World of Darkness

[radiant marsh]

They explicitly got rid of the terms 'vulgar' and 'covert' but you still get paradox from sleepers 'witnessing obvious displays of magic'

Key word there, Obvious

I think it's basically ST fiat at this point

[grave gulch]

i hope it works fine!

[mighty zephyr]

@grave gulch I will say, I think Awakening 2 has the best spellcasting system out of all the Mages

it's highly refined and works fantastic with little need for debate

[midnight grotto]

Ah okay. I was going to say "if these are for NPCs in another system I wouldn't use full PC-facing magic rules" but that's another matter.

In terms of homebrewing new Paradox rules in I'd say that you probably don't want to be tinkering with this rather intricate system on your first outing with it. Just being more harsh with the reading of Obvious should do some work.

[midnight grotto]

Its one downside is that it has something of a learning curve but I think there's a very useful online tool to help there

I just can't remember what it's called

[grave gulch]

i see...

[midnight grotto]

https://web.archive.org/web/20220326230349/http://www.voidstate.com/rpg/mage-spell-helper/#/ ah, so the old link is dead but you can access it via archive

[mighty zephyr]

I mean the learning curve is way shallower than something like Ascension I feel like

From my experience people who have been playing Mage 20th edition for over 10 years don't actually know how it works

[midnight grotto]

Oh I never played that so I don't have a point of reference

I meant in contrast with say, the powers in other nWoD splats

[mighty zephyr]

Ah then yes

[clear delta]

Doesn't one page contradict another?

[mighty zephyr]

Are you asking in general or for specific pages

because I wouldn't know the latter but it definitely happens

[grave gulch]

now that i'm getting the rules a little better

im feeling more excited

[midnight grotto]

Yay!

[clear delta]

I heard of it happening at least once. ANd that the character sheet section was a mess

[grave gulch]

now talking about my hunter game

i feel like using the gun wizard

guy's hella scary tho

[midnight grotto]

Gun wizard?

[grave gulch]

yeah it's one of the enemies the book presents to you

he's basically hunting hunters

he's called "armory", uses gun to hunt down and kill hunter cells, usually setting them up with fake supernatural occurrences

dont worry i'm not planning on using any actual Mage book rules on him

there's also a werewolf in the book who's usually friendly towards hunters, he's called Russell Sharp if i'm not mistaken

[chilly vault]

Splat-level supernatural beings aren't sleepers

But part of that is that they're also not human

Lesser beings, like say that hunter group that gets powers from the devil or whatever, are still very human and still cause disbelief.

[clear delta]

Thinking on the classic "deploy inner world into reality". Could lean thyrsus for the idea of the connection between you and the environment
And spirit is already used a lot with mind for astral stuff

Werewolves glaring the spiritual mess this can cause

[grave gulch]

wait a minute

:c

it does help to make shit look mundane

if they witness an OBVIOUS casting of magic it increases the paradox dice pool

if you ur like Aha Behold secret bomb under you car to justify you kaboom spell then it aint an obvious display of magic

[clear delta]

We did say that, though?

[grave gulch]

someone said it didnt matter in 2e

i dont remember who did tho

yall also did tell me to read the book so that's good

[chilly vault]

Nah they said disbelief isn't the only cause of Paradox

It can happen without any disbelief

[grave gulch]

which is fair but someone did tell me it didnt matter

[chilly vault]

But like disbelief makes it worse, and can make otherwise subtle magic vulgar if things are silly enough

Like, if a guy gets struck by lightning in the middle of a raging storm

That's probably subtle

If a guy gets struck by lightning on a clear blue day

That's vulgar

If three guys attacking you in close proximity to one another get struck by lightning during a raging storm while several other Sleepers watch

The first one was probably subtle

The subsequent ones are vulgar

It's two parts countermanding natural law, one part making the sleepers lolnope right out of believing it's possible

[high hornet]

"Nazi ghosts is something, I don't want no werewolf to wake up without its bones and getting pissed"

my characters say weird things

[grave gulch]

Aint there a ghost police?

[grave gulch]

thats fun

[high hornet]

ghost pigs

also the werewolf woke up

they were angry

[chilly vault]

It can help to think of the Abyss as a disease which uses possibility as its vector of attack

[grave gulch]

will do will do

[grave gulch]

they have a setting for london

that's where me hunter game takes place

[clear delta]

Yup. The settings are fun

Like demon's splinters

[spice abyss]

Alright, now that I'm home, I 'll explain why I said that it doesn't matter.

Because we have these.

If you are not reaching and it could still cause Wisdom loss, you can just trivially make it a chance die until you have cast your fourth obvious spell in front of sleepers.

Reaching beyond your grasp and repeatedly throwing out magic matter more to Paradox than Sleepers in 2e.

If you're unwilling to spend Mana, it takes three obvious spells in front of sleepers to make it better than a chance die.

This is assuming using your dedicated magical tool, but you really have no reason to not use it.

And if you're doing chance die Paradox, you have a one in ten chance for the cumulative spells in front of Sleepers to not make Paradox more likely.

[grave gulch]

oh when you first said it didnt matter thought that it wasnt a thing at all

[spice abyss]

No, it's worse.

It doesn't matter

[grave gulch]

boooooooooring

i really liked the idea of that

shame

still, i think the game is cool still

[spice abyss]

Unless you can build up a Paradox dice pool to 2 or more without the sleepers there, they do not matter.

[patent talon]

I guess if you want to get Paradox going you either need to introduce befouling or put them in situations where they're regularly trying to cast beyond what they can comfortably achieve

Also I was mulling over the tough onboarding of Mage, and realised you could just do...wizard school

You're all new mages, staying with a senior mage while they show you the ropes and teach you the cosmology

Seems so damn simple now I think about it

[midnight grotto]

Sensible

[grave gulch]

are you folks wizards?

Legit question tho

How complicated is it going to be to introduce new peeps to awakening?

[patent talon]

I've had a tough time with it in the past, a game where you could introduce it by saying "you know Plato's Cave?" can be a difficult sell. I've not tried to run it since I first tried for a few reasons, but one of them is that difficult sell

Honestly I'm surprised I didn't think of Wizard School as an idea earlier

[spice abyss]

My World of Darkness players that came off of Hunter went "No"

[patent talon]

When you tried to pitch Mage?

[spice abyss]

Correct.

[patent talon]

Damn, I'll be real i'd give my left arm to play Mage as a PC

[clear delta]

Yeah, mage is cool

[spice abyss]

Mage made it onto the "Games I don't run" list in the meantime.

[orchid void]

There is a secret war being fought, for the souls of all mankind. There are jailers and there are monsters and they all exist to tell you that "This is all there is" "It will never be better." "Mankind is doomed." And you, you know the Truth. That those in power are Liars, that the very foundation of their power is a Lie, a lie so grand it makes up the world as you knew it. You know better now.

[grave gulch]

nice

[chilly vault]

It is a game about power and hubris, of being able to do incredible things and knowing when not to.

[clear delta]

Truth and meaning exist. They give you power, free you to some extent from oppression. They also distance you from normal people and may tempt you to oppress others

[velvet sparrow]

"Any ignorant fool can fail to turn someone else into a frog. You have to be clever to refrain from doing it when you know how easy it is."

[grave gulch]

so tremere are their own thing here! does the word itself mean anything?

Love this mage concept tho

I'll steal it

[mighty zephyr]

They get more lore in some other books!

[short quiver]

Apparently it means "to tremble" in Latin
But in context yeah it's just reusing the name from oWoD

[high current]

ye nwod re-used a lot of owod stuff but ~different~

like how VtR has the Malkovians, which are Malkavians but as a bloodline and an o instead of an a

and WtF 1e's wolfblooded were just a shittier take on kinfolk(only existed as breeding stock, functionally useless otherwise) and the ghost children instead of metis

[radiant marsh]

The only advantages you got from being Wolfblooded in 1e WtF IIRC, were immunity to lunacy and the chance to produce a werewolf offspring

2e actually made them an interesting half-splat

[clear delta]

Were malkovians interesting at all? only remember they had a rivalry with another bloodline that frequents asylums

[radiant marsh]

One can now potentially become a WB by being attacked by a Werewolf and surviving. And one of the WB flaws is that they're subject to Frenzy, but only shift to Dalu during it.

So, boom. Classic 'get bit turn into wolfman' werewolves

[grave gulch]

wolf man go aaa

[midnight grotto]

See I thought that's what Apocalypse wolfblooded were

[radiant marsh]

They have the permanent derangement flaw, and more chance for it to flare up, but get Obfuscate

That's about it.

[midnight grotto]

I feel like if you look at someone with latent wolfiness and say "only good as breeding stock" that's on you

[radiant marsh]

Apocalypse Kinfolk at least had the ability to use some gifts and fetishes.

[high current]

Ye Kinfolk could help the Garou in ways mortals can't. 1e wolf blooded were just mortals immune to lunacy

[radiant marsh]

Though it does rather amuse me that a lot of the sketchy shit about the Garou ended up as part of the characterization of the Pure Tribes in Forsaken.

[midnight grotto]

Yeah that's where my stance comes from. Like viewing people that way seems like more of a Garou thing than an Uratha thing, based on my limited knowledge.

Maybe it was skewed by my experience but the sketchier element of Forsaken parenthood was just their habit of bailing on human partners. Lotta werewolves with mysterious absentee parents.

[spice abyss]

This comes from Uratha wither dying or realizing that they're in contrast danger of lashing out against their partner or kid.

[mighty zephyr]

They actually pivot on this

In VtR Malkavians are actually a virus in the blood that only affects Vampires

and if other domains realize your domain has it they place you under quarantine until you either prove you don't have it anymore or you all die

[high current]

mechanically it's a bloodline though, that's all i meant

[mighty zephyr]

Oh I know I meant this is a 2e thing

[high current]

o, wasnt aware they'd appeared in 2e yet

[clear delta]

The disease only makes you insane 2e?

[grave gulch]

only a lil bit of insanity

[grave gulch]

So

About me hunter game

I wanted to do a dr.frankenstein like guy for my precious baby players to hunt down

would a tzimisce vamp be ablr to pull a good dr.frankenstein?

Kind of wanted a vamp cause i wanted to do something with London's highgate cemetary have corpses go missing

The thing about highgate cemetary is that there used to be an old urban legend about a vampire that lurked there

Ya even had people who claimed to be vampire hunters going around the place and violating graves

[radiant marsh]

I don't think Vicissitude works on corpses

(Barring Vampires, of course)

A Giovanni might be a better bet, because Necromancy

Or, I guess, Hecata if you're using V5

Same thing really

[mighty zephyr]

Viscissitude can add corpses to living flesh

[grave gulch]

folks at the wod server did say that a hecata could work well either as an assistant or as the main lad

[zinc robin]

Could always throw a promethean at them but I don't think those exist outside of Chronicles

[grave gulch]

i mean i wanted my mage the awakening game to be connected to my hunter world so i could always do that

[mighty zephyr]

This is what Hololive did

Funnily enough

[grave gulch]

connect mage the awakening with hunter the reckoning?

steal things from chronicles of darkness?

[chilly vault]

Promethean would be an intensely cool thing to steal fwiw

I have certain concerns with Promethean as a game (not objective ones, just not my taste) but as an arc interacting with a promethean could be amazing

Because Prometheans are deeply, deeply tragic

And are an incredible moral conundrum

From an outside perspective, at least

The very quick pitch for Promethean is: you're a being created and animated to resemble a human. Your very presence drive humans to hatred and paranoia and poisons the land itself. Your only hope is a possibly-mythical idea that you might be able to become human -- if you embrace your existence as is, you'll go insane and become a monster.

It may not even be possible for you to complete the great alchemical working of your humanity without creating another Promethean, so ... have fun with the morality of that!

[grave gulch]

ya think it could pull a dr.frankenstein?

[mighty zephyr]

they combined chronicles and old world all over

[zinc robin]

Frankenstein was heavily an inspiration for it

[grave gulch]

neat

well then, sounds like i gotta read on promethean

if anyone happens to have a video on it you would have my thanks

[grave gulch]

ok i just read up on promethean

hoooooly

this is a whole new rabbit hole

[zinc robin]

Jup.

[orchid void]

It’s about Dysphoria i think

i say as a thing whose protoegg was cracked with it

Beautiful game

[high current]

i think its about being 'othered' in general, there isn't anything specific to prometheans about being uncomfortable in your body, more just wanting to fit in/be accepted
but hey, both interpretations are valid, congrats on having your egg cracked by it

(dysphoria feels more like a changeling or deviant thing to me--your body isn't what you want it to be, everything feels wrong. granted, i'm cis and i'm not sure if i've ever really experienced dysphoria, so if i'm understanding/explaining it wrong i apologize)

[versed zodiac]

I have a different kind of dysphoria than the one most people discuss in this server and the hell of being seen when you don't look the way you want to and feeling inherently alien and unacceptable is part of it

[twin mural]

Regarding paradox and sleepers: I didn't see that even if you, the mage, contain the paradox and make it ok, the sleeper is still hit with the Quiscence. Non-magical people just can't deal with the supernatural truth and as such are hurt by witnessing it. The more it happens, they worse their integrity gets and the worse it gets for them. So risking paradox in front of sleepers is not just about something bad happening to you, but about how ready your character is to hurt others.

Which feeds into the basic World of Darkness loop of "You're actually a monster!" very well. Plus paradox ramps up with Gnosis (your basic understanding of magic stuff), so the more powerful you're getting, the worse it can get.

[chilly vault]

Promethean is about a hell of a lot of things

It's about cycles of abuse, it's about dysphoria, it's about personal toxicity, it's about lack of agency, it's about rejection, it's about the struggle of trying to change, it's about forgiveness, it's about anger, it's about radicalization and deradicalization, it's about self-acceptance, it's about not accepting the self as a deliberate decision, it's about individuality, it's about conformity

[midnight grotto]

it's about potions

[zinc robin]

Time to play Promethean as the living embodiment of a nuclear explosion

[midnight grotto]

Zeka represent

[grave gulch]

i think i'll steal a promethean for my frankenstein's monster

i still need to decide on the dr tho

I think i like the idea for a hecata but i know nothing about them

The ground keeper could be a ghoul

[chilly vault]

This is a Promethean type yes

[zinc robin]

I'm aware

[chilly vault]

Ah okay

[orchid void]

it is about potions

we be doin internal alchemy here

do a hermetic alchemical process upon the dredges of soul, drink deep of vitriol and let it flay impurities until you reach the new dawn and magnum opus

[grave gulch]

what kind of powers do prometheans have?

[clear delta]

https://codexofdarkness.com/wiki/Transmutations

[grave gulch]

[grave gulch]

ok i had some thought

feeling shy for no reason tho aaaa

But the basic idea that i had was that for my frankenstein monster would be a promethean like character who's going around stealing body parts trying to create something like themselves

[midnight grotto]

Pretty classic Promethean stuff!

[clear delta]

Prometheans often create another of their lineage as part of their Pilgrimage

[chilly vault]

It’s part of the essential cruelty of their existence

[valid merlin]

Is creating new life not a very human thing too?

[clear delta]

I think they can do an alternative to reproduction for their pilgrimage

[grave gulch]

i'm thinking about making my own alterations too

[grave gulch]

i wanna use so much cool stuff aaaaaaa

[short quiver]

Which, incidentally, I feel really makes the Guardians of the Veil a lot more reasonable in 2E than they were in 1.
Just really making them the "stop fucking up the poor Sleepers, you assholes" Faction instead of just being sneaky jerks.

[digital siren]

Is... This non contextual truth or its just... Like that?

[short quiver]

so, part of that is the way WoD is several different games, many of which feature a sprawling and encompassing cosmology that's written without consideration of how or whether it contradicts the other games' cosmologies, but still generally assumes all the different games coexist

but yeah all that is "true" to whatever degree

except the part about Mages kicking God out? That's maybe suggested somewhere but definitely not "canon."

[grave gulch]

do ghouls turn into regular corpses when dead?

i know they age when out of vamp blood

[radiant marsh]

Yeah, Ghouls just die

[grave gulch]

damn

killing one can backfire horribly

[mighty zephyr]

These are all definitely things that were written down at one point and half of them probably got retconned

[velvet sparrow]

And then some of them probably got written back in

[mighty zephyr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

This is every Mage crossover game

[supple quail]

lmfao

love mitchell and webb look

[candid shadow]

“I can use my driving abilities to grab the girl and drive away before the werewolves even notice”

“Or I can just summon a rain of silver arrows”

[midnight grotto]

How

Show your work

[clear delta]

Love the awakening legacies. Totp introduced manipulators of social groups

They use space and life

No mind

[orchid void]

okay soooo

Forces, for weather, right, that’ll get it raining. Matter to turn raindrops to liquid silver, pull them into arrow shapes and catch it all in a bottle

Throw it at the ceiling and hope paradox does fuck me

[chilly vault]

Does?

[midnight grotto]

What kinda scale and potency are we looking at here

[grave gulch]

Today session i did a bad job the players liked it tho

[mighty zephyr]

Then you did a good job

[grave gulch]

[grave gulch]

i just felt like i could have done a better job, some stuff i wish i've explained a lil better

[high current]

what's important is that the players enjoyed it

they dont know what you had behind your screen, so feel free to shift stuff around to make it better next time

the magic of GMing is you can just change shit on a dime until it's put in front of the players

[grave gulch]

i suppose ur right

[grave gulch]

thank you

[clear delta]

I love that the dragon lore in awakening is just stuff the mages came up with to explain how the first awakenings in the Times Before happened

And the fact it's dragons comes from the tremere when they were aligned with the Diamond

[chilly vault]

Dragons are cool okay

[clear delta]

Every civilization agrees

Big reptiles cool

[chilly vault]

If you were a wizard you would pretend you got your powers from a dragon

[grave gulch]

i'm a wizard who got me powers from falling down some infinite stairs

[clear delta]

From HSR

[grave gulch]

not again!

[clear delta]

Embrace the stairs jellyfish

[chilly vault]

I warned you about the stairs jellyfish bro

[grave gulch]

wizard question

does life magic works on the bodies of the undead?

[high current]

Depends, old or new?

[grave gulch]

i dont know....didnt know that was something to consider

[high current]

Old, yes iirc. New, yes*
*Death is preferred iirc

By old/new I mean Ascension vs Awakening btw. They define their magic differently and Awakening splits Entropy into Death and Fate

[heady kestrel]

I am pretty sure in New mage interacting with Vitae is life and interacting with "The Undead" just as a general concept falls under Death

[grave gulch]

right!

[grave gulch]

anyone happen to know a way to edit a pdf? i wish to try and translate the pretty sheet for mage the awakening that i have

[high current]

you need specific programs that are intended to be used for editing, generally; a couple free ones i know of are LibreOffice Draw and PDF24

[grave gulch]

thanks!

[chilly vault]

Some interaction with corpses miiiiiiiight also be Matter?

[clear delta]

Corpses are matter and death, yeah

[chilly vault]

Death is interesting because it deals with something very abstract

[grave gulch]

Could a wizard turn the vitae inside a vamp into holy water?

Could one try to turn the iron in a werewolf's blood into silver?

How crazy can they get?

[radiant marsh]

"Yes, but..."

Probably given a sufficiently powerful mage.

But it would be complicated and difficult

And if you're using nWoD rules, every supernatural splat has a power stat that's added to any sort of supernatural attempt to mess with them

Like if a Vampire tried to use Dominate on a Mage, the Mage would add their Gnosis to resist

[grave gulch]

the mage the awakening book doesnt seem to have any stats for enemies

[radiant marsh]

Also Holy Water doesn't automatically harm vampires

[grave gulch]

it would make you look real cool tho

[zinc robin]

I think that's quite possibly one of the best ways to die to hunger frenzy

[clear delta]

With matter and prime you could make Perfected Water. If there's any sort of water that's good against vampire, Perfect Water will have its traits

[grave gulch]

Idk what perfect water is

[radiant marsh]

...I forget, is there a way that Holy Water is actually harmful in nWoD?

I know in oWoD if it was used/blessed by somebody who had True Faith, then it was effective

[zinc robin]

Take a flaw to have it hurt you

Pretty sure I saw something like that in one of the Requiem books

[clear delta]

A perfected material or object is just a sort of purified version of anything. Mages can make those. Salamanders from the astral realms create perfected fire you can use in forging, and you can slowly perfect something by a process involving swapping it between solid and spiritual with intervals

I comes from the platonic idea of the Ideal form that something comes from

A Perfect Material will have the supernatural properties otehr versions of the material would have. Perfected fire can be treated as dragon fire, for example.

(Not that we have dragons we interact with in cofd, as far as I know. We have dragon changelings, at least)

[heady kestrel]

Is it dragon fire in reference to the Atlantis ones?

Or well.. the pre Atlantis ones

[clear delta]

I think it was just an example of mystical thing

[mighty zephyr]

In Requiem instead of losing Humanity you can instead take an additional Bane

This can be like, Holy Water, can't go in uninvited, Wolfsbane, etc etc

[clear delta]

You can buy back Humanity with XP. How do you get rid of Banes?

[mighty zephyr]

c:

[clear delta]

You don't?

I see

[zinc robin]

I mean I think if you're at max humanity banes just sorta don't... do anything

[grave gulch]

i'll say the combat rules felt like the most boring in mage gib me magic!

[grave gulch]

there are fricking drug rules in here

[grave gulch]

from what the folks down at the mage the awakening server said

i can just...not use a lot of these combat rules

cause honestly lots of these just make things boring and more complicated

[mighty zephyr]

I mean combat's fairly easy

Combat roll - Defense

successes+weapon damage as damage

[grave gulch]

what really got me down was the whole many rules for grappling and the gun rules

like aha

ya get a certain bonus, for using burst, then another one for full auto

but then you use x amount of ammo when doing y

AAA

Anyways the game seems fun

i'll read up on the magic tomorrow

[chilly vault]

NWoD’s combat is pretty simple but I agree, not very compelling

[short quiver]

the Storyteller/Storytelling systems were very barebones at the time compared to the hobby in general, but by modern standards they do have a bit of fiddly detail in stuff like weapons
those standards, of course, being very influenced by White Wolf's games (and also people who hated White Wolf's games)

[grave gulch]

heh

but like i said, i can probably skip some of that without much issue

[chilly vault]

Yeh

Just focus on da wizzzerds

Mages are kind of odd in the pantheon of WoD creatures

We've got various horror movie monsters and blighted folks and then we've got the cast of The Invisibles hanging out over here

[clear delta]

It's kind funny that, of the two demonologist legacies, bene ashmedai are the ones who won't fuck with mortals and accept their members need some amount of positive attention

[chilly vault]

In fairness, goetic demons are just a class of somewhat-malign but naturally occurring spirit

And for the Ashmedai, mastering them is a self-mastery thing first and foremost

[clear delta]

I mean, clavicularius is also self-mastery

[chilly vault]

Oh, huh, in my head I was conflating the two and assumed you were talking about like Scelesti

[grave gulch]

the fun part!

[clear delta]

Yeah, was comparing to clavicularius. Tbh, messing with mortals to test them/make them "stronger" was a weird addition to tgmheir thing, considering they're about mastering their own vices and souls

[chilly vault]

Oh did they add that in 2E?

I only know them from Legacies the Sublime

Where they’re cool

What they’re doing is risky

But they’re good at it

[heady kestrel]

Honestly though I feel like just having “I am tormenting some random guy” is a really funny and very Wizard hobby to give a pc

[clear delta]

No. Their original write-up

[royal river]

So I have a specific WoD question- are Vampires technically considered aware of magic, and therefore easier targets for Mages?

Or is that a case by case thing, which I imagine it is?

[clear delta]

They're free game to target

[chilly vault]

They are not sleepers but they do get to use their supernatural resistance stat

[clear delta]

Vampires turned into lawn chairs was an oWod meme

[grave gulch]

is that something a wizard did?

[clear delta]

Players did, yeah

[grave gulch]

.w.

i dont think i wanna be anywhere near wizards

[chilly vault]

There’s a reason basically every splat’s stereotypical opinion on wizards is “you better make that first hit count, you will not get a second”

[clear delta]

Or "give them one hint of an interesting secret and they will doggedly chase you for it. So don't"

[grave gulch]

i did make a wizard thief for my hunter game

he doesnt turn people into chairs tho

just steals shit all the time

ok i went into the mage server

they told me yes

a mage can actually do that

also the chair still burns in the sun

[royal river]

One of the entry level spells for Mages in the nWoD books is the ability to do anything at precisely the right time. Their reach somehow becomes more absurd than being able to literally bend causality to their will.

Do Not Fuck With Mages

[heady kestrel]

and some Mages are also like....

There is a Threshold, where once you cross it you lose a lot of the traditonal "oh you can just beat the mage by doing X"

at like 5 or 6 Gnosis

[chilly vault]

Yeah many mages are humans with weird powers

Strong mages are not that, from an outside perspective

They are forces of nature with human motives

[clear delta]

Threshold?

[heady kestrel]

I was using capitlization to emphasize the power threshold

[chilly vault]

There’s a point at like, Gnosis 5-6, Arcana 4 or so

Where you just don’t want to fuck with them

They can make your day bad

[heady kestrel]

Big Mages can casually deal out stacks of aggravated damage
They can effortlessly switch between like... 6 distinct defensive strategies to avoid being killed instantly by a sniper like in the classic memes
They will have goons
They also have the meat of their legacy at that point

And finally, at that point they have a GIMMICK probably

like that is where "This guy is a archprelate of the Chancellor" or "This guy has 3 distinct Masques" or "This guy does a card game infinite on you in real life with magic"

become real

[chilly vault]

Meat of their legacy also means something powerful that they don’t have to worry about Paradox with and can do at basically any time

[heady kestrel]

yeah strong mages who are specced for combat don't even need spells
they just can kill you with These Hands

[chilly vault]

Like, Cult of the Doomsday Clock gets save points

As their middle attainment

[grave gulch]

wizards are scary nerds

[chilly vault]

“Oh you killed me? Nah.”

[heady kestrel]

Oh I wasn't even getting into Scelesti

Any Scelesti besides the lowest level ones are a Lot Worse Than Just A Mage

[clear delta]

Summoners can easily have minions watching over tgem, eitg a variety of powers

[grave gulch]

i feel like your best bet is that a paradox happens and ya get enough time to run away as it goes boom

[clear delta]

Supernal summoners still need circles, but tgeir summons are powerful

[heady kestrel]

that is the thing with legacies

there is no paradox risk

they can just do stuff in front of everyone

[grave gulch]

[chilly vault]

Also if a paradox happens, there’s a good chance it also happens to everyone in the area

[grave gulch]

i hope there are no evil wizards going around

[heady kestrel]

there are... there are so many evil wizards

[chilly vault]

Collateral damage is the norm with severe paradoxes

[clear delta]

Supernal summons still worry about paradox. But they can cast magic way better than mages, and each have a very special boon that doesn't follkw tge rules of magic

[heady kestrel]

there are like 4 distinct types, plus the Seers Of The Throne

[clear delta]

One group summon pandemonic demons to cause horrible disaster with much death and fear

[grave gulch]

i hope the good wizards do something about all that

cause the other splats sure as hell aint gon do much about it

[chilly vault]

There are a few splats that can go toe-to-toe

[grave gulch]

mummy?

[clear delta]

A rank 5 can cast instakill with infinite Reach. Such as advanced scale

[chilly vault]

Werewolves are shockingly good in a straight fight, it’s just that a smart mage need not engage like that

Demons can keep up if they go loud

[heady kestrel]

Mummy is obvious
I think Demons and Beasts have a decent chance to beat a equal rank mage

[chilly vault]

And yeah, Mummy

In general I like to keep inter-splat conflict limited, even if it feels unreal at times

[heady kestrel]

Honestly I feel like the big thing demons have going for them is that they can outsocial the mage
they are even better than Hunters at "you can't use your powers here without causing one morbiliion paradox" and Embeds are more versatile than Legacy attainments as free powers

[chilly vault]

The splats have their own themes and ideas they’re dealing with

Yeah the other trick is to be a scheming bastard

Mages are still human

[clear delta]

A deviant whose powers fuck with mages can exist. A high magnitude and instability one can be a good counter

[chilly vault]

They have human needs, human wants, human desires

[heady kestrel]

Demons are notably really good at exploiting that type of shit

[chilly vault]

Ye

[heady kestrel]

if you can eat the aggravated damage you could always soul pact one lmao

[mighty zephyr]

The main thing about killing a Mage is doing so before they get mage armor up

[heady kestrel]

if your really CLEVER you can pretend this is a tactical rpg and try to change tactics to get around whatever mage armor they use

using fire or electricity while they are in Fate or Death mode
Just... not using supernatural attacks when they decide to go into prime mode for some reason

[spice abyss]

Harder to manage Fate armor that way.

[heady kestrel]

I thought Fate was Armor+ and they can redirect
Fire and Electricity aren't attacks

so they can't use armor

I am talking "electricfy the puddle the fucker is standing in"

deal that 14 bashing damage

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah that's a valid workaround

[heady kestrel]

its the Flaming Grain Silo against werewolves equivalent for mages

its a weirdly precise situation to try to navigate them into so you have a chance

[mighty zephyr]

Also!

Suffocation.

[grave gulch]

what kind of creature would be scary for a mage besides another mage?

[clear delta]

The temples and ruins have troublesome guardians

[chilly vault]

Abyssal entities

Supernal entities

Spirits, demons

All kinds of things

There are also some odd things that show up and cause problems for mages and mages in particular under the right circumstances

[grave gulch]

should i make those up or are there any examples i could look at?

[orchid void]

Summoners is the book to look at for inspo

But you probably should make them up

[chilly vault]

Summoners has a really cool chapter that’s an entire class of beings which mages have no explanations for

To be clear “class” is defined here as “things we can’t explain”

Not as an actual type

[grave gulch]

what's the book complete title

[orchid void]

Summoners?

[chilly vault]

Mage the Awakening Summoners

My favorite entry is the men in black

[grave gulch]

this?

[chilly vault]

Nobody knows what the fuck they are, they seem to be distant imitations of real people, but occasionally a mage’s paradox causes an endless stream of them show up to try to lobotomize said mage. They only leave if you avoid them and don’t do any magic for 24 hours.

They’re not Abyssal. It’s not clear what they are. They’re just … weird fake government agents from nowhere.

[grave gulch]

i feel like i could also steal some of that for my hunter game

double gain

BTW

i still cant understand Rotes

i read it again and again and again

[chilly vault]

A rote is a spell you know by heart

[grave gulch]

how does it work?

[chilly vault]

You combine a particular set of stats for the roll as opposed to just fudging it

And it’s safer to do

[grave gulch]

can you give me a practical example of one being cast?

[heady kestrel]

A guy shooting a lightning bolt of his sword by using a Weaponry based route

instead of just making the lightning come out of nowhere

he extends his practice and skill(with swords) to help him cast the spell

[grave gulch]

and you would have a stat + skill roll to make it work?

[heady kestrel]

Yeah which is almost always gonna be a bigger pool than Arcanum+ Gnosis

[grave gulch]

do you start a game with that? is there a spell list that you must choose from?

i know there's a list for praxis spells

[grave gulch]

the sword would be the yantra in this case?

[heady kestrel]

you get 4 I think
its the same list

[heady kestrel]

yeah probably

[clear delta]

Yeah. Any spell can be a rote or praxis

You'll want rotes for spells that are very useful to you

A grimoire with rotes you need is something you'll negotiate for

[high hornet]

So
I got hit by hellfire this session

Ow

[clear delta]

People will set traps on useful grimoires
Or a spell that prevents you from memorizing the rote, thus you need the grimoire to cast every time

[high hornet]

So just to ask
How do you deal with demons/demon summoners as a vampire?
Other than not engaging of course

[orchid void]

c4 on important pillars, bring the whole place down

don't fight with Baali, bomb them

[high hornet]

Very fair idea yes.

I was not quite in that position but I did my best with what I had.

[mighty zephyr]

A gun

Also try to make an alliance with a priest

also make sure the priest does not survive because that cunt's gonna have like True Faith 10 if he lives

[high hornet]

Drop shroud of night bubble of darkness on the whole area, destroy their method of escape/movement, and after the second hellfire ball to the back of the skull, manage to hide so well they lose track of me

[mighty zephyr]

Domain Expansion

[high hornet]

I then remained a crispy fried nuggey while the backup we called a while ago showed up and were like "hey so we're going to deal with this and burn it all down have fun back home sweetie"

and I encouraged them to bottle some of my blood because I was full of werewolf poison and hellfire poison so like neat let's bottle my incredibly toxic blood

I don't think it's a long term plan but it sure is a plan

[royal river]

so another vague wod question: i'm thinking about a vtm game set in y2k-era new york city (specifically, Right around the turn of the millennium) and while i am willing to homebrew just about anything to justify this wonky alternate timeline i'm coming up w, i was wondering if there was any precedent for a second inquisition or similar vampire hunting organization around 1999-2000 that could be operating in/around new york?

bc i feel like thematically they're meant to tie into spycraft in the post-9/11 surveillance state, which obviously wouldn't exist yet

i know there was a huge battle for new york that allowed the camarilla to take control of it in the summer of 1999, but nothing about witch-hunters or similar. and again, i am more than willing to make shit up to justify having the human bad guys show up and escalate local tensions, but i chiefly wanna know what, if anything, i could play off of.

[mighty zephyr]

Week of Nightmares happened in 1999

[royal river]

oh shit, that it did-

it does mention ravnos being killed by parties unknown with the power of the sun

that's something to bounce off of. possibly a new york chapter of the society of leopold?

[radiant marsh]

It's also at the tail end of the whole 'Black Helicopters' X-Files government conspiracy zietgeist.

[royal river]

i can't say i've heard of that.

having just now read some of that, yeah that works too lol.

[radiant marsh]

Coincidentally it's the same sort of stuff Delta Green was riffing off, if you're familiar.

[zinc robin]

See, late 90s are interesting because that's when a lot of the Gehenna shit was going down

[royal river]

i'm going off of 5e's timeline, which ig makes it more of a figurative apocalypse?

or at least some interpret gehenna to be cyclical rather than a definitive end of the world thing

Ah! it's a war now. got it, got it

that does make it interesting. that's a period of genuine intrigue

[mighty zephyr]

Gehenna is indeed a cyclical apocalypse now

and most of the end times stuff has been retconned as a result

[royal river]

i like the uncertainty, varying interpretations, and tight politicking

better than there being an actual end of the world, instead being people killing each other over what they believe they should do to the world (and also their ancestors coming out of the ground to eat them)

again, i'm not gonna necessarily go 1:1 with the timeline, or with reality, it's more based on making the most interesting version of 1999 to me

[mighty zephyr]

My headcanon is that Gehenna is essentially the natural life cycle of vampires

Cain isn't the biblical Caine, but instead the name given to the survivor of Gehenna, the progenitor of all vampires to come after as they gorge on the blood gathered from all the world

[royal river]

and the notion of not only having just recovered from a local territorial conflict over the five boroughs, but also the beckoning causing elders to just hop across the ocean to kill more of each other? idk. it's fun

[royal river]

that is v interesting! i might crib a little bit from that.

another thing i wanted to change was specifically how the second inquisition/coalition operates, bc the notion of multiple intelligence agencies somehow coordinating with each other, especially ideologically motivated splinters of each other, is silly to me

ik wod really plays on the fantastical conspiratorial notion that somehow spies are known to scheme and cooperate together despite being notoriously paranoid people who don't even trust people within their own ranks just by nature of their fucking occupation

[radiant marsh]

Probably like a lot of the intelligence agencies during the cold war.

"You're on our side, so we're gonna cooperate on the big picture, but that won't stop us from spying on you or fucking with your operations"

[royal river]

i want decentralization. i want sectarian infighting. i want begrudging acceptance to work together on joint operations instead of this smattering of global agencies somehow having massive fuckoff budgets and working in lockstep

in short, it would most likely functionally be very similar, but i want more... dysfunction, ig.

you can make them the boogeyman's boogeyman and still have them run into mundane problems

bc you can potentially exploit those problems

[radiant marsh]

Even in the same government you're going to get infighting and politics.

So that works.

It's not 2000's US

But again, cold war example.

The KGB, being Soviet Intelligence, and the GRU, being Soviet Military Intelligence, were notorious for only working together under extreme duress, and often sabotaging one another, because they both thought the other was encroaching on their purview.

[royal river]

oh, that works out, yeah-

[radiant marsh]

Like, say if your Hunters are an FBI branch, you could have the CIA getting pissy because they're interacting with foreign intelligence services, which should be the CIA's job.

[royal river]

what makes it even more fun is that these guys are often religiously motivated (ie. the society of leopold). it's possible to have more secular subsets, but there is a definite religious throughline to it

[radiant marsh]

If they're military you have the wonderful inter-branch rivalries

If they're church based, that's even better. Because you could have the domestic government organizations go after them for basically going behind their back and doing covert action using the Church assets in America

[royal river]

so there is a higher tendency towards conformity, but when they get schismatic, heads will fucking Roll. could be a good foil to the kindred in that they only cooperate with each other enough to not kill each other, and even then it's a loose promise

[radiant marsh]

But yeah, that's a perfect way to go about it really.

From the outside it's a big scary monolith

But if you look closer it's a bunch of factions often working at cross-purposes

[royal river]

and biting each others' heads off lol

[radiant marsh]

Exactly

[royal river]

i like this. i like this a lot.

ty much for the insight

[radiant marsh]

o7

[grave gulch]

Ok

Someone gave me an extensive explanation on the details of casting a spell in awakening

That helped a lot

Now i understand most of the rules i think i need to double check the book once im home

If i gathered all the info i need to gm

I need then to plan how i am going to make tge system's introduction to my players

[chilly vault]

I guess one question is whether you want to start with established mages, or do the Awakenings in-game

Mystery Plays are a whole thing

[clear delta]

Signs of sorcery details awakenings

And adds some stuff you may elect to not use, like the "just awakened babby mage" template

[chilly vault]

Mystery Plays are cool

IIRC @orchid void has some experience doing them in-game

[clear delta]

I love transitioning myswlf by touching the fundamentals of tbe universe.
And retroactively giving people I dislike glass bones

[grave gulch]

I wanna do the awakening in game cause i feel like that way we can go slower

[grave gulch]

And paper skin?

[clear delta]

Yes

[grave gulch]

Hehe

[clear delta]

I love the example of the guy who fought a demon representing his drug addition, he came back to an universe where he had never beedn addicted

[grave gulch]

Was that their awakening?

[clear delta]

Yeah

[grave gulch]

Cool

I'm trying to think about a time wizard's awakening

Im going to write up one as an example

Something regarding getting lost inside a clock store

[clear delta]

Acanthus, then

The usual awakening for involves breaking old patterns in their lives and choosing differently

If you want some ideas

[grave gulch]

i'll take any ideas you have!

[supple quail]

HSR?

[supple quail]

background material for a campaign, a high level wizard fought some vampires but didn’t realise holy water didn’t really do anything so pulled off an impressive trick that ended up with their throat torn out

[orchid void]

hi what about mystery plays

do you want me to go fetch some

[chilly vault]

@grave gulch was thinking about how to start a game of MtAw and I know you have some expertise in starting with mystery plays

[grave gulch]

maybe i could be of some help, what do you need?

[orchid void]

Oh!

Mystery Plays are fun, I used to dislike them, til I just sat n thought

Going thru a Mystery Play is a tutorial for mages, teaching them to think in symbols and avoid the Lie, so that’s the beats you hit

Intro > change > problem > revelation

[radiant marsh]

I've had similar happen before, except it was a HtV Hunter

[orchid void]

By the mystery play, the Supernal truth is revealed - w-

[radiant marsh]

Aegis Kai Doru. Loads up with artifacts, makes a big speech to his target about how his magics are useless.

Mage shrugs and pulls out a gun

[clear delta]

Honkai star rail. A game cursed by being gacha

[orchid void]

If you want @grave gulch I can go pull up the npc cabal I wrote up

It’s an excuse to show off Lucy

[radiant marsh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OExX3U__H8s

POWERFUL WIZARD GUN

[clear delta]

What I posted was a sort of god of subjectivity, mystery and lying. Mythus, the Enigmata
Due to THEIR association with stairs, I thought appropriate

[grave gulch]

yes pls

[orchid void]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/109T1J1CXJ7sGDR2vZ2VWNQYv2R8Qz-bGYccXnT0QRik/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y6uPNWa0BjaPE1J5gdT7HCwYT7F8_8apntCY-sarseg/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SucQf_3rDNPWu5hRt4AEG4Iwl16DiYmaNeK2FWxACNw/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wbWw6U2PqDPAXx-1fDpDaImpeX5VTRuWzqbvftmV9Zg/edit

https://docs.google.com/document/d/15lu2xX0AYgfgrpwNND9G7Ty0j7RjFhh56gt2JmZ3lb8/edit

Every one of these fools had a Mystery Play

[grave gulch]

imma save these in my lil mage folder

[grave gulch]

have i mentioned how my hunter players have gone into a vampire club?

[royal river]

you have not, and i'd like to hear it

[grave gulch]

one of the characters is looking for his ex wife who got turned into a vamp they recently met up with her brother who's also looking for her

and he gave them some insight on some vamp hotspots where he was going to look for her

they went into this club to basicaly ask for some info on her, one of the players has a supernatural aura that makes creatures of the night to mistake him for one of their own

i didnt plan to have any vamps who are hostile to the party here but ya never know what kind of crazy shenanigans players will do

there is one specific vamp who's going to be causing trouble to them tho...

and that's the one i'm using as the dr.frankenstein i wanted to

[royal river]

Oo, fun >:)

[acoustic plaza]

Oh my god

The bloodlines ost is

So

Fucking

GOOD

Probably contends with the OG Hellsing ost as my favorite vampire themed songs

[mighty zephyr]

my favorite Vampire Music is Jorn Lande's dracula album

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsjgP5YLetI

[acoustic plaza]

While I do like the bloodlines ost’s post rock and techno stuff

Really nothing can beat the weird jazz fusion stuff on the OG Hellsing Raid/Ruin records

[grave gulch]

Friends

Could you suggest me some background music for the vamp club my players went in

[velvet sparrow]

The bloodlines ost

[mighty zephyr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKRRWQq5f5E

[grave gulch]

I like

[mighty zephyr]

A lot of the Shapes And Beats OST works

[mighty zephyr]

also you can just put this on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSTi3trxR2E

[radiant marsh]

Does the bloodlines club music count as retro now?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiYXNaQ4Fbg

[orchid void]

prolly

i know Ghoultowns in there

[clear delta]

Mind thyrsus. Generally, those are focused on the dreaming earth, but someone focusing on memes in the temenos could be interesting. Or how human culture interacts with the shadow

[grave gulch]

so when it comes to the "special" it says the amount of paradox dice changes depending on your gnosis

so if i over reach

and i have 2 gnosis

i get 2 paradox dice times the amount of over reach levels?

[spice abyss]

Gnosis 2 means 1 Paradox per Reach.

[grave gulch]

right

it only increases from the 2nd lvl foward?

[spice abyss]

You have an amount of free Reach equal to the number of dots you have in an Arcana.

[grave gulch]

oh i thought u always had 1 free reach

so if i have 3 dots in death i have 3 free reach?

[spice abyss]

Yep

[grave gulch]

nice nice

[spice abyss]

There is a reason I say Paradox is a choice.

[grave gulch]

not if i'm mean

i probably shouldnt since it's my first time dming tho

fucking wish it was more of a problem tho

i love the concept for it

also

what are the splats that can go toe to toe with mages again?

i remember demons and mummies

[velvet sparrow]

Depends on the Mage and whoever is going against them

[grave gulch]

newbie mages

[velvet sparrow]

And what you mean by 'toe to toe'

[grave gulch]

idk english is that the incorrect term?

[velvet sparrow]

A mage is never gonna win a head on fight with a werewolf, for example

Unless we're talking about like, a 700 year old archmage against a two-day old werewolf

[grave gulch]

so werewolves are still going to be very scary

good

[clear delta]

I mean, a master could pull an instakill spell

[velvet sparrow]

Right, but the werewolf would have some resistance/tricks to pull themeselves against it, no?

Unless the werewolf is massively outmatched by the mage, which is my point

(I've not read Chronicles Werewolf, but them not being able to resist feels... not right)

[clear delta]

Okay. Just thought pulling both archmage and young werewolf was much

[clear delta]

Oh, you can resist spells

[velvet sparrow]

It was a little bit of hyperbole

[clear delta]

Supernaturals use their power stat as a bonus

[velvet sparrow]

In a white-room fight, with both parties of equivalent skill, the werewolf is probably going to rip the Mage a new one.

[clear delta]

But, archmages instawin against anyone on the level of playable character whenever a clash of wills (supernaturally resist an effect) happens

Basically

archmages are in a specific class of being

alongside rank 6+ beings

Where they're partially plot devices

You'll note rank 6+ beings will probably be lacking some stuff on their character sheet. Because they work more on plot

The representation of death within the collective human soul can't be beaten. You can't trick them. If you offer your life for the answer to a question, you die, no two ways about it. Trying to magically force someone to take the deal results in Death killing you and giving your victim the answer you wanted

[spice abyss]

In Chronicles, uhhhh. no

[radiant marsh]

Depends on the Mage and depends on the werewolf

Like your social-maxxed Mastigos getting into a fistfight with the Blood Talon Rahu whose entire sheet is centered around new and creative ways to dismember things is PROBABLY not going to end well for the Mage.

(Though this is a Mastigos we're talking about so he probably wins by default anyway)

[grave gulch]

i also imagine the majority of mages arent the insane kind

[clear delta]

Just teleport

[radiant marsh]

But it's not like...

oWoD "any starting werewolve gets multiple actions per turn and WILL shred you before you get to move" overpowered

[clear delta]

Bad social situations? Teleport

In physical danger? Telport

Sad and don't want to show your tender emotions? Teleport

[grave gulch]

is teleporting bad for u if u have motion sickness?

[radiant marsh]

Depends on how you do it probably

[velvet sparrow]

📝

[radiant marsh]

But yes

The Mastigos Always Wins ™️

[clear delta]

Why?

I usually hear of acanthus winning most things

[radiant marsh]

Because in 1e at least, Space and Mind were broadly useful, and very easy to pull off bullshit with

[grave gulch]

now you'll have me thinking of ways of messing with the acanthus

[clear delta]

Well, true. Long distance mind control can be very useful

[mighty zephyr]

Acanthus win because they rewrite the cause and effect of scenes

[radiant marsh]

Acanthus are Fate as a major, right?

[mighty zephyr]

Fate and Time

[radiant marsh]

Yeah, that tracks.

[grave gulch]

Voy is back

[mighty zephyr]

The two most bullshit Arcana

I never left I'm just at work

[radiant marsh]

Shocking absolutely nobody who knows my character preference, I liked the Thyrsus

[mighty zephyr]

Thrysus and Obrimos are my favorite

[clear delta]

Spirit is nice for giving creatures with a variety of powers but you gotta negotiate with them, and be mindful of shadow politics/ecology

Life for all the shapeshifting

[mighty zephyr]

The thing is btw is that yes Mummies can mollywhop most Mages

But the main thing is that they are completely immune to Fate and Time spells

But they're also weak to fire

So a Mage can still shoot them with a fireball or whatever

But they can't just erase them from the plot

[radiant marsh]

Mummies also have the whole negative power scaling thing going on.

[mighty zephyr]

Low level Mages are fairly balanced

It's just as they scale you gotta constrain them or else the game gets boring

[grave gulch]

Any examples on how i could do that?

[radiant marsh]

But yeah, Mummies start at 10, and then get lower the longer they're active.

And then 'die' when they hit 0, and return to Duat.

[mighty zephyr]

Political machinations, rival mages both in and out of the pentacle, gods demanding tribute, and a time limit

[short quiver]

have people talking about vampire music mentioned Switzerland's 2007 Eurovision entry? https://youtu.be/0ydRhwnwk-s?si=-ZPbZPe71glF4_BI

[clear delta]

Just sell your soul to a single god to keep the others away. What's the worst that could happen?

But seriously. A lesser god with a bunch of mage minions is interesting

[grave gulch]

sell it to me

i'll give you a cute domesticated fox

i just need to you to vanquish some hunters for me

the regular kind

turn them into foxes

[clear delta]

Hmm. Could do a fox god

The Fox pangaean lingers, and seems to use the mass s**cides of hybrids of fox spirit and human to create stronger fox spirits

[high current]

you have 1 free Reach for being able to cast a spell, and then 1 addition for each dot you have in that arcanum in excess of the requirement--so casting a Death 1 spell when you have Death 3 is 3 free Reach, but casting a Death 3 spell would only be 1

and the Gnosis-based Paradox numbers are listed on the Gnosis table; it goes up every 2 levels(1 and 1-2, 2 at 3-4, 3 at 5-6, etc)

[grave gulch]

[high current]

Rotes are an exception to the Reach rules btw, when you cast a spell as a Rote you're treated as having 5 dots for Reach purposes(so a 1-dot Rote always gives 5 Reach, even if you've only got 1 dot in the arcanum for it)

on top of being able to add your dots in a skill to the spellcasting roll

[grave gulch]

so your rote and praxis spells can basically get all the reach buffs you desire?

[spice abyss]

Pretty much

[clear delta]

Bokor are funny. At least in 1e, they had no cap on the amount of people they could curse, but had to renew it for each one

So imagine amage getting up in the morning, looking over a list, and redoing the curse on each one

[grave gulch]

I need some ideas for mage stories im mixing owod and chronicles btw so feel free to hit me with anything

[mighty zephyr]

https://youtu.be/wRyC8yQBeYY?si=pxGGjF6Q3YP-ww_Z

Awakening

[grave gulch]

I kind of wanted to have awakenings in game so yeah that works too

[high current]

Maybe look at Bruva Alfabusa's Norfolk Wizard Game for inspiration
The awakenings have all been sick

[grave gulch]

will do

[mighty zephyr]

Yes do that

Watch each of them 10 times

[supple quail]

alfabusa mage game in the youtube watchlater straight jorkin it. and by it lets just say. my attention span

[midnight grotto]

https://gyazo.com/7a4b0458ebee10265e6459c9bc926d33 Certified Silver Ladder post

[heady kestrel]

Love the silver ladder

[chilly vault]

The silver ladder are the best

[tardy grove]

Information is never lost

[versed zodiac]

it is under chaos theory

but the "information" being discussed is not the kind of information you're thinking about

[tardy grove]

ah, becomes irrecoverable I guess

[orchid void]

I CURSE ENTROPY! I CURSE THE SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS!

[grave gulch]

Question

For mage the awakening

Im not sure if i asked this here but lets say i have 3 dots on death

Would a death spell i cast be at 3 potency?

[high current]

It depends. Spells listed in the book have a primary spell factor; that spell factor(duration or potency) can be upgraded to a step equal to your dots in the primary arcanum for the spell

(you can spend 1 Reach to swap the Primary Spell Factor)

For Creative Thaumaturgy, iirc, the semi-official suggestion to figure out the psf is to ask "what does a more powerful version of this spell look like?"

[high current]

eg, a more powerful version of 'hold this person in place' would hold them longer, so the primary spell factor would be duration; a more powerful version of 'yeet this fucker that direction' would push them further, so the primary spell factor would be potency

[grave gulch]

right right

[velvet sparrow]

Actually, this is a question I think I might have asked before, but cannot remember and am still confused about: Is it possible to increase a spells Potency and Duration?

Awakening 2e

Because, it says you can increase a spells Primary Factor, and that you can increase the factor to an Advanced one for a Reach, but says nothing about doing anything to anything other than the Primary

Which, there's a lot of spells that do things based off both

Oh, wait, I remember now. You can increase Factors however you want, the Primary one gets free bonuses

[high current]

ye, primary is a free increase of "(Arcanum - 1)" aka 'to the step equaling your arcanum dots' they just worded it weird to avoid people being especially dumb
all others can go up at the cost of 2 dice per step

so a spell with primary duration can still be made Potency 3 at the cost of 4 dice

this is why yantras are useful 🙂

[velvet sparrow]

Which are Yantras again

Those are the non-skill dice pool increases, no?

(The skills are too, but those are only for Rotes so)

[high current]

ye, stuff like chanting in high speech, pointing a wand, performing a ritual under the light of the full moon, etc

Awakening 2e's answer to Ascension's Paradigm/Focus

[clear delta]

Isn't that just focus? What you use when casting

Paradigm is more about the kinda mage you are

[chilly vault]

Desty Nova MtAw character when

[high current]

paradigm is kind of a catch-all for your magical styling iirc

[grave gulch]

can fae mess with wizards?

[chilly vault]

Yes

[mighty zephyr]

Ya

[chilly vault]

There's a whole trope about "idiot Acanthus hears a Changeling mention Arcadia"

Thinks "oh Arcadia that's the cool place I know"

[mighty zephyr]

Everything can mess with Mages if you assume the average Mage is only around Gnosis 3

[chilly vault]

Goes there

Does not return

[grave gulch]

i'm also asking cause i heard the fae are pretty scary

[chilly vault]

(Because they've been turned into a toilet seat)

The true fae, in their domains, are often close to godlike

Changeling: the Lost's Arcadia is a bad place and unless you're a changeling or a fae you do not even want to approach it

Is it the same Arcadia as the one from Mage? You decide

This was deliberately left an open question

[grave gulch]

i've been wanting to use demons and fae

[chilly vault]

(Personally I tend towards "CtL Arcadia is to MtAw Arcadia as the Underworld is to Stygia and the Shadow is to the Primal Wilds")

(But I'm also not super invested in crossover stuff period)

[grave gulch]

i like crossover stuff

but maybe that'1s just because i like hunter

even tho you dont go into the deeps of the other splats when they show up in hunter

[valid merlin]

IIRC Mage stuff also doesn't work against some of the fae stuff

[grave gulch]

it's fun to have the option of throwing a werewolf against my players

[chilly vault]

Yeah true fae are specifically not enemies a Mage is well equipped to face, generally speaking

[grave gulch]

who faces them?

other fae?

[chilly vault]

Changelings do better than most

But the big thing is that CtL Arcadia is surrounded by a dimension called "the Hedge"

Mages may sometimes think they can navigate the Hedge

They can't

They may even be especially vulnerable since the Hedge has a tendency to flay your, er, soul

[grave gulch]

ok fae are the new worst thing ever to come across in wod

[valid merlin]

no one ideally

you don't want to fight a True Fae

[grave gulch]

scary

[valid merlin]

And if you do, they are very hard to actually deal with
Each Fae can have multiple titles, or parts of themselves, and you need to deal with all of them

[grave gulch]

that sounds really cool

[valid merlin]

They tend to just slink away if they are somehow actually losing

[grave gulch]

are there any ways i could use them and still make it fun for a mage party? or am i better off just going for something else?

cause i really liked the idea of it

[clear delta]

Actually, as of 2E, definite no

[grave gulch]

@clear delta keep talking

tell me more

[clear delta]

What's yer offer for my info?

[grave gulch]

potassium

[clear delta]

Aight. You want more mage stuff? There's in fact a famous druid group in mtaw

However, they don't quite use nature magic

They are the Walkers in mists. They use natural places to enter another realm, that they can use for space travel and to gaze at the past and future

A famous member was Myrddin, aka Merlin

[grave gulch]

so they can use a forest as a gateway to a different place?

[clear delta]

He was known for great deeds, but also for being a manipulative bastard

[clear delta]

Yeah. Never took a close look at their powers, so I can't get too specific about their rules and quirks

But it's an interesting take on druids

In-universe, it's unknown if the title of Merlin, a high position among the Walkers in Mists, came from the historical Merlin, or if he was just known for his title

[grave gulch]

that's neat!

reminds me of irish folklore

lakes could be seen as a way to go into the other world

[clear delta]

On to nature mages. 1E seemed to be more into the division of civilization and nature, introducing a group of shapeshifting mages then going "yeah, if you join them you gotta abandon the city, oh and they're going into extinction due to urbanization"
2E seems more sane about that. Everything is part of one big ecosystem, and there's one evil mage talking about a city like an organism she seems to love, and she manipulates events across it to cause floods and gentrification

[velvet sparrow]

Oh so this is what that conversation was about

[clear delta]

Hmm?

[velvet sparrow]

"Is gentrification like bimbofication for cities" - a quote a friend said

[clear delta]

Ah, I see

[versed zodiac]

well

hmm

[clear delta]

Toxic yuri between mage and spirit of the city

[versed zodiac]

hmmm

maybe

maybe

[clear delta]

An interesting legacy are the dreamspeakers, a reference to teh dreamspeakers of ascension

The Awakening version projects into the astral realms to reach the soul of the planet and commune with the entities there

[grave gulch]

wax changed pfp

||i dont actually have a problem with it btw||

[clear delta]

I went through a few iteraions

I used Bucephalus for a bit

[grave gulch]

what that?

[clear delta]

One of the monsters in Tom's upcoming rpg

Bucephalus is an ogre, and my pfp is of a woman with another ogre behind her

[grave gulch]

i like ogres

my dnd character has one as an adoptive son

[clear delta]

https://x.com/Orbitaldropkick/status/1811464068252782664
https://x.com/Orbitaldropkick/status/1806056575389368440

evil deadman (@Orbitaldropkick) on X

damn its actually coming together

Twitter · Jul 11, 2024, 6:14 PM

evil deadman (@Orbitaldropkick) on X

OGRES

Twitter · Jun 26, 2024, 8:06 PM

[grave gulch]

neat

also scary

i wanna hide

[heady kestrel]

oh I remember this
this is very real

Thyrsus Seers of the Throne are on some JUICE
There is another Thyrsus who is... I forget if she is Adamantine Arrow or Free Council but views imperialism as a predator/prey cycle to emulate in her magic

[supple quail]

i like to think every now and again some poor mage awakens in mage arcadia, takes one wrong step to the left and ends up in fae arcadia

awakening is a renewable changeling machine

[chilly vault]

Absolutely, so long as the players are down with an enemy that is extremely resistant to their bullshit and can bullshit right back

Frankly that probably makes them an excellent Mage enemy

Because True Fae are genuinely terrible foes

[grave gulch]

nice nice

i had a hunch that a mage game would be a better place for fae and demons

[chilly vault]

If you want to lean into crossover stuff it could also give them an opportunity to meet Changelings

[grave gulch]

Idk much about changelings but i'll check

[chilly vault]

But like a True Fae is the kind of enemy who might be able to treat “they hit me with time-magic bullshit” as losing a health bar

“This isn’t even my last phase”

“How many phases do you have”

“Ehehehehehe”

You could absolutely base a whole Mage storyline around fighting one

[chilly vault]

Changelings were people kidnapped and tortured by the True Fae, who managed to escape Arcadia and the Hedge

They are forever changed by the experience

Carrying something of the Fae within themselves now

[grave gulch]

i might consider that, i like that idea

[chilly vault]

And they’re trying, very hard, to figure out how to live in a world that they have been pulled out of

In very unpredictable ways

[grave gulch]

they sound tragic

[chilly vault]

They are, although they can also tell stories about recovery

Fundamentally their stories are about abuse survivors, but those stories can go a lot of ways

Also their meetings with Acanthus mages can be spectacularly unpleasant

As people with very different takes on what faerie shit is all about

[clear delta]

DaveB mentions changeling arcadia really pings for mage arcadia plus pandemonium.

Which makes sense, it's all about fate and time, yes, but also about dreams and feelings

Wyrd stuff is now manipulated through fate and mind magic

[chilly vault]

That tracks

[grave gulch]

watching adventure time "stakes" makes me want to do something similar haha

my players are about to get involved with vamps after all and i did have an idea for a coterie for them to hunt(i dont plan on making them fight all of them at the same time)

[valid merlin]

True Fae also have the fun component of being arrogant fuckers, who probably won't take anything serious at first
but if you do actually manage to knock off a title or two, they will quickly get a lot more intense

[grave gulch]

AAA ok so, remember how i wanted to have a vampire as some kind of Dr.Frankenstein? i just figured how i want my promethean to show up

you know the vamp club?(i didnt plan a whole lot when they went in there last session i didnt plan ANYTHING for that session actually)

ok i dont know a whole lot about blood bonds but i probably dont need to be super accurate with them

but im assuming if you shatter a bloodbond or if they dont renew it the master doesnt really notice(this is just for me, players wont need that info)

[clear delta]

Reminded tgat some once described it as them going from
"Ohoho, you made me hopping mad!" Turns someone into a rabbit
To
"Fuck you die die die"

[grave gulch]

i was planning on having this vampire be going behind her master's back to create a creature that could kill him for her, after she managed to free herself from the bond they shared, it would be her and some other vamps who want the guy dead, players will be going after all of them eventually( thinking of having like 4 in total) the thing is the promethean went rogue

and is hunting her down now

one of the players who has a supernatural aura is able to blend in with vamps he's the one who's about to talk to her

and for that i was thinking, maybe the vamp used the blood of another supernatural alongside her blood sorcery in order to create this thing, i wanted this to sort of create a choice for them to betray her, this other supernatural would make a counter offer

this is mostly me brainstorming so pls do give me your feedback

i want to know what yall think

or maybe the promethean himself could make the offer

[chilly vault]

Oh, fun thing about mages

They are not immune to Promethean disquiet

Since they’re still basically human

[valid merlin]

they can protect themselves against it if they know about it IIRC
but yeah

[grave gulch]

promethean disquiet is the thing that basically makes everyone hate them?

[valid merlin]

yeah

[grave gulch]

sound like a hinderance

i mean i knew about it but dang being a promethean doest not sound fun

[valid merlin]

it's not

[grave gulch]

i read the intro to that book and one thing that sounds really sad is how they want to make more of themselves to not be alone but also feeling bad for imposing that life upon another person

[chilly vault]

And often making another is an essential part of the quest to become human

[grave gulch]

i do remember that while on that path they might end up doing some bad things

[chilly vault]

But at the same time if you just lean into being a Promethean and embrace your nature you tend to go insane and end up centimani

[valid merlin]

likely
though some of the Refinements would probably say that's a step to becoming human too

though how correct they are on that is questionable

[chilly vault]

Prometheans are specifically in an impossible situation

[grave gulch]

pretty sad

and dang unless ur a super natural u'll end up hating them too

[valid merlin]

quite a few of the supernatural splats are still affected by it too AIUI

[chilly vault]

Part of it enforces the premise that a Promethean must move on

Staying in one place, standing still, only causes them and everyone around them pain

[heady kestrel]

Other dimensions are effected by it

If you got to the hedge it will set itself on fire to try to burn you a way out

[chilly vault]

And on a foundational level there’s a validity to that

You are an abomination that taints the earth by your very presence

People have very, very good reasons to want you somewhere else

[grave gulch]

true

now

that does help me with the promethean

any other comments on my ideas? i would love to have your feeback!

[chilly vault]

I love it, actually

It’s perfect Promethean-creation melodrama

[chilly vault]

And yeah it means a friendly Promethean can’t really join the party. They have to keep moving.

They are by definition an arc character

[grave gulch]

true true

is it common for them to hate their creators?

cause the one in did book did

[mighty zephyr]

The only thing that's fully immune to Disquiet are Beasts and I think that's hilarious

[chilly vault]

It’s gonna depend but it’s certainly not uncommon since their creators have a tendency to go insane from disquiet and try to kill them

Also you know unsurpassed incomprehensible hubris

[sacred viper]

The average Prometheus creator is a huge dick without Disquiet anyways

[grave gulch]

so vamp lady wanting to trade his death for info sounds like a good fit

[chilly vault]

Yeah

[grave gulch]

also tremere are a-holes so it fits even more

[valid merlin]

cue Beast going "oh, you are a universally reviled monster hated by everyone? just like me fr fr"

[chilly vault]

“You created me so that I could murder someone for you. I’m not half the abomination you are,” is a sick motivation.

[grave gulch]

nice nice

[grave gulch]

also prometheans dont have any real weaknesses do they?

just hit em till they die probably

[mighty zephyr]

Fire

fairly sure

[grave gulch]

like most things it seems

that works fine tho, i have a few ideas as to how to show that to the players

[chilly vault]

Yeah, fire — can’t have a mob chase you down with pitchforks and torches if the torches aren’t terrifying, after all XD

[grave gulch]

i decided that instead of having the lad going around stealing body parts i'll have him steal blood instead, people getting abducted, when they are found again people have no memory of the events

maybe i could have one guy losing a leg

[chilly vault]

It’d be interesting if the blood-stealing introduced ambiguity about what was happening

Since typically that’s a vampire thing

[grave gulch]

true! the vamp lady after all is not going to be telling them that she made a frankenstein

is the guy using lightning for his alchemy too on the nose?

[chilly vault]

I’m pretty sure Prometheans have a whole lightning powerset

And love lightning in general

[mighty zephyr]

Correct

they're healed by electricity

[clear delta]

Frankentein's lineage uses elcetricity to create more of themselves

Each lineage has its ritual

[grave gulch]

this just gets better and better

i was planning on having his lab be inside highgates cemetery

that just helps with ambiguity, because of this one urban legend they have about a Vampire that lived there(that was a whole thing irl)

[clear delta]

Also prometheans can come back from death once
Osirans can do so multiple times

[grave gulch]

cool

[supple quail]

i kind of understand the capability of beasts but like, as people what are they like/how do they view things?

the impression i got is that they’re more mythological monsters riding a human body and as such are trying to keep cover whilst doing monster stuff

[grave gulch]

What are beasts again?

[supple quail]

like mythological creatures kinda, feed on fear, heroes spawn in every now and again and try and kill them

[grave gulch]

ooh

[mighty zephyr]

Beasts are living nightmares and embody both mythological creatures and urban legends

or any type of fear really

They tend to view things through the lens of a religious society aching for answers for their condition which is how you get the Culture of Lessons and the Dark Mother

The Dark Mother being the mother of all monsters (including Mages which I still need to see a written explaination of)

and the Culture of Lessons being the "we exists to torment humans to make them appreciate life" and the reason Beast is held up as abuse apologia

Beasts mainly like justification for their hunger, finding ways to eat that don't make them feel evil for feeding