Warhammer and Such

[mild glen]

"Trazonyus intent" is great

[untold swallow]

Trazynous

[stark cypress]

"Dammit, Trazyn! You gave us front seats to a coup!"

[untold swallow]

til Eisenhorn had a lightsaber

[stark cypress]

Probably was one of those force blades

Wait no, power sword

[untold swallow]

It was a power sword described as possessing a blade of pure energy

[hollow laurel]

that image gets us every time

[charred bridge]

This is my favorite Trazyn meme so far

[pale narwhal]

I should really read infinite and divine

[charred bridge]

Its good stuff

[cinder wraith]

got a terrain lot for 300$

[broken dew]

woah

[soft willow]

Honestly you got a hell of a deal if that's reasonably intact.

[pastel rampart]

One of those probably goes for $300 on the used market.

[soft willow]

Without any of the extra plastic terrain included there, or the other odds and ends.

[pastel rampart]

I got an FDM printer coming in the mail so this is a reminder to look around for STLs to print stuff like that out.

[broken dew]

nice

been considering seeing if i can't print some parts i found oversized on my dads FDM printer and make an oversized mini

[pastel rampart]

If the printer can get some fine lines it's perfect for printing out vehicles and dreadnoughts.

Though you'd probably want to use a resin printer for really fine details like guns and such, since FDM kind of struggles to make those look sharp. Can get damn close though, so if it's like...I duno, a big-ass cannon barrel then it's fine on that.

[broken dew]

mhm

might see if i can't do a dread

[vital barn]

anyway, sparing General - the HH Darkmech were in fact built different, apparently more so than the Loyalists because regular automata without leadership died a lot faster to Custodes

presumably daemonbots are harder to prep for since they don't have pre-loaded combat engrams

[broken dew]

yeah

plus you can fill them with daemons

[vital barn]

need to have either a daemon in there or a techpriest on hand to boost them up with Cybertheurgy

which is actually reflected on the tabletop, you can get the most elite regular automata to WS5, same as a custodian, but only by having a techpriest actively buffing them

[broken dew]

neat

trying to decide what to do art of next for the chapter that i'm making, either working on some examples of armors they use aside from Mark X Tacticus, or doing one of the Dreadnoughts

[vital barn]

give the dreadnought a fancy paint job

they're mostly big flat surfaces, it's a great place to go ham

[charred bridge]

I imagine basically having no research restrictions would give you a big edge over loyalists

[broken dew]

gonna do Siegfrid if anything so he'll be wearing parts of a Heldrake

[charred bridge]

Eg Tau

[vital barn]

they do also blow themselves up a lot but we only see the armies fielded by the darkmech that don't get eaten by warpstuff

high risk high reward

[charred bridge]

Why Skaven best faction in fantasy

[vital barn]

the books do distinguish between "we got all the risky engrams out of the box and now our regular automata are fucked up in the head and predatory" and outright "we daemon engine now"

the former route seems to work surprisingly well

also kind of hard to distinguish between a Vorax hopped up on heretech Frenzon and a regular Vorax, so not sure why they were proscribed, but the Mech is nothing if not strict

[charred bridge]

I never thought to look this up but does the daemon in a Daemon engine just go back to the warp if the engine is destroyed

[broken dew]

Was considering if i should give the chapter master some more details

[vital barn]

usually, yes

[broken dew]

He looks good if a bit bare

[vital barn]

the one in the darkmech attack planetoid manages to rip open a warp portal and dump a bunch of bloodletters on its attackers, but that one was especially huge, regular daemon engines just explode and vanish

[charred bridge]

Are there ones that use like greater daemons

[vital barn]

I think that probably works as is, there's a lot less empty space on real models, but you could maybe put some inscriptions on the greaves

[vital barn]

not that I know of, I think most really big daemon engines are less powerful than a straight up bloodthirster anyway

since you trade controllability for power, like daemonhosts

[broken dew]

fair nuff

[vital barn]

so the process of getting the bloodthirster into the tin can is probably not particularly feasible

[broken dew]

i'm quite fond of how the combination of Cataphractii shoulders and helmet with the Tartaros armor ended up looking

[charred bridge]

I'm wondering if anything stops say a Daemon primarch from being put into a Daemon engine besides you will be cut down before you could unwillingly put them into an engine

[broken dew]

we're going to stuff Angron inside the infinite pain machine 9million as the reactor

surely nothing will go wrong

[charred bridge]

Dorn would like to know the location of the infinite pain machine 9 million, he's going to put his hand in it

[broken dew]

lmao

[vital barn]

compressing magnus down real small and getting him to solve chess problems for me

[broken dew]

wow this artwork is not kind to the Contemptor pattern 😭

this guy didn't even get a line of sight at all

[charred bridge]

Guy never did leg day

[vital barn]

we are reaching Deredeo levels of egg-shaped dread

[broken dew]

zero degrees of vision

[vital barn]

Emperor's Children taunting them from across the battlefield: "EGGG BOYYY"

[broken dew]

they didn't even gfive this guy a fucking drednought head

bro is still wearing his normal power armor helmet

[untold swallow]

but can Magnus beat IBM Watson

[charred bridge]

Is the spits supposed to be for vision, if so why keep part of your head exposed like that. This is proper OG 40k ridiculous

[broken dew]

i genuinely have no idea what the plan was

[charred bridge]

ChatGPT (chat great primarch of tzeench): why are there no wolves on fenris

[vital barn]

ah, this makes sense, they shoot the big spears underarm

although the art versions have less gargantuan triggers

[broken dew]

hah

the White Scars dread has the hair tuft thing

[vital barn]

also damn, that is an almost excessive number of custodes

the Orks must be having a great time

[broken dew]

yeah that is a pattently absurd number of custodes

[desert jay]

I think once you’re at Greater Daemon or Daemon Primarch level you might be able to make a huge ass warship or titan into a daemon engine

[charred bridge]

The one guy with a tower shield not protecting anyone but themselves is peak

[broken dew]

the Orks will have great fun

also putting a Custode into a Dreadnought feels kinda like cheating

[vital barn]

I count 42 custodes, although there are probably more between the front line and the tiny spears 30m in the back

[charred bridge]

That Custodes isn't protecting anyone else the others are standing to the side of them

[broken dew]

man i love Custodes lore

[vital barn]

it is mentioned they fight as individual blenders that perfectly avoid doubling up on targets or getting in each others way rather than actually doing combo attacks, this seems to fit

[charred bridge]

Custodes dreadnoughts? Isn't there dealio if they have a major injury that reduces their performance they kinda just retire

[broken dew]

This guy apparently got dreadnoughted for getting hit with molecular dissolution venom and his flesh literally started melting inside his armor

he apparently fought for 18 more hours while this was happening

[vital barn]

they can get dreadnoughtified

[charred bridge]

Custodes really took kill stealing personally

[broken dew]

and then flew a ship alongside Sanguinius of all people while literally having melted for 18 hours straight

and got put in a Telemon for his troubles

[vital barn]

apparently each of those Telemon dreads contains a plate made by the Emperor himself, so there might well be less Telemons than there are Primarchs

[broken dew]

18 hours of flesh melting sounds horrid

[vital barn]

it's highly likely that I've personally killed more telemons on the tabletop than actually exist

[broken dew]

bro was pattently unbothered

[charred bridge]

Emperor needed hobbies

Like the shards of the Emperor's armor in war gear, probably had a large closet of spares

Or they homeopathy'd the Emperor's armor

Not wargear apparently, badges

[untold swallow]

Ah the Crux Terminatus

[vital barn]

I still think that part is a myth

[untold swallow]

The concept is cool but also there is no fucking way each crux has a piece of Big E's armor

Ye

There have been millions of bearers of the Crux throughout the millenia

[vital barn]

also because Emps giving extremely precise directions about what is to be done with his armour in the very short period of time between him being very stabbed and him going on the Throne seems out of character

[floral herald]

They just ground up the armor really finely

[charred bridge]

I want to believe the astartes did homeopathic methods, dilute piece of Emperor's armor

[vital barn]

especially "hey, give it to your terminators, the basically unremarkable kind of elite troop"

[untold swallow]

They used holy water rules and put Big E's armor material into a functionally infinite batch of ceramite

[charred bridge]

Or the holy water one, if a piece of metal slag has 51% emp's armor then the whole thing is emp's armor

[untold swallow]

hehehehehe

[charred bridge]

Infinite emp's armor

[untold swallow]

you gotta be quicker than that

[charred bridge]

Sometimes reality is stranger than fiction

[desert jay]

Wait aren't there also HH-era terminators? From before Emps got stabbed?

[main pagoda]

yes

tho they didnt have the crux

[broken dew]

holy water rules

[desert jay]

Gotcha

[broken dew]

if you put a piece of the emperors armor into some melted metals or however you make power armor, you make more emperor armor

[desert jay]

Also apparently by some accounts only Termie Captians get the crux

[broken dew]

oh i got ninja'd way before i responded damn

[vital barn]

there are approximately seven billion of them

every single Legion has at least one, often two special terminator elite formations on top of all the normal ones

apart from the Word Bearers who only form theirs in the Heresy when they start sticking daemons in terminator armour

[desert jay]

And one book from 2013 says that only eventually some cruxes got a shard in them, while all GK cruxes have a shard

[broken dew]

i think i'm gonna draw my contemptor guy now then maybe do a cataphract

definitely going to greeble Siegfrid up

perhaps have his armor covered in murals

rather ironically i've ended up using a lot of Thousand Sons reference images for the art so far

[broken dew]

forgor Heldrakes are enormous

[charred bridge]

My reaction in SM2, I thought they were like jet sized

[floral herald]

Jets are enormous

[charred bridge]

The Heldrake is bigger

Looks bigger than a 747 in SM2

[broken dew]

I think Siegfrid will have to wear like

a tiny talon bit

yeah like one of these fucking pieces

[floral herald]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/gdf3xzwi/world-championships-of-warhammer-balance-updates/

Balance stuff!

[broken dew]

we balancing it

[floral herald]

https://assets.warhammer-community.com/eng_kill_team_wcw_rules_updates-xtziqwmxoj-gtbs3es80z.pdf

Actual kill team stuff

[broken dew]

the wing bits look pretty cool llike this actually

[floral herald]

We already went over most of this from the leaks

[broken dew]

anything in particular that is new and interesting

[floral herald]

This is nice

[broken dew]

yeah that sounds nice

[floral herald]

Nice little buff for Wrekas

Wait this whips

Changes the equipment from chopped to serving or whatever

(Used to be +1 wounds)

[deft crest]

So 4+ saves insteada 5 mm

Oh

Oh no its 4 to 3

[finite compass]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/nie3ma9d/the-compatibility-matrix-combine-your-kits-to-make-countless-units-in-the-horus-heresy/

It's almost like this is the EXACT SAME FUCKING THING YOU DID FOR EVERY OTHER FUCKING GAMELINE FOR TWENTY GODDAMN YEARS until you decided that single-pose models could somehow make you more money

apologies, this just made me headdesk

[jaunty dawn]

this matrix feels kinda pointless

it's just saying jump pack squads and jetbike squads can't take specials and heavies in 3e

which I'm not sure if that's even strictly true for all options

but also like. a lot of ranges are already this intercompatible still they just don't give you instructions to do it

[vital barn]

jetbikes have integrated heavy weapons already

[jaunty dawn]

like all the new kroot models have a standardised arm mounting and head

apart from a few exceptions like easy-build and some characters primaris you can swap arms and heads etc

chaos space marines are the same

and with like the barest amount of conversion work most of those exceptions go away too

[vital barn]

and Destroyer squads can take rad missile launchers while jump packing

[jaunty dawn]

the only thing that has completely gone away is legs and bodies being seperate, which is a unfortunate consequence of that making models look really bad

[jaunty dawn]

and even in horus heresy they tell you need to match specific arms to specific bodies which is also just straight up untrue

[broken dew]

doest that beaky have fucking toes sculpted into his armor

[jaunty dawn]

they all do (the horus heresy reboot design for mk6)

its uh

[upper bluff]

You got a problem with the Marine Grippers

[jaunty dawn]

a reference to the original beaky design

[upper bluff]

It's for intimidation and balance

[broken dew]

huh

i have never seen a space marine with the grippers molded into the shoes before

[floral herald]

Got the piggies out

[broken dew]

😭

[upper bluff]

All 8 of them

Or 10?

[floral herald]

Got the piggggggggggies out

[jaunty dawn]

weirdly this artificer mk6 dude doesn't have toes

[upper bluff]

Handcrafted the toes out of the armor smh

[jaunty dawn]

and neither does the other one

ooh

zephon has toes on his robot foot

he's technically pre-boot too

[upper bluff]

This just further confirms that the number of toes decides rank. Fewer toes means higher standing

[jaunty dawn]

yeah maybe

oh how the imperium has fallen... they don't even know the toe significance...

[upper bluff]

The Sanguinor is so humble

[valid brook]

Pretty sure there were some 4e/5e metals with Mk6 Grippers

[upper bluff]

Truly proof of its divinity

[jaunty dawn]

sanguinor toes are more of a blangel thing tbf I just wanted to be a lil silly

[charred bridge]

The older horrors model

[bright dove]

The goobers!

[upper bluff]

They're so good

[jaunty dawn]

slimers

that era of demon model was just so gooddd

its like

[charred bridge]

Before GW did the whole generic modular, or rather didnt do it in the most boring one pose way

[jaunty dawn]

peak hand sculpted

[broken dew]

tbf i can buy that the sanguinor has his toes out

[jaunty dawn]

and then they were replaced by the kinda overdone initial 3d ones

[broken dew]

he has a sculpted face helmet

[jaunty dawn]

and it was such a downgrade

[charred bridge]

I think these are the latest models

[jaunty dawn]

for like daemonettes too

[broken dew]

he's got sculpted armor abs

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

[broken dew]

him having his grippers out is not strange

[charred bridge]

Which is like, damn pink blob is such a downgrade

[floral herald]

They’re even older but I dig the old Bloodletters too

[charred bridge]

I like the sentinel cause the pilot's head is entirely unprotected except for a helmet, but the super early model is like peak jank, they just mounted a gun on the legs of a power lifter

[floral herald]

They’re so fucked up

[charred bridge]

The curse of success and money

Streamlining models to handle growing bigger

[broken dew]

freaky ass lads

all of their proportions are just l o n g

[pine matrix]

I will say this picture of a Emp Children with a facial scar did activate my brain a bit, being made "ugly" in a legion that prioritises aesthetics...

[broken dew]

yeah i was gonna say when i saw the picture

someone from the Emprerors Children with a facial scar like that...

[stark cypress]

So, John Warhammer embracing kitbashing again?

[pastel rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/inflatable-tube-man-air-dancer-wind-balloon-air-puppet-gif-24875468

[broken dew]

found another eggnought

also apparently this is supposed to be a Contemptor somehow

Sons of Horus traitor Contemptor

[cinder wraith]

300$ for a box full of terrain

fortress of redemption goes for 300$ on ebay iirc

so its worth it

[broken dew]

damn

nice

yeah this is lookin pretty good

[pine matrix]

Guess that's why he'd be in a destroyer squad, "you're too uggo, go fight until you die"

[broken dew]

Lmao

Yeah

[pine matrix]

Love marines who don't fit into their Primarch's vision, but are still genetically hard wired to want their approval

[broken dew]

Terribly tragic stuff

[charred bridge]

World Eaters

[broken dew]

yeah

that was what i was thinking of

[past sphinx]

Sigismund

[broken dew]

tomorrow shall be a time for much drawing

[pine matrix]

That's why they're my fave :)

Though I think World Eaters are a bit different in that Angron is so thoroughly fucked up he's practically impossible to please. There's a different flavour of approval seeking when it comes to Iron Warriors or the Emps Children and the like, conceivably you could win Pert or Fulgrim's approval and losing their esteem is a lot more of a considered failure.

[charred bridge]

Yea I think it was shortly before they developed working butchers nails for astartes that they kinda realized he's an ass thats been needlessly throwing lives away

[pine matrix]

Like they have impossible standards but at least they have them, Angron's desires are "be dead with my brothers and sisters"

[charred bridge]

But by then the butcher's nails were sort of mandatory cause they couldn't do what Angron wanted with such few numbers unless they had them

[pine matrix]

Yeah exactly

[charred bridge]

You either got them or died on the battlefield fighting a nearly impossible fight

[broken dew]

RIP to all War Hound Librarians

[pine matrix]

Last hail mary to try and get anywhere closer to him and gain his esteem and it didn't even work

[charred bridge]

I wish there was like a ps ker that survived the nails

And just became the most fucked up psyker even by psyker scales

[charred bridge]

Yea Kharn didn't earn respect, he just earned I'm not going to kill you if you talk to me

Which he killed a bunch for relaying a message to him.

[pine matrix]

Lucky, lucky Kharn

[broken dew]

Feeding Angron messengers

[charred bridge]

Really was that meme lol

[charred bridge]

No one could earn his esteem for he had none to give, not even for himself.

[desert jay]

Time to just shuffle important messages under the door to his quarters

[broken dew]

Lmao

They have to purpose build a gap under Angrons door as a sort of impromptu mail chute

[pine matrix]

Shoulda just left him in a sealed bulkhead and dropped him on planets to murder his way through them, before scooping him up again

[untold swallow]

wrath & glory is a deeply silly system

These talents stack lmao

[charred bridge]

I think the issue was Angron was refusing to read or listen to messages on holo or written

Thats why his sons had to relay it, cause he can't ignore a message someone is saying i guess.

[broken dew]

He ignored it by killing the messenger

[charred bridge]

They had to be fast with their words lol

Imagine the equivalent of an email chain where it starts and ends with like 3 emails pleasantries before getting to the actual subject.

Some Imperial Fist probably killed like 10 guys per chain

One of those messages iirc was from the Emp's who said "stop killing your sons they're valuable". You'd think an in person visit would work better

[vital barn]

I considered those, but I don't believe either of my likely weapons have BLADE

[untold swallow]

blade is a weirdly restricted tag

[vital barn]

nope, no Blade tag on any of this lot

[untold swallow]

Yeah blade is basically only for unpowered, bladed weapons

[vital barn]

although if I could find a high-base-damage Blade/Parry weapon it would work totally fine, the actual stats of my secondary weapon are mostly irrelevant because I'm wiring it up for Electroleech and draining people instead

[untold swallow]

Which is probably why Blademaster hooks into parry since basically every 'sword' has parry

[vital barn]

Force Swords don't even have Blade, damn

[untold swallow]

tho fun fact with both these talents you are now able to block bullets with a combat knife

[vital barn]

"death cult power blades": not a blade

[untold swallow]

lmao yep

But they have parry so the second part of the talent works

Which is really the meat of it anywho

[vital barn]

it needs Power Field or Force, so I don't think you can

[untold swallow]

Riiiiight

I can with my force sword

[brittle salmon]

Well, as long as it already has Parry you don't need Blade

[untold swallow]

also technically with my combat knife cuz I have found a way to turn it into a force weapon

[brittle salmon]

Most swords have parry

[untold swallow]

cough

[vital barn]

I'm trying to figure out what weapon even qualifies for PF/Force + Parry + Blade

[brittle salmon]

It doesn't need to be Blade keyworded if it has Parry already

[untold swallow]

Ye

[brittle salmon]

Is what I'm saying

[vital barn]

Oh, I follow now, yeah

hmm, seems like none of the cool ecclesiarchy weapons I could have looted for the vague inkling of a build I have have Power Field or Force

although Blademaster works on the cool spear

[untold swallow]

tf ecclesiarchy weapons is an arcuitor looking at?

[vital barn]

Spear of the Faithful, mostly, because I was pondering variants on the traditional Electroleech Staff and came up with the idea of wiring up a conventional polearm with the same circuits

and I have like two more arms than I need

also spears are cool

[untold swallow]

how many arms do you have

[vital barn]

currently two, but I haven't rolled requisition yet, which is likely to give me a third, and then I might get an extra one with a mechadendrite later

[untold swallow]

lol

[vital barn]

Blademaster might be a good shout honestly, if I go with the slightly odd route of "start with Spear of the Faithful, build my masterwork electroleech circuits into it at the cost of all of my money, get Synch Attack later"

no bouncing bullets, but I have Counter-Attack already, I am good at swords

what is the list of Parry + Power Field weapons

Death Cult blades, Power Swords, Eldar Void Sabres, looks like

[untold swallow]

Oh the transonic weps have Blade

[brittle salmon]

Blessed Blades too

[stark cypress]

Yes-yes, done-done with paint-make.

[untold swallow]

Sentinel Blades as well but like

Good luck

Fucking getting one

[untold swallow]

yesyes goodgood

[vital barn]

look, if I locate a Custode I'm beating him up for his armour, not his weapon

going Lukas Chrom Mode

[untold swallow]

Do you want me to throw one of the Ten-Thousand at you?

[stark cypress]

Have-have more-more to prime-ready.

30-30

[vital barn]

based on the listed stats in the homebrew book it would be surprisingly close, but not yet, no

I am just riffing

the Transonic Blade is an odd beast, but I think regular power sword would be the option I'd pick if I was going to spend 10000 XP on talents and get Favoured Weapon + Synch Strike + Blademaster + Deflect

whch would be my first 60xp spoken for out the gate on top of what I've already got

"two-handed sword that drains all your bioelectricity" is pretty neat to have as a signature weapon, granted

[untold swallow]

lmao

[stark cypress]

Look I know Warhammer has the skaven

But...maybe there should be evil hamsters? Like this guy?

https://tenor.com/view/evil-hamster-hide-peek-cute-gif-17376715

[charred bridge]

New Skaven

[stark cypress]

Death Mice

[floral herald]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/nyot9y3m/warhammer-art-through-the-years-chaos-space-marines/

Ough I’m being marketed to

[main pagoda]

thats just thanquel

[stark cypress]

Who the hell is Thanquel!?

[bright dove]

STORM OF IRON STORM OF IRON STORM OF IRON

[stark cypress]

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT

[floral herald]

Thanquol when he’s holding down R

[past sphinx]

now this is a little more punk rock

[finite compass]

What's the legion/warband?

[past sphinx]

nightlords raiders!

they kind of worship the fellblade i think, it started off as a joke on terra about the "true god of the battlefield" but it hasnt failed to bring victory in 10,000 years

got a real fuck ugly and mean thing for a machine spirit

[jaunty dawn]

Fuck yee

[main pagoda]

https://tenor.com/view/minor-spelling-mistake-gif-21179057

[hollow laurel]

Double Vanquisher Cannon?

Atlas "Genghis good" Grove ↩️

[(click to see attachment)](#1161696278640594954 message)

[past sphinx]

negative, double accelerator cannon

its a vaccum train

for bullets

[hollow laurel]

Understandable.

[untold swallow]

I get to play Deathwatch tomorrow

And I just barely won an honor duel against my squad lead cuz he called me a Witch in church and I said 'all right bitch let's go'

[charred bridge]

Man what a badass of a dreadnought, he just throws a whole statue at a heldrake

[sour sequoia]

Battle ready achieved

Tourney begins at 9am. It is 2am

But I have once again painted 50 baldoids in like 2 weeks

[mild glen]

Huzzah!

Today (yesterday, technically) I told the wife that my dumb nickname for my barrow Knights was "bony pony".
As in "I'm going to b go ahead and just sneak this bony pony into your rear flank"
She cringed visibly.

I assume this means I'm doing both Marriage and Warhammer in the optimal fashion

[broken dew]

holy shit just looked up references for the size of Saturnine dreads

they are enormous

[brittle salmon]

yes

[broken dew]

also found a Heldrake 3d print and a Contemptor 3d print, and assuming they are both relatively to scale

the part of the Heldrake i picked as the part to stick onto Siegfrid should actually be in pretty decent scale

[sour sequoia]

That is a 100mm base they are Lord of Change sized

The kit is also like 230 fucking pieces lmao

[broken dew]

lmao

and yeah holy fuck they are enormous

[sour sequoia]

People have been paying me to build their saturnine boxes because of it

[broken dew]

lol

[broken dew]

no fucking clue what any of the context is behind such an image but it made me laugh really hard

[marsh tree]

Hear me out:
Kill Team: Goofy Little Guys
A kill team including dogs, cherubim, squigs, plasmacytes, and all the other small critters from other kill teams

[floral herald]

That’d be funny

Probably not great

But funny

Also speaking of kill team, had another game today

Deathwatch (me) vs Wrekas

Messy lethal game and I wound up losing 13-14

Which is exciting I’ve never had Tomb World go that close

It was also a weird game because all the rolls were not that good

Except the Tankhammer Guy rolling damage vs himself

[marsh tree]

What’s wrong with horde KTs?

[floral herald]

Horde KTs have a lot more firepower and action freedom than pets

A lot of the little guys suck offensively

[marsh tree]

Ah

[desert jay]

Unless you can take like 5 of the little bomb crawlers

That might clear the field enough to play objectives and such

[jaunty dawn]

14 kroot hounds on a mission about picking up objectives

[floral herald]

Crit op: fetch

All bomb squigs would be funny

[broken dew]

bomb squig army

gonna run 2000 points of nothing but bomb squigs for the worst army comp of all time

[charred bridge]

Run 250 kroot hounds, you will not regret running 250 kroot hounds

[broken dew]

billions must explode

[desert jay]

Still amused this is still less than the number of guardsmen you can legally take

In 10e army building restrictions, even

[broken dew]

give me the largets number of models possible in an army

[desert jay]

I think it might actually be guard, I'd have to check current points for the current max

[thin ibex]

its mostly that they have multi model HQs and have 20 man battle lines

[floral herald]

It's almost always been guard throughout 40k's history

[thin ibex]

multiple 20 man battle lines

[desert jay]

It's that they have three 20 man battlelines at a low PPM

[floral herald]

I think peak model count was back when guard could spam troops platoons of 50x conscripts

[rocky shale]

Nids might be close this edition

[floral herald]

and you could have about 90 models a troops slot

[thin ibex]

i remember making long lines of conscripts back to a single commissar

and they just made the map a swamp

[charred bridge]

Guardsman are basically 40k skaven but with less humor

[broken dew]

making the most optimized ppm army of all time to show my opponents the true meaning of horde armies

[floral herald]

(for an about 600 model army, albeit you started to run into points limits)

[desert jay]

Okay Guard points haven't changed since I made this list, so it's one 5-man command squad, six 20-man Catachans, six 20-man Cadians, six 10-man Kriegers, and one 10-man Aquilons

[tired cairn]

I'm sure everyone would have fun playing a game with that list

[desert jay]

(You can drop the 10 Aquilons to bump a Krieg squad from 10 to 20, but I figured deep strikers would be handy)

[broken dew]

it will be the most fun

hundreds of dice will roll

[tired cairn]

I think a swarm Tyranids list had as part of its title something along the lines of "I won't have any more fun than you will"

[floral herald]

Tyranids swarm identity has more been respawning units rather than huge deployments which is kinda funny

[broken dew]

if i ever did something like this utility would be the very last consideration

[tired cairn]

RIP endless swarm. No longer endless

[rocky shale]

This is max nids

Winged Tyranid Prime (65pts): Warlord, Prime talons

10x Gargoyles (85pts)
20x Hormagaunts (130pts)
20x Hormagaunts (130pts)
20x Hormagaunts (130pts)
20x Hormagaunts (130pts)
20x Hormagaunts (130pts)
20x Hormagaunts (130pts)
20x Termagants (120pts)
20x Termagants (120pts)
20x Termagants (120pts)
20x Termagants (120pts)
20x Termagants (120pts)
20x Termagants (120pts)

5x Genestealers (75pts)
22x Neurogaunts (90pts)
22x Neurogaunts (90pts)
22x Neurogaunts (90pts)

[tired cairn]

I think it's hypothetically a good way to represent "endless numbers" without needing lots of models

[desert jay]

It was exactly the last consideration, if dropping the 10 Aquilons let me fit in 11 other models I would've

[floral herald]

Yeah and it's sorta a tyranid "thing"

That all their stuff is fungible meat

So it's good ludonarrative stuff

Imperial Guard flirted with it though

There was the "send in the next wave" special character in 5e

[rocky shale]

332 nids

[tired cairn]

The Deathguard's "you get poxwalkers ever battle phase or do" would have been a lot better for the tyranid swarm detachment than the movement tech imo

[desert jay]

Yeah a bunch of people were disappointed that the Unending Swarm detachment was not actually unending

[tired cairn]

It didn't help it caught the reuse-a-unit strat nerf despite merely being ok

[broken dew]

fair nuff

[floral herald]

This is also why imperial guard almost always win the max model count off

[tired cairn]

It is a bit funny to me that the imperial guard is the swarmiest army

[rocky shale]

Because neurogaunts are so cheap, nids do beat out guard on model count by just a bit

By like 10 models

[broken dew]

bring on the nids

how many total nids is that

[floral herald]

132 models per force org slot

[rocky shale]

322

[jaunty dawn]

Tyranids and guard constantly fighting over most models

[rocky shale]

I posted the list above

[broken dew]

322 is a lot of nids

[desert jay]

Also a few battleline squads got pt nerfs, Guard used to hit 325 335 pre-codex

[floral herald]

792 models +mandatory HQ

[tired cairn]

That is too many models. Is that without considering points?

[floral herald]

It's just FOC limits yeah

(older equivalent to the rule of 3/6)

[broken dew]

yeah i think if you show up with 300+ models nobody is going to be having fun

[desert jay]

Hope you brought movement trays

[floral herald]

A Maximum Platoon is 850 points before upgrades though lol

So you can't fit 3 into an Ard Boys sized army

[rocky shale]

I think max gargoyle would be worse than just max gaunts

In terms of movement pain

120 gargoyles would take up so much space

[desert jay]

Gargoyes and Genestealers

[rocky shale]

The gargoyle wings make them like 2-3x larger than the bases

[tired cairn]

And they get to move after shooting. And if you are in that one detachment, they get to move after being shot at

(which used to be unlimited times but now it's just once a... phase?)

[desert jay]

Ye, and Genestealers overhang the bases too, they were even worse when they were on 25mm ones

[tired cairn]

They also basically behave like the monkeys from barrels of monkeys in how they grab on to each other

[vital barn]

do Guard not have Platoons any longer either?

so what, you get sixty guardsmen max?

ah, no, they go to 20

still, a depressing downgrade considering they don't get Conscripts either

or Vets for that matter

how the mighty have fallen

[desert jay]

Conscripts and Vets died an edition ago to "no official kit"-osis

[vital barn]

I was of the understanding that the official kit for Veteran Guardsmen and Conscript Guardsmen was the Guardsmen box

but apparently that's a bridge too far

[floral herald]

They also come in multiple stackable varieties

[vital barn]

just taking iconic unit after iconic unit out back with a shotgun

[desert jay]

Generic infantry squad (and corresponding kit) also went away

[floral herald]

The new cadian box makes really good vets imo

[vital barn]

well, only kind of, they still sell Cadians and Cadians have always been Generic Guardsmen too

[tired cairn]

I'm not sure if they needed 3 slight variations of the same unit?

[desert jay]

In 9e (and index 10e) the generic Infantry Squad had to be built with Cadian (or other) kits, while Cadians also had their own datasheet

[vital barn]

Vets were a whole other list archetype, they were great

[tired cairn]

Though maybe they could have had more interesting variations

[vital barn]

staple for Armageddon Steel Legion and Elysians

Conscripts were for fun Vostroyan antics and screening

[tired cairn]

Or maybe they actually just needed to get rid of the regular version, ha

[desert jay]

Yeah... though vets did get replaced by Kasrkin (literally Cadian vets) and Tempestus Scions

[vital barn]

like, sure, you can keep pruning those but it's a bit like saying "look, I know you don't have Sternguard, Vanguard, Scouts or Black Templars neophyte/marine combined squads any longer, but look, Tac Squads and Victrix Guard still exist!"

[tired cairn]

So there kind of isn't conscripts equivalent anymore?

[vital barn]

these are not the same units

Kasrkin are stormtrooper variants with hotshots and carapace

vets are BS4 guardsmen with assorted toys

or I suppose BS3+ now

[desert jay]

True

[tired cairn]

The SM range is definitely incredibly bloated and could use pruning, ha

[desert jay]

There's no "like normal squads, but slightly better/worse" anymore

[floral herald]

Yeah there used to be so many of em it was sort of lame

Bloodbrides and Trueborn mostly

[vital barn]

I disagree, I really like having choices of line infantry

makes the armies so much less identikit

[floral herald]

Mostly Trueborn because they were such pure ass to buy

[vital barn]

OK, yeah, trueborn sucked but that was due to the wonders of finding dark eldar special weapons

rather than because trueborn were in any way bad to have around

[floral herald]

Yeah it was mostly trying to source 4 blasters

[vital barn]

also not sure we can accuse the Dark Eldar of a bloated and overly lengthy list of units

poor bastards

[tired cairn]

Well, I guess now you get Cadians and Death Korps (and I guess technically Catachans) as choices

[desert jay]

Yeah, instead of shitty guard and shiny guard as variation, you have jungle guard and trench guard

[tired cairn]

I think GW ostensibly wanted to move away from slight variants of units to have them be more distinct

[vital barn]

like, when I first got into 40k as a tiny nonsapient child I went "ooh, vets in planes with gene mods, I want to make D-99!" and then I never did because Vendettas were expensive

literally none of the units that made up the D-99 army list still exist in Guard

none

other than the generic Valkyrie

[desert jay]

D-99?

[vital barn]

Elysian guard regiment the Inquisition did fucked up nid-inspired genemodding to to make anti-tyranid specialists

I4 guardsmen with Preferred Enemy (something) that you got to swap out in exchange for various scrungly debuffs

very fun imperial armour entry

[tired cairn]

Jungle guard, trench guard and, uh guard guard

[floral herald]

I think it's most the fallout of the 1:1 correspondence between datasheets and existing kits

Which I think mostly exists cause GW is litigious and european IP law like that

[vital barn]

like, I will have money soon, I would build my boyhood dream army list on the side if it was remotely possible or playable on the tabletop in any way

[tired cairn]

Hmm, yeah I guess if they explicitly wanted 1:1 correspondence. But they didn't do that with tanks

[vital barn]

but even if flyers didn't suck, Elysian vets with gene mods and demo charges are simply not the same as Tempestus Scions

[tired cairn]

But I guess there isn't an obvious "this is vet or conscript" part of the sprue unlike the tanks

[desert jay]

GW doesn't mind multi-build kits as long as the builds are distinct

[floral herald]

It's mostly that "kitbash units" don't exist anymore

Like veteran squads or Trueborn or etc

Company Veterans

[charred bridge]

Counterplay, play Orks. I win by having fun rolling barrels of dice.

[floral herald]

(but those guys sucked)

[charred bridge]

All of those collected ttrpg dice have a purpose now

[tired cairn]

That one lawsuit casts a long shadow on 40k

[vital barn]

the D-99 list used to be a very slight variant on the normal guard list, now none of their unique units exist and barely any of the generic units they were based on do either

[tired cairn]

The amount of dice isn't the problem

[floral herald]

There was a funny winning Tyranid swarm list a couple years ago

And people name their tournament lists

[desert jay]

The other thing is the shift of kits/datasheets having copyrightable names

[floral herald]

I forget the exact name of it but it was something akin to "Let Me Show You My Movement Phase :^)"

[desert jay]

"Catachan Jungle Fighters" is something they can claim as IP, "Jungle Fighters" is not

[tired cairn]

Having the names be Aeldari and Drukhari are more silly than game affecting at least

[vital barn]

the list:

Named xenos inquisitor - doesn't have rules, can use the generic version
Named guard captain - likewise, can be company commander

Vets, breaching charge demolition squad, flamer squad, sniper vet squad, Tauros, Vulture, Vendetta, sentry guns, cyclops demo vehicle - gone
Deepstriking sentinels - maybe?

all of these were like normal guard things that they just got slight points + stats variants on

it was Starship Troopers Terran Command: the list

[floral herald]

You can get a lot of functionally similar stuff with datasheets which exist now but not all of em

[desert jay]

So like Salvar Chem Dogs now has a better shot of getting a kit than "Conscript Squad"

[vital barn]

no vets, no breachers, no flamers, ratlings kinda but they don't get special weapons, no, no, no, no and no respectively

[floral herald]

EG demo charge squads via Engineers

[charred bridge]

If dice are rolled I have fun

[vital barn]

I see no demo charges, are they hiding somewhere?

[desert jay]

("Cadian Whiteshields", OTOH, would have an even better shot)

[floral herald]

It's their "remote mine" special rule

[charred bridge]

You don't play Orks to win, but to have fun

[floral herald]

They just blast a vehicle within 9" with mortals

[vital barn]

krieg engineers have the shotties but none of the big lads with the satchel charges

OK, that technically kind of works, although in practice you threw demo charges at terminators and similar instead

I guess you could kind of proxy for sentries with Field Ordnance

[floral herald]

And can stack it with free grenades for a bunch more mortals

But yeah it's just kinda similar in game effect not the same thing

[vital barn]

not the same bases and a lot larger, but it vaguely works

still, it's a list archetype that fully No Longer Exists

no more guard aircav

do Scions manage it in any way, or do they just have lots of Deep Strike?

[desert jay]

Sentinels I don't think have a deep strike option anywhere in 10e

[vital barn]

wahapedia says they just have deep strike

[desert jay]

Oh they do? I forgot that then

[vital barn]

oh no, I meant Scions

sentinels are strictly groundbound

and the Sky Talon no longer exists to fly in Leman Russes from reserves, not that anyone ever did that because flying vehicle transports that aren't the Stormraven have been meme units since before flyers existed

so no real loss there

[desert jay]

Yeah and there's also Aquilons which have an improved deep strike and are already a popular proxy for Elysians

[floral herald]

Aquilons are also the extra-dedicated paratrooper storm troopers

[vital barn]

ah, yeah, I did think their models were neat

[thin ibex]

They got them grav chutes that people think are jump packs

[vital barn]

still stormtroopers though

[floral herald]

Kill Team kit was here lol

[thin ibex]

The KT rules are weird for 40k acquillons, there's no good reason to ever bring the single pistol models

[vital barn]

the Elysian Classic is "ten dipshits drop out of a Valkyrie, throw four pie plates and then get a cool glamour shot on an objective before the Orks run clean over them"

which depended mostly on the Valk being a very serviceable gunship on top of a transport because the transportees were basically munitions

[floral herald]

Single pistol models?

I guess it's not mandatory for the leader yeah

[vital barn]

oh, there is one more survivor, the Cyclops Demo Vehicle still has a legacies sheet

and can still go inside the chimaera for cute nature documentary shots of tanklets

although it appears that it does approximately zero damage

[desert jay]

Damn I forgot the Tauros existed, it's so rad

[thin ibex]

Yeah, up to two models can replace their carbine with one pistol

[desert jay]

(I'm not a weird fan of light armor don't look at all my Cold War France research shut up)

[thin ibex]

I miss the guard buggies. My pet theory is they didn't want to have ork buggython and guard buggies co existing

[floral herald]

Ooooooh

I see what's going on here

[tired cairn]

That's such a weird thing to do

[charred bridge]

Does that tank carry another tank

[thin ibex]

The smaller thing is a bomb drone

[vital barn]

no, the tanklet carries magical party fireworks

[charred bridge]

Oh i see

[vital barn]

these days it is a 25pt d3 mortals, and as such basically completely useless

[charred bridge]

What guides the drone

[desert jay]

Yeah, Lexicanum even has an illustration of a Chaos Tauros Venator and it's very "are you sure that's not an Ork buggy?"

[vital barn]

but it used to have quite an impressive payload and a lot of variants on it

[thin ibex]

I think it's actual use in- universe is busting razor wire and other obstacles. In game it blows up anything

[vital barn]

Solar Auxilia could put battle cannon shells in there, demo cannons, incendiaries for light infantry, vortex bombs

[floral herald]

In the Kill Team the Precursor and Grenadier have a laspistol and some Other Stuff (they're super important operatives haha) but all of that is ignored in Bighammer

[vital barn]

great bit of kit

[floral herald]

So there's no point

[tired cairn]

Ah, that makes a lot sense

[vital barn]

the vortex bomb cyclops was like 140pts each and rather unstable

but this was Heresy, where everyone and their dog had a 1200pt primarch deathstar

so that was probably a reasonable points cost for S10 AP2 reroll invulns large blast with Instant Death

[floral herald]

Grenadier is your backup hot drop atomic bomber and also gets infinite grenades and the Precursor is playing assassin's creed in kill team

[thin ibex]

I sometimes wonder how the Primarchs survived when daot shit was all over the place, like vortex bombs

[tired cairn]

The servitor battleclade didn't bother at all at representing all the variants. Technically if you make a reasonable kill team it isn't a legal bighammer squad (but I can't imagine anyone would care about what you call the unusual weapons)

[tired cairn]

Warp-augmented plot armor?

[vital barn]

when you try to target a primarch with a weapon that can actually hurt them you just get the Dota 2 MEEP MORP

[thin ibex]

Were primarchs just using shonen will powering through all sorts of shit that would not only one shot them, but easily so

[valid brook]

I see we’ve been talking about my beloved D-99 in here

[vital barn]

my boys

[valid brook]

Unironically my kingdom for the fw Elysian kits to come back exactly as they were

[broken dew]

the emperors plot armor protects

[vital barn]

one gene-modded guard regiment, lightly chewed on by tyranids

[tired cairn]

(this is my preferred way to do it, they mostly did the same things for the raveners)

[floral herald]

Yeah the Raveners one was interesting

[vital barn]

I think the Imperial Armour list actually had a couple of units capped at 0-1 or 0-2 because the D-99 were one regiment and as such only had six sentinels left after the nids ate most of 'em

[tired cairn]

I kind of wished the raveners had the same attack line for both hyperadapted and regular for ease of rolling the whole squad at once, but w/e. They managed to have relatively few profiles while still covering the special bonuses, which was neat

[desert jay]

The one-shot regiments are a fun bit of lore, like Tanith First And Only is on that list too

[vital barn]

They got a bit power crept

[charred bridge]

SM2 Calgar who isnt even a primarch just walked through a 1000 sons sorcerer freezing time and walked into a warp gate alone and survived a long time there from his perspective until titus got him out

[floral herald]

A certain degree of it is just like this for Primarchs

[vital barn]

In the early heresy books they were scary but still mortal, Mortarion in full armour was recorded as being noticeably injured by a Predator plasma cannon, Corax by a lascannon, Gulliman would have died to or been severely injured by ten headhunters with bolters and power knives if the last one didn't stop to gloat

[broken dew]

the man facetanked that spell from the lord of change

[vital barn]

By the time of the siege of terra Sanguinius is one-shotting battle titans in side scenes

[floral herald]

But also yeah their power levels are super elastic because they're actually warp-sentai-spirit loosely trapped in bioengineered meat

[vital barn]

they just get ramped up super hard in what I personally think is a somewhat lazy way

[charred bridge]

Having origins of like warp something pact between Emps and 4 chaos gods I imagine they literally have spiritual plot armor

[tired cairn]

🤔 a vortex grenade just shoves you into the warp right? A Primarch could probably crawl their way back out from that

[floral herald]

Sanguinius did have the benefit of powergaming foreseeing his own death

[charred bridge]

Physically not all that great but could anime style power up with warp shennigans

[floral herald]

It does but in a spectacularly violent way so you usually show in in the warp in little pieces

[tired cairn]

Oh, that's less than ideal

[vital barn]

he did not survive a titan, he literally flew up to it, poked it in the neck with his spear once and it died

[broken dew]

damn

[tired cairn]

I thought you just showed up in the warp and for 99% of things that means you get to do "I guess I die" lol

[charred bridge]

Worst case you survive and now are alive in the warp

[vital barn]

that's not foresight, that's powerscaling brain

[broken dew]

Sanginius absolutely styling

[vital barn]

also void shields not being real that time

[floral herald]

Which is to say, he had actual diegetic plot armor

[charred bridge]

Yea he knew he was destined to die on terra

[broken dew]

Sanguinius was metagaming the shit out of the knowledge of his own death

[charred bridge]

So he couldnt die elsewhere

[broken dew]

hit the "this isn't a cutscene and i don't see no Horus" and just full sent it

[tired cairn]

A person who foresees their own death, thinks that means they can do whatever, and then dies because they did something stupid not related to the foreseen event would be a good bit though

[vital barn]

at least half of that is Argel Tal

[charred bridge]

That's kind of how future visions is in most of 40k

[vital barn]

although he gets exact-wordsed by that prophecy

[charred bridge]

Emps sees futures but there are many and what happens now determines which will happen

Sanginious was just built different

His vision was just 100% correct

Curze also saw visions of the worst futures and made a lot of them not be true via murdertorture

[vital barn]

"Primarchs are so incredibly special that only other Primarchs can meaningfully harm them" is something I consider slightly deleterious to a world based on everyone's special boys having a series of sick fistfights

so I tend to lean away from "diegetic plot armour"

daemon primarchs get to respawn, which is much better for tabletop vibes

[tired cairn]

Is Curze alive in all these worst futures >.>

[floral herald]

It probably could have happened

[charred bridge]

Well he's dead so its plot armor but you have to die at this point

[floral herald]

But by the time it could have, and assuming it was entirely correct, Mr. Guinius was already just like, chatting with a ghost

[charred bridge]

No, this one where he gets killed by an assassin of the imperium was one of his worst timelines he knew could happen

[tired cairn]

Aww, that would have been a funny joke otherwise

[charred bridge]

It made him feel justified that his visions were correct and he didnt be an awful person for nothing but did help mankind avert a worse future

It moreso being right though

Opposite of sanguiy, curze saw the worst futures, while sango saw the best futures

[tired cairn]

Not super great "best futures" there

[broken dew]

yeah well, there were a lot of things going wrong

[charred bridge]

Curze was also super distraught at the end to the point of breaking cause Curze forsaw Sanguinius dying much sooner in the HH with as much certainty has Sanguinius saw himself dying on Terra and when he lived Curze doubted his visions and was crashing out over the idea he became for nothing and he just left so the already shakey night lords basically fully fractured at that point.

They're such great foils

[thin ibex]

It be like you could blast a Primarch with a world destruction beam and they'd tank it

[desert jay]

There's also the self-fulfilling version where doing stupid shit because you think you're invincible gets you mostly killed and you're nowhere near 100% post-recovery and that's what causes you to arrive at your foreseen end

[broken dew]

they are sturdy lads surely

[charred bridge]

Well Lorgar almost died to a titan hitting them with plasma guns

[broken dew]

he did just almost die

[charred bridge]

Angron however stopped a titan from stomping a downed Lorgar

[broken dew]

which is impressive

[charred bridge]

It has a single shot with a plasma cannon

[finite compass]

TBF, Rogal Dorn got wrecked by a horde of chaos cultists

But I agree

[vital barn]

yeah, in lore they can be fucked up by their Lessers, but "in-universe plot armour" has become something of a fandom discourse strain in recent years

mostly due to all the Siege of Terra stuff

[finite compass]

My flippant comparison is calling it the Marvelization of 40k. Where it's less about setting and more about Big Characters Doing Big Things

[tired cairn]

Yeah, but bringing up your own demise is a classic. I imagine the final words something like "I thought you said I would die gloriously in battle" "Yeah, but I didn't think you would pick up skydiving after I told you this"

[charred bridge]

My headcanon is as mysterious physical warp entites they are as fragile or sturdy as needed for whatever chaos purposes. I know reality is that different writers want it for story beats

[upper canopy]

The Lion found dead to 150 kroot warriors

[finite compass]

apart from the 'dorn lives' theories

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMV_H3Q8ubQ

[upper canopy]

"We just shot him" says Shaper Go'pek

[charred bridge]

I can hear in my head "magic pain glove"

[broken dew]

same

TTS has made me like Dorn more than i imagine i might if i read about him in a book

i do still think it would be funny if he returned somehow

[floral herald]

All of em probably will unless they don't sell

[broken dew]

i don't imagine Rogal Dorn would have such a problem

[upper canopy]

Ironically enough TTS made me like the primarchs less

[charred bridge]

Somehow, Gulliman returned again but as Primaris² Ultramarine Primarch

[desert jay]

There's two lists, one of very likely and one of... well when they run out of better options they might

[charred bridge]

TTS got me into 40k basically, albeit delayed a decade

[broken dew]

i imagine the alive ones are more likely

[desert jay]

The alive ones and also Vulkan

[broken dew]

TTS is definitely the main reason i caught an interest

[broken dew]

yeah

VULKAN LIVES stomp stomp and all that

Ferrus Manus 😔

[finite compass]

Admittedly I've been kicking around doing a Flesh Eaters squad or small force

Entirely due to Burger Sanguinius

[desert jay]

I think that Primarchservitor Manus would be a real interesting take

[finite compass]

https://tenor.com/view/heretic-burger-warhammer-sanguinius-gif-18201763

[broken dew]

Burger Sanguinius is peak

tbh

i fucking love that video

[charred bridge]

Dorn was soured on me after reading the Night Lord books and he just beats Curze when Curze has a horric vision of the entire HH amongst others. But really it was Fulgrim's fault has Curze told Fulgrim in confidentioality with his word then Fulgrim told only Dorn and Dorn nears beats Curze to actual death while he's having a vision induced panic attack for even suggesting primarchs could betray the Emps

[finite compass]

Also now every time there's Stupid Inhospitible Scifi Planet in everything

I just hear Corax on Catachan in my head

"WHY DO PEOPLE LIVE HERE!?"

[floral herald]

I don't think there's any of the primarchs I particularly like, though I liked some of the books they were in

[charred bridge]

Dorn's fits of anger were real bad

[finite compass]

IDK if I have a favorite primarch

I do have a few favorite primarch moments

[desert jay]

40K era Lion seems pretty cool

[finite compass]

Guilliman absolutely losing the formality when he realizes that Lorgar is behind Calth

[bright dove]

I have a favorite Primarch, and it is Petty Perty

[broken dew]

big fan of Guilliman waking up and locking the fuck in despite being really confused and having tons of questions, then getting ultra depressed when his questions are answered

[finite compass]

And contrariwise, it suddenly and very dramatically clicking for Lorgar that he was wrong, and up until that moment, Guilliman had never actually hated him.

[broken dew]

honestly i don't have a favourite as such

[charred bridge]

And he's still trying

[bright dove]

Perturabo is such a wonderful failure of a man.

[broken dew]

but Sanguinius gets the top spot by virtue of nobody else having it since i love the Lamenters

[broken dew]

that is a pretty good moment

[charred bridge]

Jagahatai Khan is my favorite even if its for boring reasons. He's kind of the most sensible and I vibe with him as if I had to be a part of any Chapter as an astartes it'd be White Scars. Mostly 30k White Scars, cool jet bikes and going fast

My issue with white scars, they dont got the best drip.

[broken dew]

i would not want to be a Lamenter

that would be horrid

[finite compass]

IDK, the mongol aesthetic is pretty cool

[charred bridge]

Yes it is

[broken dew]

my top three are Lamenters, Marines Malevolent and the Soul Drinkers

of which i would wish to be in none of their chapters

[charred bridge]

But White's Scar's aesthetic has like a weird mix of medieval knight and mongolian but its more knight than mongol

[finite compass]

for lesser-known chapters

[broken dew]

Lamenters because i would suffer horrible suffering or death, the Marines Malevolent because they are the fucking worst, and the Soul Drinkers because becoming a chaos corrupted renegade and then dying is not a fate i particularly would enjoy

[finite compass]

I like the Mortifactors

[charred bridge]

If they went all in on mongol aesthetic it'd be great but there are other chapters I like better aesthetics wise

[finite compass]

Granted, I'm also a grognard and utterly loathe the concept and aesthetic of Primaris, even though it's obvious now we're never getting rid of them

[broken dew]

i appreciate the Primaris for maybe giving my favourite lads a break

[desert jay]

I hate the concept but like the aesthetic of the infantry v_v

[broken dew]

Tacticus and Gravis armor looks pretty ok

i don't care much for Phobos

[desert jay]

But I also dislike Gladiators and Repulsors

[broken dew]

i don't much care for them either

[desert jay]

Storm Speeder I like the look of but could've just been a Land Speeder refresh

[upper canopy]

Angron is really the only primarch I like

Sanguinius kinda but I think only because of the fact that even he subverted the emperor because he didn't trust him

[charred bridge]

Angron and Curze are my top 2 for story, they got deeply tragic backstories

They feel like the most "grimdark" to me

[desert jay]

But then the Impulsor is so scrungly and distinct from the Rhino that I can't help but like it

[upper canopy]

I like Intercessors

And dislike most other units

Otherwise conceptually I dont mind primaris

[brittle salmon]

Why's that, if I might ask?

[charred bridge]

Angron is am empath who got put in the worst situation as a slave with butcher's nails and no autonomy and always loses his agency. Emps teleporting him out, Kharn trying to help, Lorgar daemon primarching him, and now a slave to Khorne.
Curze has a good becoming a monsteresque story

[upper canopy]

Because our show cemented the Fandom idea that the setting was just about them, and I struggled to fit xenos into the storyline in a way to give them their fair shake

And I had to read so much HH lore and I just

Cant care, because to me its not 40k if its just marines

Its boring and stale and lifeless

[broken dew]

fair enough

[brittle salmon]

That makes a lot sense

[upper canopy]

I feel complicit in a way of the primarchs coming back which is obviously extremely self fellating but like

[charred bridge]

In a way TTS was accurate to how 40k was once HH was released

[upper canopy]

Its a bad feeling and I cant shake it

[charred bridge]

TTS was like mostly all about HH's consequences

[hollow laurel]

Personally I love the GladLan and the RepEx.

Techskull ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) But I also dislike Gladiators and Repulsors

But that's because I like tonks.

[pale narwhal]

I'm growing on them but I definitely prefer the predator over the gladiator as a tank

they're not bad but I like the boxiness better

the HH predators are sick and will be what I get model wise probably (and rhinos)

[hollow laurel]

Oh, I haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate the Predator as a full-sized tank.

Some of the 30k weapons are improvements, but the Autocannon does not a battle tank make.

[desert jay]

I also like tonks and like the Predator and Land Raider more

Predator just needs better guns

[hollow laurel]

The Land Raider is a heavy IFV, IMO.

[desert jay]

So's the Repulsor

[hollow laurel]

The RepEx swings into tank territory though.

[desert jay]

But also when you have super soldiers in power armor as your mainline troops, why not have an infantry centric doctrine?

Which makes the Predator's role less an MBT and more a direct fire support vehicle

[vital barn]

I massively prefer basically all the non-Primaris vehicles and armour, but the Impulsor and the Gladiator are basically acceptable

[hollow laurel]

True, but the issue is less on the armour and more on the gun, like. The lascannons do not make a good tank-buster?

[vital barn]

the Impulsor I like quite a lot because "open-topped antigrav squad hauler" is a very sensible thing for space marines to have

[hollow laurel]

Not when the Guard has, you know, shit like the Vanquisher Cannon.

[vital barn]

the HH MBT comparison is interesting because all three major factions are rocking Predator-Equivalents

[hollow laurel]

Like, Predators make decent light tanks, but. But. prompting at Leman Russ.

However, around here.. Somewhere..

[vital barn]

the Astartes have predators but with a wide variety of better guns, the Mechanicum have the Krios which is a significantly faster and heavier-gunned unit but with fixed-forward main armament and only small sponsons

and the Solar Auxilia deploy the Russ and the Carnodon, the latter of which is basically an export-model Predator

the Astartes heavy tank is the Land Raider, and HH Land Raiders eat Russes for breakfast

laser destroyer sidearms go brrr

[hollow laurel]

However, the Sicaran exists.

[vital barn]

also that, yes

[hollow laurel]

And that thing is a tank.

[vital barn]

the Predator is more of a light tank, which it performs excellently at

the Krios is somewhere between light and medium, call it a British-style cavalry tank

[hollow laurel]

[vital barn]

one of my favourite units, especially in 30k warfare where being able to delete squads of heavy infantry with ease is extremely handy

[hollow laurel]

Wait, Krios?

[vital barn]

the Mechanicus standard battle tank

[hollow laurel]

..This is a 40k Strv 103.

[vital barn]

crew of one and looks extremely funky

but it's an exceptional machine

predator-grade armour, overland speed of a Land Speeder on good terrain

and easy to fix if you have the necessary supply chain and expertise because the "armour" is mostly energy projectors so you can just turn them off to get at the internals

[hollow laurel]

Mhm.

[floral herald]

its so weird looking I love it

[hollow laurel]

But yeah, the Sicaran is a proper tank.

[vital barn]

if you don't have the supplies and expertise it breaks down very rapidly, but that's why the Mechanicum field it

[main pagoda]

the pred is weirdly almost a scout tank

[vital barn]

that main gun is basically a burst-fire lascannon

swaps out for a B-movie alien attack death ray that melts marines with ease

[hollow laurel]

Anyway, that's my bitching over.

[thin ibex]

I feel like there's a problem of like... scale. Cause the mbts of 30k are effectively just as rediculous as the undergunned nature of the 40k classic mbts like the predator

[vital barn]

the Krios is like a lot of the Mechanicum army list in that it looks extremely scrungly but actually makes doctrinal sense when you think about it

and it's very fun to imagine a Mechanicum armoured convoy just bombing along a newly-laid highway at twice anyone else's cruise speed because they build the roads along with the invasion force and their "tanks" are surprisingly speedy

beep boop coming through

[hollow laurel]

Also the Kratos exists??

[pale narwhal]

I need to tell myself not to get into 30k mechanicum yet but the potential upcoming 30k skitarii and how cool the mechanicum look are tempting me

(not yet bc I have so much left to paint in my backlog)

[vital barn]

the Kratos is a superheavy tank that got lost

[thin ibex]

To be honest I like the predator with an advanced autocannon as a scifi tank that is focused on maintaining a high rate of movement while staying engaged than I do all the mega tanks with ultra super lasers and 5 sponsons, all of which are gatling las-melta-vortex canons meant to kill the lightest infantry on the field

[vital barn]

also, we know what the Mechanicum uses for heavy armour - it's either battle automata, ordinatii or titans

[main pagoda]

the pred is basically in 30k atleast a do everything tank

in terms of main gun

[hollow laurel]

Yeah, whereas I was throwing hands at the 40k Pred.

[vital barn]

so I can believe that their regular "tanks" are basically incredibly advanced and refined self-propelled guns

if you take the Vehicle Nerd archmagos you can get his own personal tank squad, which are Krioae that have been upgraded to outclass basically any armour in their cost bracket

[deft crest]

Classic

[thin ibex]

I just kinda vibe with the idea that the munition used by the predator auto is advanced and practical.

Some 30k tanks feel like the 90's version of War Machine or the Punisher, which is it's own kind of fun, but is more about gratuitous volume of firearms

[vital barn]

the Sicaran is nice, I like the Sicaran

[hollow laurel]

The problem I have with the 40k-era Predator is just, it isn't a tankbuster. And it's toted as their tank.

[vital barn]

the Kratos feels slightly pointless when the Land Raider, Spartan and Fellblade all exist

[deft crest]

Several times i've had the operative being attacked live the boomhammer swing, bit the attacker fuckin exploding.

[thin ibex]

You effectively get generic brand "this is a god slaying mega nuke laser blaster doom destroyer. It is the standard armament to fight light armor"

[deft crest]

I always imagine a loonytoons tom and jerry bit

[main pagoda]

I like to think of the 40k pred as the 40k CV9040 its basically a IFV chasis mounting a massively oversized gun that lets it brawl with the big boys to an extent

[deft crest]

Come around a corner BAM and there is a crater right next to you

[vital barn]

the 40k stuff always gives me that impression rather more, the 30k ones tend to at least be "[standard weapon type X] but a slightly different size"

[hollow laurel]

And I'm even more mad because the Castigator exists.

[vital barn]

whereas every 40k unit has three totally bespoke guns with overblown names

[hollow laurel]

So we know the Rhino chassis can mount a Battle Cannon.

[vital barn]

(the exception is the Saturnine stuff, they're all unique-geared to the nines)

[thin ibex]

Whereas I find the idea of the predator autocannon being built to use advanced armor penetrating rounds and maneuver warfare to exploit facings

To be more believable

[hollow laurel]

Sure, but then the lascannon one exists for when you "want to kill tanks" and that's when I get mad.

Stormtalus (Relatable 2) | MSMC ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) Whereas I find the idea of the predator autocannon being built to use advanced armor penetrating rou…

[bright dove]

Mmmm, Lascannon Predator.

[hollow laurel]

Like, a lascannon is not a sufficient replacement for a Battle Cannon, let alone a Vanquisher Cannon.

[bright dove]

Eh.

Ehhh

[main pagoda]

a las cannon will gut most tanks

[bright dove]

A battlecannon is my tool for deleting infantry from back in ye olden days tbh.

[thin ibex]

It might be a product of my lack of thorough familiarity with 30k, but every time I see something from it, it starts from the basis of "this is like a million times more powerful and better and cooler than what they use in 40k. It's weakest gun is a DAOT machine gun that shoots suns. It's an anti infantry weapon"

[vital barn]

honestly I don't recall much stuff like that

the Solar Auxilia have slightly better lasrifles, the Mechanicum have assorted weird shit, the Marines have all the usual stuff

[hollow laurel]

I'm currently staring at a Tallarn lascannon which the mounting of is blatantly a 17pdr.

[main pagoda]

yeah

its the anti tank gun

[vital barn]

the one thing the Mech does routinely deploy that's a class above most things in 40k is Darkfire weaponry, and that's just the Imperial equvialent of a Deldar Dark Lance

[hollow laurel]

Sorry, I'm retracing my arguments in my brain and I've realised where the issue is: The lascannon is what a Dreadnought or an anti-tank marine has, so the idea of just going "Eh, two of them is fine" just rubs me the wrong way?

Like, lascannons are always portrayed on Astartes vehicles as a secondary gun.

[vital barn]

I can't even think of a single Legion armament that's meant to be Infinite Times Better than 40k marine gear

neutron lasers, maybe?

the 40k Admech is still putting those on their tanks without difficulty

[hollow laurel]

And then the Predator Annihilator just.. Has two of them??

[main pagoda]

thats more just covering bases

[bright dove]

The true vehicle secondary gun is the Heavy Bolter. 😛

[hollow laurel]

IDK, maybe I just don't see it and I need to calm my tits.

[floral herald]

The Predator Annihilator is a field expedient fast moving Anti-tank platform the Space Wolves slapped together

[vital barn]

I quite like the Solar Auxilia approach, which is "We have two secondary weapons, either you have a multilaser or you have an autocannon. We give everyone infinity multilaser batteries and they load the tank sponsons, the sentinel guns and the infantry heavy weapons, deal with it."

[hollow laurel]

That's not the issue I have. The issue I have is that it's toted as the Space Marine's tank-hunting-tank.

And it feels.. Lackluster?

[main pagoda]

like if you want to think about it logically, you have a tank operating in a environment where it might run into another tank so your going to give it something to take those out or atleast get them to go away, now when you double that you have essentially 4 top of the line tank hunting kit on a fast platform

[bright dove]

I mean, the Predator Annhilator is going to handle pretty much any tank that's not a Land Raider.

[vital barn]

eh, not really

Dunecrawler/Krios has it pretty easily, and a Russ with even vaguely comparable crew and targeting system quality is at least a peer

but the Pred is fast, light and requires few crew, which makes sense for Space Marines

it can easily support their stupidly good infantry

I think it's less that a lascannon is a popgun for a tank and more that Devastators carrying around lascannons as PIAT equivalents is kind of nuts

for Guardsmen they're proper AT guns that need several crewmen

[thin ibex]

arent lascannons generally considered amongst the top tier of weapons available to the imperium? Effective against all targets.

[hollow laurel]

I have genuinely been told that if a proper tank was found fielded by the enemy, the Astartes solution is to call in a Leman Russ Vanquisher. And..

[vital barn]

the Predator is the definition of an unremarkable tank that does the job

[main pagoda]

well thats just wrong

[hollow laurel]

I'm sorry, I am getting mad for no good reason, I need to settle.

[thin ibex]

im a little caught on 'a proper tank'

[vital barn]

I mean, don't run your predators into a platoon of Onager Dunecrawlers or Hammerheads, sure, but you're space marines, you have much heavier tanks than preds

[thin ibex]

SM also have Land Raiders, which were apparently even fielded to fight titans (given, in numbers)

[rocky shale]

The predator is a boring design but it absolutely works in game

[hollow laurel]

Don't get me started on the Land Raider, that thing is even worse about it!

Stormtalus (Relatable 2) | MSMC ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) SM also have Land Raiders, which were apparently even fielded to fight titans (given, in numbers)

[bright dove]

I mean, the Land Raider is a brick.

https://tenor.com/view/brick-i-love-my-brick-insane-crazy-gif-4840800

[hollow laurel]

Like, I can accept a Predator as a light tank. But the Land Raider is not suitably gunned to serve as a tank. It's an IFV.

[vital barn]

30k land raiders fix the "lascannon kinda small" problem by swapping them out for Laser Destroyers, which have a lower rate of fire and a lot more punch

that's basically two normal-sized-tank-destroyer guns as the sponsons of your terminator delivery system

[hollow laurel]

The issue there is like, what heavier tank? A.. Land Raider? Which just has more lascannons.

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) I mean, don't run your predators into a platoon of Onager Dunecrawlers or Hammerheads, sure, but you…

[tired cairn]

Did lascannons used to be more relatively powerful in earlier editions of 40k? I kind of get the impression that alternatives have overshadowed them over time

[vital barn]

land raiders will happily fight either of those two

[main pagoda]

less more powerful more less options

[bright dove]

I mean, Lascannons are still the go-to vehicle/monster killer.

[main pagoda]

like if you were an SM player your AT was las cannons, missile launchers, meltas and punching the tank

[vital barn]

Land Raider works, Sicaran works, dreadnought with big AT guns works

[bright dove]

If it can easily shrug off a lascannon, then you should be shooting at it with a Knight or a Titan instead.

[hollow laurel]

Except the Guard has so many solutions for that same issue.

[rocky shale]

SM also have the Las talon

[bright dove]

Not really.

[hollow laurel]

Only with the coming of Primaris.

Turtle ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) SM also have the Las talon

[vital barn]

what is kind of missing from the 40k space marine list is the Neutron Laser-grade stuff, the heavy lascannons that can seriously threaten AV14, but that's because the Primaris have replaced most of the space marine vehicle lineup and all the forge world stuff was deleted from existence

[main pagoda]

guard has the vanquisher

[thin ibex]

for a long time the lascannon WAS the final word on AT iirc

its why the biggest armor had them

[bright dove]

The Guard solution is "Shoot More Guns at it"

[main pagoda]

which must be said in lore is a pretty rare platform

[vital barn]

the las-talon actually predates Primaris, it was on the 7e fliers

one of the only primaris weapons that isn't a totally bespoke Adjective Nounverber

[hollow laurel]

The Vanquisher started appearing in 3e.

Stormtalus (Relatable 2) | MSMC ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) for a long time the lascannon WAS the final word on AT iirc

[vital barn]

like, 30k space marines have a bucketload of options for all grades of armoured combat, 40k space marines don't because their range, absent Primaris, is about a fifth the size

and in-universe they're not really set up for massed tank battles

[hollow laurel]

And I was talking about this pre-Primaris, back in like 8e?

[vital barn]

even the Iron Hands and other 30k treadhead extraordinaires are focusing more on the superheavy infantry in 40k

[hollow laurel]

I celebrated the coming of the RepEx and Gladiator, for exactly that reason.

[pale narwhal]

there are 'laser destroyers' on the gladiator lancer and repex iirc

which are almost neutron laser tier

[vital barn]

pre-Primaris marines had access to the Forge World range, so they'd just roll out Sicarans, cooler dreads, etc.

Primaris came out start of 8th, so you have to go back to Imperial Armour actually being real to get the fun tanks

[hollow laurel]

Whereas I was basically given "Predator is tonk, if you need more, get Land Raider, that's it.".

[main pagoda]

i would also like it to be said for a long time the vanquisher was worse at killing tanks than las cannons

[vital barn]

unsurprisingly Imperial Armour adds a lot of information on Imperial armour

[hollow laurel]

Then it must have been 7e I was talking about this, because it was pre-Primaris.

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) Primaris came out start of 8th, so you have to go back to Imperial Armour actually being real to get…

That makes things make a lot more sense.

Fetus ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) i would also like it to be said for a long time the vanquisher was worse at killing tanks than las c…

[vital barn]

those are also legacy 30k weapons

basically any space marine twin lascannon in 30k can swap for a single laser destroyer, which has better pen and damage but only one shot rather than two

[hollow laurel]

Wait, it can't be 7e because there wasn't blast templates or Armourbane.

[thin ibex]

a thought i do also have is that space marine gear is all built to support space marines themselves to solve problems, guard cannons are built to solve problems directly

[pale narwhal]

gladiator and repex were 9e releases iirc

[vital barn]

Vanq Cannon generally has better punch than normal lascannons by some margin, it's just typically been a bit shoddy on the tabletop because it's a single shot gun available to a faction that hits on 4+

even with a Tank Commander that's a lot of gambling

[hollow laurel]

Mhm. I checked and yeah, the Lascannon has 1 more strength back in 8e, but much less range and doesn't have the 2 die thing.

[vital barn]

going by my usual benchmark for How Good is a Gun, which is HH3e because the stats aren't getting jerked around constantly, the Vanq is S10 AP2 D3-4

a lascannon is S9 AP2 D1-2, a laser destroyer is flat D3

[desert jay]

But also like lascannons as primary anti-tank goes all the way back to the 80s-90s editions

Where they would fuck shit up

[vital barn]

so a double laser destroyer spartan or land raider is going to handily outperform 1-2 Vanquishers at AT

[desert jay]

And the reduced lethality of them nowadays is kinda just a gameplay concern

[vital barn]

(and also cost more, Solar Auxilia armour is nothing if not efficient)

[floral herald]

Space marine armor is also mostly kinda light because everything is airmobile

[vital barn]

their tanks typically come in two varieties, thin-skinned nippy thing and GIANT BOX

[desert jay]

My god... their vehicle doctrine is French

[vital barn]

it's why I'm indifferent to the Kratos, it's got the aesthetics of the first type and the stats of the latter

[hollow laurel]

Also I checked, no, the Vanquisher is S9 but has Heavy, Sunder, and Brutal.

[vital barn]

it feels like it would be this horrible hybrid that's hard to actually deploy

[hollow laurel]

It's basically a Gravis Lascannon with more range and Brutal (2).

[vital barn]

that's about right, yeah

[hollow laurel]

I still am :3 over the fucking 9e Vanquisher though.

[vital barn]

exact stats vary between editions but general ranking of punch has stayed pretty consistent

except in HH2e where basic lascannons were being spammed in massive quantities because of how OP dreadnoughts were

basically the only way you could stop them was to mass lascannons and lascannons were the spammiest AT that could still reasonably handle the heaviest tanks, so anything more expensive got thrown out

[desert jay]

I forgot that Gravis was the name of a lascannon pattern and was briefly confused b/c there's no Primaris lascannon unit yet

[hollow laurel]

Oh, I don't have HH3e to look at.

That's their HH2e stats.

[vital barn]

I am a big fan of H3's weapon balancing

H2 was jank as hell because Brutal was both rare and totally necessary to handle the Dreadpocalypse

[hollow laurel]

Okay, found the 3e stats.

[vital barn]

the only thing I do feel is lacking in 3e is Mechanicum anti-AV14, they have a strangely massive hole there

curse of options reduction from their old, more conversion-dependent list combining with 3e tanks being buffed significantly

[hollow laurel]

Eh? Why does the Lascannon get Armourbane but the Vanquisher doesn't?

[thin ibex]

not taking unit stats into account, my understanding is that lascannons are not all built the same, but t hat also lascannons ARE excellent anti armor weapons

not to say vanquisher cannons are not, they are, but they're harder to produce iirc

[hollow laurel]

if you hit with a co-axial weapon the other turret mounted weapons gain twin-linked, and hittin 1 out of 2 shots with a 50/50 chance isnt that unlikely
Ohhh.

[vital barn]

Vanq is S10, so both pen AV13 on 4+ but Vanq gun inflicts debilitating statuses on 3s and lascannon doesn't

in HH3e, anyway

[hollow laurel]

Mhm, mhm.

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) Vanq is S10, so both pen AV13 on 4+ but Vanq gun inflicts debilitating statuses on 3s and lascannon …

And it gets fucking ranging from the heavy stubber coax.

[vital barn]

are you sure you have the same rules?

I don't recall anything about coax guns in HH3e

2e, yeah

[thin ibex]

Anti armor emplacements use quad las, spaceships use lascannon secondaries, land raiders use lascannons, like pretty much if they dont have a custom anti tank weapon, its a lascannon cause its that good

[brittle salmon]

Co-ax has no additional benefits in 3e

[vital barn]

the Solar Auxilia armour is mostly notable for being incredibly numerous and incredibly versatile more than anything else

they're not shooting the wings off flies, they just have MORE MEN! MORE TANKS!