Warhammer and Such

[vital barn]

Titanicus and Titandeath show their tactics off very well

at one point Sangy boards an Imperator Titan with the whole Sanguinary Guard and they have one hell of a punch-up with Darkmech myrmidons, it's cool as hell

[main pagoda]

titandeath is peak mechaporn

[thin ibex]

What tau have on titans is precision and better firepower to scale ratios. The actual tactic is scaling assets in field and coordinating them. Titans talk a lot of smack, but even they can be brought down by coordinated railgun and missile strikes.

[vital barn]

presumably you could shoot a nova cannon at the titans and remove them from existence, but that also does bad stuff to the entire planet

[vital barn]

at the same time, Titans are extremely good at murdering huge piles of normal military assets, there is a reason people keep building so many Titan-Killer Superheavies

[thin ibex]

Titan sizing is kind of wacky though, because on one hand you're supposed to believe entire infantry engagements happen inside of its legs or torso, but also if you look at the canonical scale for the largest ones, those engagements must be having had by like individuals rather than squad

[vital barn]

what's the comment from Titanicus? "we're engaging about two hundred armoured vehicles, no stress yet" or something to that effect

Tau are rather nastier than Chaos Marines, but they're not DAOT magitech

[thin ibex]

Sure but Tau armor doesn't engage the way that any other faction does, they're not running predators, Spartans, leman russ, or what have you down the center in a brawling formation

[vital barn]

you are going to need a lot of Mantas or Tigersharks to fight a full battleline maniple of 4-5 battle titans, and the Tau fleet doesn't actually have that many of them, you get what, six mantas per large carrier?

they're very nearly titan-sized assets themselves

[thin ibex]

Also, we have canonical examples of leman russ vanquishers felling titans, land raiders were used in coordination to fight titans

[vital barn]

we also have a great number of canonical examples of "shadowsword squadron fucked up the ambush at extreme range, volcano cannons happened, superheavy tanks were history"

[thin ibex]

One thing you can generally rely on is that tau will probably have slightly more Mantas in a war zone than titan legions have titans in the same one, considering the rarity and value of each one in a crusade

[upper bluff]

Also to add onto the sanguinary guard storming an imperator it probably wouldn't be too too hard to get crisis suits onto one

[vital barn]

there's a reason the quote that opens Titanicus states that the things that kill titans are "Folly, Hubris and another of its own kind" in descending order

they're not invincible, but they are very big, very scary and have actual sensible doctrines, and I don't think you can just go "yeah, the tau no diff the titan legions, they should have just spammed thunderhawks at Legio Mortis during the heresy"

[thin ibex]

The strengths of a titan are not solely solved by a peer sized giant robot. Its helped by the existence of Tau weaponry being peer and near peer on much smaller platforms

My point this whole time wasn't that tau no dif titans? It's that their combat doctrine makes way more sense leveraging effective weapons on target than trying to build peer robots to brawl it out. We have examples of Tau air based firepower being functional as a titan answer. An answer does not mean they just blip the titan

It means they have an asset to leverage that works

[rocky shale]

Kroot titan plz

[vital barn]

A Tau hammerhead railgun is of essentially identical statline to an Imperial neutron laser, which is these days a Mechanicus tank gun but in 30k was a standard tank destroyer weapon fielded on both Space Marine and Solar Auxilia tank destroyers and Mechanicum battle automata. They're peer guns to the kind of things titans throw around, but only when you scale them up to something vaguely approaching the same size and expense, if not construction time because Titans are built extremely slowly.

[main pagoda]

the existance of the stormsurge or tau nar doesnt negate the airpower though

[vital barn]

I'm not saying the big flyer doctrine isn't sensible for Tau, I love the tau superheavy flyers and I kind of want one despite not generally liking Tau that much

[main pagoda]

you dont just stop developing counter measures because you have something that works good enough

[vital barn]

the Manta is gorgeous

but if you sortie a big fleet of tigersharks and mantas to fight a titan maniple you are going to have something that looks a lot like a Titan fight at a 45 degree angle

these are Titan-scale assets themselves, or the kind of almost-as-large unit that you see fielded in engine wars in both ground and orbital form

Knights Atrapos, Porphyrions, Shadowsword platoons

[thin ibex]

I do also think tau don't get much work trading fire against Titan big guns, rather they likely commit to what looks like hit and run tactics but at scale, limiting maximum risk exposure at the cost of re fire rate

[pastel rampart]

Scaled-down warsphere would be cool actually.

[thin ibex]

Risking titan Secondaries is far more acceptable that a titan primary

[vital barn]

this is generally what you do to fight Titans with Knights, too, and it's still a risky and high-loss endeavour

[main pagoda]

yeah i think the benefit the tau have is they can to an extent mass produce stormsurges

[vital barn]

Knights are much slower, but they can also use cover with rather more effectiveness

Stormsurges are slightly below Knight class, I would not like to spam them at a titan line. I think the airpower is a far better idea in general, although big suit is nice to have for other things.

[thin ibex]

I just don't think the calculus of tau doctrine to engage titans is improved by building large scale, weapon platform mechs that dont have void shields and can't outrange their intended target

Unless they just build a fuck ton more of them

To take notes from ork titan fighting doctrine

[main pagoda]

well in the first engagement the stormsurges have they have made 200 of the things which is nothing to turn your nose at

[vital barn]

the Taunar is I think the largest unit that makes sense, because if the enemy don't have Titans/Gargants then they can just plaster every smaller armoured vehicle on the field

[main pagoda]

thats several knight houses and legios worth

[thin ibex]

Wazdakka Gutsmek being an outlier and not counted

[vital barn]

Orks definitely build a fuckton of titan-class assets, they love that shit

it's like an ork but really big

[thin ibex]

Yeah ork titans come in numbers and they have no problems trading at like a 10 to 1 ratio

[vital barn]

that's about one decent-sized knight household, knights are actually quite easy to build

they probably have a lot more stormsurges now, though

[thin ibex]

Ork anti titan bikers are currently tracked at a count of 1.

[main pagoda]

yeah this was in a deathwatch book

DW/WS 4th company (?) lead a strike on the research base

[thin ibex]

I don't think stormsurges are a standard part of a Cadre Armory tbh, I could be wrong, but it doesn't transport as well for a Cadre mobile coordination

[vital barn]

mature knight households that haven't been recently fucked up are anywhere between low to mid triple digits of knights, I think, rarely smaller

[thin ibex]

I think they're coalition level assets

[main pagoda]

yeah

[vital barn]

to be fair, even gargants aren't being routinely rolled out at the division scale

I think having only a few stormsurges at most in a unit that size is perfectly reasonable

[main pagoda]

they did basically take a bunch of rookie gunners and paired them up with veteran crisis and broadside pilots cross sept initially

[thin ibex]

Generally, unless there Intel gives them that they'll be expecting big enough targets, I imagine coordinated seeker missile strikes and support from the air caste is an effective answer for more limited large scale threats

[vital barn]

aren't seeker missiles basically Hunter-Killers but with actually good guidance?

[main pagoda]

its like shadowswords right they might be organised at a regimental level but broken down to individual platoons and attached to a larger formation where they are going to be need

[vital barn]

solid for most armour, I'd imagine, it's not like most people are rolling around with superheavy tanks or Land Raiders

and if they have like 1-2 you can get 'em with the hammerheads, which are still very competent at punching up against "normal" superheavies

[thin ibex]

Yeah, though lore wise they are also much longer ranged, Sky Rays and some air assets keep their seekers on standby to be independently targeted via markerlights and then they have enough limited ai to navigate to strike the lased target

[vital barn]

yeah, but they're not like, deathstrikes or krakens

[thin ibex]

Oh no not at all

[vital barn]

I miss the kraken missile

[thin ibex]

They're powerful though, they get used in space combat too

[vital barn]

my beloved horus heresy 1-2e staple

[thin ibex]

Tau navies use seekers as extremely long range strike packages

[vital barn]

40k space fighters oscillate wildly between 70m long wet-navy destroyers and normal atmo planes with WW2-style armament, so the Tau using their normal anti-leman-russ missiles as void ordnance seems pretty reasonable compared to that

[thin ibex]

It's a fitting level of goofy i think. Seekers occupy a much larger amount of real estate in the tau Armory, in terms of use across all fields

[vital barn]

somehow you can crew both a 70m long Fury starfighter and a Leman Russ with five guys

it's just that in the voidcraft one of those five guys is an astropath instead of an enginseer

[thin ibex]

Probably because guided precision missiles that also avoid point defense fire and have good effect on almost all armor types is just tasty

[vital barn]

the Imperium also puts lascannons everywhere, so this fits

lascannons are just good

so are Hellstrikes, which I believe actually have guidance

from what I recall, Tau void fighters in BFG were extremely strong but also showed up in about a fifth the numbers, a big carrier got like six mantas

[thin ibex]

I think the sort of doctrine in play for Tau is that infantry don't bring anti armor hardware, they just bring markerlights and in-field seeker assets get engaged at need. And I'm guessing the only reason this didn't change for urban warfare is that the seeker is highly maneuverable

[vital barn]

since the manta kind of did everything, it was the cargo carrier, the planetary lander, the spooky-gunship-loitering-air-support, the dogfighter....

meanwhile necrons were necrons and got Mildly Silly Planes

[thin ibex]

I have to imagine that part of that is tau space combat design is/ was a little incomplete lol, mantas doing everything seems like a poor plan

[vital barn]

I kind of liked BFG necrons being Fuck You We Win, it was a nice change of pace, but the various alternate win conditions the other factions got against them tended to be really jank

they do do everything passably well, they just have a slight issue of "well, four of the mantas are landing a battalion, so we now have two voidcraft total"

[mental birch]

Matas were the heavy bombers

Lol

[thin ibex]

I do think, at least in the modern era, tigersharks and barracudas are the work horse fighters

[mental birch]

Resin 🙁

Rip razorshark

Sunshark

[vital barn]

more factions should have big hovering flyers covered in many guns, it's a great aesthetic

back in HH1e there was a rule that let Mechanicum take any superheavy from an imperial armour book to represent all their funky stuff and I was so tempted to make some horrible monstrosity and use the manta rules

[thin ibex]

Razorsharks and sunsharks I think are ground strike fighters rather than generalists, but id have to look it up

[vital barn]

5000 dual heavy bolter blisters

I think they might be a bit small for space combat

given the Fury is 50-70m long depending on source

I do want to know what the standard darkmech space fighter is these days, because the HH darkmech were going up against space marine archaeotech ships with huge clouds of 100m-long Matrix squiddies which clamped onto ships and injected battle-automata

they have to have made some funky stuff since

[thin ibex]

I'm still sad that we never got a smaller close support flier for tau, it was always kept to full motion fighters that were loitering for strafing runs

I wouldn't have been mad if we even just got a big hover drone

[mental birch]

We dis

Did

It then got legended

[thin ibex]

We had remora but those were like mini jets with seeker missiles

And we had heavy gun drones

But im talking like a valkyrie sized hover flier

[mental birch]

Ahhhh

[vital barn]

the Darkmech got their fleet wrecked in that battle but to be fair they were up against a Gloriana-class, which is the 30km nonsense machine that primarchs supposedly use as their flagships, and they put it in port for the rest of the war with battle damage

so evidently just ripping off The Matrix kind of works

the glorianas change size as the writer requires, because sometimes they're normal battle-barges and sometimes they're extremely not

[thin ibex]

They're just like the bigger titans fr fr lol

[vital barn]

me counting the losses of like half the HH stuff

I think I personally have killed more Telemon dreads on the tabletop than actually exist, since the Emperor supposedly handmade at least one plate of each Telemon

[thin ibex]

How big is it? An entire company lives in its foot! But also it's foot couldn't possibly have that many combatants in it and still have the hardware of being a foot

Hey they die and then the custodes drag back the wreck

[vital barn]

after every battle there's a grabby hands competition between the remaining custard creams and all my 30k magi, who if nothing else have a lot more hands per guy

[thin ibex]

Though it is a bit funny, custodes skirmishes should canonically have like no casualties. But a proper game will often leave you with scraps

[vital barn]

after they made them a real army they started documenting vaguely plausible casualties in battles against near-peer forces, actually

it's just that previously it was all novels

[thin ibex]

Much like tau doctrine is supposed to be risk averse for its personnel and work to deliver as much firepower and precision and use as many force multipliers as possible; but most games I win with tau leave be with less than half my army

[vital barn]

they didn't count all the automata, but hey, I can believe that several thousand killbots plus waves of chaff took out 1200-ish marines and custodes

[thin ibex]

Did the dark Mechanicus give no shits about the no AI thing?

[vital barn]

they gave about 30% of previous shit levels

because if you let the true Great Crusade silica animus out it eats you even if you're down with chaos

[thin ibex]

Or I guess I should say do, they're still around if not well defined in 40k era

[mental birch]

Yeah lol I lose like 20 ish battlesuits a game

[vital barn]

but they made some horrible messed up stalker things that went War of the Worlds on people

[mental birch]

They adorable

I have way too mamy

Mamy

Many

[thin ibex]

I'm guessing their relationship with AI was not really one of subservience but rather unleashing it on stuff

[vital barn]

I have not played Legions Imperialis but they do look great

genuine fuck-the-organics silica animus is something basically everyone teams up to fight

[thin ibex]

Oh they exist as models? What do i Google to look at em?

[vital barn]

there's a great great crusade battle in the black books where the Space Wolves and a few divisions of Skitarii get seriously fucked up by something that's basically a living metal version of the Edge of Tomorrow aliens without the time travel

[mental birch]

Legion imperialis

[vital barn]

don't fuck with the AI warminds

darkmech stalker

[vital barn]

the little dudes in the back are basically upgunned versions of these dudes, for scale

[thin ibex]

Wait so how big is this thing? Looks about Dreadnought scale but taller?

[vital barn]

techmarine for scale

[mental birch]

Eeer

Hmmm

In this system dreads

[vital barn]

the little carapace dudes under the image of the stalker are basically the same size as the bots standing next to the techmarine in my photo

[mental birch]

Go up to the first joint?

[vital barn]

but stalkers come in basically random sizes

some of them are comically hueg

[mental birch]

Waitno I lie

[thin ibex]

Oh huh, the art misc posted had me thinking about the little guys in the back being marines sized

[vital barn]

ah here we are

[thin ibex]

Oh they're like all kinds of sizes

[vital barn]

they're about marine-sized, the stalker is the height of the armiger

[mental birch]

It's on a 50mm base

[vital barn]

and then the big stalker is comically huge

[mental birch]

Dreads are on like 40

[thin ibex]

Wait does dark Mechanicus have the most fleshing out in legion imperialis?

[mental birch]

Theres a bigger one on a 60mm base

[mental birch]

Mechanicum has nonsense

[vital barn]

apparently these things were cheap and cheerful to build, which I struggle to believe but you do you, darkmech

[mental birch]

The secret is demons

[thin ibex]

Do they have shields?

[mental birch]

Yes

[vital barn]

basically anything the 30k mech fields has some kind of energy shielding

if not full void shields

[mental birch]

Non regenerating voids

[thin ibex]

And they have like... beam lasers (for the war of the worlds vibes?)

[mental birch]

Yes

[thin ibex]

Very neat

[vital barn]

the Krios is just a line tank and it sacrifices armour entirely for layers of non-regen shield projectors, since it's easier to replace the fuses in the generator back at base than repair armour plating after it gets shot

[mental birch]

Krios is basically a predator

Lil

Lol

[vital barn]

stock model has predator armour and way more speed, the nice macrotek ones are Leman Russ grade

14/13/10 7HP

zoom zoom

[mental birch]

I mean in Legion

Lol

[vital barn]

oh, yeah, in that system they're basically identical

tiny little things

[charred bridge]

I love Necrons for this but I wish they had like big ass necrons like the seratek. They don't need it and it's not really their doctrine but it's cool

[thin ibex]

What was horus' relation with dark Mechanicus, did he rule them or did he have to do a lot of negotiating? And I guess what's abbadons? I get the impression that the legions of the csm generally have to scrape and steal for their gear and the iron warriors do a lot of production, so clearly the dark Mechanicus isn't super in bed with him in 40k

[vital barn]

look how cute the LI mechanicum are

tiny tiny thallax

[charred bridge]

Horus led most of them to believe the emp's wasn't the omnissiah or an aspect of it.

[mental birch]

I am so annoyed they come in 3'w

The castallax

[vital barn]

the Martian Darkmech were fairly rapidly consolidated into Horus' forces, the rest of the darkmech went every which way

[charred bridge]

Horus also let dark mechanium practice likes chaos research and hereteks do their things in general

[vital barn]

Horus was sending envoys out to individual forge worlds to negotiate for arms and troops, because there's no common point of contact once you destroy the feudal ties to mars and the logistics network of the Great Crusade

so the stalkers are only one pattern of darkmech combat force

[charred bridge]

Oh also horus did subjugate forge worlds

[vital barn]

but apparently one of the more frequent ones

[mental birch]

Stalkers are cool

[vital barn]

and yeah, they invaded a bunch so you can have cool fights

[charred bridge]

I recently learned about ryza

[mental birch]

Running an army of them

[floral herald]

Abaddon is a deals guy but also works with the dark mech a lot

[vital barn]

the Mezoa and Ryza campaigns got 30k and Adeptus Titanicus splatbooks respectively

[mental birch]

Starved a tyranid invasion to death

Or am I mixing up with a different foreword

Forgeworld

[vital barn]

40k Ryza is after Horus failed to invade it and then orbitally nuked 80% of the infrastructure out of spite

30k Ryza was nearly as swole as Mars

[charred bridge]

Not sure, Ryza is the mastercraft plasma gun and the titans forge world

[vital barn]

evidently the rebuilding went well because they're still a contender

[charred bridge]

They had a stupid number of titans and knights

[floral herald]

Which he kinda has to since the Black Legion is also bigger (notationally) than pretty much any single 30k legion

[vital barn]

at least a few darkmech forge worlds are mobile

[charred bridge]

Like a "strategic reserve" of 150 Knights just chilling otherwise

[vital barn]

Xana 2 strapped engines to their planet and fucked off into the eye of terror

in 40k they make all the hellblades and helltalons

[mental birch]

Yeah is them

[vital barn]

and at one point the Lion fights Ulan Huda, which is a planet-eating darkmech attack moon

[mental birch]

Failed tyranid invasion of Ryza

[vital barn]

sick as hell

[mental birch]

Like the tyranids landed

And then got kicked off Ryza

[vital barn]

you leave them alone for like 3-4 years and by barely the midpoint of the Heresy they've already built Unicron

the Mechanicus in 40k are mentioned to deconstruct planetoids occasionally but 30k really had the drip in this department

as with most departments

[charred bridge]

Ryza was kinda of wild. It produced titans and knights faster than the entirety of mars.

[vital barn]

the 9th black book is mostly just the Lion curbstomping things but all the stuff he curbstomps is objectively way cooler than he is and a lot of it gets away

kind of tempted to do an Ulan Huda army

[thin ibex]

Didn't black legion also absorb war bands from other legions too and has continued to into nowadays?

[vital barn]

the black legion is not very Sons of Horus any more, no

even discounting all the chaos corruption

they assimilated large chunks of whoever they could get

and then presumably killed a lot of it off Black Crusading

[thin ibex]

The lion did have a history of standing on business

[vital barn]

yeah, the lion is scary, but seriously, Kurze shows up and gets owned like four times in this campaign book, they did not have to do him quite that dirty

kill a few Dangels, come on

[thin ibex]

Curze also got owned pretty much all the time in the heresy novels lol

He did kidnap vulkan and kill him a bazillion times

But then vulkan got "it's also a hammer"

[vital barn]

the night lords are unfortunately the fail-legion

even more than the word bearers or world eaters, because at least they killed a lot of guys

[thin ibex]

Man when vulkan comes back, id be surprised if he wasn't kind of crazy. He went from being curze' favorite torture subject to then fighting the beast and getting marinating in waaaagh energy

[floral herald]

Yes

[thin ibex]

And he's canonically the Primarchs' physically strongest member, and on the shortlist of supposedly top tier warriors amongst them too. Post Waaagh bath vulkan gonna be wild

Gonna come running out like jumanji with green lighting popping off around him and a giant beard. "what year is it!?"

[vital barn]

this is kind of badass even if it is kind of the World Engine again

storming darkmech unicron

[thin ibex]

Vulkan Hestan being like "father we've almost found all your stuff! I'm so happy to see you" and vulkan being like "My what? Did I tell you to do that? I completely forgot I'm sorry, I didn't. Really care about any of that"

Ha, vulkan the next Primarch to return so that they have an excuse to make saturnine termies a thing in 40k

[vital barn]

sadly Lion eventually cuts the cool techwitch in half after a big duel and they blow the reactors of the moon so it crawls off into the warp never to be seen again, at the cost of a bunch of white scars

but it's nice to see a mech force genuinely mess up some space marines

[charred bridge]

Imagine if Khan came back between 30k and 40k, saw how bad the imperium was, decided he can't do anything meaningful to change the imperium, then went back to go raid more milk from drukhari

[vital barn]

when you have to burn all 7 wounds off the Myrmidax

cute mental image here

saturday morning cartoon Magos going "I'll get you next time Lion, and your little dog too"

[thin ibex]

What are the myrmidons?

[vital barn]

dedicated combat tech-priests who build themselves into walking tanks the size of Terminators or larger, like a non-chaos and slightly more sensibly designed Obliterator

[past sphinx]

god is a machine and god says kill

iirc they do NOT get along with the other parts of the cult

[vital barn]

standard weaponry of the in-game models: double plasma LMG + Power Axe, conversion beamer + power fist, double-tapping dark lance + whatever melee weapon they want today

big ordnance, hit on 2s and 3s because they're pretty pro, not fast

have a fun ability where if you challenge their sarges in melee the leader will shove their gun down your throat and pull the trigger before either party rolls attacks

so you can do the jurgen meltagun thing with a Myrmidax techpriest

[vital barn]

Myrmidax are considered vaguely odd but are much courted because they're very killy, the Ordo Reductor are the social pariahs because they just want to unmake things

they worship the inverse flow of the machine, the process of destruction, so they became dedicated monster hunters and siegemasters

they also have an explicit License From Emps to innovate, but only to innovate new ways to destroy anything that held up the Great Crusade

[thin ibex]

Wait so destroyers from the necrons and the ordo reductor king of agree?

[upper bluff]

Myrmidons are so cool and I'm still so mad that the 10th edition code, mentions them by name and then there is no datasheet

[vital barn]

the Ordo Reductor are a little less killmaimburn

they like cold calculating siegecraft and tend to deploy lots of relatively cheap and disposable vehicles as well as the quite high quality Thallax combat cyborgs

got on well with the Iron Warriors but a reasonable majority of them went Loyalist during the Heresy, both because of their deeper ties to the the Great Crusade via the Emperor's Killing License and because they thought fighting Horus would be more of a challenge

as opposed to the Cybernetica, who mostly went traitor because that lets you shove cooler things into robot ai cores

if you want cool Reductor stuff, the first Horus Heresy Black Book is both an amazing rendition of Istvaan III and also has an ordo reductor magos fighting an extremely stylish insurgency against the Death Guard and Sons of Horus

long out of print, I think I have it somewhere here

[charred bridge]

Do myrmidax also hate like bacteria

[past sphinx]

destroyers do

[charred bridge]

Destroyers kind of take it to the extreme

[vital barn]

no, myrmidax are in this to become really good at fighting because they love fighting

[charred bridge]

That patch of grass gravely insult them

[thin ibex]

is there more to the electric priesthood in the lore than what we get out of the tabletop/

[vital barn]

not really

they only show up in one tiny fraction of the 40k army list

like most 40k units they didn't bother establishing 30k's giant pile of Deepest Lore first, they just made models

[upper bluff]

I think they're basically just motive force monks

[thin ibex]

cause i figure there are many martian priesthoods; but electric priests seem kinda unique a bit

and also seem to be relatively important in some ways?

[upper bluff]

Yeah they don't seem to be as tied into the whole magos structure

Maybe one day we'll get a Techpriest Motivica or something to make that more clear

[thin ibex]

i always thought they were neat, just dont think they're the best units

i still use em when i build out mechanicus armies

cause i like em lol

[upper bluff]

Yeah they're cool

I like the gauntlet ones

[past sphinx]

having now built a dominus i will say i was entirely correct on them being possibly the worst imperial kit

they somehow have both far to much going on while having nothing

66% to many guns

[pale narwhal]

Yeah it’s an odd model

If it had just one gun it’d be fine tbh

…if I ever get another one I might use a sicarian chordclaw on one of the arms instead

[past sphinx]

i think i get the whole battle ship thing and that might work on a smaller model but the shoulder/carpace cannons are overwrought

[mild glen]

Dang it. Okay. So. I'm considering pulling the trigger on starring a blood Ravens army.
Should I pre order the Raven Guard or the shudder Imperial Fists box?

[past sphinx]

i think blood ravens would fall in more into the fists camp

Peak Senior Generico marines

[mild glen]

More units for librarians to lead, too.

[west zealot]

"most Space Marines’ ability to recognise signs of heresy is limited to sticking their heads up to see where the bolter rounds are coming from. Which, to be fair, is pretty much the only indication they actually need."

[glad spear]

For the greater goo- 💣

[finite compass]

I just got their TWWH3 dlc.

They're fun

[charred bridge]

Youd think the speciali supersoliders would do something like inhumane they'd be able to locate the source accurately by sound of opponent's gun mechanism and pin point blind fire around the corner the millisecond the shooter's magazine approaches sounds emptier

[pulsar holly]

Truly the greatest nation in the Old World

[mental birch]

Steals their cannons and blunderbuss

[pulsar holly]

[west zealot]

I just love the mental image of a bunch of space marine helemts slowly rising above some ocver going "Heresey? Heresey? Heresey? HJersey?"

[west zealot]

How is that chorf's spine still intanct

[finite compass]

Such is the power of the Dawi-Zharr

[mental birch]

You mean Cathayan Grand Cannons

Hehdhe

[vital barn]

accurate rendition of the Istvaan III loyalists post-virus bombing

I was planning out my Alpha Legion army and I was getting annoyed that the two infantry units were one boring tactical squad and one elite unit of Headhunters, because it was asymmetrical

but headhunters have.... bolters and knives

they're autofiring banestrike bolters and power knives, but they still look like tacticals

very nicely done, Alphas

[pastel rampart]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/gikf8db9/blood-bowl-returns-for-a-new-season-of-mayhem/

[gray basalt]

https://tenor.com/view/gordon-ramsay-finally-good-food-chef-gif-11616250

[cloud flicker]

Have the lizardmen been added to BB yet?

Yep.

Scrolled down and saw them.

No new full team models yet it seems?

[gray basalt]

Lizardmen have been out

For a few years now

Iirc

[gray basalt]

https://www.warhammer.com/en-US/shop/Blood-Bowl-Lizardmen-Team-2020?srsltid=AfmBOopzk3AOK3mwGRQF5o2z4oRDVe4g_o_q7-5WLJZKwGlAevX_jZR0

They are really good actually

[cloud flicker]

Yeah those look older.

[gray basalt]

Well iirc they are fairly new

[sweet solar]

my "assumption" has always been that they are what happens to mechanicus psykers

fannon more than assumption

[charred bridge]

Are there psyker tech priests?

[upper bluff]

Not on the table top

[jaunty dawn]

undetected psykers might become a tech priest

but at least since the treaty of mars psykers are imperial property basically

idk if there's info about what mars was doing with them before then

the rpgs had a thing where a tech priest could give themselves psychic powers by implanting a psychoactive artefact in themselves

[upper bluff]

I assume that was tech heresy?

Seems kinda sus

[jaunty dawn]

yeah kinda sus

they're called the acolytes of abraxas and not only is it psyker shit its also xenos shit hehe

[vital barn]

thee are Magos Psykana, they tend towards being either poorly-thought-of- or outright heretek

only a few of them are natural psykers though, many are not psykers at all and merely study and work with psy-tech, some have fucked up machines made of psyker brains in jars that they poke until they cast spells for them

one used to be a HH1e relic, you just rolled on a d6 table of spells and hoped it didn't Perils and explode on a 1

[sweet solar]

theres also mechanicus involved with psyker stuff who arent necceserily psykana

someones gotta build all the psychic hoods and force weapons and psi-titans

[sweet solar]

remember its not heresy if its got a different name, like how the space wolves get to have unsanctioned psykers kicking around fenris because those are priests who use magic

completly different from being a psyker

dont worry about it

[upper bluff]

right lol

[sour sequoia]

Only 5 more ribs to go…

Clockin 48 minutes per rib

A mere 5 hours per ribcage of a necron ark🫠

[pulsar cairn]

which 40k symbol would yall pick for a stamp? I think i wanna start decorating gifts i give people with wax stamps! And im thinking i want something from 40k

[finite compass]

Aquila, skull, or twin-tailed comet

even if the last is fantasy

[pulsar cairn]

Fantasy recommendations are just as welcome!

[quaint compass]

You can never go wrong with the eight-pointed star 😊

[pulsar cairn]

i might end up ordering more than one....

[pulsar cairn]

imma go crazy with so many options

[paper bluff]

I think a nagash seal would go hard

[past sphinx]

wait

flesh eater courts is just nightlords with some fangs on!

[upper bluff]

If nightlords had delusional visions of themselves as aristocrats and ate the people they fought and had a still living leader, and were zombie vampires and werent super soldiers and

[past sphinx]

well the symbol is

i dont think a ghoul would know one end of a chainglaive from the other

[floral herald]

Out of curiosity how old is the oldest model with a datasheet in 40k now?

[rocky shale]

Maybe Karandras if you include legends

[floral herald]

I was thinking exluding legends but I might make an exception for him since he lost his place like this year

I originally posted this cause I realized Chaos Bikers are from 1999 and still like... meta

[sour sequoia]

Lokhust Destroyers/Lokhust Lord?

[rocky shale]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dGPpE2_XOY

[floral herald]

75 minutes lordy

[rocky shale]

Vyper and Falcon are

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/123mjQsYY-8UvsYJLV-ZkazjbsWrLCvVbuhvKKVPchlw/edit?gid=938278531#gid=938278531

Vyper and Falcons are 1997, Karandras is 1994

[floral herald]

Wasn't the Falcon modernized with the rebox with the Wave Serpent?

That does leave the Vyper anyway though

[rocky shale]

No, they were always just 1 sprue different so they stuck both sprues in the same box. Wave serpent is a 2005 upgrade sprue to the falcon basically.

[floral herald]

Ahh ok

[rocky shale]

Bikers are 1999

[floral herald]

Destroyers are also pretty venerable it looks like at 2002

[rocky shale]

I think aeldari may win this one even after the range refresh

TBH the falcon is a timeless design, though you can literally see the age of the molds in the plastic

The vyper did not age as well

[floral herald]

Yeah the Falcon could be from like 2013 easily in my mind's eye

[rocky shale]

The wave serpent sprue is just a longer crew compartment, a different turret, and the little pointy bits

The biggest thing a new kit would bring IMO would be just a better designed assembly process. The crew compartment is notoriously hard to get to fit without gaps

[floral herald]

Some new models have such weird fuckin assemblies

I was putting together the new Raveners and their front torsos are so tightly fitting they snap into place

[rocky shale]

The wave serpent part would work great if both of the parts had as flat of edges as they might have when the molds were new

But instead you're trying to get long, slightly wavy edges to lie flat

[sour sequoia]

More mid hammer but god I hate the Doomsday Ark so much

[floral herald]

Ok yeah that looks annoying

[sour sequoia]

Always some Stupid Bull Shit with necron sculpts tbh

[floral herald]

This one looks pretty normal but the the front C5 piece has to be snapped into position in a weird way

Like the side-spines at the bottom actually get splayed out for a bit and it makes an audible click when it's in the right position

[sour sequoia]

My whole pivot to GSC kicked off because I bought Szeras and a DDA as bday gifts for myself, opened the manuals, and realized it was just gonna fucking suck the whole way through

I only got the DDA assembled like a week ago, only got painting today

[floral herald]

This one was also so tight I had to shave part of the tongue off to fit the jaw

(That aside - the raveners are really fun models)

[thin ibex]

It'd be interesting to see more of the aeldari interpreted through GW's current sensibilities

[floral herald]

(Hoping to paint em up and play them next week)

[thin ibex]

What's they're playstyle?

[desert jay]

I mean we just saw a whole lot of it in the aspect warrior wave

[floral herald]

Fucked up and weird

They're (currently) the only 5 member KT (Deathwatch Vets will join them in 2 weeks) and have only 1 operative with a real gun

They all have 20+ wounds but 5+ armor

[thin ibex]

Yeah that's kinda why I want to see more of the non aspects get updated

[floral herald]

And have a "burrow" which grows across the battlefield they can disappear into for safety and mobility

[thin ibex]

How many are intercessors?

[floral herald]

6

[thin ibex]

Huh, wild

Pathfinder v Raveners sounds gnarly for the pathfinders

[floral herald]

It probably is

[thin ibex]

I do love the narrative feel of that though

[floral herald]

Raveners are also fast (7" move)

And have crazy good faction equipment

[thin ibex]

I also feel like Raveners vs Vespids is a cool narrative match up

One to the air and one under the ground

[floral herald]

Oh yeah they also get super counteracts and can burrow and unburrow in their counteracts

They're lethal and "sticky" stealth melee specialists

This is emblematic of the kind of stuff you'll do - soften people up in melee and then dive deeper into new melee fights

You use being locked in melee a lot to make your guys "gun proof"

[tired cairn]

It took me awhile to figure it out (the instructions really don't help here), but I found I had to kind of rotate them into place (mostly saying this so other people are saved lol)

[floral herald]

Yeah it sucked the first time but it was easy by the end when I had the technique

this stuff is also crazy

[tired cairn]

I think the new Deathwatch will make them sad. The melee specialists are probably something raveners don't want to fight but they don't have much choice lol

[floral herald]

Yeah Deathwatch are gonna be hard

I think for a lot of people

They're kinda just King Shit of Kill Mountain and you gotta figure out how to play when you're playing like Legionaries or something and can't actually rely on model overmatch haha

[thin ibex]

Hmm so what's their counter? Seems like having good overlapping fields of fire, ignores obscuring/ cover, or be able to go toe to toe in melee seems the way

Phobos kt maybe plays well into raveners?

[floral herald]

Raveners are always outnumbered, cannot contest a lot of the map safely (they need to camp their tunnel, which will probably go towards the midfield objective) and have almost literally no shooting

(they all get 3 inch range silent tails to bonk people with and one of them gets a scary pistol they can turn into a real gun for 1 shot for 1 AP)

I think the generic advice is to mitigate their ability to do the "ravener special" of popping up unexpectedly getting a 2-3 model multi-charge and then killing 1-2 people in melee)

[thin ibex]

Hmm so they want to thin the enemy numbers fast and the bigger KT want to do objectives while they still can

[floral herald]

And play your tac op to get around their kinda brutal tunnel control

[thin ibex]

Sacrificial lambs seems a play for the groups that have numbers

[floral herald]

Yeah definitely

I don't have a great understanding of em yet but I get the feeling the worst MUs into them are all melee people

Goremongers and cows and such

https://youtu.be/zrEv9XVRprE

This was a really fun one to see

[humble plover]

gotta love raveners

I've been getting in a lot of games with them and I'm feeling really confident with em now

[floral herald]

Nice

[humble plover]

had a game against hierotek a few days back where I completely shut them out by just not letting them get a shot off on me after my Venomspitter got blasted by a deathmark early TP2 and got knocked down from full to like 2 wounds I think

ended up winning 13-5 without primary op

[floral herald]

What's the easier and harder matchups in your experience?

[upper canopy]

First time I ever just Beat Someone Up in Dark Heresy

I rolled Righteous Fury and cracked a guy's ribs

first blow

[humble plover]

so far the hardest matchup for me have been Hernkyn and very surprisingly Phobos

easiest was by far chaos cult, but that was also against a pretty new player, and then the aforementioned Hierotek game

[floral herald]

That makes sense chaos cult is one of the ones where I’m not sure what I’d do

[humble plover]

but even though I was playing someone new it feels like Ravs v Chaos Cult is as close to a solved matchup as you can get

I killed 5 dudes first activation of TP2

[floral herald]

I’m not shocked about Phobos since they’re just generally strong and have copious access to Saturate and other things Raveners don’t like while being tough enough to not immediately die in melee

[humble plover]

I expected them to just kinda fall over since they're squishier than normal marines, but they're tricksy enough that even in games where I do kill most of them I've lost on points every time

I do also legitimately think Hernkyn might be one of the best matchups against them. They just have so many tools to just annoy Ravs to death

[floral herald]

Jaegirs I’ve not seen much of don’t they like scatter mines and tokens all over the board?

[humble plover]

thats part of it, but they also have a strat ploy that makes em take a minimum of 3 hits to die in melee outside of crush luck, a firefight ploy to shoot someone when an ally nearby gets charged, and an equipment to give the whole team 3 atck 4+ 3/5 Lethal 5+ knives

I could always kill them, but each dead dwarf cost me so many wounds I just lost the battle of attrition

[floral herald]

Oh, yeah that’d do it

[humble plover]

also instead of having any support units they have a faction rule that lets you heal them or give them extra APL 1-2 times per turning point, so every operative on the team is capable of outputting some respectable damage, especially with the knives

[thin ibex]

Man I don't even know the current state of the game and I called it with the phobos lol

[vital barn]

continued rambling on 30k - interestingly, Primarchs are not actually all-round Fearless any longer like they have been in every previous edition

Almost all of them are Cool 10, which is the stat you use to resist suppression (makes you shoot bad) pinning (can't move) and stun (can't use reactions) and any status effect stops you scoring.

This is pretty good, but you can still get 'em

and none of the elite supermegaterminators or whatever that people like to run primarchs with can take a squad vox, which is the upgrade that lets you clear statuses at the start of your turn rather than the end

[vital barn]

as such, if you put a model with solid Fear next to your average primarch deathstar and then shoot them with spooky scary guns, you have about a 70% chance of making Sanguinius sit down and cry for a turn

that wouldn't even work on your average tac squad, they have voxes

[vital barn]

ooh, very nice

[desert jay]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/m4d5c76b/imperial-knights-detachments-quest-forever-to-defend-the-heartland/

I know we have Knight fans in the house

[radiant lotus]

im scared to get back into painting models/I have always been insecure about my painting

doesn't help my resin printer broke down

I got some nasty comments from people in my area in warhammer

[junior robin]

finally, (spear of) vulkan confirmed

surely no other spear exists in the game of 40 000 hammers

[radiant lotus]

funny coincidence

[sour sequoia]

Hey that dread rips you’re doing good

I’ll smack those people for you

If you want critique and better help this thread n the painting thread are full of good eggs, but honestly you’re lookin like you’re at a spot the #1 thing is to find some self confidence again

The orange on the leg is sick

[charred bridge]

Since Primaris Marines are a thing in the game, does it just make each primaris space marine better than CSM since chaos doesn't have primaris?

[main pagoda]

uh yes but also no, most CSM still kicking are alot older and have alot more experience and "gifts" from the gods to bring them to a similar level

[floral herald]

Sorta

Primaris are kinda marginal improvements and CSM have really variable quality guys

[radiant lotus]

thank you

[charred bridge]

How is more experience represented in the game

[pastel rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-the-neat-part-you-dont-invincible-gif-27194608

[sour sequoia]

I mean I’ll be real Chosen or Possessed or [insert cult marines here] are still gonna slaughter primaris

Plague marine squads look at all the T6 3 wounds on gravis and just start laughing their ass off

[bright dove]

The laughter may sound like hacking, phlegm-filled coughs, but don't be fooled.

[rocky shale]

Lol the fnp is sooooo gone

[tired cairn]

That is not terribly surprising lol

[sour sequoia]

Oh thank god

[floral herald]

For Chosen it’s an extra wound and I think improved ld

Along with sort of better unit special rules

[vital barn]

I see the numbers got bigger since I stopped playing mainline 40k

[floral herald]

Yeah strength and toughness go above 10 now

[vital barn]

oh they did that in 8th, that's very old

but looking at plague marines they certainly have a lot more dakka than I'm used to

(and +1T)

[sour sequoia]

Death Guard is chaos custodes now

Which is cool, but until like last week they were also 400pts undercosted and have been just obliterating the entire meta for months on end

So the marines are all T6, termies are all T7

[tired cairn]

Does this really need to be an
Enhancement that requires you to fulfill an oath to reuse it, James?

[sour sequoia]

In normal armies no

In the detach that gets 5 OC sticky

And every knight has 6+ OC

[tired cairn]

Yeah, but it's in the charge phase

[sour sequoia]

I think its worth being careful

[tired cairn]

It only really affects strat usage

But there is often dud enhancements. This one is more reasonable:

[thin ibex]

Sus hits 2 on the lancer

[sour sequoia]

Ah. Knights may finally have the volume to kill a neophyte brick in melee

[past sphinx]

Didn't we get the other side of a spear a while back? The alpharius lookin one?

Maybe the csm are getting chapter heros like marines just did

[upper bluff]

Okay csm company heroes would be cool

[vital barn]

As usual I'm used to the 30k Custodes stats, where it's T5 base, Termies T6

admittedly the termies are T6 W3 EW(1) which is just brutal to deal with

[charred bridge]

So like how do you beat custodes, idk the game besides like custodes armies is like 6 dudes that basically cannot be killed easilyunless you got stupid firepopwer and a menance at blocking objectives

[floral herald]

Shoot them

Or just play around them since they’re not super mobile and elite armies have board coverage issues

[charred bridge]

So would like Tau just be a hard counter to them?

[sour sequoia]

Kinda yes kinda no?

but riptides bully custodes pretty good with the typical gun set up that you’re taking into an elite meta (like right now)

You either plan to outkill or outscore custodes because they’re only ever gonna be so many models, but they’re high toughness high save and universal invulns

Tau says ‘okay make thirty coinflips’ while a lot of other armies say ‘okay have that point I’ll take the other two’

Custodes WR is in the trash rn because ‘having the killiest dudes’ means approx. fuckall right now to be honest outside of a single primary mission

[charred bridge]

Oh I see

[past sphinx]

Primaris intercessors are really good at killing us

Because 46 shots is gonna killing something

[charred bridge]

I know very little about like the wargame besides, custodes almost invulnerable, orks is buckets of dice, Tau is shooting from another ZIP code and kiting melee

[past sphinx]

Custodies are effectively another variety of skew lists Like Knights or like half the guard lists that ever get played

[rocky shale]

Custodes aren't really almost invincible

They're just tougher than other infantry

It's like an army of light vehicles almost

[sour sequoia]

Custodes die to volume and mortals, much like other elites. Excellent if you can bring mondo lascannons or plasma cannons but the other thing you can do is like. This:

“Haha my 75pt unit just killed a custodes on average just by movement, you’re blocked off the objective, and then we’ll pop a grenade and Do It Again before actually shooting”

[desert jay]

Listening to people, sometimes it feels like anything that isn't in the 1W 4+ to 2W 3+ infantry zone is called a skew

[sour sequoia]

And then the GSC player is packing 3 of these dipshit dirtbike units and you’ve lost half of a 400pt unit to dogshit chaff’s side effects of existing

[rocky shale]

Skew is when my army can't kill it

[soft willow]

Strategic list building when they can't kill you?

[sour sequoia]

Skew is when space marine bolters are no longer the ideal profile because how can we expect Jimbo Ultramarines to utilize his roster of 80 intercessors and every sculpt of primaris lieutenant otherwise

But to say custodes is gonna skew/stat check is accurate imo their job is literally “Most Stacked Infantry Guys In Game”

[pale narwhal]

How bad of an idea is it to learn killteam with the servitor battleclade? I have them painted up but I’m not sure that starting with what seems like the KT equivalent of GSC will give me a particularly easy time

[sour sequoia]

Do you like them

[rocky shale]

The only armies I recognize as skew are knights and anyone bringing more than 150-200 models to a game

Or like oops all ctan

[sour sequoia]

I’m not convinced they’re the most difficult yet but they’re certainly up there with like, Mandrakes

[floral herald]

They’re kinda confusing with network stuff but they’re fundamentally a pretty normal middleweight team with a weird number of flamethrowers

[sour sequoia]

I play GSC and then Mandrakes in KT so I say just commit to the bit and then you’ll look like a wizard to all your friends

[desert jay]

I'm willing to recognize Oops All Tanks as skew too

[main pagoda]

the main skew lists to me are all tanks and horde

[rocky shale]

Depending on the tanks yes

Because a dorn is just actually tougher than a knight questoris

[desert jay]

Pt for pt, maybe

[radiant lotus]

do you all prefer 9th or 10th edition?

[rocky shale]

Better saves lower wound count

[rocky shale]

Very few people play older editions

[radiant lotus]

I have not played 40k since 10th came out and from what ive seen I don't like alot of the changes in 10th

[upper canopy]

I played both

I genuinely forget the differences

I liked 10th

[sour sequoia]

I think if you’re gonna play old editions there’s the most merit in like, 3rd and 7th (lmao) as far as I can tell

[floral herald]

I think 10e is better

[upper canopy]

My brain has lost all 40k knowledge

What one are we on now

[floral herald]

10e

[upper canopy]

Then yeah I cant say which one i like better but I can say for certain I like 10e

[radiant lotus]

my girlfriend wanted me to play a wargame with her after she saw my models (I quit), I just don't know WHAT to play with her

[pale narwhal]

I love my funky lil servitors

[rocky shale]

10th or kill team for actual games workshop stuff are both fun at different scales

[rocky shale]

Oops I meant dorns not russes

[radiant lotus]

im a huge 6mm/10mm gamer, but I don't think teaching her epic armageddon is a great start

[pale narwhal]

Could pick up one page rules?

[desert jay]

Ah yeah that makes more sense

[floral herald]

Why not? It’s relatively straightforward

[pale narwhal]

I have em built with all the specialists, 2 flamers, and a melta

[desert jay]

OPR does actually sound like a solid pick for someone who has 40K models and want something light to get into, but also some of the reasons that make people not a fan of 10e can make one even less of a fan of OPR

[floral herald]

I think that’s good

[radiant lotus]

I have actually played alot of OPR, and it ran its course for me, and me and her actually have played opr in the past

I think she wanted a little more to chew on/play a "big boy" game with me

im a huge 6mm fan, is epic armageddon considered a hard system?

[rocky shale]

Dorns are 240pts T12, 2+, 18W, can blank one shot per game, havw a pile of random guns, and have pretty easy access to a 4++ with a tech priest.

Knight questoris are T11, 3+/5++(ranged only), 26W with very specialized loadouts for like 360ish pts.

The thing that makes knight really spooky imo is towering and super heavy walker giving them waaaaay better mobility.

[radiant lotus]

I was thinking about trench crusade as well

[rocky shale]

It's hard to hide from knights compared to tank spam

[floral herald]

I was planning on magnetizing my normal guys but that’s mostly because it’s easy

[floral herald]

It’s old and not super well explained but I don’t think it’s that complicated

[pale narwhal]

I probably could have magnetised them but didn’t bother

I’m mostly concerned about the learning curve of the network stuff but honestly it doesn’t seem tooo bad

[radiant lotus]

off topic, how badly is the lack of psychic phase felt in 10e? it really, really bothers me

[rocky shale]

Depends a lot on the army tbh.

Thousand Sons just get one back as an army rule

[vital barn]

Trench Crusade is very smooth honestly

[rocky shale]

Grey Knights suffer

It also depends on what you liked about psychic phase

[floral herald]

Idgf about the psychic phase but I think a lot of the 10e psychic powers are boring as hell

[vital barn]

any edition of 40k is this strange mix of legacy systems, update cycle jank and recent attempts at modernisation

so I would rather play something focused like TC for someone's first wargame if I had to pick

[radiant lotus]

thats what I was thinking

[rocky shale]

I got into 40k in 10th so I never played with a real psychic phase but I do wish my farseer could do wizard shit instead of getting a psychic gun and a datasheet ability with psychic flavor.

[pale narwhal]

Like I’m used to tau guiding/guided and older editions’ markerlight tokens

I can figure out the network stuff

[vital barn]

while 7th had many problems I still think the 7e psychic phase was kind of peak

[rocky shale]

That being said I enjoy 10th a lot

[radiant lotus]

I also miss relics and weapon loadouts alot :(

[vital barn]

the 7th psychic powers were not, those were terribly balanced

but it had good wizard duel vibes

[radiant lotus]

sub faction rules and detachments as well

[floral herald]

I haven’t played em but my feeling is that they’re really confusing looking rules but in practice I think it’s kinda easy to see which guys don’t need a lot of actions

[rocky shale]

Most of this is in 10th in one form or another

Early 10th only had one detachment per index but they all got more in codex releases

[sour sequoia]

Did you ever play a faction that didn’t drown in psykers is the corollary to this is the thing

The psyker factions have loads of Stuff To Do Still tbh

There’s just no longer a totally unreactable phase

[rocky shale]

I think Grey Knights lost the worst in terms of psychic stuff but everyone else is pretty much ok

Tsons have a ton of wizard bullshit

SM and Aeldari both have a psychic detachment that's good

Csm have a good psyker themed one too even if it's not the best theming

Nids and gsc not so much

[sour sequoia]

Almost every subfaction rule has also persisted through its just no longer specifically named subfactions

[rocky shale]

Who else? I guess guard psykers just kinda brain blast and give invulns.

[radiant lotus]

my gf wants to play 40k I think, do I be selfish and play 9th or learn 10th with her

[paper bluff]

Play for points and STAY OUT OF MELEE.

[pale narwhal]

I think 10th is the better edition

In terms of overall balance

But it’s up to you

[rocky shale]

10th is easier to learn/play, has more current tools available, and if you want to play with other people later then it's likely that's what they'll want to play

[paper bluff]

https://youtu.be/XJIzGFmk_ec?si=WFAP_uzyH4P2qNaQ

https://youtu.be/r9-kCYNQmZQ?si=eLtgmi8Rnmi0_2Ct

Have you considered tho

[pastel rampart]

No one should play 2nd ed.

[sour sequoia]

Premier Oldhead has spoken

Slim says some shit about oldhammer I believe it

[pastel rampart]

2nd is a very incoherent beast because it's really just a collection of sub-systems smashed together.

Where each sub-system is fine in a vacuum, together it becomes a mess that plays twice as long as it should.

2e also ran into the same issues that WHFB 5th ed did, where it's HEROHAMMER, BAYBEE. Heroes had equipment cards and great stats and could be tooled into insane murdermachines with the right combo. Which is admittedly fun but doesn't make for great game balance, and 2nd was very...very unbalanced. To a hilarious degree.

(of course, the answer to herohammer was virus bombs or carnifex but, well...)

[past sphinx]

2e from my small experiance is very much a game built out of like 10 guys in the back of a slightly sketchy pub going "you know what would be cool?" writing it down on a napkin and publishing it a month later in a white dwarf

[pale narwhal]

That’s like. Pretty much what it was back then based on what I’ve heard from interviews of various people who were working for gw at the time

[jaunty dawn]

My parent had one of these

I think it was a cardboard template in 2e though so not as old as I thought

But like this was a 3d thing

Like

https://minifreemarket.com/upload/thumbs/catalog/full/vortex-grenade-template-1_2.36275494.webp

[pastel rampart]

Oh that was for Apocalypse I think

Which was squarely a 4e/5e thing.

[jaunty dawn]

Yeah I guess it was a stratagem you could take in those books

[pastel rampart]

Yup!

[jaunty dawn]

But a reference to the 2e equipment card

[pastel rampart]

2e had the cardboard template. Which I think was just a small or large blast template.

[jaunty dawn]

Fancy small

[pastel rampart]

Aah, yeah.

[finite compass]

i still have the old 3e book

Where half of it is just the official lists for every army that existed at the time

Eldar with Lascannons

IG Stormtroopers that have 5+ armor and lasguns

All the old 'Heroes of the Imperium' you could add to various armies like Confessors and generic Assassins

https://tenor.com/view/ren-and-stimpy-memories-gif-20083366

[radiant lotus]

my partner apparently found a.... skyship landing pad from legends

bro has a thingamajig in her list

[jaunty dawn]

Yeah thats from back when they added fortifications

Has a force field on top

It was that and the original aegis defence line (with turret) and bunkers

And they just have rules to this day

[vital barn]

skyshield landing pad!

this thing used to be cool

either a solid cover save for units on top or you could fold it down and float a flyer on top in hover mode for the entire game so you could rain death with your overpriced thunderhawk

sadly even in heresy it is mid now

[mental birch]

Spearhead-at-Arms

Let's goooo

[desert jay]

I do think it's sorta a silly name b/c spearhead already is a militarized term so "at arms" doesn't really add anything

But yes cool Armiger detach

[vital barn]

I am very late to this because I only realised it existed when I needed fixed artillery for my 30k Militia allies, but damn, the new Krieg arty is beautiful

massive improvement on the old FW Earthshaker

thudd gun returns

[thin ibex]

I wish it was more balanced in its own options, but I like em a lot

[vital barn]

luckily I don't have to deal with that because I'm using it for a different army

ruleswise the rockets and the big mortar have most struck me but there's good reasons for all three

what's the meta weapon for the kriegers?

[rocky shale]

For the artillery?

[vital barn]

yeah

[rocky shale]

It has 4 options each good for a different role, but the siege cannon is cool for being able to do decent chip damage on vehicles and terminators

The multiple rocket launcher is okay if you just want to harass infantry

The cannon is S12, AP-2, D3 which is crazy for indirect

[vital barn]

dear god the stat inflation

still, nice that it's solid

[rocky shale]

T12 is like most heavy tanks

And most terminators are T5 3W

So it's pretty excellent into them too

[vital barn]

I am used to the classic earthshaker cannon statline, which is S9 AP3 large blast

obviously the nature of a weapon statline has changed enough that neither the HH or 10e earthshaker actually has that any longer, but damn, that's a big laser beam

HH termies are T5 W2, so not much difference there

[tranquil ivy]

Subterranean Assault is such a peak detachment for Tyranids and i refuse to stay silent about it

[radiant lotus]

how are gsc right now?

I remember starting a gsc army slightly before quitting in 9th, if I were to return id probably play them because harlequins are dead afaik

[rocky shale]

GSC are solid @sour sequoia is the local expert

Harlequins are one detachment in Aeldari right now unfortunately

[mental birch]

There are 2 kinds of GSC players 4d chess positioning galaxy brain

[radiant lotus]

its what I enjoy about them

[mental birch]

And the people who lose hahaa

[radiant lotus]

I looked through my models and found my admech stuff

never again.... 😭

[rocky shale]

Admech are cool if you already own admech and don't have to buy more

[sour sequoia]

GSC are very fucking good right now and have been all edition

the question is how many learning games you're willing to get pushed in the dirt for

also kind of how many neophytes you're willing to paint rn cuz the meta runs 80-100 of em

now I love that shit, inject it straight into my veins, but it ain't for everybody

[cinder wraith]

night lords helmet hhrhehheheh

[glad spear]

Games workshop needs to craft another 1000 more Warhammers

[floral herald]

They need to get more copies of Tomb World 😤

[vital barn]

re: Engine Kill in the video @rose hill posted, that is basically how Titanicus goes, with the exception that all those titans die real easy because otherwise it would be a somewhat boring animation

basically nothing above a Warhound dies fast in AT, even to warlord-grade firepower

[rose hill]

to be fair that is a final cataclysmic clash after a long sortie where both sides have been worn down

[vital barn]

that punch-into-gatling combo is the Titan equivalent of a 1-2, it is how you do it mechanically because it lets you farm crits on broken armour

very cute to see they animated it

I have killed many titans with that because my favourite maniple is rock-em sock-em Reavers

and I haven't even played much AT, it's just that when you run reavers it's how you get most of your kills

[rose hill]

like, the loyalist titans got ambushed by a shadowsword earlier

so everyone's a bit low on things

[glad spear]

I should really play the tabletop again, I want an excuse to field my storm surge

[vital barn]

what, one shadowsword?

[rose hill]

I think 3

in different positions

[vital barn]

yeah that's a bit more like it

shadowsword platoon vs Reaver is an even fight, shadowsword vs multiple warlords is extremely not

[rose hill]

yeah, it was an ambush and it ended basically as expected

titans took an initial hit and then the shadowswords were vapor

[hollow laurel]

So, I claimed in TechDis that BattleTech might stand a chance against 40k. This is, on the face of it, a pretty insane proposal, but I have my reasons threefold, but don't wanna spam the chat because this could be big. ><

[vital barn]

I think this is an extremely old argument that usually rotates around "warp travel is shit" and "chaos gonna getcha"

but in open battle I have very little idea of how they actually compare

[vital barn]

my go-to maniple is the Ruptura, which is two Warbringers and three Reavers, and the party trick of that one is that the reavers can zoom zoom fast enough to just straight up pick up a sniper knight or shadowsword and throw it off the table when it tries to jump them

I would simply run up the sniper because he's not specialised in melee combat

[floral herald]

My gut feeling from the dusty archives of when I cared more about this stuff is that Btech doesn’t have the calcs or numbers to win

[hollow laurel]

Well, yes and no. If the Imperium fully mobilises, BT dies. But that's the thing, the Imperium can't fully mobilise.

[rose hill]

also this is the siege of terra so warp fuckery keeps letting chaos forces sneak up on them

in ways that generally wwould not otherwise work

[vital barn]

oh yeah, while I'm Titanposting, I will just mention my favourite Legio, the Warp Runners

Legio Astorum are the only people insane enough to build a teleportarium that fits Titans

once they're done risking a stupidly expensive machine to aura farm, they are straightforwardly good at forced marches and quick repairs, but man is it good at aura farming

[rose hill]

also battletech is on par with imperium normal weaponry

they lack the Nutty Stupid Shit

the battletech equivalent of Nutty Stupid Shit is like, strapping a gauss cannon to a medium mech

[uneven ember]

I mean fundamentally BT and 40K both run on capabilities of "howling nonsense"

[vital barn]

the only downside of the warp runners is that I think their paint scheme is mid

this is just an ultramarine

[hollow laurel]

Yeah. But my Big Point is that the Imperium can't bring that Nutty Stupid Shit to bear in numbers enough to matter.

[vital barn]

going to need to change that up

how big are BT numbers, anyway?

[rose hill]

also void shielding is a big advantage that battletech mechs don't have

[vital barn]

from what I remember the mechwarrior games do the usual thing where you have half a dozen lads and the enemies have as many mechs as necessary for the mission, so that's presumably not a great guide

[rose hill]

mech combat in mechwarrior is typically between stars or lances

which are groups of 5 or 4

[hollow laurel]

going cross-eyed a bit. Err.. So this might end up in FASAnomics territory, but I'm going to give a big example of what happens when BT brings big forces to bear.

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) how big are BT numbers, anyway?

[rose hill]

but there's a lot of lances/stars

[vital barn]

your average Knight house is "a few hundred knights", your average Titan Legion is maybe 80-100 Titans

and one Legion + associated knight house is a force that can actually show up to a reasonable number of campaigns

[rose hill]

a mech regiment is about 100 mechs

[floral herald]

Btech mechs are broadly more comparable to conventional armor than 40k’s Big Walkers

Partially cause there’s a lot of stupidly high tonnage tanks in 40k

[hollow laurel]

My example is Tukayyid. ComStar brought all 12 Armies, which each one is like 600 mechs and an assorted bunch of fun stuff?

[vital barn]

although often it's a demi-legio, which is authorspeak for "however many titans made sense for the plot, usually about 12-20"

[sour sequoia]

The imperial fists detach is up, renovated First Company

[rose hill]

and a regiment is roughly equivalent to a legion in terms of force org

[hollow laurel]

So you've got like 300 armour, probably around 400 infantry, and 234 fighters. And there's 12 of these.

[rose hill]

mech armies are basically only deployed in Maximum Shit

[vital barn]

the main downside is that a mech is what, 90 tons and uses a real big autocannon as a significant armament?

[hollow laurel]

I'm kinda guessing this is Maximum Shit, honestly, because the Imperium is fucking huge.

[rose hill]

regiments are about the largest standard force you're ever ggoing to see outside of Maximuum Shit

and most houses can't field much more thann that

the great houses, comstar, the clans, etc are different

[hollow laurel]

Most houses can field multiple regiments though.

[vital barn]

the only mech whose stats I know off the top of my head is the Highlander because I think it looks cute

[hollow laurel]

Anywhere from 20 to 100 tonnes.

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) the main downside is that a mech is what, 90 tons and uses a real big autocannon as a significant ar…

[rose hill]

the great houses can field multiple regiments

[vital barn]

OK, that's straight up not a Titan, that's a Knight

[hollow laurel]

Yeah, BT cannot field Titans.

[rose hill]

yeah titans are Stupid Sized and can step on an assault battlemech

[vital barn]

and 600 knights is an unusually massive knight house

[rose hill]

the bigger ones anyway

[vital barn]

but not unprecedented

[hollow laurel]

Something we're more likely to see thrown around is.. Lemme run the maths here.

[vital barn]

I believe the old table for knight house size was literally 1d6x100 knights

[rose hill]

battlemechs are going to be generally better armed than knights though

for the most part

[vital barn]

I think the knights take melee combat with ease but struggle in a shootout

battlemechs don't punch, generally

[hollow laurel]

60 BattleMechs, 125 battle armour, and.. 20 fighters?

BattleTech is willing to throw that around.

[rose hill]

well, not quite, many battlemechs do punch

[floral herald]

My vague recollection is that Btech numbers are generally lower than 40k numbers for the biggaton off but not enough to be dispositive

[hollow laurel]

Also yeah, an Atlas will punch you, and you will learn why it has the Battlefists quirk.

[rose hill]

it's not all of them but there's a good number that either can or are even set up to do it

like the hatchetmann

[floral herald]

The biggest advantage they have is probably that 40k doesn’t have the miasma of tiny range justifying super ECM

[vital barn]

it kind of does, depending on the writer

[floral herald]

So maybe it’s just infinity LRMs over the horizon haha

[vital barn]

the Mechanicum definitely do

the opening of Titandeath is a chapter-long description of the ecosystem-level mechanicum war that's happening around the titan fighting

[rose hill]

the hatchetman could pretend to be a weird chaos knight and I don't think anyone would notice

[hollow laurel]

But yes, my big point is that 40k can't really field what BT can in a single place

[vital barn]

as in, "mechanicum insect-sized bots are fighting each other inside the ducting, cyborgs and techpriests are killing each other on the deck, knights are shooting from the battlements, the battlements are on dueling voidships"

[hollow laurel]

They have more but they can't bring it all to slam down.

[floral herald]

Yeah it’s just not universal

[vital barn]

one of the best chapters of that book honestly

60 knights and escort is a fairly normal knight house deployment, honestly

[hollow laurel]

Yes. But that's not a normal thing. Lemme get a known 40k ORBAT.

[vital barn]

600 knights is not, but at any campaign that features 600 knights you probably have Titans involved

[rose hill]

Also the imperium can concentrate force like that but usually only after losing something important and reactionarily going at it

[vital barn]

unless it's a forge world, which probably have dozens of titans on standby and a knight house on quick dial

[hollow laurel]

So, as an example, Battlegroup Haephestus from the Indomitus Crusade, ignoring naval assets.

9 armoured/artillery regiments of Guard.
10 regiments of infantry Guard, 4 airborne

Oops, that went early.

[vital barn]

forge worlds are like WH Fantasy dwarf holds in that they're theoretically incredibly obnoxious to take and fall in every other book to enable the plot

[rose hill]

So my read is that a battle tech force would win a strong initial foothold and then either depending on era of imperium be overwhelmed by reinforcements or someone negotiates a human-human truce because the battlegroup is needed elsewhere

[vital barn]

but they consistently have a lot of lads

[hollow laurel]

3 lances of Knights.
1 Preceptory of Sisters, with 4 additional Commanderies.
10 Maniples of Skitarii
2 Strike Forces of Astartes
Assorted strength of other Astartes

[rose hill]

Or they all get eaten by bugs

[vital barn]

most imperial battlegroups are not equipped to fight a few hundred knights, but most knight or Titan battlegroups absolutely are

the guys in charge of giant robot punchan will throw that many giant robots around

[rose hill]

Also the mechanicus would hear about these weird human piloted mechs and basically throw everything at capturing them

They would break out the Real Goofy Shit

[hollow laurel]

And this is meant to be a representative deployment from the Indomitus Crusade. What even are these unit groupings??

Josie | System at 63 ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) 3 lances of Knights.
1 Preceptory of Sisters, with 4 additional Commanderies.
10 Maniples of Skitari…

[vital barn]

vague enough to justify your entire army, however big it is

a skitarii maniple has oscillated between 35 guys and an entire real-world division depending on the book

[hollow laurel]

Well, I can safely assume that a maniple at least is 120 Skitarii, to be nice to them.

[vital barn]

we have a canon version of this from Damocles actually, where the mech teleported in, marched several thousand skitarii at the Tau gunline, shot all the infantry to death, grabbed a few stormsurges and teleported out again, leaving literally all the guardsmen who had been screaming for help to die

[hollow laurel]

So 1200 Skitarii is er, scary.

[vital barn]

(losing a large fraction of their tinmen in the process, but they don't care)

[rose hill]

Like I said, the real goofy shit

[vital barn]

skitarii are honestly well within battletech capabilities to deal with

[floral herald]

Overall that’s like a reinforced division roughly

In terms of scale

Maybe 2

[hollow laurel]

More in the sense of "that's a lot of souped-up fellas"

[vital barn]

they're mean little infantry but they're only slightly more capable tham Scions

the mean part is probably the special weapons

[hollow laurel]

I was thinking they were on par with Manei Domini.

[vital barn]

plasma LMGs and depleted-uranium antimaterial rifles will put holes in mechs, since they put holes in Knights

and arc rifles probably aren't kind

[hollow laurel]

Ooh, Skitarii field guns. Nice.

[vital barn]

the skits vary hugely in how good they are

[hollow laurel]

But basically, y'all's guess is that BT has like 6-12 months to rampage, and then the Imperium goes "Oh what the fuck are you?"

[vital barn]

in their original codex they were the best damn medium infantry money could buy, in the modern rules they're barely better than guardsmen, and both of those are well-provided-for in lore

[hollow laurel]

Then they get steel chair'd.

[vital barn]

(and then the 30k Skitarii are two metre tall tribal wariors with plasma gunlimbs who will happily headbutt space marines, although they're still not quite on that level)

[rose hill]

Dpending on location and era yeah

If they land somewhere in the imperium nihilus its gonna be a long time

[hollow laurel]

I feel like the IoM would kinda Damocles them? But that also implies they get, well, ground to a halt somewhere.

[vital barn]

this is the setup for one of the campaign books that is About Knights, and as such tends to involve the imperium having a planet completely stomped by way too many giant robots before Hero Knight House has to send in all the knights with their sacristan battlegroup

[sour sequoia]

tbf moooost power scaling arguments kinda go like ‘imperium gets its dick smashed by [competent force] until somebody high enough up has a hissy fit and drops exterminatus orders’

[rose hill]

The imperium grinds to halts in places because there's always a bigger fish

[vital barn]

which is not as common as just throwing more guardsmen and a few marines at the problems but absolutely happens

[rose hill]

Which is why my actual prediction is more like, the imperium goes "oh these are other humans" and negotiates some sort of temporary ceasefire

[vital barn]

I don't think the imperium is that sensible unless bobby G is in the general area

[rose hill]

Meanwhile the mechanicus still tries to steal everything not nailed down

[vital barn]

or they attempt to attack Stygies VII in particular

[hollow laurel]

This leads me back to Cawl moving to NAIS.

[vital barn]

and then if Legio Invicta or whoever is nearby and decides they want to walk here then you have to deal with 4d6 Titans, who are just going to stand wherever they stand and you can't really deal with them unless you have a lot of those battletech jumpy dudes

Elementals?

[rose hill]

Yes

[vital barn]

probably good for a surprise titan boarding operation, but Titans tend to have Myrmidons on board, who will give those a damn good fight

[rose hill]

Again its going to depend super heavily on era and location

But ultimately if the imperium can concentrate any sort of force its over

[vital barn]

one of the best fights in Titandeath is "Sanguinius and the Sanguinary Guard do an orbital drop directly onto an imperator titan"

[rose hill]

And at best for battle tech its eternal grinding war. Which, to be fair, everyone involved is used to

[vital barn]

they win, of course, but the Titan myrmidax go kill for kill with them

[hollow laurel]

I think BT vs the T'au would be very funny though. Either the two can vaguely cooperate, or they immediately go into total war mode.

[rose hill]

The most "ah shit, again?" Outcome

[vital barn]

oh yeah, standard skitarii air defence platform, which your average titan legion has a bunch of just kind of standing around

not posting this for commentary reasons but just because I think it looks kind of cute

[hollow laurel]

We have that too! :D

[vital barn]

it's the one big camera lens and tiny grabby arm

[hollow laurel]

https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/8/89/Rifleman_RGilClan_v08.png

I love both of them, they're great.

[vital barn]

like most mechanicus tanks they look kind of like shit but somehow fit an energy shield and a neutron laser onto that tin can

[mental birch]

I mean isn't a skittari vanguard deployment at scale ecosystem wrecking

With Radium nonsense

[hollow laurel]

Hold on, I have an armadillo-looking fella to show off.

[vital barn]

yeah, but a Skitarii Vanguard deployment at scale is ten million skitarii, because the Mechanicus is one of the factions that occasionally remembers what scale it's meant to be fighting at

[hollow laurel]

I don't know why this is a GIF.
https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/a/a0/Heimdall_ground_monitor_tank.gif

[vital barn]

space marines tend to cap out at a few thousand dudes, but Guard and Admech are occasionally written at genuinely impressive scale because they don't have to protagonist all over the place

[mental birch]

Also I do joke Crisis Suits are Elementals not battlemech

[hollow laurel]

Honestly, I think BattleTech can deal with Guard pretty easily.

[mental birch]

Riptides are like light battlemechs

[vital barn]

guard are chumps until they're not, as usual

[mental birch]

^

[hollow laurel]

XV-8s and the like call more into the ProtoMech area.

Admiral (she/her) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) Also I do joke Crisis Suits are Elementals not battlemech

[mental birch]

Protomechs that small?

[hollow laurel]

Okay, Guard infantry is not an issue. Guard armour and Guard artillery yes.

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) guard are chumps until they're not, as usual

They're like 2-15t?

Admiral (she/her) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) Protomechs that small?

[vital barn]

the one thing that might make guard quite nasty is that they have lascannons everywhere and lascannons are actually quite good

[hollow laurel]

ProtoMechs are just fucking weird.

[vital barn]

average lasgun squad not so scary

[floral herald]

I mean yeah the point of guard infantry is to dig fighting positions for the tanks :p

[vital barn]

ah, here's the book I was thinking of, let me see if it mentions knight numbers

[mental birch]

A crisis suit is like 1 and a half guardsman tall

[floral herald]

Yeah the 40k calc advantage kinda manifests there

[mental birch]

It's tiny compared to most mechs

[vital barn]

(solid 6/10 book, don't regret reading it to kill time)

[floral herald]

My vague recollection (so maybe don’t take super seriously) is roughly plasma gun=medium laser

[hollow laurel]

Okay, that's just some big battle armour.

[vital barn]

it's the Knight Book, so it's literally "five knight houses land on one planet and have a civil war"

[mental birch]

Yeah Crisis are orbital drop battle armour

[vital barn]

I think that's about 300 knights?

I will check text

[mental birch]

Riptide is probably light mech

I think maybe medium at best

But they're light

[floral herald]

Which makes a weapons platoon a credible threat to a mech

[vital barn]

also: nova guard, please stop doing this

skimming Titanicus legios

press button to fire extremely BM laser, titan immediately starts complaining loudly

[hollow laurel]

I like to refer to Elementals as Jump Termies because that's what they'er like to me.

[vital barn]

as I understand it, Elementals compare similarly to Less Grimdark Thallax

[mental birch]

Elementals weirdly are slower than termies

Strategically

[vital barn]

thallax

[mental birch]

Teleportation covereth many sins

[hollow laurel]

Strategically, sure. But they're faster tactically.

[vital barn]

they are about terminator sized

and come with jump packs

3+ save, T5, 2W, which is slightly worse armour than a terminator but similar beef

[hollow laurel]

I can see that.

Misc | Naval RA-chitect ↩️

[(click to see attachment)](#1161696278640594954 message)

[mental birch]

Crisis suits go into

Huh 50mm base, 3+ save 4-5 wounds

[hollow laurel]

Yeah, I can see Elementals and Thallaxes being largely comparible.

[mental birch]

T5

[vital barn]

Crisis suits are on the 10th ed scale now, which is different to the HH scale the thallax are on

more wounds, more toughness, more firepower just everywhere

let me check 7th ed crisis suits

[mental birch]

2 wounds I think?

T4

[rose hill]

Honestly thr biggest battle tech mismatch is gonna be space power

[hollow laurel]

Absolutely. BT can level it with boarding, but that's risky.

[vital barn]

yeah

[hollow laurel]

I have to say though, this has been a deeply enjoyable conversation.

[mental birch]

Boarding? Huh

[vital barn]

3+ save, so and 7e thallax had 4+, so they have slightly better armour but are slightly squishier

[mental birch]

Evens out

Then

[soft willow]

I feel like any Battletech vs 40k fight is lost by Battletech in space, because even the big Clan warships are goofy nothings in 40k's naval space.

[hollow laurel]

Enjoy having Battle Armour rattling around in your 10,000 year old ship.

Admiral (she/her) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161696278640594954 message) Boarding? Huh

[floral herald]

Old scale XV8s are basically just big space marines

[vital barn]

crisis suits get way more guns than Thallax, but thallax are better shots at base and, strangely, have better sensors

[mental birch]

Up for a good old game of space hulk then

[floral herald]

Something something presumed eaten by locals

[vital barn]

mechanicum tech is weird

[jaunty dawn]

Crisis being t4 even in 7 is wild

[floral herald]

Oh man this is now a really old joke

[vital barn]

7th was a strange edition

[thin ibex]

Is teleporting just completely reliable now retroactively in the lore?

[hollow laurel]

The problem 40k has is DropShips. They're big enough to fend off aerospace fighters, but small enough to avoid big guns.

[vital barn]

hang on how big is a dropship

[hollow laurel]

Like, Very variable.

[vital barn]

because 40k space fighters have a bit of lore-inconsistency here too

[hollow laurel]

Anywhere from 200t to 100,000t.

[vital barn]

sometimes they just use thunderbolts, which are WW2 planes with lascannons

[mental birch]

40k space fighters are Manta sized

[vital barn]

in BFG they use Space Sharks, which are 70 metres long

and then the Dark Mechanicum use the squidbots from The Matrix but way bigger

[hollow laurel]

The iconic ones are 1,720t (Leopard) and 9,700t (Overlord)

[hollow laurel]

Though those are both BattleMech transports.

[vital barn]

I can't believe I'm saying this but the HH stats for Marines, Mech and Imperial Militia feel more reflective of what I consider a good interpretation of the lore than either the 1e HH stats or the 10e stats

[mental birch]

Wait barracuda

[vital barn]

you can make militia who can fight marines, but they'll probably be more expensive and more specialised

[hollow laurel]

The premier Elemental transport is 3,000t but carries 75 of the buggers.