Warhammer and Such

[granite basin]

that i Do know-

[floral herald]

I think they're fucking sick but honestly I think that about nearly all space marines

[granite basin]

i know they lay the catholic guilt on Thick and they wear robes over armor, which i should think is sick as hell, but it hasn't clicked for me yet idk

[thin ibex]

I don't know who takes the cake for the title "edgelord" more, dark angels or raven guard

Both have compelling claims

[floral herald]

The sort of longer version is that they were the first space marine legion (and proud of it) and undertook all the worst early battles

Which they did with a sort of unflinching dour quiet professionalism where they just Don't Talk about the things they saw or did

Since no one else could handle that

And they did it again and again until the stains in the solar system were wiped out

And then unleashed that practiced quietly professional, utterly annihilatory mode of war they developed in those campaigns on the galaxy

[thin ibex]

Dark angels

• secrets
• love affair with swords
• hoods
• The Unforgiven
• huge collection of shit they never use

Raven guard

• ravens
• shadows
• power talons
• decimated chapter making much angst

[untold swallow]

They are my special little secretive psychopaths

[granite basin]

so the Other sore loser loyalists, that don't so much sweep anything under the rug as burn the rug and cut out the tongue of anyone who mentioned anything phonetically similar to the word rug?

[untold swallow]

Aye

you’ve

[floral herald]

Fast forward a while and they get savaged in the Rangdan Xenocides on the wrong side of the galaxy for the Horus Heresy and wind up mostly sitting it out.

Though 10,000 of em broke through Horus' blockade of Terra and saved the Imperium by seizing and holding the Astronomicon against impossible odds

And uh

[untold swallow]

Yeah you’ve described them

[floral herald]

The ones who stayed behind at Caliban started getting weird and Lion, the guy who always understandingly asks questions did the normal thing and killed them all so hard the planet exploded across time

They are very upset that like 40% of the legion was not accounted for and probably traitors

So they've spent 10,000 years hunting down all the time displaced traitors and forcing them to repent sins real or imagined

While also trying to keep up the appearances of being the best most stubborn most ruthless space marines

[thin ibex]

You know I wonder how the dark angels felt about the increased scrutiny from the custodes when the torchbearers came to reinforce them

[floral herald]

The Imperium as a whole is scared of them enough that they don't generally let them found new chapters

[untold swallow]

I mean in his defense the planet blowing up is also cuz he got stabbed

[jagged dawn]

aha, found one of our chaos knight armies

Enhancement: Panoply of the Cursed Knights (+40 pts)
Char2: 1x Knight Rampager (405 pts): Diabolus heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword, Warpstrike claw
Enhancement: Lord of Dread (+25 pts)

1x War Dog Brigand (170 pts): Armoured feet, Avenger chaincannon, Daemonbreath spear, Havoc multi-launcher
1x War Dog Brigand (170 pts): Armoured feet, Avenger chaincannon, Daemonbreath spear, Havoc multi-launcher
1x War Dog Brigand (170 pts): Armoured feet, Avenger chaincannon, Daemonbreath spear, Diabolus heavy stubber
1x War Dog Karnivore (140 pts): Reaper chaintalon, Slaughterclaw, Diabolus heavy stubber
1x War Dog Karnivore (140 pts): Reaper chaintalon, Slaughterclaw, Havoc multi-launcher
1x War Dog Karnivore (140 pts): Reaper chaintalon, Slaughterclaw, Havoc multi-launcher

10x Bloodletters (120 pts)
  8 with Hellblade
  1 with Daemonic Icon, Hellblade
  1 with Instrument of Chaos, Hellblade
10x Bloodletters (120 pts)
  8 with Hellblade
  1 with Daemonic Icon, Hellblade
  1 with Instrument of Chaos, Hellblade```

[floral herald]

And only partially because they think there's a conspiracy linking all the senior leadership of every Dark Angels successor (there is)

[untold swallow]

The Dark Angels totally aren’t still a Legion guys, we swear

[thin ibex]

Cause space marines can't openly deny a custodes as I understand it

And dark angels love their secrets

[floral herald]

I think they're unhappy about it

[granite basin]

this is fucking delightful. i love miserable imperial infighting /gen

[untold swallow]

Then you’ll love Dark Angels

[floral herald]

That's why they mostly marginalized their primaris reinforcements and subjected them to "extremely rigorous" loyalty tests and interrogations

[jagged dawn]

hmm, how to eldar

[floral herald]

AIUI the Dark Angels have somewhat unhappily become aligned with the Inquisition since they're another Imperial power which isn't Guilliman or the Custodes

[jagged dawn]

we're recreating our funny wraith army in new recruit

[untold swallow]

They are the Chapter for whom it is not unreasonable for the final trial of a successor chapter to be each initiate squad getting interrogated separate from one another

[thin ibex]

I think it's funny that the lion and wolf's historic boxing match became the source of comraderie between the two of them, in a fashion, over time; but both chapters in the last 10k years forgot all that and kept the "when we meet we gotta fight" part

[untold swallow]

And if one of them breaks, the entire squad is executed

[granite basin]

i love hearing about how fucked up each legion is

[untold swallow]

You wanna read my successor’s doc?

[granite basin]

yaya-

[floral herald]

I like the Dark Angels since they're mostly fucked up for like in universe reasons with relatively few exterior cultural touchstones

You can't call them "vampire space marines" like you can the Blood Angels

Though the BAs have a lot more going on than that

[granite basin]

imagine me kicking my feet like a schoolgirl except it's about reading how deeply miserable these 7 foot turbofascist freakmen's entire existence is

[thin ibex]

Tbf you can kind of call them knight marines more so than most, even if that is hella reductive

[floral herald]

I might go on a little spiel for BAs

Cause I've been reading up on them

[untold swallow]

They are very much the knight marines

Specifically the Arthurian marines

[bright dove]

I liked these bloodletters, to be late to the conversation.

[floral herald]

So the Blood Angels origin (though I think they were called the War Dogs) originally is that they were infamously hardy

Just able to put up with the worst places

Without being corrupted

[thin ibex]

Like black Templar are also the knight marines, but way more crusades

[untold swallow]

No joke, the most recent novel with the Lion in it has a character who represents the Emperor as a Fisher King reference in Jonson’s weird mind palace forest

[thin ibex]

But they actually do the squire thing

[floral herald]

And their gene-seed basically takes all comers - you can send the lowest mutant dregs of humanity and they all come out as like handsome giant dudes anyway

So they tend to get sent to the places with all the mutants since they can replace losses there

And get a kind of lowborn mongrel reputation among the legions

Since they're mostly ex-mutants and uh

Eat people

[granite basin]

do the space wolves not also do cannibalism

or am i misremembering

[floral herald]

Most space marines in 40k do ritual cannibalism

But the BAs War Dogs just eat people all the time

And that was also a lot rarer in 30k

So eventually they meet up with Sanguinius who's just the generally agreed upon GOAT

And even though they're a sort of monstrous legion with a monstrous reputation Sanguinius sees some spark of nobility in them

And basically accepts them as they are but starts instilling a bunch of artistic traditions and such

So over the next while they kind shed that brutal lowborn War Dog reputation for the Blood Angels - divine warrior-artists matching the sublime grace of their primarch

And uh, repressing that fundamental blood thirst

And then Horus kills Sanguinius

And Every living blood angel experiences it

And all go crazy for a while

[untold swallow]

HOOOOOORUUUUUUUS!!!

[floral herald]

So now they're twice-marred by their bloodthirst and by the fact that even though they're the noblest and longest lived of space marines they will all* one day be overtaken by Sanguinius' prophetic visions of his own death (which he chose to face, since it was the only way) and will join the ranks of the Death Company as an insensate murderous berserker

*Mephiston didn't but he's just Built Different I guess

[brittle salmon]

I like Mephiston as this ideal of hope for the Blood Angels

But I also like that he's a fucking creepy weirdo

[thin ibex]

He's just Dracula

Look at that collar

[thin ibex]

I think you may be misremembering, I don't remember anything of the line

Like

[untold swallow]

Fuck the collar, look at that armor

Tasty tasty movie reference armor

[floral herald]

I love the "naked muscle artificer armor" a few high ranking Blood Angels get

[untold swallow]

It’s a bit wack imo

We would be better served by 1992 Dracula movie armor

It takes to the chapter color better imo

[granite basin]

i adore the blood angels

i like big hulking vampire bastards who are also pretty boys but also will just slurp your organs out through your eyesockets

fucking horrific creatures. perfect astartes

[thin ibex]

I'm honestly surprised they didn't set up the vampire v wolf sub narrative between wolves and ba, opting to do DA v Wolves instead

Perhaps too low hanging a fruit?

[granite basin]

i mean, you have the most inquisition-coded chapter that aren't just straight up an apparatus of the 40k inquisition

ie. "Monster Hunters"

and you put them against vampires

[floral herald]

That’s possible but I think it’s also because they have a lot in common

They’re both insular executioners who see themselves as specially appointed by the Emperor for special tasks other legions aren’t up to

[granite basin]

how many of the astartes have a pride issue

or rather, would it be easier to ask the opposite

[untold swallow]

Every single one

[floral herald]

Raptors

[untold swallow]

Except some ultramarines, maybe

And then they’ll have a pride issue

About not having other pride issues

[floral herald]

They’ve had so many close scrapes and near-miss wipe outs that they’ve adopted a “whatever works” approach to conflict and have no pretense or pride left

Which is why they don’t adorn their armor and wear olive drab

[granite basin]

i like the idea that they're in pure olive drab, standard boring military regalia, bc they otherwise don't give a fuck about the pomp and circumstance

normal ass space marine color scheme in any other setting. but them being the odd men out makes it fun

[uneven ember]

They're banished for, I think it's several centuries, although the Warp is as ever rampant with timey-wimey fuckery
and all the other daemons talk mad shit

[bright dove]

Hey, that hadn't been set up as a rivalry yet.

[floral herald]

and it really sucks for the daemon because they love getting into realspace and doing violence to getting a time out and laughed at is basically the worst

[granite basin]

i didn't want to go too Real Military for my homebrewed chapter fellas, but i also got lost in the idea of Space Marines being astronauts in riot gear with aviation decals/regalia

[bright dove]

The level of suck varies.

For some, it is a "Drat, guess I'm waiting a bit"

And then there's things like the Beasts of Nurgle going "WHY DON'T THEY LOVE ME?!"

[thin ibex]

Beasts of Nurgle really be like "why no want play? Just want play :(((("

[tired cairn]

What's taking Dante so long

Idea for GW giving BA a primarch model: at some point, the death company space marines start believing they are Sanguinius they manifest a primarch like entity

[bright dove]

The Sanguinor

[upper canopy]

I'm still sad I belted out Horus at the top of my lungs foe the deathwatch game and my mic cut out

[thin ibex]

Sanguinor, did they get an update on the new ba dex?

[tired cairn]

... I guess, but that won't give GW an excuse to make a new very expensive model lol

Oh, the Sanguinor predates Sanguinious dying

[brittle salmon]

That was so cool too

[granite basin]

I gotta wrap my head around Deathwatch sometime

I got all the books from Humble Bundle, now it's just a matter of actually reading

[untold swallow]

CAPTAIN Legionary Chosen
⊕Tainted Bolt Pistol, ⚔Daemon Blade
Undivided - Vicious Reavers
LIBRARIAN Legionary Bale􀁼re Acolyte
⊕Bolt Pistol, ⊕Fireblast, ⊕Life Syphon, ⚔Fell Dagger
Undivided - Vicious Reavers
ANCIENT Legionary Icon Bearer
⊕Bolt Pistol, ⚔Chainsword
Nurgle - Disgusting Vigour
REIVER Legionary Shrivetalon
⊕Bolt Pistol, ⚔Flensing Blades
Slaanesh - Unnatural Agility
JUDICIAR Legionary Butcher
⊕Bolt Pistol, ⚔Double-Handed Chainaxe
Khorne - Wrathful Onslaught
HEAVY INTERCESSOR Legionary Heavy Gunner
⊕Bolt Pistol, ⊕Heavy Bolter, ⚔Fists
Tzeentch - Empyreal Guidance```KT24 Space Marines counts as Legionaries list

[pulsar cairn]

say

does the black legion make itself vulnerable to other factions if they do a big campaign against the imperium? or are they safe since they just go into the warp?

[floral herald]

I guess it might be for thematic reasons to not do this but I like running icon bearers with bolters because it’s actually rare to get longer ranged guns

And model wise there is a long tradition of 1 handing a bolter and flag :p

[untold swallow]

honestly fair

How does equipment work in 2024?

I'm not seeing point costs or whatever

for malefic blades tainted rounds etc

[jaunty dawn]

you get 4 equipment slots / 5 if you choose the equip pregame action

so it's basically you have your factions 4 equipment by default which you can then replace with universal equipment like grenades or barricades

[uneven ember]

The forces of the Black Legion are more exposed on their Black Crusades than when they're holed up in the Eye, yeah
But they do have the EoT as a fallback if things start to turn

[untold swallow]

oh that's cool

can you have a chosen and an aspiring champion in the 2024 rules, or no?

[jaunty dawn]

I don't think so

still both leader options

[floral herald]

Yeah one or the other

[untold swallow]

makes sense

my last equipment is malefic blades but all my characters either have better native melee options or are my heavy gunner lmao

I suppose he can have a backup sword should the worst occur

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

and cause you pick equipment every battle after knowing the opponents faction basically every team has melee as a flex equipment choice

but if you've got plenty melee operatives I think a lot of the time that's better spent on grenades to give options for shooting for all melee loadouts

oh yeah the other thing about equipment in '24 is that it's no longer assigned to specific models

[untold swallow]

wot

Oh is it that the effects are teamwide?

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

[untold swallow]

and I take it if the unit that equipment's assigned to goes down

[jaunty dawn]

and like when you pick grenades that's two grenades for the battle, that can be thrown by anyone

[untold swallow]

bye bye equipment?

[jaunty dawn]

that's how it used to be

like you gave a knife or grenade to a specific guy

now it's 'everyone has knives' or 'you have two grenades anyone can throw them'

[untold swallow]

all righty

So everyone has warded armour and can activate it, everyone has tainted rounds, etc etc

[jaunty dawn]

ye

[untold swallow]

cool beans

⊕Plasma Pistol, ⚔Daemon Blade
Undivided - Vicious Reavers, Warded Armour
LIBRARIAN Legionary Balefire Acolyte
⊕Bolt Pistol, ⊕Fireblast, ⊕Life Syphon, ⚔Fell Dagger
Undivided - Vicious Reavers, Chaos Talismans
LIEUTENANT Legionary Warrior
⊕Boltgun, ⚔Chainsword
Tzeentch - Empyreal Guidance, Tainted Rounds
ANCIENT Legionary Icon Bearer
⊕Boltgun, ⚔Chainsword
Nurgle - Disgusting Vigour
REIVER Legionary Shrivetalon
⊕Bolt Pistol, ⚔Flensing Blades
Slaanesh - Unnatural Agility, Explosive Grenade - Krak
JUDICIAR Legionary Butcher
⊕Bolt Pistol, ⚔Double-Handed Chainaxe
Khorne - Wrathful Onslaught```

[thin ibex]

IR lasers seem like they'd be cool on space marine guns, and they're helmets or augmentation allows them to see them

[untold swallow]

I'm sure a chapter or two's done it

Though other forces probably have methods of detecting it

[junior robin]

now this is intriguing, shape and energy says necron but the color says...admech? votann? 🤔

[jaunty dawn]

hmm

[junior robin]

my gut tells me though its the vortex cannon used to replace Rogal Dorns missing hand

[floral herald]

Hhmmmmm

[jaunty dawn]

might be votann

[floral herald]

Maybe not

Not quite smooth enough lines for else

[jaunty dawn]

yeah too sarp edged

votann had the weird bottle rocket that also didn't quite look like anything else so

that's my guess for everything weird xP

[paper bluff]

Reminds me of the weapons on the heavy construct

[dense sedge]

Nah that won’t be for awhile

[untold swallow]

Would it be unreasonable for a Second Founding chapter's fleet to be headed by a Gloriana?

[jaunty dawn]

dangel successors?

[floral herald]

It would be quite unusual since the Glorianas are nearly all gone by M41

But not necessarily unreasonable

[jaunty dawn]

that's the most reasonable sire chapter for it to work, but it would definitely be a little weird

but not like, weird bad necessarily

[lofty warren]

Isnt the black templars ship a gloriana

[jaunty dawn]

especially if in their role there's a reason to assign them it

ye

[ebon forge]

What do you mean the DWARFS brought this to the game

[tardy vault]

wait what the fuck is that from?

[pine matrix]

Don't worry, it'll get sent off at the end of the half :)

[pine matrix]

Blood Bowl

[tardy vault]

oh bloodbowl

what is that basing tho

[ebon forge]

It has 7 ST

[ebon forge]

'The Dwarf Engineers Guild converted a humble grass-roller into a secret weapon that they could unleash on hapless opponents'

[tardy vault]

I was mostly talking about the overhang

I totally understand the goblin being run over

[pine matrix]

Oh the base size? Yeah, cause blood bowl is played on standard squares all players need to fit on those squares

Which is uh, difficult to do with a big ass Roller

[tardy vault]

[ebon forge]

YEah uhn...
It's overflowing the base

[pine matrix]

Funnily enough Bull Centuars come with 40mm bases, apparently? Not sure why they get to be larger

[ebon forge]

The what now

WHAT DO YOU MEAN THE DWARFS CAN BECOME CENTAURS

[jaunty dawn]

the dark side of the arcane is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be...unnatural

[tardy vault]

those are Chaos Dwarfs

they have different rules

[ebon forge]

Clearly

[tardy vault]

Also, don't mention that you know they exist or that's a Grudging

(Dwarfs really don't like Chaos Dwarfs because they're Oathbreakers in Dwarf eyes)

(but yeah, if you're wondering how Chaos in WHF get all their cool gear and warmachines now you know)

[ebon forge]

Chaos Dwarfs are Iron Warriors, got it /j

[balmy wave]

I mean... Kinda

[uneven ember]

Random but
It's weird, IMO, that the Imperial Navy is (as far as I can tell) the only faction who has different airplanes and space fighters

[untold swallow]

Aye

[untold swallow]

They do be a very small group on what they see as eternal pilgrimage

Wait

I made the anti-Templars

Have to keep themselves small and love themselves some psykers

Also theoretically mainly moving shrine world to shrine world

<XD

[tired cairn]

Are all the planes spaceworthy?

... Do the orks use the same planes and space fighters lmao

[balmy wave]

Wdym?

[floral herald]

Orks don’t really have different “classes” of aerospace stuff so much as a bunch of planes

[jaunty dawn]

for example all marine aircraft can into space

while stuff like valkyries can't

[tired cairn]

Wait, I thought valks were space flight capable

[paper bluff]

They're the same. So long as you don't tell the ork it shouldn't work They're kinda fine

[jaunty dawn]

I don't think so. they can do same fairly high altitude stuff but they're jet propelled

[uneven ember]

Damn right they do! Fighta-bommas can and are used to attack voidships

[tired cairn]

Using a "standard" jet plane in space is very orky. Though I'm sure they are sad that they have to close the cockpit

[untold swallow]

man I have a really weird pair character unit idea

that idk if it would work

A chaplain and techmarine who are brother and sister xD

[jaunty dawn]

honestly I don't know if its even a waaagh thing I think they just put crazy engines in them and are too tough to really worry about sophisticated pressurisation n stuff

[paper bluff]

Like the time the orks without space suits invaded a necron ship. Please note: necron space ships have no atmosphere because they don't need to breath

[tired cairn]

How do they get the valks onto the planet? And is this why the Darktide dropship something similar but different?

[floral herald]

Valks are space capable iirc but a lot of IN aircraft aren’t iirc

[jaunty dawn]

in big logistics dropships I think

[balmy wave]

Valkyries are space-flight capable

[floral herald]

The aircraft carriers belly-down into the upper atmosphere like a reverse airbase

[jaunty dawn]

is there a source for this haha

[balmy wave]

Most Aeronautica Imperialis craft can fly in low atmo

[uneven ember]

Valkyries, Thunderbolts, Marauders, etc are space-capable enough to get from the ships to the atmosphere and back

[jaunty dawn]

cause its not mentioned on lexicanum

[floral herald]

It’s how it works in the Tithes ep 3 and Darktide

[balmy wave]

But yes, most of them need carrying to near the planet

[uneven ember]

But the IN has different fighters and bombers for void superiority

[jaunty dawn]

I think I'll call that a 'it varies' thing then

cause I feel like from like

[tired cairn]

The lexicanum says "The Valkyrie has various void-capable sub-variants"

[balmy wave]

The majority of imperial aircraft have limited void capabilities

[jaunty dawn]

aquila lander/arvus lighter design

yeah maybe it can just be void hardened but isn't necessarily

[uneven ember]

Pretty much everyone else, though, uses the same craft in the atmosphere and in BFG

[balmy wave]

The Mechanicus' vessels are pretty much only atmo

[pine matrix]

This is when Hashut has truly blessed you

[floral herald]

I think the eldar also vary

[balmy wave]

Out of the ones we know from the tabletop

[floral herald]

Space marines might (their fighters aren’t named in BFG)

[tired cairn]

Wings don't work very well in space lol

[jaunty dawn]

I think the thing that complicates this is a lot of the time like, making new stuff isn't in remit

[tired cairn]

I think for the video game they just used thunderhawks for literally everything

[balmy wave]

Everything Thunderhawk and up can definitely fly in space

[jaunty dawn]

so i feel like from core 'how valkyrie was designed' it's meant to be an atmo craft

[balmy wave]

Pretty sure the other tabletop ones too

[uneven ember]

Space Marine attack craft are Thunderhawks, which act as fighters and assault boats

[floral herald]

That’s basically accurate but they had fighters and Thawks

[jaunty dawn]

but then if a project needs an iconic plane they're gonna use it regardless

[floral herald]

Oh maybe I’m misremembering

[balmy wave]

And others

[floral herald]

I thought they were bombers and assault boats

With unnamed fighters no one used

[balmy wave]

Thunderhawks are capable of being both space and sky fighters

[tired cairn]

I mostly assumed valks were space capable because I thought drop troops used them lol

[hybrid oyster]

god I wish the valkyrie was pointed to be playable in game

[balmy wave]

In atmospheres, they're primarily transports and bombers

[uneven ember]

No, the only SM bombers are a Thunderhawk variant available to crusade fleets

[jaunty dawn]

drop troops generally aren't falling from actual space in 40k

aside from drop pods

[balmy wave]

There's another one from the tabletop isn't there?

[tired cairn]

GW needs to figure out what it reaches to do with aircraft is the problem

[hybrid oyster]

Just nerf the attack aircraft, please just let the transport ones be good

[tired cairn]

I'd just give them all hover and normal LoS rules tbh

[jaunty dawn]

or like it varies, cause some drop troops are rappelling and some are doing super long falls like aquilons

[uneven ember]

Yeah, the Xiphon Fighter or something
Introduced after BFG and mostly a Heresy-era thing

[tired cairn]

Yeah, but in my mind drop troops means "starts in space at some point", which might be a me problem tbf

[jaunty dawn]

that's fair

I think 40k just doesn't like saying parachute

[tired cairn]

Grav chute does sound cooler

[jaunty dawn]

gravatroopers

[hybrid oyster]

techically guard has a few full on drop regiments which jump from high atmosphere as an entire unit. just hundreds of thousands of guard and sentinels falling out of the sky at once

[uneven ember]

Why parachute when you can grav-chute

[jaunty dawn]

elysians also specialise in like, boarding operations and space stuff like deploying on asteroids

[pine matrix]

40k also ignores terrestial navy combat a fair bit, afaik

We've had a kill-zone on an oil rig, when will we have one on a honest to goodness boat

[thin ibex]

i always imagined the air battle and the wider war is just happening off screen; cause the battles you fight in 40k arent exactly massive

[tired cairn]

Naval battles in a space setting seems like an interesting problem

[thin ibex]

wet navies seem rare in 40k, as far as like official capacity; PDFs will have them, or they might get made for a specific assault, but no one is just shipping boats around between planets just in case

you'll usually have amphibious hardware to cover that base

[tired cairn]

A lot harder to transport naval ships around because they are very big

[thin ibex]

rather than dedicated wet navies

[tired cairn]

And you can semi-avoid them by dropping right onto the target landmass

[jaunty dawn]

I mean when wet navies have primarily just become mobile air power and 40k has space ships that can do that better there's not a lot of like, point

[thin ibex]

the fastest example that comes to mind is ork submarine troop carriers assaulting... helsreach was it?

[pine matrix]

However, consider this: Orbital dropping a fleet onto a planet's oceans

[tired cairn]

Are the 40k voidships technically atmosphere capable?

[thin ibex]

but yeah i generally imagine if you are a static garrison you might have a wet navy if you have oceans; but generally people arent coming from somewhere else to deploy a navy

[jaunty dawn]

I don't think the big ones are no

[pulsar cairn]

how high do u have to be ranked for u to be allowed to know what a Grey knight is?

[jaunty dawn]

necromunda has like transatmospheric docking towers

[tired cairn]

I think you see an escort ship in "drydock" in one of the Darktide missions

[untold swallow]

about Chapter Master methinks

[pulsar cairn]

[thin ibex]

atmo capable somewhat depends on the atmo

[jaunty dawn]

I think in the strictest sense, you have to be a high ranking ordo malleus specifically inquisitor

[thin ibex]

but also i think 40k lets void ships be atmo capable for the pure purpose of spectacle

narrative/aesthetic driven vs physics driven

[jaunty dawn]

during the war of the beast, 31,500, only 4 inqusitiors knew about them and 3 of them had died

[thin ibex]

but yeah, it really depends on the actual atmo

[pine matrix]

Man Darktide is so great for showing what a 40k hive city is like at eye-level, as well as elsewhere

[jaunty dawn]

now that they feel really bad abt purging everyone who's ever seen them, allsorts will know about them

[thin ibex]

I think there isn't a rank access to gk info; i suspect you have to be a lord inquisitor or an ordo malleus inquisitor; but if you are something like a notable chapter master, you dont get summarily executed

[jaunty dawn]

oh yeah

there's a big difference between 'being inducted into the conspiracy' and 'surviving finding out'

[thin ibex]

but you aren't like, technically informed about them, you're just not worth the trouble to erase

and you probably get made to oath or something to not tell

[pulsar cairn]

dont sometimes they just mind wipe you?

[thin ibex]

some chapters have better relationships too i imagine, than others

but yeah, i think the GK are one of the imperiums all time greatest secrets in the imperium

[jaunty dawn]

I don't think there's really much fraternity between the grey knights and the astartes

[thin ibex]

oh no i didn't mean to imply as much

[meager quail]

They’re the grey sheep of the family dohohohohoho

[thin ibex]

i more mean that a chapter master with a "better" relation might be able to call upon them for aid

[meager quail]

[jaunty dawn]

grey knight black shield

uh

and also they were a grey knight chaplain

do grey knights have chaplains

yeah

they do

[meager quail]

Grey knight shows up in the Deathwatch — “what chapter are you from battle brother?”
“Um”

[pine matrix]

A grey knight chaplain sounds like Krieg commissar, who there is having a crisis of faith

[untold swallow]

I think the Exorcists just

straight up know the GK exist

as a Chapter

Which

makes a kind of sense

Since they're the GKs little, cooler brother

[jaunty dawn]

the ordo malleus were heavily involved with them too

[hybrid oyster]

most "inquisition friendly" chapters probably do

red hunters etc

[jaunty dawn]

grey knight chaplain is interestingly one of the few non modelled things you can take apparently

[untold swallow]

(The GK would be much cooler if they didn't have those fucking wrist bolters that are an affront to God and ergonomics)

[tired cairn]

They do have a don't ask, don't tell policy if you show up in the right way

[meager quail]

FWIW there are enough accepted permutations of the Imperial Faith that they probably just followed a slightly modified doctrine

[hybrid oyster]

Space wolves definetly know they grey knights exist

[meager quail]

XD

[untold swallow]

I sort of get the whole 'bolter on the wrist so you can still use your hands for magic' but

[jaunty dawn]

I think you technically could have a commissar who's like, genetically a krieger

[untold swallow]

There are also now much better looking wrist bolters

Or the weird pintel mounts techmarines have

[jaunty dawn]

but all the progenium ppl are basically from wherever their school was regardless of parentage

cause they're not really gonna remember anything that comes before

[untold swallow]

idk I think GK are a little lame and the only thing I wanna do with them is take Crowe's sword and give it to my Chapter Master

also the fuckin baby bjorn robots

god

[jaunty dawn]

idk why gw keeps trying to get away with those

[pulsar cairn]

i think their armor looks cool that's mostly it tho

[hybrid oyster]

I should be able to finish priming my tau today

[tired cairn]

Someone at GW really likes baby carriers

[untold swallow]

Oh their armor fucks

It's the everything else that

is pain

[pulsar cairn]

i see

[untold swallow]

Like I like the concept of the Grey Knights and their origins

I partially aped their origin for the origin of my Chapter's first Chapter Master

i.e. one of Malcador's chosen Knights Errant

[tired cairn]

I think for grey Knights GW should go all in and give them a knight sized mech that is an exoskeleton for a nemesis dreadknight

I think the grey Knights faction mechanic is neat

[untold swallow]

how much do you wanna bet if a BT found out the Grey Knights existed

They'd immediately try to kill them and get rolled

[hybrid oyster]

GKs have been rolled by Space wolves canonically

[pulsar cairn]

what's a BT?

[meager quail]

GKs we’re also kinda authors’ pets for a while and the fanbase got increasingly unhappy about it

The special, secret, soopah space marines

[untold swallow]

Black Templars

[meager quail]

Incorruptible!

[pulsar cairn]

oh right

[meager quail]

It ticked people off

So they’ve kinda been sidelined aiui

[untold swallow]

good they're kinda lame

[meager quail]

That’s how people felt, yeah

[pine matrix]

They need a revamp in terms of lore, there is the potential of coolness there

Custodes also kinda ate their lunch in terms of being Emp's super special project

[meager quail]

And custodes are actually largely liked because the lore explicitly says they’re not just marines-but-better

Warriors vs. soldiers

It’s a good dynamic

[pine matrix]

Mhm, I quite liked the detail in the HH novels that they fight individually, with great skill but aren't part of cohesive whole as marines are

[meager quail]

They can bear a marine arm-wrestling but they’re not really competent as a military organization

[pine matrix]

Like lions instead of wolves

(or dogs, more accurately)

[meager quail]

Yeah I think if they reimagined GKs as something like the Inquisition’s personal space marine chapter, who are very secretive and have a tense, antagonistic relationship with proper marines, that could work

Where culturally they’re disconnected from the other astartes

[hybrid oyster]

I mean

thats basically what they are arent they

[thin ibex]

yeah

[hybrid oyster]

they are the ordo malleus militant chamber

[thin ibex]

I actually dislike them being portrayed as the inquisitions little attack dogs; i much prefer their autonomy being a point of regular contention

they dont work for the inquisition, they are instead tied by oaths of cooperation

[meager quail]

I guess I want to see them as more explicitly isolated and beset from all sides

Make them scrappy

[thin ibex]

a criticism ive had for their portrayal in a lot of fiction is that they get depicted as mindless inquisitorial attack dogs

[jaunty dawn]

it's more like ordo malleus is the gk's pet inqusitors is the thing

in terms of the actual balance of power

[floral herald]

Yes but they don’t like it

[thin ibex]

to this day I still dont think logan was actually so fast and powerful as to behead a grandmaster uncontested. I tend to imagine that fight was a lot less clean cut in reality

[meager quail]

I’d like something like: the inquisition tries to run them, the other marines don’t trust them, and the enemies they seek out are extremely deadly and it’s really hard to keep their numbers up and they’re not nearly as invincible as some people seem to think

[jaunty dawn]

I heard that logan killed the grandmaster...with his voice! shouted him apart!

[thin ibex]

lol

thuum

logan is actually dovaakhin

[meager quail]

Psychic shock troops with an extremely shitty job and extremely shitty bosses

[thin ibex]

i tend to think that the retelling of that story is from the perspective of a skald in Fenris' halls

[desert jay]

And from a Doyalist side, the Space Wolves have also been the author's favorite special boys at times

[thin ibex]

yeah, i feel like they got that treatment right after the ultramarines

or was it right after the gk

UM, GK, and SW being an author's unbeatable special boys has stained their honor for years

[jaunty dawn]

all the same era

5th edition

[thin ibex]

a lot of more wild SW tales I just reframe as being tall tales told by enthusiastic blood claws told second hand

or grey hunters at the feasting table

because i think Fenrisians and SW in general have a culture of tall tale telling

Grow the Saga and so on

[desert jay]

Imagine what SM lore would be like if one of the author's favorites was Imperial Fists

[thin ibex]

they might have a chapter master!

that actually exists

[jaunty dawn]

oh the imperial fists are definietly someone's favourites I imagine

[thin ibex]

fortifications would be a feature

[jaunty dawn]

they just take a very different approach to what they do with their blorbo

[desert jay]

Yeah but they never really starred in like a campaign book or w/e

[pine matrix]

"The Fists threw back the 900,000 necrons with their invincible fortifications, which they built in a single night"

[jaunty dawn]

not really in 40k, no

[thin ibex]

i feel like imperial fists being an authors special boy has resulted in "yes they get decimated again, their chapter master got assassinated probably"

[jaunty dawn]

but literally everywhere else they're pretty important

[thin ibex]

"they have done nothing of specific note in like 5000 years"

"sometimes Phalanx shows up"

[jaunty dawn]

heresy, war of the beast, age of apostacy

[pine matrix]

Iron Cage was actually a clever ruse by Rogal Dorn

[desert jay]

Gregor Dessian is a man who understands the importance of administration and delegation and not being the one to make big valiant noble sacrifices when you have other less exciting duties to attend to

[jaunty dawn]

theres a part of the heresy fandom that's really trying to force a 'imperial fists/sons of horus are 30k's ultramarines' bit not realising the ultramarines jokes have mostly dried up for a while

[paper bluff]

What... what would even be the xenos that would require a daemon fighter

[floral herald]

Enslavers I guess

[pine matrix]

Imps and Sons fit well I think, sons for obvious reasons and Imps cause they're the defenders of Sol

[floral herald]

The weird 5 lobed chaos aliens if they came back

Whatever cooked the Harrowing

[desert jay]

Even if not overtly a daemon fighter, could prolly pose as a librarian

[meager quail]

"I needed a break okay"

"Being a Grey Knight sucks"

[tired cairn]

They could also have had a really bad falling out with their chapter

[meager quail]

"Fighting xenos is how I vacation"

[tired cairn]

(given the secrecy, I imagine they would at least have to pretend to take the black)

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

like where else is an orphaned marine gonna go

[untold swallow]

I have done the worst thing I can think of for a chapter I wanna turn into an army

[jaunty dawn]

I just think it'd be funny to be a chaplain so they have all their bases covered

[untold swallow]

Think of a combined unit that's really really cool

[tired cairn]

Though having heraldry as the super secret grey Knights is pretty funny

[meager quail]

Hm ... what if GKs just sometimes retire to the Deathwatch

[untold swallow]

And also would have a gimmick that's

bad for this Chapter

pain

Cuz it's an idea for a Chaplain/Techmarine duo

For a chapter noted to field limited vehicles and no dreadnoughts

[meager quail]

After a while you cannot keep fighting the warp, either because you're dead or because it's fucked you up too much

[junior robin]

that would force GW to add all chaos worshiping xeno races from the lore into the game

[meager quail]

And their supposed incorruptibility is actually that if you get too affected they make you go do something else

And they're not incorruptible but cautious to a fault

[floral herald]

That last part is basically just true

The GK have never been corrupted not because they have Super Corruption Immunity but because they’re insanely ruthless and careful

[thin ibex]

i do think its a bit weird, thematically, that a GK army is a TAC kinda situation. Mechanically they have to be so; but they're actually a hyper specialized fighting force

[meager quail]

I am imagining them more as the only people with therapists

And at some point the therapists have the authority to force you to retire

[thin ibex]

you dont call the GK to fight orks, for example, though they may end up fighting them incidentally

[floral herald]

I think they do retire some veteran GK from combat duties to basically being warp-SCP minders on Titan

[thin ibex]

Well, some GK have super corruption immunity, like Garran Crowe

[cosmic tulip]

Hmm

What’s a good reason for there to be a lot of Gue’vesa Battlesuit pilots in an army led by an Ethereal and Crisis Commander?

[thin ibex]

pilot program overseen by the ethereal and commander

hand selected human pilots

maybe humans who also took on the tau tradition of ta'lessera

[tired cairn]

Human teenagers keep finding unpiloted battlesuits during times of crisis

[wintry mist]

they all pretend to be tau

[cosmic tulip]

That’s what I was thinking

[cosmic tulip]

Ooh ok!

[soft willow]

Experimental ones too, it's the darndest thing.

[thin ibex]

do they also have quasi mystical precognitive abilities

[cosmic tulip]

Nah just the power of the human spirit and this gun i found

[soft willow]

Only the one time.

[thin ibex]

no psychic connection to other spacenoids coupled with extreme emotional instability coupled with puberty and the horrors of war?

[cosmic tulip]

Nah just raw hope

And more guns

[ebon forge]

Tho I cry about Dwarf Centaurs on the field
but the Goblin teams just actively tries to get banned

[floral herald]

Some new type of psychic awakening yeah

[unreal cosmos]

I suspect I already heard the answer before but were the World Eaters already psyker-averse before signing up with Khorne?

[floral herald]

I don’t think so

[ebon forge]

They just had a stinky eye to psykers, but in the book Betrayer it shows the WE did have psykers, but they could not have the nails

[jaunty dawn]

head splode

[pulsar cairn]

Show me 40k dogs

If there are any

[still warren]

kroot hounds, the hottest new tau army

[pulsar cairn]

Dogs

[floral herald]

https://preview.redd.it/new-ratking-killteam-comes-with-a-dog-this-is-the-best-v0-dd1wbdr46jtd1.jpeg?auto=webp&s=cc0eae50b7367b8d3486e8b451cad684a094541a

[pulsar cairn]

That one is just great

[floral herald]

Kill team is the dog game

https://preview.redd.it/final-confirmation-of-kill-team-being-eldar-versus-arbites-v0-wuxayxveqsda1.jpg?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=684796e044541afda5642c6658e2d3338f74560b

[jaunty dawn]

kroot dog

I think the meme is silly though

sisters of silence have dogs in horus heresy, but they don't have models

orlock dog

[unreal cosmos]

Y'know what this reminds me of? The cyber dog from Snow Crash

[pulsar cairn]

Maybe one day i'll play kill team then

[unreal cosmos]

Trying to think of the most tasteful way to say this lines up with old Ratling lore about the origins of their weird genetics

||Rampant inbreeding.||

[jaunty dawn]

were they like

aiming for something

[unreal cosmos]

With the lore? Maybe just a dig at country folk and trying to be goofy/edgy.

[jaunty dawn]

oh no sorry

I meant like

far less tastefully

like pugs were made that way for a reason

even if the methods were bad and the outcome was bad

[unreal cosmos]

Ah gotcha. Well maybe, you never know.

[hard whale]

I think they just wanted a smaller dog to go with the team of little guys

[unreal cosmos]

Oh yeah I doubt it was intentional, it just reminded me of those fucked up designer pitbulls you see sometimes

2x Pimpy 3x Bape

But swinging things back to the positives, I like that it's mechanics are just to bark when Baddies are incoming, which I think at least one pug did in military history

(I just remember an old story about a general bringing his pet along and it sounding the alarm)

[ebon forge]

Don't forget the Ork Dog

[granite basin]

Gogy of rotund form

[hybrid oyster]

Going to go try to play a game of 40k today

And throw 100 guard to their death.

[paper bluff]

..... do the canoptek constructs count as necron dog?

[lofty warren]

I love the tank colours

Very 90s transformers

[granite basin]

transformers + 40k is a crossover i welcome in any case-

[floral herald]

So are Reivers any good in bighammer?

[tired cairn]

... I just heard that horde SM was doing well in both singles and teams formats and I hate it lol

(I think this was true a bit earlier but still)

[floral herald]

power armor horde is a fun archetype

[tired cairn]

My complaint is purely aesthetic about how SM "shouldn't" be a horde army

Though, I guess for a horde army, 120 bodies isn't that big

[tired cairn]

I think poorhammer was joking about how disappointed people will be with them on the tabletop after experiencing how cool they are in SM2

[floral herald]

Yeah at like 18 ppm they can’t be that hordey

[lofty warren]

i wonder where the line between infantry spam and horde is

[tired cairn]

Depnds on context

[floral herald]

Honestly I think it’s about 8 ppm

[tired cairn]

Some of it is how intentional it is, and also horde also refers to armies that can field a lot of models, and not just lots of infantry models

[floral herald]

Sister spam (10-11 ppm) or guardian spam (10 ppm) isn’t horde but gaunts (5-8 ppm) are

[lofty warren]

i don't think anyone associates horde with anything but infantry

[tired cairn]

Well, like when people talk about horde vs elite factions

They aren't talking about spamming infantry

[bright dove]

Many carnifexes, for example

[floral herald]

That’s definitely how I look at hordes

Nidzilla isn’t a horde list

[tired cairn]

Eh, I think it's more "a well balanced horde faction list will have many more models than I well balanced elite faction list"

But maybe the otherside of elite is something else

[tired cairn]

Are there any armies that are on the lower ppm but then don't have (or you wouldn't expect to have) a horde focused detachment?

[floral herald]

Hmm

Low ppm but no horde type detachment?

Eldar kinda

They have a lot of relatively cheap models but generally don't field high model count spammy lists

[thin ibex]

Add I understand, not even a little

As*

[tired cairn]

Interesting. I wonder if people would call a high model count eldar list spammy or a horde

Also, it is funny to me that Eldar are "oh woe is us, each one of our lives are precious" but games generally has them be glass cannons

The Warpforged card game even has them very trade based lol

[floral herald]

One old signifier of horde armies which doesn't really exist now is also large unit sizes

Since it let you put more models into the force org chart

[tired cairn]

What model count did Guardian squads cap out before?

[floral herald]

I think 10?

It may have been 20 but no one fielded them that way

Ork boyz were 30 at the time

I think gaunts were 20-30

[tired cairn]

Yeah, that seemed to be the horde cap

[floral herald]

Imperial Guard were the kings of it at... 75 iirc

[tired cairn]

Though I think conscripts were something ridiculous like 40-50 at one point in time

[floral herald]

Thanks to the platoon rules

[soft willow]

32 on gaunts.

[tired cairn]

wow, wtf lol

That sounds so unwieldly

[soft willow]

Because they used to be base 8

[floral herald]

It's per force org chart slot not per unit for them

[tired cairn]

Ah, ok

That's a bit less insane

[floral herald]

Since they could take, iirc, 30 guardsmen, a 5 man command squad, and 50 conscripts for 1 troops choice slot

So 85 I guess

But as
1x5
3x10
1x50

[tired cairn]

Oh, guardsmen were capped at 10?

Kind of surprising

[floral herald]

They were like the "MSU horde"

Weird faction identity

Also mattered because officer buffs were applied per unit

[tired cairn]

MSU but also some extremely large units

[floral herald]

Yeah

[tired cairn]

Ah, so it was maybe a balance thing too

[floral herald]

50 conscripts with a commissar keeping them in line was a staple IG tarpit

[tired cairn]

Very impressive the commissar was keeping them in line when possibly on the other side of the table lol

[floral herald]

lol yeah

[thin ibex]

Commissar also tucked into a building with a weird conscript conga line

[floral herald]

At the time there was no need

Most armies didn't have a way to pick out attached characters at range

(and there was basically no overlap between armies with melee deathballs and armies with access to character killing shooting at the time)

[soft willow]

"look out sir" was a thing.

[floral herald]

I guess... loyalist space marines did?

[lofty warren]

i never played with it but i cant decide if force org going away was a good thing or a bad thing

it really did restrict listbuilding

[floral herald]

Oh fuck right

So they were immune to it anyway

[lofty warren]

did snipers ignore LOS?

look out sir

not line of sight

[soft willow]

Vindicare did.

Most factions didn't have a "sniper" though.

[soft willow]

More just different.

It made for a balance lever on not just taking better units, but like it just led to minimum viable troops cost ideas.

[lofty warren]

i do think it added a more verismillitude

[tired cairn]

No force org is nice in that I don't think as hard when throwing together a list of stuff I have

[floral herald]

Snipers were also just really rare too

I think more than half the armies just didn't have any

[tired cairn]

But yeah, I think balancing troops as a tax isn't a good design decision and getting rid of the Force Org might have forced GW to stop considering that lol

[floral herald]

I was like... craftworld eldar, loyalist space marines, imperial guard (2 kinds), anyone who can steal a Vindicare and... I think that was it?

[tired cairn]

Though they also didn't care super hard about balance when the Force ORg was a thing

[floral herald]

Shockingly Tau didn't iirc

[tired cairn]

Do they have a sniper now?

[floral herald]

In the modern incarnation of snipers (precision) yes

[tired cairn]

Oh, huh. Only the Firesight Team? I kind of expected pathfinders to have precision

[pastel rampart]

Tau had snipers, they were called railguns :v

[floral herald]

IIRC Railguns didn't have Sniper they were basically just very long ranged plasma guns

[pastel rampart]

"My broadsides snipe the side armor off your rhino."

[floral herald]

Apologies for the genuinely awful quality

I misremembered, they did have Pinning

[lofty warren]

Sniper drones

Also existed

[tired cairn]

Was that the sniper-esque rule at the time?

[lofty warren]

Rhey were shit shots i think

[tired cairn]

Lol at a drone focused on sniping being bad at shooting

[floral herald]

Drones all shot at BS2 because they were stupid

[thin ibex]

drone snipers have never been good, they just look sick

[tired cairn]

Is that Ork tier shooting?

[floral herald]

yes

[tired cairn]

Or was it 6- BS skill?

Oof

[floral herald]

But Sniper Drones had a Target Lock to shoot at BS3

(hits on a 4+)

[tired cairn]

Was that markerlights or is that something that you could layer on top?

[floral herald]

Separate stackable effect

Battlesuits could also have them

[tired cairn]

I have to say, markerlights is a really cool name for a laser designator

[floral herald]

Yeah I agree

Tau mostly have really good weapon names

Blacksun FIlter is another really cool one

[tired cairn]

Is that their name for night vision?

[floral herald]

yeah

[tired cairn]

That's pretty sick

[floral herald]

(Also they were pretty much the only faction which got NVGs)

[tired cairn]

See, if the Imperium called them that, they might have them too (because I think the Imperium's tech level is "whatever is the coolest" lol)

Though I'm sure the actual reason is "WWII models were more common"

[floral herald]

They Imperium calls them Preysense Sights tbf

[tired cairn]

That is a pretty good name

[floral herald]

Though those are technically thermals

[tired cairn]

Yeah

[floral herald]

But in the TT the Imperium used searchlights

Even space marines

[tired cairn]

lmao

Ok, I kind of get it for the guard, like, aesthetically

Pretty silly for space marines

[floral herald]

like every tank

[tired cairn]

I think you had to pay points for them in the off-chance you played night-fight

[floral herald]

I do like how Space Marines got fancy unmanned RAVEN-style searchlights

[floral herald]

I think so as well

[thin ibex]

i wish 10th had night fighting rules lol

[floral herald]

But they were like 3 pts or something

[tired cairn]

I don't think night fight was very popular?

[thin ibex]

it wasn't but i love scenario specific rules adjustments

[tired cairn]

Ah, that's fair

[floral herald]

In 5e at least night fight was also always possible upon mission generation

And a number of tournaments used it

[tired cairn]

I think 40k should have more "historical" battle type stuff

But I guess it is hard to do that when you have a bazillion factions instead of like, two teams

[floral herald]

tbf you could do historical what ifs

[thin ibex]

i like the idea of conditions on the field changing the value of units organically

[floral herald]

"What if the Tau Empire tried to hold Lion's Gate?"

[thin ibex]

rather than units just being good in an absolute sense

[floral herald]

I agree

I think most GW games don't do this a ton

War Cry does but it's a mixed bag

Since it also makes the game really capricious and kinda best played as a best 2/3

[lofty warren]

It used to be much more common in wargames i think

Including GW

But i dont think its really a thing in the current populat games

Maybe because of the competitive process?

[floral herald]

Maybe

I know there's pretty strong region differences in 40k metas because of different "terrain metas" with how people generally set up boards

[thin ibex]

i think maybe its harder with a ruleset that updates quarterly; in the pursuit of a somewhat stable play state; but also i personally think its cool

yeah thats a solid point tbh

terrain often sets meta more than anything else

[floral herald]

It's a really major factor and its mostly absent from internet chats about comp 40k at least

[paper bluff]

I am reminded of a my custodes vs his tau game i had with 1500 points

[uneven ember]

In BFG you could land escorts, but not capital ships
You might want to dip capital ships into low orbit to land troops and provide bombardment, which might or might not be in atmosphere. As always numbers were wonky

[paper bluff]

I would have won the full game!

[lofty warren]

Its very much something acknowledged in conversations about Infinity

Because there are constant jokes about the NA vs EU table design

[tired cairn]

I wonder if that will change with GW now publishing pretty explicit suggested terrain layouts

They made them less vague with the pariah Nexus path than the previous attempt too

[uneven ember]

& yeah but it was like a couple points per tank

[tired cairn]

I only see terrain discussion effect on the meta when talking about regional differences in it

[uneven ember]

You also had rules for fighting in a vacuum, which was just a -1 to everyone's armor saves

[thin ibex]

some kind of randomization of terrain would be neat

or something like kill team maybe

[lofty warren]

Warhammer design discussions are interesting, esp to think about the game in contrast to the other big tabletop hegemon

Similar to dnd conversations about design, warhammer convos about design rarely engage with other wargames, but other wargames are almost always in conversation with warhammer

[tired cairn]

I do wish GW used terrain other than ruins in their mission packs. But I really feel like infantry is balanced around it

[thin ibex]

having a set number of terrain pieces placed by players in the match

[lofty warren]

Terrain is one of the stuff that really defines analog games like warhammer

[tired cairn]

That was a common format in some tournaments

[lofty warren]

Completely changes design structure and balance

[tired cairn]

And there was a Canadian variant where the central terrain was fixed but everything else was placed by players

[floral herald]

Player placed terrain is such ass imo

[thin ibex]

you think so?

[floral herald]

Outside of limited cases like barricades

[untold swallow]

Is the Tactical Squad like

Any good?

It seems

Certifiably meh

[floral herald]

Yeah it makes for these really boring killzone battlefields

[lofty warren]

I like player placed terrain in the sense of "we both set up the table beforehand"

As a communal activity

[thin ibex]

its just not as good as other options generally, and you have to take 10 of em. They're mostly fine on their own

but they dont get obsec

[floral herald]

Oh yeah that's good

[thin ibex]

and you generally dont wanna take 10 infantry

[floral herald]

I mean in tournaments

[lofty warren]

Thinking about what might make fun spaces to fight

Oh in tournaments its funny as shit

Cover maybe like in KT

But also that becomes a player tool and toy that they can bring

A way to express the self

[thin ibex]

i feel like player placed terrain is one of hte only solutions to mixing it up cause you can't REALLY randomize the terrain all that much

[untold swallow]

I'm looking for a good squad to stick my Librarian onto

[thin ibex]

maybe fixed spots that you roll to see what terrain is there?

Hellblasters are a great librarian buddy

[tired cairn]

They could also just make fortification not terrible lmao

[floral herald]

What kind of Librarian?

[lofty warren]

Scatter dice based terrain placement

[floral herald]

I like predesigned terrain with player placed scatter terrain I think

[lofty warren]

Fortifications and buildings are always less fun to bring tho

[floral herald]

Clearly what we need is to bring the force org chart back and make a fortification mandatory

[lofty warren]

Just vibeswise

[lofty warren]

Based

[untold swallow]

hmm, true

[floral herald]

1 HQ
2 Troops
1 fort
rest to taste

[untold swallow]

Though I admittedly wanna play my librarian whacking people too

I may swap my Judiciar and Librarian placements

[lofty warren]

I honestly fuck with this

[tired cairn]

Also the thunderstrike bunker or whatever it's called should have deep strike or at least infiltrate

[thin ibex]

i forget what all they can join, but assault intercessors then make good librarian lads

[untold swallow]

Have the Judiciar lead the bladeguard and the Librarian the Inner Circle

[floral herald]

Yeah I like it more writing it out

[tired cairn]

Same with the sporocyst

[lofty warren]

If warhammer did that, brought fun vehicle rules back, and gave me cool spells

Id actually play bighammer

[untold swallow]

honestly fair

[lofty warren]

(cool spells being stuff with neat effects rather than like. Just doing damage)

[untold swallow]

I'll just in my head make the chainswords look like power swords

[tired cairn]

The buff spells don't feel like spells is a fair criticism

[thin ibex]

honestly i did like gw pairing down the spell choices n such, because lets be honest, often time they were non choices with like 1, maybe 2 options that anyone ever took

[floral herald]

I do miss psychic casting but not really the psychic phase

[tired cairn]

I also feel like 40k could learn about degrees of success because a 1 in 6 chance of failure that also hurts you seems like a feelsbad

[thin ibex]

and making them effects on a data card made sense fo rme

[lofty warren]

Yeah i dont mind if they are set powers

But they are so. Boring

Buffs

[tired cairn]

Yeah, no reason not to have psychic casting in the most appropriate phase

[lofty warren]

Gun under another name

I want wacky teleports

Summons

[floral herald]

Yeah most of the interesting spells are gone

[lofty warren]

Spacial stuff

[floral herald]

Like VoD or GoI or Da Jump

At least I think the Vortex is gone

[tired cairn]

A veil strength shared between players would also be very funny

The Da Jump still exists

Only does it for the squad the ork is leading though

[untold swallow]

man I've really written myself into a corner with how this chapter deploys in fluff

No terms, dreadnoughts, very few vehicles

[floral herald]

Oh sick

[tired cairn]

Also I just wrote "the the jump" 🙃

[lofty warren]

I think many games do struggle to make spells feel like spells

And not just. Damage or buffs

Even if they are damahe

It should be wacky

Like one game ive been looking at has a debuff spell that makes it so every roll of one by the affected unit does self damage

Thats pretty neat

[thin ibex]

Da Jump exists on orks and VoD exists on GK librarians

[floral herald]

This is but a pale shadow of how funny the old VoD was though

[lofty warren]

What did the old one do?

[jaunty dawn]

see also warptime just being a charge reroll

[thin ibex]

lets bring back the space wolf one that one shots everything

[past sphinx]

Space lord smashfucker is due for a return

[thin ibex]

im actually kinda glad captain smashfuck isnt a thing anymore

[floral herald]

I misremembered - it doesn't stick around and teleport any more

[floral herald]

I don't remember what Warptime used to do

[lofty warren]

The loss of templates was a terrible thing

[untold swallow]

Bladeguard Ancient (45pts): Close Combat Weapon, Heavy Bolt Pistol
Captain (105pts): Warlord, Shroud of Heroes, Bolt Pistol, Master-crafted Bolt Rifle, Melee Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Master-crafted Bolt Rifle, Master-crafted Power Weapon
Judiciar (70pts): Absolver Bolt Pistol, Executioner Relic Blade
Librarian (65pts): Bolt Pistol, Force Weapon, Smite
Lieutenant (65pts): Pistol, Master-crafted Bolt Rifle & Melee Weapon, Master-crafted Power Weapon, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Master-crafted Bolt Rifle

5x Assault Intercessor Squad (75pts)

6x Bladeguard Veteran Squad (180pts)
4x Company Heroes (95pts)
6x Inner Circle Companions (180pts)
5x Sternguard Veteran Squad (90pts)
Stormraven Gunship (280pts): Armoured Hull, 2x Stormstrike Missiles, Twin Assault Cannon, Typhoon Missile Launcher``` 1300 points so far, the stormraven is gonna have the sternguard vets led by the Lieutenant and the Company Heroes led by the Captain with the Apothecary attached. The Bladeguard are led by the Bladeguard Ancient, the Inner Circle by the Judiciar, and the assault incercessors by the Librarian.

[past sphinx]

come with us to the realm of HH

we only need 1200 dollars

[jaunty dawn]

second full move

[floral herald]

Ahhh

[untold swallow]

basic idea is the stormraven is gonna rocket to a distant objective and drop the command column off to just sit on it, while the Bladeguard and Assaults and Inner Circle go up the middle

[floral herald]

I remember a lot of LoS+Warptime daemon princes from my 4e days

[thin ibex]

warptime was carrying chaos on its back

[untold swallow]

And the list isn't done I do have exactly 700 points left

[lofty warren]

Too big

[thin ibex]

for a while

[lofty warren]

Too many little guys

[jaunty dawn]

necromunda has templates

[paper bluff]

I already have a knights and custodes army

[paper bluff]

What about legions imperialis where the big is small

[floral herald]

I like the look of LI but I don't think anyone plays it near me

[lofty warren]

None of the factions speak to me

If they do war of the beast im on board

[untold swallow]

I have noticed this list is way more melee heavy than I thought lmao

[lofty warren]

I might buy some itty bitty baneblades to convert

Idk what into but seems like fun bits

Ive been watching noe.hammer and getting creativitypilled

[past sphinx]

legions looks very fun

but ive got no local scene

[lofty warren]

i think some rules in LI are kinda wacky

not in a good way

[past sphinx]

infantry are hilariously overpowered

witch i think is pretty based actually

the humble infantryman is far to often overlooked in the scheme of battle

you can bomb something from orbit, turn it to glass, crush it with tanks and stomp it the bits with titans but you wont actually hold that patch of grass until theres a man with a rifle standing on it

[cosmic tulip]

https://youtu.be/Atfa-IHJvXo?si=H2c5fWeZ9dDrAY4Y

[past sphinx]

that being said a team with rocketlaunchers can easily outshoot tanks and outweather armored vehicles

[lofty warren]

like this is a bit of a weird rule

just in a play-feel sense

because its a rule that feels like it should make you better at something but really makes you worse

[jaunty dawn]

mm

'light' and 'light at', its counterparts, make sense as a negative

[lofty warren]

yeah

[past sphinx]

its there to stop devistator squads being hilariously overpowered

instead of just mildly funny in their OP

[jaunty dawn]

like gecko said it's a play-feel thing

[lofty warren]

i think the rule should exist

but theres probably a more elegant way to organize the game

[untold swallow]

hmmm

Which Legion would people guess a chapter called "The Lambent Ogres" succeeded from?

[jaunty dawn]

salamanders, maybe

[untold swallow]

The unfriendliest salamanders you'd ever meet

or

maybe not unfriendly

reckless as all hell

[jaunty dawn]

Test aquilon :)

really happy with how it turned out, especially since last night I wasn't feeling it

fighter has grown on me in general after doing it first because it was my least favourite haha

[thin ibex]

i do wish they'd rerelease the old stormtrooper in a refresh

for that helmet

[jaunty dawn]

hehe

yeah

[unreal cosmos]

it's them... the rainbow mafia...

[silk verge]

did u sculpt that head?

looks amazing

[soft willow]

Make the meta happen.

I have played a lot of LI it's worth getting it going.

[pulsar cairn]

Btw...custodians are different from space marines and have dreadnoughts

Can u make a regular human dread?

[soft willow]

In practice the "this only works well on this type of thing" ends up making for a good RPS from those rules.

[silk verge]

they probly wouldnt live as long

not sure, would be fucked up and funny though lol

[pulsar cairn]

That's not a no

[jaunty dawn]

I did not, KarnageKng on cults is the sculptor

[uneven ember]

Sentinels used to be Imperial Guard dreadnoughts!
Briefly.'

[silk verge]

damn i need to get a printer

[pulsar cairn]

🖨️

[jaunty dawn]

the enforcer automata from necromunda is a little like a dreadnought

they put a dead cops brain in it

uh

tbh it's kinda like

[uneven ember]

Yeah
And the Penitent Engine is pretty much a normal person dreadnought?

[jaunty dawn]

in 40k, human dreadnoughts are the norm

space marines are the weird ones for not using parts of their bodies to control everything

[remote wharf]

So necromunda has Robocop 2s?

[jaunty dawn]

there's also some skitarii flavours that are like

near full body replacement for wounded veterans

[uneven ember]

Although the Penitent Engine is less an honor and more a fate that may some day be abated with the sweet release of death

[uneven ember]

sure does!

[jaunty dawn]

mm

it does keep you alive like a dreadnought

just does so for the express purpose of prolonging your suffering

[bold halo]

penitent engine is like, the polar opposite of an honor

[jaunty dawn]

but like, if you're really bad, they give you armour to prolong it even more

[bold halo]

you fucked up so badly that the only way you get to die is being hardwired into the machine

[jaunty dawn]

penitent engine is perversely an honour because the alternative is to die in sin

[silk verge]

got a surprise in the mail today

[jaunty dawn]

the chance at redemption is not given lightly

[silk verge]

cant believe this fucking box is almost 20 years old now

[jaunty dawn]

oooh

old box

guy in the background looks like he's shooting the missile launcher guy

[silk verge]

the fucking chaos black swatch is killing me i forgot it used to be that its been so long

[bold halo]

it was a new box when I bought it

[meager quail]

As I dive deeper into 40k I'm beginning to realize that the Imperium is like 50% puns by volume

[silk verge]

yes

[silk verge]

friendly fire

[uneven ember]

There was some great flavor text about ork deff dreds and how plenty of boyz are giddy at the chance to be permanently wired into a killer robot without considering the downsides of the situation (everything)

[silk verge]

DUDE ITLL BE SO COOL WE'LL HAVE BUZZSAWS FOR HAAANDS

[finite compass]

The exact wording was something along the lines of

"It's not long before the Ork pilot learns that the downside of being permanently wired into a giant metal can is being permanently wired into a giant metal can."

Also the only thing that can dissuade a Gretchin from wanting to pilot a Killa Kan is actually observing the implantation process

And the bit about how sometimes their Gretchin instincts will still take over in the middle of battle, which will lead to the occasional sight of a giant metel killing machine waddling away from an enemy that can't actually hurt it and waving its arms in terror

[uneven ember]

god, yes
I wish there were mechanics for that, I get why people wouldn't want to actually deal with that but it's so funny

[floral herald]

I like how you have to let a deff dread rampage for a few days until they settle in

Cause they get so mad about being stuck in the kan

[jaunty dawn]

me when I said to my sister it would be funny for mercenaries to have a special rule where they swap sides

[finite compass]

According to the older codexes some of them were actually not permanently piloted

And were just controlled through a ridiculously complicated away of levers and buttons

The old Forge World Mega Dread had a pilot sticking out the top hatch

[uneven ember]

But also they get to spend some time abusing the new dynamic of "the orks are smaller and squishier than me"

[finite compass]

Once chosen and implanted into their new bodies, many Killa Kan pilots go on murderous killing sprees upon activation. Gibbering and howling, they flail about, dishing out well-deserved justice to former bullies and oppressors with their whirling saws, slashing power klaws, and chattering heavy guns. Most Orks find these bloody spectacles hilarious, at least those who are not on the receiving end of the new Kan’s fury. A raucous and violent festival atmosphere often accompanies the brutalities that follow the creation of a new batch of Killa Kans

[uneven ember]

I also recall that one of the big gunz deafened the grot crew, forcing them to develop crude sign language
which is hard because grots can't hold very many signs at once

[finite compass]

Yes!

I remember that one

[uneven ember]

good for them

[untold swallow]

You know

I just realized

This chapter seconds their best to the Deathwatch very often

I can just

Have a squad of Deathwatch Vets

To represent that

[past sphinx]

throw some DW vet pads around

[untold swallow]

I could also just do that

But I think it's thematically cool and have the 300 points to spare

[jaunty dawn]

both!

[untold swallow]

Bladeguard Ancient (55pts): Close Combat Weapon, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Pennant of Remembrance (Bladeguard Veterans Squad)
Captain (105pts): Warlord, Shroud of Heroes, Bolt Pistol, Master-crafted Bolt Rifle, Melee Weapon, Bolt Pistol, Master-crafted Bolt Rifle, Master-crafted Power Weapon (Company Heroes)
Chaplain (60pts): Absolver Bolt Pistol, Crozius Arcanum (Bladeguard Veterans Squad)
Judiciar (85pts): Absolver Bolt Pistol, Executioner Relic Blade, Weapons of the First Legion (Inner Circle Companions)
Librarian (65pts): Bolt Pistol, Force Weapon, Smite (Assault Intercessor Squad)
Librarian in Phobos Armour (70pts): Bolt Pistol, Force Weapon, Smite (Infiltrator Squad)
Lieutenant (65pts): Pistol, Master-crafted Bolt Rifle & Melee Weapon, Master-crafted Power Weapon, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Master-crafted Bolt Rifle (Sternguard Veteran Squad)
Lieutenant (65pts): Pistol, Master-crafted Bolt Rifle & Melee Weapon, Master-crafted Power Weapon, Heavy Bolt Pistol, Master-crafted Bolt Rifle (Intercessor Squad)

5x Assault Intercessor Squad (75pts)
5x Heavy Intercessor Squad (100pts)
5x Intercessor Squad (80pts)

6x Bladeguard Veteran Squad (180pts)
4x Company Heroes (95pts)
5x Infiltrator Squad (100pts)
6x Inner Circle Companions (180pts)
5x Sternguard Veteran Squad (90pts)
Stormraven Gunship (280pts): Armoured Hull, 2x Stormstrike Missiles, Twin Assault Cannon, Typhoon Missile Launcher

10x Deathwatch Kill Team (200pts)```

https://youtu.be/HCAYgGOxfR8

This made me really like deathwing knights

[lofty warren]

In that case, maybe a different name?

[thin ibex]

i mean shadowsun burned an entire hive because of genestealers

[cosmic tulip]

Genestealers are.. difficult tbh

[pastel rampart]

A genestealer infestation is akin to bedbugs in a mattress, there's no saving it.

[cosmic tulip]

Yeah GSC and chaos are bad

[pastel rampart]

Chaos can be a little easier to dig out depending on how big it's gotten, but GSC is "you have no idea who might be part of The Family™️."

[soft willow]

Yeah, it's more of an "intended target" than "weapon discriptor" which is why it feels off to some folks. You get used to it though.

[tired cairn]

Which is kind of funny because you'd think you could genetically screen people for it. Unlike chaos where it is primarily belief

[unreal cosmos]

probably my favorite ork lore blurb

Pratchett-tier gag

[thin ibex]

So is there an Armageddon diaspora these days?

[thin ibex]

Or is there now just a 3rd party to the never ending war on its surface?

[floral herald]

yeah

jesus is this the real number?

How does Armageddon... work

If its 140 F all the time

[lofty warren]

When did the uk go metric

[upper canopy]

https://tenor.com/view/sfm-soldier-tf2-meme-american-gif-24728385

Sebastian Thor

[rocky shale]

Big air conditioner

Archaeotech AC like that giant gun on the hivestorm planet

[past sphinx]

the surface is 140F but the hives are mostly enclosed/underground

and armageddon is well turbo fucked anyway

battery acid seas kinda fucked

Hmm orks are the only remaining Armageddon flora

[thin ibex]

Haven't they been imdustro fucked for a long while?

[past sphinx]

Last plants standing

Oh yeah

Skies of soot

Battery acid seas

Unbreathable air

[thin ibex]

Incidentally do they even ship regiments off world? Or do they just get recruited and then fight on the planet, tithe paid in tanks?

[spice flicker]

New points! New points!

I am amazed at the chaos knights points buffs and am strongly tempted to switch to them from chaos daemons in this crusade I'm organizing for some friends. We're starting at 750 points and technically I can bring the abominant without breaking my own rules of "no model can be worth more than half your army's total list on the table." Should I make the switch and become a chaos knight crusade force or stick with chaos daemons for now?