Warhammer and Such

[desert jay]

And... is Pantheon of Woe going to be the detachment for Oops All Ctan lists?

[paper bluff]

I do think that new name destroyer kicks ass

[floral herald]

Such a good model

[desert jay]

It really is

GW knocking it out of the park with recent character models unless they're in gold armor

[paper bluff]

I do hope for a Trazyn model and rules refresh

[dense idol]

i really like the model of the destroyer lord

but nekrosor ammentar is shaping up to be a complete non-character, who only exists to get blown up by Titus's Master-Crafted Power Toilet Brush of Macragge or whatever

[desert jay]

I still think he'll be slotted into the same deal Vastorr has, where he has a big narrative event and then gets slotted into looming around menacingly in the background

[viral crest]

Hullo thread. I have a question relating to the tabletop

How's the Mechanicus?

[floral herald]

In terms of balance or what?

They’re very strong atm and are in a better state than they have been for a couple of editions

[viral crest]

Balance, what they do, how they feel to play

Oh nice

[floral herald]

They are and always have been a weird finicky army to play

[viral crest]

Yeah that was my understanding of them

[dense idol]

if you care at all about the provenance of your plastic, they're also absurdly expensive for their point values

[floral herald]

They’re mostly a shooting army from the midrange with a bunch of weird buff management

[dense idol]

or at least that's been their running gag all edition

[floral herald]

This isn’t as bad as it has been since they got a lot of stuff buffed and increased in cost but they used to be the worst faction in the game for it haha

[desert jay]

They're still high in the rankings, though, because they weren't exactly cheap in 9e either

[floral herald]

Yeah

They’ll probably get nerfed some soon but don’t make army choices based off of the meta

[tired cairn]

Is that after the recent dataslate?

[floral herald]

Yeah

[tired cairn]

wow

[raven meteor]

Imperial agents being 0.0 is deeply amusing

[floral herald]

This is up to NuCalgar+Victrix

[tired cairn]

Imperial agents are a fake army

[floral herald]

Yeah no one’s bringing them to tournaments now

People rarely were

[viral crest]

I'm choosing then because I really like the Mechanicus I think they're cool so as long as they don't end up... unfun and useless I don't much mind

[raven meteor]

Oh I'm aware of the state of imperial agents in broad strokes
They Don't Exist

[rocky shale]

There's like 5 people in the US that run them in tournaments

So if they stay home, no win rate

[floral herald]

Yeah I guess they just haven’t been playing them lately haha

[viral crest]

What should I be trying to do, building/playing Mechanicus?

[tired cairn]

What do you like about them?

[floral herald]

I’m actually not super familiar with what their army building looks like haha

[viral crest]

Mechanically or?

Skitarii are neat, and I enjoy the big high tech shooty stuff they have

[tired cairn]

For awhile it was Way Too Many Skitarii

[raven meteor]

What I've heard about Mechanicus is that you have to manage lots of auras and stuff to make them the competitive army they are at the top level

[rocky shale]

Skitarii and cawl are pretty much mandatory I think

[viral crest]

I just really like their vibe though

[viral crest]

Aw dang I kinda don't like the named characters

[desert jay]

They're less aura-y than they were in 9e but there's still a lot of management

[floral herald]

Cawl is ultra-mega-mandatory for mechanicus right now unfortunately

[desert jay]

If it helps, AdMech have exactly one named guy and not 20

[viral crest]

It does

[tired cairn]

The two best detachments are Hunter Cohort (all Skitarii) and Haloscreed Battle Clade (if you want other stuff)

[viral crest]

The other faction I'm interested is Marines

[rocky shale]

Cawl is basically a second army rule

[tired cairn]

Cawl is mandatory because he basically gives you another army rule 🙃

Oh hey, specifically he gives you the SM one lmao

[viral crest]

Also crons

[floral herald]

The nice thing about marines is they have insanely good model support and are never weak and have fairly diverse army building

[tired cairn]

The usual recommendation is to buy whatever models you think are the coolest visually

[raven meteor]

I will toss out the mandatory 'you don't have to build the meta stratagem if you're just trying to have fun with your pals' but I get wanting to do the army 'right'

[floral herald]

Yeah rules are ever shifting

[desert jay]

If you play competitive Space Marines then you are gonna have named dudes, at least one of them will have a good buff for your army archetype

[viral crest]

Lol

[floral herald]

And yeah building for tournaments is a different and much more intense thing than locals and friendlies

[tired cairn]

If you like the skitarii foot troops specifically, the goodish news is that currently they are needed to improve a bunch of other stuff so you won't go wrong picking them up

[raven meteor]

In my own starter army I deliberately left Morvenn Vahl off my Paragons because I'm fluffing them as Bloody Rose, not Argent Shroud

[desert jay]

People are also generally good natured about "this is my OC, named uh... Bellyachus Carl"

[viral crest]

Mostly my questions are:

I know they're like, a buff focused army so what do I need to be able to take those buffs, and are there any units that are bad and I should if not avoid know they're kinda bad going in so I don't get too disappointed

[junior summit]

For tournis the expectation is optimization

Its a competitive environment

[desert jay]

(You can also be much more creative than that about how you name your OC)

[viral crest]

This is for a 1000 points intro game for friends, and if everyone likes it we're going to do a Crusade

[floral herald]

https://listhammer.info/?faction=Adeptus+Mechanicus&wins=All

[desert jay]

If you plan on playing Crusade, "meta" is weirdly the opposite, no named chars or one essential one

[floral herald]

This is a good way to get a sense of what the army meta looks like

[desert jay]

Because named chars can't get Crusade buffs

[viral crest]

Ooohh that's good to know

[desert jay]

But "meta" for Crusade is weird in general, it's not a super competitive format

[rocky shale]

In admech I'd still be tempted to take cawl lmao

[desert jay]

Well that falls under "one essential one"

[rocky shale]

But for crusade you could get by without

[viral crest]

Anyways circling back to this because it took me a few tried to get the words right

[rocky shale]

In basically every army you're going to want some battleline troops to do random stuff, some fast units to be fast, some cheap stuff to be disposable on objectives, a way to kill tanks, and some heavy hitters

[tired cairn]

Though that was true only kind of recently. He was pretty bad for most of 10th until he learn to copy Space Marine oath culture lol

[rocky shale]

Admech buff synergies are mostly just "are there skitarii nearby? If yes then buff is better"

[rocky shale]

I know, but he's amazing now

[raven meteor]

So basically, you get to choose one of these to be active every battle round, so your units want to be in range of Skitarri to benefit from these at pretty much all times
Especially since other units often get other bonuses

[viral crest]

Thank you

[raven meteor]

Like the Kataphron also gets this in the same range

So if they're sitting still within 6 of a skitarii, they are hitting all their attacks on a 2+, and rerolling any 1s that happen to show up
AKA 'nearly certain to hit'

[viral crest]

Oh also Kastelans

I love Kastelans I think they're really cool and I want to use them

[raven meteor]

(Where did you get this, btw)

[floral herald]

https://www.stat-check.com/the-meta

It’s from here

Real nice stats breakdown

[rocky shale]

If you like kastelans you should probably run haloscreed detachment over the skitarii one

[raven meteor]

What I know of Kastelans is basically 'works if you attach a datasmith to them, not worth the points elsewise'

[tired cairn]

I like how the ability that gives Halo Override units stealth in that detachment is called "Muted Servomotors", implying they only thing stopping large robots from being stealthy is how loud they are

[viral crest]

Why so?

[jaunty dawn]

Its just the music theyre playing constantly

Its just a secret that only a few tech priests know to press mute

[viral crest]

Ah cause they can give it to their Kastelans

[jaunty dawn]

Kastelans in haloscreed get an enhancement

To always be in powered up mode

[rocky shale]

Here's an example 1k list that seems solid for crusade

[viral crest]

Well, this isn't for Crusade yet

[obsidian flume]

I am gonna play homonculus covens Druhkari

Not sure what other factions are gonna be in the crusade/test games

[rocky shale]

Well it's an example list for anything ultimately

[viral crest]

Want to do an intro game with at least a few of the people before starting it, so they can try some stuff out

[atomic apex]

I'm considering Tau or Necrons mainly for now

[viral crest]

I'm still indecisive ;y;

Necrons or Marines or Grey Knights or AdMech

[obsidian flume]

I am gonna say this out loud to double check that this is the correct way to build them

One relatively stacked homonculus with a bunch of wracks backing him up

A solid core of Talos and Cronos

Some more wracks

Mandrake jumpscare

[tired cairn]

The Hunter Cohort detachment is focused on Skitarii units only and doesn't benefit non-skitarii units. Haloscreed is generic and can apply to its benefit to basically any unit (plus it has the aforemention enhancement)

[rocky shale]

For that list you have cawl and two skitarii squads as a core, then a dunecrawler for a long range anti tank that also provides a defensive aura to the skitarii, then kastelans with a datasmith as a brick, ruststalkers as a fast melee blender, and the pteraxxi and dragoon as mobile harassers

[rocky shale]

Make sure you include transports

[obsidian flume]

Oh?

I didn’t think transports would be that pressing

[rocky shale]

Drukhari are too fragile to not use them

[floral herald]

Raiders are pretty much mandatory for every unit which can fit in one for Drukhari

Or venoms for stuff which fits in those

[rocky shale]

Also the covens detachment is kinda janky and battleshock heavy so you need all the help it can get

Something like this maybe

Split kabs with the venom, all the normal guys go sticky home, all the special weapons go be a gunboat

If your local meta doesn't have a lot of monsters you could run haywire instead of heat lance on the talos

Raiders with wracks in them also get like 10+ melee attacks it's hilarious

[obsidian flume]

Interesting

[rocky shale]

I think the main weaknesses for covens is that they don't have great ways to kill monsters and vehicles and the rely a lot on battle shock, which is a super hit ir miss rule

Wracks are strangely tanky in the detachment though so that's a thing

[obsidian flume]

Yeah a big reason I didn’t think to take raiders was “I think I might just be able to take the hit”

[rocky shale]

Pretty terrible saves but with an enhancement you get them to T5, -1 to wound if strength>toughness

They're tough for elves but not that tough

The 5+/6++ saves mean anything that wounds is gonna shred them

And you also only need 1AP to put them on invulns

You also don't have an advance +shoot/charge strat so they aren't super fast for a melee heavy unit

Plus, raiders are amazing

[vital barn]

the thing about Cawl is that he's the Archmagos, there's no generic Archmagos, so you just build your own fun gribbly archmagos model and stick it on his base

in Horus Heresy there's actually the opposite thing going on, there are a few archmagos models including two named and two unnamed ones, but no generic Magi models at all

despite the fact that every decent list has 1-3 magi in it

so everyone converts those too

[paper bluff]

We curse GW with the mechanicus =/= admech units

[wide veldt]

HOLY SHIT the boss of act 3 in rogue trader is absurd

Absolute fucking crazypills

[rocky shale]

I think I just obliterated him with a dark lance lol

[tired cairn]

(as an FYI, there is a #1182019271237308527 channel)

[wide veldt]

Oh sorry!

[tired cairn]

Not a problem at all. Just wanted to make sure you were aware of it

[sour sequoia]

Fellas

Now taking submissions for the best possible nightbringer bases corpses

[junior summit]

I mean the invictus warsuits are stealth capable

[rocky shale]

Every ultramarines named character in a huge pile

Alternatively, just Titus

[junior summit]

the nightbringer buried up to the waist in dead orks

[sour sequoia]

I had one thought of every phoenix lord before it turned out to be $300 of basing

God whats the numbers on UM characters

[rocky shale]

Probably more than $300

You could to two different Calgar sculpts...

Calgar, Calgar 2, Cato, guiliman, uriel, tigurius

Less than I thought

[floral herald]

Both calgars would be really funny

[stark cypress]

Calgar

The cooler Calgar

[past sphinx]

tank commander calgar

calgar with kung fu grip

[pine matrix]

"Nightbringer, I've come to bargain"

[stark cypress]

Now with extra kung fu grip!!!

What does that mean? I don't know!

[past sphinx]

primaris librarian calgar

[stark cypress]

Oh my god...

[past sphinx]

and of course

[stark cypress]

Calgar line of dolls

[past sphinx]

venerable dreadnaught calgar

[stark cypress]

Tactical assault calgar

Scout Calgar

[past sphinx]

he could fill every single HQ role if gw really wanted to be cool

[charred bridge]

Same, I picked up Drukhari weapon proficiency and destroyed them with Jae

They barely got a turn

The act 5 final boss has the aura

[sour sequoia]

Somehow the actual most fucked up genestealers tech I’ve discovered is that you can let tyranids eat cars for the +1 to hit in Final Day

And that Goliath trucks are only 2.75” wide, and Rockgrinders are only 2.85”

[pastel rampart]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/946634533833441290/1457563088936108083/image0.jpg?ex=695c74e8&is=695b2368&hm=c29ddf13ba43633e6d241ae1f989d72c13fa7b7d19e42aa4c97232341fb9dff2&

[junior summit]

tanks do this too against infantry

[broken dew]

I suppose Asmodai would have terminator armor huh

Ngl i've been thinking about my lads too much i didn't really consider that a normal space marine with termie access would have normal armor too so they can swap when the situation calls for it

[desert jay]

Carnifex can have the occasional car, as a treat

[sour sequoia]

The first paragraph of this is like so rarely relevant for what you can take in Final Day (vanguard only and really boils out to gargoyles and lictors) that I’ve gone 15 games without realizing it doesn’t specify they can only eat infantry

[desert jay]

Oh, Lictors can have the occasional car as a treat

[sour sequoia]

But I had my big raveners brick eat a ridgerunner’s spare tire from 8” away and then dunk a riptide and crisis team while high on rubber

[vital barn]

I choose to believe this is just the ravener running around with random metal plates taped to it like tank crews in WW2 attaching random mattresses

[desert jay]

Oh it doesn't even kill the car if the car's healthy

[vital barn]

I suppose it's not like GSC vehicles give a fuck about whether they have the durability of 1 or 2 ply tissue

[sour sequoia]

Oh no, my indirect fire car took 3 mortals and continues to sit on home behind two walls -> 33 attacks of wounding anything in the game on 5s with twinlink and AP2 D2 now hits on 2s

[west zealot]

Tbh, would give a lot for an image of a lictor going on a joyride (not what you meant, but...)

[wide veldt]

Do yall think the Rogue Trader TTRPG is still worth a read?

[wide veldt]

Also

I think I would wanna be a tech priest

If I had to be someone in the imperium

[mild glen]

I still think the best job in the Imperium is "massage therapist for the custodes". 😜

[charred bridge]

Nah a rival underling would poison you in your sleep, 30 generations of their family used the most cutthroat tactics to beat out countless hundreds of dynasties accross the system in order to even set foot on Terra let alone be a custodes massage therapist. You would be just another soon to be cold stepping stone on their quest of custodes caretaker

[main pagoda]

Sorta depending on what you're looking for dark heresy might fulfil your needs

[pale narwhal]

so a buddy of mine is starting to collect Seraphon for AoS. Fortuitously, a guy was selling the stormcast half of Skaventide for a really good price and I picked it up- I have that plus two unbuilt dracothian guard for my collection.

Are there any AoS savants in chat who know what I should be looking for next? aside from just picking models that look cool to me (I will be converting/kitbashing relatively heavily, I've decided)

[runic swallow]

Irl it’s colloquially referred to as “back scratching”

[tepid stratus]

For stormcast you've got options depending on your personal taste so congrats on picking space marines lite in terms of options. But some generic good stuff would be vigilors, Ionus Cryptborn, the storm reach portal, stormstrike palladors, vanquishers, the lord relictor and Krondys

[deft crest]

Reading books are never worth it. Evil things TTRPG books. /joke

[thin ibex]

Kinda depends on how one qualifies "worth it"

[sour sequoia]

CTAN META BACK

PREPARE YOURSELVES

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/fjbp4zev/500-worlds-titus-the-rules-that-make-nekrosor-ammentar-destruction-incarnate/

[mental birch]

The C’tan Shard of the Nightbringer has seen a bunch of its characteristics increased to account for its larger, more impressive miniature,

Rip farsight

Move from 40mm to 60mm with no change in statline

[jaunty dawn]

pfff

nightbringer looks so boring

the profile

like idk if its mechanically strong but compared to previous iterations of ctan it's kinda just a big stick

[floral herald]

One of the casualties for 10e is interesting looking melee profiles imo

[pastel rampart]

Nightbringer, boring? Say it ain't so.

[floral herald]

Everything (hyperbole - exceptions exist) is just a scrimblo blade with relatively good stats and maybe a strike/sweep

[jaunty dawn]

also a tough stick tbf but still

[floral herald]

But also true, Nightbringer has been a bland melee king for 7 editions

[jaunty dawn]

fair

[pastel rampart]

Nightbringer's always been the mechanically strong but dull pick because he always just Killed Things Gooder.

[floral herald]

Sometimes he ignored invuls which was kinda spooky

[pastel rampart]

http://puu.sh/KGvHT/c4debdad25.jpg

Sooooo exciting 😴

[jaunty dawn]

idk that last one is pretty cool

much more kinetic that most things you get in 40k

[pastel rampart]

Given most armies were (and still are) marines, it means most don't get affected by it.

[sonic hare]

I'm gonna be out 300 this year lmao

[jaunty dawn]

oh strength 4 is a really low threshold lmao

didn't see that

[pastel rampart]

Yeah lol

[jaunty dawn]

hits orks though

[broken dew]

i would simply ignore the etheric tempest

[jaunty dawn]

at the time

which definitely makes sense

dw about it

[pastel rampart]

Gaze of Death also doesn't work in practice because he was on a 40mm base so like, how many models are you really fitting under the ordnance template vs how many can you kill with 5 attacks at WS 6 and S10.

http://puu.sh/KGvI5/cafcc9463a.jpg

Meanwhile!

[sour sequoia]

So at least in 10th so far he had some (more) exciting play in Hypercrypt because its detach rule was grey knights’ uppy downy + a 6” proximity deepstrike strat and being on a 40mm as killiest model in the game meant he was just popping up inside people’s walls

Like I think the new model’s great and ctan meta’s back if the others get buffed to this statline but I think its legit a nerf because you can’t hide the god of death under someone’s bed anymore

Void Dragon benefits a lot from more wounds, as does deceiver and transcendent, nightbringer doesn’t really care as Distraction Carnifex of all time and now the heavy ass anti-tank stuff actually works on him

[pastel rampart]

https://assets.warhammer-community.com/sizecomp-qaj5alqpz0.jpg

[rocky shale]

They lost half damage because people couldn't read the rules commentary on how melta interacts

[pastel rampart]

He's definitely not on a 40mm anymore

[sour sequoia]

Exactly

He big as shit

40k players always correlate damage to size so I was getting people to feed angron and big knights to that boy. No more

[broken dew]

holy shit

he's enormous

[tepid stratus]

Now we just need banana man and the generic to be put on the same base size

[rocky shale]

I'm no longer playing tricksy elves. I'm playing elves with firepower.

[pastel rampart]

Yeah he's on I think an 80mm base?

[sour sequoia]

People are expecting 80 or 90, IIRC void dragon is 80 so I expect similar stature

[pastel rampart]

Which would put him in line with the Void Dragon, yeah

[broken dew]

holy hell

[tepid stratus]

80, same as the void dragon

[sour sequoia]

Would be awkward if he continued to be any smaller given the difference in killing power

[tepid stratus]

Excited to get my hands on him now that I've locked down my paint scheme for ctan

[sour sequoia]

Forecasting is that Pantheon of Woe is a ctan detachment

[sonic hare]

he said no pickles

[paper bluff]

I do like that fights first

[sour sequoia]

Big day for knights players who’re still upset they can’t afk anymore

[sour sequoia]

Its the only fights first in necrons!

[broken dew]

question about C'tan, lore not tabletop, do they just dissipate when they die or do they leave anything behind

cause i know like all of them got split into a million pieces

but mr.the flayer got killed properly

did he just evaporate

[paper bluff]

Explode

[sour sequoia]

Ctan Shards leave fuckall behind and necron supertech is wack so its questionable who’s really killed any of them besides mr silent king

But they have zero warp presence whatsoever, they’re not psykers or connected at all

[mental birch]

Define place on?

[paper bluff]

And the "die" part has always been mucky

[mental birch]

But hmm

[broken dew]

yeah

cause iirc the only C'tan that is said to be specifically dead and not just

made into shards

is The Flayer

[tepid stratus]

The metaphysical concept of the flayer got wacky

[paper bluff]

They're embodied energy beings

[broken dew]

at least as far as i know

[paper bluff]

They were feasting on the energy from stars in their prior forms But then they were given bodies via the necrodermis

[broken dew]

yeah

[pastel rampart]

That's the fun part, it was never defined!

But most people agreed it was with the center hole directly over the center of the model.

[sour sequoia]

Oldhammer my be-something

[pastel rampart]

Now, maybe it was addressed in an old FAQ but I wouldn't even know where to track 20+ year old FAQs for a long-dead edition.

[paper bluff]

Assumingly, if you are somehow able to destroy a catan shard and I mean break the necrodermis. That shard of that energy being rejoins, the universe and the prior form of it which is relatively harmless

[broken dew]

is that what happened Llandu'gor or did something different happen to that guy

[paper bluff]

Prior to being given bodies.
The C'tan were.....Uninterested, I guess one could say, in the physical universe

They weren't doing much

Imagine dr. Manhattan spread infinitely thin as a cloud over a star taking energy from it

Then some super science gives him a repairing metal body

That's the c'tan

[pastel rampart]

Checked Chapter Approved 2004 and nope, Gaze of Death isn't mentioned in the Necron FAQ section. So unless it was on their website (rip) or in a random white dwarf, placing the ordnance blast was a ??? ask ur opponent lol situation.

[paper bluff]

The sharding process takes that enormous concentration of power and breaks it into many little bits of multiple bodies. The perspective and abilities of those shards is still shared amongst the whole, but it's nowhere near As concentrated.

To use the stars as an example, it's the difference between a fusion core versus a literal star. Both incredibly powerful, but one is way different

[broken dew]

So Llandu'gor was in that case dispersed into space dust again and that's why they say he's the only one who died

[paper bluff]

No no

They actually killed the energy being

[broken dew]

oh ok so he's just gone gone

[paper bluff]

Yeah

[mental birch]

Still thinking how to myrmidax?

Well Myrmidax tech priest

[broken dew]

so could he have done the flayer virus at any time or was it a "i'm dying, i'll use all my power" thing

[paper bluff]

And that's the complicated bit. Destroying energy is a bit of a very interesting thing. The flayer virus is odd. I recommend reading the twice dead king series

It's not really known if llandu'gor is responsible for the flayer curse or destroying him is what caused the flayer curse

[broken dew]

destroying an energy being sounds hard

[paper bluff]

Yes, and possibly a reason why the silent king erased those weapons from the minds of the necrons

[broken dew]

yeah i mean

[paper bluff]

And also destroying an energy being caused some funky stuff with the fabric of reality allegedly

[broken dew]

if i killed a god and it super cursed my entire species i would also not be eager to do it again

[broken dew]

i imagine it would

[paper bluff]

Idk if the curse was known at the time....... but it was definitely known Don't do that again after it happened

[broken dew]

yeah

i mean if anything that'd give them even more incentive not to try again later

[paper bluff]

If you want to read about the consequences, I again point to the twice dead king series

[broken dew]

mhm

[paper bluff]

I offer no context and just tell you,This is a scene from those books

It's not a spoiler cause you're like what the f*** is that

[broken dew]

terrifying

[thin ibex]

I kinda don't mind the night bringer just being "kill more gooder"

He's supposed to be death incarnate pretty much, the best at killing there is

He's so killy that he's the like... chosen image to represent death as a concept for many races supposedly

[paper bluff]

The deceiver's been the odd one out on for a while now imo

Somebody that's important in the lore, but on the tabletop, it's like eh

[thin ibex]

Redeployment shenanigans can be strong, just less impact during the game

[sour sequoia]

I got a 10th deceiver list I think can cook

Use that as your core

[floral herald]

What are DDAs?

[paper bluff]

Doomsday arks

[sour sequoia]

Big kablooie

Ostensibly a lil pricy but starshatter and flat 4 damage blast makes em dunkasaurus rex into the deathwing and victrix and scarab occult meta

[tepid stratus]

Shame 3 DDAs is expensive

That's a lotta dollars

This has honestly been my largest complaint building a new 40k army from scratch. At least with EC a couple of combo boxes for me everything short of the heroes

[thin ibex]

3 DDA's in guessing the idea is getting ideal sight lines with redeployment?

[sour sequoia]

Ideal sightlines, getting to the safe side of the board, whatever

Starshatter makes em fast enough but redeploy makes it so you can’t fuck up

[sour sequoia]

The wild thing is they’re such an old kit the price is. Kinda low for GW

My complaint and reason I ain’t done my third yet is they are possibly the most painful effort/time-to-reward ratio for assembly and painting

Ass assembly, finicky parts, mandatory 12-16 part subassembly

[main pagoda]

yeah the ribs can go die in a fire

[atomic apex]

does "a friendly unit within 3" of [this model]" include the unit itself?

I assumed yes, but wasn't entirely sure

[tepid stratus]

I just haven't been able to get any through my locals. And I really don't want to pay for shipping direct from GW

[past sphinx]

auras effect those inside, including the aura giver

unless somehow they are outside of their own aura

[atomic apex]

I was looking at the Hexmark return fire thing

[past sphinx]

yeah its basically the same rule as Guns blazing on Cypher

[atomic apex]

I am entirely too enamored with Hexmarks, because 0 CP Overwatch sounds hilarious

[thin ibex]

used right, they can actually just tear some shit up

had great success in a crusade

[paper bluff]

No you've got great reason to be

Fantastic off in the corner objective holders, behind enemy lines

[atomic apex]

yeah they seem useful to flank with

[paper bluff]

Great for points and effective for 75 points

[atomic apex]

since if you sit near max range, you can't get shot back without enemies having to approach first, right?

thanks to Lone Operative

[paper bluff]

And also multi threat eliminator works with the hex mark itself

[atomic apex]

yeah that was what I was wondering about originally

I assumed it did, but wanted to check

[paper bluff]

I never realized it, but yeah, it would

Rapid ingress though, apparently won't let you use the first turn though Unless specifically noted

[atomic apex]

currently trying to figure out what I actually wanna do for a Necron list

I only knew I wanna fit in 2-3 Hexmark if I can so far

[paper bluff]

2 is about all you'll need

[sour sequoia]

Their abilities won’t stack like they did in the index, tends to be a one and done pretty often

[mental birch]

Still stuck on brainstorming a magos

kitbash

🙁

[atomic apex]

Ah so if you have multiple Hexmarks you won't get to use Inescapable Death for each one?

Oh wait I see it now

Didn't read the wording on that closely enough

[thin ibex]

Question
Veterans of the Long War: Each time a model in this unit targets an enemy unit with a melee attack, re-roll a Wound roll of 1. If that enemy unit is within range of an objective marker, you can re-roll the Wound roll instead.

This means I get to reroll melee wounds of 1, but does it mean I fully reroll wounds on an objective or only melee wounds?

[atomic apex]

Still only on melee by my reading

[thin ibex]

My reason for asking is that the sentence ends regarding the melee, and a new one starts addressing the conditions around an objective

[wide veldt]

So here’s a weird question

Obviously per model/box it’s more expensive

But how expensive is it actually to run an imperial knights army

Like,,,, is it more or less expensive to make a 2000 IK army

[mental birch]

compared to?

[wide veldt]

I mean idk what the “standard” army is but people talk about how some armies are more expensive than others so just like, I guess generally

[mental birch]

so you can get a 2K Imperial knight army if you know where to look for roughly, 1600ringgit thta's, 400 usd

IIRC a standard army hits around 5-600 usd

[wide veldt]

Alright so yeah surprisingly cheap just cause most knights are great money to points value lol

[mild glen]

Yeah. Sure. But think of the butts I could touch before then.

[junior summit]

depends on how many armigiers you run which is unfortunate because they're the core of a lot of knights lists but typically cheaper than normal armies

if you wanted to run custodes in modern KT, would that be two or three custodians, do you think?

[floral herald]

Honestly, band of specialist SoS and 1 stode as a raid boss leader

5-6 models total

Basically Imperial Necrons I guess haha

(A wrinkle for doing it any other way is that this edition of KT doesn't allow teams with less than 5 models)

[junior summit]

do custodians get random schlubs besides the SoS?

like can you just grab random scribes or something?

but yeah SoS + 1 custodes is probably the most likely

[floral herald]

You could probably make some for kill team

[vital barn]

I believe they have armoury thrall guys

from the various indentured clans that make their supergear

so 3 custodes + 3-4 chumps

I thought there was already a 3 custode kill team?

[floral herald]

In the previous edition compendium custodes could be played as 4 custodes but they didn’t make it into the new edition

I think if you were to try to get the feeling right all basic guys wolf scouts might be best?

Not perfect though

[atomic apex]

if you have two different rules giving +1 to hit rolls, do they stack?

[junior summit]

I think 3 custodes is too many

that's a lot of power or you end up with weirdly weak custodes

[rocky shale]

For new models theyre like a mid-to-affordable army depending on the specific composition you go for. You can also just go miniswap hunting and a lot of knights get cycled through there because people buy them and give up half way through building/painting

[junior summit]

what's the usual markdown on used minis?

[rocky shale]

Usually at least 15% off MSRP just because thats what you get get from discount retailers. For assembled stuff maybe like 20-25% off, painted more, stuff someone just wants to get rid of, even more.

[wide veldt]

Also

Checked out tau for the first time since getting back into 40k

U really can just run oops all Kroot these days huh

[rocky shale]

Yup

[wide veldt]

That’s v amusing

[junior summit]

experimental prototype cadre is very funny to me because it's 'hey you know the "tau shooting phase only" joke that wasn't relevant after 7th? What if we made it real?"

[atomic apex]

Extra 6" range on potentially improved flamers and fusion blasters is very funny

[wide veldt]

Also uh

Does uh

Does leagues of Votann really only have like…. 10 kinds of unit lol

[rocky shale]

Yeah

Its still more unique units than EC or World Eaters

[charred bridge]

Me when I say I play Tau

Bet you were expecting mechs and units that like to be far away, get kroot hounded

[rocky shale]

And that's with the second release wave they just got

[junior summit]

incidentally, I still appreciate how siege regiment has offmap artillery that isnt worthless or disgusting

remarkably well navigated there

[rocky shale]

Imperial Agents orbital bombardment now!

[sour sequoia]

GSC also only has 10 units

14 of 24 datasheets/models in the range is characters lmao

Full third of our units come from one box

[rocky shale]

Honestly the only thing that votann feels like it's missing at this point is like a medium/heavy tank that isn't a transport

Something between an hlf and sagitsur but with no transport and a some guns

[junior summit]

none transport left guns

[mental birch]

that's one of the better armies

[pale narwhal]

kroot hunting pack has been one of the most consistent tau archetypes in terms of tournament performance throughout most of 10th

[jaunty dawn]

Composite mark Vs like

(They had a single cannon sponson, in between the all machine gun and two cannon variants)

[mental birch]

I like retaliation but have to give my dues to KHP

[tepid stratus]

Yes but no! You can only ever modify a hit or wound roll by 1 in either direction but if you were under the effects of two +1 rules and a -1 rule it would even out to still benefitting from a +1 to hit

[tepid stratus]

IMO the way to do custodes for modern kill team is the eyes of the emperor. The old veterans that lay down their armour and retire to spy work because age is catching up to them. That way you could have a team of 5 dudes that are relatively cracked by kill team standards but without any particularly good wargear stats

It'd probably be 20 wound guys on a 5+ save with bolt pistols and misericordias (so probably 3/4 damage hitting on 3s with lethal 5+ and balanced maybe?) throw in specialists that play around with seek, silent and CP manipulation and away you go

[broken dew]

Lore familiar

[pastel rampart]

Me when I stub my toe on the door frame.

[broken dew]

Hehehe

[junior robin]

finally, the emperors plumbers primaris lieutenant.

also really tempted to get those sorcerers, the leaderface one is quite iconic

[sour sequoia]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/eskktjc3/500-worlds-titus-ctan-shards-and-destroyers-flood-the-field-with-new-necrons-detachments/

All the titus stuff makes sense now if he was playtested into This

Titus and victrix will just get deleted by 80% of today’s preview lmfao

[charred bridge]

I see no problem with running all the c'tan shards at once, the Necrons did it during the war in heaven and the orks/Eldar survived /s

[broken dew]

ah yes "Pantheon of Woe"

i do love running checks notes

[floral herald]

Whoa, whatta pantheon

[broken dew]

The Nightbringer, The Deceiver and The Void Dragon all at once

some interesting rules

this seems kinda nice for a passive thing, being able to get more reanimation protocols going by just having your C'tans get killy

[tired cairn]

It'll be funny if they ever accidentally add a non-C'Tan Necron

(is C'tan really not a keyword?

[thin ibex]

I feel like the "all ctan all the time" detachment is just like... how the necrons get played by a lot of layman

[tired cairn]

It was a really strong way to play earlier this edition

[thin ibex]

Actually, incidentally, kind of makes sense as a call back to the edition start. Wasn't it ultra vs necrons as like the first major thing?

[tired cairn]

Wasn't that the starter box last edition?

[tired cairn]

I think this question made the Tyranids cry

[raven meteor]

Yeah I think it was Tyranids and space marines, given the example images given in core rules

[thin ibex]

Oh yeah it was nids

Where an i remembering all those big necron vs marines videos from?

Ah that was 9th edition wasnt it

[still warren]

Is more of the Hurion stuff gonna be revealed on the 16th? Want to see if he actually had a chaos ironkin in his crew

[floral herald]

Probably

[charred bridge]

So as someone who doesn't wargame, what are potential shenanigans that could arise from running all the c'tan in the wargame?

[rocky shale]

Basically the same as any list with a pile of giant monsters

[dense idol]

not sure how I feel about a detachment explicitly dedicated to all-c'tan meme lists

[raven meteor]

I'm just getting into things but
You've spent half your points on three massive units essentially
They'll blend anything they look at but are also susceptible to being out traded by lower-point antitank units

[sour sequoia]

3+ deadly demise is good

Vect Aura Deceiver is amazing
Advance and Charge Nightbringer is amazing

[rocky shale]

At least they're not half damage now

[sour sequoia]

You’ve got desperate breakout forcing that does work on vehicles which is wacky

[sour sequoia]

They’re identical for 87% of the game and I think forcing mass d1 lethals is still best way to kill

[rocky shale]

Probably yeah

[sour sequoia]

3+ fight on death against units in the detachment ctan aura is also fucking goofy in necrons

[rocky shale]

D6+X damage weapons are better into them now basically

Anything 4+ damage benefits

[sour sequoia]

I think thats your shitkicker is lychguard and wraiths becoming the most obnoxious attrition units on earth with fight on death, AP buff, resurrection and all their defense layers

I think there’s interesting play patterns but the people who want xenos knights/greater daemons monster mash will fall flat on their face

Win/win

[thin ibex]

all ctan pretty much is just like... killing stuff with nearly unkillable stuff

[raven meteor]

I guess the counterplay in that scenario, if you don't have Godly Antitank, is to play for VP and basically just avoid the trio of unkillable gods?

[floral herald]

Yeah it’s the same as other deathballs

[charred bridge]

I only know my wargame from random peeks at discussions here, youtube, and reddit but is the play you just like play objective and hold points

[floral herald]

Broadly speaking the strategy for deathstar units is to feed less important units into the woodchipper while you move around them and score

[raven meteor]

Looking up the Void Dragon I finally actually saw a picture of 40K Mars
This is so funny
They put a fuckin skull on it 😭 😭 😭

[topaz elk]

Man, I wish there was more bow models that had like, strings on their bow

Because GW bows look so silly without them

[runic swallow]

The funny thing is it’s not clear if that’s a “the skull is a symbol of the imperium so they intentionally made that” or if it’s just a funny thing the artist included and wasn’t intentional in-universe by the mechanicum

[runic swallow]

It’s the tough thing with how easily snapped they are or they end up looking way too chunky

A lot of mini companies have difficulty with bow strings below very big figures sizes

[junior summit]

Have you seen port maw?

[charred bridge]

40k the opposite of subtle

[sour sequoia]

Because they’re monsters, you can moveblock em into walls pretty good. No 6” consolidate, no fight first, etc that typically make units unstoppable or unapproachable. Just very big

The armies that don’t have units ready to go to deal with these guys have lots of grenade strats and tricks around it

[pastel rampart]

I find that tea string is about the right scale for most models.

[tired cairn]

Subtly, like subtext, is for cowards

Port Maw is hilariously on the nose though

[thin ibex]

you can also pretty easily trap ctan with chaff

they usually dont have enough attacks to wipe a big blob in one turn

which means you can trap em for like 2 rounds

[sour sequoia]

Guard player looking and seeing Nightbringer kills like 14 guardsmen on average per round, realizing they will never give a fuck, and pointing three dorns at rest of the necrons

[desert jay]

It’s worth it to sacrifice 2-3 battleline squads to keep the big 300 pt beatstick from doing anything actually useful

“I just get more guardsmen from the guardsmen store”

[tired cairn]

"It sounds like you are just feeding guardsman to the C'tan" and his logistics officer just shrugged

[charred bridge]

You're right, which means we can kill it by overfeeding it

[charred bridge]

Tzeench speaking in subtext

If you know then you know, but not really thats part of the grand plan

[atomic apex]

https://tenor.com/view/zap-brannigan-gif-3693609588698479737

[wide veldt]

I know it’s a little silly but I’m p disappointed there’s no way to like

Field a Votann

Like I feel like you should be able to field a C’tan shard kinda guy

[tired cairn]

I'm not sure how big they are, but I get the impression they are more like a datacenter lol

[still warren]

There's art of them, and if you wanted to be very silly it would be the mech core 100% of something along the line of a megazord

[rocky shale]

Orb

[still warren]

They do be contemplating it

[rare turtle]

for grofit

[sweet solar]

Votan Fragment but its a knight

[thin ibex]

New Votann unit. Titan scale orb. It only has melee attacks and has fly so it can roll over stuff

Has impact mortals, pass over mortals

[sweet solar]

wait no i got it

Votan Fragment Cascade

each additional car is another fragment of a core, unlocking new levels of power

and a new main weapon

hell make it a psyker-machine like the psy-titan, each added core fragment increases the potency of its powers, then you can do a lore thing like "actually to contain a full votan the train would have to be several dozen cars long"

[dense idol]

promoting you to head of product design at Games Workshop

[jaunty dawn]

As an aside armoured clash which came out over the last year has a train as one of the factions super units

Hover train

Its an epic type scale game though

[thin ibex]

votann has a hover train in a different game?

[jaunty dawn]

No a non warhammer game sorry

But old school squats had a tracked train in epic

Mostly brought it up that a game unironically implemented a battle train in modern times

[pastel rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/zardoz-sean-connery-gif-18293084

[wide veldt]

Yeah but the actual guy wouldn’t be in the army

It’d be like….

A robot with a votann “shard” in it or smth

It’s just weird that they’re so relevant to the faction in lore but have no real bearing on the army as it exists

Yknow

[floral herald]

The leagues are also insanely protective of their votann cores and probably wouldn’t put em in harms way at all

[upper canopy]

But I would

[wide veldt]

Like idk

Remote piloting or smth

Yknow

[raven meteor]

Some sort of Avatar Of Khaine esque 'the Very Important Thing occasionally spits out a crazy everything killer monster as a last resort' would be cool
Lost tech titanic death robot

[wide veldt]

Man I kinda wish I didn’t know the Votann codex came out cause this is just

Depressing

As an army lmao

[upper canopy]

Counter is that 40k is a setting where every faction put their big important guys who's death would absolutely obliterate any chance of victory in the short and long term and then they use that guy as a vanguard unit

[wide veldt]

Like

They have similar numbers of uniques to like, world waters

*world eaters

But they don’t uh

Inherit

Anything

[jaunty dawn]

Votann are literally just norn queens from tyranids

[raven meteor]

Which is why they should get norn emissaries :3

[jaunty dawn]

Or like hive tyrant

But then like

[floral herald]

Huh, that’s a pretty good comparison

[jaunty dawn]

Idk they arent actually tangibly connected to the norn queen in a unique way

[wide veldt]

Writing down: votann get tamed tyranids

[jaunty dawn]

Norn emissary the connection is bigger but its a really new unit and also like, isnt actually any different than any other big nid

[raven meteor]

Anyway I am told the Votann death bringing monster unit is actually just like a dude
With a halberd

[jaunty dawn]

Yeah they have a cool tyranid hunter dude

[sour sequoia]

Buri can slam and jam with primarchs

[jaunty dawn]

Fwiw votann have actually been pretty well supported

[sour sequoia]

He’s not a nightbringer or angron tier guy but got damn

[jaunty dawn]

Two kill teams, fairly snappy and interesting second wave, many random limited character models

[sour sequoia]

There were some incredible crashouts from custodes and grey knights players over the summer about xenos getting a guy who actually Fights

[wide veldt]

That’s fair

Idk im just v underwhelmed

I feel like New Warhammer Faction should really like…. Come out swinging at this point in the life cycle and it’s like

They’ve got some okay stuff

[jaunty dawn]

I think thats fair too

[wide veldt]

Idk about mechanics I’m sure they’re good

I’m talking about sauce and variety mostly

[atomic apex]

I do like the Yaegir killteam

[jaunty dawn]

Its just like they’re among the best off in terms of new ranges

I also do think they have a decent amount of variety fwiw. Like now that you have like 4 trench coat units and a couple big muscly men units and big robutts

Gaps in the roster still for sure

[vital barn]

to be fair I have no fucking idea how in-game killiness scales to in-narrative killiness in 10e because people like Mephiston and Ahriman are weedy little shits and Titus is almost unkillable

[atomic apex]

The Bombast is also continuously very fun to me as a concept
That the Yaegir just have a dedicated guy whose job is to be really loud and flamboyant, to distract you while the rest sneak up to shoot you in the back

[jaunty dawn]

I just noticed that the big frontier quad is one store page for both units

Thats not how they used to do it

[raven meteor]

The votann mechanic is really odd
Also I'm not sure 'luck has need keeps toil earns' is as banger a faction motto as they think

[jaunty dawn]

Man door hook hand car door

[wide veldt]

Anyway I had some faeries deliver the 10e tau, nid, and votann codices to me

So I will be making an army for each

[raven meteor]

They're very proud of it!

Eyyyyyy

[wide veldt]

And probably an extra army what for Kroot because the idea of Its Just The Kroot is fucking sending me

[wide veldt]

CHAPTER MASTER TAU LANDING CRAFT INCOMING

PREPARE FOR VOLLEY

[raven meteor]

My backlog is a 2000 point shooty sister list, carcharodons space marine list, and custodes list

[wide veldt]

Nothing but Kroot come out

Is this a joke

[thin ibex]

The conversation has moved, but I still don't get how a norn emmisary fit into like a tiny space to try and ambush Bobby g

[wide veldt]

My understanding is hilariously it’s would be p good because the Kroot units are the best part of the tau

In 10e

Mechanically

[thin ibex]

Tbf is kinda one unit. Though KHP is also strong because heavily elite armies are big

[jaunty dawn]

I think the detachment mainly makes regular kroot big statcheck tarpits

[floral herald]

The imperium doesn’t either

[jaunty dawn]

I thought it just happened in the woods

[thin ibex]

The main thing is it was hiding in a small enough space to come barreling out after going entirely undetected

By like

Everyone

Which includes custodes

It's as big as a bus

If not bigger

You'd generally notice that

[jaunty dawn]

Psychic stuff probably

[thin ibex]

It's got a "you can't see me" psychic field, it actually makes no effort to hide

[floral herald]

Isn’t it like weirdly hyper jointed to fit in weird cracks and such

[vital barn]

I think that's Lictors

Lictors are like cats, they're basically a fluid

but tyranid capabilities vary wildly in a way that makes very little sense so you kind of just have to roll with it

[vital barn]

you can only assume that "cost to produce X creature for the hivemind" doesn't literally mean "mass of various components" because otherwise there would just be 50000 carnifexes and hive tyrants and it wouldn't be a campaign

or a similarly vast number of elite hunters like lictors

[jaunty dawn]

I figure its that some biomorphs require specific materials that are rarer than others

That and the fact that infantry is actually useful and necessary

[sour sequoia]

Varies by matching unit to unit for their actual purpose but Buri beats the shit outta basically any Character Size Guy instead of Giant Monster Size Guy

[vital barn]

they eat planets, they have as many rare metals as they want

[thin ibex]

Nids be using swarming tactics because the lives of their dudes isn't calculated when it comes to efficiency

[jaunty dawn]

I mean

Theyre still gonna have a lot more of some resources than others

[thin ibex]

Why make expensive, thinking things when many, mostly brainless things will do

[vital barn]

what I'm saying here is that the expensive things really shouldn't be that expensive unless "hive mind juice" is a separate resource pool to meat points

[thin ibex]

I think also there are probably other reasons to create other biomorphs beyond just resource expenditure

[vital barn]

a carnifex' mass in gaunts is handy but if there are, say, 30k space marines holed up on Baal you would expect to see the hive mind go "right, time for five times their numbers in living tanks" rather than throwing literally tens of millions of gaunts at them uselessly

it does this, and it sends out a few hundred 'fexes

[thin ibex]

It's not like the Imperium only equips its space marines with or custodes with only gatling lascannons

[vital barn]

I also think that Astartes are woefully underequipped, to be fair

Custodes do all get the good shit

[thin ibex]

They still attach bolters to their power halberds

[jaunty dawn]

I mean yeah when the hive fleet is just jobbing thats all you can call it

[vital barn]

but in a world where random skitarii melee units that get spammed by the million have power swords, marines should all be using powered blades

[thin ibex]

Not gatling melta lascannons

[vital barn]

they're super mega sunsplosion bolters, to be fair

but that analogy doesn't really hold when the Hive Mind's industrial capacity isn't anything like a regular species

[thin ibex]

The bolter, within the confines of the setting at least, it's actually a very powerful standard armament, and is equal to 90% of any task you set before it. In the game, not so much

[vital barn]

it clearly can swap a hive ship from making infinite gaunts to making a bunch of tank beasts, but it makes a puny number of big guys compared to gaunts, so clearly there is some constraint on big guy production other than mass

[jaunty dawn]

But like if bolter resistant carapace requires specific minerals and gaunts dont then the amount of gaunts you make doesnt really affect the amount of carnifexes you can make

Cause just more of the shitty carapace doesnt help you any

And like yeah on the hive fleet scale that means hundreds of thousands of carnifexes

[vital barn]

yeah, you have to assume anything big requires unreasonably rare totally magic materials

[wide veldt]

Might also go try to find the genestealer cult codex

[jaunty dawn]

But it still means that less gaunts doesnt get you more carnifexes

[wide veldt]

I actually didn’t n kw you could play them in Warhammer proper until recently

[vital barn]

because I cannot stress enough how much of every remotely normal metal there is in your average planet

which they regularly crack and suck dry

except less gaunts does mean more fexes because sometimes they go "aha, swap to the big ones" and there's a meaningful tradeoff there

it's kind of odd

[tired cairn]

They don't eat most of the planet tbf

[thin ibex]

I think also, as far as problem solving, there's no perceived difference in efficiencies of you just send a kajilliion more gaunts rather than more carnifexes, because those besieged marines are gonna run out of ammo eventually and the guants stabbing bits will find holes to cut through.

It's only necessary to change gears when time is a factor or the biomass is being denied, which the marines aren't doing when stuck in one place with no support

[vital barn]

synapse creatures are also clearly metabolically expensive above and beyond anything they actually put into them

[jaunty dawn]

I mean part of the issue here is that the imperium should have an equally ridiculous industrial output and then they put out less tanks in the mega warzone than were in ww1

[vital barn]

presumably due to psychic nonsense

[tired cairn]

They seem to just eat the biosphere plus maybe stuff easily reachable by that

[vital barn]

again varies

it's mentioned that the earlier nid manifestations basically ate the entire crust

but these days they tend to just omnomnom all the biomass and leave

[thin ibex]

Like, you don't need to beat soldiers conventionally, if you have the means, you can just give people targets until they have no ammo, the whole while your spores are expanding and affecting them or consuming more of their resources to change filters. It's not like you care about preserving your own forces

[vital barn]

there's a scene or two of some magi arguing about whether this means the Nids are being picky eaters at a buffet or can't afford to take time eating

sure, but if you can make a swarm of carnifexes you might as well just win that way, because it's way better than a swarm of gaunts

if it's the choice between attrition tactics and attrition-tactics-with-way-better-troops, and you can make either, just make good stuff

[thin ibex]

That's kinda what I'm getting at. It's only better within certain parameters, it's like task and time specific

[tired cairn]

idk, you still want some infantry presumably. But there probably are limits other than mass for making larger stuff

[vital barn]

yeah but it is not deployed when it would be good, because you see "swap to carnifexes to breach the walls" and they send like 400 carnifexes and 10000000 gaunts

[jaunty dawn]

Theres diminishing returns on like

Energy expenditure

For one

[vital barn]

that is a differential not explained by reasonable force compositions

[jaunty dawn]

But thats not unique to nids in 40k writing

[vital barn]

if they sent four times as many carnifexes all the blood angels would be dead and you wouldn't need the gaunts or the very expensive swarmlord you made later

[thin ibex]

It be like "hive mind, why aren't you just making better stuff?"

is what I'm making winning?

"Yeah"

that's why.

"But you could win better!"

and?

[vital barn]

yeah but it's not winning because it's sending in good units in tiny penny-packets scaled to carefully match the size of the opposition, and as such is wasting a lot of perfectly good biomass

[floral herald]

The default tyranid thing is just “everything”

[vital barn]

so clearly there are a bunch of constraints on goodnid production that are not the stated ones, namely "biomass expensive"

[wide veldt]

“All carnifexes” is probably like

What the actual main body of the swarm is like

[jaunty dawn]

Like this isnt a nid writing issue this is a 40k writing issue

[tired cairn]

Maybe the whole needing DNA thing is actually not confused writers and Tyranids can't make DNA. And it's easier to Frankenstein a gaunt compared to a carnifex

[vital barn]

I can see why gaunt swarm is the default tactic, it makes sense there, but what I am trying to say here is that when the books say "big units are expensive in biomass" you kind of have to break that down into "there are a bunch of different things that aren't raw Nid Meat that control how many of these you can make, including nebulous psychic juice" or it makes zero sense

[tepid stratus]

Perhaps it's a limited production capacity? I imagine the spawning organisms for more complex nids are a lot harder to make and maintain than ones that churn out lesser nids

[sour sequoia]

First thing that comes to mind is the big nids are like 50 different bioforms versus the gaunt’s Two

[thin ibex]

Honestly I just think the hive mind doesn't view things on a strict "good stuff" and "shit stuff" binary, and that in general, the smallest usable platform is what functions best. It scales bioforms up in response to resistance, and then back down as resistance drops.

[vital barn]

and it keeps losing hive fleets because it refuses to embrace the all-in

idiot bug (affectionate)

[jaunty dawn]

Like a carnifex is wasting calories any time it isnt doing the stuff you need a carnifex for

[bright dove]

Well, the first thing that comes to mind for why it doesn't just make all carnifexes all the time is Square Cube Law.

[vital barn]

like, it works like a 40k faction and I have no problem with that, I'm just saying the technobabble is unusually bad here and is also in a topic I know about because I did an ecology degree

[sour sequoia]

I love the tyranids but we have. Solidly written story that has it pretty clearly always on Immediate Reaction Mode

[tired cairn]

There are a lot of problems if you start thinking about it. For example, the hive fleets (as in a particular group of ships, not the whole tendril) depicted aren't nearly big enough to hold all the biomass stripped from a planet (or even more than that)

[vital barn]

you could write way better technobabble

[bright dove]

And like, clearly the Hive Mind is willing to embrace multiple approaches on "How to Eat A Planet" what with Genestealers and Zoats.

[sour sequoia]

IIRC the reason Hydra and Typhon like, exist is as ways to backpatch hive fleets that got jebaited or find actual new intelligence

But the main fleets everybody knows are Reactive Sledgehammer

[thin ibex]

Vibe of the sentiment is like... why aren't all space marines driving invictor war suits, why have normal marines when you could have 10 man squads of stealth Dreadnoughts as your standard.

Actually, why not just have terminators only? Actually, why not have every terminator with a plasma cannon instead of a storm bolter?

[vital barn]

I'm not saying "it should just spam carnifexes all the time" but I am saying that the stated limits on why there aren't *way more carnifexes" whenever the Hive Mind decides it is Carnifex Time are bad stated limits and I would like to read the latest Earth Caste paper on this because clearly there is some interesting biology here that isn't included in the biology bits of the existing lore

space marines really should be packing a lot more power weapons than they currently are, since power swords basically are better normal swords

in other cases the tactical and industrial constraints make more sense to me than the bug boys do

[jaunty dawn]

Like if you want to come up with a watsonian explanation for why tyranid forces are made up the way they are you have to also do so for everyone else and its impossible because theres no intention of internal consistency in the first place

[vital barn]

I am annoyed by the poor quality of the fudge, not that there is a fudge

I say for the fifth time

[tired cairn]

Ok. I have a dumb idea: The Hive Mind's power is significantly related to the number of minds it is composed of. So the Hive Mind prefers making lots of little bugs over a smaller number of big ones

[raven meteor]

The idea I have in my head is that more complex biomorphs probably require an outsized presence in the hive mind?
It's easy to direct 300 termagaunts and like 5 lictors but hard to direct like 20 lictors

[bright dove]

I am now curious how many gaunts you get for the equivalent mass of a Carnifex (ignoring things like Gaunts don't have a digestive system)

[vital barn]

yeah, my preferred fudge here is "spawn more overlords" as opposed to "carnifexes require unspecified supermaterials"

[vital barn]

we do have some comically light listed masses for biotitans

[jaunty dawn]

Your justification for the fudge being shitty relies on the things mentioned though

[tired cairn]

(Lictors aren't the best example because they are supposed to be relatively independent)

[jaunty dawn]

Afaict

[bright dove]

As ever, Sci-Fi struggles with realistic measurements. 😛

[raven meteor]

I admittedly listed the first complex biomorph on my mind, which was them because Space Marine 2

[charred bridge]

Biotitans made of lb of feathers like imperial navy ships

[jaunty dawn]

Like if you say that relatively rare materials doesnt work cause they eat planets and yet dont make the commiserate amount of carnifexes that relies on 40k’s numbers to support the argument

[vital barn]

how big's a gaunt again, about large dog sized?

[floral herald]

Small horse

[tired cairn]

They are pretty close to human sized, model wise

[bright dove]

Human-ish sized, yeah.

[vital barn]

OK, call it 50kg purely because I can't be bothered to do more complex maths

listed mass of a bio-titan is 160 tons so 3200 gaunts

not sure whether that's a hierophant or one of the slightly smaller superheavy bugs Forge World used to do

[bright dove]

Still, gives an accurate enough image even if that is a comically low weight.

[tired cairn]

3600 gaunts would easily defeat a Hierophant under the current rules

[bright dove]

Do you want one (1) Bio-Titan, or 3,200 Gaunts.

[floral herald]

The hive mind wisely understands that all guns have a 16% chance to wound at worst

[vital barn]

if I was playing cerebrate at Baal I would happily trade in 5% of my gaunts for an unreasonable number of titans and hit the A-move button

[tired cairn]

Though the Hierophant would be significantly cheaper in real money than 3200 gaunts

[vital barn]

the reasons Nids like to escalate up from small stuff make perfect sense: big bugs take longer to make and can be in less places, planet eating goes fastest with lots of small boys and localised heavy resistance is mostly irrelevant because it doesn't matter if one city holds out when they can just slorp the rest

the bit that seems off to me is that when they do decide to bring in the heavy mob specifically to kill some annoying little shits it's always tiny

[charred bridge]

I'd imagine the constraint partly is time, every living thing needs calories if it isn't nutrient slurry. If gaunts can be made like the same hour and thrown out there's little waiting time while it was gestating and growing while more complex bioforms especially the synapse creatures might take days while using disproportionately more juice before it even contributes to the effort

[bright dove]

I say once again that the square cube law is a bitch in terms of resources required.

[charred bridge]

I don't know the actual time for queens to grow new units just spitballing

[floral herald]

I’m not super convinced by the principle that gaunts are a bad use of mass first of all but my assumption is that it’s actually kind of pork

You need the keep the production lines running since the Tyranids hibernate between worlds so anything you stop making you don’t have free access to on the next one

[charred bridge]

Well, larger creatures tend to be more calorie efficient than small ones long term.

[floral herald]

So you keep the various genelines are running to keep yourself agile and tweak the margins

[vital barn]

the square-cube law is wholly insufficient to explain the force mix, because making an infinitesimal dent in the gaunt swarm besieging the doom city is enough to make way way way way way more heavies than are actually deployed, and if you are deploying heavies then you have already committed the time to cook them so you may as well cook more

[junior summit]

iirc gaunts are semi autonomous?

[floral herald]

Since the nids value throwing the book and reinforcing success

[junior summit]

maybe the little ones don't require as much processing power

[floral herald]

Semi autonomous and self-reproducing

[vital barn]

what actually works in my head is some mix of "psychic control capacity" and "takes time to swap the big hive ship conveyor belts over so it usually just doesn't"

[floral herald]

They also don’t melt down after some time like the big overclocked bugs

[jaunty dawn]

Gaunts are capable of autonomy but not very good at it

[vital barn]

if the space marines held out way longer presumably there would be 10000 carnifexes

[floral herald]

(Carnifexes don’t do this so much)

[tired cairn]

Oh, I didn't know any of the Tyranid strains are self-reproducing. But I guess the ammo has to be

[vital barn]

carnifexes are just my example of "generic big scary nid tank" because it doesn't get into Synapse complications

Fexes are big idiots

[junior summit]

well you see the tyranids never produce any overlords so they actually supply cap very early /s

[floral herald]

A lot of the smaller ones are

[thin ibex]

hive mind is actually playing the tabletop game, but it doesn't recognize points limits

and knows that horde armies win on VP, which is what it wants

[floral herald]

Which presumably makes them sort of “free” if you win

[jaunty dawn]

They know that the enemy only has six turns to move onto objectives

[bright dove]

And like, there's the real Tyranid swarm winner.

[tired cairn]

What is this about them not a digestive system then?

[thin ibex]

if the whole map is just gaunts, its foes cant sit on objectives

[jaunty dawn]

Unfortunately baal was a narrative mission where the space marines started on the objectives

[floral herald]

Some of them don’t have them

[jaunty dawn]

Carnifexes and gaunts are capable of long term survival outside of synapse control yeah

[bright dove]

And it does track with actual swarm strategy: The Tyranids make a shitton of rippers.

[jaunty dawn]

Like on calth

So they can eat

[junior summit]

I think it would be really funny if the hive mind wasn't actually that mind-y and gets outnetworked by the tau or mechanicus

[floral herald]

A lot of Tyranids have like a 168 hour lifespan with a crazy metabolism so high you can fry eggs on their shells

[vital barn]

it's mentioned that a lot of their subcomponents have no digestive systems, so the gaunts usually don't either because a termagant with no gun is kinda useless

[jaunty dawn]

They can probably make both tho

[raven meteor]

Oh this reminded me of a funny late night thought I had during a convo a few days ago-
Necron with pet tyrannids

[bright dove]

Oh, Trazyn.

[vital barn]

they also have various big noncombat eaty things that just swallow a ton of stuff and then swandive into an acid lake to have that digest it rather than doing it itself

they're basically just bags with teeth

[tired cairn]

Huh, like the Exocrines or something?

[jaunty dawn]

I saw this video of a guy where his ant colony escaped and he was just like oh okay

Thats probably what a necron would be like

[thin ibex]

as far as i know, gaunts are meant to just start the breakdown process and then drag stuff to smaller nids or to the big digestion pools

[raven meteor]

Like...... would
Is there any reason for Tyrannid-Necron beef other than like
'necrons think they're disgusting vermin and start blasting'
Cuz Tyrannids are just on the Organics Shopping Spree

[jaunty dawn]

Some amount of tyranid population is also capable of growing and producing synapse creatures where there werent any before

[vital barn]

I really like that there's that one hive fleet that's just building a giant zerg hive cluster rather than doing the One Nid Playbook because it means that if I ever make a Nid army I can go "this one is an actual termite colony, they live here"

[charred bridge]

Tyranids get beat by Tau's Excel Premium but they have a team of users rather than one large blue boy. It would be very funny if Tyranids got defeated because they were reduced to numbers in an auspex an obvious pattern and weakness was found

[jaunty dawn]

Though like

[junior summit]

I think they do that

[charred bridge]

And every time Tyranids adapt on a macro scale the spreadsheet updates and finds a new weakness

[junior summit]

like I'm pretty sure the admech did that in one of the cain books

[jaunty dawn]

Why an orphaned tyranid infestation is capable of similar amounts of mischief to one supported by a hive fleet idk

[bright dove]

That is, in fact, one of the big ways the 'Nids lose, yeah.

[thin ibex]

IIRC Silent King and so overlords that align with him beef with nids cause Nids would steal any hope of getting back organic bodies and thus souls

[vital barn]

the admech noosphere is supposedly some kind of absurdly bullshit total augmented reality thing where everyone communicating in terabytes all the time

they really don't act like it is, though

[floral herald]

I forget but yeah something like that

[junior summit]

and then scrapcode

[jaunty dawn]

The noosphere is wild

[floral herald]

Some of the big linebreakers but not carnifexes

[charred bridge]

Tyrannids didn't know there was an slumbering tomb world when they began to harvest mostly

[thin ibex]

A lot of 40k super tech is kinda handled like real stupid tech

[charred bridge]

Or the biomass was worth attacking the planet with a tomb world

[jaunty dawn]

Like everything is internet of things because you have to make things from old blueprints and yet its a secret youre not allowed to know about

[thin ibex]

like a noosphere conceptually is nuts, but also skitarii sometimes have goggles welded on and die from radiation because its religious to do so

[vital barn]

there's a side comment in Dominion Genesis where a guy goes "I hate using meat voice because it's basically like signalling in morse" and then downloads and reads a thousand books in a second or two once he actually gets his noosphere link up

[jaunty dawn]

So the few who do just have complete control of 99% of infrastucture

[floral herald]

So the big one, and this is driving the silent king is that biotransference cannot be reversed if the Tyranids eat all the biomass and bail

[thin ibex]

so its like a massive amount of info being siphoned into your head at all times and then going "nah, I'm about to be irrational"

[bright dove]

The necrons would like there to be bodies to take over, yeah.

[vital barn]

the Noosphere is actually an organic Admech design, it was cooked up by Koriel Zeth

[raven meteor]

So here's the thing
Tyrannids strip a planet down to the bare stone and metal then fuck off
That would...... leave all the Tomb components of a Tomb World untouched right
But yeah I guess if they're trying to get flesh bodies back they'll be a problem

[thin ibex]

also like, if the nids still exist and biotransferrence happens, itll suck to be immediately eaten

[vital barn]

and originally had amazing anti-scrapcode properties that became completely obsolete one book later because Surprise Scrapcode is the only plot Black Library has there

[bright dove]

looks at how people use the modern internet Yeah, no, you're right, unrealistic.

[tired cairn]

Oh, ideas for this: when the link to the hive mind is too weak, maybe some Tyranids grow s digestive system. Or maybe even some turn into norn queen like things. Kind of like how some animals change sexes based on environmental or social circumstances

[vital barn]

there are some decidedly Tyranid concerns there admittedly

[jaunty dawn]

Yeah probably

I think its also like

[vital barn]

the Skitarii have those zillion byte data uplinks because the data matters to their bosses, but they don't care if they have to vatclone new skitarii every decade or two

[jaunty dawn]

A hive tyrant makes one psyker worth of energy

And is also capable of transceiving psychic energy

[floral herald]

This makes sense

[charred bridge]

But to me I'm like, mechanicus have terraformed devoured planets back to health but don't cause it's a ton of effort compared to strengthing defenses on existing one and Trazyn has musuem pieces and they could just restart life and wait a bit more to evolve I'm sure some Cryptek could start becoming biologists no matter how repulsive that sounds

[floral herald]

I kind of imagine Tyranids being self unpacking

So long as some of them are around they’ve got the potential to become a hive fleet

[charred bridge]

To a Necron waking up by fleshy is waking up by fleshy

[bright dove]

There are things like the Kraken on Fenris or some of the Catachan critters being tyranid-related.

[vital barn]

nids have eaten tomb complexes before

blackstone tasty

[charred bridge]

Imperium, Tau, Orks, get off my lawn all of you

[jaunty dawn]

Just sleep is risky yeah

[vital barn]

Shield of Baal has a tomb world being invaded by a bunch of gribblies while waking up and going full flayer virus

a cryptek sends a bunch of genestealers into the past and notices a new mural of fleshcrons stabbing them with spears

which is quite funny

[jaunty dawn]

And like the more tyranids there are the closer they are to sharing info and doing megaprojects like hydra

Is it hydra

[vital barn]

hydra or kronos, I think

one of the two

[tired cairn]

I think it's one that never got a specific detachment

[jaunty dawn]

Kronos

[charred bridge]

I think it's just one mind but fleets are more like different parts of the body, like for most people you can do things better with your left vs right hand or fingers vs toes

[bright dove]

'Nids get up to some real freaky stuff too.

[jaunty dawn]

Hm

No kronos is similar but

[vital barn]

I do really like nids, my complaints about bad fictional biology aside

[tired cairn]

Kronus eat up stuff left behind other hive fleets just for them. Since they don't get a lot of food from fighting daemons

[jaunty dawn]

Tiamet

Yeah kronus have symbiotic relatioships with nearby bigger hive fleets to perform their specific role

But tiamet like actively get deliveries from many different hive fleets

[vital barn]

Tiamat presents the incredible narrative opportunity of "nids on the defensive", one taken by, as far as I can tell, zero writers

also unrelated note

my word this man is large

I thought he was considerably smaller than that

[jaunty dawn]

So like silent king has seen tyranids when theyre potentially doing even more tiamet things

[floral herald]

It’s a shame brother Minutus went out like that

[charred bridge]

Your NornEats delivery is here, it's Cadian your favorite

[jaunty dawn]

Im not sure his model is quite that big

Maybe

I assumed his head was normal sized

[floral herald]

I think there’s some artistic scale happening there

[thin ibex]

the big implication in the setting is that like, the nids have won everywhere else right? And a soft assumption is that, barring some sort of big deal shit, the nids are primed to win here too right?

or are like, an inevitable victor

[raven meteor]

Wasn't there some thing about how the Tyranids are actually fleeing their home galaxy from something else

[thin ibex]

Not that i remember, but maybe

[bright dove]

Well no, there's not a lot of data about where it was like elsewhere

[jaunty dawn]

Its just a in universe theory

[bright dove]

Just the Silent King going "We gotta handle these fucking bugs!"

[thin ibex]

As i understood it, nids are implied to have eaten everything else, and are hella hungry, so are coming here cause big E is like a lighthouse

[jaunty dawn]

Like one ordo xenos guy posed it to another guy

[bright dove]

Well thanks to the Horus Heresy, we do have the exact moment where the 'Nids notice the Galaxy.

[jaunty dawn]

The “running away from something worse” theory, that is

[raven meteor]

Ahhhhhhh

[tired cairn]

I think that was an in-universe theory, but not like for sure. But there is a bit of a "every non-Imperium faction is the most dangerous faction to the Imperium" going on in the codices lol

[jaunty dawn]

I think its pretty well supported to say that because of like, the general progress of nids and the silent kings testimony, that tyranids are really scary aaaa

Like its hard to argue that the fleets entering the galaxy are likely to just taper off or anything

[vital barn]

yeah, they're one of the three "gonna kill you all" factions along with Chaos and the Necrons

[charred bridge]

Why doesn't SK just tell Cawl, is he stupid?

[vital barn]

although it's all phrased as total speculation from all parties so could be whatever

besides SK, who is instead very vague

[charred bridge]

Would the SK do that? Just lie to the other factions and his advisors for the benefit of the Necrons? Yes

[raven meteor]

This convo got me looking at tyrannids and waow
This seems pretty nice as a like
Mookswarm gun
4 chances to wound per fella

[raven meteor]

Speakin of lookin at factions
I am being tempted by Chaos
And have questions
What's the deal with 'chaos space marines' and then the more Focused groups like World Eaters, Emperor's Children, and so on
Can the Emperor's Children take CSM units or vise versa orrrrrrrr?
I know the space marine chapters like space wolves and ultramarines essentially bolt onto the wider 'space marine' faction but this doesn't seem like that

(I am looking at Emperor's Children with mild curiosity because their army rule seems fun)

It seems like the answer is 'no'
Which amuses me

'we're the chaos space marines!!!!'
'which chaos god do you worship?'
'chaos!!!!'
'wha-'
'CHAOS'

[jaunty dawn]

Yeah its different (nowadays) from even dark angels etc

Csm can take the basic unit from each though

As like allies

The cult legions also do share a lot of models but they have their own datasheets for each

[raven meteor]

Dang......
I like the master of executions off CSM but dislike their faction rule
But I really love Emperor's Children's faction rule

'you are shit fast but with a thematic gimmick you need to satisfy as a requirement'

[wide veldt]

also

reading For the Greater Good, like, the tau faction ability

this text feels like it wasw written by a fucking alien

[raven meteor]

Yeah its
Weird
For what seems like a simple ability
It's basically 'one dude can forego shooting to let other dudes get a bonus shooting', right

[rocky shale]

It's wierd what abilities take crazy wording to make function how you'd expect

[wide veldt]

yeah

ough patient hunter makes me weirdly made lmao

*mad

im sure somebody out there somewhere likes uhhh

only getting any of your bonuses halfway through the battle

[raven meteor]

Also I find it funny that they get that faction rule and then like
Soooo many of their dudes have 4+ BS??
And like
Most Shooty Units have 3+ BS right

'do your faction gimmick to not have worse to hit as the ranged army'

Also wow the Emperor's Children army list is 🤏 if you can't mooch off CSM

[bright dove]

Correct.

So, this is kind of a side effect of how CSM used to be in Ye Olden Times.

Where they were just all one army.

You could indeed be running Khorne Berserkers alongside Plague Marines

[raven meteor]

It feels like you could have a middle ground where you have the core CSM faction, and then a small list of additional units from each of the traitor legions that you pick one of to 'attach' to your army
Like yknow
Like
Like
Like

Like
Like the Space Marines and their chapters,

I won't complain tho because if it did work that way Emperor's Children would have Dark Pacts as their faction rule, which I dislike

[jaunty dawn]

4+ bs who jump through hoops to get to 3+ isnt just tau

Its how guard work and how cults used to work with crossfire

Also how votann worked but maybe not anymore? Idk

[thin ibex]

what makes it strong for the tau is being able to spot with one guy and everyone gets the bonus when targeting that guy

[jaunty dawn]

And all the riders on spotting

[thin ibex]

votann used to get bonus to wound iirc, for dudes killing your dudes

yeah

based on detach usually

[jaunty dawn]

Like idk

[thin ibex]

like in patient hunter you get sus hits and ignores cover

in montka its lethals

Tau are a ranged army yes, but that doesn't mean we get all the best guns and all 2+ shooting

[jaunty dawn]

And on stealth suit its big buff

[thin ibex]

its more like we're a high mobility shooting army, so we have advantages via positioning and tricks

rather than just standing and shooting folks

[jaunty dawn]

Factions/units that get 3+ are meant to be very skilled basically

And elite

It is kinda weird tho that tau jump from 4+ to 2+ on commanders and nothing in betweeen

[thin ibex]

honestly surprised that crisis suits arent 3+s

also i think its funny that canonically fire caste have shit eyesight, so their tech is what brings them on par

[jaunty dawn]

Votann are still a buff 4+ they just changed the buff

Ad mech skitarii also work like this now

Since they stopped being bs3+

And got all horde-y

I think initial votann were also bs3+ and had dumb critical hits before critical hits

[junior summit]

Idk if that's necessarily true? Skits are 4+, Guard are 4+, Lootas are ~4+ sorta, Flash gits are 5+, necron warriors are 4+

[jaunty dawn]

Its just eldar necrons and marines basically

[rocky shale]

3+ is for elites like John warhammer and elves

[runic swallow]

Wait guard are 4+ now?

[junior summit]

even with necrons you need to go to elites to get 3+

[jaunty dawn]

Immortals are troops

[junior summit]

guard are 4+ with the asterisk of plentiful buffs

[jaunty dawn]

But yeah warriors are 4+

[raven meteor]

Maybe I'm just off base from the shooty armies I've seen being Marines, Sisters, and Eldar yeah

[jaunty dawn]

Oh yeah sisters too

Stormtroopers

[raven meteor]

But also the crisis suits also get 4+ shooting which just feels odd

[junior summit]

and in fairness if you want shooting buffs Tau have umpty billion shooting buffs

[jaunty dawn]

Also like if tau were better at hitting they would just get worse guns

And their thing is having the best guns

And like tbf eldar and marines thats like half the game

So its not exactly rare

But yeah

[rocky shale]

But yeah the average tau fire warrior is way more Some Dude than space marines or eldar

[junior summit]

even beyond shooter/spotter you get like, free +1 to wound, free AP1, free sustained hits 1, free 6" range etc

[rocky shale]

Better equipped than guard but not a like physiologically special

[junior summit]

experimental prototype cadre "I have one phase a round"

these amuse me greatly

[jaunty dawn]

Tyranids are 4+ mostly. Like you just had enhanced senses carnifex. And then they added a billion gunbeasts and gave them all 3+

[floral herald]

They do sorta have this, but it's a little weird

[jaunty dawn]

This was so much cooler in 9e when they got to use the army rule

And it make flamer rubrics busted

[atomic apex]

clearly they should let you use both on the same unit for double Hazardous

[raven meteor]

Yeahhhhhh
This makes me sad tho
I more want to poach a few CSM for Emperor's Children than the reverse

[jaunty dawn]

Cause csm got extra flamer hits as a like incidental bonus army rule

[wide veldt]

i mean i cant not play the experimental weapons cadre

[rocky shale]

Yeah imagine Thousand Sons with dark pacts instead of actual psyker stuff

[junior summit]

experimental prototype cadres is actually mostly crisis suits with flamers and fusion guns

the normal ranged stuff doesn't really benefit from an extra 6" but John Flamer really does

[atomic apex]

yeah it's great for flamers and fusion blasters

[floral herald]

Yeah the old let the galaxy burn was such a weird little ribbon rule

[atomic apex]

which it also has the enhancements for

[raven meteor]

I will likely still give EC a look
Keepers Of Secrets are also one of my fave daemons visually
lumpy hellbeast with sixty eyes? Weak
Aura farming nonbinary satyr with sword arms? powerful

[rocky shale]

Breachers

[wide veldt]

i just kinda hate the like

the detatchments that only work on specific rounds

[atomic apex]

benefits of Experimental is also the stratagems are very good

[floral herald]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/zrjpzrms/adepta-sororitas-battle-chaos-space-marines-over-a-long-forgotten-tomb-in-kill-team-shadowhunt/

wahoo

Finally good pics

[raven meteor]

Hasn't this article been around for a very long time now

[floral herald]

lol I got tricked by the subreddit

Someone posted stuff from it today

[raven meteor]

But also yes I am very excited to see a Proper SoB Killteam

[floral herald]

And I forgot

[raven meteor]

Rather than the Novitiates

[floral herald]

I am, in my defense, getting over the flu