Warhammer and Such

[modest meadow]

You can't have 40k Without the karking daemons!

[tardy vault]

Unfortunately, their CEO is stoking the issues. Departments compete on internal metrics and the better you do the better your bonus and raises are.

[floral herald]

Daemons didn’t even exist as an army when I started playing lol chill

[tardy vault]

So, if someone buys a models for, say, Horus Heresy and then uses them in 40k there's a big fight over who's metrics those models should go to.

[modest meadow]

And this is why I dont trust GW worth a shit.

[modest meadow]

There's no guarantee that they won't remove the rest of the demon model range.

Remember:
Firstborn are no longer Legal in Official Matches.

[tired cairn]

The no sharing models between game lines thing is such a bizarre choice

[modest meadow]

And those have been around since edition ONE.
So no, anything and everything COULD get cut should they be struck with the lunacy

[rocky shale]

Tactical marines exist and aren't in legends, Skee

Chill

[floral herald]

?????

I could also do with less random bold text

[rocky shale]

That's just actually untrue

[tired cairn]

You'd think a bit of overlap would encourage people to buy more stuff, not less

[floral herald]

I agree

The “Ynnari Trick” worked pretty well I think

[modest meadow]

They originally tried to, it was originally announced that Firstborn would be relegated to legends. just because they walked it back doesn't mean it didn't happen.https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/EfUK5LuY/space-marine-range-update-bikes-land-speeders-and-more-are-soon-zooming-off-into-the-sunset/

[tardy vault]

Oh, it's absolutely dumb, but for some reason GW has decided to adopt a management style from the 90s that the rest of the world ditched for a reason.

[modest meadow]

That's alot of units that would be removed, even if tacticals and devastators did get to stay, it's a substantial trim

[floral herald]

I’d give that article a read haha

[modest meadow]

Namely because encouraging competitiveness tends to lead to alot of internal sabotage in the form of ridiculous spats.

[tired cairn]

"GW trimmed some old kits" and "firstborn are no longer tournament legal" aren't even close to the same thing

[rocky shale]

Yeah this article still talks about non-legends firstborn and then talks about how you can proxy old models with newer data sheets for the ones that did go to legends

[tired cairn]

I do expect all the Firstborn datasheets to eventually be legends and kits discontinued though

[thin ibex]

As a side note, i think trimming down ranges is actually like a really good idea?

[tired cairn]

I don't know how long that is going to take lol

[thin ibex]

especially when it comes to space marines

[tired cairn]

It is pretty hilarious how much larger the space marine stack of datasheet cards is compared to every other faction though

[modest meadow]

stares at the bloat of Primaris roster is
But they walked it back

[jaunty dawn]

they didn't walk anything back

[thin ibex]

like i was as sad as many to see that not every dreadnaught option survived into this edition; but also we just didn't need every dreadnought option that existed.

[modest meadow]

No, they walked it back in the form of replacing the lost with new primaris

like the -strange- missile launcher desolators

It feels weird to remove firstborn units, only to then replace them

[jaunty dawn]

all the things in that article did get removed

[tired cairn]

That's not walking things back. That was always clearly going to be the plan

[jaunty dawn]

and that's just how replacing a range works haha

but tactical and devestators were never on the chopping block

[thin ibex]

replacing them with newer models that fit their current vision and use updated production molds/methods seems like... a pretty normal thing overall

[jaunty dawn]

they might eventually be, for sure

[thin ibex]

that they could probably do more of, but im not holding my breath for range refreshes

[modest meadow]

Also I personally feel you can't say firstborn are still legal if the only non legends ones is Tacs/Devastators and some vehicles is

its a case of rules lawyering personally

[thin ibex]

like my tau have been riding clean for years, partially because even our old shit looks good still

[jaunty dawn]

you can't take power swords on bikes anymore, it's true

[modest meadow]

Also I question why we need a Primaris missile launcher squad if we have devastators and tacticals who can bring lascannons or missile launchers

[jaunty dawn]

because the primaris range is built around infinite growth so they can have a major marine release every year cause it sells, basically

[floral herald]

Desolators are indirect fire guys

They’re more like an infantry Whirlwind

[modest meadow]

they be cringe tho

[jaunty dawn]

yup

[floral herald]

I actually like them

[modest meadow]

Like.. why couldn't they just do a cyclical launcher system....

[modest meadow]

https://tenor.com/ba53J.gif

[jaunty dawn]

design by commitee probably

[thin ibex]

i like the weird rocket boys

but i dont like that they're 200 points a squad

[modest meadow]

The mag-belt fed launcher induces seizures in me

[jaunty dawn]

but yeah desolators don't do the same thing as missile devs

[thin ibex]

I also don't like how they dont have the option to switch missile types

thats like the whole point of missile launchers

[tired cairn]

Eh. It's fully within the realm of dumb designs you see in 40k. The guns would probably look more in place on orks though

[thin ibex]

i want my mostly useless frag type and my kraks

apparently the superfrag was actually ok at saturation anti infantry?

[modest meadow]

It feels weird to name them desolators and not give them phosphex

[jaunty dawn]

not even admech have phosphex in 40k

[modest meadow]

I blame the mechanicus...

[thin ibex]

im a lover of two mode weapons, and that means that even I realize that one of my two types is going to be mostly shitty

[jaunty dawn]

just baby version

[modest meadow]

Also don't the admech have phosphor blasters or did those get canned in 10e?

[floral herald]

Has frag at all been good since the template days?

[thin ibex]

niche, but otherwise no

[jaunty dawn]

phosphor tech is an inferior imitation of phosphex

[thin ibex]

It's actually good against T3 factions, its just that marines make up the norm

[jaunty dawn]

mostly just makes pretty lights for marking targets

[thin ibex]

so like 4 missile launchers with blast into a squad of guardsmen will actually do work

[jaunty dawn]

instead of like shooting semi-sentient fire that eats people on purpose

[thin ibex]

but it doesn't do a lot to marines or power armor

sry not the phosphex, frag rockets

[floral herald]

Ah ok fair

[tired cairn]

GW kind of strangled the crazy horde lists too

[floral herald]

When I played orks frags were scary

[thin ibex]

like they actually do ok against... guard, gsc, aeldari, and some nids; but the main problem is that also, most factions have a lot of light AI fire just incidentally

[jaunty dawn]

but yeah even before everything got banished to heresy only you couldn't take phosphex on leviathan dreads or anything

[floral herald]

Good tbh

[jaunty dawn]

straight up doesn't exist in 40k

[floral herald]

As an old horde player

[bright dove]

Probably for the best tbh

[thin ibex]

Did they?

[modest meadow]

None of that 10k dice ball nonsense that was before

Iirc in 10e Guard squads can't reach the level of tarpit they used to, nor can orks

[tired cairn]

The squad refresh strat change hurt a bunch of them

[floral herald]

Yeah Phosphex is actually extinct

[thin ibex]

Tau kroot horde works ok, Ork green tide works, Nid unending swarm works

[tired cairn]

Particularly the tyranids one

[jaunty dawn]

there isn't a unit I can think of that's got more than 20 models is the thing

[thin ibex]

I think Guard mass infantry will work once hte dex is out

[floral herald]

The hordes of modernity are not the hordes of yore in terms of model count

[jaunty dawn]

like what consitutes horde in modern day is doing fine sure

[bright dove]

That's fine

[jaunty dawn]

but you can't take 50 guardsmen per troop slot

[modest meadow]

Nah fam, the guard horde is gonna go prolly

[thin ibex]

ok yeah fair thats true

[floral herald]

No 280 model green tides

[thin ibex]

they're still technically a horde 😛

Yeah not fielding 300 orks or guardsmen

I think even Necron warrior hordes works well in casuals

[floral herald]

Yeah there’s good horse lists and armies but the size of a “horde” in models has gone down a notable amount

[bright dove]

Horde armies of yore are annoying to play and play against

[tired cairn]

I think there were nid lists that were close to that before the nerf

[thin ibex]

Kroot horde list was one i did not at all see coming for my tau tbh

[floral herald]

Yeah I think one took a tourney and had a really funny name

[modest meadow]

to quote the Vex meme
"It's been 15 to 30 minutes already man F off!"

[floral herald]

Something like “my movement phase>your turn”

[tired cairn]

Though the point I was indirectly making is that it's a reason frag isn't as good

[modest meadow]

-average experience of a shooting/melee phase pre-horde nerf

[modest meadow]

that and the lack of templates so you can't really try and sweet spot for max damage anymore

for the best personally.

[thin ibex]

I think templates are cool as one thing, but yeah i think the streamline works well for play

especially cause play still takes hours

[tired cairn]

The nid horde detachment rule is such a ridiculous thing gameplay time wise to give it lol

[modest meadow]

yeap, and you have less time wasted on watching someone try to hit the sweet spot with their whirlwind or basilisk etc

[bright dove]

One of the only things I miss from the age of yore was being able to easily mix daemons into my CSM army

[thin ibex]

nid horde, is it still comp or just pretty decent?

[tired cairn]

I don't think it's comp anymore

[modest meadow]

Let's be honest though
No one save for THAT guy shed a tear when Summoning got Removed

I knew when I saw that bloody rule it was a TERRIBLE idea.

[thin ibex]

summoning was weird and niche and it also broke crusade open like a ripe melon

[modest meadow]

Lorewise cool

but gameplay?
God no

[thin ibex]

also it was like "you got extra models laying around, right?"

[modest meadow]

enjoy having that one douchebag you have to trek to kill so they dont keep trying to summon more freaking demons

[bright dove]

Is there a reason you're randomly bolding every few sentences?

[modest meadow]

Emphasis of emotion

It's called being stylistic.

And annoying depending on perspective too.

https://tenor.com/bqOQ6.gif

[thin ibex]

i know green tide and kroot horde both currently work decently for the same reason

the main detach rule helps the big blobs be real annoying to remove

which means they play the objective well

i do kinda miss being able to play dedicated ork shooty lists. It's still there in some ways, but its not the same

[bright dove]

Could you maybe tone it down some? It's awfully jarring and aggravating to read.

[modest meadow]

sure

[jaunty dawn]

8e+ summoning was basically just glorified deep strike

[modest meadow]

pretty much yeah

[thin ibex]

prolly best that old orky shooting wasnt around anymore tho i suppose

[jaunty dawn]

Though now we have stuff like gsc

[modest meadow]

for the best tbh, before that it was genuinely a way to roach up the numbers

"Ah. it's a 1k game? Excuse me while I try to inflate my army value"

[tired cairn]

The tactikal brigade is decent for this I think?

[modest meadow]

at best it was a weird and niche mechanic
At worst it promoted waffenmunchers trying to bring forth greater demons and skew the balance of power

I think 1d4chan had a segment on optimizing demon summoning

[jaunty dawn]

Even when you’re playing imperials cause clearly anyone is just chill with summoning demons in this setting xP

[modest meadow]

pretty sure it's still on 1d6

[modest meadow]

oh yeah that's right, didn't you use to be able to get summoning on imps then via an inquisitor addition with the malefic discipline?

[jaunty dawn]

Yup

[modest meadow]

lol, lmao even.

[jaunty dawn]

Cause universal disciplines

[bright dove]

I am now realizing you are probably not talking the Daemon Summoning I am thinking of. What edition of daemon Summoning are you referring to?

[modest meadow]

I have a feeling -and i have no proof mind- that might've been the final nail in the coffin of psychic disciplines xD

I think the 7th Ed-8th Ed

[bright dove]

Ok

[tired cairn]

Daemon summoning required you to set aside points in matched play

[modest meadow]

Before it got nerfed into "You must have spare points on hand equal to the cost of [Insert demon]" for matched play

[tired cairn]

(which made it very weird and niche)

[modest meadow]

and then just removed entirely

[thin ibex]

Oh I haven't messed much with them, they're like guard "orders" as an ork Detachment right?

[tired cairn]

I don't know about crusade

[bright dove]

Yeah, that's definitely not the Summoning I am thinking of

[thin ibex]

Ok time to go try a mostly shooty ork list then

[bright dove]

Because in the older editions I am thinking of, when daemons were just CSM units, Summoning was just how you got the daemons on your list on the field at all

So if you didn't have any icons out, those points were just dead

[thin ibex]

I just remember that when it was still around, you could effectively summon unlimited things in crusade, which kind of dates when I was playing more

Sort of an informal agreement that that was poor form

[jaunty dawn]

I think it was just 6th and 7th that it was like that in matched play

Maybe 8e indexhammer

[jaunty dawn]

But then it wasnt even the most ridiculous thing in those editions lol

[modest meadow]

7th edition Malefic summoning

And then it got briefly expanded in 8th Ed to even daemon princes I think
And then got nerfed with the addition of the rules that you must have points in reserve for anything you summoned

This also got applied to Horrors so you no longer got pinks into blues etc etc unless you had points in reserve for them -so yeah basically it made horrors far less appealing-

[thin ibex]

I think I was playing in 8th

[tired cairn]

The horrors part was unfortunate

[bright dove]

Ok, yeah, the Summoning rules burned into my brain are from 3rd Edition lol

[modest meadow]

It has been many moons since I played but the only reason I even vaguely remember this was because I remember how ludicrous this was abuseable with

hey, nothing wrong with that

I myself misremembered just what got trimmed and didnt from SM, none of us are perfect

[bright dove]

No wonder I was not at all resonating with what you were saying

[modest meadow]

-no emperor's children not even you, don't you dare blare the freaking speakers young hermaphrodite!-

[bright dove]

What I consider the times of Yore and what others consider the times of Yore are... different

[modest meadow]

I mean, understandable. I am but a neonate who got introduced around the tail end of 7th edition

Back when TS was fresh, when Psychic disciplines was a thing, and back when we had Cults of magic -rip.-

[bright dove]

You mean back when they first separated out Rubric Marines into a different army

This conversation has made me feel old

[modest meadow]

Pretty much. then decided what we needed -in an army laden with characters- was more characters lmao

[tardy vault]

Someone here might find this interesting. This is all the armies playing in my local escalation league.

[bright dove]

3 Stormcast

[tardy vault]

The Fyreslayers, one of the Stormcast, the Lumineth, the Kruelboyz, and the Gloomspite Gitz I know are vets. Slaves might be as well.

[tardy vault]

considering the sheer value that their Skaventide box and Spearhead are in just raw points

I'm not surprised

You can get a full 2k list of Stormcast for $200 right now with like minimal ebaying

it won't be great, but it's an army

[modest meadow]

sheesh though

3 stormcasts

and not a city of sigmar

[tardy vault]

Lotta missing factions

[modest meadow]

for shame

for shame. No one faith steel and gunpowdering.

[tardy vault]

[thin ibex]

First go

[tardy vault]

have you considered fucked up evil snake women instead?

[modest meadow]

https://tenor.com/bQy3G.gif

N A Y

[uneven ember]

the fuckin' haircut I love it

[sour sequoia]

Leadbelchers are kinda funky because their shooting isn’t like. Actually Good on its own especially when you can buff melee to insane degrees

Leadbelchers and Ironblasters with their battle formation get pretty funny though because then you aren’t giving up on melee, and being in melee = not moving, getting the boost for your shoot-in-combat

The Maneaters… are maybe one of the biggest jokes for points and $$ value, at like $108 for 3 guys

[thin ibex]

ive often been more attracted to the chunky metal vibes rather than the tundra hunter vibes of ogres

[sour sequoia]

Mhm. Gutbusters side is the strong half right now for sure

[thin ibex]

messy greasy black oil fire, chunky metal gut plates, rust etc

thats unfortunate for maneaters

they seem to have some fun gimmicks

[sour sequoia]

Gluttons, Butchers, Ironguts, Bloodpelt Hunters crank

[thin ibex]

does the assessement change if purely playing online?

[sour sequoia]

lolno

[thin ibex]

ah drats

well something to bring for a theme list one day and accepting that they'll underperform

[modest meadow]

That is pretty much the rub unless something changes in 5e

[sour sequoia]

They’re still due for a battletome and big range refresh, didn’t go to Old World so I have faith

[modest meadow]

Personally wondering what'll happen to CoS Airforce if the dispossessed and Dark Aelves get removed

Given that outside of Dispossessed your air options are iirc Characters only

[paper bluff]

No. I serve the summer king!

[modest meadow]

But toddy.. ._.

[thin ibex]

i just like maneaters cause they're still the gluttnous lads of the normal ogres but theyre worldly gluttons

sometimes they have shurikens

or a pistol the size of man

[sour sequoia]

They’re absolutely hilarious models

I’d use em for tyrant and butcher variety atm

But like literally everything gutbusters besides maneaters and kinda tyrants is strong

Bloodpelt Hunters dunk centerpiece models like very little else

You reach army-wide advance and charge easy, the faction terrains both buff butchers really well

[thin ibex]

tyrants seem to have a decent enough stat line but nothing like terribly stand out

[sour sequoia]

They’re fine, yeah. But butchers and slaughermasters crank as do all the models that don’t need tyrants to be accessed in regiment

Cheaper too

[modest meadow]

Sorta like how unless you're running dispossessed as the frontline you dont have an incentive to take a dispossessed hero as leader

[sour sequoia]

Tyrant gets you gnoblars and BCR rockets in the same regiment if you need. But gnoblars are not bricks of murder that justify the tyrant and BCR heroes are good enough on their own you can just Take The Extra Drop.

[modest meadow]

and even then you're going to have humans for the cheaper gunlines and also the nice orders

[sour sequoia]

If you really spam ironguts, like double reinforced, tyrant probably worth sticking between em and running as one huge brick for 5+ ward

[thin ibex]

mmm so like lets say a classic ogor list would be what, like a tyrant, some leadbelchers, mournfangs, and... which one is the "standard" ogor unit?

bulls arent a thing right?

[sour sequoia]

Bulls became Gluttons, line infantry.
Ironguts are your elites.

Gorger Mawpacks are anti-horde flankers

[thin ibex]

ok, i dont know the points but i figure at a small scale id be rollilng around with a tyrant, leadbealchers, gluttons, and mournfangs to cover my core, my range, and my cav

and then expand from there

[sour sequoia]

Mawpacks, Gluttons, Ironguts all 240pts per unit so its very easy blocking points wise

[thin ibex]

to get more elites, magic, n so on

oh neat

im guessing gluttons are more models than ironguts but worse stats?

[modest meadow]

https://wahapedia.ru/aos4/factions/ogor-mawtribes/Ogor-Gluttons
This might be iffy of me but

I rather enjoy wahapedia

if only because it is rather useful to a tts scrub like me

[sour sequoia]

Slightly worse, higher OC and higher volume due to being 6 models.

Since one of the stock Ogor spells is “+1 Attacks till start of next turn” Gluttons sometimes actually become bigger threats, reinforced Gluttons w/ the spell slam 60 attacks per fight

[thin ibex]

i dont think theres anything strange about enjoying wahapedia?

i like not paying out the ass to learn thing about the game for the most part

[modest meadow]

I unno, you never know when the GW loyalist sleepers erupt out and tear your throat out

Do they exist? I unno, but I do not intend to find out

[thin ibex]

we have plenty of people in this chat who stan proxy/printing and waha

Hmm so id be fine if i went either ironguts or gluttons to start, but might lean gluttons if i get a caster

[modest meadow]

https://tenor.com/6sC6.gif

[thin ibex]

are ironguts kinda general purpose killy boys?

[sour sequoia]

Squishier than gluttons by way of lower volume, have stock elite bodyguard rule and once-per-game-per-unit Fight Twice

But a min unit throwing 12 * 4+/2+/2/3 does tend to slam with the best of them

[thin ibex]

i take it most enemies wont like getting charged by a tyrant led unit of either type either way

[sour sequoia]

If Ogors get the charge off, you win.

[thin ibex]

avalanche of muscle

[modest meadow]

I can't really think of anything in TOW or AoS really that could survive Ogors charging off

Only thing I could think of would possibly be some of the monstrous creatures if they're so lucky?

[thin ibex]

is the tech with leadbelchers sort of "Yes shoot, but ALSO charge"

[sour sequoia]

Frostlord Stonehorns on their own will instagib greater daemons and Archaeon on average if you use the ward-denial artefact of power

Buffed Gluttons and double-fighting Ironguts are even worse

[modest meadow]

https://tenor.com/65TO.gif

Uh. What

[thin ibex]

is ogors playstyle a little feast or famine cause i have so few models?

much like custodes

[sour sequoia]

GRILLMASTER MIKE AND THE BOYS WANT TO KNOW YOUR LOCATION

[thin ibex]

each ogor leader character is just a permutation of platonic Dad

[sour sequoia]

Exactly like custodes. And yeah Leadbelchers have Fine Shooting, but they also hit as Ogors in melee so like. Fuck it dude charge em

[modest meadow]

Only difference is that Ogors are FAR less shiny

and less likely to be called bananas.

[thin ibex]

You got the grill dad, you have the house dad, you have the went to school uphill in the snow both ways dad

[sour sequoia]

Your faction terrains are the potluck stewpot and the divine bbq pit

Not even joking

[thin ibex]

are faction terrains a thing that like

i should always be having?

do all teh factions have their own terrain stuff?

[modest meadow]

They do. Except I think Cities of sigmar

[sour sequoia]

They cost 0 points and you uniquely have a choice of 2 in Ogors case

[sour sequoia]

Tzeentch, SBGL, Cities, Nighthaunt, DoK, Kharadron, Behemat do not have one

[modest meadow]

Ah. Gotchaaa....

[sour sequoia]

Costs 0 points and actually assists your gameplan by cranking Butchers or Slaughtermasters by either: expanding the ranges of their stuff and crapping out mortals while they man the grillpit, or the stewpot providing +1 power level which you can consume for an army-wide heal pulse and refreshing when ogors kill a unit nearby

[floral herald]

JBR’s stuff is so good

[uneven ember]

she rules

[modest meadow]

Is Cities of Sigmar mid or

decent

[sour sequoia]

they're fine tbh, I think the december changes put em up better

[thin ibex]

Blam, test list

[sour sequoia]

what's the formation? I think you're better off with a Butcher over slaughtermaster as your first wizard

[thin ibex]

formation? uh... i picked battle regiment

oh wait

wait

[sour sequoia]

oh is this on 3rd ed

[thin ibex]

i think this is 3.0

yeah

my b

[sour sequoia]

lmaooo I dont know SHIT abt 3rd to be honest

[tardy vault]

CoS is doing ok. Their main issue right now is their dwarf and elf sections are very much in danger.

[modest meadow]

yeah... ._.

our dispossessed friends and aelves are kinda.... looking fadey

[thin ibex]

ohh so i have to bring a second regiment to bring a butcher?

[tardy vault]

Malerion is poised to snatch the elves and the White Dwarf is actively uniting the dwarves.

[sour sequoia]

yeah 😔 you don't actually mind the penalties for bringing extra drops because the ability to bring a second Honor Guard unit means you can do like. Ironguts Bodyguard, and then giving the Butcher outside your general's regiment Field Sergeant and all your ogors within 12" of him are Move 8, Advance and Charge, +2" Run from Being Ogors

deathball with 20" average threat radius is good

[thin ibex]

oh hmm how would i give field sergeant, can i just do that?

[sour sequoia]

Its over under competitive play rules - this is in the errata'd version, I'll post in a sec.

[tardy vault]

tbf 2 drop is well within range to still have priority

[sour sequoia]

oh yeah 2 drop means no second honor guard but you get priority most days. Still good since you Get Charge

[tardy vault]

the lists that truly are shooting for 2 honor guards end up with like 4 drops

[sour sequoia]

the existence of Field Sergeant and Prized Beast along with the december points changes shot Ogors WR up to like 54% lol

[thin ibex]

i figure my idea be like, have a healthy amount of firepower as i get closer and then still dangerous on objectives

though i think maybe i shouldnt have the second ironblaster and minimum size leadbelchers

just have more punchers instead

[sour sequoia]

So if you wanna run blackpowder I think 1 reinforced leadbelchers + 1 ironblaster is plenty, since they still need a hero within 3". They take a lotta babysitting compared to the other formations which are very much just 'haha wizards go brrrr' or 'haha guaranteed 4-7 mortals every monster truck charge'

[thin ibex]

leadbelchers just capture my imagination on the silliness of ogors

I'm gonna use an actual cannon as my hand weapon

[sour sequoia]

I'd turn the mournfang into more punchers if you're not running other BCRs

[thin ibex]

no big benefit for bringing cav?

[sour sequoia]

they're only 3" faster than your normal dudes, only the champion has a gun, and every single ogors unit has cavalry impact damage. Lumpen Wall of Flesh is glorious but it only affects Beastclaw Raider units.

[thin ibex]

mm makes sense

maybe better to bring a monster?

[sour sequoia]

Frostlords on Stonehorns are fucking rockets

[thin ibex]

i guess other alt is to go a bit "wide" to make sure my belchers and blaster have more up time

[sour sequoia]

otherwise, spamming gluttons Will Work. Adding a Bloodpelt Hunter in there as well will give you a ridiculous anti-monster tool or hero hunter

[thin ibex]

and reason to take gnoblars"?

any*

[sour sequoia]

not... really. It's what the tyrant turns on but because you never ever wanna do auxiliary units, they're not actually a 120pt screen they're basically a 250pt screen

if you want screening and flanking units, grab some min units of frost sabres

[thin ibex]

mm mmake sense

how would i slip a bloodpelt in? third regiment?

[sour sequoia]

fits as a bonus hero in a Tyrant's regiment if you want 2 drops

[thin ibex]

ooo

[sour sequoia]

130pt duder that does maximized damage in shooting against monsters means he spikes like crazy

and its enough damage and rend to hunt lone heroes or scoring units

[modest meadow]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/y24U-EVU1rc?feature=share

Why Chaos dwarfs are not in AoS

Because The Hungerer of God Blood would be the eternal

There is no Escape.
He WILL have hashut's blood

NO ONE. IS SAFE

[past sphinx]

honestly im suprised that the sky boys have absolutely nothing to do with the bull

though i think its mostly due to how chaos has a much more limited presence as bad guys with death also running around

[dense sedge]

what were these?

[modest meadow]

Leagues of Votann Launching with Ridiculous rules (HuNTR basically being Full Auto but with none of the caveats to trigger, Void Armour basically triggering people for how good their saves were compared to most, Grudge tokens being way easier to farm possibly -Don't recall too well there tbh-)
And Warhammer+ Coinciding with a purge which may or may not have been true of Warhammer Fan Animations, or Poaching of Talented Fan Animators into Warhammer+

But by and large its mainly just a balance issue, most are happy that the Leagues of Votann (AKA Squats) are back

sure they uh.. lost most of the outright dorfyness but hey...
atleast their race didn't get extincted in a single go in a hilariously poorly written extinction event

now whether you consider the strange retcon of them teaching the tau how Ion Weapons work is uh.... a matter of perspective. But hey, The Tau like the Demiurg and the Demiurg like that they are profitable business partners

[floral herald]

https://youtu.be/A1ajTt2Ggg8
Mountainside Tabletop has their look at the balance dataslate video

I like their stuff since they're I think some of the best level headed looks at the game

[modest meadow]

Personally I think people woulda lost their shit less if HuNTR wasn't Full Auto but just on always

but yeah in general, I would advise checking many sources, as my original information of Ogre poppenang dropping ITEHTTS might not have been born of the fear of GW and more just that they didn't really wanna work on it anymore and this gave em an out

What to some is a frothing reason to summon the banners is to others Meh

Also for context what the heck HuNTR was, here's 10E's Rules for the HYlas Auto Rifle:

Assault, Rapid fire 3.

Here's it as archived on 1d6chan:

https://d1w82usnq70pt2.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/huntr.jpg

In other words, you just always got to shoot 2 or 3 shots, there was no need to worry about advancing or anything. You'll always be able to shoot those shots, there was no incentive to risk their necks by bringing em in close or anything

just plonk those 2 shots from as faaaaar away as needed

So in exchange for the sacrifice of Not being able to just always output [X] Rolls, The Kinhost now enjoys 3 Attacks on it's Auto Rifle, with a potential to bump that up to 6

In general it's still a solid faction, it's just that people will never forget the time these s-I mean, Stout individuals basically had rules that for reasons beholden only to GW had rules which ignored normal game rules (such as the aforementioned Full Auto not being used by them)

https://d1w82usnq70pt2.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/armour.jpg

Oh yeah and they also had that

These two were basically why pre-nerf LoV were despised basically

Because as it turns out, no one likes something that you can't re-roll to wound for which can have a truly ludicrous armour save

Void Armour Remains now as an Oathband Detachment Stratagem

There may have been other reasons why Initial Release LoV were despised from a gameplay end but more or less the -1 AP And Oh You Can't Reroll Wound Rolls and "I just always get this many shots, why NOT fire from max range if I can?" probably seeded some bitterness towards em

[brittle salmon]

I mean they were just wildly overpowered

Is really what it boils down to

[modest meadow]

Basically

Like, there's no sugarcoating it, someone who just never needs to think "Hey should I risk being easier to charge so I fire off more ranged shots" and has -1 AP Armor and No Rerolls to damaging is just... pretty bullshit really

[floral herald]

Yeah the "backlash" was pretty overblown but pretty much came down to a German tourney getting mad because they had a bunch of weird rules and came out like 3 weeks before the tournament and also had elite shooting at mid-horde PPMs

I super don't think HunTR was what drove it though

If there was a rule which did it was Beam since Beam was whack as hell on launch

[modest meadow]

Oh right... Beam

I forgot that keyword exists given how few things had that thing but man that was pretty ridiculous

Yeah so I draw a line here.. and here. Now Roll to see if you die.

but I mainly say backlash as the things you usually find on the web is the vocal bunch griping usually, Cough, this includes 1d4/1d6chan Cough.

[past sphinx]

And people have absolutely no idea how to fight shooting armies usually

source : former tau player

[floral herald]

It is kind of funny how it seems like people consistently get madder at being shot off the board than shanked off of it

Same thing for Leafblower Guard

[past sphinx]

glorious honorable combat!

[floral herald]

Admittedly Leafblower was actually exceptional

[brittle salmon]

Because fighting in close combat gives you a chance to "Fight back" is the rationale, probably

[modest meadow]

That and you have a 'grace period' before they actually can kill you

[brittle salmon]

(This is not true for any really good melee army lol)

[floral herald]

It's funny how people still talk about Fish of Fury as this cheesy strat which cast a long shadow since 3rd edition but...

This was the same edition where Blood Angels had safe deterministic T1 and T2 charges and could sweep armies off the map by T3

[modest meadow]

said grace period basically boiling down to however long it takes your opponent to manage a charge into engagement range

[floral herald]

But people don't talk about Baal Rhinos of Fury

[brittle salmon]

Oh yeah, overcharged engines

AKA run before run existed

[modest meadow]

Im fairly certain the Rhino has the Black Rage.

[past sphinx]

boxes of hatred

[modest meadow]

It saw Horus and the machine spirit went "DESTROY HIM"

https://tenor.com/bvz8S.gif

I will say though

as a TS player
I am kinda glad Coruscating beam is freaking gone.

That thing was just... stupid.

Stupid good but like.. just also.. stupid to deal with

[floral herald]

I may be mixing editions but I thought they just made the Rhino have the Fast rule

So 18" movement but no disembark

[brittle salmon]

Oh maybe

I might be thinking 5th

[floral herald]

IIRC the strat was you just stuffed melee fellas in Rhinos slammed them 18" up the board and popped smoke

Rhinos in smoke were pretty durable, and even if you killed them the marines inside could just shelter in the wreckage for cover unless it blew up

[brittle salmon]

And then they just footslog the rest of the way

[floral herald]

Then they got their full 12" threat range for melee for a 36" threat range

[brittle salmon]

I miss static charge ranges

[floral herald]

38" ish inches if you don't kill the Rhino

[brittle salmon]

Still heavily dislike randomized charge

[floral herald]

Yeah same

I mean I didn't really have them since I played Orks

And waaagh! meant I had a turn of non-static charge ranges

[pastel rampart]

http://puu.sh/KnntE/b8c5ea9f3d.jpg

[brittle salmon]

lmao

[brittle salmon]

Oh there you go

We were both like, half right

[floral herald]

oh my fucking god it didn't turn off disembarking

[brittle salmon]

Together we can make a mostly accurate assumption

Yes

[pastel rampart]

http://puu.sh/KnntK/1c42c7912c.jpg

BA were TURBO FAST

[brittle salmon]

Oh my god they have a random surge move too

Goofy ahh rules

[pastel rampart]

Also fun fact: vehicles didn't have disembark points!

[floral herald]

I did remember that!

[pastel rampart]

You just sorta dropped your dudes out from wherever.

So a BA rhino could, if Black Rage kicked in and you got max roll, move 24 fucking inches in one turn, drop the dudes out, and proceed to mulch whatever was within 6" of it.

And then you'd just sweeping advance endlessly because 3e did not have limits on that

[brittle salmon]

This was also before disembarkation prevented charges right

[pastel rampart]

Yup.

[floral herald]

I forget - ah

I just know that nearly every transport restriction in the 40k rules was written in the blood of Blood Angels Victim Armies haha

[modest meadow]

Hahahahaha probably yeah xD

[brittle salmon]

Yeah, little wonder

[mild glen]

Didn't Ork Trukks used to have a transport capacity of "however many boyz you can hang off the model" or is that an old timer pulling my leg forever ago when I didn't play

[floral herald]

Multiple decades of being menaced by the Mechanized Melee Monsters

[floral herald]

That was a rule but not in 40k

[pastel rampart]

Yes but that was only in Gorka Morka.

[floral herald]

It was a GorkaMorka rule

[modest meadow]

I know it's unlikely but

[mild glen]

That's delightful. Thank you.

[pastel rampart]

some people got confused and brought it into 3e proper and honestly I just let'em do it because it was funnier that way

[modest meadow]

I wonder if LoV will see the silly trains return again in some more LoV Styled form

with equipment options varying based on ferried along cabooses

[brittle salmon]

RE: random charge ranges, I like a whole lot better in HH

Where it's 6+d6 instead

[modest meadow]

Me when I play trench Crusade: We Just roll to see if we double our movement, if we fail we lose our turn

[mild glen]

Also there was no such thing as an "Ork Trukk" kit and you just kitbashed whatever you could into something vaguely trukk-shaped.

[modest meadow]

How orky!

[past sphinx]

sadly Gw no longer has kitbashed trukks on the product page 😦

[floral herald]

This was a VERY old thing - the original Trukk was from GorkaMorka iirc

I personally did not like it that much

[mild glen]

Anyway, I'm off to glue a bunch of bitz onto a Hammerhead and claim it's a Shokkjump Dragsta (I will not actually be doing this)

[modest meadow]

I feel like a neophyte listening to a Dreadnought recounting sagas

[floral herald]

Haha, I started playing late in 4e

[brittle salmon]

I had a brief stint in 5e

[modest meadow]

<---Began my journey in 8e

[floral herald]

I played for a little 4e all of 5e and a little 6e

And then moved 1000 miles for school and didn't bring any models with me

I'm slowly picking up again haha

[pastel rampart]

I started in 3e, and almost a year before the Tau were first introduced.

[mild glen]

I bought my first kit waaaaaaay back in 2010? I think that was 5e?
I didn't actually start tabletop until last year.

(I made the mistake of having a Baneblade be my first kit and it intimidated me)

[floral herald]

That's a WILD first kit

[mild glen]

I blame Dawn of War

[modest meadow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpBngmCpUrU

[floral herald]

This was my first model and I fucking hated it

I still think it's awful to put together haha

[brittle salmon]

lootas sweep

[past sphinx]

my first was an assault marine i bought for a dollar out of a case for some reason

[modest meadow]

Its all the ammo belts

[mild glen]

My second kit -- and the first unit I painted -- was these guys

[past sphinx]

he became a space wolf

[floral herald]

Big Shoota Kommando

[modest meadow]

I've so far been Fully digital but if I were to start with a first models

[floral herald]

Oh here it is in pieces

[modest meadow]

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/573d77_f39be88910f7451dad394526133b6ff9~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_905,h_935,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/573d77_f39be88910f7451dad394526133b6ff9~mv2.jpg

[past sphinx]

oh thats hell

everything falls off that the moment its touched

[floral herald]

I didn't know how to score properly or pin so getting the arms to stay on was extremely hard

[modest meadow]

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/573d77_7eff5c382873443081712c85515c15fe~mv2.jpeg/v1/fill/w_905,h_935,al_c,q_85,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/573d77_7eff5c382873443081712c85515c15fe~mv2.jpeg

[floral herald]

Read: I never succeeded and eventually gave up on that model after it became pretty defaced with excess glue

[modest meadow]

Its a tie between Cities of Sigmar or Thousand Sons for me as my first foray into modeling

[brittle salmon]

Oh huh, nvm

[floral herald]

Oh my gosh lootas never got a resculpt since I started playing

[mild glen]

My wife's first kit was almost Dreadblade Harrows because, and I quote: "Ghost Horsies"

[brittle salmon]

ack...

[floral herald]

They're good models they just need to be subassembled to paint properly

[modest meadow]

Atleast it's not Stormcast Saalaksin

[floral herald]

Why are Stormcast so weird to assemble haha

[tardy vault]

The first model I built was a Melusai Ironscale

which is a fairly new kit and wasn't too bad

[floral herald]

Acting like a starter faction but they're Not Normal to assemble

[tardy vault]

however

[modest meadow]

Who I still feel are abit of false advertising -given they are not literally just living humanoid storm beings-
That and they're all balthasar Gelt Posers

[tardy vault]

my second model was a unit of Doomfire Warlocks

and that

that was pain

2000s dark elf kit

[mild glen]

Some stormcast models look really cool.

I like the look of the Vanguard guys with the crossbows.

And, truthfully, Stormcast might have been her first kit, too, because Dragon

[tardy vault]

Dragons are so good rn too....

[mild glen]

We ended up getting her the older S2D spearhead... which sits unfinished.
And a unit of Bloodletters, which just needs paint.

[floral herald]

My partner started with a box of Harlequins

Which were apparently pretty weird to assemble

Ok technically the starter set gants

But those are like 2-3 piece push fits

[rocky shale]

Harlequins are a little funky yeah

the legs are fucky

[mild glen]

Dammit, my brain just did a little three month backstep and now it's obsessing over the idea of doing a Halloween-themed army.

Kult of Speed

Featuring a Deffkilla Wartike with the head cut off as the 'eadless orksman

[thin ibex]

i saw yall post it up but i was wondering

why are the blood angels the ones associated

with boosting their engines?

seems like itd be white scar or iron hands

[uneven ember]

because Blood Angels had their own Codex much earlier

[thin ibex]

i suppose that makes sense, and i guess if it was early enough, them being red is a valid excuse

[brittle salmon]

I kinda want to give Aquilons a try in KT now the dataslate is out

[floral herald]

The buffs to them seem really nice

[thin ibex]

They seem real cool

[floral herald]

Yeah Insomniac has it entirely - BA’s had a codex back when Iron Hands and White Scars were nothing but a name (and example army in Rogue Trader)

[thin ibex]

Just think it's stayed with them all this time

Blood angels, the jetpack guys, supercharge their vehicle engines and install NOS canisters

Blood angels are secretly vampire nobility petrolheads

On wings and 12 cylinder diesel

White Scars just build better engines to begin with

Alright, someone hit me with a 40k list theme and faction

I'll try and make a 2k point list before bed

[modest meadow]

That and well

Blood angels HAVE always had more of a close combat oriented focus since inception really

If i recall correctly in lore the devestators of the company are specifically chosen from those showing the least signs of the red thirst, so that they are far less likely to wind up screwing everyone over by trying to throw hands instead of laying down covering fire

[thin ibex]

I must clutch my space wolf pearls.

In response to close combat orientation

[desert jay]

If you want a minor meme, DA with at least one squad of Deathwing Knights and one Imperial Knight

[junior summit]

blood angels are the rah rah melee fighty guys yeah

though they're getting a lot of competition from black templars now

but the death company are iconic

[modest meadow]

Whoah

also lol, the black templars impulsor.
Aka: Ok but stick a multi-melta on

[uneven ember]

not actually certain what that's about but hey, sure, why not

[modest meadow]

Basically, normal impulsor can only opt to take a Heavy

The black templars one gets to take a multi melta instead if it so feels inclined

[sour sequoia]

I’m very late to this but this is an extremely funny joke in 10th as the faction without Fights First

[brittle salmon]

Oh it is

I'm just giving the "rationale" lol

[paper bluff]

Based

[sweet solar]

i missed this discussion yesterday but if they want to trim down space marine kits they should just combine them

have "space marine squad" and you can use tacticals or primaris, Its Fine

they are so close mechanically anyway

[floral herald]

My guess is that’s gonna happen when the Tactical kit gets retired

We’ll get a sort of “battleline squad” which is kinda like scrappier intercessors with more weapon options

In general I think the primaris norm of specialized squads will remain though

[paper bluff]

I do agree that the space marine line was huge. Poster boys and all that but yeah

[unreal cosmos]

I mean that's... not NOT where we've already ended up

The difference has basically been eroded away so you're free to use whatever models you want. But also the new stuff is going to follow the updated design principles.

[paper bluff]

On that, I do think the designs generally are better now

But they could be more whimsical

[floral herald]

I miss the more patchwork mismatched marks of armor of non-primaris

But that’s kinda it for my substantive aesthetic criticisms

I also don’t like the knee protector flanges that much

But that’s really minor haha

[modest meadow]

I hope they just quietly sweept the invictor warsuit under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist

SM's didn't need the ripley walker

[paper bluff]

Like centurions?

[solemn gull]

Baby carrier 2.0

I didn’t hate it

[floral herald]

I think the Invictor is ok but damn Centurions look goofy

[solemn gull]

That’s part of the charm

[floral herald]

The ones which don’t have Huge Drills kinda work for me

[solemn gull]

Also the giant underarm drills were cool as hell

Duality of man

[paper bluff]

Is the invictor just the new dread kit with less armor plates?

[solemn gull]

It’s the one that’s not a dread

[modest meadow]

No, it's literally the ripley Lifter suit

[solemn gull]

Just like, marine mech

[modest meadow]

with gun.

[floral herald]

Also just has pilot instead of a nearly dead guy

[modest meadow]

Which felt frankly like Aliens fan pulling for no good reason. I mean uh.... We have dreadnoughts chief.

[floral herald]

Functionally it’s more like a Sentinel for Phobos marines

[desert jay]

It feels silly that it's like a tactical stealth walker

[floral herald]

It doesn’t look all that stealthy

[paper bluff]

I meant kit wise

[floral herald]

Though I guess it’s more just supposed to be fast and air mobile

(Most SM vehicles are air mobile ofc)

[desert jay]

It has Scouts, phobos keyword, and a phobos-synergy ability

[floral herald]

Yeah, I dig it because Phobos are my favorite part of the primaris range

[desert jay]

And the fluff includes "Outfitted with silent reactors and servos..."

Yeah I like all the other phobos stuff, but the invictor is silly

[modest meadow]

It's basically bigger Marine, but somehow able to be quiet (This is some raven guard chicanery)

[floral herald]

I mean… it doesn’t have any stealth keywords

Lore wise they’re quiet but mostly fast

[modest meadow]

It's still ridiculous.

[thin ibex]

I imagine quiet is relative, it's not tiptoeing up behind a guard and stealth killing someone

[bright dove]

No, that's a Baneblade's job. 😛

[jaunty dawn]

strategically stealthy

invinctorn is fine though. its got a heavy bolter pistol :)

its more of a like

idk avatar thing

ripleys power lifter got put in decades ago with the sentinel power lifter

[modest meadow]

both from a model, lore, and gameplay angle as by all extants are purposes
This just exists to give Phobos what is basically a really weird Fusion of Devastator (heavy Bolter/Twin Ironhail Autocannon/Twin Ironhail Heavy Stubber) And Aggressors (The Fragstorm Grenade Launcher + Throwing Hands) on what looks like a dreadnought

It is Graft. It is jank graft.

[bright dove]

It's just a silly lil' guy and I love 'em.

[modest meadow]

I mean yeah but...
it really seems like something more fitting to the orks

that's my personal take anyways aesthetically

[jaunty dawn]

i think something to keep in mind abt primaris is that the whole range is designed to have parts that appeal to different ppl

[solemn gull]

By the standards of a 40k battlefield it’s probably a ghost

[floral herald]

The heavy bolter pistol is goated

[solemn gull]

Making space marines able to be played in any conceivable way is the main cause of the bloat

[jaunty dawn]

but also as with all space marine sneaking they literally have magic anti noise balls

[solemn gull]

A narrower playstyle would be nice so maybe people would play other factions

[jaunty dawn]

i mean like it or not space marines arent meant to be just another faction

and thats not really ever gonna change I dont think

[floral herald]

Ironically the Invictor doesn’t seem to use stummers it’s just quieted in basic ways

[modest meadow]

Personally I could do without primaris being eldar-esque in having units purpose specialized for certain roles (Looking at You Desolators/Eradicators/Hellblasters)

[floral herald]

One would think vehicular stummers would be real popular haha

[jaunty dawn]

how are desolators more specialised than a 4 missile launcher devestator squad though

or hellblasters more specialised than a plasma gun squad from heresy

[modest meadow]

They can't take anything else

[jaunty dawn]

right but thats just like

[modest meadow]

A Tac squad or devestator you have versatility

[jaunty dawn]

its just a name

[pulsar cairn]

What does the 9 mean

[modest meadow]

Which was kinda meant to be the shtick of space marines

[solemn gull]

9th squad

Second company

[pulsar cairn]

Oh

[jaunty dawn]

i also think aspect warriors have a lot more going for them than just having a set loadout

[modest meadow]

Not really when you consider that the Desolators/Hellblasters/Eradicators have rules that make them overshadow what the original did

[floral herald]

Yeah those are usually squad or unit numberings

I’m not sure how Invictors fit into the company org though

[jaunty dawn]

right but thats changes in philosophy for how rules are written

[modest meadow]

There's not really an incentive to go meltaguns on other units when you can just bring a purpose built -albeit highly targetted squad- to pop tanks

[floral herald]

So it might be a motor pool number

[modest meadow]

Penny how is this not SM copying Fire Dragons or Eldar Aspect warriors though.

or imitating

[jaunty dawn]

and you can see the exact same thing where the rules for tau battlesuits have adjusted for the game as it stands at the time

[modest meadow]

Maybe so but it's still SM Arsenal starting to imitate the Eldar

[jaunty dawn]

cause fundamentally i think aspect warriors are defined more by stuff like exarchs than by their ability to take 4 melta guns

[floral herald]

It’s both rules and lore wise “copying” from the space marine legions

[jaunty dawn]

sororitas dominions have been special weapons squads since at least 3e and theyre nothing like aspect warriors either

[modest meadow]

You guys are ignoring the point

[jaunty dawn]

no, I just disagree with it

[modest meadow]

I have been saying that original space marine Faction design is: Versatility
Your Tacticals/Devestators can be outfitted for any particular mission needs

[solemn gull]

Yes we should bring back points!

[modest meadow]

But they look less appealing if all you want is a squad that's meant to pop tanks upclose, why not just take an Eradicator squad then or etc for the ability to reroll

[floral herald]

This is also true for fire support squads

[jaunty dawn]

but its not like theres a mechanic where devestators get to list tailor

[floral herald]

Eradicators/Desolators/etc are just the same fellas bringing a specific weapon

[jaunty dawn]

so rules wise, that versatility is not seen in game

and lore wise, what cyan said

gw just want to sell bespoke models for every devestator loadout

and every tactical support loadout, and every tactical squad loadout

[modest meadow]

I just feel personally like the making of them as a seperate unit seems odd

Why not put them in as just a replacement option in tactical/devestator squads

It feels -personally- like unnecessary list bloat

[floral herald]

That would be terrible to buy haha

[thin ibex]

In practical terms its not odd at all, that's how people fielded them. No one really fielded devastators with mixed loads unless you were me

by dedicating squads to the weapon, you can have special rules for the squad

[modest meadow]

Fair enough hahaha

[floral herald]

That’s true, outside of 2/2 splits since usually 1 box couldn’t make a 4/0 dev squad

[jaunty dawn]

partially its about like

not having as many trap options for the beginner faction

[thin ibex]

like devastators had options? Sure, except those options, actually, were just all multi melta or all lascannons.

[jaunty dawn]

its just also just a general game design direction more fundamental than just space marines

[thin ibex]

except me, I ran all missile launchers to be bad at 2 things instead of good at anything

[jaunty dawn]

as units become increasingly defined by their special rule

[floral herald]

All plascannons was popular in 5e too

[thin ibex]

oh also all grav cannons was a thing for a bit

devastator stuffed drop pods filled with grav cannons

[floral herald]

“Generic squads with 1-2 good weapons” has also just been Usually Bad in 40k as well

[jaunty dawn]

and like Im not saying the game design direction is better but it is kinda just what it is

yeah

[floral herald]

Tacticals have almost always been a tax

[jaunty dawn]

gw refuse to make a game where tactical squads are good

or well

ironically now they are alright. or at least squads of this type. because free wargear

but everyone hates that lol

[thin ibex]

but in general yeah, it was actually more about making choices that have value when picked and a clear intent.

[jaunty dawn]

despite it being the first time iconic units are actually playable how they're meant to be

[thin ibex]

Hey I dont necessarily hate the free wargear think

[jaunty dawn]

no i dont either

just like

broadly speaking

[sweet solar]

the free wargear is busted imo

[floral herald]

Legionaries are also pretty decent right now

[cinder wraith]

the free wargear is meh imo

[thin ibex]

im one of those tau players who thinks the crisis suit changes were actually good and warranted

[desert jay]

Which makes it really funny that they gave Desolators the same rule as Devastators (minus the cherub)

[floral herald]

But that’s less a free wargear thing and move them being points efficient melee

Albeit

[cinder wraith]

just the limitation on how much of said wargear i can take sucks

can i have a big unit of berzerkers with eviscerators? thanks

[floral herald]

They’re decent but a little outcompeted because they’re in the Points Efficient Melee Army

[jaunty dawn]

i personally think the shallow faction design that people blame on free wargear is the exact same problem 40k has always had just in a different direction

[modest meadow]

The Free Wargear is more or less "Eh. Neat."
If you were going to take it you'd always have taken it, it just means now that freed up tax can be used to others

[sweet solar]

id genuinely rather have unit cards with specific wargear than free wargear
then at least it can be worth it to make different army builds rather than there being statistically obvious "if you dont do this you are making your units worse" choices

[floral herald]

Wargear being only limited by points has also always been really rare

[thin ibex]

I imagine its probably easier to balance a squad when the active assumption is that they'll have the most expensive options at their normal cost

[modest meadow]

Eh, that's just a consequence of wargames in general

[cinder wraith]

berzerker chainblade S5 Ap-1 Dam1

[jaunty dawn]

oh yeah the weird loadouts to discourage 3rd party bits sucks

[cinder wraith]

eviscerator S8 Ap-2 Dam2

[sweet solar]

i disagree, because the problem is that it makes it litereally impossible to ballance if the options are free

[modest meadow]

Even in videogames you have that mentality of "Dude/dudette, why did you build this, this is inferior"

[sweet solar]

compare old 40k where a more powerful wargear choice cost more

[cinder wraith]

horus heresy says otherwise

[thin ibex]

I wouldn't say it makes it literally impossible to balance

[jaunty dawn]

at least it means we occasionally get great kits like sisters of battle having 4 of every special weapon

[sweet solar]

you can build something worse but cheaper

[thin ibex]

also I think 40k is more balanced now than it generally has been

[sweet solar]

and have the statistics be the same

[cinder wraith]

a full 10 man rampagers unit with eviscerators

[sweet solar]

with the CHOICE being quality or quantity, which varies in succsess with playstyle and target

[modest meadow]

but yeah, It feels odd for that to be gone now

[jaunty dawn]

but in practical terms thats not really how it was for the majority of units

[cinder wraith]

i need to play more HH frfr

[floral herald]

HH has lots of limits besides points

[thin ibex]

Generally I kinda prefer balancing qulity vs quality, like "what are these options each good at" rather than "this thing is just worse" They don't always succeed at that, but i think its there now. The external meta to balance against is of course needing to be able to kill marines, but option internal balance is what im talking about

[cinder wraith]

i doubt that unless you are talking about roster / characters

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

like its possible to balance both versions

and the fact that they often don't is unchanged

[thin ibex]

incidentally they did real bad internally balancing the arty team for the guard

[cinder wraith]

HH literally allows you to have Dreadnought Characters as characters in a dreadnought oriented detachment focused list

[jaunty dawn]

i just happen to prefer a world where its optimal to take everything instead of take nothing

[cinder wraith]

and im using it for world eaters because that sounds fun

[thin ibex]

I can do that with space wolves to be fair

[jaunty dawn]

i think vanilla hh just lets you take one dread in the dread army that is busted

[cinder wraith]

HH2.0

[jaunty dawn]

panoptica has dread centurions though

one dread character I mean

in march of the ancients

[cinder wraith]

levis, doritos and contemptors alongside ironclads

yeah

im thinking of playing HH again cause i miss HH

[floral herald]

I think this is usually how wargear options have been balanced when there’s multiple options

[thin ibex]

but yeah i think i like it better when i can look at a set of options, say melee weapons, and feel like im picking amongst meaningful options. Do I want more attacks with the chainsword to scythe through chaff/synergize with a weapon tag i get from a squad i joined? Do I want a power sword to cut down better armored infantry? Do I want a power fist to bust elites? Rather than a: The chainsword is the worst, the power sword exists, but better to just take the fist or hammer, though generally the fist.

Is the game there yet? Not entirely, the external meta kinda dictates the fist anyway, but the point is I like them balanced against each other

[floral herald]

The “take or do not take” ones are different

[jaunty dawn]

it depends

uhh

[thin ibex]

a big one thats common is i wish the bolt pistol was actually balanced against the plasma pistol lol

[jaunty dawn]

like leman russ sponsons are the negative example; they should just be mandatory if they're not gonna give them a trade off

[thin ibex]

definitely

[jaunty dawn]

but there are some units were taking wargear replaces a different special ability or whatever

[thin ibex]

yeah they should just come on the tank datacard if not having them is a flat negative

[floral herald]

At least for squad sergeants I think it kinda was

It’s a waste of 10 pts for squads you don’t expect to have shooting within 12” and good otherwise basically

Or 15 I can’t remember

[bright dove]

Just like me with CSM, except I ran all autocannons

[thin ibex]

well really what i was meaning was balanced against each other via stats rather than cost

i think the heavy bolt pistol does this a bit better by outranging the plasma decently well

[floral herald]

I guess lore wise I kinda don’t think they should

Since plasma weapons are superior relics but you just might not have one

[thin ibex]

wouldnt a better way to show that would be to limit how many can be in an army and just make them gnarlier?

[floral herald]

I had a similar thought yeah

[modest meadow]

Eh, then you'd have other factions knee jerk bitching about it from the vocal minority

[floral herald]

Costed wargear but with a army-wide limit

[modest meadow]

or possibly the vocal minority bitching about it from their own faction

They're kinda screwed either which approach from my view

[thin ibex]

was thinking in my head about like... say titus from the space marine fame, theres no doubt he has access to a power sword or a plasma pistol, but he elects to the chainsword and heavy bolt pisotl

there seems ot be some kind of logic to the choice in a veterans mind

[modest meadow]

Pure favoritism

as with any warrior

you begin to have a personal preference

[thin ibex]

rogal dorn used a chainsword, mans was a pragmatist

[floral herald]

Like IDK 10% of army points as a max

[floral herald]

No he had a super chainsword made of dragon teeth haha

[thin ibex]

but still a chainsword 😛

[bright dove]

Titus doesn't care about the armor piercing of a power sword because he's cleaving through hordes

[floral herald]

Yeah there’s just a trend of heresy era Super Chain Weapons made from exotic materials

Usually teeth

Storm’s Teeth, the Gore-Family, etc

[thin ibex]

space wolves and their frost weapons

[solemn gull]

Most of the time when points were a thing I kept my units cheap and went all in on a lynchpin vehicle with all the bells and whistles

[floral herald]

That seems like it could be interesting for me because it means you could really punch up wargear some

[thin ibex]

i agree actually

[desert jay]

I've seen jokes/comments that the "tradeoff" is footprint and maneuverability around terrain XD

[modest meadow]

Cough <mutalith Vortex Beast

but well, TSons is a cheat in that case as

[desert jay]

The Mutalith is so cool

[floral herald]

make sponsonless Russes AV13 on the sides

[modest meadow]

your standard is pretty damn good

[desert jay]

On the flip side I hate the "get as many cabal points as you can" army design

[modest meadow]

oh bruh same

[floral herald]

This is sorta what I did but my splurge unit was a big squad of Optimized Nobz

[modest meadow]

we were already a char heavy faction, do not incentivise it MORE

[floral herald]

I didn’t do bikers but I did run 5e Nob Cheese

[modest meadow]

people already bring like snipers and char assassins to a TS match

[jagged dawn]

Not sure if this is the same thing but we’ve noticed especially with space marines that GW likes to make kits that are difficult to build “wrong”

Especially if it’s in a combat patrol

[thin ibex]

kinda makes sense as the most common entry level faction i suppose

[jaunty dawn]

Yup

[cinder wraith]

made a list

funny 2k world eaters dreadnought list

[modest meadow]

thats

alot of dreads

[jagged dawn]

Also random funny side note. Google apparently decided to show us a listing for the old SM box with the uh…the marines with those weird fucking “gun+rocket launcher” weapons

[floral herald]

That’s a good policy I think yeah

[jagged dawn]

Can’t remember their name

[floral herald]

It’s very frustrating to make stuff wrong with early boxes

[jagged dawn]

https://preview.redd.it/when-did-the-orks-start-arming-space-marines-these-weapons-v0-47ja651f8jea1.png?auto=webp&s=4333d57bc856a68d45a4c663729e4bf325aa885e

[tranquil ivy]

Just had a game

I had barely any anti-vehicle units

However i DID last 2 rounds against a tank

The fifth battle round was...

Interesting

A single intercessor vs 3 tanks

He didnt survive but hey. 61-63

[jagged dawn]

Indeed yeah

[floral herald]

I like these pov level shots

[floral herald]

I don’t like to think about the feed that much but it’s a belt for the revolving micro missile launcher

I think the normal ones are ok but the sergeant having a Huge Ass Super Krak Missile for some reason is funny

[jagged dawn]

The image was the best we could find because we can’t remember what the kit is called and it’s impossible to find on the GW website

Ah, thank you

[floral herald]

That shit goes on a fortress dude! What are you doing

[jagged dawn]

A shoulder launcher would have made them look so much less goofy

[mental birch]

This name

Still annoys me

Intercessor

Inceptor

Invictor

Redemptor

Eliminator, Aggressor

[thin ibex]

you can't field em as mixed load can you?

[mental birch]

My pattern brain says yes clearly the name will end with or

[floral herald]

Yeah it’s weird how it’s not Desolator

[thin ibex]

cant go like 1 superfrag and 4 superkrak?

[jaunty dawn]

they are a very elaborate prank

[jagged dawn]

We’ve literally never seen a box of them irl

[thin ibex]

its a damn shame that superkraks and superfrags that they use arent used anywhere else in the space marines; the ones on the bunker are statted different i think

[mental birch]

My pattern brain hates it so much

[floral herald]

I think you can

[solemn gull]

Saw one in a dumpster once

[thin ibex]

im surprised points cost never went down from 200

i feel like you could safely drop them to 180 with their squad limit at 5

or like 170

[floral herald]

I think it’ll be a while yet before GW stops oppressing Indirect

[jagged dawn]

Quick side note, we hate the changes made to acolyte hybrid squads

Mainly because the ones we have were built prior to the split

And are thus not actually allowed under the current rules because they all have hand flamers + demo charges and a heavy mining tool

[modest meadow]

It's the Magazine belts lol

[tranquil ivy]

One more for you lol

Oh frick i missed the ping

My bad

[floral herald]

No worries

Close game too

[tranquil ivy]

Yup. Considering i had little to no anti-vehicle units it was a lot closer than I expected

[bright dove]

https://www.vxtiktok.com/t/ZP8YR68da/

[tranquil ivy]

FOR THE GLORY OF ULTRAMAR I MUST BUY MILK.

[tranquil ivy]

This is literally the only death guard i plan on painting

But who cares

Its cool lookin'

And yes, i coulda done much better on the paint job but im lazy

[jaunty dawn]

it looks good!

[tranquil ivy]

Now i just need a dead blood angel

[solemn gull]

now that guy looks cool as hell

[tranquil ivy]

Horus Heresy Death Guard just looks nice :]

[brittle salmon]

Giving you fair warning now, it's a funny list but you're gonna find very few people to play against you - Dreads in 30k are very powerful to the point where most HH scenes gentleman's agreement a limit of 1 dread per 1k points

[cinder wraith]

tbh the scene here is abit dead because no one has the time for it

but i do want to play a full game of dreads against my gf's custodes

so thank you for telling me this rn c:

[brittle salmon]

You win that game lol

[paper bluff]

Are you saying 2 telemon dreads in a 30k game would be unsportimg?

[brittle salmon]

Funnily enough, not really? Telemons don't even have Brutal on their melee

[paper bluff]

How about the dreadspear one?

[brittle salmon]

Yeah that one is nasty

As is the sword and board one

[paper bluff]

So don't run one in a 30k custodes list with valdor?

[brittle salmon]

I mean, it all depends on who you're facing, right? And the rule is generally 1 dreadnought per 1000 points of your list

So you can run them

Just don't go overboard

[paper bluff]

Well I have 3 regular contemptor dreads, 1 telemon, plus a dreadspear and another telemon in the mail

Why do I have 3 regular? You may ask, well I bought some ones army

And he had 2

[brittle salmon]

Neat

[thin ibex]

Honestly didn't even know custodes were in 30k

[paper bluff]

Most of their interning stuff come from 30k

[jaunty dawn]

so does their basic unit technically

debuted in one of hh box sets

[paper bluff]

The grav tanks, the unique dreadnought, their flame throwers, ships, the jump pack units

[paper bluff]

Yep I bought that one lol

[junior summit]

yeah dreads are...remarkable in HH

[junior summit]

Avoiding plasma pistol explosions maybe

but also IRL soldiers have a tendency to stick with what works unless theres really dramatic improvements (and even then)

[modest meadow]

Although I do think y'all might be reading too far into it personally

as it's probably just that the chainsword and bolt pistol are just the 'starter equipment' and also just the most iconic 40k weapons

[junior summit]

Cain running a laspistol over a bolt pistol is permanently stuck in my mind

[sour sequoia]

custodes only exist in 40k because of a lot of hypetrain begging from 30k lol

it took a complete rewrite to make it not dumb as hell they're leaving Terra

[junior summit]

custodes do appeal to me from a gameplay perspective

[upper canopy]

Custodes just tire me

[rocky shale]

Custodes would be cool if half the range wasn't $300 resin bricks

[runic swallow]

I mean, it being significantly more portable and like 10X the ammo capacity is a pretty good reason

[mild glen]

He also, canonically, prefers the increased accuracy

[brittle salmon]

It's also tremendously more reliable in the field

Which I think he also mentions at some point

[runic swallow]

Basically no moving parts will do that

[paper bluff]

Hey now. 2 of them are $500+ resin bricks

[floral herald]

A bolt pistol looks like it has such awful ergonomics haha

[jaunty dawn]

Tbf all pistols in 40k are ridiculous

[paper bluff]

Except maybe some how like the browning, the 1911 makes it there as a stubber

[runic swallow]

The Laspistol is probably just a lighter C96 as ergonomics go

And yeah there’s more normal pistols in stuff like Necromunda or the TTRPGs

But the bolt pistol just has to be the worst, gotta be like 8lbs or some shit and just a block of a thing

Hilariously bad ergonomics

[jaunty dawn]

its c96 shaped but its like

twice the size

and like heroic proportions are on thing but its pretty consistent in other depictions too

as in non model

[runic swallow]

I’d assume it’s probably really lightweight, but yeah it’s huge

Also, GW, where is my stocked Laspistol, make the C96 look complete

[desert jay]

Yeah it's funny that the plastic half of the range has a rep for being the cheapest 40k army, and then the FW half of the range pushes up in into the same cost/point tier as AdMech

[pastel rampart]

It's why 3D printing Custodes is as popular as it is.

[junior summit]

honestly I think people in the imperium are just really jacked

corpse starch is 5% corpse protein and 95% algae protein

[runic swallow]

I feel like you’re either jacked or stick thin, no in-between

[desert jay]

named starch
no carbs

[quaint compass]

Soylent Green
No soy nor lentils

[junior summit]

counterpoint: glutinous rice

[thin ibex]

i know custodes have a lot of forgeworld stuff

but like

i feel like you can build a decent army with just the plastic

i think its kind of misleading to imply one must buy forgeworld

[floral herald]

Chaos cultists sure are

[thin ibex]

for years catachans showed us that you don't need genemods to get strength 4, you just needed to pump iron

im honestly surprised how often imperial citizens are absolutely yoked considering how many of them are hella oppressed

[modest meadow]

I presume its just the natural darwinism

that or Corpse Starch has steroids mixed in

[past sphinx]

Taking a crack at city fight camo, ain't quite got it dialed in yet

[tranquil ivy]

mfw im putting more effort into the base than I am the mini itself

[tired cairn]

Well, the base appears to have a mini

[tranquil ivy]

I mean

Ded guy lmao

[tired cairn]

Yeah, you have to paint a whole extra mini for your base. So of course it requires more work

[unreal cosmos]

I really like it

the primary-color Blue is a good vibe

[solemn gull]

It’s a very strong blue will you darken or desaturate it?

[upper canopy]

Quick

Does anyone know if the Tau combat patrol for 168 is good value

And the sisters patrol

[thin ibex]

which tau combat patrol

[upper canopy]

Uh

It has a Commander a devilfish a breacher and a pathfinder

[thin ibex]

168 us? i think thats expensive

amazon gets it 138

unless its 168 for both

[upper canopy]

Nah

Just for the Tau

[jaunty dawn]

yeah that sounds bad

[tardy vault]

that's MSRP

for combat patrol

never buy at MSRP

[upper canopy]

It's my lcgs

[thin ibex]

yeah 168 is the standard store price, one sec

232.5

saves you about 60 bucks compared to buying those things seperately

[rocky shale]

Just scored a bag of random nurgling from the game store swap meet

[rocky shale]

That's just msrp. It's cheaper than buying all the individual parts if you wanted them

[runic swallow]

Congrats on your stinky, silly lil guys

[solemn gull]

Damn the last games store in my city is shutting down for good at the end of the year. I think I need to learn 10th to play a tournament before it’s too late

[sour sequoia]

Baby’s first 40k win today

Canoptek Court into Custodes, Shield Host

I’ll post list in a sec, drivin home

[sour sequoia]

Necrons
Canoptek Court
Strike Force (2000 Points)

CHARACTERS

C’tan Shard of the Nightbringer (305 Points)
  • 1x Gaze of death
  • 1x Scythe of the Nightbringer

Illuminor Szeras (175 Points)
  • Warlord
  • 1x Eldritch Lance
  • 1x Impaling legs

Imotekh the Stormlord (100 Points)
  • 1x Gauntlet of Fire
  • 1x Staff of the Destroyer

Plasmancer (60 Points)
  • 1x Plasmic lance

Plasmancer (60 Points)
  • 1x Plasmic lance

Technomancer (100 Points)
  • 1x Staff of light
  • Enhancements: Hyperphasic Fulcrum

BATTLELINE

Immortals (150 Points)
  • 10x Immortal
     ◦ 10x Close combat weapon
     ◦ 10x Gauss blaster

Immortals (150 Points)
  • 10x Immortal
     ◦ 10x Close combat weapon
     ◦ 10x Tesla carbine

OTHER DATASHEETS

Canoptek Doomstalker (145 Points)
  • 1x Doomsday blaster
  • 1x Doomstalker limbs
  • 1x Twin gauss flayer

Canoptek Doomstalker (145 Points)
  • 1x Doomsday blaster
  • 1x Doomstalker limbs
  • 1x Twin gauss flayer

Canoptek Doomstalker (145 Points)
  • 1x Doomsday blaster
  • 1x Doomstalker limbs
  • 1x Twin gauss flayer

Canoptek Scarab Swarms (80 Points)
  • 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
     ◦ 6x Feeder mandibles

Canoptek Scarab Swarms (80 Points)
  • 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
     ◦ 6x Feeder mandibles

Canoptek Spyders (75 Points)
  • 1x Automaton claws
  • 1x Fabricator Claw Array (Aura)
  • 1x Gloom Prism (Aura)
  • 2x Particle beamer

Canoptek Wraiths (230 Points)
  • 6x Canoptek Wraith
     ◦ 6x Particle caster
     ◦ 6x Vicious claws```

[thin ibex]

I'm liking the volume of scarab

[quaint compass]

Looks like you had a few bugs in battlescribe

[sour sequoia]

Scarabs are good rn tbh

What if your dogshit screening unit has OC and also anti-tank mines

They screened 5 custodes guard + their captain, and the second walled off a Dreadnought for 3 rounds and dealt half its health in mortals

Teslas getting AP from Szeras also starts to punch way above weight level here

Full hit rerolls in power matrix, reroll 1s to wound or full wound rerolls against units on objective