Honestly I love the Atlantis lore
#World of Darkness
heady kestrel
orchid void
Yeah, 2e tightened it up
hidden rock
Oh it's great
orchid void
The Atlantis stuff is cool but it was over present
hidden rock
It's really great, but the orders need room to breathe
heady kestrel
1e for history 2e for actual modern dynamics
heady kestrel
Yeah but I don’t have that : (
hidden rock
Honestly, the worst thing I could say about an Order is the Mysterium is a bit predictable
versed zodiac
sounds like you need newvolo
heady kestrel
The silver ladder got real…. Far Left Egalitarian Protestant Rich People energy that I like
hidden rock
Well meaning, highly entitled assholes. It feels so real.
short quiver
I mean, generally, yeah. "Worked" just means it's been crafted by human effort.
So couldn't use, like, a femur the way an Obrimos might but consumer goods should count as "worked" by default.
heady kestrel
Well meaning, highly entitled assholes. It feels *so real*.
Not just highly entitled, but believe everyone should be this highly entitled.
Its real “the seers of the throne if they were cool”
Like iirc the seers used to be part of the silver ladder
Or at least a solid chunk of them
Or maybe it was vis versa
short quiver
So, the Silver Ladder are one of the Orders in Mage: the Awakening.
They're kind of the default Leader faction in the setting. They're also the most profoundly utopian. Their whole idea is that they're going to fix the world and lead everyone to enlightenment and magical power so that everything can get Fully Enchanted Luxury Gay Multidimensional Communism.
orchid void
I love the Ladder bc they go “hey why the FUCK is starvation a concept. We should kill it.”
patent talon
Real that for tbh
heady kestrel
On the grindset of those warlords who say that they would have killed the Roman’s for going after Christ
hidden rock
What is their horrible grimdark, tragic flaw tho?
They Know Better
orchid void
What is their horrible grimdark, tragic flaw tho?
They think Hubris is a Skill Issue
heady kestrel
What is their horrible grimdark, tragic flaw tho?
They think hubris just means you aren’t trying hard enough
hidden rock
God, that chapter
heady kestrel
Also they are imperialist
Like cosmically
orchid void
IMPERIUM IS THE BIRTHRIGHT OF HUMANITY
heady kestrel
IMPERIUM IS THE BIRTHRIGHT OF HUMANITY
THE LAW OF THUNDER
(Pretty sure that is thunder)
hidden rock
What if Icarus was a warning tale that you should try better?
fair jungle
Technically the Abyss was created by God but ok latter -man
short quiver
What is their horrible grimdark, tragic flaw tho?
And "I am going to lead everyone to a utopian future" has a whole thing where the utopian future is kind of a long-term thing while the "I am going to lead everyone" can be a lot more immediate.
orchid void
Diamond, Thunder, Star, and Blood
heady kestrel
The abyss was not created by god
Or maybe it was but then god is an enemy
The Cult Of Human Divinity
fair jungle
And "I am going to lead everyone to a utopian future" has a whole thing where th...
They are reminding me of someone that is very tall, red, and has one eye.
short quiver
What if Icarus was a warning tale that you should *try better*?
I mean Daedalus got off fine maybe don't fly too close to the sun 5head
acoustic plaza
Is this CoD or OWoD?
orchid void
The Abyss was made when the Exarchs seized the Empty Thrones of Heaven
heady kestrel
Is this CoD or OWoD?
Chronciles
acoustic plaza
Gotcha
fair jungle
Ah right, so is not tthe oWoD Abyss
hidden rock
I mean Daedalus got off fine maybe don't fly too close to the sun 5head
Or just make better godaamn wings. Skill issue!
acoustic plaza
Ah right, so is not tthe oWoD Abyss
Yeah that’s were wraiths go
heady kestrel
Abyss is the big nonsense garbage noise dimension paradox comes from
versed zodiac
Hubris is a skill issue: be better instead of not being better
hidden rock
Hubris is when you think you're better than you are
versed zodiac
Simply dab on the gods instead of trying and failing
hidden rock
The solution is obvious
heady kestrel
I think its really funny that silver ladder has a even more liberal views of paradox than the fucking seers
Seers are like “damn doing all this Supervillany is bad for my mental health” 😔😔😔
valid merlin
so sad the Seers died of Ligma
versed zodiac
Who the hell are the Seers?
heady kestrel
The Seers Of The Throne
The Cult Of The Iron Seals
short quiver
Ah right, so is not tthe oWoD Abyss
Yeah, in CoD the Abyss is the separation between the Fallen World and the Supernal World (think 'Platonic Truth')
It's a distortion and a failure of understanding that curses humanity and destroys the Supernal in the world, cut in a wound across every human soul.
It's also a pace that awful alternate timelines, nonfunctional variants on physics, and gribbly monsters periodically crawl out of.
heady kestrel
The Traitors against humanity whom serve our tyrant gods
versed zodiac
Ligma balls!
heady kestrel
Who gaze upon the skies and the entrails of dead animals to hear the whispers of men turned symbols
short quiver
Who the hell are the Seers?
The Seers of the Throne are the guys who hear that humanity has been subjected to the rule of eternal tyrants that root out and destroy the fulness of enlightenment and human potential and start asking about the dental plan.
valid merlin
Luna was just going with the bit
heady kestrel
yeah but its a good time to answer for world of darkness only fans
short quiver
~~Luna was just going with the bit~~
(ah that makes sense)
velvet sparrow
Oh, I have a question
heady kestrel
What’s up
velvet sparrow
Tell me about the Guardians
Well, not me, but rather
A friend who is wanting to make their character one
I've joined the Mysterium, myself
heady kestrel
The guardians believe magic only deserves to be in the hands of good people
That causing paradox is a direct moral failing
That they have to become everyone else’s monster in order to control that
They do stuff like act like the CIA, and make sure that people who are awakened get recruited
Also they have some more esoteric religious aspects in the inner circle
Where they talk about a savior coming to mankind and shit
velvet sparrow
You can be like, a Guardian who hasn't been inducted into the whole Esoteric Tenants thing yet, right?
heady kestrel
Oh yeah ofc
velvet sparrow
Or even one who doesn't believe in them
heady kestrel
Yeah
velvet sparrow
Cool cool
versed zodiac
That’s the wizard grindset
heady kestrel
I honestly find it funny how spiritual mage is as a game
sacred viper
Cults made up magic as a reason to hang out
short quiver
Tell me about the Guardians
Magic is deeply dangerous, and the "Wise" are often almost staggeringly irresponsible with the handling of it.
The unenlightened coming into contact with the Supernal harms the Sleeper, it harms the Supernal, and letting Paradox slosh around everywhere harms the world.
Someone needs to keep the secrets secrets and deal with anyone who's becoming dangerous.
heady kestrel
Guardians barely escaped not being called a Banisher order when they first showed up
By saying “nonono some people deserve magic”
short quiver
To tweak a Pratchett quote
"We do."
"But who watches you?"
"We do that, too."```& for the Esoteric stuff, I've had a couple people I know play GotV who assumed that the Heiromagus was just a story the Order liked to tell itself to feel better that goes "someday, no one will need to do this."
mighty zephyr
Tell me about the Guardians
@orchid void
queen heron
Also they are imperialist
Like cosmically
this one is probably the more important one yeah
not just cosmically
they can have blind spots for the sake of the "One Awakened Nation" thing
queen heron
I honestly find it funny how spiritual mage is as a game
its the best part
heady kestrel
I love seer/silver ladder team ups when shit really hits the fan
Silver ladder guy: “one nation…”
Seer: “under god”
Silver ladder: “we expect nothing less”
queen heron
Tell me about the Guardians
The guardians as a faction are wrapped up in (moreso 1e) spy symbolism, and (in both I think) being 'sinners'
mighty zephyr
The Guardians are indeed Catholic Guilt Ridden Super-Spys
queen heron
Magic should be something only for those who deserve it
The Guardians do not nessasarily consider themselves in that category lmao
heady kestrel
I think its really weird how… not-mad the seer stereotypes in the core book are at the pentacle
Like not bad weird
queen heron
in a just world, they wouldn't exist, and a large part of guardian mindset is kinda grappling with that
heady kestrel
But…. Interesting
queen heron
they murder
Guardians dirty themselves because they think it needs to happen
they are Hard Men Making Hard Choices, the faction
short quiver
in a just world, they wouldn't exist, and a large part of guardian mindset is ki...
Yeah, like I've said, I've had people play Guardians who believe the whole Mage Messiah prophecy the Guardians have is just a promise that some day there won't be a need for people like them or their work.
queen heron
they're the smallest by number of the Pentacle, but tend to run into the most new mages. This works fine for them: they only want the truly dedicated, and send the others to the Order they think fits.
they stick their nose in other wizards buisness more than most
heady kestrel
Like…. Look at these
They don’t even seem peeved in most of these. Feels like the shit they say trying to recruit you
queen heron
also, just because they do the Murder and are prepared to Murder, doesnt mean its always the first thing they do
a (platonic) Guardian will never kill you on someone elses orders
they will only kill you if they think you deserve it
short quiver
Yeah, because they're the ones keeping an eye on people to see if there's Supernatural nonsense about.
When it comes to Sleepers, the Ladder tries to give them gentle but functional on-ramps to Enlightenment, the Guardians try to deter anyone who seems like their snooping around Higher Truth, the Free Council figures that the Sleepers could manage fine on their own except for the work of some specific (and highly flammable) people.
queen heron
Like…. Look at these
They don’t even seem peeved in most of these. Feels like t...
they see a lot of other wizards as deluded or hypocrites
heady kestrel
I would at least expect them to be mad at the free council after the whole incident
But their sentiment is “damn you have so much potential”
short quiver
Like…. Look at these
They don’t even seem peeved in most of these. Feels like t...
Yeah, it's a pitch.
And also, part of their whole deal is "we aren't just the winning side, we've already won. If you could just accept that you'd be happier."
queen heron
Yeah, because they're the ones keeping an eye on people to see if there's Supern...
I think there is an element for the guardians of
its not anyone whos snooping for higher truth
they do have roads for the most dedicated seekers, the people who really want truth, to make it
the traps are for people who want material power, or to treat the occult as an elect
(... in theory)
short quiver
But their sentiment is “damn you have so much potential”
Yeah, I do feel like the Council and the Seers actually have a much more similar relationship to Magic/ the Supernal and how it relates to the world than either does with the Diamond.
queen heron
the guardians dont want no Mages, just more self-flagellating responsible ones
short quiver
Both of them more focused on the secret magic in the "mundane" world where the Diamond is bigger into the Truth as long-lost history or wisdom removed from the base world.
queen heron
its an interesting faction to throw into mages when
heady kestrel
Yeah, I do feel like the Council and the Seers actually have a much more similar...
The Seers tried to form a coalition with them before the Diamond did
But they got turned down, violently
Seers really red-brown allegiance posted in chat 💀💀💀💀💀
short quiver
The Seers tried to form a coalition with them before the Diamond did
But they g...
Yup!
The 120-year and counting insurgency against the gods of this world and their servants called "the Great Refusal."
queen heron
semi-related, one of my favorite things for Silver Ladder hubris
is how they're commited to respecting wizard rights
Seers suck yeah, but they're still citizens of the Awakened Nation
heady kestrel
Yeah
queen heron
you gotta give them basic due process
heady kestrel
Only people who are really excluded is like… Scelesti
short quiver
Like I said above, very funny to me that even the militant Diamond Orders (GoV, AA) treat the fights with the Seers at their most extreme like "to take a life, particularly an Awakened life, is to extinguish a spark of the divine, though there are times when no alternative is available, and we are committed to our duties"
& then the FC are just "so we have three rules, two of them are about the universal truth and human rights, and the third is that your job is to kill each and every one of these motherfuckers"
heady kestrel
And ya know, that’s because high joining Scelesti are barely people
Get em
I have plans for the Seers in my game
short quiver
(I even had my one Libertine do a Rick and Morty bit with the Arrow.)
("It's okay to kill them, they're zombies!" "No, they're not!" "Metaphorically! They're fascists, I don't respect them!")
queen heron
lmao
heady kestrel
What orders do you think would be willing to do a little transhumanism
Like going into wacky/freaky little legacies on purpose
clear delta
I mean, generally, yeah. "Worked" just means it's been crafted by human effort.
...
Oh, thought worked involved some stress or "harm" to the material
mighty zephyr
I mean all of them to an extent
It's just the difference between "Transhumanist" and "Lichdom"
queen heron
Oh, thought worked involved some stress or "harm" to the material
I took it as "force was applied" or tempered
not-fresh
queen heron
Like going into wacky/freaky little legacies on purpose
seconding all of them tbh
Mage, and the CofD as a whole, is gonna lean more humanist than transhumanist
but legacies are freaky
short quiver
Out of the five I think the Silver Ladder would be the most hesitant, with their "divinity of humanity" thing. Humanity's already perfect, or it will be when we get the limiters off.
clear delta
Mages As Monsters are colonizers.
Thought it was power and privilege in general
short quiver
The Free Council, IIRC, has the least taboos around Lichdom that isn't soul-snacking.
mighty zephyr
Thought it was power and privilege in general
I mean yeah but like Colonizer helps contextualize the specific power and privelage
They will show up to your home, dismiss your notions with "scientific/supernal" reasonable explaination, and then ruthlessly exploit it for their own ends until it breaks and they leave.
queen heron
from a personal horror bit its apparently pretty accurate to people who get pulled down occult rabbit holes, according to people from that area
getting lost in something you've found that 'truly matters', and doubling down as your life falls apart
short quiver
(man I should play more Cultist Simulator)
clear delta
Mages are helping fuck up los angeles
mighty zephyr
must immediately bounce out of the conversation when Mages are combined with LA or else I will begin vomiting tides of bile
short quiver
Just on the topic of Mage, I want to share how proud I am of my first Mage PC's Shadow Name.
He was a Mastigos who went by Wagner, because he's not in hell yet.
clear delta
Sorry
mighty zephyr
Oh Wax you're fine lmao
I'm joking
The shit mage game I was in was set in LA is all
fair jungle
Is this a jab at Cientology
short quiver
Not specifically, I don't think.
LRH was definitely a big name in terms of using pseudo-scientific claims around his cult structure, but it's not unique. You get a lot of new religious movements that claim to be scientific, or to be mixing scientific and spiritual understanding.
& even that goes back to 19th century spiritualism.
(Now, if you do want to read White Wolf taking a jab at Scilons there's the Banishers book)
mighty zephyr
A lot of modern cults are like that
hidden rock
And now I want to re-read the CofD chapter on cults. I think that was in Antagonists?
Cause man that thing was almost a playbook at times
clear delta
(Now, if you *do* want to read White Wolf taking a jab at Scilons there's the Ba...
Nameless and Accursed too
fair jungle
(Now, if you *do* want to read White Wolf taking a jab at Scilons there's the Ba...
Banishers book?Do tell
orchid void
Tell me about the Guardians
Once upon a time, some people noticed- Magic was getting Harder to Do. It unraveled more easily into Paradox. Thus starts the Guardians and their Veils. To keep Magic safe, it must be kept from the Unworthy. The Guardians admit that none are truly ever worthy, so they Police. They undermine. All souls are flawed, all Thrones are False. The GoV are spies by trade, working in lies and labyrinths to keep the unworthy Asleep and happy with faux-arcane drek. The worthy seek the Truth, and the Guardians harrow them. Test them. Mostly pass them onto the rest of the Pentacle. Few actually join the order. A spy has to be loyal to an idea, a mission. Few people can manage it. Fewer magi can, driven by Obsession as they are.
The Guardians are the Accepted Stranger, the Scapegoat, the Visus Draconis- the great eye that beholds the Awakened Nation and punishes the trespasses of the Wise.
You must hate them, because to be loathed means their role is being fulfilled. You hate them, you fear them, so you do not make mistakes.
Because then, you’ll see the men in masks and suits, just in the corners of your vision.
The Eye of the Dragon does not Blink
(The early Guardians barely avoided being labeled Banishers!)
versed zodiac
The vehme really don’t have shit on them
short quiver
Banishers book?Do tell
So, in Awakening, sometimes a Mage's Awakening (Enlightenment) just goes fundamentally wrong. To them, the Supernal isn't a vision of Truth crossing the divide to the Fallen World, it's an alien presence that warps the universe in accordance with the whims of power-mad wannabe gods playing with forces beyond their comprehension.
(Which, okay, they have some degree of a valid perspective there)
The Banishers book gives several examples of Banishers and Banisher organizations. One of them is the cult of Panography, who are... well, they're just Scientologists with the name changed for legal reasons. The "Acting Thetan" equivalents are actually Mages who think they're the only ones properly enlightened to use the powers at their disposal, and the other Mages are apostates and suppressive who threaten Panography.
So if you ever wanted to see legally-deniable-Tom Cruise statted out as an insane wizard, Banishers has that.
fair jungle
HAH
orchid void
LRH was definitely a big name in terms of using pseudo-scientific claims around ...
I need you to understand LRH did sex magic in the desert with the disciple of Alister Crowley to summon the antichrist
He was in DEEP on the occult, mostly to steal money from Jack Parsons
short quiver
Yeah but I don't think he ever thought it was going to work is the thing.
orchid void
And that’s why some Thelemites think LRH was a servant of the Black Lodge, whose ultimate spiritual goal was to destroy Communication
short quiver
I mean I could be wrong but I feel like he was just in it for the sex, drugs, and scamming.
orchid void
Oh he definitely was
short quiver
which, okay, i have to give some respect there
orchid void
But this does not change the level to which he engaged with the occult underground
And how he claimed to fight “devil worshippers” to his earlier, pre-Scientology/Dianetics groups
short quiver
And honestly "in it for the sex and scams" is a long and respectable component of occultist practice.
orchid void
I mean it’s why Crowley is History’s Worst Bottom
short quiver
And how he claimed to fight “devil worshippers” to his earlier, pre-Scientology/...
Hah, yeah. Didn't he claim at some point that he was doing it for the FBI?
versed zodiac
like many things that happen in secret, sex and money powers occultism too
Crowley is history's worst bottom
please elaborate
orchid void
Hah, yeah. Didn't he claim at some point that he was doing it for the FBI?
Probably claimed Naval Intelligence
short quiver
yeah, he was a dedicated Navy man
orchid void
>Crowley is history's worst bottom
please elaborate
He forced his first apprentice/assistant to take a shitload of psychoactives and fuck him in the deserts of Egypt
versed zodiac
Ah, this is no good
orchid void
Until said assistant had a mental breakdown
short quiver
like many things that happen in secret, sex and money powers occultism too
Reminds me of the real story of the Bavarian Illuminati
orchid void
And Crowley ditched him in Cairo
Never saw him again!
Disappears From The Historical Record
short quiver
That does sound like Crowley.
...although tbh it also sounds like something Crowley might say after his boyfriend dumped him.
orchid void
Yeah that’s the rub
Can’t be sure
I am going to 1v1 Crowley in hell
It’s On Sight (Astrally) with that shitty old cunt
short quiver
"Would Alister Crowley just invent a story about driving a dear friend and confidant to insanity as a bit" yes
But he might have done it too.
versed zodiac
You really can't be sure
orchid void
Wizards! Don’t Trust Them!
Professional liars
Don’t believe a lick of Blavatsky either
Woman was an old school pothead making shit up about Tibet to sound interesting
versed zodiac
Following the Paris Working, Neuburg began to distance himself from Crowley, resulting in an argument in which Crowley cursed him
clear delta
Fate blavatsky never became old, so she got an old woman suit
short quiver
orchid void
`Following the Paris Working, Neuburg began to distance himself from Crowley, re...
Hey what about the time James Joyce missile dropkicked Crowley down some stairs and threatened to sick a vampire on him
Anyway WoD
Your Wizards Should Be This Petty
versed zodiac
okay now that's just Mage behaviour
patent talon
Whenever I can run mage again I'd like to make a point of inter-Order, inter-Cabal bullshit and grievances. Seems like a very strong angle
queen heron
Your Wizards Should Be This Petty
Was it boston with that Mage whos pissed off everyone in her peer group enough that none of the Life mages would cure her cancer?
short quiver
Hey what about the time James Joyce missile dropkicked Crowley down some stairs ...
wait I thought that was Yeates
orchid void
wait I thought that was Yeates
It was, my b
versed zodiac
Wait what’s the oWoD dynamic pattern avatar overdose thing called
I know going too hard on stasis makes you a drone and going too hard on entropy makes you a lich or something
short quiver
It was, my b
All good, I've just had some debate over whether that qualifies as a wizard's duel.
Because all I'm saying is that someone had his will manifest in the physical world and someone got his head bashed against a flight of stairs
versed zodiac
Any time two wizards get in a fight it’s a wizard’s duel, the stupider the way they play that fight out the more wizardly it is
Wait I remember now
Dynamic overdose creates Marauders right
This guy is a Marauder for sure
versed zodiac
I like this because people dismiss it as insane babble or Chaos saying that his origins don't matter, but what he's actually saying is that things happen because they're headed towards a conclusion
And from his perspective, considering he literally knows everything from having had the source code of reality shoved into his skull, he's essentially correct: things exist because they are necessary to preordained conclusions
timber talon
```"Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" You know the question. But do you...
s the implication that a person really wanted to make an omelette
so they retroactively created the chicken and the egg
versed zodiac
essentially
it's a little more abstract than that
he doesn't specifically mean eggs and omelettes, but rather, that all things and events don't need to have consistent beginnings and ends, they just need to happen so that the intended conclusions are reached
timber talon
the mage created an omelette and the egg was broken to justify its existence
rare swallow
Oh yeah I guess I'm becoming Mage: the Awakening pilled after becoming Changeling: the Dreaming pilled
I'm sure some of the awakening people here will be proud
mighty zephyr
The egg exists because someone at some point needed the omlette
so all of the universe was writ so that the egg would come to fruition
versed zodiac
if that means that someone wants to eat an omelette, then the egg and the chicken become a consequence of that desire
timber talon
ah very nietzchean egg
mighty zephyr
And part of the funny thing is that like
he's right because the egg in Guilty Gear exists because Daisuke needed an omlette
if you wanna go that meta route
Things exists and happen because the author needs them for a Purpose
versed zodiac
I mean also he's right because the egg in GG exists because the collective hope of humanity needed an omelette
it doesn't need to get meta, he's directly talking about the fact that reality is at least somewhat subject to the hopes and dreams of the living because that's how the Backyard works
queen heron
I've used the Backyard as a touchstone for the Supernal when getting my other friends into Mage
patent talon
Hmm, so how would you apply that philosophy to Mage?
The fallen world came before the Exarchs and the Supernal?
patent talon
I've used the Backyard as a touchstone for the Supernal when getting my other fr...
Having looked at the wiki page it seems like a damn good fit
queen heron
I liked in Strives story mode where it just
has dictionary definitions and text floating by
not the worst visual for the Supernal
mighty zephyr
Hmm, so how would you apply that philosophy to Mage?
The Supernal is the code from which the Fallen World is programmed.
orchid void
The Supernal is the Fire that casts shade upon the Wall
The Wall is the Phenomenal, the Fallen
But the shadows cast back at the Supernal, if you listen to the arguements of Libertines
As Above, So Below
As Below, So Above
spice abyss
What's the Abyss in this example?
mighty zephyr
Vinny Vinesauce Corruption Streams
queen heron
What's the Abyss in this example?
I dont know if theres a direct 1-1
orchid void
remember to try and stay on topic
queen heron
Bedman works as a Scelestus though
orchid void
FROM HIT GAME GEAR: PIE?
just like, at least try and stay to wod stuff, in the wod thread/forum
that's all i'm askin
acoustic plaza
Ok
patent talon
The Supernal is the code from which the Fallen World is programmed.
Ah I getcha, I thought you meant the Egg Chicken and Omelette example more specifically
short quiver
As Above, So Below
As Below, So Above
And the Archmages know that the Fallen, or Phenominal, world does cast its shadows back on the Supernal
Venturing into the Supernal can effect the Phenominal back and forth through history, but the Supernal changes you want to see take Phenominal priming.
queen heron
Ah I getcha, I thought you meant the Egg Chicken and Omelette example more speci...
thats not too hard either
Humanity's purpose as 'what updates the Supernal'
and then you can tweak it based on how individualistic you want to be
Merlin wanted an Omelette, so he got his chickens in a row
patent talon
Makes sense!
short quiver
One of the details about the Archmages I like, incidentally.
There's one passage about how no know knows what the deal is with vampires, Supernally speaking, but no one has ever tried to do anything about them
& that's generally taken to mean "vampirism has some Supernal patronage that retroactively unexists anyone who tries to mess with it"
patent talon
I was reading about Happy Chaos having basically All Knowledge downloaded into his brain and now just kind of fucks around to provoke emotion. It got me thinking about Ochema or other Supernal emanations that aren't obviously controlled by the Exarchs or archmages. It'd undercut "Exarchs are the total rulers of the Supernal" thing, but I like the idea of sometimes Things just arrive or are unleashed that just cause chaos that are hard to fit into how Mages think the cosmos works
queen heron
Its a canon thing
hallow mirage
I see a world of darkness chat. Neat
queen heron
the Exarchs dont rule everything in the Supernal
orchid void
They just have Tyranny on lock
grave gulch
omg it delilah
orchid void
There's Ochema for any archmaster who bothers to make one
And then hurl it directly at the timeline for shits and giggles
patent talon
Makes sense, I was thinking of the "cast down the previous Supernal gods" but I guess that's 1) seer propaganda and 2) doesn't cover everything that could be there
short quiver
There is supposed to be some limit on how much an Archmage is supposed to do directly in the Fallen World
orchid void
Yeah its called Other Archmagi
patent talon
The Pax something something "don't lean too heavily on reality"
hallow mirage
Sooooo… anyone here like v5 WoD?
queen heron
There is supposed to be some limit on how much an Archmage is supposed to do dir...
they also need special yantras for their biggest spells
patent talon
One of the details about the Archmages I like, incidentally.
There's one passage...
Ascended Master: "You do not want to know what the vampires replaced, all you should know is they're a serious improvement"
queen heron
Sooooo… anyone here like v5 WoD?
its blood mechanics are at least interesting
patent talon
Prob one of my favourite bits in the Broken Diamond Actual Play is the end when the ||Space Ochema shows up and starts fucking up everything, but that one is pretty explicitly working for the Exarchs. But I'm imagining that but neither Pentacle or Pyramid can claim it as "one of theres".|| There's some fucking thing fucking with the world and even the Seers aren't getting back up from their gods
queen heron
Bound can be fun to slot into that
orchid void
Honestly ||Ochema of the Gate|| are like. Sincere issues for everyone
queen heron
cast out of heaven and gone 'wrong' in their time here
patent talon
Honestly ||Ochema of the Gate|| are like. Sincere issues for everyone
Oh god I hadn't even thought of that, how would that even work
patent talon
cast out of heaven and gone 'wrong' in their time here
That's a good angle. Are there any canon Nameless Orders that are involved with Bound? Could be a neat idea
orchid void
Oh god I hadn't even thought of that, how would that even work
I mean
The Gate is the Exarch of Space
It Divides
patent talon
Ohhh yeah, that's the legacy arcana
I was imagining a Abyss creature being directly piloted by a subsoul
Or a Ochema that just fucks with Paradox directly
patent talon
That's a good angle. Are there any canon Nameless Orders that are involved with ...
"The Ladder talks about the Oracles they've never seen, the Seers worship the symbols of tyranny, our god is right here in front of us, and demands so little!"
queen heron
The Tremere's Dragon is also something
possibly Supernal
and the others probably wouldnt claim it
clear delta
One of the details about the Archmages I like, incidentally.
There's one passage...
I headcanon the vampires are the result of cumulative imperial rites having small unexpected results. So now vampire clans just keep happening, and no one bothers messing with that tangle of magical laws
mighty zephyr
I feel like it’s version of werewolf is the best version
Indeed Apocalypse 5 is the best version of Apocalypse
clear delta
Maybe they spawned some weird blood god in Reality or Truth
With no purpose, but to manage vampires and similar spooks
No greater goal
queen heron
I just think bloods haunted
mighty zephyr
lmao
spice abyss
Vampires are a Truth
fair jungle
ok so 👏
Let see if I got this straight
In Wraith The Oblivion you have 2 'characters'
One is the ghost and another is the personification of everything bad and negative of the shghost
And another player in the table play the bad spook
Is that it?
rare swallow
Yeah
fair jungle
That's amazing
rare swallow
Though some tables just have the ST play all the shadows
fair jungle
Makes sense, because everyone I hear always say "Play only with people that you really trust"
Now SpeakerD saying "But the other players have to whip you every 5 seconds" makes sense
And lorewise, does the ghost society still exist in V5? Canonically it should not but hey you know
mighty zephyr
Has not come up once
fair jungle
True, at max a nudge here
https://vtm.paradoxwikis.com/Oblivion
And some of the effects are very ghost oriented
rare swallow
It requires a group of decent roleplayers and the use of good roleplay etiquette and tactics basically
Shadowguiding can be really fun if done right
fair jungle
I can imagine
But like you said "Good eiquette and tactic"
clear delta
Thus from this evolved geist, the ghost jojo/persona game
Where instead you have a ghost that lost its humanity abd turned into a mini death god with an alien mode of thought riding shotgun in your body
rare swallow
Geist sure is something
heady kestrel
Geist is on my list of games to get into
It seems fucking wild
One of the antagonists is trying to build a heaven that they can decide who gets to enter and exit
valid merlin
One of the antagonists is trying to build a heaven that they can decide who gets...
so just like regular heaven then
heady kestrel
Thinking about the Thrysus seer of the throne who seems to be having toxic Yuri or something with a literal city
Gentrifying my gf
heady kestrel
This is in mage the awakening 2e core
mighty zephyr
Thinking about the Thrysus seer of the throne who seems to be having toxic Yuri ...
@hybrid dock
heady kestrel
The city uses she/her pronouns
It is unclear if the seer is a girl in retrospect however
It read like a “this seer is a disaster homosexual” moment
clear delta
Exarch: what the fuck am I looking at
versed zodiac
ah, the expert has arrived
grave gulch
Questions
How likely it is for a camarilla higher up to have a regular wizard on their paycheck?
mighty zephyr
ITS JSUT A CRUSH VOY
versed zodiac
How likely it is for a camarilla higher up to have a regular wizard on their pay...
low, but never zero
grave gulch
Saying Camarilla guy cause they feel like the kind who would have connections like that 
mighty zephyr
How likely it is for a camarilla higher up to have a regular wizard on their pay...
Unknown at this point in 5th edition but probably not very likely in older lore
versed zodiac
However
mighty zephyr
Though funnily enough!
hybrid dock
I will never ask out the gestalt spirit of New York.
Eidbrand is too nervous for it
mighty zephyr
This was my character concept for my Mage I put into Asenscion
versed zodiac
the wizard might simply not know their anonymous patron who funds their research is a vampire
mighty zephyr
He was ousted from the Traditions for being too radical, and instead is under the patronage of a coterie of powerful Clan Hecata/Giovanni vampires
grave gulch
the wizard might simply not know their anonymous patron who funds their research...
true
mighty zephyr
Who give him funding and refuge to continue his experiments to destroy the gauntlet.
grave gulch
Also....the vamp might have their own agenda
That would be a reason to hire someone who's not even a vamp 
grave gulch
He was ousted from the Traditions for being too radical, and instead is under th...
That's neat
mighty zephyr
He only trusts food that comes in sealed packages and closed bottles
Since he doesn't wanna get blood bonded
grave gulch
vamp book says that wizards like using vitae for experiments
So they at least know they exist
Some vamps know i mean
versed zodiac
yeah but usually it's on the order of "let's go fuck up the local Camarilla because we can"
mighty zephyr
It's also probably going to wildly change with Mage 5
mighty zephyr
I don't think the Mage lore is going to survive intact in Mage 5
and I am pretty hoping for a W5 style reboot
grave gulch
I'm excited for it eitherway
I imagine that thr basic mage idea remains, as in the way magic works 
paradoxes and whatnot
mighty zephyr
Yeah definitely
And I imagine most of the bones will remain
I'd probably figure that the whole thing would become less "Eurocentric Wizards are responsible for every major historical event"
fair jungle
V5 has been very 'slow stakes and personal' kind of mentality so I wonder how they will reflect that in Mage
grave gulch
Should i bring spring heeled jack into the Vampire game if it ends up going into a campaing?
he's a wizard thief
mighty zephyr
V5 has been very 'slow stakes and personal' kind of mentality so I wonder how th...
I think they just do it like everything else
peel back the zany lore and start fresh with lower stakes and lower power levels
fair jungle
Can be good and have the potential to be the least confusing entry in mage
velvet sparrow
It probably will, but I'd also like to mention that Mage already did that before
fair jungle
when?
velvet sparrow
Revised edition
mighty zephyr
It's also gotta be made less racist which Revised only Kinda did
fair jungle
Can you elaborate on that, gov?
fair jungle
I mean, yeah, I am reading Demon The Fallen
but I like the specifics
honeslty I just love gossip so V:
like
Dead-on
I would 100% be a Nosferatu because I just want to die on the compute and hear gossip from people I don't even know
mighty zephyr
the main thing I saw in my reads was for one
"Only white people and I guess Chinese people have ever contributed to the larger Mage society" as an implication and more explicitly
the Order of Hermes threw all the brown people it didn't understand under the Umbrella Tradition of the Dreamspeakers
fair jungle
Why even write that in the book holyhell
mighty zephyr
Because that was the retcon to make sense of the authors doing the exact same thing
of shoving every animist religion into one group
basically making every African, Native American, and Japanese Mage have to figure shit out
because "we can't understand their language" said the wizards
fair jungle
That reminds me how Cain was described having dark skin because he worked under the sun all the time
And Abel very white skinned
and we all know what Cain did
Caine* >:V
clear delta
Wu keng had that thing with the footbinding Chinese mages and transphobia. Mage 20, at the least, said they're gone. But could've just retconed them out of existence. The ravnos from vampire were also just killed off instead of retconed, so I guess it's just the old procedure white wolf had.
fair jungle
what you mean?Ravnos are a thing in V5
But now they are 'wanderers that if they sleep in the same place for 7 days straight their blood curse will burn them from inside out like the sun, because the clan founder died by being burned by the sun'
mighty zephyr
the last bit
fair jungle
"What constitutes as the same place is defined by the chronicle, but generally will need a mile distance between the two resting places before the bane is triggered. Mobile havens do work as long as the haven is moved a mile away. "
velvet sparrow
I don't think they were ever completely killed off, were they?
fair jungle
Pain
fair jungle
I don't think they were ever completely killed off, were they?
"They were almost annihilated during the beginning act of the Gehenna War during the Week of Nightmares but with time is now growing stronger once more"[2]
clear delta
I don't think they were ever completely killed off, were they?
Oh, true
fair jungle
[2]Vampire: The Masquerade Corebook, page 395
The Nosferatu network got canonically destroyed because of the 2 Inquisition 😦
Gone all the Nosfetaru Streamers
Now forced to become vtubers
mighty zephyr
The Ravnos were completely killed off previously
fair jungle
Surprises me it was not the Salubri
crystal fern
The Ravnos were completely killed off previously
the reference I saw was that they were reduced to maybe like, 100 of them left
fair jungle
Banu Haqim now shares Blood Magic with the Tremere
clear delta
The dreamspeakers are so weird. You're looking at traditions, see some that feel very specific, then see one that's just a bunch of distinct groups shoved together
mighty zephyr
And it sucks because they're the Spirit Tradition
So it just feels WEIRD if you wanna engage with Spirit
fair jungle
just play werewolf instead
clear delta
Celestial choir, in spite of being some mix of religions, Christian focused
mighty zephyr
Celelestial Choir in spite of being a mix of EVERY religion
Also Do, despite being the ur-martial art that EVERY martial art descends from
is just Kung Fu
clear delta
Had an idea of someone who did meditation with paintings as akashic mage. Actually started as a virtual adept tgat did art as programming.
No idea what she'd do with Do. Create a personal style to paint faster and anywhere?
fair jungle
ye
clear delta
The verbena are basically wicca I think?
mighty zephyr
Yeah the Verbena are general Feminist Pagans/Druids
clear delta
Instead of being every nature religion smushed together
And at least in M20, they are of the opinion technology makes you weak
mighty zephyr
and then you do a backflip and tell them to enjoy their polio
clear delta
Really hate this pseudo darwinist rethoric. "Nature would eat weak people like you" or whatever
fair jungle
Yeah is stupid
That means that, any tool they make should be destroyed by their logic
Since "Technology bad" So strip naked >:V
barren vortex
its a very 90s pop surface understanding of nature
fair jungle
sadly
mighty zephyr
Yeah idk that's the main thing about Mage
that's gonna need retooling
how the fuck do you make players choose between Cryptofascists and Conservative Racist Luddites
versed zodiac
that's fine, the V5 books already are nearly soft reboots
mighty zephyr
It's why I think M5 will be a complete reboot like W5 is
fair jungle
It's a reboot -like-thing for sure
Red Talons aren't all cis-woman-only man-hating psudo-amazons anymore for example
clear delta
Yeah is stupid
That means that, any tool they make should be destroyed by their ...
Guess it depends on an arbitrary limit for technology level for them
versed zodiac
Aren’t all werewolves ecoterrorists
grave gulch
mighty zephyr
Red Talons are SUPER eco-terrorists
barren vortex
It's why I think M5 will be a complete reboot like W5 is
my brain autocompletes those to Mage 5 and Wizard 5 even though i know werewolf
fair jungle
Black Furies
that! Thanks
fair jungle
Aren’t all werewolves ecoterrorists
Glass Walkers say "Kinda, not all the time"
velvet sparrow
Really hate this pseudo darwinist rethoric. "Nature would eat weak people like y...
What even is "Nature"?
Is "Nature" just anything humans haven't touched?
Is paper natural?
Wasps make paper, does that make wasps unnatural too?
fair jungle
Is "Nature" just anything humans haven't touched?
Tl;dr; yes
grave gulch
What's the downside of not having a tribe besides lacking the protection of your peers in werewolf?
mighty zephyr
they're called Ronin for some reason and they are ostracized and scorned
velvet sparrow
Dunno in W5, but I know in earlier editions you couldn't learn new Gifts, and every spirit hated you
grave gulch
Dunno in W5, but I know in earlier editions you couldn't learn new Gifts, and ev...
Is that still a thing?
grave gulch
they're called Ronin for some reason and they are ostracized and scorned
that's pretty sad
fair jungle
Kinda? Not really? We have the 'lone vagabond' tribe
https://wta.paradoxwikis.com/Galestalkers one of the archetypes is drifter:
"The Drifter calls no place home, roaming from one place to another. They've had a hard life since their First Change and circumstances work against them whenever the truth about who they are comes out, changing their direction, which is usually directed by a blood trail. But as the Drifter and pack knows, they aren't just chasing blood, they are hunting something"
mighty zephyr
Galestalkers are a member of the tribe and aren't the lone vagabond
if anything that's the Silent Striders
fair jungle
https://wta.paradoxwikis.com/Silent_Striders yeah I can see it
But they are messagers not drifters, that's why I said Galestalkers
mighty zephyr
No they're drifters
mighty zephyr
Because in W5 not every Garou is a completely anti-mechanical luddite
and most of them still engage in society
fair jungle
If a werewolf gets shot do you bring them to the doctor or to the vet?
mmmmh
fair jungle
oh yeah good point
clear delta
Cool angel design in splintered city seattle.
A mini sun, witg glowing articulated cables hanging beneath
@sudden shoal
fair jungle
show plz
sudden shoal
I like how people have told me W5 is bad for being closer to Forsaken and I'm sat here like "good"
sudden shoal
I was super cautious of W5 when people were talking about its development but it looks solid ngl
Sadly I have Zero ideas for it right now but hey
fair jungle
I think people are butthurt they changed the lore so they nitpicked W5 to hell and back
I like what i read baout W5
sudden shoal
I mean yeah
When it was being developed I heard a lot of vague Stuff about the process that made me fairly sure I was gonna be a bad time and then it actually launched and it seems solid
It's not like old lore is even really incompatible except where it kinda never made sense to me anyway?
The Nation was never logically all-powerful everywhere for instance. It probably exists in places. Old Tribes still exist, it was always suggested they were a dynamic thing in many ways. The cultural bleaching is a bit sad but I get why it happened at least.
The Willpower thing in Cronos makes sense even if its a bit overtuned.
fair jungle
oh yeah some are, like
"You broke a thingy
1 willpower for you, gg"
sudden shoal
TBH I felt kinda the same about V5, though I much more lament the way a lot of clans got smooshed together and their signature disciplines written out. he restructuring of the political affiliations makes sense overall and it's not like antitribu don't happen so ehhh.
That lore to me is a lot... messier
fair jungle
I think that way they made Antitribu something more... "Official"? Something more player-able if that makes sense
Because most tables that I saw are very Cammy-oriented by default
sudden shoal
I don't hate it. If I'm desperate for the old feel I own V20 downstairs.
fair jungle
In the dungeon
sudden shoal
Sabbat games can be cool but I find most Sabbat enthusiast players are... well, it makes sense they'd pick Sabbat let's say.
I wish
It'd be fucking cool to have like a dungeon basement to play in
versed zodiac
anywhere can be a dungeon if you're committed enough to the bit
sudden shoal
Anarch games? Yeah I'm in
Seems natural the Movement would gain power in the modern nights
fair jungle
Yeah some Sabbat oriented plays smells a lot like "I want to be an awful person in-game without any repercussion"
sudden shoal
Again, Requiem also saw this.
sudden shoal
Yeah some Sabbat oriented plays smells a lot like "I want to be an awful person ...
That is precisely what every Sabbat player I've had in a game acted like frankly
versed zodiac
Sabbat could be fun if you really focused on the whole "shovelhead recruit lost in the sauce trying to live their unlife locked into the war" thing instead of heehee hoho cargames
sudden shoal
Both in and out of character for most
You can play Vampire as a power fantasy but I don't know why you kinda... would?
idk
clear delta
show plz
The angel in the story
The girl sat alone in a still apartment. [Apartment that just exists and isn't really used. Copies of the same book in a case. Dust]
Her weekday routine followedv She went to school like a proper fourteenzyear-old, passed through the day's classrs unnoticed, and returned here, to wait.
Every day, she waited, staring into space, her eues seeing more than an observer would ever guess.
[...]
||Sitting in a classroom and staring off into space, never called on through some minor piece of magic that any other kid in the room would kill for, the girl stood up in a swift movement that clattered her chair to the floor. Everyone looked. The teacher was about to say something when the girl exploded, incinerating everything in the room.
In the center of the shockwave hung a glowing ball of fire, a tiny sun glowing fiercely, with a spread of glowing, articulated cables hanging down beneatg. Then it soared through the wall it had just opened to the outside, cables streaming behind it as it flew across the city.
||
heady kestrel
I get it actually. Though vampire isn’t necessarily what I would go for
Villan games are really fun to me, love to just be a awful little guy, a slimey little bastard
fair jungle
You can play Vampire as a power fantasy but I don't know why you kinda... would?
Have you seen the gundam meme of the guy missing the point of gundam(Show)?
That, but with VTM
sudden shoal
Have you seen the gundam meme of the guy missing the point of gundam(Show)?
That...
I don't wanna say you're playing the game wrong. Nothing wrong with enjoying yourself.
I don't think Sabbat is exactly meant to feel good though
fair jungle
At least is not someone saying "THEY PUT POLITICS IN WEREWOLF 5 >:(((((("
clear delta
The angel in the story
>>> The girl sat alone in a still apartment. [Apartment t...
Two other angels quit because ||they were just built to be bait so mini sun could catch demons||
heady kestrel
I don't think Sabbat is exactly *meant* to feel good though
People need to learn the catharsis of playing a fucked up guy and getting called on it, that shit goes hard
Love it when I am executed or insulted for my sins
sudden shoal
People need to learn the catharsis of playing a fucked up guy and getting called...
Basically
fair jungle
People need to learn the catharsis of playing a fucked up guy and getting called...
Found the Wraith: The Oblivion player /j
sudden shoal
But it is, like, a game. If a group wants to be katana-wielding badasses I don't explicitly have an issue. Does seem like missing the forest for the trees though.
It's not what I wanna run but if everyone's on the same page, go for it.
Feeling cool and awesome is cool and awesome.
It's not like I play Werewolf to be miserable I do it cause werewolves are cool
heady kestrel
Oh is that why people play Sabbat
I thought they were doing it to be fucked up grungly monsters
sudden shoal
Oh is *that* why people play Sabbat
I thought they were doing it to be fucked u...
This Is The Way
I still wanna do Wraith ngl
I had an idea for a Silent Legion plot but fucking hell that's not an easy thing to pull off
Less risky to dance naked in a room full of piano wire
I also do actually wanna get a copy of Charnel Houses and drink it in, but I'm never playing that, holy shit
heady kestrel
Like if I was playing Sabbat I don’t want to be cool, I want to be covered in blood and mud, I want to monologue about how much… I don’t really know what sabbat monologue about? Whatever juice they are ok
I’m here to play a Bad Person
sudden shoal
If I wanna do that I can live my own life tbf
heady kestrel
Nooooooo don’t insult yourself
sudden shoal
I can't even turn into a wolf what the fuck man
mighty zephyr
The best reason to play a Sabbat game is to kill Antidiluvians
mighty zephyr
they didn't
sudden shoal
Wait what
mighty zephyr
They didn't do that
sudden shoal
I thought V5 said they all fucked off
sudden shoal
Oh god
mighty zephyr
They just aren't Romani anymore
versed zodiac
and their clan curse sucks super bad
sudden shoal
How did I miss that
lmfao
I have the worst memory known to man I swear
That and I haven't kept up really.
velvet sparrow
and their clan curse sucks super bad
Sucks as in "barely relevant" or "oh god I'm supposed to play the game with that?"
versed zodiac
Yes!
It's extremely situational - if you stay in the same general area for a month, you explode.
However, most VtM situations necessitate sticking around
sudden shoal
I'm kinda sad Malkavians are kinda bland now but I guess they were worried about fish players
mighty zephyr
How are they bland
versed zodiac
In case you thought I wasn't being serious, after staying in the same place for a month, you count as permanently being exposed to sunlight while you remain
sudden shoal
In case you thought I wasn't being serious, after staying in the same place for ...
Wow
velvet sparrow
I am genuniely unsure if that's worse than the Brujah weakness tbh
versed zodiac
So like I said: you explode.
valid merlin
just gotta sleep in your car I guess
versed zodiac
I genuinely thought you had the low orbit ion cannon slowly locking onto you as a Ravnos
I have no idea where I got that from
heady kestrel
That is hilarious
queen heron
it happened in the uhhhh
big ending event
for WoD
I think Rav was the one the technocracy shot with a space laser
versed zodiac
I know Ravnos himself got lasered
sudden shoal
How are they bland
I appreciate they leaned more into "vampire seer" and "Dementation" is a shitty power that was never well executed but in a weird way I always felt very seen by the clan as it was. It's not like, an overall bad change. I sort of wish the idea wasn't stripped out as much, I guess?
I forget if antitribu are different but as I recall antitribu are largely identical in 5. I may well be wrong,
I was wrong about Ravnos after all
Cause memory
mighty zephyr
I mean I think the Malks are now a bit more reasonable takes on mental illness than they used to be
sudden shoal
That bane reminds me of 1st ed Promethean though, in a negative way overall
heady kestrel
Is dementation like “madness power” or “memory erase power” or something
sudden shoal
Kinda?
valid merlin
it's kinda both IIRC?
mighty zephyr
I'd really rather a Malk be uncomfortably close to BPD than having them in canon go like "Unicorn poop and fishing scoops hahahahahahahahahAH Jokerrrrrrrre"
sudden shoal
IIRC lorewise it was Dominate that went a bit funny in the generational trauma microwave
versed zodiac
dementation was the Malkavian Discipline of making people go cuhrazy and also Just Knowing Stuff
tbh I think a lot of the unique disciplines suffered from being really laser guided tier specific and also from being locked to just one clan
mighty zephyr
Yeah
I agree with that
Which is why I think Flesh-Crafting still only being a Tzimece thing is silly
versed zodiac
that bothers me
sudden shoal
The depiction was always a bit simplistic and players were not necessarily great at seeing between the lines even by V20 on it. Writers themselves not being the most sensitive (even for the 90s tbh) didn't help
versed zodiac
especially now that Koldunic sorcery is someone any blood sorcerer can learn
sudden shoal
The less Malk players there are being Suicide Squad Harley Quinn the better imo
versed zodiac
just let people learn fleshcrafting if they wanna, say something like "oh well Zulo is a Tzimisce specific tradition but anyone can cook if they wanna"
sudden shoal
Still, as someone who's literally psychotic, it was nice to see the good bits of Malkavian lore, even if it was constantly being rewritten
Moreso now that diagnosis seems to be BPD actually. Coincidence. Whatever.
mighty zephyr
Oh wait
grave gulch
BTW
sudden shoal
Hyperspecificity of Disciplines didn't bother me so much either
mighty zephyr
Anyone can learn Vissicitude
grave gulch
vampires dont need their organs...but i imagine they still need their bones right?
mighty zephyr
It's an Amalgam of Dominate and Protean lmao
versed zodiac
I mean the power description is like "you might have to learn this from a Tzimisce"
sudden shoal
vampires dont need their organs...but i imagine they still need their bones righ...
In what specific lore
grave gulch
V5
versed zodiac
but otherwise yeah it's not LITERALLY clan-locked
grave gulch
like i shatter your vamp spine, can you stand up?
versed zodiac
no but vampires can shake a broken bone off at a speed that will shock you
sudden shoal
There's a Bloodline in Requiem 1e that can shape its bones as weapons including one tier that lets you shoot them out like darts
sudden shoal
like <:vicksySip:996566522828968088> i shatter your vamp spine, can you stand u...
With difficulty, yes
grave gulch
so they sort of need it still
versed zodiac
if they have Vicissitude shit's different though
sudden shoal
They're dead people reanimated by magic. Like a stuffed dummy, shooting it in the heart isn't gonna stop it, but smashing all its supports is gonna make it hard to stand up.
versed zodiac
they may actually go "nice try asshole" and get back up broken spine be damned
same with Fortitude but more along the lines of them just going NANOMACHINES FORTITUDE SON
sudden shoal
They also don't especially feel pain. Not none but its different. Specifics count in whichever book you want.
mighty zephyr
I mean the power description is like "you might have to learn this from a Tzimis...
It's just that it's "Rare outside Tzimece"
versed zodiac
true and player characters are the exception, not the rule
heady kestrel
Using my vampire super strength to support myself through muscle alone
grave gulch
that's some scary shit
mighty zephyr
That's what Dio did
sudden shoal
In Requiem I think pain is a learned thing unless it affects The Beast. If you never felt pain before it's hard to experience. Sunlight and fire are exceptions cause they're instinctual fears.
versed zodiac
Fortitude is one of the scarier vampire abilities because a Fort vampire just
stops giving a fuck about half the shit that should stop a normal vampire
grave gulch
sudden shoal
Low Humanity? You probably don't care about pain much.
versed zodiac
they do that Vanilla Ice shit where you punch them full of holes and they go "ok and" and murder you anyways
heady kestrel
stops giving a fuck about half the shit that should stop a normal vampire
That is why we always keep a sawed off shotgun loaded with silver, for special occasions
(Would that even work?)
versed zodiac
I thought silver was anti-lupine
grave gulch
what's the most efficient way of putting a vampire down? stakes sound super risky
heady kestrel
It probably is but I swore it did something for the vampires
versed zodiac
<:vicksyThink:996566524225663086> what's the most efficient way of putting a va...
It's still stakes, chief
mighty zephyr
Pain isn't a learned thing
it's a forgotten thing
that's the difference
you forget pain after a while
and you forget to pretend to breathe
heady kestrel
What about… for an anti vampire weapon
Massive wooden stakes attached to missiles
versed zodiac
lopping a vampire's head off is also an instant kill but it is damned hard
grave gulch
i know that the 2nd inquisition has some really good ways of taking vamps out, but that's not something everyone has access to
versed zodiac
What about… for an anti vampire weapon
Massive wooden stakes attached to missil...
the Five Torches say hello
they prefer the underslung stake launcher though
grave gulch
like they have some sort of gas that doesnt hurt humans im pretty sure(i remember reading about it in the book)
versed zodiac
it is made of hate and smells like oof ow ouchies my vitae
heady kestrel
I remember a really fun idea from @clever pagoda one time where a incredibly well funded scientific vampire hunting thing were attempting to make an artificial light source capable of hurting vampires
Which is obviously incredibly hard. But not impossible
mighty zephyr
Foks the gas is a gameplay contrivance for a battle royale I wouldn't take it as super-canon
mighty zephyr
It's fucking what
versed zodiac
Red Stuff is canon
mighty zephyr
What the fuck
versed zodiac
it's the Second Inquisition's last and most expensive trump card
grave gulch
i imagine that's what they used in viena
versed zodiac
like the book is extremely clear that deploying Red Stuff isn't something they can do all the time or basically ever, it's the final and most fucked up line of vampire killing equipment and something that goes even above True Faith relics in terms of acquisition difficulty
heady kestrel
Damn
grave gulch
i was going to ask about true faith as well
versed zodiac
No one knows what it is or where it comes from except Papal Entity inner circle agents, and it has some sinister elements to it like apparently whispering to vampires???
The Red Stuff is some spooky shit.
heady kestrel
Probably like… the wretched left hand of god or something
sudden shoal
I liked that game ngl
grave gulch
i heard that people enjoyed it
sudden shoal
I thought it was stupid as hell until I played it a bit
They were actually making lore and stuff
It was cool
mighty zephyr
The Eucharist is true and that wine can literally be turned into the blood of christ just only the Pope knows how to make it
sudden shoal
The vibe of that city was awesome
It's still up but I believe it's in maintenance mode
versed zodiac
yeah who knows, maybe it's the Omega Eucharist, maybe it's liquid vampires, maybe it's a secret worse thing
heady kestrel
I wonder if there in WoD would be like… anti-popes
grave gulch
liquid vampires 
versed zodiac
do you mean Noddists
grave gulch
the gas is alive 
and it wants to consuuuuuuuuume
sudden shoal
The Red Stuff makes me think of the substance in Witch Hunter Robin which, spoilers, is basically ||liquid witch pain||
mighty zephyr
There's the Church of Caine yeah
heady kestrel
Nono I mean like… in the hidden worlds
versed zodiac
because if you mean Noddists, chuckles, I have one... right here.
heady kestrel
Guys who claim to be the pope but aren’t recognized by the Vatican
The offical term being anti-pope
versed zodiac
oh, maybe? the Vatican is part of the secret world, though, they collect artifacts and assassinate vampires
heady kestrel
Yeah exactly
sudden shoal
The offical term being anti-pope
Catholicism is wild as someone who isn't Catholic ngl
versed zodiac
so there might be an Antipope out there
sudden shoal
There have been multiple Anti-Popes including the Pope War
versed zodiac
what we do know is that the Russian Orthodox Church has insane amounts of vampire beef
like more than the other churches
grave gulch
uhh bullets arent the most efficient but....shooting a vampire until it is dead works right?
versed zodiac
they are fucking slayerpilled
mighty zephyr
If they make the Papacy under the Technocracy or some shit in M5 I'm gonna be so pissed
versed zodiac
based on the lore, I rather suspect that the Papacy and the Technocracy have an uneasy alliance
seeing as X-tech exists but the Papacy isn't really about it
versed zodiac
<:vicksySip:996566522828968088> uhh bullets arent the most efficient but....sho...
ehhhhhhhh not really
not without decapitating the vampire through sheer volume of fire
gunning a vampire down can work but you won't permakill it, just riddle it with bullets until it goes torpid
inconvenient for the vampire, obviously, but even more inconvenient for someone who springs that torpor landmine if you forget to dispose of the body
versed zodiac
Shoot them full of holes, stake them, incinerate or sunbathe
mighty zephyr
Blow up the building
grave gulch
right, shoot em until turpor
mighty zephyr
It's average hunter tactics but done by trained specops soldiers
grave gulch
oh they hate fire forgot bout that
versed zodiac
An act of the faith (explosive weapons) is also permissable in a larger conflict
thermobarics/incendiaries recommended
heady kestrel
Oh I forgot to post this here
Mystery play awakenings in mage the awakening are like really bizarre greentexts
be me
realize I’m Bi
decide on a whim to go to a different pub than usual
Have a one night stand with a man, he leaves me a love poem and vanishes in the middle of the night
Can’t stop thinking about him , follow the riddles and clues left in the love poem to find him
Fucker doesn’t remember me
wait he doesn’t remember anything
Look in his coat, full of love poems
go on a quest with him to decipher the ARG left behind in these love poems
enter a wood full of strange rocks
he sits on a rock and gets his memories back
omg my boyfriend is a fairy prince!!!!(wait boyfriend??? I guess that’s true)
realize he is me
realize he is me
Awaken
(This is a Acanthus awakening in the book)
versed zodiac
I love/hate that it's just canon that South America has active vampire-2I warzones
where shit's just getting insane
Sabbat and Camarilla working hand in hand because holy fuck these BOES guys are crazy
sudden shoal
I haven't checked is M5 confirmed
I want it, bad
I never got Mage until really, really recently
versed zodiac
everyone just kinda assumes it's happening considering V5 and W5 happened and Mage is the third of the three tentpole WoD games
sudden shoal
It'd be weird yeah
queen heron
I wonder if there in WoD would be like… anti-popes
our world had antipopes lol
sudden shoal
Hunter 5 exists after all, though admittedly that feels like a more natural tentpole than mage for a modern audience
mighty zephyr
I think Mage would have really suffered
queen heron
(its the term used whenever multiple people contested the papacy)
mighty zephyr
if it came out instead of Hunter
versed zodiac
I'm glad WoD5 has had some time in the oven
mighty zephyr
I think they should just rip the bandaid off and full reboot Mage
sudden shoal
Hm
versed zodiac
V5 post errata and with the extra books is like, pretty good
heady kestrel
our world had antipopes lol
I know but like, with true faith and the funny little blessings
sudden shoal
Not sure how I feel about a full Mage reboot
Like, we have that, it's Chronicles Mage, and its cool but I admit it's not as cool
mighty zephyr
It needs it
versed zodiac
everyone says W5 is a great take on WtA so I remain positive about M5 as a possibility
mighty zephyr
Like I've raid Revised and 20
grave gulch
good thing about Hunter is that they could also recycle some stuff from the Vampire lore, manly the organizations that exist within the world
sudden shoal
Hunter 5 exists
versed zodiac
Voy would you consider W5 a reboot of WtA
mighty zephyr
Yes 100%
versed zodiac
okay if that's what you mean I agree with you 150%
sudden shoal
They did the correct thing: make Imbued a single part of it that most Hunters are not
versed zodiac
that is what M5 needs to be
mighty zephyr
It explicitly tells me to ignore all previous lore that does not come up
grave gulch
i want to be wizard
versed zodiac
also, like
please ffs please make the technocracy something more manageable as a plot element
sudden shoal
i want to be wizard
Welcome to the Hermetic Order, friend
versed zodiac
i want to be wizard
storytellerpilled
mighty zephyr
I'd be cool if the entire Mage conflict became about fucking over Archmasters
I think that'd be the best thing actually
sudden shoal
Technocracy are cool but they enforce a pretty specific story
versed zodiac
see I don't need you to tell me that because you think Mage is dope, so I already know
sudden shoal
I already said I wanna run Wraith
Like.
Yeah
Can I? Probably not, I'll never get a group that won't fall apart instantly.
rare swallow
I still wanna do Wraith ngl
I 100% recommend :p
versed zodiac
this is why Mage gets disproportionately more chatter compared to other games, it's a game for storytellers and yappers (affectionate)
rare swallow
Can I? Probably not, I'll never get a group that won't fall apart instantly.
You never know, I joined a random group from the WoD discord and it's actually been really fun and healthy
We're reaching the end of the game even
sudden shoal
You never know, I joined a random group from the WoD discord and it's actually b...
Treasure this
Over half the games I've been in either side of the table have died, easy
heady kestrel
The only games I have read(I have also played V20 but not really read it)
Are
Mage the awakening (1e, working on2e)
Changeling the lost
Demon the descent
sudden shoal
Changeling is coincidentally one of the few campaigns I've been in that ended.
Like, the story came to a conclusion
heady kestrel
Lost or dreaming?
sudden shoal
Lost
heady kestrel
Alright just checking
grave gulch
Welcome to the Hermetic Order, friend
yey
rare swallow
The games I've read fully have been
VtM20, WtO20, CtD20
sudden shoal
Dreaming is definitely more difficult because it draws on a specific experience I'm not sure most can relate to very easily
grave gulch
after mage maybe we wont get any other game...but i was hoping for demon
rare swallow
I guess? I found dreaming to be really easy to relate to
sudden shoal
CtD's horror is more akin to the experience of delusion and hallucination, CtL is more akin to the experience of trauma and abuse cycles
To very simplify
rare swallow
Most people I play with are hyper creative art nerds tho
sudden shoal
CtD was described to me as "Maladaptive Daydreaming the RPG" once and it's not... inaccurate I guess
rare swallow
Eeeh? The thing is CtD isn't really much of a horror setting, it's way more cranked towards the Urban Fantasy side of WoD than the Personal Horror side of it
Principally in 20th
sudden shoal
Sure
I prefer horror as a theme tho for sure so there's that
CtL also is steeped in fantasy and the wonder of dreams
They're good contrasts to each other, the light parts and the less light parts
mighty zephyr
CtL is also about the dangers of escapism as a form of running from trauma I think
sudden shoal
Also that
rare swallow
I'm personally glad there's a more urban fantasy light hearted splat, but like I understand most people like wod purely for the noire personal horror which I do also really like
sudden shoal
I think Chronicles Mage for instance excels in the fact that there's a massive, innate horror at the fact you are aware of living in a fallen world
You can just kinda, ignore that tho
If you want
mighty zephyr
I mean the problem for me is that I think like
rare swallow
I'm currently reading awakening and really quite liking it
mighty zephyr
the LIght Hearted Urban Fantasy stuff gets put ON TOP of the Horror
sudden shoal
It's YOUR World of Darkness, friends, do what you like with the material.
mighty zephyr
Like Mage's big problem is the idea of their power scaling and Know-How being used as a means to put down other splats
when their own splat lacks the intense horror vibe and is all wacky yahoo pizza time
sudden shoal
Every WoD game has a power scale issue in previous editions as well tbf
mighty zephyr
It's like if the Uncle Grandpa episode of Steven Universe was canon
rare swallow
Idk like it's obvious the creators of C20 wanted it to be apart from 1/2e. It's also way less dependent on other splats tbh? I'm currently finding it really easy to just completely ignore the rest of WoD for the game I'm working on
mighty zephyr
I can make less definitive statements about Changeling
sudden shoal
Anyway the real M5 is Mummy 5th
mighty zephyr
I've never really had a chance or reason to read it
rare swallow
I'd recommend reading C20, it's good
sudden shoal
ChroD Mummy is cool as shit! Nobody has ever bought or played it.
queen heron
imo, splat balance doesn't actually matter between the books as long as the inner gameloop is tight
sudden shoal
If you say you have you're lying
queen heron
I..... read it once
I made at least two characters!
all rpg players know thats basically playing right
sudden shoal
Correct
It's the Storyteller system! You're supposed to write your own stories in it! In your head! Where nobody else gets to interact with them ever!
mighty zephyr
I was GONNA play it
sudden shoal
I still think Promethean and Mummy in ChroD are very valuable but reading the 1e Promethean made it obvious it was nigh-unplayable RAW and I haven't even bothered looking at the new one. Mummy seems extremely tailored and that's fine but it means only a few people will ever really be into it.
heady kestrel
Like Mage's big problem is the idea of their power scaling and Know-How being us...
Imo that is more a mage fan problem than a mage problem
sudden shoal
The inverse power scale thing is cool but its The Jedi Problem where everyone's a Mummy or nobody is except someone.. has to be?
queen heron
Imo that is more a mage fan problem than a mage problem
its why you gotta think about themes and purpose always with these games
fair jungle
Wait what
https://vtm.paradoxwikis.com/Ravnos I JUST posted this >:V
heady kestrel
Mage The Awakening has big Dystopian YA energy(positive)
queen heron
Its a great game for being On Some Bullshit (complimentary) 😌
heady kestrel
Even the fucking seers are smoking so hard
Like I posted about the Thrysus seer who appears to be dating the city they are gentrifying
queen heron
harder to run challenging threats though
fair jungle
Play Wraith the Oblivion to gaslight your friends! (don't)
queen heron
if I wanted to do that I'd just gm Lost
clear delta
Fun demon the descent idea. Try to break the border between a timeline splinter and the hedge
sudden shoal
As an aside I like that Bart Curlish in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency is basically a Chakravanti Mage who doesn't exactly realise it yet
fair jungle
if I wanted to do that I'd just gm Lost
You already failed on step 1
Find a group to GM Lost to /j
sudden shoal
I'd play Lost again tbh
fair jungle
But does your timezone align with Scout's?
sudden shoal
I am in the UK
queen heron
my timezone doesnt even align me mine rn
queen heron
I could not start gming another game
fair jungle
sorry about that
clear delta
Hmm. Where would you rather set up a base?
Timeline splinter, hedge, somewhere in space, shadow, underworld.
Aparrently, demons can rip their way into a nightmare labyrinth, so they perhaps could find their way into the astral realms
heady kestrel
Timeline splinter is almost definitely the best
sudden shoal
Not really gonna go settle somewhere about to get torn asunder by magical maelstroms
Shadow is way too mutable.
clear delta
It's cofd underworld
heady kestrel
Yeah even the god machine has given up on trying to set up down there
clear delta
It's stable on the upper levels.
heady kestrel
The god machine gave up
sudden shoal
gonna go build a house in the duat brb
clear delta
I'm built different
heady kestrel
Everyone be like “wow I can’t wait to build my demon realm in the underworld/hedge, a realm safe from the god machine” and then you realize why
sudden shoal
The hedge is genuinely quite stable and even nice if you find the right spot. It's not like it's massively more risky than anywhere else for being abducted by the fae.
sudden shoal
You don't get goblin markets in hell
heady kestrel
Hard part is that Wyrd overrules occult physics when the two conflict
sudden shoal
The fae prove basic security principles anyway: if someone wants it, they can always get it, you can only make it more difficult for them to the point they are caught or give up. If you set up somewhere stable in the hedge the fae aren't interested in and you aren't a good target they largely won't bother. The risks of the hedge from there are the residents, and that's basically like living next to any neck of woods at that point.
(At least that's how I describe the true fae - "you can never truly stop them" like that's the whole paranoia of being a Changeling innit)
Practice Safe Secs, everyone
clear delta
What
sudden shoal
Sec = security
It's a funny pun security ppl I know use
To address space tho: yeah space is cool and almost nobody is there but supply chains are an issue and if you fuck up you're now in The Void
timeline splinter is probably the best if you can manage it tbh but vibes? hedge
and once again goblin markets fucking rule
Those missing Doctor Who episodes? They got them, and at the price of just your first childhood memory! Bargain!
Actually if you're powerful enough that's more reason to live in the old world underworld, all sorts of weird shit is down there to claim if you can substantiate it and bring it back
clear delta
gonna go build a house in the duat brb
The judges are gonna be... judgemental.
Imagine living with entitled prejudiced gods nearby
sudden shoal
i'm good
i love geist but i am also not one so going down there is kind of a losing game
clear delta
Duat isn't geist?
heady kestrel
Duat is mummy
Underworld is for ghosts
Its not the actual afterlife
Wait that is what you were saying
Sorry
Im dumb
Auwtagmaisyanaksugsnakaiai
clear delta
I think dead do pass by the duat. But it seems unrelated to the underworld
heady kestrel
Ghosts aren’t really the person who died
They are a imprint/piece
mighty zephyr
Dead might go to Duat
Might be where the actual souls go
(which no one knows for certain)
queen heron
Hmm. Where would you rather set up a base?
Timeline splinter, hedge, somewhere i...
probably the hedge
they all kinda suck
heady kestrel
I think only mummies go to the Duat, but they would have been supposed to if the exarch named Psychopomp hadn’t fucked with it
queen heron
Shadow wouldn't be bad if you got spirit powers tbf
heady kestrel
No love for timeline splinter?
queen heron
hmmmm
it depends on which one
honestly
the wyrd itself is, if nothing else, fair
people might fuck with me if I'm near it, but it'll usually allow for some give and take
timeline splinters are isolated
literally self contained
clear delta
I think only mummies go to the Duat, but they would have been supposed to if the...
Don't the judges judge souls them feed the ones found wanting to ammut? Always thought they stole a chunk of souls from the normal process of passing on/reincarnating abd subjected them to theur judgement
heady kestrel
I heard this one secondhand
queen heron
🤷♂️
oh its not a confirmed thing at all
the Judges and the Psychopomp are pulling on the same thing anyway
the ultimate carceral system
I think there was something about how mummy has 5 pillars and mage has 5 subtle arcana to make up the soul in a dark era
something about how each pillar and arcana overlap
velvet sparrow
Oh, I can ask here!