Warhammer and Such

[pulsar cairn]

i like characters that feel human

[meager quail]

Possibly the Rogue Trader gets this by having it stolen from a still-living person

[paper bluff]

You might like the twice dead king books

Tbh the necron books are great

[pulsar cairn]

I did hear about that!

[paper bluff]

There's a case to be made that twice dead king is a book that delves into body dsymorphia

[finite compass]

https://tenor.com/view/ciaphas-cain-warhammer40k-gif-24974202

[tired cairn]

Wait, what?

[meager quail]

Impacted ones, I mean

[tired cairn]

Oh, yeah those suck

[meager quail]

If your jaw has enough room for them, no problem

But if they're impacted, first they hurt, and then they (cw: gruesome) ||turn into cysts in your jaw and often eventually turn cancerous||

Typically the long term end result of not getting impacted ones out is death

[faint galleon]

i think in some of the worst places to live (eg Holy Terra) the average worker might be expected to die of something unrelated before impacted teeth become lethal

[ebon forge]

Not me forgetting basic formation in every fight in Total War Warhammer and getting destroyed

[pulsar cairn]

Arbites are better equipped than a guardsman

But my question is

[bright dove]

Define better equipped.

One gets a lot more tanks than the other.

[pulsar cairn]

I meant the average guardsman

Like your regular trooper

Is that how i spell "trooper"?)

[bright dove]

It is

[meager quail]

I think it also depends on situation

Like, an Arbites is less of a warfighter

Usually

[pulsar cairn]

Yeah thats where i was getting

I imagine that even tho they may carry a bigger gun, they probably arent all that effective when a planet they are in is being invaded

[meager quail]

They may not even carry a bigger gun, depending on what guard regiment they're being compared to

[pulsar cairn]

true

karskin troops carry BIG guns

that's not a regiment but u get what i mean

[paper bluff]

The scale is different

[pulsar cairn]

that's why i was thinking more of individual guardsman rather than whole regiments

[paper bluff]

The arbites is a big organization but the size of the gaurd is unfathomable

[pulsar cairn]

Beeg

[finite compass]

Arbites are more like Tempestus Scions in numbers and equipment

[paper bluff]

Arbites

[finite compass]

But they're more equipped for crowd suppression or insurrection rather than a pitched battle

They're a SWAT Team rather than a special forces group

[paper bluff]

Well judge dredd

[finite compass]

Yep Judges.

Except Arbites are specifically about enforcement of Imperial laws rather than local

[pulsar cairn]

do they also go to the schola? i imagine not right?

[finite compass]

Arbites are Schola Progenium trained, yes

[pulsar cairn]

oh cool

[finite compass]

Enforcers aren't

[pulsar cairn]

are the enforcers responsible for local law?

[finite compass]

And Enforcers are anything from Dan Abnett style cops except in space, to Necromunda indoctrinated since childhood to serve House Helmawr, and deal with any offense or irritation by summary execution.

Yes, they are

[silk verge]

imagine going to super college your whole life to be a cop and the prison you’re stationed with gets invaded by the fucking night lords

lmao

[pulsar cairn]

they gonna teach you a thing or two about torture

[silk verge]

red tithe has been a very funny book so far

[pulsar cairn]

what is it about?

[floral herald]

FWIW arbites do get tanks and such

[pulsar cairn]

FWIW? what does that mean?

[floral herald]

One of their missions is to defeat PDF forces for long enough to call for help via astropath

[silk verge]

prison mining world gets invaded by night lords and then carcharodons also show up

[finite compass]

Arbites get Rhinos and Repressors

[floral herald]

For what it’s worth

[pulsar cairn]

oooh right

[floral herald]

Talking about lore not data sheet lists

[finite compass]

This is also why their precincts are literal fortresses

Because they're often the last bastion of Imperial resistance on a world

Notably the Arbites version of the Repressor is typically fitted with 'non-lethal' weaponry

Of water cannons and grenade launchers

[pulsar cairn]

tear gas or whatever the 40k equivalent is?

[finite compass]

Yes

Or flash

Or whatever

[pulsar cairn]

neat

i say neat but probably wouldnt want to be anywhere near that

[finite compass]

Especially since Arbites tend to be along the lines of "We arrested you for suspicious activity, but you're going to die in the holding cell we put you in of old age because it just takes that fucking long to work through our backlog."

[pulsar cairn]

classic imperium

imagine they just get to you once ur 89 years old and are like

"yo we realized we got the wrong guy, ur free to go"

[tardy vault]

Or the IG show up looking for more bodies and you end up fast track convicted and into the penal legion

Or similar thing happens except it's the Mechanicus making Servitors

[paper bluff]

Ah I remember that one. One of the first carcharodons books

[solemn gull]

of course it's 40k where the police get tanks and bazookas

[finite compass]

And homing bullets

[uneven ember]

Remember: Goliaths are a thing!
Just because someone is fuckhuge doesn't make them Astartes or Custodes

[solemn gull]

Post the Zerker

[solemn gull]

oh yeah

[pulsar cairn]

beeg

[uneven ember]

(Liver King 40,000)

[thin ibex]

Arbites precincts are also fortresses, specifically intended to withstand siege from their jurisdiction

I generally think of arbites as like the fed instead of local law

[pulsar cairn]

i imagine they are good at defending shit then

[thin ibex]

I think if I compare them to the guard, they trend to having better armor, on average better training for urban combat, and are more disciplined. This is mostly because their expected theatres of combat are known quantities. The guardsmen is expected to be in more places and their gear reflects it

[runic swallow]

I think tanks aren’t exactly the right equivalence to make, it’s Special Forces advisors to a secondary force.

Also, tanks work with infantry all the time, they’re not always doing armored cav spearhead stuff

[meager quail]

Arbites are the embodiment of "the police are an occupying army"

[pulsar cairn]

that also makes sense

i could do a better job than an arbites

[meager quail]

However they're an occupying army, not an army about to fight an actual war

[jaunty dawn]

mm. same endpoint as judge dredd in terms of militarisation

[meager quail]

Yes.

[jaunty dawn]

but not subsumption of the state

[meager quail]

At least not in Imperium terms

[bright dove]

As ever, the Imperium loves having boots on the ground for one reason and one reason only: Taxes.

[floral herald]

This isn’t really the doctrine outside of some stuff with mechanized infantry (which is essentially trying to make infantry who can keep up with tanks)

[jaunty dawn]

(which now that I think of it, that part of it is good satire, the problem is that the actual comic is about how awesome they would be)

[floral herald]

At least for the USMC tanks should be used for their mixture of durability mobility and direct firepower

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

[floral herald]

Massed aggressively and used in a mobile fashion not stuck trudging with an infantry platoon

[runic swallow]

Generally yeah, but I’m saying that a tank isn’t the right comparison mostly

[jaunty dawn]

usually if individual tanks are deployed assigned to specific infantry squads, those tanks are organisationally part of a squad together rather than organic to that squad

[floral herald]

Space marines are kind of similar to tanks, the highly mobile, highly durable, and have a lot of firepower

[runic swallow]

They’re still using man-portable or at most crew served weapon systems, and they are only fast in terms of human running speed, I think the comparison is off

[uneven ember]

Which, of course, makes sense, because the Arbites existed to give players something to do with their Judge Dredd minis

[runic swallow]

The armor is mostly agree on

[jaunty dawn]

space mariens are a secret third thing

[floral herald]

They’re comparable to tanks in speed actually 40-60 mph

[bright dove]

Space Marines are artillery aimed biological weapons. 😛

Artillery being Drop Pods in this case.

You just sorta fire them in and wait.

[jaunty dawn]

cause nothing in our world is that durable, while as fast as infantry and being capable of wielding hmg-equivalent systems portably

[runic swallow]

Space Marine speed has been wildly inconsistent and never clear if it’s short bursts or long durations

[jaunty dawn]

yeah the sprinting thing is weird

[floral herald]

And that’s before the strategic air mobility yeah from Thawks and drop pods and such yeah

[jaunty dawn]

partially cause they never really need to use it, if they're going a distance where sprinting is necessary they're probably rhino borne

[runic swallow]

Again, I think they’re best described as Super Special Forces

[jaunty dawn]

but infantry are unmatched in their own element

yeah, kinda, but also not

[bright dove]

You know what this makes me miss out of all things? Cities of Death.

[runic swallow]

And I was mostly leaning on the aspect of how special forces often work as force multipliers and advisors to local units, they also do stuff entirely within their own command chain

[floral herald]

It’s just a lore-gameplay mismatch

[jaunty dawn]

cause of also being the secret third thing

I think it's also a lore-lore mismatch xP

[floral herald]

Space marines are just way faster in the lore than any of the games except maybe Boltgun

[bright dove]

Good ole Transhuman Dread.

[floral herald]

Yeah but that’s not how space marines work :p

[runic swallow]

Right but I’m saying it’s never been consistent how fast they are other than faster than people

[floral herald]

They’re an independent fighting force that does its own combined arms

[bright dove]

Can we think of a fight that only Space Marines have shown up for?

[floral herald]

Maybe comparable to like Russian VDV? They’re quasi-special forces

[bright dove]

Generally they're getting there after the Guard.

[jaunty dawn]

the thing abt special forces being advisors etc is that they do that because in terms of individual operatives, the investment there is in their training

the investment in materiel for special forces is externalised into their support systems

[runic swallow]

Yes, and my argument was that they’d be better used as something integrated into a wider command structure not their own little thing

[jaunty dawn]

while individual combat operatives may do advisory, that's because they don't take up a scout car for each one you send there

a space marine is both the training and the scout car

[floral herald]

I mean if you just need someone who can recall fire tables or whatever you can just slap an MIU in a normal person

[bright dove]

Also yeah, Space is Big is in play here I think.

[jaunty dawn]

you can't separate the training of a space marine from the materiel

[runic swallow]

I wasn’t meaning just that, I was meaning in an overall command sense as well

[jaunty dawn]

(as is, several space marine forces do specialise in exactly what you describe; namely, alpha legion and white consuls)

[uneven ember]

yeah but the IoM is bad at things

[floral herald]

Yeah there’s a number, the low hanging fruit is Wormwood I think

[floral herald]

I don’t see what you mean

[bright dove]

Not familiar with Wormwood!

[jaunty dawn]

at the end of the day a named commissar is gonna be as good or better at war than a named space marine in a story about how guard are cool

as opposed to how marines take a shit on guard

[floral herald]

Dark Angels vs Black Legion+Vashtorr

[bright dove]

cut to Ciaphas Cain dueling a Khorne Berserker

[jaunty dawn]

n I say commissar because they're advisors as much as political officers

[bright dove]

Ah, yeah, that'd do it.

[runic swallow]

I mean that having space marines just show up as a battalion sized element and only be on a very limited area of the battlefield compared to usually spreading them out and only really focusing the forces when there’s a use for it

[floral herald]

What I’m saying is that splitting space marines up as a force multiplier is a waste of their capabilities

[jaunty dawn]

and a space marine unless they're being glazed just isn't gonna be as effective at using the resources imperial guard have

when space marine tactics is built around pretty much always having what you need, cause you're the space marines

[bright dove]

But yeah, Space Marine as Combt Advisor is something I've seen in Storm of Iron.

[floral herald]

The comparison with tanks is specifically for the purposes of how splitting up tanks as infantry support a la France in early WW2 was abandoned

[runic swallow]

I should clarify I was also talking about IW particularly in this

[floral herald]

New Tau book also explores that

[bright dove]

Nice.

[runic swallow]

And yeah, like in Storm of Iron

[jaunty dawn]

my caveats about glazing etc are because in the 40k universe most media treats them as the best thing in the universe which isn't really inherent to space marines themselves?

[bright dove]

I will once again take this opportunity to say "Hey, Storm of Iron is pretty neat"

[runic swallow]

But even then, I think it’s kinda dumb to go “oh yeah, we have just 1000 super dudes, let’s put them all on a one mile front on a continental battlefield

[jaunty dawn]

like it's hard to separate the capabilities of a space marine from the capabilities of a main character when they're almost always a main character

[runic swallow]

Like, you might be better splitting them into squads or companies instead and having them help with breakthroughs at many points

[jaunty dawn]

fwiw you usually have like a 100 marines in an engagement

[floral herald]

Tbf that 1 mile is ideally like “the hostile supreme command bunker” but yeah it’s kinda silly when space marines just have static small AORs

[jaunty dawn]

chapters rarely attack in force

[floral herald]

Like bro what are you patrolling so hard

[bright dove]

Well, 40k has planets as the battleground. We usually see Space Marines hitting important things hard

[floral herald]

Yeah 50-300 is a “normal” deployment

[jaunty dawn]

so it's then how many marines can you take from that 100 before it ceases to be an effective self contained force capable of achieving things

[runic swallow]

Depends on the lore tbh

[jaunty dawn]

without wasting the spaceships and vehicles organic to them

[runic swallow]

Which is probably why this whole discussion is kinda silly

[floral herald]

Full chapter deployments are consistently rare in the lore but they’re also what gets written about I think

[bright dove]

Eh, I think my samples for that are weird.

Like, Space Marine homeworlds getting attacked

Armageddon.

The big things.

Most of the books I've read are smaller scale.

[floral herald]

Like they don’t happen very often but something like a random battle where the Novamarines 4th Demi-company shows up and slaughters a whole rebellion and then leaves with 51 guys maybe gets a timeline entry

[runic swallow]

Sorry if I got wires crossed earlier, I shoulda been more clear I was talking specifically about stuff in the way Iron Warriors stuff tends to go, especially as they tend to act as officers a lot more

[bright dove]

Or with chapters that are extremely below capacity, like the Soul Drinkers.

[jaunty dawn]

I think it's pretty suitable for iron warriors, yeah

[runic swallow]

And sending one marine with a platoon on a raid is one hell of a modifier, especially when he has command authority to widen the attack if it really starts to bite in

[bright dove]

Oh yeah, Iron Warriors do things very differently than other Space Marines in general.

[jaunty dawn]

I think there's just significant drawbacks to doing so that explain why it's not the norm

[runic swallow]

And that’s when you actually concentrate

[bright dove]

Because the IW want to siege.

And that's a bad use of normal Space Marine resources.

[jaunty dawn]

and also those drawbacks kinda shift in the case of csm, where access to tanks etc isn't a guarantee

[runic swallow]

Well, less want and more get sent to do

They also do armored warfare stuff tbf

[jaunty dawn]

yeah but for like

[floral herald]

Tbf if it’s a platoon scale raid you can just skip the 2 dozen APL cheerleaders have have the space marine go alone :p

[jaunty dawn]

individual warbands etc

[bright dove]

Now I have a bit of curiosity.

[runic swallow]

Platoon was probably the wrong size to say, I’ll admit

But you get my point

[bright dove]

I want to see how many points it takes to get a group of 100 or so marines in gameplay

And then look at other armies in that point range for comparison.

[floral herald]

I see your point but I don’t agree - I think tethering space marines to much slower less effective troops would make them much less effective more than it makes others more effective

[bright dove]

Agreed there. The Guard is there to hold ground.

Space Marines generally are there to take it.

[runic swallow]

Well, no, they do plenty of taking too lol

[upper canopy]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/28uyjr/how_many_points_is_a_whole_space_marine_company/?rdt=43450

This is super outdated

[finite compass]

Ciaphas Cain has an ace in the hole in any matchup though

And that ace is "Jurgen with a Melta"

[floral herald]

Back when I last did it a battle company was I think about 2500 pts?

[bright dove]

Ok, a 2.5k army is understandable.

[upper canopy]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/13e90yw/how_many_points_is_a_full_space_marine_company/

This is recenter

Yeah 2-2.5k

[bright dove]

I'll err on the side of more points.

That's a good chunk of points is what that is.

[runic swallow]

I guess I could easily see a space marine or squad of them acting as the tip of the spear followed by regular infantry securing and mopping up stuff, I don’t think small deployment of space marines on an infantry level is a bad concept

[uneven ember]

Except for some weird ones (Minotaurs, IIRC, always deploy chapter strength)

[runic swallow]

And again, the lore is super inconsistent on just how fast or durable a marine is so it’s very hard to say where they’d work best

I personally think the whole “run 50mph for a day” stuff is too dumb to take seriously

[jaunty dawn]

I think its just impossible to make running really fast something that looks cool

or not really fast in general

just a breaking point, relative to stride

[runic swallow]

I can suspend my disbelief but only so far, yeah

[uneven ember]

If I were deciding, I'd have it something like "run as fast as a really fast runner, but they just never get tired" kind of thing

[jaunty dawn]

(I think this might also be just physically true? due to diminishing returns from air resistance?)

[uneven ember]

as opposed to the actually superhuman

[jaunty dawn]

(like a sprint that fast wouldn't even look like running, it would look like moon jumping sped up)

[floral herald]

I agree yeah

[floral herald]

The hard cap on running speed is from friction force with the ground

[jaunty dawn]

there's a speed limit for something recognisable as a sprint

[floral herald]

Past a certain point you can't kick off the ground hard enough to go any faster

[runic swallow]

At a certain point you’re doing weird bouncing

[jaunty dawn]

which is also why the flash is so easy to make look dumb

[floral herald]

So space marines being really heavy with real grippy boots means they theoretically should be very fast

[runic swallow]

There’s a reason he’s always made to be super blurry lol

[jaunty dawn]

I think them being surprisingly fast is good

but too fast and you also stop selling their weight

[runic swallow]

I do too, but more in a “that’s a big man running very fast” sense

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

wearing a concrete bunker

[runic swallow]

Basically I think if you’re more on the “big man running concerningly fast for how big he is” level then I don’t think you risk outpacing infantry like you do with say, a tank going flat out

[jaunty dawn]

risk, no, but they would still be holding the marines back

in endurance most of all

(but endurance is another one of those things that the wargame doesn't give a single toss about)

[runic swallow]

Sure, but that’s likely mitigated by just combat slowing you down, you aren’t just running the whole time

I think Space Marines could be the infantry equivalent of tanks in that you use them to bust through tough points, but they’re also not as fast as tanks and would be best supported by normal troops filling in behind them to hold and widen the hole they punched

[uneven ember]

I have had some former military nerds talk about how in an actual gene-engineered supersoldier, fatigue resistance would be more useful than any amount of super strength or whatnot

[runic swallow]

Basically strategic level tank and infantry operations on a infantry tactical level

[runic swallow]

That and the whole not sleeping thing

[paper bluff]

What's funny is that goliaths are human so in theory you might be able to space marine them

[floral herald]

I think the biggest 2 would be resistance to fatigue and resistance to boredom

[runic swallow]

I feel like you just turn into the human equivalent of HGH gut if you do that

[runic swallow]

Yeah attention span would be big

[floral herald]

Also I am distracted by Far Field launching but I agree that space marines work best as a part of a larger combined force

[uneven ember]

all of which Space Marines have!
"resistance to boredom" being more a brainwashed fanatic thing but still

[floral herald]

But I think the scale of the operations is bigger

[runic swallow]

I’m saying that I think it would work on both in a way it doesn’t with tanks, basically

[floral herald]

EG you have space marine deploy in reinforced company strength at most and then have slower moving mortal troops come in at BN or regiment level

[paper bluff]

We forget the SM are also basically warrior monks

[runic swallow]

Also it gets weird once you throw in vehicles cause SM vehicles aren’t notably faster than guard vehicles

[paper bluff]

So meditation is part of the MO

[floral herald]

Yeah lets ignore that part

[runic swallow]

Like, I absolutely think that would be a very good use, but I also think that it’d work out pretty well on a smaller level

[floral herald]

Though the biggest thing for space marines is that they're 100% airmobile except for like the Astraeus of smth

And that's just because the imperium forgor how to make Stormbirds

[runic swallow]

I mean at least SM tankers don’t OD on speed pills to stay up for a week straight of operations

[floral herald]

Yeah they just have the OD'd on speed pills implant for that

(Catalepsean Node)

[runic swallow]

Turns out the Horus heresy was a organization wide friendly fire incident brought on by staying awake for the Great Crusade

[pastel rampart]

Except Blood Angel vehicles because they fill the gas tanks with a horrid mix of Monster energy and caffeine pills.

[floral herald]

The Blood Angels are artisans and that includes hot-rodding I guess

[runic swallow]

…so the blood of an average military convoy driver

[pastel rampart]

S'where they got the "blood" part of their name.

I do find it weird how only BA got the turbocharged engines and not like...White Scars.

[jaunty dawn]

white scars suffer a lot from not getting their speed n bikes specialty until after the big chapters had defined armouries etc

despite the name itself being fairly old

[floral herald]

Yeah I think its partially just Blood Angels being one of the first chapters to ever get a hat

[jaunty dawn]

mhm

[paper bluff]

Well now I can't help but think about a hick blood angel

[upper canopy]

https://tenor.com/view/running-barry-allen-the-flash-ezra-miller-the-flash-movie-gif-6124209952182402217

I had ta

[jaunty dawn]

yeah. yeah

[cloud flicker]

https://tenor.com/view/open-world-flash-open-world-flash-game-video-game-gif-27531721

[pastel rampart]

Tom Walker at the end of his GTA4 playthrough.

[topaz hinge]

Tom Runner, clearly

[dense sedge]

tom walker's gta fast car playthrough has been great

[ebon forge]

https://fxtwitter.com/Blurbstv/status/1854590427024048422 remind me of this

[cloud flicker]

I love those sorts of mods.

[ebon forge]

• Completely not falling for Chaos guys, trust me

[balmy wave]

It actually depends on the company

And importantly, the only characters you technically get are a captain, company command, and 2 lieutenants

Beyond that, it's just 100 Battle-brothers - that is to say, basic squads of marines

Either infantry or cavalry

No vehicles

Vehicles and specialist roles are the purview of specific chapter chambers, such as the forge, the librarius, etc.

The most expensive company is almost definitely the First, considering that's vets and termies

The Tenth is likely gonna be the cheapest, being scouts and vanguard marines

[pastel rampart]

Depends both on the company and the chapter, is the thing.

http://puu.sh/KigRo/5dd964ddc0.jpg

If we go with UM as the "basic" marine (which I think is fair), they get transport vehicles of an unspecificed amount but probably safe to assume one transport per squad; they also get dreadnoughts, again unspecified in number but definitely a "vehicle" of a sort.

http://puu.sh/KigRx/7891c8d1d2.png

Now, if we go with Blood Angels it's much the same but 1) no listed transport vehicles, and 2) specified number of dreads.

Most other chapters list transport vehicles under the list of what is in a company but BA are a weird exception in that it isn't--and also isn't listed in their armoury, unlike other chapters. I assume this is just an oversight either on GWs part of Lexicanums part, but given that the latter is pretty decent about fact-checking stuff I'm thinking this is a GW oversight.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Armoury#Deployment

Though each Company within the Chapter maintains their own store of light vehicles, such as Rhinos and Land Speeders, heavy armour is kept within the Armoury's motor pool and deployed only on a mission-by-mission basis. The only exception is the Chapter's 1st Company, which maintains a permanent store of Land Raiders for their personal need.

[thin ibex]

You can GENERALLY assume high volume of infantry, some Dreads, and some supporting vehicles

[balmy wave]

Good point, I was assuming a fully codex-compliant chapter

[pastel rampart]

A given company can operate and maintain light vehicles so any points cost to calculate would inevitably include rhinos in the mix.

[floral herald]

Yeah Rhinos and such are organic to the company but heavier armor is part of the Armory

[thin ibex]

I think high volume infantry with some Dreads works in comp these days lol

[floral herald]

(No comment on where Rhino drivers come from)

[balmy wave]

Oh also I hadn't realised Dreadnoughts were counted as part of the company!

I think that's the number that varies most between companies and chapters - Blood Angels for example will have some more Dreadnoughts since the Devastation of Baal

Whereas chapters that tend to fight to the very death like the Dark Angels will have fewer, but more venerable, dreads

[pastel rampart]

I think it's just a random marine. Possibly a failed aspirant.

[floral herald]

Yeah I think its meant to be one of the squad members but the game doesn't really reflect you losing a bolter bro to drive the Rhino

[balmy wave]

Many vehicle drivers are a part of their vehicles iirc, like semi-dreadnoughts?

Well, in the Dark Angels that is

[bright dove]

Could be a Servitor.

[floral herald]

Rhino drivers are just marines - there's a cutaway somewhere

[balmy wave]

I think they're augmented Astartes

Forge initiates perhaps?

[floral herald]

That's more how it is for members of the Armory - predators and such but Rhino drivers are afaik just drawn from the company

[balmy wave]

Gotta remember that Techmarines are full priests of the cult of Mars, so it could be that initiates and novices within the cult are made to spend more time with the vehicles they serve

[floral herald]

They have pretty conventional controls too

[bright dove]

Fair!

[floral herald]

lmfao acrylic paint is canon

[thin ibex]

Would this be a competitive list in Tau

[paper bluff]

I don't do competitive so I really wouldn't know

[soft willow]

Short answer I don't think so.

[thin ibex]

Damn I was under the impression that breachers and triptide was in

[soft willow]

I mean those parts are good, but I'm not sure the rest of the list is correct.

I also think triptide is cooling a bit.

That said I don't know Tau well.

[thin ibex]

I know triple hammerhead was also big

Dunno if it still is

[soft willow]

Recent wins have seen suits coming back more.

[thin ibex]

I know retaliation+sunforged with either farsight or enforcer for rapid Ingress is potent, and coldstar otherwise

I figured kauyon was (generally) still the more common pick

Sus hits army wide if you play a bit conservatively is just very powerful as an effect

I suppose army wide assault is good too, and guided lethals are a bit better than sus hits conditionally

[mental birch]

Why gun marker not marker shield?

Also feels very huh what'd the plan?

Also you seen my list?

[thin ibex]

i believe ive seen your all suit list yeah

[mental birch]

Yeah ahahha

[thin ibex]

gun marker on the suits you mean?

[mental birch]

Very goofy pile of models ahhaha

[mental birch]

Yeah on thr stralths

Also gun marker on the sunforged commander

Instead of gun shield

The threshold for scoring 4 bid is 15 wounds

[thin ibex]

sun forged SHOULD have been shield gun, was am isclick

misclick*

on the stealths i figured the extra wound would have been a take it or lose it situation since people run around with d2 guns all the time

game plan, loosely, would have been "Kroot on home obj, Sunforged with enforcer in reserve (possibly sub out for farsight), hammerheads focus fire enemy armor, riptides get to the midfield and generally shoot around, devilfish and breachers kinda hover behind buildings till turn 3, vespid to backline if possibl; shadowsun to stick with the riptides or hammerheads for the rr1's

turn 2 or 3 have my sunforged rapid ingress along with one or both breacher teams deploy and start blasting, hopefully landing a big enough blow to leave the enemy army reeling after giving them 2 turns of relative freedom

[rocky harness]

Question fir those who have played the newest fantasy RPG. Have a buddy who is looking at a Lustria campain and is trying to figure out what the best lizard man would be to get that preditor vibe.

[tepid stratus]

You've got to go for either of the two extremes. A chameleon skink or a kroxigor ancient

[solemn gull]

lol a krogigor chasing a bunch of empire gunners through the jungle sounds terrifying

[unreal cosmos]

Transfem Custode whose names start out very masc but get more androgynous and feminine as they got added on like the rings of a tree

[floral herald]

yeag

[tired cairn]

I appreciate how GW is willing to do balance updates somewhat frequently, but man the way they do so can be a bit of a mess: https://youtu.be/KC57sVkS8Ws?si=V3AO13qI5sBeZmP-

[topaz hinge]

Yeahhhhhh

The Aquilons nerf was warranted but it's just messy

This is right after WTC said that you can turret+grenade

[floral herald]

Aquilons were OP in big hammer?

[topaz hinge]

Yeah they're absolutely cracked

[floral herald]

Huh

[topaz hinge]

3 inch rapid ingress to move block

[paper bluff]

Not the old custodes terminator?

[floral herald]

Makes sense

I just know them in Kill Team where they’re a very anodyne team haha

[topaz hinge]

They die, use reinforcements, do it again next turn

[floral herald]

Real pros at dying for the Emperor

[topaz hinge]

They're also just exceedingly good at clearing chaff on home objectives

[pulsar cairn]

there's a chapter called the white templars what

[still warren]

My line of Power energy drinks had some unfortunate naming accidents

[paper bluff]

There's also red i believe

[pulsar cairn]

[past sphinx]

Templars do not beat the allegations

With the white and red color scheme

[solemn gull]

How many [Colour] templars do there need to be for it to move from 🚩 to “Oh it’s the power rangers”

[untold swallow]

Blue Templars

[upper bluff]

As long as one of the colors is pink or a baby blue

Then it's absolutely power rangers

[paper bluff]

Has to be a one syllables colour though. Purple, orange, violet templars do not work

[solemn gull]

What if all of the templars have their own special dread that can combine into a knight

[floral herald]

Need to have the Turquoise Templars

[paper bluff]

What did I just say about the one syllable

[thin ibex]

"Guh"

[paper bluff]

Guh templars works perfectly

[raw vessel]

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Silver_Templars

I wonder if the Fist successor Templars get mad when other successors use the name.

[pastel rampart]

I wonder if the Silver Skulls just go "hey wait a second--"

[thin ibex]

"theres only 1000 chapters, how do we have so much over lap?"

[paper bluff]

Ask the luna wolves and the space wolves. (1000 sons and sons of horus) The death guard and the raven guard maybe can be forgiven. How about the dark angels and the blood angels? Those are both loyalist

[thin ibex]

Dark Bloods, Angel Angels

Blood Darks

[floral herald]

IIRC the Deathwatch chapter creature rules could generate the Brothers Brothers

[upper canopy]

And the Bloody Bloods

[floral herald]

lmao

[upper canopy]

Both were Canon in the first deathwatch game I played as a kid

The Brothers Brothers were all pro wrestler parodies

[runic swallow]

Isn’t that a tv show? Or a movie?

[thin ibex]

WanG game set in the chapter the Brothers Brothers

[pastel rampart]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/725476007435436165/1304637233285959710/image.png?ex=67301d9b&is=672ecc1b&hm=e9c0d9b58c797ba6c54570c1e49e4da87b8d486e9bc0dcbcf9c773f970dfe676&

[untold swallow]

"How fuckin stupid he is." (I'm like half joking, I like Magnus and he does make me sad lmao)

[pastel rampart]

Most of the traitor primarchs have some sort of sadness to them.

Except Lorgar.

Fuck Lorgar.

[bright dove]

Lorgar did Everything Wrong.

[floral herald]

I think Lorgar did a lot of things right and the fundamental truth of the universe is awful

[finite compass]

Lorgar also has sadness to him

It's the sadness of having your faith and hope destroyed, and replaced with something horrible.

[untold swallow]

Lorgar is fine (compared to everyone else)

Erebus, however

Has a literal hate subreddit for good reason

[floral herald]

Erebus is another guy who understood the assignment

[untold swallow]

#fuckerebus

[floral herald]

I think I've been negatively polarized towards Erebus since people online hate him so much

[untold swallow]

lol

[finite compass]

I mean he's an interesting character

He's just also an irredeemably evil bastard. 😛

[untold swallow]

He's interesting he's just

The Mannfred of 40k

[finite compass]

Nah

[brittle salmon]

I think Erebus is a great villain and very hateable, but people take it weirdly far

[brittle salmon]

No he's not

[finite compass]

Mannfred is petty.

[brittle salmon]

Mannfred is useless

Erebus is very effective

[finite compass]

Erebus wholeheartedly believes he's doing the correct thing

[untold swallow]

You know fair lmao

[floral herald]

Erebus is a top 3 most effective space marines ever

Maybe top 1

[finite compass]

And then he does nothing for the next 10,000 years

[brittle salmon]

Mannfred is the bastard son of the Carstein line desperately trying to prove to whoever's in earshot he's better than Daddy Dearest

And failing every time

[floral herald]

It's ok to enjoy retirement after bringing down a galaxy spanning empire

[brittle salmon]

Real

[finite compass]

Mannfred killed the world because he threw a tantrum

Erebus killed the Imperium and set out to do so from the outset.

[floral herald]

What I mean is that Lorgar is kind of a dick but he learned that the fundamental truth of the universe is that ravening psychic gods control and torment the universe and reacted appropriately

[finite compass]

I mean he didn't react appropriately

But he acted understandably

[floral herald]

There is only the laughter of thirsting gods

(Real talk I don't know what the appropriate reaction would be)

[runic swallow]

Deep existential depression

[uneven ember]

(way ahead of you )

[tired cairn]

Just because very powerful immaterial gods can give you gifts, it doesn't mean you need to worship them

[past sphinx]

Local nightlords are proof positive of that

Not God bothers but chock full of chosen, sorcerers and such

[spice flicker]

Trying to deal with long range anti-vehicle threats and flyers so should I go for a knight atrapos of a knight desecrator?

[jagged dawn]

https://fxtwitter.com/cgtester/status/1854930988117152049?s=46&t=oWW_NnXMz5xZU9SUUTq01g

[junior robin]

took a look at the latest ed after reading 3rd all week and wow the lack of options are even more depressing now.

[mental birch]

Ah

[junior robin]

picked up 2 spawns so I could really get weird with one, not sure where I put my chaos bit so havent found another arm for him yet 🤔

[paper bluff]

I think lorgar's sadness is that he's hopeful. That's basically faith. The problem with faith is that when you have an excess of it you can be easily manipulated. And boy has lorgar been manipulated. Pretty much from the beginning

That being manipulated is why I think a lorgar redemption story arc would be good. That despite this long path he has been down and where he is. He chooses his redemption and despite his legion and the dark gods, he chooses it

[bright dove]

The Ultimate moment of Fuck Erebus

[jaunty dawn]

ehhh

lorgar knew what he was doing

doesnt need to be coddled

his ultimate moment of fuck erebus would be cutting him loose and eclipsing him in power, which he probably has

[paper bluff]

I've also realized something. None of my armies would have had a psychic phase

[thin ibex]

Well they would have, it would have just been one that the enemy used to deal mortal wounds to you for free

[paper bluff]

I've got necrons, knights, world eaters, and adeptus custodes

[thin ibex]

Yeah it'd have been a phase that existed on your opponents turn to deal mortal wounds to you for free

[lofty warren]

Juiceless

[past sphinx]

Having used the dark pacts mechanic for CSM for a while now, man that is deeply unsatisfactory at times

Getting sustained or dev wounds should feel cool and empowering but really you just chip wounds through on bolt pistols and miniguns

It feels like the mechanic imperial guard had on las guns really

[floral herald]

It does let Chosen chew on tanks ok in melee which is nice

[past sphinx]

Yeah but thats the whole deal innit? You peck on things

It makes boltguns very efficient i suppose

[thin ibex]

A lot of effects rely on 6's in 10th for sure

I wish chaos could get pintle mini guns as an alternative to the havoc launchers

[zinc field]

Been getting back into warhammer by finally finishing this guy. Trying to give it a techno-barbarian laser spear sort of thing

[runic swallow]

Looks cool!

[sweet solar]

yo thats sick the profile reminds me of the old dreadnoughts and robots from rogue trader

[solemn gull]

It is very funky

[pale narwhal]

Reminds me a bit of the 30k mechanicum vorax automata

[jaunty dawn]

played kill team today and found out the mystic from inquisitorial agents' pistol is wild

hits on a 2+ and has full seek

agents were fun. denounce is amazing

[floral herald]

That gun is so funny

[jaunty dawn]

they ended up losing the gunfight with the sneaky pathfinder but it was still pretty cool

won overall cause I just like

swept my opponents objective and got a ton of points for doing so. crit op was sabotage and my tac op was storm objective

they'd kinda split up their team to go for the middle objective and it didnt pay off too good

and denounce just really countered how cagey they were being cause t2 it disabled the recon drone long enough to kill it then t3 the marksman

the autoquill guy is funny cause once you get him to his objective he doesnt really need to do anything? but having an activation just to delay isnt the end of the world

[paper bluff]

done I think

[pulsar cairn]

I mean

I think Orks would miss the imperium

[pulsar cairn]

black templars dont like mutants right?

they probably dont consider themselves mutants

but sisters and other religious elements in the imperium probably see them as such

i imagine a discussion on that subject between a black templar and a sister would be interesting to see

[hard whale]

they're ok with psykers like astropaths because they "commune with the Emperor". They'd probably have a similar excuse for themselves

[pulsar cairn]

[thin ibex]

I imagine even astropaths and navigators are only tolerated by the bt

Not accepted or even liked

[meager quail]

Technically there are some stable human mutations other than just Navigators that are accepted within the Imperium

Although the Imperium tries not to acknowledge them as such

[thin ibex]

Oh I'm talking about the BT specifically, there are many mutants that are sanctioned within the Imperium

Navigators being the most important amongst them. Abhumans like ogryns and ratlings being amongst the most common

[upper canopy]

The BT fucking hate all psykers yeah

[paper bluff]

IF THEY HAD ANY

[thin ibex]

I imagine Navigators and astropaths on BT ships are also treated like shit, to the extreme boundaries of what a navigator house would tolerate

[paper bluff]

I think the black templars would never willingly discard a tool given to them by the emperor and his divine whim and right

[thin ibex]

I think they'd treat them like a necessary but disgusting tool is the thing

I.e. would treat them shite and not as a person at all

[floral herald]

There's a Navigator with the Black Templars in Eternal Crusader and the navigator is very well treated

[thin ibex]

i find that surprising with how hardline BT are about everything

[floral herald]

The Navigator's quarters are sovereign territory and Helbrecht can't actually enter them without permission

[thin ibex]

thats likely a practical consideration as much as it is one of respect

you dont casually walk into a navigators room or presence

[floral herald]

Inside was a world apart. By ancient treaty signed between the Black Templars and House Ju-Sha-Eng, the area beyond the portal was, technically, not part of the Eternal Crusader at all, but sovereign house territory. Even Helbrecht could not enter without permission.

Wait huh

Helbrecht is a hypocrite

[Helbrecht speaking to the Navigator] ‘You see the light of the Emperor every day – you are truly blessed. Surely you will miss the light of the Astronomican?’
The glazing is unreal

[thin ibex]

That first like doesnt feel like the BT treating them well, it feels like the BT staying true to ancient oaths, whatever their personal feels might be aside

first line*

[bright dove]

Thanks to the travel that BT choose to do, they really need Navigators.

[thin ibex]

also that does make helbrecht feel like a hypocrite

[bright dove]

Like the Imperium at large, yes. 😛

[thin ibex]

hatred is his creed, suffer not the blah blah blah, but also "yo it must be so nice to see the astronomicon"

[floral herald]

That's an interesting perspective on why Navigators might be treated so differently too

[thin ibex]

"Tell me navigator, the astronomicon is the light of the emperor, yes? It's the emperor's soul? Does the emperor have huge pecs and a six pack navigator?"

[floral herald]

Sure they're mutants I guess but they're mutants who can see the emperor every day, so its impossible to say that they're bad
Helbrecht, apparently

[bright dove]

No matter where you are, the Navigators can do something no other person can: They can look upon the Emperor.

[jaunty dawn]

suffer not the witch not including navigators and thronebound is like the normal state of affairs

[pulsar cairn]

hi penny

[jaunty dawn]

which still leaves room to hate like psychic inquisitors etc

hi skully ^^

[floral herald]

I gotta admit I also thought it was a lot owrse

[thin ibex]

i agree, i just presume the BT are NOT representative of the status quo; they are especially hateful, brook no librarians in their ranks. I'd be certain that they have a strong distaste and even disgust for psychic inquisitors despite their probable tolerance of them as servants of the emperor

[floral herald]

Like "they can have their territory and we just don't talk to them except when entirely required" not "what's it like to see the emperor dude that's so cool"

[jaunty dawn]

librarians aren't thronebound tbf

like astropaths have actually been blinded by the emperor in person

[floral herald]

Yeah the soul binding is probably worse a lot of cred for the BTs

[pulsar cairn]

i find that kind of funny

[jaunty dawn]

and navigators given a position of prestige by the emperor

[thin ibex]

im just saying, out of the existing sm chapters, BT seem the most likely to me to be the most unreasonable in their hatred and rejection of psykers, mutants, and heretics

[jaunty dawn]

and the other bt thing is venerating the emperor even more than normal

[thin ibex]

so even the ones that are "ok" by imperial terms, are just tolerated by the BT is what makes sense to me

[bright dove]

One of the Ragnar books was my first exposure to Navigators, and the only thing I remember from that book is that Navigators are Very Big Deals.

[thin ibex]

navigators are the only reason the imperium still runs

they're the most powerful sub group in the entire imperium pretty much

[bright dove]

Yep, up there with Astropaths imo

[floral herald]

Oh so Astropaths have a similar justification:

Welcome, welcome, bid welcome to Blessed Mistress Anyanka Dei Osper, touched by the Emperor! Pay obeisance, give your awe! Here is one who has seen the light of the Lord of Man!’

[pulsar cairn]

is that a BT quote?

[floral herald]

Yeah from a Chaplain

[thin ibex]

lol"Hate psykers, they're the worst, they're the most evil and gateways to the arch enemy!" but also "Man its so neat that psykers get to see the emperors light, must be so cool and honorable and pure"

[bright dove]

Oh shit, if that's from a BT Chaplin, that's about as good of praise as you're gonna get.

[floral herald]

I dig this lore because the 2 fundamental roots of Imperium thought are hatred and hypocrisy

[desert jay]

Navigators and astropaths are just "some of the good ones"

[paper bluff]

Again, the black templars don't have librarians not because of hate, it's because none happen and they don't import any

The BT geneseed doesn't take to psykers

[desert jay]

"We hate mutants! But not you, you're cool"

[pulsar cairn]

I thought BT geneseed was just imperial fist genseed

[finite compass]

I thought that as well.

[floral herald]

Rumor has it the capability for BTs to get librarians was destroyed when they killed the Cacodominus

[jaunty dawn]

thats kinda dumb ngl

like theres an established reason for marines to not trust librarius

like it was a whole conflict

[floral herald]

I think its just a rumor

[bright dove]

Things like this is why I say there's further founding Thousand Sons chapters

[desert jay]

What if BTs did it to themselves?

[paper bluff]

Yes but it's Spicy imperial fist

[past sphinx]

BT being a run on from sigismund who has some small things point to him being an adopted son

Is where that comes fro.

[desert jay]

What if back in M33 or M35 or whatever they were like "you know what? fuck psykers" and had their apothecaries fuck up the thing needed to successful psyker geenseed implants?

Would be incredibly in character, I think

[floral herald]

Wasn't that just an elective thing though? Like the BTs were just the angry ones who also painted there armor

[pulsar cairn]

i like that

[tired cairn]

Hypocrisy? In my 40k? It's your likely than you think

[meager quail]

I just assume everyone in 40k is a hypocrite, does this imply some of them are double-hypocrites?

[bright dove]

Yes, like Trazyn.

[meager quail]

160% hypocrisy chance

Those are the 40k starting odds

The Emperor was the rare quintuple hypocrite

[past sphinx]

Meaning when they become a chapter, I can't speak for the true original freaks

Sigismunds mindset setting the culture for the chapter so on so forth

[tired cairn]

People were worried about the emperor becoming the chaos god of destruction of whatever, but really he was going to ascend to become the chaos god of hypocrisy

[upper canopy]

To be fair Helbrecht is like

The most reasonable Black Templar

And the gap between him and the average one is like

Interstellar

[floral herald]

Yeah but later BTs would be descended from the original freaks

Unless Sigsimund had way more geneseed than normal

[paper bluff]

There is a reason he's in charge

[paper bluff]

I mean.... if there was ever a marine that would...

[silk verge]

trazyn has never done anything wrong ever

orikan is a filthy liar

[spice flicker]

Trying to deal with long range anti-vehicle threats and flyers so should I go for a knight atrapos of a knight desecrator?

[uneven ember]

Back In The Day, BT armies just hated psykers so much that not only couldn't they take Librarians of their own you couldn't field them with any other Imperial psykers except Grey Knights
It acknowledged that a fleet-based Chapter, by necessity, must have access to Navigators and astropaths but was speculated that it must be a very "by necessity" thing

Then when they folded BT back into the main SM codex (8th?) they changed the fluff to say that the Templars just don't have Librarians for mysterious reasons and while they hate unsanctioned psykers and mutants they're cool with everything else in the Imperial lists so you're fine souping as you please

since then it's kinda gone back and forth as 40K fluff is wont to do

[spice flicker]

That's the nuclear catachan toads right?

[pulsar cairn]

she's already lost to us

[finite compass]

Yes

[upper canopy]

Barking Toads

Also no

it's Frog the Jam

we just stuck antenna on it and called it a day

fun behind the scenes

[dense sedge]

nuclear catachan toads?

[upper canopy]

Catachan Barking Toads

https://www.tumblr.com/wh40kartwork/765625029139496960/refueling?source=share

[paper bluff]

There is also a lesser barking toad but is also extremely dangerous

[uneven ember]

An amphibian native to Catachan that, when threatened, has a defense mechanism where it releases a toxin so virulent that all organic matter within a kilometer (including the toad) dissolves into goo and nothing will ever grow there again

||it's a fart joke||

[pastel rampart]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/387598183039 I was looking for a Baal predator alternative in the classic 2e/3e vein and ah...yeah shit that'll do lol

[dense sedge]

...how is there any catachan left?

[solemn gull]

They love it there

[uneven ember]

well, for a start, people have learned to leave the barking toads alone
so that helps

the kind of mistake people make exactly once

[thin ibex]

Catachans likely have prodigious libido to make up for how only 1/4 of them make it to adulthood and combat regiments are their only export/tithe

Incidentally I'm a bit surprised that we never got like a... jungle themed space marine chapter or company

[paper bluff]

it's not "nothing will ever grow there again" it jst takes a while

[floral herald]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/i0id0xug/the-servant-of-the-silent-ones-is-ready-to-worm-its-way-into-your-house-delaque-gang/

Wow! So normal

[obsidian flume]

I didn’t know what I was coming in here for but I love this guy

[thin ibex]

Thought it was a new necron for a sec

[valid brook]

wœrm

[upper bluff]

Necromunda really is just the worst huh

Like holy crap look at this thing

[bold halo]

Oh it's fleshy

[thin ibex]

is necromunda and its situation notably unique or would it be safe to assume that other major hive worlds have similar degrees of complexity and unique developments?

[floral herald]

Not notably unique

[paper bluff]

Necronumda gets some cool minis

[paper bluff]

Each hive city is like necromunda but the colours and brushes are different

Does the hive have a genestealer cult? Betting odd would say yes.
Mutants of some variety seeking to gain power? Yep.
Some tech-arkeology? Not amazingly common but very possible.
Nobles and crime families fighting over it all? Yep. 100%

[pastel rampart]

But only Necromunda has Imperial Fists taking in recruits and giving them tramp stamps.

[jaunty dawn]

I think necromunda is like

somewhat notably unique

idk

[floral herald]

The IFs recruit from a lot of places unless the tramp stamps are a Necromunda special

[jaunty dawn]

like the whole pre imperial nobility stuff

and having underground fish

and having a functioning ish stc

[floral herald]

Necromunda is definitely unique - what I was getting at is that most hive worlds are similarly unique and complex

[jaunty dawn]

maybe

i think I go back and forth on it

I think any hive world has the potential to be necromunda and ppl should be encouraged to get weird with any planet

[thin ibex]

my inclination is to think that most hive cities have just as rich a tapestry of houses, guilds, and undercities as necromunda, necromunda is just the one we get a magnifying glass on

because of course it would be impossible to go that hard into detail for every hive city

[jaunty dawn]

like armageddon has so much going on and it still kinda pales compared to modern necromunda lore

idk

[paper bluff]

Armageddon is a hive planet getting sandblasted by ork and has it's own fun history ||it's ullanor||

[past sphinx]

Munda is special because its older than the imperium and builds just a fuckload of guns

Beyond that its just a hive world with a lot of writing about it

"Find a rocket launcher in the trash" amount of guns

[upper canopy]

No the IF are special for giving tramp stamps.

[paper bluff]

I'd love some new writing about gorkamorka. It wouldn't be the same or as silly but it's still like to see it

[jaunty dawn]

i think most hive cities probably have a lot more crime

[floral herald]

More than Munda?

[jaunty dawn]

because they dont have sanctioned paramilitary death squads everywhere

[thin ibex]

well, the arbites are around

[jaunty dawn]

yeah I dont think munda has much crime at all

because if you commit an actual crime you get hit hard by everyone

[thin ibex]

isnt the undercity for munda pretty much just crime?

[floral herald]

I think that while that’s a pretty imperium perspective on it “we legalized most murders” is maybe not indicative of genuinely low crime rates

[jaunty dawn]

no! its controlled by paramilitary wings of industrial guilds basically

i mean the main point I guess is that the gang politics and imperial politics are the same from the top down

not even just collaboration/corruption

[thin ibex]

iirc, given my limited knowledge, in Hired Gun the groups were just big gangs who used violence to express their territorial control; and that often times what happens down in the undercity could not happen in other places legally

[jaunty dawn]

if a gang beats up another gang for claim over a block of the hive, thats totally legal

[thin ibex]

which is why a lot of it happens in the undercity

[jaunty dawn]

like thats just how you get real estate

[paper bluff]

If munda (as a whole) pays its tithes and taxes on time and says "praise the god-emperor" it's fine by the wider Imperium

[thin ibex]

its also a bit like, its only not illegal because the imperium places no value on human lives, and legality is often defined by whether or not you have disrupted industry or offended nobility

[jaunty dawn]

this is why theres even a concept of outlaw gang; because the vast majority are law abiding citizens just doing their job

[thin ibex]

it doesnt matter WHO is moving the goods or producing them, just that they ARE produced and that they meet quota

[jaunty dawn]

and this is like, not an imperial thing so much as a helmawr thing? they set up this system on purpose

[past sphinx]

Munda has less crime because the crime is legal

ankmorpork style

If you're gonna have crime it might as well be organized

[jaunty dawn]

its more accurate to say that gangs are just like rival police precincts

with the ruling nobility simply have the biggest and best paid police so they get to be called the enforcers

[past sphinx]

I've tried to explain munda as like the HRE

A whole bunch of small states in a trench coat that all try to kill each other but when helnawr drops his fist it falls in

[jaunty dawn]

like organised crime is an alternate system of power to whats seen as 'legitimate'

[paper bluff]

Was about to say that lol

[jaunty dawn]

but theres no alternate on necromunda - the houses are full parts of the 'legitimate' system

for actual criminals you gotta look at like recidivists and fallen houses etc

[past sphinx]

And there are active democracy on munda

The spire had a successful revolution and js one of the jewels of the planet

[solemn gull]

Is Helmawr still trying to launch hive primus into space?

[tired cairn]

He needs to build 301 is them to do that

[jaunty dawn]

looking at the underworlds 'index' and uhhh

majority of warbands didnt actually get an update! or well, they got new fighter cards, but the warband cards is 2 generic ones per grand alliance

so super flavourful warbands like the shadestalkers who used to be all about teleporting and manipulating cover now have literally 0 unique rules

warbands that actually got rules arent all as bad as they could have been since you apparently are allowed multiple use abilities in the main section of the card after all

bleh

okay thats probably my last underworlds vent post now I can just pretend the new version doesnt exist

[paper bluff]

You know, if wathammer plus came with a monthly free audio book they could charge 15$ and I bet people would sub. Not even 1 you choose just a random one

[still warren]

Damnit they gave me Horus Hersey book #129 again

[dense sedge]

Delaque is cool, Shane it’s resin though

[ebon forge]

||-# vore||

Did Skarbrand survived the transition to AoS?

[solemn gull]

More like a woodchipper stapled onto a worm

[ebon forge]

not a lie

[jaunty dawn]

skarbrand is in aos yeah

pretty sure

[tepid stratus]

He is. He has beef with Shalaxi

[ebon forge]

Thank
Did he got any development at all asidefrom "Eternally angry, eternally on redemption from backstabbing Khorne and getting intelligent drained" ?

[tired cairn]

Oh, is there a new version of Underworlds? That seems kind of weird to me (for no good reason, it slots into the boardgame slot into my mind and it's much rarer for those to get new editions)

[bright dove]

Nope

[thin ibex]

It's not decided in lore, but who's stronger in yalls mind, skarbrand or angron. I'm betting on skarbrand

[ebon forge]

dang

[ebon forge]

Did Guilliman defeated Skarbrand?

If yes, Angron, otherwise, Skarbrand

[thin ibex]

No I think he defeated Angrath didn't he?

[jaunty dawn]

yeaaaah

[thin ibex]

Khornes current favorite bloodthirster

[bright dove]

I will say Skarbrand hits like a truck over in AoS

Can Crit for 8 mortal wounds

[ebon forge]

But not his n1 fav, that's Kharn

[bright dove]

He is a swell guy

[past sphinx]

A son and step son rivalry

[tired cairn]

Apparently genestealers are for killing Land Raiders

[runic swallow]

Hasn’t that happened for years? I remember the old rending claws stuff

[bold halo]

yeah genestealers historically play well into vehicles

big meaty claws

[jaunty dawn]

old rending couldn't do a land raider I dont think

strength 4 + 6 + 3

[runic swallow]

Wasn’t the rending rule that the glanced on 6s?

[jaunty dawn]

noooooo

[runic swallow]

Or something like that

[jaunty dawn]

+d3 if you rolled a 6 to pen

glance on 6s was gauss weapons

[runic swallow]

I swear genestealers could damage land raiders

[tired cairn]

They changed it in 10th edition in that you need the broodlord to be good against tough stuff

Otherwise they get no AP-equivalent bonus

[jaunty dawn]

rending was like. slightly better krak grenades. cause they could glance av 13 and at some times were ap 2 instead of ap 3

[floral herald]

What edition are you talking about?

[jaunty dawn]

depending on the edition for whether their ap was real or not

idk a gestalt of 3-7 tbh

i know by heresy rending is actively ap 2

when it triggers

[runic swallow]

I’m just trying to figure out if I’m crazy or if genestealers ever were a threat to land raiders

[floral herald]

I don’t remember an edition where it was +1d3

[jaunty dawn]

then youre misremembering lol

[bold halo]

4th was an armor pen roll of 6 added +d6

[tired cairn]

So was third

[jaunty dawn]

egads

hoisted on my own petard

[tired cairn]

Rending was a core rule in 4th. So I can't remember what it did

[jaunty dawn]

they mustve nerfed it at some point to d3

to stop land raider quaking in fear

[tired cairn]

But in 3rd rolls of six to hit just autodamaged non-vehicles

Which is wild

[bold halo]

yeah early rending was fucked

[jaunty dawn]

oh wild

[bold halo]

shoutouts to harlequin's kiss, rending claws, assault cannons

[jaunty dawn]

feel like melee rending cant have been that wild

[bold halo]

melee rending was that wild

[jaunty dawn]

especially compared to power weapons all being ap 2

uh what I mean is that like

compared to ranged rending haha

like rending claws vs assault cannons/autocannons

[bold halo]

one of the best lists in 4th edition 40k was clown cars full of harlequins because of how good melee rending was

[tired cairn]

In 8th, rending claws got -4 AP if they rolled 6 to wound

[jaunty dawn]

you do get a lot more rending claws than those though

[bold halo]

any to hit of 6 ignored armor and autowounded

throw enough dice and you skip two rolls

[floral herald]

The meme back then was that genestealers just killed everything in melee

[tired cairn]

They only had one wound and a mid save though

Super glass cannons

[jaunty dawn]

oh okay 5e was when it was made the wound roll

[bright dove]

Especially Terminators

[bold halo]

most things only had one wound in 4th tbh

[jaunty dawn]

and 6e was when it became ap 2 specifically (for armour pen)

but thats what I mean like terminators are probably a lot less scared than genestealers requiring a 6 (even if it was like 4 dice each) then any power sword unit that every attack was putting them on their invuln

at initiative

[bold halo]

rending was a lot easier to get than units full of power weapons

[jaunty dawn]

costing was all over the place yeah

but its like howling banshees existed

[tired cairn]

Oh, genestealers only had a 6+ save (i.e. no save) in 3rd. Though they also had infiltrate, which was pretty sick

[floral herald]

All power weapon units were super rare but also yeah

[bold halo]

howling banshees were dogwater lol

like they had power weapons but they couldn't kill anything

[floral herald]

Termies weren’t very good except for SS/TH assault termies and chaos termicide squads

[bold halo]

completely pillowfisted

[jaunty dawn]

but thats starting to get into an overall balance problem than rending itself being powerful

[bold halo]

rending was specifically overpowered in 4th, it was a problem

anything that had it was very valuable

[jaunty dawn]

like any rule can be good if its chronically undercosted

[bold halo]

like in the blood angels white dwarf pdf codex era you just slammed three baal predators into your heavy slots because twin linked assault cannon

S6 rending chewed up everything

[floral herald]

And they were fast as helllll

So easy side armor shots and stuff

[bold halo]

yeah

and then 3x multimelta attack bikes in the fast attack slot because there was nothing good in that section lol

armor just shit its pants in front of BA

[floral herald]

I was gonna say assault marines were ok but I think BA got them as troops

[bold halo]

yeah

[jaunty dawn]

and no one used significant terrain

[bold halo]

and then jump pack death company as elites who you'll never believe it

also had rending

[pulsar cairn]

chat updated i missed skarbrand talk

[bold halo]

w/ lemartes giving them rerolls to hit on the charge

god I miss that

[floral herald]

BAs were such a nightmare back then

[bold halo]

yeah they were fun

[floral herald]

Admittedly this was also the Lashprince era so the game just just generically grody as fuck competitively

[bold halo]

zero list diversity but they were really good at what they did

[uneven ember]

Okay so is the worm eating a dude or is that arm part of the worm

[floral herald]

I think the former

[jaunty dawn]

worm is eating the dude

I think it might technically be like

an eel

[glad spear]

What's good my Warhammer folks

How do you guys feel about a fusion blaster crisis suit squad dropping on your home objective?

Also Tau propaganda post

[junior robin]

wow, RIP scar lords.

[glad spear]

Visualized excerpt of a section of Farsight Crisis of Faith

Farsight later flies through the shield of the scar lord's frigate by turning off his systems while flying fast, flies INTO the cannon barrel of a large cannon, shoots his way through the ship and blows up the geller field from the inside

Im a Tau player and love the Tau in general, they got crazy ass feats in the lore, between Shadowsun and Farsight

[junior robin]

its impressive of them destroying an entire space marine chapter

[glad spear]

Shadowsun dueled a Raven guard chapter master and killed him

Farsight dueled Cato Sicarius to a standstill without dying

Farsight along with some scientists managed to destroy a tyranid splinter fleet

[junior robin]

looking up lost space marine chapters and think I found one of the funniest bits of lore.

[glad spear]

Farsight has defeated 2 WAAGHS, and dueled 2 Warbosses, one being in a Stompa

[uneven ember]

Sword Interval guy has a 40k oc
||(hi 😳)||

[glad spear]

Genestealer?

[junior robin]

"The Celestial Swords were two Space Marine Chapters that were Founded at the same time and were mistakenly given the same name and heraldries by the Administratum."

[solemn gull]

In his mech?

[glad spear]

Yes, but this was a regular crisis suit

[solemn gull]

Fair enough

[junior robin]

"both Chapters were destroyed by Abaddon's forces during the Ninth Black Crusade and it was only after the Celestial Swords' bodies were recovered that the Administratum realized their mistake."

[glad spear]

It's a big deal to survive a Cato duel since he's has big plot armor powers

[junior robin]

sadly no picture of them

[glad spear]

Oofda

[uneven ember]

(oh that rips)

[uneven ember]

yeah he has some sweet GSC art

[glad spear]

That's sick

[solemn gull]

Amazing GSC figured out how to wear wigs finally

[uneven ember]

& IMO
the thing about 40K is that it's stupid big and full of tens of thousands of years' worth of bullshit and nonsense
the "main" factions are the ones that have galaxy-spanning empires and wind up at war all over the goddamn place but any one of the IoM's million worlds or the millions more outside of its influence could be loaded up with all sorts of nonsense and it would fit in with the cannon just fine

So Necromunda is unusually full of nonsense, it's an especially old and developed and bullshit-laden example of a 40K planet, but it's not a uniquely old and developed and bullshit-laden example, you can do all sorts of nonsense

[glad spear]

Only one of 5 of my minis I have painted so far(I have a big pile still primed and sitting)

Little dudes

Their load outs are now incorrect due to the new edition rulings

[cinder wraith]

built my visionary for KT :3

[uneven ember]

it's honestly something that's been bothering me for a minute, how often the devs want to tie stuff in to existing canon instead of just having the setting be stupid big and full of all sorts of bullshit

[glad spear]

The load out thing was less canon but more just limiting the amount of customization

It also meant you can't just triple cyclic ion blasters for all of your suits and have that be the best loadout mathematically

[bold halo]

also the cyclic ion blaster was 1/box so you had to 3d print the rest lol

[glad spear]

Now there's 3 you can choose from with different special abilities to fit the load out like anti armor

Yeah that too

I like the change tbh, but you also don't have all the bits for a full squad with one box

[bold halo]

loadouts changing edition to edition is just something that happens tho, my old wraithlord is rocking a scatter laser and shuriken cannon while now the best loadout would be 2x bright lance

which under the edition I built it in would've been deeply terrible

[glad spear]

Yeah

Also the kroot update is hype

And Vespid

You know my pet peeve? Writers turning the Tau from like the one actually good force to a imperium lite with comically evil ethereals

[uneven ember]

Although I think they did officially say the "mind control" stuff was bunk

[glad spear]

Phil Kelly implied it and people ran with it

[pulsar cairn]

can gene stealer cult members infect other people? Or do u need to be from their family?

[paper bluff]

...... maybe?

[pastel rampart]

Genestealers are the only one who can infect others.

Cult members "infect" others by, well, havin' babies. But unless there's some bio-chemical fuckery going on in a lab there's no other way to infect others outside of purestrain genestealers.

What makes cults insidious is that you have to kill all of them, because if even one of them escapes they'll eventually start the whole process again because after a couple of generations they'll produce a genestealer, who then becomes the de-facto patriarch and starts infecting more people.

[pulsar cairn]

they surely are a problem

[dense sedge]

Particularly for the imperium where terrible conditions mean that they can recruit in normal cult and revolutionary ways without purely relying on the genestealer’s kiss

[jagged dawn]

https://x.com/siegestudios/status/1856067969232822667?s=46&t=oWW_NnXMz5xZU9SUUTq01g

Siege Studios (@SiegeStudios) on X

An awesome set of converted Tau Firewarriors, these were a great idea by one of our clients who wanted something a little bit different for their army and collection.

For a quote or to book your commission:
https://t.co/jwbtgJVasD

Using parts from the Tau and Leagues of Votann

Twitter · Nov 11, 2024, 8:14 PM

[verbal ermine]

League of Votau...

[rocky shale]

Alright kill teamers, I need advice

My lgs is having a "intro to kt" tournament and a lot of people are probably gonna be running the starter set teams. I'm also new to KT but have access to voidscarred and blades of khaine. Which would be easier to pilot and do good against mostly marines/dg

[floral herald]

Both teams are doing pretty ok

I think BoK has had a better time lately handling the really brutal elites

But they're both solid options which are a little tricky to execute on

[rocky shale]

Such is the life of playing eldar

[floral herald]

yeah 100%

[rocky shale]

I could probably really quickly get quins or maybe inquisitorial agents together but I don't think those are less fussy

[floral herald]

Harlequins have a better record in comp play rn but yeah they're also gonna be tricky and technical

Wait sorry I am misready - Voidscarred are working better

I got hand of the archon and blades of khain mixed up in the standings whoops

[rocky shale]

Ahhh

[floral herald]

It's still like "either is viable"

[rocky shale]

Im tempted to go blades just because they have more straightforward datasheets

[floral herald]

Yeah that's super fair

[rocky shale]

Though there are like a million aspect techniques

[floral herald]

And if its mostly starter sets then you're hopefully not gonna need to handle Legionaries or Hierotek or Warpcoven as much since those are the teams to beat rn

[rocky shale]

Nice

[floral herald]

Looking it over I think playing whatever you feel more comfortable executing on is better

[rocky shale]

The aspect techniques look worse to keep track of than just having the datasheets so I think ill go voidscarred.

[floral herald]

sounds good

IIRC the play for VS and HOTA is basically babysitting your blasters or similar and using potent special weapons to knock big holes in marines

[rocky shale]

Debating taking the heavy gunner but I cant take blaster + wraithcannon so prob not

[uneven ember]

saw someone suggest that, in the same way Wookiepedia is entirely in the past tense because it all takes place long ago in a galaxy far away, the 40K fandom stuff should all be written in the future tense

[floral herald]

The blaster is really good

I feel like it might be mission dependent

On a good map the wraithcannon is one of the most lethal guns in KT24

It's just fucking crazy good

[rocky shale]

Yeah its more just dealing with heavy

[floral herald]

Yeah dash only heavy is rough

[jagged dawn]

…we may have found a different army to paint our future space marines as

https://fxtwitter.com/space_conky/status/1856035847843246374?s=46&t=oWW_NnXMz5xZU9SUUTq01g

They’re homebrew but goddamn

[misty violet]

I always felt like the Soul hunters are just a little too much, though I am also just in awe of the guy who has managed to pay for so much art of them and even made for free by turning them into a whole subgenre of fan art

[paper bluff]

I do love offical looking fan chapters

I only had a custom warband. I would love to get art of them

If I had to custom chapter......

[pastel rampart]

https://bskye.app/profile/derwafflemous.bsky.social/post/3laqdiwe56c26

[solemn gull]

That poor smash captain is probably old enough to drink at this point

[paper bluff]

Golems of Lacon
Iron warriors and iron hands chimera
Chapter monastery: a DAoT ring around mountainous feral/medieval world
Homeworld: Lacon
A plant protected by a force field generated by the ring that only drops every 7 years

Warfare style has an unusual amount of volkite weapons.
Favoring a directed strike then overwhelming power

I imagine they would have knowledge of their primarchs and would place an emphasis of making things to get closer to their fathers.
There is a chaplain/tech marine position known as The Breaker who evaluates the creations of his brothers and saves only the best and destroys the other

[solemn gull]

What does that mean exactly

[paper bluff]

It is an important lesson every brother must learn

[solemn gull]

Right but what does it mean

Like does a tech marine chaplain guy just walk around and explode everyone who isn’t a good enough marine?

[paper bluff]

No no

[hard whale]

he doesn't kill the marines, he breaks their projects

[paper bluff]

Like the salamanders with making wargear, the golems also make wargear and create things. The breaker evaluates the creations

[hard whale]

like a science fair!

[paper bluff]

Correct.

[solemn gull]

Oh, I read “evaluates the creation of marines”

[paper bluff]

It's like that time with magnus and the warp lense

[solemn gull]

Like he just explodes scout marines he doesn’t like

[paper bluff]

Nah but that would be very iron warriors/hands

I imagine the "chapter master" being somthing like a dreadnought chassis that is wired into the ring

Also they would trade/have contact with the kin but keep the secret

And the chapter would try to have as little contact with the mechanicus as possible

[solemn gull]

Well all tech marines have to be trained on mars so that might be hard

[paper bluff]

As possible

Or maybe it's just techpreists like Cawl

Maybe there's a knight world not too far not too far that they have an agreement with for their sancartisians and people

Maybe a deathworld also to pull from

Is Lacon a paradise? Of a sort. Better than the deathworld, free-er than the knight world

[junior robin]

finally, inquisitorial primaris lieutenant

[paper bluff]

I bet a necromunda mini

[junior robin]

my hopes would have been for a 3 sprues inquisitor with optional part if it wasnt for the fact they recently got their codex

[paper bluff]

Hang on, is there a generic inquisitor model now? I just did a quick look at the gw site and there wasn't

[junior robin]

they used to have the old resin one but seems to be gone now 🤔

[soft willow]

Currently there is no generic Inquisitor

Unless you count the subscription one with the servitor friend.

[junior robin]

I doupt it would count since he have a weapon that inquisitors cant.

[desert jay]

11e unit preview :v

[soft willow]

I mean that does happen and some Rumor Engines go on for quite a while.

[desert jay]

Yeah I’m only half joking, because some rumor engines have had a 2 or 3 year lead

[paper bluff]

Remember the brettonina lord on foot with greatsword mini?

[jaunty dawn]

the one that was done for whfb but never got released?

until tow

[thin ibex]

My admech crusade all assembled in tts

[jaunty dawn]

fun!

have it!

[runic swallow]

Huh, did someone just take pictures of their minis to use in tabletop sim?

Or scans or whatever

[jaunty dawn]

yeah that's how a lot of it is done

or wait I wonder if you can generate these from the store page turnaround

[runic swallow]

Oh yeah that’d make sense

[tired cairn]

I think you can get virtually every unit in TTS

[thin ibex]

yeah a lot of modern ones are like 3d scans via a phone app or some such

[runic swallow]

Oh I more mean how they look like actual models

[thin ibex]

so you get very accurate but lumpy models

[jaunty dawn]

phototelemetry(?) has come a pretty long way

so yeah both the 3d model and the texture on it was taken from a real model

[floral herald]

You can

[jaunty dawn]

that makes a lot more sense than there being an overlap of high quality painters who do phototelemetry to play online tabletop games lol

[runic swallow]

You never know

There are some inexplicable people out in this world

[tired cairn]

Of the hobbies to have that overlap, this would be the least surprising one

[pulsar cairn]

I love it! Is that a titan or a knight?

[thin ibex]

its a Knight! Knight Magaera specifically, has a siege claw and a lightning cannon

[jaunty dawn]

tol knight