You just scrape out some time and throw some music on, I had a lot of Miles Davis n Sun Ra
#Warhammer and Such
sour sequoia
thin ibex
Do you paint one model to completion at a time or do you go in waves?
Like big layer passes in batches?
brisk flint
sour sequoia
Do you paint one model to completion at a time or do you go in waves?
Normally I do a model at a time. For this, it was just pure assembly line batch painting for the most part, I’d do 5 models basecoated -> character to completion -> 5 models basecoated -> character to completion
5 is about the biggest batch I can do without getting despondent midway through, its important to keep yourself feeling good about painting instead of going ‘lol I will totally be happy painting 60 guys in one go painting each element on every guy before moving on’
tired cairn
Oh, rules for"neutral" in the regular game too
pine matrix
https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/zscdwwzf/old-world-almanack-a...
Pretty cool they confirm that the Dragon Emperor is, like, a legit dragon from Before
Kinda makes him a bit more sinister, seems he is just biding his time
paper bluff
Dude would have legitimate beef with the old ones fucking up the planet so much and the lizardmen
pine matrix
Dragon Emperor grumbling about when the sun was further away and his kids being like "what the fuck is he talking about"
thin ibex
how important is indirect fire to you SM players/
im trying to figure out if i work to make enough room to slot a whirlwind into my list
floral herald
Not much of a loyalist player but WWs are good
thin ibex
hmm, 190 points is pricey, but can be very indluential
fluential
what im working with
thin ibex
im thinking i just dont have a ww and play aggro
paper bluff
Wws?
floral herald
Whirlwinds
faint galleon
in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war
hardy harness
thin ibex
Hmm any Tsons players? What's the best application for the new stealth bots? Just roadblock infiltrate?
upper bluff
I'm no expert on tsons but infiltrator and flamers makes them area denial kings
Just an aura of don't walk here
sour sequoia
Play them the way genestealers players use flamer acolytes & metamorphs tbh yeah
They’re funny area denial & anti-scout sentries
past sphinx
all the sword arms for the head takers are left handed so i think i could kitbash blade guard vets to dual weapon head takes not to badly
quaint compass
Ye
Though I've had some luck replacing the pistol on a hand with a melee weapon
It tends to require some coverage or resculpting
pulsar cairn
Are they gonna be space wolves too?
past sphinx
Yes
past sphinx
Ones got the dog head and everything
pulsar cairn
nice!
humble plover
got my typhon preorder in!!
brittle salmon
hmm, looks a little different 
rocky shale
got my typhon preorder in!!
Oh lol I think we might order from the same LGS
humble plover
ah mines not an LGS, I ordered from a national store
rocky shale
Ohhh, there's an LGS near here that has online stuff via shopify
humble plover
oh there is?
rocky shale
Herrick Games yeah
Tiny store that's only open one night a week since the owner works a tech job and it's his side hustle
Super nice guy, great stock
Sells at discounts of MSRP
humble plover
oh thats cool
the LGS I go to is Games of Berkeley, but I couldn't get a preorder from them
rocky shale
All the more normal LGS's here dont offer discounts off MRSP so I usually just buy paint and smaller stuff there and do any bigger purchases where the discount matters
Benefit to a tiny store though is sometimes its easier to get preorders
humble plover
makes sense makes sense
rocky shale
If I pay full price for something that isnt like a big SM release, i'm basically always gonna get one
I was the only one at my store to order the knights box lmao
humble plover
ooh this is all very good info
I'm moving to a city much closer to this place than I currently am in August, so I will definitely check them out
rocky shale
Nice nice. I'm just out of the bay so its quite close to me.
floral herald
The servitor battleclade is gonna be so annoying (positive) haha
floral herald
Wahoo got Typhon
pine matrix
Noice
tranquil ivy
hmm, looks a little different <:clueless:1195459721520480436>
what a bizarre looking Vindicator 👁️
floral herald
Noice
I’m looking forward to the pve stuff honestly
Might be a nice break from how intense KT comp can be
thin ibex
pve stuff?
floral herald
There’s a bunch of extra Tyranid models (rippers and new hormagaunts) for coop play
pastel rampart
Lotta people suggest Kill Team, as it's both more tightly-written rules-wise and a hell of a lot easier on the wallet.
jaunty dawn
Yeah I wanna try the pve stuff with my dad cause the competitive stuff is kinda tricky
Though I do wanna try pvp with the pathfinder buffs I suppose
upper bluff
Does the new kill team edition still have rules for space marine intercessors and Skitarii?
upper bluff
Perfect lol. My dad has been wanting to get into Warhammer so I thought I could get him a box of intercessors
And if Skitarii still have a kill team we can play kill team
jaunty dawn
Oh except intercessors now have a heavy bolter or a sniper
Because they got merged with the warhammer heroes thing
upper bluff
Oh and heavy bolter isn't in the box hmmm I can just sub one of my models for now whatever
jaunty dawn
It easy to proxy kinda cause either way that model uses a 40mm base
So if theres a spare you can pretty much just blue tac etc on top of that
humble plover
Intercessors are now the Angels of Death kill team, and Skiitari are Hunter Clade
empty siren
I saw a lot of debate around the Kauyon change
Cause I too was confused a little bit on how people interpreted. As I'm no rules lawyer
Man. I feel like they could've just put the ballistic skill or hit roll modifier, at the front. Then added a: "in addition, from the third battleround onwards, sustained hits."
Like just swap their places. Cause, I can see people trying to interpret as ignore modifiers the entire game, because they want to cheese it. But also, some people see it as the assault bit on Mont'ka, cause that's active the whole game
If GW clarifies that its active all game. Then idk why they didn't put the guided units ignore any or all BS or hit roll modifiers at the front and the "from the third battle round onwards." At the end
empty siren
Doing a 2k game tonight. I decided. Tri-ray. For funzees
rocky shale
I do like knights
Do it
They're even more balanced at 1k now
1 big and 4 armigers/dogs and some ally units is a 1k list
rocky shale
Down to two chaos knights lists for my 1k crusade
Tratoris
Abom with mirror
2x karni
Hunstsman
Stalker (chaincannon+claw)
10x Plaguebearers
Infernal lance
Gatling Gary (despoiler) with stalker, malevolent heraldry, or viel
Same war dogs
3x nurglings
Beast of nurgle
sour sequoia
Teams tourney scoring yesterday, my ability to get us three 10-10 draws in a row got us to third place. The absurd GSC-army-in-a-month project paid off
I plead the fifth on team name I joined it to avoid any odds of fighting into plague legion & death guard 💀
runic swallow
If it was Pert instead of Alpharius I’d say that this was an accurate recreation of the Iron Cage
runic swallow
Teams tourney scoring yesterday, my ability to get us three 10-10 draws in a row...
Look, at least you have a fun name rather than a generic one!
sour sequoia
There were some real good list names across all those, I think some folks just like to keep it straightforward when we’re coming from all over the place
At least one eight-hour roadtrip was made for an RTT
dense idol
so i have a friend who's trying to cook some homebrew datasheets for his custom chapter
and he's given me the go-ahead to post his most recent draft here, for the feedback of internet strangers
rocky shale
The point costs seem super wierd to me. Why is it only 80 points to add 5 more models?
rocky shale
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1350984937326641275/1383877524546650323/W...
These look way stronger than GK terminators for the exact same cost for a 10man
dense idol
they're definitely still undercosted, yes
rocky shale
At 320 for a 5 man/640 for 10 they'd probably be fine just because that's absurdly expensive for one unit
But 13 good melee swings per model is absurd
And they have a wildly better ranged profile than a normal terminator
floral herald
Oh wow I didn’t notice extra attacks
rocky shale
At 320 for 5 these are actually more expensive than allarus custodians per model.
They have 2 less toughness, worse OC, 1 worse BS/WS and slightly worse abilities but their weapon profiles are substantially better.
The -4 AP dev wounds extra attacks is wild
dense idol
my initial feedback was to pull the power level and points cost way back, and cut the weapon profiles down to emphasize their unique shotgun-shield gimmick, maybe with some kind of unique ranged/melee/defensive stance ability
rocky shale
I would cut the swappable weapon profiles in general. Multiple weapon profiles on extra attacks is super janky.
I'd definitely lean into the shield thing and not also give them a special storm bolter and special power swords
Lmao at 320 points for 5 these would cost as much as a knight abominant
But also with a 10 man you'd be rolling 130 3+hits on a charge
upper bluff
If the idea is to make custodes then this looks great otherwise I definitely think strength 5 stormbolters is crazy
Also upgrading to 10 should not be so cheap
rocky shale
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1350984937326641275/1383907083002445975/W...
Why is the 10 man discounted? Usually 10s are more expensive
past sphinx
warpstrike you say? and these are allegeded loyalists you say?
jaunty dawn
Id put extra attacks on the sword instead and give it like 2 attacks
rocky shale
Also this is now cheaper than GK termies and still a lot stronger.
Is your friend using existing termie datasheets as a reference?
jaunty dawn
Like look at the gravis captain; dual wield doesnt usually mean double attacks
dense idol
Is your friend using existing termie datasheets as a reference?
unclear, i do keep suggesting it
dense idol
warpstrike you say? and these are allegeded loyalists you say?
his homebrew chapter's got space wolves levels of heresy-edging going on, as i understand it
past sphinx
heresy? in the wolves?
rocky shale
These still get 13 melee attacks per model
upper bluff
Oh good Lord I didn't even notice that lmao
I wish I knew how to do the math but these guys are absolutley chopping through marine squads with strength 5 ap 2
rocky shale
AP4 on infantry melee is something I've only ever seen on Fuegan's datasheet
rocky shale
I wish I knew how to do the math but these guys are absolutley chopping through ...
The blast profile on the shields will clear most of a squad before they even charge
floral herald
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1350984937326641275/1383907083002445975/W...
I don’t think you can charge chaos terminator prices for +1 W 13 attack fellas
upper bluff
True, if goo's friend is willing to concede the blast profile to only the squad Sargeant I could see it staying the way it is though
floral herald
I don’t think you can charge chaos terminator prices for +1 W 13 attack fellas
And that’s before range
(Chaos termies are 180/360 for reference)
rocky shale
15 shots (not even including blast) on 3s (10 hit) , wound on 3s (6.66 wound), save on 5s, is like 4 dead marines
Add +2 shots per model for a 10 man squad and your 5 termies clear like 6-7 marines without even shooting the storm bolters
On average
So you can deep strike, shoot out a squad of 10 marines, then chanrge something else with 65 melee attacks
past sphinx
(Chaos termies are 180/360 for reference)
and theyre not even good!
rocky shale
I don’t think you can charge chaos terminator prices for +1 W 13 attack fellas
It's +1S not to wound which is a bit worse
But the weapon profiles are insane
floral herald
It's +1S not to wound which is a bit worse
No they’re 4 wounders not 3 wounders
upper bluff
I do think they should stay 4 wound to show the extra defense from the shield
floral herald
They’re already getting a gun and extra attacks out of it haha
rocky shale
No they’re 4 wounders not 3 wounders
Oh I thought you meant the data sheet ability
rocky shale
I do think they should stay 4 wound to show the extra defense from the shield
Normally you lose offense from a shield
I didn't even realize these were 4W
upper bluff
Like I definitely think that goo's friend wants the shield to do both and the cost should reflect that especially since they aren't optional gear
But as it is now these units would give custodes a run for their money for half the cost
floral herald
Yeah they don’t look necessarily OP but the cost needs to be really high for something like this
floral herald
and theyre not even good!
Yeah the normal ones are meh (like many terminators haha)
WEeaters termies are good iirc
I think EC ones are… decent as well
tepid stratus
EC ones are bad, they don't fulfill a role in the army other units aren't doing better and their rule is antithetical to what they want to do
floral herald
They’re a little tougher than baseline which is nice for typically fragile MEQs but yeah the EC list is full of higher octane fast movers they can just lean into
And they’re cheap for termies
It’s weird that they don’t get anything but a 5 model unit though
tepid stratus
They're gimmick I suppose is being tanky infantry but compared to other terminators they're fragile due to lack of a storm shield or other damage mitigation, and being locked to a 5 man squad. They also want to shoot the thing they're charging which hurts against infantry because a smart opponent will pull casualties to make the charge harder while they could shoot a vehicle with abandon but lack the strength to melee a vehicle to death
This is why I believe we should get phoenix terminators who will at least be great infantry shredders or duelists
rocky shale
What's the most melee attacks on another infantry unit? I feel like extra attacks is basically only ever for monsters or characters or vehicles.
tepid stratus
Most I've seen is I think raveners getting up to 5 per model
upper bluff
I still think they're too cheap for how strong they are but I think everything else is great
floral herald
There’s some blast gunnery units which can potentially get really stupid high attack numbers
Hearth guard getting lucky is silly high
rocky shale
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1350984937326641275/1383914909300949083/W...
IMO the shield should be one high strength low attacks profile and the sword can stay how it is, and the shield can drop extra attacks so you just pick shield or sword
upper bluff
I like the idea of a pistol profile on a weapon
It's a design space that feels natural but weirdly unexplored
Like of course there should be a weaker gun profile that can be used in melee without being a literal pistol
thin ibex
incursor carbines should have pistol imo
honestly wouldnt hate if terminators had pistol on the storm bolters
rocky shale
If you deleted the sweep profile and removed extra attacks from the shields you might be on to something
tepid stratus
Honestly all custodes weapons should have pistol
thin ibex
would be neat, they're not super duper impactful most of the time right?
as i understand it, custodes win and lose in the fight phase
tepid stratus
You might kill a marine or two. 2 shots at ap -1 2 damage isn't much inna small model count
past sphinx
it would make advance and charge REALLY strong
advance, charge and kill the units below its efficiency into your 4++, shoot them next turn and maybe wipe them out with the double shoot if you need to
unreal cosmos
I wanna name all my wolf officers after fictional female werewolves
past sphinx
i think i might have once done pyschological warfare on a newer player by telling him the names of all my Night lord characters
upper bluff
Lmao
past sphinx
are the vampire counts technically part of the empire?
thin ibex
for at least large portions of hte narrative yeah, the von carsteins were/are an elector count family?
runic swallow
Yeah, he still legally had and occasionally used his noble status
Or one of them did at least, I dunno about all of them
west zealot
Yoink Sploinky DOinky is a great name,a nd also they better ber able to pention the dread four to cmibne into the Yoinsploindoin.
mental birch
That's a relief
jaunty dawn
I hope someone was servitorised for that blunder
quaint compass
The blunderizer should meet the servitorizer
tired cairn
Really, whoever decided most products should be limited print run such that editors would assume this would be the case, should be servitorised
paper bluff
There's that rumor engine skull and we called it with black templars
main pagoda
"Reducing the Hull Points of a location to zero doesn’t outright destroy a Titan, but rather cripples that location, causing further attacks to roll against a lower armour value and cause devastating internal damage. " Battletech damage in my 30k hell yeah
paper bluff
People still will not regularly run titans
brittle salmon
severely
main pagoda
them losing the damage table also prevents them from being crippled by a single hit which is nice
floral herald
but big tanks will stick around longer
Good
thin ibex
hmm wasn't tank survival a big deal in 40k 8th and 9th too? Interesting to see the same problem crop up
upper bluff
I think it's always going to be a problem in games because like how do you make something that is simultaneously strong and resilient without it feeling oppressive
And they're just naturally bigger and scarier targets
tepid stratus
I just want anything bigger than a predator to be able to survive more than one lascannon shot. Losing a spartan to a lucky lascannon shot is a huge feels bad
The 8th and 9th edition problem definitely extended from the smaller range of toughness values making anything that was an efficient marine killer (str 8+) also effectively an anti tank weapon. Thunder hammers and power fists where universally good as a result
pastel rampart
Oh that's been a recurring problem in 40k, basically how 4th and 5th ed worked out.
tepid stratus
Sure it sucks that terminators now can't kill tanks without some major buffing or a dedicated anti vehicle weapon but it does mean 10 man termie bricks aren't the obvious dominant choice for armies like CSM
pastel rampart
5th was peak Melta Edition™️ and you didn't bother with anything that couldn't reliably pop a tank.
tepid stratus
It's been really interesting seeing different terminators balance out in 10th. CSM termies are still good with the buffet of buff options they have. Death wing knights are peak elite termie. Death shrouds are proper scary infantry blenders. Paladins and generic space marine termies do feel like they're struggling to fill a niche tho
Paladins at least have a built in ancient and apothecary I suppose
But at least in my experience I haven't seen space marines run generic terminators. Gravis armoured options always seem to be the more popular picks. Inceptors, eradicators and heavy intercessors in particular
I occasionally have seen scarabs hit the table. Don't know how world eaters termies are doing but EC's are having an identity crisis
floral herald
5th was peak Melta Edition™️ and you didn't bother with anything that couldn't r...
This did depend on your army some but yeah
The melta armies took a lot of Meltas
(I played Orks so my antitank was mostly buried Nob Leaders with power klaws)
pastel rampart
Yeah. You took anything S8+ every time, but ideally meltas. Nothing else really mattered.
runic swallow
That sweet sweet half range bonus
pastel rampart
CSM had combi-melta armed terminators to teleport in and fire at the rear armor. Bare-bones, usually nothing else, but damn effective.
pastel rampart
Yup! And if it didn't, oh well, may as well write'em off at that point because if you're not popping the vehicle on that turn the unit was basically finished.
Arming them with power/chainfists made them more expensive and not really worth the points cost.
runic swallow
I swore they came with fists
pastel rampart
Nope! Power weapons.
runic swallow
Or wait, was this when they had swords base
Ah yeah
Right, I always tended to just give ‘em the fists anyways
runic swallow
The flamer also wasn’t that bad, since back then you could deep strike wherever you wanted with the risk of getting telefragged
pastel rampart
It wasn't terrible and if you were playing casually against a horde it could do some damage, but the combi-melta was the superior choice most of the time.
runic swallow
Yeah
pastel rampart
Unfortunately most of that codex sucked and you had a very specific number of good units that everyone took, and that typically was:
- dual flying daemon princes
- combi-melta terminators
- minimum CSM troops
- Bikes, sometimes?
- 3x Vindicators
You'd sometimes see a Predator or Defiler, but practically never see Raptors or Spawn and Cult troops were relatively rare since they cost too much for what they did (which wasn't all that impressive).
Possessed sucked, Chosen had on paper a good set of weapons on offer but had movement problems (rhino only, no deepstrike) and weren't any more impressive than a basic CSM, and dreads were unreliable thanks to Crazed meaning they'd sometimes just fuck off on their own.
runic swallow
Yep
pastel rampart
It was emblematic of the game as a whole, really. A lot of codices had that problem where technically it had plenty of units to pick from but very few of them were worth taking.
bright dove
I was a fan of the Devastator equivalents
runic swallow
Havocs
bright dove
Ye, Havocs were nice enough.
pastel rampart
Havocs were fun but same problem as Chosen in that they had only one transport option and also vulnerable to shooting unless you stuck'em in cover.
That and their best long-range anti-tank was the lascannon at 35pts.
floral herald
The flamer also wasn’t that bad, since back then you could deep strike wherever ...
You could telefrag in 5e
floral herald
Unfortunately most of that codex sucked and you had a very specific number of go...
Obliterators were also good
bright dove
Oblits just did the job you needed them to do, no questions asked.
pastel rampart
Yeah, though Oblits were 75ppm which is rough when you have combi-terminators at 35ppm.
Oblits were the only way to get multi-meltas tho, so there's that.
floral herald
I saw lots of em nonetheless
They were also the only way to get plascannons for CSM
bright dove
Deep strike and not stuck with having to choose weapons specifically.
pastel rampart
Oh wait dreads could get multi-meltas and plasma cannons too but lol, lmao
runic swallow
You could telefrag in 5e
Oh I know, I’m talking about it as compared to now
floral herald
Ah fair
floral herald
Oh wait dreads could get multi-meltas and plasma cannons too but lol, lmao
Oh huh
pastel rampart
Yeah.
floral herald
I only ever saw a chaos dread once
bright dove
In addition to Crazed, they're just... Not very resilient.
pastel rampart
Yeah, armor 12 doesn't do much in the land of meltas and power klaws.
runic swallow
I forget what extra armor did, was that reroll stunned or something?
bright dove
Hell, it's dangerous in the land of Plasma.
floral herald
I forget what extra armor did, was that reroll stunned or something?
Downgraded stunned to shaken iirc
pastel rampart
One of the more flavorful elements was Bile's ability to do enhanced warrior squads.
Not exactly optimal but fun nonetheless.
Also the only special character that did anything interesting for army comp.
runic swallow
Ah man, remember the penal legion rules that were kinda similar?
thin ibex
convo has moved on but i will say tanks in 10th are actually pretty survivable, they managed to fix the oppressive bit for the most part with the way ruins obscure los
maning they can't just sit back and shoot all day
the opponent can play the map and force LoS/Cover play
jaunty dawn
Tanks are survivable now cause they retconned 90% of antitank weapons
Like the toughness increase stuff is good! Really opens up space
But thats what actually made the difference. It would work just as well in any other system
past sphinx
grav and conversion beemers dont even do the things they are built to do now
thin ibex
Grav and conversation kind of do though, with access to anti and volume fire, or crit on a 4+ with dev wounds
Meltas are a lot less consistent but still do big punches
And the specialist anti armor melta units often get full rerolls that make them extremely lethal
Grav canons have decent str and ap, and often come flush with anti vehicle 2+
Conversion usually crits on a... 5? When on the outer half of its range
past sphinx
their far more skewed into being good at killing terminators tho
not everything can be a las cannon but 2-3 damage just doesnt kill tanks in the sorta double time you need the anti tank weapon to do it in
thin ibex
I think the idea is usually that only the biggest AT can pop a tank in one go. With the projected ttk usually being like 3 rounds otherwise, unless you use big combos
Like a grav drop can disembowel most vehicles well.
Eradicators can eat pretty much any vehicle for breakfast
Conversion is more swingy, but I had thunderkyn 100-0 a stormsurge without too much effort
past sphinx
i think the answer is sadly
bringing bracketing back
(in its more serious form circ like 8th)
i dont need to take all las cannons IF i can keep something at bay by crippling it
floral herald
What’s bracketing in this context?
floral herald
Ahh
thin ibex
Tbh i don't know that the brackets in that way need to come back vehicles generally feel like they're in a decent place
upper bluff
Yeah most vehicles do get damaged it just matters less because they don't normally survive at low hp
thin ibex
like yes it feels weird sometimes when melta struggles to wound, but also, when looking at the game like a mechanical overview, it kinda works
tepid stratus
Yeah meltas struggle to wound but when they do they make the biggest impact
It's the gamble with them
That being said they shred light vehicles
pulsar cairn
Some people like to gamba
tepid stratus
Or just be an army that can cheat the wound roll like sisters lol
pulsar cairn
Do Ork players gamba a lot? I only know the funny rules like pain boy having a risk to kill your unit
bright dove
Ork players love rolling dice
finite compass
thin ibex
i like to include meltas on the squads that can take them purely for psychological effect of knowing that even my weakest boys could lay into an unwary target
though i understand my grey hunters are no longer gonna have that option
but ill take that 3oc as a fair trade
tardy vault
Do Ork players gamba a lot? I only know the funny rules like pain boy having a r...
Ork tend to have shit accuracy but they roll a lot. It's a long standing joke that ork players just roll dice by the bucket
Hell, for a hot minute they were rolling so many dice that they broke the competitive scene.
floral herald
It’s not gambling with this many dice rolled our green asses cleave close to the mean
runic swallow
Yeah that’s just statistical averaging
floral herald
(We don’t gotta talk about weapons which fire 1d6 crazy good shots)
runic swallow
But da Mek worked ‘ard on dat!
floral herald
It’z
Naff
thin ibex
I will say, the one thing 8th had going for orks was the sheer volume of shots
dense idol
It’z
# Naff
S'NOT MY'Z FOLT YOU'Z CAN'T STRATEE-JAIZE 'ROUND TAKTICKUL UNSERTEN'-TY, Y'ZOGGIN GIT
floral herald
When I played Orks we did AT the proper way
A rickety little bridge for the nob to clamber out on and go to down
Or a deff rolla
runic swallow
With a rocket on a hammer?
floral herald
No just a power klaw
I didn’t fuck with Tankbustas
But 4 S9 swings on a nob kills most vehicles with some reliability
runic swallow
It’s pretty wild how the tankbusta rocket hammer is only mildly more out there than the irl lunge mine
thin ibex
I find that bully boys used big nob blobs that's easily output like 40 claw attacks. Pretty much able to kill anything
EXCEPT my monolith, which i was able to confidently face tank them and win me the game
because the nobs were overrunning everything
also my ctan shard god rolled their fnps against meganobz
finite compass
NGL
The common strategy of "Single cheap anti-tank unit that's kamikaze'd at the enemy like a single-use rocket launcher" seems to be very Orky in mindset.
pastel rampart
thin ibex
lol went for a theme
hopefully gonna deepstrike all over the map and be scary as heck
they're pretty much my only anti terminator too
twin linked forgives many sins
past sphinx
you can always go for the tradition nightlord pass time of crime and piracy
because boy dread talons
😦
thin ibex
honestly they're pretty decent as melee speedy guys
just go hunting chaff and objective holders
past sphinx
i need to give talons another shot
raptors and talons just havent reqally connected in my games
thin ibex
i think the main thing is that on their own they're not big DOER units, like they're both kind of intended for chaff/weak hunting rather than big hunting
though the talons play better into big stuff cause of twin linked and 2 ap
unless your melta's go off
past sphinx
you'd think 4 fucking melta guns or S5 ap3 would be enough
but its always the legionaries and the chosen as the gods intended that do the work
thin ibex
yeah i see raptors as more of a combo piece, threaten enemy home objective, tie up an important enemy; double down on the bshock effect too
talons are meant to hunt ranged specialist infantry and then get out as i see them
past sphinx
taking them with harkaan is a pretty okay tarpit for killing characters
thin ibex
ive seen nids shift a game with their shadow in the warp bshock play before
which was pretty cool
pulsar cairn
Question
Is the black rage common knowledge amongst space marines?
does it depend if the space marine knows history?
main pagoda
at this point yes
pulsar cairn
Blood angels also have lots of chapters right? I imagine that helped spread the awareness of it
pulsar cairn
It sure did, i was just wondering if its something that people would forget a bit about considering it has been 10 thousand years
And we also dont have any horus heresy veterans outside of that one space wolf
main pagoda
When an entire legion falls to it for time it tends to stick in memory
pulsar cairn
Right 
past sphinx
the black rage is the shame of the legion but the thirst is the secret
that shit they keep a lid on and if they find a chapter doing blood rituals they will excommunicate their asses
ebon dirge
Libators don't drink for their blood rituals, so they get a free pass
floral herald
Is the black rage common knowledge amongst space marines?
No, but it’s not a super well kept secret. They still get surprised by it from time to time
paper bluff
that shit they keep a lid on and if they find a chapter doing blood rituals they...
Isn't their implantation thing sealing the recruit in a coffin and pumping san guinius blood through them?
west zealot
Isn't their implantation thing sealing the recruit in a coffin and pumping san g...
"At the end of the vigil, the remaining aspirants are offered a chalice (rumoured to contain a small portion of Sangunius's own blood) by the Sanguinary Priests. After partaking it, they fall into a coma and are entombed by the Blood-Servitors inside the caskets of the Hall of the Sacrophagi. They remain there for a full year, in full care of the casket's life-support systems, while they are injected with blood of the Sanguinius. Many die, incapable of bearing the vast changes wrought upon them by the gene-seed; others wake up too early and grow insane from their dark and claustrophobic existence. The ones who completely adapt, however, become the newest additions to the chapter"
paper bluff
Aye, I did remember!
Now if only I could forget the thing with the old black templars
glad spear
One of the gigachads of the Warhammer extended verse
Lord Kroak the OG
Bro got 12v1ed by greater demons, was ripped apart, and his soul went "I didn't hear no bell," and went supernova vaporizing all demons for multiple miles, and he's still around
west zealot
Bro got 12v1ed by greater demons, was ripped apart, and his soul went "I didn't ...
My favourite bit is when he re-emerged in age of sigmar, everyone got clowned on as the stars themselves were re-arranged to make a grinning frog face.
deft crest
Isnt the classification of Amphibian and Reptile like super arbitrary? 
floral herald
Afaik no it’s pretty biologically significant
tired cairn
It's reptiles and birds that are really close
junior robin
finally, emperors children blue oni/red oni primaris lieutenant
was going to say Tau but the tube feels wrong, so Votann? 🤔
pastel rampart
Could be admech
thin ibex
electro priest upgrade
floral herald
Does HH stuff appear in rumor engine?
thin ibex
oh wait that might be a bullgryn club too
glad spear
Yeah that's not Tau
floral herald
Does HH stuff appear in rumor engine?
I get similar vibes from a lot of HH character weapons
tired cairn
I see they carefully cut it off so you can't tell if it is a club or part of a larger weapon
still warren
Clearly it's a genestealer using a stop light
pulsar cairn
Sooo
Commissars are outside of the normal chain of command
But they do take command of troops sometimes dont they?
I see Cain doing it often
Are they expected to?
I thought they were there simply to keep discipline
main pagoda
Commissars exist to support the CoC and if that includes taking command of troops so be it. They are typically better trained at leading men than most so it makes sense
floral herald
Are they expected to?
Short answer, no. Commissars do not have direct command authority in most cases (Abnett in particular has a lot of commissar dual commands though) but because loyalty and discipline are their wheelhouse they have a lot of de facto authority.
tired cairn
They certainly seem to end up being in charge a lot
charred bridge
If they commandeer an Astra militarum operations it's not an issue assuming they do well
But sort of limited by success and like many do like a regiment, generally they don't have like, mobilize an entire planet to fight on another planet authority and those cases are rare. It's moreso hey I dropped in this region that's doing bad, I'm taking command of every battlation in this continent
Cause if someone like Cain says your troops in the area are going to divert elsewhere, unless you're very influential it's best to listen otherwise your troops might disagree in the form of disobedience, and it's easier for a soldier to say, have a friendly fire incident, than to say no to your commanding officer.
floral herald
But sort of limited by success and like many do like a regiment, generally they ...
Commissar’s don’t usually have that kind of authority, at least not a normal ranked commissar (there’s a bunch of ambiguous higher ranks like lord-commissar and commissar-captain)
runic swallow
It’s a thing where on paper they have no authority, but in practice the scary man with near-unlimited authority suggests you do something while his hand rests on his holster you seriously take it under advisement
floral herald
Yeah in theory they’re supposed to advise an officer who actually has command
But below like, general ranks they can also just shoot the officer so they carry a lot of command authority because of the implication
tired cairn
Oh, there are also different ranks of Commisar right? Most are... squad level? Is a Lord Commisar aproximately general level?
floral herald
There’s multiple ranks
“Commissar” is either company or regiment level (it’s not consistent iirc)
runic swallow
It’s very weird since there’s in-universe and on-table
Since I think the lowest level is supposed to be like, platoon level?
Or yeah company
tired cairn
I think the stereotypical "Commissar is now in charge" situation is that the commissar just shot the officer for being a "coward" and no one else wants to get shot
I think the way to interpret a lot of leader-attachment stuff is that that is just who they have the most direct influence over and not like, the actual broader command level effects?
floral herald
But there’s also lord-commissar (general staff level), commissar-captain (not a dual command, rare), commissar-general (dual command equivalent to lord-commissar I think), commissar cadet, junior commissar (company level I think), and probably some others
Oh there’s colonel-commissar as a dual command ofc
thin ibex
i think often times also in-situ when your commisar offs your CO, youre likely to follow his commands. Unless you're a high initiative regiment and you off him back for doing that
tired cairn
Yeah, that's a hard collective action problem. Espeically since you'll get in quite a lot of trouble if people figure it out
thin ibex
a lot of regiments will likely be conditioned to simply obey a commissars authority despite the official hierarchal differences
tired cairn
There are probably more, but I think Catchechan are the only ones with the reputation for fragging commissars?
thin ibex
catachans on the other hand, know exactly how to hide or dispose of a body and apparently will close ranks as far as divulging any info regarding
tired cairn
Do they also have the reputation for fragging officiers? Or is that a weird divergence from their Vietnam theme?
thin ibex
I dont remember them fragging their own officers, they like their officers because their officers tend to lead from the front
It's outside influence they resent
unearned authority
charred bridge
A commissar treats Catachan with respectful resentment because they can't threaten the warriors really and basically and if a Catachan warrior doesn't want to follow dumb orders they will not
They try not to engage with each other
thin ibex
they'll charge into certain death for a catachan commander who's going in with them, but if a commissar tells them to because they are a commissar? That commissar might find themselves with a sudden case of hole in brain
charred bridge
Earning a Catachan's warrior respect as a commissar is a high bar
thin ibex
as a note, i think the subtext is that catachan disrespect for those they don't percieve as deserving of their position can go up the chain
I'm pretty sure catachans might even off an inquisitor if they can get away with it and they aren't really cognizant of the consequences of doing so. Savvy Catachans wont without plausible deniability because it brings more scrutiny
but a young catachan full of piss and vinegar might, on the wrong day
pulsar cairn
But there’s also lord-commissar (general staff level), commissar-captain (not a ...
Wait....so commissars have different ranks? Do ya happen to know what cain's commissar rank is?
floral herald
He’s just a commissar
runic swallow
It’s also one of those things where like with so many things in 40k, it’s wildly inconsistent
upper canopy
Commissars do not really have official ranks outside of like
Cadet
Commissar
Commissar Lord
everything else is usually informal
misty violet
Note that 40k commissars only even vaguely work like commissars in real life
hard whale
canonically Cain refused the "Lord" title
charred bridge
It’s also one of those things where like with so many things in 40k, it’s wildly...
The only consistent thing about 40k is it's inconsistent
Especially if you're a fan of Tau
finite compass
Wait....so commissars have different ranks? Do ya happen to know what cain's com...
Gaunt is a Colonel-Commissar
But that' specifically because he has a dual actual military rank
Because he took command of the Tanith 1st after their entire command staff got killed
Though Corbec ||and later Rawne|| is the actual commanding officer of the Tanith 1st
finite compass
Note that 40k commissars only even vaguely work like commissars in real life
40k Commissars act like the cold war pop culture idea of a Soviet Commissar
Rather than the mostly boring 'basically a secular chaplain' reality
runic swallow
Well, it kinda depends when you were talking
Since their role changed several times
It wasn’t ever exactly like in 40k, but they had differing levels of influence and roles over time
finite compass
Was thinking WWII. In the sense that they were basically there to listen to the concerns of the soldiers and provide ideological education and guidance
They dropped them being considered commanders in 1942
runic swallow
Well, again even during WWII their role shifted over time
finite compass
Mostly because the Commissars lacked the military training the actual officers did, and would frequently do stupid shit
But yeah it shifted
runic swallow
That’s kinda the problem yeah, where the guy would try to override your orders for ideological reasons
floral herald
The Soviets also called a few kinds of positions commissars
finite compass
Specifically this is a Political Commissar
And not the People's Commissars, who were basically just government officials
Which they used specifically because they thought the term Minister sounded too Tzarist
pulsar cairn
did irl commissars also have drip?
finite compass
They had standard Soviet officer drip
pulsar cairn
finite compass
pulsar cairn
Looks good 
pulsar cairn
Much better drip
floral herald
Which they used specifically because they thought the term Minister sounded too ...
I love these revolutionary tics
Like the U.S. not using Admirals for a while
finite compass
Or the whole "Officers are a Bourgeois concept, we should have the soldiers elect their leaders directly"
Almost immediately followed by "No, on second thought, let's not do that."
wintry mist
not necessarily like that
soldiers elected their leaders because in theory no one should be in a position to even hand out leadership roles
(also it worked pretty well aiui)
finite compass
I was under the impression it was done away with because, ironically, it made the chain of command difficult to handle
wintry mist
tactically it worked really well but yeah it became a bit of a mess
tired cairn
Vote in their leader?
finite compass
Yes
tired cairn
Catachans canonically do this
How far up the chain of command does this go?
past sphinx
Catachans canonically do this
Well they do all wear red bandanas
past sphinx
one day there will be a true GRC detachment
tired cairn
Hmm, is the grot life worse or better than a typical Imperial life?
pulsar cairn
imagine if this lad goes to a hive city and get the ummies on his side
floral herald
Hmm, is the grot life worse or better than a typical Imperial life?
I think it’s broadly kind of comparable but grots usually live much less long
pulsar cairn
Hmm, is the grot life worse or better than a typical Imperial life?
thats a hard question, but i think worse?
tired cairn
imagine if this lad goes to a hive city and get the ummies on his side <a:wixels...
Galactic Communism
paper bluff
Colonel-commisar gaunt is a special case for Tanith because there is no leader to be recruited from Tanith at the moment
paper bluff
thats a hard question, but i think worse?
Depends if you're on gorkamorka
pulsar cairn
what happens in gorkamorka?
quaint compass
Driving
Shooting
Ramming
Crashing
Waaagh!!
west zealot
There is only one true champion of the Proletariat in the 40k universe
Seize the means of destruction!
jaunty dawn
This is really interesting
Oh maximal profiles is also new for heresy plasma
But yeah like without context “plasma artillery” sounds like a nightmare of power creep
But I feel theyve made it work in a kinda interesting way? Still high strength, but coupled with hh2e’s change to plasma only being ap2 on good wound rolls, this then makes the quality of wound roll required higher
Also seems like the gets hot is more potent
Probably still very good tbf
Oh okay so just general plasma nerf
So the bombard is -1 strength and +1 overload
tired cairn
What does breaching do?
past sphinx
it kills terminators
jaunty dawn
Ap 2 if wound roll meets the target
tired cairn
Wait, lower AP is better in this rule set right?
jaunty dawn
Previously plasma was ap2 all the time, and more recently always breaching 4+ and gets hot
Oh, yup
Ap 4 means stormtroopers and lighter get no save, power armour and heavier gets its full save
Ap 2 means nothing gets an armour save
tired cairn
I remember when genestealers basically got that rule in 40k
jaunty dawn
Yup! So breaching is actually like
Nerfed rending
Because rending also has effects against vehicles, which breaching loses
Rending also always wounds, which breaching does not
tired cairn
I guess genestealers get that in the form of dev wounds still. But they need the broodlord
tired cairn
I feel like they used to be better into power armor. But my view might be skewed by the most common power armor my army faces being custodes which is a very different situation
jaunty dawn
They were pretty horrifying when you stacked buffs yeah
In 8th
I dont remember how good they were in 9th
past sphinx
do traitor guardsmen really have a place in csm?
past sphinx
hmm true but 10 points for a special weapon and no sticky feels like a greasy side grade
and granted, a power weapon
floral herald
You do get 3 special weapons at least
Albeit it's kind of a plasma a 2 who cares in bighammer
rocky shale
do traitor guardsmen really have a place in csm?
Somethings gotta be at the bottom of tier list videos
sour sequoia
i dont think in all my years ive encountered genestealers
I can fix this for you
Go my 30 bodies of infiltrating advance and charge
They’re pretty straightforward tbh, in both GSC and Tyranids their main thing is being up and in there turn 1 regardless of sitrep, they’re just that fast. Only suuuuper scary with broodlords or patriarchs attached but I get mileage out of them every game
finite compass
what happens in gorkamorka?
DIGGANOBZ
pulsar cairn
pastel rampart
They’re pretty straightforward tbh, in both GSC and Tyranids their main thing is...
They used to be very scary in 3rd thanks to how Rending worked.
Roll a 6 to hit? That auto-wounds and ignores armor saves. Against vehicles it was now 6+str(4)+1d6, so they'd just blender everything.
In 4th this got changed from 6 to hit to 6 to wound, which reduced their damage output but still made them threatening. In 5th the armor pen was reduced to...1d3.
bold halo
4th edition was still heinous and like, edition defining
assault cannons everywhere, the harlequin reign of terror, good times
pastel rampart
Yeah, it's telling that even with that minor nerf it was everywhere
Daemonettes were similarly terrifying in 3rd and early 4th, but the Daemon codex turned them from S4 to S3 so they were less useful as a result.
sour sequoia
Oh gotcha, they used to be crit mortals
I started with 5th so that’s a little before my time, good to know lol
humble plover
only the gun servitors
the two leaders are 9 wounds and the rest of the team are 8
but they are both quite weird
humble plover
yeah
the gun servitors are also on larger bases than the rest
they and the leaders are on 32, the rest are on 25
oh huh, I just realized thats probably because those are the stats of the inquisitorial agents gun servitor
floral herald
Oh huh yeah probably
jaunty dawn
I introduced myself to a cool girl today at the clurb (LGS) and Im gonna try and play kill team with her
humble plover
hell yeah!
jaunty dawn
Betraying my infinity brethren
But kill team is cool and making friends is cool
She had a cool world eater army
humble plover
I'm so hyped
floral herald
Every Ravener activation is just like crazy shit happening but you have to play like an evasive weirdo cause there's no such thing as trading
humble plover
I am very curious about how they'll play into other elites
floral herald
I think it'll depend on the elites
I'm pretty scared of them as Phobos but I'm a lot less worried with Legionaries
humble plover
yeah that makes sense
floral herald
Hey unrelated question, why is the wyches hekatrix blast pistol AP -4 and the Succubus' AP -3?
What's up with that
sonic hare
wyches shoot harder
tired cairn
Every Ravener activation is just like crazy shit happening but you have to play ...
Mountainside Tabletop's opinion/guess (from their review video I think?) is there is an 80% chance Raveners will be really strong and a 20% people will figure out a way to cheese them such that they never win on points
Their worry for the servitors is no one will think it is worth putting in the effort to make them work (as happened to ratlings)
I'll just post the video lol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhEpp1MUoDA
elfin orbit
How have people been feeling about the challenger things in 40k?
It feels like "Be behind in points, ahead in models" is just SO STRONG as a gameplan
Because if you're behind enough in points you can get such huge benefits and it doesn't care about if your opponent is possibly going to get tabled becasue of it
mental birch
Because if you're behind enough in points you can get such huge benefits and it ...
Be behind on points by 1
Is my plan
Plan out my scoring to v3 just behind
pastel rampart
unreal cosmos
past sphinx
as interested as i am in 30k
boy i aint interested in this box
i do wanna see the legends rules for 40k tho
thin ibex
Because if you're behind enough in points you can get such huge benefits and it ...
Iirc you have to be like 6 points behind to get a challenger card, and if you're consistently behind by 6 points all game to keep getting challenger cards, you're probably going to lose
especially if youre intentionally not scoring well
tired cairn
Being behind by six for a few rounds and then slingshotting yourself forward could be a thing. It reminds me of Power Grid (though the catch-up mechanic in that game was probably much more warping in how bad being first early on is)
There isn't a good way to determine "behind in points but up in material" is the potential issue here
floral herald
A lot of the behind in points mechanics seem like a big deal and then barely matter so I’m withholding judgement
I think it may make people play a little more cautiously to avoid losing their striking power early
But equally 40K is kind of a kill-fest and killing important stuff early is still great
So idk how much it’ll impact game planning
floral herald
The war dogs are kinda like this too
tired cairn
It's particularly wild for GW
I think the War Machine people were the first company I am aware of to do it for miniatures? (With the reboot)
soft willow
They were the first big company to embrace it in recent memory
But there are indy games going back as far as the aughts that did magnetized mechs and stuff.
spice flicker
Well with the new points drops I guess in the mini-crusade I was planning for some friends someone could run IK and can bring any questoris besides the warden/crusader and a trio of helverin to start off with since were doing 750 point start. I like the lower costs of the knights but not the price we had to pay to get cheaper.
tired cairn
I didn't know if I wanted to call them "big" given their current state haha. But fair
deft crest
I just hope if they ever start another tau crisis suit mold they do this
jaunty dawn
forge world (and continuing into the citadel heresy range) have been quietly doing it the whole time
or not the whole time. a long time
so in this context whats new is the fact they're actually talkin abt it
tired cairn
Interesting
pastel rampart
I think the War Machine people were the first company I am aware of to do it for...
I wanna say they were starting to do that in late mk2/somewhere in mk3?
tired cairn
Oh, interesting. I thought it's when they nearly died and started doing 3D printing
pastel rampart
I remember them putting out those plastic kits some years ago that had pre-drilled magnet holes, before they went to 3D printing.
Probably during mk3, I only sorta followed along and played a bit in mk2.
soft willow
MK3 kits weren't pre set, but were easily magnetized.
They did it first with Warcaster: Neo Mechanicka
This discussion might be better in the indy thread though.
thin ibex
You know I know the stats are abstractions and are more important for mechanical balance than lore. But it still weirds me out that an Ork is as tough as a crisis suit
rocky shale
The war dogs are kinda like this too
All knights are super easy to magnetize, yeah.
They have 4 and 8mm holes in the joints exactly
thin ibex
Like theres a big difference in armour save
Very true, it's just that with the existence of Gravis, it sometimes feels like a crisis suit should be T6. Which the broadside is
But then again the crisis is also many times faster
upper bluff
Oh that's great, especially for a game like Horus Heresy that has so many war gear options
floral herald
All knights are super easy to magnetize, yeah.
That’s good to hear
A local FLGS is going out of business (boo) but I was able to score a cheap houndpack lance from them so I guess I’m playing chaos knights now
rocky shale
For the most part they also include enough extra arm joints to build all the weapon options
The ruinator upgrade sprue doesn't 😠
pastel rampart
https://www.ebay.com/itm/388596681955 For those who like random vehicles: 3 for $15, free shipping.
Bought from this guy before, decent quality for FDM. 40k-accurate scale.
rocky shale
A local FLGS is going out of business (boo) but I was able to score a cheap houn...
Nice
Just make sure you get some nice n52 magnets
Random Amazon magnets make disappointing arm joints especially for the big knights
floral herald
Ah that’s good to know
I already have a bunch of random Amazon magnets but they’re for like space marine wrists
pastel rampart
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CCX29DGC Personal experience, can say these are good. Admittedly they might be a bit too big for knight limbs but I've gotten other magnets from this store before.
https://www.themightybrush.com/article/how-to-magnetise-an-imperial-knight/ Ah, 6x1mm seems to be the size.
https://runebrush.pa-sy.com/2018/04/tutorial-magnetising-knight-armiger-weapons/ war dogs/armigers (same size, I think) seem to use the same size (though they use 6x1.5 which is...an odd size, certainly).
floral herald
I saw that tutorial thankfully 6x1.5 has become more common since it was made
paper bluff
Ah to there's improving on what they have with the Telemon. You can also see the "in universe" design similarities
I wonder if there will be conversation kits with the Saturnine dread to telemon
rocky shale
Yeah I use 8x2 for bigs and 6x1.5 for war dogs
You can also do 4mm instead for dogs
I just get mine off magnet baron
I always regret using the Amazon ones because the joints end up floppy
Magnetizing the top guns is a little harder but still pretty trivial
95% of the time you just run the indirect though
pastel rampart
runic swallow
Look, it’s worth a shot
elfin orbit
You know I know the stats are abstractions and are more important for mechanical...
If anything in lore they should be tougher than crisis suits maybe. Crisis suits are really big on not getting hit at ranged, which is just... Not really a stat that exists? I tend to wish "Dodge" was a stat but it usually gets represented by Stealth or an invuln save, neither of which feel quite right to me
mental birch
If anything in lore they should be tougher than crisis suits maybe. Crisis suit...
Give us back free jump shoot jump on suits
sour sequoia
Yeah thats how they used to do it, crisis suits were JSJ big infantry
elfin orbit
I mean that was very lore accurate but also one of the most frustrating things in the game do
So*
sour sequoia
It’s a tactical challenge and it turns out loads of stuff still does it so it’s a little strange they don’t - it was their signature tbh
sour sequoia
Anything in necrons with a chronomancer, GSC bikes, lots and lots of marines
elfin orbit
On the other hand, I really really miss my 120+ model Tyranid lists being kinda viable
Lmao
sour sequoia
Gargoyles shoot and scoot lmao
elfin orbit
Tyranids have been super about the monsters for a few editions now
It makes me sad as someone who got into them for Genestealers and hordes
tired cairn
For magnets I liked Magnet Baron. But for, uh, geopolitical reasons (I am Canadian and they are in the US) I will not be buying from them for a bit
runic swallow
Honestly harbor freight has at least some generic magnets to choose from at good prices
tired cairn
It'd be nice if they didn't make the horde detachment ridiculous effort wise
runic swallow
It’s worth poking your head in to look
tired cairn
Gargoyels were popular for a bit (because Jump Infantry is really good and 6" move after shooting potentially let's you snipe objective off a deepstrike). But I think Tyranid lone op is so cheap people just take a bunch of those instead
upper bluff
Honestly harbor freight has at least some generic magnets to choose from at good...
I can fully endorse Harbor Freight magnets. I've been using them to place magnets on the bottom of my minis for storage and they are like $3.99 for 10 it's awesome
They're thin enough to fit under just about any base in 40k too
elfin orbit
Gargoyels were popular for a bit (because Jump Infantry is really good and 6" mo...
The Norn units were just nuts cost efficient for a while. New model syndrome.
tired cairn
People were pretty cool on them initially iirc?
I think there are some triple-norn lists, but they aren't typical
runic swallow
They're thin enough to fit under just about any base in 40k too
Yeah that’s what I used em for
upper bluff
Being able to get magnets for my entire army for like $30 is great
runic swallow
Yeah it’s useful to look at places outside of hobby stores/websites for supplies sometimes, since you can get some good deals
Especially since hobby stuff often gets marked up
rocky shale
Yeah K&J magnetics is also good for n52 magnets
But you have to order a lot for the shipping to not be a pain
past sphinx
the fan animation thing is so very strange
wouldnt it fall under the same shit as like fanfiction?
or is this one of those things where its technically bullshit but aint nobody got GW lawyer money to bring it to court over funny sfm clips
floral herald
wouldnt it fall under the same shit as like fanfiction?
It does - fanfiction and fanart gets taken down frequently
I’ve heard that for GW in particular there’s some quirks to European copyright law which means they have a stronger duty to defend, or they’re just protective of it
I’ve never been able to really verify the former
tired cairn
Fan fiction and fan art isn't generally fair use. Companies often tolerate it because it can be useful to do so, but they don't have to
charred bridge
Or cause its not worth their time and they only have so much legal obligation to do so to defend their IP
sour sequoia
AIUI visual stuff is easier to sue for on IP grounds than written stuff - if I had to put forward a sane version of this, companies usually need to be fairly proactive on all fanworks to have any ground to stand on when people put forth bigoted slop like flashgitz or the chuddy AI crap
tired cairn
I think typically (or maybe at least US + Canada) there is no obligation to defend copyright (unlike Trademarks)
charred bridge
Companies at least in the US are required to defend their IP but how much they have to do so varies a lot based on sized, many just put performative minimal effort
Copyright is automatic
sour sequoia
it doesn't really shock me they're tamping down again on it after recovering the good will from the days of 6th/7th trying to copyright 'Space Marine' / 'Imperial Guard' and getting the pandemic era explosion in popularity
charred bridge
Trademarks, and other registered IPs are not
tired cairn
They can choose to not defend copyright without losing it though. Unlike a trademark
I didn't think copyright was use it or lose it
(trade secrets being the uh, secret third thing have their own requirements)
tired cairn
I’ve heard that for GW in particular there’s some quirks to European copyright l...
Man. That's such an annoying claim to disprove if it's wrong
floral herald
Man. That's such an annoying claim to disprove if it's wrong
It’s supposedly German and probably wrong
This is a real old thing I haven’t heard in a while about an old fan film
tired cairn
reproductions made for private and non-commercial use if there is compensation for rightholders;
These are some weird limitations on copyright in the EU. I guess it's that the copyright owner can't stop you if you give them money?
charred bridge
Its a big old mess for better or worse in the US at least, if you want to make money in US they gotta abide. Required to do minimum, safe to do slightly more to prevent losing it, and free to go wild on defending it if you want.
Xerox, Velcro, and Kleenex lost theirs and every time it happens to a big company every big company locks down
sour sequoia
honestly the janovich video kinda reeks of chudbait at 10 minutes in - "GW is waging war on the REAL Fans by censoring the Daemonculaba in favor of their shiny new Amazon show"
past sphinx
oh hes a big ol chud
dense idol
in lighter news: today i have painted nine (9) points worth of models
this is significantly more than the zero (0) i achieve on most days, so i consider this a rousing success
floral herald
honestly the janovich video kinda reeks of chudbait at 10 minutes in - "GW is wa...
I admit I didn’t make it 10 minutes haha
past sphinx
you can tell a chud channel if their vraks series is more than 4 parts
and hes up to like 18?
main pagoda
honestly the janovich video kinda reeks of chudbait at 10 minutes in - "GW is wa...
I hate this POV of people who still cling to the idea GW is not mainstream now. Like 40k is basically just common knowledge and GW is the largest company of its kind in the world
or rather GW is new to the main stream
sour sequoia
Once again winning by refusing to acknowledge Imperium lore, "oh [Channel] made another video about The Last Stand of The Blood Fucks Chapter, the Emperor's most fearless and loyal soldiers?"
greatly distinguished from their brethren the Fuck Bloods by their worship of Big E as an actual God and not merely The Guy
dense idol
Once again winning by refusing to acknowledge Imperium lore, "oh [Channel] made ...
true and real
charred bridge
or rather GW is new to the main stream
Yea they mainstream enough if you show anyone a ultramarine they'd probaby say they've seen something like it before
dense idol
"what the FUCK are the vermin races yapping about now"
main pagoda
might be a uk focussed POV here but nearly every UK town has a GW store or an LGS
sour sequoia
Power Armor in the astartes vein has become essentially omnipresent in scifi
Fallout is pretty shameless about it
chainswords. who doesn't love a fucking chainsword
main pagoda
you can't get more mainstream than being on the highstreet
charred bridge
Well id say pokemon or fortnight is higher on the mainstream ladder
40k isnt really a small niche anymore though, one good live action away from being a vaguely household name like fallout after theirs dropped
sour sequoia
outside of the UK its definitely a subculture of its own still
but like, the actual live-under-a-rock-montana-cavemen I work with on the airport ramp hear "I do this super nerdy thing its called warhammer we paint a buncha toy soldiers and play fucked up chess" and they're 'oh shit like space marine?' or 'oh shit my cousin's really into that with the little aliens right?'
the last 3-4 years have been very different to before where it was borderline alien
charred bridge
My guess for that is there were popular 40k games that dropped last few years
main pagoda
the last 3-4 years have been very different to before where it was borderline al...
the covid boom was insane
but yeah dawn of war, vermintide, darktide and spacemarine 1 and 2 to name a few brought it into the main "gamer space"
charred bridge
It was not a good time overall, but the hobby game scene boomed
Really anything you can do just online
tired cairn
I don't think 40k is quite mainstream (my Superintendent thought my friends were playing D&D instead lol). But it's definitely pretty well known in the nerdier circles
finite compass
I will say though that it was an eye-opening moment
Putting my toe in the water with other games and realizing like
"I really dont' want to spend hundreds of dollars on an army for a game I won't- Wait. What do you mean it's forty?"
And realizing that GW pricing is just that.
GW pricing
And not like an industry standard
charred bridge
Gundam has neat wargame with neat minis
main pagoda
GW pricing is due to alot of stuff, but overall I will say the gap between GW and most other companies in terms of quality and production is massive
charred bridge
I love 40k games, well mostly rogue trader and darktide but the actual wargame is ridiculous and thats coming from a former MTG player, I used to have a side business making proxies for 40k minis and was like no way people are paying this much for 3d printed plastic even considering upkeep and my time
tired cairn
They call pretty reliably sell more than they can produce so I'm not surprised the stuff they sell is so expensive
pastel rampart
charred bridge
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/408452338622267401/1384998262175695099/50...
Ultramarines are like, have youve considered having more named characters
Thats how you get plot armor
pine matrix
Once again winning by refusing to acknowledge Imperium lore, "oh [Channel] made ...
Mediating on a mountain thinking about Eldar lore only
thin ibex
Necron Lore be looking at Eldar lore and going "Nah man I was actually there, it wasn't like that"
rocky shale
Working with GW plastic is substantially more pleasant than working with 3d printed parts IMO. Yeah it's expensive but there is definitely a quality difference
pine matrix
Necron Lore be looking at Eldar lore and going "Nah man I was actually there, it...
Are there any books dedicated to Eldar Vs Necrons? There's but Vs Exodites in Infinite and Divine
thin ibex
not that i know of
charred bridge
I assume Necrons would lose against peak Eldar, considering the Aeldari empire was one of the ones dominating the war in heaven and drove silent king to be like, aight we aint doing well we napping until they're all dead.
And they slept before Eldar reached their peak and made the whoopsie of slaanesh
Unless you mean current 40k, I'd imagine they have no reason to interact, Eldar stay close to craft worlds and Necrons are almost entirely planetside
floral herald
Well, they don’t naturally
The eldar go out of their way to destroy tomb worlds and the antipathy is often matched by the necrons aiui
empty siren
Recently learned a little bit about Nighthaunt
Bro, Nagash is fucking petty and hilarious
"Oh you're healers? You keep your kindness and generosity. But your body is literally forced to kill and hurt people, because fuck you for trying to deny me those souls."
pine matrix
The eldar go out of their way to destroy tomb worlds and the antipathy is often ...
Were the necrons stoked about the Eye of Terror initially? Like "haha, our ancient enemies blew up their empire"
empty siren
"Your hands that were used to heal, are now scythes."
pine matrix
Nagash is nothing if not extremely petty
empty siren
He's so fucking petty. Also his ability to just be like, "Pick a hand. Wrong choice. Obliterates your hero."
Once per turn. End of any turn. You literally just look at your opponent's guy who's in combat with him, every combat phase and have a 50/50 chance to fucking destroy them
pine matrix
You know what, for the literal god of death, that makes sense
empty siren
Oh you destroyed a unit? No you didn't. They're back. Miscast a spell? Fuck you I'm gonna just keep doing it, wizard (9).
THINK MORTAL THINK! YOU THINK YOU CAN BEAT ME? I'M THE LORD OF DEATH YOU FOOL. I HAVE SOMEONE UNDER ME WHO EXPERIENCES ALL THE GRIEF IN THE WORLD AND I DID IT FOR FUN
I love him. He has a dude whose brothers are literally at all times, telling the story of ALL his failures and all that man can do is just listen
thin ibex
I mean, Peak Necrons kind of includes the Ctan
So Peak Necron vs Peak Aeldari squarely puts the Necrons on top; they won the war, then turned on their gods and shattered them. In the aftermath they werent strong enough to finish the big war but apparently neither were the aeldari; so the necron went to sleep while the aeldari flourished largely unapposed
side note, with how glazed the past is and the limits of the old races tech is; its a wonder there are any planets or stars left at all
pastel rampart
The Necron were getting their shit pushed in by all the psychically-attuned races the Old Ones were putting out because they really had no answer to that. It's just that all that activity in the warp brought the Enslavers over.
thin ibex
40k lore would have you believe that the war in heaven was tantamount to, like, gurren lagann esque throwing galaxies as shurikens as you duke things out on the galactic plain with your metaphorically empowered fists.
charred bridge
The eldar go out of their way to destroy tomb worlds and the antipathy is often ...
Wasnt there an instance of Eldar finding the Imperium colony failing to defend themselves from an awoken tomb world and Eldar were just swooped in to them take out the tomb and leave
I havent read many of the 40k books
They seem to help out if only to take out vulnerable mostly preoccupied with another faction
thin ibex
theres a lot of like... situations where depending on who's dex its in or from what perspective something is written in, one faction squashes another without breaking a sweat
sour sequoia
Codexes are there to glaze your little dudes
charred bridge
40k lore would have you believe that the war in heaven was tantamount to, like, ...
I wonder if like 21st century humans noticed, I dont imagine the war in heaven was fought in secret with regards to conserving natural stellar formations. You'd think astronomers would see like, yea there's just way too many planets in this system for no reason like they were put there or this system seems to have had a huge debris field but it seemed to be moved elsewhere
Astronomers even now are very observant, they see a little light blip and look at charts of EM spectrum and can find composition of planets upper atmoshpere at least.
tired cairn
It was sixty million years before the setting present. That's well before humanity
But also long enough that events would be well passed in terms of seeing it change due to light speed (assuming it was all in this galaxy, which I think is the case?)
charred bridge
60 million seems pretty short in a cosmic scale with universe being like 14 billion
tired cairn
Does 40k commit that hard to earth history in setting being basically the same as real life (up until it is known of course)?
charred bridge
No, I think past industrial era they say its lost to history
tired cairn
Sure, but the Galaxy is "only" 105k ly in diameter
So if you weren't around the war in heaven +/- 100k years, you won't notice anything changing
charred bridge
You'd see the results of it
tired cairn
(but it's possible you notice something weird about the makeup of the galaxy)
Impossible to say how obvious it would be "aliens!" versus "huh, why does the milky way have so many exploded stars. Weird" though
west zealot
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/408452338622267401/1384875969147441252/FB...
Okay, that's very good
charred bridge
Impossible to say how obvious it would be "aliens!" versus "huh, why does the mi...
Moreso like 40k astronomers just being at complete losses looking into the sky
tired cairn
Wait, is all of the available habitable planets because if the old ones and not the nature of the 40k universe?
charred bridge
I imagine many werent after war in heaven. Golden age humanity had very good terraforming abilities before warp was cut off, even after dark age of technology and using what they do now they can terraform a planet after like a few thousand years
Imperium isnt good at it, but they can after a ton of bodies
west zealot
honestly the janovich video kinda reeks of chudbait at 10 minutes in - "GW is wa...
Also gotta be honest, stuff like the demomcubla is often just a writer going look how sick and twisted I can be, rather than actually adding anything.
charred bridge
Its stupid expensive for imperium nowadays so why not like just put the resources of terraforming in a planet to adding a a ton of guardsman turning colonies into forge worlds, Never forget the guardsman planet from that game
The game that had the planet that supposedly had septlillions of guardsman or some number that was literally more than the atoms in our galaxy and surrounding ones.
Also it had no necrons, low ork prescence.
west zealot
The rule of 40k lore is never do the math, because it'll make you cry
Or otherwise turn out nonsensical
charred bridge
When cadia gave out before the guardsmen did, they could replaced cadia with p bigger planet made entirely of guardsmen
past sphinx
sickass fan game that got absolutely flattened
charred bridge
Oh RIP, I thought it was an official game that did poorly
west zealot
"The Dark Eldar are playing chess while the Orks are playing chicken."
This is an amazing summary of Da Big Dakka
Which I once again urge you all to read/listen to
upper bluff
There is a new branch of chapter master that's in dev right now
I've played it, it's..... Rough around the edges?
Like there are a lot of bugs and the game is open source to just about anyone so instead of fixing the "you can never regain control of this planet because everyone died so instead it will always say tyranid controlled bug" they're just adding volkite and adding new bugs
tired cairn
One of these are much more fun to do 😛
upper bluff
Yeah I completely agree but I'm not entirely sure combat works well enough to justify it
On a 20 hour save I only lost tanks and never a single space marine. Ok that's not true I lost 2 in a 4v30000 battle against Orks because a bug caused my ship to overflow with Marines and dump the excess on a planet. The 2 survivors were scouts and they never died even after like 20 turns of battle
I did promote those scouts in the end though. They retook that plenty by themselves
I'll probably play the latest dev build tonight just to see stuff though
charred bridge
Are there ork genestealers
upper bluff
No lol
One of the big changes is that population had been abstracted to just tiers. So there won't be a guard planet. Just a "massive" amount of guardsmen
charred bridge
If there arent there should be so what happens if one hive fleet tried it but it was like playing chess with a pigeon and later iterations were too good at being orks literally became orks when a waaagh started
Or a a painboy took the tyranid part out and only ork was left
pastel rampart
Are there ork genestealers
Orks are not an ideal species for Genestealer infiltration, although sometimes Genestealers will infect Orks if no better host species is available. Generally Genestealer-Ork groups are only sucessful when a community of Feral Orks is infected, as more "civilised" Orks are usually able to instinctively detect the presense of alien contamination and will doubtless wipe out the infected Orks
charred bridge
Thats funnt
I think even if a warboss learned about genestealers, they'd encourage it so they tyranids come over faster to fight them
Or that one tyranid loving clan finds a way to hijack the genestealer bit and keeps annoying a hive fleet by using the psychic signal to bring more to kill
pastel rampart
https://nurgle.stelio.net/Flies and Dice/Ork Genestealer Hybrids.pdf It should be noted that they never had official miniatures but GW did encourage people to kitbash their own
They even had a chart!
charred bridge
Damn genestealer orks are like the only orks to have an existential crisis
pastel rampart
They're a fun if obscure piece of ancient lore that hasn't really cropped up in decades but technically hasn't been removed from lore.
charred bridge
Not ork enough to pass off as an ork, not able to prepare the tribe for a fleet with another species, just existing on the fringes of ork space
pastel rampart
sour sequoia
The mesoamerican codex lookin banner of a 4 armed ork goes hard
pastel rampart
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2004599158/alien-orc-craboids/ Oh, someone even did some not-hybrids of their own
west zealot
Orkstealers are one of those "they exist, but" - just the but is capitalized and underlined multiple times
floral herald
Does 40k commit that hard to earth history in setting being basically the same a...
Insofar as 40k commits hard to anything, yes
west zealot
Similar situation to Eldar Genestealers (which have happened in the lore as an attempt to dodge slaneesh) - it takes incredibly extreme circumstances for it to happen.
The size of the galaxy means it's happened, but that is far from common
floral herald
Insofar as 40k commits hard to anything, yes
The most contemporary references are some of the space rovers and I think something related to the Kennedy assassination
pastel rampart
Similar situation to Eldar Genestealers (which have happened in the lore as an a...
It's in the same way that "khorne boyz" was a thing, still technically exists, but you don't really see them anymore.
west zealot
Generally the answer in 40k is you should go off and have fun.
If your wanna have a whacky genestealer tainted Ork broodboyz who are big fans of The Killy Red Guy... Yeah, that's perfectly cromulent in the canon
It is a gigantic fucking galaxy
tall depot
http://www.theallguardsmenparty.com/trial.html
the all guardsmen party finally ended
i swear it took like a decade
plucky token
oh, that's crazy. i thought it had ended years ago, lmfao
charred bridge
Ive been reading about Cawl, Emps was able to see the future and talk to Cawl though Sedayne knowing they'd soul merge but couldnt see he was a bad dad.
west zealot
Emps: actually just really bad at this shit
past sphinx
He did fuck up so bad he nearly became a 5th chaos gos
charred bridge
Well he was actually doing extremely well overall for humanity, he just really messed up bad with the Primarchs. Everything both moral and amoral was going to plan mostly
More I read about emps he's like Savathun from Destiny except with more ego. He planned for every failure and its like "it could have been worse but emps planned for this" for everything except if Horus didnt look up to him
Its like a magnificent and almost funny levels of comedy of errors.
Emps will literally plan for every human doomsday event than go to therapy
plucky token
the god of toxic masculinity...
charred bridge
Patriarchy Chaos God
west zealot
Well he was actually doing extremely well overall for humanity, he just really m...
I would argue instead he was doing well for his vision of humanity, which was still pretty bleak and evil.
west zealot
Thats basically what I said
It's not the takeaway that I got from you comment, or how I interpreted your statement at all, that's all
charred bridge
How did you interpret it
finite compass
I think the irony is that the Heresy could have been avoided if Emps were more human
He literally lost his ability to relate to humanity in his drive to preserve humanity
desert jay
Emps will literally plan for every human doomsday event than go to therapy
Or get therapy for his kids
charred bridge
He was the reason they needed therapy so
plucky token
the last of the therapists died in the Dark Age of Technology, and their art is now lost to time...
charred bridge
Angron already needed therapy, emps did worse than his homeworld could ever do to him on first time meeting him.
Also the nails and surgery thing was funny to me, it's simply not possible to take out the nails we can't do that.
Anyways gulliman here's this godly artificer armor that's gone a bring you back
tired cairn
Resurrection is a common technology in the 40k universe, unlike nail removal
charred bridge
You got a point
plucky token
they haven't found the STC for that yet
charred bridge
Cawl is like, this new thing that happen to solve this recent issue... I found it
You wouldnt know this STC it was found in another town
plucky token
an STC? in this time of day? localized entirely within your kitchen?
charred bridge
Yes
plucky token
may i see it?
charred bridge
... No
plucky token
mental birch
My interpretation of emps is that he's
a iron age warlord who just got a bigger stick
runic swallow
Incorrect, in only that he was flint or bronze
mental birch
hahaha
charred bridge
Well he's also an incredibly strong psychic presence
Unless iron age just had immortality he was kind of unique
mental birch
I mean more in mindset
tired cairn
Oh huh, they updated the Imperial Knights index
tired cairn
They had a weird shared index thing iirc
jaunty dawn
Fair
tired cairn
But apparently the Imperial Knight's codex was delayed for unspecified reasons
A Knight Castellan being 30 points more than a Crusader seems weird:
tired cairn
That would be surprising since the codex isn't out. I expect it relative to the last points list
(I expect the Chaos knights ones to be relative to the codex though)
rocky shale
Those points are with the IK also getting the toughness drop
tired cairn
Yes, though they also got more wounds to compensate
rocky shale
ye
desert jay
Oh is IK getting the stat changes before the codex hits? Spicy
rocky shale
armiger melta also lost 6" range
tired cairn
They got the main stat line changed, but (most) weapon profiles didn't change AIUI
tired cairn
Also, didn't shield breaker missiles have limited at some point? Or did I hallucinate that
jaunty dawn
I mean its probably fine I just like warglaives
Yeah
But they were replaced by a one attack missile launcher
Like how the skyray works
You used to buy them two at a time iirc
jaunty dawn
But now each two is just a weapon
tired cairn
This seems about the same for IK?
jaunty dawn
Tbf I dont think many things survive to shoot more than two turns in current 40k lol
Once they’re visible
rocky shale
Oh, CK'
rocky shale
CK lost anti-, and went to 3+ accuracy and 12" range for d3 shots
jaunty dawn
D3 shots is good
tired cairn
d3 shots for the harpoon seems like sacrilege though lol
rocky shale
losing anti is brutal for a dev wounds weapon
its much easier to just whiff into a 4++ vehicle or something
tired cairn
Custodes stay winning I guess lol