Warhammer and Such

[thin ibex]

And can do so behind the front line

[balmy wave]

Just as you send your elite Astartes into the middle of danger

[thin ibex]

They're just not teleporting, they're effectively HALO jumping

[balmy wave]

Both groups are veterans of their armies and masters of their doctrine of warfare

[jaunty dawn]

i mean like consider the narrative of a spec ops campaign

[balmy wave]

But yes, in terms of actual stuff that's pretty much the difference

[jaunty dawn]

crisis suits are not operating without support for very long

[balmy wave]

Termies teleport and can melee, crisis fly in and don't melee

(9th ed had some great stratagems for that)

[thin ibex]

Well, termies aren't exactly built for a sustained infiltration campaign either. Usually any extended operational period begins after the initial attack

[balmy wave]

I mean both of them are kinda like shock troops too - that's the intent for the Astartes generally iirc

[thin ibex]

In most cases either party is completing a high octane, objective specific assault with precision, speed, and violence

[balmy wave]

They're meant to be the Emperor's Sword, decapitating the foe in one swift slice

[jaunty dawn]

im agree that terminators are also unsuitable haah

[balmy wave]

And then there's a reason Crisis Suits used to have a stratagem to shoot a bunch of enemies near their drop zone right away, with a strat

[jaunty dawn]

you already convinced me

[balmy wave]

I don't quite recall what it did precisely but it slapped

[floral herald]

I actually don’t think crisis suits are thematically or mechanically TEQs

[jaunty dawn]

not really though yeah

[floral herald]

But they are on the wrong side of of the vehicle rubicon for KT imo

[bright dove]

Crisis Suits are their own niche, yeah.

[thin ibex]

Drop zone clear I think, it netted you rerolls iirc

[jaunty dawn]

theyre bigger, stealth suits are smaller

[floral herald]

I could see a crisis suit being a cool add on similar to a broodlord

[balmy wave]

No doubt

[jaunty dawn]

theoretically xv4 void breachers are the teq

[floral herald]

But I think a Csuits team would be a little heavy

[thin ibex]

Crisis suits weren't even vehicles until this edition

[jaunty dawn]

thats kinda immaterial

[thin ibex]

(Though they're totally vehicles)

[balmy wave]

Honestly, terminator team is very nearly too heavy for KT

[thin ibex]

Thematically I disagree though, they are very similar in their military hierarchies

[balmy wave]

That's a 5-model team at most

[thin ibex]

They're literally referred to as the Hero's Mantle

[balmy wave]

Crisis or Termies?

[thin ibex]

Crisis suits

An honor afforded veterans of distinction and capability

[balmy wave]

That's a good moniker for them, I'd not heard it before

[floral herald]

I agree, I was originally talking about if a KT3 might change the rules so that heavier or more unusual teams could work

[thin ibex]

They are given the best weapons and armor to fight the toughest battles for the greater good

[pulsar cairn]

Is KT kill team?

[floral herald]

I think in KT2 we basically can see what a termies team would look like and it’s 4 stodes

[paper bluff]

What factions have kill teams atm?

[balmy wave]

Yup

[pulsar cairn]

Ooh

[floral herald]

All of them but Tyranids and world eaters iirc

[balmy wave]

Weirdly 4 stodes seems like too many already

[jaunty dawn]

i dont think they really are equivalents just cause the tau lineup is different from space marines

[balmy wave]

Nids technically have GSC, lore-wise

[jaunty dawn]

which is a good thing haha

[floral herald]

To be clear 4 stodes is a bad team much of the time because they get killed on APL and bleed out on objectives

[balmy wave]

But a genestealer KT would be fitting

[jaunty dawn]

just like theres no teq in eldar

[thin ibex]

They're not 1 to 1 mechanically, but thematically they fill a similar role to terminators and have similar weight of honor and regard within their own organizations

[floral herald]

I’m counting them separately - GSC have 2 kill teams

[balmy wave]

Right they only have 3 AP

[jaunty dawn]

i dont think so because crisis suits are less of an honour than terminator suits

[balmy wave]

Should honestly have 4 and be able to double certain actions

[balmy wave]

Actually not really

[thin ibex]

Usually people bring 2 stodes and like 4 sos or something right?

[jaunty dawn]

like its notable if a chapter is able to field even 100 line terminators at once

[balmy wave]

Crisis Suits are the topmost elite of the T'au

[jaunty dawn]

terminators are closer to the crisis bodyguard level

[balmy wave]

Very much equivalent to termies

[jaunty dawn]

but they dont get wholly different suits

[floral herald]

Yeah the usual for a lot of teams is 2 stodes and 5 SoS

Which is a top 3 strongest compendium team

[jaunty dawn]

like crisis suits are kinda like. fighter jets. you need to be an officer to fly one

[balmy wave]

Every Fire Caste's dream is to become a crisis pilot

[jaunty dawn]

like im not saying crisis arent elite and that its not an honor

[balmy wave]

I think it is the equivalent

[thin ibex]

I think in practical terms sure, but within their own hierarchies, crisis suits are generally very similar in prestige to a Terminator. That there are less terminators in a single chapter is a numbers game

[jaunty dawn]

but the tau and space marines just fundamentaly dont work the same

[balmy wave]

As armies sure

But in terms of prestige I think they're incredibly close

[jaunty dawn]

i think if you took the imperial army as a whole crisis are the space marine equivalent

[thin ibex]

Ironically I think there are more terminators in the galaxy than crisis suits if it came down to raw count

[balmy wave]

Almost certainly

[jaunty dawn]

and space marines are treated as nobility

[balmy wave]

They're honoured immensely yeah

[jaunty dawn]

like terminators are all centuries old

[balmy wave]

But the gap between an Astartes and a human is much more vast than the gap between an Intercessor and a Terminator, for example

The gap between a Fire Warrior and a Crisis Pilot is much more in line with the latter than the former

[jaunty dawn]

i guess

i mean testing a riptide is a greater honor than a crisis suit

[thin ibex]

The point I'm making is that within a given chapters hierarchy, a Terminator stands at the pinnacle of what a marine can achieve, barring a higher rank like lieutenant or captain.

In the Fire Caste hierarchy, attaining the Hero's mantle is the pinnacle of a fire warriors career, barring further promotion to commander or being bonded to the existing commander

[balmy wave]

That's a pretty good way of describing it

[jaunty dawn]

or a subcommander

i just dont think you can make like, tier based equivalencies like that because they dont have the same tiers

[balmy wave]

Many more Astartes will have the opportunity to become a Terminator than an officer, just as many more Fire Warriors will have the opportunity to become a Crisis Pilot than a Commander or even a Fireblade

[jaunty dawn]

like I think theres overlap in their ranking I guess

but I think it simplifies both to compare them directly

[cinder wraith]

i made a sign up doc for my local necromunda scene for a campaign i want to run

[balmy wave]

I actually reckon it's a much closer equivalency than one might initally think

[thin ibex]

I'm any event I fell as though terminators are a bad fit for KT personally

[cinder wraith]

tldr its a necromunda system based game on a different planet where a psychic beacon was activated to lure tyranids there and most citizens of the planet made escape but its only the rich ones. however there is a last ship in a different city so the gangers fight eachother to get a vehicle and mad max their way onto the ship

[thin ibex]

Feel*

And also feel like if terminators are fair game, so are crisis suits

And obliterators

[balmy wave]

Not oblits, honestly

But aggressors and other Gravis Astartes defo

Oblits are bigger than stodes

Tbh if you wanted a more elite loyalist Astartes team then Gravis marines are the way to go

[floral herald]

That’s reasonable yeah

[jaunty dawn]

i like the single gravis guy you get in justian

[floral herald]

There’s some fundamental asymmetry with space marines and everyone else since by the time a neophyte makes tactical a fire warrior has probably retired

But aside from that I agree

[balmy wave]

In terms of absolute time sure

[jaunty dawn]

i think its fair to make the comparison not chapter to cadre but cadre to imperial army when the cadre represents the entire tau army

[balmy wave]

But in terms of proportion of service time I reckon it's a lot closer

The Fire Caste as a whole is much more like the Adeptus Astartes than they are the Astra Militarum because there are fewer tiers and fewer specialists

[jaunty dawn]

like if you take fire warrior to even neophyte, the comparison is that the basic unit of the cadre is already the equivalent of an unreachable elite to a guardsman

[balmy wave]

And they rely on skills and wargear more than numbers and firepower

[jaunty dawn]

which I would say fire warriors are generally better trained and far better equipped than a guardsman but to not to that degree

[balmy wave]

I'd say the average Fire Warrior is on par with the Kasrkin in terms of absolute values

But I'm more talking equivalents

[paper bluff]

Well law of large numbers

[balmy wave]

The roles they play for their respective factions

[paper bluff]

There is like .0001 tau fire warrior to 1 guardsman and that might be generous to the tau

[jaunty dawn]

even in the gc era where space marines were far less elite the auxiliary were the workhorse

[floral herald]

I think kasrkin may be ahead in certain respects but yeah that sounds about right

[jaunty dawn]

but honestly I think Ive heard your arguments and I just dont agree

which is fine

[paper bluff]

It might be 3 to 1 with every 3 astartes there is 1 tau fire warrior

[balmy wave]

Definitely overestimate T'au numbers

[balmy wave]

Maybe even 4 to 1

[floral herald]

There’s more than 300k fire warriors for sure

Oh maybe 600k post primaris

[balmy wave]

Again, the T'au are like a couple dozen systems of planets?

[paper bluff]

Like 7 systems

[floral herald]

The US has 485k soldiers

[balmy wave]

Not every system is entirely habitable either?

[balmy wave]

7 septs, each of which has a few systems to it

[floral herald]

I certainly wouldn’t buy the Tau having a smaller army than Russia

[balmy wave]

There are more septs actually, just 7 playable ones

Also that's a good point Cyan

[floral herald]

IIRC (maybe out of date) there’s 100-200 planets in the Tau Empire

[tired cairn]

I see we should be multiplying numbers by 10 again lol

[balmy wave]

The Fire Caste are also more than 25% of the T'au population

[floral herald]

No im just saying that there’s almost certainly not 3x the space marines than there are fire warriors

[tired cairn]

Or maybe 100

[balmy wave]

There might actually be 3 Fire Caste per Astartes all things considered

[floral herald]

Unless you count CSM and some very high end estimates for their numbers :p

[tired cairn]

Oh, I see

[floral herald]

40k and numbers don’t play well but my personal estimate is that there fire caste is probably not more than 15 billion members

[balmy wave]

Like I think the Fire Caste make up a good third of the T'au total population and every single adult is a soldier

There are probably not even a billion loyalist Astartes out there

[floral herald]

There’s about 2 million or less

[paper bluff]

Who has more numbers you think? The tau or eldar?

[balmy wave]

T'au

[floral herald]

Counting chaos space marines there may be as many as 5-6 million space marines

Eldar

I count Drukhari :p

[balmy wave]

Well

OK

Yeah I was considering just the Asuryani and Cegorachi

[floral herald]

Excluding them I think it’s closer

[thin ibex]

speaking to this actually, tau also have shorter life spans iirc, than a normal human; so barring long stints in cryo, this is totally a thing

[balmy wave]

If you count the Drukhari, it's absolutely Eldar

[floral herald]

But could well be Tau

[balmy wave]

But take away the commorites and it's for sure T'au

Craftworlds are big, sure, but I doubt there are close to a billion Eldar even on the biggest

And while I think there are some planets that have been resettled by Asuryani, T'au still outnumber them

[thin ibex]

isnt commoragh like, incredibly huge?

[balmy wave]

The Drukhari alone probably outnumber T'au

[thin ibex]

like its a single "city"

but

massive

[balmy wave]

I think the Exodites might even outnumber the T'au actually

[floral herald]

40k numbers are kind of nonsense but there’s apparently figures in the hundreds of billions for craftworld populations

[balmy wave]

Bullshit

[floral herald]

But also that makes the “dying race” stuff really funny

It’s based on “countless billions” on Lyanden dying in the big invasion

But that seems like an unusual goofy-high not goofy-low 40k number

[balmy wave]

Hold on I have a meme for this

[floral herald]

Though I am warm to the idea that there’s actually like a trillion CWE and they’re just coping with not ruling the whole galaxy to say they’re dying

[soft willow]

Declining birth rates doomers.

[balmy wave]

I think it's possible there are dozens of billions of Asuryani

But I think even a hundred billion is pushing it

[soft willow]

One might also interpret the billions dying as soulstones too and that can fudge the numbers quite a bit.

[balmy wave]

Oh

Good point

[floral herald]

Maybe they counted dead Tyranids

[balmy wave]

Craftworld iyanden does consider their dead

[tired cairn]

Like, hundreds of billions per craftworld?

[balmy wave]

They memento mori very well

[floral herald]

Yeah

[balmy wave]

Oh not a chance

[floral herald]

https://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=229504.0#:~:text=Iyanden is also said to,and 250 billion for Ulthwé.

[balmy wave]

Again, I think there being a hundred billion Asuryani in the galaxy, including any planetary colonisers, is a push

[floral herald]

I actually think this is an unusually cogent 40k numbers, which is to say, way way too big

[tired cairn]

Man, craftworlds must be hella cramped

[balmy wave]

Ulthwé is big don't get me wrong

But it's probably only around the size of our moon

A population like our modern Terra is what I'd have assumed

[tired cairn]

I guess you get all of the inside instead of just the surface

[thin ibex]

maybe the aeldari craftworlds count the spirit stones

as population

like the infinity circuit

for bonus pop

[balmy wave]

Again, if they do do that then sure those numbers make sense

[balmy wave]

Like Stellaris virtual pop, or zombies

[paper bluff]

I now imagine every craft world like the Kowloon walled city

[cinder wraith]

horrifying

[balmy wave]

But if there are more than 100,000,000,000 living Asuryani across the galaxy I'll eat my hat

[floral herald]

Reasonable

[jaunty dawn]

i think theres actually only one aeldari they just move very fast

[soft willow]

Just one harlequin making the most complicated joke about the Eldar possible for an audience that's got no fucking idea.

[thin ibex]

aeldari language has issues with temporal discussion

the pop count was lost in translation

as the answer was delivered with the idea of "there have ever been"

I do like the idea of aeldari considering those in the infinity circuit and spirit stones to be part of their population

[mental birch]

Drop zone clear

Reroll all hits and wounds

[jaunty dawn]

wonder how long it's going to take for people to realise the grav chute scions don't fly

[floral herald]

Probably not until the rules are out lol

People have been talking about the “flight season” so much

I wouldn’t be surprised if the grav chutes gave them more mobility though

[jaunty dawn]

yeah they might be able to little jumps and glides maybe

I think the main thing is gonna be some great forward deploy capability

but the cinematic is pretty clear about them only using it to descend; other than the beginning and the shaft they go down, they're all ground

and tbf we already have rules for grav chutes in kill team, though they may change

I would be pretty hyped if new imp guard codex has the foot scions essentially be the new unit though

[thin ibex]

oo

the image of like

moon jumping

low grav bounding

[jaunty dawn]

if the seasons terrain is very vertical they will get a lot of movement out of that

[upper canopy]

I will say

I'm not really a fan of this new trailer

[thin ibex]

the vespid didn't feel very characterful

comparative to the scions

the scions were cool

the vespids were targets

[upper canopy]

It's just kinda "Cool Imperium!!!!" which is the worst kind of trailer

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

even though they lost the engagement pretty decisively

it was like look how bravely they run to their deaths

[floral herald]

True lol

I thought it was ok but not my favorite

[thin ibex]

also we had "Ooh, sword guy, oo dual pistols, oo" for scions and for the vespids it was like "Ooo, a sniper."

[floral herald]

The imperium fellas did look cool

[floral herald]

They also had a neat grenade launcher but yeah

[upper canopy]

Also why even include the Tau

like we get it GW you hate the Tau

but they aren't in the fuckin' box

[jaunty dawn]

I missed both dual pistol ppl the first time so

[thin ibex]

honestly tho, rocket/nade vespid and sniper vespid are still excellent additions

[jaunty dawn]

ye

[thin ibex]

and if they carry over into 40k, it already makes the squad more interesting

effectively getting whati wish reivers got xD

[jaunty dawn]

I think they might with how extensive it is

[thin ibex]

If reivers had an assault grenade launcher with a str 9 shot, itd be so different for them

or a power weapon

[jaunty dawn]

power weapon on the sergeant doesn't really feel like a reveal to me tbf

[thin ibex]

well no, im just saying hte reivers deserve a special weapon or two xD

[jaunty dawn]

yeah for sure

[thin ibex]

I am however glad to see vespid getting some attention, in effectively a way i wanted like a year or more back now

[jaunty dawn]

I think having both existing auxiliaries essentially fully up to date is a really good foundation to explore new ones in the future

[thin ibex]

now if only vespid actually fit into the army on the table as far as rules and integration -_-

maybe they'll get a new rule as part of their data sheet all their own

[jaunty dawn]

I feel like kroot basically have 2x ability budget as a result of not getting the army rule yeah

I really need to figure out a kroot scheme

[thin ibex]

my unpainted kroot taunt me

im still thinking a blue skin baseline

maybe white quills

[jaunty dawn]

I need to take them out and put them up somewhere so they exist in my object permanence but I have no rooom

[thin ibex]

i also need to figure out how to tie in my sept scheme

with the bluekroot

which is a silver/purple/pink scheme

[upper canopy]

After how even-handed and cool the 10th Edition Trailer was this being a return to form of the "COOL IMPERIUM KILL ALL THE XENOS" cinematics is pretty disappointing tbh

[unreal cosmos]

Idk I think the way that Fire Warrior went out frames the scions as Baddies

Like they do cool stuff but they're introduced by shooting a cowering soldier in the face

[upper canopy]

I mean yeah that's where I thought it was going

[cosmic tulip]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/08/16/just-what-is-operation-hivestorm-find-out-in-this-thrilling-new-cinematic-trailer/

[upper canopy]

But then it's just "And then they kill the Vespids! So cool!!!!!!!!"

[cosmic tulip]

I hope the imperium loses lmao

Fucking fascists

The tau need a win lore wise

They haven’t really done much since Psychic Awakening

[unreal cosmos]

Guess it's a different reading

[cosmic tulip]

They did all die

So.. it depends?

Oh my god

My buddy: “tau also shoot people point blank in the face they’re just as bad”

[rocky shale]

If you like xenos you gotta get used to losing 24/7 because we never get lore wins

[cosmic tulip]

“How does it make the imperium the bad guys”

Buddy if you read the lore you’d know the Tau have rules of engagement for medics

[thin ibex]

The imperium DID lose in this encounter i think did they not, even if they were framed heroically

[cosmic tulip]

They try to treat enemy troops too

[cosmic tulip]

Yeah they did lose

But it felt more like heroic sacrifice propaganda

[thin ibex]

i did feel like the tag line fell flat

"the stakes got raised" how so?

Some dudes shot some dudes inside a hole

[rocky shale]

You spend a lot of time arguing with this one guy lol

[cosmic tulip]

He’s my closest friend lol

[cosmic tulip]

Big gun

Which looks like a big tau railgun

[thin ibex]

railgun vespid is kinda sick

[cosmic tulip]

But I will note

I’m kinda seeing a pattern with 40k and aos

While both kill team and AoS get the really creative model designs

[hard whale]

The dudes were shot at a higher elevation to last season's dudes

[cosmic tulip]

Only AoS is allowed to have meaningful advancements in narrative

[thin ibex]

is it "In 40k, imprium win, in AoS the stormcast frequently lose"

tbf, any time 40k tries to advance the narrative, everyone in the fandom loses their mind about the changes

because #theirfavoritemodel or #theirfavoriteunit is gone

or character

I honestly think the fandom is more resistant to setting narrative advancement than the company

[cosmic tulip]

Aos sets huge narrative advancements

[thin ibex]

but also vespid getting new guns is totally setting narrative advancement to me 😛

[cosmic tulip]

And the fandom loves it because they get new stuff

[cosmic tulip]

Tau auxiliaries are so cool

I’m happy we get Kroot and Vespid back

[rocky shale]

Let ynnead suplex slaanesh plz

[thin ibex]

with the kroot detachment and model release they're honestly pretty solidly back

i do wish we had heavier kroot customers

but ill live

i endured kroot getting nothing for years

[rocky shale]

Give me my fifth cronesword you cowards

[cosmic tulip]

Yesss

Give the eldar a win plz

And the mechanicus

Like holy shit the Admech are in rough straits

[rocky shale]

Hear me out

[thin ibex]

tbf, the whole indomitus crusade was a huge narrative thing; as was the return of the lion and the whole arks saga

where chaos kinda won despite the return of the lion

[rocky shale]

Fully formed ynnead
Ynnead suplxes slaanesh
Breaks Isha out of nurgle prison
Isha goes on a world tour collecting fragments of khaine to put him back together.
You know where a lot of those fragments are? Maiden worlds.
That's right, exodite time.
GW gets to sell dinosaurs to 40k players.
10x profits year-over-year

[thin ibex]

i was hoping with the main thing with angron and the spotlight he got was that i was hoping we were leaving the nurgle era

and going into the khorne era

where every 40k media has khorne enemies instead of nurgle for a bit

[hard whale]

zombies were ludicrously popular for a bit in the 2000s, and GW still hasn't got it out of their system

[desert jay]

Saw the idea of crisis suit KT, but here's my elite Tau KT pitch: Mix of XV15 and XV25 stealthsuits

Has the "half and half" structure, can pick two(?) XV25s or five XV15s for each half

[cosmic tulip]

You know what would be really fun?

A Gue’vesa and Water Caste hybrid team

With rules to convert enemy models over to your side

It could be a great contrast to the guard teams

[junior robin]

earth cast combat engineers could be fun as well.

[thin ibex]

i would love a modern stealthsuit KT, they're like... FOR that kind of op

[balmy wave]

Right, for Farsight Enclaves iirc?

And other septs had one that just re-rolled hits or smth

[floral herald]

I did like how the trailer felt very kill teamy

They just killed the fuck outta each other after TP2

[thin ibex]

yeah

only thing that wasnt as clear as the OG one was what their objective actually was

[solemn gull]

This sounds incredibly cool I wish there was more of a necromunda scene in my area

[cinder wraith]

necromunda is a soul crushing game

dark souls of warhammer 40k

[solemn gull]

It is a bloated pile of art

[thin ibex]

it feels like... something you can appreciate at a distance; then if you get into it you have to wade through a lot of bullshit to firmly appreciate it again

and then when you do, there's a very obvious wall between your appreciation now and prior

[cosmic tulip]

Is it just difficult to play?

[upper bluff]

Yeah I've heard a lot of things about Necromunda, but never soul crushing

[jaunty dawn]

it's uh

very much in the vein of an earlier phase of gw game design philosophy

for the best overall

[upper bluff]

Ok so just kinda hard to wrap your head around

Anyways looking through these Necromunda models, there are just a lot of freaks on Necromunda

[jaunty dawn]

sometimes the rules are kinda scattered

it's a lot better now after a few rounds of faq n such tbf

[floral herald]

I’m not sure if it counts as soul crushing but I think it is one of the most old-school XCOM like GW games

[south axle]

Necromunda is fun, if you get a good group

[floral herald]

EG “one of my models failed a panic check, accidentally shot his buddy and then his plasma gun overheated” sort of moments

[pastel rampart]

Necromunda, Mordheim, and Bloodbowl have a very "comedy of errors" playstyle where shit can go south in an ever-increasing cascade if the dice don't like you.

[floral herald]

Another premature post

[south axle]

So now we have the official name of the Elyscions

[desert jay]

I wonder if the new edition will have numbers

[jaunty dawn]

I hope so

[desert jay]

Instead of 🔺 🟥 🔴

[jaunty dawn]

its the time to do it

[thin ibex]

What was the utility of using the shapes instead of numbers from a design perspective?

Easier to approach when you had measuring tools that are also that shape?

[jaunty dawn]

uh

evidently, nothing

[thin ibex]

I thought it'd make sense if you had objects that came in the box that were that shape for measuring

[jaunty dawn]

my theory is they were gonna do something with it, stuff got printed, and then it was too late when they decided against it?

[thin ibex]

So that you could just like... say move 2 squares and the player is like

[jaunty dawn]

the measuring tool is marked for the different shapes but

[thin ibex]

Oh hey I have a square

If I just go as far a two of these

Etc

[pastel rampart]

It's to try and sell you a widget.

[desert jay]

Can you buy the widget seperately?

[jaunty dawn]

you can buy it with the tokens

kill team essentials pack

tokens, barricades, measuring stuff

[pastel rampart]

Doubtless there's 3rd party widgets you can buy/have printed/print yourself too.

[jaunty dawn]

it's a good pack tho tbh

[desert jay]

So it's one of the other random things you get in the box you're buying for the barricades

[jaunty dawn]

but it doesn't really sell the widget cause it's not like it's not just inches

its honestly just a complete mystery

part of the benefit of symbols is in multi-lingual printing but that doesn't really apply to numbers like that

[desert jay]

It's sorta-multi-lingual but the numbersymbols aren't useful without all the text alongside

[jaunty dawn]

its also a benefit if they expect you to use multiple measuring units, like infinity does with inch and cm, but they don't do that either. or if they wanted to support multiple scales, but that also didn't happen

plus they're used directly alongside regular roman numerals

like 3 circle

[desert jay]

That's arabic, not roman. But ye

As funny as III 🔴 would be

[jaunty dawn]

shit yeah

distracted

[desert jay]

BRB making a Punic war historical game that's printed using Roman numerals for flavor

[floral herald]

I think it makes some things clearer like how you can’t move less than 1”

But that’s about it

[desert jay]

Including the tokens so you gotta figure out if that's a XI or a IX while it's tossed onto the game field

(The revenge of 6 and 9)

[solemn gull]

ah bloodbowl, where my troll ate my star goblin runner and then the next turn slipped and broke his neck

[jaunty dawn]

it also does stuff like pentagon + square

it's bad

mainly for setup

[upper bluff]

I remember looking into kill team and for 1 second thought that the number of sides was the distance, like a square would be 4" and a triangle 3" but then nope

[jaunty dawn]

no that would've made sense

like circle could've been 2 cause it's like a coin

or 1 cause its 1 side I guess

[south axle]

GWs making sense?

[jaunty dawn]

it's just a extremely baffling thing they did nothing with

[pastel rampart]

Oh if it matched the number of sides I don't think it would've gotten half the bewildered comments it did because...yeah that makes sense and probably easier for some people to grok.

[cosmic tulip]

Yeah coming from 40k

Kill team is.. confusing as hell ngl

[hard whale]

I think the official excuse was that a tape measure is a bit unwieldy in close quarters, but a widget is only a little bit better

[jaunty dawn]

but the widget isn't at all reliant on the symbols

they even made a metal one for warcry 2e preorder

without any symbols or whatever

[proud wing]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/879817375598407691/1274078967015407626/8b57e9fc402f0d3838e9a24c0b9bc421.mp4?ex=66c0f200&is=66bfa080&hm=9a92e42d06c4e2b4b757f339eb42b98e75b213ddae823f14528ed7474882e523&

||i was fine until it got to the shot of getting the white paint on the brush||

[desert jay]

||I was fine until the waterslide transfer||

[bright dove]

Truly the most skillful of eye painting.

[desert jay]

That free space is very accurate

[uneven ember]

https://x.com/Rekkiem2/status/1824350479658221999

Orange Paints 🍊 (@Rekkiem2) on X

I just CANNOT get this out of my head. Help me before I commit

Twitter · Aug 16, 2024, 7:40 AM

[pastel rampart]

oh I'd do that in a heartbeat are you kiddin' me

I had that set as a kid and I even made a little diorama inside a cubby in the basement.

[floral herald]

Oh I like those

[solemn gull]

The people yearn for brikwars

[rocky shale]

Online rules is less believable than any other one on here

[floral herald]

It's not that rare these days

I think its more believeable than no more starstriders/gellarpox

[proud wing]

idk, the bottom center one is pretty absurd

[floral herald]

lmao

[tired cairn]

I like how it is "tyranids kill team rumors" and not an actual kill team

[floral herald]

Let’s be realistic ok

[desert jay]

Tyranids should have a monster KT, but it has to be something that fits through corridors and such

Canonically, that includes a Norn Emissary

[dense sedge]

this video is just so painful, I love it

[pale narwhal]

a singular big monster and a bunch of ripper swarms would be a very funny tyranids kill-team

[bright dove]

Surprise infiltrator carnifex. 😛

[dense sedge]

Looks like a battlebot

[plucky token]

wide tank

[raw vessel]

Rhino the long way

[finite compass]

"How to actually fit ten space marines into a Rhino"

[valid brook]

M.C. Escher lookin ass tank

[orchid venture]

accurate recreation of the second edition era tau colour scheme :V

[jaunty dawn]

hell yes

[dense idol]

hello everybody

i've been lurking in this thread for a little while and i have a question for the milieu:

personally, how much of your engagement with warhammer consists of playing any of the wargame rulesets with other people?

[orchid venture]

there’s a wargame?

[jaunty dawn]

not much cause i only play at home really. but I do play a ton of underworlds with my partner

hoping to play some boarding actions when my book arrives though. and more kill team in the new edition

if im getting the full 6 x 4 out id rather take the opportunity to play Open_Sketch's game Riposte nowadays

also want to try out spearhead with my partner for more wargame-y stuff

[pale narwhal]

I used to play a lot, and I’m slowly getting back into it but nowadays 90% of my engagement is the hobby side (building/painting models), lore, and the warhammer ttrpgs

[cinder wraith]

angron is finished!!

[quaint compass]

Hellooo boy~
Welcome! There he is!

[south axle]

Kinda wish that GWs could move away from this, at least for specialist games

[valid brook]

I still model and paint, but my most recent game of 40k was seventh edition and I last played regularly during fifth.

I’d like to f/w the upcoming edition of Kill Team, inshallah

[solemn gull]

A bimonthly day of non-stop necromunda

[floral herald]

Currently very little but that’s because I’m still assembling the little guys

While getting back into it

So I’ve just played kill team since it requires fewer little guys

[solemn gull]

I'm still trying to find a killteam that lets me use all my cool dudes

[mild glen]

Being as new to the tabletop side of the hobby as I am...
I Just finished a 1,000 point army and got into a gaming store's discord. So hopefully soon I'll be able to do some games, but the painting is fun enough that right now, it is the hobby for me.

[junior robin]

still pondering what traitor legion to use in HH and really tempting to go with the iron warriors army with $180 troop choices

[unreal cosmos]

Big fan of your work in general but this really knocks it out of the park

[paper bluff]

Atleast once a month I play the table top. Sometimes every sunday

[pastel rampart]

https://vxtwitter.com/chris_buxey/status/1824165959130886429

[south axle]

"I am a corpse starch popsicle"

Stingwings are very much more insectile in their update

[dense sedge]

the killzone feels a bit bland to me, just another ruined city

is this just going to be the killteam?

[south axle]

SHAPES ARE GONE! LONG LIVE NUMBERS!

[junior summit]

https://youtu.be/Lr4FSwSRuNU?si=jdfzW6xK5B-1Ho5-

vespid feature

[junior robin]

So with the vespids back, is it to early to say "codex: tau auxiliaries confirmed"? :v

[south axle]

As Kroot got a full detachment in the kinda recent Tau codex, I would think it is a bit early

[floral herald]

I think a codex xenos minoris would be more likely

As a sort of grab bag for non-imperium agents

Put Sslyth, hrud, kroot, loxotl, etc in one place where you can bring them on for various other armies

I could see support for “Tau Soup” with LoV out though

[tired cairn]

I see vespids have evolved to be orange, to better blend in with a tau battle force

[cosmic tulip]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/08/17/the-warhammer-preview-show-operation-hivestorm-descend-from-the-skies-into-the-next-great-leap-for-kill-team/

[tired cairn]

The little drone looks so serious

[floral herald]

No no its fine I just didn't expect them to be orange

This guy fuckin whips though

[floral herald]

THEY PUT INCH MEASUREMENTS ON!

I'm curious about some of these new tokens too

New orders maybe?

[pulsar cairn]

Hi cyan

[floral herald]

hi

[junior summit]

spray paint

[jaunty dawn]

ooooooooh

new drone!!!

I'm so mad that gw is doing 'uh all scions use grav chutes but these guys extra use grav chutes'

[floral herald]

With a combined 147 tokens between them, encompassing everything from order trackers and APL modifiers to Aquilon drop markers and Stingwing neutron grenade tokens, you’ll find keeping track of your operatives even easier than before.
Interesting rules tidbits

Are these guys gonna be able to deep strike?

[jaunty dawn]

like you now have seperate grav chute and grav chuteless models!!!! make them different!!!!!

stormtroopers used to have Other Skills

anyway I like knife lady

[cosmic tulip]

They seem to be.. unusually positive with vespid

[jaunty dawn]

ohhh stealth vespid

[cosmic tulip]

No mind control mentions in sight

[jaunty dawn]

one thing I realised about kill team is the accompanying fiction means it always viewpoint stuff

so imagine that'll have forced them to make a concrete decision when showing the strain leader's like, though processes and stuff

[upper canopy]

Someone is saying the helmet is a mind control device

[cosmic tulip]

Maybe it’s.. from a tau perspective?

[floral herald]

I like the new ladders and popped smoke tokens

[cosmic tulip]

sigh

[upper canopy]

but I got no source on that

[jaunty dawn]

I think this might also be why we don't have any tyranid or pure daemon kill teams

[upper canopy]

just someone saying it unprompted

[floral herald]

That's been speculated since like 2003 I think

[cosmic tulip]

That’s outdated canon from Xenology, which is acknowledged to be imperium propaganda

Xenology came out in 2003

[jaunty dawn]

that's been a rule hook since vespid were introduced

[floral herald]

It's from the 4e Tau codex

[upper canopy]

No they're reacting to current thing

[jaunty dawn]

it's just a hook and not a fact

[upper canopy]

and saying it

again, I don't know what's MAKING them say it

[jaunty dawn]

this is so dope

[upper canopy]

and I'm not getting this so I'll have no way of checking lol

[jaunty dawn]

I mean not even preview copies have gone out

[floral herald]

Fire Caste commanders soon discovered that Vespid made for excellent kill team operatives, matching predatory instincts with keen alien cunning, and the ability to operate for an unparalleled amount of time without resupply or assistance. Dedicated Shas’ui handlers connected to the Strain Leader’s communion helm by an MV44 Oversight Drone allow for complex strategies to be immediately relayed to the unit, leaving the job of executing their sabotage and assassination missions to the winged warriors in the field.
There's definitely a more negative viewpoint for this but its more "we have auxiliaries do the horrible dirty work so we don't have to" than mind control IMO

[jaunty dawn]

so if it's something in the product anyone claiming to know is lying

anyway the new kill team accessories sprue is so awesome

I love smoke grenades

and barbed wire

[upper canopy]

I mean Stealth Suits are there to do horrible dirty work

[pastel rampart]

Unless they have some secret bit of lore people have been ignoring and/or have an advanced copy then they don't know for certain, and are probably adhering to fanon.

[floral herald]

But also just speaking practically, your long-duration mission free acting agents do need to be politically reliable so its likely that the Tau have a pretty good relationship

[cosmic tulip]

It just seems like a fancier alien radio ngl

[upper canopy]

this is just horrible dirty work that requires them to fly

[jaunty dawn]

oh and mines????

I think this might be like

[cosmic tulip]

My buddy won’t stop talking about the mind control

[jaunty dawn]

a significant expansion to prebattle actions

[floral herald]

yeah

[cosmic tulip]

I need to actually learn kill team lol

[jaunty dawn]

just some grenades to glue on operatives?

[cosmic tulip]

My main experience was tau v guard and I blasted the guard fast

[floral herald]

There's been a focus recently on KTs which have annoying trap mechanics so I can see that as a way to test the waters for more prebattle

[cosmic tulip]

Second game was against necrons and I got bodied

[jaunty dawn]

maybe some kind of universal equipment so they don't have to reprint krak and frag for every team?

[upper canopy]

Lore Accurate Foodchain

[floral herald]

Like Scouts having "do 5x the prebattle" as their rule and the minelayer Hernikyn

Necrons are a really knowledge checky KT

[cosmic tulip]

(He also trash talked me the entire game lol)

And I feel like we both did stuff incorrectly ngl

[floral herald]

They're really complicated and have such a variety in operative power that they can force really weird mismatches

[jaunty dawn]

I think your friend just sucks tbh

[cosmic tulip]

Yeah maybe

I think I might get some tau bits

[jaunty dawn]

at least in this area

[cosmic tulip]

And make the scions Tau aligned

Just for laughs

[floral herald]

I have a really high KT win rate so far but everyone I've played with is real new (including me) and my Legionaries have a much more straightforward wincon than most teams

[cosmic tulip]

My main thing is kill team is a lot

[tired cairn]

In terms of optics, "oversight" isn't the best name for your communication drone. But maybe that's the imperial designation

[cosmic tulip]

I struggle with juggling all the unique rules

[cosmic tulip]

Tau use the term XV or have tau names for drones and battle suits

[floral herald]

In terms of described function at least it sounds like its basically a man in the chair type drone

[cosmic tulip]

It’s most definitely an imperial categorization

[floral herald]

I'm guessing it'll work as a commsman type operative

Spots enemies and grants APL

[jaunty dawn]

having a like handler is pretty standard specops practice

[floral herald]

Maybe they're marker tokens and they're pulling frag/krak out of the equipment list?

[jaunty dawn]

maybe less so in 40k but tau have access to telecomms

well I think the individual grenades are probably too small to be markers

[floral herald]

They're always weird looking in there because there's so many rules exceptions for them

[jaunty dawn]

so I think they're just sprue filler to customise your guys

so you can designate your frag guy etc

[floral herald]

Maybe yeah

[jaunty dawn]

just for fun and its not like they take up much space on the sprue so it's more value without really more cost on their part

[floral herald]

I guess the new ones are some kinds of Bigger Barricades, wire obstacles, mines and extra ammo?

I'm really curious how the extra ammo ones are gonna work

[jaunty dawn]

I think the ladder might be either equipment or a prebattle option too

[floral herald]

I'm excited for the ladder, especially with a verticality focused season

[jaunty dawn]

uh cause with the retracted/extended things and the fact that it looks like it's got a gas canister for powered extension

[floral herald]

I really felt the mobility mismatch having my Legionaries fight Voiddancers

[jaunty dawn]

I am so hyped about this set for real

I love little gadgets

like the old cities of death stuff??

this is that on a smaller scale and it's so cool

I like how they're improving on the original chalnath terrain by making storeys smaller but more of them

[floral herald]

https://www.reddit.com/r/killteam/comments/1eul8eu/next_edition_comes_with_solo_and_coop_mode/
interasting

[tired cairn]

I think you're explicitly mentioned the ladder as a pre-battle thing

[floral herald]

Hoping this isn't an afterthought because a coop horde mode sounds really fun

[jaunty dawn]

I Am sad that I bought a card pack I've yet to use and likely won't before the box is out but cest la vie

that sounds awesome holy shit

[cosmic tulip]

God YES

[tired cairn]

Oh hmmm, more like implies

In the current edition of Kill Team, each player has their own barricades that they deploy before the game begins, and Kill Team: Hivestorm ups the ante with a whole pack of new physical assets for your operatives. The classic barricades return alongside barbed wire obstacles, ladders, smoke grenades, and plenty of other gubbins to try out,

[jaunty dawn]

melta carbine apparently!

[floral herald]

One of the struggles for onboarding people for KT is that it's highly competitive as a GW game and that makes it intimidating to show off

[tired cairn]

Did they bullpup their melta?

[jaunty dawn]

I think I'm just thrown off by the existence of a stock cause it looks like a bullpup yeah

technically the magazine is the tank on the side

but maybe some of the action is in the stock?

[floral herald]

It looks like its in the same "order" as a normal one just cut down

[floral herald]

I will say - it helped me a lot to play Elite teams here

I only have to remember the rules for 6 fellas not 14

[upper canopy]

I wouuld love to play co-op KT

[floral herald]

I still sort of struggle to remember how my Breachers work but they're particularly complicated for that

[jaunty dawn]

I also think starting with a compendium team (though who knows if this will follow to 2e) is a good idea

cause the team rules are simple so its easier to learn the game rules

even if you just proxy models n such

[floral herald]

https://youtu.be/npkg_aycMCM
Stream VOD

[floral herald]

Yeah the compendium teams are much much simpler

[upper canopy]

Humans: "Orks are simple creatures. They simply believe that bigger, louder, guns shall lead to greater success."

Also Humans: "This is the Great Gun. It is sacred. Billions will die to protect it."

[jaunty dawn]

I imagine cable vs mag might be a like, primaris bolt rifle style option

which has no effect in 40k

[floral herald]

That makes sense

Might be a special gun which gets ceaseless or something

Oh wow coming in October

[jaunty dawn]

oh damn

[floral herald]

The Great Gun, Sacred Death, the Massif Ballistus

[upper canopy]

"THE BIG GUN"

[tired cairn]

And yet somehow the planet is crawling with tau

[floral herald]

the defenders of sacred death were not faithful enough

the gun cannot fail, but it can be failed

I hope there's rules for doing this to people

[tired cairn]

Kind of looks like they are cooperating in that picture

[upper canopy]

Vespid does Seismic Toss on a Custodes and kills them

https://tenor.com/view/charizard-rhydon-pokemon-anime-gif-23083638

[quaint compass]

Dunkwing hunting intercessors

[floral herald]

They weren't kidding its a big gun

(from about the 8 minute mark - also talks about how the gun is a cultural fixture and its maintenance and loading have become local festivals)

[jaunty dawn]

I love that

I wonder if it's too big for like

showing up as a terrain piece

I think it would barely have a perceptible curve at kill team scale

just effectively be a wall

[tired cairn]

Do you think they can aim it? Or are they like "curse those perfidious xenos. How dare they avoid the holy firing arc of the holy weapon"

[jaunty dawn]

I think it has giant cogs?

at the base?

for elevation

[tardy vault]

We're reminded of that one 90s anime short

[jaunty dawn]

is that the one where the city is a bunch of guns and everyone has to load and fire them

[tardy vault]

yeah

[floral herald]

Maybe it can be a mission modifier where it fires partway through and the report prones and stuns everyone on the board

[jaunty dawn]

yeah that one's awesome hold on

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memories_(1995_film)

third part of this

[floral herald]

Getting to the rules part (10 minutes in or so)

[jaunty dawn]

it's very 40k

and by the creator of akira

[floral herald]

all faction rules free online and updated there

reworked a lot of game language (I bet this means Obscuring is gone/reworded). Not really simplifying the game but changing the presentation.

Putting the "kill" in kill team - adding "kill op" side objectives to reward killing enemies. (looks like this favors elites woo!)

solo and coop mode - vs "procedurally generated" NPOs (non-player operatives) - sounds like each player has a kill team. Sounds like hordes of weaker enemies (poxwalkers and gants mentioned)

Not much on the solo mode, but I reckon its similar to coop but 1 player

solo and coop will be part of the quarterly releases

[solemn gull]

What the fuck did they do to vespids, they were goofy little guys!

[floral herald]

Tempestus Aquilon rule is "drop insertion" Must set up 1/3rd of operatives on table
"Remaining third" (?? how does this work?) are set up off table and can set up drop markers which move around the table and when activated (like an on table operative) can choose to stay above or drop in

It's "remaining thirds"

So this is actually nuts

They can termicide in KT

Precursor can drop into melee and hit twice before defender responds

[jaunty dawn]

oh drop markers like

[floral herald]

can dash out of melee

[jaunty dawn]

still limited by speed in terms of where you can go

[floral herald]

yeah

[jaunty dawn]

but you still get like invuln state

that's a very elegant way to do it

[floral herald]

Also apparently some of them are "dummies" and must be discarded without dropping a trooper

[jaunty dawn]

oooooh

that's so fun

[floral herald]

Yeah

Aquilons sound really interesting

[jaunty dawn]

gahhhh that's so exciting fuck

[floral herald]

Grenedier is pretty straightforward, has a melta bomb, can drop into the board near people and throw it

Which sounds dope to be clear, but you're just getting what you expect here

Gunfighter has shoot twice and can shoot while engaged

[jaunty dawn]

has melta bomb/will combat drop

[unreal cosmos]

I've seen at least a segment of this, the most 40k part is when one of the crew slips up a little in loading and as punishment his whole team is made to stand in the backblast

[jaunty dawn]

I think it's interesting that the vespid showcase doesn't seem to have their dual pistol operative

[floral herald]

Sentry is more durable, has shoot twice; basically a team gunner

[floral herald]

I dig em ngl

[jaunty dawn]

so I imagine that's an alt build for one of the other operatives

I love the little sentry guy sm

[floral herald]

I'm also gonna assume that Aquilons are a 12 model KT

[jaunty dawn]

is this it

[floral herald]

Since that splits nicely into thirds

[jaunty dawn]

is this gonna be the beginning of me having an elysians army

[floral herald]

Which also makes them as big a Navy Breachers

[jaunty dawn]

I mean I don't want to commit to an army but making a vet guard kt of drop troopers and converting a tauros venator?

[floral herald]

That does sound sick yeah

[jaunty dawn]

with aquilons as their attached stormtrooper squad?

[floral herald]

VOD notes that the access to fancy weapons is for trusted and favored auxilaries

(IE vespid)

[jaunty dawn]

good 3d printer project too

that makes sense, being given a pulse weapon is a sign of respect for kroot

[floral herald]

a little tongue in cheek since the weapons are toxic and the operations deemed too dangerous for Tau

[jaunty dawn]

pff

[floral herald]

And also just require too much mobility

So its only a little tongue in cheek

[pulsar cairn]

[floral herald]

Oh my god I just realized

KT has a strong dark grey/black on orange branding contrast

[jaunty dawn]

oh

OH

wtf that's smart

[floral herald]

SUPER subtle GW

[valid brook]

hell yeah that Otomo anthology movie with the giant gun mentioned

[floral herald]

I honestly didn't notice until someone on stream talked about painting their vespid "kill team orange"

[south axle]

It sticks out a bit when all "known" vespid are blue

[floral herald]

Vespids all fly, highly mobile

not a surprise but on stream

very fast very mobile, not tough (glass cannon team)

[valid brook]

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only International Safety Orange

[floral herald]

Neutron cannon crystals are empowered by the harmonics of Vespid wingbeats - they gain power when you fly

Team is strongly encouraged to move and attack

[tired cairn]

Sure, why not Warhammer universe

[valid brook]

That’s definitely a paraphrase of some line from the 4e Tau codex

[jaunty dawn]

Oh shit

[floral herald]

"swarm tactics" with a "communion points" system you get for leading them. Player is characterized as a Tau Overseer commanding the swarm

[jaunty dawn]

that's such a cool way to bring in that lore

[floral herald]

Can spend points to put tactical knowledge on them. If you don't they'll go on autopilot and shoot and charge the nearest enemy

Can't do mission actions without spending communion points

[jaunty dawn]

kill team single handedly carrying the 40k team (I'm counting necromunda as a seperate thing)

[floral herald]

This is kinda a wild team wtf

More tyranids than the tyranid team lol

[upper canopy]

"We are taking you off the battlefield."
"But Commander! Why? I have been nothing but loyal!"
"We have seen you play RTSes. You have an APM over 200. You are being put in command of a Stingwing."

[floral herald]

Shadestrain has an invisible "ghost rig" - can't be targeted by anything from more than 6" - has a neutraon grenade

[jaunty dawn]

if they weren't so gun oriented they might be a decent tyranid proxy. But you could always put cool weaponmorphs on gargoyles

[floral herald]

Swarm guard has a flamer - has a "skytorch" rule which lets them fly a ways and burn everyone under their flight path

Skyblast has a neutron grenade launcher - shots make a "neutron fallout" marker (in addition to damage) which damages nearby enemies for the rest of the battle

NOT limited ammo

Both of these teams are bangers

Great edition intro

[jaunty dawn]

oh damn rad grenade launcher

[floral herald]

I'm curious how many fellas the Vespid field in a team

[jaunty dawn]

Im thinking maybe eldar style 8?

with their mobility making them kinda apl 3 equivalent?

[floral herald]

They've been described as a horde

So they might be a 14er

[jaunty dawn]

hmm

[upper canopy]

I can't wait for Custodes to routinely lose to Vespids

[floral herald]

Oh apparently equipment is getting universalized

I missed that

[rocky shale]

Getting rid of the shapes might be what finally gets me into kill team

[floral herald]

I have no defense for shapes haha it was dumb

Just made things confusing and wasn't even well implemented

[jaunty dawn]

so grenades makes sense

[floral herald]

Yeah those are probably just universal grenade tokens now

Something about some teams getting discounts though (like cheap smokes for phobos?)

No idea if that's real or speculative though

[valid brook]

Those lil smoke grenade tokens are so fun

Just straight up POP psssssshhhh

[jaunty dawn]

oh yeah I'm pretty sure the tol barricades are just a Heavy Cover variant since they are tall enough to obscure

losing traversable probably

[floral herald]

I think you're right

They were flirting with that with the LoV teams being able to upgrade a normal barricade to being heavy

[jaunty dawn]

oh I never saw that, that's cool

late cycle releases were probably being developed alongside this

[floral herald]

Yeah looking at the Yaegirs especially

[jaunty dawn]

oh huh

5 model kill teams future proofing or???

[floral herald]

We're probably gonna see something like this with the new mine equipment

[jaunty dawn]

I mean they technically already exist

but like

[tired cairn]

As a tyranid enjoyer, I am mildly upset at this lol

[jaunty dawn]

a lot of them became 6 model with errata etc

I'm starting to think we'll never see one :(

[floral herald]

Yeah I'm not sure what's going on there

[jaunty dawn]

I'd still love an ymgarl one

[floral herald]

With the 5 model teams

[jaunty dawn]

maybe rules changes like kill ops might make a team that elite practical

[floral herald]

I think Ymgarl Genestealers or some kind of "spec ops gaunt" team would work great

[floral herald]

Kill Ops seem like a great equalizer for elites yeah

[tired cairn]

Pretty funny to me that their "keen alien cunning" is "shoot and charge the nearest enemy" though

[floral herald]

I like playing Elites a lot but I basically have to play as cowardly as possible for kills for 2 TPs so I can play the game for real once I've thinned out the enemy

And getting VPs for doing that would help a lot

[jaunty dawn]

oh wait hey

[valid brook]

Ymgarl stealers plus like Lictor Junior or something seems like such a no-brainer KT tbh

[jaunty dawn]

additional option rather than extra points

[floral herald]

I really dig the scouting phase RPS

I hope they add something kind of like it for later TPs

[jaunty dawn]

and +1 barricade focused one gone so probably folded into whatever the big equipment system is

I did notice they only showed two of the current (slightly tweaked) barricade design

they also only show one of the triangle-ish measure; so maybe two accessory sprues in this release giving two regular barricades each etc?

wonder if the tall thin barricade's loophole can actually be shot through

[floral herald]

I'm gonna guess no but without evidence haha

[jaunty dawn]

gosh

I'm gonna have to bully my family into playing so much kill team when this comes out

[floral herald]

It'll probably be easier with the pve stuff

[jaunty dawn]

I have like, the full into the dark set other than the last one with medical bits

my dad also got the phobos vs chaos killzone

with the stc bunkers

[floral herald]

I like that terrain

[jaunty dawn]

ooh

just noticed status markers are now all like

not pointed so they kinda slot into a base

slightly curved

[floral herald]

Oh that's cool

[jaunty dawn]

orange being engage and conceal being blue is nice but it is a shame that my clever trick for not having to flip everyone's markers at the start of the round won't really work now

[floral herald]

I'm really excited that all the bespokes are getting rules from the start too

[jaunty dawn]

I just flipped the initiative token each round so whichever colour it is, is ready that round

[orchid venture]

holy shit that all looks hot as hell

… what colour are 2nd ed vespid i wonder…

[upper canopy]

green, aren't they?

[orchid venture]

yeah think so

[floral herald]

Looks like uuuuuhhh forest camo

[jaunty dawn]

pff

[floral herald]

Green makes sense to me though

I really like the look of the Aquilons but I think I'm more interested in the bugs

[jaunty dawn]

I think I'm gonna print some classic stormtrooper muzzle heads for aquilons

and write off the other design changes that came with scions as detail advancement

I think a fun blue-green would make a good retro vespid scheme

[south axle]

I think we are getting some lore rewrite on Vespids soon

[jaunty dawn]

idk it all mostly seems the same vibe

maybe some clarified elements but that's just what happens when something gets More Lore for the first time in like 20 years haha

[south axle]

Old lore referencing their wings are along the lines of "how da fuq do they work"

[jaunty dawn]

ohhh

yeah that might be being retconned

cause they have fully given them geonosian bug wings

[floral herald]

I really like the "wing harmonics empower their guns so you gotta go sicko mode" rule

[south axle]

THe new wing design and the trailer kinda establish how they wokr

[jaunty dawn]

idk why I even said might yeah

you're right

[south axle]

THe old wings were wacky

[floral herald]

I'm horribly tempted to proxy some AT43 Therians for them and recontextualize Communion Points as Sweat Points because your operatives are all posthuman gamers who just wanna score 360 noscopes

Was there weird old wing lore for them?

[south axle]

I think it was the old Deathwatch RPG that made it wierd

[jaunty dawn]

not mentioned in the 4e codex

oh that would make sense

[south axle]

THe wing design doesn't help either

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

[bold halo]

vespids were bad minis for the time when they released and haven't aged any better

[jaunty dawn]

this art is kinda implying they like

[bold halo]

bzzzzzzzz

[jaunty dawn]

vibrate them? parallel to their own axis?

which would certainly be odd

[pastel rampart]

It was honestly just the wings, had they been insect ones from the start it would've been fine.

[floral herald]

So I guess for flying focus stuff we get a team which can deep strike operatives with some extra rules vs a team which is genuinely all flying with guns but needs to move to be at max power and has to jump through hoops to do objectives

[jaunty dawn]

I really like how they're painted

like the stippled and freckled markings on the feet

[south axle]

TIL vespids had 13 model max as a unit once upon a time

[jaunty dawn]

I hope someone does it like that

[floral herald]

Being a stingwing Shas'ui sounds like suffering you're just in charge of a bunch of fast moving goons who just wanna kill

[jaunty dawn]

yeah tau before 5e had non decimal squad sizes

[south axle]

Piper was fast with a update to their Vespid adjacent mechs

[floral herald]

And the "communion helm" being a "please... the objective guys" helm not (seemingly) mind control is very funny to me

[jaunty dawn]

although it seems like 11 model max?

the mind control hint is based on the fact that they didn't like, argue, once the water caste was able to communicate with them

but like that could also just be their vibe. they're aliens

[floral herald]

Yeah

[jaunty dawn]

oh wild

[floral herald]

11 models is a little smaller than I expected but not shocking to me

Looks like Aquilons might also be 11

[jaunty dawn]

oh sorry that was their 4e squad size

not a kt thing

haha

13 makes sense in a post 8e, kit focused era rather than a lore thing

[floral herald]

https://fixupx.com/warhammer/status/1824861316441416095
Oh sorry haha - I was going off of this group shot

[jaunty dawn]

oh wild

yeah 10 + drone makes sense

it will be really funny if the drone is replacible and they end up at their original max squad size though

[floral herald]

https://fixupx.com/warhammer/status/1824846217710366889
Which also makes it 11v11

With a drone each

[jaunty dawn]

yeah that makes sense

[south axle]

Aquilon getting 1 more named class from the looks of it

6 for Aquilon while Vespids get 5

[pastel rampart]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/799328174214479993/1274439769052676197/image.png?ex=66c24206&is=66c0f086&hm=d9bcba9af8857ca6b316c45a9fc3cce332524c33a86eafd65a1eaa6f358e43d2&format=webp&quality=lossless&

[valid brook]

live overseer drone reaction

[south axle]

Shas'ui showing his emotions thru the drone

[valid brook]

c’mon gang, please, the objective

[jaunty dawn]

I know tactical assets are not The Play but I think drop troop vetguard with strafing run and air strike would be really cool. and hey 2e might buff that

[floral herald]

It'd be cool if 3e made options besides extra fellas stronger

[soft willow]

Or have a separate tactical asset budget.

[jaunty dawn]

just found out that were was Another kill team release in between shadow war armageddon and kt18

[south axle]

Around the Breacher release huh

[jaunty dawn]

oh oops this was actually before swa

breachers was the previous year yeah

[graceful hollow]

How many editions are there lol

[jaunty dawn]

so

[floral herald]

It's complicated

[jaunty dawn]

this is kinda what I'm getting at

[floral herald]

Technically speaking its probably much more accurate to call this KT2024 not KT3e

[south axle]

We are on 3rd which is the 7th I think?

[jaunty dawn]

but my take is essentially that kt21 is its own game that shares a name with a few other things

and we are seeing the second edition of that game

[floral herald]

I think the oldest version is the Kill Team rules in 4e 40k

Which were just in the main rule book and were very different from the modern ones

[jaunty dawn]

that's one of the things that complicates it

[floral herald]

Highly asymmetrical

[jaunty dawn]

cause like, imo even to the point of kt18, kill team as a game mode is so different to kt21

[floral herald]

And KT18 was super different from "KT04"

[jaunty dawn]

and I don't really consider kill team 18 to be enough of its own game to not just be a different way of writing kill team as a game mode

[floral herald]

Which had a custom squad of elite operatives the "kill team" facing off against a hugely numerically superior but weak "brute squads" with leaders

[jaunty dawn]

it could've if it did more with the formal seperation

[floral herald]

Who initially just patrolled and weren't aware of the kill team's presence

It was weird

[jaunty dawn]

over the years kill team became symmetrical because people were more into that, but the concept of making an army by essentially having no minimum squad size and every model was its own thing persisted in some form till dark imperium

and was supported with small booklets n such

this is partially because like, from 3rd to 7th rules weren't really invalidated ever

[floral herald]

Also fun fact: combat patrol also had rules in 4e 40k

[jaunty dawn]

like despite the fact kill team wasn't in the 5e rulebook its not really accurate to say that meant there was no kill team at that time

over time rules became more incompatible

[jaunty dawn]

And then I'd need to research shadow war armageddon more but my impression is that's far closer to like, a retrospective '0th edition' of kt21 than kt18 is

the 4e rulebook is honestly really fun

[floral herald]

I forgot how good this rulebook was yeah

[jaunty dawn]

4e is my Erika's 2e haha

[floral herald]

Lmfao they gotta bring these guys back

[jaunty dawn]

I mean

I wouldn't be surprised if this has some influence on solo/coop kill team actually

[floral herald]

Yeah same

It's both really cool to see all these kitbashes and such and also funny to see how many of these just became bespoke teams in KT21

[jaunty dawn]

oh wow yeah

(gw make catachans already)

[floral herald]

mood tbh

I started playing in 4e but even looking back there's so much in the way of extra game modes and hobby support in the 4e book

[south axle]

Not posting the Tyranid one?

[floral herald]

What's a tyranid kill team?

(jokes aside what's that one - I don't remember it)

[floral herald]

I did miss this great 13th company one though

[jaunty dawn]

I read the 5e space marine codex recently because I was thinking about badab war and that was what's contemporary and it revived feelings of rage and bitterness as to how much of a step down it is

it was the edition where if you didn't take a named character your chapter tactics was ultramarines by default

which was being able to autofail morale checks if you choose

13th great company is awesome

I hope tabletop tactics get back to doing theirs

[floral herald]

Oh that's rad, where is it from?

I didn't see it in the 4e book for kill team

[jaunty dawn]

looks like white dwarf maybe?

[south axle]

Might be later, it's from a White Dwarf

https://www.instagram.com/hivefleetmoloch/

The instagram of the one who made it

[floral herald]

It looks like its from roughly that era

Reinforces my idea that "commando gaunts" would make a great hive fleet bespoke

[tired cairn]

The 4e combat patrol rules really annoyed me as a tyranid player. All of the synapse creatures were more than two wounds lol

[south axle]

The Crimson Stalkers of Tenebra Prime is the name of KT

[south axle]

It was made post Tyranid plastic update in 4th edition

[floral herald]

That's what I was thinking yeah, I think those Spinegaunts came out right around then

[south axle]

WD 307 in July of 05

I think I own or have owned this issue actually

[jaunty dawn]

ohh same

[floral herald]

Oh I remember that cover

[jaunty dawn]

I recognise it

[valid brook]

I think that’s a Karl Kopinski cover

[south axle]

Found it

Karl Kopinski is attributed as an artist in the magazine

[unreal cosmos]

My reading is that it definitely comes off as shady that they seemed completely alien until the Ethereals were like "here try this tech" and then the translator seemed to instill an automatic understanding of the Greater Good. Like I don't enjoy Ethereal mind control theories but to me this feels like an actual fitting satire of neoliberal imperialism and the philosophical assumptions necessary to make things like universal translation possible.

My feelings about the T'au Empire have shifted a lot but rn it's "I don't trust a political philosophy founded on a caste system to provide the answer to interspecies unity"

[jaunty dawn]

oh I agree really

and I'm kinda ambivalent on mind control n all

I do kinda like the idea of actually chill tau but think that that does involve changing the lore

I hope support for previous killzones is gonna come with release like for previous kill teams

[south axle]

The two lists played back in 05

And this good old segment

[dense sedge]

Had a spearhead demo game, fun but the juggernauts wrecked me

[solemn gull]

How dare you they are so precious

They share the same area in my heart for rogue trader tyranids

[finite compass]

I really miss all the old 'make your own terrain' articls

[south axle]

THe issue I have taken pictures of had like 2-3 terrain guides, and a 2-spread basing article

[jaunty dawn]

tbt to when they even credited individual 'eavy metal painters

was wondering if the vespid were painted by Tammy Haye because I really liked her work on the initial tau release, but looks like, based on the 4e codex credits, she was no longer part of the team by then

(which is a shame cause like, her work is still in the book!)

(and also every book until the newest one, probably)

[unreal cosmos]

This is a silly question because the obvious answer is "it's Your Guys do whatever" but I'm looking at the decal sheets I have on hand and I'm tempted to make it so some units use different role markers. Like my Eradicators will have the Dark Angels red symbol and the Infurnus...es will have the more standard white 🔼. In my lore they're Codex-compliant but isolated, do any ideas jump to mind for making this feel organic?

[floral herald]

I think that kind of minor divergence is pretty easy to justify

[desert jay]

Late, but my read was "All scions are trained in jumping out of planes dropships but only aquilons have the fancy grav chutes"

... I'm pretty sure fast-roping exists in 40k lore/fluff

[jaunty dawn]

nah scions explicitly use grav cutes and it's state of the art for drop troopers of all stripes

[desert jay]

Oh wait, reread it

Aquilons never don't use grav chutes

[jaunty dawn]

which I guess is to say I don't read it as strong enough to think it's retconning that much

ye

[cosmic tulip]

Hearing “imperium” and “state of the art” is so funny

[jaunty dawn]

which is a cool concept don't get me wrong

but it's like

[cosmic tulip]

Do the chutes use grav tech

Or are they just like THRUSTERS