World of Darkness

[spice abyss]

I have good news about Reqiuem letting there be other types of vamps aside from Kindred.

[heady kestrel]

Oh yeah definitely

I could see like, a non-kindred vampire type modeled off morbius as a really fun villan or even ally

Just not necessarily as a player character

[digital siren]

blade?

actually that would also fall as thinblood i think

[heady kestrel]

Oh Blade just works

The issue with Morbius is that he’s a scfi vampire instead of a fantasy vampire

[digital siren]

walk on sunlight tho?

[heady kestrel]

I think he can it just fucks with his healing factor and he really dislikes it

[heady kestrel]

I would need to actually read VtR in order to do it but I have had thoughts about science-vampires before

Ever since I was looking through the wiki and saw that guy with a blood transfusion machine that can transfer vitae

[digital siren]

No i mean doesnt blade walk around in sunlight so he cant be full vampire

[spice abyss]

Gentlemen, behold!

When filtered through the Rizzetti apparatus, the bacteria enter the subject’s body and form a kind of symbiotic relationship with their new host, flushing the body of impurities and curing the recipient of whatever ails him. Over the years, patients have been cured of everything from tuberculosis to cancer to age itself by the device. It is truly a miracle cure.

The “cure” lasts only a short time. Without regular sessions with the apparatus, impurities build up and the patient gets ill again. The bacteria themselves thrive and reproduce and die, eventually crowding the veins of the patient with a tiny nation of blood-drinking symbiotes. As the infestation grows, the body cannot produce enough blood to sustain the bacteria, and the host begins to experience cravings. The body needs blood, and it doesn’t know how to express it in any way other than hunger.```

Machine what makes you a vampire.

[digital siren]

So V1 in Wod

[heady kestrel]

Oh sweet

[fair jungle]

You have a wonderful argument for a flamethrower werewolf

Fire Werewolf
Fire Werewolf

.
JETPACK WEREWOLF

[digital siren]

hunter the parenting stuff

[fair jungle]

I love big D

[clear delta]

That's all vampire clans in vampire the requiem. Vampire is just the result of convergent evolution of undead creatures. There are vampire adjacent creatures. Whether a being gets classified as a vampire probably involves some arguing and politics.
You can also evolve out of being a vampire, into some other spooky creature
(Cofd)

Oh, c'mon! Someone already posyed that

I gotta check more the rest of chat

[fair jungle]

Well, have a werebat kicking a werewolf in the chest

[timber talon]

Are werebats and werewolves at war

[fair jungle]

They were when the Europeans came to the Americas (WoD)

[digital siren]

TBH

what isnt at war with the werewolves?

[fair jungle]

Excellent point

[hidden rock]

The Woofs are kind of assholes in oWoD in general

[digital siren]

they did genocides to like 10 species

and the only ones they didnt was because they were made to survive or they cant attack it

[fair jungle]

Honeslty that's on Gaia
"Mmmh let's make fucking murder blender berserkers as my guardians, yes"

[fair jungle]

But yes, they did, they even fough against the other were-species, were-bats are extremely sore and hateful towards the Garou because of that

[digital siren]

yeah that is why I mentioned it. they basically hunted to extinction their peers

and iirc, if that didnt happened the end times wouldnt have come or they would have been fought way harder

[fair jungle]

yeeeah...

Btw, since in lore the were-hyenas are basically Garou but Africa, would you allow a player to play as one following the same rules of the Garou or nha?

[clear delta]

The wererats can get a mickey mouse and kemono forms

[grave gulch]

Doesnt sound that bad but other garou would probably dislike them and vice versa

[fair jungle]

HAH

[digital siren]

I just imagine someone impersonating mickey mouse and them hating it from the get go

[mighty zephyr]

Shifters are no longer geographically locked

[digital siren]

because mickey is the symbol of disney and capitalism

[fair jungle]

Globalization!

[fair jungle]

god, yeah

"But Mizu, Hyenas don't howl"
But
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2_yabK1qLE
They Moo 😏

[grave gulch]

Weremoose and weregoose team up when

[fair jungle]

They got eaten by the werecrabs

[little light]

Weremoose fear the wereorca

[fair jungle]

A werebat meeting a Gangrel must feel weird

[velvet sparrow]

WoD or Chronicles

I don't think there are werebats in WoD anymore...

[fair jungle]

WoD
There is, they all fled to hide in Australia

[timber talon]

Weremosquito

[fair jungle]

EL MOSCO

[fair jungle]

You reminded me of the headache DD2 gave me yesterday, god

There IS werespiders tho :3

CW: huge spider

And then two flavours of OwO fox

[grave gulch]

2nd one looks way too happy

[fair jungle]

Happy to be fox

[grave gulch]

I want a fox fueled by RAGE

Happy to be fox Angry at everyone else

[fair jungle]

Then is the first one of the two~!

[fair jungle]

In terms of Balance, is usually the spirit/creature "Power" dice pool a good indicator of it's power?

Like

"ASKLEPIAN SPIRIT
Power: 2–6
Exceptional Dice Pools: Brawl +2, Stealth +2
Notes / Other Traits:
Birthing Bite: In the Umbra, the bite of a Power 2 or
higher Asklepian on the spirit-form of a Garou generates
a full-grown Asklepian that bursts from the spirit-flesh
of the victim after a turn (inflicting a level of Aggravated
damage in the process). The newly generated Asklepian
is one Power level below its parent and joins in the assault
as soon as it bursts free of the victim, starting with the
next turn"

At minimum a power of 2, can it say it would be a 'beginner' creature, something new players could deal with?

This is from Werewolf The Apocalypse 5e

[mighty zephyr]

Is it???

Oh

Yeah so

The power is its general dice pool

While the exceptional is what it's "good" at

[fair jungle]

Yeah, so like
a power 2 Ask spirit to attack would be
Power 2 + Bwral 2 = 4 dices to roll

But I don't know if that would be
TOO strong or... 'just right' for a newbie encounter

[mighty zephyr]

That's a normal person with a little bit of kickboxing training

[grave gulch]

It's wod

Hit them with a truck

[fair jungle]

Based

[fair jungle]

thank!

[fair jungle]

Lift a truck and throw at them , got it

[clear delta]

Kirby and the forgotten land spoilers
||https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PkJWVYGk1Y0||

[fair jungle]

Hey so , mechanic wise
What is stopping a Nosferatu from wearing a huge robe or a Hijab to walk around and not have a masquerade breach?

[spice abyss]

Absolutely nothing.

[fair jungle]

So most of the time is a non issue

[timber talon]

Aside from weirdness of wearing a thick robe at night yeah

[fair jungle]

Fair enough

[heady kestrel]

Nothing, but a lot of the time wearing stuff that completly obscures your appearance draws attention

[fair jungle]

True

[mighty zephyr]

Idea

Nosferatu street biker

https://tenor.com/view/biker-hotline-miami-gif-21120970

[clear delta]

Just peel your outer skin layers, cover up, say you got into an horrible accident

In vtm you can make changes permanent, right?

[velvet sparrow]

Nope

[little light]

Wild answer

[velvet sparrow]

Especially not the Clan Curse

[little light]

Your skin will grow back I’m pretty sure

[velvet sparrow]

^

[clear delta]

You're still ugly tho. Fulfils tge curse

[clear delta]

I see. In vtr, you can force changes to stay

[velvet sparrow]

True, but making changes permanent is a Requiem thing

Yeah, and that sounds pretty rad tbh

[clear delta]

Yes, I was asking if it was the same in masquerade

[velvet sparrow]

There's a few ways around it, Vicissitude and a handful of Thaumaturgy Rituals, but as a Thing you can just Do? Unfortunately not

[versed zodiac]

Vicissitude and other powers can work around it but otherwise you got nothing

your best bet is to just lean into Obfuscate and deal

[clear delta]

Or shave your tumours everytime you wake up

[timber talon]

Canonically tzimisce flesh crafting can (very painfully) make you pass as normal human permanently

Good luck finding a sane and trustworthy tzimisce though

[velvet sparrow]

For a Nosferatu? Not really

[timber talon]

Yeah really

[velvet sparrow]

Unless they are making you look more monstrous, it just "heals" back to how you used to look

[versed zodiac]

it's pretty canon

[timber talon]

Canonical nosferatu

Gets injured, heals back to this form without problem too

Result of ||years of torture and experimentation by Sabbat tzimisce who whimsically decided to see if he can make a nosferatu pass as human||

[velvet sparrow]

From V20

[timber talon]

Definitely a lore thing, not a playable mechanic thing

[velvet sparrow]

Looking through other books will take a bit longer

Tzimisce Revised

[mighty zephyr]

Skill issue I guess.

Since that guy was able to do it.

[versed zodiac]

never EVER explain what "skill issue" means to an elder

[mighty zephyr]

It shall be the last thing they hear as I drink their soul clean from this earth.

[timber talon]

It was apparently some strange mixture of blood sorcery and flesh crafting

That warped all “deformities” away from his face

[velvet sparrow]

All I'm saying is, (and I want to specify that like, I don't mean to come across as argumentative or combatative I kind of don't really care I just enjoy talking about Vampire) it's one guy versus all of the books

[timber talon]

So his neck and bback has extremely gross scar that pulsates

[velvet sparrow]

Yeah that'd do it

[timber talon]

The blood magic equivalent of sweeping shit under a rug

[velvet sparrow]

You say "Blood Sorcery" and my mind immediately goes "Okay this checks out"

(Also, the big grotesque scar probably helps)

[versed zodiac]

a little cheating and a lot of basically 3-cup curse monte

[timber talon]

But yeah definitely a unique case that likely won’t be repeated

[mighty zephyr]

When talking about a TTRPG you specifically can go

"Yeah this is doable so go ahead and do it because the players are inherently the most special little guys and gals around by virtue of being players"

[timber talon]

But lore wise technically possible

Just extremely extremely unlikely to happen

Anyways

From the wording of the clan curse in v5 I think it’s actually possible to have someone who looks normal ish

As long as people think there’s something off with you

[velvet sparrow]

I believe so, and I think that's really cool

[clear delta]

Ooooh. So it's closer to tge requiem version now

Version of tge nosferatu curse

[timber talon]

Yeah it just says nosferatu has trouble disguising themselves as a non deformed mortal

No word on what that deformity has to be

In the above nos case his scar is present no matter what even though he has like five dots in obfuscate and everyone always notices it even though he tries to cover it up

So clan curse still seems to be in effect if only technically

If you squint I think effect similar to nulls in warhammer would also be fine under nos curse

You look normal but everyone finds you kinda repulsive anyways

[velvet sparrow]

You look normal, but everyone knows there's something creepy and off about you anyways would be fun to play around with

[clear delta]

Requiem had example of normal looking nosferatu having a shadow tgat moves on its own. Or a charnel odor.

[timber talon]

Or a nosferatu who looks like a marble statue

Ie uncannily perfect

Honestly I too would freak out if I see someone who looks like a life sized porcelain doll moving around

[queen heron]

Olivia hill rule!

a classic

[velvet sparrow]

:(

[mighty zephyr]

I get freaked out by people who wear those anime masks already so I'd definitely react with horror upon seeing that.

[fair jungle]

"Bro don't be a biggot i was just born a Lepper :("

Then they get cancelled on Twitter and you win, ezz /j

[timber talon]

I wonder if it would be funny to try and distract an egotistical toreador by throwing a shard of mirror at them

So that they can’t help but look at the mirror shard as it sails past to see if their hair is properly in place

There’s a Malkavian char whose clan madness manifests as an ability to divine order from chaos

So they are able to divine meaning from complicated spreadsheets, code, chain of events very quickly

But they are also supernaturally compelled to find order

So if you throw a jar of dried beans at them they are compelled to count how many beans there are in the jar

Which they can do so very quickly but it still does distract them for a bit

[fair jungle]

Yeah in masquerade - swansong there is a pretty unique Malkavian too

Her clan madness is ||that she made a daughter in her mind, for the whole game she acts like is an actual character and you only really discover thatn ear the end||

They even ||lie about her clan too for most of the game to the player||

[fair jungle]

"What is your weakness?"
"Counting 🅱️EANS"

Playing a Malkavian is probably a very hard balance of "Clan madness" and "Being annoying to the group"

[timber talon]

I would personally do something like having an imaginary friend who nevertheless knows things they really shouldn’t

Not too intrusive

[rare swallow]

It definitely requires one to be mature

[timber talon]

And having amusing cyberpunk Johnny silver hand moments

Like role playing my imaginary friend doing something really distracting at otherwise tense moments

Sheriff giving me a briefing

Me: “shut up who told you to talk”

Sheriff: death glare

Me: “sorry sir not you sir.”

[fair jungle]

We all know the True anti-Malkavian solution is a stop sign

[timber talon]

No u stop

[grave gulch]

is there any kind of magic normal folks can learn?

[velvet sparrow]

WoD or Chronicles

[grave gulch]

WoD

[velvet sparrow]

Linear Magic/Hedge Sorcery is a thing that mortals can learn!

[mighty zephyr]

Also humans can get magic from spirits and/or God

[grave gulch]

right!

[mighty zephyr]

Also psychic powers

and cyborg magic

[rare swallow]

If you stretch the definition of normal folks, some humans can also do fairy magic to a limited amount if they have some fairy blood in them from one of their parents

[timber talon]

Can’t you also get experimented on and turned into a tortured psionic

[rare swallow]

You could also join the awesome folks at the Orpheus group and get some ghost powers by being put in cryostasis

[timber talon]

You can also drink vampire blood to use disciplines

[fair jungle]

True Faith is kinda magical

[mighty zephyr]

Also maybe you just vomit up a Thing sometimes that kills people for you

[spice abyss]

Long story short: Splats aren't special.

[queen heron]

actually how does anyone here run Malks

Never been in a game with one, but I heard they cna be finicky to play and gm

[queen heron]

mortal who thinks vampire powers are kinda sick ngl, and there was nothing special about Cain, so is trying to specifically call down a curse from god on themselves

[mighty zephyr]

I have a Malk that I wanna play

And I'd definitely lean on "Actually unwell person"

Probably just use him as an outlet for my own mental illness which I think almost all of my WoD characters end up being

[sacred viper]

Joining the Satanist church and asking for sin-maxxing strats

[queen heron]

real

[orchid void]

Baali embrace in two weeks

[sacred viper]

Yes yeah

[mighty zephyr]

But yeah my Malkavian idea is a guy who was just a normal person before the Embrace but now that Malkav's in his veins he keeps getting so frustrated at how different he is sometimes.

[orchid void]

Petition to rename Baali discipline to Sinmaxxing

[mighty zephyr]

He used to be a carpenter, now he can't even build a bird house without fucking it up. He can play the piano. He couldn't before.

The hammer he used for his passion and hobby is now just an instrument of violence.

He'd still like to help people but he hates everyone and everything and his cycnicsm and optimism aren't coherently divided

[queen heron]

thats a strong angle yeah

[mighty zephyr]

One very vivid scene is that if anyone Embraced a ghoul or human he cared about he'd go absolutely ballistic

And beat the neophyte to death while just going

[crystal fern]

Whether it's technically possible within the rules or not, I feel like the bigger issue with players wanting to play a "normal-looking" nosferatu who is "technically" still under the clan curse is that they've misunderstood the assignment. To me, the point of playing a member of a clan is to engage with and play into their curse, not to sidestep it.

[mighty zephyr]

"YOU WERE BEAUTIFUL BECAUSE YOU WERE TRANSIENT! BECAUSE YOU HAD AN ENDING! I WAS BAD FOR YOU! I WOULD LEAVE AND YOU'D BE BETTER FOR IT! NOW YOU'RE LIKE ME, A MONSTER! FOREVER! I'M! SAVING! YOU!"

[crystal fern]

I know this puts me at odds with a lot of Vampire players I've encountered over the years though

[mighty zephyr]

and then just finding whoever Embraced them and burning their Haven down

[rare swallow]

I actually enjoy playing Nosferatu who are pretty alright with the changes one way or another, like it doesn't bother them or they had low self esteem before and now they're just vibing

Just very 0 fucks to give vibes

The embrace acting like a new clean slate and the possibility to reinvent yourself

[mighty zephyr]

But yeah to me I think Malkavians are very easy to do badly

but very fun and cool if you do them well

[rare swallow]

Oh yeah definitely

[mighty zephyr]

I don't even think you can't play them for comedy, just as long as you keep yourself to the realm of Dark Comedy and adjacent

[fair jungle]

"The Baali recruit vampires from other clans into their ranks; such a successfully recruited vampire is called an Apostate."
Fucking Word Bearers

"Baali Herd from Mexico City by Night"

I didn't knew about those guys
CW: Comic book style gore

[versed zodiac]

the baali are on some shit for real

[fair jungle]

They literally summon demons

But in turn
Get hurt more against True Faith and actually get damaged by holywater, holyground and holy iconography

[upbeat lily]

So the bail are just demons

[fair jungle]

Demon worshippers that tap into demonic Disciplines

[upbeat lily]

That's kinda the same difference when your talking about vampires

[clear delta]

Hmm. What games you can play a robot or doll.
(Cofd) changeling tge lost, demon the descent. Mage tge awakening I think you can do it by legacy, but it feels like there'd issues.
(Owod) Mage the ascension has cyborgs. But I think you suffer paradox, reality would reject your existence, and you can't hide in the umbra anymore.

[fair jungle]

Nono, literally
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Daimonion
Vampire Discipline Daimonion

They can even re-embrace others to become Baal

[rare swallow]

In changeling the dreaming there are some dolls too

Mannikins and Oppidians

The first being a Phyla of Inanimae, the second is a Lycian Guise

[upbeat lily]

How is CtL btw

[grave gulch]

would it be too much to include the evil burger fast food chain in my hunter game? i probably shouldnt but it sounds hilarious

[clear delta]

A game of trauma, beauty and madness

[fair jungle]

Don't forget the

EVIL BEER

[upbeat lily]

What I ment was how it handled those themes because I read it myself... and really didn't like it on that regard

[clear delta]

1e or 2e?

What did you dislike

[fair jungle]

https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/O'Tolley's oh my god

Of course is Pentex

[upbeat lily]

Just the gentry in general for starters

[fair jungle]

"Wage slave, seen through the insight (and/or insane hallucinations) of a Twitcher Ratkin."

[mighty zephyr]

I fucking love CtL

[grave gulch]

EVIL BEER

[mighty zephyr]

I think it's an incredibly fun game that I would love to play more of

[clear delta]

I like casual monsters. Can you hang out with them? Convince tgem to leave pentex?

[upbeat lily]

It's really hard to try and make your story hopeful when you have an invisible endless threat constantly pressuing you, one that is also near completely inhuman and willing to do unspeakable acts apon your form

[fair jungle]

Pentex is werewolf stuff, so if you can talk to spirits and cleanse then, yeah

[valid merlin]

well that is kinda the central conflict of CtL
and also why the Courts exist

[fair jungle]

"The food, especially when adulterated with human meat, also makes customers more susceptible to Wyrm taint and possession."

[clear delta]

They can lose interest, or get caught up in some old pledge they made and you discovered. They'll often stay in arcadia and have minions try to get you

[mighty zephyr]

I mean that's also like

the metaphor

[clear delta]

The huntsmen were introduced as minions

[valid merlin]

your Keeper might also never come for you
but you're gonna have to live with that threat anyway

[upbeat lily]

We'll I unfortunately understand that metaphor rather We'll and I still don't like it

[valid merlin]

it is a very heavy game, for sure

but that's just kinda what it is

[clear delta]

Okay, but keepers aren't the only thing to do a ctl game about

[rare swallow]

I'm personally not a big fan of the abuse survivor angle either because of my real life experience with being an abuse survivor. But like everyone has different stuff that interests them

[upbeat lily]

Isn't that part of the central conflict of a good story in CtL

[clear delta]

Trauma

[valid merlin]

you still got other Hedge stuff too
Changeling politics

[grave gulch]

his name is Todd

[fair jungle]

He will grow up to develop amazing games

[clear delta]

Sometimes you escape the abuser completely. But still gotta rebuild your life, deal with community. Maybe save others

[fair jungle]

And PTSD

[grave gulch]

feels like a better fit for a werewolf game but people who get possessed by the wyrm become monsters too do they not?

[fair jungle]

In heavy cases.
Evil burger let a
smidge
of corruption, slowly corrupting you away and letting the wyrm pester

[upbeat lily]

To he completely honest. The supernatural politics angle never once really interested me all that much

Maybe that's just vampire leaving an impression on the rest of it

But still

[fair jungle]

"The food, especially when adulterated with human meat, also makes customers more susceptible to Wyrm taint and possession.
It sells very slightly "Wyrm-tainted" food products to the population as a whole to make them overweight and lose ambition."

But yes, it originated from a 'adventure starter' werewolf book, the company is owned by Pentex, the 'big bad' of werewolf

[grave gulch]

[fair jungle]

https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/248907/Curse-of-the-OTolleys-Burger

[timber talon]

I know Malkavian whose boon is that they have unerring visions of the future and their bane is that they have unerring visions of the future

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah I'd wanna play a Malkavian with Seer powers

As their version of Auspex

[clear delta]

You need to reintegrate into the world. Maybe help your friends with their lives.
There's also privateers that might want to kidnap people in your area.
Maybe a member of the gentry came just to have a "holiday"
Yeah, think that's all I remember you can do with changeling

[upbeat lily]

Also consider I literally am a changeling irl

[grave gulch]

oh

has anyone here ever played Darkest dungeon?

[upbeat lily]

I have and I thought it was cool

[clear delta]

?

[fair jungle]

Yes!
got a headache because of it last night

[grave gulch]

||ya know how things change a bit after you go into the big bad dungeon for the first time?|| spoilers for darkest dungeon

[upbeat lily]

I'm talking about the tism

[clear delta]

Ah

[fair jungle]

yes

[grave gulch]

thinking i could do something with that idea

[upbeat lily]

That was supposed to be a joke

[grave gulch]

after seeing this

[fair jungle]

oh 100%
Specially for werewolf

[grave gulch]

while under the influence of a certain supernatural they start to see shit

or in the case of werewolf they just see things as they truly are

[fair jungle]

When they go in teh Umbra, yeah, not all the time

CW: Cartoon vomit, excess alcohol consumption ||https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/King_Breweries_and_Distilleries|| Found the Evil beer

[upbeat lily]

This image is physically repulsive to me

[timber talon]

Can there be primogen and Prince of the same clan in the same city

Like if the Prince is ventrue can there also be a ventrue primogen

Or would Prince typically also be the primogen of their clan

[upbeat lily]

On a primal level I mean

[fair jungle]

Spoiled, sorry about that

[grave gulch]

that's probably the idea ...i feel the same way lmao

[upbeat lily]

I was trying to be funny with that but thanks

[grave gulch]

EVIL BEER

[upbeat lily]

Damm near all of the pentex adverts initiate my fight or flight response

[grave gulch]

werwolf detected

[fair jungle]

LOWER THAT GUN, WE NEED THE AWOOS

[timber talon]

No

[fair jungle]

Tho unless it has silver on it
Roll for damage but half it and make it superficial :3

[grave gulch]

Im shooting tiny foxes with silver knives

[fair jungle]

dang

[timber talon]

Werefoxes

[fair jungle]

YES

[timber talon]

With silvered fangs

[fair jungle]

They are called Kitsunes

[fair jungle]

There is a gift to do that
Hurts like hell

[timber talon]

Werewolf safari

[fair jungle]

CW: Repulsive Pentex art
Pentex also makes toys :3

[fair jungle]

SEE
We NEED werewolfs to stop that
Who else you gonna trust ? The Camarilla?

[upbeat lily]

Just cw all of the pentex art for future reference

[fair jungle]

Will do

[upbeat lily]

Outside of the meme alot of it is genuinely repulsive in some way. On purpose of corse but that includes some objectionable stuff

[timber talon]

Climate change is a lie repeated by the new world order to weaken Gaia

[fair jungle]

nono you are right, I shall

[upbeat lily]

👍

Wanted to elaborate why

[patent stirrup]

NWO is a technocracy thign\s so it's less a lie then a truth that was not true before it was said

Charlie! ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696306100715550 message) Climate change is a lie repeated by the new world order to weaken Gaia

[versed zodiac]

man, I always find the Werewolf/Mage point of view on the World of Darkness just a little disheartening

[upbeat lily]

Crossover as always been iffy

WoD5 had the right idea in having a single team of writers... but it's WoD5 and I have my own set of issues with it

[versed zodiac]

they're both just serious enough about being anti-intellectual to cross over from being silly TTRPG worlds to making me go "hmm... don't like that"

[upbeat lily]

(OK what is anti intellectualism)

[versed zodiac]

distrust towards experts/science/educated people

[fair jungle]

The book clearly state that, not every company is evil and bad, some do bad things without wanting, in a passive way
Pentex was created to be the active one V:

[versed zodiac]

and, like, I get that a little anti-intellectual edge is important to the punk thing

that's fine

[upbeat lily]

Is that nessisarly a bad instinct?

[fair jungle]

The book is extremely clear about that

[versed zodiac]

I mean

I am a Master's student so you tell me dog

[upbeat lily]

It isn't

[fair jungle]

cool
Had you read the rulebook?V:

[upbeat lily]

For werewolf or mage

Because yes. And I know both where clear on that

[fair jungle]

Any of the two

[velvet sparrow]

I don't know enough about Werewolf beyond saying it has some bad vibes, Mage I don't think really goes into that? Like, yeah, the Technocracy is the Big Bad, but there's also the Virtual Adepts and the Society of Ether, who are the ideal of Science as a thing to lift people up instead of oppressing them

[patent stirrup]

Eh oWoD mage as we understand it is less anti-intellectual as you put it and more sophistic. you have educated traditions, like the Sons of Eather, Vurtial Adepts, and Order of hermies who are just as right about nayting as each other and the thecnocracy as a whole

Lunatic Blue ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696306100715550 message) distrust towards experts/science/educated people

[rare swallow]

The thing is that the technocracy is definitely more than "science bad", it's also a front for colonialism and the erasure of local customs and beliefs

[fair jungle]

If anything, is the search for actual science nad education and a huge warning against "Blindly beliving what you see on TV and the Cellphone"

[patent stirrup]

Also what they did in the mid 30's to the erlay 40's

Júlia (They/Them) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696306100715550 message) The thing is that the technocracy is definitely more than "science bad", it's also a front for colon…

[velvet sparrow]

It's the "science" used by people to justify why slavery should exist, it's Big Brother and a disregard for human life for a broad "Humanity" buzzword

And that is something that's bad, and should be distrusted and fought against

[rare swallow]

Yeah

[fair jungle]

Exactly

[upbeat lily]

https://tenor.com/view/warhammer-40k-astartes-turn-astartes-turn-warhammer-40k-space-marine-warhammer-40k-astartes-space-marine-turn-gif-15925912834426228665

[fair jungle]

Hell, as a werewolf you can and SHOULD use technology, it is in the book how that is one of the flaw of the classic werewolf groups

"While the werewolf fought the same way for thousands of years, the Wyrm has evolved, adapted"

[velvet sparrow]

?

[upbeat lily]

That last sentence also describes the imperium of man

[velvet sparrow]

Ah

Yeah, and it's part of why the Imperium is so bad!

[upbeat lily]

My point

[versed zodiac]

Well, so, my understanding about how Consensus works is also that science is, in fact, big fucking jokes because it only works because everyone agrees it works to begin with

[patent stirrup]

Yes, however that true for everything in mage

[versed zodiac]

Yes, everyone is equally wrong because reality is essentially a null premise that you can extrapolate any conclusion from

[fair jungle]

Is less "Physhics classes are wrong and trying to manipulate you" and more
"So, space itself
Is a lie"

[mighty zephyr]

W5 definitely doesn't have a distaste for intellectualism at least

[rare swallow]

Basically in mage the difference between a cellphone and a crystal ball that allows you long distance communication is consensus

[fair jungle]

W5 actively take jabs on past werewolfs that chunned technology blindly :V

[mighty zephyr]

Red Talons are still playable and can't use human technology though

[upbeat lily]

W5 as it's own issues still

Same with WoD5 in general

[mighty zephyr]

everything has issues in wod yes

[patent stirrup]

you can draw any conclusion you want from anything, I don't think that being easyer for one peice of media make sit more of any one thign g other then in the case of mage the solpisistic nature of the setting

Lunatic Blue ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696306100715550 message) Yes, everyone is equally wrong because reality is essentially a null premise that you can extrapolat…

[rare swallow]

WoD is about sifting through the issues tbh

The WoD experience

[upbeat lily]

That's probably why I seem to have a love hate relationship with it

[velvet sparrow]

Are the Red Talons still like, hardcore wolf supremacists in W5?

[patent stirrup]

picking a WoD game to play is picking wich ishues your table likes and wich ones it' can ignore

[versed zodiac]

I mean, I was speaking pretty specifically to exactly the solipsistic nature of the setting, yes

[mighty zephyr]

No

They have above-average Lupus-born but homids are just as welcome

They will, if needed, cull the population of any species that grows too rampant, including humans

So they're still pretty murderous

[versed zodiac]

That's what I mean when I say that the reality of Mage is a null premise, any statement is equally true in the sense that if the Sleepers believe it the world will reflect it

[upbeat lily]

You could also make your own wod game. With blackjack and 40k power scaling

[mighty zephyr]

The weird thing about Consensus to me is that there's no way to change it

mechanically

[fair jungle]

in W5 they are described as 'justice seekers'
Hold on-
"Persue Justice as all costs"

[grave gulch]

who?

[fair jungle]

Black Furies

[timber talon]

Consensus thing is weird

[fair jungle]

red Talons are : serve untamed nature with fang and claw

[patent stirrup]

From our experince wiht oWoD "it just changes" as ST feit works but like that's how most of oWoD mage works

Voy the Nelson Boy ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696306100715550 message) The weird thing about Consensus to me is that there's no way to change it

[timber talon]

Most people don’t think vampires are real

Why are vampires real

[fair jungle]

Because it has been accepted by the wide consensus

[versed zodiac]

quintessence in their blood dontcha know

[fair jungle]

That's why Linear magic is ok
Mage bullshitery is not

[grave gulch]

im a mage who gives people kidney stones

Im evil

[upbeat lily]

It's a narrative device designed to explain why the Mage world isn't completely incomprehensible to our own

[fair jungle]

And to stop everyone from solving their problems with fireball all the time

[patent stirrup]

Also oWoD had that whole shattered cosmology whare everything was true espicaly the contradictory stuff, like Vampires both being a weird bality twisted red cap, and being decened form the bibilcal cain

[timber talon]

I’ll wear a red cap

[fair jungle]

I WILL awoo

[upbeat lily]

That's what happens when you have multiple teams of writers who hate each other's guts

[mighty zephyr]

I know

[fair jungle]

Modern DC comics?

[upbeat lily]

Modern comics*

[velvet sparrow]

Also I've heard the different WoD lines just kind of weren't ever really meant to be one big connected thing?

[mighty zephyr]

But I'm saying that the game "being about this thing" but also you mechanically cannot meaningfully interact with this thing

is weird and strange

[fair jungle]

Somewhat
Not that deeply without a lot of headache

[versed zodiac]

D&D but you cannot enter the dungeons or seduce fight the dragons

[velvet sparrow]

And that they only were to the degree that they were because of executive meddling

[fair jungle]

I mean
You can

[patent stirrup]

AS we understand it that was the case for CoD, but not oWoD

Katherine, Serpente Princess ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696306100715550 message) Also I've heard the different WoD lines just kind of weren't ever really meant to be one big conne…

Or well nWoD

[upbeat lily]

WW also hates bards?

Critical support for WW

[rare swallow]

Honestly the way I see it in oWoD it's meant to be up to the ST and the chronicle how other Splats Interact with the game you are currently playing

[mighty zephyr]

But yea I think if/when they do Mage 5

They must needs address the inherent conservatism of the traditions

[fair jungle]

Yeah in W5 they where extremely aware of that
If you want I can grab the page for it

[upbeat lily]

I think mage 5 is when I'm going to start drinking /j

[mighty zephyr]

Yohan friend I don't wanna pause the conversation to call you out or anything, but I think you might not just like this stuff

[versed zodiac]

Why the hatred for WoD5

[mighty zephyr]

You seem very put upon it

[upbeat lily]

Put upon meaning?

[upbeat lily]

I really do not like the direction it goes in

[versed zodiac]

What direction would that be

[mighty zephyr]

You seem to have an inherent dislike for it

[upbeat lily]

The whole emphasis on basically enforcing street level play and (especially in vampire) basically taking control away from the player on a bad role for the sake of "drama"

If that makes any sense

[fair jungle]

I never played any WoD so idk
Can you exemplify?

[versed zodiac]

It does, from my experience so far with V5e

I've been adjusting how I rule around the Messy Critical / Bestial Failure system

although I actually do like messy criticals, a lot

they're good

[fair jungle]

Yeah at least for awoo5 a bestial failure is you not being able to deal with the beast and going berserk
Since is always the risk of the Garou

[versed zodiac]

leaning on the player with "you're a vampire, please do something vampirey" is nice

[bright cairn]

Hmm, my only WoD5 experience is with hunter which is probably the least street level hunter has ever been with hunters being more organized than ever.

[upbeat lily]

I really wish they just returned to the imbued instead

[patent stirrup]

also going beserk in as a werewolf in oWoD was not that rare of a thing if you had any real amount of rage

[rare swallow]

I personally am a fan of the curse of being a vampire being a bit more imposed. I've been in so many games where frenzies barely ever happen or people barely ever roleplay the aspect of having the beast and being basically always hungry

[bright cairn]

I kinda dig being normal dudes with maybe a little sorcery just absolutely underdogging the horrors of the night

[rare swallow]

It being more represented in rules and mechanics is good to me imo

[upbeat lily]

It could have been a really interesting thing to explore the consequences of that kind of power on one's mind

[fair jungle]

The Tremere pyramid got fucked in 5 so I am happy :3

Kevin would be happy too...

[bright cairn]

I played a decent bit of werewolf 20 and it could get pretty brutal with rage buildup

[upbeat lily]

I really do not want to see this happen to mage. My actual favorite Game-line in part because of its magic system and the level of power one could reach

[mighty zephyr]

I really want it to happen to Mage because I find Mage's power level to be a not actually that fun design space for a TTRPG

Especially one that is meant to somehow be in the same setting as, say, Vampire

[upbeat lily]

I choose to disregard the idea of shared continuity

[mighty zephyr]

I cannot because most of the Mage community is built around saying that they are the best splat

[patent stirrup]

that dose not change that the worlds of darkness are built on it

[bright cairn]

Mage does seem a bit too esoteric to get players into. don't get me wrong having that high concept play available is fine but the option to just start out as some street level awakened trying not to blow yourselves up sounds like a better onboarding experience

[mighty zephyr]

The eschelons of power a Mage can get is extremely difficult to write around without getting very high concept and it puts a lot of modus on the GM to keep any sense of dramatic tension

or just a continious eroding of the rules until you're basically just rolling spells only

[midnight grotto]

We're talking about a hypothetical Ascension 5, right?

[upbeat lily]

Yes

[mighty zephyr]

Yea

Talking about Mage summoned Genome

[midnight grotto]

Okay

[mighty zephyr]

Proving my hypothesis that they work on Beetlejuice rules

[bright cairn]

A friend described running mage as needing a separate ST for every couple of players just to keep all the bullshit managed

[versed zodiac]

isn't Mage primarily a TTRPG about having prolonged arguments with the ST about why you should be able to do whatever you want

[midnight grotto]

Also I can back up that other people share Yohan's 5E gripes

I have a friend who writes for WW and he has a lot of complicated feelings about the system(s)

[bright cairn]

Mage: The Debate Club is a joke I've heard before

[mighty zephyr]

I know people share Yohan's 5e gripes but also I think that like

It's a good change

Because I like WoD as a horror setting more than an urban fantasy one.

[queen heron]

hmmm

world maybe yeah

CofD I wouldn't call horror alone though

[midnight grotto]

I think that 5E marketed itself as "fuck yeah the REAL World of Darkness is back!" and then wound up stealing a bunch from Chronicles

[upbeat lily]

I do not really think Horror can work in a ttrpg with out getting existential

[mighty zephyr]

Horror can 100% work in a TTRPG without getting existential

[fair jungle]

Ask him about the evil beer

[mighty zephyr]

I scared my players with just the phrase "You're not alone in your own body"

[midnight grotto]

It's simultaneously frustrating and vindicating that those EuroLARP elitists made such a big show of being the superior brand and went craaawwwling back

[patent stirrup]

Hell there is an old AD&D module that's just Alien but with Slaad and in a in deep in the mountians and it works wornders

[queen heron]

I do think CofD mage as written is not great for street level stuff, no

[fair jungle]

can you elaborate a bit?

[upbeat lily]

Because you can't scare the audience if they're in a table. And it's really hard to build dread or tention when the players are more busy with silly comedy higinks

[midnight grotto]

The funny thing is I always heard World talked about as more high-powered action time

[patent stirrup]

That sounds more like a table problem then anything else

[mighty zephyr]

That sounds like a your table thing ya

My players love the dread and tension

[versed zodiac]

yeah I got nothing, horror RPGs are a whole genre even

[fair jungle]

Counter argument:
Me, GM: "You are 100% ok with your character dying right?"
Player" yeah absolutely"
Me: "Ok roll against petrification"
Player: Starts to get anxious and hyperventilate

[upbeat lily]

That's panic

[queen heron]

it might be!
I guess it depends on what brand of horror.
like Requiem is much more concerned with the melodrama of being a vampire, instead of getting shanked in some big blood war

and the melodrama can be horrifying

[upbeat lily]

Its very different from what I was talking about earlier

[fair jungle]

And is all about tone, if you build the session with high stakes, the players needing to be careful , yes you can scare them

[mighty zephyr]

You know how it fucked it was for me to learn that most people who say that Ascension Mages Are Stronger never read Awakening 2e and then I find out that Mage the Ascension Mages need like 800 things to even cast spells and can't just

Do It

[midnight grotto]

I have probably written checks my ass cannot cash, tbh. The biggest example I can point to is Hunter 5E totally ditching the weird supernatural calling part and adopting a much more Vigil paradigm

[fair jungle]

I have no idea what those two last things meant, sorry

[queen heron]

or how 2e really pushed back on multiple-dot requirements for spells

[midnight grotto]

Someone else can explain it better probably

[queen heron]

you dont need Prime and Correspondance and Matter and-

[fair jungle]

Also fucking
Brazillian TTPRPG: Paranormal
The Game creator and game master absolutely make his players shit their pants

But yes, is harder

not impossible

[queen heron]

Hunter 5e's flavor was heavily inspired by how popular Vigil was

[upbeat lily]

And not really worth it in my eyes

Tbfh

[queen heron]

and how the original hunter's 'kinda-maybe Exalts' wasn't as well recieved

tbh

thats a good thing

[midnight grotto]

Hunter the Calling used to be about Joan of Arc weirdos whereas Hunter the Vigil was more origin-neutral, then the new edition of the former is closer to the latter

[queen heron]

except the brand really pushed this part

which is a little annoying

[mighty zephyr]

Hunter the Reckoning

not Hunter the Calling

[fair jungle]

Thank youU!

[midnight grotto]

I knew it was something else

Got it mixed up with Parenting

[grave gulch]

Voy i'll steal your helmet

[mighty zephyr]

can't

that's my head

But yeah for the most part WoD 5 has gone with a lot of the tones and themes that CofD's versions of them did

[grave gulch]

[upbeat lily]

I'm taking it anyway

[mighty zephyr]

The idea of past history being a myth, the focus on personal horror, lower-stakes and local politics being paramount, and the idea that your chosen sub-splat does not dictate literally everything about your character

also no metaplot!

Fuck the metaplot!

[upbeat lily]

On this we can agree

[fair jungle]

what's the metaplot

[midnight grotto]

The meanest way I can put it is that WoD5 is MCU Peter Parker and CofD is Miles Morales

[upbeat lily]

Worthless

[versed zodiac]

I have mixed feelings on the Metaplot

[versed zodiac]

the metaplot is the idea that there's an overarching story significant to all of [splat]kind in the background that develops with or without your characters

[upbeat lily]

Because WW wanted to make a story and failed to realize no one actually cares about pre-written TTRPG plots

[fair jungle]

oooooh

[versed zodiac]

the best thing a metaplot can do is provide a background for stories to happen in

[midnight grotto]

What you don't love SAM HEIGHT, THE ULTIMATE BADASS

[versed zodiac]

the worst thing it can do is try to be, like, a plot.

[fair jungle]

yeah that sounds
Anti-TTRPG

[upbeat lily]

My point

It's the same with giving pre made characters

[mighty zephyr]

The 90s loved it

[patent stirrup]

Metaplots were a big thing and preaty common in the 90's

[mighty zephyr]

And people continue to bemoan it's loss despite literally no RPG doing it since the 90s because it turned out it did nothing for the actual RPGs

[versed zodiac]

metaplots suuuuuck by and large

[patent stirrup]

Hell FASA used to use turnament and con games to dertermin how there game's meta plot went, and that is part of why Big D got his ass killed

[upbeat lily]

Big D?

[velvet sparrow]

FASA?

[versed zodiac]

sometimes they bring something to the table by creating a larger scale framing for stories to happen in

[versed zodiac]

Dunkelzahn

from Shadowrun

[upbeat lily]

Oh

Shadowrun

[mighty zephyr]

I was, ironically, also confused

[velvet sparrow]

Metaplots can have their place, I think WoD's was kind of... Bad

[fair jungle]

I hear Shadowrun rules sucks balls but lore is fun

[upbeat lily]

Same

[versed zodiac]

Shadowrun lore also sucks balls tbh

[upbeat lily]

That's literally true

[queen heron]

metaplot just gets lost in the weeds

[fair jungle]

dang

[mighty zephyr]

I think metaplots are fun for competitive games but not TTRPGs

[versed zodiac]

but it sucks in an entertaining way

[mighty zephyr]

I don't begrudge Warhammer having a meta plot

[upbeat lily]

Don't touch anything past 4e

[queen heron]

its something that gets in the way of the questions the game should be asking

[patent stirrup]

Yeah FASA did the same sort of meta plot progression for BT with SR and yeah it works a lot better for wargames

[velvet sparrow]

WoD's metaplot was really into "Look at these cool NPCs being better than you!!" From what I know

[fair jungle]

warhammer is not a TTPRPG as the main product at least

[queen heron]

"hey I want to play X type of guy"
"heres a history lesson"

not great

[fair jungle]

sounds painful
At least Cyberpunk RED has fun rules

[versed zodiac]

ignore wod metaplots

[upbeat lily]

Warhammer is a table top wargame

[queen heron]

it also does the opposite of what I prefer in settings - makes them too explained instead of opening strange exceptions and loopholes to poke at

[versed zodiac]

V5e's development of the metaplot by throwing out all the bullshit, ousting the named characters and history lessons, and saying "listen the old crusty vampires all went to war" is good

[mighty zephyr]

this is why I said this

AND

[mighty zephyr]

This

[queen heron]

everything becomes a fact instead of a plot thread

yeah thats fair

[fair jungle]

I still laugh how in V5e the Tremere Pyramid got fucked

[upbeat lily]

Agreed

[versed zodiac]

it's good! fuck the Pyramid

[fair jungle]

YES
HAH
Fuck you Regent

[queen heron]

what do you call the Werewolf the Forsaken lore if not metaplot though

[versed zodiac]

it's not a good thing to shackle a character option to the implication of some labyrinthine bullshit organization that becomes a tumor for a lot of stories you want to tell

[midnight grotto]

It also says the most important event in recent vampire history is 9/11

[queen heron]

the whole Father Wolf and Luna and all that

because I think that stuff worked pretty well

[velvet sparrow]

Lore? Setting?

[midnight grotto]

Yeah that's just setting, it's not developing between publications

[versed zodiac]

aye that stuff isn't metaplot it's setting

[queen heron]

establishing info, maybe

[mighty zephyr]

Metaplot in Werewolf the Forsaken is the Cull and the Eaters of the Dead

But they aren't like

"Here's Jackson Dickswinger and what he did that you can't do now"

[fair jungle]

Metaplot in Werewolf the Apocalypse
"Environment is getting fucked harder than last edition"

[mighty zephyr]

There's certain throughlines but they are plot hooks versus factual statements

[fair jungle]

agreed

[upbeat lily]

To answer this, i do actually like it on some level. I like mage alot and I think the lore is rather cool sometimes. And the storyteller system is cool when it's explained in a coherent maner

I just don't like the direction it's taken in

If that makes sense

[fair jungle]

Maybe you wanted the thing to evolve in a way and it didn't it?

While the idea itself sounded better than the actual implementation

[upbeat lily]

Yeah

Walst not being horribly obtuse and reliant on long winded lore dumps

My brain doesn't like those

[fair jungle]

Honestly if you are a player it can be furn to slowly learn that
Like how Vampire Bloodlines Masquerade does it

Hell even Hunter the Parenting does it well

[upbeat lily]

Hunter the reckoning

[fair jungle]

No need for big D to stop and for 20 minutes go "So here are ALL the vampire clans"

No, Hunter the Parenting, the fan animated series

[upbeat lily]

I hope bloodlines 2 is good

[fair jungle]

god, same

I really fucking hope it too

[upbeat lily]

The curse permeates all though

[fair jungle]

dang

[queen heron]

I have a friend who thinks if someone asks you about Mage (chronicles) and you start with "The Exarchs-" you've already lost

or if someone is interested in Exalted and you start talking about ancient wars and Named Gods

[orchid void]

I totally getcha!! the only time I think I "avoided" the curse with a "handsome" nosfteratu I still like

made his tongue to long

had him lick his eyelids clean

patches of scales at his wrists where the makeup got rubbed off

these kinds of things

Its a horror game so you still have to be a Freak About It

[clear delta]

Looking at owod correspondence was painful

[clear delta]

Oh, didn't know tgat one

[clear delta]

Well there's destroyer wolf going to the middle east after remembering it had a twin

[crystal fern]

wonderfully creepy :3

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah that ties into the Eater of the Dead a bit

The whole plotline of Creator Wolf

[clear delta]

Oh, man. Cxaxa is so metal.

Over her reign, Qherephis became more and more extreme and her Ruin fortress developed into a Pandemonic Verge. Her army enslaved whole tribes and dragged them to the shifting labyrinth of the mad queen, fuel for the mass human sacrifices needed to gather enough Mana to feed her legion of demons.

[grave gulch]

Do we have examples of wyrm creatures?

[versed zodiac]

Look up Fomori on the WW wiki

[grave gulch]

Thanks

[versed zodiac]

I'd explain but there's a lot

easier to just read it yourself

[grave gulch]

since i like running hunter i like to check out the kind of monsters other splats fight

Sometimes i steal stuff

I also like the abyss creatures from Chronicles mages

[versed zodiac]

I mean

you can should and must have a tense hunter-supernatural teamup

nothing keeps the players on their toes like having to play nice with the Anarch licks because they have a common enemy in the Sabbat cell that's trying to pass through

[grave gulch]

i have a friendly Salubri vamp that will play that role for the hunters

[clear delta]

I love the void leviathans from forsaken, but street level hunters would be so fucked against them

[grave gulch]

I meant more the lil brain thingies

And i also adapt them so they fit my game a lil better

What do the void leviathans look like?

[clear delta]

Flesh and spirit monsters that look like sea life. They're giant monsters that collide with the Earth, dying and dissolving into a fluid tgat seeps into the earth.

As they get close, words in the spirit tongue that are close to some concept may become painful to say.
Sky-breaker is a void leviathan that messes with words relating to sky

The leviathans carry a bunch of void spirits with them

Werewolves must go help the moon spirits (who repel incursions into the earth) fight and kill the monsters before collision. The space fish is pretty much a big boss stage filled with void spirit enemies.

Oh, collisions also have effects like madness or dislodging souls. The void leviathan corpses that fused to the earth may be causing seismic events and opening passages in the crust for void reavers (werewolves made into suits for void spirits)

Voy on void leviathans
#tabletop-discussion message

[grave gulch]

wereshark figting void leviathans!

Weresharks

[clear delta]

JOIN THE LEGIONS OF THE MOON AS BLADES OF SILVER ILLUMINATE THE NIGHT SKY
PARA-DROP ONTO A WHALE THE SIZE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE
A WRITHING GOD DESCENDS FROM ON HIGH, IT BELLOWS IT'S SWAN SONG WITH THE CHOIR OF A MILLION EMPTY VOICES
RIP IT'S HEART FROM IT

[remote tulip]

so what shenanagains can i get up to with life 2, forces 2 and spirit 3?

and prime 3

[clear delta]

As always. Which version mage?

[remote tulip]

pretty loose 20th aniversary

[clear delta]

Lil brain?
Oooh. I never told you of the Promethean villain who's a carnivorous brain going around in a truck filled with educational cds. And wants to build a perfect, shredded body for itself

[grave gulch]

That sounds like something a hunter cell could try to handle

Giv me details

[clear delta]

Coeus is a pandoran, a failed attempt at creating life by alchemy. Its a being of hunger, and while smart, rather weak. It can take over bodies, but they die over time. It kidnaps people to use in experiments or as hpstages to get cooperation from prometheans. It may also trade its alchemical knowledge for educational DVDs and science textbooks.

It believes that, like prometheans, it's meant for a Great Work of self transformation. It believes it's a superior being meant to become a god. Rather than just turning into a human like prometheans do
It seeks to build a perfect, lasting body as part of its quest, and reacts aggressively to comments about its weakness

[clear delta]

Oh, it also fakes an accent to sound sophisticated, and loses it when angry

[grave gulch]

Man

While still something that i would prefer not to engage with

It's more weird than it is scary

@keen furnace did i english that correclty?

[versed zodiac]

you did

[grave gulch]

yay

[clear delta]

There are also the zeky. People created from corpses and nuclear power

[fair jungle]

Opens the book
Want the pages?

[grave gulch]

Give

[fair jungle]

Now if you want the content of the pages I-
Don't know if I can share straight up whole pages in here
DM me

[fair jungle]

Skinbind lets me hide an object as a tattoo to me
Time to jam a fucking LAPTOP to my chest

[clear delta]

Extrude gun

[fair jungle]

oh god

[clear delta]

I'm wondering about an equivalent of Cxaxa's minotaur for each mage path.
As in, horrible supernal being sealed away somewhere, who warped the area.

Guess for moros, it'd make the the walls pretty much unbreachable, and light and sound wouldn't travel far. Objects being stable or decaying and volatile, the past playing out in some places

Some reaper like creature, and/or a burrowing monster of metal, gemstones, bone or some other material

[orchid void]

Hermes Trismagistus (Abyssal) maybe

[clear delta]

Oh god. Ancient sumerian rank 6+ abyssal in a temple verge

Worst case scenario

[patent talon]

Acanthus minotaur would also be fucking terrifying

I'm imagining like something that directly fucks with your fate, everything you do leads you deeper into it's lair, every decision you make it the wrong one

[clear delta]

Yeah, it would suck so much to fight

Also, there's an online supernal being generatorm what the fuck are minor trials?

Goetic soectre
Apearrance: Raven pecking at gore
Aspect/manner/dress: speaks telepathicalky, projects emotions
Major trial: Find a Stygian-aligned Verge
Minor trial 1: Plunge a street into darkness
Minor trial 2: Share a hidden secret
Boon: Causes the summoner to lose a songle obsession

Oooh, a spider made of human bones is cool.

[patent talon]

I think the trials are what it asks from you to receive it's boon

[clear delta]

Ooh I get. The major and minor trials are for what rank it is

Major trial is for rank 3+

Rank 2- you pick one of the minor ones

[patent talon]

Sometimes you gotta literally wrestle an angel

[clear delta]

I know what trials are, Deimos. I was confused about there being multiple ones, minor or major

[patent talon]

My bad!

[clear delta]

Is okay.
Anyway, the link.
https://bobcarbon.github.io/cod-supernal-gen/

[grave gulch]

imma offer to do a werewolf's nails, then it will surely spare me, unless it doesnt like the results...in that case i'll surely perish

[little light]

depends on how destructive to the enviroment that nailpolish is!

[grave gulch]

fuck

[mighty zephyr]

The Jupiter-Claimed dropped the line I've been waiting to use

for ages

"The moon wasn't always there y'know"

and one of the players called it out as a good line

and I feel very vindicated and cool and good

[orchid void]

fuck yes yes

[mighty zephyr]

called it "an excellent piece of microfiction"

[patent talon]

That rules

[heady kestrel]

So I know what happens with demons but wtf happens if an angel has a kid with a mortal or a demon

can we have the sad and gay half demon half angel half human

[clear delta]

I don't think dtd angels are solid enough to have kids

Though they do have covers, hmm

[timber talon]

Is nephilim a thing

[clear delta]

In cofd, there are demon-human children. Either the members of the lucifuge (hunter the vigil), or the children of the unchained (demon the descent), the latter divided in multiple types

[mighty zephyr]

Well the Lucifuge are the children of the actual devil

Like they are the 666 biological children of old scratch

[heady kestrel]

yeah exactly

if an angel "has kids" with someone due to that being how their cover escalaes, or even an exile just doing that themselves what happens

for traditonal angels that might be a good time to bring out the Simulacrums

[clear delta]

Aren't they descendants? And thought there were others, who fell to darkness.

Lady lucifuge got to keep custody, haha

[spice abyss]

The Lucifuge are not necessarily from Lucifer himself, but they are infernally descended.

There's also others out there, beyond the Lucifuge.

[grave gulch]

yall know any cryptids or urban legends of creatures that make u sick?

[spice abyss]

Mothman

[orchid void]

Yeah, Mothman gives you pinkeye

Most UFO encounters involve signs of radiation sickness

[clear delta]

Oooh, thought you meant disgusting

[patent talon]

Top 10 Cryptids That Make You HURL

[clear delta]

#1: yo mama

[clear delta]

Mind moros.
Forging demons into weapons. Literally proccessing feelings. Engineering dreams

[versed zodiac]

turning a demon into an axe and creating Flament Nagel

[clear delta]

A violence goetia that gains a dull personality?

[clear delta]

Full I meant!

Fuck

[queen heron]

Theres also the Satan at the top of the Inferno

who might be the same one?

[mighty zephyr]

There's a lot of Satan's

[queen heron]

Each lucifuge is descended from a different one

every devil is personalized

[fair jungle]

Screw mothman
Use Headless mule
Bleed blood by day
Firehead by night

[clear delta]

Oooh

Boitatá

[fair jungle]

Boitatá would also be a good ally if you are a werewolf tbh

Saci is a fucking ASSHOLE , stay the FUCK AWAY FROM HIM
Fucking FAE

[versed zodiac]

oh wait

Nuckelavee

that's a monster/cryptid that makes you sick

[fair jungle]

Longarms looking ass

[clear delta]

Boto rosa as that annoying guy

[fair jungle]

He T-poses straight into you

[fair jungle]

Boto Rosa would be a great mystery cryptid

I remember there is also another br myth where is a guy that becomes a huge ass snake monster thing at every last day of the month, and to 'cure' him you need to give him 3 drops of goat milk after knocking him out

Or else he will kill people

[versed zodiac]

prince lindworm ass cryptid

[clear delta]

Could be a spirit taking human form, a fae, or shifter

[fair jungle]

oh Saci is 100% fae

[fair jungle]

I remmeber seeing that in a old Brazillian TV show in a public TV channel called TV Cultura
Lots of cool cryptids there

As well basic ones
"So, you are a GIGANTIC asshole?"
"Ye"
"Ok you fish now LOL"
And then he became fish,
The End 🙂

[versed zodiac]

I'm just a monsters enjoyer

[clear delta]

Mapinguari is cool

[fair jungle]

https://mythus.fandom.com/wiki/Pirarucu it's basically the TL;DR; of this

FISH-BOY

[mighty zephyr]

https://youtu.be/1JQpE7n6eUk?si=XhQmH6zH2buo9DQ4

[digital siren]

suddenly question with no context

can a ghoul be exploded on command by their vampire master?

[little light]

is this H:TP related lol

[digital siren]

Im allowed to not answer that

but yes

[clear delta]

I bet it's tremere or tzimisce antics

[digital siren]

I mean we have confirmation the one managing is a tremere

[fair jungle]

My bet is Spit being used as an extension to the Regent's range

[digital siren]

They just threw a april fools video if you didnt saw it

[fair jungle]

Exactly because of that

And the description was that was spit's tesmimony basically
So he could be unaware of even being a ghoul

or that being a thing

[midnight grotto]

this all sounds pretty spoilery

[clear delta]

Reminder: you can get an UFO vehicle in the astral realms

[queen heron]

I think it was probably a shitpost ngl

I wouldn't make any theories based on the description of an aprils fools video

but like

maybe!

[upbeat lily]

Centur 096

[twin mural]

MtAw 2e question: If I got a bunch of rice, use Matter to make it liquid, drink the rice - when is it safe to drop the spell?

[fair jungle]

"Bro
no
Listem bro, that was just Jeff Creepypasta n79
Nha brah it was just a prank"

Your job literally being gaslight society with creepypasta so you hunter fun group can go hunting

[orchid void]

idk talk to your st

[queen heron]

depends on imago probably

[orchid void]

And Duration you spend on reach I guess?

Set up fate triggers for fun n prophet

[queen heron]

I think I’d probably run it mostly as “pretty fine basically as soon as you drink it”

just because it’d be something I’d gloss over

unless its super plot relevant

Its like if you turn someone into fog or water and then use a fan / mixer

they arent automatically assumed to be puréed

when they turn back

[twin mural]

It's not that plot relevant, I'm the st and I want a npc mage to offer it, so it's more to characterize the npc

[orchid void]

Ah then do whatever’s coolest

[queen heron]

yeah, I’d just have it be their spell is designed to end safely then

[twin mural]

Hm, yeah, maybe he adds a bit of life to the spell to make it palatable. Just doing whatever coolest is an option, but with Mage I feel like it's a weak explanation. Players could do the same after all

[queen heron]

Wouldnt even need the life imo

The symbolism is the spell, could always be something like making the rice liquid without affecting its edibility

its not any weirder than doing Matter’s phase changes without temp changes

[orchid void]

Since temperatures is Forces

[queen heron]

yeah

you can make liquid iron at room temp

or “solid water” thats not ice

or maybe even ice thats warm?

its weird!

its magic

[twin mural]

Using Matter on Water to make it solid would not freeze it, because freezing is the temperature change and that is exempt. Definitely weird yeah

But that's kind of why I want the NPC to do this, to get the players thinking about some maybe rather mundane stuff that ends up being really weird

[somber scarab]

Unless you got weird and wound up making lukewarm ice

[clear delta]

I mean, just moving matter is exerting kinetic force

Chemical reactions are endothermic or exothermic

[barren vortex]

a virus is not a thing that is alive, and yet making one out of matter would be a life thing. magic is more vibes-based categorization than anything law-based imo

[clear delta]

I get tgat, say, protecting yourself from a materials traits and temperature requires matter and forces

I just think that not being able turn water into ice feels weird

Wait, let me check the matter spells

State change

With matter 3

[barren vortex]

solid water would be ice, it just wouldn't be cold

[clear delta]

Change between solid, liquid, gas. No temperature change

Alright then

[timber talon]

Weird ice that stays ice at room temperature

[clear delta]

Any of you all ever messed around with the environment of an astral realm?

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah

During my Mage game we went all the way to the Aeons

[clear delta]

Oh, cool. What did you do? Did you remodel some realm?

[fair jungle]

In-Lore, has a cell of the Camarilla ever allied with the Sabatt? Even if for a bit

[timber talon]

None that I recall

Unless I guess you count lasombras being welcomed back into camarilla?

That’s when the SI basically killed most of them and their leadership decided to defect from the Sabbat and flee to cammie protection

Price of admittance for each lasombra is death of another Sabbat member though

[queen heron]

Or its law based in a way that overrides other understanding

maybe what makes something fall under Life is more than mere genetics

With spirits and resonance and Supernal Entities, you could even say everythings alive

and some of its even Life

a-beats probably let you tell the difference

[mighty zephyr]

We just kinda traveled through it and made it easier to do so

Reshaped it for transit

[patent stirrup]

They will call a ceasefire to beat up on the Baalii but like that's more of an emgancy thing

Mizu Blackriver ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696306100715550 message) In-Lore, has a cell of the Camarilla ever allied with the Sabatt? Even if for a bit

[mighty zephyr]

I mean if you're going as individual as a coterie to coterie level 100%

[timber talon]

Why do everyone hate the infernalists so much

Do they have a known history of being utterly disastrous

[velvet sparrow]

The Baali in particular are actively working to bring about the end of the world, I believe

[timber talon]

Yeah but

Can they actually do that

[velvet sparrow]

Who knows

[timber talon]

Like why do cammies and Sabbat go out of their way to beat up the Baali as opposed to any other doomsday cultists of the week

[velvet sparrow]

Maybe? A lot of, if not all of them have a track record of being a big threat to other Vampires, either bringing heat on them or just flat out killing them for one reason or another. Combine that with them having the power to do so by being Infernalists, and probably a decent amount of some sense of "We're Damned but at least we're not Devil-worshippers"

[clear delta]

Infernalists are generally reviled in owod

Only tge playable demons from demon the fallen are good

[patent stirrup]

Yes they can, like at one point there hiest level of there special disaplen was "end the world (as a plot device)

Charlie! ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696306100715550 message) Can they actually do that

[fair jungle]

Sorry the very late reply
And fair!
I was thinking about doing a World of Darkness setting in Brazil during the dictatorship and me and my sister brainsotrmed some things , so I wanted to check if it would be viable and lore friendly

Of course, that Dictatorship secret Camarilla cell inside the army would be shunned by every other international Camarilla for getting close with the Sabbat, so much so they would all be purged post-dictatorship.

[fair jungle]

yes

https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Daimonion with a impossible 10 points they can

no idea how to get Advanced Powers tho

[clear delta]

Diablerie, I imagine

Also, there's a potion that lowers yoyr generation once

[fair jungle]

Yes... so yeah, Baal can 100% do that given enough time
So I understand why they are priority n1 to destroy for everyone sake

Hell they can even force you to become a Baal with their discipline

https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Clanbook:_Baali
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Gehenna_(book)

Source for the lv10 discipline

[rare swallow]

It's like that for every discipline

Antediluvians and lower are just world ending events in general

[fair jungle]

But the Baal activelly seek Gehenna

[rare swallow]

There's more groups that actively do it

The Sabbat itself is a Gehena cult

Or at least parts of it

[fair jungle]

lv 10 disciplines are so wacky holyshit, you are right

[rare swallow]

They all have just
• Plot Device

https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Week_of_Nightmares

This is the kind of thing that happens when an antediluvian gets up

[fair jungle]

holyhell

Having -plotdevice is a huge
"Ok yeah, players CAN'T do that, no, don't even THINK about it"

"In the Gehenna supplement, this is the power for all level 10 Disciplines. Basically, it does whatever the Antediluvian in question needs to do with the Discipline in question. "

[clear delta]

Damm, can't believe an antediluvian who never made a clan woke up and wrecked shit

[rare swallow]

It's also why a lot of people ignore chunks of the meta plot, it gets a bit ridiculous

[fair jungle]

'Ennoia becomes one with the planet itself (a sort of jumped-up Earth Meld).'

HUH

[fair jungle]

Y-Yeah it becomes completely bonkers

[clear delta]

Cover the planet in darkness

[rare swallow]

Although I still laugh every time I remember that in lore the Smiling Lord nuked the City of Enoch in the Tempest using the relics if the atomic bombs used by the US. It just goes so absolutely off the rails

[fair jungle]

'Tremere, founder of his Clan, attempts to seize mental control of the entire human race but is deceived when the Tzimisce Antediluvian instead triggers an aspect of Vicissitude in everyone (Tremere included) and mutates them.'

Oh hey-
Y-yay for the Tzimisce?

[clear delta]

And eat the soul of everyone who dies during it

[hidden rock]

Meanwhile, the first ending just goes "No, shut up, you go in time-out and think about what you did this campaign. God said so."

[fair jungle]

wait what

[hidden rock]

Gehenna has multiple scenarios

[fair jungle]

oh
OH!
I should grab a pdf of that book

[hidden rock]

From the very subdued to the very bombastic "Tzimicse eats the world like the World-serpent they are"

[fair jungle]

May I ask how

[hidden rock]

That's the Tremere highjack you mentioned a little earlier

[clear delta]

There's lilith's merry railroad

[hidden rock]

Personal "fave" was Ascension's "Descent" ending. Excellent setting to start a campaign. But just a tinsy little bit of a bummer to end one.

[fair jungle]

So RPG wise, https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Tzimisce_Antediluvian his states are like a... mega hyper buffed up Terrasque or ...what else can you compare his statos to?

At the end of the page you can find it
Also
10/10 drip

[timber talon]

Gehenna also has an ending where Lilith kills Cain and every vampire dies, including the players unless they agree to become Lilim instead

[fair jungle]

Oh that's fun

[clear delta]

Yes, the railroad, right?

What are lilim?

[fair jungle]

Which Liliam?

[hidden rock]

Yep, the railroad is part of it

[timber talon]

Lilith’s children

I specifically stated lilim

[fair jungle]

thank

I could not find a page nammed 'lilim' in the wiki

[timber talon]

There isn’t one

It’s a concept unique to the Gehenna scenario

[fair jungle]

ooooh right right
I really should read it

[timber talon]

They basically become something similar to vampires but not quite I think

[fair jungle]

lives in the sun, dies in the dark /j

[timber talon]

They aren’t dead for starters

They have mortal bodies but do not age

They are still vulnerable to the sun

[hidden rock]

Wasn't there also a fourth story? There's God's timeout, Lilith's jilted payback, Apocalypse Antideluvian and...?

[fair jungle]

Do they still need to drink blood and have the beast to deal with?

[timber talon]

I don’t know

It’s more or less a plot device and Lilith kinda takes them all to live with her in the Garden whatever that means anyways

[mighty zephyr]

horror setting

[clear delta]

Chilling in Lilith's garden

[fair jungle]

Chill in Lilith's cool crib
it was wifi

Oh about V5, opinions on Amalgam disciplines?
Feels a bit weird how they smashed some disciiplines on top of others so now Gangrel can flesh wrap

[mighty zephyr]

Same basic system they had in Requiem so I'm used to it

[fair jungle]

Where you need to know x discipline to unlock y power in other discipline?

[clear delta]

Malkavians have dominate again

[timber talon]

Dementation is disturbing but not a masquerade breach

[mighty zephyr]

Where you can combine Disciplines to unlock a new power

Vigor and Resiliance and Protean could unlock basically something akin to the Warp Spasm where you would be able to transfer ALL of your attribute dots physically each turn

[fair jungle]

ye and flesh warp 'magic' is Protean now

[mighty zephyr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15tCou7O4yg

Really cool measured review of W5 but be warned that he does sorta mix new and old lore a lot

[midnight grotto]

Seems like a substantial problem in a review

[mighty zephyr]

He does put a disclaimer that he is basically using the old lore to fill in the gaps a little bit and mentions when he does so, and he upfronts on saying that "Get of Fenris" just sounds cooler to him than "Cult of Fenris"

[midnight grotto]

Ah okay

[mighty zephyr]

I also say review but it's also more an overview

[fair jungle]

Demon: The Fallen has only one edition?

[mighty zephyr]

with the first half being a review kinda

Yeah

[fair jungle]

it's worth a read? It is fun?

[mighty zephyr]

Iunno

The idea of all "Pagan" religions being inherently false to the Abrhamic faith has made me pretty disinterested in hearing it out

[fair jungle]

Yeah that's fair
Old World of Darkness seems to do that a lot.
Like how one of the Baali demons is named after a neo-pagan goddess of ...good stuff
but in oWoD no, is bad demon

[hidden rock]

Meanwhile, Mage in its little corner waving its little arms trying to scream that "Nooooo! It's just Consensus!"

[clear delta]

Owod games just kept grabbing pagan names for its supernaturals

[fair jungle]

While Garou are in-fighting screaming "WHAT THE FUCK IS A PAGAN?! FUCK TECHNOLOGY"

[clear delta]

Ishtar and odin being vampires is just disappointing

[fair jungle]

Agreed

They are probably retcon that, since V5 seems to be they trying to retcon some stuff
specially the stuff that does not bod well nowadays

[versed zodiac]

Isn’t the implication more or less that the vampires in question are just using a mythological name because they’re jumped-up drama kids with superpowers and a drug addiction

[fair jungle]

And in WoD we have more than one person nammed Odin, like:

"Odin (or Wotan) is referred by the Get of Fenris as their single greatest enemy. "

But yes! It's kinda hard to not... go that route, specially since in Vampire Cain was directly cursed by the God

[mighty zephyr]

NOW that is the case

But no in owod a lot of them were just "This is the actual historical/mythological figure"

[fair jungle]

Yehowah in specific.
look at him
He knew giving Cain superpowers was the best ideia ever

[versed zodiac]

well

that's dumb

luckily the player-characters in most campaigns don't know these kinds of things

so those facts do not exist

[fair jungle]

And True Faith being a thing
well
nothing is stopping you from being a Thor worshipper and having powers becuase of that

[versed zodiac]

exactly

everything's consensus anyways there are no Realest Correct Opinions

[fair jungle]

We are always one 'mage having a bad day' away from our reality being re-written so

agreed

[mighty zephyr]

(I actually really do not like Consensus as a plot device tbh)

[rare swallow]

Combination disciplines already existed in V20 also, and earlier in Revised I think?

It's the same concept kinda

[fair jungle]

I mean, yes.
But their are used in V5 as a way to condence disciplines and cut others

[rare swallow]

Well yeah, but that's less on the amalgam discipline system and more on their weird discipline design for V5, where they just did away with all unique disciplines for some reason

[fair jungle]

Like, in V5 Vicissitude does not exist as it's own thing.
it's an 'specialization' of Protean