World of Darkness

[queen heron]

besides like

gaia

[mighty zephyr]

Luna did not make the trinity

All we really know is that Luna and Gaia are "siblings"

[orchid void]

lilah's werewolf the apocalypse lore is from the fucking nineties, kids

do not believe a word i say about any of it

[queen heron]

just saying shit based on half-remembered legends is true werewolf posting tbh

[mighty zephyr]

LMAO

[orchid void]

look the reason i don't like werewolf the apocalypse (1e) is because the book very plainly states that i should have died as a baby and it is only due to an abberation in the "Proper Cycles of the World" that i was currently alive to read their shitty book.

[mighty zephyr]

Yup!

That good ol' fashion WtA Eugenics

(That is a Yup! that WtA was awful not that you should've died as baby I hope that is evident)

[orchid void]

good old fashioned wta eugenics dressed in neopaganism and dolphin environmentalism!

Did They Fix This For The Other Books Oh Please G-d Tell Me They Tried To Fix This

[mighty zephyr]

Well they've fixed this for W5 for the most part

Eugenics are no longer a thing

[grave gulch]

werewolves in owod are indeed weak to silver

at least in the hunter book they are

[mighty zephyr]

No they are

I'm asking WHY they are.

[grave gulch]

dunno

[mighty zephyr]

But yeah Silver Fangs still have the vibe and are stated to be a rough "Hereditary Ruler caste" of the Garou Nation despite werewolf not being genetic anymore

or tribes

[clear delta]

Oh, they straight up had eugenics?

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah

[grave gulch]

so because of that i was wondering if other changers would be weak to silver as well...we don't have lots of info on that now do we?

[mighty zephyr]

"Modern medicine is letting too much of the weak survive"

[clear delta]

Ishtar christ

[mighty zephyr]

Only if they had Luna's blessing

[versed zodiac]

weakness to silver is a bane inherited from Luna

[mighty zephyr]

Wereravens for instance are weak to Gold since that's the Sun's metal.

[orchid void]

yeah werewolf 1e thinks that modern medicine is part of why the world is bad now. Because its part of the Weaver/Order and not Wyld/Chaos

[versed zodiac]

most of the changers have it; corax do not

[grave gulch]

So Luna is a thing in owod too?

[versed zodiac]

yes

[mighty zephyr]

Ye

[grave gulch]

Kay

[mighty zephyr]

She's just weirdly on the sideline

[orchid void]

yeah, cause oWoD is also Exalted

[grave gulch]

So a wereshark probably doesnt have it?

[mighty zephyr]

Despite seemingly giving the Garou all their best powers.

[clear delta]

In cofd, the eugenics werewolves are the villains, at least

[versed zodiac]

W5e seems very, like, oriented towards casting off the shadow of W1e and saying "mm yeah the oldhead asshole werewolves are Bad Actually and werewolves definitely did some things wrong"

[orchid void]

so the Celestial are still around with Sol, Luna, the Maidens, in some "ha ha look" ways until they abandoned that idea and didn't try to use it ever again

[mighty zephyr]

The Maidens really don't turn up much\

[clear delta]

Maidens?

[mighty zephyr]

The rest of the planets in the solar system

[grave gulch]

What kind of weaknesses could you exploit? If you tip them woukd they fall unconscious for example?

[orchid void]

its why oWoD Hunter (The Reckoning/Imbued) were like

[versed zodiac]

weresharks are of Luna

[orchid void]

baby solars in the day

[versed zodiac]

they have a silver weakness

[grave gulch]

oh ok

[orchid void]

owod is weird

[clear delta]

How fun is exalted?

[versed zodiac]

they also have the weakness of being weird about weresharks that leave the water, culturally

[mighty zephyr]

I wanna play 3E very bad

[versed zodiac]

I have heard many, many complaints about Exalted

mostly in that there are many Correct Options during character creation and also some that just permanently fuck your character up

[spice abyss]

So, Exalted 3e is fun*

But also it's an incomplete ruleset because of dev drama.

Like, it's literally unfinished out of spite.

[versed zodiac]

WW is not in the business of giving people the rules they ask for, but the rules they deem appropriate

especially if the rules people ask for are "please fix this broken part of your game"

[grave gulch]

so like...drying up and stuff?

[mighty zephyr]

We do have #1161699000836165714

[versed zodiac]

no they're just dickheads about it socially

[grave gulch]

oh i misunderstood your statement

sorry

still, pretty excited to have the wereshark running around causing trouble, probably wont have the players fight him for a while

[versed zodiac]

like they deadass kill Betweeners because... reasons

[grave gulch]

isn't there a thing that they didn't have a lot of contact with humans? like at all? so they just see us as food?

[queen heron]

also why old changeling bounced off me

[mighty zephyr]

I'm finding it super crazy btw

That the edition wars of Old World and CofD is essentially

Old Heads: Read 1st edition of (x), decided it was bad, never touched the system again

New Heads: Never read 1st edition of (x), only read 2nd, cannot fathom why anyone plays anything else

[grave gulch]

[queen heron]

is that 1st and 2nd for Old and Cofd separately

or is CofD the 2nd

[mighty zephyr]

Chronicles had a 1st and 2nd edition

and the 2nd edition of everything they made is basically just universally better

[queen heron]

agreed

Id argue 2e improved over its run too

[mighty zephyr]

yeah

[queen heron]

conditions got a little neater (like Geists “dead”)

deviants funkyness

web of pain and krewe rules

[mighty zephyr]

but I'm saying Old Heads make their assumptions based of 1e while most CofD people just don't know what they're talking about

[queen heron]

I wasnt even like a real person yet when Awakening 1e dropped lmao

19 years ago!

[clear delta]

Oh, I was five then

[queen heron]

About the same

[midnight grotto]

I hopped on during 1st and I think it's a mistake to write it off, tbh

2nd is better overall but it's also hindered by budgetary and logistical restrictions that 1st didn't have to deal with

[mighty zephyr]

Which is why I think 1E stands as a really good repository of ideas for 2e games

I just don't think the mechanics don't really work for the most part

[midnight grotto]

I also think--and this is coming from an incomplete view of things, so take it with a grain of salt--that the adaptations kinda became less reliably good after the holy trinity came out (V, W, M)

[mighty zephyr]

?

in 1e or 2e

[midnight grotto]

2E, I mean

[mighty zephyr]

I disagree

But I'd ask for what games you mean degrade specifically

[spice abyss]

I don't necessarily like the Changeling changes myself.

Geist I will say is at least edited.

[midnight grotto]

2E Changeling kinda just slides off my brain where the predecessor dug its claws in, Promethean has a lot of cool stuff but makes some big decisions that get a little too prescriptive, and Geist kinda fucked up the sub-splats or whatever you call Clans etc

[spice abyss]

Promethean 2e is neither better or worse. The two are still equally as hard to play.

[midnight grotto]

As someone who played PtC1 for years I generally contest that reputation; I only playtested 2 so I can't say if it's meaningfully worse off in the long run but I remember really chafing at the whole "you gotta advance by filling these archetypes" thing.

I think 2's overall focus on your character changing over time is challenging but bold, however the execution could be better.

[spice abyss]

I will definitely state that I do not think Promethean is mechanically challenging.

It's generally approachable in that regard.

[queen heron]

I was gonna say yeah

Ive seen this take around for Changeling

[midnight grotto]

Also, I've had some time to reflect on my one central critique of 2, which is that I think it's fundamentally hindered by the fact that it had to pretend it was just an expansion for 1 at first. It clearly wants to be a more narrative game but it's wired to an older-fashioned skeleton, which causes some awkwardness in many places.

Like Conditions. Conditions are a huge part of 2's identity but the way they're mechanically integrated doesn't feel like they're core, it feels like they're strapped on top of the core. Their role in the system seems to shift from book to book.

Some of this comes down to mouthfeel, it's hard to articulate more precisely from where I stand rn.

[midnight grotto]

Oh I meant like, it's kinda challenging to the player from a narrative standpoint. Vampire doesn't go "okay but you can't be Ordo Dracul forever, you should at least dabble with Invictus and/or Circle of the Crone."

[queen heron]

I can definitely agree to the first part broadly

[spice abyss]

To say that Promethean is narratively challenging is an understatement.

[queen heron]

a lot of stress in CofD is that weight of previous expectations

[spice abyss]

It very much wants to play a hell of a game.

[queen heron]

2e stepping away from a lot of OwoD stuff really helped there

But its still straining in places

[spice abyss]

Like, I don't even know who I'd be comfortable getting that much in my feelings with.

[midnight grotto]

It's not a very meaningful example but I remember squinting at WtF2 having "Scary Motherfucker" as a form trait and thinking "you think you're Apocalypse World or something?"

"everyone should take turns developing human members of their Pack" Forsaken 2 wants to be a storygame so bad but it's a system with 9 character attributes and derived statistics

[clear delta]

Prescriptive?

[midnight grotto]

(I love Forsaken 2, to be clear, it's just got some awkward spots that say something interesting about the shifting tabletop scene)

[spice abyss]

Wants to be a storygame

It is though? Like. Stats do not stop that.

Everything about it is really pushing on those story buttons.

[midnight grotto]

It's been ages and might have changed since I played it, but in PtC2 each... Refinement? That's what the different philosophy splats were called, right? Anyway progressing through them involves playing into different archetypes, pretending to be different kinds of people, and they're pretty specific. It feels like putting a lot on you to play your personal PC in certain ways.

[midnight grotto]

I was leaning into some language I don't necessarily prescribe to for the purposes of a bit, sorry. I mean it wants to be something that's more story-first when it's got a more 90s-00s design philosophy at its mechanical core, it doesn't feel quite natural.

[queen heron]

See how resistance atrributes are used in CofD versus even like idk, Scion

[midnight grotto]

It's like, World of Darkness has always been driven by character drama as both a carrot and stick, but there's still a world between it and, say, Monsterhearts in terms of how it approaches that.

And from a more abstract tonal sense I think it's not indie enough to pull off having "motherfucker" as a stat that gets printed directly onto a character sheet template, lol

I guess if I'm going to be mean there's an awkward vibe to some of 2E where it feels like they want to get back on the bleeding edge of "roleplaying games are about feelings and shit now instead of just killing orcs" but what that is has shifted and they can't fully reconcile the new paradigm with the old one

Again, I really like the system and most(?) of the splats, it just has a weird quirk to it that sticks in my craw. Which I think is something a feature of every White Wolf game.

[mighty zephyr]

I wanna run a PbP CofD game

i know it's doomed to failure but god I wish

[mighty zephyr]

Like I just want a slow-burn but moving game that I can run on the side as a quiet hobby

without it dying

[mighty zephyr]

Lord help me I'm doing it

[patent talon]

Good luck! If you're recruiting at all, I'd love to take a crack at it!

[midnight grotto]

Honestly there are many, many worse systems for it

[little light]

I think it could work pretty well, what system will you be running?

[mighty zephyr]

It's looking like Mage

Though if I can handle that I may allow a Zoo game

[little light]

Zoo is when you cross gamelines right?

[mighty zephyr]

Ye

[little light]

I could never find much on those when looking at blogs but they seem fascinating

[midnight grotto]

never heard it called that but it's a funny term

[orchid void]

mage mage mage Mage

MAGE

[sacred viper]

🧙‍♂️

[orchid void]

time to learn how social combat works so Lucy can be a Problem

[midnight grotto]

social combat never quite clicked for me but I'm intrigued by the possibilities

my group tried it once and kinda fell back on the more traditional approach almost instantly

[mighty zephyr]

I think I'd wanna try the debate rules from Requiem

[orchid void]

A lot of Mind spells talk about the door’s system

So that’s what i was gonna go figure out

[mighty zephyr]

Ahhh gotcha

[orchid void]

I just figured that was part of the social combat since

You know

Mind Arcana

[mighty zephyr]

It's less "social combat" and more like

[orchid void]

look.

compel emotions or “advanced lying” is a useful tool alongside memory hole (or expert lying)

im gonna guard that veil bro

[patent talon]

Where's that psychological tricks meme that's like "introduce yourself as the man who never lies" "lie"

Guardians_of_the_veil.jpg

[mighty zephyr]

The Mage game concept has been decided

The year is 1999, and on January 1st, 12:00AM, 100 Sleepers Awoke within the first 10 minutes of the year.

Every Mage in the tristate area of NYC is shitting their pants because there's no way that can be a good thing

[little light]

https://tenor.com/view/scooby-doo-scoobydoo-uhoh-ruhroh-gif-19389191

[orchid void]

lucy: girl help the labyrinth is fucking under attack

[versed zodiac]

girl help the demons are coming out of the walls

[orchid void]

also someone help me understand how the fuck many yantras and tools you start with at chargen

and/or why it wants me to go two dots deep to get another tool for a faction

[mighty zephyr]

You start with one dedicated tool

Yantras are not a Thing You Have, they are things you can use for a spell

You can use 2 per spell

https://i.imgur.com/2bYeiTm.png

[orchid void]

Okay right yeah

But what about Path and Order tools and the Tools factions getcha, what's up with those,,,

[mighty zephyr]

If you have these things you can use 'em

[orchid void]

Hokay, so it seems like Faction Status saying "invest two merit dots to get a tool"

is "you can now use this as an applicable object"?

[mighty zephyr]

Yea

[orchid void]

hokay

[mighty zephyr]

Which merit are you seeing for using it as a Yantra

@orchid void

[orchid void]

tome of the pentacle, pg 90

and specifically for Lucy

[mighty zephyr]

Then yeah how it works is that once you get 2 dots you can start using puzzles as Yantras

While Guardians normally use masks, veils, and stuff like that

[orchid void]

Yeah fair! I also gotta wait for my Legacy to get in on some Funnier Tools for her

[barren vortex]

ohhh im gonna take a crack at this soon

gonna make an alchemist

[orchid void]

lucy's dedicated tools is her Lament Configuration

[orchid void]

you can do so many funny things with a philospher's stone

such as everyone's favorite spell i turned your bones into radium

[barren vortex]

Matter is a very funny domain

[orchid void]

They’re all funny domains is the trick

[barren vortex]

Yes

[orchid void]

i still think prime is extra funny

but what does prime do lilah? does it help you understand the Truth, the langauge with which the universe describes itself?
wrong. universal counterspell.

[sacred viper]

Blue mana players mfg 😔

[orchid void]

the other funny thing you can do is create imbued item

which i will have lucy do at some point to create a blank badge she can flash at people

[clear delta]

You could use fate for a basilisk too, but it has a limited number of people it can affect

Matter and death
Just grab an object with a bunch of ghosts anchored. Enhance and perfect the spell, convince the ghosts to help you.

Oh, yeah. You could do like in geist and hoard ghost objects

[queen heron]

Path and Order tools are also fairly broad

Signs has a couple pages of them

its mostly vibes

theres also the "a chunk of depleted uranium is kinda like a Rod when you think about it" bit

which are fun specifically because its noted the Free Council does it less than the Diamond

Outis' crown probably falls under Ars Nova

[clear delta]

Why does moros have basilisk?

[queen heron]

Moros always had Basilisk

heres their Emblem from Core

as to why

idk I'll have to think about it for a sec

alchemy? kills people despite a lack of strength?

something more lowly and connected to the earth / mundane stuff? A mixture of animals changed into something new?

its not 100% one or the other

Thyrsus has Minotaur

but theres a mage in N&A whos a Mastigos

named... Minotaur

and I thought there was an entity somewhere named after it too

[clear delta]

Yeah, pandemonium has an association with mimotaurs

Dave did one in his actual play, as a supernal god

[queen heron]

that might've been what I was thinking of

something you had to confront

[clear delta]

One book had minotaur as a low level demon to summon

Which mightxve inspired Dave

[mighty zephyr]

Dels character is also a mastigos named Minotaur lmao

[queen heron]

I prob would've done Selkie for Thyrsus mythic beast

I can how you could make Minotaur work for them, really passionate, a foot in one world and one in the other

but the Mastigos usage of it goes hard

run yourself in circles and theres still THE FUCKER you gotta deal with

only way out is through

[queen heron]

its fun to lean into the first too!

Primes vibes are good enough I let my players get away with bullshit with it

Ruling / Perfecting your Nimbus to create a physical enviromental tilt? sounds dope

[orchid void]

Hey now no, her name is Catacomb Lucy! The Minotaur is from her GoV stuff not her magistos stuff

The magistos stuff just made her way more catholic

[patent talon]

to the tune of Eleanor Rigby Catacomb Lucy, guarding the wise from those who ought not to know; a Guardian, bro

[mighty zephyr]

lmao that's good

[barren vortex]

the minotaur is a guy she knows from work

[queen heron]

ah yes, the Guardians, noticably non-catholic worldview

[clear delta]

Syncretism time!

[mighty zephyr]

The party make up so far is really funny since I think it's all just Moros and Mastigos

So far

[queen heron]

I think I've seen Moros the least

maybe Obrimos if I don't count my PCs

everybody loves Mastigos and Thyrsus

[hidden rock]

Moros has always been the one with the weirdest Arcana mashup, so it's a bit hard to build something up

It makes sense philosophically, but when you create a character with opinions and preferences, you keep stumbling on "oh yeah, right, I got 1 in Death/Matter too"

especially if you want to have a dabbler in existing esoterism, as they evoke very different groups

For all that I love Awakening's system, I have to admit that Ascension "One Sphere, you pick the rest" allowed a lot more

[mighty zephyr]

The problem with Ascension is that your choice of sphere was also a social choice most of the time

If I wanted Forces I'm either an outcast or a racist

[barren vortex]

i think miya's opinion of Moros as a general concept will be "what do you mean i can talk to dead people, i cook things in ritual imitation of alchemic purification"

"what do you mean my path metal is lead, how do i cook with a goddamn lead skillet"

[mighty zephyr]

Just cook with cinnamon

all u need

[barren vortex]

cooking with cinnabar more like, gonna give people hell of lead poisoning

oh this is where Death comes in

[queen heron]

oh did you see the Moros cook legacy?

[barren vortex]

oh i did not

where do they live

[queen heron]

uhhh they're from the dark eras 2 book I think

I always forget they're Fate

[mighty zephyr]

Lmao

[sacred viper]

Based

[clear delta]

I love them

[clear delta]

Death is good at producing matter

Join metal zombie gang

[queen heron]

Moros is a little bit of a pairing the extra imo

but they make it work well enough

just read the Heart Sutra and then think about how Death is Change or whatever

[clear delta]

Death is a good discount matter for mastigos by giving them ghostly and shadowy objects

[spice abyss]

Death and Matter can get you a lot of cool shit.

[queen heron]

I love that one of matters spells is just "Make Thing Bigger"

[clear delta]

Hmm, ways to use death and matter together? Transmuted zombie, enhance or alter anchors

[queen heron]

Matters purview list is one of the funkier

[mighty zephyr]

Turning ephemera into solid material

[queen heron]

forming solid darkness or ice into shapes, and then perfecting those shapes is one

[mighty zephyr]

Or solid material into ephemera

[queen heron]

open a hole into the underworld, pass metals through it until they turn Perfected

(no side effects)

[spice abyss]

Delete Object Easily.

[queen heron]

cast a spell to let you kill someone instantly and painlessly if your attacks break a certain threshold (Death Perfecting, skip the bleeding out)

apply bullet or edge to target

[clear delta]

Doesn't death destroy things on its own?

[queen heron]

Destroy some precious object, then render the hole it made in their life irreplacable

[queen heron]

Add "Delete that people cared about the object", then

break something and have whoever it belonged to shed no tears

[clear delta]

Ah, turn the ghost of a car into a physical car.
But also: metal ghosts!

[queen heron]

Veil someone from understanding their own mortality, rendering them reckless and foolhardy

then shield them from weapons

[clear delta]

That's under death's purview?

[queen heron]

I'd say so

Absence is

Grief

[clear delta]

Well, death is related to attachment, considering how ghosts form, and it sticks a soul to a person.

[queen heron]

its the shape something not there leaves in your life

like theres the jokes about "Absence Unmaking" summons anything

but somethings only Absent if it was expected

[spice abyss]

It can, but you can probably do it easier if you also bring in Matter.

[queen heron]

Death unveiling to make someone immediately conscious of their mortality, or of something on their mind they've lost

Death veiling to keep those thoughts away

[spice abyss]

Matter Veiling is just hilarious tbh

[queen heron]

walking around with a flaming zweihander

nobody notices

[queen heron]

funniest Death compelling I've ever seen was one that turns a Dying Party into a Dead Party

something limping towards an end, petering out

just "nah its done"

[clear delta]

Oh, I forgot. Death could cool an object down, or slow its cooling

[clear delta]

Slow energy expenditure?

[queen heron]

Have shadows patch up the broken parts of something, rendering it usable once more

[orchid void]

It’s Entropy so i think so

death is counter to both Forces and Life in some cool ways

[clear delta]

Interesting to think, of using death as a discount forces

[orchid void]

I honestly am thinking of it as Anti-Prime in some ways

[clear delta]

Well they do have as forces matter parallel

Big bang vs heat death

Also, prime and death can do some discount forces and matter stuff

[orchid void]

Yeah!

The way fate space and mind all touch

[clear delta]

Fate and space?

[queen heron]

both unveil sympathy

Interconnections is a Fate 1 spell

I wouldn't have death tied that hard to mundane physics

keeping something from cooling down and keeping a body from bleeding out, same thing

[queen heron]

my personal take on why Obrimos have Death inferior is that Prime speaks to eternal power, unfading glory

the buried crown is no less a sign of rulership

though I've seen and like the take that path inferiors are something you already think you got, so its hard to see the distinction

of course Obrimos understand the unending cycle of change that drives the universe onwards into new shapes - they've got Forces, don't they?

inferiors as false positives

[clear delta]

Yeah, moros see the power in objects. The attachments and plasmic memories, the alchemy.
Acanthus has it spelled out

Storytelling rules vs physics

[mighty zephyr]

That's why Acanthus have Forces as inferior

[orchid void]

As Above, So Below - As Below, So Above

[mighty zephyr]

A lightning storm isn't a complex series of actions and reactions, it's set dressing

[clear delta]

The lightning is comeuppance

[mighty zephyr]

Ha

Jinx

[queen heron]

I could see Acanthus prime inferior too tbh

Forces works

[mighty zephyr]

I kinda wish it was Prime inferior

[queen heron]

but as a hack I've seen it pulled off

[mighty zephyr]

It'd be more balanced definitely

[queen heron]

Mastigos / Acanthus originally had different inferiors

[clear delta]

Obrimos also mentions undead as a sort of corruption?

[queen heron]

they didn't want any path to have Fate or Prime as inferior

[clear delta]

No, as something to purify

[queen heron]

but symettry is kinda silly anyway

[clear delta]

Both are space time freedom paths with forces matter inferior, so at least it looks nice

[queen heron]

Obrimos as a path translates to "Might"

so it makes sense they would have trouble with the metaphysical principle of decay, weakness, and things-left-behind

wheres the strength in that?

wheres the rules unbroken?

[clear delta]

For them, destruction is mighty abd flashy

Glorious

Death arcana is somber

[queen heron]

Obrimos are about putting things into relationships, often looking at it through the lens of law and authority.
What is authority that fades to dust? Whats a law that crumples?

[orchid void]

A glory in the crucible of the Almighty’s beautiful machine

[queen heron]

its like

[orchid void]

Remember! The Supernal is the language the universe uses to describe itself

[queen heron]

death doesn't just end something, it renders it un-glorious

[orchid void]

Paths are dialects

[queen heron]

and thats no good

[orchid void]

Both are True

[clear delta]

Yeah. You look back on your context, in your twilight years or as a ghost, and maybe it doesn't seem so glorious, without the power thrumming, the praise of your subjects

[queen heron]

Theres a bit in American Gods about how the opposite of something holy isn't something unholy, but something meaningless

thats how the Obrimos see death, I think

its worse than something that fights against the proper order, it defangs it

makes it lesser

[queen heron]

but also the Silent Angel goes hard

[clear delta]

Hmm, what would a mage doctrine based on meaninglessness be like, for a group so obsessed with meaning

Like, I guess we have emptiness in the tamers of the cave

[mighty zephyr]

That seems like an Abyssal Mage

Pure nilhism

[clear delta]

Oh yeah

[queen heron]

thats- yeah

the Scelestus and the Abyss is meaningless

[clear delta]

But maybe. "The supernal came later, birthed by the meaningless void of space and the dust we call planets. All meaning can be destroyed or replaced."

Hmm, still can value meaning

[queen heron]

still seems scelestus-y

like that one who considers the Abyss a weapon against the Exarchs

in that grey area

behold: Deathbrimos

https://youtu.be/JTEFKFiXSx4?si=Ihx1fDuytmx2xQ3e&t=15

[clear delta]

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/necro-mage-the-awakening-i-read-a-legacy-a-day.658166/post-16148316

Lmao.

"But as time goes on, the number of those [Tamers of the Cave] who abuse their flocks, who fall prey to nihilism [suicidal void worshippers have a more nihilistic place to fall?], who die for no reason [even by their "I need to short out this control panel, I will stab my heart and cover the electronics in my dying blood" standards?], is growing steadily."

[mighty zephyr]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/257005513588342784/1211815933362839562/Screenshot_20240225_124400_Instagram.jpg?ex=65ef9288&is=65dd1d88&hm=4f2bac79ab25e27fa66399c09b1e87c3185be313c55466de3423a15fc1d26b63&

This is what Perfected Sprite looks like

[barren vortex]

this is now my goal in your game

[mighty zephyr]

Act Of Hubris

[barren vortex]

first of many

[patent talon]

I wonder if you could perfect signals? A perfected radio broadcast or WiFi signal?

[queen heron]

might end up something like High Speech

which is basically just perfected language

[clear delta]

It can only tell the truth

So sometimes radio/tv performers go mask-off about drumming up drama for money, or about how they feel about the audience

[patent talon]

I wonder how it'd affect fiction, would it just be the metaphors/intentions directly stated? Or maybe be a purer expression of the imagined story? All the cast become phenomenal actors

[clear delta]

Maybe part of the stuff that got cut is restored and completed, if it was cut due to budget or studio demands rather than improving the work

Then again, flaws of development sometimes contribute to a shows's character

[queen heron]

the fact High Speech cant have lies in it is one of my favorite little details

because it has Implications about what Language is

It establishes a setting fact

[clear delta]

A phenomenom that perfects signals

But also reveals secrets through them

Causing chaos and conflict

[grave gulch]

i'll eat chaos

i mean kill

[queen heron]

I just love that high speech is gibberish

it just transmits qualia, intent, and truth

also you cant say the Exarchs name in it

[spice abyss]

Well, that's easy to explain. The Exarchs aren't true, and are in fact part of the Lie. 😛

[queen heron]

And yet they’re absolutely True, in that they’re supernally locked in

who knows!

its spooky

You can talk about nearly anything in High Speech but you cant say “General”

[clear delta]

They're truths wrapped in lies then

Or perhaps intertwinned

After all, the exarchs overlap and support each other, and one is the Gate
Think we had a convo about that here

[queen heron]

I think they depend on the Abyss, yeah

to me the fact you cant speak the names is more a sign of their weird power than a weakness

but who knows

[orchid void]

You also can’t Use High Speech as a proper language, the best you can do is short messages. It’s broken. A fundamental part of it is missing

Such is the lot of a Fallen World

[queen heron]

unless you get the funky merit that lets you do poetry

its cause its not a real language, its the Shape of Language

it doesnt have grammar or rules

it lays plain your intent, whatever that is

though I’ve seen people with the take lying itself must therefore be postfall

And others who think theres a Symbol of Lies

whatever fits the chronicle better

[orchid void]

High Speech, like Prime, is the language the universe uses to describe itself

[sacred viper]

Both

[queen heron]

I like to tie it to humanity explicitly

and have Language be the cause of the scar in the Astral, that seperates human-soul from the world-soul

[clear delta]

If lying is a post-fall thing, lying to yourself would be the same. Interesting

[grave gulch]

that would be pretty scary

[mighty zephyr]

https://vxtwitter.com/Alfabusa/status/1763719078168994029

Should be the 9th

if all goes well

[little light]

WOOOHHH

[grave gulch]

YEEEEEEEES

[rare swallow]

Let's gooooooooooo

[versed zodiac]

Vampire whose hunting strategy is ordering delivery to their apartment and then biting the delivery person

[velvet sparrow]

"Dating apps are just doordash for vampires"

[grave gulch]

Not if ur a nosferatu it aint

[clear delta]

Nosferatu can learn an illusion power to change their appearance

[grave gulch]

Oh

[mighty zephyr]

"Send your most unarmed deliveryman"

[orchid void]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnyNrRXaezQ

[grave gulch]

Those are some clever zombies

[heady kestrel]

Random question but is there anywhere I can go for more info on akarthartoi/lower depths monsters

The way I am currently thinking about them if this is a “fill in your mechanics here” thing is that they obsess over whatever arcanum their lower depth happens to not have on earth

Like a Akarthartoi from a lifeless world will be a metallic skeleton that constantly steals the life from people in the form of mana to build itself a fleshy body
While one from a mindless one would be a weird pzombie who steals mana to build itself an ego

And they probably also have some superpowers based around their lack of that arcanum letting them have a weird anti control over it

[spice abyss]

Yes actually. It's Mummy.

[heady kestrel]

Oh?

Elaborate

Like do they have stuff on what the lower depths is like?

Do they have mechanics for lower depths monsters?

[spice abyss]

By mage standards, the Risen and everything from Duat are Lower Depths monsters.

In a realm without Fate or Time.

[heady kestrel]

Interesting

[spice abyss]

Its what leads to Mummies having the relationship with time that they do.

[heady kestrel]

Do you think my ideas still work?

[spice abyss]

They do.

[heady kestrel]

I only have the craziest mage villan ideas

[patent talon]

I'd imagine they'd basically be immune to the missing Arcana, right? At least for direct effects on them, since they'd lack it in their pattern

[heady kestrel]

ooo yeah that could be a fun way to do it

[orchid void]

Also, Vampire, technically

The Strix are theorized as creatures of a Lower Depth

So whatever’s wrong with them is at least not Abyssal

Oh Strix are missing Life, maybe Matter too

[queen heron]

I always think of it as more specific than just the Arcanum

not just Life, but Vitality

lets you distinguish between lower depths missing the same stuff easier

[orchid void]

I get the idea, and I do fundamentally agree

But I think describing them by lack of arcana and letting the mages then further subcategorize is fun

gives the mysterium sage some shit to rattle off in a lecture

[queen heron]

true

the Inferno is probably the classic lower depth

I liked Annwn, the inherently unstable mana-realm from that one legacy

where they just feed mana and things into a pit to create a 'paradise'

binding themselves to mostly-nonexistent Hounds

[heady kestrel]

I might actually do a writeup for my idea for lower depths creatures I purposed above if people are interested

Like shit with mechanics for when you want a mana devouring antediluvian beast

Even if in some cases, than Atlantean monster is…. Startling human?

The main thing I am gonna make all of them share as a mechanic, because iirc its one of the few things we know about them, is a desecrating touch

Ripping mana out of the patterns of shit they can touch, to let them rip the mana out of things patterns and damage them in the process

[patent talon]

Lower depths creature that doesn't have the aspect of distance. If you can see it, it is touching you

[versed zodiac]

Slenderman

[mighty zephyr]

That's Bird.

[versed zodiac]

Funnier answer: glomps u early 2000s internet posters

No aspect of distance. The moment you read the words, you're glomped

[heady kestrel]

One thing I wanna avoid with lower depths monsters is making them too “eldritch monster” because I feel like that niche is for abyssals

Instead I wanna lean into a more epic fantasy vibe

Just bizarre

And sometimes sad

[versed zodiac]

They both seem eldritch to me just in different ways

Lower Depths is understandable if you can intuit the different rules they work on, but that's not necessarily straightforward or intuitive

[heady kestrel]

Its def a valid read of them
I’m just personally avoiding it because I think making them sad Epic Monsters instead of going a more eldritch route is fun

Especially when you have both in one game

Having clear lines between the Mythic vs the Terrible seems fun

They might be terrifying, they might often be terrifying

But they are terrifying like a dragon swooping overhead

[mighty zephyr]

The difference is that the Abyss hates you but the Lower Depth WANTS you

[barren vortex]

that reminds me, a touchstone i use for thinking about the abyss is the dark presence from alan wake

presence beneath a lake that can be called upon to write reality, but twists everything around to eventually claim you for itself

[versed zodiac]

The Abyss can change things, rewrite reality, infect the world with its antilogic

Lower Depths just works on math that ain't be mathin'

[clear delta]

Lower Depths monster: tge mages ghosted me T_T

[clear delta]

Bird but she glomps you

[queen heron]

I go the other way with it

the Lower Depths as Malicious, the Abyss as just corrosive

the abyss doesn't need to hate you, its just reality-poison

[sacred viper]

The Abyss Id say

Loves you

It is a corrosive love a posessive love but it is a love

[heady kestrel]

I think its fun if they love everything about you, and hate you because they want it

For lower depths creatures. I tend to see them as more creatures of jealousy than creatures of pure hate, though the ones who are freed from Atlantean prisons are gonna very spiteful

[orchid void]

I think the Abyss is malicious, or at least malicious through sheer toxicity and nihilistic drive.

it wants to kill the truth and offer up endlessly new and awful and worse things

[queen heron]

I see individual scelestus as having that toxicity

I like making the Abyss pure meaningless, emptiness instead of hate

nihilism like KSBD's Jadis

[orchid void]

this is fair but also i sorta gesture at like

the Nemesis Continuum

which despite being Literal Math, still wants to hurt you very badly

[clear delta]

This is gonna turn into nobilis eventually

[orchid void]

its just trying to hurt your physics instead of your flesh

[orchid void]

that's just getting deep on metaphysics

its all like this

if you get to archmastery your gm should flip the table and make you learn nobilis

you are in the realm of the hollyhock god now we have shit to do and lord nothing remains kind of a cunt

[clear delta]

Gun frog. Cute!

[sacred viper]

Nobilis and Mage could be like sewn together scarily easy

...

I have an Act of Hubris to commit

[barren vortex]

we do have someone coming fresh off a nobilis streak in the mage game

[sacred viper]

I gave that someone the Nobilis pdf myself :p

[sacred viper]

A sort of "everything is already true and already happening/existing why bother doing anything?" That makes sense to me

[queen heron]

true and real

not the first time I've heard this either

[queen heron]

more like

to me the Abyss isn't dark eldritch truths

is nothing, its garbage, its literally meaningless

[sacred viper]

🗒️

[queen heron]

its a sucking pit - it doesn't look back, it burns away the part of you that cares about anything

it makes everything not matter

tbh I've had trouble in my games making Abyssal stuff and lower depth stuff feel different

[sacred viper]

That old joke about how LLMs are Abyssal incursions

[barren vortex]

the Abyss isnt what Isn't it's what Can't, what is impossible under the laws of the Supernal, and it hates the thing that makes it not exist

As much as a force can hate

[clear delta]

Alternatively. Abyss is a harmful thing people turn to in desperation. It offers everything that can't be, but that's corrosive to the world. It's a willful rejection of the world, and thus harmful.

The exarchs first opened the gates for their power, and lost one of their own, and gave a foothold for the corrosion

Others further brought and "shaped" the abyss

Such as the scelesti molding the inversions of their paths

[queen heron]

that was how one of my GMs liked to portray it

"Desire over Truth"

you turn to it when you crave impossibility

[orchid void]

But the Impossible can happen, in the Supernal and the Phenomenal, that's the beauty of the Mysteries :3

So it is, in turn, a rejection of those beauties and the attempts to work through the world

Skip it. Cheat. Burn it down for not giving you what you want. Sign up with reality-poison that wants it burnt as much as you do. Justify whatever you like for it. Go see the Saint of the Abyss, the old man at the edge of Astral Reality

[queen heron]

I think there are some things that are straight up mostly-impossible

or at least hard enough you could spend centuries studying it at archmastery and not be any closer

like that Archmage who wants a 'peaceful' Shadow

[orchid void]

But that doesn't mean you can't in turn pass down research

One man alone doesn't turn the wheel, to think otherwise is Hubris, nyeh?

[spice abyss]

mocking Uratha laughter

[clear delta]

Yeah. To accept the world but still strive to improve it

Even if you won't be the one to achieve it

[patent talon]

I kinda conceive the difference between the Abyss and Lower Depths is the Abyss wants to replace while the LD wants to take.
There might be an Abyssal reality and a lower depth where in both 2 + 2 = 5. The Abyss wants to make that true in the Fallen world permanently, while the lower depth wants to, even for a brief moment, equal 4.

[clear delta]

Organization xiii is pretty much a bunch of deviabts plus a special promethean with memories as tge humour or element.

[timber talon]

i always wonder if Cain ever sired any more kindred than the known progenitors

who just either got sealed away or burnt to death in the sun before ever siring their own

there's gotta be an adventure or two regarding that

being tasked to ensure the secret unknown progenitor sealed away remains that way

[hidden rock]

I distinctly remember a story with a series of Sabbat-controlled tombs with names that were not the known Progenitors, but were heavily implied to be Progenitors. Can't remember the name off the top of my head tho.

[velvet sparrow]

I know the Black Hand had something like that, in their ghost-city

I can't rightly say that you're not correct about the Sabbat also having that

[timber talon]

Why doesn’t cain sire more kindred by the way?

[velvet sparrow]

Now or in the past

In the past who knows

In modern times? Look at how fucked up the world is already and ask yourself if you really want Cain to start adding more 3rd Gen vampires into the mix

Nah Cain's fucked the place up enough already and he knows it

[timber talon]

I see

[velvet sparrow]

(And maybe a little bit of 3rd+ vampires are so insanely strong there might not be a whole lot of stories you can meaningfully tell about them)

((I am operating under the assumption that 2nd/3rd Gen vamps are pretty much the same, power-wise, as the current 3rd gens were Embraced before Cain made Generation a thing))

[timber talon]

Don’t vampires get stronger as they get older though

I thought maybe freshly embraced second genners might be killable

[velvet sparrow]

No idea

Yes, but 3+ gens don't play by the rules

[mighty zephyr]

It's both

A 2 thousand year old vamp is gonna probably be stronger than most freshly turned anythings

Regardless of generation

Also maybe he does!

Maybe Caine isn't even real

It's fun that I can say these in V5

Maybe every clan is just a time God was wounded and the blood dripped to earth and onto someone

[spice abyss]

To pull from NWOD

Who is Caine?

[timber talon]

If god wanted to punish Caine why did he give Caine superpowers, immortality, and a mark that makes everyone fear him

[spice abyss]

Because immortality sucks

[timber talon]

True

[spice abyss]

Especially when nobody wants to be around you

[mighty zephyr]

You know what I learned

The rock thing was a later development

And Caine was probably used to explain the origins of a certain tribe in the Lavant

[velvet sparrow]

To be fair; the superpowers were a side-effect of the immortality

Then again, we are talking about God

[hidden rock]

I think that was discussed in the Gehennah End of Times book

The point was to give Cain a chance to see how much of an asshole he was, and change his ways

[mighty zephyr]

The ability to propagate is probably the weirdest part

[clear delta]

Didn't the powers come from Lilith?

[spice abyss]

Lilith just taught him how to use 'em

[orchid void]

The Lancae et Sanctum does not approve of Heresies upon its streets

[orchid void]

yaaaaay I get to play Lucy

She’s technically making things worse and more confusing for her new friends

becoming Awakened and then a few days later a creepy woman shows up and explains that you need to Be Worried

[mighty zephyr]

https://twitter.com/Alfabusa/status/1766471531599671520

Bruva Alfabusa (@Alfabusa) on X

HEJ.
First Post today:

The Kevin plush campaign is FINALLY LIVE, coming out inbefore the fourth chapter of Hunter: The Parenting later today!

It’ll be available for 21 days and comes-prepackaged with all the hate and loathing you could EVER drink!

https://t.co/Qn77amRBpB

Twitter · Mar 9, 2024, 2:30 PM

New HTP today and also we're doing a plush campaign

https://tenor.com/view/vegeta-orange-justice-fortnite-dragon-ball-super-vegeta-dance-gif-26497313

[versed zodiac]

ofc Mage is nearly twice as discussed as the next most

[sacred viper]

90% of Mage is probaly "How does this work" tbf

[heady kestrel]

Promethan being below mummy suprises me honestly

So does deviant being above hunter

[mighty zephyr]

https://twitter.com/Alfabusa/status/1766593130684407991

Bruva Alfabusa (@Alfabusa) on X

HEJ GUESS WHAT
sECOND POST OF THE DAY:

https://t.co/wY3vWZ73sj

WE'RE GOING LIVE WITH THE VIDEO IN ABOUT 3 HOURS.

COME WATCH WHEN YOU CAN TO SEE THE NEXT THRILLING BEPISODE OF HUNTER THE PARENTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Twitter · Mar 9, 2024, 10:33 PM

TONIGHT

[queen heron]

oh wow

lucky time to check

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBjIHGF-c2Y

its HERE

animations noticably better!

[versed zodiac]

oh shit for real

I was literally playing VtM tonight because of HtP, that's what inspired me to start a campaign

[velvet sparrow]

I also am playing VtM tonight as the episode dropped

[queen heron]

mage references

😌

[mighty zephyr]

hope you all enjoyed c:

[rare swallow]

So holy shit that was amazing

Like wow

Seriously amazing job from the team

[timber talon]

Yeah

So ||who do you think is the murderer||

[velvet sparrow]

Don't think I can watch it tonight, I'm a bit tired from my game

Will watch tomorrow!

[sour zephyr]

||probably spit, he was suffering headaches and hearing voices||

[velvet sparrow]

I am so tempted to click on those little black boxes but I must restrain myself

[mighty zephyr]

for this one do not spoiler yourself at all

is my recommendation

Also #1216227286177808584

[mighty zephyr]

The Pure

[grave gulch]

i love this fricking idiot

[clear delta]

Okay, star rail giving me fuel. The memory zone seems like an astral realms equivalent.

Dream Bubble: Memory Bubbles affected by enigmatic forces.
Memory Zone: A realm created by memoria, inaccessible to direct observation. Only Pathstriders who follow the Path of Remembrance or individuals well-versed in unconventional methods can navigate its boundaries. In the past, the Enigmata caused numerous breaches on the border between realspace and the Memory Zone.
Memoria: Memoria serves as a vessel for human memory and consciousness. Individuals who are not Memokeepers may experience varying degrees of negative impact upon direct contact with unprocessed memoria. The Memory Zone and Memory Bubbles both consist of aggregates of memoria, differing only in size.

Mythus the enigmata, if transplanted without many changes, seems like a god of banishers.

"To stop questioning is to ask pouring rain to relinquish its faith in the glittering stars. Open yourself to the roaring river of metaphors, and you will find truth awaits, hiding at the end of the night sky, in the swirling rosy storm of a bygone age."
— Sharon Leighton, Galactic Laureate Poet (Self-Proclaimed)

It is a fallacy that all things can be experienced and recognized. The living seek to produce prophecies of the unknown based on their limited grasp of order, but little do they know that the universe has no end and that the truth is but a fevered dream.

History, knowledge, and language are soaked, drenched, and distorted in the deluge

[heady kestrel]

What are the major changes between 1e and 2e mage?

[spice abyss]

For chronicles?

[clear delta]

Reach

[spice abyss]

If it is for Chronicles, magic became a lot safer in a lot of ways.

Part of it is reach, part of it is loosing that some things would just always cause paradox no matter how careful you are.

The Vulgar/Subtle divide.

[clear delta]

Damage spells

[spice abyss]

Mage armor getting baked into your understanding of magic and not being its own spells that you'd have to work harder to maintain.

[clear delta]

Attainments, yeah. Forgot em

Wisdom no longer has derangements

[midnight grotto]

Honestly Arcana Attainments might be the biggest QOL change for 2E, I had always been annoyed at how Mage Sight and Mage Armor were must-haves but weren't half as interesting as the other spells you could get for the same investment

[spice abyss]

Oh yeah, I like it for Mage Sight.

[hybrid dock]

Hi yeha that’s me

Also hiiiiii

Joinin since I’m in a mage game

The Nobilis streak hasn’t ended

[clear delta]

Yo

New pfp?

[hybrid dock]

ye

[clear delta]

What sorta mage you playing?

[hybrid dock]

thrysus

[clear delta]

Ah, spirit shenanigans?

What order?

[hybrid dock]

Adamantine probably

She in universe hasn’t decided yet

[clear delta]

What was her awakening like?

[hybrid dock]

Uhhhh

She has a cable in her head that leads to her true body in the supernal world and then she followed it to Yggdrasil and embraced herself in its roots?

Sorta

[clear delta]

Ah, cool

[hybrid dock]

I’ve been taking inspiration from uh…Nobilis in general

[clear delta]

Oh, let me digress to leave this written here

Mythus the Enigmata. This strange entity has been interfering with the astral realms. Provoking breaches, bringing goetia into realspace. Due to its confusing nature, its nature as an astral or supernal creature has not been verified.
Supposedly claiming mankind cannot fully grasp truth, and that knowledge shall bring a catastrophe and shackle the future, this entity and their followers have distorted and hidden many truths, cloaking the universe in enigmas.
Many banishers join their cults. Though a secret section of the guardians of the veil do so too, believing mythus means to keep knowledge from the unworthy, and the disaster is another incident like the Fall, or that the Fall was indeed the disaster.

[barren vortex]

my newly awakened mage has made the best breakfast of their life, gone to work, made a cup of coffee for a ghost, then laid the cup of coffee to rest so it could be made a ghost to give to the dead guy, probably. this has been so good

[clear delta]

Love ghost objects

[hybrid dock]

My friends are bullying me

[clear delta]

Does the god machine even have a single counsciousness?

[hybrid dock]

No

Probably not

[clear delta]

I imagine it's run by the most important control infrastructure, including

The highest angels

[hybrid dock]

But I am a friend to all ambiguously large amorphous vast beings

[clear delta]

You'd need to kiss all the big infrastructure and angels

[hybrid dock]

I can do this

[spice abyss]

Got it, Polyamorous Divinity

[clear delta]

The primal wild is a superorganism, too

[hybrid dock]

Yes

I met a god named New York

[orchid void]

And not long after, Lucy

[barren vortex]

i've met a man who introduced himself as Dio and was rude to a ghost briefly

this man is 100% a servant of the demiurge

[clear delta]

Maybe he's a music fan on a bad day

[orchid void]

Oh this fool a seer fr fr

[hybrid dock]

Lucy <3333

[orchid void]

Lucy: Be Worried
Eid: CAN DO MAAM

[hybrid dock]

Yes lmao

Eid saw a pretty lady tell her to be afraid and by god she’s going to obey

“The world is full of evil wizards”
“damn ok”

[patent talon]

"Bro you are being such a servant of the demiurge right now"

[heady kestrel]

Mages would say that shit to you

[queen heron]

Ars stepped away from the shared setting ||and for the best tbh|| but on the OwoD end
is the Order of Hermes / The Tremere still the Order from Ars?

do they have the same houses, or broad history? Whats the deal with Ascensions wizardy wizards.

[unkempt locust]

At this point they’re very different entities

[timber talon]

I like how in the Parliament of Knives if you are playing as Malkavian you have your very own Johnny silver hand

Everyone looks at you strange when you start talking to your imaginary friend

But said imaginary friend knows things a mere figment of imagination has no business knowing

[velvet sparrow]

Malkavians be like that

[timber talon]

Party members discussing things like “oh look, a hidden side entrance! We can use it to ambush the anarchs!”

Figment of imagination: “bad idea. There’s a reason why I didn’t point it out to you.”

Me having an argument with my figment of imagination about gaudiness of mansions while waiting in a Ventrue’s suburban home sanctuary

Ventrue: babbling some nonsense about oil futures deal with an ashirra and celebrating over a fine vintage of foreign royalty

Me: trying really hard to ignore the fact that my figment of imagination is going blah blah blah over her words

[patent talon]

That rules

[timber talon]

Nosferatu: gushing about his fancy sports car and referring to it as a “she.”

Another Malkavian: “the fuck…? Is he talking about his car in the feminine?”

Me, a Malkav: “I am afraid he is.”

Malkavian: “he must be sick in the head.”

Me: “he talks to it too. Very disturbing.”

My figment of imagination: “It’s true. People who talk to their cars are all weirdoes.”

[patent talon]

Lmaoooo

[versed zodiac]

of course, the figment buddy might Know Things, but sometimes it might just be fucking with you

[rare swallow]

Yes

And it should be hard to tell if it's fucking with you or not

[clear delta]

Make disco elysium skills

[patent talon]

The Tie

[queen heron]

my ideal WoD / CofD game will always be DE-occultist mage game

make different paths or arcana the skills

[patent talon]

Oh damn, mage sight being your arcana speaking to you

[queen heron]

exactly!

[patent talon]

That'd be super cool, especially how each path would flavour it

[versed zodiac]

[Volition: Hard] Listen. I know right now you want to believe that werewolves are not real. I would like that too. But the facts are before us, and there's no use denying them. That is a werewolf. It is about to kill us if we do not do something.

[clear delta]

Spirit and life, talking about the werewolf with... interest

Spirit wants to eat them

Life, well...

[versed zodiac]

Knowing Harrier...?

I wouldn't put it past him

[patent talon]

Spirit [Easy: Success]: No creature of the flesh is this, in your gut you can feel this is a creature of Shadow.
Life [Easy: Success]: You can feel the body heat, smell the pheromones from here. This is an animal.
Spirit [Very Hard: Failure]: Huh?
Life [Very Hard: Failure]: What?

Prime: Something is very, very wrong.

Spirit: Whatever it is, it definitely outranks you

[versed zodiac]

So which Path is the one that calls you BRATAN!

[queen heron]

Mastigos

DE has like 24 skills?

I'd prob cut down on the total number

but make the different groupings the paths

instead of Psyche, Motorics, etc you have Aether, Pandemonium, Stygia...

fold in some Exarchal skills too

[patent talon]

Esprit De Corps would work both for Pentacle solidarity and Seers obeying the system, imo

Silver Ladder and Seers like EDC

And Authority

[queen heron]

Authority would go under Aether's grouping of skills imo

[patent talon]

For sure

[clear delta]

I imagine the exarchal skills would be toned down. Raptor otherwise would be measurehead glued to you

[queen heron]

if you want to be bleak exarchal skills just slip in the other stuff at high enough levels

[clear delta]

Un-kickable

[queen heron]

high Authority or Force starts having whispers of "hey, what don't you just make them listen to you - violence is the perfect solution"

[patent talon]

Mhm, you gotta Be Respected

[clear delta]

Guess high life is "you are the apex, they're inferior"?

[queen heron]

maybe just reductive about life

[patent talon]

I'd see that as Spirit, especially as in the base rules you get a Rank in the Spirit hierarchy

[queen heron]

Thyrsus' thing about cutting through the noise and getting to the real truth

[patent talon]

Maybe Life is more getting lost in the physical, everything is hormones, biological imperatives, adrenaline rushes

[versed zodiac]

Electrochemistry

[orchid void]

hi i have a suggestion bc its a thing i've been playing with

a person's Skills are their Goetia

Their bad impulses, their good impulses, the various Demons that screech and tug at the psyche and try to enforce themselves as more important

[queen heron]

it definitely works

and how you have “conversations” with them

[orchid void]

im thinking about Goetia a lot since they’re supposed to be, Like Spirits

So Skills seemed the best translation for my magistos to deal with

[barren vortex]

hello miya has a skill cabinet

kind of

been trying to do that in my narration text

have fun with the format

[clear delta]

Permeable morphean. They can experience development of their personalities, but aren't immortal.
Maybe they break down and merge with the astral. Maybe they mutate into new astral beings, reminiscent to their old selves.

[timber talon]

I think my malkav primogen is fucking with me

[clear delta]

Diablerize them

[timber talon]

She’s looking at my figments of imagination

As if she can also see them

But I’m guessing that she’s just clever and emotionally intelligent enough to observe that I see them

And is also looking at what I am looking at just to fuck with me

When she doesn’t actually see anything

Why? Because she’s an asshole

She and that damned banu haqim boyfriend of her

Well no her boyfriend is actually a sweetie

[queen heron]

I think of personal goetia as less individual than spirits

I dont ascribe them much agency

[timber talon]

Can lasombra literally trap peoples souls in the Abyss

[queen heron]

what are souls in the WoD?

is there any difference between them, spirits, and ghosts?

[clear delta]

Well, ghosts still have virtue and vice, they have integrity but frozen

[mighty zephyr]

Talking two different settings at the same time

[clear delta]

Ah shit, thought it was about goetia, spirits and ghosts

Eepy brain

[queen heron]

yeah I only know how CofD treats the self and identity

I imagine WoDs a little more handwavey with it

soul as just you, instead of the weird psuedo-organ cofd has

[queen heron]

like I dont see any reason they couldn't tbh

unless theres something about souls I don't know in WoD

[velvet sparrow]

Yes but I think it's like, Obtenebration 8 or 9

Mayybe 7?

[timber talon]

Princes aren’t appointed right

They are usually the most powerful and influential vampire of the region!

[orchid void]

Princes are whomever can enforce the ownership of the title

Vampires still be doing feudalism

[timber talon]

I see

Are vampires afraid of accessing the internet

Or directly using the internet

Or are the old coots just not tech savvy

One character mentioned how instead of meeting face to face they could just use mortal agents to chat over internet

[mighty zephyr]

Are we talking owod or nwod

[orchid void]

Yeah you kinda gotta specify

[timber talon]

Uhh

I believe this is owod

But during second inquisition

[mighty zephyr]

Then yes the Camrilla has basically outlawed the internet

because the Nosferatu fucked everyone on the planet with it

[spice abyss]

Nooo, the poor Nossy support network

[timber talon]

But apparently having mortal agents do basic info sharing over internet during daytime is allowed

[mighty zephyr]

It's really funny being the apparent one person on the planet who has read W5

[queen heron]

its got dogs in it I think

and they're mad(?)

[mighty zephyr]

ya

[queen heron]

Dominion - Command, hierarchies, whos 'in-charge'.
Correspondance - Logic, speech, linking thoughts coherently - the Truth and Language.
Dynamics - Understanding systems in motion, getting a feel for energy and how it moves.

Breach - Weakpoints, fractures, breaking things and people both, letting loose. All you've got is a hammer...

alternatively

Codex - Laws, rules, regulation. The ins-and-outs of WIZARD SOCIETY.

Pandemonium:
Whispers - Understanding the motivation of others, or their emotions. Suggestion.
Crucible - Endurance of pain, control over thoughts. Willpower, keeping your demons chained.
Inland Empire  - Its inland empire. Tie it to the Astral. 
Vantage - The senses, understanding physical space, and what ties people together.

Stygia:
Dregs - Understanding whats gone-and-left-over. History, scars, loss.
Quietude - Understanding calm and composure. Stillness, the cold.
Trappings - Tools and equipment, the physical world. Stuff made of Stuff.
Composition - Material science, knowledge of interactions. Architecture. Measurement. Form. 

Wilds:
Worldsong - Shivers. Picking up vibes.
Kinship - Families and groups, understanding living things - Animals, plants, aggregate life, someones 'pack'.
Corpus - Toughness, strength, raw physical health. The body.
Pulse - more visceral perception - base? drugs + biology? Addiction, desire?

Arcadia: 
Metronome - Reaction speed, moving quickly, sense of timing.
Anticipation - Flashes of things from other times, predicition and portents. 
Dramaturgy - Story tropes, intuition, being extra and having it work out anyway.
Sway - Subtlety, a lighter touch and quieter step. Things unseen and unimportant - details, nudges.```

that'd be my rough outline, would want to flavor the arcana more than just Prime or Spirit

I did (roughly) 2 skills per

fun thought experiment

some of these I'd be more confident on as skills than others

[orchid void]

I love writing Mage

the things Lucy knows instead of math

Or current events

[hybrid dock]

it is what it is

[grave gulch]

Btw

Even tho werewolves dont interact with their young till a certain age

They still keep an eye out for them right?

At least in Chronicles it looked that way

[patent talon]

I like it! I feel like Breach is the better pick over Codex, since I think Dominion and Dynamics could cover the social side of Wizard Politics. Though maybe "Smite" rather than "Breach"? Though that might be my religious interpretation of Aether getting in the way

[spice abyss]

It's OK, math is part of the Lie.

[queen heron]

Good suggestion - Definitely struggled with the 4th aether skill, I only used breach for the legal pun tbh

”breaching a contract” or something

[queen heron]

I guess to a Mastigos it wouldn’t Matter, right?

[clear delta]

Angry Obrimos noises approaching

[barren vortex]

I love how this implies the timeline still isnt our own since the USSR fell in 1991

[orchid void]

that would be me personally being bad at modern history

but also sincerely still funny

Khrushchev made it an extra year with the backing of Hegemonic Ministry!!

[orchid void]

ACADEMICS 0
SCIENCE 0
OCCULT 3
MY LABYRINTH PROSPERS

[barren vortex]

Soviets dissolved January 1st rather than December 26th

[orchid void]

exactly

[spice abyss]

Wow, a whole extra 6 days! Well done

[barren vortex]

i love the seers, because their bosses are the metaphysical embodiments of oppression by force they can point to anything and say "i did that. i helped" regardless of actual involvement

now, they might have set up oppressive systems of power to enact that on a wider scale than personal involvement

activists for a worse world

[queen heron]

they do reap some benefits

sellouts and hypocrites

[timber talon]

Are there rogue technocrats

Tech based mages opposed to the new world order

Are technocrats basically just mad scientists

Doing super science magic in hidden labs before introducing them to the public as new products

[clear delta]

Two traditions used to be technocrats

[timber talon]

What were the two traditions

[queen heron]

Society of Ether and

Virtual Adepts?

is that their name?

Science! Enthusiasts and Reality Hackers

[timber talon]

Was there a purge or smth

[queen heron]

Sons of Ether got kicked out afaik because they were too focused on scientific models considered "Outdated" by the Technocracy

they are 100% mad scientists

Phlogiston, Vitalism, death rays, clockwork robotics

[timber talon]

What’s the goal of the technocracy in general anyways?

[queen heron]

the Adepts are computer-coded (ha)

they think everything runs on the same principles as computer programs, that reality itself can be edited - no more than Data

they split from the Technocracy in the last 100 years

[timber talon]

Are they paternalists who think they are protecting the mundane world

Or do they just want power

[queen heron]

I mean it is the second for sure

but the first is their 'justification'

[timber talon]

I see

And the reason why they are so powerful is because it’s easier for the consensus to buy their magic?

So they don’t have to worry about paradox as much compared to tradition mages?

Like they can’t shoot fireballs but they can build a device that can actually be used by mundane human?

[patent stirrup]

yeah consensus reality mostaly agrees with there magic,

[queen heron]

as far as I'm aware this is a bit of a chicken and egg

they engineered reality to agree with their way of doing things

[timber talon]

I see

[queen heron]

Consensus works for them because they set it up that way, and choke out any alternatives

they are The Man

[patent stirrup]

like there are a few pockets whare like they don't dominate but those are small or like in areas whare there are not a lot of humans

[queen heron]

idk the ins and outs of consensus - I've got like 5 explanations from 5 old mage fans

and never read the book fully myself

[queen heron]

thematically I like to have it just be control and power for its own sake

its a bureaucratic behemoth that would rather strangle the world than lose control of it, enriching its own members at the cost of everyone else

[patent stirrup]

IWRC most of the rank and file belive they are doing it for the grater good, but yeah they definatlay overall seem tobe doing it just to have power wich dose fit wiht them aiding the axis powers for the first half of wwii

[orchid void]

mage is fundamentally a game about arguing about mage

so any of those can and may be true

let’s Go Paradigms

[orchid void]

The USSR was mystically backed/co-opted by the Hegemonic Ministry!

Pentacle mages don’t go to Moscow

So we must imagine the Awakening version of the Russian Revolution that looks like another Great Rejection with the Nameless Orders jumping with the Petrograd Soviets and managing until they Don’t

[barren vortex]

they might have friends in high places, but they can also point to like, a high hospital bill and take credit for it knowing full well they were a country mile away

[orchid void]

this is true

the guy running a shitty prison is closest to summoning an ochemeta

you were right on that one

[barren vortex]

yes, yes that chain of suffering tiers where each on the ladder looks down at the one below

and dont thank me, thank the mage knowers that got me into mage for that

[orchid void]

ur friends are correct

[queen heron]

Seers try in vain to convince themselves they aren't treated the same way by their gods

the most unnerving Seers are the true believers who really do see The Glory in every ruined neighborhood and police crackdown

the ones who aren't just Seers because "Its just the winning side" or "they pay well, artifacts and comfort" or "well, someone has to 'shepard' humanity"

but because this is how everything should be: God in his heaven and alls right with the world.

[barren vortex]

Seers have a lot of influence, but they don't have total dominion, and they aren't directly responsible for all the world's evils (only a domino effect most of the time outside of matters focused on), and they want to be, and they know that they aren't, and this frustrates them to no end

[queen heron]

its a thrust of CofD that supernaturals tend to be as swept up in history as much as mortals

in the pirate dark era, Seers didn't start the plantations
but they definitely encouraged them, and bound ghosts to their labor as well

[barren vortex]

And I love that immensely

[queen heron]

works well for the weird fiction setting

instead of having to figure out "who caused this" you can make stuff happen and focus on how factions react

the god-machine blood-plague sweeping through vampires in revoltionary france? doesn't need to be explained

theres (probably) not a mastermind causing it, it just kinda showed up

[barren vortex]

It also makes real history less cheapened by assigning it to a faction of supernaturals, like, the colonization of the americas wasn't caused by a society of vampires but a real historical event with forces of history behind it, and you can throw some supernatural things floating around there in the back too

[queen heron]

huge point yeah

[barren vortex]

Hiroshima wasn't bombed because of a wizard, World War 1 wasn't started by vampires, people did that to themselves

[orchid void]

makes it feel like conspiracy webs and sub-history rather than “True History”

Wizards are busy with wizard shit and Grudges and Heresies

[mighty zephyr]

The fucked up part of old mage is that everyone is wrong

Literally at no point is anyone right about anything despite everything saying you can br tight if you try

[patent talon]

Glad to help! I adore World Song as the Shivers equivalent, super evocative

[patent talon]

Supernaturals being surprised by shit is my favourite. I'm sure there were Space mages dismissive of the internet as a fad, now think of how many sympathetic new connections a discord server opens up?

[clear delta]

The mages who discovered celestial bodies weren't crystals through sleeper science, because spirits never told them

[grave gulch]

So i had this idea for a werewolf npc

Simple idea, he's just a dad trying his best

His ex wife passed away due to natural causes, she had a heart disease

And now he has to take care of his daughter

I plan on doing something with him in the future, but fot now that's it

Would his tribe have a problem with him doing that?

I remember that werewolves usually avoid interacting with their kids since they can bring danger to them and stuff

But is it forbidden?

[clear delta]

Old or new darkness

[grave gulch]

Old

[patent stirrup]

not exacatl forbidden but like if a wearwolfs rage is higer then a moralts willpower the mortal gets supper freeked out by them

And this inclueds kinfolks wich the kid woud likely be

But like it woud be workable if the wearwolf had a low rage and the kid had a decent willpower

[grave gulch]

I see that happens even at their human form? Freaking people out?

[patent stirrup]

Yep, it's called "the curse" by them becosue wel it amkes it hard for them to interact with humanity

And it happens in anyform

[timber talon]

And werewolves have harder to control temper on top?

[patent stirrup]

Yep, and the curse afects every one who sees them if there rage goes over there willpower, but like that's just kinda common sence at that point

Like you piss off a werewolf and they can frenzy like a staving vampire infront of a blood bank

[timber talon]

Do vampires actually like drinking from blood bags

Or do they only do it in a pinch

[patent stirrup]

It depends on the vamp

Some vamps only drink animal blood if they can help it and get weird about human blood

[timber talon]

Some vamps only drink blood from consensual uh, partners…? Victims?

[velvet sparrow]

In pretty much all circumstances, drinking from a living human tastes/feels significantly better than anything else

[timber talon]

Ethically sourced meals as a Malkavian insists

[velvet sparrow]

Donors?

[timber talon]

Ethically sourced donors

[clear delta]

Food that accepts they're food

[timber talon]

People with vampire kink

There are some truly mad anarch conspiracies

Like the controlled masquerade breach plan

[patent stirrup]

Or are willign to give blood as a form of worship

[velvet sparrow]

The what?

[patent stirrup]

Like i don't know if "Osiris" as a feeding plan is still a thign in 5e but it used to be one

[timber talon]

There is an anarch conspiracy to reveal the existence of vampires in a controlled way

That leads to societal acceptance of vampires

[clear delta]

Or, human worshipped by vampire servants, who are rewarded with the holy blood

[hidden rock]

Looks at Gehenna. Yeah, that went well in that timeline.

[timber talon]

The plan is to win the war in culture/social consensus

By flooding it with pro vampire propaganda like friendly neighborhood vampire stories

Preparing the public consensus to be at least willing to consider the possibility of friendly vampires

And eventually causing very minor masquerade breaches to test the waters

And gaining human allies to support them