Warhammer and Such

[solemn gull]

I think even with a plasma gun you’re probably going to need to go for a double tap

[jaunty dawn]

another good way to kill a space marine is to get a lone sharp piece of metal and then get on a motorbike and charge the marine

[upper bluff]

or to shoot them through the visor if the author wants them to die

[solemn gull]

Or stab them with a wooden stick

[paper bluff]

a human can kill a hundred space marines with just a thought

(titan pilot)

[past sphinx]

lasguns set to high either instantly punch through astartes plate, tickle them or just bounce off depending on whos holding them

[upper bluff]

we should force every powerscaler to try and powerscale warhammer as a twisted form of torture

[jaunty dawn]

oh eldar get 7" moves now

[upper bluff]

like hey what's stronger space marine terminator armor or masterchiefs mjolnir suit

then watch them combust

[past sphinx]

bolters instantly kill space marines depending on witch side of the room the marine is standing on and the color of their armor

god the fucking chaos books are dogshit about that

man gets focus fired by 9 imperial fists? nothing meanwhile he sprays wildly with his combi bolter and kills 7

[paper bluff]

something something "faith in the dark gods"

[floral herald]

People have

Extensively

[tired cairn]

I did find it funny that in one of the Dawn of War cutscenes, an Eldar Ranger dials in a headshot on a space marine and then the shot just pings off the helmet

[upper bluff]

succesful armor save smh

[rocky shale]

Rangers don't have good AP

[thin ibex]

i always thought that bolters were a little bit dogshit at killing sm

cause no mass reaction if the tip cant penetrate into the armor far enough

i feel like in practice the weapon, the plasma gun, can kill space marines effectively; or more likely wound them, but who holds it actually really does matter, in that a space marine who can see the gun and shooter will likely be able to dodge the shot

[unreal cosmos]

I believe in fiction standard bolters aren't the best vs Astartes because they were invented as a terror weapon to be used against soft targets

[floral herald]

Bolters weren’t designed to kill power armor targets

Bolters were (probably) invented to kill orks

[balmy wave]

Nope

Bolters were invented to deal with squishy humanoids

[floral herald]

I am quoting the ork codex here

[balmy wave]

They're semi (or fully) automatic RPGs basically

[floral herald]

Yeah I know what a bolter is

[thin ibex]

so it stands to reason that a different kind of weapon would actually be applied for marine killing rather than bolters, which is like shooting a bunch of rocket powered slugs at a space marines power armor; slugs that likely deflect off most of the time

if they hit square theres probably a clang and maybe some physical impact, but its not going through

[balmy wave]

Wait what?

[thin ibex]

and since its not triggering a mass reaction, its not exploding either

do they make airbursting bolter rounds?

[floral herald]

Yes

Metal storm

[balmy wave]

There are bolts that were designed in the leadup to the Heresy for dealing with rogue Astartes

[floral herald]

I think

[balmy wave]

Banestrike, I believe

Specifically for killing Astartes, that is

Various other rounds, like Nemesis and Scorpius I think, were effective at dealing with armoured targets like Astartes

But Banestrikes were made with killing Marines in mind

The only Legions that were given them were the Alpha Legion (to help their subterfuge) and the Sons of Horus (because I think by that point Horus had been stabbed)

[floral herald]

One of the older ork codexes talks about how orks are very tough and numerous and has speculation that the bolter was originally designed during the daot to kill orks since it deals such intense physical trauma

[balmy wave]

Oooh, weird

[floral herald]

There’s also Kraken and Vengeance bolts for enhanced armor penetration

[balmy wave]

Haven't Orks always had a higher T than the S of bolters though?

[floral herald]

Since the normal bolt just has a diamantine tip and ballistic cap

[floral herald]

No

That’s very new

[balmy wave]

Only since 8th?

[thin ibex]

yeah they had t4 for the longer time

[hard whale]

it's still going to be a higher kill chance than S3 autoguns and lasguns

[floral herald]

I thought they got it in 9th

[thin ibex]

9th i think yeah

[balmy wave]

I swear Nobz were T5 in 8th

[hard whale]

i guess you could say that "it's DAoT, they'd all have volkite" though

[balmy wave]

Boyz got T5 in 9th yeah

Volkite was the original default armament of the Legions

[floral herald]

I’m pretty sure this lore is older than volkite weapons haha

It’s from like 4e

[jaunty dawn]

orks are squishy (unarmoured) humanoids

[balmy wave]

Mechanically, then, why do they have T5?

Just cos they don't necessarily feel pain?

We've got the FNP rule for that ffs

[jaunty dawn]

theyve got a lot of squish

[floral herald]

To make them tougher on the battlefield without compromising on them having dogshit armor saves

[jaunty dawn]

lotta squish to chew through

[balmy wave]

Why not make them 2W by default then?

[jaunty dawn]

orks were t4 when scouts were t3

[balmy wave]

I really don't get GW sometimes

[jaunty dawn]

stats arent really intended to be an accurate account of the setting (or A version if the setting) anymore

i think orks are t6 now anyway?

[floral herald]

I think they’re T5 base

But some bigger ones are T6

T5 is basically their niche for being very tough I think

[balmy wave]

All Ork infantry is T5

Gretchin are T2

[jaunty dawn]

oh yeah

[balmy wave]

And Meganobz are T6

[jaunty dawn]

t5

nobz didnt go even higher but have 2 wounds. and then meganobz got +1 t like terminators did

or vice versa idk

[balmy wave]

So bolters wound them on 5s

[balmy wave]

Yeah Nobz having 2 wounds has been the case since 8th

Boss Nobz for Boyz have 2W 5+S

But Nobz in Nobz have 2W 4+S

[floral herald]

Nobs had 2W back in 5e

4e

Which made them fuckin demons then

[balmy wave]

The Runtherd for Gretchin is a Nob apparently too, considering he's got 2W

[floral herald]

Since D2 hadn’t been invented yet :p

[jaunty dawn]

yeah no one had 2w basic infantry

at least till tyranid warriors became troops

strength 8 existed though

runtherd is a...special boy

idk the collective name

hes like a mek

[balmy wave]

Most Ork infantry is just Boyz and maybe a Nob as the leader

[jaunty dawn]

or more like a spanna really

[balmy wave]

But Flash Gitz are all Nobz

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

they're vets

rich rich vets

[balmy wave]

Spanners are actually Boyz

[thin ibex]

I dont really have an issue with orks being T5 1w instead of T4 2w; the idea is that they are incredibly tough but have shit for armor

so when things overcome their toughness

they die

i dont really see the 2w option being any more obvious than the T5

generally it does wonders for them

which they kinda need

[balmy wave]

Nobz are deliberately more elite, much more comparable to space marines

[floral herald]

It also means that the sort of rare class of high strength low damage low AP weapons work very well on them

Like scatter lasers

[balmy wave]

But instead of 2W T4 Sv3+, they're 2W T5 Sv5+

[thin ibex]

multilasers need a home, adopt one today

[pastel rampart]

Or heavy bolters, or frag missiles (sometimes, and mostly en-mass) .

[thin ibex]

chimera multilaser actually having a role

i still stand by my age old stance that there should be more multilasers and less heavy bolters in the guard (not the hb being entirely gone, but just less)

[past sphinx]

multilasers are cool as hell

[floral herald]

Tru

[granite basin]

Wouldn't the whole "exploding after burrowing into a target" bit be very dangerous in the way of spreading ork spores?

[finite compass]

Spores don't really get spread en-masse until after an Ork dies

[jaunty dawn]

by the time you're fighting orks its past the point worrying about minimising spores usually

[wintry mist]

I'm gonna be starting a wrath and glory campaign on thursday

(They are humans in the farsight enclaves)

had a thought... would a deathwatch marine be too much for a big bad while they're tier 1?

[soft willow]

Not if he’s already heavily injured after killing something way cooler than the party.

[wintry mist]

I plan on introducing him early and then having the big thing being figuring out how to kill him

[pastel rampart]

https://x.com/rnrqkq123/status/1833159905118966015

Octosoup 🐙 ( COMMS CLOSED! ) (@rnrqkq123) on X

Wow, Hatsune Miku!!!! 🥬

Twitter · Sep 9, 2024, 3:05 PM

[wintry mist]

concept is that he was sent by the Ordo Xenos to cause dissent and aid a human rebel group on Gue'vesa'rio

[solemn gull]

Pretty reasonable considering how strong WanG characters are

If you need some henchmen for the marine you could have a few deathwatch serfs with him

[wintry mist]

for tier 1?

I was planning on just like... dudes

either way I have a gang in mind

[floral herald]

Probably

[wintry mist]

I think a deathwatch kill marine might also not make sense

[floral herald]

I think a DW marine would be T4 (I made them T4 haha) and when I ran a DW game they killed about 30 T1/T2 enemies within 1 combat round

[wintry mist]

💀

[floral herald]

T1 PCs are stronger than that but space marines scary

Now “how do you kill a guy who is that dangerous?” Is a great question for the players

But direct combat will probably end badly haha

[wintry mist]

the idea is that they will encounter them on a joint mission with a group of fire warrior breachers

who will all get brutally slaughtered

[solemn gull]

he should probably be a Mr X type resident evil guy until they can figure out how to kill him/slow him down by crashing trucks into him

but yeah it should be good

although he might oneshot a pc but you know, it's 40k

[upper canopy]

Not as a big bad

[wintry mist]

I was going to have their handler suggest using imperial chemical weapons on him

[solemn gull]

that could do it

[upper canopy]

I had a t2 party fight several bullgryns and scions

[solemn gull]

but treat him like adam smasher or something similar

[upper canopy]

And they decimated with only one major injury

[wintry mist]

yeah that's the idea

[solemn gull]

please keep me updated though this sounds very interesting

[wintry mist]

they will hear him and see his bolter obliterate some poor fire warrior before they actually see him

[upper canopy]

Oh are you doing a Tau game?

[wintry mist]

they are humans in the Farsight Enclaves

or well, mostly humans

still waiting on a character

[solemn gull]

would be funny if they had an ork

[upper canopy]

Yeah I also ran a Tau aux game

A space marine is deadly but not insurmountable

So long as the squad has access to larger Weaponry

[wintry mist]

yea

oh I was thinking of what I could do with like, ex-mechanicus hereteks

I was imagining that they have been sidelined by the human government and are no longer a major state organ

but they don't want to lose their power so they have become a massive industrial megacorp

the humans on Gue'vesa'rio don't really have a concept of "doing things differently to the Imperium" because it has literally been the only thing people have done for like 10,000 years

so almost all it's organization is based on the imperium but with a less tyranical twist

(I am having my cake and eating it too)

Gue'vesa'rio is largely sort of... on it's own because the Enclaves doesn't have the resources to actually give it the stuff it needs to be on par with the rest of the T'au worlds because it itself is constantly at war

[upper canopy]

Then yeah just plasma cannon a space marine

[wintry mist]

if they can get their hands on one

and if it doesn't kill them first

I forgor how WanG initiative worked

but I will not pull punches when I play a space marine

they know who to shoot and what to do

[upper canopy]

Players always go first

Then enemy

Then player

Unless you steal

[wintry mist]

makes sense

definitely gives them an advantage

don't miss

[tired cairn]

I think one of the modules has a fight between low tier PCs and a chaos space marine waking up. And part of the gimmick is trying to shove the groggy marine back into the cryo sarcophagus

[floral herald]

lmfao

[upper canopy]

One time I played rogue trader and we beat several daemons by dumping industrial lube on them to have them fall downback into their portals

[paper bluff]

could not have been slaanesh daemons

200% slaanseh daemons know how to skate on lube

[upper canopy]

Nurgle

And yes

The great unclean one could skate on lube

[past sphinx]

recalling the cursed memory that kharn canonically looks like your hillbilly cousin

i have personally seen this man smoke meth while driving

[unreal cosmos]

your experiences are not universal but they fascinate me

[past sphinx]

real professional hater hours

[runic swallow]

NOOOOOO

[mild glen]

The natural environment of a Lamenter

[pastel rampart]

Galaxy's happiest Lamenter.

[runic swallow]

I hate you all

Monsters

[pastel rampart]

https://fxtwitter.com/WolfdawgArt/status/1833317679513346080

https://fxtwitter.com/WolfdawgArt/status/1833317740519583763

[past sphinx]

god i want SSlyth to get some modern love

[pastel rampart]

More armies need more weird alien freaks in'em.

[past sphinx]

world to horny for snake people these days

always has been come to think of it

[pastel rampart]

There's a reason I keep this meme on my desktop.

[past sphinx]

hmm i should replay xcom 2

maybe chimera force

having built several chaos kits i now understand blood for the blood god means you are going to fucking stab yourself several times with these boys

those spikes are no joke

[uneven ember]

Can I say something without everyone getting mad

[pastel rampart]

You can say "would," it's fine.

[paper bluff]

just don't think too hard about the why of a reptile having those and the fact that sslyth usually hang out with the dark eldar

[past sphinx]

they have all the warm rocks?

[thin ibex]

I doubt this is an effective list, but I could see it working

Very silly

Mass +1 to wound makes up for a lot

But no staying power

[wintry mist]

Grenade launcher...

[balmy wave]

Yes

[wintry mist]

not as like, a bossfight but as "oh fuck. How do we kill this thing?" over the course of multiple sessions

[balmy wave]

Oooh

Hmm, if it's over multiple sessions I reckon you could reasonably have a whole Deathwatch Kill Team

But that's gonna be a sizeable feature

Four Deathwatch vets vs what, 5 or 6 Gue'vesa with their T'au allies?

[wintry mist]

I think a deathwatch kill team would be a bit much, and overkill for why they're there

[wintry mist]

to be fair their "T'au Allies" will eventually come to include the general of the entire Gue'vesa forces who is on farsight's war council

[balmy wave]

So what happened to the rest of this particular Marine's team, is it just a Malum Caedo situation?

[wintry mist]

deathwatch send in what they call Kill Marines for when it's not quite worth a whole team

kill marines

are a STUPID name

[balmy wave]

Oh, I've never heard of that

It is a stupid name

[wintry mist]

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Deathwatch_Kill-marine

it's so cool though

"It's called a kill marine because a killteam is a team, but one marine would be a kill marine"

[balmy wave]

Is a Kill Marine generally more capable than the constituent members of a Kill Team?

And from what chapter does your particular dude hail?

Because that may dictate his tactics and behaviours

[wintry mist]

I think Kill-Marines are usually chosen from a pool of exceptional candidates

[balmy wave]

So that's what makes him a bit of a larger feature

[wintry mist]

Also he might be raven guard

[balmy wave]

I think if you wanted to down the ante you could have him be the survivor of a failed/foiled landing

[balmy wave]

Definitely lends itself to the lone operative style

[wintry mist]

the idea is that he is aiding a growing cell of imperial cultists that is being fostered by the Ordo Xenos

in preparation for a larger scale invasion by the Ordo Xenos

Whether Gue'vesa come under the purview of the Ordo Xenos or Ordo Hereticus is beyond me

they probably argue about it endlessly

[balmy wave]

One Marine still feels like quite the underestimation of the T'au forces

[wintry mist]

The way I have built up Gue'vesa'rio is that it is largely undeveloped by tau standards due to the constant wars farsight is engaged in

[balmy wave]

If you go for this, your players could happen upon the crash site

[wintry mist]

that could be good

[balmy wave]

Giving them maybe a bit of an edge in the actual confrontation

[wintry mist]

A Deathwatch Killteam was sent but only a single marine survived, meaning they had to change up their strategy

[balmy wave]

Yup

[wintry mist]

the T'au took the...

Is the thunderhawk vaccuum capable?

it is

They took the Thunderhawk down in orbit and in their hubris decided "There's no way anyone could have survived that"

though why the crash site hasn't been completely scoured for parts and technology yet escapes me

[balmy wave]

Perhaps it was more of a literal Malum Caedo situation?

Drop pod from orbit, took a glancing blow from the T'au defenses, and their knowledge of drop pods makes them believe that even a blow like that will have killed all the payload

So no point in recovering anything

[balmy wave]

Or, rather than a Thunderhawk, it was simply a Stormraven

I believe those are vacuum-capable too, though not for as long

[hard whale]

the wreck isn't going anywhere, they didn't have anyone available to go search it yet. Doesn't need a big explanation

[balmy wave]

Thunderhawks are pretty big, mind you

[wintry mist]

that's true, but if they wanted to keep it under wraps then it'd be important to secure the site asap

since idk if you could really put a propaganda spin on "The Imperium tried to send space marines to the human world"

afaik the farsight enclaves have never actually fought the Imperium

as a faction, atleast

[balmy wave]

Skirmishes I'm sure, but probably not actual wars

[wintry mist]

actually no, they have helped the T'au during their wars

yeah

[balmy wave]

Their conflicts have been with Orks, Chaos, and the Nids

[wintry mist]

never where the Enclaves have actually been under threat by the Imperium, or even a target

[balmy wave]

Because the T'au are barely a target as is, especially in the Era Indomitus

A handful of systems wouldn't even be a blip on the Imperium's radar

For the greater Imperial war machine, that is

The Inquisition is kinda its own thing sometimes, and you might have an inquisitor who really fucking hates T'au hence their operations

[wintry mist]

yeah that's the idea

also one of the player characters defected from the Inquisition after being sent there just to spy on them

so it's also a "oh. this place is dangerous to our integrity." thing

[balmy wave]

Ah, a former interrogator perhaps or not quite at that stage yet?

Just an acolyte

[wintry mist]

just an acolyte

not really meant to do anything but observe and eventually integrate with imperial cultists

[balmy wave]

I wonder how they felt when they found out everyone was still allowed to worship the Emperor

[wintry mist]

it's sort of unique in that regard, emperor worship has taken on a different form and while the Gue'la government isn't strictly theocratic it is still informed by their weird syncretic religion

the crux is that after Goge Vandire's whole shebang the emperor abandoned the Imperium and decided to hedge his bets on the T'au, believing that the T'au could fix the tyranny of the Imperium and get humanity on the right track through the Greater Good

Do the dates add up? Not particularly, but imperial bookkeeping isn't particularly accurate

The Cult Mechanicus is also a nexus of discontent. Many of their high ranking members were dragged along when the planet was settled hoping to basically be given free reign to do whatever they want but were sidelined from the government after they realised that if they really needed something, the Earth Caste could support them

Unfortunately the Cult Mechanicus is still the center of human knowledge and because the human government sidelines them, they have kept much of their technology a secret and this means the Gue'Vesa serving in auxillary roles are reliant on T'au knowledge and technology. Which is something the Enclaves are both reluctant to share and do not have in abundance

Similarly the human government still has many holdovers from the Imperium, including the Inquisition who are more akin to say the Stasi or other secret police, split into the Ordo Interior and Ordo Exterior. The Ordo Interior is basically meant to keep the peace and root out heretical cults, the Ordo Exterior is a largely smoke and mirrors attempt to push their version of the Imperial Cult on Imperial worlds

The government even has the imperial tithe system in place but due to their poor logistics and inability to properly ration goods, they have resorted to privatizing most of the economy. This means they have come up with a radical new concept called monetary taxes

[spice flicker]

Trying to help a friend learn the game using tabletop simulator and he is wanting to play/learn custodes. What is a good faction in which I can make a small list (750 pts) that can help highlight the strengths of the custodes as well as give him a little bit of a challenge. I considered space marines or tyranids but any other suggestions?

[floral herald]

Consider combat patrol

[spice flicker]

Really he is wanting to test out if his 750 points list for our crusade is good and never played 40k before so I am using the test battle as a way to teach him as well.

[south axle]

Doesn't crusade start at 1000?

[spice flicker]

They voted to start at a lower point total to have less models to learn how to use at first and to have more battles to accrue experience. Most are playing new armies and it wasn't a big deal to me if we started at 1000 or 750 so I let them pick.

[past sphinx]

space marines, no suprisings or hidden "no this guy actually phases through dimensions to deal 4 damage"

[spice flicker]

The list my friend is thinking of using but isn't sure if it is good or not. (Wanted him to make his own list with units he thought might be good and enjoy using.)

Shield captain
5x Custodian guard
5x prosecutors
3x venatari
Achillus dreadnought

[past sphinx]

its okay, sisters are absolutely a waste though

t4 aint got a place round these golden halls

[spice flicker]

I keep telling him that he should just use them as a home objective holder but we will see.

At least the didn't go with only sisters of silence

Any interesting space marine units I can throw at him that can be challenging but also good at showing off what custodes can do?

[past sphinx]

bladeguard, maybe a brutalis

are those guard with spears or shields?

because melty melty boys would be good

hide em around the corner and pop out and blast em when he overextends

[spice flicker]

I think spears which is what I suggested but idk if he went differently.

My initial idea but am working on changing it.

Lancer can likely take down the dreadnought without much worries but his other units might deal with it quite effectively if my experience is anything to go by.

[pulsar cairn]

are tzeench followers the least crazy of the 4 chaos gods followers?

i always have the vibe that they are the biggest jerks and back stabbers

[pastel rampart]

They're crazy in a different way.

They're always scheming and focusing on their schemes which is a bit of an obsessive trait, and because they assume they're the smartest person in the room at the time (especially around other Tsons) they have a megalomaniacal streak.

Plus, y'know. All the witchcraft they get up to. That ain't good for the brain.

[thin ibex]

they literally never ever ever expect tzeentch to use them like a pawn/pull a rug out from under them

regardless of how often it happens

because they're convinced that they're the master schemer, tha they've got it figured out

[pastel rampart]

Yeah lmao

They all think they're the puppet master, which is incredibly delusional.

It's what makes them fun because it's like having an entire legion of Skeletors and Starscreams. You get to watch them confidently bumble into their own failures.

[thin ibex]

100%

oh @soft willow https://youtu.be/nyQdcSQ_59s?si=KtAWgaR2nARbgZJE Knights featured in a monster mash

[pastel rampart]

Monster mash seems fun.

[thin ibex]

i enjoy its matching like for like

so you have nid norns vs knights

[spice flicker]

Still need to watch this one later

[paper bluff]

You'd have to define crazy in this case. Cognizant, I.E. able to hold a conversation?

Cause that might be nurgle followers. Most are a decent sort but they would like to convert you to the ways of nurgle.

[past sphinx]

theres some really normal tzeench worshippers

theres very normal worshipers of all the chaos gods

i think the main character in one of the warhammer crime novels is a tzeench worshipper

[pulsar cairn]

least crazy in this case being more that they seem to be more in control of their mental faculties

[paper bluff]

Huge quotes around "normal"

[past sphinx]

you only start to get the really bad shit when the die has already been cast

[paper bluff]

I don't think there would be a character in the whole of 40k that could be called "normal" and "not crazy"

Ciaphus Cain (hero of the imperium) is a reasonable man but I wouldn't call him normal or not crazy

[pulsar cairn]

i suppose nurgle followers are also pretty aware of who they are

[past sphinx]

nah thats exactly the opposite

[pulsar cairn]

[past sphinx]

nurgle followers are absolutely delusional

[pulsar cairn]

they stinky

[past sphinx]

they see the decay and rot in their flesh as a gift

but that worship could just as well start as a god of harvest, the cycle of life

[thin ibex]

they're completely delusional, they're just (as far as chaotic followers go) comparatively chill and agreeable. They just also want to infect you with like... the worst diseases imaginable as a friendly gesture

[pulsar cairn]

[thin ibex]

they completely understand you dont want that, but only because you just dont get it

[paper bluff]

Thus the conversion talk i mentioned

[pulsar cairn]

that's why i prefer khorne, cause at the very least i'll die quick

[past sphinx]

all feeds the thirsting gods

[thin ibex]

khorne is definitely the one to kill you fastest

[past sphinx]

all 6 chaos gods

[thin ibex]

it will be terrifying

but you'll be butchered like meat

not confounded, infected, or tortured

[pulsar cairn]

i feel like even if they are using a chainsword, they are so hecking strong that i'll just die from the impact

[paper bluff]

Hashut is vaguely reasonable but that's chorfs

[pulsar cairn]

slaneesh and khorne followers tho also feel completely lost in it specially world eaters and emperor's children

what does Hashut want?

[thin ibex]

oh is the deep warp a thing or is it just fanon?

[paper bluff]

Tyranny and control

[pulsar cairn]

[past sphinx]

canon

well

horus heresy canon

[thin ibex]

ah neat, is there a place i can read up on it?

lexicanum seems ot have nothing

[past sphinx]

its a short passage in Path of heaven

‘There are layers,’ said Veil, impatiently. ‘Yes, there is stratum aetheris, the shallow ways. There is stratum profundis, the greater arteries, plunging deeper. There is stratum obscurus, the root of the terror. How does this help you? No living man can navigate the deep ways. Even he could not.’

‘But you try to map it.’

‘It could not be done.’ Veil shook his head with frustration. ‘He was wrong about that, at least. It is not a mirror. It moves like a living thing. It is a living thing. Touch it, and it trembles.’ He briefly lost his certainty. ‘I do not have the Eye, but still I have seen things. I have studied what they study. The complexity is… immortal.’

‘Try to explain.’ Yesugei spoke softly. ‘I am fast learner.’

Veil exhaled, his eyes widening. ‘The Seethe is an ocean. All know this – it has currents, it has depths, it has storms. Near the surface, you can see the Cartomancer’s light. You can follow it. You can use your Geller aegis, and you are kept barred from the Intelligences. But even then, you are just below the upper limits. Go deeper and the aegis shatters. The lights go out. The Eye is blinded. When men say that they traverse the warp, they boast, for no mortal does more than skim across eternity’s face, like stones thrown by a child. We do not belong there. It is poison for us, and the deeper in, the worse the poison.’

‘Achelieux try to go deeper?’

‘Who knows? Maybe. He did not succeed. Do you know why not? Because it is impossible. It takes the power of a tormented sun just to puncture the shallowest shoals. No energy in our arsenal could possibly pierce further. String the reactors of a dozen battleships together, double their potential, and still it would not be enough. So no, he did not succeed.’

i believe this is basically everything on it

the warp is wide and deep and the big 4 are just the big ones on the surface

[thin ibex]

huh, that doesnt seem to imply that the 4 chaos gods are only on the surface layer by my read at least

if anything it supports the idea that everything happening in real space is just a small game to them ultimately, as they're so much bigger than anyone in realspace can even guess

[past sphinx]

Malal and emps cramming in there as well

setting up door mats and putting towels in the bathroom

[paper bluff]

It's all true. None of it is true

[pastel rampart]

https://fbi.cults3d.com/uploaders/30819892/illustration-file/a15b7ab6-0767-4a56-af7a-112fd18d801a/1.png

[wild fog]

There are absolutely tzeentch cultists who would be far from normal, and the normal ones are normal in the way a serial killer might be.

Pretty far from

[past sphinx]

the main character of bloodlines is a tzeentch cultist and hes just a dude

not every good emperor worshiping soul is a cawdor level freak

hell the loyalists in that book are uhh well more freak that he is

[bright dove]

The Gods reward you the more of a freak you are (in serving them)

[past sphinx]

miracle dice work for both cawdor and the sisters

[weary dragon]

https://x.com/WolfdawgArt/status/1833317679513346080

WOLFDAWG ART (@WolfdawgArt) on X

Hissssster of Battle

(sslyth)

#conceptart #warhammer40k #warhammercommunity

Twitter · Sep 10, 2024, 1:32 AM

[pine matrix]

What I wouldn't give for a plastic sslyth

Even more for a whole plastic archon court

[weary dragon]

They are so cool

I'd try to make something akin to a Viper Pod like from X-Com 2 if we had good Sslyth models

[pulsar cairn]

I feel like slaneesh likes freaks in all meanings of the word

[solemn gull]

There are probably normal-ish slaneesh cultists. Like hey maybe there’s just some cult that really likes figure skating.

[thin ibex]

i think its all a matter of when you are encountering the cult

there is probably a level of normalcy in every chaos cult in its early days

and maybe even in the middle

[wintry mist]

yeah like I wont lie

a tzeentch cult starts from an unsanctioned book club

and ends with a daemon world

people who would like not to be oppressed will naturally trend towards chaos and not wanting to be oppressed is a normal thing

[past sphinx]

do you like painting? you ever gotten really into a kit or a canvas? like when the work just flows from your brush and you dont realize its been 6 hours? thats slannesh right there baby!

[wintry mist]

been thinking about making a shopping list of 40k models I want to buy to make my first army

[past sphinx]

3 warhounds

[wintry mist]

Been really digging tempestus scions but they're so expensive...

I don't really know how 10th edition rules work

when I did a tempestus scions army on TTS it was 8th edition rules and I used two detachments, with one for armour support and the main detachment was scions

but idk if that works anymore

[rocky shale]

Detachments work completely differently

They're non battleline infantry so you can only run 3 units of scions

[wintry mist]

oh

that fucking sucks

:(

[thin ibex]

nah if you run a tempestus scions command squad as your lord

you can run scions as battleline, letting you bring 6

[rocky shale]

That's 60 scions

[thin ibex]

which lets you bring 3 command squads and 6 scion squads

thats a fair amount of scions to be fair

[wintry mist]

that is a lot of scions

[thin ibex]

accounting for transports and other support

and its 75 scions counting the command cquads

[wintry mist]

I'll need to read the new rules tbf

[rocky shale]

Does mean you can't take lord solar though, which is rough

Because he's really good

[thin ibex]

ehhh, its fine, he's good but hes not obligated to be in every list

if i was going hard into scions as a theme list i prolly wouldnt bring him

[wintry mist]

I just fw the scions

I dont fuck with johnny horseback as much as a group of silly officer dudes in berets

[rocky shale]

810 points for 60 scions and 3 command squads

[wintry mist]

that's pretty good

you can take multiple detachments right?

[rocky shale]

No, a detachment is just a like army subfaction now

[wintry mist]

what the fuck

this edition blows smh...

[rocky shale]

And until they get a codex, guard only has one option

[rocky shale]

There's no restrictions on what units you can take

[wintry mist]

ic

[soft willow]

You're applying old expectations to a new version of the rules.

The words no longer mean the same things at all.

[wintry mist]

ic

I will try and source a 10th edition CRB

[soft willow]

Detachments are your army rules functionally and they're swappable.

[rocky shale]

990 points gets you 75 scions and 2 taurox prime for the 100% scions 1k list

[soft willow]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/dLZIlatQJ3qOkGP7.pdf

Those are the basic rules for 10th free on GW's site.

[rocky shale]

The app also has all the guard rules for free too

[wintry mist]

ic

[rocky shale]

They don't have a codex until next year

[soft willow]

All the Index rules are free until the codex comes out yeah.

[wintry mist]

My main thing was I wanted to bring a small unit of like, leman russes alongside too...

scions with armour support...

[soft willow]

You can do that.

[floral herald]

Yeah that’s easy

And sort of mandatory, it’s quite challenging to run no-armor guard in 10e imo

[soft willow]

It's a very specific and skewy build to make it work.

Also not likely to see play.

[rocky shale]

Rip parking lot guard

[soft willow]

Parking lot is actually pretty good right now.

Demolishers pushing up with annhilators and Dorns as more backline support.

[wintry mist]

I would imagine yea

[rocky shale]

Yeah, plus even with a bunch of scions, you really need tanks to deal with armor

[wintry mist]

yea

[rocky shale]

Scions with meltas and krak launchers won't do all that much

[thin ibex]

Quick and dirty scions list

And yeah I think it'd be better with a dorn or two, or a couple demolishers

But I figured tauroxes are the traditional pairing for them

Primarily you're relying on wound rerolls for armor killing

[wintry mist]

oh damn taurox prime got tha stuff

[thin ibex]

Taurox prime combos well with melta or plasma guys imo. Sadly it's guns don't target heavy armor well, but they're fun

[wintry mist]

wait no the taurox prime missiles aren't what I thought they were

was hoping it was gonna be like AT missiles

M2 Bradley wid tha TOW type beat

[thin ibex]

Technically they are, with d6 damage, but they don't really wound well

I think the t prime is a fun model rough

Though*

Just can't really engage things above light Armor and heavy infantry

[wintry mist]

yeah

[thin ibex]

The battle cannon is probably the better generalist pick

[wintry mist]

mmmm

is the autocannon any good?

[thin ibex]

On the t prime?

[wintry mist]

ye

or is that the battle cannon

[thin ibex]

That's the battle canon, it can have autocanmons on the sides or hotshot lashuns

[wintry mist]

ah ic

[thin ibex]

I usually like the hot shots for volume fire, but the autos are great for hitting hard

[wintry mist]

I was thinking of grabbing the autocannon for- that

and then giving the squads volley hotshots

[thin ibex]

Definitely a way to do it

Just remember the prime has to hit a target to give the men inside the wound rerolls

But mass volley guns is fun because it's a withering hail of gunfire against infantry

[floral herald]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/09/11/chaos-kill-teams-let-the-galaxy-burn/

No legionary news but the stuff for Cult and beasties is cool

Cult I think might be scarier now

[thin ibex]

I just realized, we don't have a imperial fists chapter master to rally their personality around

Which now that I've thought about it, it's kinda weird

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

same with salamanders

[thin ibex]

I think we know more about the white scars chapter master, who is like crippled to the point of mostly directing his chapter remotely iirc

Yeah

That's odd

[soft willow]

Fists have one.

He's a footnote.

[jaunty dawn]

that's what we mean haha

[thin ibex]

I know Dante, Logan, and Calgar are the big 3 but the others feel like they should have one

That has some impact

[jaunty dawn]

and azrael or whatever

some dark angel name

gabriel seth is a thing, though idk if he's still in range

[thin ibex]

Azrael is, as far as I know with how the fiction presents, not a part of the big 3 because of how aloof and separate he keeps himself

[jaunty dawn]

but yeah there's way more successor chapter masters around than first founding

[thin ibex]

Despite being a major figure

[soft willow]

I guess Lysander was offered the job and refused?

[jaunty dawn]

I think calgar has kinda dissapeared into a gulliman shaped hole

[soft willow]

He's kinda the fist character we have the most info on.

[jaunty dawn]

dante's really the only one who's super important

[thin ibex]

I imagine Calgar, Logan, and Dante occupy their space because their chapters manage expansive interstellar sub empires. Though I hadn't read much about the blood angels territory perse

I mostly refer to them as the big three or the heroes of the Imperium because that was the label they got for some time

[soft willow]

Relevant SM2 spoiler:|| Calgar shows up doing secret things for RG||

[jaunty dawn]

dante now manages the whole imperium nihilus

swolves don't really have a lot though

[thin ibex]

Yeah Logan had a death wish for a bit then changed his mind

Let the primaris in

And has since not had any major narrative development

The most recent space wolves thing, I think, was Ragnar lopping Ghaz's head off and then both getting upgrades

[jaunty dawn]

first tester for an ash waste base

gonna try out some other things but any thoughts on this one?

[wintry mist]

there have been previous IF chapter masters in the past that were big but yea none currently

Maximus Thane my GOAT

[rocky shale]

Astrogranite and dry brushing works pretty well if you want like fine rubble

[jaunty dawn]

that's what this is haha

[rocky shale]

Oh, yours looks more fine then mine

Do you do a wash before dry brushing?

I usually do astrogranite, nuln oil, light Grey dry brush

[jaunty dawn]

oh mine might be the other one actually

cause there's two of each colour

idk

[pastel rampart]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPQSNpVIi1o So, I think like how Duncan does the bases, some grey and tan would help with a general contrasting color.

But that might depend on how "ash" you want the base.

[jaunty dawn]

mm

I want it Super Ash

but yeah I should rewatch that vid

I also want it to be somewhat close in tone to the white armour because it's lowkey meant to be at least approaching camouflage

not very experienced with basing

[pastel rampart]

Yeah, fair.

I think it would look good with those dark grey rocks he has on there and just a touch of that bone-ish color, but with the off-white brushed on top. Like it's layers and layers of new ash on top of old.

[jaunty dawn]

ooh yeah

I will try that

[pastel rampart]

Plus you can get some of that bone color around the feet and ankles if you have a pigment that matches. Make'em look a bit dirty, y'know?

[jaunty dawn]

yeah definitely

[pastel rampart]

...heck, you could just find a pigment and not even have to repaint the base, hah.

[jaunty dawn]

I did order some pigment but it never came in stocccck

[pastel rampart]

You can always make your own!

[jaunty dawn]

gonna try go to an lfg so I can actually see what im buying lol

yeah true!

[pastel rampart]

Pastel sticks ground up super fine is all you need.

[jaunty dawn]

honestly using literal ash is probably a decent option

[pastel rampart]

That's the hardcore option, though I wonder how well it'd actually like...seal on top of it.

And uh, the smell, if any.

[jaunty dawn]

mm

I could use...incense ash

hehe

but yeah I think also just a bit more height variation in the base would make it a lot more interesting

[pastel rampart]

Yeah.

You don't have to make every base elevated of course, and I think having some "flat" bases really helps with variety. And obviously if you're doing like 20-man squads at a time just like, fuck it getting basic bitch shit on here.

[jaunty dawn]

I think 20 guys is gonna be the ceiling haha

but yeah

I think if I can figure this out I'll have a few models pretty much finished, which should help restore my morale for the project

[pastel rampart]

Oh I'm thinking like whole armies here, which is something I kinda specialize in since I cut my teeth with tyranids as my first army.

[jaunty dawn]

mm more in general

yeah

[pastel rampart]

But yeah I think it's a solid start and it wouldn't take much at all since you're already like 90% done.

[jaunty dawn]

thank you :)

appreciate that, and the advice!

[pastel rampart]

👍

[upper canopy]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/592650850686730242/1283531401819459666/c50b8d7855c94015620ffe55c32f7724a21b0ec791415caa7686af8f7ec53b94_1.mp4?ex=66e35545&is=66e203c5&hm=3ecf0397fa577632ede894c00d7c16e89b709a91ff8872fd9a1688ccc641eb07&

[mild glen]

Hey, quick question for the hivemind: what are y'all's solutions for transporting armies?
For reference, my largest model is a Riptide, but also, man, four Devilfish chassises make a big footprint.

[pastel rampart]

Magnets.

https://www.amazon.com/Collectibles-Miniature-Figurines-Miniatures-Minifigure/dp/B0CLPHNXJT/ There's a bunch of cases like this out there, some more expensive and larger than others, but any sort of carrying case with removable metal shelves work great.

Although for Devilfishes I might actually recommend foam inside cardboard boxes if only so that the entire case isn't taken up by those things. They're big.

[mild glen]

I have, like, the little free battle honours thing that I can fit all my infantry inside without much issue, but the crisis suits and the devilfish and the pirahnas and all the drones...

[pastel rampart]

Yeah, Tau got a bunch of weirdly-sized stuff and they're one of those armies that doesn't quite have a one-size-fits-all solution. Unless you make it yourself, anyway.

[mild glen]

This is the closest I've come to regretting picking T'au.

[thin ibex]

Right now I just don't fully glue together the larger tau models

So that they can be stored in pieces

Like ghost keel can be left split at the torso for example

List challenge for you all. Hypothetical newby player wants to play SoS. Even knowing the Detachment for them isn't great, how would you list build to support their dream

[mild glen]

That one, specifically, isn't currently actionable

[thin ibex]

I figure in their case it'd be more about collecting than playing anyway, so "functional" would be a finish line

Rather than viable

I ended up here

Though on second thought maybe 4 squads of 5 instead of 2 of 10

Maybe a dread or two would give them some needed punch

[past sphinx]

i could see this working in 1k

maybe not well with the t4 but working

[thin ibex]

I imagine I'd have more success gifting like whichever squads they think look coolest out of the SoS and SoB with no goal of army building

An SoS kill team would be cool

Oo maybe a boarding action

[desert jay]

TBF, there's way more successor chapters

So proportionally there's more first founding masters

[arctic lynx]

I use the GW carrying case for infantry (it destroys my Skitarii antenna), Daiso/Toyogo hand carry boxes with foam linings and blue tack for my larger minis (Cawl, Sydonians, and Castellans, this destroys the antenna and fiddly bits when used too often) and a seperate box for my Knight.
If it's one of the GW carrying cases, I also cut out every other foam zig-zag on half of it to make space for the bigger minis.

[arctic lynx]

cries in Mechanicus minis and very odd sizings on everything

[cinder wraith]

i got a taste for necromunda blood

(the campaign im in is going good)

[ebon forge]

Does anyone have that old Warhammer meme of a Astartes singing "don't stop me now" while his Vox is open for the people on the ship ?

[jaunty dawn]

lowkey Id tell them to play heresy haha

[jaunty dawn]

but to actually engage with the question

boarding patrol

already involves 6.2 of the same kit

the detachment rules seem fairly decent though

[pastel rampart]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzOV4MygE7k Was it this one you're thinking of?

[pastel rampart]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXPXwtrbUAAOO2O?format=jpg&name=large

[thin ibex]

Do baneblades see any comp play for guard?

[thin ibex]

Space marine 2 inspired Cadian list

[spice flicker]

I was talking with a friend about the space marine 2 game and we came to an agreement. If GW ever commissions a soulslike game involving space marines have it be part of the siege of terra.

[thin ibex]

My brother wants a grey knight game like space marine 2 lol

I think I'd like to see vignette single missions set in the hands of other chapter operations

[spice flicker]

I wouldn't mind an Imperial fist focused game.

[granite basin]

I think we could do with a Custodian centric game tbh

Easier to give you the power of protagonist lol

[spice flicker]

Custodian soulslike during the siege of terra

If they want to do another fps like they did with deathwing, go with guard during the fall of cadia.

[jaunty dawn]

it feels like imperial fists are super important in every explored era except the 41st millenium

like heresy they're a standout, war of the beast is practically about them specifically, they show up in the age of apostasy...

[spice flicker]

Pre-M39 the Imperial fists are the standout chapter, M39 and afterwards it seems like its nothing but Ultramarines except for a for Lore blurbs or minor books here or there.

[thin ibex]

I stand by the idea that the imperial fists is a better representation of the "standard" space marine

They're just yellow and not blue, so the UM work way better for marketing

[still warren]

What about a dungeon keeper esque game but you're a dark eldar Homunculus

[thin ibex]

Man it's still bothering me now, that we don't have an imperial fists chapter master or their wargear

It feels like we should obviously have one, even if they aren't super prominent

[floral herald]

It’s cause they keep dying lol

[thin ibex]

So hellbrecht uses a sword, Calgar has fists and is in fancy Aggressor armor, Dante has a melta pistol and axe with a jump pack, Logan has an axe and storm bolter and is in Terminator armor

Pedro has a fist and storm bolter iirc

I feel like Mr Imperial Fist would be in Terminator armor

Or maybe Gravis these days

[unreal cosmos]

I assumed Tor Garadon was the chapter master for a while

[floral herald]

The chapter master is Vladimir Pugh, KIA, wait it’s Vorn Hagan, KIA, wait it’s Gregor Dessian

[spice flicker]

Same

[thin ibex]

really missing hte opportunity to have a character weilding a relic powerfist called The Imperial Fist

[spice flicker]

Honestly with how the IF already have a gravis hero I agree with the Terminator hero idea. The IF were known for being set in their ways iirc and werent they opposed to the codex astartes and breaking up of the legion before the Iron Cage incident? We haven't had a Terminator hero come out since they got a refresh no?

[thin ibex]

make the imperial fists chapter master the only hero with a str 12 melee attack

honestly, probably not though, mechanically no infantry hits at str 12 iirc, and i think only a firestorm detachment gets you to str 11

[spice flicker]

I also feel like the raven guard chapter master should be some kind of phobos with the abilities of the phobos captain/lieutenant/librarian mixed together. Stealth (or lone operative)+better sniper rifle+redeploy phobos units.

[thin ibex]

shrikes not the chapter master is he?

[spice flicker]

I forgot he existed

And can't remember if he is chapter master or not.

[floral herald]

I think a heavy weapons character would be fun for the IFs

[marsh haven]

Honestly i’m surprised that Imperial Fists aren’t more prominent in Necromunda expansions

Like you’d think they’d do like a Novitiate/Scout Marine rite of passage in the underhive

[thin ibex]

oh true

a chapter master with like a relic heavy bolter would be sick

[spice flicker]

You know it'd be funny if with how often chapter masters for the IF get killed, have the release just be a chapter master in a dreadnought.

[marsh haven]

Shrike got promoted to chapter master after Shadowsun killed the last one

[spice flicker]

"We thought we lost another chapter master but he survived long enough for us to throw him in a dreadnought to continue leading us."

[solemn gull]

I hope not

Theres a lot of in lore references but the more mainline 40k you bring into necromunda the less necromunda it is

[marsh haven]

Necromunda is canonically an IF recruiting world so technically a lot of gang juves are potential “aspirants”

[solemn gull]

Right but having a scout marine gang would suck

[marsh haven]

Honestly maybe like a single scout marine “recruiter” unit that randomly shows up

Looking for juves to bludgeon into unconsciousness

And haul back to the spire

[solemn gull]

I don’t think scouts do the recruiting but there are actually rules for your really good gangers getting press ganged into the guard and wiped from your list

[marsh haven]

Well more like a Scout Captain probably

[thin ibex]

i have to imagine gangers have something of an innate sense for who the IF are down there, and universally don't fuck with them

[solemn gull]

Necromunda is supposed to be about the weird outcasts and niches. I think having a space marine captain show up would be very out of place.

[thin ibex]

i kind of agree, though we know the IF ARE down there

they're just not participants in ganger warfare

[marsh haven]

Yeah they commonly recruit from the “criminal element” on their recruitment worlds

[thin ibex]

effectively they take who they want and people don't fuck with them

though im sure from time to time younger gangers make the mistake

[marsh haven]

And given typical space marine recruitment tactics that involves testing out how good a fighter a recruit is before they actually get selected

So they’re probably observing the gang warfare to some extent

Either in disguise, through agents, or via servoskull video feed

[floral herald]

I think mechanically the tricky part of including them is that munda is a campaign game and the Fists don’t stick around

I could see them as a mission event 3rd partying the fight though

[runic swallow]

Just one space marine in that setting would be a real threat

[thin ibex]

iirc the fists also dont mind at all making a mess of things to acquire the people they want

[marsh haven]

Yeah they usually just haul off randos and if they survive and pass the tests their family gets a note informing them that their kid’s become an astartes

[runic swallow]

“Hello Juve of this gang I forget the name of, you are coming with me whether you want to or not”

[past sphinx]

a single space marine wipes the floor with any gang that you can put on the table

that being said we do have one as a hired gun

[runic swallow]

Objective: Survive

[solemn gull]

Yeah the BA

[past sphinx]

though their probably a blood angel gone mostly mad

[thin ibex]

hired guns, like our MC from hired gun, are outliers right?

[solemn gull]

I just don’t think space marines should be in munda because their guns don’t jam, they don’t miss, etc

[runic swallow]

Yeah they’re characters that you can hire for a usually high cost

And usually do very unique stuff

[solemn gull]

It’s like throwing adam smasher into a game

[marsh haven]

Y’know given the psychic sleeper agent shit that House Delaque gets up to, you could make an argument that a small number of Fists aren’t as orthodox as they appear

Like, entirely unintentional in Delaque’s part

[past sphinx]

Vandoth the fallen lacks his armor, his equipment and most of his mind and hes still terrifying

Vandoth the Fallen

[runic swallow]

He pretty far down the blood rage?

[past sphinx]

hes got the red thirst real bad

[wintry mist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShrqNRIku04

" world eaters should be able to be taken with a mono khorne army (and not just the other way around)"

[past sphinx]

notable the phobos pattern bolter, so he might be very very old

wait no

umbra

[floral herald]

I actually don’t think they’re impossibly strong for the game - munda games are hilariously overarmed by 40K standards

And have a bunch of their own freaky stuff

But they would be super hard enemies yea

[marsh haven]

Depends on how serious they are too

Some chapters will go to their recruitment worlds holding back

No armor no bolters type stuff

[wintry mist]

is munda even a recruitment world

[past sphinx]

if your anything less than serious on munda a homeless man with a multimelta is gonna turn you into soup

[wintry mist]

hive cities are usually not recruitment worlds for political reasons

[past sphinx]

munda is a

complex situation

[marsh haven]

Necromunda is canonically a recruitment world

[wintry mist]

ic

[runic swallow]

You get given an Uzi on your 5th birthday

[floral herald]

Yeah it’s a pretty important one for the sons of dorn

Primarily fists but the successors share recruitment resources

[wintry mist]

dont recruitment worlds pay no tithes

or is that for settled chapters

[solemn gull]

Necromunda is complicated

[floral herald]

Space marine administered planets don’t

[wintry mist]

ahhhh yea

settled chapters

[marsh haven]

The Imperial Fists habitually recruit from various Hive Worlds across the Imperium, including both Terra and Necromunda

Because the Underhives meet the criteria for “proving grounds”

[floral herald]

But the fists just show up and steal children in gangs who don’t run away from them

[wintry mist]

so real

[past sphinx]

its interesting that mundan culture doesnt get to slip into the fists, sure its the fists but it would be interesting to get a bit of that funk into the mainline

[marsh haven]

The Fists are nomadic too, they just keep a watchpost on the spire

[wintry mist]

I like how a lot of the first founding chapters are codex compliant but have just weird ways they break the codex a little

[runic swallow]

I do think a mission of “escape the field if you don’t want your highest statted juve to get removed from the game” would be a cool mission

[marsh haven]

The Fists have their own neurotic code of behavior independent of the Codex

Plus Dorn had like a protocol for reassembling the full legion

[past sphinx]

their gonna steal 30 creds from me!

[marsh haven]

Turns out becoming a Fist doesn’t cause you to forget how to rob people at gunpoint

[past sphinx]

we may and forgotten to read but you never forget how to run the jewels

[solemn gull]

Don’t they get like, super brainwashed and stuff

[past sphinx]

oh yeah

way deep in there

[solemn gull]

A bunch of knowledge stamped into their brain

[past sphinx]

its a genetic memory at this point

mundas come out the womb knowing how to run a 3 card monty

[marsh haven]

Yeah Fists have a rigorous hypno-indoctrination process among the founding chapters

[solemn gull]

Trueborn goliaths are probably their favourite recruiting targets

[soft willow]

Fists need more gold bling

[solemn gull]

They already look like marines

[marsh haven]

In part because they tend to recruit from gangers

[past sphinx]

sorry their abhumans

well

technically their a genetically designed slave race built to serve the corprate interests of the factory owners

then the revolution

and they became the factory owners

[marsh haven]

What’s funny is that the Fists still like go out of their way to inform the families of their victim-aspirants if their kid survived the enhancement and initiation

Like they canonically send a note

[past sphinx]

"yo that baby you had is sick as hell"

[marsh haven]

Some like heavily armed chapter serf heading down to the Underhive to deliver a very nice stationery note to some ganger parents to inform them that their little wilhelm is now a space marine

[thin ibex]

arent the imperial fists the official Terran garrison chapter?

like its continued to be their job to safeguard terra

[marsh haven]

yeah

it was a privilege granted to them in the wake of the heresy

so they keep a lot of astartes stationed there

but technically they're a nomadic chapter

The Phalanx just spends a lot of time in Terra's orbit

[soft willow]

Dad gave Dorn a space ship and by the Emperor they're going to use it.

[runic swallow]

You hear the horrifying sound of approaching heavily armored footfalls, gunshots, and screams approach your door- only for there to be a polite knock, a Space Marine scout hands over a finely written letter and wishes you a nice day

[marsh haven]

on real paper too

[marsh haven]

you think you recognize him as the lad who once set your neighbor's outhouse on fire but no, he's far too neatly dressed and well-behaved

[thin ibex]

i almost feel like its more similar to "your parents recognize him as an adult who terrorized the street when they were children"

[marsh haven]

marines typically recruit from adolescence to young adulthood

[thin ibex]

oh yeah what im commenting on is how long lived the marines are

as to not visit against within your own lifetime

[marsh haven]

they can recruit older folks but the enhancement surgeries don't take as well

[thin ibex]

my implication wasnt recruiting old people

but that the marine who shows up wasnt recruited from your generation

[marsh haven]

Scout Marines are also typically the youngest marines in the chapter

[thin ibex]

or even your parents generation

itd be weird to have grown up with an arsonist and have that arsonist get recruited, and then show back up within your lifetime

especially in a short enough time to get recruited so soon after they were

[tepid stratus]

For firstborn yes but for primaries it gets complicated

Or space wolves for that matter

[thin ibex]

i think also youngest in the chapter doesn't necessarily mean young

and doesnt necessarily mean the process of become an sm scout was especially fast

[tepid stratus]

You spend quite a while as a neophyte before being assigned to a scout or equivalent introductory squad

[runic swallow]

And sometimes guys stay as scouts for a while, at least in old lore

[tepid stratus]

Black templars are the exception of mixing neophytes into combat squads with full marines

[runic swallow]

Basically like being the guy who’s been a corporal for 10 years and shows the new guys the ropes

[tepid stratus]

The ones that are really good at it stay to be scout sergeants and train the newbies

[runic swallow]

Did he do something to fuck up? Is he just viewed as more effective there? Who knows!

[runic swallow]

Ah yeah that’s what I was thinking of

[marsh haven]

Raven Guard also have higher numbers of veterans in scout armor

[thin ibex]

My thought is that it'd be weird to recognize a marine that visits or passing through as someone you know from your own life; rather if they're returning for a recruitment and they're from here, they'd be from a generation or two back

[marsh haven]

particularly Kayvaan Shrike, their Chapter Master

[runic swallow]

Are scouts and Reivers now somewhat equivalent?

[thin ibex]

Space wolves don't use scouts as the next step after recruitment; rather for space wolves, they are elite veterans

[tepid stratus]

Dark Strider from the Tau is like this. Dudes technically eligible to be a commander but he chooses not to get battlesuit training because he's such an effective pathfinder

[thin ibex]

rather, space wolves new recruits are given power armor and a chainssword and made to work out their aggression in their early years

[tepid stratus]

Bloodclaws, gotta love em

[runic swallow]

“We wanna promote you.”
“Nah, I don’t wanna do the 400 hours of training, I have targets to mark”

[marsh haven]

Space Wolves are all types of atypical

[spice flicker]

Also the easiest way to doing "oops all dreadnoughts" in 10th

[uneven ember]

Corporal Cuddy (Joe Abercrombie's The Heroes)
He's often been Sergeant but never for long

[tepid stratus]

With a handful of exceptions like salamanders who keep in touch with their families or ultramarines who are just heavily integrated in their system's daily life

[marsh haven]

that would be Iron Hands i believe

[runic swallow]

Ah, the “walking retirement home”

[thin ibex]

SW mechanically do oops all dreadnoughts better atm

as they have more dread options

[marsh haven]

ah

[spice flicker]

Iron hands don't have a dreadnought warlord option.

[thin ibex]

you can do bjorn and then like only dreads

[spice flicker]

Bjorn and his retirement party

[thin ibex]

massive collection of "back in my day"

[tepid stratus]

Not really. Primaries marines are usually sent directly into the unit types they'd perform best in with the exceptions of honoured roles like Stern guard or terminators

[thin ibex]

"we used to fight xenos in the snow. Up hill, both ways,"

[spice flicker]

Might actually have to give that idea try now

[runic swallow]

Oh, that is a well known Type of Guy in the military, bonus if they get busted down because of shit they did while celebrating their promotion.
There’s a whole think called the “E4 Mafia” referring to how Specialists and Corporals are usually the people who actually keep stuff moving

[thin ibex]

iirc phobos armor is used for full marines who also take on something more of a scout role, like eliminators

or infiltrators

but scouts are still a thing

[tepid stratus]

It's still wild that there are primaries marines objectively older than Bjorn. I can only imagine Bjorn sitting next to some redemptor trading stories about Russ

[thin ibex]

mkX armor has the benefit of being able to adjust to phobos pattern or gravis pattern

I somehow doubt redemptors alive now were actually involved with russ in the same way

bjorn actually having served in his wolf guard

while the redemptor, as i understand it, would have been in stasis on a distant planet

[runic swallow]

Is this because they were in stasis, or because they were “guys we just didn’t mention, he’s always been in the back row”

[tepid stratus]

The strain the redemptor puts on the occupant definitely means the likelihood of any first wave primaris that got interred still being alive is slim

[valid brook]

Well, E4 mafia can also refer to how those guys have all the best skates figured out, all the dumbest sea lawyer schemes, all the best gedunk

Perks and benefits

[uneven ember]

I've fluffed my Templar's recruits as "once you sign on, you are dead to all who knew you, succeed or fail"
Wrote a fluff vignette where an Initiate signs on after his home world gets raided by orks, winds up running into his childhood friend as an Initiate, and realizes he scares her just as much as the orks do

[runic swallow]

Oh this is because they know what they’re doing, which lines up with that

It’s all connected

[thin ibex]

I know there are contested claims to it, but I think that Bjorn is still the oldest living space marine. The weird thing to me is knowing that there are probably Custodes who are still alive from back then, not in dread armor

[tepid stratus]

In stasis. A lot of the first wave were recruited during the late heresy. Space marine 2 even mentions this with a couple of characters

[runic swallow]

Especially knowing what work you can make other people do

[marsh haven]

I think Bjorn is the oldest period, Dante is the oldest while still being sound of body

[thin ibex]

yeah, dante is the oldest non dread marine in the imperiu, bjorn has the crown for oldest in absolute terms

[runic swallow]

Isn’t there also that ex-Word Bearer theologian?

[tepid stratus]

Oldest in objective time yeah. Cut out the centuries in stasis and primaris are hardly older than the average scouts or devastators

[thin ibex]

i think logan was a scout when dante was still a chapter master

[marsh haven]

barring time dilation and warp shenanigans

[tepid stratus]

Or I guess subjective time would be more accurate

[uneven ember]

Well, you always need to work out objective/subjective time in 40K

[thin ibex]

you can prolyl fit more dreads in there if you went for vet dreads and more wulfen dreads

as they're a little cheaper

[uneven ember]

There's always a chance at any given moment that someone pops out of the Warp from M34 or whatever

[marsh haven]

Bjorn actually does spend most of his time in hibernation so its debatable how old he is subjectively too

[tepid stratus]

Objectively there's primaris who where on Calth during the betrayal. But in subjective years active Bjorns lapping them on the clock

[floral herald]

Infiltrators are more directly comparable I think

[thin ibex]

oh huh, doesn't ||Chairon in SM 2|| mention that hes one of those?

[tepid stratus]

I guess it comes down to how you count dread hibernation vs stasis

[marsh haven]

he was no spring chicken when he got put into the dreadnought but he's usually awake for only ~10 days per millennium

once every century

unless he gets deployed

[tepid stratus]

But yeah Bjorn served a decent amount of time before being interred so even excluding his time as a dread he's older than the average primaris in subjective time

[thin ibex]

they do like a story telling session with him every like century or something

where they let him reminisce in front of the packs at the fang

and they wake him up when important shit goes down

he and i think it was erik morkai had a 2 on 1 against a mostly manifested magnus that one time

[tepid stratus]

Yup, ||he mentions being a kid when the word bearers killed everyone he knew and loved on Calth||

[spice flicker]

The day Bjorn moves to legends will be a sad day

[uneven ember]

"You know, I remember when they just called us Space Wolves because we were crazy motherfuckers who tore apart our enemies with our teeth before all our units had names like Wolves of the WolfWolf"

[marsh haven]

honestly i get the impression that he wants to die on some level

[floral herald]

Also FWIW Primaris recruits (as opposed to stasis bros) still have the same scout-reserve-battle promotion pipeline

[thin ibex]

i kinda like how in Wolf King, leman was like "Yeah back before a lot of this was kind of performative, but now I'm DEEP in the sauce"

the torchbearers who joined the Space Wolves had a lot of unlearning to do when logan said let em in

"Yeah whatever the mechanicus guy, or the custodes guy, or whoever else taught you about space marine warfare? Forget that shit. Also drink this mjod"

[solemn gull]

“Don’t be a square”

[marsh haven]

honestly i feel sorry for the Primaris who got deployed to the Charcharodons

those guys are creepy

cool but creepy

[thin ibex]

"You there, scouts, get out of that armor, you haven't earned it. Put on the power armor."

what?
"You also dont get that sniper rifle, you can have this pistol and a chainsword"

Tyboros being one of the biggest space marines alive yet still stealthy AF is scary as heck

[tepid stratus]

God imagine being given standardized combat training only to be deployed the chapters who's gimmick is being dead silent while fighting

[uneven ember]

He's annoying. He's scary. He doesn't wear a shirt.

[thin ibex]

imagine a space marine bigger than a hallway sneaking up on you in the close confines of a space ship corridor

[marsh haven]

also eating people (but that's a lot of Blood Angels successors too)

[thin ibex]

arent they suspected raven guard sucesssors?

but ultimately unknown

[marsh haven]

Raven Guard but heavily implied to use chimerical Night Lords and possibly World Eaters geneseed

[tepid stratus]

And this is why most of the recruits the world eaters get are renegades from blood Angels successors

[marsh haven]

Honestly still probably less disturbing than what they were before Sanguinius joined up

[thin ibex]

does that one blood thirster/khorne still lay claim to the blood angels gene line? Iirc Khorne intervened to kill nids because he still wants em

[marsh haven]

The Revenant Legion were like, a whole 'nother type of crazy

[thin ibex]

stacked the nid skulls to the atmosphere just to let Dante know that khorne still wants that booty

[jaunty dawn]

with the stipulation that vanguard marines are a full 100 carapace'd marines

and scouts no longer count towards company limits at all

[floral herald]

That’s true yeah

[tepid stratus]

Khorne likes to fuck with the black rage to make renegades confuse Angron with sanguinius

[floral herald]

Company limits were always sort of made up but now they’re SUPER made up

[marsh haven]

like Khornate marines are typically over the top manic but the Revenant Legion was usually described as being like inhumanly ghoulish and morbid

[thin ibex]

"They're interns, not full employees"

[marsh haven]

barely anthropocentric at all in their behavior

[spice flicker]

Imagine chaos knights infected with the same delusional virus as the Flesh Eater Courts.

[uneven ember]

Suspected, yeah
Also some can speculation that they're loyalist Night Lord successors
But I feel like people are a bit quick to jump straight to "traitor geneseed" as a go-to twist instead of running with "it's been ten thousand years people lose track of shit"

...except Silver Skulls because that level of "not even trying" is very funny to me

[marsh haven]

There's some lines where a Raven Guard marine refers to them as "mongrels" i believe

[thin ibex]

Iirc the biggest indicator is that they use raven guard rank structure

And that they might have lineage to an exiled raven guard captain

[spice flicker]

Minotaurs are suspected iron warriors descendants no?

[marsh haven]

like the black eyes are a raven guard gene flaw but the shark's teeth are something new

[thin ibex]

I wonder if Wolspears and Carcharadons would get along in a "We have never spoken to each other. We consider the other the best friend we ever had'

[bright dove]

We talking when Necrons save planets for whatever reason, and that Trazyn likes to steal statues of? 😛

[tepid stratus]

What do you mean? The Sons of the Phoenix are totally sons of Dorn with their flamboyant charm, flashy fighting style and love of bright colours and fancy swords! I mean really, same white hair and everything!

[marsh haven]

Doesn't Trazyn have like a perfect clone of uncorrupted Fulgrim somewhere that Bile sold to him?

[thin ibex]

Wasn't Dorn one of the most slept on primarch duelists?

[tepid stratus]

Actually I'm hindsight white hair and love of melee probably does make Imperial fists the best cover up for their origins given how the actual IF successors turned out

[thin ibex]

Iirc also one of the few primarchs who used a chainsword

[tepid stratus]

Yes

[tepid stratus]

And yes

[marsh haven]

wonder if that'll ever come back or if its been lost in the sea of content

[uneven ember]

I'm talking about how the Skulls' color scheme and symbol is just "pre-Heresy Iron Warrior"

My lord, we have gone through much to escape the service of Peturabo. We have reached the ranks of the Emperor's faithful but none of our graphic designers have survived the journey.

[tepid stratus]

Mainly because he was defensive as all hell so tying down another strong combatant was a worthy strat

He only ever lost a duel once iirc

And it was to Valdor

[bright dove]

That makes this from Infinite and the Divine even better.

‘Silver Skulls Chapter defeats the ork invasion,’ Trazyn said with clear relish. ‘There used to be a statue in the square, thirty khet high. They used to light candles and sing hymns to it. A few centuries ago the Inquisition got wind of it and did a little cleaning up. Removed it for “renovation” where it was never seen again.’

'You stole it, did you not?'

‘Well, of course. And I hardly think it counts as stealing if it’s my likeness. It’s my statue, after all.’

Orikan snorted. ‘Worshipping a necron. Poor idiots. I suppose they have a head start on the rest of the galaxy. The Awakening is nearly imminent.’```

[tepid stratus]

But still, the inverted pre heresy colour scheme and fucking Phoenix chapter iconography is the least subtle shit possible

[marsh haven]

a part of me thinks its kinda funny that most of the Primarchs in their youth were warlords or monarchs or heroic figures of some persuasion and Fulgrim's big coming-of-age story was climbing the corporate ladder

[tepid stratus]

Man grew up on a fucking factory planet and still managed to turn out fabulous

[marsh haven]

he literally grindset his way to the boardroom because he thought the interior decoration was too drab and wanted to change it

[tepid stratus]

Literally "this place wouldn't look like shit if the workers actually had the free time to be cultured"

[uneven ember]

CAWL: "no idea what you mean. That's prime Dorn geneseed guaranteed or my name isn't Bel Ignatius Sarius."

[marsh haven]

god i wish Clone Fulgrim shows up again and he's like, returning to his genetic roots of being a working class hero

[spice flicker]

To daemon primarch of prideful depravity and excess vs the return paragon of humility and the average citizen

[marsh haven]

now that Real Fulgrim is lost in the sauce of daemonussy

[spice flicker]

The only returned primarch to navigate and exploit the vast bureaucracy of the Administratum better than Robute.

[tepid stratus]

My head cannon is he gets forge breaker and is the IH primarch option but I fear he'll just be another one and done lore bit that GW doesn't want to have to worry about having major impact

[marsh haven]

arguably yeah he was one of the more administration oriented priamarchs

Sanguinius probably would have been too had he not been such a beastly natural fighter

angel boy united Baal largely nonviolently

[spice flicker]

The great crusade was nothing more than thr equivalent of a business Executive going on a golf tour to get away from the company for fulgrim

[bright dove]

And then he got That Damn Sword.

[uneven ember]

Gonna say again
I love how most of the Traitor Primarchs are like "he was the best of men, but his tragic flaws and the festering rot at the heart of the Imperium turned him against the Imperium and, from there, to the very heart of damnation, becoming all he had once loathed"
& then you have "Fulgrim found a magic sword but it was evil"

[marsh haven]

I mean Perturabo, Curze, and Mortarion always were antisocial pukes

[bright dove]

Petty Perty was always going to break eventually.

[tepid stratus]

Yeah instead of realizing the flaws of the imperium he got an addiction allegory instead

[marsh haven]

Mortarion literally and figuratively festered in his grudge against Big E for killstealing

[spice flicker]

Magnus screwed up and betrayed his own legion so they said screw it and went traitor in defiance.

[spice flicker]

Laer sword, not even once.

[bright dove]

Horus also had to get a magic blade intervention.

[uneven ember]

Yeah fair "the Night Lords turned evil" in particular probably should have been the least surprising twist in the Heresy

[spice flicker]

This is your brain on laer swords

[marsh haven]

Perturabo is at his best when he's siloed off and allowed to engage in his hyperfixations without interference or competition

He probably should have been relegated to civil engineering instead of warfare

because he really wants to build a Plato's Republic city and throws destructive tantrums when he's not allowed to

[bright dove]

To be fair, Perty is kinda looking for reasons to throw a tantrum at all times.

[uneven ember]

Also

"...OKAY, NO. I HAVE PUT UP WITH SANGUINIS, CORVUS CORAX, AND FERRUS MANUS, BUT THERE IS A FUCKING LIMIT. PUTTING MY FOOT DOWN HERE. YOU'RE KONRAD."
"fuck you dad i hate you i hate this family craaaawling iiiiiiin somebody's skiiiiiiiiiin"```

[marsh haven]

Perturabo's like, a guy you give a slush fund for research and engineering projects and occassionally check up on to make sure he didn't build a grey goo bomb as a side project

and then you shuffle him off to an isolated research station with a skeleton crew

which is frankly his ideal environment

sending validation at regular intervals to keep him from getting angry

maybe ask his sister how to keep from setting him off

[uneven ember]

I think he'd still sull about that tbh
"oh sure they say they appreciate me but they still shipped me off to the middle of nowhere because they all hate having me around a bloo bloo bloo"

[marsh haven]

honestly Perturabo kind of hates having to compete

he loves winning but doesn't want to have to work for it

so putting him in an environment where he's naturally top dog with nobody to bruise his ego is probably better than having him compete at leadership roles

[pastel rampart]

Eldar soulslike where you're playing a Phoenix Lord, giving you perfect justification on why you keep coming back after dying.

[marsh haven]

Curze OTOH is like, somebody you send to die on the frontlines against someone even worse than him because absolutely nothing can fix that poor broken boy

he cannot see the good in anybody

only degrees of bad

[uneven ember]

idk I feel like Pete mostly just hates being happy and loves being self-pitying and miserable

[marsh haven]

Pert has a pathological need for validation and a pathological inability to actually ask for it

so you need to constantly stroke his ego in order to extract any value from him

[uneven ember]

Even his sister's tips for not setting him off culminated in "I died finally telling him what I thought of him; worth it"

[marsh haven]

Exactly what the Emperor thought he would get from tailoring a primarch to have those traits isn't known, but presumably there was an original use case

he is a legitimately good engineer

[past sphinx]

is the temperment in built? i dont believe so

the "perfect memory and learning ability" is

[marsh haven]

the personalities and predilictions are at least partially bespoke

[past sphinx]

making Corvus while on a blue period "yeah im gonna give this guy so much depression"

[marsh haven]

fanatical loyalty is gene-edited into the Custodes somehow so its not out of the question that Big E tried to influence each primarch's personality traits while they were still in the test tubes

its heavily implied that Lorgar was originally meant to be the ideal morale officer, so he has an inborn need to subordinate himself to a higher power.

Russ has doglike trusting loyalty

[past sphinx]

there also the weirdness of primarch not really being biological entities

meat sacks of warp juice really

[pastel rampart]

The Primarchs, unlike Custodes, don't have that same bio-engineered loyalty. Which was either a flaw due to an unfinished process or something Emps put in there purposefully. So how much of their personalities was nature or nurture is really up in the air, but as we clearly know their worst qualities were not stamped out by Emps because He was the worst father figure in history.

[marsh haven]

yeah they don't have the loyalty, since Big E needed proxies capable of semi-independence

[past sphinx]

the eclisiarchy doesnt want you to know this but primarch are 40-60% goo

just goo

filled with magic

[marsh haven]

but they were each tailor made for particular roles

its heavily implied that Magnus was made to be plugged into the Golden Throne

and if Emps can permanently alter the personality traits of the custodes while they're in infancy then he could probably do the same to the primarchs while they were embryos

[paper bluff]

*purified 100% not chaos they swear power axe

[mild glen]

There was talk about other styles of Warhammer video games earlier and we could definitely do with Fire Warrior 2: this time you can get in a Crisis Suit

[tired cairn]

Armored Core: but it's Tau

[mild glen]

Absolutely

[upper bluff]

you know, why wasn't fire warrior about crisis suits?