World of Darkness

[spice abyss]

Strix and Mummies. 😛

Lower Depths things will also try to fit into reality, to get the things they're missing.

Abyssal things are what Should Not Be Real.

[orchid void]

But they can’t destroy the Fallen/Phenomenal World bc then they would still Lack

The Abyss merely unmakes and lies

[spice abyss]

It makes things Not.

[versed zodiac]

okay so outright lies/contradictions vs things that are conditionally untrue

[spice abyss]

Basically.

[orchid void]

Yeah!

[clear delta]

Idigam are natural, just bad for the spiritual ecosystem. Perhaps they belonged in the very early form of the spirit world

[versed zodiac]

and Idigam are things that WERE true but aren't anymore

whereas Lower Depths stuff was never true but could be

[orchid void]

And that’s why Scelestus/Nephandi are Problems

[versed zodiac]

and Abyssal stuff is never, ever true

[spice abyss]

Exactly.

One Intruder starts actively destroying the concept of Numbers when it appears.

[versed zodiac]

numbers, or quantification

[orchid void]

Oh yeah the Nemesis Continuum

[versed zodiac]

because numbers isn't the worst but quantification would be catastrophic

[orchid void]

A set of Wrong Physics

[spice abyss]

Both.

[clear delta]

Yeah. And oh so tempting for the curious and desperate. It does not follow the rules. So you can seek it for what's hard/impossible to achieve. And then it corrupts everyone and everything you care about, because you decided to break local reality for what you want

[versed zodiac]

the latter implies the former

[hidden rock]

Also it causes brain spiders

(literally)

[spice abyss]

Oh god the brain spiders.

[mighty zephyr]

Idigam might also be the reason werewolves exist!

[orchid void]

Mind control magic causes brain spiders!

[mighty zephyr]

Might be that wolf and moon had nothing to do with them.

[orchid void]

WHICH ARE A PUN

[spice abyss]

And not just Mage mind control either.

[hidden rock]

I will never not love writing that sentence

[orchid void]

They form in the subarachnoid layer of the brain

:3c

[spice abyss]

Yup

[versed zodiac]

BAD JOKE

[spice abyss]

The Abyss can have a sense of humor.

It's way less funny than you think.

[hidden rock]

The entire concept is just an immense bad joke and it is so fucking awesome in the most horrifying way.

[spice abyss]

Literal Brain Spiders.

[versed zodiac]

jokes are usually lies, so

[clear delta]

Also, mages not being careful unleash the abyss.
It's very thematically interesting.
It's encoded into the mmgame systems as a consequence of hubris. Reaching beyond your grasp

[orchid void]

My favorite abyssal intruder is Sinister Organ Qigong

[spice abyss]

Oh yeah, that one is great!

[hidden rock]

That causes shark people

also fun

[spice abyss]

I'm a big fan of False Demenses.

[orchid void]

No it causes zombies

Sewermouth~

[hidden rock]

I think they mentionned one of the old weird stuff in the mainline nWoD books

[clear delta]

I liked the chrysalis abyssal, but forgot how it worked

[hidden rock]

about infected takeout

[spice abyss]

But yeah

[mighty zephyr]

You know what's the best Idigam

[orchid void]

(The body intruder, your bile-producing organs get possessed by Abyssal Qi and become Alive, Aware, and Malicious)

[spice abyss]

Takeaway lesson: Keep that Paradox inside you, especially if it kills you

[mighty zephyr]

It's not statted and it's only really eluded to

[orchid void]

Until you collapse into an acid spewing corpse

And Melt

[hidden rock]

I made a very fun Intruder that used computers to propagate.

[spice abyss]

And never, ever make a deal with the Abyss.

[mighty zephyr]

There's a many-tendriled Thing living in the Catacombs of Paris that may be the Father of Werewolves (it's presence DIRECTLY causing more First Changes than normal) and which glutted itself on the dead of the Western Front of WW1 to begin a metamorphosis into a great and terrible God.

[spice abyss]

Oh yeah, there's also that sleeper family that has the Abyss in its genetics!

And the more of them that exist, the more the entity that made the deal can be in.

[hidden rock]

Could infect local networks, and used infected machines to implant electronic eggs in people, that would create new infestation sites when the sick interacted with another computer.

[clear delta]

I think it was a cocoon made of glass

[hidden rock]

That one was nasty

(I decided against it propagating via Wi Fi or mobile networks because good god)

[versed zodiac]

I mean, that's just worms irl

[hidden rock]

Oh yeah forgot to mention, the first infestation site was a goddamn call center

couple hundred infected right out of the gate

[versed zodiac]

I did something like this in a Call of Cthulhu game actually

the antagonist had a copy of the King in Yellow and a dream

a dream of wardialing an entire town from the local switching board and reading the King in Yellow aloud over the phone

[orchid void]

See im glad Lucy is in 1999 bc that makes her candle tricks easier

[heady kestrel]

I would also like to mention The Knights Of Saint George
A hunter conspiracy that uses the abyss to kill mages because they think if they don't mages will accidentally anger the abyss too much and end the world(though they have al ot of misconceptions about mages)

[mighty zephyr]

Based

[clear delta]

So, does ascension have personal mind realms?

[rare swallow]

I think so?

I've never played and haven't had a chance to read Ascension but I'm pretty sure that's a thing mages can do in the higher umbra?

[clear delta]

The wiki only talks about non-personal astral

[rare swallow]

Oh it's not in the high umbra

I think they're horizon realms?

I decided to look it up

Either way it's more something that's created by a mage than a personal thing I think

[clear delta]

Oh, so no official stuff for diving into soneone's mind

[rare swallow]

Oh that's probably doable with the Sphere of Mind

[mighty zephyr]

Presumably it's where the Avatar lives

[clear delta]

So ascension doesn't have mages that turn their inner issues into minions, like awakening

[heady kestrel]

They are up there for “bullshit thing I want to make come up as a antagonist in a mage game”

Guy who comes at you in full plate armor and can parry your spells with a demon bone sword

[rare swallow]

From my cursory glance at Awakening and Ascension through mostly wiki pages tbh they seem like the most different splats between oWoD and CofD

Just completely different vibes and aesthetic goals?

[heady kestrel]

Demons are even more different

Imo at least

[clear delta]

True, but I'm surprised a classic concept like exploring a mind and its characters doesn't pop up in ascension

[rare swallow]

Like CtD and CtL are very different, with CtL being way more grim, but it still has like glamour and a decent amount of similar concepts

[mighty zephyr]

Elden Ring PvP

[clear delta]

Digression. Ratkin society is weird. They're aways hierarchical and someone always get mistreated.

[rare swallow]

Basically in Ascension you can play multiple flavours of Mages, including like just straight up druids
So the exploration of the mind isn't really necessarily something every mage does?

[heady kestrel]

They can do a lot of fun shit, mostly by summoning bound abyss monsters to help fight you

By doing stuff like corrupting your mana stores or unraveling spells

[clear delta]

True, but it doesnxt pop up at all in the rules? Like a thing a group does

[rare swallow]

As I said, I think it's something accomplished through the sphere of mind which allows astral projection and literally diving into minds

But I haven't really played or read much of the system, and just know things through friends

[clear delta]

I know it's possible. I just wanted to compare the way it works to awakening, and see how a character idea I jad worked.
Guess I can just trans plant the rules from awakening

[queen heron]

yeah this is the core

its not even a great antagonist you can rally against

[clear delta]

My pedantry compels me to say there's a group of druids in awakening

[queen heron]

its corrosive

[rare swallow]

@clear delta I dunno much about Awakening, but neat

I always like playing dumb nature mages because it's my favourite magic trope to talk to plants and make them grow out of nowhere (and control them)

[clear delta]

The nature mages, thyrsus, use spirit and life, and view the world and magic through the lens of superorganism, instinct, negotiation. They have the keyworlds boundaries and intercession
The celtic druids are a smaller group that walk into the realm Mists that allows them to portal into places, and glimpse the past and future

[mighty zephyr]

my least favorite thing about Ascenscion is mainly just like the "satire" of "everyone is doing magick wrong" makes little sense with the way everything is set up

[rare swallow]

Oh?

[mighty zephyr]

Like

There's global organizations of high-ranking mages that are not disparately aligned and indeed are in complete regular contact

how are paradigms a thing when everyone is like "Oh yeah the real paradigm is just telling reality to go fuck itself"

[clear delta]

Mages too connected to the abyss may reject their truths and hopes, embracing corrosive doomerism. They the Nasnas

[rare swallow]

Hmm the way I saw it at least from what I took from Paradigms is that it's just a general view of where magic comes from that helps you direct how you do your reality bending
For me, as a neopagan irl I think the concept makes sense because irl multiple different types of religions interpret how magic is done differently?

I enjoy it because it would allow me to for example make a character with similar views like mine towards how the world works

But do really fantastical things

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah which is how Awakening does it but Asenscions framing is "You start with these objectively wrong beliefs and figure out the truth as you level up."

[rare swallow]

Aah

I see

[clear delta]

I like how k6bd deal with beliefs affecting reality

Which I think is "only stuff you interact with" instead of a consensus effect?

[heady kestrel]

How do y’all visualize the exarchs

[versed zodiac]

Without permission

[timber talon]

How DARE you attempt to visualize them

[heady kestrel]

Father: pillar of gold light
Unity: dark glass cube
The Eye: A glyph of an eye
The General: anonymous figure holding a sword

[spice abyss]

I don't. Fuckers wanted to abandon reality? Then fuck 'em, I don't give 'em forms.

[timber talon]

I think all of us should escapae reality

laws of physics is overrated

as if some conception of reality from some NERDY OLD MAN should deny MY RIGHT to survive without a spacesuit in space

[heady kestrel]

This forms entered my mind without consent

Like whenever I am thinking about them these images simply appear

Which I think makes them perfect

[spice abyss]

Fuck 'em, I cast Selective Aphantasia.

[timber talon]

Are exarchs still around in ascension

[clear delta]

Father: bearded old man. Like how Christian God abd Zeus are often depicted. Holds light/energy. Yellow
Eye: mix of eye and portal. 2d, vertical, turns fast. Green
Chancellor: guy in a fancy hat, and dresses formal in generam. Dark blue. Zelda spirit track was probably an influence, but I don't think of chancellor as short
General: woman in military uniform. Maybe some ant stuff. Red
Unity: guess some geometric stuff, with roots/tendrils. Maybe hands in some gestures. Light blue.
Raptor: it's an evil velociraptor!

[heady kestrel]

My view of Chancellor is of like a medieval Christian demon

My view of raptor is a black feathered raptor

[clear delta]

My view of raptor, I must add, involves a velociraptor rubbing its hands evilly.

With ominous shade on it

Nemesis is difficult. Maybe something "solid" and closed. Orange

Psychopomp. Skeleton in a bone wheel, light blue tattered clothes

Their speech. Hmm. Imagine skeleton opening its mouth wide. A scream, a judgement. Sometimes, a weapon in hand to block the way to heaven

[queen heron]

I dont really visualize them

if I do, its clothing and tools for the office

the General is swords, gunsmoke, artillery fire, a bloody wound

the face changes, the shape remains

or just a labyrinth of overlapping High Speech runes for an Iron Seal

knotted truth folded up on itself: hateful, arcane, dense

[queen heron]

this is fantastic though too

and canon

[mighty zephyr]

Tonight is Evil Train Night

[timber talon]

Maybe it’s a good train?

It scoops werewolves in front of them and safely tosses them aside so that they don’t damage the train or injure the werewolf too much

Very Gaia friendly

[orchid void]

Exarchs are awakening only

Ascension has the Technocracy instead

[mighty zephyr]

Werewolf Cowboys almost done

The ghost wolf player is now a void reiver

[patent talon]

That's bad, right?

[clear delta]

Yes, very much

Corrupted by a space spirit into their avatar, while they isolate themselves from this bountiful but overwhelming world

[rare swallow]

Getting close to finishing my read through Changeling: the Dreaming 20th, I'm actually like slightly staggered by the sheer amount of like "foes" there exist in the changeling universe, as just directly antagonistic creatures to deal with

[heady kestrel]

Yeah….

[rare swallow]

Autumn people, Dauntain, Dark-kin, Thallain, Chimera, Nightmare Chimera, Dream Eaters… I'm sure there's more to list but just wow lol

And then of course you have the various other denizens of WoD like vampires, werewolves, mages

[versed zodiac]

And the technocracy

There’s always the technocracy to worry about

[rare swallow]

Yeah

Banality infused people who can change the fabric of reality with their will are
Definitely not great

[clear delta]

Ratkin can turn into cartoon mice people in the umbra, lmao

[clear delta]

Aight, gotta make weremice for forsaken and connect them to dreams or mickey mouse
Forsaken shifters come from Pangaeans and idigam, right?

[spice abyss]

They come from Wolf.

[mighty zephyr]

They come from Pangeans yeah

[clear delta]

I think I read Idigam caused one shifter group?

Oh, I'm cooking. Memes spread as rodents reproduce, or diseases spread. Association with intelligence. Treating the astral as sea, rats infested ships
Could work as astral shifters.

Unscrupulous ones hiding in houses to easily access the dreans of those sleeping

They could be, without realizing, opening a bunch of bad passages between the physical and astral. Messing up the astral with their nests.

[mighty zephyr]

I said last night or the day before that an Idigam may be the true father of Werewolves

[clear delta]

Hmm. I don't think I read that recently

[fair jungle]

oi, what happens if a mage(male) and a werewolf(female) have a child?

none of them know one and the other have supernatural things
Asking for a campaign

[clear delta]

Being a mage isn't inherited in either version

No effect on your kids

[fair jungle]

So the child is more likely to be a werewolf

[timber talon]

Ye

[fair jungle]

thank!

[timber talon]

What happens if a vampire embraces a werewolf again

Do they turn into some kind of abomination of nature

[velvet sparrow]

Note: more likely does not mean likely

[timber talon]

Not all child of a werewolf is a werewolf right

[versed zodiac]

usually they die instantly

[velvet sparrow]

Rarely they die slowly

[orchid void]

vitae does nasty stuff to you

[versed zodiac]

but sometimes, if they are deeply unlucky, they turn into a horrible monster before inevitably dying

werewolves are very allergic to vitae

[rare swallow]

In excessively rare cases it does create an Abomination, yes
But often the werewolf violently refuses the vitae or dies.

[timber talon]

Can this happen accidentally

[versed zodiac]

as accidentally as an Embrace can get

so uh

[rare swallow]

Just like in excessively rare cases an embraced Changeling might become a Maeghar, though often they just die

[timber talon]

Like when a werewolf pup hasn’t had their first change and gets embraced

[versed zodiac]

If they don't know their victim is a werewolf, I guess...?

[timber talon]

What’s a maeghar

[rare swallow]

A vampire changeling

[timber talon]

Also what are changelings exactly

[velvet sparrow]

/vampire who was around/affected by weird fae stuff at or near the time of their Embrace

[velvet sparrow]

Faeries

[orchid void]

we must again ask

old or new

[timber talon]

Err old world of darkness

[orchid void]

because words mean very different things depending on which one you mean

then yes, changelings are fae-folks trapped outside the realm of dreams and sometimes end up with vitae in them in weird ways

[fair jungle]

Ah yes
Fae

[clear delta]

Actually, back on the mage werewolf question.
For chronicles of darkness. Does a proximus lose their powers upon becoming a minor or major template?

[fair jungle]

In WoD what is a changeling exactly?

in short

[orchid void]

i think so?

generally these questions are best answered as "idk man if its cool"

[orchid void]

again which one

[fair jungle]

New

[queen heron]

yeah I was gonna mention the Faerie Vamp dev-homebrew splat

[orchid void]

oh, people who were kidnapped by the True Fae

and subjected to horrific abuse that transformed them into changelings before they escaped

Out from Arcadia, through the Hedge, and back into the "real" world, scarred and changed

Changeling: The Lost is a game about being a victim of abuse and how you deal with that

[timber talon]

Can mages literally rewrite history so that past events happened in a different way

[queen heron]

They're (maybe?) human and (maybe?) fae, and both at the same time

[orchid void]

its very very very good at it

[orchid void]

time is an arcana so probably?

again like

[queen heron]

yes but it depends on what you mean

[clear delta]

Yes

[orchid void]

questions like this are best answered by "yeah probably if its cool and works"

[clear delta]

Corridors of time is a spell in new mage

[queen heron]

temporal summoning or that one time 4 spell I hate work that way, and you can also literally go back in time
or rewrite 'what you did'

[fair jungle]

oh neat, thank ya

[clear delta]

Also, there's temporal sympathy

[orchid void]

both of these games are horror/mystery games so pinning down everything makes it weirder and harder

just absorb the Vibes and Roll!

[versed zodiac]

https://youtu.be/AcKf_47pbOA

[clear delta]

I think I saw something mention changelings that were just stuck in arcadia and had no specific keeper

[clear delta]

Like spatial sympathy

Never looked at temporal sympathy much, tho

[queen heron]

I tend to think of Changelings as more 'of the Hedge' than of Arcadia

but thats just personal vibes

[orchid void]

There's sort of a reason Tome of the Pentacle goes more into the nitty-gritty of how they figure timelines should work, but Temporal Sympathy is basically your Sympathy to something in a when

Like using a painting of an event to help you get sympathy to the event

[clear delta]

Corridors of time straight up lets you possess your past self and start rewriting history. Before it takes, other time mages can detect your fuckery abd interfere with it or cast temporal protections on things and people to stop them from being changed

[queen heron]

yeah found it

this was from the Hill changeling, during 2e's development

so almost-official at one point

but the core is the same

which is that the game says you lose stuff, but also, if its cool
you don't have to

they wont arrest you for cofd crimes

[timber talon]

reqiuem doesn't have generations right

just older vampires are stronger?

[clear delta]

Blood potence

Accumulate over time, decrease with torpor

Elders deliberately enter torpor

Because high blood potence restricts their diet to other vampires

Risking vinculum

[rare swallow]

V5 basically took the idea from Requiem too iirc, while still also having generations

[clear delta]

(Blood bond)

Torpor in 1e also scrambled their memories, but I think that's gone in 2e

[spice abyss]

No, the Fog of Ages is still a thing.

[clear delta]

Did anything change about it?

Oh, it happens but not always?

[timber talon]

also what's going on with VTM2 game that paradox was developing?

you are playing as some kind of recently awakened... Elder?

[clear delta]

What? I didn't see that

Also, reading about vampire tge requiem, apparently the vampiric traditions are encoded into the undead?
The masquerade is instinctive.
Also, imagine how douchey vampires are, that "you make a vampire, they're your responsibility had to get written into their very blood, alongside "don't fucking eat souls"

[timber talon]

yeah this convo reminded me of the plot for VTM2 as was described to me

"You are playing as a vampire elder who awoke after centuries of torpor..."

and I distinctly remember that being odd because

isn't an elder vampire gonna be like one of the biggest fish in the pond

[mighty zephyr]

Yes

But you are sealed from your full power in that game

[clear delta]

Why did they change to an elder?

[mighty zephyr]

Iunno

Why did they change to an established character

Thought it was better

[orchid void]

Excuse to actually engage with the power stat I guess?

Bc Masquerade is pretty Solid

[timber talon]

huh

[orchid void]

About your Power Stat

[timber talon]

what can cause an elder vampire to be sealed

their powers, I mean

some kind of blood sorcery curse?

[orchid void]

I unno!

They were making shit up for a videos game

[spice abyss]

Yeah, Masquerade just... Doesn't really interact with your power stat beyond the start.

[clear delta]

The banu haqim did get collectively curses

[timber talon]

so by having your vampire char be a sealed elder

you can justify leveling up mechanic as you resisting your curse over time to return to your 'original' strength

[orchid void]

Yeah

[timber talon]

I guess that makes sense

[orchid void]

Since Generation Hard Caps

You don’t move once it’s done outside of drinking an older vampires soul out of him

[mighty zephyr]

Also let's you mix and match disciplines

I guess

[timber talon]

huh

[mighty zephyr]

Since it's implied you were an atrocious diablerist

[timber talon]

don't you have to bite other clan vampires to-oh

[mighty zephyr]

Only implied so far idk for sure

[timber talon]

you don't have to do diablerie to learn out of clan disciplines though right

just drinking their blood is fine?

[mighty zephyr]

But an Elder could theoretically have anything yeah

[orchid void]

meanwhile Requiem just worries about Potency and Bloodlines

Where both slowly get stacked on as you age

[timber talon]

aren't diablerists kinda uh, vampire equivalent of psychopaths

[mighty zephyr]

Nope

[orchid void]

No?

Murderers maybe

[mighty zephyr]

It's an action that anyone can take yeah

[timber talon]

I suppose

[orchid void]

But no less than any other vampire

[timber talon]

I thought it stains your soul in a way that becomes visible to Auspex

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah itndoes

[orchid void]

It does!

[spice abyss]

It's basically just a flavored murder.

[orchid void]

But other than that

[spice abyss]

Crystal Murder

[mighty zephyr]

Blood flavored

[orchid void]

who give a fuck

[spice abyss]

Elders generally

[orchid void]

diablerize that fool

[mighty zephyr]

How do you think they became elders

[rare swallow]

Soul flavored snack

[mighty zephyr]

Legally???

[orchid void]

certainly not

[mighty zephyr]

Diablerie is just like siring childer

[timber talon]

Diablerie is still mega illegal in the camarilla right

[mighty zephyr]

It's the cardinal sin no one should ever do that everyone does

[timber talon]

lmao

[rare swallow]

The trick is to not get caught

[clear delta]

The stains are temporary

[timber talon]

oh

the stains fade over time?

[mighty zephyr]

Or if you do make it so your accuser would rather not

[timber talon]

i thought the diablerist would be permanently marked

[versed zodiac]

only for a few years

[clear delta]

Just go out of town for a while whenever you diablerize someone. No one will susoect you

[rare swallow]

You could always also just wait until someone of a lower generation gets a blood hunt called on them
And then have a totally state sanctioned and allowed soul snack

For Cammies

[mighty zephyr]

Or make it so they get marked yourself

[rare swallow]

Indeed

[mighty zephyr]

I saw goodie proctor with the Sabbat

[timber talon]

does diablerizing people of higher generation do anything

[mighty zephyr]

Not really

[timber talon]

aside from draining their disciplines I guess

[rare swallow]

It's tasty apparently

[mighty zephyr]

You get more disciplines yeah if you really wanna

[rare swallow]

Described as one of the best sensations a vampire can have I think?

[timber talon]

huh

do different supernaturals have different flavored blood

[rare swallow]

Kinda?

[mighty zephyr]

Yes

[rare swallow]

I know drinking werewolf blood makes you even more prone to frenzy
And Changeling blood I think Enchants you for a while (gives you some glamour)

[mighty zephyr]

Werewolf blood does Things to vampires

[rare swallow]

Enchantment is usually bad, though

I don't know if mage blood does anything

In V5 I think blood can also be flavoured depending on strong emotions the person is feeling (which also has interesting effects)

[timber talon]

How dangerous is a hunter with True Faith to a vampire?

Like does true faith only serve to defend the faithful hunter from disciplines and to force the vampire to get back

Or can the hunter use it offensively to smite a vampire

[fair jungle]

Btw rules wise.
How Flaws work in V5?
I didn't get it

[rare swallow]

It is measured by a 1-5 rating (at least in v20) like most things
However none of the powers from 1-5 really do anything like deal damage; however 5 dots can basically make it so you cause a vampire to flee away in terror or succumb to a whimpering mess from feelings of guilt

[timber talon]

I see

[rare swallow]

There may or may not be 6+ dot powers but they're not described in v20 at least

[orchid void]

Works better on Baali

[timber talon]

Baali?

[versed zodiac]

infernalist vampires

[timber talon]

Oh

[versed zodiac]

they fuck with devils

[rare swallow]

Imagine if vampires could get even worse

They're hated enough even the Camarilla and Sabbat can agree hunting them down is a good idea (iirc)

[clear delta]

Oh, the ordo dracul has a Scale that makes it so vampire relatives have no advantage against you, and it's easier to sire vampires. This comes after a bunch of blood bond powers.
Hmm, this gives me an idea. Vampires multiplying fast. Maybe with some mini vampiric creatures, like ghouled animals or detached pieces of tgemselves tgat transform into creatures

[clear delta]

If a Baali achieves high enough generation, they can do a doomsday ritual

[clear delta]

Low enough

I messing up generation

[rare swallow]

Lol that happens

[keen bluff]

currently planning to play a Thin-blood in the potential VtM game

can't wait to come up with stupid recipes for awful concoctions

[timber talon]

Thinbloods can go out during the day righ5

With the right sunscreen

[keen bluff]

giving myself night vision by mixing Crystal Pepsi, mercury sulfide, glow stick liquid, and Ephedra in my Pickle Rick bong

[keen bluff]

and sorta? It looks like in V5e (which is what we're using), you can be outside for a bit but still not super long

[versed zodiac]

there's a thinblood merit that makes you completely immune

but it empties out your hunger meter

[timber talon]

So you can go in the sun in exchange for being really hungy

[versed zodiac]

mhm

finished up another VtM session

Tonight one of the coterie members decided to solve a car chase by using a stolen truck as a weapon, causing a catastrophic accident, and then tried to tell me that they shouldn't take Stains for splattering 3 people like tomatoes

they were Hunters, though

[velvet sparrow]

Doesn't one or two dots give you the ability to press a holy symbol into them to do Agg?

Yeah, first dot, lets them repel you with a holy symbol; if the holy symbol is pressed against your flesh you take Aggravated Damage

[orchid void]

as is correct in the camarilla im trying to hate this guy you’ve conjured to death

[versed zodiac]

that guy archetype unfortunately only gets stronger the harder you try to explode them with your mind

[orchid void]

truly to be a vampire is to be cursed

[versed zodiac]

yeah

[clear delta]

Man, it's so weird they just added in the Clavicularius description that members occasionally fuck up humans' lives as a "crucible" in the style of the book of Job.
Just, not connected well to what they do, seems pointlessly cruel, and I think the Guardians wouldn't like it

Actually, this is comically cruel

"Yes, I'll mess up people's lives to test and make them stronger.
Tgen I'll get back to my actual job of therapy by punching my demons in the face then making them into my minions."

[grave gulch]

That would work in my opinion

Cause vamps powers depend in vitae right?

[keen bluff]

My character concept boils down to "Jesse Pinkman but he's a vampire", so absolutely this dude is gonna be... maybe not the worst, but certainly not the best either

[rare swallow]

Thin bloods in V5 are pretty cool

Alchemy is also really cool

Also I mean when you're at the bottom of vampire society, being a good person definitely won't help you survive for long unfortunately

[grave gulch]

Well

At least you wont be getting fucked by the inquisition on the same intensity

Cause they have been able to hide prettt well thanks to their thin blood haha

[rare swallow]

Leeches are leeches and they still have to drink blood

[grave gulch]

True

[keen bluff]

I think I've got my boy down. Daniel Mayhew, shitty part-time pharmacy tech/nurse/something like that and drug cook extraordinaire. Specialties include somehow understanding Thin-blood Alchemy with 1 INT + one pip in Science and Academics + zero in Occult, being able to eat a burger without consequences, having no greater connections to Kindred society period, and a unique susceptibility to getting his ass beat by just a few motivated guys with baseball bats

The upside is he's got Shivers (Wits 4, Awareness and Streetwise 3) so his ability to vibe check if he's walking into something bad is pretty unparalleled

He's also get telekinesis potions so he can do this

[timber talon]

what discipline gives vampires telekinesis again?

Or is this unique to thin bloods

oh thaumaturgy

[clear delta]

Thaumaturgy is a pathway to abilities some consider... unnatural

[velvet sparrow]

Used to be thaumaturgy, but I think in v5 Thaumaturgy can't do it anymore

[timber talon]

I guess obtenebration can sorta produce the same effect?

[orchid void]

thin blood alchemy is GO

[grave gulch]

If i play V5 im 100% making a thin blood

Thin bloods can drink Alcohol they can eat food sometimes

They can feel shit

If i have stronge friends i would probably be fine

[timber talon]

I think humanity 8 vampire can also enjoy alcohol

good luck keeping humanity 8 though I guess

humanity 10 vampire can also enjoy food I think but that's even more of a hard sell

[keen bluff]

I'm mostly here for the novelty of mixing Carabao, sulfur trioxide, grated wasabi, bromine, and malic acid in a Mason jar to give myself the acid blood from Alien

just the most god-awful concoctions I can come up with

creating chemically discombobulated meme milkshakes in my basement apartment as an affront to the Lord

[candid shadow]

So like, for mage the TTRPG is there any real limit mechanically for what a mage can do if they can get consensus for their magic?

[fair jungle]

Young Magi using his newfound powers in the least destructive way possible

[fair jungle]

Is very VERY open and is a balance of Storyteller, rolls, fuckaround+findout and points in the magic

[versed zodiac]

It ain't magic if it's consensus, technically
Also yes, but the limits aren't that hard

"Can you do [this]" is probably a "yes" unless [this] would destroy the plot

[fair jungle]

also https://oakthorne.net/wiki/index.php/Mage_Awakening_Spellcasting_Steps this

[candid shadow]

Ah alright

[candid shadow]

Also thanks

[candid shadow]

Also wait if it’s not magic what is it?

[fair jungle]

Spells

[versed zodiac]

It's just how reality works

[fair jungle]

https://codexofdarkness.com/wiki/Spells,_All_(2nd_Edition)

Like
While you are free to just do whatever and try to gaslight the storyteller in letting you do what you want
There is also pre-existing spells

[versed zodiac]

"gaslight" is kinda harsh

[fair jungle]

But is good to remember mage stories don't happen in a vaccum , so while yes you can cast meteor, that might cost your body to implode

I am being hyperbole on the gaslight part, pardon

[versed zodiac]

Mage is a game about having various degrees of argument with the storyteller about whether or not you should be permitted to do the thing, though

[orchid void]

So in OMage, yeah technically

[candid shadow]

I mean yah but like, it’s easier to just call it magic to differentiate it from like, normal stuff

[orchid void]

In nMage they don’t work on Consesus

[candid shadow]

Oh is that Old vs new world of darkness?

[orchid void]

Yep!

[candid shadow]

What does new mage work off then?

[orchid void]

In oMage Consensus/Paradigms is how it works

[fair jungle]

found it! https://web.archive.org/web/20221129121555/http://www.voidstate.com/rpg/mage-spell-helper/#/

[orchid void]

Drawing down power from the Neoplatonic Realms Of Truth

[fair jungle]

had to use hte web archive but this is a good calculator for casting spells

[candid shadow]

[fair jungle]

It is for awakening 2e tho

[orchid void]

And trying to avoid getting fucked by the vast sea of Antireality that lay between the Phenomenal World and the Supernal Realms

[fair jungle]

Focus on being subtle with your spells

[candid shadow]

That’s a lot of jargon

[orchid void]

Neoplatonics!!!

[orchid void]

An example of new mage, let’s look at the Space!

[fair jungle]

THE WAR BETWEEN MARS MAGES VS VENUS MAGES RAGES ON

[candid shadow]

Wait actually?

[fair jungle]

Spoilers: It is the old world of darkness mages vs new world of darkness mages
||this is a lie||

[candid shadow]

Ah

[orchid void]

To cast a spell of space, you Know that Distance is part of Lie that is the world we live in

[fair jungle]

https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Space delilah meant this space

[orchid void]

So why not open your closet door and step through into an office building?

Distance Is A Lie

[fair jungle]

Some mages even believe outer space is a Lie

capital L

[orchid void]

That’s part of the Truth that Space represents

The other part of Space is Sympathy, the Connections between things

[fair jungle]

The Lie part of the lore is such a mind fuck i love it

[candid shadow]

So nMage is about redefining the truths of reality to cast spells?

[orchid void]

This is also why Magistos, the mages who specialize in Space & Mind, have trouble working with Matter- Matter doesn’t have Agency, only Sympathy, and Matter is what Makes Up everything from point A to B

[orchid void]

Think of it more as enforcing a Higher Truth

There isn’t a redefinition, only the Truth

[candid shadow]

Oh

So there is a truth of the rules of the universe

[orchid void]

Yes

[candid shadow]

And only awakened mages are able to see and use it

[orchid void]

The Supernal is The Truth

[candid shadow]

Then question, why doesn’t the world operate on that to begin with?

[versed zodiac]

because of the fall

everything sucks.

[orchid void]

Because of the Exarchs

[candid shadow]

If the truth of the universe is that our physics is wrong, why do our physics work like that?

[orchid void]

Who stole the empty thrones of heaven

And built the Lie

[versed zodiac]

literally some fucking nerds shagged the whole system

absolutely mucked it up

[candid shadow]

That sounds like a dick move

[orchid void]

The demiurge is real and is also like twelve guys

[versed zodiac]

it was a supreme dick move

[candid shadow]

Are they the kinds, nMage equivalent to the technocracy, in that they’re the people stopping mages from doing all their cool mage stuff?

[orchid void]

Yes, the Seers of the Throne

Guys who signed up with the Demiurge

[versed zodiac]

so on the Big D scale of calling mages nerds

Seers are probably on the most extreme "fucking nerd" end of the spectrum

[candid shadow]

They will throw mages into lockers

[orchid void]

The Seers are also Magi

They just use the symbols of Tyranny for their magic

Like Mammon, the Hegemony, the Father, and the Eye

[versed zodiac]

the other thing stopping you from doing cool mage stuff is Paradox

which is even worse in nMage

[candid shadow]

Oh so paradox is still a thing then

[versed zodiac]

not only is it a thing, it is a considerably more unpleasant thing

you know how there's the truth and the Lie?

there's things that aren't just a diluted version of the truth, but like

full on never-ever-true contradictions

[orchid void]

Things that are Anti-True

Can’t Happen

Won’t Happen

Shouldn’t Happen

[candid shadow]

Even by a mage?

[versed zodiac]

Paradoxing is what happens when your truth and the Lie fail to reconcile

[orchid void]

But there it is! The Abyss!

[versed zodiac]

it lets the contradictions in

and you don't want that

[orchid void]

Because it degrades the fabric of reality a little bit every time

[candid shadow]

So for that distance example, if distance is a lie, but connection is true, if those can’t reconcile with your spells paradox occurs

And bad shit happens

[orchid void]

Eh!

[candid shadow]

If I understand correctly?

[orchid void]

Sometimes you just fuck up

Or a Sleeper sees you

[versed zodiac]

more like if distance is a lie and you warp, but you fail to explain to the Sleepers how you did it (i.e. they see you do that shit), you're gonna Paradox

[orchid void]

And the Abyss manifests

[versed zodiac]

also yeah sometimes you can just shank being a magician

[candid shadow]

Sleepers are just non mages right?

[versed zodiac]

yes

[candid shadow]

Ah alright

Actually I wanna know, even for supernatural beings paradox can still occur right?

Like if a vampire sees you warp that can still trigger it?

[versed zodiac]

define supernatural beings

[orchid void]

Nope!

[candid shadow]

Ohhh

[orchid void]

They count as Sleepwalkers

[candid shadow]

So not awakened but not asleep

[orchid void]

Also

[versed zodiac]

they're not quite living the lie but they're not exactly awake either

[candid shadow]

What about humans who know about the supernatural?

[orchid void]

https://youtu.be/RqOSPm2UdRs?si=t030fg5j8W1Z-G7R

Seers

[candid shadow]

Ok

[versed zodiac]

normal people kinda can't know the supernatural

[candid shadow]

So even someone like a hunter or occult researcher is still a sleeper?

[somber scarab]

There is a state between sleeper and awakened that some people can fall into

[candid shadow]

Oh so some can be a sleepwalker

[orchid void]

Yeah, but how and why is confusing and A Mystery

[orchid void]

The Lie clouds their souls, and when they witness the Truth they kinda can’t handle it. They can’t see the Truth- so all they see is the Abyss. And they uh, have a breakdown about it until they can self-censor those memories to stabilize their psyche

[candid shadow]

Honestly, I personally could handle witnessing the truth

[heady kestrel]

omg I have been working on a Seer playlist recently and this song was one of the first things I thought to put on it

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsEc41oypXvAOP93teZG1HRp1bEbGrh-6&si=8BafL_f_AzpEd4hp

[candid shadow]

Literally

No wait Delilah already explained them

[mighty zephyr]

Also fun fact the world seemingly operated on normal laws before Atlantis fell so who knows what the truth is

[candid shadow]

The demiurge who are also like 12 dudes

[versed zodiac]

that or the fall retroactively changed things

[mighty zephyr]

True

[candid shadow]

Wait Atlantis is relevant to this?

[versed zodiac]

like any good conspiracy theory

Atlantis is always involved

[mighty zephyr]

Atlantis is the mage civilization that built the ladder

Symbolically Atlantis

It's also El Dorado, ur Shambala, whatever lost city you need

[versed zodiac]

if it doesn't go back to Atlantis, Mu, the Hollow Earth or Hyperborea what the fuck kind of conspiracy / secret truth are you discussing really

[candid shadow]

Oh so it’s like, every ancient legendary city then

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah

Atlantis may not be real and may be a symbol

It may have been a place or an idea

All we know is that SOMETHING BROKE super hard

[candid shadow]

Also wait if the world worked on normal rules until it fell there’s a possibility the Truth isn’t really the truth of this world and Mages are just using breaks in reality?

[mighty zephyr]

Yup!

[versed zodiac]

listen

[candid shadow]

God this is way more confusing then oMage

[mighty zephyr]

Oh my god

[versed zodiac]

some people think that the Lie isn't reality at all, but a bubble of pseudostability floating in the Abyss cut off from the real timeline

[mighty zephyr]

They named the first city Irem

The entire thing of Mummy is memories

And they named its lost city I remember

That's dumb I love it

[versed zodiac]

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Iram_of_the_Pillars

[candid shadow]

So then nothing is real, the lie isn’t real, the truth isn’t real, only the abyss is real

[mighty zephyr]

No the Truth is definitely real

[candid shadow]

And the abyss coming into reality is just this false reality breaking down and actually reality taking it’s place

[versed zodiac]

nah the perspective there would be that the truth is still real, just that the Lie is suuuuuper doomed

[candid shadow]

Ohhh

[versed zodiac]

the Abyss is definitely still Incorrect

it is the LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER of reality

https://youtu.be/EhkQxkZ0G1s

She sleepwalkin on my nimbus till I paradox

[candid shadow]

So the truth and the lie are definitely things

It’s just a question if mages are actually in tune with that truth

Or just deluding themselves into thinking they’re using that truth

Is that correct?

[versed zodiac]

You can question anything you'd like

Mages don't have to be right, many are degrees of wrong that range from "I think the Exarchs are cool actually" to "REALITY IS A FUCK CALL FORTH THE ABYSS"

[heady kestrel]

(the latter guys got me cracking up at this statement)

[candid shadow]

That last guy is just throwing fireballs in public

[versed zodiac]

Rick James dwells in the Abyss

And he wants company! Sometimes.

[heady kestrel]

They have dark evil magic techniques that defiled and broke their magic and now they can use paradox to their advantage

[candid shadow]

They sound like assholes

[heady kestrel]

they are

[candid shadow]

More so then the average mage

[heady kestrel]

like comically evil

[candid shadow]

Which is a high bar to clear

[heady kestrel]

like "I traveled back in time and killed myself as a baby to obtain immortality as a void demon"

[versed zodiac]

you know how vampires are mostly assholes

[candid shadow]

That’s so fucked up lmao

[versed zodiac]

but Sabbat are such assholes that all the other vampires agree that they can go fuck themselves

[candid shadow]

Making a grandfather paradox with yourself

[versed zodiac]

and then Baali are so bad that even the Sabbat will team up with the Camarilla and the Anarchs to fuck them up?

[heady kestrel]

"I asked an eldritch horror to devour my name so now I immune to sympathetic magic"

[candid shadow]

Honestly no I have never heard of the baali

[versed zodiac]

oh, well they're a whole thing in VtM

nutty vampire cultists summoning demons to end the world or whatever

[candid shadow]

Oh no

[versed zodiac]

they don't really have the competence or numbers to back the agenda up though on account of everyone, even the Sabbat, taking the kill-on-sight approach

[candid shadow]

Fair enough honestly

They don’t sound like they can be reasoned with

[versed zodiac]

anyways Paradox Enjoyers fall under the same category as the Baali where even mortal enemies will sip tea and play dolls together if it's for the sake of murdering the Scelesti (aforementioned paradox enjoyers)

[candid shadow]

Yah that does sound reasonable

[orchid void]

Scelestus are Problem

[velvet sparrow]

They are Bad News for everyone involved

Bad News enough that everyone's goals include "Don't let that guy win"

[queen heron]

more like "not the whole picture"

physics work like that because the Supernal defines them that way: its the source of meaning itself

also

something can be 'wrong' and also be True

the Exarchs are up there, in some form

[queen heron]

I'd say its prob not in question for mages as a whole

depends what you mean by in tune, I guess

Mages are definitely experiencing some form of cosmic enlightenment when they rub wizard eyes on something.... but they also tend to get lost in the weeds and then make connections that don't follow

some think you can't really comprehend reality without ascension, that your perspective will always be limited

but there is truth!

[queen heron]

(the myths of the Oracles, Tremere fanfiction theology about the 6th Watchtower, the Mysterium's anti-sleeper problem, or the Silver Ladder's tendency to go 'this empire will be the perfected one!`)

[sacred viper]

Mage is about trying to release your first paper in an incredibly obtuse academic field

[queen heron]

from the academics I know who play it, yeah lmao

theres also the element that any mage can't know everything

the person with a Doctorate in Aerospace Engineering might be equally clueless on how the legal system works as anyone else

The mage whos engaged in the Rite of the Thunderskin, rent apart, crawling back from the Underworld to learn more about resurrection and life

might not know any more about dreams and prophecy than the average sleeper

they specialize

and thats just mystic knowledge

mages are still humans who had human lives, and carry their biases forward

[queen heron]

(I resolve this with "Mage theology is too dramatic about the Fall - the Phenomenal isn't lesser, nor created by the Exarchs, but a part of the whole")

[orchid void]

Which is what the Free Council preach

As Below, So Above

[mighty zephyr]

I activate trap hole

[versed zodiac]

I ACTIVATE MYSTICAL SPACE TYPHOON

[orchid void]

CL3 Appo, CL4 Baron, response?

[versed zodiac]

this is like

the only ygo image I have worth posting

[orchid void]

thank u ash blossom

Anyway Mage

[queen heron]

wizards....

[sacred viper]

🧙‍♂️ 💥

[orchid void]

i cast Power Word: Scrunch (Space 3, Fraying)

[clear delta]

That's awakening. There's no consensus

Wrong mage rules

[orchid void]

I think we covered that then drifted to awakening magic in gen so

[clear delta]

I headcanon both laws are true, mages just like tge supernal better.
All supernatural stuff, including supernal, affects reality from a different direction
Difference from playing a game normally and using consolecommands or installing mods

[clear delta]

Oops. Normally discussions don't go so fast here.
Also, you spelled mastigos wrong while explaining them

[orchid void]

probably i was kind of at work and walking to look busy

magistos yah

[clear delta]

Reminded of the funny fact that a bunch of mages that dealt with spirits from other planets thought celestial bodies were crystals, and the spirits never told them the truth.
Sleepers proved them wrong. They got pissed and, while accepting it, kept using crystals in their rituals

[clear delta]

Yeah. As the lore evolved over the books.
There used to be another version of the world, with a mage civilization. The exarchs gained rulership of the world of truth, casting down and imprisoning some of the old gods, and twisted reality into what it is now. It's believed the exarchs were kings who ascended through a celestial ladder and then broke it, but it is possible they had always been supernal beings who managed to beat the old gods of truth and then changed reality.

The ruins of those Times Before, are strange. They are contradictory mixes of the previous versions of history mixed with this one

[fair jungle]

Did Paradox said anything about a new edition of Mage?
Because it sounds cool as all hell but I really need an module to help
And while on that topic, would old modules for Werewolf be able to convert to V5?

[clear delta]

New mage is currently on second edition, it feels too recent to change to third.
Old mage still doesn't have a fifth edition like other old world ganes. Currently, the most recent is 20th anniversary edition, which is noted to have some issues

[fair jungle]

What are the main issues with 20th ae?
Would you recommend 2e then?

[clear delta]

New and old mage are different experiences. I think it'd be a matter of taste. Though some old mage players do import the magic rules from new mage.

20th ae has rules issues

Don't remember well, but. Contradicting or not well explained.
Also some issues in lore and content I think.
Also, at one point, the author says Abrahamic religions want to cause the endtimes in real life.

I don't remember everything, and writing all of it would just devolve into negativity I think

[fair jungle]

.
Oh
So I think I will stick with 2e

[clear delta]

Aight. Gnostic truths and mages being bastards for ya.
The fiction in 2e corebook was nice and tragic.

[fair jungle]

Grimdark

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1342620/Werewolf_The_Apocalypse__Heart_of_the_Forest/ oh btw 100% recommend, it's a fun way to learn about werewolf oWoD lore

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[fair jungle]

The Gnostic truths are a fun way to make your player think outside of the box to play Mage, it was a smart move

[clear delta]

Yeah. New mage lore is fun.

[fair jungle]

2016
And Tome of the Pentacle was released last year

yeah 2e is still getting new stuff, fun

[clear delta]

Yup. New book introduced some group of mages who take care of an apartment complex with dimensional distortions

And added lore about an ancient demon summoning mage queen

[fair jungle]

Now to find a group to actually play
Otherwise it will go to the pile of "Wow cool lore , but i will never play the base game"

But yeah, I am glad 2e is still getting new stuff!

[clear delta]

Write fics of your blorbos

[fair jungle]

Capital!

honestly yeah is the best , is like my sis that wanted to play Vampire v5 but our group just
Was not very interested with it
She still made an Nosferatu girl that it's also a v-tuber and drew her for fun

[clear delta]

Great!

There's a seer in new mage that's a conservative youtuber

[fair jungle]

it's not a Camarila breach if it is your bat fursona on the screen

[fair jungle]

Hah! Sounds fun, can you elaborate?

[clear delta]

Basically, Pangloss (named after a book character tgat insisted this is the best of all possible worlds abd improvement is futile) created a youtuber identity that repackages traditional dogmas of society as biotruths

He's a follower of the Father, exarch of prime, representing rulership by dogma.
By stepping outside his groups usual methods of relying on distorted religious dogma, he's a bit rejected by them.
But hopes to prove the usefulness of his methods

[fair jungle]

So basically priest that distort the dogma to fit into his mage knowledge?

[clear delta]

He's also a Tyrian Archon, a legacy (specialized mages) that sorta focus on kingship? Gotta search

[clear delta]

He's part of a group that usually would do that, but he's trying to prove repackaging dogma as pseudoscience is also a good method.
Sexism, racism. Kinda steps into the domain of the Raptor (exarch of life, says the way things are is natural and inescapable), but the exarchs are overlapping components of tyranny.

He preaches to obey tradition and authority, including him, as he sees himself as possessing a divine right of kings. He just thinks the message is more important than how it's expressed, so he hides faith and dogma in seemingly atheistic pseudoscience

His nimbus (magical aura) may show mathematical underpinings of the universe, make you feel the world has a will and is malevolent towards you, and arrange things and movements nearby into orderly shapes.

[fair jungle]

He has massive Pucci vibes

[clear delta]

Lmao

Wasn't Pucci's thing ||predetermination for happiness||?
There's actually a seer group for that

[fair jungle]

Would that give him True Faith as well?
or better not even mix those mechanics

[fair jungle]

Mostly ||I will reshape destiny as my lord Dio is right and correct||
And kill the Joestars of course

[clear delta]

Oh, I see

Anyway, the Chronologues. Seers who want to make the universe a deterministic machine in the name of tge Prophet

[fair jungle]

Is a mage
still rellies on a wrist watch for time

Pleb /j

[clear delta]

They are a group within the horologion, a ministry of the Prophet, that controls through routine. So as to numb the mind and force people into a seemingly unbreakable structure fot their lives

The lady in the image is Phemonoe, seen as the chosen of Prophet. Her grouo founded the Chronologues, and are developing a partoally magical precognitive app in their start-up, to make sleepers follow their set schedules

[fair jungle]

So to enforce the order and let sleepers become even more drones

[clear delta]

Yup. The clients are told it will create a perfect schedule. But it's meant to help destroy free will

The first attainment of the Chronologues creates a curse/blessing on the target. They have either bad or good timing, shifting based on tge target taking some action the caster defined

Tge second, lets them analyze a targets future, watching as it shifts every 5 minutes. Once started, even if the target gets out of range, it can keep going

[clear delta]

A fan take on them. Parts in blue is text from the books
https://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/mage-the-awakening/1443819-new-2e-legacies-expanded?p=1464237#post1464237

Always on schedule, that one. Heard he's using some fancy new time-keeping calendar app or something. He convinced me to try it too, and I'm divided on it. It's nice, but it's... too accurate. Too exact. I feel like I'm being treated as a machine. I'm a girl, not a clock! But it's also hard to just give it up, since it does work...

[fair jungle]

That's wild, i love it

[patent talon]

I think a fun concept would be an Arcanthus who focuses on destinies, going around breaking tragic destinies and trying to install better ones. A real meddler

[clear delta]

Ah, well intentioned hubris, fun

Watch the disasters happen

Digression. Idea for mind spell from a video game

Fill memory bubble:
The mage copies the subject's memories into an astral vessel, a bundle of astral ephemera often referred to as bubbles but may take many shapes.
+1 reach: the memory of the subject is suppressed
Death or spirit: the bubble may be put in other twilights. It may also be manifested.
Summon memory bubble: may summon astral memories into this world. Alternatively, call forth blank astral ephemera. (Also thought of just summoning the concepts of books or similar to write into)

[patent talon]

If you're not making Mage with inbuilt hubris, are you really playing the game?

[clear delta]

All this power and cosmic truths
All these consequences to your actions

[heady kestrel]

any other good songs yall think would go great on the Playlist?

[fair jungle]

BECOME THE EMP GRENADE

[versed zodiac]

castigate the enemies of the godhead servants of the Worm!

[fair jungle]

Garous are awesome but also frustrating
They can't agree on spit XD

[fair jungle]

BECOME The murder blender

[queen heron]

I've had fun with 2e!

its better when focusing on wizards as academics or mystics, and less as detectives ime

pick something to Not Be Normal About, throw yourself into the mysteries, let it change you and change it in turn

[clear delta]

And mage has a lot of stuff to be obsessed with

Reality stalkers

[queen heron]

its best when you can use the setting of the game to say things about the truth, or what it means for you

[clear delta]

Love cracks in reality abd exploratiom

[queen heron]

its not as explicitly spelled out in core

but the table basically will define stuff about the Supernal while playing

what Fire's really about at my table might not look exactly like yours

[clear delta]

Or create your own supernal gods

[queen heron]

mhm

you want some self-motivated characters

Mages have a lot of power and information gathering, but that just means they start looking at bigger stuff

[clear delta]

Maybe someone who's obsessed with ruins

[queen heron]

less "who killed this guy", more
"What builds the Underworld to look like that?" or "Where do souls go or come from?" or "Whats the core of funerary rites? what underpins them?"

though I've done some more grounded and political games, and more reactive games

and they were still fun!

[fair jungle]

So a mage plot that's basically goes " We must find Azathoth(or equivalent) to help him keep sleeping or else our reality will break in half" would be for a 'high level' party of mages or not really their thing?

[queen heron]

yeah that could work

I know a group whos high level plot involved replacing the Aeon of Forces (who wanted to retire) with a great Star-Devouring Serpent, and then running into some issues with that

meanwhile my highest gnosis mage mostly had a plot involving relationship drama with their ex-mentor, and serving as the scariest motherfucker in the Guardians and how that was not healthy for her

games where the cabal has a theme or common goal tend to work better

some underpinning motif, shared obsession space, multiple ways of looking at the same thing, all working for the same beliefs - whatever

[fair jungle]

How do you balance the encounters /rolls?
Because, coming from a lore standpoint, is a bit hard to imagine the combat

[clear delta]

High level beings work more by plot than rules.

[queen heron]

combat becomes more about how you solve problems than if you can solve problems

[clear delta]

So rank 6+ beings and archmages have reduced interaction with rules (except that book for playing archmages)

[queen heron]

mages still have to cast spells

jumping one with "person-shaped hole glitching through Time to move superfast" is still gonna throw them for a loop

[clear delta]

Mages have no defense passives. They need to axtivate mage armor

[spice abyss]

I mean, while this is true.

[clear delta]

Though legacies can make them durable

[queen heron]

of all the gamelines, Mage is one of the easiest to break rules for as the GM

[spice abyss]

You can just keep Mage Armor up through the entire day.

So yeah, technically you have to activate Mage Armor

But unless you know their schedule

It's basically just always there.

[queen heron]

or defensive spells, yeah
but
what I'd focus on is like
thats also establishing something about the character

you are the type of wizard who has defensive spells up 24/7

(also the Long Term Nimbus and way spells can warp is GM-fiat to make magic do Weird Things to keep stuff interesting)

[spice abyss]

If you're a mage who doesn't keep their defensive wards up as often as possible, you're begging for trouble.

You're a walking weirdness detector who's driven to poke their nose into things.

On a lazy day, you can effortlessly piss off something by just being a bit curious.

On a bad day, there's the forces of opression and unreality.

[fair jungle]

On a fun day, you dab on the camarilla

[queen heron]

but its also totally fair for other wizards to see you as the equivalent of a doomsday prepper

or, idk, a hunter who sets up an active minefield in their front lawn

[spice abyss]

That's not being a doomsday prepper, that's acknowledging how dangerous your lifestyle is.

[versed zodiac]

on a fun day you dab on the camarilla
Not Advised

[queen heron]

and with wizards you could say, well, why stop there?
spells can be dispelled, the world is full of so many threats - why not seek a more... permanent solution

and now you're a Lich

[fair jungle]

It's not advised to be a mage tho

[orchid void]

You keep basic wards and such up and ready

Prepper mages live is sub-dimensional sancta

[fair jungle]

do tell

[versed zodiac]

screwing with the local vampire population is funny but it's also bad for your life expectancy

[orchid void]

That’s sorta the scale

[clear delta]

Too bad you can't use a legacy to turn into a highly durable doll.
Well, you can. But you may be seen as discarding your humanity even if you don't make yourself immortal

[spice abyss]

Spirits and ghosts exist, there's other wizards working for the likes of the Exarchs, there's werewolves, vampires, etc.

[queen heron]

Lich is just the political term (derogatory) in CofD for mages who seek immortality

not just the Time 2 "I dont age while this spell is up", kind

[fair jungle]

Good point

[spice abyss]

Being a mage makes you realize how dangerous the world actually is, and only absolute naive madmen try to raw-dog reality without proper protection.

[clear delta]

Immortal mages. It seems archon is the term for liches that are spirits/ghost/astral beings

[fair jungle]

Oh so not actual D&D style Liches

[queen heron]

thats fair!

[versed zodiac]

I mean one could go that route

[queen heron]

I think it says something about a wizard who brings wards to like a consillium meeting though

[versed zodiac]

doing it D&D skeleton man style is classy

[orchid void]

Examples of liches from canon
The Stone-Temple Pilots, stone-age mystics who are trying to astrally project into the Supernal Realm through the stars, which they believe are holes in reality.

[queen heron]

its like showing up with a gun prominently in your holster

[clear delta]

Well, the tremere are soul obsessed reaper liches

[spice abyss]

That's the most dangerous place to be, of course I'm coming with wards!

[orchid void]

They've gone quite mad with age but they return to their barrows to realign their ritual signs and Get Back To Plumbing The Astral

[versed zodiac]

oWoD Tremere, of course, being the funny magic vampires

[orchid void]

There's also the like, Ghost Magi who runs a couple of cells for the Free Council, I think his name is Koschei?

[queen heron]

(some of them for sure are dnd liches who've shoved their soul into their skeleton or something though)

[versed zodiac]

and also the guy who genuinely thought he'd diablerize an Antediluvian

[fair jungle]

The mages turned into vampires that now does not magic with their pyramid scheme
That got shattered in v5

[clear delta]

Oh, never saw those!

[versed zodiac]

what a buster! terrible idea!

[clear delta]

No that's different. Owod tremere and nwod tremere

[queen heron]

Its derogatory in the Pentacle - default protag wizards - because its seen as 'giving up' compared to chasing Ascension

you're 'settling'

[versed zodiac]

oWoD Tremere are the magic vampires, nWoD Tremere are the kooky skeleton men

[fair jungle]

fun
But how do they even walk on earth? Or at this rate they just astral walk all the time and go full Nagash?

[heady kestrel]

Though much like the Rapt, they aren’t inherently evil despite being left handed

[queen heron]

probably depends on Lich - its not describing a specific way to become immortal

[heady kestrel]

You can be great buddies with a Lich

[queen heron]

just people who go for it

[heady kestrel]

Who isn’t shit

[versed zodiac]

some liches just ball

[heady kestrel]

Because plenty are also shit

[fair jungle]

O and N are so confusing
ok
Which WoD Hunter the Parenting and v5 uses?

[versed zodiac]

HtP and the 5e versions of games are oWoD

[spice abyss]

Old World of Darkness, not Chronicles.

[heady kestrel]

Like there is one type of Lich who does that shit the Doctor Octupud does in that one comic and just uses mind magic to swap who is in who’s body right before they die

[versed zodiac]

which is now just World of Darkness, because "nWoD" has been rebranded as Chronicles of Darkness

[queen heron]

oh yeah, for genre reasons and Drama™️ being immortal in cofd is supposed to be

• costly
• fragile
• unethical

pick one or two

[clear delta]

Yeah. Leader of the parliament of the needle. Astral and ghost lich, right? Mostly know him from Dave's actual play.
I think the demon queen sorta counts too? She set her personality to return in her reincarnation

[heady kestrel]

Leaving their old man body behind to die

[fair jungle]

.
So saying nWoD and CoD is the same thing atm?

[heady kestrel]

Don’t forgot “makes you not a human anymore”

[versed zodiac]

CofD is nWoD yes

[spice abyss]

yep

[fair jungle]

Alright, perfect
now I am way less confused, thank you very much

[heady kestrel]

Like the guys who kill themselves and possess their own corpse using death magic

[versed zodiac]

A lot of the Mage talk in here is CofD oriented

[heady kestrel]

They are just a ghost who can do magic

Who has a body

And like that isn’t inherently bad

But your a ghost now

[clear delta]

Magash?

[versed zodiac]

they do be ghostly with it

[heady kestrel]

I forget what they are called I just remember them being mentioned off hand

[clear delta]

Thought you already knew that

[versed zodiac]

do CofD vampires have Tenebration

[fair jungle]

https://tenor.com/view/yoshi-dead-death-mario-stairs-gif-25001313

[versed zodiac]

can they just kinda

do the thing

[fair jungle]

Is Mage the Awakening 2e oWoD or nWoD?

[versed zodiac]

and force ghostwizards to work for them

[heady kestrel]

Chronciles of darkness

[versed zodiac]

Awakening is CofD

Ascension is WoD

[fair jungle]

got it

[heady kestrel]

nWoD is just a alternative way to say chronciles

[versed zodiac]

basically there's game lines for CofD and WoD and they have different verbs after the "the" in the name

so Vampire the Masquerade is the WoD version of Vampire

and Vampire the Requiem is the CofD version

[clear delta]

Yeah, I thought it'd be clearer to say nwod to differentiate

[queen heron]

kinda - its a bloodline devotion built off the core disciplines

[versed zodiac]

for Mage it's Mage the Ascension for WoD and Mage the Awakening for CofD

or MtAs vs MtAw

it's annoying that Ascension and Awakening start with the same letter because for the other games it's a lot less ambiguous

[heady kestrel]

If I ever run mage the awakening and I am gonna use the most bizarre fucking antagonists

Like I wanna make the Mole Men come up

[versed zodiac]

VtM vs VtR is pretty easy to tell apart

same with WtA (Werewolf the Apocalypse, the WoD game) vs WtF (Werewolf the Forsaken, the CofD game)

[queen heron]

you could do 2e and 20th

if someones running Ascension 2nd edition you're cooked though

[versed zodiac]

if someone's running Ascension 2e they're cooked

cooked in the brain

[queen heron]

lmao

[fair jungle]

So
wait for Ascension 5v?

[queen heron]

I kinda want to see what they do with it

awakening and ascension are different though

and Awakening is pretty much complete for now - no new books planned

get whichever one speaks to you more and go wild

[fair jungle]

So the one from 2023 was the last one for Awa?

[queen heron]

Tome? probably officially, yeah

Dave, Awakening's 2e line dev, is working on a ST Vault Seer book

but if it completes, it wont be published through Onyx Path

[queen heron]

sometimes its fun to get a little gonzo with it

short lived game I GM'd had a core mystery of a number station that was literally undead - ghost signal

[clear delta]

Get Spiral from Nameless and Accursed. Give her anime moves

[queen heron]

clawing its way back through the airwaves, anchoring itself on the minds of whoever was listening

TRUE

one time a cabal I was in fought a literal Megalodon pulled through a time whirlpool while on a sailboat

that ended with a huge-reach forces spell to literally beach it

this same session I jojo-punched a ghost after our death mage pushed me into twilight

[fair jungle]

You done it proud

[clear delta]

Oh, werewolf has a big sea monster Idigam
Think I'll tag what world I talk about in each comment
(Cofd)

[fair jungle]

At this point, yes.
It feels like mixing talking Warhammer Fantasy with Age of Sigmar in the same convo
but somehow even more confusing

Or even D&D and Pathfinder

So the evil spirits in cheap fast food hamburger is entirely WoD

[clear delta]

(Cofd) Oh, mage idea. Studying evolution and self replication outside life, mage makes self replicating objects, or memories in the astral.
Accidentally turns into a problem, she suppresses them and thinks the trouble is over. But there are still poppulations reproducing.

[fair jungle]

lol it can end up in the mage creating an alternative reality where evolution got fucked

Or even like those tales where they create a rapidly evolving civilization in a microscopic form
Like that time Bender became god

[clear delta]

Uh, dunno why it'd create a reality, unless you mean a timeline where the creations go out of control?
Or creating an astral realm out of false memories multiplying? The latter is pretty cool

[fair jungle]

"The latter is pretty coom"
The more I learn about mage the more i love it

[clear delta]

Cool

[fair jungle]

Oh sorry I though coom was short for common

[clear delta]

Damn it. Keep popping out typos here. I thought the problem was the screen covering, but still bad after replacing.

[fair jungle]

It's fine really

thoo, do you think it would be hard to adapt 20 anivesarry werewolf the apocalypse adventurers to v5?

[versed zodiac]

Not too difficult

[fair jungle]

good!

[heady kestrel]

Sending my mages up against Knights of St. George and Lower depths monsters sealed away by old Atlantis

[fair jungle]

Send them to the moon to fight the Saint AND the dragon as you discover they are plotting together for years since the legend took hold

[heady kestrel]

Oh the Knights of St. George are a hunter conspiracy that uses abyss magic to kill mages

[fair jungle]

A
PAin

[heady kestrel]

Because fuck them, this paradox nonsense is gonna end the world

[fair jungle]

Not a lie

Like
Yes
Is like Senador Armstrong. He have amazing points nad he's not wrong
But the way he goes abotu trying to solve it? Completely wrong

[heady kestrel]

They are like cool knights who summon demons that generate anti magic fields

[fair jungle]

Ah
Word Bearers

[versed zodiac]

ayo

hold up

what amazing points does Senator Armstrong make exactly

that the post-Patriots USA is fucked up? everyone already knew that, he's actively contributing to that problem

[fair jungle]

And corruption is running rampant and a lot of laws and political power goes to feed teh already rich/powerful

[versed zodiac]

yeah but like

he is that rich/powerful

[orchid void]

he isn’t going to fix that bc he’s an insane libertarian

[versed zodiac]

in every way he is the guy he says he's gonna beat up

[fair jungle]

Yes he's a hipocrite, Raiden calls out on him a lot

[orchid void]

anyway

world of darkness

[fair jungle]

PenteX is making me eat THE EVIL BURGER

[versed zodiac]

biting into the crazy hamburger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVbtFP40E50
this too is the work of pentex somehow

[fair jungle]

They are adding demons in the water and makign the frogs posssesed

that can actually be a plot for a WtA plot

[versed zodiac]

I mean

they literally created a Mockery Breed of frog-person shifters

[fair jungle]

.

https://tenor.com/view/cool-foldable-chair-jason-momoa-sitting-gif-17558052

[versed zodiac]

they're called the Anurana

The project was a failure but they're still around, usually in polluted lakes and rivers around Pentex facilities

[fair jungle]

'Homid Anurana begin with Rage 3, Gnosis 1, Willpower 5'
Ok for a split second I though it was a crossover between mage and werewolf but no, Gnosis (WtA) and Gnosis (MTAw) at two different things

[versed zodiac]

Gnosis is a Werewolf thing in WoD and a Mage thing in CofD because everything has to be fucking confusing

[fair jungle]

Head hurts sometimes

[timber talon]

Why are werewolves gnostic again

[orchid void]

Because it sounded cool in the 90s

WtA is not a consistent game

[clear delta]

He thinks kindness and altruism are faje and meant to hold tge strong back.
He talks about letting people fight for ideologies and be free but keeps invalidating raiden's beliefs and identity, trying to cram him into his ideal of the strong

[fair jungle]

Yeah, like I said, some great points
Massive hypocrite and like you said Raiden calls him out on it

Which is a thing bad people do a lot, say 'yes we all have this problem, now let me solve it by being evil as hell'

[orchid void]

Wax, please follow up this kinda thought in #video-game-discussion

I was trying to keep us on topic n all

[fair jungle]

fair, pardon

[clear delta]

Oh, self-replicating dolls

Oh sorry

[fair jungle]

'WASP TALONS
The Garou can fire their claws like darts, inflicting dam-
age on a faraway foe as if they’d been face to face. Doing
so also leaves the Garou’s hands or paws a bloody mess,
as well as without claws until the self-inflicted wound is
healed. A wasp-spirit grants this Gift.'

Oh my god

[grave gulch]

question

would count binface me an actual lad from space

in WOD

[versed zodiac]

Could be

but he'd probably still be a human, just a human mage from space

[grave gulch]

Im making him a space mage

[heady kestrel]

Annukai are so fun in mage the awakening

I love an evil alternate timeline

[versed zodiac]

anyone got the MtAs Earth simulator story

[fair jungle]

binface?

[grave gulch]

Satirical politician

[fair jungle]

I love it

[fair jungle]

'ENERGIZE
By channeling their own Rage into it the Garou is able
to power any functional device as if it was plugged in or
fuelled up. While this does not allow them to repair a
completely wrecked machine, they can push even dam-
aged equipment to work, if only for a few moments.'

Get so PISSED you become a battery for your laptop

[crystal fern]

formerly known as Lord Buckethead until there was some wrangling over who owned the character

[fair jungle]

o

[spice abyss]

Fueled up

So a flamethrower powered by rage.

[digital siren]

dumb meme i saw of wod

[spice abyss]

But you could in Requiem. >:D

[heady kestrel]

Oh do they have a good one for science-vampires?

[spice abyss]

I mean, there is the Ordo Dracul.

[heady kestrel]

Well the Ordo Dracul are more about vampire-science than science-vampires

That’s like forbidden blood alchemy as opposed to

“This vampire originated from a weird medical procedure and tends to be bad at the more esoteric parts of vampirism”

Like the actual problem with a Morbius style vampire in vampire games is that Morbius in the comics is charecterized by not actually being a vampire, just something incredibly vampire adjacent that gets wrapped up in vampire problems

[keen bluff]

new character idea

[keen bluff]

so thin-blood then /j

[heady kestrel]

A thin-blood with a weird backstory might work yeah