARADOX WHEN TF YOU"RE GONNA PUT MAGE AND WRAITH IN 5TH ED

[dawn creek]

lmao

why?

personally my favorite is wraith, but as I said i'm more inclined to CofD than WoD

[fair jungle]

cuz the magic system is very open and it may become more 'ok DM hear me out'

[dawn creek]

also fuck 20th anniversay stuff, i'm not paying 99 euro for the core book

[fair jungle]

Paying

[dawn creek]

dw I legally aquired all the pdfs

it's just that I like to collect useless stuff so I wanted a hard copy too

i think I have the pdfs of every single WoD and CofD game, all edition even

[radiant marsh]

I ihave the hardcopies of every CoD game... 1e at least.

[fair jungle]

That's fair, sometimes i try to just read to see if we gonna actually use it

[radiant marsh]

From back when they actually printed and distributed them

[fair jungle]

because-
M ydude I have brought WAY too many Lancer stuff that I never actually used ;w;

[dawn creek]

same

[dawn creek]

i bought the core rulebook as an hardback

i don't know if I should buy the other stuff because i'm not that interested in campaigns but more in more content to toy around, new frames, gears, etc

[fair jungle]

I would love the physical book
BUT
Brazil :(

[dawn creek]

that is why for the physical stuff I tend to buy only the supplement that add to the game, not just "here are scenarios"

tho the only exception is call of cthulhu because I lvoe HPL

[grave gulch]

Think W5 garou would respect them?

[clear delta]

Shrug
I don't Apocalypse

[grave gulch]

Just asked cause im mixing wod and chronicles

Still tho

Wizards cool

[clear delta]

Cofd mages, in general, cause problems with their curiosity and powers

[grave gulch]

And i love em for it

what's the mind and space wizard called?

[clear delta]

Mastigos

You know, I was thinking the other day of how an Awakening videogame would go.
I imagine, most of the time you'd have a basic mage sight, that doesn't change much over the story. However specific scenes would give a more detailed and evocative, and those scenes could be changed or unlocked by how your character grows.

[grave gulch]

Neat

[patent talon]

The ladders are painted yellow because of mage sight 👀

But you could totally go all in on using environmental indicators that appear when you activate your mage sight

[radiant marsh]

Generally not

If they could prove their power comes from the Wyld/Gaia, then they might be treated with a modicum of courtesy.

But a big chunk of WtA's background is that the Garou have historically had a "This is different from us, therefore it's of the Wyrm, kill it with fire" attitude to pretty much everything, and this has frequently come back to bite them in the ass.

"Wow, it'd really help to have a Breed whose entire job was healing the damage wrought by the Wyrm. Too bad we declared that they were all Wyrmspawn and wiped them out."

[clear delta]

I think, if you couldn't do all paths in the videogame, thyrsus and mastigos are the most interesting

[midnight grotto]

Disco Elysium

[clear delta]

Fits, yeah

From what I've seenThe Skills act as mental parts of harry's personality all struggling over his decisions and relationships, yeah, but they also corresponde to harry's organs and system, and help him understand himself as part of the city's organism

Also Harry can hate this imperfect world
He has one thought about tearing things down with his strength, and another where everything being shitty impairs his coordination

[grave gulch]

i figured it out

i'll use a hellhound

[mighty zephyr]

Bark

[radiant marsh]

Bork

[grave gulch]

ok i had a few ideas

this is for the hunter game

ok so, my idea is that when the players visit blythburgh in search for the prometheans house, they'll find that people avoid the are due to it being "cursed" the story is that the old witch of the woods has released her hounds upon the area , only one person lives there still, driven mad by the howling of the hounds

the idea is that his last neighbor will give a couple hints to the player as to how they can ward off the hounds, they'll be able to notice salt in both the doors and windows of his house

as for the promethean's house they'll be able to find a couple letters from his creator, some burned things and a map, the hounds took something from him(basically his research) the witch is the one who wanted him out

she's long gone but her hounds remain i'm thinking the players should be able to find the promethean's plans to retrieve his research from the witches house(deep in the woods, he knew the location) there's a pit of sulfur deep within the woods where the witch's hut used to be, our frankenstein planned to use an old tome written in old english to seal it, but was never able to do it by himself so he left

if the players manage to get this he'll probably stop hiding and try to confront the party in order to recover it

i can't figure out how i could make their little venture through the woods exciting tho, i dont reaaally want them to not be threatened on their way there

what other weaknesses could i add to the hounds

and if i'm missing anything

what do you people think? i would love to have some feedback on this anything i could add? anything i should remove?

[dawn creek]

quick question: for CofD, which has more fluff and lore, the first edition core rulebooks or 2nd edition?

[midnight grotto]

Define core rulebooks rq because I started to answer and then realized we might have different assumptions

[chilly vault]

Do we mean just the base book and nothing else?

[midnight grotto]

I assume it's either that or the main books for each splat

For the latter I do think that 2E has some gaps that may be due to them taking some things for granted, but they also add some new material, so 🤷‍♀️

It probably varies between splats

[grave gulch]

i asked some peeps at the wod server for feedback as well one told me that i have enough material to make the witch, and the hounds their very own quarry....problem is that i dont know how i would include(the hounds mostly) if not when they visit blythburgh, and they are only going there because of the promethean

[mighty zephyr]

you don't need to add weakness to the hounds but you could just make the situation itself more dangerous

make it raining super hard to cut down on visibility and add terrain obstacles

stuff like that

[grave gulch]

i see, i feel like that could work

What do you think of the idea itself tho? The whole thing with the hounds messing with the promethean, mad neighbor, etc?

[mighty zephyr]

looks good! Should be fun

[grave gulch]

thanks voy

[dawn creek]

eh in the end i put both editions

also i meant core rulebook, no supplement

[midnight grotto]

Core rulebooks for the Darkness games don't tend to have much "lore" but they're always fluffy

[chilly vault]

This is fuckin’ rad, Skully

[clear delta]

The devils from chainsaw man feel like fun inspiration for goetia. (And like the horrors from beast)
"Yeah horrible fear goetia wander the astral and fuck you day up."
Kinda like an oneiros, the terrifying stuff gets made into a defense system by the Temenos.
Coukd have mastigos treat them as demon guards of humanity's hell

[chilly vault]

You could set up the witch as a future adversary

[grave gulch]

thanks gk

[grave gulch]

also yeah, that sounds good!

[chilly vault]

Hm.

[clear delta]

Very cool. Does the promethean want to seal it to make this a better hiding spot for prometheans and himself, and/or is this a step in his pilgrimage?

[grave gulch]

more like a step in his pilgrimage, the witch sort of took something from him, and he thinks that if he managed to seal it he could not only recover it, but since they are also there to keep him out it would end up making it safer for him and his kind

[clear delta]

Cool

[grave gulch]

thanks for the feedback everyone

[mighty zephyr]

Werewolf update

I have unlocked a double-jump

[supple quail]

you now have access to areas you previously didn’t have before. you may also access secrets in areas you have previously been.

[midnight grotto]

How much CoD material is there for Appalachia?

Specifically West Virginia

All I know off the top of my head is a vampire bloodline that ages after the embrace and a sort of druidic proximi sleepwalker family

[versed zodiac]

considering how spooky appalachia is already

I'm sure WoD appalachia is fine :)

[grave gulch]

Cod

[grave gulch]

today's session aint happening

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/449651567948464128/1269990275908894800/NotL.gif

[orchid void]

i think that Abyssal Proximi family would fit well in there too

[midnight grotto]

Care to remind me?

[orchid void]

An Abyssal intrusion that Is A Bloodline

It’s in Intruders if memory serves

[orchid void]

Nah the Hilderbrant Recording isn’t super. Appalachia

[clear delta]

Sorry, your reply confuses me

[orchid void]

I’m replying to genomes question, and your follow-up was, even accidentally, following that up- it didn’t really circle back to the convo being had

[clear delta]

Grimoire of grimoires: the recording is a big anomaly. An audio grimoire... perhaps possible through the abyss
Bunch of metalheads from nowhere: hold our beers
"Through our lord Satan, everything is possible. So jot that down."

[grave gulch]

well

i dont get to gm today

but at least i get extra prep time

[clear delta]

Foks with prep time

Who would win

[high hornet]

Hey World of Darkness folk on Pilot Net

What happens if your character falls into the Abyss?

[velvet sparrow]

Which one

[mighty zephyr]

there is like 3 different ones yeah

[velvet sparrow]

You are playing a heavily modified Old World, yes?

[radiant marsh]

If it's the oWoD Umbra one, they're gone. Period. Full stop. End of Character.

If it's the nWoD Mage one...Who knows? Nothing good, definitely.

Like... Unprotected in a vacuum, getting crushed by pressure at the bottom of the deepest ocean trench, and encountering a universe made entirely of antimatter simultaneously. Except instead of random consequences of physics, all these things are sentient, aware, and hate you on an instinctual level.

[heady kestrel]

hey maybe you could fall into one of the theoretical, hypothetically possible but yet undiscovered "good parts" of the abyss

or you encounter something
willing to make a deal

[high hornet]

I think it's that last one I'm in

and yeaaaah

Good news is that I was a damn heroic fool and saved a bunch of people

Bad news

Abyss

[high hornet]

It might help that my sire is an abyss mysticist
Oooor it might mean I'm in even worse troubles

double bad news, story teller mentioned that he made a note that I previous met a creature from the abyss and introduced myself

[radiant marsh]

Is this V5?

And are you playing a Lasombra or Hecata?

[high hornet]

Lasombra

And it's 20th anniversary edition

[clear delta]

Yeah that's a totally different abyss from nwod mage

[high hornet]

Well last thing that happened was dropping in to the summoning circle so we shall see how that... turns up

[dawn creek]

is everyone world of darknessing right

[velvet sparrow]

no

My group hasn't played in like, 3 months?

Buncha life stuff happened, and one of the players is currently working at a summer camp so can't make it

[grave gulch]

Btw

Vampires dont need their bones a whole lot

They can charge at you with broken bones and all

What happenes if a wizard just removes their skeleton tho?

Would that be enough?

Or could they power through with their Vitae?

[clear delta]

So been thinking about a fear grimoire over at mage discord

• Create phobia effect on the grimoire, also engraved as a 5 dot spell
• Generic summon goetia spell
• Make emotion's effects on mind and body stronger. 3 dots
• Use panic to cloud rationality. Could be used in the temenos to provoke interference, like static or fog, or "tunnel vision" to make non-obvious paths harder to notice
• Supress danger response.
• Description of astral realms involving fear. How they work, how to navigate them. Who the big goetia are
• Maybe a spell that weakens sympathy. You fear what you're unfamiliar with, and fear/distrust can break a weak bond

[versed zodiac]

removing a vampire's skeleton would probably be enough to put them into Torpor tbh

[grave gulch]

i see, i was imagining a wizard simply removing it through magic not through brute force, so i thought maybe they would just fall to the ground haha

[orchid void]

I’m playing so much hunter

[grave gulch]

delilah killing creatures of the night

[clear delta]

Also, got suggested a numen that makes people freeze.
For the responses. Flight, fight, freeze, fawn

Flight is idea for a goetia keeping people away from an area

[dawn creek]

cool! hunter 5e is the only book i'm missing

how do you play it and how's your chronicle going?

[orchid void]

so i'm playin a game of hunter in my friend's personal pulp setting of BABYLON TERMINUS and that's going great (we are about to fight a meatmoss in the nyc sewers)

and i just started up a,,,, @mighty zephyr what version are we playing of Reckoning- game where i'm getting to play a catholic trans exorcist which is gonna be a hoot

[radiant marsh]

I'm in a W20 Wild West game. \o/

We're having our Session 0 on Saturday

[dawn creek]

you mean werewolf the wyld west, or how it's called? the historical setting set in the wild west i mean

[radiant marsh]

Yep

[mighty zephyr]

5th!

[dawn creek]

awesome! i would love to make a campaign for it but i'm already struggling for session 0 of WtA 5e :/

like i have no ideas

[orchid void]

thank u voy

[dawn creek]

awesome

[radiant marsh]

In true Werewolf fashion at least three PCs are starting with built in excuses to despise one another, and the one Iron Rider (IE 19th century Glass Walker) is cheerfully oblivious to all the competing tribal dynamics and ugly histories.

So that should b efun

The Black Fury Ahroun (me) who has the Enemy flaw because her original (Get) sept is angry that somebody with a high Fate and established family jumped ship from the Tribe because she hated the Tribal philosophy. The Gale Stalker Theurge who has a grudge against the other tribes in general and the Get in specific for obvious reasons.

And then the Get Philodox.

[grave gulch]

Get hates everybody

[spice abyss]

Good news for me, my Indie RPG group voted on what Chronicles game we would be running when that comes up.

So I'm going to have to learn about Geist

[radiant marsh]

Geist is interesting

[dawn creek]

all CofD "only" is way more interesting

and i would go as far to say even demon and mummy

geist iirc should be the cofd equivalent of wraith, but i feel like they're that different that CofD does not have a Wraith equivalent

[chilly vault]

Geist is fun! You play a dead person revived by and fused with the titular Geist, a sort of extraordinarily powerful ghost that typically has An Agenda

You get a whole lotta Ghost Bullshit and are very good, as splats go, at navigating the underworld

Death also tends not to stick to you

The default Geist game is something like the last bit of the Sixth Sense, but also Haley Joel Osment probably beats the shit out of some people

[grave gulch]

can someone give me examples of spirit magic in awakening? people at the awakening server gave me some info on that but i'm still a bit lost

they mentioned that knowing chronicles spirit stuff would help and by that i think they meant spirit stuff from other splats?

[chilly vault]

Spirit can in theory be a bit “do anything”

Since you can ask spirits to do stuff for you

[high current]

the only other splat that touches on Spirit specifically is Werewolf, everything else is just general spirit stuff for CofD

fluff-wise they operate similar to owod spirits; there's low-tier spirits that don't even get a rank and are essentially just food for the spirits that do have ranks(though whether you give them any sort of personality or not is up to you), and then ranked spirits represent broader concepts as their rank goes up, with lower ranked spirits being small-scale/local, like a particular building or object

mechanically i'd recommend just actually reading the Mage book's info on them because its the same stuff you'd find in the CofD core book or Werewolf

[spice abyss]

If it has a concept or presence, there is a Spirit of it. They also tend to gather around places where the Gauntlet is thin

[high current]

as far as spirit magic examples though
1 dot - making a spirit use one of its numen in a way it probably would do anyways, learn about a given spirit, look across the gauntlet/into twilight
2 dots - make a spirit do something it wouldn't normally do(also summon them), protect yourself(or others) from spirits, hide from spirits or hide a particular spirit
3 dots - damage a spirit, heal a spirit, change part of a spirit(its stats, appearance, etc) without changing the overall concept of it
4 dots - transform a spirit entirely, tear a spirit apart(agg damage)
5 dots - make a new spirit, or just delete one from existence

[clear delta]

The realms of spirits, the Shadow, generally reflects the physical place

A house with generations of an unhappy family, will have a reflection tinged towards that

Spirits of distrust, resentment, fear

Distances between personal areas being longer

And a general resonance of those feelings, tinging what feelings the place evokes in you

An amusement park may have a happy and inviting resonance, its shadow reflection has spirits of fun, will look nice and fun.

Or, the park had accidents. Now it's scary and threatening

Even on the physical side, the shadows of the toys are longer and more threatening.
On the Shadow side, the toys are sharp, almost seem to have teeth and claws.

[chilly vault]

Notably in NWoD bad spirits tend to be a lot stronger than good ones

Because low-ranking spirits are dumb in ways that cause spirits of positive stuff to self-annihilate or cut off their own growth

[mighty zephyr]

Eh, that's not really true

A Joy Spirit is just as "bad" and "evil" and as likely to rank up as a murder spirit

[clear delta]

And then, stories start to circulate about the amusement park. Eventually, a Place-That-Isn't forms. A place that reflects no physical area. I don't think those places only form through human effect, but can't remember other origins

Powerful spirit gods often have their personal homes in Places-That-Aren't

[chilly vault]

My understanding was that they are likely to murder the source of the joy that created them, while a murder spirit is … likely commit murders and thus feed itself

[clear delta]

The Shadow has little activity during the day, because sunlight has a physical pressure

[mighty zephyr]

A Joy spirit wants an unrelenting, neverending source of Joy

If that means it's targets become addicted to meth, or if it needs to make an unwilling orgy, that's all fine by it.

[clear delta]

But even at night, spirits won't be kicking up a fuss often.
I've seen it compared to Silent Hill (though those games tend more astral). Subtle, strange, hungry

Even so, spirit courts do go to war

I think one book mentions climate change fucking up the spirit side and causing a war, reflected on the physical side by intense storms

[candid shadow]

So I’m watching a compilation of Adrian in LA By Night

Can hunters actually get their blood imbued with holy water?

[grave gulch]

i dont actually know that one

[candid shadow]

Oh looking into it it seemed to be due to Adrian being able to utilize true faith

[velvet sparrow]

Yeah, OWoD holy water is only a thing to people with True Faith

[candid shadow]

And Adrian is nothing if not faithful

[crystal fern]

I mean also it seems like Adrian was fairly vibes-based, mechanically

this was well before H5 so I assume it was just Jason Carl going "what abilities should this guy have"

[candid shadow]

Oh I just assumed Brennan was just playing a hunter character

Didn’t know it was before H5 came out

[crystal fern]

I suppose it is possible, depending on the lead time between recording and airing, and how long H5 was cooking for behind the scenes, that they had access to draft versions of H5 while recording. Just looking at the dates, Adrian debuted on LAbN a relatively short time before H5 was publicly announced as being in the works

the thing is, the way that V5 handles antagonists from other splats is that it largely encourages the ST to just wing it (I assume that this is because they hadn't yet made firm decisions about if or how they were going to handle the other gamelines when they published it)

I would imagine that Jason Carl must have known that Hunter was on the way, but V5 is mostly just like "give supernatural antagonists the closest equivalent in vampire powers, or just make stuff up, it'll be fine"

IDK this could be me assuming incorrectly based on release dates, it's not outside the bounds of possibility that they knew what Hunter was going to look like while recording season 5

[mighty zephyr]

V5 has true faith

H5 does not

[candid shadow]

For vampires or humans?

[mighty zephyr]

Humans

[candid shadow]

Ah fair enough

Honestly there’s a solid chance Brennan was just, playing a NPC statblock then

It wouldn’t be to weird

He was brought in to play the antagonist after all

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah he probably was

[dawn creek]

to all storytellers: how much do you wing it?

[radiant marsh]

Most of what I do is winging it

[dawn creek]

because for a oneshot VtM chronicle i think i'm gonna wing it 70% of the time

[grave gulch]

idk what winging it means

[chilly vault]

Minimal or 0 prep

[grave gulch]

ah

.w.

it went well last 2 times i did it

players liked it

and i was like ".w. ok gotta come up with more stuff"

[spice abyss]

Winging it is a lot of how I do things.

And the system enables that.

[clear delta]

What do you all think of the cofd maeljin?

[radiant marsh]

1e honestly sort of felt like too much of an oWoD throwback.

[grave gulch]

[radiant marsh]

The Inferno book suggested that they might actually be literal demons instead of Spirits, given how they all seemed to be representative of very human evil rather than similar to other spirits.

And then 2e basically tossed that and made them unknowable malefic things that work through an intermediary that claims to be a Firstborn.

[grave gulch]

i'm in the wod server discussing the possibility of a thin blood turning into a starfish for regeneration

[spice abyss]

I am accepting of Maejelin being demons, because boy do they not act like spirits.

[mighty zephyr]

I think 2e had a problem with not really letting the Bale Hounds have enough Space but that's a 2e problem in general

However I think they're fine, it's just funny how much Maejins means when talking about WW properties

[spice abyss]

It has been decided by my group that the Geist game will be taking place in New Orleans.

[mighty zephyr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g00kEcGh4j8

this motherfucker is going to show up

[spice abyss]

Now

[mighty zephyr]

you know it

I know it

[spice abyss]

That is the exact reference that got made when I settled on it.

One thing that is definitely gonna show up is LaLaurie Mansion.

[mighty zephyr]

Also make sure you play a ton of Scissor Sisters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buYrBbwyCGE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPwc-DpVFdc

[spice abyss]

Already set out a couple of tone-setting songs for 'em.

https://youtu.be/xHbwFSqxLqg?si=o9IZgJ7UZP7whPW-

https://youtube.com/shorts/idyJXbZOITM?si=wqiJ_b0GRNso7iK-

[mighty zephyr]

I would also link both of these

Hadestown too

[spice abyss]

Hadestown is also very appropriate!

[dawn creek]

shamelessly copied and pasted but:
question: found Vampire: The requiem 1st edition rulebook second hand, is it worth it? just for the fluff and to have an idea on how different it is from VtM, or should i shoot for 2e on DTR directly?

[mighty zephyr]

From what I hear vtr 1 is TOO close to Masq to justify itself

That's second hand tbo so I can't say for certain

[dawn creek]

i mean, the collectionist in me wants it, but is it justified? i feel like i can mix it with Masquerade but also idk

[mighty zephyr]

I mean if you just want it for your shelf and it's cheap go for it

[dawn creek]

the seller is not cooperating so i think i'm gonna trash it and go for 2e on drivethrurpg directly

[short quiver]

I don't think it's too close to justify itself but it is probably the most directly analogous to the oWoD version
the most "same kind of game but done different" of the lines

[chilly vault]

I don’t really agree with whoever told you that, VtR has a very different vibe imo

[grave gulch]

@chilly vault wizard friend

Tell me

Im a mind wizard

I switch both a vamps and a mortal's mind

what happens to tho their minds?

[chilly vault]

Honestly no idea

You could go in various interesting directions with that

You’re doing VtM rather than VTR stuff, right?

In that case I really don’t know

[grave gulch]

Then tell me what u think would happrn in VTR

[short quiver]

(isn't this a Vampire Chronicles book?)

[grave gulch]

Vampire the requiem is chronicles

[short quiver]

no I mean The Tale of The Body Thief is the fourth book in Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles

[chilly vault]

Well, it’s interesting because in VtR, a vampire has an instinct called “the beast”

So it raises the question of whether the beast stays with the body or comes with

[grave gulch]

Dont vampires in the masquerade have something similar?

[chilly vault]

No idea

I think, if I were to do this, I would not allow it to be a “get out of vampirism” card, at least not for long

[grave gulch]

Isnt a vampire's essence it's remaining humanity? Isnt that what gives them a sense of self?

[chilly vault]

I would say the curse comes with the vamp’s mind, slowly converting the new body into a vampire

However

The old body is still dead

And without the curse to sustain it

Begins to shut down

[grave gulch]

Oooh

[chilly vault]

So you have a race against the clock to undo what was done

Before the mortal goes the way of all flesh

(It’s not really optimal for the vamp, either, who lost a huge amount of power)

(“Suddenly I’m a neophyte again” sucks)

[grave gulch]

Lmao

[chilly vault]

Could be an unlikely bedfellows situation, even, where the two are working together to try to find a mage who can press the undo button

At least once they figure out what’s going on

[grave gulch]

Mages can be real jerks huh

[valid merlin]

it comes with their hubris

[grave gulch]

Speaking of hubris

It causes you to lose wisdom right?

Can they recover wisdom?

[short quiver]

They can.
you can buy it back up with xp

[grave gulch]

Cool cool

[orchid void]

if anywhere is haunted, that place is

[spice abyss]

Considering the cab stops, yeah.

[orchid void]

i SEEN the La Laurie house and it’s no fuckin good

Don’t know why Nic Cage bought it

[spice abyss]

Everyone who's been there comments on the place's bad vibes, yeah.

[orchid void]

go to Saint Louis Number 2? Go see Madame Laveau that should be nice too

It’s either number 2 or number 3

Much better vibes for a graveyard there

[spice abyss]

Ye

I know one of the players already plans some Baron Samedi vibes for their Geist.

[mighty zephyr]

Nic Cage is a Geist

obviously

[spice abyss]

Don't you put this idea in my head.

I will do it

[orchid void]

maybe but like

you know what HAPPEN at that house?

[mighty zephyr]

nope

[orchid void]

I wish they’d left it alone, maybe tore it down,,,

[spice abyss]

Oh boy.

[orchid void]

Madame Lalaurie bought a lotta slaves. She killed a lot of them too. In all the ways she could think of. She was exiled from New Orleans when her home burned down and they found the bodies.

[spice abyss]

Oh, they also found the still living slaves.

The fire got set by a slave trying to kill themselves to avoid punishment.

[orchid void]

They rebuilt the house, and it’s said her bones were smuggled back into New Orleans

And buried there

[spice abyss]

Anywho, the point is bad shit happened at that house.

The least bad stories are on the line of "slaves were chained to their workstations and beds"

[orchid void]

The versions I got growing up,,,

A serial killer preying on her enslaved servants

[spice abyss]

Yeah.

She literally tried to stop people from working to put out the house fire.

[orchid void]

And again, according to the ghost stories of my childhood, had her bones smuggled back into the house so she couldn’t be deprived of her properties in death

[spice abyss]

It is such perfect Chronicles of Darkness fodder, especially for Geist.

[orchid void]

Ayup Ayup!!!

im just gonna tell u that

You should make your players go to my fave spot in Nola

Dat Dawg on Feret Street - w-

[spice abyss]

Noted!

[grave gulch]

imma have a boogeyman hunt too

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1014538083905052703.gif?size=64&quality=lossless

i stole this one from hunter the vigil

children going missing i even made a handout newspaper for it

will the players be able to rescue them in time? it will depend! lets see if our heroes will venture into the abandoned tunnels of london once again in search for the creature!

[mighty zephyr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpUevK17OD0

[grave gulch]

he gon getchu voy

[short quiver]

I saw an 18th century charcoal picture in a Spanish art museum and my wife and I both immediately and independently concluded that the picture was of Nicholas Cage

[clear delta]

How have you guys portrayed the supernatural markets?

Magic items, favors, help making deals with other entities

[grave gulch]

wizard question

praxis and rotes are the spells you get when making a character right?

what do you roll when you cast those?

arcanum or skills?

[mighty zephyr]

All spells are gnosis arcana

Rotes let you add your skills to a roll

[clear delta]

Rotes also let you cast with more reach and you don't spend mana for arcana outside your ruling

Casting a rote from a grimoire doubles casting time but grants the rote quality (you reroll the failures from when you first throw the dice) and can cloak your nimbus

Praxis gives you exceptional success on threee successes and also waives the mana cost for non-ruling arcaba

[clear delta]

The cognoscente merit lets you make grimoires that don't double casting time and let the readers use your nimbus
You can use your game as a writer in social situations, and gain occultation 3

Grimoires are really cool

[grave gulch]

btw

aside from fae

i also want to use demons in my mage game

yall told me that chronicles demon is a lot better than the wod version

[high current]

depends on what kind of demon you're looking at

capital-D splat-level Demons are biomechanical monsters who are working against a cruel god-machine and have a lot of hacker/engineering stuff going on
Maeljin are evil spirits that come out of wounds in the shadow(the spirit world)
and then the Inferno has its own brood of beings called Akathartoi which are closer to biblical demons, with some of the statted up ones having recognizable names like Azazel

[grave gulch]

is that wod or chronicles?

[clear delta]

Cofd

I thought maeljin were from inferno?

[high current]

nah, they're a seperate class of spirit

similarly some of the known ones are named after recognizable demons from abrahamic mythology/the ars goetia

but they come from Wounds, which are essentially pockets of especially negative influence in the shadow

o, werewolves see the Inferno as the arch-Wound essentially i guess

but from the mage perspective, the Inferno is among the Lower Depths; pocket realms that are essentially corrupt realities, all of them missing something

[clear delta]

I thought wounds were linked to inferno

Mage question. Are legacy attainments exempt from spell control?

[radiant marsh]

It's iffy

Going by just Werewolf, Wounds are areas of the Hisil that are scarred and damaged by horrible shit that happened in the real world.

And one of the titles of the Maeljin is the Lords of the Wounds

But there being a link is only in the Inferno book, which was a standard WoD book.

So the canonicity is 'who knows?'

And in 2e Werewolf, Wounds are much the same, but the Maeljin got something of a rewrite

[chilly vault]

As is the norm for CofD

[grave gulch]

@chilly vault share demon knowledge

[chilly vault]

Which demons? Demons as in the protags of Demon the Descent?

There’s an entity out there called The God Machine (first referenced in the introductory fiction for the NWoD 1E core book and a subject of constant fascination since)

The God Machine is an inscrutable, sometimes seemingly insane being with unknown ends

It is served by angels, extremely powerful entities with very little free will

Every once in a while something goes wrong with an angel: it acts or is forced to act against its programming

And it becomes a demon

Demons have all of their old power but they have little choice but to hide it, masking it under a “cover” — a (usually stolen) mortal identity — lest the God Machine and its angels come looking for them

[grave gulch]

[chilly vault]

Demons have a couple of cool things going on

First: the classic “sell your soul” bit is how they get covers. If you make a deal with a Demon and it suddenly needs to be you, uh … it’s you now. And you are gone.

This is honestly the big unethical temptation for demons: they can evade notice with great ease if they’re willing to treat human lives like chattel

Second: nothing can detect a demon lying

Nothing

No mind magic, no fey tricks, no augury, nothing

By the same token nothing can detect them telling the truth

It’s always just your judgment

Third: demons are powerful and can hypothetically unleash this power to its fullest at any time, called “going loud”, but this destroys their current cover, and almost certainly draws down the literal wrath of god

The game bills itself as “a game of techgnostic espionage”

There’s a lot of other stuff but I think those are the broad strokes

Because of the way covers work, a demon can undergo really dramatic changes in identity which can be good roleplay fodder

[grave gulch]

think i should give their book a read too? i like that

[valid merlin]

they also have some other fun tricks related to this
a Demon can make itself truly feel any emotion they want
if there was some hypothetical door that can only be opened by true love, two Demons could totally just do that for a moment
and then stop again a few moments later

[supple quail]

i like to think it’s the same way you can’t tell if a book is lying or not, being that they’re creatures of twisted code and logic

[clear delta]

Not even truth magic detects it

Only some demoblooded can detect the lying

[grave gulch]

That's really neat

Can a demon take a wizard's body as their cover?

I imagine they wouldnt be able to use the wizards magic if so