Warhammer and Such

[untold swallow]

The guy also does a killer Grimaldus

Who, despite my wariness of Black Templar fans and players, undeniably goes hard

[charred bridge]

Conversations with Alpharius shows he's rather good at reading his brothers (except Alpharius?) and basically knew if they were like too far gone.

[hollow laurel]

Fair enough.

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) instead of you get hold of a small platoon of elite marksmen and gun the bastard down

I mean, sometimes you gotta headhunt from range.

[untold swallow]

Oh yeah this is also the guy who voices Heinrix in Owlcat Rogue Trader

[upper canopy]

Dorn frustrates me

[untold swallow]

lol

[vital barn]

the Headhunters are my favourite special unit in the Horus Heresy, because I thought "wait, these guys are giant targets, look at how much expensive gear they have for only a 1W marine" and then I realised something

they get Banestrike rapid-fire bolters, power daggers and power armour
Tactical Marines get regular bolters, regular daggers and power armour

they just look like line troopers

[upper canopy]

Because I think the intent with him was "his unthinking loyalty and inability actually consider anything makes him genuinely inferior to Perturabo" but he's just framed as Being Better than Perturabo

for being More Evil

Him being curt and refusing to listen or talk with anyone is him being dumb!

He's a big dummy!

[vital barn]

(they're banestrike combi-bolters, so they are bulkier, but they're also over-under rather than side by side, so they look similar from a distance)

[upper canopy]

He lost both sieges he was supposed to be in charge of because he's incapable of change

[vital barn]

Dorn is what you want if you want your space marines to be highly effective blunt instruments, Dorn and Ferrus

basically-stable, easily aimed

they share basically the same failings, except Ferrus was too damn aggressive

[upper canopy]

Ferrus at least had emotions

[vital barn]

(and just to illustrate my earlier point, AL headhunters, looking pretty much like normal Marines and ready to power knife some bastard)

they have the serpent scale armour for drip, but they're AL, that's very much optional

[hollow laurel]

Aww, I thought they had like, snipers.

[upper canopy]

I was also kinda expecting snipers

[vital barn]

oh no they have a different guy for that

[upper canopy]

Those are just tactical marines

[hollow laurel]

Actually that's a point, by 40k, is are the las fusil guys good for taking out snipers?

[vital barn]

Exodus is their elite sniper character

[hollow laurel]

Er, primarchs and other leaders.

[vital barn]

Exodus also does not have the unique tag

[untold swallow]

what in the AK bolter?

[hollow laurel]

Oops all Exodii?

[vital barn]

you can very easily run three or four of him

he is a bit expensive for that, but there are regular sniper squads available in the Legion generic list and the AL make very good use of them

they were the original inventors of Seekers, which are your classic precision shots multiple-ammo-types space marine vet marksmen that would eventually become Sternguard, and AL Seekers are still the best of them

[hollow laurel]

I think they're the Eliminators?

Josie | System at 63 ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) Actually that's a point, by 40k, is are the las fusil guys good for taking out snipers?

Wait, Sternguard were originally snipers?

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) they were the original inventors of Seekers, which are your classic precision shots multiple-ammo-ty…

[vital barn]

they could be snipers, although their standard boltguns were not configured as such

they do a quick kit swap, stick a scope on there and load the high-penetrator rounds

[hollow laurel]

Ooh.

[hollow laurel]

Ah, dedicated headhunter units. I like.

[vital barn]

I do like their weaponry because it's a very neat encapsulation of the three jobs of snipers

AL are mostly notable because they can run whole platoons of these guys and run around popping heads with their custom-designed anti-power armour rounds rather than relegating them to single-squad sniper duty

[hollow laurel]

What's their range vs Tacticals?

[vital barn]

if you want the most elite snipers rather than this kind of whole-squad-designated-marksman role you do want the Raven Guard

double tap at 30" range, no falloff of any kind

so they outrange tacs

[hollow laurel]

Tacs are.. 24"?

[vital barn]

yeah

[hollow laurel]

At a guess, yeah.

[vital barn]

they'll also melt them, although they're nearly twice the cost per model and no more durable, so you don't really want to use them to fight line troops, it's a waste of good veterans and they're not equipped to hold ground

they are good at it, though, Precision Shots + Breaching means the first three to die will be the sarge, the squad banner and the squad vox

I find them very evocative, they remind me strongly of the opening battles at Calth where it's all sudden bolter-duel ambushes in the forests

[rocky shale]

Snipers in 40k are usually either small squads with stealth which die to anything that also has range to them or single models with lone operative which are better countered by deep strike units

[vital barn]

headshot, headshot, double tap, next target

HH3e snipers are really good, although you'll need some serious investment to kill the bigger characters with them

Terminator/Saturnine legion praetors, Primarchs, Archmagi etc. generally don't care if you headshot them

[tranquil ivy]

Watching a battle report

"Raven Guard vs Tau"

"Gladius Task Force"

https://tenor.com/view/scout-update-nothing-dissappointment-gif-9922939

[hollow laurel]

They're good to like, hide behind your frontline.

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) they'll also melt them, although they're nearly twice the cost per model and no more durable, so you…

[vital barn]

they're also as good as infiltrating as you can get without being an Imperial Assassin or an Alpha Legion Saboteur, so you should really be meeting the enemy army from the best firing position you can possibly find, having infiltrated into it during deployment

Seekers are one of the gems of this edition, in previous editions they were perfectly useful but mostly as suicide melta squads hurled out of drop pods

in this one you want them doing spec ops/ranger stuff, sniping officers, suppressing units and otherwise clearing the way for your actual troops in their actual transports to get to the objectives without being unduly harassed by all those heavy bolters and their lieutenant over there

[vital barn]

here.’
‘At all?’
‘No.```
I forgot this bit of Prospero Burns

theyse guys are running an entire space marine legion on oral tradition

no wonder they have trouble keeping their shit together during the Heresy, they are ideologically opposed to the concept of a spreadsheet to the point it's a genuine achievement that they have ammunition and food at all

[floral herald]

Maybe numbers are ok

[vital barn]

a giant pile of numbers with no reference points?

nah, they've got some guy who's a Dune Mentat or some shit or they're fucked, considering they have a full legion's complement of Stuff

[charred bridge]

Guy who just remembers how many bolter rounds you have

[vital barn]

pictograms, maybe

that might work

[charred bridge]

Isn't pictograms just written words with less steps

[vital barn]

and their psykers claim they're not such a thing

fits for the Wolves

but having a bunch of symbols for combat and not allowing written record-keeping is not inconsistent in itself, even if it is damned stupid

[charred bridge]

Our holy Rune Priests vs your heretical Psykers

It would be funny of the chapter serfs keep like secret books cause they have adhd

[charred bridge]

Also

Alpha legion you rascal

[sour sequoia]

I gotta imagine the actual answer is something like quipu

Inka had full market systems and commerce without written language because they basically invented a programming script via beads

It doesn’t necessarily meet ‘language’ based on who you ask but its fairly robust

[tardy vault]

So, I decided to take a look at the unit win rates for my list. Despite going 3-2, there is exactly one unit in my list that had a more than 50% win rate. After Lifetakers with their 60% winrate (and that win rate is because they're cheap as fuck so they find their way on lists with good units, not them being actually good), Morathi-Khaine is next with a 49.2% win rate lol. And like, I play a Hag Queen on Cauldron with a fucking 45.2% win rate lol. My faction may be busted, but my list sure isn't
https://aos-events.com/winrate_stats

[vital barn]

despite the fact that the POV character for this entire book is an archaeologist/anthropologist, we get no real look at those details, sadly

given all the transduction problems that would cause translating everything from Martian/General Imperium operating language to Space Wolf operating language I would still expect their logistics to be a pretty major mess, but if you make some allowance for Space Marines supposedly being super-smart then it would probably be operable

[gray basalt]

I'm here to slander Dorn

Oh I was scrolled way up

[charred bridge]

Unfortate that slandorn hour is over

[gray basalt]

I always have time to slander my least favorite Primarch

Tied with Russ

Also just for reference my favorite Primarch is Mortarion followed closely by Khan

[charred bridge]

Mines would be Erebus just because hes a shit is absolutley loving that and derserves to be shit on.

Or uh Lorgar/Perty

[gray basalt]

Erebased rocks

[vital barn]

Lorgar is my favourite Primarch by some margin

[gray basalt]

Both in my top 5

[vital barn]

gets shit done, has style (sometimes), always making the big maneuvers

downside is that he's a whiny little shit for the first book and a half

[charred bridge]

Perty to me is like, manchild who never got a good dad and a pay on the back.

[vital barn]

by the robot wars critera of style, damage, control and aggression, Lorgar leads easily

shame he hasn't had good rules in two editions

[charred bridge]

I love Iron Warriors cause while the other traitor legions are like "I'm not a slave to chaos" while being puppets the iron warriors are like "get in the engine daemon"

[vital barn]

1e Lorgar had an ugprade to represent him getting the hang of all this demon stuff, 2e and 3e don't so he's just kind of the runt of the litter

[charred bridge]

You're gonna be a gun whether you want to or not

[untold swallow]

Oh yeah since my chapter are space mormons (I can explain this if needed) and their chaplains are also their main weaponsmiths I decided to make my Master of Sanctity a Joshua Graham reference

[gray basalt]

I mean he is the Primarch equivalent of a retail worker makes stellar numbers but never gets recognition

[untold swallow]

"We are the tools of the Emperor's holy judgment, we cannot expect him to shoulder all the labor."

[gray basalt]

I'm an ex Mormon so I am mildly interested

[charred bridge]

I mean if I were a superhuman I'd go to chaplain for therapy

[untold swallow]

Or

maybe not mormons

Jehovah's Witnesses

[charred bridge]

Maybe a different chapters chaplain

[untold swallow]

I meant Jehovah's Witnesses, my apologies

Their tenure as scouts is to accompany a selected sergeant on a recruitment drive done via proselytizing

[charred bridge]

Lorgar to me is like, a muppet played by Erebus like a fiddle and the entire time it's like watching a sopping wet guy having his strings pulled.

[gray basalt]

Nah, they can be Mormon, Mormons in a grimdark setting would be funny

[untold swallow]

I mean the joke label is emergent from their conduct

I don't think Mormons do the whole door to door thing

[vital barn]

Lorgar starts making a lot of his own moves once the Heresy gets going

[charred bridge]

Corax is based for just becoming warped corrupted birb and just deciding to terrorize Lorgar

[gray basalt]

They do but only their 18-21 y/os

[vital barn]

didn't pull off the anti-Horus coup but otherwise he has a very productive time of it

Calth: fucked

Ruinstorm: in position

Angron: not dead (not happy about it, but what can you do)

[untold swallow]

Oh then yea, space Mormons

[vital barn]

getting more done than, say, Curze or Fulgrim

[untold swallow]

Their final trial is also the Eucharist

[gray basalt]

I never went on a mission but I have many a family that did

[untold swallow]

If the Eucharist involved consuming the corpse of your organ donor

[charred bridge]

I think my top 3 is like Jagahatai Khan cause based thinker and roasts every traitor also fan of zooming and treating space marines like a strike team.
Vulkan because he's a precious menacing guy.
Curze because wow he's fucked up, also based for being a traitor legion that didn't fall to chaos as a faction; everything that happened to them was self inflicted humanity.

[gray basalt]

Jumping back to the convo at hand, I need to read Deliverance Lost bc I fundamentally do not understand why Corax stayed loyal

I love Curze too

But he doesn't make my top 5

[vital barn]

Khan is undoubtably one of the least nuts of them but he doesn't really grab me

[main pagoda]

it wasn't like he was really given a choice tbf

[gray basalt]

Fair

[vital barn]

he's just boringly sensible all Heresy long, at least until he gets in a fight with Morty on Terra

the other Scars have a bit more to them

[charred bridge]

I like sensible

[main pagoda]

scars and path of heaven are two fantastic books

[vital barn]

yeah, I did like Scars

[gray basalt]

Granted the traitors were sizing up who they thought would turn traitor and didn't think Corax would

[vital barn]

the Alpha Legion are very solid opposition for both them and the Space Wolves, they don't just get chumped, which is nice

in both cases the loyalists manage to break out of the ambush, but they don't get a Death Star-style "and then the entire baddie fleet exploded" montage which happens sometimes in BL books

[gray basalt]

Also surprised Corax and Morty aren't friends

[main pagoda]

Morty is too much of a child

[gray basalt]

Did you read any of Mortarion's books?

[main pagoda]

all of them

[gray basalt]

He absolutely is not

He is a cult leader tho

[untold swallow]

Jag is actually my #3 because he is the one Primarch who 1; truly internalized the Emperor's purpose for them and the fact that in preparing them for that purpose he has done them an irreparable, irredeemable harm that is worth reproaching him, and 2; didn't immediately find a new, equally abusive master and turn his back on humanity.

He simply

Fucked off

[charred bridge]

4 and 5 would be alpha legion or space wolves.
Alpha Legion cause I think Alpharius/Omeagon has the most dialogue with every primach and it'd very insightful.
Space Wolves mostly cause of their rune priests and how they were like, magnus you dumb psyker we knew more about the warp than you did and knew enough to be careful. Rune priests not psykers

[vital barn]

Jag is too "got to read the author's commentary" for my liking

[untold swallow]

I just like the introspection that at their core the Primarchs are absurdly powerful abused and neglected children

[main pagoda]

when you strip back the very thin veil of his "fatherly instincts" he is at his core a petulant child rebelling against the imperium not for any great cause other than "I was slighted" and commits unspeakable acts due to that

[vital barn]

I love the Alpha Legion and their insane overcomplication of everything, but Alpharius and Omegon aren't really characters per se

[charred bridge]

I find it funny, he was like, well Imperium is fucked, old man is in golden chair, his dream is dead. I'm going to fight some Drukhari

[gray basalt]

Did you miss the whole psyker oppression thing happening on Barbarus?

[vital barn]

also whichever one of the two died to Dorn went out like an absolute chump, really not the best bad guy writing there but it was John French, so no surprise

[charred bridge]

That describes like most of the primarchs though really, just some more than others

[vital barn]

John French is a gigantic Fists fan and it does kind of show

[untold swallow]

I mean Fetus, while that is true, it's true of almost every Primarch, even the loyal ones

They are all petulant children who commit unspeakable horrors upon the galaxy

[vital barn]

when there are no Fists involved, his books are really good, the Tallarn ones were some of my fvourite heresy novels

[gray basalt]

He saw what happened on Barbarus, then his first two major compliances are fighting psyker dominated societies. He believes in his heart all psykers become tyrants by nature his rebellion was to dethrone a tyrant

[charred bridge]

The ones who like I wouldn't call children is Dorn, Corvax, Gorillaman (cause gullimom is goated), and vulkan

Probably fulgrim too

[vital barn]

Fulgrim is very childish

[main pagoda]

despite being a psyker himself and a psyker being his most trusted ally and brother (typhus)

[charred bridge]

Oh and erebus

[gray basalt]

Erebus is just the avatar of 40k hating him is hating the setting

[vital barn]

and it's hard to tell what Alphy/Omegon are in any sense but what little we know about them seems to indicate they were at least professional about things

[main pagoda]

theres too much cognitive dissonance with morty for me to really feel any other way about him

[charred bridge]

Hate fuck erebus, all my homie hate erebus.

[vital barn]

possibly arrogant as hell, but they're not just running into problems and getting turned into chopped meat like Ferrus and Russ

[gray basalt]

Guess we ain't homies 😔

[charred bridge]

I do appreciate his role as the professional shit stirrer primarch basically

[vital barn]

erebus is just a guy, though

[charred bridge]

Very unapologetic about it too, love that

[vital barn]

admittedly he does have most of Lorgar's competence budget allocated to him until the end of The First Heretic

[gray basalt]

He is but his entire being is to bring 40k about

[charred bridge]

Yea he's a catalyst for imperium downfall, doesnt mean I really find him that interesting as he's almost cartoonishly evil

[gray basalt]

And whenever the setting needs for someone to get stabbed to bring itself about Erebased is there

[vital barn]

honestly there aren't many Primarchs whose writing I genuinely like

[gray basalt]

That's a good thing

[vital barn]

Lorgar and Guilliman are genuinely compelling, Perty and Angron are fun in their mix of competence and patheticness, the others, eh

I need to properly read Legion and see if the twins get any fun moments

[charred bridge]

I think the primarchs I like have very little on them or their story is basically done. Hasn't ever been really ruined by a bad writer

Necrons are still my favorite faction, or rather like the top 6 names.

I wish there were more done with them, their story right now is like, stagnant

[gray basalt]

Robert and Nathan are BLs best writers

Imo

Almost all the Necron books slap thanks to them

[charred bridge]

I loved the necron books ive read so far

[untold swallow]

I mean in spirit of fairness he wasn't a psyker pre-fall iirc

[gray basalt]

Don't read Indomitus

[charred bridge]

They feel out of most all fiction ive read proper ancient. The way theyre written the feel ancient

[main pagoda]

not to the same extent but he was still a psyker

Morty like all primarchs does get that metric load of self loathing

[charred bridge]

Infinite and Divine when mindshackled Koloma asks Trazyn if hes going to destroy this world and his response was fire. He recounted how only a few centuries years ago the planet had just recovered from like orks and nature was lush and plentiful with the clearest seas. So he responds "not any worse than your imperium has done to this world"

[gray basalt]

I won't forgive the writer of Indomitus for adding an Ultramarines character called "Brother Guy Haleius"

[untold swallow]

He intended it to be pronounced like the French Guy but forgot it was text not audio

[charred bridge]

Also like over the span of 10000-15000 years? The planet had gone through several basically apocalypses but life bounced back each time and he also mentions that the imperium might not be on the planet a 1000 years but the world will and has always been (except Cadia)

[gray basalt]

He was he just suppressed it so hard he was technically only a latent psyker

[main pagoda]

obligatory planet broke before the guard did cadia stands etc etc

[gray basalt]

But if he actually worked on those powers he would've been an actually powerful psyker

[charred bridge]

I love how like there were reports of guard shooting lasguns into space as they were slowly suffocating

They did not stop even after Cadia was pieces

Idk why but I like how nice Silent King treats dante

[untold swallow]

The urge to give my homebrew characters and chapter homebrew rules

[gray basalt]

But Mortarion was raised by a psyker, and that psyker basically just tortured him and the people of Barbarus the entire time that psyker lived on Barbarus so he ain't touching the stuff

[main pagoda]

except when it suited him see typhon

[gray basalt]

Yes bc even he isn't completely immune to letting his friends slide

[untold swallow]

Fetus I get your point but again none of this is a unique level of hypocrisy among Primarchs lmao

[main pagoda]

did i say it was?

[untold swallow]

The way you're discussing it as the reason you uniquely dislike him certainly implies that to me

[gray basalt]

He likes Typhon bc Typhon is the first real human he meets and they escape Nacare (the psyker [well potentially xenos really unclear on what the overlords are] that torments Barbarus) together

[main pagoda]

no im discussing it like this because we are talking about morty

talking about his hypocrisy because we are talking about him if we were talking about any other primarch it would be the same

[untold swallow]

We're discussing Morty as part of a larger conversation regarding our preferences for primarchs, and you said Mortarion is among your disliked. Apologies if this is genuinely not the case but reading back it seems causal to me

And like to be clear, not liking Mortarion for this reason is fair

[gray basalt]

He is big hypocrite three times and two of those are kinda the same. He hates psykers to the point of wanting to kill all psykers but him and Typhon are both psykers and lead the legion. Third point is he loves his legion and sons but then kills a bunch in a book (I think that was a character assassination of the highest order)

[untold swallow]

I don't give a shit about Morty either way tbh

also I am so surprised no one's made a reference by now

[main pagoda]

the whole spark was "Would Corax and Morty be friends" and the response i gave was no morty is too much of a child

[untold swallow]

Fair

[gray basalt]

And Corax isn't? He basically does what ever his dad tells him to and actually wants to do so from my understanding

[main pagoda]

Morty doesnt have an equal you are either lesser than him and weak or you are stronger than him and resented for that fact

[gray basalt]

Eh he likes the folks from Barbarus bc they understand him better than most folks

[main pagoda]

yes but they still are never his equals

the closet you get is typhon

[gray basalt]

He resents people who he perceives as acting fake to him (being nice bc he perceives niceness to fakers)

Also literally no one is a Primarch's equal, even amongst themselves

Closest was A &O

[main pagoda]

but in regards to Corax hes a man of two faces the first has always existed the "Liberator" seeking to free the oppressed humans of the galaxy and usher in the golden age and then basically his batman arc post istavaan IV where he is essentially willing to do anything to hurt the traitors

[charred bridge]

I mean tbf iirc he did not relish in nuking things

[main pagoda]

willing and liking are different

you see it still where he does try to avoid hurting those caught up in the winds of war as much as possible

[charred bridge]

Yea hes willing to do so if overall its beneficial, man got internal conflict of ideologies

[main pagoda]

its basically the realities of the war

[gray basalt]

Mans never thought to attack the greatest oppressor, his own father

[main pagoda]

and in regards to primarchs not seeing each others as equals I feel thats quite a misread of the interbrother dynamic

[gray basalt]

Mans is a fake liberator

[charred bridge]

Thats what surprises me about corax being a staunch loyalist

[gray basalt]

Same

Hence why I need to read Deliverance Lost

[charred bridge]

I would have assumed he'd be like a foil to Curze.
Curze traitored but not cause of any loyalty to Chaos.
Corax loyalist but not cause of any loyalty to the Emperor.

[main pagoda]

well you got to remember who liberated/help liberated his world

[gray basalt]

Very few rebel bc of chaos

Horus and Fulgrim are the only 2 I can think of that are chaos related

[main pagoda]

Lorgar to an extent?

[gray basalt]

Magnus was forced by Swoofs

[charred bridge]

Morty

[gray basalt]

Yea but if Monarchia didn't happen he wouldn't have fallen

[charred bridge]

Stink guy of nurgle

[main pagoda]

true but thats more of a cause iirc

[gray basalt]

Morty would've rebelled without chaos at some time

[main pagoda]

or not a cause a factor

[gray basalt]

Big E again is the biggest tyrant and Morty hates him

[charred bridge]

The causes are mostly human, but their loyalty after the HH did change

[main pagoda]

Morty only really falls to chaos enroute to terra

he uses deamons as a tool up till then see lifeeater

[gray basalt]

The 3 that would've always eventually rebelled without any intervention are Morty, Curze and Angron

[main pagoda]

I would say Magnus being censured was also inevitable not rebelling but as the khan put it he never did know when to stop

[charred bridge]

Curze just was untouched by chaos and well Night Lords mostly basically fell apart shortly before his death and splintered hard, few did do the chaos

[gray basalt]

There is an argument for Pert but he needed others to rebel first

[gray basalt]

That's fair

[charred bridge]

Leman Russ also pretty much said the same thing

[main pagoda]

well the perty one is really caused by Olympia

[charred bridge]

Multiple primarchs warned Magnus

[gray basalt]

But he could've played it off as quelling rebellion

And then continued to be bitter

[vital barn]

Magnus was going to eat shit at some point but the exact pile of circumstances caused the worst possible outcome of "Imperial Webway permafucked, 1ksons full Tzeench rather than just killed off for being Helldivers fleshmobs, bunch of Wolves and Bananas dead"

the 1ksons are the most comically doomed legion, though

whatever happens to Magnus they aren't living

[gray basalt]

That's fair

[main pagoda]

kinda but he really does see at the point that hes crossed the rubicon and hes can't ever really go back

[gray basalt]

He does

Also fair

[vital barn]

I will say that perty is the most fun traitor to watch completely crash out

he's not sympathetic but it's a fun bitter boy arc

and then he shows up and beats Angron into the dirt, which is a very fun scene

[charred bridge]

Magnus would have messed up at some point going toe to toe with forces he really didnt understand.
Morty hated psykers cause of his experience
Russ was extremely careful with how Rune Priests like dont get possessed cause everything is in the runes moreso than the person, he knew more than he let on about. Although if he told Magnus he saw the dangers of jumping into the Warp Magnus would be like "im built different"
Khan knew quite a bit about the warp and just believed the emps to not mess with it cause if Emps is afraid of the chaos entities yea hes also doing that

[main pagoda]

well the khan really is shaped by the Choghoris approach to the warp

[gray basalt]

I think his TEaTD one was a little out of character but Pert is like my 5th favorite so the bias is there

[vital barn]

I haven't actually got to that part yet

Perty vs Angron is Slaves to Darkness

[charred bridge]

A fun line magnus said constantly is like "when have I ever been wrong?" and I think Russ or Morty said "that doesnt mean you cant be wrong for the first time"

[main pagoda]

which is sip from the bowl but never lose yourself and his chief stormseer guides him alot in that

[gray basalt]

I see him as sympathetic but only bc of Angel Exterminatus

Actually also from being a workhorse with no reward

[vital barn]

Magnus and Russ are both F tier to me, they spend their both their arcs in perfectly symmetrical parabolic fuck-ups and never learn shit, nor are their pretentions of genius particularly convincing

"I am never wrong and will simply no diff the warp" and "I am fated to always be a fucking idiot who gets all my sons killed, therefore I will" are even less compelling than whatever Morty has going on

[charred bridge]

From memes I think Sanguius being the 2nd horus poster boy is fun. Also Dante

[gray basalt]

I worked retail for a long time so I can understand Pert's viewpoint

[main pagoda]

I really like the SW in HH but its really the background of them rather their actions

[vital barn]

yeah, Pert is the "he's literally me" primarch because whomst among us, even if he is a total prat

I don't actually mind the Space Wolves even if I think they're kind of idiots, but Russ is just dreadful

[gray basalt]

I just wish they were more norse

[charred bridge]

Skill issue, id just conquer the planet than worry about what people using me as tools think

[main pagoda]

in what sense?

[vital barn]

A couple of weeks ago I was considering making a space wolves force who heard the big "you can spend your lives at Terra in a sensible fashion or follow me to certain death" speech Russ gives in Wolfsbane and went "actually, yeah, I'm going to be at the important battle instead" before turning around and going back to Terra.

[upper canopy]

The only Primarchs I particularly like are Sanguinius, Perturabo, and Angron

[pastel rampart]

Russ is the boozed-up party hound you knew in college that everyone thought was a blast to have around but then you run into him 5 years after graduation and he hasn't changed and is still doing the same dumb shit and now it's just kind of embarrassing.

[vital barn]

do them up with Imperial Palace bases

[gray basalt]

Less "drink ale and fight" and more "wear tunics and harvest food before the terrible winters"

[main pagoda]

the watchpack in wrath of magnus is peak SW

[charred bridge]

I will say White Scars and Ultramarines have dumb geneseed flaws. Khans is like bloodlust (almost every chapter does this) its nowhere near the detriment the black rage or world eaters have.

[gray basalt]

Imagine Swoofs as farmers

That'd be based

[vital barn]

oh yeah they were kind of fun

but I meant proper breachers on the walls rather than those four guys

the other watchpacks are all kind of morons

[main pagoda]

the watchpacks are kinda the best part of SW in terms of writing

[vital barn]

those guys who seriously thought they were going to fight Guilliman made me roll my eyes a bit

[upper canopy]

The Ultramarines and White Scars don't have Geneseed flaws though

[charred bridge]

They basically dont

[gray basalt]

They don't

[upper canopy]

They don't at all

[gray basalt]

Khan is just angy sometimes

[main pagoda]

theres that but to me that shit is cool. Like we have no chance of success but we are oathsworn to this task and what happens happens

[gray basalt]

Personality flaw

[vital barn]

other than the few who made it to Terra, did any of the Watch Packs actually manage to do a damn thing?

[gray basalt]

And honestly not even

[vital barn]

like, great hook for an army, terrible idea from Russ as usual

[gray basalt]

Khan, feel your feelings man

[main pagoda]

the BA ones eat shit on signus

[pastel rampart]

It would've been rather in character if the WS flaw was just them being adrenaline junkies that got them into hot water because they FEEL THE NEED FOR SPEED.

[charred bridge]

The infamous "inconclusive"

[main pagoda]

tbf that does come up in the books

not a geneseed flaw but a doctrine flaw

[gray basalt]

In old old lore they had a geneseed flaw

[charred bridge]

It says its inconclusive

[gray basalt]

It's since been retconned

[vital barn]

Dorn's one dies on Terra doing sensible stuff, Kurze's one gets owned and tortured as expected, Gulliman's guys try to square up to fucking Lion because trying to handle one primarch wasn't enough and Russ apparently picked his bravest morons for the task, but are fundamentally decent people

[main pagoda]

I was replying to myself

[charred bridge]

Al

[vital barn]

and then the Alpha Legion pack gets trivially out-schemed because come on, how do you even know you're watching the right guy

[upper canopy]

I think this is just Deathwatch lore where they had to give everyone a "geneseed flaw" for corruption mechanics

[gray basalt]

Dorn out schemes the schemers 😔

[upper canopy]

like the TTRPG Deathwatch

[charred bridge]

Ask them if they are alpharius

[vital barn]

Dorn beating the AL's ass over terra is fair enough, that was peak "we got too high on our own supply" but the AL spends the rest of the Heresy being very competent

Alaxxes, delaying the Scars, Paramar, etc.

they get shit done

just, slightly self-contradictory shit because they have at least two and possibly fifty agendas

[charred bridge]

If its the geneseed, its a lame flaw that really doesnt add much.
If its just taught behavior theyve got a boring geneseed

[gray basalt]

I'd be ok with it if Dorn (SoT spoilers kinda) ||didn't continue to out do other Primarchs at their own game in SoT||

[vital barn]

Dorn vs Alphy was very much a writer's pet situation but hey, they had a spare

[main pagoda]

In that its worded as basically their chogrian upbringing eg being steppe raiders not being in balance of being an actual space marine and having the power they have now rather than the geneseed

[gray basalt]

I was actually really cool with that moment bc we got that Omegon scene

[paper bluff]

I'm still for the lorgar redemption arc

[gray basalt]

Wild

He do love his brothers tho

[vital barn]

I feel like it was a bit uncalled for to take the one faction whose deal is "we barely have primarchs, it's all layers within layers" and write "WE DEFINITELY GOT HIM, OMNISCIENT NARRATOR, TOTES DEAD, OWNED FOREVER" in someone else's book

[gray basalt]

Fair

[vital barn]

especially since Dorn is all over the shop and Alphy shows up in a grand total of two books

[gray basalt]

3 now!

[vital barn]

the AL get a lot of screentime collectively, but we see less of their bosses than we do Ferrus, for obvious reasons

[gray basalt]

Alpharius Primarch book

[charred bridge]

See that feels lame in a sense of its like a nonsense flaw. Like saying "my weakess is I work too hard". Like the combat machines thunder warriors 2.0 has bloodlust? Oh nooo anyways the world eaters

[upper canopy]

Sometimes I do feel kinda bad being partially responsible for Primarchacolypse

[main pagoda]

well its not a flaw

thats the point

some geneseeds are just stable thats the way of it

[charred bridge]

Its a lame trait then

[gray basalt]

Hey WEs one is legitimately impairing

[charred bridge]

Yea thats my point

[upper canopy]

Well the WE didn't have a geneseed flaw either

[main pagoda]

^

[upper canopy]

MOST legions didn't

[vital barn]

the WE were limited primarily by the usual spectacular daddy issues

[paper bluff]

Yeah we wouldn't know what non- nails WE would be like

[main pagoda]

we do

[gray basalt]

We do

[vital barn]

AL don't seem to be flawed either, unless you count a truly Sidereal level of hubris, and that might just be Average Space Marine

[charred bridge]

No flaws then but they have geneseed traits

[paper bluff]

In a modern chapter

[gray basalt]

Ah that's fair

[vital barn]

a lot of the loyalists on Istvaan III were non-nailed and they were basically competent

[gray basalt]

Probably like the squad dude on Istvaan 3 tho

A few non-loyalists after too

[vital barn]

also the last WE Librarians at nuceria

genuinely, good effort there lads

[hollow laurel]

It never occurred to me that WE didn't have Librarians.

But it makes sense too.

[gray basalt]

They did

[vital barn]

they did, but the nails make it impossible to control their powers

[paper bluff]

A WE librarian making it to the modern age would be something. Thought to be an old healer in The woods on some bad water planet

[vital barn]

they all died, except a couple of dozen who didn't have them implanted

[gray basalt]

The nails don't work on them tho, they just die

[paper bluff]

They kinda.... explode

[charred bridge]

I like salamanders geneseed trait, it makes the inhumane space marines look like monsters of a being despite being one of the kindest chapter

[vital barn]

the rest of the WE shunned them after that, until the last nineteen die in a desperate attempt to stop Lorgar ascending their father

[hollow laurel]

Or well, I guess more that they ever had Librarians.

[gray basalt]

All legions did

Some just had more than others

[charred bridge]

I think it would have been interesting if one special butcher nailed WE librarian lived

[paper bluff]

What kind of interpretation of the nails do you like? The lessening of anything other than rage, only feeling rage, a constant itch and irritation

[gray basalt]

Even Typhon had his little cabal in the DG

[gray basalt]

I would be interested but knowing GW they wouldn't handle it well

[charred bridge]

Isnt it kind of all 3?

[upper canopy]

I mean he'd be dead now

Just from old age

[paper bluff]

Funnily enough they were ones that calmed Angron and got him to sleep

[charred bridge]

The curse of rolling the writer roulette

[gray basalt]

Chaos folks usually have enlongend ages

[vital barn]

the WE Librarius, from Kharn's POV in Betrayer

[paper bluff]

Also psyker ages can vary

[pastel rampart]

Space marines live for an incredibly long time. Functionally immortal.

[gray basalt]

Damn Angron is so based

[hollow laurel]

I wonder, if we flip all the heretic-loyalist primarchs in loyalty, who does Guilli.. Oh no, he takes Magnus' place, doesn't he?

[charred bridge]

Theres living CSM in Dorn's concrete room still alive

[paper bluff]

More.... Russ

[gray basalt]

One does age to death in Pert's book

[hollow laurel]

Hold on, who's the other Tzeentchian LL traitor primarch?

Fair. But Russ goes to Khorne.

GoodLordMan ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) More.... Russ

[main pagoda]

there isnt one

[paper bluff]

The hrud are a special case

[paper bluff]

Actually.... khorne wanted sangunius

[gray basalt]

Ehhhh if you are functionally immortal then the amount of time getting in you shouldn't matter

[pastel rampart]

Technological/psychic aging is a different story because that's rapidly aging someone in a very short amount of time and that causes incredible body-destroying stress even for a space marine.

[hollow laurel]

Well, where does Russ go? I could see a case for Slaanesh, but not Tzeentch or Nurgle really.

[paper bluff]

You know about dornian heresy?

[hollow laurel]

A bit, not enough.

[gray basalt]

Also Guilliman Heresy

[vital barn]

my picks for the Chaos God Legions if you flip the loyalties are DA Tzeentch, Iron Hands Slaanesh, Fists Nurgle and BA (obviously) Khorne

[main pagoda]

undivided probably

[charred bridge]

Is that the reverse loyalist/traitor AU?

[gray basalt]

One of many

[main pagoda]

one of the two big ones

dornian is the big one that got the most attention

[gray basalt]

I only really like AUs that change all the characters to homebrewed ones

[vital barn]

I believe there was one of those that had "Tiran Osoros" as a primarch, riding a dinosaur around

[hollow laurel]

My brain just went to the Oops All Femme Primarchs™ AU.

[vital barn]

honestly a better use for the incredibly literal primarch name than Angron

[pastel rampart]

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gravius Ah right we do have a case of a space marine living outside the warp for 10,000 years.

[gray basalt]

Or blood bowl style stuff (don't know any of those for 40k, although I'm looking at making am AI where it's all professional wrestling)

[paper bluff]

The fate of every burning suffering erebus is a fun one

He's being kept alive by Logar and constantly burning him

[hollow laurel]

Magnus looks cool as fuck there. I think XV Legion is Magnus.

[gray basalt]

The AU I did had some femme Primarchs

Mine wasn't

[thin ibex]

Hmm anyone here also a pathfinder enjoyer? I was idly thinking about what classes the Primarchs would be

[tepid stratus]

Loyalist Fulgrim with the angel aesthetic goes hard

[hollow laurel]

Yes, XV Legion is Magnus.

[gray basalt]

I am

[tepid stratus]

Also damn nothing can make Kurze look like a good guy lol

[gray basalt]

1st or 2nd?

[thin ibex]

2nd

I'm split on Leman being a Barbarian or Ranger, I'm leaning ranger

[paper bluff]

Slaanesh Russ I could see and even Tzeech

[tepid stratus]

He's a ranger with enough charisma to trick people into thinking he's a barbarian

[vital barn]

alphy's Pale Spear looks kind of wack in that image, I prefer there being strange esoteric fleshbane weapons that aren't incredibly obvious necron phase blades

cool armour though

[paper bluff]

Ferrus manus is actually barbarian

[gray basalt]

Russ: Barb (fighter archetype) or vice versa

Khan: fighter

Guilliman: commander

Pert: Guardian (Inventor archetype)

Fulgrim: Swashbuckler

[thin ibex]

Lion El, Paladin?

[tepid stratus]

Ferrus is the freaky barbarian with points in crafting skills

[gray basalt]

Probably, or fighter

[tepid stratus]

Paladin but the Pathfinder equivalent of a crown or conquest paladin

[hollow laurel]

I guess I just don't see Tzeentch that much in him.

GoodLordMan ↩️

[(click to see attachment)](#1161696278640594954 message)

[gray basalt]

In his book he grabs a grenade out of the air and tossesnit back

[thin ibex]

Lorgar is almost certainly cleric

[gray basalt]

Yes

[paper bluff]

Bard

[gray basalt]

Magnus is wizard

[tepid stratus]

Lorgar IMO is cleric/witch

[hollow laurel]

I can see Slaanesh though, like, for his love of drink and all.

Josie | System at 63 ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) I guess I just don't see Tzeentch that much in him. 📎

[tepid stratus]

Erebus is full witch since his relationship is more transactional

[gray basalt]

With Rogue archetype

[thin ibex]

I could also see Leman being an exemplar, but like, all of them are sort of exemplars so I'm ditching that

[tepid stratus]

He's a showman too. His whole deal is an act

[gray basalt]

Erebus has the tendency to pop out of nowhere and stab someone

[thin ibex]

Fulgrim, a very high statted bard

[paper bluff]

Russ could fall as each for the exact same reasons magnus would and that he be trying to save his legion but rather than from the flesh change, it would be russ, trying to bring back the people that he's lost

[gray basalt]

Horus is kind of a super build but ultimately I think he is commander

[tepid stratus]

Fulgrim in D&D terms is a sword bard. Not as familiar with Pathfinder Barr to say tho

[gray basalt]

Swashbuckler

They can do performance to sword fight better

I honestly don't know with Morty probably guardian

A&O are investigator and Thaumaturge but they switch character sheets when you aren't looking

Vulkan is absolutely Guardian

[thin ibex]

Purty could also be an Inventor

[gray basalt]

Corax is rogue obvi

[thin ibex]

Morty is a fighter, at least pre Nurgle

[gray basalt]

Curze is tough tho

[thin ibex]

Just hard invested into survival feats

[gray basalt]

He actually isn't that good at fighting

[gray basalt]

That's fair

That's why I put Guardian

[thin ibex]

Curze I kinda wanna say swashbuckler but maybe rogue? Lot of ways to build a rogue

[gray basalt]

Truth

Swash with the demoralize feats is a great shout tho

Oh yea bird man

Paladin

[thin ibex]

Dorn... guardian feels default, but I wonder if anything better represents his brand of stubbornness

[charred bridge]

Most accurate cover for this book
https://www.rxddit.com/r/Grimdank/s/N34tSPWseD

[gray basalt]

Ofc I forgot my least favorite guy

Dorn is Guardian (Inventor archetype), while Pert is Inventor (Guardian archetype)

[thin ibex]

argument to be made for barbarian superstition instinct?

[charred bridge]

Didnt daemon primarch morty lose to regular ol Khan (and his now dead friends)

Dude had the biggest advantage and were it anyone else should have stomped a regular primarch

[gray basalt]

Yes

Now to be fair Khan is arguably one of the best duelists among the Primarchs

The 30k rules don't reflect that but the lore does

[gray basalt]

And no he loses to quite a few loyalists

[thin ibex]

iirc fulgrim IS the best duelist? Barring Sanguinius who is best at everything

[charred bridge]

Yea morty sucks at righting

[gray basalt]

Dorn, Lion, Sang, Khan ofc, maybe even Guilliman

[gray basalt]

Lion, Horus, Sang, Fulgrim, Russ, and Khan are all in the running

[charred bridge]

Isnt Gulliman not good at front lines hes mostly an excellent strategists and logistics guy

[thin ibex]

Dorn was like the sleeper kind duelist apparently, he didn't really make it a thing

[gray basalt]

Most people dismiss Khan tho

[thin ibex]

Horus was the other "good at everything" primarch

[charred bridge]

Thats lore accurate

[thin ibex]

Sang tends to just be the default most bestest at everything

[gray basalt]

Yes but he has the "Oh I get it now" thing Dark Souls players do

So if he fought Morty long enough he'd probably win eventually

[charred bridge]

Khan didnt care to broadfast his victories he just came in, took planets, then left without even saying he was there before even like the message carriers did

[gray basalt]

Yes

[gray basalt]

Lion is the third

[thin ibex]

Khan preferred people underestimate him anyway

[charred bridge]

To clarify, Morty losing to Khan as a daemon primarch just shows that despite his massive advantage cause daemon primarches were a new concept, he lost cause Morty is a bad fighter. If it were say Fulgrim then Khan would have definitely lost

[charred bridge]

Something something Sun Tzu

[thin ibex]

Lion i think liked to think he was good at everything, but he was not the best logistician or statesmen; I honestly feel like thats one of the bigger things that Horus was better htan him at

[gray basalt]

I disagree on this but only bc Khan is certain he can beat Fulgrim

[thin ibex]

Even though most of the primarchs were surprised that the lion or sanguinius didn't become warmaster, I do think that Horus had more charisma and statecraft than the lion

[charred bridge]

Did he really? Ok I might change my mind

[gray basalt]

He says he can they never actually fight

[thin ibex]

I think Khan is certain he can beat fulgrim because fulgrim's ego can get in the way of his skill. I think Fulgrim is a better swordsman and duelist than the Khan, but he doesn't have the Khan's measure, and the Khan is faster. Khan loses in a drawn out fight

[pastel rampart]

Yeah like the big thing about Robby G is that he's always thinking about at least 5 different things at once so he has a hard time focusing because he can't just turn the logistics side of his brain off or anything, but it's been noted that if he did focus on it he'd be a terrifying duelist.

[gray basalt]

Khan does decapitate a Keeper of Secrets tho

[hollow laurel]

BTW, do you folks think we might see a Neo-Volkite Rifle?

[main pagoda]

the khan and deamon morty fight is also abit silly

[gray basalt]

It was

[charred bridge]

That sounds like ADHD the primarch

[pastel rampart]

Because it is!

[thin ibex]

Dorn feels like the kind that wins because he's just like, the least ostentatious duelist in history, and he wins on maximum fundamentals

[gray basalt]

I wish Chris had more time to work on that fight

[pastel rampart]

Dorn's the motherfucker who learned that guard counters are a thing and just waits for an opening.

[gray basalt]

Tbf all the Primarchs have a multitude of undiagnosed mental quirks

[charred bridge]

He did beat Alpharius (?)

And Alpharius had like 2 of his guys with him

[gray basalt]

And (SoT spoilers) ||Fulgrim||

[desert jay]

They should've just put all 18 guys in a thunderdome instead of having a million-strong war over it

[thin ibex]

I know the physically strongest set were Vulkan, Angron, and Leman, with Vulkan being strongly at the top of raw power

[gray basalt]

They should put all 18 guys into a wrestling ring and see who goes to Terramania

[thin ibex]

which is crazy, makes you think of how strong vulkan was, and also what did he do to train

[pastel rampart]

Vulkan can flip a rhino one-handed so he wins the pure strength category.

[thin ibex]

i guess not was, he's still around somewhere

probably al ittle waaaagh crazy

[desert jay]

Like it's not even like half of the huge-ass war doesn't come down to duels anyway

[charred bridge]

Guy would like be weight lifting dreadnoughts

[thin ibex]

instead of barbells he just benching two dreads

[gray basalt]

He ripped a land raider in half with just his hands

[pastel rampart]

Yeah lol

[gray basalt]

But Angron lifting a titan contends with that

[thin ibex]

Marine: "Wheres the door?"
Vulkan: "Doesn't matter, I'm going in"

Angron/Vulkan wrestling matches would have been wild

[gray basalt]

I'm telling y'all a blood bowl-esque wrestling skirmish game would slap

[thin ibex]

I always feel like, maybe because of how the narrative frames them; that Leman and Lion are pretty much evenly matched in most things and its really a matter of the day and time of the contest that decides who comes out on top

[pastel rampart]

He didn't really lift it so much as stop it from crushing him and Lorgar.

[charred bridge]

Bloodbowl Primarchs?

[gray basalt]

That's fair

[gray basalt]

It's blood bowl-esque in the sense it's an alternate universe where instead of war they use a sport to solve problems, it'd be professional wrestling this time around tho

[charred bridge]

child's card game

[pastel rampart]

This was also during the shadow crusade where he was already starting to take some of that Chaos Juice™ (or probably, I guess) so I think that's a factor there.

[gray basalt]

Imagine Lion in a macho man suit elbow dropping Angron from the top rope

[charred bridge]

In true WWE fashion Vulkan is back from the dead

[gray basalt]

EXACTLY

[vital barn]

Fulgrim is meant to be "the duelist", he even has "Sublime Swordsman" as his special rule, but about half the primarchs are "the superlative super mega pro incarnate form of violence" or what have you so it doesn't really matter narratively, he gets beaten up by the rage monsters all the same

Lion, Russ, Horus, Fulgrim, Angron and Sangy are all tied at WS8 in-game, except Demon Horus who is just way stronger than anyone else

[desert jay]

Actually now that Death and the End is out and complete, what’re the odds of an Emperor model?

[vital barn]

Fulgrim is faster than the Khan on the tabletop but only when he was the one who charged, otherwise dead heat

[pastel rampart]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/722865032391819305/1418039140255142019/image0468799456197648285451.png?ex=68ccab5c&is=68cb59dc&hm=2c5474b78864d82e3179cf44fcf8b608ba69aa58c5428de9f9274f9f6766bc0a&

[vital barn]

which makes sense, "lightning-fast duelists" is the EC's entire thing

[thin ibex]

Being good at duels doesn't mean you're the best at fighting or the best warrior. It just means you're good at duels

[pastel rampart]

Yeah.

It doesn't mean you know how to wage war.

[past sphinx]

nonsense we will simply fight the enemy one at a time!

just in two single file lines

[untold swallow]

Okay this is a long shot but does anyone wanna play in a Wrath and Glory game I would run

I would like to play a gmpc because I have been blueballed to play as a player like three times, but if that is a dealbreaker and I otherwise have interest I will drop that lol

[tepid stratus]

Which is part of the tragedy because pre fall the EC where good at waging war

Being hyper talented Jack of all trades was part of the identity before shit started getting bad with the laer blade

And lucius being Lucius

[vital barn]

sure, but we were just talking about Primarch 1v1s, in which case "being good at duels" should in fact mean you win those

[sour sequoia]

I mean lets be real black library writers also don't conceptualize of war beyond Duel With A Bunch Of Guys In The Background

it'll also mean win the war

[upper canopy]

One time it did matter

Grimgor once dueled a Chaos Lord for so long he forgot to command his army and lost the battle as a result

even though he won the duel

[rocky shale]

Potentially but im scheduling difficult lol

[untold swallow]

zamb

[vital barn]

I have never tried Wrath and Glory

how does it compare in crunch to the old FFG games?

[rocky shale]

Tragically employed and also in other games

[untold swallow]

It's less complex

[upper canopy]

It is mechanically completely different, focusing on dicepools vs d100s

More often you are using abilities in combat instead of a basic set of actions

and the idea is to make more of a "hero unit"

[dawn mesa]

I think its really neat how the Legion was very much doomed with or without the blade. Chaos made it flashy, but they were cracking hard in the lore.

[west zealot]

Have you read Harrowmaster? It's really really good

[vital barn]

I have not, I should

I've seen a few tidbits, I liked the gathered warbands arguing with each other over whether I Am Alpharius is overdone or not

and apparently they at least have the same units as the old Heresy-era AL

I wonder if a 40k AL army could use the models of a 30k force

impossible with good boy Marines, now

[west zealot]

That bit is incredibly funny

Esp becuase it gets refed later when Solomon has to stop one of the stooges from keeping on calling him "Lord Alpharius"

even better is iirc, the I am Alpharius group may also be the ones who claim to be loyalists? and are oding the hwole "Test htei mperoium tom akei t stornk" shctick?

[vital barn]

oh that's fun

I hear they fight some Admech, hopefully using tactics a tiny bit more comprehensive than the traditional Black Library "chaos uses scrapcode! it's super effective" deal that happens in about ten books

there are a tragic dearth of Admech fights that don't include either instant-victory scrapcode or the Mech forces being something like half a dozen Leman Russes for a whole forge world

[west zealot]

I believe they do.

[west zealot]

Mike Brooks is genuinely good for this - one of his ork novels is them invading a forge world, and while spoilers, they win, the admech gets a very good showing, you see exactly why they fail, and they still go down swinging and manage to evacuate a lot of people.

[vital barn]

I need to get to Brutal Kunning, yeah. I'm OK with losing, since Admech is fundamentally a third-line faction in the writing and as such gets kicked around more often than not, but I'd like a better show of things than that one story where Tau take over a "forge world" with three squads of battlesuits. I was expecting a reveal at the end that it was like outpost one of 72 or whatever, because it looked like a perfect setup for that stock trope of Tau writing, but there was none. RIP Forge World somethingsomething, evidently tried to go for command centre first and died to 6-pool before they could build units.

[thin ibex]

I'm a tau fan and that seems wack to me, but then warhammer be wack sometimes

Like a little too much glazing on that donut

[vital barn]

Individual Mechanicus units do pretty well - a few dozen Myrmidons went man for man with Sangy and the Sanguinary Guard in Titandeath, although they lost, the mech on Paramar kill a few dozen Lernaeans, although they lose, the Schism of Mars book has some absolutely great Mech fights although they only start genuinely pulling out Ws with demon engines rather than normal bots.

[vital barn]

Pretty classic "scifi writers can't do scale" honestly, I'm not that miffed but it was quite funny.

[thin ibex]

Slight Tangent but it made me think about how I liked the way the tau got portrayed in the... I think it was Cain book when the guard worked with them against the nids

[deft crest]

Remembering the one ork book on the forgeworld

[thin ibex]

Maybe it was a very small world in a literal sense

Whole forgeworld was like... Pluto sized or something

[deft crest]

The scale there felt pretty good.

[vital barn]

Deimos is a real forge world, albeit a small one, and they have proper armies

I can only assume it was a colonial expedition in the Damocles Gulf or something that was called "forge world" for prestige reasons and hasn't gotten the whole thing rolling yet

I can't complain too much, major forge worlds in actual campaign books are generally shown to be absolute bastards to take

Agripinaa has been under siege for approximately a century now, Ryza has been invaded about sixty times and most of the Heresy stuff on other forge worlds was limited to raids because a few thousand Marines generally couldn't hold territory on them

(with the exception of Mezoa, which was a major forge that apparently fielded about sixteen thousand chump thralls total, another case of Didn't Do A Fermi Estimate)

[pine matrix]

Shroud of Night has a fun bit with the AdMec where the space marine leading the defence is like "please turn off the teleporters so if the traitors take the oil platforms, they can't come here" and the Magos like "teleporting stuff is how we pray to the omnissiah, to turn them off would be sacrilege" which of course goes horribly wrong

[vital barn]

Yeah, that's your average space marine book techpriest

[desert jay]

I bet it was taking “a squad of Astartes can topple a world” Space Marine glazing and just pulling up the Tau equivalent

[thin ibex]

table performance aside, battlesuit pilots ARE supposed to be the Tau's best of the best

[vital barn]

I'm not sure it even has that much thought put into it, it was very much "we need a short story about [Tau Unit] fighting [Guard unit], get our cheapest guy"

who presumably rolled on a few sept/planet creation tables and decided it would be [Crisis Suits] fighting [Leman Russes] on [a Forge World]

[mental birch]

I'm assuming its taking a world in the same sense someone invades a hive world

Topples the upper spires and leaves everything under to their own devices

Nobody in the lower spires notices a change in management

[thin ibex]

Sounds like a classic montka maneuver

[upper bluff]

I'm sure you're right but now I want a story about the Tau conquering a forgeworld and trying to manage all the insanity of it. Earth Caste seeing the baby cloning room for the first time and trying to decide what to do with it 😨

Tau water caste trying to decide how to keep the lights on without having millions of people shovel promethium by hand

It's like trying to help your friend in Factorio

[deft crest]

"Listen I know it seems fucked up but I NEED to make sure that lake is used to feed steam so this artillery factory continues to function, If it DOESN'T function than we lose the uranium farm"

[thin ibex]

I'll be honest, tau take over a forge world, they're likely going to be doing a LOT of remodeling

[vital barn]

I am not sure they reliably have the resources for that, assuming a major forge with the various continent-sized factory cities

if there's anything the Mechanicum is almost unmatched at, it's moving a lot of heavy metal

you are not tearing all that down and putting up nice Tau blocks of flats on anything less than a multi-generational timescale, especially if you have the resources of the Tau Empire (substantial, but still strained) versus the 30k-era Imperium of Man, which took a century and a half to do the same to Terra with a truly ridiculous resource base

[charred bridge]

"The baby cloning is vital to make Cherubs go make sure the planets infrastructure functions"

"ok what are cherubs, I am sure we have a more effective substitute for them"

"baby servitors that"

"oh my Greater Good help us"

[thin ibex]

It wouldn't be quick, but I think they can. Would be a long earth caste project

[vital barn]

what's a Tau lifespan again?

[thin ibex]

And i don't think they're plan would be bulldozing and replacing.

It's like 70-90 years iirc

Not counting cryo

But also they're not above multi generational projects

Hell, that's kinda something they're good at

[charred bridge]

It's kind of the reason they advanced so fast, almost 0 internal conflict and practically perfect unity for any goal

[vital barn]

yeah, it's probably doable but that's almost as colossal a resource sink as conquering a Forge World in the first place

[charred bridge]

Even then, redoing a any hive world, let alone a forge world would take up so much resources and they're spread thin already

[vital barn]

it's something that would show up as a giant hot-spot on a map of the Tau Empire's economic activity, at the very least

(I believe they've conquered one forge world already, there was a comment about the IN losing access to a certain pattern of cyclonic torpedo that they liked to use against Nids in one of the books)

[thin ibex]

At least insofar as I've worked the fiction of my custom sept, the fire commander there actually chaffs at having to lead what is essentially an occupation force for the ongoing project of bringing the hive they're on up to tau standards of living. They're not working with a clean slate, rather they're modifying, installing, and utilizing drones

And it's slow going, she's likely not going to survive the project

[vital barn]

given the average population of a hive world I would be very surprised if her successor survived the project

[thin ibex]

Unless they cryo her for big actions

[desert jay]

Imagining Tau getting a hive world to use drones by convincing them there's actually a decapitated head inside running the thing

[vital barn]

I would also expect the budget for that to be a tiny bit inconsistent over a century-plus timespan in the current galactic conditions

given there have been at least two giant gigawars in Tau space over the last century

[thin ibex]

The water caste in this fiction are winning people over with the basics, full stomachs, leisure time, and clean environs; earth castes first big undertaking is getting a full survey of the hive. Often times these both need armed protection against imperial and chaos dissidents, and they found orks at the bottom levels

[floral herald]

Just put 3d printed skulls on them it makes them feel better

[thin ibex]

Some days, the commander wants to pull a Shadowsun and burn the hive, though she did it because of gsc

Other days it's a beautiful day to contribute to the greater good

[charred bridge]

How to stop hive citizens from destroying all of your robots

"it's uh not the abominable whatever it's a dead person"

mob lowers lastorches

[hard whale]

"If you really want to donate your remains to get bolted on top of a drone, I guess we can do that"

[vital barn]

two highly relevant images

[upper canopy]

Oh I know the artist for that first image I think

[charred bridge]

"I know it looks bad but the gue'vesa got violent when we suggested to bury or cremate one of their dead's remains and they're getting suspicious of the fake skulls we made.

Unrelated but big fan of Commander Farsight for using a mechsuit and deciding to go a in on melee

[rare turtle]

I may be looking for a faction that play like doom eternal. Go fast, get close, shotgun to the face, move on. Any sugestion ?

[pale narwhal]

World eaters is classic rip and tear with a few surprisingly good shooting units

[floral herald]

Emperor’s Children are like all short ranged shooting and fast melee

Very aggro fast moving playstyle

[rare turtle]

And on the loyalist side ?

[hollow laurel]

For 30 or 40?

[rare turtle]

40

but let's humour both ?

[vital barn]

in 30k there's a few variants of that, mostly depending on whether you want to shoot or stab

[hollow laurel]

Okay! Not too familiar with 30k but erm, for xenos there are Orkz and maybe a bitta 'Nids? Erm, and for Loyalist marines, there are White Scars maybe.

White Scars are very SPEED. Definitely.

[pale narwhal]

For loyalists I’d say salamanders and/or generic Firestorm astartes

Both like getting in close fast, shooting something up, maybe charging in

[vital barn]

Sons of Horus are the unquestioned masters of CQC shooting mixed with melee, and are reasonably fast. Emperor's Children are all about getting into melee, gutting the target and getting out again before they can hit back, World Eaters are about getting in there and trading punches directly to the liver until somone falls over.

White Scars are the fastest but not particularly inclined towards staying in close

[hollow laurel]

OH! Vlka Fenryka! The Space Wolves. They are THE melee loyalists.

[vital barn]

they do have jetbike lance cavalry, though, they're pretty sweet

well, the Blood Angels are, really

but the Space Wolves run faster

[rare turtle]

so what wouls be the Blood angel deal ? a more versatile version of the Space wolves ?

[hollow laurel]

Are Blood Angels melee?

[vital barn]

blood angels are all about the jump packs and melee combat, with a small side of flamethrowers

Space Wolves are good at getting to melee but gain no particular bonuses once they're there

other than some nice alternate power weapons

[floral herald]

Broadly yes

[thin ibex]

Doom guy vibes? Grey knights

[floral herald]

But in general they’re Fast

[rocky shale]

The differences between the loyalists is fairly small tbh

[floral herald]

Yeah

[thin ibex]

Custodes too

[rare turtle]

more like dom guy gameplay

[floral herald]

It’s not like the real old days

[vital barn]

the 30k doomguys are probably Sons of Horus

[rare turtle]

(you had me at jump pack

[hollow laurel]

Also that's a point, if you want magic-wielding daemon hunters, Grey Knights.

[vital barn]

drop in the Justaerin, shoot/punch shoot/punch shoot/punch until everything dies

[rocky shale]

Blood angels are jetpack fast, wolves are running fast, white scars are bike fast

[vital barn]

Blood Angels also good

[rocky shale]

BA do suffer from the new sanguinary guard having those goofy ass winglets

[thin ibex]

Space wolves play well into "go fast, get glory kills"

[vital barn]

they also have a dreadnought with a jump pack, which is hilarious

[hollow laurel]

Sorry, jump Dreadnought?

[rare turtle]

i'll probably run a sucessor chapter then lol)

[vital barn]

30k Sanguinary Guard lose the winglets

[thin ibex]

The joke answer is ultra marines because Malum Caedo exists

[vital barn]

the old Guard (pun intended)

[hollow laurel]

Holy shit, power greatsword.

[rocky shale]

In terms of rules there's no difference really

[hollow laurel]

Why can't we have that in 40k?

[rare turtle]

but the drip

[thin ibex]

Carcaradons also have a bit of the doom vibe

[rocky shale]

You're either in the blood angels codex or the space marine codex basically

[vital barn]

because games workshop decided in 8th and 9th that wargear options are the devil, I think

[rare turtle]

either Flesh (riper and) tearer, Atlantean sper (i like fishs) or a custome one

[hollow laurel]

Also, my favourite headpiece attachment by far is the White Scars' tuft thing.

Can we please have HH3e-level wargear in 11e please?

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) because games workshop decided in 8th and 9th that wargear options are the devil, I think

[vital barn]

it's one-use, it's more a dreadnought with a JATO booster

but it's fun

[hollow laurel]

Now my brain is going to jump Termies and a fic I half-wrote again.

[floral herald]

BA also had a jump librarian dreadnought

But I don’t think they have had one for several editions

[hollow laurel]

Like, I'm sorry, but multilas and power claw Termie with a jump pack sounds fun.

[floral herald]

It’s funny to imagine since iirc it just like, telekinetically threw itself across the battlefield

[main pagoda]

the jump was via wings of sangy PP

[thin ibex]

Doomguy gameplay might be more of an army build/ detachment thing

[main pagoda]

it was peak

[hollow laurel]

Then again that might break the meta.

Josie | System at 63 ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) Like, I'm sorry, but multilas and power claw Termie with a jump pack sounds fun.

[main pagoda]

https://tenor.com/view/star-wars-c3po-oh-they-fly-now-they-fly-now-fly-gif-25032461

[vital barn]

the real 30k Doomguys are the Dawnbreakers

note the utterly colossal double-barrelled arm guns

[floral herald]

And it looked like this

[thin ibex]

Wouldn't custodes be doomguy in 30k too?

Or are they not a thing

[vital barn]

they have a full army list and a whole bunch of unique 30k gear

but they're heavy infantry, they're not agile

bikers aside

if you want to slog and punch and shotgun, either Custodes termies or Sons of Horus Justaerin, best to ever do it

[vital barn]

they're Deep Strike rather than Jump Pack per se, but the 30k Night Lords had essentially this in the Contekar

[rocky shale]

10th tried to simplify a lot of things like thag on purpose

[vital barn]

power claw, chainblades and your choice of Volkite HMG or Heavy Flamer

[hollow laurel]

Fair enough.

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) power claws and your choice of Volkite HMG and Heavy Flamer

I mean, I want jump because. Tactical mobility, not operational.

[rocky shale]

Especially because xenos don't really have the ten trillion options of imperium lore

[vital barn]

oh, Ursarax then

[floral herald]

HH is also simpler since most of the wargear list is shared across basically every army

[hollow laurel]

Oh?

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) oh, Ursarax then

Oh God it's those guys.

[floral herald]

I think the weirdest is probably admech since they have a bunch of zany rayguns with complicated names and don’t share em

[hollow laurel]

Actually the Thallax is more their style.

[vital barn]

they do have guns, the glowing chest rings are Volkite muzzles

they are known to bear hug targets and then blast them in the face, hence the name

8e went full on NO WARGEAR ALLOWED, they've started bringing some of it back for 10th

[hollow laurel]

Fair.

[vital barn]

I don't think "all your wargear options are now distinct stratagems" was very popular

especially since it meant that only important deathstar units with fifty buffs stacked on them got to use any of it

[hollow laurel]

I mean, I played 8e and 9e, and I honestly feel like the wargear options went down in 10th.

[vital barn]

basic troops did not warrant a use of the Vox strat

[hollow laurel]

But IDK, maybe I'm missing something.

[vital barn]

also hot shit this edition, they all get special weapons if they want

fear the jump pack multimeltas

[hollow laurel]

Do they get heavy bolters?

Or other such HMG option.

[vital barn]

no, but their stock Lightning Guns have a very similar statline and weight class

the spooky admech version of a multilaser/heavy bolter squad HMG

[hollow laurel]

Hm. Interesting.

[vital barn]

chain bayonets optional

range is nothing to write home about but you make some sacrifices to enable flight

general mechanicum doctrine seems to be to keep solid-shot weapons out of the basic infantry supply line

Thralls, Thallax and Ursarax are all melee or energy weapons only

[floral herald]

9e had more going on than 10e

10e is pretty streamlined

[vital barn]

since they're all equipped with either backpack power packs or proper reactors anyway, so may as well run an energy weapon from them instead of requiring bullets

Cybernetica bots, Myrmidons, vehicles and the higher-quality retinues start introducing weapons with ammo again

the Secutors go a tiny bit overboard with this, in my book

"Maxima Bolters" apparently, because subtlety is dead

[thin ibex]

10e intentionally reduced the amount going on and also made things more survivable in general

8 and 9 were hyperlethal with mountains of attacks and dice

Everything and the kitchen sink style

[vital barn]

admittedly, not much of that was because of access to a list of different combi-weapons as opposed to One Warhammerillion Stratagems

[main pagoda]

yeah the hyperlethality also lead to the bandaids such as armour of contempt which just made the game so much worse

[floral herald]

Yeah clamping down on stratagems was a bigger and more important thing

[rocky shale]

40k is a game with xenos and so I think it makes sense to be a little less obsessed with minutae of space marine accessories

Compared to 30k

[vital barn]

Crisis Suits, Archons, Autarchs, Warbosses/Meks and Hive Tyrants aside, I assume?

Tau especially used to love tooling up all those suits

[thin ibex]

Honestly the biggest achievement for 10th was turning off 1st turn victory

[rocky shale]

All those units still have above average customization compared to the rest of thier armies

[vital barn]

Hell, Crisis Suits still have half that stuff, they just had to split it into three datasheets in lieu of just having a wargear list

[thin ibex]

Honestly I had beef as a tau player because the choices were largely fake

Because the only real choice was spamming ion guns

[sour sequoia]

Come play GSC every unit is a wargear clusterfuck that flips their mechanical identity

[vital barn]

I got my Techpriest Dominus punched out by the Onager Gauntlet enough times to respect the oddball Tau gear

[sour sequoia]

You just also have to play GSC

[thin ibex]

Everything else was a self nerf

[vital barn]

I remember a lot of fusion in 7th

a few burst cannons

and then the occasional suicide squad with as many flamers as the suits could hold

[thin ibex]

In 8th and 9th they even had graduated points costs to incentivise not spamming one weapon. It was still better to bring one weapon

[vital barn]

for when you want to pick up the entire centre of a Nid line

[finite compass]

I keep trying to find these books but getting a paperback is like 200 dollars...

[rocky shale]

The datasheet splits in 10th are a good middle ground to avoid pointed wargear options

[finite compass]

It's like BL barely does physical books anymore

[thin ibex]

Doomballing with a huge set of CIB spamming crisis suits and using a lot of strats to erase anything in the game was the go to

[vital barn]

I took a look at 10e CSM earlier today to see if I could run my 30k Alpha Legion as them and thank god, at least a couple of these have wargear options

I can give a terminator a different gun!

praise the omnissiah, I get to make choices again

[thin ibex]

I like the 10e crisis splits tbh

[rocky shale]

Nobody was taking one of each random gun option anyways

[thin ibex]

Because there isn't just one good option and a bunch of fake ones

[vital barn]

Wall of Death did mean I saw a few holdout flamers in fusion suicide builds, since there was no Split Fire back then

so you dropped in, fogged a tank and then anything that tried to charge you ate a bunch of autohits

a full complement of meltas was overkill for almost anything in 7th, so you may as well sell your battlesuited lives a bit more dearly

[thin ibex]

The fusion missile coldstar was a thing in 8th/9th, a solo coldstar with 4 fusion guns

[vital barn]

Skitarii did stick to monoweapon squads, and the swap there absolutely ruined my army

"hey, you know all that time you spent trading bits to get decent Skitarii squads? fuck you, do it again"

nope, I choose Quit

(really they should have just had enough special weapons in the box, which they've gotten better at in the HH kits lately)

but in general I want to run My Dudes, I don't want to take the identikit Techpriest Dominus out of the box and go "yeah, he has one of the two guns that all Magi have for some reason and that nobody else gets to play with"

(although I kitbash all my Magi anyway, because I feel that each techpriest should be his or her own kind of freak by that rank)

[rocky shale]

In 40k or 30k?

[vital barn]

there are no Skitarii in 30k

[floral herald]

I do appreciate killing team making everything in the box an option and at least attempting to balance them against one another

[vital barn]

(yet, some may have been teased)

[floral herald]

Though some like flamers on gunners are pretty niche

[rocky shale]

Because theres quite a lot of guns on the 40 skitarii squads

[vital barn]

there are

[floral herald]

Flamers are in such a weird balance point for kill team

[vital barn]

but you used to get 2 in 5 or 3 in 10 special weapons from the list, so you could run three plasma, three arc or three arquebus, and people did

[floral herald]

They’re very good, but when competing with a melta or plasma hard to justify

[vital barn]

in 8th they decided that every squad had to have no more than one of each, invalidating every Skitarii army that didn't buy a ton of extra boxes to get more plasma guns rather than just trading or converting for them

[rocky shale]

I guess if you're that diehard wysiwyg then yeah?

[vital barn]

I'm not counts-asing all my infantry's basic guns that come in the box

if I've made a bunch of custom troopers, sure, but not totally stock wargear with totally stock kits, that's absurd

[rocky shale]

It's also like 8yr old beef

[vital barn]

especially with the number of models you had to run in a Skitarii army back then

I still can't use the squads I've got unless I go out and get myself more arc rifles and arquebi and then rearrange all the squads to be neat 10-mans because you used to build two melee/pistol alphas per 10-man box and they've changed the unit sizes every edition so far, so I consider it still very much extant

it is nice to have the data-tethers back, though

prime example of wargear that became a totally useless strat in 8th/9th and then made a return, much appreciated

man, 10e points costs are wild, I remember a Dominus being like 130-160 when I started out

Ironstriders and Dragoons are basically where they always were, at least

[tired cairn]

Is it ever team dependent (e.g. flamers are worth taking against non-elite teams)?

[floral herald]

It can be yeah

It’s hard to argue with plasma

But really numerous teams can make flamers better

[tired cairn]

People complained about the options in the box not matching options on the sheet. Then GW fixed in a very "not like this" sort of way

[finite compass]

This is why I dropped any interest in World Eaters

When the codex was written such that the only option you had for a non-special character lord was a dude on a Juggernaut. Because it's the alternate kit option for a special character, and they don't sell any others.

So want to use your old lord on foot? Too bad, fuck you.

[rocky shale]

Yeah idk who would think that GWs answer to this would be "oh we will just update every sprue with more guns"

[finite compass]

Terminator Lord? Too bad, fuck you.

The 3e cheese with sticking him on a bike?

Too bad, fuck you

The 10e codex improved it

...Now you have the option of lord on a juggernaut or completely different lord leading a pack of Eightbound and nothing else

I honestly miss when it was 'you need your opponent's permission to use special characters' instead of 'you need a Primarch to be meta'

[vital barn]

Mech admittedly didn't lose much in the way of wargear options purely because they didn't really have many in the first place, Skitarii just got scrambled every year or two for five years as one of three units in the army with more choices than "gun A or gun B"

[tired cairn]

Well, going forward they could have changed the designs (see Termagants getting 3 different special weapons instead of 3x3. Which annoys me for other reasons lol)

[tired cairn]

Hey! Sometime the Primarch is so bad no one takes it!

[vital barn]

they could also have either included more guns in the kit when they made it or written the wargear options such that they matched the kit originally, rather than launching them with a discontinuity, producing a whole string of formations and army rules that rewarded you for taking monoweapon squads and then abolishing them three years later

[finite compass]

I also want to start 30k

But I have stupid hangups

Like "I'd do my 40k army but it's the exact same colorscheme and that's boring"

Or "I really like the World Eaters, but I hate painting white"

[vital barn]

World Eaters at least have total license to go wild with the red paint

[finite compass]

Have you ever used the toothbrush method?

[vital barn]

I have not

[finite compass]

Take an old toothbrush, dip it in watered down red paint (or brown if you want to do mud effects on a tank or something) and flick the bristles at the model

[vital barn]

oh, yeah, I did that with an old base-paint brush instead

admittedly usually WE go from blue and white to red and white, which is less of an improvement here

[finite compass]

The 40k army in question is Word Bearers

So I already have red. 😛

I guess I could do them old-school word bearers and have them still in grey

[vital barn]

oh, in that case, Imperial Heralds armour

the slate grey looks great

[jaunty dawn]

The gray is fun

[vital barn]

as demonstrated by the Ashen Circle, who are having a solid time in 3e

[finite compass]

Also I love the like IDK what to call them

Arcane circles/star patterns

Like the bottom right

[vital barn]

ah, yes, the things that make me wish Lorgar had eaten his greens as a kid because his model is a tiny bit fiddly

[jaunty dawn]

Colchisian runes

[vital barn]

excellent look, quite hard to paint

he also has a slightly melted face, as do most characters from that hand-sculpted era

[finite compass]

Also red, but I was also looking at Thousand Sons

Also Night Lords, but lightning patterns

And I havent' found a group where I moved but where I was previously

Literally everybody that did 30k was either Iron Warriors or Night Lords

[vital barn]

there are universally lots of Iron Warriors

not sure about Night Lords

but the bitter boys are very popular, as are Sons of Horus

I do like the sea-green

[finite compass]

The sea green is cool.

For a while I was thinking of painting a 40k warband that still used the sea-green and bronze look

[jaunty dawn]

Every week I see ppl play 30k and the temptation grows and then I remember I dont have the time 😭

[finite compass]

Also I love Sons of Malice

But again, painting white

Also halved

[vital barn]

I still find it funny that Abbadon took over the legion and went "right, everyone needs to adopt MY colours now, I'm not swapping to green just because I'm no longer in charge of just the Justaerin"

[jaunty dawn]

I just want to set fire things with stone-y guys

[finite compass]

My biggest issue with the loyalist legions is all the ones that are interesting lore and ruleswise, I tend to hate the color scheme

Except Dark Angels, but what I'd want to do with them would be hard to paint

[vital barn]

I have similar gripes, mostly in the inverse - I like Space Wolves grey and red and their fun legion trait + special weapons, I dislike Space Wolves in general

[finite compass]

Like, they're flat black like a third of the other loyalists. Which is boring

But you can go ham with like the check patterns and knightly details, which is cool

[vital barn]

my Loyalist Marines are a rag-tag bunch of Death Guard and a few World Eaters from Istvaan III, since they have cool colours and cool lore

[hollow laurel]

Unfortunately I doubt that there's much that burns good in 30k.

Pennywen ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) I just want to set fire things with stone-y guys

[vital barn]

that just means you haven't brought enough flamers

there are some very good flamers

[finite compass]

I mean maybe if you're playing against SA

[jaunty dawn]

Everything burns when you use phosphex :)

[finite compass]

That's the other reason I like Dark Angels from a lore perspective

[hollow laurel]

Sure but I mean, LA are pretty damned tanky to that sorta stuff, yk?

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) there are some very good flamers

[finite compass]

"Welp, we've hit a roadblock. Wire back to Caliban and tell them to unlock the Man-Made Horrors Beyond Comprehension Vault."

[vital barn]

DA have plasma flamers, everyone has phosphex bombs and artillery and some of the higher-tech Saturnine gear has charged-particle projectors that fill the same role as flamers but have a much meaner statline

[hollow laurel]

Whereas I was thinking promethium flamers.

[vital barn]

the power armour also serves you in good stead until the Salamanders pyroclast squad hops out of a land raider and drops twenty S6 flamer templates on you with conventional flamers

eighty armour saves for you, marine boy

[finite compass]

I do love how every legion has unique weaponry though

[jaunty dawn]

The ashen circle flamer are also morale focused so like

[vital barn]

(this is generally regarded as overkill but it is very funny)

[finite compass]

Which is sometimes useless, sometimes hilarious

[jaunty dawn]

Only need one

[vital barn]

oh yeah, flamers universally make people run

[hollow laurel]

Or they could roll 20 rifles and just. Murk you.

[vital barn]

20-30 bolter shots is going to kill like two to three guys

[finite compass]

Alpha Legion specifically having 'fuck your power armor' bolter ammunition because of course the fucking Alpha Legion will have stockpiled that.

[vital barn]

20 pyroclast templates are going to wipe most of the entire 20-wound tactical or vet squad due to the wonders of flamer templates

and you can't charge those guys, you get the whole wall of death again

[hollow laurel]

How..?

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) 20 bolter shots is going to kill like two guys

[vital barn]

20 shots from 10 marines, hit on 3+, wound on 4+, armour save on 3+

20 x 0.67 x 0.5 x 0.33 = 2.22

[finite compass]

Vanilla Space Marine vs Space Marine shooting in midhammer/HH rules is typically like

"The firepower of the entire Battle of Stalingrad. The effectiveness of a blind hog looking for acorns."

[vital barn]

they are assisted in their desire to actually kill something by Fury of the Legion, so they'll get an extra shot per model while standing still, then charge in firing bolt pistols in volley fire if they're close enough

so 10 tacs working for it kill about 4 tacs before they hit melee

but you can't just stand at 24" range first rank fire second rank firing each other, that's what the heavy support is for

[hollow laurel]

I am. So confused.

[vital barn]

what do you expect them to be doing?

killing around 30-40% of an identical unit with a good shooting phase is not too absurd considering how many of these boys are trucking around and how many much scarier units there are

Tacs are still very basic troops

the flamers need to get stuck in there to score a bunch of autohits because their flamer templates will cover several models each, at which point they outmatch bolters significantly, but they're also completely harmless to anything outside 8" range, considerably more expensive and don't score as well

[hollow laurel]

I don't know. My brain is in the midst of

[vital barn]

if you want to set up and rinse marines with rifle fire, you want to either get yourselves some Legion Seekers, Recon Marines with their marksman rifles or the Alpha Legion/Sons of Horus, all of which have scarier armour-piercing bolter rounds

I always thought this was a fun detail, personally - the standard Space Marine loadout is set up to be extremely flexible in the kind of targets it can ruthlessly bully at the cost of effectiveness against its own kind, and this gets mentioned a few times as a contributing factor to the early Heresy battles being so incredibly brutal

the traditional Legion high-momentum shock assault slams into a wall of fellow power armour, stops dead and very rapidly turns into a grinding slog of chainswords and bolters in the mud and blood

[sour sequoia]

Misc laid out the math all at once but simplicity’s sake is that even 3+ into 3+ is less than 50% odds. We’re not even at armor saves yet

A lot of things are tougher than they look when 3+ into 3+ is even considered Good Odds

I scam people with similar playing a bunch of shitty guys, it turns out when you have to roll hit, wound, and save, a 20-man brick of neophytes gets really hard to kill efficiently

[untold swallow]

Necroposting but Inner Circle Companions didn't bring Calibanite Greatswords to the fray for you to forget them like this 😔

[thin ibex]

isnt this the "there are too many kroot to kill" problem for tau's current best detach?

tangentially, im kind of surprised we've nver gotten a kroot v space wolf scout hunter v hunter themed face off

[pale narwhal]

Vaguely, yeah

Spamming kroot blocks, rampagers charging and handing out mortals, and then backed up by the pretty solid tau antitank

[vital barn]

honestly nice to see kroot winning

they had a bad time back when I was playing tons

[pale narwhal]

Lots of retcad and expcad staples (crisis suits, farsight, riptides) either got buffs or points drops so we might see a slight change there

[west zealot]

Ebooks is the way to go here

[finite compass]

Blech

[untold swallow]

https://youtu.be/2o5QMSEtsSg

[reef pagoda]

the craving to start valorous heart sisters is strong but i need somewhere to put mah models

[untold swallow]

ayo why tf is Vulkan Jamaican in this <XDDDD