World of Darkness

[rare swallow]

That's a good parallel actually

[hidden rock]

CtL is also very easy to slot in other games, they're notoriously hard to pin down and understand, and speak of a world that is way outside even a Mage's understanding.

Hell, Mages might be even more at risk by thinking they know what they're getting into.

(Aaah mage hubris. Chefkiss)

[midnight grotto]

"Changelings show up and give people trouble" is a great story beat

I was in a Vampire game where my character got impersonated by one

I also distinctly remember one of the NPCs referring to them as "babadooks"

[queen heron]

Lost!Changelings are good plot hooks because they are 100% trauma-driven

even if you’re well intentioned, poking about their buisness might not be appreciated

[late goblet]

Changelings are closer to demons conceptually

Straight up bordering a reskin

Theres a subline in ctd that plays a lot like wraiths but nobody cares about it

Denizens of the Dreaming, the Adhebe

I like it a lot tho

[queen heron]

I love the descriptions of the Dreaming I’ve seen, and some of dreamings themes

not sure I was ever a fan of banality though

Ime scientists and academic types have been the most full of wonder

[late goblet]

Its a bit of a meh concept narratively imo

Ike i straight disagree with wws message here

[queen heron]

seems like the writers had some conflicting ideas about it

[late goblet]

The way its portrayed is very close to bordering rightoid talking points, which is more of a failure on wws part than the banality itself, imo

[mighty zephyr]

Also the Huntsmen

[queen heron]

arguably the Wyrd itself, too

its definitely got opinions

[late goblet]

I also think tha the way changelings are portrayed outside of ctd is kinda banal in itself

if the focus was on the unseelie fae in terms of what you encounter while playing other gamelines, it would have been much better

unseelie can be very scary

and very in theme for the setting

but instead changelings always get the "oh yknow the dreamy kid haha arent they INSANE lmao"

and the insanity in question is like

being honest

liking art

[mighty zephyr]

I'm surprised there's an art/science debate in Changeling since isn't it like

The Moon Landing actually brought hope and wonder back to the world

(or am I thinking of Princess, was this Princess?)

[velvet sparrow]

Nah that's Changeling

[mighty zephyr]

So did they really write that science brought huge hope to the world but also most science is lame and evil and banal

[late goblet]

i mean from lore and metaphysics perspective it makes

but it also makes the message inconsistent and stupid

[mighty zephyr]

Actually thinking about it I think the idea of what happened in CofD if Princess is canon VERY funny

like if you combine all the canon moon landing events

1. Astronauts found a tomb that had their own bodies in it.

[late goblet]

but i was talking about ctd, not ctl
idk how it operated it cofd, sorry

very surface level knowledge xd

[mighty zephyr]

2. The Idigam were unleashed on the earth

3. Suddenly magical girrls were everywhere.

[late goblet]

i dont think cofd is meant to be combined? more or less

[mighty zephyr]

I'm saying it's funny if you do.

[late goblet]

it is!

[mighty zephyr]

Also I think the idea of having Magical Girls fight an Idigam would be fucking hilarious

[clear delta]

Idigam that solidifies around the idea of magical girls

[late goblet]

I only now understood the impaler ddt joke in hunter the parenting......

[clear delta]

Oh never saw that one

[queen heron]

think its cofd core

unless thats something else and they also found the Angel of Death

[queen heron]

secret reveal that Luna trapped the Magical Girls away on purpose, warding them from earth

would be kinda fun

[clear delta]

Actually, could be cool. Idigam trying to be a hero and understand magical girls. While also doing experiments and twisting spirit and flesh

[hidden rock]

so they start offering girls contract to become magical?

[queen heron]

from its receptacle on the moon has the potential to be 
much more devastating than any atomic weapon. What 
was retrieved was the skeletal form of one of the Ancient 
Ones. Specifically, the very being that pronounced the 
curse of mortality upon humanity. As the portal through 
which death itself entered our universe, it was changed into 
a thing neither dead nor alive. Those who learn to control 
it, as its current jailers seek to do, will exert ultimate power 
over the tides of life and death.```

[grave gulch]

i wanna be magic too

[queen heron]

moons super haunted

[mighty zephyr]

Actually counter

[hidden rock]

／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼

[grave gulch]

[mighty zephyr]

Luna is the reason the magical girls busted out of their prisons

so now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUqpAeVyqEI

IN THE NAME OF THE MOON, WE WILL PUNISH YOU

[hidden rock]

(Which fits Forsaken to a tee, but moving on)

[queen heron]

also valid

I just like the explanation for "why is so much shit trapped on the moon" as "well, what else does the moon do?"

[mighty zephyr]

Luna getting fucking pissed at all the shit on her surface

she didn't even sign up for like half of them

[queen heron]

Gaias landfill

[mighty zephyr]

She's ALSO imprisoning Gaia

Luna's the Maeiv Shadowsong of CofD

[queen heron]

lmao

[clear delta]

Funny thing is, in cofd gaia is an unconfirmed theory. Being trapped on the moon is a possible answer to tge earth's silence

[mighty zephyr]

Well no, Gaia's not trapped on the moon, she's trapped IN the Earth, at the very core of the Shadow's being.

[queen heron]

throwing out "The Earth doesn't have a single spirit for the same reason Humans don't" into the werewolf / mage group chat like a flashbang

[mighty zephyr]

I just got reminded of this image I made years ago

[queen heron]

I could also see the entire Dreaming Earth in the astral as gaia

[mighty zephyr]

also this

[queen heron]

or gaia something that isn't exactly a singular being

[clear delta]

"Can't believe you propositioned all aeons at once!"

[mighty zephyr]

you joke

but there's a reason I made this fucking image

[queen heron]

my addition

[clear delta]

Anyway, back to my train legacy.
Guess the first levels would be powers to get a lay of the land and paths, and then slightly change areas to produce or improvd paths. Then creating more complex things like machinery, tunnels and portals.

[queen heron]

sounds good

my rule of thumb for legacies is based on:

1. Info gathering or always on knowing trick
2. Day to day workshorse spell, a common shielding or ruling effect, or minor ways to 'break rules' (Spend mana to Treat X as within sensory range, constant impression booster, fuckin' idk - you may grapple ongoing spell effects)
3. The big stuff - this is the stuff that other legacies might talk about this legacy doing. Builds off the first too, flashy and engaging to use.

if 4 becomes relevant, usually make the previous levels more effective, or easier to use

[clear delta]

I see, thanks

1- Discern the layout and composition of an area. Know where it's safe to tread and such. With space 2, may see through sympathetic range, maybe?

2- shaping or a better lodestone? Optional, cast ban on area

[queen heron]

hmm

do they have a take on paths or roads?

like, whats their thrust or arguement

paths and roads as tools, or technology?

[clear delta]

Was kinda the idea. Makers and maintaners of paths, helping on trips and journeys.

[queen heron]

trains building on that, just another way to travel?

ok, yeah thats coming through

[clear delta]

On going on journeys themselves, and creating paths

[queen heron]

so paths are about taming the enviroment, for them?

[clear delta]

Perhaps? Is this how it comes across?
Guess I neglected the relationships part of journeys? That's a possible angle

Hmm. I was just too focused on vehicles and creating roads when I first thought of this

[queen heron]

I mean it can be both

sometimes its easier to get the attainments as an outgrowth of their beliefs

like heres a Tremere house a friend wrote up

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e6dUuRuetyZHMFs-E-xqArDw6PR2UHEOvokxhHrR6Yc/edit

the background sets the aesthetics - souls as computers

their theory, influenced by the Tremere

which leads into how their attainments build: they use souls, and they use people

[clear delta]

Okay, my idea was dividing paths into their substance. The roads, the vehicle, the food, the stops.
And the connections and relationships

Like, in the train idea

[queen heron]

so connections naturally draw paths, and physical tools draw things closer together

[clear delta]

Oh, good! Thanks

So, anyway, making well built stops, lile the stations. And the train itself is a moving place, of comfort and food

But let's table the train thin thing

Hmm. Building paths and nodes for travel

Maintaning and stocking them

And something with sympathies

[grave gulch]

hehe

[queen heron]

maybe 1 lets you see exits, entraces, and paths arouynd you, or understand the best way to get somewhere at glance?

space optional to trace this with sympathy as well, maybe taking a little longer, so you can see routes between cities, dimensions, etc?

I like the node idea

having something built or invested, and then that feeds back into the physical world

[clear delta]

Isn't that the attainment I posted?

Anyway, some mind stuff for language and getting some social common sense?

[queen heron]

I was imagining more metaphysical than materials, but yeah you're right

[grave gulch]

what do Ventrue vampires do besides being the fancy schamncy ones? what's their gimmick?

[velvet sparrow]

Well

They're the kings?

So, I dunno, what do kings do? Sit around all day pretending to be important because some ancestor of theirs killed a bunch of people?

[grave gulch]

yeh but what kind are they good at? does their blood gives them some kind of power that helps them be so influential?

[velvet sparrow]

They are the only clan to have Dominate and Presence both as in-clan (which is basically a fancy way of saying that they have a natural talent for both the social manipulation Disciplines)

[grave gulch]

hmm...i probably wont have a hard time adapting them for the hunter book then! there are a bunch of em in London so i wanted to use em specifically

also like the creepy ones who manipulate flesh and stuff

[velvet sparrow]

Also Ventrue have Fortitude, so they're tough to kill

[grave gulch]

noted

[dense vault]

Ventrue are extremely charismatic, supernaturally alluring, and superhumanly tough. They're the Evil ruler in a dark castle type vamp, except they're ceos in pinthouses now.

[grave gulch]

right right

[clear delta]

In requiem. Ventrue are, in 1e, more prone to madness. In 2e, they're more prone to becoming distant from humans, having a harder time holding onto their touchstones. Elder ventrue also have difficulty getting willpower through their mask (2e added mask and dirge to represent a vampire's two identities in mortal and vampire society)

In masquerade, the ventrue curse is a restriction on mortals they feed from

[crystal fern]

the Ventrue bane in V5 is one of the more interesting ones I think, it does a surprising amount of quite subtle work in terms of reinforcing the flavour of the clan

[grave gulch]

what would it be? is it the restricion on what kind of people they can feed from

?

[crystal fern]

yes, they have a feeding restriction, which they can spend willpower to bypass if necessary, and an ability to sense if someone matches their criteria

pushes them into becoming intensely secretive about their feeding preferences, and wanting to build power structures around securing their food, and also narratively positions them as being either refined or intensely finicky

also encourages proactivity which is the core of any good TTRPG design

[grave gulch]

neat i imagine they usually embrace subordinates and whatnot?

[crystal fern]

like any kindred seeking power

the clan structure in Ventrue is probably the most formalised (save perhaps pre-v5 Tremere) or at least the best documented. They're obsessed with vampiric ancestry because it can be leveraged for social power

[grave gulch]

makes sense

[mighty zephyr]

Y'know

I could just steal the idea

of Domain Expansion

for Cowboy Werewolf game

What if you're fighting a Jupiter-possessed outlaw demigod and he just goes "Domain Expansion"
"Realm of the Red King."

[barren vortex]

a court of the crimson king if you will,

[mighty zephyr]

i'm so mad

[sacred viper]

What the fuck is a Domain Expansion(I know its from JJK)

[queen heron]

Afaik (as a none JJK-er), it takes each sorcerers innate technique - their inner world, their funky gimmick - and projects it outward
Which boosts its power or targetting(? This is the part I’m less sure on)

[sacred viper]

Wiat let me read the wiki

[queen heron]

I think it used as a moment of triumph thing (which fucks hard - it literalizes bending the world to your will, bringing it closer to you)

If your technique is a theme, the domain expansion is its pinnacle

[sacred viper]

Oh yeah they fit WoD

[queen heron]

I actually first learned about jjk a year+ ago because of a mage homebrew spell

which like

did the same thing lmao

passed it onto my weeb friends they all said “this is Domain Expansion”

[grave gulch]

i was thinking, what kind of other supernatural creatures make good neutral npcs?

vamps can be neutral sure, but those are easy to think about thry were all normal peeps at some point

i understand that i don't need to use every kind of supernatural creature, but i do like to think of the possibility anyways

[queen heron]

wym neutral?

[late goblet]

cofd or owod?

[grave gulch]

owod

[late goblet]

mages

wraiths

[grave gulch]

wraiths? i heard about them before but i never looked deeply into it

[late goblet]

you can improv tbh

demons

fae

uhhhh

i guess imo fairies dont make that good of a neutral npcs, mostly because the way they are portrayed is boring

but it still there

[grave gulch]

[clear delta]

Mage the awakening could have domain expansion as an advanced use of Nimbus

[late goblet]

demons and fairies are essentially cosmically ancient reality bending entities locked in human bodies, their own personalities - a mix of trauma older than time, and the human they are inhabiting

[clear delta]

Demons can be chill if they put themselves in humans. Those who were just bound to objects when they entered the

[late goblet]

fairies can be put asleep by "banality" so they orbit around all things creative

[clear delta]

Oh you're already explaining

[late goblet]

demons also feed on emotions, so they tend to go in the same direction, but an important difference is that if the human body is slain, a demon can find a new one and come back

while a fairie will likely reincarnate later with no significant memory of this

this makes demons very cool recurring antagonists/npcs, as they can just hop bodies, essentially

[clear delta]

Demons who didn't enter humans are blinded by their Torment and are called the Earthbound.

[late goblet]

Fairies can enchant people, allowing them to see the chimerical world. vampires can be enchanted by drinking fae blood. Fairies are stronger against those that see into chimerical world, as it reveals their true form.

However, they can also manifest it into reality if they so wish, so that random teen girl can literally turn into a firebending knight and decapitate you

[grave gulch]

sounds neat

[late goblet]

dont fuck around with fairies

[grave gulch]

fairies are scary

[late goblet]

demons also have a true form they can manifest, that reflects what aspect of creation they were reigning over.
they can also give contracts to mortals and not so mortals, leasing some of their power

this is a form of infernalism and most factions in the game actively hunt down infernalists if they can

as characters, demons range from noble idealists to utterly deranged lunatics, depending on how they cope with trauma

earthbound dont make for good local npcs. they are also demons, but VERY powerful and untainted by being in a human, so they are more so eldritch gods than proper characters you can interact with in most campaigns

they make for great antags tho

[late goblet]

wraiths are bound to object and people they cared about in their life, and are also obsessed over the ideals and their unfinished deeds. strictly speaking its unlikely characters will see them directly, as its hard for them to physically manifest AND its also literally against the wraith law and ghost police might just arrest them

doesnt mean they dont do it anyway

[grave gulch]

ghost police? wowie

[late goblet]

most wraiths however are not strong enough to manifest so their interaction with the "skinlands" (living world) will likely be limited to making objects fly, writing in dust, making electronics freak out

fun fact

a ghost can get into your pc and hack you

there are also sublines as we call them in my community that could be interesting for you

Mages are ones that employ true magick, straight up rewriting rules of reality

this isnt the only type of magic tho

Sorcerers employ magic that is still accepted by the consensus. usually its very minor stuff, like luck charms, but they can also summon spirits or objects and do alchemy

blood sorcery is a form of sorcery and can technically be used by mortals

as far as sorcerers crusade rules went irc if you had access to vitae and knew how to do, you could use thaumaturgy

[grave gulch]

damn, that does sound like it would make a neat npc

[late goblet]

but that was something that couldnt really happen in practice because of how tremere guard their secrets (despite every third big npc in vtm having dots in thaumaturgy for no reason)

for sorcerers crusade there were rules for blood magic that doesnt include vitae. it was a merit/flaw (dont remember which) that allowed the character to do their magic by damaging themselves instead of doing more complex preparations

another interestint subline are revenants

so all wraiths have a sort of a split personality disorder

they have themselves (psyche) that really cares about fetters and passions they had in life, and they have (shadow). shadow is them at their worst, a parasite trying to consume the psyche

its not a literal split personality but its treated like that mechanically and its an easy way to explain it

if both the psyche and the shadow are in agreement tho, they can come back

possess their old body and rise from the grave

as long as the two work together

they can roam the living world as their old self

in that state they behave very similar to vampires, including getting access to both vampiric disciplines AND arcanoi, however they dont feed on blood and are practically indestructible

a body will reform as long as phylactery (dont remember the term for it) exists

[velvet sparrow]

Well, they get access to the physical disciplines

[late goblet]

While a revenant exists, the split is intensified. Psyche and shadow separate. One of them always occupies the body, one of them occupies the phylactery. They switch places from time to time.

Do note that despite agreeing to do this together, both sides of the wraith still want opposite things.

[velvet sparrow]

A revenant's not running around with Obtenebration or Presence. They might have Arcanoi that can create similar effects, though

[late goblet]

Motivation for a revenant could be something like

"i want to see my children again"

So they do

Then shadow tries to take over

succeeds

and murders the kids

irc this is straight up what happens in the intro story for revenants

its very sad

shadow will actively try to destroy everything that the wraith holds dear once they get an opportunity, being a revenant just gives them this opportunity

for a less heavy theme, and as npc, you could play it sorta like jekyll and hyde situation

[queen heron]

that was the spells thrust, I think

”Prime Making - literalize my shadow name / nimbus tilt”

base nimbus reworks could also do it the systems a little meh

[clear delta]

What were the problems with changeling the dreaming? Only how banality worked?

[late goblet]

depends on what you mean by problems

[clear delta]

Criticism, flaws

[grave gulch]

is vampire invisibility like predator invisibility?

[queen heron]

sometimes, probably

I imagine the mirage-y vamps, or the darkness themed ones might change themselves to become invisible

but normally I think its more of a mental affect

vampires make you unable to see them, or register them as abnormal, or whatever

thats Obfuscate

[late goblet]

what vampire and what invisibility you mean?

[grave gulch]

Nosferatu can go invisible besides controlling rats right?

[late goblet]

if you mean obfuscate, then no, they dont actually become invisible, its more like, idk, antimemetic effect of sorts

you dont register them being there

but they dont actually go transparent and all of that

[grave gulch]

oh

neat neat

[late goblet]

thats why their invisibility ability is countered by doing stuff that attracts attention to you

[grave gulch]

by "you" you mean the vampire?

[late goblet]

correct

they can also change their appearance but thats not a physical change

they just look like something else

[grave gulch]

like let's say we are in a park

they can look like a funny tree?

[late goblet]

not really irc

this ability is called mask of thousand faces and its specifically about looking like someone else

they can look like you tho

exactly like you

with some things off probably

or they can just stand there and you wont notice them

most cant disappear out of sight when noticed tho, thats a high level ability

[queen heron]

yeah its not so much "Controlling illusions" so much as (at least how reqiuem puts it) tapping into Da Beasts stalking predator nature

a lot of vampire powers operate that way, working around the vibes of the beast more than control over something

[grave gulch]

so i'm taking notes on the vampire clans that show up in the "Fall of London" so i have an ideia on the kinds of vampires that are more common in that setting

and in that campaign book there's this one tremere vampire from House Carna

apparently is a feminist group as well as a house

don't got much to say about that just thought it would be interesting to share it here

[rare swallow]

Yeah, Carna split up from the main clan and formed her own house of mostly women. However it's still clan tremere

So it's not all roses

[late goblet]

girlboss (its abuse)

(i hate tremere)

[rare swallow]

I talked about it once to someone and they explained it's a very girlboss vibe, if that makes sense

[grave gulch]

yeah

[waxen onyx]

pfft domain expansions

back in my day we called them reality marbles smh

[mighty zephyr]

Nasu-verse isn't real, Winged.

go back to sleep.

[waxen onyx]

https://i.imgflip.com/6fwpql.jpg?a473448

[grave gulch]

Silly Mah

ur not that old

[mighty zephyr]

Speaking of JJK

I'm working on my fan splat a bit more

[grave gulch]

how would u flavor a tremere in a different book Voy?

one that doesn't really have rules for them as enemies

[velvet sparrow]

They're vampires that can do even spookier shit than normal

[grave gulch]

can they use their blood as bullets?

also when i think of blood magic i also think of blood bending

[mighty zephyr]

I'd imagine yeah they're able to Telekinetically Manipulate Blood with all the stuff that comes with that.

[grave gulch]

i see

lots of tremere in London, and since i plan on having a Salubri supporting NPC it would be good to have them!

i should figure out the rolls they should do to resist/avoid their stuff now

would it be more physical or mental? or a mixture of both?

[mighty zephyr]

Depends on what you're making them do.

[grave gulch]

right

they spend blood doing their stuff right? not just the tremere, i meant most vampires when using their powers

[late goblet]

Correct

[queen heron]

for oWoD is it literally blood?

I know reqiuem leans more into Vitae, and its just spread through blood (or breath, or warmth)

[late goblet]

Its called vitae, which metaphysically is blood that is imbued with quintessence in some special way

Vampires are universal constants so they kinda just work

Any blood that enters a vamp becomes vitae

Vitae is capable of mimicking or turning into other bodily fluids

Vitae also has special properties when ingested by others

I think the funniest bit of owod lore is that vampires are actually just blood.

theres a special part of vitae that is PHYSICALLY a vessel of their soul

This also goes into why vampires can turn into blood or theoretically leave their bodies

Setting gets contradictory on that tho

But this is why vampires can physically drink eachothers souls and get changed by it

tldr its blood but magic

[mighty zephyr]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ODDSQc2c1BJ2YhCinorbNC3bSv0ztjmRF4WMUv56ix4/edit?usp=sharing

Biggo Updatedo

[mighty zephyr]

Not sure what else I wanna add tbh

just from an initial chicken scratch homebrew

I have no incentive to release this or anything

so this hack may just remain a weird thing I eventually inflict on my players

Ah, right, creating cursed tools

[clear delta]

Yeah, domain expansion sounds like reality marble. The concept was made more popular. And there isn't misinformation about needing an "inhuman mindset", so that's nice.

Wish daemons popped up more in the nasuverse

[mighty zephyr]

Man okay

Reno's Domain Expansion is gonna essentially send your ass to the orbit of Jupiter for a few seconds

basically exposing you to the vacuum of space as the sun arises

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA2-Dhl4-is

literally just gonna be this

[grave gulch]

can't we just talk about this?

[grave gulch]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN WEREFOXES

[hidden rock]

oWoD has an entire zoo of changing breeds.

[late goblet]

yea

most of them were genocided by the garou tho

[grave gulch]

yeah i know .w.

pretty sad

and lots of them were chill too

the Garou were really bad people weren't they?

[late goblet]

yep

i actually played as a few changing breeds

pretty fun

[hidden rock]

self-righteous as all hell

[late goblet]

i played nuwisha and nagah

[grave gulch]

they had rules for that? or did yall need some homebrewing to make it work?

[late goblet]

they had rules

[grave gulch]

that's so coooooooool

[late goblet]

its like

a subline stuff i was talking about, essentially

theres the main wolf book, and it has garou tribes and such, etc, etc

and then theres a changing breed supplement which instead of tribes has different breeds and unique mechanics for them

and then there are specific rulebooks, like book of nuwisha and book of nagah which expand upon that specific breed

[late goblet]

those are kinda shit

[grave gulch]

i see

i feel like that would be cool to have in 5th edition even if the only added them as enemies/npcs

[rare swallow]

I'm currently making a Risen npc for a subplot I'll be running for someone else's VtM game

Passions and Fetters are always the hardest part of making a WtO character

Gotta give a lot of thought

[grave gulch]

Risen?

[rare swallow]

Risen are Wraiths who, through a chain of very complicated and forbidden actions, attained knowledge on how to return to their bodies.

They're marginally slightly like kindred, but also way different

They need emotions instead of blood
They use Arcanoi instead of disciplines. Though do have access to Fortitude, Potence and Celerity
They can go out in the Sun

But like kindred they are
Very dead
A walking corpse
Pale
Can't ingest food or liquids, including blood (which usually gives away their different nature to kindred)

There's more to it, but that's the basic gist

[grave gulch]

i see

that's neat

also i'll say

if it wasn't for the Camarilla

being a Thin blood doesn't sound all that bad

[rare swallow]

Eeeh

If it wasn't for any non thin blood

Kindred will still be assholes about it and see you as a glorified ghoul

[grave gulch]

tru

[rare swallow]

Which means they will treat you like one

And try to use you as one

[grave gulch]

something that's funny to me tho

they have a much easier time sneaking past the 2nd inquisition's efforts to take out the kindred

since they are almost human they can bypass a lot of shit and hide

[rare swallow]

It would depend on the individual thin blood I think

Some thin bloods are more human passing than others

It's a bit of a spectrum condition I guess

Some can walk in the sun, some can still eat

But not all, not always

Sometimes you're just a glorified ghoul who can't go out in the sun and can only drink blood still

Sometimes you're basically human

And there's just every kind of combination of it in-between

[grave gulch]

so it can go from pretty alrigth to the worst thing ever

[rare swallow]

Yeah

[grave gulch]

at that point it's better to be a regular ghoul

[rare swallow]

And if you're in V5 land, disciplines aren't even a guarantee
Not all thin bloods have access to blood alchemy so they can at least have some way to have supernatural powers

[rare swallow]

Depending on the ghoul, yeah lol

I would not want to be a Tzimisce's ghoul lmao

[grave gulch]

i saw the pictures

those guys are Fucked up

[rare swallow]

• You become a ghoul and have super natural abilities 👌
• Your master is Sabbat 💀

[grave gulch]

lots of tzimisce in the sabbat as well right?

[crystal fern]

I've never played as one but I did make my V5 coterie fight a Rokea guarding an underwater cairn

[grave gulch]

shork

[rare swallow]

Tzimisce are a bit complicated because really they're kinda like Gangrel where most of the clan is Autarkis, but never loudly so. They're usually going to be found in the Sabbat, but they're more self serving

[grave gulch]

was it a blahaj?

[rare swallow]

Lasombra however are like the Sabbat clan

[crystal fern]

it was a fucking monster and it almost destroyed two of them the first time, they barely managed to get away though. The second time they prepped for a week and went full Jaws on it with large amounts of explosives

[grave gulch]

are the Lasombra in V5?

[crystal fern]

never underestimate kindred with access to a lot of resources and time to prepare

[grave gulch]

never understimate anyone who got time to prepare for you honestly

[crystal fern]

yes, and they're joining the Camarilla in V5 which is juicy

god now I think about it, that chronicle was completely batshit

The cairn was in the sunken ruins of Lyonesse, and was one of the few remaining ways you could access the Round Table (an extradimensional space created by Merlin that originally had entrances all over the UK, so Arthur could call his lords to him) from which they were trying to "recover" (steal) an artefact for Morgan le Fay and find Arthur's resting place so they could abduct him, this shit was wild

[grave gulch]

that's a lot of names

[crystal fern]

Morgana had her magic bound by Merlin who then disappeared (Ascended? nobody is quite sure); she tried to get around the curse by doing a variant of the Rite of Usurpation, but like, definitely fixed this time. Spoilers: it was not fixed, she destroyed her own avatar and effectively became a Hecata. So she has spent a lot of her unlife trying to undo Merlin's works out of spite.

The PCs gave her Arthur. Like just abducted him from his resting place under Glastonbury via the round table and handed him over to her. Naturally she turned him. Shit was wild

[clear delta]

So, I don't have cofd fox shifters. But there are weird fox Claimed with a connection to an ancient fox god, written by a developer but unofficial
Trying to find now

[crystal fern]

after she turned him, she dumped him on the PCs to dispose of as they wished, so of course they brought Vampire Arthur home and handed him over to the Tremere Prince of Oxford

[clear delta]

https://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/werewolf-the-forsaken/1415558-2e-update-siten-uzu-the-fox-chosen
Here's a nice bit of horror and strangeness of the foxes
Tw: mention of gore and rotting corpses, s**cide

||Sometimes they form snarled little conspiracies of competing tricksters that cause havoc until one red dawn when something massive moves through the dreaming minds of the local human population and then the Siten Uzu in the area are all gone—all of them, not just these greater ones—but for a few slimy loops of intestinal viscera and a lingering sense of something beautiful and wondrous. Sometimes they gather troupes of lesser Siten Uzu and raise up little cults, coaxing fox spirits into pacts with wide-eyed humans, until they have enough to seek out the levers of local human power and live in decadent luxury. Sometimes they bury themselves together, beneath the fields, in a suicide pact, and as their rotting flesh turns to dirt, bounteous yet unsettling crops grow from that earth; rice grains that glisten and sometimes twitch like maggots, or apples fat and juicy yet almost coppery in taste. In time, one fox spirit forms in the soul of a human who has eaten of that strange bounty, possessing the combined might of all the spirits who merged with the earth.||

[crystal fern]

also the round table turned into a space station after a long and complicated series of events involving murdering some mages and attracting the attention of the technocracy and a void engineer massively botching a roll, overwriting the round table's fundamental base paradigm due to paradox backlash

complete nonsense

[mighty zephyr]

Oh those are, technically, Fox shifters

because I think the canon of that writer is that Uratha are just Shards of Father Wolf

[spice abyss]

Turning into animals is a thing that can just mystically happen in Chronicles without you necessarily being like a werewolf.

You might even turn into a wolf and not be related to the Uratha at all.

[grave gulch]

[rare swallow]

Yes, they actually desert the Sabbat and join the Camarilla

[grave gulch]

why's that?

cause that feels like quite the radical change

[rare swallow]

~~Because in V5, the creators decided Sabbat should be unplayable ~~

Lore reasons

Mostly the Sabbat is a very easy 2nd Inquisition target, and the Lasombra are self serving

Like any kindred

[grave gulch]

fair

[rare swallow]

But also mainly this

[grave gulch]

that kinda sucks

[crystal fern]

there were a lot of decisions taken for V5 which primarily served to refocus the game back down to street level politicking with the Camarilla, like pitching the power level down, getting rid of entrenched elders, refocusing on the Anarchs as the Camarilla alternative, cutting down on the diversity of powers and bloodlines

[grave gulch]

sounds like V5 wasn't all that great then

[crystal fern]

personally I think it was very successful at what it set out to do, it's just there are a lot of older players who are unhappy with those changes

[grave gulch]

i should be fine then

[mighty zephyr]

Which is sorta the crux with a lot of 5ths problems

[crystal fern]

honestly it's fantastic, it knows what it wants to be and doesn't let itself get dragged down by the bloat of previous editions so much

there are problems with it for sure

the book layout is amongst the worst of any professionally published RPG I've played, and there are rules which are a bit unfocused

[mighty zephyr]

I mean in general, the old guard never stop talking about everything that's changed

In general with everything 5th edition wod

[crystal fern]

but for certain kinds of story I'd much rather play this edition, I think there's a lot of very cool ludonarrative design baked in

[mighty zephyr]

I keep telling people this and no one believes me

I think my only big problem with vampire 5e are the clans and diablerie

Diablerie being weak is the fucking worst

[crystal fern]

the hunger mechanic I think is one of my favourite pieces of V5's design, it's so much more interesting than blood points and it really helps bring hunger and feeding to life at the table

I wish I'd gotten to play my thinblood character longer, I enjoyed playing with the resonance system too

[mighty zephyr]

Yknow I guess thinblood alchemy could be a good stand in for Ordo Dracul stuff

[rare swallow]

Eeeh it's
Like, there are some mechanics there I really like, and I think it's not bad and I definitely want to play it
But I'm not going to pretend it's not controversial and has some weird decisions

[clear delta]

It simplified disciplines

[mighty zephyr]

My main problem with the v5 clans is that I think they coulda done what Requiem did and make all of them unique

Rather than SOME of them unique

[grave gulch]

i see

[rare swallow]

Yeah

Some of their decisions with disciplines boggles my mind

[velvet sparrow]

See, everyone says this and I completely fail to see how

From eveything I read it seems they just made them more complex and confusing?

Like, they went from having I-don't-know-the-exact-number-so-let's-just-use-20 Disciplines that do one thing each,

To 10 Disciplines that sometimes do 20 different things depending on which ones you combine them with.

Like, how is that more simple? It's not? It's the same amount of powers spread across less Discplines with a web of prerequisites?

[clear delta]

Is that so? I just saw a lot of "this weird discipline got replaced by this more common one"

So they kept all effects?

[velvet sparrow]

They kept all the main Disciplines

They trimmed most of the like, 4-5 dot powers from them though I believe

I'm not saying whether the system is bad or not, I just don't understand why it's constantly called simplified because it really just seems like it's more complex?

[rare swallow]

Basically

They removed almost all unique disciplines

And fused them into somewhat lore accurate things

Like Chimerstry into Obfuscate

Because illusions, I guess

Vicissitude into Protean, because body morphing… I guess???

And some are absolutely fucking ridiculous

They also didn't know what to do with Obtenebration and Necromancy so they stapled the two together and called it Oblivion

[velvet sparrow]

What are some ridiculous ones? I can't remember and couldn't find any from my looking

[rare swallow]

Oh gods

Uuuh

I saw Obeah/Valeren is a single little power of Dominate…? I think??

[velvet sparrow]

It's Auspex/Fortitude, I believe

[rare swallow]

Oh yeah they also turned whole disciplines into sometimes single powers in other disciplines

Like

Koldunic sorcery

Is

A single dot of Blood Magic

The first dot

That's it

That's all Koldunism gets

[velvet sparrow]

And like, I agree that there was a lot of bloat and Disciplines becoming unfocused

I just think that they chose a very confusing way of dealing with it?

[rare swallow]

They chose the worst way of dealing with it I feel

That way makes most people angry about losing something unique about their favourite clans

[velvet sparrow]

And they do other things that are really cool, like the hunger die

[rare swallow]

Like I'm completely unaffected because my favourites are Nosferatu, Gangrel and Lasombra, and they all didn't lose anything

Yeah. Hunger die, the way the humanity track works

[late goblet]

if you remember me explaining revenants, thats a risen

[rare swallow]

The coterie being a metacharacter

[late goblet]

i dont remember where i got the revenant word from but i think both are valid ways to call them

same thing, that is

[velvet sparrow]

And then it feels like they say that playing the Sabbat is badwrongfun?

[rare swallow]

What

[late goblet]

yea thats my main gripe with v5

[rare swallow]

No Revenants are mortals who produce their own vitae

[late goblet]

oh yea thats true

[rare swallow]

They're like Ghouls+

[late goblet]

i fucked up then xd

Remember that, bratovic and the like

[velvet sparrow]

Oh yeah they are

[mighty zephyr]

I think the problem with Masquerade is that there's just too many clans.

[late goblet]

i really dont think it is

its basically a clan per general party archetype

and then irrelevant shit

[mighty zephyr]

I think that's a problem tbh

[late goblet]

for lorepeople to learn about and play

I think its fine, really

[mighty zephyr]

Because there's a lot of vampires that hit party archtypes but not VAMPIRE archtypes

so they just have weird power fantasies that don't really make any sense

[velvet sparrow]

I genuinely believe that you cannot fix Masquerade without making a lot of people attached to it very angry, and I question if it's even worth trying instead of just... starting over

[late goblet]

i think most VAMPIRE archetypes would make for a very bad intro into a setting

has why a lot of stuff thats like more folklore leaning was sabbat vampires, with lasombra and tzimisce

[mighty zephyr]

I mean they did that with Werewolf and everyone got mad

[velvet sparrow]

Requiem does it fine?

[late goblet]

you can, really

I think v5 is fine, outside of discipline rework

I still dont see whats the logic behind it

I guess that on top of new mechanics felt like it was too much?

since v5 is meant to actually attract new people and not be v20 thats just a compilation of everything at once

[velvet sparrow]

I feel like we're getting into 5e bashing and I want to say: if you enjoy Vampire 5th that's wonderful

[late goblet]

I dont think thats what they say, imo it was just a way to cope out of having to introduce rules for sabbat clans early on

[velvet sparrow]

I'm happy you do, I just am confused and unhappy with some of the descisions they made

[late goblet]

since role of sabbat as goon type antagonists that still pose a threat was taken over by the inquisition

[velvet sparrow]

They could have just... done that, though?

[late goblet]

thats true!

[velvet sparrow]

Say "We're taking the time to do Sabbat rules right."

[late goblet]

there was a ton of weird decisions

[mighty zephyr]

I mean the Sabbat was basically just gutted and pieced into the Cammies and Anarchs

[late goblet]

I am still unsure if I personally like blood resonance. I think it adds a lot to rp potential but i will be honest it feels like such a specific experience to pursue

[rare swallow]

Blood resonance is cool on paper

[late goblet]

yep, "sabbat left" and then clans were re-introduced piece by piece

[rare swallow]

Til you are a ST and then you have to figure out what emotional state any human is at any moment

[late goblet]

really dont like what they did with tzimisce

[mighty zephyr]

I mean

I'll say as a ST you should probably be able to do that if asked

[late goblet]

i think its just like
i am unsure how to play it proper

[rare swallow]

Yeah but there are some really specific emotions

[velvet sparrow]

But with imo the most interesting part of playing Sabbat stripped away

[late goblet]

like sorry not sorry but blood is a resource that in my experience gets spent fast

[rare swallow]

At that point you might as well make a random table and roll on it

[velvet sparrow]

You also had to do that in earlier editions, if you had a player with Auspex

[late goblet]

how do i make it an interesting scene that integrates resonance into it and in a way that doesnt make people uncomfortable

it feels like an extra step that quickly becomes tedious to do

[rare swallow]

@velvet sparrow
I mean yeah, that's fair
But aura reading I feel doesn't come up on random background nameless NPCs as often as resonance would

[late goblet]

like you can rule it as "oh i want sanguinic so i go to the club and seduce a guy and thats it" but uhhh whats the point lmao

[mighty zephyr]

I think it's fair that if people want a specific resonance that they can just find a place where people feel that

[rare swallow]

Yeah
Tho a depression resonance for example

[mighty zephyr]

The point is I feel like to encourage you to become a habitual hunter and to want and fight over specific feeding grounds

[late goblet]

i am just unsure what added by it
like i think its a neat idea for like

[rare swallow]

Is uh yeah

[late goblet]

a book

its cool in setting

but it feels very hard to play over

It would fit in a more sandboxey narrative maybe

[mighty zephyr]

I mean if you think feeding on someone with depression is bad wait until you hear about

The murder

[late goblet]

but i dont think most people play vtm as a sandbox?

[rare swallow]

I don't think it's bad, I think it's so extremely specific idk
I like wraith, it literally has the depression legion, I'm okay with depictions of it

Just the system of resonance for me feels like something that would feel old

And would probably interrupt RP a bit too often with players going "what's their blood resonance" or such questions

I dunno

To me it's cool on paper but execution is probably clunky

[mighty zephyr]

I mean the thing is that like

the book encourages, specifically, that feeding scenes are cordoned off from the rest of the story

They are their own Thing and should have their own considerations

[late goblet]

i still want to play a wraith campaign post orpheus
there was a concept that ww flung around but never really expanded upon, with the lost legion being somewhere in the chasm

[rare swallow]

That could be neat

[late goblet]

wouldnt make for a classic wraith experience but more of a grotesque fantasy story

[rare swallow]

I guess,…

I mean, I always like taking Wraith into the horror approach
The afterlife is full of terrifying shit

[late goblet]

Yea but its weird, because its also more of a focus in v5

in previous eds it often felt like feeding could be written off like
"roll for blood", but it feels less justified now

[rare swallow]

I'm planning on running a PbP one shot for my VtM group that's going to be all about doppelgangers and spectres just being scary

[late goblet]

i love jumpscaring people who dont know wraith lore with wraith lore bits

especially the money

[rare swallow]

"Congratulations, you all died yesterday. There is something really wrong in this Necropolis."

[mighty zephyr]

And that's a complete change that they wanted to overhaul because I think that yeah like

That's not good for a vampire game

[late goblet]

i agree!

That why i personally never gmed vtm tbh

For some reason vampire feeding is much harder for me to make engaging

Demons, fairies and wraiths all feed on magic-emotion-stuff so its kinda easier to work with it

[rare swallow]

I mean, when it comes to feeding and V5
Like
Making it more important is fine, because it is part of the vampire experience. But it's definitely a preference thing.

I do love how Passions work in Wraith, tho
Just keeping in mind the emotions being felt by your character, "feeding" comes in naturally

Through play and roleplay

Without interrupting stuff

[late goblet]

mhm!

Its also kinda how it feels in dtf

less so in changeling tho, but thats the issue of changelings themes in general

[mighty zephyr]

I mean yeah but also like that's one of the things I dislike about those systems because I prefer shit like Werewolf the Forsaken

where you hunt for food

It's proactive and visceral and cool

[late goblet]

it is a preference thing

Although its important to note that in dtf and ctd you also often have to hunt

[rare swallow]

I mean in Wraith you can go looking for certain emotions as well, and you could have passions that are visceral

It's all about the strong feelings

[mighty zephyr]

Well yeah but inherently that's gonna be less visceral than killing a guy

[rare swallow]

W e l l

Dark passions exist

Your shadow could absolutely be into killing people

That is literally the shadow I'm shadowguiding for

The Psyche is a doctor who has taken the Hypocritic Oath
The Shadow is an abusive asshole who wants to hurt others

We're doing a Jekyl and Hide thing

It's great

[rotund lynx]

yippeee!!!!

I played wta all night yesterday

[velvet sparrow]

Yippeee!!

[mighty zephyr]

Which edition?

[rotund lynx]

20th

I believe

[mighty zephyr]

nice nice nice

how'd you like it?

[rotund lynx]

Ive player before, but this time was really what got me familiarized with the setting and flow of the game

[mighty zephyr]

I have decided btw

that I think I'm gonna give all the Void Spirits Nier themes

because I think that's appropriately dramatic but alien music

[grave gulch]

what would be a better "antagonist" faction to my players? the Arcanum or the Society of Leopold?

[late goblet]

leopold is generally good fit for antagonists if you are not planning on adding stuff like "oh but this guy isnt that evil and just misguided"

[grave gulch]

nah if i'm thinking of having a former member maybe but that's it, he left for a reason, i'm just trying to think what would be the best way to use them

[velvet sparrow]

Leopold is more specifically about hunting down "monsters", while the Arcanum is moreso learning about them (and then realising "Oh shit these guys are pretty bad maybe we should use what we learn to stop them?") iirc

[late goblet]

Narrative purpose of leopold is that they are ultinate goons

They are just baddies

They hate everyone

[velvet sparrow]

I mean, I don't blame them

[late goblet]

And can vary in equipment as much as you want

[velvet sparrow]

Have you seen the shit supernaturals get up to in WoD?

[late goblet]

You can have them carry specops stuff, you can have them just stab a vamp to death

[grave gulch]

we playing hunter btw

[late goblet]

Theres not a single gameline thar leopold interacts wuth positively

They killed old hunters for not being good enough

They kill new hunters because those are monsters too

[velvet sparrow]

Not in H5, anymore

[grave gulch]

[velvet sparrow]

H5 went back to just being normal humans, Imbued are I think referenced off in the background?

[late goblet]

In h5 leopold are part of the new inquisition but i think they are basically the genocide specops, no?

[velvet sparrow]

They are.

[late goblet]

Oh you mean normal hunters

[grave gulch]

i see them being the kind of like "oh, ur in the line of fire? don't care "

[velvet sparrow]

So, they don't hunt new hunters cause they're monsters, but they're still highly unlikely to get along

[late goblet]

I think you can write an ex-leopold as an antag, but i need to know what you kinda wabt to do with the antag in question

Since you are playing hunter are they an antag because they help supernaturals, or because they are inhumanely brutal?

[grave gulch]

more because of their brutality, i can't see leopold helping out supernaturals at least not knowingly, that would be more like the Arcanum

[late goblet]

Yep
They still qualify as fascist goons you can shoot up without really thinking that much

[late goblet]

Why are they an exile then? Are they too brutal for the leopold?
Maybe they could engage in something not approved even by leopoldians

Blood magic would be a very easy fit for that purpose, thinking of sorcery again

Maybe they are actually possessed?

[grave gulch]

you misunderstand i want the Org itself to be an antagonist...all tho...a rogue guy being out there screwing people over sounds cool now

[late goblet]

Ohhh

Sorry

[late goblet]

I just thought you meant a single guy as an antag because of this

[grave gulch]

don't worry sorry for not being super clear about it

this is me 👉

[late goblet]

You can still have leopoldians, even not necessarily ex-members, be ultimately misguided people that could be redeemed

Society of leopold is kinda like sabbat in that regard, but slightly worse i guess

They are just notable for their position of hating LITERALLY everyone

Shit like black spiral dancers still works with like infernalists

[grave gulch]

if you aint human you aint a person basically?

[late goblet]

Thats more or less the position

They wage a war of extermination

To the point that vatican said "this is too much" and kicked them out

[grave gulch]

nice, i plan on having a Salubri as a supporting npc for my players, so there's an opportunity for conflict

[grave gulch]

and wow, that one i didn't know

i thought they were still part of the vatican

[late goblet]

They were allowed back in in v5

They form the basis of the Entity, once again, the inquusitions massmurder specops

For all its flaws even on conceptual level, the way leopoldians were portrayed in

ahem

[grave gulch]

heard they mostly wiped out the vamps in italy, which is why there's house carna in London now(the feminist tremere)

[late goblet]

VTM BATTLE ROYALE VIDEO GAME

was actually really interesting and good

Basic shit like "they use thermals to id vampires" is something i didnt even think about until the game pointed it out tbh

[grave gulch]

oh yeah! those cameras they use are a thing in both Hunter and Vampire books

[late goblet]

The idea of a guy just noticing you after a few seconds and gunning you down without second thought is just very scary to me as a vamp player lmao

Although vamps can spend blood to raise tgeir temp to normal, i dont think it was elaborated if it actually rauses it or is it something else

[grave gulch]

yes, and the thin bloods do it without even trying

there's a rising risk of the 2nd generation of those cams tho

which can find the kindred even if they raise their body temp

they are stated to be quite rare tho

[late goblet]

In bloodhunt it wasnt even cams btw, they just had thermal sights
You know like night vision goggles? That shit but thermal

[grave gulch]

OOH

[late goblet]

They cant just walk around in military gear though

[grave gulch]

huh thermal goggles probably work fine for that

[late goblet]

Nornally

Requires permissions and all if that

Goons in fully military gear gunning down people seemibgly at random is something pretty scary to civvies as you could guess

But thats v5, "classic" leopoldians are kinda too poor xd

[grave gulch]

X-scope seems to be the name, they are not necessarily cameras apparently

[grave gulch]

really? thought they would have a ton of money

vatican and all that

is there any deep detail on their operations?

or do we mostly know about their uuh

results

[late goblet]

Once again, pre v5 leopoldians are excommunicated and not endorsed

[grave gulch]

right right

oh sorry, i didn't read up on "classic"

[late goblet]

in v5, they are reintegrated, and thus have financial backing of the whole inquisition

Mhm

[late goblet]

Tbh never read on it

[grave gulch]

my friend said he owns the 2nd inquisition book, i could ask him about it, there's some info on them here on the Hunter book too

[late goblet]

I think the leader of leopoldians in new orleans is a free ghoul but might be misremembering, but thats the extent of my memory in that regard

[grave gulch]

that's interesting

vamps can enslave you by ghouling you, right?

[late goblet]

Correct

Its also an addiction

[grave gulch]

ooh, so they can also like do that to people hunting them...

that sounds really scary

[late goblet]

It is and it is often fucked up

[grave gulch]

something to consider for the game then

[late goblet]

I suggest avoiding ghouling your pcs

Or, at least, avoiding having them bonded to living vampires

[grave gulch]

nah not them

was just thinking of the possibility of a double cross involving that

[late goblet]

On that note i suggest you check out hunter the parenting if you didnt yet

[grave gulch]

i have that's what got me into WoD to begin with

[late goblet]

Did you check the audiologs?

[grave gulch]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1014538127722946600.gif?size=128&quality=lossless

||officer who drinks blood like it's crack||

[clear delta]

Vampires can blood bond each other. Codependency go!

[grave gulch]

oh yeah

Kevin told me!

well he told DeeDee but i like to pretend i was there

[little light]

But it’s not the end, you can either try to steal vitae by killing vampires or get clean

[velvet sparrow]

Important note about getting clean:

Once you do, you rapidly age as if you had never drank any vampire blood in the first place

Not so bad if you've been on it for a year or two

Lethal if you've been a ghoul for the better part of 3 centuries

[queen heron]

The Hedge moved to layout

interesting to see what they lean into for its presentation

2es hedge is kinda a lot of things at once

Pain and Trauma Dimension versus Realm of Dreams versus Storybook Trails

[grave gulch]

i know i don't need to know a whole lot about each supernatural book before i use them

but the lore is cool and i'm a nerd!

[mighty zephyr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RbGZZnUR3g

Mage music

Specifically Seers

[sacred viper]

Hmm how well does Demon do in PbP?

[mighty zephyr]

Which one

[sacred viper]

Descent

nWoD in general tbh

[mighty zephyr]

It can work if people stick with it

Also you probably want to use troupe xp

[grave gulch]

i took my own wallet hostage

am also reading through the werewolf book

hehe

imma steal this guy

or maybe i wont i don't wanna include Werewolves all THAT much, even tho they have some mentioned territory in london so it would make sense to have one or 2 show up

but well i do wanna have a few different monsters too

i'll also take suggestions for neat looking monsters if you guys have any

[velvet sparrow]

Just remember that WoD Werewolves are 7 foot tall magically engineered supersoldiers designed to kill anything and everything

As for neat looking monsters, possible controversial opinion here: Make some up!

Let your World of Darkness be weird and scary and undiscovered

[grave gulch]

i know

making some up is a good idea

[queen heron]

I’ve seen mage go hard with a group thats really into painting the scene with magic descriptions and Big Spells

Definitely need to tilt the system towards less, but more impactful rolls imo

[grave gulch]

btw

do UV lights do anything to vampires?

[velvet sparrow]

No.

[grave gulch]

ok good to know

[velvet sparrow]

Well, some vampires might be especially sensitive to light in a way that UV lights might effect them,

[grave gulch]

the book was being unclear on that

[velvet sparrow]

But it's specifically The Sun

(Unless they changed it in 5th edition)

[grave gulch]

don't think they did

[late goblet]

I think they hate the sun because they are explicitly magical

Fun fact, uv as a thing in the setting probably came ibto being AFTER vampires so thats probably why

[sacred viper]

Oh yes Mage definitely fits the flow of play by post

Im looking to running some classic spy stuff in Demon if my current game falls through thats why I am asking

[clear delta]

Cofd has a system for building weird one-off monsters

[queen heron]

ooo I think demon would be really fun if you have players who lean into the perfect control they have

focus on really minute details, or give running descriptions of what they think and what they do to highlight how different they are

or maybe don't even describe their thoughts at all for tense scenes

I did that for a guardian I played once, where, during a trial, I switched all my descriptions to "They appear to be" or "Their face shows" instead of "They are"

benefits of composure 4

[sacred viper]

👀

[patent talon]

Huuurrgghhhoooo that sounds amazing

[grave gulch]

have the same ammount of loyalist and traitor primarchs die?

counting Alpharius

so Alphy, Horus and uuuhhhh

konrad

[sacred viper]

This is not the warhammer thread

Tho hmm

[grave gulch]

fuck

i'm dumb

sorry

[sacred viper]

Spacemarines:The Crusading would be one hell of a fansplat

[grave gulch]

the threads are right next to each other

[late goblet]

And they both begin with W!

[clear delta]

So, what do cofd fans prefer.
Astral or shadow?

[queen heron]

ime its overwhelmingly Shadow

I think people have trouble integrating the Astral to the rest of the setting, or figuring out why people do there

I like a good bit of Astral Weirdness

[midnight grotto]

Astral has loads of potential but it's more detached from everything else

[clear delta]

True

Guess it's part of the demon and the space/mind theming that goetia need to be called in.

Would need to come up with a way to involve the astral. Besides los angeles

[midnight grotto]

Astral lets you rip off Psychonauts all you want tho so that's a plus

[clear delta]

Very true

Boole's cookout is a masterpiece

[queen heron]

you can do cool things with archetypes

visit Royalty in the Astral, have it wrap itself in the trappings of what the characters would see

its all concept association to move about

but the people who have the easiest time doing this (Mages) also can do kinda the same thing with Supernal Entities

so the Astrals less attractive

[clear delta]

Yeah. Saw promethean have astral powers you could keep upon becoming human

Could make it into a merit, if there isn't one already

Wonder how much it would take to stat up someone who deals with all three realms invisible

Get sensory merits for each

[queen heron]

theres a homebrew merit from a mage server about prometheans, but its more social

Creator: Ravnius
Prerequisite: New Dawn; Sleepwalker or Awakened

You have engaged in the holiest task that could ever be undertaken- and you have succeeded. As a former Promethean who has completed their long Pilgrimage and achieved the New Dawn, you are considered something of a saint-like figure for those among the Awakened who worship Humanity, and are at least an inspiring tale of heroism to others. 

Mechanics: All mages (excepting Prelates) who look at you with any Arcana in the Sight, or who just know your story in any detail, have their Impression of you increased by one level. Thearchs who do so increase their Impression by two levels. If you ever engage in Awakened society, you are considered to have two dots of Status (Silver Ladder) at minimum.

Drawback: Those who have sold their souls to the jailers of humanity react to you exactly the opposite. Mages with any dots in Prelacy are immune to all Social Maneuvering rolls you attempt, or any attempts to leverage any Status or other social merit to directly affect them.```

pretty neat

[clear delta]

No, I meant transfer the astral power prometheans get into a merit

[queen heron]

what do they get?

I read promethean twice, but idr anything about the astral

[clear delta]

Found it. Crane athanor

Can enter astral realms. Pays vitriol as a mage, willpowers as a mortal

Apparently, it's in astral realms pg 138

Oh, found a 2e merit for mortals. Astral adept

Aight. Merits for essense beings. Unseen sense. Medium. Astral adept. Camera obscura.

Unseen sense can be other spooky stuff too, of course

[queen heron]

mhm

[clear delta]

Hardened exorcist, consecrate weapon

[clear delta]

Camera lets you see entities and hurt them, but causes open condition and deals only bashing damage

[grave gulch]

[clear delta]

Consecrate weapon lets you do lethal damage

[clear delta]

Hmm. Would need to homebrew a way to bring goetia over from the astral

Not like mortals would have an easy time getting a spirit through the gauntlet or an avernian gate, either. But there are ways

Like the doorways connecting to the shadow. Spirits crossing in areas of thin gauntlet .

Avernian gates have conditions to open them

Anyway, so.eone wanting to multiclass into spirits and ghosts would just need to get multiple of unseen sense. The other merits are valid for both. Though camera obscura requires the unseen sense.

Stepping into astral stuff. Astral adept would be necessary for the fact you don't find goetia around.

[mighty zephyr]

Mage can Mind/Life to solidfy a Goetia.

Also Beasts are Just That.

[clear delta]

I mean, way for mortals or hunters

Beasts are just not in my interest, too

[clear delta]

Or some phenomenon for them to encounter that isn't just happening in los angeles

[grave gulch]

make me the town drunkard

[grave gulch]

i don't care if los Angeles is beeg I'm beeg too

[queen heron]

theres Synesi or whatever

the Astral does have physical doors into it

they're just suuuuuper rare

imo an individual's goetia aren't even a thing when nobodies looking at them

[clear delta]

Do goetia cross synesi on their own?

[clear delta]

Well, an interesting way of looking at it.
The personal goetia having personalities of their own would lead to a weird recursion, so them being formed from perception is interesting.
So I can't romance someone's goetia

[queen heron]

well esp I think it starts saying weird things about how thoughts work

your goetia doesn't make you feel X emotion, it is the representation of how your mind works

trauma dominating someones thoughts isn't because theres a literal little guy sqautting over their mind, its that when you delve into someones Oneiros thats what their trauma looks like

[queen heron]

also the recursion thing

I'd run Temenos beings as more stable or agentive, bolstered by the fact they're tapping into broad perceptions instead of being one persons

[clear delta]

Think I've seen the human mind compared to collectives of agents before. Like how swarms make decisions. An experiment in putting halves of the brain to sleep

[queen heron]

I'd believe it

I guess I'm more saying I don't detach peoples goetia from themselves, you know?

its not external

the goetia don't force you do things, thats just how thinking works + what it looks like in CofD

[grave gulch]

i have a quesiton

WoD werewolves are consumed by a blind range whenever they enter their war form

does that last for the entire duration

or are they able to control themselves after a spending a while in it

[mighty zephyr]

oWoD I presume?

[grave gulch]

yeh yeh

[mighty zephyr]

It used to be that Crinos could be something you take on whenever you want but now in 5th it's something you take on whenever you wanna kill something.

So yeah there's currently no mechanic about getting past that frenzy

[grave gulch]

i see

[mighty zephyr]

I think they took a lot of the vibes from Forsaken in that regard

Because now you don't have clothes in Crinos either

[grave gulch]

so i've heard

[mighty zephyr]

(Which is good imo because Garou form in Forsaken whips ass)

[grave gulch]

do they attack their own as well? or are they still capapble of recognizing wolves from their pack?

[mighty zephyr]

They seem to have taken the Soft/Hard Rage distinction from Forsaken as well

so at first you don't, but if you REALLY lose it, you will.

[grave gulch]

cool cool

[midnight grotto]

I feel so bitterly vindicated about WoD5 getting kicked off with "Yeah baby, the REAL World of Darkness is back!" and then half of it is just trying to ape NWoD

[mighty zephyr]

I will say

I've been surprised at how much NWoD is just oWoD stuff

So idk if Apocalypse previously had hard and soft rage or not

[hidden rock]

Originally, NWoD wanted to excise the concept of metaplot and put the world state in the ST's hands. It... sometimes went overboard, but it also brought along a fresh start to reconceptualize the splats and remove clunk that accumulated over 4 editions of OWoD.

[mighty zephyr]

Also I kinda derided 5th Apocalypse for Werewolves being kinda boring

And underpowered

but I will say

I didn't realize Rage dice were kinda jacked

[hidden rock]

I will never forgive NMage's switch away from subjective reality, but it is otherwise a clear upgrade as a game.

[mighty zephyr]

If you're inflicting violence on something your Rage dice makes it so you only really "fail" on a 3-5

Everything else is a success

And if you roll a 1-2 you get 4 successes

https://i.imgur.com/0O8coir.png

So like

[grave gulch]

same as in hunter hehe

[mighty zephyr]

A werewolf in Crinos with Rage 5 is actually able to just obliterate anything

[grave gulch]

better get away from it then

[hidden rock]

Or have been on another plane of existence since an hour ago

[mighty zephyr]

I still think I'm not a fan of needing to spend Rage to regenerate

[grave gulch]

what kind of die is rage dice?

[mighty zephyr]

a d10

[grave gulch]

right right

[midnight grotto]

I think an objective but mysterious Supernal is more interesting but I admit I don't have much experience with Ascension

[queen heron]

I think the Supernal needs more concretes

I get why they didn't

you're supposed to build your own

[midnight grotto]

It may be apocryphal but I heard that Ascension had been made to avoid actual occultism as much as possible to avoid satanic panic, whereas Awakening goes "okay here's the tenants of gnosticism"

[queen heron]

but some guidelines or hardline connections would've been better

[hidden rock]

The final Ascension book remains to me an excellent way to map out the "everything goes" style of oMage

[midnight grotto]

How so?

[sacred viper]

Its my favourite part

[hidden rock]

That the only reason the reality cannot sustain an absolute "anything goes" policy lies in the universe being flawed, and that flaw generates the conflict and suffering of the universe.

It kind of turns the buddhit mantra of "escape this reality of suffering and attain Nirvana" on its head by stating "bring Nirvana to this reality and banish suffering out of it"

[sacred viper]

https://fixvx.com/nyetalia/status/1745766412709224474?s=20

Wraith the Oblivion campaign premise

[mighty zephyr]

I will say that I kinda don't like that on a deeply philosiophical level

It's really hard for me to articulate

but I think the idea of removing all human suffering from a setting at the cost of everyone's humanity is usually a villain plot for a reason.

[hidden rock]

Okay, that "at the cost of everyone's humanity" feels like it came out of nowhere

I'm a tad confused RN

[mighty zephyr]

Well like

[midnight grotto]

The good guy endgame for both Mages likely stretches our current definition of human existence

[mighty zephyr]

From what I know of Mage the "fixing" of reality is making everyone essentially a god.

[hidden rock]

wiggle hands that doesn't sound very far off the mark, yeah

(Sorry, I'm being very careful in my wording since we're waist-deep in esoterism)

A god, or, some would say, a mage. The difference is subtle.

[mighty zephyr]

Well if you're completely detatched from our reality and can reshape it to your well based off your own subjectivity then yeah I'd find no reason not to call you a god at that point

*will not well

[hidden rock]

I'm guessing we're headed to the "limit of my right to wave my fist is just shy of your nose" thing

[mighty zephyr]

I don't know what you mean

[hidden rock]

Never mind then, I'm all ears

Well, eyes, but w/e

[mighty zephyr]

I think suffering is an inherent part of the human condition and that to remove it in a desire to "fix" humanity simply destroys humanity as a result.

Note that this isn't me being Catholic or whatever saying that suffering IS GOOD and that you should just let people suffer in your day-to-day or not try to change the world for the better.

But I think the idea of attaining an omnipotent paradise would just end up destroying individuality, love, creativity, fulfillment

[midnight grotto]

That seems like a problem with both Mages

[hidden rock]

Well, there was an interesting concept, and we're gonna go deeeeeeeep into End of Times Ascension spoilers.

[mighty zephyr]

It's hard to spoil End Times at this point lol

[mighty zephyr]

That's why I played an Adamantine Arrow lol

[midnight grotto]

Though Awakening is less focused on the idea of universal individual omnipotence because it doesn't hinge on the idea that reality is Just Like Your Opinion Man

[spice abyss]

Lame Mages: "Noooo, suffering is wrong and of the abyss!"

Chad Adamantine Arrow: "Existence is War"

[hidden rock]

The posited version of a "good ending" had people become the enforcers of their own reality, or to use an amusing metaphor, the Storytellers of their own campaign.

If your position is "willfull suffering for a good cause creates value", that's the rules of your game and nothing can hinder your Will

[midnight grotto]

Good point, I may be approaching this from a more Silver Ladder mindset because they're often very endgame-focused

[mighty zephyr]

Well the thing is like

Isn't that just lonely?

What happens to everyone I knew and loved?

Do I just have to recreate them?

Playing above them by myself?

It's being a storyteller without players

What's the point of a novel that no one else reads?

[hidden rock]

They're very much available, playing their own game, and you can invite them to your table.

[spice abyss]

I am realizing something

This just sounds like Gentry

[hidden rock]

And if there's disagreement, no-one can force others to play their game

[mighty zephyr]

oh my god

[midnight grotto]

I think either Mage endgame demands one consider paradoxes that don't fit our conception of... Anything, really

[hidden rock]

Very much so, yeah

[midnight grotto]

Like I see your viewpoint Voy but also we're existing firmly on the other side of that paradigm shift

I think it can be exciting to invite ideas that seem scary from our present state

[hidden rock]

(Also the very last line of that ending was "In the end, everything is just a game")

[mighty zephyr]

Well yeah

But I can also present the idea that changing something so utterly and completely is no different than destroying it.

[midnight grotto]

Incidentally that's also why I like Awakening better, because it implies the true nature of Reality is something we can't really comprehend from where we are, rather than a weird sort of omni-solipism

But again I'm much less familiar with it

[hidden rock]

OMage very much runs on the idea that the world is not right at its fundamentals and that's why it's the World of Darkness

[midnight grotto]

At the risk of looking like a hypocrite Ascension just seems a little too hippy-dippy for me

[hidden rock]

Fair

In many ways it really is the ultimate humanist power fantasy, so, that kind of colors reactions

[mighty zephyr]

It's really hard for me to put to words why I dislike old mage but I think it's just because it has the stuff I dislike about the implications of New Mage basically writ into the setting's bones.

Actually not "just" there's probably a bevy of reasons

But that's definitely a major facet

[midnight grotto]

I was starting up on a different angle when I realized the Ascension mindset is kind of carried over by the Free Council

Except a little less literally

[mighty zephyr]

(I dislike the Free Council so much)

The Milquetoast Order

[hidden rock]

I may have my own preferences for NMage Orders :3

(Although I'll admit FC and Myst are kinda meh to me)

[midnight grotto]

"human culture has magical properties and we can create a progressive new paradigm" is definitely a better hook for a faction than "Steampunk!" so that's why NMage is better lol

[hidden rock]

Yeah, FC has a lot of the "cultural magic" shtick that the OMage Traditions had, all rolled into one Order.