World of Darkness

[versed zodiac]

I mean, Consensus is dumb as a plot device because it puts everything on a weird shaky ground, so outside of Mage contexts I pretty much treat it as a thing that exists theoretically but never really intersects with the reality of the players

[fair jungle]

Yeah i meant mostly on that side, how they wanted to mish mash and call it Chimera system

[fair jungle]

Tbh I think that how it should be treated

[versed zodiac]

but like, otoh, I'll use whatever I want to say "no that's fucking dumb" if I disagree with the book stringently

[fair jungle]

Like
Ok yeah Werewolf, Vampire and Mage are in teh same world but
You don't nescessarely need to mingle all of thier unique things all the time, otherwise you will have a headache

[fair jungle]

.
So the Consensus is the Plot Hole entity from the Nostalgia Critic movie, got it/j

[versed zodiac]

people watched that?

[fair jungle]

people watched that

[mighty zephyr]

I think even in Mage it falls apart

like on it's own splat terms

[queen heron]

I think it works theoretically for the punk vibes

idk if the implementation sells it

[fair jungle]

Maybe they will have a chance to re-write it in v5

[queen heron]

but its aiming in the same direction as something like The Invisibles

[versed zodiac]

consensus would be better served if it was less "reality is exactly whatever the Sleepers think it is" and more "reality isn't 100% set in stone and if you influence public opinion it can be distorted"

like

[queen heron]

not a great fit for a larger setting though

[fair jungle]

Sounds more like a plot device for the writer do whatever he wants

[clear delta]

I kike how k6bd deals with perspective changing things, and that being how magic works

[versed zodiac]

idk I can't articulate this well but as an author at some point you do actually have to settle on certain things and stick with them

[fair jungle]

Yeah
Unless you make it a fun ride , like how Jojo betrays it's own rules all the time
but is fun

[mighty zephyr]

There's no mechanic for changing Consensus that I can find which is weird

since that seems to be

the point of it existing

and it's been done

[queen heron]

Im just less attracted to the “nothing is objective and its all made up” framing compared to the “there is secret meaning girding everything” one

[fair jungle]

I think the 'mechanic' is the freedom the storyteller has?

[queen heron]

Consensus feels like it’d run into aesthetics over substance?

But I’ve also never played OMage

[fair jungle]

Because sometimes the book goes meta and say "The Antideluvian powers is beyond the storyteller limits"

[rare swallow]

From my understanding Ascension barely works

From people that have talked to me about it

Like, rules wise

[fair jungle]

sad

well I found a copy of demon the fallen to read, hope this works better

[rare swallow]

Like I've seen people have disagreements on how the magic system even works?

Which feels like it should be the most well designed part of the magic game, yknow

[fair jungle]

It is said that Ascencion is the deep end massive big brain of TTPRPG

[queen heron]

Ive heard it said its the game philosophy students play

(the teachers, the joke continued, play awakening)

[fair jungle]

head hurt

[versed zodiac]

no this is the point of the game

Mage Debate Club is in session

[queen heron]

The one shen comix with the “amateurs” old man but its Ars Magica

[rare swallow]

I liked the concept of Ascension superficially until I started delving into it more

I think I'd rather play a sorcerer lmao

[queen heron]

Ascension stories are what first pulled me into the WoD ages ago

[fair jungle]

I just want to awoo

[queen heron]

valid

[rare swallow]

Currently I'm working on a Changeling the Dreaming game

[fair jungle]

for me it was the bloodline game and The Spoony One video on a vampire larping he did

[rare swallow]

Which has been the splat to really grab my attention

[versed zodiac]

I got suckered into VtM by hunter the parenting

i accept it

i am a bandwagoneer

[queen heron]

I think ascension could be a real tight and focused game if it wasnt tied to all the stuff that makes it ascension lmao

[rare swallow]

I started oWoD through playing V20

[fair jungle]

honestly I only started to delve in 40k because of TTS so
Hey
No shame here.

[queen heron]

like if it had rules for consensus, or commited even harder to punk rewriting of reality

[rare swallow]

After that WtO and CtD have kept me in, I have to be honest I don't even like VtM too much

[queen heron]

ooo

[rare swallow]

I feel like WtO does personal horror better and CtD does Urban Fantasy better

[queen heron]

dont see many of those

[fair jungle]

I only played ascention once but it was one session and it was in a horrible way
Nobody has read the book before, except the master, so he just gave a superficial explanation on teh system and setting

[rare swallow]

The concept of the Shadow is just the concept of the beast but executed in a way where it actually matters, instead of it being something that's ignored by players 90% of the time

[queen heron]

Wraiths one of those games like promethean where I’d want a group I really trust to play it with

[rare swallow]

Yeah you need a group of mature people

It's rewarding af tho

Really good game

CtD I like because the fight against banality is something that instantly I identified with

And I just like the light heartedness and more urban fantasy focus

[queen heron]

Losts writing really grabbed me

But Idk if the mechanics are where I’d want

[rare swallow]

I feel like I can say that about most WoD splats lmao

The storyteller system is always a bit jank

[queen heron]

the horror of inescapable damage thats ripped your life to shreds

its pretty good

I like CofD Mage for how much its focused on earnestness

Promotes engaging with the game and its themes non-cynically

deviant was fun to run

[mighty zephyr]

Deviant rules

[queen heron]

got my players really invested

because its so focused on the costs and negative impacts

made them immediately have to think about how they interacted with the world, how they saw the challenges they dealt with

[rare swallow]

Yeah that's good

Maybe it's just me but I feel like vampire does that the worst compared to the other oWoD splats

In regards to framing the reality of your character and their existence

[queen heron]

requiems big on… almost ennui? I guess?

Theres a vibe of trying to fill the endless years with distractions

masquerade idk

only know it from osmosis

[rare swallow]

You have to just hope your players earnestly roleplay and interact with the beast and the aspects of being a vampire because
A lot of the times it feels like a game of playing humans+

[mighty zephyr]

Deviant was fun in my playtime of it specifically because I made the most fucked up little guy

Let the ST take control of me while simultaniously making the most profound beatstick in the party

[rare swallow]

In my current wraith game I'm playing the biggest mess of our group

It's being fun

And I'm Shadowguiding basically the Mr Hyde of a Dr Jekyll type character

Which is also fun

[fair jungle]

can you tell me more about wraith? And the vibe

[rare swallow]

The vibe is uh

Well some people call it depression: the role playing game for a reason

It has a really strong concept and tbh making characters for it can be complicated as the game forces you to actually make someone who had a life, it actually makes you engage with the core aspect of "having been alive and now you're not"

[fair jungle]

what kind of depression
because we have Omori depression and Lisa the painful depression
Among others

[rare swallow]

You died with unfinished business, have a voice inside your head that is trying to prevent you from being happy or accomplished and you now live under the horrible, uncaring and cold Bureaucratic machine of Stygia

[clear delta]

You may get dragged into a personal scenario to torment you and break your will against your dark side

[rare swallow]

Yeah, whenever you "die" you get dragged into a Harrowing, where you have to go in direct conflict against said voice inside your head

("die" = dropped to 0 HP)

There are other ways to have that happen tho

Losing your character completely in Wraith is hard

I mean unless you fuck around and find out, then you become currency or some dude's table

Like ultimately I think it's a game about hope in the face of great adversity, but I know different people have different takeaways

[clear delta]

Stygia is being eaten by a thing, moving on to the actual afterlife is seen as impossible

[rare swallow]

Ascension is mechanically possible in WR20, which mechanics to resolve your Passions and Fetters so

Not really

[clear delta]

Seen in-universe

[rare swallow]

Yeah fair

That's the thing isn't it, Stygia moved from its original goal of helping Wraiths reach ascension to just completely focusing in fighting Oblivion head on. Wraiths eventually became cogs in a war against an impossible force to comprehend

But yeah, it's mostly depressing with a hint of hopefulness, to me at least. Of course technically it's hopeless because in lore Stygia loses in 1999 and the underworld is ravaged, but that's why I ignore the meta plot sometimes

[orchid void]

i'm thinking about how mages and changelings in miami get along

so now changelings are explaining the hedge and mages are turning slavers inside out with their brains

[clear delta]

Intestinal torsion spell

[mighty zephyr]

Read the Wild West Dark Eras

Has stuff like Changelings doing the Duel Arcane

[orchid void]

oooooh

[clear delta]

One book has a spell to help changelings make pledges with supernal beings

[queen heron]

As of OAT, they can absolutely make bargains with them

[clear delta]

OAT?

[queen heron]

Oak, Ash and Thorn

Bargains are how courts are formed

changelings go on a quest for a concept / being

Aspirant court founders must identify an appropriate entity to become the new court’s patron. The Lost don’t worry overmuch about the metaphysical nature of an entity. If it’s powerful enough, isn’t fae, is willing to cooperate, and carries some essential symbolism or mythic  identity the court can hang its hat on, that’s enough. Most changelings can’t tell the difference between types of entities, anyway — whether it’s a spirit, an idigam, a Strix, or an Ochema doesn’t matter, and their Bargains all bestow the same general benefits. Whatever oddities the Bargain and its attendant powers possess due to an entity’s otherworldly origin are just part and parcel of the process as far as the court is concerned.```

(honestly not the biggest fan about how an entity is needed at all - you should be able to just make it with the concept imo. feels more faerie)

but Supernal Entities let me cheat there anyway, so

[clear delta]

Huh, thought court pledges were just with incarnations of the world tgat might be spirits but were never specified

Cool

[queen heron]

I imagine Summer might be literally Helios

or it could be Summer itself

[clear delta]

Court bargain with Supernal demon

[queen heron]

Court of Whispers

Court of Chains

[clear delta]

Oooh

Cool ideas

I like court of whispers

[queen heron]

I dont think you need to explain where the classic seasonal courts come from

[queen heron]

but if I have to use this framework

I'd make them a grab bag

a supernal or two, a big spirit, maybe something else thats weird

[clear delta]

Temenos or Anima mundi goetia

Cthonian

[queen heron]

Temenotic goetia is a good one

they don't get to be Cool and Imposing often

though some of the biggest are rank 7+, like Death

Father Winter as "Mankinds perception of chill and sorrow and loss"

[clear delta]

Court of the City of Dreams, Los Angeles. In a bargain with ||the Director, a powerful goetia||

[queen heron]

I always thought a privateer court pledged to Mammon would be pretty good

ooo

[clear delta]

Also, maybe an archdemon from demon the descent. Not that we have indication of those existing. I just like the idea of those existing

[queen heron]

some sort of Deus Ex Machina

[queen heron]

anyway Dark Eras Wild West is pretty good

but I wish it delved more into the best intersection of Mage and Changelings themes - the development of personal identity

establishing a role or mythos for yourself
Shadow names and Entitlements, heading west to redfine yourself into the you you want to be

[clear delta]

Court of Fading Dreams. Made a bargain with a Stygian Shade/Pandemonic Demon representing the distortion of information. Memories into dreams, events into history.
Wield their powers to cloak themselves in a maze of falsehoods

[queen heron]

ah someone on Magecord actually made a merit years ago for this I think

let me see if I can dig it up

Prerequisite: Formally join a Changeling Court in some way, or forge your own bargain with one of the fundamental forces Changelings associate with.

Mantles are, of course, unique to each Court. However, there are basic guidelines that unify how they are constructed. The following guidelines give a structure to build a Mantle for a Mage who joins a Court.

● - The simplest benefit of the Mantle, and one available to even the most peripherally associated of wizards. You may use 1/2 your dots in Mantle, rounded up, as a Yantra for spells matching the semiotics of the power you've bargained with.

●● - Requiring more investment in Court or bargain, the Mantle provides a bonus to mundane skill rolls in two areas of competency associated with the power or Court.

●●● - This benefit is best modeled as a unique Arcana Attainment, generally equal to a Lesser Utility Attainment or Mage Armor in power.

●●●● - At this level of benefit, pick a single action in line with the Court's function (such as defending another, crafting arms and armor, destroying objects, etc.). That action is treated as inherently supernatural. Even mundane actions are allowed a Clash of Wills (Gnosis + Skill/Attribute) against spells or other powers, and failed rolls are treated as having earned 1 success. Relevant spells are treated as having Advanced Potency for free.

●●●●● - This benefit is best modeled as a unique Arcana Attainment equal in power to a Greater Utility Attainment.```

kind of the opposite, I guess

[queen heron]

The Court of Night is concerned with secrecy, deception, hidden passions, and knives wielded in the dark with cunning.

● - The Patron Yantra of the Court of Night applies to spells to conceal oneself from detection, deceive another, or aiding in following an Obsession in secrecy.

●● - The Mantle's bonus applies to two out of the following: Stealth, deception, underhanded violence, expressing passion

●●● - By spending a point of Mana, a mage associated with the Court of Night may move without leaving traces in the world for a scene. They leave behind no forensic evidence of their passing, and form no Sympathetic Links- even to the vaguest memory of the world itself. Time magic must overcome a Withstand of their dots in Mantle (Court of Night) to be able to perceive them when viewing the past, and people they interact with will have trouble remembering details of their identity.

●●●● - Mages sworn to the Court of Night walk without sound and are wrapped in shadow like the embrace of an old lover. If they are consciously attempting to avoid attention or detection, they may Clash with Gnosis + Stealth against all magic that would reveal them- this Clash of Wills is an exception to the rule of mages being aware of the Clashes their spells provoke. Their Stealth rolls always generate at least one success.

●●●●● - By spending a point of Mana, the mage becomes truly unnoticeable for a Scene, slipping away from even the most puissant of detection spells- except to anyone who has a Strong Sympathetic Link with them, either coming or going. Those individuals not only can still perceive the mage, but have their attention drawn to the mage constantly, causing them to automatically fail all Stealth rolls against that person. Any spells cast by a person with Strong Sympathy to the mage detect them as normal.```

(both from Rav)

think one of his blorbos had a bit of a (scandalous and unauthorized) fling with the Queen of Night

which led to this

[orchid void]

Oh hrm! Given they imply the Hedge and Astral touch in weird ways, you could argue that the Concepts you cut deals with are just Big Goetia

At least in places where I’d be interesting

[clear delta]

Yeah, think the hedge is the barrier you spend mana to pass?

[orchid void]

Go talk to one of the great Ideas that lay in the Collective Unconscious

Cut a deal

[mighty zephyr]

My favorite Crossover thing with Changeling is the Changeling/Werewolf/Spirit trifecta power

where all 3 of you combine your powers to make a Place-That-Isn't made of briar

[heady kestrel]

I feel like a incredibly powerful demon could likely exist, if not as a fallen archangel than as someone from Eden who has stayed alive that whole time

[clear delta]

Oh, demon the descent has no canon eden, afaik

[heady kestrel]

Oh I am talking about the bronze age city state that the GM ran

from demon mythology

[clear delta]

Ooooh?

Shit, I need to reread tgat

[heady kestrel]

its in... I think its the Storyteller book

[clear delta]

An ancient demon, hmm.

[heady kestrel]

Primium 10 demons are already super scary

[queen heron]

yup

the hedge is the Astral border

[queen heron]

I wouldn't want it to be 'just' a big monster or whatever

at least not only that

[orchid void]

Goetia, aren’t?

They’re ideas that have gained the same kind of personhood as a Spirit

[queen heron]

I think it has more to do with specific fans over anything the writers have put forth tbh

theres an element in some nerd and ttrpg spaces about if things are 'really' gods or not

its probably just a kneejerk reaction on my part against that

theres people I've played with who would consider something like Astral Death to be 'less' Death than anything from the Underworld

or that the courts aren't really mythic oaths sworn with vast forces, but just Big Monsters™️ changelings Don't Really Understand™️

which idk

personally less gripping for me than taking the bargains at their word

Summer Court swore an oath on Summer

maybe Helios was an intermediary, maybe not - but its not just a man behind the curtain changelings dont see

not sure my points even cohering here rip

[orchid void]

okay well

none of us or the text posted really seemed to say that

so i think you’re kind of yelling about a guy who is not here

[clear delta]

I jist feel like creating an incarnation or s thing beyond the spirit, goetia, cthonic, supernal would complicate things, if you do a crossover

Changeling on its own? Then it's fine

[clear delta]

Vergil guides you in tge astral, and asks you why he has white hair and a katana

[clear delta]

Being a demon GM must hurt. Imagine making interlocks for all players, and then they all decide to pursue tge pentagram. So you need to redo all of them

[heady kestrel]

The pentagram isn’t real

You don’t need to be afraid

[clear delta]

Demon fucks up his cipher and turns into a living black hole
Let's ignore tgat

[clear delta]

Oh, idea. Demon tgat helps people commit crimes, they buy said crimes through a pact

[mighty zephyr]

Btw official review

The blood sigil book for V5 fucking rules

[timber talon]

What’s a blood sigil

[mighty zephyr]

Blood Sorcery book

Introduces a new setting element called Tiamat or the Blood Serpent which is like leylines but instead of mana or life energy or whatever appears to be an actual cardiovascular system running through the planet

You literally dredge vitae up from the ground like oil

[crystal fern]

oh this is my jam

how's the mechanical design?

[grave gulch]

I wanna steal those ideas

[patent talon]

That's pretty fucking sick

[grave gulch]

I would ask if it pisses the werewolves off

But anything pisses them off

So my question is

Is that bad for the planet?

[clear delta]

Old doctor would drain patients with leeches

[digital siren]

wizard Gun is one of the spheres of Magic in wod everyone can use

[hidden rock]

(until the Matter mage decides no-one can)

[fair jungle]

I love how they were explicity in saying that IS canon

that Kevin got his hand Cannon

[grave gulch]

I love Kevin

They didnt get him new glasses

[fair jungle]

At least they got him a new robe

[grave gulch]

True

Do vampires even need glasses?

i suppose you could wear them for the style

[fair jungle]

Wear sunglasses during the night

[mighty zephyr]

Pretty good

The Tzimece Elemental Sorcery feels VERY left field for V5 but it's cool as hell

[clear delta]

How does it work? I like the tzimisce sorcery

[mighty zephyr]

Trade aggravated damage in order to pick an element and essentially power over it

Eventually becoming omniscient and a killsat when connected to your chosen element

[clear delta]

Using fire be like "let's play aggravated chicken"

[mighty zephyr]

Depends on your theory on what it is

If you subscribe that it's literally the blood of Gaia

Probably gonna piss them off a lot

[mighty zephyr]

You CAN just cause a volcanic eruption underneath someone whenever you want

For the price of 5 aggravated age

Damage

[grave gulch]

That's 100% going to piss them off

[clear delta]

Just throw old medical theories at them

[grave gulch]

Roll your d10s

[clear delta]

Man, werewolves and vampires treating the planet's cardiovascular system is a cool concept

[grave gulch]

U making me think of a werewolf wearing glasses and stuff

https://tenor.com/view/werewolf-whywolf-adventure-time-wolf-werevolves-gif-8015890693573151668

[fair jungle]

Why is he so cute

Also, Silver Fang-looking ass

[clear delta]

What is this from?

[timber talon]

It is true that the most destructive of all creatures on earth is a businessman wearing a suit

Thus the war form transformation should transform a person into a businessman

[fair jungle]

Adventure Time

[fair jungle]

Pentex CEO Grindset

[mighty zephyr]

The joke is that he's a "Whywolf"

[fair jungle]

Why nobody asks about the Howswolf

I like how World of Darkness games makes you stop and think "Ok but think your city if it had fantasy shit on it"

It was fun when me and brother was stuck in middle of nowhere with dad because we had to do a emergency tire change. So we started to look around and think in ways to implement the scenario in a Werewolf game.

[clear delta]

I wanted to make Dr Acula joke, but can't find the zomcom comic for it.
https://m.webtoons.com/en/canvas/zomcom/i-find-you-guiltpee/viewer?title_no=70195&episode_no=53

Take this instead

Vampire judge

[versed zodiac]

It does say in the book that Kolduns are always beefing with werewolves and that some of these rituals should be performed well after scouting the area for Lupines

[grave gulch]

[versed zodiac]

there's always werewolf-vampire beef

[fair jungle]

Undead beef
or furry beef
Such is the question
But I must still awoo

[timber talon]

Who doesn’t werewolves have beef with though

[fair jungle]

Gaia

[versed zodiac]

Black Spiral Dancers

they have beef with Gaia

[fair jungle]

Exactly

Honestly I think that goes for every major faction in WoD

[mighty zephyr]

Not Beasts c:

[fair jungle]

I never heard of 'em, can you elaborate?

The only beast I know is the vampire one

[valid merlin]

I was recently informed about how Beasts view the other splats
and man, Beasts sound incredibly aggravating

[fair jungle]

What are they

[heady kestrel]

Creatures from a dream world that eat a humans soul and replace it, becoming The Worst Guys because they do feed on trauma

[velvet sparrow]

They're a Chronicles of Darkness splat,

[heady kestrel]

At least to my understanding

[mighty zephyr]

Beasts are living nightmares perfectly synchronized with a living person

[fair jungle]

spook

[mighty zephyr]

Embodying a particular type of fear and eating off negative emotions and fear as a result

[heady kestrel]

They have a habit of wanting you to tank your morality stat

[mighty zephyr]

They believe they're all descended from the Dark Mother, a primordial monster who gave birth to almost every other monster in the world as their prime progenitor

(except Demons)

(They hate Demons)

The Beast/Demon rivalry is very very funny to me

[fair jungle]

Machine-god related right

[mighty zephyr]

They're so unrelated

yeah

[fair jungle]

Is kinda funny to me how the all creator of CoD is 'machine-god'
And his angels are machinery

[mighty zephyr]

Incorrect

[versed zodiac]

I mean

[mighty zephyr]

in that the GM is not the creator of anything

[versed zodiac]

the machine god isn't necessarily the creator

[mighty zephyr]

jinx

[versed zodiac]

that's a theory you can espouse but it's not a cold hard fact

[fair jungle]

oh

[versed zodiac]

the god machine does exist though

[fair jungle]

it's a red fact not a fact fact

[versed zodiac]

Repeat it in red!

[fair jungle]

[color=red]Is kinda funny to me how the all creator of CoD is 'machine-god'
And his angels are machinery[/color]

is as close as I can get!

[valid merlin]

Also how you told me their view on most of the other splats is "wow you're just like me fr fr, we have so much in common"

[fair jungle]

Splats sounds like something you would see in Smiling Friends

[mighty zephyr]

Beasts will usually encourage the monstrous impulses of their cousins

because free food and also because they themselves have no morality stat and can often lack the understanding that there is a weight to the actions of other people

My Beast Connie was constantly telling Mages to do Hubris

(he did understand the weight of their actions he just hated Mages)

[fair jungle]

Connie eider is the bravest thing that could or lack the perils of mages

[valid merlin]

What is Beast's Morality stat anyway?
Or do they just not have one at all?

[mighty zephyr]

He was going to kill an Archmage and become a Beast Ascendant

I did just say Beasts lack a morality stat

[fair jungle]

How do you even kill an Archmage...

[versed zodiac]

The Machine-God is not the creator of the Chronicles of Darkness universe.

[valid merlin]

Yeah but I assumed they still have something like how Demons have Cover

[fair jungle]

HOW YOU DID THAT

[mighty zephyr]

Beasts have Satiety

[versed zodiac]

as a wizard, I have access to the Red Truth, simple as

[mighty zephyr]

which is a measure of their hunger

but that's it

[fair jungle]

Fucking witches
Now watch
As I waste your time trying to prove you magic does not exist (And fail)
even tho that was not your question in the first place

[mighty zephyr]

much more akin to vitae

[versed zodiac]

```ansi
 YOUR TEXT HERE 
```

here's the source

[fair jungle]

thank

No garantee i will remember the white horse tho

Anyway. I heard the v5 hunter book
KINDA mixes some things of CoD and v5 tries to mix some things of CoD to WoD, is this true?

[mighty zephyr]

All of 5th edition has been CofD like

so far

[fair jungle]

What's your opinion on it?

[mighty zephyr]

Only good owod edition imo

[fair jungle]

DAAAAMN

[versed zodiac]

based

[clear delta]

From what I've seen, they feed more from the act than the fear? A lot of feeding examples I've been shown involve outright aggression abd pain

[clear delta]

Heard there was a fiction about a beast trying to figure out how to undo a Promethean's Dawn and another promethean killed them. This messed up the progress of their Pilgrimage, for some reason? I guess ptc was still first edition, and killing was probably bad, since they had humanity back then

[mighty zephyr]

No it's the fear

There has to be a victim

[clear delta]

But wasn't there a beast that just scavenged beautiful/valuable objects and vandalized them?

[mighty zephyr]

Iunno specifically

But if that's the case someone has to see the results

You need a victim of some sort or it doesn't count

[clear delta]

Hmm. Are there beasts that just intimidate people or participate in halloween house?

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah

It's easy to "nibble"

You just kinda have to be a dick

It's when you need food NOW

That you make bodies

[clear delta]

Huh. Autumn changelings seem to charge their glamour without much harm? (Except scarecrows)

[mighty zephyr]

Except in emergencies yeah

An Autumn bedlam would br literal mass hysteria

[grave gulch]

Sounds like a very jealous crow

[clear delta]

Hmm, cool idea. Spiteful crow

[grave gulch]

https://tenor.com/view/angry-raven-pecking-dog-attack-gif-18273732

[queen heron]

https://i.imgur.com/A1B88y9.jpg

helpful tips ❗

stay safe out there 👍

[clear delta]

So, apparently Tamers of the Cave pop up in Tome of the Pentacle? Anyone knows what it says?

[clear delta]

They're cool, but I think 1E has them kinda focused on being spiritual leaders and martyrs. Which feels a bit boring for me.
And some idea for what they do with magic. Since in 1E, they're focused with ghosts without much reason.

[upbeat lily]

I like to home brew that as "everyone hates them especially changelings"

[valid merlin]

I think that's text actually

[mighty zephyr]

My Beast was actually allied to the Court of Autumn

He'd make Faustian pacts with Changelings in order to fucking merc their huntsmen

The court didn't LIKE him but he liked them

[valid merlin]

IIRC the ones mentioned to especially not like Beasts is Prometheans

[mighty zephyr]

That's kinda dependent

since Beasts are seemingly the only supernatural immune to Disquiet

Beasts are the ONLY friends a Promethean can have that aren't other Prometheans

[clear delta]

Thought mages could use spells against it, but need to be warned first?

[queen heron]

doesnt really count as immune on their own though

Beasts just aren’t affected

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah

And a Mage would continiously have to update and improve their wards

[spice abyss]

Also it's hard to find out about disquiet as a thing you should defend against without being exposed to it in the first place. And that unfortunately makes you not want to defend against it.

[clear delta]

So, dopplegangers are ghosts produced while still alive, right?
Thinking about a mage who achieved archmastery or ascension ending up with them boosted. Like maybe ananke level

[short quiver]

One of the times "they shouldn't be the Followers of Set they should be the Followers of Apep that would make so much more sense" pops into my head for no reason

[spice abyss]

So Dopplegangers are weird things

[fair jungle]

Question, why people don't like to talk about Vampire V4 ?

[mighty zephyr]

Do you mean v5

There is no V4

[midnight grotto]

that would explain why people don't like to talk about it

[short quiver]

The 20th Anniversary Edition is kinda v4

[clear delta]

It was lost in a fae deal

[fair jungle]

....Oh!
Now that makes sense, thank ya

[short quiver]

The editions of V:tM are First, Second, Revised, 20th Anniversary, and Fifth.

(Well I guess they didn't call the first edition "First Edition" at the time, until Second Edition came out.)

This is, of course, the opposite track to the one taken by D&D, which is currently on "5th Edition" which is... conservatively the seventh.

(Possibly the twelfth.)

[clear delta]

Man, demon fucks.
"Suburban hell" is a common one for inquisitors. A lot of them are suckers for domestic slice of life and having kids. Which causes trouble, because they must hide their kid's powers and the god machine likes to collect demon-blooded

A hell often picked by tempters is to just break into another dimension/realm, or another planet, and make a home there

[fair jungle]

Thank ya!

[fair jungle]

You are reading Demon teh fallen?

[short quiver]

Descent.

[upbeat lily]

Fallen or descent?

[clear delta]

Descent

[upbeat lily]

Ngl there's something about fallen that makes me prefer it to descent

[midnight grotto]

Descent has a hefty buy-in

[clear delta]

Eh, never got a good look at fallen.
One book, I think the demon storyteller's guide, has options for mixing fallen and descent

I know little of fallen, and never checked the stuff for mixing them.

[upbeat lily]

It probably has something to do with the fact said demons are explicitly ment to be Christian. That or just the general vibe of it

[mighty zephyr]

That's what makes me dislike it tbh

The explicit "All 'pagan' religions are false" sucks ass to me

Very Punk Very Poggers

[clear delta]

There's a demon in descent who fell due to a preacher convincing them not to destroy a town. Then the book gives examples of how their relationship to religion could change

[upbeat lily]

Wot?

What's pog about that

[mighty zephyr]

Nothing

[upbeat lily]

Then that was sarcastic

[mighty zephyr]

I am being sarcastic

yeah

Wait

God I hate these fuckers and their dumb ass fucking game names I am going to shit a house

Yeah I also dislike OWoD Demon

And prefer CofD Demon

[upbeat lily]

Mechanically I agree with you

[clear delta]

Demons in descent have an interesting relationship the faith. Besides the thing with the God Machine. They are excellent liars, and make use of lies and cults a lot, create rumours.
If there's one belief that's common, it's the First. A sort of messiahnic demon who sacrificed herself to make Falling easier. The Satan Signal, an anomaly that seems to help cause Falls, might be related to her.
Demons often show up claiming some connection to her, even a means of conversation

[upbeat lily]

But, if you'll humor me for a bit. What do you think of when you hear the word demon?

[versed zodiac]

It's not worth it

Demons being demons in WoD is just not worth the baggage

[upbeat lily]

Then why call it demon?

If your not going to channel what most people think of as a demon. Then why call it that?

[mighty zephyr]

Demons could be demons in any number of ways without explicitly writing that only Christianity is correct

[clear delta]

Guys I just wanted to gush about a game

[mighty zephyr]

Sorry

[upbeat lily]

Obvi

[mighty zephyr]

Yohan

I'm not continuing this

[upbeat lily]

Sorry then

[short quiver]

I did once try to figure out just how many different kinds of nWoD critter were called "demons" at some point
I think the complete list was Supernal inhabitants of Pandemonium, Abyssal gribblies, Astral Goetia, things from the Lower Depths, and that one book with Vice-spirits that could possess people.
& finally Demon: the Descent

[mighty zephyr]

Also the Actual Devil.

[spice abyss]

Strix

[mighty zephyr]

In Jersey.

[upbeat lily]

New jersey?

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah the Jersey devil is in the core rulebook and it's the actual devil

[heady kestrel]

just read all the mechanical bits of nameless and accursed

God I wasn't expecting Scelesti, Rapt and Tremere to be So Much

[timber talon]

New Jersey Devil

What’s Lucifer doing in Jersey of all places

[mighty zephyr]

Getting people on vacation to fucking die

[heady kestrel]

Anyone got good recommendations for running mage 2e

Awakening*

[queen heron]

establish a reason for the cabal to be working together 💯%

games with a common theme or goal work better than grab-bag mage groups ime

[heady kestrel]

Wdym by theme/goal

[versed zodiac]

Basically: the players need a good reason that they're all working together, preferably one you broadcast ahead of time so they can build their characters with that reason in mind

[queen heron]

a central mystery they're all investigating, a common cause, some shared thematic overlap in obsessions

it can be broad or any of those

but they should have one

[versed zodiac]

This is the rock that group TTRPG play stands upon but some games basically hand it to you

Lancer has all these factions and angles your players can take so when you put together a module/campaign you basically already have a set of reasons people want to be working together baked into the setting

D&D just presupposes the existence of groups of chuckleheads who do adventuring as a job together

but Mage is pretty open-ended and doesn't really create common ground for Mages to be working together that's implicit, so you need to explicitly define some

[queen heron]

mages also tend to have the power to move around easier than most - whats keeping them here? whats keeping them together?

[heady kestrel]

I just thought cabals were basically book clubs/friend groups and if something became relevant they would help each other out

[queen heron]

yeah, not wrong

but they can also be research groups

[versed zodiac]

they are but in this case the cabal needs that common-ground to rest upon

[queen heron]

or have a specific goal politically

[versed zodiac]

cabal is to mages what party is to D&D adventurers

you still need some reason that these wizard-types are hanging out together, that's the rock that the cabal forms upon

[queen heron]

Awakening mages are all obsessive

I think you tend to get better stories when the stuff they're obsessed about has that connection

[versed zodiac]

fwiw my approach to forcing the players to party up is sticking them all with a common problem

[queen heron]

not that it doesnt work the other way, but

it can just be a little more jank

I'd definitely say its harder

[queen heron]

On a mechanical side....
know when rolls matter, and when they dont?

[versed zodiac]

Call of Cthulhu lends itself well, ofc. You can just say "guess what, idiots, you're all investigators and you're all stuck in this same fucked up hotel. Good luck!"

[queen heron]

you don't have to bust out full spellcasting rules everytime

[versed zodiac]

someday I gotta get back to my beloved, Live From Carcosa

[queen heron]

sometimes your job is figuring out how to make the spells impactful, or know when to handwave it when its not

[versed zodiac]

the rule of thumb is: Do NOT make players roll dice for something you don't want them to fuck up at

[queen heron]

this is personal preference, but I'd also recomend leaning into Mysteries as questions rather than answers

[heady kestrel]

That one is pretty generally applicable

[versed zodiac]

(and, conversely, feel free to make players roll dice for things that seem trivial-ish, but you kinda want them to be able to bungle)

[queen heron]

less "heres the answer to the riddle", more... what type of questions are the players asking? what questions does their poking create?

[versed zodiac]

Sometimes you gotta ask your players to roll dice to see if they can keep their cool when the Nosferatu guy shows his ugly ass mug

[queen heron]

for how powerful Awakening magic is at gathering info, it doesn't solve the biggest questions on its own

[versed zodiac]

The consequences aren't world-shaking, but you gotta let them fuck up at it

[queen heron]

it can tell you how someone died - it can't tell you Why Death Matters. It can't tell you about Death itself, about where people go, about what it feels like to die.

It can give you glimpses of the future, or omens of doom - but doesn't solve moral issues

what paths should be prioritized

part of this stuff is player driven

Mage wants characters that care about something

that are driven to seek things out

also, you dont need to stat out every npc fully

if it works for you, do it

but having a "bad, average, good" dicepool and some notes is enough

[acoustic plaza]

How the FUCK do I run Anarch Tremere

[versed zodiac]

Antitribu

[crystal fern]

I feel like the phrase, "fuck you I'm a wizard" has to be somewhere on the character sheet

more seriously I think there's a very interesting story to be told about a person who broke free from stifling hierarchy and is finding their own direction in unlife, and refuses to go back to how things were to the point that they're getting political about it

or, and this could be interesting, someone who's along for the ride with a powerful and influential Chantry who've thrown in with the Anarchs as a whole for reasons that aren't yet clear - that kind of street level "well my boss decided this is what we're doing so fuck it I guess I have no choice"

[versed zodiac]

in V5e the Pyramid exploded, which leads to all sorts of kickass shit

Hell, you can still be a self-liberated Tremere if you like that story arc, because Goratracines exist so there's still remnants of the choking, rigid order

[grave gulch]

Pyramid gone

[fair jungle]

This demon is from Descent or Fallen?

[fair jungle]

Kevin would be happy

[acoustic plaza]

Prolly the fallen

Looks more grungy and awful like OWoD

[fair jungle]

Thank Yo-
OI!
Don't say it looks awful, it's pretty date-able, if you don't count the corruption and curses

[clear delta]

Yeah, descent demons can do more organic looks, but I think they have at least some mechanical bits noticeable? And here it's pure organic
And tgat is indeed the owod artstyle

Cofd does have more classical demons in Inferno. And descent suggests (doesn't state) the possibility Inferno is the result of a Descent Demon carving out a place for themself and creating their kingdom to tgeir tastes.

[mighty zephyr]

I mean Demons in CofD are robots in their true forms

[fair jungle]

And I know how to control them

[clear delta]

Or cyborgs

[sacred viper]

Demons aesthetically look very biopunky, very meat robot, half flesh half metal

[fair jungle]

like Doom ?

Well, some of Doom demons

[heady kestrel]

Doom demons are a good touchstone but demons are also

[fair jungle]

Oh so like The Master from Fallout 1

[heady kestrel]

They have tentacles and jet engines and monofilament razors for teeth

They have wings made of fire and scrap metal

[fair jungle]

oh kinda like 40k daemons (sometimes) too

[clear delta]

One angel is a mummified corpse surrounded and pierced by an orrery of copper with verdigris. The orrery has a bunch of arms and wings

[clear delta]

He's tge smuggest motherfucker around

[mighty zephyr]

This is the only person I've known to ever draw their own Demon

[heady kestrel]

Most of the time demons are only partially transformed, or not transformed at all

The demon form only comes out when it would be meaningful

[mighty zephyr]

oh woops

that's why it's not embedding

one sec

bam

[valid merlin]

nice

[fair jungle]

That's VERY pretty, fuck

Even as an ex-catholic I still love stuff like that

[heady kestrel]

My funniest demon idea is adding more mechanical fun to stigmatics

[queen heron]

you can have descent demons be biological or mythical too

[queen heron]

yeah basically

[sacred viper]

Tho this is not universal yeah

One of the example Demons is like

A figure made out of shadows with a furnace in their chest

Or a bull sculpted out of precious gems

[heady kestrel]

About how many mages do you think would be in a relatively large city

[mighty zephyr]

In my NYC setting I have there be roughly 200 split between the pentacle and the seers

Though hard and fast rules aren't great

[heady kestrel]

Alright that gives me a lot of wiggle room

Does there tend to only be one seer ministery in an area or do they mix

[midnight grotto]

"about 100" is a reasonable size for any urban supernatural community tbh

Not necessarily in terms of statistics but in terms of storytelling

I think that's what Dave B goes with

[spice abyss]

Mages gather based on weirdness of locale, not population

[heady kestrel]

True

[heady kestrel]

Anyone know this one?

Like how many distinct Fascist Bible Study Clubs are there in an area

I know Silicon Valley has like three but that might just be Silicon Valley

[queen heron]

I think Dave mentioned he has Seers collectively be the size of two mid-size pentacle groups?

I'd imagine they'd mix a little

but probably have a predominant one in the region

its not just gonna be the Hegemon, but the Hegemon are the clear shot-callers in the area

[queen heron]

this is a big point, and something I think ties into consilium creation in general

what draws mages to the area you're setting the game?

[heady kestrel]

So like one major one minor ministery probably, got it

[queen heron]

Something like how LA has the astral crossing over into the mundane world

or new yorks leylines shifting so wildly

make something weird about the area, even if its broad or thematic, and use that to flavor the local wizard population

[heady kestrel]

Oh I have plans for that, just can’t discuss them publically because players are on themselves

[velvet sparrow]

Whaaaat noo you can talk about it

Nobody here but us trees

[heady kestrel]

🎶 Something is rotten 🎶
🎶 Something is free 🎶
🎶 And someone is lying to you 🎶

[acoustic plaza]

I meant that it’s more grimdark

Making it more aligned to OWoD

[fair jungle]

Ooooh makes sense, thank ya

[clear delta]

Looking at the demon descent fiction anthology

Demon, about her daughter
"Maria was laughing again. She was physically incapable of forgetting it, but Miss Storm savored it anyway."

You know, changelings are good allies to leave your kids with. Just spot and avoid privateers, make a pledge to have them protect your kid in case you can't anymore. They aren't untrustworthy like other demons, and know about hiding

[heady kestrel]

Demons would sell you down the river for a cornchip, its true

[fair jungle]

I will give you this, the talk betwee nthe demons and the Priest in the Fallen book is very interesting.
The perspective of how God made the Angels love humans as much as they love him but not allow to be seen and that created such a frustration, is very nice

A bit 'eh' how the angels are sometimes show as 'human with wings' but still ,nice the back and forward
And how the demon says that, yes, Adam and Eve are the first humans, but at the same time, descendents of countless 'Apes'

[clear delta]

Interesting. I heard of the opening fiction before

[fair jungle]

For a narrative driven game, I found very important what they did here, the talk back and forth helps the mood and mentality of the characters of the world and helps the player make his own character as well.

[clear delta]

Guess either version of demon throws some hard hitting fiction

[fair jungle]

As well set straight what is what, because when you think 'hell' you think of the fire torturous place
but in the opening it was very clear it's an abyss/void of numbness

[fair jungle]

Which I love tbh

[fair jungle]

Also this I find brilliant. Because originally hell was not a fire filled place, at least the layers started because of Dante's comedy.
So the authors probably had to dig deep

[clear delta]

Yeah, in dante's inferno the lowest level, treason, is basically deprivation. Though I think it's only being frozen, some adaptations have it be a void.
Because loneliness and numbness suck

[fair jungle]

I prefer the Limbo's layers, fun times
heaven was a good finalle except for one of dante's fav kings being side by side with god

We are going full balls to the wall babyyyyy

[clear delta]

Quantum physics is relevant to both demon games? Lmao

[fair jungle]

.
OH HEY THE N WORD HELLO

[clear delta]

Uh?

[clear delta]

I'm going to guess this was a bit of white wolf-ness

[fair jungle]

Yeeeeeah
Ok that the Priest is black, the demons are looking like black people
but still
Why
God

It was released in 2002
plz white wolf

[clear delta]

2002?

[clear delta]

Anyway, with more tact, demons' relationship to minorities can be interesting.
There was a demon the descent actual play with a demon tgat felt strongly about racism, and preferred black covers

[fair jungle]

That's interesting

[clear delta]

Demons have a varying degree of preference and identification with human groups. In descent, and I imagine in fallen too

[fair jungle]

Without a doubt, specially since as angels they gave the apple to humans out of love

[versed zodiac]

I'm sorry, what

I'm lost

The preacher called a demon the gamer word?

[clear delta]

(Forgot the tag. Cofd) A thought: a descent demon that transitioned their god-given cover, and prefers to have their covers be trans to keep being part of the trans community. Instead of picking ones that were already assigned the gender at birth.
There's probably one in the books

[fair jungle]

The demon, who is presenting himself as a black man, said the preacher don't need to joke about being a black man, and used the gamer word as a way to 'complete' his joke.
Because around that time a lot of white cunts still though black people are still stupid brutes and both joked around that

As I understand it

So he's basically saying "Sorry for being a stupid black man who can't grasp 'simple' quantum physics" in a mocking way.
And the other character is jabbing back by saying "We're all individuals of color here".

[queen heron]

diversity win! this robotic horror specifically targets LGBT people when cutting out bits of a life to make their patchwork own

hmm

Is transitioning a cover yourself, built from people satisfied in their gender identity, a cover break?

thats a weird one

[clear delta]

Could grab stuff from pre transition trans people

[fair jungle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/508703630862581760/1226937216165740667/image.png?ex=66269553&is=66142053&hm=a9fbde0f8d110ccd6f080789bf73f617cff6dcde90671b5d9878eb8d4773c57d& Demons summon this so you can defeat it and transition

[clear delta]

Or early transition. Or stuff unrelated.

[sacred viper]

😌

[acoustic plaza]

Demons pretty weird

I am more of a Mage and Changeling fan tho

[versed zodiac]

can a demon steal someone's identity from before they transitioned

stealing deadnames for fae antics

[heady kestrel]

you can steal deadnames and stuff yeah

[sacred viper]

Probaly yes in lore and original rules? But IIRC they changed the rules to "Its only a cover break when you do something that would be a moral breaking point for your cover" in the player handbook

[heady kestrel]

Honestly I prefer the cover breaks as "out of chareccter" rather than "this would distress them"

[queen heron]

yeah

I just never considered if changing gender counts as being out of character

[fair jungle]

Fae are cunts and would 100% wear a copy of yourself before transition just to fuck with you

[heady kestrel]

encourages dumb tactics like making soul pacts with serial murderers so that you can switch to them and murder people without having any downsides

[queen heron]

Lost seems you could do an interesting story about that with the Fetches

[fair jungle]

Technically the pact is with your soul and not your 'name' if that makes sense
So transitioning would not help

[queen heron]

the fun thing is that pacts arent even with the Soul

[heady kestrel]

huh, this is interestng

[queen heron]

the souls just kinda there, I think?

mhm

[sacred viper]

||Asking my mortal friend if that person seems like an egg before I steal their identity|| Horrible joke

[clear delta]

The Rani? *Doctor theme song plays*

[queen heron]

afaik its an intentional reference

[valid merlin]

the Surgeon intrigues me

wonder what flavor of Seers that would be

[fair jungle]

Imagine you telling a priest Lucifer gave the apple out of love

[heady kestrel]

I could see Cannibal and Surgeon as faces/pieces of Raptor

[valid merlin]

Oppression through Science maybe?

[heady kestrel]

maybe, I would go "through beauty"

lean into that weird ass plastic suregon villan zone

[queen heron]

Aesthetics as morality?

or the problems with medical science in history

[queen heron]

Pathologizing peoples reactions as a way to minimize them

the way that some peoples medical concerns are treated more seriously

One of my friends ran with the Mother as the strangling force of the family

[spice abyss]

Oh yeah, OWoD Lucifer is wild.

[queen heron]

and had them maybe-be the Guest, control through 'politeness'

determining whats proper or not

[queen heron]

what'd he do?

the whole Fall thing, probably

[fair jungle]

I been liking to read, I love biblical interpretations like that and not "HE'S ALL EVIL EVIL EVIL REEEEE"

[fair jungle]

Basically the Angels gave the apple out of love, because they were frustrated the humans had so much potential but could think only as animals

And Lucifer was 100% ready to die for it

[fair jungle]

Example: This is his dialog

[timber talon]

He foresaw a great disaster that would befall humanity that would occur that would happen with god’s approval or inaction

And decided that he was gonna do something about it

I think

[fair jungle]

That as well

And how the two main orders about humans are in conflict with each other
1: Love humans as much as you love God
2: Don't directly interact with them in no way and leave them be

It's a fun read

[clear delta]

You know. From what I read of demon the descent. It's at it's best when the demons are driven by love
Demons who want to protect their loved ones, or help people in general

[heady kestrel]

I say it varies

Demons who are bitter and angry or paranoid or selfish can also be really fun

[clear delta]

Guess so. Need to read everything, and tastes are variable

Wednesday is such a fun humanity obsessed madman

[clear delta]

(Cofd) Oh, demon has a plot hook for dealing with a nightmare maze haunting demons

That and the hedge are the only stuff I found connected to the astral

The hedge is quite inhospitable. Setting up a base there is hard

[short quiver]

yeah you don't want to hang out in the Hedge

[clear delta]

No aether there, demon form costs to enter, you can't use any cover but the one you entered with, thorny areas tear at your cover

And finding your way back from the hedge is hard, as it shifts

[sudden shoal]

I also only just got told this thread exists and screaming

Please feed all demon and changeling discussion straight into my neural cortex

[mighty zephyr]

you missed a bunch of it earlier

[sudden shoal]

I wasn't heeere

I've been really bitten by the ol' WoD bug again but as I have admittedly vented a little about I've found it difficult finding groups

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah it's one of those things

need a very specific buncha weirdos

[sudden shoal]

I'm a specific weirdo

[velvet sparrow]

I think we all are, here

[clear delta]

Kay, don't let me forget to link some previous demon discussions to you

[fair jungle]

Demon the Fallen has only one edition
In that edition there is a conversation of a demon posessing a priest's son and the priest
The talk is very interesting, they talk about Eden, Heaven, why Lucifer gave the "apple"
Ps: out of love

Fun philosophical stuff

[grave gulch]

My friends want me to run a v5 one shot

I have no idea as to what to do

[fair jungle]

At least for Werewolf v5 there is a free one shot adventurer you can download from their website

[grave gulch]

maybe i can steal something

But yeah usually i make people hunt the vamps not be the vamps

[clear delta]

#tabletop-discussion message
#general message
#general message
#1161696306100715550 message
#1161696306100715550 message

[fair jungle]

In the Reckoning v5 book don't they have an short one shot at the end of the book?

[fair jungle]

Well fuck you too Michael, Humans are ignorant and only know discovered what a rock is
And you are already fucking us to be eaten by wolves >:V

[grave gulch]

Thry want vampire 5

[fair jungle]

https://renegadegamestudios.com/auld-sanguine-a-vampire-the-masquerade-new-years-eve-story/ I got you fam

[fair jungle]

Lucifer: "If anyshit happens, my neck for redemption, because what we do is for love"
Lucifer after all goes to shit:

Lucifer going full Anakin

[spice abyss]

As I said, Lucifer is wild

[fair jungle]

It's been a fun read and I have yet to see any rules in the book

[heady kestrel]

Reading mage 2e right now after I only read mage 1e

Wonder how much has changed

Mage the awakening*

[grave gulch]

ooooh

[orchid void]

A bit of mechanical cleanup, and a bit of tone-tightening, but not all that much

[midnight grotto]

I'd say the mechanical side is substantial

[heady kestrel]

are the seer names for paths only internal or do they also externalize them

like will a seer call theurgist a templar

[grave gulch]

wait...i can be meaner to vampire players right?

since vampires are already kind of dead

[versed zodiac]

Vampires don’t take a ton of damage

[queen heron]

specific spell mechanics, quite a bit of flavor, some of the political realities and factions

broadly you can move things from one to the other

[grave gulch]

so...i shouldnt hit them with a truck?

[versed zodiac]

No like

They take less damage than normal people from mundane sources of damage

[grave gulch]

oooh

[queen heron]

they don't need all that other stuff people need to keep going

so their bodies are hard to stop

not like their hearts beating, you know?

[clear delta]

@sudden shoal There are areas with demon blooded clans. Since demons babd together to protect their children

[grave gulch]

right

[versed zodiac]

also vampires just like

don't respect most forms of common injury

blades crease their flesh without cutting, blunt force trauma neither bruises flesh nor breaks bone except in extreme cases, etc.

[spice abyss]

The real problem is the aftermath

[queen heron]

I like to flavor it more like

they get cut but no blood flows out

[spice abyss]

Don't Juggle Dumpsters Dumbass is a common Masquerade breach.

[queen heron]

to me the vampire is the vitae

[versed zodiac]

I like the idea that vampires are genuinely unholy fiends who can't be harmed easily by mortals

[queen heron]

so its fun to treat that as the 'real' body, and the meats just a covering

[versed zodiac]

so for me, I like that it really does just take an outrageous feat of physical strength to wound one meaningfully

I don't hate the whole "you have to harm the vitae to harm the vampire" thing either, but having them be corpselike in terms of cold, firm, unbending flesh is also sinister

[queen heron]

yeah

both vibes are cool

[short quiver]

I'm pretty sure the Seers just use their own names internally?
With some variation depending on the Seer.

[short quiver]

& so, okay, setting-wise most of what's in 2nd was in 1st, but scattered across a gameline's worth of supplements, so now reading the core book is telling you all the cool dangerous crazy stuff that your Mage is going to be dealing with now instead of spending a frankly inordinate ammount of time talking about how things worked in an ancient city that broke so hard it's not even part of the timeline you're in anymore.

Mechanically, it really (IMO) streamlines and works out the magic system, and ditches the whole Coincidental/Vulgar thing along with a few other "balance" exeptions to the rules. Really tries to keep things consistent.
& I think the Reach and Paradox mechanics both keep you from going too crazy (while giving you license to go crazy as needed), while also working out to make the Guardians of the Veil less pointlessly dickish.

Also, it makes the Free Council's philosophy of magic have a mechanical effect witch is pretty minor but a big deal to me.

[clear delta]

Also, goetia fine now

Now any mind mage can dip into goetia without rolling wisdom

[short quiver]

& brings Summoning right into the core book!
Which, not the hugest deal but I kinda love summoning.

[clear delta]

Yeah, summoning is amazing

[midnight grotto]

Though the expanded summoning rules are even better

I really really like how genuinely mystical "call up this weird critter and complete its trial to get a rules-breaking boon" feels

[clear delta]

"You sold your awakened soul to the evil demon/divine lady, didn't you"

"Oh, it was for the shop spirit, just to get good yugioh cards???"

[heady kestrel]

that would make sense

[orchid void]

yaaaaay got into a hunter game

though we're running personal setting rather than proper hunter

[short quiver]

thinking of the Seers
I really like how the nWoD manages (IMO) to make its antagonist factions realistic, maybe even relatable, without being sympathetic.

Like, with the Seers, they aren't arguing (like the Technocracy) that they're really the ones fighting the good fight for the better world. They're serving the metaphysical concept of oppression and they're well aware of it, but you can understand why someone would be willing to.

[clear delta]

Sellouts, basically. They get rewarded well for their service

But enter a mess of scheming and backstabbing

[mighty zephyr]

I fucking love the Pure

which is weird because I hate the Garou

(pre-5)

[short quiver]

Yeah, the Pure are my other go-to example. They're not Secret Good Guys but they're very... well, real, as far as bad people go.

[mighty zephyr]

And they're kinda right!

But also very wrong

[clear delta]

Pure are eugenicist, luddites, crazy cultists.

[mighty zephyr]

But they're also right that Luna uses the Uratha as foot soldiers and pawns in a cosmological battle for supremacy and has outright divinely programmed them from their original purpose as Urfarah's brood.

[short quiver]

Well, yeah, fair. They do have a point!

[clear delta]

Luna changed their purpose?

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah

Or profited off their creation

as always, unclear

[grave gulch]

Pure sound cool

They are not necessarely evil are they?

[fair jungle]

Demon the Fallen is making me want to read the Wraith book
Because basically an Angel should come and guide your soul
That is not happening nowadays for some reason

And the more asshole demons would be great Werewolf villains since some love to bring misery and destroy fauna

[grave gulch]

Read it

Always nice

I took some ideas from it myself since my players base was haunted

[fair jungle]

Which Wraith book you recommend?

[grave gulch]

Talk to Júlia

They would be the one to recommend u a book

[fair jungle]

thank u

[rare swallow]

20th as always is a decent point of entry.

At least I think it is for Wraith

[fair jungle]

Thank!

[rare swallow]

After that you have Second edition for more reading material

Wraith 20th released back in 2018 so it didn't get any planned releases besides 1 other book (Book of Oblivion) because of the whole switch to Paradox iirc

[acoustic plaza]

There’s a wraith vr game out which is neat

[fair jungle]

At least it got more than 1 edition
Demon is stuck in 1e

Demon and Mummy if I am not mistaken

[short quiver]

Which is a shame, because I love Demon: the Fallen but mechanically, it... could use another pass.

[clear delta]

Uh, I think they are

They tend towards misanthropes who can be a threat to harmony. Like that plot where they tear down the gauntlet

[fair jungle]

I been loving to read their book
Just know it's-
Old White Wolf

Old white wolf

But the talks the demons have are interesting, I do recommend

[abstract coral]

ah yes, The Insane™️ (severe autism)

[short quiver]

& about the Pure, mm
"Evil" might be a stretch and it's not as though our protagonist werewolves are strictly "good" but the Pure are kind of defined by adhering to philosophies that are... bad.

[fair jungle]

It's like grandma telling you a good story
It's fun, enticing to hear more
but-
It's grandma telling so yeah

Then again O'Tolley's is a thing in world of Darkness as well 'evil cellphone' company

EVIL BURGER

[short quiver]

Werewolf: the Apocalypse is not coy about its political stance.

[heady kestrel]

Free council mage who makes “mysterium cringe” edits

[patent talon]

Does Werewolf Apoc make the distinction between the corporations that are destroying the world and the people at the bottom who are just trying to pay rent by working for them?

[spice abyss]

Not really

[sacred viper]

oWoD was not good at nuance

[short quiver]

It was generally presented as, like, bad for the people working in it too, but that can mean economic exploitation or it can mean that the ambient evil of the evil corporation you have to work for gets you possessed by an evil spirit and turns you into a gross monster.

Should also note that Werewolves in W:tA are not necessarily... friendly toward humanity as a baseline.
You are playing a monster.

[fair jungle]

yes!

At least in V5

The rulebook is very direct about it "There is Penthex that uses Worm(evil) spirits in their stuff and actually want Gaia death + money. But there are companies that just don't know about the spirits and are oblivious of what they are doing to the spirit world"

[midnight grotto]

one of my favorite Awakening lore bits is definitely a bestselling YA fantasy series being thinly-veiled Council satire/propaganda

[patent talon]

Word, to be clear I wasn't expecting many werewolves themselves to make the distinction, especially when they're going Beast Mode but I was curious if the rulebooks points it out

[fair jungle]

The rulebook at least in v5(The only one I read) does

The werewolf, garous are very...
"We don't agree on anything, fuck you, I am right"

[heady kestrel]

Mysterium are the most cringe order

Not the worst morally or anything but pretty solidly going in the cringe compilation

Like I say this as a fan

[midnight grotto]

Mysterium got a lot cooler to me once I realized what a cult they are

[heady kestrel]

Oh they are definitely a cult but that is also one of the reasons they would go in the compilation

I am talking from a in universe perspective

[midnight grotto]

Like getting into Mage I had the first impression of "why aren't all the wizards in the 'do wizard shit' order..." and then I was like "oh because they're a mystery cult with heavy emphasis on internal politics and some very embarassing historical connections"

[short quiver]

One of my favorite Awakening lore bits is that Tom Cruise is a Banisher.

[heady kestrel]

Don’t forget their strong association with being paranoid about sleepers and being generally antisocial

Not to mention the magical artifact kleptomania

[short quiver]

It's also deeply funny to me that the "tech nerd" Order is actually a lot more militant than the militant Diamond Orders.

[mighty zephyr]

Metaphysically and philosophically they are worse for humans overall than Forsaken packs

In practice both of them are about as equally reprehensible

[grave gulch]

Oh yeah, they hate humans and everything humans related

[mighty zephyr]

Only one of them does

The Predator Kings

The Fire Touched and Ivory Claws don't have as strong feelings

[grave gulch]

I see, do we know much about those 2? What are they about?

[fair jungle]

They solved the mystery! 😄

[valid merlin]

Ivory Claws think werewolves should rule over humans IIRC

[clear delta]

Abd celebrities are also powerful goetic gods

[valid merlin]

And they obviously should rule the werewolves by virtue of their noble lineage

[mighty zephyr]

All of them werewolves should rule over humans

They want the return of Pangea

[short quiver]

Like the Arrow is "we hone ourself through conflict and service, and at times there may be no alternative to lethal violence"
the Guardians like "we will do whatever is necessary, and if what is needed is murder, we bear this sin as we do others"
then the Free Council like "ONE! HUNNERT! SEER! SCALPS!"

[mighty zephyr]

Firetouched are faithful zealots who are the MOST in tuned with spirits of any tribe. They cannot tie lies and spread plague and sickness around as metaphors for faith.

[fair jungle]

Nowadays mostly red Talons(Werewolf tribe) that think Werewolf>Humans
But Glass Walkers (WW Tribe) help humans , hell some even think spirits and humans should all be in harmony

[grave gulch]

are they werewolves or just beeg rats?

[fair jungle]

There is wererats

[mighty zephyr]

The Ivory Claws are eugenicsits who believe in the purity of blood, and foster powerful werewolf bloodlines. They hunt everyone who turns their back on family. This includes all forsaken

[grave gulch]

Heh

Beeg rat

[grave gulch]

so having a kid with a human is a nono for them?

[fair jungle]

That's why I think in V5 they added something else to go with Hanaro (Werewolf Super Depression) , being Hauglosk, which is basically you forsaking humanity and just going full "My cause is just, fuck you"

And when you go full Hauglosk, you lose the character

[mighty zephyr]

No, they still do.

[fair jungle]

"There is a state where Garou have succumbed to the fanatical devotion of their cause, losing all compassion and mercy know as hauglosk. Each time they disregard consequences and let the ends justify the means, they slide closer to it."

[grave gulch]

Oh

Ur at least going to have a protrctive family then

[short quiver]

Ahh, the Cool Robot 6+ condition

[mighty zephyr]

The thing about the Pure is that they are ALL tribe and NO Auspice, so their Firstborn give them surprisingly broad interpretations of their bans.

As long as YOU PERSONALLY don't feel you're breaking the Oath that's usually good enough for the firstborn

[fair jungle]

But in werewolf we have TWO!
For Depression and another for Fanatism
DOUBLE THE FUN*

*Watch the fuck out or lose the character dumb fuck

[valid merlin]

From what I read, the Ivory Claws rely more on human allies actually
Because their purity bullshit means they have less werewolves than other tribes

[mighty zephyr]

They are usually the pure tribe rocking the most resources too

[grave gulch]

Ivory claws sound cool actually

[fair jungle]

"The Ivory Claws are one of the three Pure Tribes. They strive to become the purest among the Pure by eradicating the mongrelized bastards that have bent knee before Luna. "

A-are you sure about that

[grave gulch]

I mean

still bad

But they have some cool stuff going on

[fair jungle]

Oh they are from Werewolf the forsaken
Not Werewolf the Apocalypse
Ooooooh

I THINK in apocalypse the closest we have is the red talons
https://wta.paradoxwikis.com/Red_Talons
Most of their members being born wolves too

[grave gulch]

i was also thinking of the Get of Fenrir

[valid merlin]

The funniest part is that AFAIK being a werewolf doesn't breed true anyway

So all their eugenics bullshit is just wrong and pointless

[grave gulch]

Tell that to the werewolf

[fair jungle]

True, that too, but Get is more antagonistic since they are FULL hauglosk

[grave gulch]

Everything gon die

[short quiver]

Oh yeah, see, someone did a joke RPG of Lancer (I think it was called Bohemian Earspooner, but then they might've changed it because people don't realize that the Bohemian earspoon is a polearm) based on Honey Heist
Basically you have two stats, Wow Cool Robot and War Is Hell, and they operate on a sliding scale where they always add up to six and if one goes up the other one goes down.
So if either one goes all the way to 6 you lose your character because they're a hyperactive shallow dweeb/ constant massive downer and nobody wants to hang out with them.

[mighty zephyr]

No the Red Talons are the Predators Kings

The Ivory Claws are the Silver Fangs

[fair jungle]

Really? Silver fangs are mostly the... Ventrue of the Werewolfs, as I understand

[mighty zephyr]

Yes

So are the Ivory Claws

[fair jungle]

Oh! Nice nice

[grave gulch]

What about u Vky

Which one are u

That's right im onto your shenanigans

Or should i say WEREshenanigans

[clear delta]

Abd tgen we have ghost wolves. They just exist to get fucked up by tge horrors

No player character should be one

[fair jungle]

pain

[clear delta]

They join no tribe, so they don't get the magical shots

And get warped by horrors

[fair jungle]

I blame God and the Angels

And Michael's Curse

[mighty zephyr]

One of my cowboy werewolf characters is a werewolf

ghost wolf

and guess what!

space is evil

[fair jungle]

Oh yeah because space is a

LIE

[mighty zephyr]

Space is true

it's just the truth is that everything out there is alive, looking at you, and hates you.

[fair jungle]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669025110916857857/1227653042569084998/image.png?ex=66292ffe&is=6616bafe&hm=24b01a7ae1ea0ff27f8f32dfcfce4484eaa8af2fb9984152883d1ad13d368bd5& also, sister found this while playing a vampire the masquerade visual novel
Cute

[fair jungle]

Cain is in that list
God probably
Demons is a 50/50

[patent talon]

Luna might be crazy but she's holding back a lot of stuff that's way worse

[clear delta]

Oh, arcueid reference

[clear delta]

At the Pure: You fools. I was holding them back

[versed zodiac]

oh hey it's Arceuid again

[mighty zephyr]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/990562478675066953/1227667088295067709/20240410_110924.jpg

[clear delta]

Lmao

Consider: promethean Voyager probe

[patent talon]

Chuck Berry has started speaking back to us

We should not have given the void our words

[fair jungle]

Chuck berry?

[patent talon]

They put a recording of the song Johnny B Good by Chuck Berry on the voyager disc

[velvet sparrow]

Wait what's the deal with the Mysterium?

I'm making a Mysterium Mage rn

[orchid void]

The Mysterium are a mystery cult, in much the same way the rest of the Diamond Orders are

Eventually you get deep enough in the Mysteries, and get inducted into the shared mindsoul of the Mysterium

[velvet sparrow]

ngl All the Orders seem like they're kinda assholes it's great

Like, I've read the section on them in 2e, but that's about it

[queen heron]

the big thing is Magic as Alive

something that moves with purpose, and grows

since its Alive, it can also be killed

broadly this makes them prioritize things 'connected to the Supernal (aka more Real and True and Beautiful)', pretend they do not see the strong Anti-Sleeper bias that runs through their members

and be a little gunshy when it comes to magic stuff that probably shouldn't be around

cursed daimonikon? tainted rotes? exarchal sarira?

better to lock it up than break it

[fair jungle]

They can make you debased 😦
They make you lose subscriber 😦

[queen heron]

really fits the hubris theme imo

[short quiver]

Just highlighting this little bit because, yeah.
The separation of Truth (the Supernal) from mundane reality is a metaphysical fact of the Mage cosmology and all Magi are defined by their connection to the Truth, but the Mystagouges are the ones most primed to take this into "throw the whole material universe out"

[queen heron]

yup

[short quiver]

But, yeah, all the Orders are kind of assholes to some degree or another.

[queen heron]

the Mysterium was two cults in a trenchcoat

Keepers of the Word and Pancryptiates

[short quiver]

(That said, I am shamelessly in the can for the Free Council of Assemblies.)

[queen heron]

I think they all got good bits

one of my friends, gm'd quite a bit of mage, likes to say

"The Guardians are the only Order that has ethics as a core component of the ideology."

I love that as a line

theres a little bit of creeping horror to it

[sacred viper]

They arent wrong

[queen heron]

exactly!

but like, damn

they all also have bad bits

[short quiver]

Well the Libertines have a specific ethical creed as a core of their ideology.
Specifically "Setting Seers On Fire Is Always Ethical" but

[mighty zephyr]

Adamantine Arrow is the coolest

[orchid void]

Destroy the Followers of the Lie doesn’t count as ethics

[short quiver]

agree to disagree >_>

[orchid void]

That’s just praxis ;3c

[mighty zephyr]

tbf this is also "Setting the Silver Ladder on fire is always ethical"

[orchid void]

Hierarchy Fosters The Lie n all

[queen heron]

theres a fun detail that the FC and SLs relationship isn't that antagonistic in most parts of the world

[orchid void]

But also Damb what part of the Guardians is the ethics bit

[queen heron]

and the American consiliums troubles with it are from what-ever the wizard operation paperclip was

[queen heron]

tbf they are the faction most concerned with the moral behavior of mages

and recruit people with a strong personal sense of ethics

the guardians don't kill for fun, or to be stronger

they murder when they think someone needs to die

[orchid void]

They kill because Sins undertaken for a righteous cause bring Wisdom

Which

Isn’t ethics exactly

[mighty zephyr]

https://i.imgur.com/52rsSGx.png

They do focus a lot on "virtue" and "righteousness"

which IS skewed because Mages but is the only Order actually concerned with it

[orchid void]

“Well look, Wizard-Christ will forgive me so let’s make MJ-12 real with wizards”

[queen heron]

They are probably the faction that is least likely, on average, to let a Rapt or Scelestus slip by ignored

or an Infernalist

[orchid void]

Other than Legions

[short quiver]

Yeah, they're granting themselves license to sin if they think it fosters virtue and wisdom more broadly.
But that's a lot more deliberate consideration of the morality of their actions than the other Order creeds give.

[queen heron]

or someone that harms sleepers in the way that twings against a specific guardians inner moral philosophy

[orchid void]

This is all very fair

[queen heron]

for better or worse (and often it is worse) they dont let things slide

[short quiver]

Where the Arrows are like "You Were Only Following Orders" & the Ladders are like "'Hubris' is a word for cowards."

[orchid void]

“Paradox answers Pride” intones the Guardian

[mighty zephyr]

"Path is choosing what atrocities you commit and Order is how you justify it" my new pitch for Mage character creation

[hidden rock]

Clever

[mighty zephyr]

It is really funny that every Order comes with an Excuse

literally every Mage cult needs to come in with a pre-built "Here's to help you sleep at night"

[short quiver]

Unrelated to anything but I kind of love this for my Free Council Mastigos I've played a couple times
Each Path has certain materials that their Tools can be made out of, so an Acanthus would use a Wand of silver or glass.
But for Mastigoi one of the options for material is just generally "worked"

So they would cast magic with literally whatever crap they had on hand.

[hidden rock]

Yeah, the creations of humanity. The star's point aiming down. To us.

(Yes, I still love the Tome of Watchtower's Mastigos Chapter. Sue me.)

[short quiver]

No it's great.
Because yeah it was a joke when I'd have them break into an office and do their magic using a coffee mug for the Cup, loose change for the Coin, and whatnot.
But it was also a key to their worldview that they don't need froufrou special Occult Implements. It's all as magic or as mundane as anything else. The Cup isn't special because it's fancy, it's as special as I need it to be while I'm using it.

[clear delta]

Oh yeah, they have the misinformation aspect

[clear delta]

MJ-12?

[short quiver]

Majestic 12.
The supposed government agency that keeps the UFO truth from getting out.

[fair jungle]

my fucking eyes

[fair jungle]

Ah yes the Deus Ex 1 antagonists (Sorta)

[short quiver]

also, as a habitual Mastigos player
I really appreciate how Space changed between 1st & 2nd Mage: the Awakening. A lot more pure-Space uses these days, where 1st had a lot more dedicated to being kind of a "supplement your other powers" option

[short quiver]

Yeah very much part of the conspiracy theory mélange that Deus Ex used

[fair jungle]

Now, would they fit better as Vampires, Worm indulced old fucks, Technomages or Demons

[heady kestrel]

I think silver ladder are my favorite

[orchid void]

Is THAT what Worked means??

Lucy’s just been using her puzzles and hat as Tools

Since the puzzle is Dedicated and the shadows from a hat brim count as Veils

[fair jungle]

Silver ladder?

[hidden rock]

Honestly, the orders in general were very interesting from the moment the book stopped saying "Atlantis" every 3 sentences.