World of Darkness

[mighty zephyr]

while in Chronicles it's the name of a particular form.

[solemn helm]

1000th messagw

[mighty zephyr]

wha

[solemn helm]

the 1000th message posted in this thread

[velvet sparrow]

Ok?

[mighty zephyr]

I'm wondering how you tell that

[velvet sparrow]

I mean, it would've been nice if the 1000th message was something actually related to the thread

You can see how many messages there are in the place where you look at all the forums

[clear delta]

Anyway, werewolf the forsaken there's a bunch of words unique to it, from the language they invented.
The first tongue. It works by grabbing appropriate words from Sumerian and put them through Grimm's Law

[velvet sparrow]

#1161693671742259272

[mighty zephyr]

Well the 1000th message was

[velvet sparrow]

Oh, that's nice

[mighty zephyr]

theirs was the 1001th

1001rst?

how do you write that

[velvet sparrow]

(Apparently is is Gauru, not Garou)

[clear delta]

Grimm's law is a set of sound laws describing the Proto-Indo-European stop consonants as they developed inProto-Germanic as they developed in the 1st millenium BC

[solemn helm]

huh thats neat

[velvet sparrow]

I'd like to apologize for this, it was mean

[clear delta]

Envy, for example, is "neighbor-desire"

A stoplight is spirit is named by grabbing the Sumerian words for its colors

[mighty zephyr]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TSgzm7rkkXyobz7wHfIGhGHT34zItHorGJnxsIvsisU/edit

For a fun time

[clear delta]

Then there are other rules. Lunar choirs end in "lunim", because it's evocative of old angel names

[clear delta]

Oh, this does crossover with world of darkness

[mighty zephyr]

Well this is first edition + 2nd edition AND a fan-work

so probably references a bunch of oWoD concepts

[clear delta]

Spirits and such are so funny. Destroyer Wolf, Fenris-Ur, forgot his twin sister Creator Wolf for many years. He finally remembered and is now wandering the area he thinks she's in.

I think there was a spirit that was helped by a human and thanked her years later

[mighty zephyr]

I think I'm gonna make the Stillwater Spirit more of a Thing

Like a Magath

Charnel Pit, Full Yet Empty

[velvet sparrow]

No Vampire this week

[midnight grotto]

https://vxtwitter.com/cybertruck/status/1714740805422715301 why does this look like a wod book

[mighty zephyr]

https://i.imgur.com/p1QaY7P.png

Color mainly

[midnight grotto]

I meant why did they make it like that, but it was more a rhetorical question to give an excuse for a joke

[mighty zephyr]

Oh that's a fucking

Cybertruck add

I thought that was another RPG book I literally did not actually read it

[midnight grotto]

loool

what's a worse thing for a cybertruck to be, a Demon or a Promethean

[mighty zephyr]

Deviant

The Tesla Hit Squad is on your ass

Actually btw hey

does anyone think they could help me find some art for my Werewolf game

[sour zephyr]

i got the 5ed oWoD humble bundle today, i'm gonna read the vampire pdf soon

[velvet sparrow]

Nice!!

[sour zephyr]

thanks aurora

[velvet sparrow]

<3

[mighty zephyr]

Haaaave fun

[rare swallow]

Exciting!

Some friends I like but haven't talked to in a bit invited me to a VtM v20 game, I'm pretty excited

It'll be set in Ynys Mon and have a big focus on esoteric and occult stuff (which is right down my alley)

[mighty zephyr]

What's Ynys Mon?

[velvet sparrow]

Welsh.

[rare swallow]

It is an Island off the coast of Wales

https://prnt.sc/cAs5VPgNZdbY

Those friends in particular basically built up a bunch of WoD Wales lore

and bloodlines

it's cool

[mighty zephyr]

Oh sick

[solemn helm]

anything on Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychrywndrobwlllantysiliogogoch?

[rare swallow]

No, nothing on Llanfairpwllgwyngyll

That I know of

[midnight grotto]

Back in the day my buddies collaboratively made a 51st state called New Ireland and set most of their WoD games there

We had a sort of odd intertwined canon

New Ireland was an island off the Pacific coast and characterized by a state identity of scruffy independence. Also a lot of stuff that mostly made sense in the context of "state built from the ground up to play World of Darkness in."

[rare swallow]

Sounds cool!

[midnight grotto]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/404816013084065794/1164660304874049577/New_Ireland_version_2_flat.png?ex=6544056f&is=6531906f&hm=9eda7ab98462e977b196c1c84c91c4659a436571e4138d7dd6818bb45a98ae84& the guy who started it is real good with maps so when he said "the game will be set in New Ireland" and posted this my reaction for a few seconds was "oh yeah right that real place"

[rare swallow]

Personally just making up a whole "real world" city is probably nicer for groups of people that met up online. That way no one has kind of a better time RPing by just knowing the local area from being born there, etc

idk

[midnight grotto]

Yeah I like fake cities. The one from City of the Damned is a good placeholder.

[rare swallow]

Like I like the Wales games and stuff but I'm always very clueless about geography and landmarks and such compared to others

[clear delta]

Hmm, city that started existing recently, with a history.

[velvet sparrow]

My ST's run two games, both set in fake cities

Well, 3 games, one finished, two in progress, two set in one and a new city for the third

[solemn helm]

new conspiracy theory: new ireland is real

[lament river]

Currently listening to L.A. By Night while reading through the version 5 book.

[velvet sparrow]

Oh yeah, fun S1lv3r fact:

S1lv3r has directly pissed off an Elder Lasombra

[rare swallow]

Based

[velvet sparrow]

S1lv3r does not know they are a vampire

The Vampire does not know S1lv3r is a Mage

[rare swallow]

Pissing off the Lasombra is just something you gotta do, y'know

[velvet sparrow]

Look, I fucked with some corrupt executive's evil plan,

And apparently that made an elder vampire upset with me

Skill Issue

[rare swallow]

Yeah

[velvet sparrow]

(S1lv3r is gonna get her ass kicked)

[rare swallow]

Oh probably

[velvet sparrow]

Absolutely

[clear delta]

Obtenebration has some good powers, from what I've seen

What are S1lv3r's spheres?

[velvet sparrow]

Arete 3, Forces 2, Correspondence 2 (Affinity), Prime 1, Mind 1

[clear delta]

Get more forces, correspondence and matter, cram physics textbooks to figure out spells to cheese the fight

[velvet sparrow]

Lol

I was honestly thinking of going Correspondence/Forces/Prime

[clear delta]

This strategy won't work if the ST grabbed anti-cheese rules from cofd mage 2ed

[velvet sparrow]

Nope

[clear delta]

You want to do what with those?

[velvet sparrow]

Well, those are the Spheres I want to use

We're probably not gonna have like, lots of xp

I know with Cor/Forces I can pull Sunlight from elsewhere

And Forces/Prime'll let me straight up make the stuff

[clear delta]

Well, then. Let the cheese enter your organism, let its power overtake you.

[velvet sparrow]

What's the cheese?

[clear delta]

People can use knowledge of physics and chemistry to create combos of massive damage

Like transmute the ground into a pool of a toxic material that detonayes immediately

[velvet sparrow]

What're the anti-cheese rules, then?

[clear delta]

Oh, what I remember is that, in new Mage 2ed, any spell that doesn't use an existing hazard, like the radiation of a reactor, has to follow the rules:
-3 dots lets you do [sucesses] bashing damage. You can push the spell to add extra effects, like destroy the quintessence equivalent, stop use of a limb due to spatial distortions, make them more vulnerable to spirits.
-4 dots lets you do lethal damage. You may push it to cause aggravated, but costs 1 quintessence. You may find the previous extra effects or more potent effects.
-Five dots is where the direct instakills were banished to. You can figure out indirect analogues at lowers levels, from what I hear.

There are also rules for creating environmental hazards, which is basically gated at dot level how severe you can make them.

[velvet sparrow]

I see

[queen heron]

existing hazard is much broader

the direct damage spells are like the least effective problem solving tools

like

this spell will end the fight often

against average humans? this sort of stuff can easily be lethal

most of what you can do with the 5 dot stuff can be done earlier

5 dots just cuts past all the noise

Shaping or matter scuplting at lower dots, straight up bringing forth objects from nothing at 5

Forces specifically is weirdly bounded in 2e though

it's treated much more "realistically" than the other Arcana

Matter can turn a handgun into a car based only on size, Forces has a pretty restrictive chart

[velvet sparrow]

Er, of note: I'm playing Ascension 20th

[queen heron]

ya

I was just talking about the 'anti-cheese' stuff

its still cheesed

I have no idea how Ascension spellcasting works lol

I heard you need Prime for everything?

and ou gotta hash out paradigm for every spell effect?

[velvet sparrow]

No to the first (maybe), Kinda yeah to the second

[clear delta]

Well, you're the one with th actual experience. Unfortunate the rules aren't effective enough
I guess you could extend the damage restriction to those spells and make someone subject to control gravity just get winded from the fall, even if it should be lethal

[queen heron]

I think my take on it has swapped over the years

like originally I was very "oh it needs to be balanced"

now I'm more focused on what the use of this stuff is in the chronicle

[queen heron]

like I wouldn't do this for the same reason I'd let Control Fire at 2 still do huge amounts of lethal damage in the right circumstance

tbh

CofD's combat system already breaks a little bit under the supernaturals

its designed for fairly lethal, pretty quick and brutal fights

you start getting 12+ dicepools or regen and it wobbles

its like spells to go faster

at a certain point I don't actually care about adding and multiplying speed to see how many meters you move - I'll just say "ok, you move as fast as a car / faster than eyesight"

same for combat-winners

Funny enough, my first mage actually loved using the direct damage spells

took a unique minor attainment to add Forces dots to athletic thrown spells, did Aggravated damage Dark Souls Thunderbolts whenever she got pissed (often)

sure the gravity might insta win the fight

but characters don't think in terms of pure spell effectiveness

she Throws Lightning at people

thats her gimmick

the imagos she reaches for involve that

[lament river]

Is this the new Mage?

[queen heron]

ya

basically the types of Mage I play, and the people I play with, tend to use spells for personal character expression

instead of gaming the system, or whiteroom problem solving

I still hew to the books balancing, but with clever enough players theres always gonna be some bullshit that can be pulled off

[lament river]

Could I get away with a group of Vampires (or possibly Hunters) putting up with some bizarre Junji Ito horror level BS?

[velvet sparrow]

Yes

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah

That's almost expected imo

[lament river]

Just what I want to hear. Glad to know that there's still plenty of unexplainable things in the WoD.

I'm also sure that Sam Raimi level splatter gore is a given too.

[mighty zephyr]

100%

[mighty zephyr]

When you find a poem that your antagonist can recite that is both era-appropriate and menacing when recontexualized >:D

[midnight grotto]

I can't point to specific examples off the top of my head but since 1E one of my favorite things to pull on vampires specifically is "sometimes there's Weird Shit that's as baffling to you as to humans"

in the Night Horrors books there were some fun out-of-reference problems like weird creatures that were like vampires but nothing like Kindred

[clear delta]

I think they meant owod hunter

But on the topic of cofd, there are actual rules in the vanilla core book for just making whatever critter

[midnight grotto]

Ah, I have no frame of reference for how weird that gets

[clear delta]

Cofd is just filled with random weirdness, like the fly guy, the men in black, the black eyed children

[midnight grotto]

There's a lot of splatless stuff

[mighty zephyr]

The best thing you can do with a splat is to throw in the Actual Devil

[clear delta]

Seeing the demons from demon the descent (they're creations of an artificial god) meet actual demons

[rare swallow]

https://youtu.be/1E9PHvguM3s?si=Gfn4Nh9ZfBXO-M4I

Whenever that's asked I think about this video

The context is he fell in a hole in the backrooms of a 99p store

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah that's not even supernatural

That's just canonicslly what happens when you work retail for more than 10 years

[rare swallow]

Lmao

But yeah, WoD is a horror setting, put some spooky shit in it

[clear delta]

Mystery is good for horror

[rare swallow]

Yeh

[mighty zephyr]

Oh speaking of

  And sinking silently,
All silently, the little moon
  Drops down behind the sky.

There is no light in earth or heaven
  But the cold light of stars;
And the first watch of night is given
  To the red planet Mars. 

Is it the tender star of love?
  The star of love and dreams?
O no! from that blue tent above,
  A hero's armor gleams. 

And earnest thoughts within me rise,
  When I behold afar,
Suspended in the evening skies,
  The shield of that red star. 

O star of strength! I see thee stand
  And smile upon my pain;
Thou beckonest with thy mailèd hand,
  And I am strong again. 

Within my breast there is no light
  But the cold light of stars;
I give the first watch of the night
  To the red planet Mars. 

The star of the unconquered will,
  He rises in my breast,
Serene, and resolute, and still,
  And calm, and self-possessed. 

And thou, too, whosoe'er thou art,
  That readest this brief psalm,
As one by one thy hopes depart,
  Be resolute and calm. 

O fear not in a world like this,
  And thou shalt know erelong,
Know how sublime a thing it is
  To suffer and be strong.```

I'm gonna have my Martian angel recite at least part of this

[rare swallow]

Cool

[mighty zephyr]

It actually fits absurdly well

As the Martian Claimed of the pack is actually the least possessed and is instead a gunslinger who just signed up for the thrill of it.

He's still almost completely in control of his faculties

I do gotta Stat each of the Claimed tho

Or at least come up with bans and banes

And Influences

[rare swallow]

I'm not sure I'm understanding most of this, probably not familiar with the splat?

[mighty zephyr]

Werewolf the Forsaken

[rare swallow]

Oh yeah I know very little about Werewolf and even less about CofD ^^;

[mighty zephyr]

A spirit of the light reflected off Mars has landed with several other planetary "angels"

And is trying to summon a leviathan from space the size of Rhode island to crash into the world

[rare swallow]

O h

[mighty zephyr]

So to that end each one of them possessed a different human being

[rare swallow]

I see

[mighty zephyr]

And when a spirit possesses a person for long enough they become "Claimed"

Which is basically a complete amalgate being

[rare swallow]

And you play as those?

[mighty zephyr]

Nah

[rare swallow]

Or they're antaginists

[mighty zephyr]

These are the bad guys

[rare swallow]

Right

That makes sense lol

[mighty zephyr]

The protagonists are werewolves

[rare swallow]

Yeah them reciting a passage of that poem would be appropriately dramatic

[lament river]

Ooo, a setting where vampire are trapped in a small village with dwindling humans and need to solve a Junji Ito style mystery and deal with their gnawing hunger.

I like the idea that them being vampires is maybe the only edge they have in surviving.

[clear delta]

Werewolves in forsaken have to stamp out any fuckery messing up the balance of spirit and flesh or the spiritual ecosystem. A human merging with a spirit is generally disliked by them. Separating a claimed won't return the person to normal, they'll have after effects for the rest of their luves, and many perish. Dunno how affected are the minds of those who remain in control.

Oh, here is the anomalous fusion of fox spirit and human, different from regular claimed.
https://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/werewolf-the-forsaken/1415558-2e-update-siten-uzu-the-fox-chosen

[rare swallow]

Gotcha

Yeah I know very little about Werewolf in general ^^;
I feel like every time I've seen someone talk about it before was about how problematic it is sometimes

[clear delta]

That was mostly old werewolf

[mighty zephyr]

Yeah it's mostly Apocalypse

[clear delta]

New werewolf had stuff in 1e about the ghost miscarriage

[mighty zephyr]

And like a few bits of Forsaken 1e

[clear delta]

And maybe the wolf blooded?

Anyway, here's a nice bit of horror and strangeness of the foxes
Tw: mention of gore and rotting corpses, s**cide

||Sometimes they form snarled little conspiracies of competing tricksters that cause havoc until one red dawn when something massive moves through the dreaming minds of the local human population and then the Siten Uzu in the area are all gone—all of them, not just these greater ones—but for a few slimy loops of intestinal viscera and a lingering sense of something beautiful and wondrous. Sometimes they gather troupes of lesser Siten Uzu and raise up little cults, coaxing fox spirits into pacts with wide-eyed humans, until they have enough to seek out the levers of local human power and live in decadent luxury. Sometimes they bury themselves together, beneath the fields, in a suicide pact, and as their rotting flesh turns to dirt, bounteous yet unsettling crops grow from that earth; rice grains that glisten and sometimes twitch like maggots, or apples fat and juicy yet almost coppery in taste. In time, one fox spirit forms in the soul of a human who has eaten of that strange bounty, possessing the combined might of all the spirits who merged with the earth.||

Back to old werewolf, there was I think cultural appropriation and stereotypes? Uh, reproduction with animals.
They had wendigo as a tribe spirit. Werewolf with werewolf reproduction produced something could be a Greek name, but is more likely to be a slur.

[rare swallow]

I feel like the mentions of ||suicide pacts|| and such would probably warrant a CW/spoiler

[mighty zephyr]

Every tribe was a racial stereotype.

[clear delta]

A moment to fix it

[rare swallow]

And also the woman only tribe was transphobic iirc?

[mighty zephyr]

Ya

[rare swallow]

And another is a bit too much Nazi adjacent for people's comforts

There are other complaints about problematic stuff I've heard

[mighty zephyr]

They were TERFs

[rare swallow]

Yeah

[clear delta]

Heard complaints about the freak legions book

[mighty zephyr]

I've heard complaints about literally every WtA book

[rare swallow]

Even W5 has some yikes

Didn't they copy the likeness of a Maori activist in the art of the book

[mighty zephyr]

W5's yikes are mostly in the production tbh

The actual text is pretty inoffensive.

[clear delta]

Also, phil brucato was a writer right? He for some reason was hired for new world of darkness changing breeds, even though werewolf already had two books about alternate shifters. His book was, from everyone who wrote about it, racist, uncomfortably horny, mechanically bad

[rare swallow]

Ooof

[mighty zephyr]

Uhhhh

[lament river]

Eww...

[mighty zephyr]

No.

[lament river]

Why do some writer's bring their hangups with them?

[mighty zephyr]

If you mean for W5

He did not work on that book

[clear delta]

No I meant, was Brucato involved in old werewolf books?

[mighty zephyr]

Oh, prolly

[lament river]

Still that's pretty yeesh.

[clear delta]

Yup he wrote for old werewolf

[rare swallow]

Yeah all I have to say is yikes

[lament river]

I'm still reading through V5 and there's a distinct lack of yikes, at least from my perspective.

[mighty zephyr]

Core V5 doesn't really have anything especially bad

It's just weird and boring imo

[lament river]

Considering they've pulled back some of the wilder stuff, I can see that.

How Nosferatu can kinda get around with mortals.

[rare swallow]

Tbh the Nosferatu thing is dependent on Storyteller interpretation
Seen some that put Nosferatu as walking masquerade breaches and others that don't

[velvet sparrow]

Nosferatu should not be Masquerade breaches, imo

[rare swallow]

Yeah

It ends up encouraging a player to be way too recluse and not participating in much thanks to that

I always feel like the general population would see Nosferatu at a glance as extreme body modders

[mighty zephyr]

Or just a fuck ugly dude

[velvet sparrow]

^

[rare swallow]

Like you're not a masquerade breach but standing out so much can be a detriment

[mighty zephyr]

You'd get harassed by an influencer wanting yo give you 100 dollars for a tiktok

[clear delta]

The videogame has a guy give you money upon seeing your condition. Anothe recommends a shelter? Otherwise you're a masquerade violation and need to use the sewers to move around

[lament river]

Wow, I can see that happening in a session.

[velvet sparrow]

Bloodlines has it where random people freak out and give a Masquerade violation, but anybody who you actually have to talk to (quest givers, shops, etc) just go "Damn, you're an ugly motherfucker. Tell me what you want and leave already.", yeah.

[rare swallow]

Yeah but videogames and ttrpgs aren't really super analogous to each other. I feel like applying videogame logic and mechanics can usually backfire

[clear delta]

I'm just using example

[rare swallow]

Fair enough

[clear delta]

The game had to replace the tremere weakness and made you disconnected from the pyramid

[lament river]

Just read up on the Tremere and I kind of like the V5 version a bit more where on the whole they want to get back into the Cam but many have become free agents.
Feels like in general they shook things up to where different bloodlines can plausibly go wherever and chronicles don't necessarily have to deal with the larger political stuff.

[queen heron]

hes rank 10 in CofD, right?

or was it 9

I heard the top gribbly in the Inferno was Literally Satan

[mighty zephyr]

There's quite literally

close to a dozen Actual Satans

[queen heron]

well

the most satan, I guess

Rank 10 “The Adversary”

[mighty zephyr]

AGAIN

There's so many Possible Satans

[queen heron]

not to say a rank 2 supernal isnt also Literally Satan

but I meant biggest satan-like guy, the one probably most wrapped around christian myth

Old Scratch would make a great True Fae

Related, glad CofD doesnt lean into abrahamic canonicity as much as the WoD

[mighty zephyr]

It does kinda but ONLY for Vampire

[queen heron]

cofd? Only if you believe the Longinus guys

Its portrayed much more apocryphal

Id say the Empyrean was also a little but thats strictly a 1e-ism nowadays

and also only theoretical

Meanwhile WoDs vampire curse was at least caused by an angel, and a caine / lillith of some sort was about

plus the whole demon thing

[queen heron]

hell, you cant even view or visit anything around christs life in the CofD

Its subject to a huge amount of Exarchal scrutiny - you’ll get blocked or ganked by The Father if you try (if nobody knows the truth, everybody has to work off blind faith)

[mighty zephyr]

Nah Requiem is, explcitly by author admission, written with the idea that something resembling the Abrhamic god is real and actively meddling in Vampires

[queen heron]

unexpected tbh

I dont think thats particularly in the book

less supported than Gaia is in werewolf

I’ll toss that into Dev-statements I don’t vibe with, along with “Strix as human spirits” and maybe “Theres no Principle the quasmallim are just deluded byproducts of pyros”

[hidden rock]

The God-Machine Did It

[mighty zephyr]

I think Vampire specifically works with the idea of an Abrahamic God

I just think it's cool to keep that contained there

[queen heron]

With Reqiuems splitting of the curse I like it better without

[velvet sparrow]

Isn't Chronicles specifically trying to avoid the sorta, every game line is it's own separate cosmology, though?

[queen heron]

sometimes Vampires just happen, theres a few things in common

[mighty zephyr]

No

[queen heron]

and the myths they make are the for the same reason humans do

[queen heron]

kinda

[mighty zephyr]

Chronicles is instead VERY MUCH "Every splat has it's own completely seperate cosmology"

[queen heron]

some cosmologies are more inclusive than others

Mage works broadly well with pretty much everything but maybe Mummy, and parts of geist and werewolf

(and only due to age / differences in spirits for the latter)

vamp works well everywhere

[hidden rock]

Most are reasonably inclusive tbh, since none of them pretend to know the Truth of All Things in the Universe

[queen heron]

because it doesnt touch much

well

[hidden rock]

Just the Truth of Their Own Thing

[mighty zephyr]

Mage is probably the most "inclusive" in a bad way

In that it can invalidate the importance of other cosmologies

[queen heron]

you definitely gotta buy in the Supernal as literally True

An in universe sin of mages!

the cool ones shoot up vitae with the vamps to learn what they’re on about

but yeah, theres a reason wizards have the term “Low Sorcery”

haughty bastards

[hidden rock]

Mages? Prideful? I would never!

[queen heron]

Changeling is hmmmm

I think it usually works well

but I dont like the dark eras being like

”yeah the Greek Gods are just faeries pretending”

[mighty zephyr]

Isn't it like

[queen heron]

strips the sublimality out of a real faith

[mighty zephyr]

The Greek Gods existed but a lot of the stories of Gods Doing Stuff was Fae?

[hidden rock]

Also, that move always felt very WoD-esque

[queen heron]

could be

[hidden rock]

Take something existing, and say "It was THEM all along!"

[mighty zephyr]

I mean they do that a lot in Dark Eras but it's more

"These things existed and a supernatural co-opted the plot"

[queen heron]

Theres a high rank spirit called the Thunderer, but its at a distance enough

[mighty zephyr]

Like Fenris-Ur was Actually Fenris

[queen heron]

its more a connection to thunder gods

[mighty zephyr]

Or at least inspired Fenris or Fenris existed and our modern name for him is now that because of how similar they were

[queen heron]

changeling zeus just is zeus

ish

or at least the religion is wrapped around a fae shaped like zeus

but I think Mage is inclusive because the Supernal really can accommodate p much everything

Spirit gods resound with supernal meaning

[hidden rock]

yeah, and pretend it's just mages being mages (read: dumb and arrogant) and don't understand what they're witnessing

[queen heron]

its like a language

the expressions of things in the world is the good stuff

but everyones using the same letters

Its less perpendicular, it mixes well usually

with the exceptions being how Time Travel works

even then Tome added more flexibility for demon style stuff

the trick with Mage crossovers is not to use the Supernal to undercut the supernatural, but elaborate on it

you’d stare at Blood Sorcery with wizard eyes and see how the Life and Death and whatever patterns flow

how the symbol for Blood expresses itself

its not that the blood magic is doing it “the wrong way”, its still blood magic thats how blood works

Characters believing this is a great character flaw though

[mighty zephyr]

god I wish I played in a good mage game

https://tenor.com/view/sinking-sinking-golf-cart-malcolm-in-the-middle-smiling-going-down-gif-10976512401242148510

[queen heron]

I had a friend who

it took like months to get him to change his mind on Mage

because his first experience with the system was some one shot

at like

Gnosis 4(?)

where the GM didn't explain anything

and just threw them at some building on fire

he was like "I had no idea what was happening and the other players kept aggressively talking over us and arguing with the gm"

its rough out there

[lament river]

Your poor friend, I can totally sympathize.

It's disheartening to be enthusiastic about trying out a new game, only for other players to barely let you interact, fight with the GM, and in some cases yell at you because you don't know the rules well enough.

[queen heron]

gnosis 4 for a system intro is wild too

choice paralysis, you dont throw someone into multi-Adepthood for system teaching

[mighty zephyr]

I spent 2 years in the most atrocious tabletop experience of my life

And this was in like 2016

It has been years

[clear delta]

No? Mages can poke the "source code" but the things in the Reality/Fallen World still exist. In fact, mages call anything that breaks their cosmology some shitty Lower Depth

[clear delta]

Thought each dev had a headcanon on the strix

[midnight grotto]

I want to throw an Orderless cabal that's also a mummy cult into my regional Assembly

Just for fun

And everyone thinks they're just weirdos until their Ancient Master shows up one day

[queen heron]

think the human spirits one is the vampire one

[patent talon]

That sounds like fun!

[velvet sparrow]

Huh, fun thing I just noticed

We've had a Daughter of Cacophony in both of our Vampire games, I think

As an NPC, in the background

[clear delta]

Singer characters are cool

[velvet sparrow]

Yeah

[rare swallow]

Those odd kindred from rarer bloodlines you come across from time to time are always

Must know them, must know all about what they're about

[velvet sparrow]

Kindred of PilotNET, I come asking for your assistance in a matter of importance.

[orchid void]

Yah?

[velvet sparrow]

I want to make a new character. Just in case something wild happens to Violet (I really hope it doesn't I'm quite fond of her), and the earlier I come up with it the more developed they are and that means the more fun they are to play and to play with

And would like to ask if anybody has character ideas they'd be willing to share.

I have a few things I'd like from them; We're new vampires, a few years old,

[rare swallow]

Currently my only character idea that's been floating around my head is a very basic concept

[velvet sparrow]

And I'd like to have some very... dramatic, relationships with humans who do not know about the Masquerade, but are still important to me and I have not cut ties with yet

Also, I think a playing a Ventrue would be neat

[orchid void]

okay i kind of just spitballed a stupid idea

Which is "Vampire Egirl with Ghoul Twitch Chat"

[clear delta]

For vamps.
Doctor vampire that secretly uses their abilities to help people and has to hold back their instincts. Temptation to do crimes for your patients, like someone suffering under an abuser, someone who needs money or an organ transplant.

[velvet sparrow]

We actually had a vampire egirl in our last campaign

[orchid void]

aaw

[velvet sparrow]

She was a Brujah Anarch in our Cam city

[orchid void]

Mine was making vampire snuff films on dark streaming but you know, that fits well

Hrmn, there's always "Dead Mafia Matriarch" which is one of my favorite go-to NPCs

[velvet sparrow]

Sorry what?

[orchid void]

The idea of a vampire with a gaggle of ghouls as her "devil's impulse" filming and showing her hunts off in a vouyeristic horror

Vampires are horror movies things, so I always build my pitches for them as "What's the horror movie starring this vampire"

[velvet sparrow]

I see

[orchid void]

So, for the idea of a "streamer", the idea of dark-web streams of a vampire doing her hunts/feeding, to an adoring crowd of enslaved ghouls

That seems Interesting enough to start building a character out of

Blood bonds are spooky and weird and make for nasty times

[rare swallow]

My concept is currently just a big ass nerd nosferatu that's very obsessive about occult knowledge, doesn't have much interest on shrecknet or the internet and wants to get access to blood magic somehow

[velvet sparrow]

Nice

[orchid void]

that is good shit,,,,

Hrmn hrmn hmrn but other good vamp ideas

You wanna do a Ventrue in the back pocket? Freshly turned in a famial lineage of vampires is always a good angle to take

[velvet sparrow]

Absolutely want to do a blood bond, but the streaming hunts feels a bit... Low Humanity, for what I'm aiming for

Also, we are in an Anarch city

[orchid void]

Aaah, okay, hrmnn

Ventrue Antitribu, what do I remember about them

...it ain't a lot but that might be somewhere to start

[clear delta]

Oh good, my idea works for a horror movie. The doctor losing herself to vampirism.

[velvet sparrow]

The idea I think I'd be aiming for would be very strongly principled

Almost Brujah-esque,

[orchid void]

Hrmn

Oh oh!

[mighty zephyr]

Oh hey Del

Did you see the poem I'm gonna have my Martian Spirit-Angel recite

[orchid void]

Embraced by the Last Sheriff, who at least survived the fall of the Cammies. Principled to the "greater good" of the vampiric society they end up in means now they've got a successor to do the same thing, despite whatever the Anarchs wanna do.

might be something here

[orchid void]

chunks, love the idea of doing poetry in the middle of stuff

[mighty zephyr]

Mars is gonna be the Johnny Ringo of this interplanetary outlaw gang

So our Uratha Gunslinger who's a deputy marshal is gonna get challenged to a duel under a thundering sky while getting poetry recited at him

[queen heron]

I like mafia vamps

some guy who did dirty work for organized crime, then got bit

now he does the same thing

only he's gonna be doing it for a long time

vampires got nothing but

[velvet sparrow]

Hmm...

Them being involved in organised crime doesn't really sing to me...

[orchid void]

fuuuck yes

[crystal fern]

one of my favourite concepts that I still haven't found a chronicle for is an art dealer/appraiser, who was turned in order for someone senior to preserve them as a contact; they probably have lots of relationships with artists, gallery owners, but also perhaps contacts with oligarchs and others who use art for money laundering purposes (this might be your in with the Ventrue)

or perhaps one of the local primogen just really loves art, or needs someone to verify the authenticity of collection pieces that are many centuries old and of dubious provenance since they've been circulating in "private collections" (i.e. vampire society). You don't have to be stereotypical and go for a Toreador here, other clans are just as valid

[midnight grotto]

yeaaah that's a good one

[lament river]

Haven't thought up Kindred myself just yet. How do people feel about Malkavian's?

[velvet sparrow]

Fine if you're not playing them for a laugh

[lament river]

The concept is interesting but they're such a mixed bag. I like the idea of how they perceive time and space but I'm not keen on the whole "lol I'm crazy," shtick.

[velvet sparrow]

If you play them right, I think they could be done quite interestingly

[lament river]

I think so too.

I like more the idea of Malkavian's having moments of presence.

[lament river]

Probably not the most original idea, but a Toreador who's an international spy.

[lament river]

It would be interesting to play a vampire who knows their wet work.

[lament river]

I forget how making very not sexy characters is a lot of fun. Making a vampire who was weirdly embraced in their late 50s and who did not age gracefully.

[queen heron]

I don't think I've ever played a sexy character

well

intentionally sexy

I've had players thirst after fucked up npcs but thats different

[lament river]

I just think it's fun to have a character who looks more on the schlubby side and is still a Kindred.

[spice abyss]

Like the Kindred accountant I had once.

[sour zephyr]

thinking about playing a tremere if i ever get to play vampire, cause blood magic is cool

[velvet sparrow]

Blood magic is cool

The pyramid, less so

[queen heron]

I liked them in Ars Magica

[velvet sparrow]

(From an in-character standpoint. Out of character I think the pyramid is actually rad)

[lament river]

Had a thought for a Malkavian street sweeper driver. Works very late nights, calls in to talk radio shows all the time, has a massive collection of fortune cookie fortunes at their haven and on their person.

Even one who's a 24/7 car mechanic and scrys by watching oil mix with puddles of water.

Zen and the art of motor repair... for vampires.

[little light]

What hunter factions don’t want to kill all the supernatural

From flipping through the main book it seems like the only two options are: 1.) Kill them all, or 2.) Exploit the shit out of magic

[clear delta]

From Vigil?

[little light]

Reckoning

[clear delta]

Oh, so they have organizations there too?

[little light]

Yeah

[clear delta]

Ah, all I knew was that they received powers and had special symbols and a website to communicate

Some ghost kept posting there, eventually sent a weird prophecy and got banned by angels

[little light]

Modern Hunter removes that mostly

You’re just people that know the supernatural exist

[lament river]

I sort of remember there were Hunter convictions where they wanted to make peace or redeem the monsters?

[clear delta]

Wow, they really made it similar to Vigil. Although vigil has organizations that aren't about wiping out or exploting monsters

[rare swallow]

I finished making my Vampire for that Ynys Mon game, kinda in love with them

[lament river]

Heck yeah! Mind if I ask what your character's like?

[rare swallow]

I went with the character concept of a nosferatu more interested in oldschool forms of information gathering and a somewhat unhealthy obsession with occult and supernatural things

[lament river]

Oh right! You mentioned how they're more nerdy, that's wonderful. 👍

[velvet sparrow]

Nice!!

[rare swallow]

Would anyone have any recommendations for artists that have commissions open currently? I'm really really tempted to get a portrait of this character.

[sour zephyr]

thinking of trying the LA by night vtm podcast, has anyone here listented to it?

[velvet sparrow]

It was alright

I haven't finished it, but that's not entirely a mark against it

[clear delta]

Anyone ever had a new Mage antagonist be high wisdom?

[lament river]

I know the feeling. I think in the #contact-archive you might find a few commission artists. I know they also frequent a lot of the larger rpg Discords.

[orchid void]

There’s also a pinned commission doc in #the-gallery

[rare swallow]

Thanks!

[crystal fern]

didn't know they had a podcast! is it just the audio from the shows or is it something separate?

[queen heron]

oh all the time

High Wisdom does not correlate to morality

its a good space for Seers

its a measure of your control over your magic, and how well you can take the consequences into account

[rare swallow]

They're all on YT, it's got a setup pretty much like Critical Roll

[queen heron]

if you've got a manipulator type who works at a distance, subverts and uses Sleeper institutions, lets other people do the dirty work in very focused attacks - an extreme professional

they can absolutely be high Wisdom

[rare swallow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFyQtOghqwA&list=PL7atuZxmT957CplbNHCN5JAGp9SoZhyUH&index=1

I personally like it, but refuse to engage in discussion because some people seem to viscerally hate one of the PCs

It gets toxic.

[clear delta]

Oh, I know, I wanted examples

[queen heron]

I've played more against this type than ran, so I don't know for sure the Wisdom stats
but in my Dark Eras pirate game we met a Hegemon of Havana who was poised, gracious, and afaik didn't cast a single spell while she was present

she acted through sleepwalker proxies and local governments

invited our Nameless Order cabal for drinks, before it turned into an extended social duel about politics

she was the status quo for the islands, she would quickly paint over brutality by sweeping her arm to the portside town, which was pretty idyllic when we visited

she didnt need the magic

[crystal fern]

oh yes, I've seen the whole thing, when you said podcast I thought you meant something different

[queen heron]

she didn't need to do any hubris

she was content with what was going on

[rare swallow]

Ooh, ok!

[queen heron]

I've also seen a PC Seer named Kingmaker who prefered to work within the Japanese government

had an extreme split between 'work' and home life, nearly killed another PC for bringing wizard stuff to his doorstep, or implying he'd go after Kingmaker's family

pretty high wisdom, absolutely did not let the magic lead the way for him

those are the two off the top of my head

[crystal fern]

I very much enjoy LA by Night, it's a little rough in some places but amazing in others, some great performances (Brennan is particularly chilling)

[lament river]

I'm trying to get into it, but I have an averseness to watching actual plays. I don't know why, because it all looks really fun.

[velvet sparrow]

I am also averse to watching Actual Plays, I don't really know why either

[lament river]

And yet I'm interested in the character moments between the players.

[rare swallow]

I tend to prefer it when I can do something menial in the background

I find listening to videos a good stim to concentrate on chores

[lament river]

Makes sense. It's hard for me just sit down and listen to one. I think I do better doing chores or working out while it's in the background.

[velvet sparrow]

My problem is, if I do something else while listening, I'm going to like, zone out and miss 6 minutes of it and not know what's going on

[lament river]

Lol, I too know that problem as well. I think it's one of those things where you just kind of half listen to it, but that's also hard for me. If there was like a written recap of each episode that would help a lot.

[little light]

Adrian ❤️

[lament river]

I feel like with Ventrue you can make a character that's more, "rules from the shadows," type. The kind of Ventrue who can have their will be done through many intermediaries to where no one knows who's actually in charge.

[lament river]

Character concept so I don't forget: Toreador Sommelier

[crystal fern]

speaking of LAbN I've not been able to get into NY by Night at all, I just bounced off the first few episodes. Has anyone seen more of it, and what do you think?

[rare swallow]

I didn't quite like the way they took it tbh, I also lost interest after a bit.

Changing coteries between seasons was just kinda... eh?

And I didn't like the characters quite as much

[lament river]

I like the idea of a Toreador who could tell you the vintage of a wine, what drink pairs well with each dish, and the year a batch of coffee beans were grown. A vampire foodie who can't really enjoy the fruits of his profession.

Plus from what understand, being a sommelier also kind of requires knowing how to BS.

[mighty zephyr]

"The Panoply of Empty Wars" Mars, possessing James “The Rose” Jackson 
"Binds The Mind To Break It" Mercury, claimed Willow Artbright
"Judge From Heaven" Saturn, claiming the horse Buckwheat 
"Lover Clad In Warrior Raimant" Venus, claiming Innocent Van Der Blyt 
"From High To Low" Uranus, claiming the decommissioned steam locomotive “Whistling Betsy”
"Sings Empty" Ceres, claimed Bobby Rennickk 
"Custodian Sancrosanct" Pallas, claimed the outlaw Dougie “Dirtface” Tinton ```

Here's my game's Rogue's Gallery

The Hellion Gang who, unbeknownst to the party, have amassed a small army of goons numbering over three dozen men

[mighty zephyr]

I do gotta fuck with like

What every spirit has Influence over

[supple quail]

buckwheat :)

[queen heron]

I had a history-based chart of planetary symbolism somewhere, from an ST vault thing

[clear delta]

What is each spirit like?

[mighty zephyr]

Oh I didn't see this until now I'm sorry

Herald is the leader of the bunch and is a stoic, unflappable dictator who sees his crusade to summon the Void Leviathan as a righteous act and will brook no dissention in this fact. Reno was a cantakerous old killer and their combined personality is now that of a quiet, driven tyrant-lord and bandit-king.

The Rose has most of his personality intact from the possession considering how willing he was, and thus James has little personality from Panoply. James is a gunslinger of vainglorious persona and preternatural skill. WITHOUT any supernatural existence, he could out-duel any gunslinger he came across. Now he's just along for the ride, his tests of skill now turning into a bloodthirstiness and twisted sense of "sport"

The rest I kinda need to work on more

Lover Clad in Warrior Raimant is obviously gonna be a femme fatale spin, High to Low is going to be a brute more focused on being a reason to have the party fight a giant train

Custodian and Sings Empty are smaller Claimed and are more goons for the rest, and much less committed to the cause as a result.

[mighty zephyr]

If I could peep that at some point I'd be greatly appreciative

Because Influences and Bans and Banes are something I struggle with

I don't know enough about Mercury and Saturn to really have them have a Thing yet

[clear delta]

Innocent?

[mighty zephyr]

Innocent is the name of the host

[mighty zephyr]

This also reminds me

I gotta come up with a couple new packs

[queen heron]

its based on historical astrology so its got the houses too

from https://www.storytellersvault.com/product/367997/Dark-Eras-Goal-of-the-Wise-Mage-The-Awakening?filters=0_0_45763_0_0_0_0

not mine, but the people who wrote this really know their stuff when it comes to historical magical stuff

so I trust their accuracy for the Vibes of the planets and what people thought of them

[mighty zephyr]

HRMMM

[queen heron]

sadly nothing past Saturn because they werent discovered yet rip

[mighty zephyr]

Ah well

[queen heron]

"Gardens" is a fun one for Venus

[mighty zephyr]

The only one I have is Uranus and two moons

[clear delta]

Venus has sacrifice. Interesting

[queen heron]

its also got a 2e update of the Thrice-Great

[mighty zephyr]

Thrice-Great?

[queen heron]

they were a 1e legacy of Spirit-Mages who communed with planetary spirits

they get brought up often because "wait do planet spirits work like the Thrice Great say or like how Werewolf says"

this rebuild turns them towards Resonance and the Astral more than the literal shadows of those planets

they're called the Thrice-Great because its related to Hermes Trismegistus, or they claim to be

its the CofD's Hermetics

[clear delta]

I think 2e references them being different this time around, as werewolf stablished?

[queen heron]

though I think they had another reason for it in the 1e books

heres their only mention in 2e's core

under "Obrimos-Founded Legacies"

[queen heron]

this one turns them into a Thyrsus-originated legacy with Prime ruling

though they keep the Planetary Spirit stuff

does what good Dark Eras do and flavors the cosmology through the setting

thats the good stuff

[supple quail]

i am ever a fan of THESUNTHESUNTHESUNTHESUNTHESUN

[clear delta]

Just a small reference. But other mages are worried about their dealings with the spirits of tge depths of space. Cool

[mighty zephyr]

Man I need to wake up a bit more before I go writing

This is sick though

I want the Spirits refer to them as "(x) of the (y) House"

[velvet sparrow]

I am the Y House

[queen heron]

but Y?

[mighty zephyr]

You know what Mage needed I think

As an antagonist

A Prometheus-expy (Not the splat ignore that exists for the moment)

Regular human being who learns that magic exists and finds a way to steal the divine fire of Awakening without actually Awakening

a sorcerer who is a Truth telling liar

[lament river]

Is a Kindred international spy for a government agency just way too on the nose?

[midnight grotto]

Not really

[clear delta]

I think some hunter group can steal magic?

Maybe those cannibals focused on mummies?

[patent talon]

The Promethean Brotherhood

They have a ritual that lets them steal magic temporarily, but want to find out how to do it permanently

[patent talon]

I do really like that idea! It'd present a moral quandary to the Awakened for sure, as long as the stealing isn't necessarily fatal (or maybe in spite of?). Is someone speaking the Truth, even if they are not Awakened, a net positive?

[queen heron]

I've seen someone homebrew people who Awoke to the Lie

and the Ziggurats

[heady kestrel]

These types of mfs are implied to exist in changeling at one point

[queen heron]

used the term Rakshasa

[queen heron]

tbh this is what Seers are

people who see the Truth, and use to to Lie

[heady kestrel]

Btw speaking of I just started reading mage

[queen heron]

or twist their path so they are the only ones benefiting

[heady kestrel]

Mastigos energy I think(because it’s vaguely explicit I guess)

[sour zephyr]

which one is mastigos again?

[heady kestrel]

Iron Tower, Pandemonium

+Mind/Space
-Forces

[queen heron]

Path of Scourging

all about the Self

[mighty zephyr]

These are very not descriptive

[clear delta]

Relationships abd perspective. Connections. Feelings. Flaws and turning them into strengths

[queen heron]

The Mastigos awakens to the understanding of what makes up people - their thoughts, their connections to the world, their true impulses

[heady kestrel]

Well “again” implies she already knows/read mage to some extent but just needs a poke into the correct type of wizard

[queen heron]

this applies to themselves too

they're transgressive and focused on the Will

being honest with yourself

the Demons of Pandemonium get in your face

They'll show you your sins, and then you can embrace them, or tear them out

they dont care which one

so long as you confront them

[clear delta]

Transgression and confrontation are the keywords of their approach

[queen heron]

theres no change without pain, but you can absolutely change

the path isnt about torture for its own sake

[clear delta]

Not only sins. All flaws and issues. Toxic relationships, trauma, mental illness

[queen heron]

its about rising above pain

I'd even throw in virtues

Pandemonium doesn't levy a moral judgement on any parts of you

it just wants you to see those parts

[clear delta]

True

[queen heron]

and then the path hands you the keys to change it

thats the core

its why they end up socially transgressive, because they tend to be fairly ego-driven

[clear delta]

Vice and virtue are both demons pulling you along. They're desires, thoughts, and how you approach them

[queen heron]

they dont do things "just because its what is done"

they do things they want to do

(in theory)

obviously Mages are still people, its not like every Mastigos fully combs over every bias and bit of their self they have

[queen heron]

like this book had a really fun Mastigos, who was a pious Muslim who became so curious about sin he deliberately broke his faith to see what the deal was

so he deliberately cultivates unclean resonance and sin to understand it, provokes people, wallows in filth

[queen heron]

oh and this connects to Space because Mastigos see connections as what influences you

theres a part of the book where it says "Distance is a Lie"
and that doesn't mean that miles are literally untrue

but it means the important part of space is connections

if someone dominates your thoughts, or holds your heart captive, it doesn't matter how far away they are

they're closer than a stranger in the same room

"wait so are Mastigos about embracing the temporary thoughts and impulses as your own anyway, or rising above them to reach a 'True Self?"
:)

Path Mystery!

[queen heron]

tldr the Wise understand both of these people as Mastigos

[heady kestrel]

Real

[orchid void]

Magistos are those who walk the Scouring Path to the Watchtower of Iron. They are about connections. All thoughts return to the same terminus of the collective unconcious. All points in space terminate to a single point. To look inward is to look outward. Theirs is a path strewn with Geotic Devils that present failure, weakness, indolence, things that hurt you and your concept of you. Because you have to shed it to know the Truth.

Yah?

[queen heron]

yeah, pretty punchy

though some don't shed the devils, but leash them

even the parts of You that you like are devils and chains

its painful either way

Their Mystery card is Temperance: the path of control and sign of the psychopomp who guides 
souls between worlds. Despite the initial victory of Awakening, suppressing the Goetia is a lifelong struggle, waged through raw determination, meditative calm, and occasional bribery — feeding your passions can calm them, for a time. ```

thats where the Scourging comes in

you can wrestle your desires to the ground, you can cut or untangle every unwanted connection, you can rise above any of your thoughts - even agony - if thats what you want

[spice abyss]

You can also just give in to them if you want too.

[queen heron]

as long as your honest!

one of the example Mastigos Awakenings a priest who loses faith

seeking even more obscure rituals and rites

until he's sent away on an "extended retreat", his faith still unreturned

[orchid void]

You can also plumb the depths of Tenemos, a psychonaut experiencing a thousand moments of not-self of other-self of other peoples' wants and needs and basal desires. You can go there, because there isn't any difference between "here" and "there"

Ya dig?

[queen heron]

when he confronts himself, he learns it was never really about faith, but his desire to control the flock, to command power

and he embraces that

[orchid void]

I did a whole like, mysterious interview with a magistos i wrote

i should finish the second one

but i have to go find The Files from a computer that exploded ; w;

[queen heron]

I think its up there for one of my favorite Paths

like they're all pretty good and also Acanthus but Mastigos is really fun to get in the head of

[orchid void]

oh yeah https://nightmareworks.itch.io/an-interview talk to my blorbo

[little light]

I think there is one that uses it to make tech better

And they are also bootleg ghost busters

[queen heron]

the vibes are impeccable

I love how the narration switches to more and more questions by the end

and then just dumps you back

surprise second Interviewer: yourself

[orchid void]

:3

Lucy is a proper Guardian

[velvet sparrow]

Guardian?

[little light]

Destiny 2 ref?

[mighty zephyr]

Guardians of the Veil

Basically like

Mage equivilent to the Alphabet organizations

[orchid void]

Mage spies for the mystery cult alliance of the Pentacle

[orchid void]

She is here to keep the Truth from the Unworthy, until the Heiromagus comes and renders her useless.

A sinner only forgiven by the savior, paving the way for a better world

That’s what being a Guardian is like :3

[queen heron]

I thought so!

nice

[mighty zephyr]

Basically the "Protagonist Faction" of Mage is the Pentacle, which is made up of a bunch of secret societies of mages who are allied against the Seers of the Throne, The Ultra-Capitalist-Fascists who represent literally everything bad about the world

[queen heron]

the question about "Justice" got me

[velvet sparrow]

I know very little about Awakening

[orchid void]

She’s in the “Good” Technocracy

[queen heron]

the Guardians are basically
the Mages who try to hold Mages accountable

[orchid void]

Doing nightmare cold war shit against the servants of the demiurge

[queen heron]

I'd say they're an apocalypse cult
but the entire Pentacle is

[mighty zephyr]

In both senses of the word "Apocalypse"!

[queen heron]

the Guardians are all about Murder

not killing, either

specifically Murder

part of their doctrine is that if you think someone should die, you absolutely kill them with no hesitation

they try to keep the 'unworthy' from accessing magic

[velvet sparrow]

And who is "unworthy"?

[queen heron]

running fake-cults and orgs that twist and push people off the path of real Supernal Insight, unless they can step back and see past the bullshit

honestly? depends on Guardian
but broadly they don't want people who abuse magic

[orchid void]

Sleepers, Seers

[queen heron]

either in the 'only wants power' way or in the 'will summon horrendous Untrue things into the world'

technically

and most dont know this

[orchid void]

Those who would be Hubristic

[queen heron]

they see like all Mages as unworthy

[mighty zephyr]

Murder is lame Battle is the only true way to live

This post made by Adamantine Arrow Gang

[velvet sparrow]

Who's the guys who just wanna help the little guys :(

[mighty zephyr]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Silver Ladder but in the tones of like

[mighty zephyr]

"We should help our lessers c:"

[queen heron]

sometimes admittedly

but the really cool Silver Ladder is like

"All pain is an insult to humanities divine birthright; Accept nothing less"

they only call it Hubris if you fail

[mighty zephyr]

None of the factions are really "good guys" because Cults generally are weird, esoteric, and morally questionable

[queen heron]

they want everyone to have the ability to seek the Truth

yeah the default Mage society is cult

[mighty zephyr]

This is true of the entirety of CofD

[queen heron]

they all picked symbols and got right in there

[orchid void]

But that’s what makes it FUN~

That’s occultism baybyyy

[orchid void]

EXISTENCE IS WAR

[mighty zephyr]

AND I AM IT'S GENERAL

[queen heron]

some Mage mythology is like "The Exarchs built a ladder to heaven, and tore it asunder in their hubris: breaking the world"
and the SL says "well the problem wasn't the ladder, its that the Exarchs are dicks"

often the Guardians get the short end of the stick but they are the Mages who probably do the least paradox

[clear delta]

Also, Guardians are big into reincarnation and karma

[queen heron]

and go after the dudes harming sleepers the most, probably

[mighty zephyr]

I'm still so fucking mad I never got to fight a Seer as Perses

[queen heron]

they also tend to be the first Order most mages meet, and send new wizards to other places

[mighty zephyr]

I wanted to have a fucking Mob Psycho Forces fight

I mean I'm mad about a lot of shit in that game

but y'know

[queen heron]

because the Labyrinths are supposed to be turn the least worthy away, not everyone

[clear delta]

They commit the "necessary sins". To help other mages stay on the right path abd perfect their souls over reincarnations

[mighty zephyr]

https://tenor.com/view/mob-vs-koyama-mob-psycho-renatomob-shigeo-anime-gif-16060983

[clear delta]

Uh, maybe free council?

[orchid void]

Free Council also has techbros in it

The TELEX Fund

[clear delta]

They're a bunch of lesser orders that like democracy

[queen heron]

they see human culture broadly as capable of changing the Supernal

[orchid void]

Everyone has weird bad scary parts, just work with it :3

[mighty zephyr]

Free Council is the only place you're seeing Wizard Crypto

[queen heron]

they're a little jank because 1e wanted them to be the "tech wizards"

and 2e has them as "they really hard about Sleeper Culture"

[clear delta]

When the seers invited them to join in, they went apeshit and started a war.

They killed a lot of seers and weakened them

[velvet sparrow]

A war against the seers, right?

[clear delta]

The diamond joined in

[clear delta]

Yes

[velvet sparrow]

I actually know who the Seers are, but like, nobody else

[queen heron]

the FC is the biggest, and least unified of the Pentacle

its actually a bunch of teeny cults banded together

[clear delta]

The non diamond orders are called nameless. The fc is a bunch of nameless orders together

Their creed is "humanity is magical"

[queen heron]

Humans, even Sleepers, working together reshape and pull on Supernal Truth

[orchid void]

The Free Council of Assemblies had a war/insurgency against the Seers in which the FC rejected the Seer's call to create the Technocracy.

And that's why one of their core tenants is Destroy the followers of the Lie

[clear delta]

The silver ladder, meanwhile, says "magic is humanity's bithright"

[lament river]

Thinking of a Tremere reclusive "day trader," who's ordered to get out of his study and work with other Kindred

[velvet sparrow]

WoD Tremere?

[mighty zephyr]

Hot Take the Free Council is milquetoast

[lament river]

Yeah V5 WoD Tremere

I like sometimes to play characters who might be anti social or awkward, but are improved by being part of a community

[orchid void]

its too often used as a dumping ground for "Good Politics" instead of leaning into the wild and weird corners of modern occult theorm

and like "Reasonable Mages" instead of accepting that all the deeply unreasonable Mages have also seen The Truth

Its easy to use boringly

[mighty zephyr]

'twas my experience with it

[queen heron]

absolutely

Most GMs I see lean harder on the FC as the arm of local nameless orders explicitly

representatives for smaller groups in Mage politics

rather than an order based around Democracy alone

[mighty zephyr]

In my New York setting I actually had a Nameless order that was being courted by the FC to join but was ultimately a 6th power player in the city

Since their whole thing was occult architechture and they LITERALLY had been there since New Amsterdam as an organization

[orchid void]

Yeaaaaah

That's the good shit

[mighty zephyr]

Where the Consilium in New York differs is the equal footing a regional Nameless Order has with the Pentacle and the Iron Pyramid. The Artifex Ferro, an Order that descends from the earliest days of the Roman Empire, was a power in New York ever since the days of New Amsterdam, and their connection to the city runs deep. Though allied with the Pentacle, and opposed, philosophically, to the Seers, they still deal with the Iron Pyramid on occasion in mundane business deals. Though the Pentacle watches these transactions as thoroughly as possible, to ensure a lack of foul play.

I wrote these guys years ago for a setting that never really got used

[heady kestrel]

the silver ladder feel like the type of guys to create memes making fun of the othr factions

[orchid void]

Whyfor? The Awakened Are One Nation

:3c

[midnight grotto]

FC are the default memers

[queen heron]

the SL and FC mostly only antagonize each other in the US too

most places they are super close

[midnight grotto]

One of them wrote a bestselling YA fantasy series that was thinly veiled mage political propaganda

[queen heron]

which did cause some people to Awaken

[orchid void]

Which is so funny

The Guardians are So Mad

[queen heron]

its also funny because the main character is very much Silver Ladder lol

[mighty zephyr]

Changelings live in New York below the radar of most any other supernatural being, save perhaps Beasts and the odd Acanthus. Their Court is powerful, but Winter and Autumn have kept their hold on politics and policy for decades now. Secretive to an extreme, the Lost have long learned that the Huntsman will take advantage of any ally they can get their hands on, and New York is filled to the brim with the desperate, ambitious fool who doesn’t mind the enslavement of one stranger for the promise of a goblin army to command for seven days and seven nights. As such, they will survive as they always have, alone and frightened.

What splats do you think would sell a Changeling downriver in less than 30 seconds

[velvet sparrow]

Mages

[queen heron]

Vampires

[velvet sparrow]

Any of them, probably

[queen heron]

Werewolves maybe? how do they feel on crossing thresholds

[orchid void]

yeah mages or vampires

[queen heron]

Half the Mages would be diehard changeling supports

the other half would trade them for a ham sandwich

[orchid void]

Demons and Werewolf less so

[heady kestrel]

Does it count as cheating if I say “non sin eater bound”

[clear delta]

Okay, so.
Adamantine Arrow: all about conflict as their philosophy.
Mysterium: fusion of two older orders. Seek knowledge and old objects, then store them, containing the dangerous ones. Suffers from anti sleeper bias in a chunk of their members.

[velvet sparrow]

Becoming a supernatural doesn't remove your free will or agency or values

But yes, it's Mages

[queen heron]

I could see an SL member absolutely being like "yeah you were a human until you got Cosmically Brutalized L"

[velvet sparrow]

And I say that as a diehard Mage fangirl

[queen heron]

and then running a crusade on True Fae

[orchid void]

It doesn't, but it creates certain Material Conditions that prime you for "Sell that fool downriver"

[mighty zephyr]

I think the thing is that Werewolves would probably kill everyone involved first

[queen heron]

can I say Changelings

[mighty zephyr]

before siding with one or the other

[orchid void]

Vampire: Delicious Blood
Mage: Free Goblin Army

[queen heron]

I think Changelings would sell changelings downriver the most

:)

[mighty zephyr]

https://tenor.com/view/dudelsack-party-dance-victory-ybp-gif-7886322

yar harr

[clear delta]

And mysteries. Mages would love to make deals for those

[heady kestrel]

Nascent privateer city is such a scary antagonist 💀

When those fucks get organized it’s bad for everyone

Because eventually they rip each other apart

[orchid void]

anyway i need to spin more mage shit in my skull

hope someone lets me play Lucy someday

I Am A Normal Person Who Can Be Trusted With Cold War Paranoia and Space 3/Mind 2/Death 1

[mighty zephyr]

OH HEY

Speaking of Werewolves

Guess what I'm doing that's really funny

[velvet sparrow]

Something to do with Werewolves?

[mighty zephyr]

I'm gonna have a guest star in my Werewolf game that plays the brother of one of the pack

And they're gonna be a ghost wolf!

[patent talon]

I wonder about a Mage that doesn't consider any of the monsters of the world "real". They have infinite respect and reverence for Supernal Beings but werewolves, vampires or changelings? Reflections of reflections, barely worth considering

[queen heron]

the Tremere

[heady kestrel]

Demons either literally couldn’t conceive of selling someone else out or would do it for a corn chip

There is no inbetween

[mighty zephyr]

Guess what happens!
When a Ghost Wolf eats the Essence of a spirit from the cold void of space!

[orchid void]

Oh Bad

[queen heron]

something interesting!

why should Luna get all the whale meals huh

[patent talon]

Aw damn you're right, lmao

[mighty zephyr]

You get infected with Space

[patent talon]

Uh Oh

No Wolf Totem to protect you?

[mighty zephyr]

Normally Werewolves do just fine

And by "normally" it's "Back when Luna made them"

But then the Gauntlet happened! And that broke the "Anti-Space Fuckery" mechanic

[queen heron]

in a less shitposty way its a common Mage hubris to dismiss Low Sorcery / other supernaturals as misguided, or missing the real truth

the Tremere dont even respect the Supernal

[mighty zephyr]

So now unless the Firstborn are protecting you, you get turned into a Loci-eating monstrosity that embodies the darkness of space

[queen heron]

Is the Gauntlet still around in Space?

like on the Moon is there a Gauntlet

[mighty zephyr]

Unclear

But the Idigam can't kill astronauts

And seemingly can't leave the Shadow

So if it's not the Gauntlet, then it might just literally be Luna's spiritual "gravity"

Which also

Holy shit

There's a writer's homebrew stuff on the "Spirit-Sky"

And one part of it is that it posits that Werewolves literally can't get to space in the Shadow because their Lunar-resonant souls will literally just be inexcorably drawn into Luna

not even conciously eaten

just you are Moonstuff and like attracts like on a gravitational scale and you are devoured without even any concious thought

[patent talon]

Ah ha! Vindication! But you're right about the Tremeres, maybe respect for the Supernal would be good add if I ever revise Redeemed Tremere

[patent talon]

That's pretty gnarly. I wonder if a similar thing happens with Firstborn

Probably not as intense, as they aren't the original Wolf

But I could imagine a feeling of...gravity

[mighty zephyr]

That'd be really fucking interesting

You meet your god and it takes every preperation to not just be MECHANICALLY devoured into it's whole

[patent talon]

Firstborn desperately resisting eating you for your sweet, sweet essence

By Spirit ecology it'd just make sense for you to become part of them!

[mighty zephyr]

I like it more when it's not like

"Saturn devouring his son"

And more like "an asteroid falls to earth and burns up in reentry"

[patent talon]

Ah yeah, I getcha, that is very cool

The god doesn't even know they're doing it

[queen heron]

its like how plant spirits constantly eat spirits of light and dirt

[mighty zephyr]

I love you Forsaken Cosmic Horror

[queen heron]

Luna's not even trying to do it, he's just that big of a spirit

[mighty zephyr]

I love how the Solar System is an ecosystem with 10 guys in it

who all want to kill and each other

[patent talon]

I do find Helios interesting conceptually, a spirit who's literally presence pushes everything to earth and has Never Changed Their Mind Ever

I wonder if he wants to eat Luna

I think Mage, Hunter and Werewolf are the three lines I want to play most

They gotta lotta stuff I really, really like

[clear delta]

Does the infinite macabre talk about gauntlet in space? I know it mentions avernian gates to shortcut distances through the underworld

[queen heron]

unsure if this is from the book, but someone I knows in a sci-fi CofD game

[mighty zephyr]

The only Sci-Fi CofD writing I know of is an alt-setting of Vampire

[queen heron]

where their shadow-transit was Warhammer Gauntlet Generators

[mighty zephyr]

where Vampires took over Earth and founded an interplanetary Empire

[queen heron]

they just dipped into the Deep Shadow and pray the Gauntlet holds

[solemn helm]

7.8/10 not enough zorpalods

[supple quail]

doesn't that make them think they themselves are unworthy

also what happens if a mage is turned into a vamp? is that just a tremere? does anything happen to their soul?

[orchid void]

Yeah! They do. Self loathing is easier to deal with when you can pluck it out of your soul and stuff it in a box

[clear delta]

No template stacking

[velvet sparrow]

If a Mage gets turned into a Vampire, they are no longer a Mage

[orchid void]

Yeah, the soul gutters out

[velvet sparrow]

They lose the ability to do magic it's very sad :(

[orchid void]

Now they might find blood magic easier tho

Maybe turn into some kinda fucked up Reaper Legacy

[velvet sparrow]

(They can do Vampire magical abilities just fine, but those are worse than Mage magic, imo)

[clear delta]

Isn't that old mage?

[velvet sparrow]

It's both mages?

[orchid void]

Yeah both

[clear delta]

Guardians are mega unworthy. They believe in necessary sins, so they commit them in others' stead. So they won't get their souls too stained.
Guardians believe that when the messiah of their beliefs, the hieromagus comes, they shall be judged for their sins

[clear delta]

Huh. Thought the embrace just didn't take

In new mage

[orchid void]

Sometimes yeah

Sometimes the spark does put

[velvet sparrow]

Tbf, isn't the embrace just kinda fucky in general, in both editions?

[orchid void]

Whatever works best, as all things in chronicles

[velvet sparrow]

Intentionally so, to allow the ST to decide whatever makes the best story

[supple quail]

ah, my favourite, wriggle room

[mighty zephyr]

Imagine how scared you'd be realizing "The Blood is stronger than the Truth"

[orchid void]

The Beast, is bigger than the truth.

[keen bluff]

quick question regarding Vampire games; am I right that it’s uncommon for players to be newly embraced? If so, how do you, like… kinda onboard new people to how Kindred society works?

(also brb gotta eat lmao)

[rare swallow]

Hmmm, I don't think it's as uncommon, my first VtM game ever was a game with all new embraces.

We were all new to the system and lore

Except for the storyteller and 1 player

And even then the way that 1 player went with being a new embrace, but knowledgeable by that they were previously a ghoul that earned it through years of service

(my grammar is failing sorry)

[mighty zephyr]

I think it's uncommon for players to NOT be like

a vampire for longer than a handful of years at most

[lament river]

That's good. I'm thinking it takes awhile to get fully acclimated to the uh... unlife

[rare swallow]

I feel like it's usually more fun to play characters that still have much to achieve in comparison to characters that have already achieved much

[queen heron]

you got it in one!

absolutely

the Guardians think Sins for a just end grant Wisdom

but they will never say they are not Sins

ritual loathing, theirs and the communities

is literally magical praxis for them

they exist to be Hated, Vile, Sinful

Hard Men Making Hard Choices

[supple quail]

yepppp

[queen heron]

in their esoteric tenets

[supple quail]

it does not seem the healthiest

[queen heron]

they literally think the proof of the Hieromagus is that they will destroy the Guardians utterly

the Guardians think a better world is one where they are not needed

everyone else kinda wants to stick around when they acomplish their goals

[supple quail]

gotta love a death cult

[queen heron]

Messianic death cult, even

though tbh I think the hieromagus stuff gets too much focus in the corebook

more than the other orders, the guardians get the wild stuff presented first

so it seems more foundational

[orchid void]

It’s so you can play someone in deep, I feel

[queen heron]

fair

leads to a lot of people asking "wait why does the Pentacle even tolerate these guys"

[orchid void]

They were doing that in 1e that didn’t much mention it so idk

[queen heron]

when the guardians are the order most likely to clean house

[orchid void]

Very few scelesti. Plenty of Left Hands

Like playing a scorpion :3

[sour zephyr]

thinking of trying vtm bloodlines again soon, what mods would ya'll recommend for a first playthrough?

[mighty zephyr]

The fix

There's like an unofficial bugfix mod that makes it playable

make sure you got that

[queen heron]

the common one is "treated as a pawn by a local power player"

able to do things that more entrenched vampires won't do themselves, not a large investment

doubly works if they can spin your success or failure to their benefit

"We've got a big meeting coming up at Elysium, ensure it goes smoothly" or something

[little light]

Disposable thinblood coteries mass produced to fight the Sabbat is an idea I would love to toy around with

[crystal fern]

"go fight the shovelheads, who are monstrous wastes of life and proof the sabbat are evil, no we are not hypocrites we totally intend for you to survive the night"

re: onboarding new players whose characters aren't newly embraced, I often go with the "As you know..." style of exposition when things become relevant, and assume a baseline level of competence for the PCs. It can be tricky but IME most players internalise information much more effectively when they encounter it in a relevant context anyway

[harsh salmon]

i love this idea but i feel like they'd kill whoever thought of it. The sabbat are an immeadiete threat but i think those thin bloods who just got a shot at the big leagues through diablerie are gonna be a bit mad about being considered disposable

Like. The thin blood arenr trust worthy enough to risk something like that

[crystal fern]

also "how do I quickly onboard players into a world of high-stakes politics that their characters would be more familiar with" is a currently relevant topic to me ahem

in an ideal world you structure their introduction to the game world in such a way as they encounter important bits at a time, so they don't get overwhelmed. Like a lore tutorial built across the first few sessions

(Elysium is amazing for this, especially if you give the PCs a "helpful" NPC who can give them enough of a low down that they don't immediately make fatal faux pas)

[harsh salmon]

how recently embraced do you think you can get away with though?

[crystal fern]

oh you could have a whole party full of newly embraced fledgelings if you wanted to, I don't think anything's stopping you other than trying to figure out what political situation would mean the Prince is granting the right of progeny to a bunch of kindred all at once

[harsh salmon]

"We are under fucking attack!"

[crystal fern]

I've even heard of parties where they all started as mortals and the first session was playing out their embrace

[harsh salmon]

Im not as familiar with the world of darkness as id likr to be so ive been wondering; do the anarchs restrict the embrace?

[crystal fern]

in practice for sure, some Barons are not all that different from Princes at the end of the day

(some are probably more lax than others)

[harsh salmon]

oh yeah like me reading that rule book was absolutely "So you rebelled against this oppressive sect force by building your own oppressive sect force"

[crystal fern]

the politicking, favour trading, and need to maintain the masquerade are major factors baked deep into the heart of kindred society that are hard to escape