Warhammer and Such

[upper canopy]

Salamanders?

[untold swallow]

Oh

Yeah of the chapters it would be them

[floral herald]

Blood Angels are another melta-enjoyer chapter but not as much I t hink

The real meltheads for the Imperium are the sisters of battle though

Who have the melta in their "holy trinity" of weapons

[untold swallow]

bolter, melta...

[floral herald]

flamer

[untold swallow]

I wanna say chainsword?

Ah

[ebon forge]

Hell yeah
Biker Ork jacket

[tired cairn]

It's really funny that combat blades don't come standard issue

[floral herald]

Yeah the just punch people normally

[jaunty dawn]

equipment is kinda standard issue

[tired cairn]

But I also wish that normal 40k made Intercessors etc. use "fists" as their melee weapon name

[jaunty dawn]

now

well depends on the team really

[floral herald]

I like the character that default melee weapons give teams

Like space marines are all "Fists"

And guardsmen are "gun butts"

[tired cairn]

Yeah. Fists in particular is amazing

I think it is kind of unfortunate that the tempestus kill team uses it though. Off the mark from my perspective anyways

[runic swallow]

You’d think it’d be bayonets

[floral herald]

Yeah I think something else might have been better for them

[runic swallow]

But rifle butts are fine

[floral herald]

It is for guardsmen I just re-checked

Pathfinders are gun butts

Arbites get Repression Batons which rules

I like how Hand of the Archon have "Array of Blades"

[tired cairn]

That is pretty good

[floral herald]

https://fixupx.com/BerseriaA/status/1845074575022751822

[tired cairn]

Is the person in a back a custodes or a force ghost?

[floral herald]

You mean like the blue "eyes" near the top?

[tired cairn]

No, I mean the huge blond woman

[floral herald]

Oh, she's the custodes from Tithes ep 2

[upper canopy]

That's a blonde woman custodes yeah

[tired cairn]

Something about the proportions makes me think of those "not actually in location" compositions

[floral herald]

I haven't seen ep 3

But I think its the best of them so far

[pulsar cairn]

her face is so beeeeg everything about her is so beeg

custodes are so beeeeeg

[cosmic tulip]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Tau40K/s/90CIGkDi70

Perfect meme reaction ngl

[floral herald]

I've always found that kinda funny since Crisis Suits and Cadians have nearly the same odds of forcing an armor save on one another

[cosmic tulip]

I wish we had Onager Gauntlets and Plasma Blades back..

[untold swallow]

ha ha I decided to name all my chapters after events in the Bible even tho I was raised atheist and have never read the thing ha ha

Fuck

The Veteran Company is the House of the Fruit Tree which

Self explanatory

And fitting for Dark Angels

[pulsar cairn]

Could a space marine chapter be named after ducks and be taken seriously?

[untold swallow]

The 2nd is the House of the Blood-Salted Ground

[pulsar cairn]

Is blood salted a blood angels successor?

[untold swallow]

No, they're the naming convention of the Companies in my Dark Angels successor Chapter

Blood-Salted Ground represents the land not growing anything for Cain at God's command after killing Abel

Since this is the 2nd Company they're the Fallen-hunters

Tho that might change

since I just discovered the Tree of Jesse

aka Jesus' pre-birth family tree

[pulsar cairn]

[untold swallow]

So so far it's

1st Company: House of the Fruit Tree (Tree of Knowledge)
2nd Company: House of the Uncrowned Snag (Tree of Jesse)
3rd Company: House of the Smouldering Bramble (Burning Bush)
4th Company: House of the Merciful Oils (Tree of Mercy)

[tired cairn]

Yes, but only because Drake is overloaded and also means male duck

Honestly, it's pretty Warhammer for some chapter named "the Iron Drakes" to actually be named after ducks once you dig into the lore more than slightly

[pulsar cairn]

that's very clever actually

[untold swallow]

Figured out the last House

House of the World's Hull

[junior robin]

how about the meticulous mallards

[untold swallow]

Which is kind of cheating

Since it's technically not referring to either a single or living tree

But to the trees felled to build the Ark

though I guess the Tree of Jesse isn't a literal tree either

[junior robin]

there is also that one fig tree that got cursed.

[untold swallow]

given it's apparently meant to represent the rejection of Jews as saved by Jesus, I'm...

Good, lmao

[past sphinx]

Hello its me with half a theology degree

[untold swallow]

oh boi

I am Going to Suffer ™️

XD

[past sphinx]

Everything is a Bible reference you cannot escape it

Everything you create will be built from exposure to western canon

Its Abrahamic all the way down

[untold swallow]

I mean

Aye

But I am purposefully getting explicit with it

[past sphinx]

All your chapter leaders shod have very strong opinions about the council of nikaea

Constant arguments

Its only good and just

[untold swallow]

So funny thing about that

They do worship the Emperor in the fashion of the Imperial Creed

But love them some psykers

As the Emperor is the most powerful and by his psychic might lights the beacon through which the Imperium stays connected

So they have some funny ass conversations with Templars

'You suffer the witch amongst you?'

'Suffer? She's peers with the Master of Sanctity.'

the Templars;

https://tenor.com/view/filthy-frank-screaming-confused-confused-screaming-gif-15736028

[past sphinx]

Even better for the arguments then

The only thing worse than two people who disagree are two people who do

[untold swallow]

They all agree

Rune Priests Are Cope

[bright dove]

The TSons are seething over Rune Priests to this day.

[untold swallow]

I fuckin seethe over Rune Priests tbh

[jaunty dawn]

many will never get over rune priests

[untold swallow]

'oh we're not actually psykers, we swear'

the White Scar Stormseer two seats over who knows how filtering your use of the Warp through spiritualism works but isn't listened to cuz everyone's too lazy to translate Chogorian

[jaunty dawn]

https://tenor.com/view/obiwan-true-pov-star-wars-gif-10696797

[untold swallow]

If everyone listened to the White Scar we would've had Calibanite psyker powers

like limited forestwalking

Oh wow I wonder who this wounded king who likes to fish in this alternate dimension conjured by the leader of the Arthurian Knights Marines is

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

I wonder what this might portent in the future for certain characters

Oh my god he even will only answer a question 'if it's the right one'

[floral herald]

lmao

I'm trying to think of an exception but I can only think of one obvious one and that's the Tyranids

Who eat the rest of the turkey too and gobble up all the paste for good measure and then gnaw on the table for a while

[bold halo]

tyranids are absolutely turkey leg

[untold swallow]

The 2nd House, called the House of the Snag Uncrowned, serves a similar role to the Ravenwing formations of their sibling successors of the Unforgiven; prosecuting the hunt for the archtraitors known as the Fallen. While all Contemplatives are informed of the Fallen and aid in the hunt for their traitorous kin, those of the Snag Uncrowned are the ones given the pursuit as mandate. Spies, guerrillas, and interrogators without equal, Blades of this House gather intelligence, strike without warning or mercy, and secret away unwilling subjects of their questioning.A d d i t i o n a l L o r e

Also I like the idea of one of the Companies specializing in voidship escort

plying the pilgrimage routes, fending off pirates and xenos, fomenting a reputation of heroism

That they can then leverage into intel, backroom threatening of ministorum officials, etc etc etc

[tired cairn]

Tyranids eat all the plants too, so that night be the only faction with a well balanced diet

Though, only on like, a collective level lol

And Necrons don't eat and so are cranky for that reason

[untold swallow]

I wonder how many techmarines there would be in an extremely religious and small Chapter of Marines lol

[tired cairn]

Depends on the religion. A tech-cult one might have a lot

[uneven ember]

Okay I just can't agree that the DEldar are nutrient paste

[past sphinx]

the two cults dont really like each other

its more thin tolerance through MAD

[uneven ember]

These are the guys who partied so hard they brought Sexy Nonbinary Satan into being that's cartoon turkey leg in my book

[untold swallow]

The religion of this chapter is the Imperial Creed

Honestly given other parts there are probably extremely few

[past sphinx]

enough to keep the lights on

hell the role might even be modified

[untold swallow]

Given the Chapter is a Dark Angels successor where 1; all initiates form a squad that undergoes the final trial together for cohesion's sake and 2; all the members know about the Fallen

[jaunty dawn]

the thing is kinda the less techmarines you have the more full on tech priests you need

[past sphinx]

maybe even like a chaplian/techmarine hybrid depending on how much beef they have to the cog

[untold swallow]

So one member getting sent to another religious cult for 30 years without the moderating influence on their tongue that is an Interrogator-Chaplain?

One of the diciest of many dicey propositions the Chapter undertakes

[past sphinx]

i see nothing that can possibly go wrong

[untold swallow]

Honestly probably the end solution

'Fuck you, their techmarines have access to the Forge-Wright lore the Ironwing had'

[tired cairn]

They are partying so much they have a constant nutrient paste on an IV drip so they don't have spend time eating

[untold swallow]

Spectre idk if that's meant to parallel real world recent news, but

oof, my brother

[tired cairn]

Was there a serious thing along those lines?

[untold swallow]

cw real world sex crime allegations ||It's alleged in the indictments against Diddy that a component of his parties was IV drips so people didn't have to take longer breaks||

[tired cairn]

Oh, I did not know that

[untold swallow]

y e p

[floral herald]

The 5e codex gave the Ultramarines 27 Techmarines

[untold swallow]

Wow that is

A hilarious ratio

[tired cairn]

I guess most of the people doing maintenance are tech-acolytes?

[floral herald]

Err 28, I didn't count the Master of the Forge whoops

[untold swallow]

lmao

Well this is a chapter of

300

XDDDDD

[floral herald]

Yeah there's non-space marines who also do maintainance

But also

This isn't actually that big of a motor pool

Though I've always thoughts the 5e Ultramarines breakdown was a little small on tail

[tired cairn]

huh

[untold swallow]

Wow that's

an awful motor pool, actually?

[tired cairn]

(though the space marine armor is almost a vehicle)

[untold swallow]

Though admittedly is any of that aircraft?

[floral herald]

This is the full breakdown

[tired cairn]

Where are the rhinos?

[floral herald]

Unlisted

It's just full on tanks listed in the Armory

[untold swallow]

Okay

[past sphinx]

rhino's are used to insulate the company and thus dont count

like packing peanuts

[untold swallow]

theeeeeeere's the 31 Thunderhawks XD

[past sphinx]

got loads of em

[floral herald]

Yeah Thawks and the rest go under Fleet Command organizationally

[untold swallow]

That makes more sense

[floral herald]

It's honestly really funny to look at a chapter like this because each of those Battle Barges has a crew of like... 100k

[finite compass]

Chapter Serfs

[floral herald]

So if you break out the numbers of personnel in a chapter it resembles an independent navy with a ceremonial contingent of very badass marines attached to the fleet

[untold swallow]

Can we all agree that Tigurius is the lamest Chief Librarian?

[floral herald]

With the Ultramarines maintaining some million(s of) soldiers under arms, but 99% of the them being ship crew

[untold swallow]

btw, this reminds me

Not all Captains are Company Captains, right?

[floral herald]

No they are

[finite compass]

I guess that would also count on where you put things like ratings and servitors.

[floral herald]

I think there's sometimes a "shadow captain" for the 10th company if they're particularly large like the Exorcists

[untold swallow]

So wtf company did Titus command lmao

[finite compass]

Used to be the 2nd

[untold swallow]

Okay, 2nd

looks at the picture to see who died so he could replace them

Wait

Sicarius

Isn't bro still alive?

[floral herald]

He was replaced by Sicarius who was later replaced by Severan

[floral herald]

He got promoted to Honor Guard

[finite compass]

Who apparently as of SM2 was replaced by Acheran

[floral herald]

Or whatever Guilliman's Super Honor Guard is called

I think they have a new name

Victrix Guard!

[untold swallow]

Ahhh

[floral herald]

I think there is a promotions bottleneck for captain though

[past sphinx]

cato sicarius cannot die

hes to depressed to die

and depression gives marines immortality

[floral herald]

There's a lot of solid marines who basically get stuck in a Veteran Sergeant (and now Lieutenant I suppose) rank or get shuffled into the 1st company because there's only 10 notational Captain slots

[past sphinx]

probably a lot in the deathwatch then

[finite compass]

I know it's not his characterization anymore, but he will always have the TTS voice to me.

[past sphinx]

I CATO SICARIUS

[finite compass]

HOW DARE YOU INTERRUPT THE FEEDBACK SESSION OF I, CATO SICARIUS!

[past sphinx]

the strange fixture of a marine having character development

[tired cairn]

So that is why there is so many Primaris Lieutenants

[floral herald]

Very plausible!

[uneven ember]

But they have to pretend that the whole fleet is just an interstellar taxi service or else the Navy gets mad

[untold swallow]

I have a funny idea

For the Companies of my chapter

Since there are only five

and only one is a traditional company, while the four others are each 5-10 kill-teams in a trenchcoat

Captain isn't rly a role except in the 1st Company

of which there are like

Three

[floral herald]

An understrength chapter might also have bonus captains to cover their staff officer duties

Someone's still gotta be Master of the Signal or Master of the Victuals even if you don't have reserve companies

[untold swallow]

Truuu

I imagine most ceremonial and command roles are taken up by those of the 1st

It's where the Chapter Master, Chief Librarian and Apothecary, Master of the Forge, and Master of Sanctity are found

[untold swallow]

So so far the company gimmicks are

1st Company; Veterans and standing response force
2nd Company; Ravenwing equivalent
5th Company; Travel pilgrimage routes to become heroes of the common folk, use that rep to extract information and blackmail out of pilgrims and priests

[junior summit]

It makes somewhat more sense in the context of marines being similar to paratroopers where they don't get vehicles

[untold swallow]

4th Company is tentatively the company with the explicit secondary goal of finding new novitiates

[junior summit]

superheavy paras ig

[untold swallow]

and then 3rd I

have no idea

[junior summit]

but also yeah 40k numbers don't really make sense and that's even before they doubled the number of marine chapters

in editions past the imperium was defended by a glorious host of....about a million space marines

for the entire imperium

[untold swallow]

These companies roughly translate into the specialized roles of the Librarius, Apothecarion, Techmarines, and Chaplains

So I need a Librarian-sounding idea

[floral herald]

It's worse the high end for legion strength in the GC was like 2.2 million

[junior summit]

yeah

[uneven ember]

That was pretty repeatedly stated tho
Fewer than one Marine per planet

[junior summit]

and while the Imperial Army filled in a lot of the gaps it is really funny how small some of the force numbers get

[uneven ember]

yeah 40K numbers have always been nonsense

I feel like the 1000 marines was like half "a Napoleonic war British battalion In Space" and half a large but theoretically achievable hobbyist collection
and half just "the numbers have always been nonsense"

[jaunty dawn]

i will never think 1000 marines is silly

1000 chapters is nonsense though

[untold swallow]

The 4th House, the House of the Merciful Oils, is doubly tasked with the guarding of Shrine Worlds, exterminating threats to their serenity, peace, and orthodoxy, and finding more of the truly devout to join the ranks of the Chapter. Squads of this House often erect Speaking Houses, a form of temple and debate hall where no subject of the Imperial Creed is taboo. There, presided over by a Contemplative, both laity and priest wrestle with the great truths of the Imperial Creed. Those found wanting and those found pure alike are bid to enter the deeper chambers of the Speaking House, from which they either emerge as new aspirants to the Chapter, or they never emerge at all. 4th Company lore just dropped

[uneven ember]

I mean I doubt anyone in the Imperium can say for sure how many chapters there are

[junior summit]

is 1k chapters still canon?

I swear they went "and then the imperium made another pile of chapters because this clearly isn't enough marines"

[untold swallow]

Ultima Founding Moment

[floral herald]

It's a little higher now because of Ultima but not doubled

[jaunty dawn]

i kinda doubt it was ever meant to be literal personally

[uneven ember]

bringing back Badab War
I did love the lore drop about how the Tiger Claws had returned after centuries of disappearance and the High Lords' response was more or less "I feel like it would be more convenient if they stayed disappeared tbh"

[finite compass]

But yeah. As much as I love like the Sabbat Worlds crusade book. It's a bit funny talking about massive planetary battles with 'hundreds of thousands' of guardsmen

I get it's the most extreme example, but like...

IRL Battle of Stalingrad is a 1.5 million+ people involved on either side. In a battle that lasted six months on one city in one battle on one planet.

[upper canopy]

They have no idea how many chapters there are

They don't know what YEAR it is

[finite compass]

Yep. I love how in the 3e rulebook, that complicated explanation of how the dating system worked, it basically just outright states that the further you are from Terra, or a planet in direct contact with Terra, the more the recorded date of an event basically becomes somebody's best guess.

[unreal cosmos]

In futzing about with Horus Heresy Blackshield rules I've found a way to make it so every infantry squad has a minimum three psykers incorporated and I'm trying to find the best way to make use of that

[tired cairn]

I guess another way to make the space marine numbers make sense is that the entire setting 300s them and never talks about the large masses of nonaugmented humans around doing most of the work'

(Not that those numbers probably make sense lol)

[uneven ember]

To some degree that's just about textual.
If there's an Astartes company on the dirt there's a city flying around in the system

but yes also the 40K numbers veer wildly and almost randomly between tiny feudal retinue warbands and modern industrial state armies
it is nonsense

[past sphinx]

have you seen the 75 lascannon list?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_SbyL48aaw

[junior summit]

indomitus went "yeah okay nobody knows what year it is" which honestly does a very good job of stopping continuity errors

[uneven ember]

change the opening blurb to it may or may not be the forty-first millennium

but really the 40K timeline has always been fucked
every time someone leaves the warp no one can actually be sure if someone's callendar is off or if they've arrived before they left

[mild glen]

Me: playing T'au, carefully considering my options
My wife, who refuses to learn the rules: RUN THAT GUY OVER WITH YOUR TANK

[tired cairn]

Hmm, was the tank shock change a buff from Tau's perspective?

(My hot take is that tank shot shouldn't exist and instead all vehicles should get lance or something on their melee attacks)

[floral herald]

i can't see this post

[upper canopy]

howssat

[floral herald]

It says I need an account

[upper canopy]

how about that

[soft willow]

Still says one needs an account.

[upper canopy]

Wha da fak

there

[uneven ember]

It's making the point that 40K, as a setting, undermines its satire of fascism with the fact that humanity unquestionably does need a few good men to hold the line against the forces of depravity and foreignness or everyone goes to hell/ gets eaten by space bugs/ gets good and proppa krumped
which is a fair criticism of the setting

[floral herald]

I think its a little more complicated honestly, especially with the HH stuff there were a lot of pluralistic interstellar societies in 30k which did... fine until the Imperium rolled their shit and indoctrinated the survivors

The Imperium doesn't need to be the way it is and would be better off if it wasn't

[upper canopy]

At the same time I feel like 30k fails to not be fascistic in writing because "being loyalist" is synonymous with "being good" even in this very channel with people who know better

[floral herald]

Which isn't really like "oh pacifists would be fine" but like, you don't need to do a turbofascism just a regular sort of militarized society will do

[tired cairn]

I think there is a definitely a reading where the Imperium (and the Empreror in particular) is why things are so terrible. But I also think that sometimes the media (as in the books etc.) doesn't do a great job of conveying that

[mild glen]

I don't freshener remember old tank shock, tbh

[tired cairn]

It used to be based on weapon strength

Then they changed it to be on model toughness

[mild glen]

So, roll a number of dice equal to WS?

[floral herald]

equal to strength

[tired cairn]

You'd pick a melee weapon and use its strength characteristic as the number of dice to roll

[uneven ember]

Yeah I don't think it's entirely on point
Just that there is some inherent contradiction there
and also GW does definitely talk out of both sides of its mouth at times

[mild glen]

Buff across the board, then

[bright dove]

I mean, one side no longer works with the Night Lords and Emperor's children.

Yeah yeah, fascist military group trying to set up an absolute emperor.

But also gestures at Kurze

[upper canopy]

I mean yeah that's a situation that they wrote into being

that didn't really happen, the writers did that

and thus accidentally did a pro-fascism

especially y'know

[tired cairn]

I think "sometimes they make the fascists too cool" is a fair criticism.

[floral herald]

For me at least the old "oh it used to be satire" stuff also doesn't sit that well with me because I've gone back and read the real old stuff and it's... not that much more satirical. There's a higher density of funny names I guess but its played real straight

[upper canopy]

"oh if there's no hard men making hard decisions a legion of rapists will descend on you"

[tired cairn]

You need a military because the Tyranids want to eat you doesn't mean fascism though lol

[bright dove]

I'm full on "Both Sides are Awful" and this is one of those times where I get to be right.

[floral herald]

But what is different is that a lot of the focus of the setting is actually exterior to the Imperium - basically independent planets where rogue traders and space elves and miners or etc do business and maybe fight

[upper canopy]

Yeah the baseline RT-era 40k assumes that the Imperium is a distant thing

[mild glen]

I think the biggest flaw in 40k's satire is that it doesn't show us an alternative because it's too busy being Grimdark.

[floral herald]

And the Imperium is a sort of unpleasant exterior power which occasionally rolls in and tries to kick everyones ass in acts of reflexive oppression

[tired cairn]

Yeah, generally everyone sucks in the 40k universe . With very small pockets of don't suck who will be crushed once someone notices

[floral herald]

And at some point the center of mass of the setting POV drifted inside the Imperium instead of outside of it

[bright dove]

40k suffers from the very simple problem of "We don't need to say this is bad, that's obvious"

[floral herald]

Though I'm not sure when exactly that happened besides "before 4e"

[upper canopy]

it's not obvious though

is the problem

[bright dove]

Probably about when books started happening

[tired cairn]

Eh, well, a big reason that the chaos cults are so successful is that the Imperium sucks. And I think that is very literaly text?

[upper canopy]

and the criticism

[mild glen]

Like "here's a 'normal' democratic system that was cut off from the Imperium in M34 and they haven't had a single problem with Chaos or failed to fight off a WAAAAGH yet"

[floral herald]

(I haven't read enough 2e and 3e stuff to find it)

[floral herald]

No, I've read some of the old novels it wasn't those

[upper canopy]

like

gestures at Space Marine 2

[soft willow]

When 3rd launched the viewpoint was in the imperium.

[tired cairn]

3e Tyranid codex is definitely from the Imperium's perspective

[bright dove]

I mean. Anyone who looks at the Imperium and goes "Yeah, that seems reasonable" is already a lost cause.

[upper canopy]

entire game that justifies the Imperium's existence

[floral herald]

I think it happened during the publication history of 2e but I haven't found a point I can call it

[tired cairn]

I haven't played Space Marine 2. Space Marine at least had the "yeah you saved the world, good job. Now get tortured by an inquisitor" ending

In terms of "hmm, yeah this organization sucks"

[upper canopy]

which is still fascist

[bright dove]

Fucking Leandros, that jackass.

[upper canopy]

like that's the thing

[floral herald]

SM2 is very uncritically pro-Ultramarines

[tired cairn]

I don't know what you mean?

[uneven ember]

See, I disagree here, because "these guys say that knowing things is evil and hate is good, which is why the best thing anyone can ever do is unthinkingly die in the service of a corpse propped up in a chair that sustains its existence by eating human souls" is obviously bad.

[floral herald]

Outside of like 1 voice line you can potentially hear in the hanger which is actually pretty grim

[tired cairn]

"Wow, you can do everything right and still get punished" seems like a strike against the system

(Granted, I don't think SM made this point very strongly)

[upper canopy]

Titus is the hard man who is making hard decisions who is stopped by weak and obstructive beaurucrats from doing the hard things that need to be done

Which is so easy to read as pro-fascist

[tired cairn]

That as not my reading of that scene I guess

[bright dove]

Maybe this is just me

[upper canopy]

Because you aren't reading it pro-fascist

[bright dove]

But my reading of that scene was A) Fuck Leandros

[lofty warren]

Yeah this seems about right regarding 40k as a whole

[bright dove]

And B) Oh, sequel hook.

[lofty warren]

Idk about space marine

[upper canopy]

the criticism here is "It is incredibly easy to read almost everything 40k as pro-fascist"

"because the satire is not anti-fascist"

[tired cairn]

I mean, fascists will read anything as pro-fascist

[lofty warren]

Id argue it lends itself to a fascist reading

Almost naturally

[tired cairn]

Satire is impossible by this standard I think

[floral herald]

I don't think it reads that way, since the Inquisitor isn't weak or even bureaucratic - Titus is just getting whacked by a Harder Man Making Harder Decisions after succeeding

[lofty warren]

Even satirically its satire is undermined because GW exists To Sell Toys and thus the Imperium needs space marines

[upper canopy]

The satire is also underminned because of how much content in 40k is just

Uncritical Imperium Is Cool Stuff

[lofty warren]

40k is tugged in too many directions for a meaningful antifascist bent

[lofty warren]

And thus this shit lends itself to fascism

[upper canopy]

Yeah

[lofty warren]

Its too enamored with itself

[upper canopy]

Also guys I get that like, you don't read these things as pro-fascist because like

Yeah I would hope so, because you aren't fascists

[floral herald]

I don't think 40k was ever really satire or particularly cogent in its politics, it was basically made by a bunch of cynics in the 80s with a thesis that wasn't deeper than "what if every decline in society we see was magnified to the maximum"

It's no more satirical than Cyberpunk

[lofty warren]

You could tell an antifascist story in 40k but you'd have to do the work. Its not helping u

[tired cairn]

Also something about thatcher sucking?

[lofty warren]

Its real punk stuff. Alienated as hell

[upper canopy]

Thatcherism was the reason for the cynicism

[floral herald]

Yeah the alienation is a good one to use

Like 40k isn't meant to hold up a mirror and say this is bad its holding up a metal album cover and saying "look things could suck way more but there would be huge dudes with chainsaw swords killing each other"

[bright dove]

The "40k is fascist" stuff never really makes me feel like it's trying to be a criticism is the thing. It falls squarely into the same box as "Lovecraft was racist" for me.

Which is to say "This is why you can't like this thing"

[floral herald]

I think 40k is much more cogently fascist than Lovecraft is cogently racist

[bright dove]

Because that's what it always feels like 40k is fascist folks are trying to say.

[upper canopy]

I mean the reason this is coming up is because GW specifically came in and did a big thing about how it's satire

and that sparked the wider discussion

[tired cairn]

Was this a recent thing?

[bright dove]

Because they got tired of all the CHUDs, yes.

[upper canopy]

this week

yeah

[tired cairn]

I thought that has been the line for awhile

Ah

[floral herald]

Not that recent now some years ago

[lofty warren]

Again?

[upper canopy]

Yup

[lofty warren]

Yeaah

[bright dove]

Also, fighting against CHUDs is just an ongoing thing in the hobbyspace that 40k occupies.

Because, uh.

Boy does wargaming tend to attract that type

[lofty warren]

40k does not present a hostile environment is part of the issue

[floral herald]

40k has always been in an uncomfortable spot where its like "wow its all awful" but also "wow this looks sick as hell"

[bright dove]

That's... Rather hard to do for Games Workshop

[lofty warren]

And "wow look how cool humanity's strength is when its beating up the Other even in grim darkness there can be heroes"

[bright dove]

Pfft, says you. I started out with Chaos. Khorne for life.

[floral herald]

Yeah there are a lot of genuinely pretty heroic characters in spite of it all

[bright dove]

But yeah. This is basically the one property where I will say with confidence that "The creators were not thinking about that at all"

[lofty warren]

Yeah but why does that matter

[bright dove]

Something something insert "Wow, cool robot" meme here

[upper canopy]

WoD and Warhammer have the exact same problem and in my specific circumstances I find it very funny

[lofty warren]

For the critique

[tired cairn]

World of Darkness?

[lofty warren]

Magnetic attraction

[floral herald]

I do think GW is relatively good being hostile to fascists (EG kicking people out of events, C&Ding Arch, that sort of thing) but they could definitely do more and the setting is naturally gonna be real popular with fascists because being nightmarishly ground down by a repressive state which gives you a cool looking gun during it is the cult of the hero in a nutshell

[bright dove]

Because it's super easy to accidentally get into problematic stuff.

[uneven ember]

Yeah, because they both want to acknowledge that the setting is an unending nightmare but they also want you to think the dudes look cool enough to spend several hundred dollars on unassembled army men

[lofty warren]

The critique is that 40k is fascist

The hearts of its creators dont matter

That said i think 40k has gotten a lot more fascist with GWs increased capitalistic bent

[floral herald]

I honestly don't think it has

[bright dove]

It's getting less thanks to the Primarchs coming back tbh

[lofty warren]

The heroic depiction of space marines has really gone up more and more

[upper canopy]

Ironically 40k is getting more fascist while GW is getting more explicit about trying to remove fascists from view

[lofty warren]

Because of To Sell Toys

[uneven ember]

I do also feel like having the setting full of holy text that reads like "the only rebuttal to a perfectly logical argument is unshakable conviction - Third Indoctrinations" is, in itself, fairly satirical

[floral herald]

I don't think the space marines getting more heroic makes the setting more fascist

It might make it less

[bright dove]

The difference between intentionally setting up the fascism and going "This is cool stuff" that incidentally gets into fascism does actually matter.

[uneven ember]

maybe not especially considered but satirical

[bright dove]

Like, for all I like to talk about 40k

It's really not that deep.

[upper canopy]

I think Gullieman's return is very fascist writing tbh
if not in explicit text then at least how it was pushed and how it's landed

[lofty warren]

I agree with voy

[floral herald]

Like Stormcast are comparable to space marines (I am shot for this statement) but actually heroic and people don't have the same criticism of AoS

[bright dove]

grumble grumble at least call them custodes

[floral herald]

But if you're authentically fascist you're cool with space marines being nightmarish bootlicks cause that's the fantasy

[upper canopy]

I think because AoS just has a completely different vibe

[floral herald]

You don't need, or particularly want, them to be heroes outside of an appelation by the state

[lofty warren]

Ok in part this is cause people pay a lot less attention to AoS

[bright dove]

AoS is very different and I like it a lot more

[upper canopy]

For one being racist in AoS isn't like, the objectively correct option

Everyone's cosmopolitan

[bright dove]

... There's racism in AoS?

[upper canopy]

A little

[floral herald]

Stormcast are also different from space marines in a lot of important ways, like being reincarnated dead people instead of kidnapped children

[bright dove]

Like, yes, dislike the Skaven.

[past sphinx]

casual and competitive

elven and dwarven for instance

[bright dove]

I thought the aelves and duradin got over that?

[past sphinx]

oh their dislike for everyone else

but also each oter

[floral herald]

It's not in 40k but I get your drift because there aren't really a lot of nice aliens left

[tardy vault]

At the very least the various Order races are relatively chill and cool.

[bright dove]

Like, actually. Hold on here.

[tardy vault]

relatively

[bright dove]

The things that aelves and duradin don't like are either because of theology (FUCK YOU CHAOS)

[tardy vault]

they at least can live in cities together vaguely ok

[bright dove]

Or because their favorite hobby is breaking cities.

... I don't feel the need to comment why people don't like the Death factions.

Because, you know.

[lofty warren]

Most of the aliens being incompatible with continued human being

[bright dove]

Fuck you Nagash.

[lofty warren]

Is part of the problem

Imo

[floral herald]

Yes but this is an Imperium problem since the reason for that state of affairs is because the Imperium has actually just killed off nearly all peaceful aliens and certainly makes no overtures for peace with any survivors

[bright dove]

Now I just want to talk about how cool AoS is tbh

[tardy vault]

I am always down for chatting how cool AoS is lol

[bright dove]

Because god damn is AoS cool

I started diving into the lore to try and learn more.

And it's just rad

[floral herald]

Like the Imperium's blind xenophobia has over millennia sort of created the material conditions which justify it because everyone left is smart enough to know that you cannot reason with homo sapiens outside of small limited situations

Where is a good place to read up on AoS lore?

There's not that much in the core book

[bright dove]

I've been listening to a podcast.

[floral herald]

Well, not as much as I want

[bright dove]

Because I do plenty of driving.

[plucky token]

Yeah, definitely. There are peaceful xenos in the Horus Heresy books that just get bulldozed during the Great Crusade

[bright dove]

I am reminded of Ciaphas Cain and the Tau.

[lofty warren]

Hard to get this unless u dig into the lore. Which like, is a problem with almost all such expansive projects

Like the other big fascist element to me is how it is unable to fullthroatedly condemn the emperors vision for humanity or his project more broadly

Like the imperium could have ever been "good"

[floral herald]

Yeah the HH books touch on it but not as well or as much as they should

[bright dove]

You kidding me, it shittalks the Emperor all the time.

[upper canopy]

I think the amount of people who are not actually fascists who still believe the Emperor was a big cool guy is a sign that 40k is pro-fascist

[bright dove]

Actually, you know.

[lofty warren]

Not saying it cant be nuanced or textured

[tired cairn]

I think unfortunately all of the Emperor's fuckups are mostly in the Horus Heresy series

[lofty warren]

But its wishy washy in the matter

[tired cairn]

And not the mainline bits?

[bright dove]

The Beast plane that I can't remember the name of rocks.

[floral herald]

And something that I don't think gets emphasized enough in 40k lore is that its fundamentally a setting set in the closing acts of a tragedy - the Bad End of the universe where the never ending reign of authoritarian fascism has produced the material conditions which justify it and there is no way out and no way to save the universe from endless war until the stars burn out

[bright dove]

Also, I love that AoS had the balls to go "Yeah, no, people strapped down Slaanesh and made them Not A Problem" for a while.

[tardy vault]

until Morathi fucked it up lol

because she does

[floral herald]

But I think the lore doesn't pull back enough to bring up that fundamental tragedy (which is actually why I got into the setting and I think central to being able to call it satire of any kind) to really show it very well most of the time

[bright dove]

It is Morathi after all.

[plucky token]

It’s always Morathi…

[bright dove]

Also Sigmar is just the better version of the Emperor in every way.

[lofty warren]

Yeah

This is why i think its currently more fascist

[bright dove]

Because Sigmar will gladly sit down and go "I know what my limitations are, and I cannot do everything alone or in secret"

[lofty warren]

Its presenting an opportunity for recovery

If it collapses into imperial civil war

Ill be Very Happy

[tardy vault]

I am just waiting for the Shadow Queen to backstab her

because if there is one person in the setting Morathi has yet to backstab

it's herself

[lofty warren]

Yeah this still sucks cause hes in charge imo but also i just dont like physical gods. I dont know enough to actually critique it it just kinda doesnt vibe

Anyways to be clear i like 40k. A lot

It just also does a bit of fascism and cant resolve its own contradictions

[bright dove]

I like Sigmar because the narrative always makes it clear that while he can fight, while he can lead, that's not what he really is.

[upper canopy]

There's definitely hits and misses but you can definitely just encapsulate The Vibe of 9th To Now

[bright dove]

Sigmar is, first and foremost, a guy who loves making things.

[upper canopy]

that is NOT first and foremost

First and foremost is he likes hitting things with a hammer

it just turns out you can make things by doing that

[bright dove]

If he could just sit down and make things without being interrupted, he'd be pretty happy.

See everything that happened in the Age of Myth.

Like, sure, hitting things with a hammer is his first solution most of the time.

But then the Age of Chaos took away his hammer.

[floral herald]

Yeah I agree

[floral herald]

I gotta say this is probably the least appealing thing I have ever heard about AoS

[lofty warren]

The first rule of anything warhammer imo is that it exists To Sell Toys

Never forget this fact

[bright dove]

Well, want to dig into Sigmar some?

[floral herald]

No, probably not if he's like that lol

[pastel rampart]

He's very much not like that.

[bright dove]

I call him the better version of the Emperor for a reason

[upper canopy]

Sigmar is only comparable to the Emperor in that he's a big king in golden armor who sits on a big chair and is the main focus of the protagonist faction

[bright dove]

Correct.

[floral herald]

Again, that is repellant enough for me to not want to hear more about the setting based on that

[bright dove]

Look words are hard

Sigmar is just a cool guy.

[pastel rampart]

If you have to compare the two, it's better to think of Sigmar as what the Emperor thinkshe is: a powerful but fair ruler. Sigmar differs considerably in that he is very aware of his flaws and knows he needs help, is not omniscient, and fucks up in very human ways.

He's also not massively xenophobic nor a petty tyrant.

[bright dove]

In fact, he loves taking in as many different people as possible.

Because they come up with things he would never think of.

[pastel rampart]

Yeah.

[bright dove]

To illustrate how different Sigmar is

He allied with Gorkamorka

Not out of necessity.

Not out of enemy of my enemy.

[pastel rampart]

He originally allied with Nagash because "hey we both hate chaos so let's see if we can stop these fuckers"

[upper canopy]

He is a petty tyrant mind but like

Petty in that he will crash his car into your mailbox because your dog crapped on his lawn.

[bright dove]

Sigmar and Gorkamorka had a big ass fight, tired each other out

GM went "Dat was da best krumpin' I've been able to do in a while, yer my friend now ya git"

And Sigmar just goes "OK, I guess that works"

And this turns out well until Khorne laughs at Gorkamorka

[pastel rampart]

That's...not being a petty tyrant that's just lashing out because someone fucked with you.

[bright dove]

Also the people Sigmar aims himself at tend to be

You know.

Chaos.

[upper canopy]

He is both a Tyrant and is Petty

[bright dove]

Who are somehow even worse than they are in 40k

Tyrant implies some things about Sigmar that aren't true.

Like an unwillingness to share power.

[upper canopy]

He rules through military force, that is the literal definition of a tyrant.

The military force is him.

[bright dove]

He would rather not rule for military force, and in fact did so until open warfare with Chaos started up.

Like, the Age of Myth is him doing actual nationbuilding.

WIth the help of other people.

And also fighting Godbeasts, but Godbeasts.

Like, let's look at the people he can't negotiate with

Oh look, it's Nagash and Chaos.

What is he supposed to do in a setting where Chaos is looking at the coherent reality left and rubbing their hands together at the thought of destroying it all again

Should he try and find a way to satiate Slaanesh?

Should he let Tzeentch do whatever he wants?

[upper canopy]

i will say that I don't think Cyan actually at any point consented to learning about AoS lore

[bright dove]

Peaceful, non-violent coexistence with Khorne ain't happening.

Like, you're just completely and utterly wrong about Sigmar being a tyrant Voy.

[upper canopy]

Every King is a tyrant and Sigmar is a king is the long and short of it

[lofty warren]

Fascist logics arise again...lurking in our societal milieu

[bright dove]

That

You know what

Fuck you.

I'm not saying this about any actual people.

[lofty warren]

I dont think its you!

But i think thats fascist-friendly setting stuff

[bright dove]

I'm saying this about the fictional character who wants to murder for all time.

[lofty warren]

My apologies for being flippant

[bright dove]

This is a case of reading way too deep into it.

But hey

I guess I can't talk about the cool stuff I like in Age of Sigmar

Have a good night

[upper canopy]

I think being dismissive of it when the community has an incredibly large problem of fascism doesn't real help things

[uneven ember]

Is there a community in 2024 that doesn't have a fascism problem?
Because I'm not saying that we can't criticize GW or its setting for fascistic elements but you got Nazi bronies

[lofty warren]

Its often feels as though it emerges from and indulges in the aesthetics of 40k in a way it does not from other media properties

40k offers a wedge in a way mlp doesnt cause you have to dress mlp chars in nazi outfits

But you can just dress as a black templar and complain about woke

We see a little of this with star wars and "the empire was right" freaks

But its much more of a countertextual reading for those people

Absolutely rn we see a full spectrum anti-woke surge across media

And by no means am i saying we surrender 40k as a lost cause

[upper canopy]

It's just being more mindful

[uneven ember]

(well you can until GW C&Ds your ass get fucked Bobo)
See, I get that, but I don't think the solution to that is that a property that's unable to be read in a fascist lens
Especially since one of the lenses of fascism is military badass imagery and that's kind of important to a wargame

[floral herald]

I was gonna say “even Signalis has a fascism problem” but that’s actually super unsurprising

[lofty warren]

I mean we can open the "are wargames fascist" box but i dont think thats super productive. I think though 40k has it real bad because of its specific combo of aesthetic elements and expanse of the project

Like military badass imagery or w/n does not mean "shining fascist super soldiers who are super into purging heretics"

Like this is before even getting into how sexual deviance is explicitly one of the four great evils of the setting lmao

[upper canopy]

That is a Big True

see also: The Khan treated as being super based and loyalist-pilled for implying Fulgrim is gay.

[untold swallow]

I want big G and big J to get into a fight so bad

[upper canopy]

not gonna lie

I hope the person in charge of Not Loyalist Imperium Nilhus would be like

A New Sebastian Thor

[lofty warren]

Yeah i also want this

[floral herald]

And I am done with my homework

[lofty warren]

I also like this

Whoop ping sorry

[untold swallow]

I will admit, as a very, very late comer to this discussion

[lofty warren]

Just gimme a good civil war

Collapse the hope

[upper canopy]

i don't mind getting pinged lol

[untold swallow]

We need a novel depicting a space marine eating someone for intel

Cuz they can do that

[lofty warren]

Ur in the convo its gauche

[floral herald]

It's happened!

[paper bluff]

What the idea to get me up to speed on this convo?

[untold swallow]

They were made

[upper canopy]

I did that so much in Deathwatch

[untold swallow]

With the capability to do that

on purpose

[floral herald]

One of the Ultramarines or Deathwatch books I think

[upper canopy]

They ALSO

need to spit acid more

[lofty warren]

It shows up not inoften

[untold swallow]

it says so much about the priorities of the people who made Space Marines

[floral herald]

Blood Quest was so good for this

[upper canopy]

The funniest thing about the spitting acid thing is that they try to make it like

"oh their saliva can be acidic and applied to things"

and then the Deathwatch RPG was like

[lofty warren]

Anyways i also want more interesting chaos perspectives that arent anime villain stuff

[bold halo]

I'm like 90% sure the soul drinkers books do this but it's been a while

[upper canopy]

"They can gleek out acid like a spitting cobra"

[lofty warren]

Gimme a series about the scourged

[floral herald]

I'll also clarify that I am interested in it but because the Emperor is so skeevy as a person comparisons with him feel weird

[lofty warren]

Who know the imperium is evil

[untold swallow]

Oh boy do I have a great renegade Space Wolf librarian to tell you about

[floral herald]

I think its neat if Sigmar's just kind of a dude who happens to be super strong

Like I get the sense he's kinda Hercules but at the head of a pantheon

[paper bluff]

You know how there are sometimes the space marine chapters that have the mutation that over exhibit specific organs? You never hear about that 1 getting over exaggerated even though would be pretty cool

[lofty warren]

The Scourged rule btw fuckin love the scourged

[upper canopy]

Sigmar was just a regular barbarian dude who somehow apotheoised into a god

[lofty warren]

Best warband

[untold swallow]

Sigmar is actually cool

[upper canopy]

Sigmar is Conan if he lived in a cultivation setting

[untold swallow]

Sigmar did this magical thing called 'allying with other cultures'

[paper bluff]

Few 100 years in a magical votex will do odd things

[upper canopy]

I don't think End Times actually mentioned HOW he became a god

just he DID and then Tzeentch put him in the comet

[untold swallow]

Also, just

purely as an aside

from the earlier conversation

It is so fraught being a fan of certain factions in this game

My cousin is a Night Lords and Krieg player

And can't engage in like

half their fan spaces

Cuz he's

you know

Not a fucking nazi

[upper canopy]

that's rough

I know my one friend loves the Marines Malevolent

because in his words: "You can't even begin to pretend they're the good guys"

[untold swallow]

Malevolent fans who nevertheless persist in doing that are

Certainly something

I have seen that

It's bad

Make 'Space Marines are twisted, awful parahumans brainwashed to be absolutely loyal to a god king' part of your liking Space Marines, folks

[uneven ember]

I've been playing Templars since the Armageddon campaign.
I'm not giving them up because of these dorks.

[untold swallow]

Oh I love Black Templars

Because they are awful, complete shitheads

[pastel rampart]

Sigmar became a god in the same way most gods in WHFB did: belief. The Empire started worshiping him as a god, and he became one. That he passed over the World's Edge Mountains and was never officially declared dead did a lot to help with the initial mystique of him being some sort of god-like being and it started to feed into itself.

[upper canopy]

I like Eldar c:

[untold swallow]

Space marines not getting portrayed as the grotesque monsters they truly are has not been helped by their posterboys

Eldar are cool

[upper canopy]

Eldar and Tau don't have a nazi problem

[untold swallow]

mm

[upper canopy]

Instead it's Rampant Tankies

[untold swallow]

welllll

I have seen Eldar nazis

and we can argue over whether tankieism is at its core fascistic until the cows come home

[lofty warren]

Tau appealing to tanks is really funny

Cause its a caste society

[untold swallow]

It's cuz they got called weeaboo space commies by those kinds of Templar fans

And tankies refuse to read

Unironically the closest to a communist society, even an authoritarian one in 40k

is the Leagues of Votann

[uneven ember]

also Eldar are bigger weebs than Tau

they're the ones who spend a thousand years studying the blade and have guns that shoot ninja stars

[untold swallow]

If I hear one more time that they're fucking ancaps because they trade with other people and are the space version of dwarves I will have a fucking aneurysm I swear to God

[upper canopy]

I feel like CWE are literally just communes

Votann are mercantilists

[untold swallow]

cwe?

oh craftworld eldar

[upper canopy]

Yar

[floral herald]

I've never seen very problematic stuff with eldar likers

But maybe I'm just lucky

[untold swallow]

Votann don't engage in trade within themselves as far as I know

They distribute resources as they're needed

[floral herald]

I think different Leagues trade but internally they don't

[untold swallow]

Honestly no other faction's fanbase gets as batshit insane as Imperium fans

[floral herald]

Chaos can get pretty bad

Though that's rarer

[untold swallow]

Okay, certain Slaanesh fans I can get

[floral herald]

But I remember TORTURE_DEVICE

[lofty warren]

Most chaos fans are just real into being cartoon villains (me, im most chaos fans)

[untold swallow]

Since slaanesh fans who are fascist often go 'yeah Slaanesh is a bad guy because Queer'

[tardy vault]

Daughters of Khaine fans are pretty chill. That said, small AoS fanbase is fucking small.

[untold swallow]

Which god has turned me off slaanesh

[finite compass]

Oh THAT ASSHOLE...

[upper canopy]

Slaanesh fans are way more likely to just be misogynists

[untold swallow]

well

queerphobia, thy name is comorbid with misogyny

[upper canopy]

obv

[lofty warren]

Indwed

[tardy vault]

I suspect that if DoK was more popular you'd end up with a fucked fanbase tho

[untold swallow]

Tzeentch is the best Chaos God

[finite compass]

"Oh hey, somebody actually did some Blood Pact conce- Aaaand that's a whole-ass SS uniform, complete with disguised swastika"

[tardy vault]

Because if you dig into their lore even slightly they're super fucked up in just all sorts of fun ways.

Like, if TERFs played wargames they'd probably end up being DoK fans.

(Morathi ate the souls of all the men and any men that are still born she's has them branded on birth so their soul is being burned away)

[upper canopy]

Yeah but Wych Elves hot so it's fine

(This is not good Praxis)

[untold swallow]

I can't bring myself to like the Daughters lol

[tardy vault]

Entirely fair lol

[untold swallow]

well

[tardy vault]

I'm here for the snakes

[finite compass]

i haven't touched AoS yet

[untold swallow]

I say that like they have any innate appeal with me anyways

[finite compass]

But if I did, I'd go soulblight

Because vampires are neuron activation

[upper canopy]

I have touched AoS

for one reason

and one reason only

[untold swallow]

I am a boomer who likes WHF too much to really touch AoS

[tardy vault]

AoS armies are either 2/10 or 11/10 generally

You either love em or hate em

[upper canopy]

https://tenor.com/view/warhammer3-ogre-kingdoms-gif-26043308

OGRES

OGRES

CHOMPING ON MEATS

FILLING OUR GUTS WITH OUR STRUGGLING TREATS

[tardy vault]

Ogre range update when

[upper canopy]

god please

[tardy vault]

They didn't get Beastmen'd

[upper canopy]

See I was too but like

[finite compass]

Don't you mean 'Ogors?' 😛

[tardy vault]

so GW is planning something

[tardy vault]

fuck Copyright

[upper canopy]

I'm of the opinions that AoS on it's own is actually really cool and you just kinda have to accept or put a mental divide between it and Fantasy

[untold swallow]

Another reason I kinda h8 AoS

The name twists are feckin dumb

[finite compass]

The copyright-friendly renaming?

[granite basin]

it's so they can copyright it, yeah.

[tardy vault]

yep

[upper canopy]

I mean I can still just say Ogres

[finite compass]

What, you don't like 'Aelves?' 😛

[upper canopy]

verbally

[untold swallow]

IN THIS HOUSE WE CALL OUR FOLK THE DAWI

[lofty warren]

Its still ogres in the old world

And mordheim

Get based and mordheimpilled

[finite compass]

But yes

[tardy vault]

Oh, I only tolerate aelves because it just sounds like elves and is one extra fucking letter

[finite compass]

I honestly love Warhammer Ogres.

[granite basin]

for instance eldar doesn't belong to GW, that's tolkien lmao. won't stop anyone from using it (not them or me) but i like a plurality of names, gives a setting texture tbh.

[untold swallow]

One of the acceptable uses of AoS models is ripping things off of them for your 40k armies

Like that one Lumineth model that is

Just a fucking farseer lmao

[granite basin]

isn't one of the mordheim designers doing trench crusade?

[tardy vault]

There's a Sylvaneth model that Eldar players keeps stealing too

[untold swallow]

based

[lofty warren]

The mordheim designer, basically

[tardy vault]

This guy

[finite compass]

The fact that they made the reveal trailer an Ogre drinking song was 100% the best thing they could have done

[untold swallow]

Who are the best elves in WHF, there is a correct answer

[tardy vault]

get's stolen all the time by Druchii players IIRC

[finite compass]

Asrai

[bold halo]

dark elves ride dinosaurs so it's them obv

[finite compass]

Obviously

[untold swallow]

You're both wrong

It's the Aserai's cousins, the Eonir

Cuz we're not fuckin crazy like the two of you

XD

[upper canopy]

Ogres

they are the best elves

[tardy vault]

snakes are the best elves because snakes

[untold swallow]

Aserai are second best tho

[upper canopy]

I will say though I loved the High Elves

The Lumineth don't hit the same unfortunately

[lofty warren]

For all my critiques of aos model design outside of stormcast goes so fucking hard

[untold swallow]

None of the elves hit the same tbh

[upper canopy]

Mostly because Tyrion is hilarious

The Wood Elves do

imo

[tardy vault]

Lord Kroak is such a baller model no one cares that he should not be alive

[untold swallow]

As a whf wood elf fan, evidenced by the fact I even know who the Eonir are

fuckin

what??? XD

[upper canopy]

I think the main thing I liked about the High Elves was how big liars they were about everything about themselves

[tardy vault]

Look at this dude

[untold swallow]

LORD KROOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAK

https://tenor.com/view/lord-mazdamundi-total-war-warhammer-hexoatl-lizardmen-warhammer-fantasy-gif-25010264

[granite basin]

inch resting. i don't know if i wanna get into TC just yet, mostly bc i'm waiting for the discourse to shift away some from how it's not warhammer, and how they booted out the fascists. which they were right for doing, and i love them for it, but Fuck dude. I'd like to not hear nazis whining a bunch, but I have also deliberately done this to myself, so it is perhaps on me lmao

[bright dove]

Hey, good news! He's not alive.

Kroak just refuses to die.

[lofty warren]

Im very excited for the kickstarter so i can prove that i am of those who believe

[upper canopy]

"We hate all the other races. However we will continiously sacrifice our limited manpower and eternal lives to save a few precious humans because it is our duty and the right thing to do.

We are the most prim and proper and noble of all the elves. Our greatest hero is a blood-soaked psychopathic brute who solves and all problems by being one of the greatest whirlwinds of violence currently alive. The Lord of Murder speaks to every single one of us individually to pick up his evil sword that we ALL KNOW THE LOCATION OF."

[untold swallow]

IN THE NAME OF THE BLOODY-HANDED PRINCE

OUR LORD IN DEATH, KHAELA-MENSHA KHAINE!

[floral herald]

This is kinda where I am but I was never that into WHF so I’m unburdened by the past

[upper canopy]

Khaine rules so hard

[bright dove]

Sorry, I am a supporter of Morathi-Khaine reborn.

😛

[upper canopy]

I'm not Khaine is too cool for them to keep killing

[bright dove]

Hey now

They don't keep killing him.

He's just dead-dead.

[tardy vault]

Waiting for GW to commit and give us the Avatar of Khaine refresh that they have promised in the lore.

[upper canopy]

he's dead in BOTH settings

[upper canopy]

They did?

Like

ages ago

[tardy vault]

No

[bright dove]

Yeah, you can't keep killing someone who's just Dead-Dead.

[cosmic tulip]

Real

[untold swallow]

To go back to 40k for a second

[tardy vault]

Morathi has been rebuilding all the Khaine statues as women

[desert jay]

Is it weird that my first thought was Jaghatai and not El'Jonson?

[tardy vault]

We need a female Avatar of Khaine model

[bright dove]

I believe he's even more dead in AoS than he is in 40k

[untold swallow]

Are Aeldari who worship Khorne via a Khaine cult where Khaine is Khorne's 'son' reasonable?

[lofty warren]

Avatar of khaine but with huge naturals

[untold swallow]

Nah, I just didn't wanna name my favorite primarch 'Big L'

XD

[granite basin]

Lyin L

[lofty warren]

Green boy

[floral herald]

Yeah especially when Big Johnson is right there

[upper canopy]

The two current primarchs have such stupid names I have to keep calling them Rowboogie and Lion-O

[desert jay]

Big L is obviously Lupercal :v

[untold swallow]

I love the Lion's characterization

The Tired Competent

[upper canopy]

man

I just want Bretonnia back in AoS

[untold swallow]

Hey Voy

You wanna read my version of space Bretonnia?

[lofty warren]

I hope the lion meets cypher and cypher kicks him in the face and the lion goes "who the fuck was that" and "i have never met that man in my life"

[upper canopy]

I put down my gun in preperation for a Flesheater Courts joke

Sure lemme see

[untold swallow]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DvbAs2a3UOhfize-rEZvP0rjsaTp1Zudwchn51iTKlw/edit?usp=sharing

[upper canopy]

The Dudes

[lofty warren]

The lion being confused as fuck by cypher would rule imo

[untold swallow]

lmao

[floral herald]

Do you think Horus and the Emperor had a canonical rap battle when they fought their battle of Aspects aboard the vengeful spirit? With the Emperor taking on the aspect of the OG and Horus as the Upstart?

[desert jay]

I thought it was a card game battle

[upper canopy]

wasn't it Yugioh

[floral herald]

That happened next

[upper canopy]

ah ofc

[lofty warren]

You are not allowed to make this joke you participated in its invention

[floral herald]

They fought a bunch of parallel allegorical battles as archetypes worn as armor and then switched to the pure symbolism of cards after they stalemated

[lofty warren]

I wonder what horus's deck would be

[floral herald]

Daemon spam and chaos control

[finite compass]

I get 'it's your dudes, you can do what you want' but is it far fetched to have a Chaos Warband running around the 41st/42nd millenium with the OG Sons of Horus colors and iconography?

[pastel rampart]

Not at all

[upper canopy]

THAT being the thing they stole from us is the funniest thing ever

[untold swallow]

Not unreasonable at all

[upper canopy]

You have no idea how much I screamed at Alfa

when I learned it

[lofty warren]

Lmao

[desert jay]

There's a few canonical warbands who already do that, and room for more

[floral herald]

There’s even a name for them!

Thrice Cursed Traitors!

[finite compass]

Paradox Billiards Vostroyan Roulette Chess Strip Poker!

[granite basin]

Neoth preserved Yu-Gi-Oh bc he thought the cards looked cool.

Imagine if it's a hodgepodge of different cards but bc they're so far in the future they don't notice that Neoth is actually full of shit and you can't Go Fish with a tarot card, he's just cheating, but who has that frame of reference? Not them, he made up the rules lol

[upper canopy]

Imagine fighting off the Black Legion and then the Sons of Horus show up to save you and then also rob you

[finite compass]

Honestly

My favorite joke in those episodes

Was Magnus's whole

"Oh look! A massively complex play undone by a single card! Who could have possible seen-

...

You know what? I play Red/Blue. I have no room to criticize here."

[floral herald]

The daemon spam is 100% canon

[lofty warren]

I love red/blue

[upper canopy]

That was just Zegram

[lofty warren]

Zegram so real

[upper canopy]

You have no idea how much of Ogre Poppenang is just us letting people self-insert

[finite compass]

https://tenor.com/view/tts-magnus-suddenly-daemons-gif-18135024

[upper canopy]

Fun trivia fact

The way Spit holds his card up in HTP 4 is how Dr. White holds business cards

[upper canopy]

and all of us called him a psychopath for it for like an hour straight

[floral herald]

Also Horus is the biggest Netdecker in the universe

[lofty warren]

Voy, not that this is a new state but I cannot stress how weird it is to just be in the same room (in a sense) as someone who participated in the production of something that was not an insignificant part of my teenage years

[upper canopy]

the funniest part is definitely no one knows who i am unless i tell them

[upper canopy]

https://i.imgur.com/RIDzmGY.png

no one should do this

[lofty warren]

Oh i never noticed this hes insane

[finite compass]

I'm old enough to remember the old Alfa Legion gmod shitpost videos...

[granite basin]

the funny thing about tts is i'm getting into it proper like Now. my exposure to alfabusa was Way earlier, the gmod shitpost era

[lofty warren]

Its perfect for spit

[upper canopy]

lmao the jinx

[lofty warren]

Lmao olds

[finite compass]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K9tjoPZLFc

[desert jay]

@finite compass BTW, this is a relevant page from a 6ed Black Legion supplement

[granite basin]

i completely let TTS pass me by, bc all i knew him for was funny commander boreale memes

[finite compass]

Nice

[desert jay]

I like the Wolves of Horus the most, I think

[finite compass]

Honestly.

[lofty warren]

I've revisited TTS a couple times and its always interesting to me like

[finite compass]

I really like the idea of the Sons of Malice

[lofty warren]

How much holds up and how much doesn't

[finite compass]

But I am NOT going through the headache of doing that color scheme

[lofty warren]

Its got a lot of good shit beyond just like, the basic 40k jokes

[granite basin]

that was my actual first exposure to what a space marine or a warhammer anything was, and it had calcified like that up until like 5-6 years ago. I was In College and that was all i knew lmao

[upper canopy]

oh yeah TTS has not aged well

[lofty warren]

Also the voice acting is generally really good

For what the thing is

[lofty warren]

Ive always been curious if you folks felt a little bit of freedom in being forced to pivot

[upper canopy]

Definitely

it's give and take definitely but doing our own original thing instead of trying to write fanfiction of other people's characters is way more fun

imo

[lofty warren]

Cause htp takes a lot of the best stuff of TTS and refines it. Im very glad stuff like the audiologs made it through the shift cause that stuff in tts is all killer

I think about the primarch ranking often

[granite basin]

i should watch htp sometime, i've just been on more of a 40k bent than WoD and my autism won't allow me to be interested in more than three things at once

[lofty warren]

Its good beyond being Wod

[upper canopy]

you should do that and also subscribe to alfabusa.com/patreon/alfabusa and give us ten million dollars so i can work for alfa full time please and thank you on this episode of parkour civlization

[lofty warren]

I already do this. Give me more narrative wargaming experiments

(joke)

(i love u folks)

[upper canopy]

Turnip28 sequel SOON (TM)

[granite basin]

I've seen it, it looks sofun- i just tend to burn out hard from smth and burning out also often pushes out things my brain associates w it.

i was a cyberpunk DM who was super into the world. that was 3 years ago, and now? i could not give less of a fuck outside of my 2077 playthroughs. that pure autistic fervor just fuckin Vanished

[granite basin]

but i only have 9 million dolar :(

[finite compass]

Yesssss

[granite basin]

i do blame alfa for being my gateway drug into 40k, even if it was only through spliced together DoW voicelines

more people should do that, i think. boreale's VA was just fucking hilarious to me

[past sphinx]

turnip29?

[granite basin]

i am living proof that space marines attract the basic bitches, bc i'm fairly uncomplicated. i like big man in big knighty armor, what have big gun that shoot big boom.

[granite basin]

skip it. straight to turnip30

explain nothing

[untold swallow]

Gonna ask this again cuz I didn't get a response and wanna spitball opponents for my custom chapter lol

[past sphinx]

turnip30, so good it skipped a whole number

[granite basin]

i will cop to knowing very little about the Eldar, so I cannot help there-

[floral herald]

AIUI chaos eldar are very rare

I don’t think it’s impossible but it would be pretty unusual

[bold halo]

CWE's whole thing is not feeding their souls to a chaos god, and they've got plenty of ways to avoid that which aren't feeding it to a different chaos god

[untold swallow]

fair

maybe just a bunch of Khainite Corsairs

[bold halo]

khainite is basically the baseline for craftworlders, aspect warriors are aspects of khaine

you've got the ynnari now as a counterpoint and the harlequins for ceogorach but the majority of eldar are gonna be khainite

[faint galleon]

you and I have been homebrewing chapters with very similar doctrines (but not flavor)

[rocky shale]

Wasnt khorne the one who exploded khaine?

[finite compass]

In 40k?

Slaanesh

IIRC

[rocky shale]

"Sometime after Slaanesh's awakening in the 30th Millennium of the Imperial Calendar following the Fall of the Aeldari, the newly-formed Chaos God of pleasure and pain assaulted Khaine as he had all of the other Aeldari gods. Though their battle was vicious, Slaanesh had already absorbed the power of many billions of fallen Aeldari souls and the essences of most of the other Aeldari gods, and ultimately struck Khaine down. But before the Prince of Chaos could absorb the essence of the Aeldari war god, Khorne, the Chaos God of war and murder, battled Slaanesh for the power of Khaine, claiming the Aeldari deity as his property by right since they represented the same metaphysical forces."

[bold halo]

it was khorne battling slaanesh for ownership of khaine that shattered him

[rocky shale]

Ah yeah

[floral herald]

Watching Tithes Ep3

I didn't realize this was the Arvus Lighter Glazing Series

[faint galleon]

imperium be depicted using literally any other named shuttle challenge: impossible

love the arvus though

[granite basin]

i wish any faction was as inherently adaptable and broadly covered as the imperium

i want to get into votann, but it's largely bc not much actually exists for them and i can Your Dudes whatever the rest of it "ought" to be

[floral herald]

yooooooo its the guys from kill team

(tithes ep 3)

[untold swallow]

I don’t think I’m coming across right; I mean aeldari who are nutso for Khaine lol

[untold swallow]

This could be a fun thing to adapt for a Khornate Eldar cult

[uneven ember]

I just want some IoM drop ships that are less "zippy little lander" and more "big fat listing fucker"

[junior summit]

Apparently theres a non-zero number of non-chaos eldar just chilling in the pleasure domes not noticing the fall

Which is...a thing

Maybe not chilling but continuing the hedonism thing

[floral herald]

The model would be impractically large but a Devourer would be cool

For a dropship

[tired cairn]

I guess they are really surprised when they die

[junior summit]

oh I should watch tithes

that's the new animation, right?

[floral herald]

very big

[floral herald]

I'm a little mixed on it

[uneven ember]

hell yeah
& hey that's what Legions Imperialis is for, right?

[junior summit]

oh it's like a big caestus but guard

[bold halo]

yeah that's aspect warriors, they completely subsume their own identities to portray aspects of khaine as a way to give rigid structure to their lives to stave off slaanesh claiming their souls

exarchs are aspect warriors who get so lost in the sauce they can't turn it off and act as khaine's priesthood

[granite basin]

i did not grasp the scale of it until i saw tanks pour out of the bottom bit

[floral herald]

1 is a direct sequel to pariah and its fine

2 rules

3 is eh not my favorite of them

It's a fun series

[uneven ember]

(You can tell it's old art because it's an imperial vehicle with curves)

[junior summit]

y'know, I wonder how you pick a shrine once you've gone down the path of the warrior

[floral herald]

Also comes with a goofy tender

[junior summit]

esp for something like striking scorpions vs howling banshees

do you just flip a coin?

[floral herald]

And the Tetrarch if you hate curves

[junior summit]

I can see the pieces that was kitbashed out of

[uneven ember]

fuck yeah

[floral herald]

I really liked ep 2

[uneven ember]

I feel like there's a fundamental personality difference there.
Sneaky bastard ambush vs run screaming at whatever you don't like

[floral herald]

notice how erebus isn't included in this image

[upper canopy]

Erebus:
"God I love being evil. I'm so glad the Chaos Gods exist to let me be as evil as possible."

[granite basin]

It is a universal. Fuck Erebus

[floral herald]

What’re you doing with all those characters?

Are they all legionaries embeds?

[desert jay]

Who's the one all the way on the right with the topknot?

[upper canopy]

Abbadon

[uneven ember]

between the topknot and the skullet I gotta wonder about what exactly the power of chaos does to one's dress sense
I mean, human skin and spikes and all that obviously, but there really is no limit

[thin ibex]

The Sorcerers are, the lord has the "I can sub out the Sergeant for him from deep strike" and the termie lord has lone op and stealth

The warp Smith is just gonna live next to the pred probably or the defiler