Is Rangers, Banshees, Conclaves, and a squad of Wraithblades
#Warhammer and Such
untold swallow
finite compass
Workable
(I know nothing about current eldar and their balance, so I may just be talking out of my ass)
But the consensus seems to be that most effective lists actually do run without guardians
bold halo
yeah you don't need guardians at all
rangers pop up in winning lists occasionally, banshees, conclaves not at all, wraithguard and blades are expensive as hell but can put in work
bold halo
just don't skip the spiritseer on the wraithblades
bold halo
probably didn't need saying but you never know
honestly I'm not sure what conclaves do that something else wouldn't do better
120 is a lot for 4 models
with only 4+
bold halo
already in for a car downpayment on the unit, may as well go all in
untold swallow
~ why can't Autarchs with Banshee Masks lead Banshees GW ~
untold swallow
So far my eldar list’s niche appears to be “Infiltrator and Scout, Infiltrator and Scout everywhere”
Farseer (115pts): Eldritch Storm, Shuriken Pistol, Warlord, The Phoenix Gem, Witchblade
Spiritseer (80pts): Shuriken Pistol, Witch Staff, The Weeping Stones
10x Corsair Voidscarred (160pts)
10x Howling Banshees (140pts)
10x Howling Banshees (140pts)
10x Howling Banshees (140pts)
10x Rangers (110pts)
10x Rangers (110pts)
10x Rangers (110pts)
10x Striking Scorpions (130pts)
10x Striking Scorpions (130pts)
10x Striking Scorpions (130pts)
10x Wraithblades (340pts)```
thin ibex
das a lotta dudes
i.e. your niche is to be on objectioves real early and try and last like 3 rounds with the majority of them under your control
untold swallow
i.e. your niche is to be on objectioves real early and try and last like 3 round...
yeah lol i guess
Mostly it’s ‘units I can stand to look at’
thin ibex
i wish banshees were better stat wise, atm they're more like semi tarpit units
without much killing power
a lot of other stuff going for them with like abilities and movement n stuff, but real bad as far as actually doing melee
untold swallow
mm mm
thin ibex
(id still bring em too, because i like em and they're iconic. I just accept that they'd prolly eat shit
though im also a sucker for the avatar of khaine
i think that guy looks heckin sickj
untold swallow
I am cursed to never field the Avatar because I make lists as like
the 'standard' deployment for my factions
and if your standard deployment includes the Avatar
You are either existentially fucked if you don't win literally every fight
or are on some drukhari tier sacrifice shit
thin ibex
If I was going for standard...
mental birch
pastel rampart
tired cairn
You are either existentially fucked if you don't win literally every fight
Tbf, that's probably some Eldar craftworld somewhere
floral herald
I think the new Kill Team starter box is coming out for pre order today
thin ibex
An aspect temple would only ever have one exarch right? Regardless of how many disciples it has?
floral herald
Yeah they're the most numerous
untold swallow
Tbf, that's probably some Eldar craftworld somewhere
lmao fair
untold swallow
An aspect temple would only ever have one exarch right? Regardless of how many d...
If that was true, Exarchs would be Characters and not Sergeants lmao
thin ibex
well the thing i remembered is that an exarch is less a person and more a gestalt personality
untold swallow
the fuck?
floral herald
Exarchs used to be characters tbf
thin ibex
when an exarch puts the armor on, its festooned with the spirit stones of each past exarch
and it overwhelms the personality of the current wearer
floral herald
well the thing i remembered is that an exarch is less a person and more a gestal...
That is true yeah, its why there's only one Exarch with a given Exarch Name at a time
But there's usually more than one in a given aspect shrine
untold swallow
That's tight tbh
floral herald
I like how eldar are "space elves" and then you dig into them and they get really really weird
bold halo
exarchs are the eldar who get so lost in the sauce on the warrior path they can never go back to civilian life
floral herald
Every eldar has it within themselves to get addicted to swords
bold halo
untold swallow
exarchs are the eldar who get so lost in the sauce on the warrior path they can ...
I mean I knew that part, I just didn't know they were fuckin
Avatar State
thin ibex
the exarchs are terrifying reminders of what it means to get last on a path of the warrior to the aeldari
lost*
floral herald
I've always wondered if there's exarchs for non-warrior paths
untold swallow
I don't think so?
floral herald
Some eldar who was like "you know what, painting is THE shit" can't can't ever leave the path of the artist
Yeah I think its kinda unique to the warrior paths because of the connection with Khaine
bold halo
eldar just really fucking love killing things, man
they dress it up pretty but they're so, so goddamn violent
thin ibex
From their shrine, they take the spirit stone that houses the departed souls of past Exarchs whereupon they assumed a Sacred Name that is associated with the stone. This comes at a time when their spirit mingles with that of the spirit stone which has been part of the armour since its inception. The mind of its user becomes lost within the greater heroic beings that bear the Exarchs name with their memories as well as experiences of the past beginning to merge with their own. Thus, their life becomes just another stage in the long existence of the spirit stone as the heroic warrior is born once again in a new form.
untold swallow
they dress it up pretty but they're so, so goddamn violent
this is why I think Khornate Eldar would go hard as fuck
bright dove
The Eldar are as violent as Orks, they just dress it up
upper canopy
Eldar can get lost on any path
But Exarchs are specifically a path of the warrior thing due to the fact that the armor exists
untold swallow
```Autarch Wayleaper (130pts): Fate's Messenger, Howling Banshee Mask, Banshee B...
oh god this list is 103 models
nope 113 lmao
upper canopy
This list vs 250 Kroot Hounds
floral herald
Is there... any way to actually legally take 250 kroot hounds?
thin ibex
nope
floral herald
I think it would be funny to play against ngl
Except for waiting out their movement phase lmao
hybrid oyster
you can legally take 240+ guard though!
thin ibex
infernus squads and gladiator reapers have this one neat trick
hybrid oyster
60 cadians, 60 generic, 60 krieg, and 60 catachan, then for HQ command squads.
youd lose horribly
but you could
thin ibex
3 command squads, 3 regimental attaches
hybrid oyster
we can go even further beyond, 3 cadian command squads and 3 platoon command squads
thin ibex
3 ogryn bodyguards, 3 psykers
hybrid oyster
guard psykers are one of the funniest units in guard
no one expects them to hit as hard as they do
thin ibex
i like it cause it can make the big 20 block annoyingly tough
hybrid oyster
and then randomly they can just mulch an entire marine squad
floral herald
you can legally take 240+ guard though!
I member when you could take way more
untold swallow
hm
thin ibex
when conscripts were 30 people
untold swallow
how rationalize Aeldari Khorne worship...
floral herald
I think you needed a very large points value but I think in 5e you could field about 500 guardsmen before running out of slots
hybrid oyster
Infantry spam is funnier than tank spam just not as good
floral herald
5e guard infantry spam was good!
Some really competitive lists fielded hundreds of guardsman models
hybrid oyster
im working on painting my tanks atm because Its probably time to finish painting the one model in my army that actually does damage.
thin ibex
i think, honestly, big infantry spam is still pretty useable in 40k
floral herald
mostly as tarpit screeners for artillery and mystics
thin ibex
because you can tar pit objectives
and if you play em right, you can catch a big early game advantage
on points
raw number of wounds is strong
especially when the enemy brought as many anti tank guns as possible
floral herald
I think it depends on how you can deploy them
Like deceptors infiltrator spam is strong
But walking a bunch of dudes out of your DZ less so
hybrid oyster
I feel like guard is going to lose regimental attaches in the codex update
so im kinda sad about that
thin ibex
you can get a bit of the sparkle with scout movements
not as good as infil
but usually good enough to give you a leg up on objectives
hybrid oyster
isnt it that if all models in a transport have scout so does the transport?
so like 10 catachan in a chimera
thin ibex
yes i believe so
desert jay
I feel like guard is going to lose regimental attaches in the codex update
Yeah those models haven't been sold in a while
desert jay
And FTR, currently at 2000 pts guard can legally take 335 models
floral herald
That's pretty good
thin ibex
i think most armies struggle to slaughter that many models; but its easy to roadblock that many models
desert jay
And if you're not doing conversions, it will absolutely tax your ability to distinguish Cadian Shock Troops from Infantry Squads
thin ibex
i do think comp armies focus pretty hard into the higher str/higher ap special weapons so are less suited for hordesmashing
desert jay
(There's no official "Infantry Squad" kit but the Cadian kit is compatible)
hybrid oyster
I mean, either take HWTs with each infantry squad to help distinguish, or paint them differently
desert jay
The 335-man list is 120 Catachans, 5-man command squad, and then a mix of 210 Cadians and Infantry
thin ibex
squad/platoon markings seem a norm
i definitely plan to be marking my different squads on my tau with their own marks
so that i know who is in what squad
hybrid oyster
I paint each squad a different color scheme for infinate chaos
untold swallow
question
floral herald
And if you're not doing conversions, it will *absolutely* tax your ability to di...
What's the difference anyway? 2x special weapons vs a HWT?
untold swallow
due to revelations I have been given about eldar lore and how there are some dark eldar whose focus isn't turning every murder into torture, just killing
are ynnari armies like
a thing?
desert jay
Infantry Squads have slightly more flexible weapon options, also a different unit rule
untold swallow
I know Yvraine can lead units from either list
bold halo
yvraine is the ynnari army
thin ibex
some drukhari go corsair
floral herald
Oh I guess shock troops get sticky objectives
thin ibex
and are just more sadistic pirates
floral herald
are ynnari armies like
yes?
thin ibex
rather htan like torture murder fiends
hybrid oyster
2x special weapons+drumfed autogun option on the sgt vs HWT + special weapon+power sword/plasma pistol option on the sgt.
floral herald
Idk what you mean by a thing
untold swallow
Can you field an army with both craftworld and drukhari units
hybrid oyster
and the cadian squad has sticky obj and the inf squad has cover on obj
desert jay
Yeah but it's 11 or 12 Cadian/Infantry squads in that list, I think squad markings only go so far
bold halo
yes
floral herald
No they're not that competitive if that's what you're asking
bold halo
that's yvraine
floral herald
But yeah you can combine them
untold swallow
Oh can you only do that with Yvraine?
bold halo
they're reasonably competitive, a bunch of lists have been putting up okay results
floral herald
You don't need Yvraine
thin ibex
ynnari are spcifically both craftworld and drukhari
i believe to field ynnari you DO need to bring yvraine as your warlord actually
untold swallow
yep
mental birch
Oh!
untold swallow
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
hybrid oyster
As long as you base the same models can still look somewhat cohesive.
mental birch
Played against necrons today
untold swallow
Yvraine is cool but ack
mental birch
Farsight vs necrons
untold swallow
No like named characters in armies
mental birch
Farsight murdered an overlords and his retinue with sustained 2 burst cannons and his plasma
hybrid oyster
kitbash models into being genericified
then take the named character sheet but dont call them that
its what like 60% of guard players do for the lord solar
untold swallow
kitbash models into being genericified
My brain just doesn't like that, it feels like a... faux pas? to take a named character's statblock and give it to what amounts to an oc
jaunty dawn
rip
untold swallow
I brought 15 crisis suits
lordy
jaunty dawn
fundamentally i think if gw wont let you take the stuff that named characters have/make them literally mandatory for many armies its like
theres not really another option
thin ibex
I brought 15 crisis suits
rock n roll
jaunty dawn
its a like
untold swallow
Fuck it I'll do it for this list
jaunty dawn
vaunted tradition in the hobby besides
untold swallow
And for the extremely cool prospect of fuckin
mandrakes and banshees
the most terrifying charge known to the 40k galaxy
floral herald
they're reasonably competitive, a bunch of lists have been putting up okay resul...
Oh neat, I saw a big win a while ago but I thought it was mostly a pile of phoenix lords these days
bold halo
yeah like this was a first place list from june
bold halo
there's other ynnari lists as well, this is just the most recent I saw
untold swallow
```Autarch Wayleaper (130pts): Fate's Messenger, Howling Banshee Mask, Banshee B...
mine is gonna be this list but what if I changed like half of it to Mandrakes and Incubi XD
bold halo
turns out yvraine's kind of good and being able to cherry pick units from two armies is also good
floral herald
Yeah Yvraine is actually really solid as a character
I'm curious what she attaches to in this list
bold halo
mandrakes, reavers, scourges all show up pretty regularly
untold swallow
and troupes, voidscarred, and wyches
untold swallow
what the fuck admiral
untold swallow
I've never seen a t'au list like that <XD
Admittedly I play T'au
apparently strangely
mental birch
I'm a goofy lady who loves mechs
floral herald
All Aeldari battleline iirc
I mean in that list
mental birch
I did conceded to 1 unit of pathfinders, a cheeky Carnivore unit and their dog
floral herald
Which doesn't really have much for her
bold halo
that list straight up has nothing for her to attach to
floral herald
lol
bold halo
yvraine's decent but sometimes she's also just the ynnari list tax lol
floral herald
I was wondering if it was like the Incubi or something
I guess she's just a tax there yeah
untold swallow
I mean in that list
Oh she's leading my block of Voidscarred
hybrid oyster
My brain just doesn't like that, it feels like a... faux pas? to take a named ch...
if im basically forced to use the statblock of a model because its pretty much integral to the army, I might as well make them my cool model if I dont want to use the actual model/name
thin ibex
i feel like stealthsuits are the bette spotter, but pahtfinders are great because they're are efficient spotters
bold halo
throw 2+ anti infantry 2+ shots at things until she dies I guess
untold swallow
fairs
mental birch
Though my opponent made thr grave error
Of concentrating firepower into one part of the battlefield
Allowing me to strike with the short blade
floral herald
Oh she's leading my block of Voidscarred
#1161696278640594954 message Talking about this one
untold swallow
oooooohhhh
thin ibex
do the sunforged handle armor decently well?
mental birch
That his 10 necron blob with
floral herald
oooooohhhh
Your list makes sense - she's "traditionally" with a big blob of high PPM models
mental birch
do the sunforged handle armor decently well?
2 sunforged with guidance and a single riptide dropped 2 doomsday arks in 1 turn
And the next turn dropped his Ctan
thin ibex
that says yes to me xD
mental birch
that says yes to me xD
The attached commander really helped
junior robin
oh fun, they made my skaven army unplayable as well 
hybrid oyster
I have a list of models to use for a tau army which is funny because pretty much every model starts in deep strike, infiltrate, or the 3 that dont start in a transport. The only issue is I have a ton of units to spot with and not enough units to spot for.
junior robin
how does this keep happening.
thin ibex
oh does anyone have advice on how to find/get replacement crisis guns? I figure a tau bits box or something might be good but where do i find those
hybrid oyster
10 infiltrate, 1 deepstrike unit, and 3 transport units.
bold halo
unironically 3d printing
hybrid oyster
^
thin ibex
i do not have a 3d printer
floral herald
3d printing or a 3d party reseller
thin ibex
and it feels like
hybrid oyster
you could also try bluestuff+uv cure resin or milliput.
thin ibex
spending the money on a 3d a printer for some crisis guns seems a bit silly
floral herald
https://www.bitzstore.com/en/search?controller=search&s=crisis+suit
Something like this
bold halo
shouts to gw making the cyclic ion blaster the best gun but still only including one bit per box lol
I think they've since rebalanced crisis suits to fix that but it was very funny
junior robin
if 3rd party stuff is not a problem does bits of war have the caste enclave
hybrid oyster
I dont think crisis suits can take those anymore right?
junior robin
for "tau" guns
hybrid oyster
just the commanders
hybrid oyster
oof
thin ibex
Would just be nice
To be able to put guns on them to indicate which type of squad they are
I might be able to cannibalize some guns from other sprues too
hybrid oyster
my shitty idea for a tau list is:
Shadowsun
Coldstar Commander
1x sunforge suits
3x fully loaded breacherfish
3x stealth suits
3x ghostkeels
3x pathfinders
oops all infiltrate
win by turn 2 or die by turn 2
bold halo
the classic tau strat of deploying closer to the enemy than usual
hybrid oyster
theyll never see it coming
floral herald
If you forward deploy you can have more space to run away 
hybrid oyster
everything is just in a line 9 inches away from the deployment zone
thin ibex
My irl list isn't skewed in any direction for tau
hybrid oyster
one easy way to get your warhammer games finished in less than 2 hours.
jaunty dawn
i hope kt24 gets rules for the into the dark expansion bits
i wonder if the heavy bolter turret would be op if it was just an equipment option
mental birch
My irl list isn't skewed in any direction for tau
My irl list is mecha mecha
thin ibex
I got
Enforcer commander
Ethereal
Fireblade
Crisis team - Probably the plas/ missile combo
Pathfinders
Strike Team
Breacher team
2x stealth team
Farstalkers
Broadside
Ghostkeel
Devilfish
hybrid oyster
I feel like elite teams in KT are going to get nerfed. they got so much better from the last edition
mental birch
I'm considering switching out triptide for trip keel but not sure if relevant
thin ibex
Effectively I have the old combat patrol + the star strider battle box from a few years back + pathfinder and farstalker kill teams + 1 broadside
My next purchase will probably be a hammerhead
I have a decently rounded collection cause it's mostly made up of two boxes xD
untold swallow
Yvraine: Warlord
Autarch Wayleaper: Fate's Messenger, Mandiblasters, Banshee Blade, Fusion Pistol
Beastmaster
Farseer: The Phoenix Gem, Witchblade
Spiritseer: The Weeping Stones
1x Voidscarred Felarch: Shuriken pistol
1x Way Seeker
4x Voidscarred w/ pistol and sword
3x Voidscarred w/ rifle
1x Voidscarred with ranger long rifle
4x Howling Banshee
1x Howling Banshee Exarch: Executioner and Shuriken Pistol
4x Howling Banshee
1x Howling Banshee Exarch: Executioner and Shuriken Pistol
4x Howling Banshee
1x Howling Banshee Exarch: Executioner and Shuriken Pistol
4x Incubi
1x Klaivex: Demiklaves
4x Incubi
1x Klaivex: Demiklaves
4x Incubi
1x Klaivex: Demiklaves
4x Mandrake
1x Nightfiend
4x Mandrake
1x Nightfiend
4x Mandrake
1x Nightfiend
5x Ranger
5x Ranger
4x Striking Scorpion
1x Striking Scorpion Exarch: Scorpion's claw and scorpion chainsword
4x Striking Scorpion
1x Striking Scorpion Exarch: Scorpion's claw and scorpion chainsword
10x Wraithblade: Ghostswords```Least cursed Ynnari listI do like that Mandrakes have a ranged attack that's just shooting fire
That isn't Psychic
So it's just
'What the fuck gave them that'
untold swallow
I hate that that kind of ruins them for me cuz god Illidan is... fuckin boring
jaunty dawn
isnt illidan a mandrake
rather than the other way around
if anything
mandrakes are cannibals???????
oh no yeah mandrakes became illidian in 5th edition long after warcraft3
before they were...
this
bright dove
Gimp Suit Deldar
bold halo
that's just deldar
mental birch
isnt illidan a mandrake
It's just really funny go say they're illidan
bold halo
ngl a big part of why I haven't gone in on ynnari is any time I think of deldar units I think of those old jank 3e models that were out when I picked up the game
I'm sure the new sculpts are all great but I just see pointy boys
untold swallow
new mandrakes fuck
I also love that they're fucking
yokai-fey?
"Mandrakes can be deployed by Archons for taking out or guarding strategic objectives for unusual payments: a treasured memory, a heartbeat, a true and secret name, and other odd esoteric ephemera."
granite basin
love the movement in these sculpts
jaunty dawn
It's just really funny go say they're illidan
no having checked the timeline mandrakes are absolutely illidan
bold halo
biggest improvement might be the talos like damn
untold swallow
I'm noticing I don't like putting vehicles or mounted units in my lists
mental birch
no having checked the timeline mandrakes are absolutely illidan
I was only joking dammit ahahhahaha
Beyond the huh thus looks a lot like a demon hunter
bold halo
yeah the mandrakes didn't look like this until 2010
even world of warcraft illidan had been dead and in the ground for an expansion by the time those sculpts hit
jaunty dawn
yee
bold halo
their deal is nobody really knows what their deal is
jaunty dawn
and cannibalism apparently
honestly a little bit like flayed ones in just having weird and unexplained powers
untold swallow
Their deal is being weird yokai-fey mercenaries who can shoot fire
that isn't psychic fire
Which
Is odd and intrigues me
untold swallow
in ynnari armies, can the units use whichever transport they want, or can a raider still only carry drukhari?
past sphinx
Mandrakes holding the long tradition of being one of those designs young me just though where so cool
Like terry Bogard or link
Turns out I just had a thing for blonde dudes with long hair
mental birch
Turns out I just had a thing for blonde dudes with long hair
Surprised you didn't latch onto zero
untold swallow
lol
past sphinx
Nah never played megaman
thin ibex
in ynnari armies, can the units use whichever transport they want, or can a raid...
i dont believe so, transports retain their transport restrictions
mental birch
Nah never played megaman
past sphinx
That would've done it
uneven ember
oh whats the deal with mandrakes actually
They're some kind of shadow-Eldar who live in part of the City that's partly in the Webway and partly in some creepy shadow dimension
They were caught in it and transformed, or they were a pre-Fall cult that went into the shadow and came back wrong, or they're what you get when a mommy Eldar and a daddy shadow demon are four eightballs in and want to make a bad life choice
The Mandrakes aren't telling and nobody really wants to know badly enough to push the issue, those dudes are creepy
floral herald
that isn't *psychic* fire
That’s not that weird - pink horror fire isn’t psychic either
untold swallow
i dont believe so, transports retain their transport restrictions
p a i n
untold swallow
That’s not that weird - pink horror fire isn’t psychic either
fair but they're explicitly daemonic entities while mandrakes are
'? ? ?'
floral herald
Aiui they’re sorta daemonic but for the shade-daemons of aelindrach
untold swallow
That is one of the leading theories, ye
Yvraine (125pts): Kha-vir, the Sword of Sorrows, Storm of Whispers, Warlord
Archon (85pts): Huskblade, Splinter Pistol
Autarch Wayleaper (130pts): Fate's Messenger, Mandiblasters, Banshee Blade, Fusion Pistol
Farseer (115pts): Eldritch Storm, Shuriken Pistol, The Phoenix Gem, Witchblade
Troupe Master (70pts): The Weeping Stones, Troupe Master's Blade, Fusion Pistol
10x Corsair Voidscarred (160pts)
5x Howling Banshees (70pts)
5x Howling Banshees (70pts)
5x Howling Banshees (70pts)
10x Incubi (170pts)
5x Mandrakes (70pts)
5x Mandrakes (70pts)
5x Mandrakes (70pts)
5x Troupe (75pts)
2x Warlock Conclave (55pts)
3x Shroud Runners (80pts)
3x Shroud Runners (80pts)
Vyper (75pts): Twin Shuriken Catapult, Wraithbone hull, Shuriken Cannon
Raider (80pts): Bladevanes, Dark Lance
Starweaver (80pts): Close Combat Weapon, 2x Shuriken Cannon
Wave Serpent (110pts): Wraithbone Hull, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Twin Shuriken Cannon```Modified the Ynnari list to more heavily feature Deldar stuff and added some Harlequins for funsiesBanshees as tarpits, mandrakes as... annoying, Yvraine the Visarch and the voidscarred embarked in the wave serpent, archon and incubi in the raider to do dark eldar things, troupe in the starweaver as an icbm gambit, farseer and warlock conclave kind of meant to hang around and support, shroud runners to snipe, vyper to use my last 75 points
Oh forgot why the wayleaper was there uh
winged eldar cool
Much kill character, much wow
ebon forge
Zero over here being a pioneer saying not only girls have boobs by sporting his green tits proudly /j
ebon forge
My absolute favorite megaman series
"I had a good life" will always go hard
And Zero looking tired all the time is a mood
Anyway, is true that in Lords of Silence the Death Guard ship literally shitted an enemy ship to death?
untold swallow
I have made the most fun discovery
Both kill teams I want to play
Are in the same box :3
floral herald
Is it the Nightmare box?
untold swallow
Nope, which means it's not sold anymore :'D
floral herald
Oh, which one is it?
untold swallow
Nachmund, Legionaries vs Corsairs
floral herald
Nightmare is basically impossible to get now it’s scalper only
Oh yeah Nachmund is gonna be hard
The KT launch boxes don’t get restocked just the team boxes
Which is kinda annoying
untold swallow
well, good news
Both teams are sold individually
It's just that
Voidscarred are on the normal fuckin Eldar page lmao
Cuz they also double as the Voidscarred unit
floral herald
Yeah there’s some weird stuff there
floral herald
I think Voidscarred got a refreshed KT box?
I know Legionaries did
I haven't seen Voidscarred as much but I really like legionaries
finite compass
rocky shale
I think Voidscarred got a refreshed KT box?
They did
rocky shale
Banshees as tarpits, mandrakes as... annoying, Yvraine the Visarch and the voids...
A 10-11 clown troupe with yvraine and optionally visarch in a wave serpent is a great mobile tarpit
4++, 5+++, with regen is crazy
floral herald
Yeah Yvraine clowncars are great
Eldar struggle to tarpit in general but that's one of the best ones you can get
untold swallow
But muh voidscarred 
rocky shale
I also love voidscarred whivh is why I let them frolic free in kill team where they are most comfortable
floral herald
Voidscarred are also pretty good as an attache for her
The big thing is just to make it expensive
jaunty dawn
kt 24 doesnt have narrative rules yet right
rocky shale
Voidscarred are also pretty good as an attache for her
They're probably the best ranged option for her
floral herald
kt 24 doesnt have narrative rules yet right
No campaign rules yet
rocky shale
Troupe is the best melee
jaunty dawn
other than the themed campaign from the dossier I guess. but not a spec op campaign thing
floral herald
Yeah there's supposed to be a campaign book soon. ish
jaunty dawn
i played kroot v pathfinders with my parent today
idk how different 24 felt overall?
its just a lot of little things really
next time I wanna take the confirm kill tac op cause its fun to imagine it being kroot eating ppl :d
floral herald
I think the biggest difference overall is free order flips in TP1 and no early scoring
jaunty dawn
ohh yeah for sure
I think, without much experience really but meh, the swapping of rogue and order flips on farstalkers makes sense to me
cause I dont think I wouldve spent cp on the order flip very often
untold swallow
Troupe is the best melee
I think I'm gonna keep with the voidscarred for the flavor (this Yvraine and Visarch are counts-as anyways)
jaunty dawn
whereas rogue or not is a much more interesting choice. to me
jaunty dawn
the kroot order flip is pretty cool tho
ummm
pretty cool
got like 3 people buffed by the quarry thing, and then I had run out of dudes near my kill broker
misplayed some of the models but first time it happens
the sniper is so good
especially on gallowdark where theres a lot of heavy cover around
and firefights from doorways across rooms
ohh just realised I had a tactical ploy to flip objectives even when I dont control them (secure crit op), thats funny
floral herald
Ohh yeah the Gallowdark sniper is surprisingly menacing
jaunty dawn
didnt get to use the pistolier (badly badly misplayed) but range 8 does feel significantly better than range 6
and being able to stack toxin and piercing was really interesting. with warrior you can still use one of the ammos again
floral herald
Kroot seem really vulnerable to misplays yeah
Lots of fragile relatively short ranged models
jaunty dawn
i primaried kill ops which was a bad idea cause we mostly just traded
floral herald
Yeah that might not be ideal for Kroot in general too
I think they're still more of an Objective Team KT
jaunty dawn
mhm
but yeah meat was pretty useful too for clearing injured
and those three equipment being good makes warriors pretty good, and Id be tempted to take warriors over hounds if I had the same matchup again
not really convinced by the scattergun on warrior though I think
new toxin shot is actually kinda wild since it doesnt reduce damage anymore. in addition to you getting 4/8 uses per battle
floral herald
I just finished building the non-Reiver models for my Phobos Team and I wanna try them out
And they're kinda cousins to the kroot
Relatively poor firepower and stealth tricks
jaunty dawn
they seem pretty fun
oh phobos get a faction equip thats just 4 utility grenades instead of 2 thats wild
floral herald
yeah so many smokes and bangs
Probably mostly smokes
Since your best shooters ignore smoke
jaunty dawn
makes sense
no throwing knives anymore
and costs a ploy to get the guerilla warfare action
interesting
floral herald
I think that one's a net gain because it used to be that Gorilla Warfare was free and shoot twice was a CP
jaunty dawn
yeah for sure
I'm really excited to play with the hivestorm stuff but it's all on paint tables atmmm
untold swallow
You know
Howling Banshees would make good corsairs just
natively
The skillset is honestly quite similar
sword and pistol
fast attacks
scare the shit out of people
pastel rampart
You forgot "lesbians."
untold swallow
tru
untold swallow
well Khaine is aiui a definitively male god
untold swallow
I think the explanation there is 'This is an aspect of Morai-Heg, fuck you.'
jaunty dawn
yeah but it got stuck in him
so it's like
still khaine. just khaine being little a genderfluid. as a curse
untold swallow
so
reading on lexicanum
It was payment for cutting off Morai-Heg's hand so she could drink her blood of knowledge
Though it should be noted that the Banshees are but one of the two Aspects which require supplicants to take on a certain gender, the other being the Dire Avenger, whose supplicants must all purport to be men
oooooor that is old lore
jaunty dawn
wait do they?
aiui its like
all aspect warriors are "male" but that's a persona adopted when you go on the path
other than howling banshees but they work the same
but it's also kinda like
really more like everyone is a variant of khaine gender which is mainly 'masculine' but has a notable 'feminine' aspect, and like eldar dont really have a gender binary
just khaine gender
but like, path of the gardener eldar are probably all isha gender (at least whle on the path)
untold swallow
While that is a valid read I will not deny you, I don't see it that way
jaunty dawn
but overall it's the complication of like 40 years of lore written by ppl with little knowledge of gender politics nor really like. consistency cause there's been a shift more recently
jaunty dawn
like at one point it's 100% lore that howling banshees are mainly afab women lady girls and the rest of the army at large just happens to be mainly amab manly boy dudes despite the fact it's an alien society
but the like, gender as part of the aspect thing has been used more recently
untold swallow
I personally think of the Paths as like
Different ascetic lifestyles
idk I feel like if you wanna go down the road of Path or Aspect genders you gotta make your own hay about it versus looking at the text
Because as you said
40 years of lore written by people by and large not really intending to examine gender politics
untold swallow
What would be good proxies for Yvraine and the Visarch?
My immediate instinct is just get the Visarch, Drazhar, and Eldrad and just kitbash the fuck out of them
rocky shale
What would be good proxies for Yvraine and the Visarch?
Specifically GW options for proxies?
Shouldn't be too hard to find the actual models for both of those
Kitbashing an autarch with voidscarred bits would be good for visarch
For yvraine there are some good 3d party sculpts out there, but you do need to get her on a oval base
untold swallow
Specifically GW options for proxies?
They're going to be counts-as, not actually Yvraine and the Visarch
rocky shale
They're going to be counts-as, not actually Yvraine and the Visarch
For yvraine you could look at like lumineth realm lords models from AoS and plop them on an oval base.
Visarch Id do an autarch with some corsair/deldar bits
rocky shale
Yeah, that's the best source for more elves in flowy robes
I have a enlightener that I use as a spiritseer
untold swallow
one of my planned bashes when I was starting to think of getting in the hobby was an enlightener with a farseer helmet on it lmao
rocky shale
A cathallar could be good as yvraine
untold swallow
too much princess not enough warrior if you catch my meaning <XD
untold swallow
I have found a model I could kitbash with some Visarch parts to make the part of the Visarch
untold swallow
It also could be used to lend tragedy or coolness factor
oh does that mean he's scaled differently?
Feck
rocky shale
I don't think he's huge, just a really wide stance
untold swallow
I think if I ever do make this army
And feel like splurging
I'd probably kitbash Eltharion and Visarch together
To give the Visarch proxy like
rocky shale
Honestly a visarch proxy just needs to be a fancy dude with a sword
uneven ember
I don't think he's huge, just a really wide stance
aelfspreading
untold swallow
*elgispreading
past sphinx
finally the only true holy site in american
uneven ember
i
past sphinx
i saw it going to a bible camp once and it was the most religious experience i had that week
untold swallow
Yvraine (125pts): Kha-vir, the Sword of Sorrows, Storm of Whispers, Warlord
Archon (85pts): Huskblade, Splinter Pistol
Autarch Wayleaper (130pts): Fate's Messenger, Mandiblasters, Banshee Blade, Fusion Pistol
Shadowseer (75pts): Miststave, The Weeping Stones, Shuriken Pistol
10x Corsair Voidscarred (160pts)
10x Howling Banshees (140pts)
10x Incubi (170pts)
10x Mandrakes (130pts)
10x Scourges (180pts)
12x Troupe (180pts)
3x Shroud Runners (80pts)
Raider (80pts): Bladevanes, Dark Lance
Wave Serpent (110pts): Wraithbone Hull, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Twin Shuriken Cannon```If this is my current list what should I add that would be fun for flavor?The reason the troupe is a full 12 man is cuz the shadowseer makes it 13
to the Yvraine and Visarch and Voidscarred's 12
and the Archon and Incubi's 11
rocky shale
Jain zar with the banshees?
rocky shale
Yvraine does have some lore about what she does to wraith constructs so that could be neat
untold swallow
Wraiths is a good pull
rocky shale
Are you gonna run those scourges not as msu? They only get 4 heavy weapons regardless of squad size.
untold swallow
msu?
rocky shale
Min squad size
untold swallow
I mean I'm running nothing at msu lol
rocky shale
5 scourges get 4 heavy weapons but if you take 10 they still only get 4, the other guys get shitty guns
untold swallow
eh, fair
rocky shale
Similar with the banshees if no jain zar, it let's them get more exarch weapons
untold swallow
apparently according to this list builder I can't have Jain Zar lmao
rocky shale
As for the list, ravagers are thematic and give you more heavy weapons. Falcons could also be good if you had some smaller squads to deep strike
Ohhhhh wait yeah it's the lore fail
Ynnari can't take phoenix lords even tho jain zar is an ally in lore
untold swallow
what would Jain Zar have done?
rocky shale
Send her with the banshees in a wave serpent to be a nuke
Or with 5 banshees in a falcon for a deep strike missile
untold swallow
fair
rocky shale
Banshees in a falcon or 5 troupe+troupe master in a falcon are both pretty good deep strike threats
That list needs some sort of good tanky unit and a bit more anti tank IMO
floral herald
Jain zar with the banshees?
Can't take Ynnari and Jain Zar unfortunately
rocky shale
Can't take Ynnari and Jain Zar unfortunately
Yeahhhh, the lore fail
floral herald
Yeah it's dumb
rocky shale
Haywire?
untold swallow
haywires
rocky shale
Haywire and dark lances both have thier uses
The short range makes them a little harder to use but they do shred vehicles
floral herald
Scourges do also just get DLances yeah
untold swallow
are those generally regarded as better, even vs vehicles?
rocky shale
Lances do worse against invuln on vehicles
untold swallow
also in terms of deepstrike missiles
those incubi and that archon are on that Raider
rocky shale
The lances will be better against light/medium vehicles without weirdly high invuln. The haywires will be best against heavy tanks.
Oh and the haywires also fall flat against tough monsters without the vehicle keyword
untold swallow
what I could do
If we want more deepstrike missiles
is split the banshees in two
and of course a falcon each if I can swing it
Which I think I can?
I can lesgoooo
god all my shit is in transports except the Scourges the Troupe and the Mandrakes lmao
floral herald
Oh and the haywires also fall flat against tough monsters without the vehicle ke...
This is the biggest problem with them yeah
I think vs most vehicles they actually just outshoot Dlances
But something like a Carnifex or even Prince just laughs them off
untold swallow
What passes for my anti monster is
hope and prayers
And like
a wave serpent
Yvraine (125pts): Kha-vir, the Sword of Sorrows, Storm of Whispers, Warlord
Archon (85pts): Huskblade, Splinter Pistol
Autarch Wayleaper (130pts): Fate's Messenger, Mandiblasters, Banshee Blade, Fusion Pistol
Shadowseer (75pts): Miststave, The Weeping Stones, Shuriken Pistol
10x Corsair Voidscarred (160pts)
5x Howling Banshees (70pts)
5x Howling Banshees (70pts)
10x Incubi (170pts)
10x Mandrakes (130pts)
5x Scourges (120pts)
12x Troupe (180pts)
3x Reavers (65pts)
3x Shroud Runners (80pts)
Falcon (130pts): Pulse Laser, Wraithbone hull, Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Catapult
Falcon (130pts): Pulse Laser, Wraithbone hull, Shuriken Cannon, Twin Shuriken Catapult
Raider (80pts): Bladevanes, Dark Lance
Wave Serpent (110pts): Wraithbone Hull, Twin Shuriken Catapult, Twin Shuriken Cannon```So this is what I have nowYvraine, Visarch and Voidscarred in the Wave Serpent, Howling Banshees in the Falcons, Archon and Incubi on the Raider
Wayleaper to basically dive into whatever fight is the juiciest or second juiciest, Mandrakes to do Mandrake shit, Shadowseer and Troupe to become a tarpit you need to engage, Scourges to kill vehicles, Shroud Runners to snipe characters, Reavers
Cuz I had the 65 points
The best reason to have a unit
rocky shale
Wayleaper to basically dive into whatever fight is the juiciest or second juicie...
Thoughts on using solitaire instead of the wayleaper? Wayleaper is normally taken for its warlord ability which it won't get in ynnari
They are exactly the same cost and the solitaire is a way bigger threat in melee
rocky shale
Wait really?
Aaaaaaa
Yeah wayleaper doesn't do much in ynnari
Maybe a death jester then?
untold swallow
I think Death Jesters look too silly <XD
I'm already gonna proxy the shadowseer by smashing the helmet on a farseer
untold swallow
They does nots
I wish you could attach an Autarch to literally anything but Guardians
I suppose you could do a windrider autarch
untold swallow
Oh not as a loner
rocky shale
You basically get a lone op fast character that can maybe fight a small squad of infantry without dying
untold swallow
I would also then replace the reavers with windriders to stick it to
Oh well I'll have a wayleaper in my normal aeldari army then
rocky shale
The main issue with the autarch on bike is thag it's a melee threat in a fire-and-fade wanting squad
rocky shale
Oh well I'll have a wayleaper in my normal aeldari army then
Yeah that's worth having
untold swallow
if only it could attach to shining spears, gw
fuck it, farseer and a conclave lmao
rocky shale
Tbh eldrad and a conclave isn't terrible coming out of a falcon
floral herald
I need to clean this sucker up
I think its ok but it was really stretched to fit the models I had haha
rocky shale
Eldrad and a conclave out of a falcon can use +1 to wound and wound rerolls to get flamer hits on surprisingly tough targets
rocky shale
I need to clean this sucker up
I see you don't have many vehicles lmao
floral herald
no none of them have been stocked anywhere until recently
untold swallow
ahhhh
faaaaiiiirrr
I currently do not have the points to swing a farseer into eldrad and also shove them in a Falcon
floral herald
no none of them have been stocked anywhere until recently
Lore wise they're also a fairly scrappy run down warband so low vehicles is ok
But there's some good ass tanks for CSM
runic swallow
Honestly I always liked the autocannon pred, wasn’t as good as the lacannon but was a good all-rounder (and back in the day was a bit cheaper)
Im still kinda a grognard “back in my day” about the removing item/upgrade point costs
floral herald
Yeah I don't like that removal
runic swallow
It feels like it eliminates a whole “well, it’s what I can make do with, let’s see how it goes” level of list building thinking and items because it costs nothing to upgrade the sergeant to a power sword and plasma pistol now
Rather than going “well, if I don’t upgrade these guy I might be able to fit in this upgrade on that guy or maybe even this whole other unit”
Like, there still gonna be that kind of analysis but it’s at a bigger level now rather than “I dunno, does this team really need melta bombs?”
…oh man this really is how you become a back in my day grognard, isn’t it
But I’m right
past sphinx
the autocannon, when you have to compromise instead of just using the concentrated power of sunny D
runic swallow
Consider though: THUD THUD THUD THUD is cooler that FREEEM
past sphinx
The Bradley is interwar tank of the gwot
Unfairly maligned due to it being built to fight a war it was never in
Until of course jt didn't actually fight that war under a different flag and 70 years late
runic swallow
I mean it did exactly what it was meant to in the Gulf War (destroy Soviet tanks and transport dudes)
past sphinx
James burton (derogatory)
The Philippines did some m113 upgrades are they are very interesting
runic swallow
I also have a soft spot for the M113 due to its boxy shape and numerous (often kinda odd) upgrade packages
past sphinx
They also still have a shitload of grease guns
runic swallow
Also, the Rhino has gotta be a knockoff M113 the same way a Chimera is a mutant BMP + the original Bradley’s port firing weapons
past sphinx
Don't gw have a dresser up m113 infront of their home office?
runic swallow
Probably as a rhino, yeah
thin ibex
i feel the issue i have with everything costing points and so on is that it has a lot of fake choices
cause even when things were all points costed, there were often just "the best choice" and i rarely felt like points balanced them out meaningfully
im not saying the current set up properly balances stuff against each other, but without costs it makes more sense t ome
as an incentive to have them be balanced against each other
instead of getting away with "yes its worse in every way but it costs less"
floral herald
I mean that’s a meaningful trade off a lot of the time
runic swallow
The big deal is often “kitted out dudes” or “more dudes”
Or dudes able to multi-task or cheaper dudes
It was a definite trade off
Like, yes, on paper there was a better option, but you’re still weighing the “I could add another guy to the squad for that price, or put two of these in instead”
Now it’s just “why ever give a Sargent a bolt pistol, why even stat the bolt pistol, everyone will choose the plasma pistol because it’s free”
When previously that upgrade could mean whether you add a dude to a squad or not
thin ibex
i often encountered the situation where, even when everything costed points
the game was
"i need as many lascannons/melta guns as god sees fit to let me stuff into a list
runic swallow
Yeah, but that’s not really different now and there’s less tradeoffs to doing that
thin ibex
i guess thats kinda my point, in that the difference is kinda moot, and the current set up encourages all the choices being a meaningful pick, even though it fails at that a bit
runic swallow
Well, I’m saying that you get to have your cake and eat it too in the current way, when previously you had to make choices between putting in one thing or another
thin ibex
(or like, at least for me, id much rather the chainsword be a par choice rather than a just worse but cheaper choice)
of course using hte chainsowrd as the example, it is still mostly just worse and not any cheaper
runic swallow
Some people did decide to go for more cheap options and if you can use some cheap guys to kill and elite expensive guy it could really work
Now everyone is kitted to the gills and you ignore half the choices anyways
It’s the worst of both
bright dove
When Armor Facing was a thing, you had to weigh if you wanted the lascannons or if you just wanted to rely on positioning and have a good enough chance with an autcannon against everything that wasn't a Land Raider or Monolith.
thin ibex
i think the current trend rather than current poisition is actually that there are fewer choices and those choices are more meaningful; as opposed ot more frequent less impactful choices
runic swallow
Again, you didn’t used to run a power sword and plasma pistol tactical Sargent because that was points better spent elsewhere, now you always do because you have no reason not to
Unless you had specific reason to do so, which made it part of making a plan
thin ibex
but also the power sword isnt as much of a power weapon as it was either, on a comparative
runic swallow
Now it’s just everyone gets everything
If the argument is that everything was “best option” before, all it seems to me removing item/upgrade points did is supercharge it rather than fix it
Again, why ever even include the bolt pistol as an option when they have the ability to take a plasma pistol, since literally everyone (unless they’re using older models they made when these choices mattered) would use the plasma pistol
thin ibex
i think the argument is more that there was, even in the old way, still generally just a best option and it was that or nothing
a lot of the "options" were kind of fake choices mechanically
runic swallow
But that was just in a vacuum, you had to look at what taking that would mean for other stuff
You could choose the “best” options all the time and then your opponent who chose the okay options would have a notable numerical advantage, which mattered for board control and just having more bodies to deal with
Like, yes, a plasma pistol is the “best” option, but what about getting another guy in the squad instead?
Oh, you could get melta bombs, but if you do that you’re just a few points under putting a predator in with your current list
Stuff like that
thin ibex
you also had units that, if you didn't take certain upgrades, didn't really have a role
a false mandatory
runic swallow
I think throwing out point costs like that is an overreaction rather than just fixing that issue
You’re just going “yeah these are options we shouldn’t include, they’re just there because someone might want to play suboptimal/they have old models “
thin ibex
i personally think the issue you're making for the current costing system/dynamic is a bit hyperbolic, I trend to thinking the way they made the points costs somewhat reflected the realities of the way armies were being built in the editions prior
namely 8th and 9th
floral herald
I don’t think there’s any way that having fewer levers for making more options competitive makes there be more competitive options
thin ibex
I don't think more levers inclines each lever to actually have an impact on competitive strategy
More levers for more levers sake accomplishes the same thing as fewer levers
runic swallow
This very much doesn’t seem like it’s working if the intent was to increase the diversity of options
Because now there’s even less incentive not to always choose the lascannon over the autocannon for example
Having something cost more is a major way to limit it, or at least have people strongly consider what they’re missing out in by using it
tired cairn
I think points is an easy lever to balance things. But I don't think it's a necessary one
thin ibex
I dunno, at least for one example, I pick the power fist, say. I'm not punished for not picking the thunder hammer.
Or on the armored sentinel let's say, in regard to your example of the Las vs auto, I take the auto because I get 2 shots on the 4+ instead of 1, I get flat damage, and thanks to my special rule I can reroll the wound on hard targets. I could take the Las, but the plasma and the auto are both effective choices too
tired cairn
Kill Team doesn't use points and I'm under the impression balance is ok?
Or was anyways lol
I do think some weapon choices are such different roles it's hard to balance them without points
Or there are too many options that don't really matter (e.g. for leader weapons) that balance is basically impossible
thin ibex
On the Rogal Dorn, as another example, the twin battle and the heavier gun are actually a meaningful choice against each other. Not because one is strictly better or worse and the other is more expensive or cheaper; they're both effective weapons that can meaningfully accomplish something on the vehicle
runic swallow
I’d say that the cascade effect of how choosing gear effected your point budget helped make list building more interesting, and made there be more deliberate choices in how you approached it
Small choices don’t mean they can’t pile up into something that suddenly means you can’t afford something big
Now there’s still often “best” choices and you just don’t even consider the others because there is no cascade
tired cairn
My medium-hot take is that GW should choose points based on what they want the rarity of something to be, and then only change it as a last resort; preferring changing stats instead. I think this would lead to more interesting balance and not just turning everything into a horde army if they made them too weak
thin ibex
I found in the circles I encountered it usually went "stuff what's good, regardless of cost, into the list, then fill around the edges with the cheapest and least loaded out unit you can find. Not because you intend for that unit you bring as a filler to accomplish anything but so you can fill points" now even the cheap units have abilities and effects that can bring value to the table
runic swallow
That’s missing that MSUs were often used to be able to quickly fan out and grab objectives
It’s more than just stats, it’s also about board control
Take two squads rather than one
Or make the choice to make a full size squad and be a little harder to move off an objective
thin ibex
Honestly something I really like about the current set up? I'm not actively punished as much, in a lot of ways, for setting up guys the way I want to instead of the way that's best.
A flattened out power weapon profile instead of 4 different power weapon options with cost and Stat differences was a boon, bringing power axes on space wolves can just be cosmetic for example
runic swallow
And even the good stuff could get overpowered by more okay stuff
thin ibex
Honestly board control hasn't vanished from the game as a value to victory strategy in the current edition?
runic swallow
I’m saying that those MSUs weren’t pointless like you made them out to be
They were often a gamble of spending less on them and more on another thing while still banking on the small units holding objectives
tired cairn
I do find the current setup makes it very easy to put together lists as it is a bit less fiddly. Though some of that is the removal of force orga
thin ibex
I'm not saying they were pointless I'm saying they were after thoughts, and their actual influence beyond bodies on the board was minimal because filler units weren't part of the plan, they were extra, if they do good great, if they don't it's whatever, all the important stuff was already kitted out
runic swallow
I do find the current setup makes it very easy to put together lists as it is a ...
I’m saying that the fiddliness had value basically
tired cairn
I do hate GW's philosophy of "only stuff in the box goes on the unit" because it does not let you specialize units
tired cairn
I’m saying that the fiddliness had value basically
That's fair. No accounting for taste and all that
runic swallow
I'm not saying they were pointless I'm saying they were after thoughts, and the...
I think you’re somewhat wrong on this, they weren’t the primary concern, but they were still the thing people went “yeah, I’ll miss out on bringing more guys to kit up these” which makes them part of the plan
They were an active thought during kitting guys up because they knew they were limiting the points they could spend outside of that
thin ibex
I don't think that was very much the case as of 8th and 9th, in as much as "the dregs of a list are still on the list so it counts as a strategic choice" sense
To be clear I'm not arguing from a position of "the way it is now is better in every way" but I do think the benefits of the current editions choices get smudged with hyperbole to prop up the "good old days" of past editions, when I don't think the good old days were that much better
brittle salmon
I mean, in ways, yes, that's the case with everything that has long running editions and updates
People always have rose tinted goggles about certain things, and nostalgia can put legitimate blinders on people
But I think the points people are making about granular equipment options are valid - yes there's always going to be good or bad options, that's inevitable, but having more control over how much any given entity costs has a huge knock on effect on army construction
10e has done its utmost to bleed out weapon and gear selection, and I think that's genuinely hurt the game
How often do you see infantry blocks in any capacity that's not dead cheap objective holders or very specific detachments these days
I'll tell you, in competitive lists it's Not Often
With no Objective Secured and no force org it's the edition of Nasty Guy Spam
And like, it is what it is
But it's made the game lose a not insignificant amount of texture as a result, imo
floral herald
Kill Team doesn't use points and I'm under the impression balance is ok?
Kill Team is tricky to compare because you lost build after seeing your opponent’s team but it does have a lot of competitive options for some teams
I also agree making swords/axes/maces different power weapons was dumb and over-granular
paper bluff
Sometimes one sees a kitbash and you have to say "damn, I really like that but I don't want to do it"
meager quail
past sphinx
Reject game balance embrace fiddly nonsense
past sphinx
Though the system only really accomplished anything when it was jumppacks or buying shotguns instead of what it became, buying plasma pistols or hunter killers to round out to 2k
spice flicker
How do you feel about someone bringing aircraft to a low point [1000 points or less) game, and multiple at that?
tired cairn
Yeah, aircraft are bad and the person will have basically no board control
OC 0 on what is going to be at least half your points is not great
tired cairn
All airmobile is at least conceptually cool
bright dove
Yeah, bringing aircraft to a 1k game is a "Oh bless your heart" situation.
tired cairn
How do you feel about someone bringing aircraft to a low point [1000 points or l...
Can the aircraft hover?
If not, that person is going to have an extra bad time
spice flicker
They're an eldar player bringing a Crimson hunter and Phoenix
I think it's mostly to prove people wrong about how bad aircraft are and to have some heavy anti-vehicle weaponry
It's not me BTW, just another person I play against sometimes.
tired cairn
I suspect they will have a bad time. But hey, if they are trying to prove a point that's a lesson for them lol
Also, I am probably blind, but I don't see a Phoenix datasheet
Is it not in the app for some reason 🤔
hybrid oyster
I want them to let my valkyrie out of aircraft jail
it shouldnt be 190 pts
just let it be a flying drop unit for 10 scions
spice flicker
How are the guard aircraft besides bad.
hybrid oyster
They're not bad units
They're just overpriced
For the price of fully loading up a valkyrie you might as well take 2 chineras loaded with catachans or generic infantry
floral herald
They also have kinda weird tempo issues from not being able to show up early
But a lot of it is just cost
hybrid oyster
Valk is the only one with hover i think
spice flicker
How about the voss and avenger?
hybrid oyster
Yeah, I'm worried about every guard flier except the valk existing after this codex
thin ibex
good guns, very restricted on timing and cost
bright dove
And of course no objective control
thin ibex
very niche useful as a way to get LoS on toug htargets that are hiding
Tiger Shark and Barracuda have this issue too, though they have it even more pronounced, having good firepower but no board presence and a high cost
desert jay
The "not show up early" I had wondered last year if that wouldn't be too much of an issue for Tau playing into Kayuon, but they still get hit on cost issues
finite compass
Catachan Air Cav is definitely one of my 'if I had infinite time and money' project ideas.
past sphinx
Sadly combined arms warfare is beyond the rules committees mind
thin ibex
you can sort of do combined arms with space marines actually, teh stormraven despite its points nerf can still do work
i wish tau still had a transport aircraft xD
i think tau can do combined arms as well in casuals, but you'll just have to accept that your high cost flier will be a flash in the pan
finite compass
Valkyries get door gunners though
So they're inherently cooler than any other option
thin ibex
my favorite thing about storm ravens is that they release a self contained fighting force with itself as a fire support platform and dreadnought as additional support, melee power, or a bit of both
really sells that fantasy better than the thunderhawk incidentally
though its main problem is the assumption that a dreadnought would at all be a normal part of a fighting force xD
wish it could carry an invictor
past sphinx
Marines having weirdly good flyers is a long tradition it feels
thin ibex
so its not carrying an honored ancient at all times
i enjoy, in concept, running a.. i think its at tiger shark? maybe barricuda, but with a full burst cannon set up
just vomit out like 40 shots with sustained hits 2 on the 3rd round
i suppose itd actually be better with lethal hits on mont ka with that many shots
bright dove
Dakka
thin ibex
still think the tau love affair with what is essentially a gatling gun is very endearing
railguns and gatling guns
begrudgingly ion guns
thin ibex
still think the hammerhead should get the twin burst cannon turret back
i do feel like the railgun and iron turret are poorly balanced against each other
ion*
bright dove
General electric's biggest fans
GE making things that spin to clean other things! 😄
tired cairn
Grav Chute Insertion is such a weird rule
floral herald
For Kill Team or something else?
tired cairn
40k Valk rule
Grav Chute Insertion: At the end of your opponent’s Movement phase, one or more units embarked within this TRANSPORT can disembark from it, provided every model in each of those disembarking units has the Deep Strike ability.
floral herald
Oh yeah that is funky
tired cairn
I guess it lets you contest a point half-a-turn early?
thin ibex
its a weird and kind of interesting sequence break
but i dont know how useful it actually is
i guess its before shooting
so it means they can be out before the valk gets shot down
tired cairn
I think that just gets your stuff squishy infantry shot up lol
jaunty dawn
its like
thin ibex
well your squish infantry, hopefully, are dropping into or behind cover/los blocking, but theres no promises there
tired cairn
Yeah, but you could just get out the next turn
Getting out of a transport before it moves gives full movement abilities iirc
floral herald
I think there's a couple of advantages
You get out before a command phase so you can maybe score more
jaunty dawn
rapid ingress has many benefits yeah
floral herald
Oh, apparently it also makes them order-eligable
Since they're on the board for when orders go out
tired cairn
That part of orders is weird, but I'm guessing that's a big deal
Though given how voxes are optional equipment, the commanders are probably literally yelling and the troops can't hear you while in the transport lol
floral herald
For the purposes of the rules at least they just don't exist at all while in a transport
tired cairn
Yeah, I'm just trying to back fill a narrative lol
jaunty dawn
i think you can order when you disembark if the officer is the one disembarking
tired cairn
They drill how to yell orders quickly
floral herald
i think you can order when you disembark if the officer is the one disembarking
I think so as well
jaunty dawn
which with chimeras lets you double order I think?
tired cairn
Iirc that got stapled on after 10th was first released
tired cairn
It's the type of rule they makes me think things could be cleaner if "models not on the board don't exist" was changed
jaunty dawn
no, its clearly easier to make it so the vehicle shoots the occupants weapons legally speaking
runic swallow
Something something back in the day you had crew models that could bail out if the tank wasn’t sent to the moon
Which that’s probably too granular for 40k tbh but I love games that do that
Like, is a tank crewman with a pistol or PDW gonna turn the tide of battle? Hell no, but it’s very cool and cinematic
And in other games can become sorta secondary objectives to evac off the field
I used to have a few of those guard tank crewmen models before I gave that army to a friend
finite compass
In 3rd ed for IG anyway
It was as long as the crew's alive, the tank only counts as damaged for Victory Point purposes
runic swallow
Yeah it was neat
(I’m not that old of a 40K player, but I knew guys who had played in that era)
Which is where I got those models, which come to think of it it’s kinda nice that I passed them along to a new player once again
Nice way to keep the spirit of welcoming people to the hobby alive
floral herald
Flames of War did that
Though it also had a whole thing where crews would bail out of damaged tanks a lot
jaunty dawn
riposte does this
and even you split crew members between operating the vehicle and doing their own stuff like pintle weapons
thin ibex
I do wish vehicle corpses stayed behind to be cover/ obstructions, but with only 5 rounds of play that might be restrictive
runic swallow
Gonna mention Specter Operations (a modern military skirmish-ish scale game) does that crew bailout thing, which I like
runic swallow
I do wish vehicle corpses stayed behind to be cover/ obstructions, but with only...
Wait what they don’t do that anymore???
That shit was great, why remove that
thin ibex
I'm reasonably sure they don't but not 100%
As far as why, it's cause with only 5 rounds and a small table, wrecks are just hard walks with no reasonable way to be dealt with I think
jaunty dawn
removed in 8e
thin ibex
Walls*
mental birch
Yeah was removed in 8e
thin ibex
And it encourages kind of non interactive play
mental birch
Build a wall of vehicle corpses
thin ibex
"My wall of dead rhinos has no solution, get fucked"
runic swallow
Man, when was that in 8e, I know I was still playing then
jaunty dawn
from the start
runic swallow
Either that or my store just hated that that was done away with and we ignored it
mental birch
Man, when was that in 8e, I know I was still playing then
In 8e the funniest thing was the Rhinoscope
jaunty dawn
yeah
runic swallow
…rhinoscope?
mental birch
So the look out sir rules didn't apply when the target was the closest visible model
So you used rhino's to block your own lascannon LOS
Suddenly lascannon had sniper
thin ibex
If the game ran longer or had more movement avenues I think wreck cover would be warranted, but in a game with such small spaces and so few rounds it just doesn't make a lot of sense
finite compass
"My wall of dead rhinos has no solution, get fucked"
Fuuuck... Anybody remember Fish of Fury?
thin ibex
In general non interactive play isn't very fun
jaunty dawn
it was mostly juzt a simplification thing
runic swallow
Suddenly lascannon had sniper
Ah, lmao,
mental birch
Hence Rhinoscope
runic swallow
Also yeah they shrunk the average board size, didn’t they
jaunty dawn
that was 9e
mental birch
There's also the funny durprise charge
runic swallow
Man, not being able to play for a while I’ve missed stuff
runic swallow
I should know this, I was playing in that era and played CSM
Unfortunately I can’t remember
mental birch
Did you know the chaos rhinos had a very funny rule on their plasma
Rolls of 1s didn't deal mortal wounds
It destroyed the model
jaunty dawn
oh yeah
mental birch
The plasma had assault
jaunty dawn
cause plasma guns
mental birch
You stuffed it with berserker
thin ibex
Sentinels had that issue for a long time too
mental birch
Ran up
jaunty dawn
and not a vehicle only gun that did 3 wounds
thin ibex
The entire sentinel blowing up
mental birch
Ran up the board blew up the rhino
And suddenly your berserker, "got out" of the rhino after advancing
bright dove
The Berserkers all fall out angry, ye
mental birch
Just in time for the charge phase h
jaunty dawn
didnt that still stop charges
runic swallow
And suddenly your berserker, "got out" of the rhino after advancing
Oh man incredible I just must have never put that together
mental birch
didnt that still stop charges
In 8e? No
jaunty dawn
or was that a later fix
runic swallow
Though, I will say, “explode the rhino as the worlds most ineffective VBIED to get a charge off” is very Berzerker coded
thin ibex
As a tau player in 8e we lived for first turn advantage
runic swallow
Like, it’s stupid but also makes a degree of sense
thin ibex
But 8e as an edition was "if I get to go, you won't have half your army on your turn round 1
jaunty dawn
zero day
finite compass
In 3e IIRC it was models take a wound on a 4+ (Unless the vehicle explodes, tehn you're jsut fucked)
runic swallow
Man, I lived in fear of markerlights, didn’t like being on the other end of an entire army of FAOs
jaunty dawn
not really a specific rule change
finite compass
Which I only remember because Orks actually had a special rule that they only took wounds on 6+
thin ibex
I think I saw some statistics on the middle of it, 1st turn had a much as 60% increase in win rate for most factions
finite compass
Because they were durable and very practiced at jumping out of moving vehicles