Warhammer and Such

[rocky shale]

They do have fights first

[thin ibex]

oh huh yeah they do

so they have fights first and advance and charge

which is not a bad profile

[rocky shale]

They just don't hit hard enough to actually kill enough models for fights first to be good

[thin ibex]

tbf, comparatively, the striking scoprions baseline have no AP, 4 attacks, and are also D1, they just also get sustained hits and dev wounds against non heavies

[rocky shale]

If they charge anything with a meaningful melee profile they kill maybe 1 model then all die since they're like t3 1w 4+ 4++ (in melee)

[rocky shale]

They're also cheaper and have infiltrator which makes them a decent screening unit.

Scorpions aren't particularly scary in melee, but they can chew up t3 chaff better than banshees and they do better at being cheap and disposable

[thin ibex]

man, blood angels nerfs were strange as heck. Though the sanguinary guard buff was nic

nice

deathwing buffs seem a bit nice

basilisks and manticores for guard got nerfed

kasrkin are upcosted by 20 points

[floral herald]

I think Dark Angels got a fair amount out of this one

[thin ibex]

lol as expected all teh ctan got nerfed

[spice flicker]

Black Templar ironstorm got a much needed nerf.

[desert jay]

Oh huh, BT Crusader Squad only got a points nerf on MSU, interesting

It's kinda funny to see Custodes points in straight green all the way down

[tepid stratus]

It basically brought us back to our pre codex points

[south axle]

Is MSU: MinSizeUnit, MidSizeUnit or MaxSizeUnit?

[desert jay]

Minimum

Are the other two in use?

[south axle]

I dunno, but this was the first time "hearing" MSU overall so

[tepid stratus]

Minimum is the only use of it I've ever heard

People will usually just say "maxed", "reinforced" or "double" for full size units

[south axle]

Mid Size I would think nobody uses

[tepid stratus]

Especially now that most units only come in 2 size options

[south axle]

Looks at their Custodes

[tepid stratus]

Custodes are a weird one because of the whole "build the characters out of the normal unit" thing

[south axle]

4 of the Units have more than 2 sizes

The Vigilator and Witchseeker discounts are weird, as they only affect only one size or all but one size

[floral herald]

It's short for Multiple Small Units

Basically taking 2 min squads over 1 max squad kind of thing

Since that trades "slot efficiency" and VP efficiency for usually a larger density of special weapons and sergeants

[desert jay]

I've usually seen it expanded to Min Size Unit but it's still the concept of taking small units

[past sphinx]

Do not ask how long these have sat primed

[ebon forge]

Oh btw, tips for painting a knight? I am unsure with I will get first

but I prefer one with a... helmet head, not the rectangular ones, the warhogs, right?

[rocky shale]

Do you have an airbrush?

[jaunty dawn]

leave as many armour panels off as possible

[past sphinx]

If it's your first big a** vehicle choose a darker color palate, Consider just priming your Exo skeleton Matt black and dry brushing on your metallic with a makeup brush for a nice weather look without 15 hours and a s*** load of paint

[unreal cosmos]

omg I just realized what happened

[ebon forge]

yes

[pastel rampart]

Oh good an airbrush will make things so much simpler

[upper bluff]

What happened

[pastel rampart]

Someone set us up the bomb

[jaunty dawn]

atlas censored some curses with unescaped asterisks and that's why their message is randomly half bold

[pastel rampart]

https://vxtwitter.com/mossacannibalis/status/1783479591144988967

[past sphinx]

I'm going to have to spend 200 dollars for a repressor just to but those stormtroopers in a proper ride

[zinc field]

The two main methods for knight frames I've seen are "prime metal and add wash" and "prime black and drybrush metal". I highlighted the cables in red and yellow on some of mine and I think it really helps things pop

[desert jay]

Consider: 🖨️

[ebon forge]

thank you!
Love the stripes and the metal wear, specially on the flamer~!

[zinc field]

thanks

[upper bluff]

Do you think there is a knights player who doesn't have a warglaive?

[zinc field]

oh also: an easy lens recipe is to paint the eyes a very bright silver and put a translucent blue on top

[upper bluff]

I've never seen one without it

[upper bluff]

I'll remember this for my Skitarii

[zinc field]

the other other thing is that knights are very tolerant of being dunked in an alcohol bath and having the paint job scrubbed off

I have a knight on its third paint job

[jaunty dawn]

the upgrade bits at the very least

[past sphinx]

forge world east is likely the only option

forgeworld shed is good but sometimes poeople just havent made the weird shit

[jaunty dawn]

there's definitely repressor files out there!

probably at least partially cause before legends became not allowed in tournament play they were pretty popular haha

in 8th edition

[pastel rampart]

Yeah I was gonna say, there's gotta be either a whole-ass 3D count-as or even just upgrade parts to print.

[pastel rampart]

https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/game/heavy-armored-multiple-missile-launcher-tank

https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/game/high-detail-sisters-of-battle-repressor-immolator-and-exorcist-3d-print-model

https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/game/arbites-or-inquisition-repressor-apc

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3003735 And a free one.

[soft willow]

Buy a metallic primer and most of the work is done for you. If you airbrush you'll love the big color sections, if not, get a bigger brush. No, a bigger brush. Take your time and get creative with them you have a lot of space to work with and it's fun.

[sweet solar]

theres some really good sponge tutorials

for painting knights with sponges for instant large acale texture

[thin ibex]

This is a fake tip: use a paint roller that's used to paint house walls

Or a broom as a brush

Full a reservoir with diluted pigment and dip it

Pour paint in your hands and throw it at the model

Jackson Pollock a knight

Splatter painted knight might actual be kind of cool

[bright dove]

I would do this for khornate knights melee weapons.

[thin ibex]

Maybe a Eldar wraith knight themed after harlequins could do a lot of multicolor

Also Tangent, but I've recently started rogue trader and am really enjoying it

I wish wraithknights were a bit cooler, though I do love their sword/glaive

[zinc field]

I’ve been using a kitchen sponge for the background and an old toothbrush for the star spatter. Might need to do a true Jackson Pollock for my next armiger

[uneven ember]

ohhh that's cool

[soft willow]

Don't tempt me.

[thin ibex]

Question where both answers are right: Eldar Ranger is an Assassin or a Bounty Hunter in terms of vibes?

[tired cairn]

I guess of those two, Assassin (because they are snipers in combat) would be the closest?

But besides being their name, they are more like scout vibes

[uneven ember]

I think you can have an Eldar Ranger in a Necromunda Bounty Hunter gang

[thin ibex]

Yeah I'm split. To give greater context, the assassin subclass is all about targeting one guy and shooting them while the bounty hunter is similar but they mark multiple targets that they can kill for bonuses, and get additional affects against hunted foe

So both are solid on single target elimination

But the assassin has more going on up front while the bounty hunter has more of a build up and reward

Also bounty hunter has more drbuffs while the assassin is raw Killin power

[past sphinx]

Technically venators can be any model but you can absolutely buy a "sling gun" that definitely isn't a shurikin cannon

[obsidian pollen]

Lictors beat Harlqiuns in stealth

[quaint compass]

and also to death

[ebon forge]

Grab a broom, soak in Null Oil, and go painting, go it.

[spice flicker]

About how many officers should you aim for with imperial guards at 1k, 1.5k, and 2k. Doing some testing and troubleshooting before a crusade and was trying to see.

[jaunty dawn]

aiui they're kinda ovepriced if you want to actually be efficicent

so people just take the big multi order ones like leontus

in crusade though I'd just follow essentially the same organisation as used to be mandatory with the platoon system

one platoon command leading each platoon (3-5 guardsmen squads, 1-3 leman russ squadrons, etc) and one company command leading the whole operation

or more broadly - one for each section ofthe army adn then 1 overall officer who's your warlord

this is the cool kroot relic I've mentioned before!

[spice flicker]

Ok so if I am focused on Mechanized Infantry and have 6 squads would you say a castellan, commissar, and Platoon command squad (with vox, medipack, and lascannon) would be enough even if the PCC and castellan share a squad?

[jaunty dawn]

depends entirely on what you mean by enough

[spice flicker]

Right now I am toying with mixed infantry with a bunch of Chimera and 20 man blobs in one army, and pure death korps in the other focused on expanding into artillery once the 6 infantry squads are in the list.

[thin ibex]

Lord Solar "God of Orders" Leontus

I think rather than looking at volume, look at what kind of orders you want to be dishing out regularly

what an officer/command squad can bring to the table, repsectively, is

• their special rule
• a power weapon and a plasma pistol
• A single order per command phase (usually)

and

• more bodies and guns that have OC and can benefit from the combined regiment special rule

i think if i were making a fluffy list with the intent to have the orders be dished out from inside a chimera, id probably have at least 3 officers between 6 squads, but 4-5 sounds better for relative independence

i do like the chimera + infantry squad + commander pocket of units

feels very adaptable as a block

[desert jay]

“They made basic officers kinda expensive so everyone just brings Lord Solar” sure is an interesting game design situation

[jaunty dawn]

ursula creed is cheaper than a platoon squad and gives two orders

[tired cairn]

Lord Solar also works with tanks

[jaunty dawn]

as well double orders on her own squad and free strat

[thin ibex]

Ursula is actually quite good just more limited on who she attaches too iirc

Lord solar is just incredible at orders

[tired cairn]

Lord Solar must be exhausted going to every battlefront in the galaxy

[thin ibex]

And tbf he's not an elite combatant

Just lord solar bots

[jaunty dawn]

and then leontus is two platoon squads for 3 orders to anything, redeploy, and no strings cp

[thin ibex]

Incidentally I never make my guard lists with lord solar

Then again I usually don't use named characters in my lists

Unless it's like... about them

Castellans are nice cause they fit into a chimera with a squad

[spice flicker]

If only epic heroes were worth it just a little more in crusade.

[spice flicker]

Same.

The death korps Marshal is good for thr 5++ and 5+++

[spice flicker]

Below are the ideas I had for a guard crusade force progressing from 1k to 1.5k to 2k. The idea is just go heavy on Mechanized guard as well as 20 man bricks since the wall of guns could always use more bricks after all. Thoughts on this work in progress?

https://pastebin.com/9qNmMTGm
https://pastebin.com/2rxrUHDL
https://pastebin.com/crx4Z3mS

[ebon forge]

That shrimple?

[thin ibex]

Looking at the 2k, plenty of wounds on the table, though the entire list is fragile i think most armies will struggle to put out the volume needed to wipe you. Does mean its a little harder for you to hold critical spots. Question, why scout sentinels over armored?

i figure the play is to wagon wheel with chimeras on points that are important to you

and then just volley with all you got, killing around the harder targets

[desert jay]

They assume you've already jumped through the hoop of buying, assembling, and painting a resin model the size of a small child

[ebon forge]

oh wait so those aren't the knights?

[jaunty dawn]

titanicus is titans (oops)

chaos knights and imperial knights are different factions with their own datasheets n such

[ebon forge]

Those are Titanicus, right?

[jaunty dawn]

right so

I can see how this is confusing haha

[ebon forge]

o

[jaunty dawn]

Adeptus Titanicus is also the name of its own game

[floral herald]

Those are all knights and at least organizationally titans and knights aren't the same

[desert jay]

The small guys in that pick are epic-scale knights, the bigger guys are titans

[jaunty dawn]

where you do titan and knight vs titan and knights at a smaller scale

actually the guy in the middle is a titan

showing how the biggest AT titans are the same size as 40k knights

[floral herald]

Oh yeah wait I saw the 40k scale knight in the upper right and didn't look that closely haha

[ebon forge]

ok so
Adeptus Titanicus is it's own game
AND
Is the massive models the size of a small child?

[jaunty dawn]

all the unpainted stuff is from Adeptus Titanicus (the game)

yes!

or smaller models when you're playing said game

[desert jay]

The painted guys are heroic-scale knights

[ebon forge]

why they named like this, John GW please

[floral herald]

I think that was a reference to the 40k scale reaver titan model actually

[jaunty dawn]

adeptus titanicus is the name of the organisation to which titans belong to

so they named the game about fighting titans vs titans the same haha

[desert jay]

Just pass me a "Crusader" model :D

[upper bluff]

Titans are so silly

[jaunty dawn]

'titan' is a general term for anything that walks around and is bigger than a knight

[ebon forge]

https://tenor.com/view/darkest-dungeon-2-crusader-gif-8046764917840459989

[upper bluff]

Like bullets the size of freight trains silly

Probably bigger

[jaunty dawn]

so it also includes stuff like the hierophant bio-titan and the biggest eldar wraiths

ork gargants, but those never got a model

[ebon forge]

Ok so 👏
This 10e datasheet it would be used in the BIG Reaver model
Not the smaller reaver model

[jaunty dawn]

ye!

the smaller one is not directly usable in 40k

[ebon forge]

Right

And the small ones
Is for the Adeptus Titanicus(game) that is Knights, mechs, only

[upper bluff]

You'll probably never see a full-sized titan on a table

[jaunty dawn]

okay so there's. also another game now

called legions imperialis

[ebon forge]

never saw a table irl in front of me

[jaunty dawn]

which also uses the small titan models

[upper bluff]

Imperialis seems kinda cool honestly

[jaunty dawn]

alongside planes and tiny little tanks and infantry

[floral herald]

I honestly have no idea what the confusion here is

[upper bluff]

Its just what's a titan vs a knight

[ebon forge]

there is small knights and BIG knight models
What's the difference

NOw i know! 😄

[ebon forge]

huh

[floral herald]

Yeah but like, what does that have to do with this?

[upper bluff]

They thought that was for knights? I think

[ebon forge]

Yeah

[floral herald]

I don't even know what ruleset that's from

[ebon forge]

Adeptus Titanicus 10e

[jaunty dawn]

the faction

not the game

[ebon forge]

yes

which edition is Adeptus Titanicus (game) btw?

[jaunty dawn]

that's the rule for using titans in chaos armies

I think it's technically only had one but there's been previous games in like a similar vein iirc

possibly with the same name

[floral herald]

Adeptus Titanicus or maybe Titanicus was its own game way back when

[jaunty dawn]

its kinda like how the current kill team isn't really a numbered edition

even though many games or game modes have had the name kill team

[ebon forge]

And people still play titanicus? Like
It has ...support or?

[floral herald]

The modern incarnation is Legiones Imperialis

[jaunty dawn]

the current game is relatively recent

[floral herald]

Yeah technically speaking I think its Kill Team 3e but no one calls it that

[jaunty dawn]

and still gets rules when new models come out

[upper bluff]

I've never heard of people playing it

[jaunty dawn]

it's got its own community

also as an aside, Titan clubs will play adeptus titanicus (the game) but using full sized titans

scaling all the range measurement to match etc

[upper bluff]

So they rent out like a tennis court or something?

[jaunty dawn]

usually more like a function room but yeah

on the floor

[upper bluff]

I already trashed on tape measure games before getting into 40k I couldn't imagine measuring in yards

Crazy

[jaunty dawn]

adeptus titanicus is still in print though, which you can kinda see by comparison to aeronautica which has pretty much been shuttered

and the heresy era models moved to LI and everything else (the xenos stuff) OOP

(aeronautica is another game that is a successor to older games of the same name)

[solemn gull]

Rip aeronautica

Specialist games are imo the coolest part of 40k

[jaunty dawn]

...adeptus titanicus models might be the only models left that are like sold for two system simultaneously

other than chaos daemons I guess

and some other stuff. it's just getting rarer

[ebon forge]

Technically you can use kill team stuff on regular 40k but
Yeah

[floral herald]

A lot of the kill teams count I agree

[ebon forge]

Well hey that explains it why I see models of the same Knight but in different sizes, thank ya

[desert jay]

I think every KT either uses 40k models or has a 40k squad using the KT kit

[ebon forge]

At the start they did, but then they started getting unique models

[desert jay]

Some models/weapons in the KT kits are KT-only but you can still build a 40k squad with the same kit

Like "Kill Team: Fellgor Ravagers" also builds "Fellgor Beastmen" squad for CSM

[jaunty dawn]

I think the main thing is like mini titans now uses LI packaging while still coming with AT rules elements (command deck things)

and neither is a mainline game

I do agree that kill team and 40k are more integrated than most though, especially since there's a fair chunk of teams that don't use any kill team branded boxes

[ebon forge]

so to see if i got everything up
BIG one is for 10
Smol for Titanicus

And when people say they play Knight only games, is with smol versions

[jaunty dawn]

you could play knight only games in either system

like you can play 40k and just both play knights

[thin ibex]

i miss the old shokk attack gun

even tho i dont play orks

and havent played an actual game in forever

i suppose at least its more consistent

[ebon forge]

yes yes, but nowadays what people are mostly doing?
Like, if you hear some saying they play Knights, is mostly refering to that them?

Since TItanicus is more niche

[thin ibex]

but i liked when it had bubble chukka vibes

I generally assume when someone says they play knights that they are playing imperial or chaos knights in 40k

and not titanicus

[ebon forge]

thank

[solemn gull]

I miss when the teleport gun had a chance to instantly destroy any vehicle

[thin ibex]

im not necessarily against changing anything away from being able to instant kill stuff

like the old space wolf jaws of the world wolf

that didn't really need to exist

[solemn gull]

Ehhh

It had a rogue trader charm

[thin ibex]

high lethality gameplay in general was like... not the greatest imo

and it created a save/damage output arms race

[solemn gull]

Its a 1/10 chance for a grot to teleport into a land raider and kick a plasma reactor

If I lost my best vehicle to it I would probably laugh or at least say “wow”

[thin ibex]

like 8th and 9th i think were a little too far in the direction of everything kills everything

Yeah, but now, if say you played knights, having one of your knights just instantly erased with no chance to save would be hella feels bad

much like using a psychic power to instantly remove a land raider or more than one carnifex was generally considered a little sucky

[solemn gull]

I mean it’s pretty rare

Idk

I don’t take the game that seriously

[floral herald]

the bubble chukka never really caused an arms race

It wasn't really "high damage" it just occasionally dropped tanks upside down and then they were done

Wait heck I'm thinking of the lifta droppa

Orks love their whacky energy weapons

[thin ibex]

i do think the zzap gun is a hella lackluster nowadays

being a 1 shot weapon on a 5+ BS

[floral herald]

these days

[thin ibex]

ok ok

its never been great

[floral herald]

It's been like that for like 5 editions haha

The Big Gunz version was decent because it was used by Grots

[thin ibex]

i kinda wish it was like... you know the lov gun that has like sus hits 3 or something

have the zap gun have some sort of crazy sus hits stat

and on the 2/6 chance you hit, half hte time you're getting a huge batch of hits

or give it lethal 5+ xD

in any event, i think instant KO weapons are hard to put into the current 40k

though certainly certain weapons should be stronger

looking at you vortex missile

[floral herald]

I think the blurst instant kill example was Lukas the Trickster's 5e rules

[thin ibex]

then again anyhting like the vortex missile has to straddle the line between auto take/meta defining and not very goood i guess

man i think 5e is when i bought my wolves cause i remember that being a talking point at hte lgs

[floral herald]

Where if you killed him in melee he detonated his stasis bomb heart replacement dead man switch and the model who killed him in melee had to pass an initiative save or be instantly killed

[thin ibex]

of people kinda loving lukas

[jaunty dawn]

if someone says they 'play knights' they probably mean they play the knights army in 40k

[ebon forge]

thank ya

[jaunty dawn]

if they were talking about titanicus they'd just say that, in titanicus knights are basically your cheaper fodder compared to the titans being the main event

[tired cairn]

It's weird how knights and titans have totally different organizational structures and yet somehow knights still show up in numbers for Titan-offs

[thin ibex]

and in legion imperialis they become your like mid-ground heavy hitters

lol

has there been any lore on how hte legio titanicus or the adeptus titanicus views knight houses and knight pilots?

i know the mechanicus has knight houses declared for them

[tired cairn]

I think the same thing goes on for knights and titanicus stuff

Certainly the game books divide it into mechanicus-sworn houses and otherwise-imperium-sworn ones

[desert jay]

And also half the titans looks like knights but bigger while Warhound and Reaver have like their own design style

[tired cairn]

Do titans also have the helmet that slowly turns you into a all the previous people who wore it?

[floral herald]

No

[thin ibex]

the fight with the titan is hte monstrous machine spirit subsuming you as a princeps

so princeps, as a rule, have extreme force of personality

[tired cairn]

Oh, I guess that's kind of similar at least

[thin ibex]

titan machine spirits are notoriously forceful and billigerent

[jaunty dawn]

also knights aren't generally depicted with like control helmets

it's the throne mechanicum

(I think knights do wear helmets, it's just to protect them n all not the main link)

[tired cairn]

Oh

[pulsar cairn]

why abby so beeg

[pastel rampart]

Chaos juice.

[pulsar cairn]

nutritious

[jaunty dawn]

titan princeps and moderati are mega plugged though

[tired cairn]

Apparently armigar pilots get the helmet version

[jaunty dawn]

ohh right

makes sense

[ebon forge]

more chair than man...

[jaunty dawn]

they don't have a full throne iirc

@}}}}

'

[tired cairn]

A little throne because they are just a little guy

Do you have a cat per chance?

[jaunty dawn]

haha no I just closed my laptop

and then discord crashed

[junior robin]

techpriests must hate laptops, so little space to put the candles and the seals.

[ebon forge]

what you mean, the back of a laptop is a canvas

[spice flicker]

So I know the ad Mech are in a pretty bad spot right now in 10th but what are some good things about them? What would you say makes them worth playing right now?

[ebon forge]

behold

[ebon forge]

Cool models

[spice flicker]

Aye but what else?

[jaunty dawn]

they can play the game well it just requires running copious amounts of skitarii

[desert jay]

Imagine guard but instead of a dozen different tanks and shit you have a bunch of fucked up cyborgs and they rule

[jaunty dawn]

flood the board with 5++ stealth infantry

[desert jay]

(Conceptually, the datasheets are just alright)

[tired cairn]

Also incredibly cheap walkers

[desert jay]

Though they say AdMech will be getting rules love of some sort in July

[jaunty dawn]

they're actually pretty highly placed in top tables

just limited in who can afford to run it

[tired cairn]

Ah, I thought they were 50% win rate

Though maybe that includes people who can't afford 9-27 dragoons

[ebon forge]

Yeaaah is always good to put in consideration the price in money as well, not only points

if i recall correctly, is one of the reasons why Ad Mech players got sad when they became a horde army

[desert jay]

I think there'd be less worry/sadness if it was just basic stuff like rangers/vanguard that was points-cheap, but it's fancy models too

[tired cairn]

I'm curious at what they are going to do. They haven't made any significant changes to codex datasheets yet right?

[jaunty dawn]

can't think of anything

but yeah ironstrider/dragoons are 1 model boxes, incredibly fiddly to build/paint, and have always been like 60 points

[desert jay]

There's been some decent changes to some index stuff but the only codex change so far (besides points) is Desolation Marine squad size

But also as of January 2024 it was literally just SM and Tyranids

[jaunty dawn]

they're cool as hell but having to make like 20 of them is just unreasonable

fragile to transport too

[tired cairn]

That's all of the admech models lol

[desert jay]

I've heard specific complaints about Cawl in particular

[upper bluff]

I like admech because of the sense of style. Not just the models but also just the lore of lightning guns and punch card operated robots

There's no reason for this cool robot guy with a sick coat to have a rifle from the 15th century that shoots depleted transuranium

Like that's so cool

Yeah bolters are fun but beeg gun is only so interesting

Microchip assisted heavy machine guns is where it's at

[thin ibex]

i want more electri cult units

they seem cool

an electro bot or a electro tank would be neat

or like a mechanicus monster/vehicle who is just a huge elctro monk

[upper bluff]

Oh absolutely

There are so many awesome ideas

Maybe 11th...

[thin ibex]

im a bit greedy, i want a electro priest character

which of course would onyl be able to join 2 units on the roster

but maybe not, maybe the other guys could use a little electric juice

[upper bluff]

I could absolutely imagine an electro priest character carrying a massive battery on their back

Maybe buffing invuln saves or something not to tread on the dominus's fnp

I would use electro priests if they weren't one of the most overpriced models in the game

Like at least ironstriders are good

[tired cairn]

The ranged ones are used because of their slow

[thin ibex]

I like em but i know they're not like mainline meta. I just like the character protection rule they got goin on

do wish the stave ones were a bit more viscious in combat

or heck, came with an anti vehicle for arc staves 😛

though if i played mechanicus id probably have electo priests regardless of their meta satus

since they are also an opportunity to play with your army aesthetic a bit

[jaunty dawn]

this is a cool repose

omg

[thin ibex]

thats so friggin extra lol

"Tauva gave us a gun, by kroot im gonna use it. YOU READY COUSIN!?"

[jaunty dawn]

the two ammo bandoliers are pretty cool but also why does he have them if this is the gun haha

[upper canopy]

Has the krootox throw them

Same amount of force

[quaint compass]

I think he's just carrying extra slugs personally

Though Pete the Warman does love his random gribbly bits

[pastel rampart]

Yeah those are kroot rifle slugs.

So, y'know, ammo for a backup weapon.

finally got around to basing these old chaos knights

[proud wing]

in addition to the gene stuff, 40k operates on fromsoft logic

being more important makes you physically bigger

[uneven ember]

Not that I'm bitter or anything. -_-

[soft willow]

For like half a second I was confused why there were no robots in these pictures.

[past sphinx]

Lifts

[solemn gull]

I love the second from the right

[steep wasp]

There's surprisingly alot of room and alot of ways for a cretieqe/satire of fascism to make itself apparent in warhammer

Although this may just be me thinking again

[pulsar cairn]

[upper bluff]

No there's a lot of that

Like a good deal of the imperium's problems would be solved if it just stopped trying to be an empire

The badab sector managed itself and did great

[steep wasp]

Or cared about actually winning battles instead of the asthetics of honorable death

GW just needs to not suck off the imperium as much

[upper bluff]

But if they critiqued the imperium more openly then that might actually lead to some sort of wider plot

Things getting better or god forbid ending?!?!?!

[steep wasp]

Have the wider plot be the imperium continously collapse walst the T'au start rising

/hj

But tbh I'd question the reason to have a metaplot in a tabletop wargame

[bright dove]

I mean, they do actively point out that the Imperium is miserable to live in pretty constantly. Just because Space Marines are our designated protagonists doesn't change that.

[upper bluff]

Oh absolutely the biggest point of "maybe they can be a little more critical" is stuff like the description of callidus assassins and studf

The kind of these heroic civilian killers 🙂

Like there's fun to be had in those kind of descriptions but idk

[steep wasp]

The imperium are basically "brutish orcs" by the standards of any other setting and should be treated as such

Atleast the military groups should be

If that take makes sense/isn't psychotic

[pulsar cairn]

So uuhh

Ultra marines arent really nice marines

But what about during the great crusade?

Back then they would help to raise your planet into a functional place

[steep wasp]

The only nice ones are salamanders and their some of the only marines I like

[pulsar cairn]

Maybe not as nice as salamanders but cant be any worse than most of the other legiojs back then

Except maybe word bearers back when they were loyalists

[steep wasp]

But I don't think having the fascists who are constantly sending hundreds of millions of humans to their death for no better reason than "retreat is treason. Death is honor" should be considered heroic

at all

(The imperial guard get to be tragic characters in some capacity though)

[bright dove]

Let me tell you about this little legion known as the Night Lords....

[pulsar cairn]

Oh boi

Still

Marines can be a bit tragic too if ya think about it

Cause in a lot of chapters u just get abducted as a kid .w.

Ur not really given a choice

[steep wasp]

I kinda don't care tbh

[bright dove]

Some of the marine books get into the people who didn't pass the process to become space marines either.

[steep wasp]

They should just be evil in most cases

[pulsar cairn]

ok, sorry

[steep wasp]

I did not mean to shut you down in that case btw

My apologies if it came off like that

I just do not believe that should make the marines a sympathetic force

[pulsar cairn]

No worries

[bold halo]

bullying myself into building my minis because I want new minis but I refuse to start the shame pile cycle over again

it's working

[steep wasp]

(They say. Knowing full well they are still buying space marine 2)

[past sphinx]

they really lost the fucking plot when space marines started carrying the sign of the fucking cross

im not even in the church anymore and that pisses me off

[upper canopy]

Listen you can enjoy Space Marines as Giant Big Stompy Men Who Stomp On Bad Guys and also have the opinion that they should not be sympathetic dudes

[runic swallow]

I mean, I’d say that violent crusaders fits in with the type of stuff they were satirizing

[upper canopy]

like Boltgun is fun because Cado is a fucking maniac by anyone in his chapter's standards

[past sphinx]

Yeah thats what the rosarius was for

[runic swallow]

Like, the Redemtionist was of the same era and he was a wild eyed Spanish catholic penitent knockoff showing how religiously extreme the imperium was

[past sphinx]

they just have a fucking cross now

[runic swallow]

I guess I’m not sure what you’re talking about here, do you mean the Georgian cross on the Templars?

[upper canopy]

Thundershields have always kinda looked like that I think

[past sphinx]

Nooooooo

[runic swallow]

I can pretty easily see it just coming from a designer turning the power shield from a buckler into a tower shield

[past sphinx]

true, but that symbol has heritage in 40k and the other one is the symbol of the christian church

i dont think they missed the imagery of the most popular relgion in the world

[runic swallow]

I mean it was already a cross variant

[past sphinx]

one is the iron cross one is the thing jesus died on

true

[runic swallow]

The iron cross wasn’t the first to do that, it goes back longer than that

[past sphinx]

but it is the facist one

[solemn gull]

And the new grimaldus model has a servitor doing the jesus pose crucifix walk

I get what atlas is saying

[past sphinx]

if 40k had any satire left in it i would find it admirable that it was willing to take a shot across the bow like that

[runic swallow]

It’s the national symbol of Georgia man

[past sphinx]

and it is also the facist one

[runic swallow]

From the 5th century

[past sphinx]

and most famously worn by the nazis

around 1940

[solemn gull]

I wouldnt hate it if they had a message of like “this is how we view the catholic church”

[past sphinx]

the templars have some really interesting space for that

tis a shame

[solemn gull]

But yeah idk the imperium is justified too much by GW

[past sphinx]

the cardinal sin of GW was the first novel being space marine

actually i think that was Draco

[runic swallow]

I guess I don’t see the Catholic imagery as being new at all, it’s been in 40k for decades

[past sphinx]

absolutely true its part of the aestetic entirely

[solemn gull]

Totally but it had some more edge then

Meant something

[past sphinx]

but they didnt shoot for the fuckin cross

it is in a sense a way of going THESE ARE THE GOOD GUYS

[upper canopy]

I mean

They have

Like a few times

[past sphinx]

are we talking a literal cross or an abstraction?

[runic swallow]

What do you mean by abstraction?

[upper canopy]

The Legio Crucis

[runic swallow]

The Black Templars too

[past sphinx]

I mean they are the T itan legions

[runic swallow]

The terminator shoulder thing I forget the name of

[past sphinx]

ah but you see

[upper canopy]

Whatever the fuck this is

Crux Terminatus

[runic swallow]

Thanks

Also, crux, literally is a cross

[past sphinx]

its a sideways X

[upper canopy]

This Primaris guy

[past sphinx]

The specific ass symbol has uneven sides, im not sure of the hurdle here between the sign of the cross and a crux here

[solemn gull]

That dude was released at the same time as the shield guys from earlier

[runic swallow]

So many Christian religious orders have used an even cross man I don’t understand this distinction

[solemn gull]

Me neither

[runic swallow]

It’s stylized

Just because it’s stylized doesn’t mean it doesn’t represent the same thing

[upper canopy]

Atlas I get what you mean but I think you're getting really heated about this topic and it's making the conversation somewhat confusing.

[runic swallow]

Like I agree that the satire is mostly missing from 40k today, but this specific element has been a thing for a while

[floral herald]

?

[solemn gull]

Bring back obiwan sherlock cluseo

[runic swallow]

No, I’m actually cool with him staying gone

Now, Mad Donna…

[floral herald]

They brought back Nastase

[runic swallow]

Don’t know them

[floral herald]

Half Eldar Ultramarine librarian from Rogue Trader

[solemn gull]

It was a simpler time

[floral herald]

Now he’s just a normal Eldar farseer who’s an attache on Guilliman’s fleet

[solemn gull]

Good for him

Promoted from half eldar to full eldar

[upper canopy]

I would love if we had art of him and he was just a Space Marine sized Eldar

[floral herald]

With Nastase coming back anything is on the table imo

Just like recontextualized

[upper canopy]

They brought back the SQUATS

Those guys were literally the verb for getting retconned

[past sphinx]

Let me put it as such, Im pretty sure that the reason the space facists are covered in crux's are not in a refrence to a Georgian flag, im pretty sure its probably because some other pretty notable fascists' popularized it in the 20th century specific and entirely in refrence to that specific use and they snatched up a lot of facist icons (like the aquilia) in a similar way. The crux might be an old symbol with broad reach but just straight clapping a space crucifix to your space nazis its a very weird ass thing to do

[past sphinx]

donnas in the books again i believe

id give it 30% odds she gets some kind of model

[runic swallow]

I should say it’s not the Georgian flag, it’s from the Georgian church

[desert jay]

Not Inquisitor O. S. Clousseau

[floral herald]

I could see it though

[brittle salmon]

Is it weird??

[desert jay]

Well... not with the full name at least

[past sphinx]

To put a major religious symbol on your space nazis? a bit

[floral herald]

This seems like a really weird take to me

[upper canopy]

I mean like

they have evil popes

[runic swallow]

Then it’s been an issue for 30+ years

[upper canopy]

This is literally just the cyber-pope

[runic swallow]

Like, you had the Redemptionists, the Black Templars, a lot of echlisiarchy imagery being tweaked Catholicism/High Church stuff, etc

[plucky token]

using catholic/christian imagery for bad people isn't exactly uncommon in media

[past sphinx]

yes he is also carrying a rosarius and not a crucifix

[brittle salmon]

It's almost like using Christianity as an analogue for conservatism and control is a common theme in media

[solemn gull]

I mean he got the robes

[runic swallow]

I think you’re missing the forest for the trees

[floral herald]

I don’t really follow why it’s important to hair-split what’s a cross or why it’s actually important

[solemn gull]

Lotta christian imagery

[runic swallow]

I’d argue pretty specifically High Church stuff, but that’s probably an unnecessary specificity

[solemn gull]

Didnt use it as good as NgE

[past sphinx]

i really need to get around to that

but it has no Zaku and thus is lower on the list

[floral herald]

What’s high church in this case?

[solemn gull]

I think at this points its more of “this is our brand identity” then a “this is our take on organized religion explored through our hit ttrpg”

[upper canopy]

That's because that wasn't Christian imagery that was Ultraman imagery

[floral herald]

For space I’m quite confident it’s mostly Teutonic Knights callbacks since they’re such a heavy influence on space marines

[runic swallow]

Basically Catholic, CoE, I think Episcopalians

The rites and aesthetic that is very focused on awe of god, ritual, etc

[steep wasp]

NgE?

[solemn gull]

Evangelion

[floral herald]

Ah ok yeah I follow now

[runic swallow]

I’m not explaining it great but it’s both a similarity in the way the mass goes but also the look of the church

[steep wasp]

I mean I like Eva's lore but idk if that's a good example to use

[solemn gull]

True the creator did just say “The imagery is cool”

But they had respect for it

[runic swallow]

Wasn’t it via Ultraman?

[steep wasp]

Tes

[runic swallow]

Like, he saw ultraman which did have a Catholic creator and then went “yooooo”

Or Christian at least, idk their denomination

[floral herald]

Maybe off topic but yeah I don’t think the Christian imagery in NGE is terribly deep or much beyond an aesthetic for fight scenes

But the cross shaped explosions are cool looking

[steep wasp]

Tbfh I'm kinda a little bored of seeing bad guys smothered in Cristian/catholic immagry

[runic swallow]

I’ve heard it described as western audiences finally getting a sense of what it’s like when we take a foreign religion’s iconography and use it because we think it looks cool as fuck

[floral herald]

Yeah I think that’s accurate

[runic swallow]

And the associated incoherence of themes and symbols that comes out of that

[steep wasp]

Just in general

[floral herald]

Sort of like that Bollywood movie set in NYC

[past sphinx]

fam imma be real with you, ya aint ready for the hinduism symbiology

[desert jay]

NGE's Christian imagery is largely an Ultraman reference, with some schlocky pop culture takes on the side

[brittle salmon]

While that's fair there is absolutely a reason it's a common touchstone

[past sphinx]

i have seen some films and i dont know what the fuck is going on

[desert jay]

Ultraman, on the other hand, is hella Catholic

[past sphinx]

there is lore deeper than i can ever fathom

[steep wasp]

Not denying any of that

[runic swallow]

Oh the creater was Catholic? I was right the first time?

That’s kinda interesting just due to the context of Catholicism in Japan

[desert jay]

Yeah the creator of Ultraman was Roman Catholic

[steep wasp]

But still. I kinda want to see God and heaven be the good guys

No not kinda. I just do

[solemn gull]

Same it kind of sucks to always see either your group portrayed as the corrupt bad guys or watch such staunchly pro-“your group” stuff that it doesnt help either

[upper canopy]

I mean they are a lot still

[runic swallow]

It’s mostly because you write what you know

[upper canopy]

Not in 40k tho

[floral herald]

It’s really hard to have a terribly high stakes story when the good guys have an all-powerful all-good deity in their corner which I think makes it sorta rare

[steep wasp]

Then again who is?

[runic swallow]

Which is why we in the Americas and Europe have a lot of positive and negative depictions of Christianity

It’s in the cultural milieu

[steep wasp]

I want to see other faiths depicted then

That's probably it

[floral herald]

I think a lot of the time writers try to get around this with what I’ve been calling the “headless heavenly bureaucracy” model of Christian metaphysics

[runic swallow]

That gets the issue of “do you want someone who doesn’t know that faith taking it as a grab bag”

[floral herald]

In stuff like Soul or The Good Place

[brittle salmon]

ultrakill

[runic swallow]

Painkiller? Maybe?

[floral herald]

(Not to go on my rant but I think this makes the good place one of the most unintentionally bleak stories I’ve ever seen)

[runic swallow]

I don’t remember if heaven was good in painkiller

[dense sequoia]

In the case of ultrakill the all powerful deity is explicitly missing tbf

[floral herald]

I’ve never gotten far enough in UK to get this lore lol

[steep wasp]

||you are also potentially playing as it||

[dense sequoia]

Oh yeah gods missing up there and the angels were freaking out about it

[solemn gull]

Its totally worth it awesome game

[desert jay]

"All powerful deity generally doesn't do much" is basically just like RL Christianity

[runic swallow]

Honestly even a lot of explicitly Catholic media that isn’t just straight up evangelism usually wrestles with the idea of an absent god, it’s kinda a whole Thing in Catholic art

[solemn gull]

||”You think a mindless machine could make it that far?”||

[floral herald]

I think it’s just not that appealing for me

I’ve gotten through… idk part 2?

[runic swallow]

Like, wrestling with belief in the face of silence is a very Catholic thing (though by no means exclusive)

[floral herald]

The stuff with the kinda neon city

I just don’t care for the score attack stuff or the need the juggle weapons

[runic swallow]

Like, hell, that’s the whole point of Silence, which iirc elements of The Vatican recommended

Which is interesting since they condemned another of Scorsese’s very Catholic movies, The Last Temptation of Christ

Which I was always somewhat confused by, since it seemed to me to be very respectful of Jesus and Catholicism, but I’m probably going off on too far of a tangent with this

[solemn gull]

Yeah we are probably way off topic considering I was about to talk about mafia fiction lol

[runic swallow]

I mean I’m interested now, you wanna bring it up in #av-club

[floral herald]

I’d be interested

[solemn gull]

I mean they are confirmed to have their soul destroyed

So

What is really them anyways?

[thin ibex]

@spice flicker
https://pastebin.com/7LLUzx0D

My take on a full mechanized list

[upper canopy]

I mean they don't believe in souls so no loss on their part

[solemn gull]

I thought the necrontyr had souls before they became the necrons?

[thin ibex]

They did, a big part of what the ctan got out of out all was a taste for souls and then gorging themselves on the necron souls

[upper canopy]

Yeah but they didn't believe in it

Also I think they did say in Infinite and the Divine something about this

[lofty warren]

Accidentally proving souls are real by getting rid of them

[solemn gull]

Oh so they didnt have an existential crisis over not being the original?

[thin ibex]

Game plan is
Scions in the Taurox Primes
Ursula and Cadian in the hb chimera
Catachans in the tauroxes
Dkok in the ml chimera

Play extremely aggro, try to pocket the enemy into their DZ. Scions are the heavy hitters

The sentinels tank hunt, the hellhounds run distraction

Charge transports into melee to gum up enemy units at every opportunity once their cargo is out. Ursula stays in her personal chimera for a few rounds

The riders are mostly a "get into their deployment or table quarter" unit

[mental birch]

More surprised you don't have more scions chilling in ds

[thin ibex]

Tbh I was going to, but since I wanted pretty much everyone mounted up, felt weird for them to just narratively be in a valk

Also since I didn't bring many big guns, the reroll wounds from the t prime was gonna help out

[thin ibex]

Honestly the list relies HEAVILY on rerolls from twin linked and special rules to do the heavy lifting against armor

[past sphinx]

BAYEZARA'S CONSTELLATION

Belonging solely to the Kataphraktoi Order, this shield company of Emissaries Imperatus screams into battle abroad a fleet of anti-gravity attack vehicles. The majority of their riders ride Dawneagle Jetbikes, with Shield-Captain Bayezara Aggonades leading from astride her own armoured steed, Harbinger's Wing.

The shield company's aerial mobility has led them to employ a unique tactic which was, in turn, the inspiration for their name. Rather than deploy to a planet's surface in conventional fashion, Bayezara and her warriors instead mount their jetbikes as other voidship air breaks?? Across the target world

A second women has struck the workshop

Millions will die

[floral herald]

Adeptus Mechanicus

[floral herald]

This is the trademark of women custodes now - low res images

We'll probably have like a 32x32 pixel grid for the news if they add female space marines

[lofty warren]

God, that would bring about the end times

[desert jay]

Grainy low-res pics of unreadable fluff text accompanied by the caption "I want to believe"

[upper canopy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmaUIyvy8E8

[upper canopy]

average womanstodes shield captain

[desert jay]

I keep forgetting how crunchy this vid gets so every time I watch it it feels like my headphones are dying on me

[past sphinx]

I appreciate the seeming trend of their "just fucking send it" mentality

Gotta love a combiplasma where it's just 2 plasma guns

[desert jay]

Storm Plasma

[upper canopy]

Double-Barreled

[solemn gull]

mmmmm space hulk

[past sphinx]

Iirc you had to convert this metal bastard

Invictus i think was his name

[pastel rampart]

Yeah, there wasn't any combi-plasma models at all at the time so you just slapped plasma pistols onto whatever.

[tired cairn]

Taking screenshots of textual proof of female custodes like they are the Sasquatch

[tired cairn]

I also love the huge banner in the cramped quarters

[past sphinx]

Castellon Crow keeping the back banner grind alive and I respect it

[pastel rampart]

https://vxtwitter.com/PaulBatchelor/status/1782522639052865556

[jaunty dawn]

gw do plastic blister packs now?

(from a 3rd party store, no packaging image on the gw site)

[junior robin]

think they have done it as long as characters on a small single sprue have been a thing?

[jaunty dawn]

idk I've never seen it for a plastic model is all

I've gotten some with like a plastic insert but it was still a regular box. or one of their generic white boxes

[flat radish]

i'm back and i'm here to cause Tyranid based chaos

[runic swallow]

I love that this tactic is basically just this: https://youtu.be/yKkt_g9Tc7M?si=0jwENfa9PznNRbXY

Also, I love that it reminded me of the intro to Heavy Metal, I should watch it again sometime

…come to think of it I wonder if that might not actually be inspired by this, since some of the founding inspiration for 40k was Heavy Metal Magazine

[runic swallow]

They were usually more common for resin minis, but I remember seeing plastic ones like the Mechanicus Magos

Which I very much remember because I bought one and it had two of the same sprue in it, had to contact GW to get a replacement (which they did by just sending me another kit)

[past sphinx]

Letting me deep strike a bike would be a big ducking meme

[runic swallow]

I swear I remember at least one army being able to do that at some point, but I could be misremembering

[past sphinx]

Raven guard could deepstrike some real wacky shit

Like centurions

[floral herald]

I remember way back in 5e Blood Angels could deep strike land raiders

Which was hilarious

Representing Thunderhawk Transporters just dropping them on low passes

Because Blood Angel armor commanders are very very jealous of their jump-packed equipped brothers

[runic swallow]

That’s what I was thinking of potentially, since I got in just at the tail end of 5e and there was a guy at my FLGS who played Blood Angels

[bold halo]

⬆️ ➡️ ⬇️ ⬇️ ⬇️ eat land raider

[runic swallow]

Also reminds me of those crazy glider-borne or paradropped tanks that have been developed irl

Also gliders are somehow the even crazier method of paradropping than paradropping, it’s getting guys or equipment on the field via tactically crashing

(It is to my knowledge not done anymore due to the absurd casualty ratios, since some things are too crazy even for paratroopers these days)

[bold halo]

kind of sad I missed deep striking land raiders, I played blood angels in 4e and the intermediate white dwarf pdf codex but kind of fell off the game right around the time the actual 5e codex released

[junior robin]

the cowards at GW didnt let grey knights have it now with their teleport assault ability

[tall depot]

https://x.com/ThatSamWinkler/status/1781854685449884098

Sam Winkler (@ThatSamWinkler) on X

I'm fucked up in the lodge with the Mournival smoking that Primarch pack. This Chaos shit ain't nothing to me man. Lit up like a meltagun, navigators fucking up the whole fleet thinking I'm the astronomican. Roboute Guilliman scoured me from history; whole sectors forgot I'm Him.

Twitter · Apr 21, 2024, 1:17 AM

[desert jay]

They've done blister packs since at least... 2018, I wanna say? I remember a CSM HQ being packaged in one

Wait that was 2017 I saw it, b/c that was the same year 8e released and my friend was getting back into it

[pastel rampart]

Since at least 8th ed WHFB, actually.

https://www.warhammer.com/app/resources/catalog/product/920x950/99070201004_WoCChaosLord01.jpg?fm=webp&w=670&h=691

This guy dates back to around then.

[jaunty dawn]

wild

[unreal cosmos]

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeaguesofVotann/comments/1ce3zuq/votann_lore_in_the_custodes_codex/

[past sphinx]

Votann getting lore anywhere but an actual book

poor stunties

[past sphinx]

i have noticed a problem when building these Stodes, every head looks like your dad

no scrungo no like perfected fabio

just like a 40 year old man who works in an office

[soft willow]

Better than "eaten by tyranids"

[uneven ember]

back in my day if you said the word "squats" you got banned from GW's webforum

[soft willow]

Back in my day people owned squat models.

[uneven ember]

wild

[thin ibex]

Electric theme list

The Dominus is cheating a bit. No electric

Not at all competitive, but I think it could actually do a bit of work

A lot rests on fulgurites with the fnp invulnerable and -1 to wound surviving a round or two

Feels like a cool list though

[thin ibex]

And I got another silly one for you guys

Triple death strike

All about slowing enemies and penning them in

To get hit by the big missile

[cinder wraith]

had an idea of a Chaos / Imperial Knight campaign

House Khomentis Lore

so heres my idea

after the horus heresy, a noble of this house falls to chaos and rises alongside the heretics to claim his throne of the great house

and there may be sandworms

https://tenor.com/view/armored-core-armored-core-mech-mecha-gif-2399061995915701050

*not specified metallic or living or daemonic

[upper canopy]

por que no los tres?

[cinder wraith]

?

[upper canopy]

"why not all 3"

[cinder wraith]

https://tenor.com/view/that70s-show-eric-foreman-light-bulb-idea-gif-4680281

[upper canopy]

in fact why not go full hog

"Oops! Shai-Hulud got infected with the Obliterator Virus"

[plucky token]

now that's thinking with portals

[lofty warren]

They dont use the obliterator virus enough

[dense sedge]

What is it?

Is it basically the techno organic virus from xmen?

[lofty warren]

Kinda but it also makes you guns

[runic swallow]

Yeah, it turns you into a hulking Swiss Army Gun

It may or may not have started with Perturabo as patient zero

[uneven ember]

"You have a serious case of Guns. It's incurable."

[pulsar cairn]

old warhammer lore was interesting

half eldar space marine

[remote wharf]

There's also Mutilator who are made of knives but are just mutated by the warp instead of a virus.

[pulsar cairn]

so does it just look like a living mass of knives?

[runic swallow]

And chainsaws and power weapons

Basically it was the alt-kit/stat line of the Obliterator

[uneven ember]

So, I don't like the half-Eldar Ultramarine, personally
Not because of the Lore, just kinda because of vibes.
Half-elves are a whole thing, I know, but I really love how the Eldar are just going "these guys are aliens whose empire was ancient when humans were just working out the concept of 'hit rock with rock for sharp rock,' the fact that they look exactly like pointy-eared humans is pure zany coincidence"

"The hobbits are humans, the dwarves are humans, the ogres are humans. The elves are completely unrelated to humanity in any way and would be mortally offended if anyone ever suggested otherwise."

[pulsar cairn]

I mean that's fair

I was thinking more about how weird that was

It probably had a whole different vibe from today's 40k

[uneven ember]

In a lot of ways, yeah.
The Rogue Trader stuff, to be clear, was before my time but I've had the chance to look at it. More like an RPG than a more conventional wargame in a lot of respects

[dense sedge]

A bunch of cultists infected with it could be cool

[pulsar cairn]

Knife people knife people

[thin ibex]

I'm enjoying the crpg so fast

Far*

For rt

I didn't realize that rts could rule entire sectors pretty much

And did not know one could stand above like all ranks below like a lord Inquisitor

[floral herald]

Iirc a lot of that lore wasn’t really established in RT

[runic swallow]

The space marines were more cops originally

Or it was more part of their schtick

[uneven ember]

Oh yeah, they were still a while away from developing that sort of vibe.
Just that there's some stuff about earlier editions that I like and think we should bring back more, but the "what are these 'elves' you speak of, we're the Eldar" thing is a later development that I like.

[thin ibex]

There was a lot more eyebrow wiggling and knowing looks across the 4th wall in of warhammer I feel

Older warhammer*

[uneven ember]

& the thing about 40K spaceships is that having one basically makes you an interstellar power, while the Writ of Trade is basically the Ron Swanson permit of "I Do What I Want"
Rogue Traders are basically the space-East India Company

[thin ibex]

Iirc they also only have to do what a lord Inquisitor says because of the inherent threat right? Rather than explicitly falling under their purview?

[bright dove]

Welllll

[thin ibex]

Cause rogue traders are effectively allowed to commit what would be considered heresies while doing their thing that petty much no one else can get away with

[bright dove]

It's a toss-up whether a Rogue Trader listens to an inquisitor or not.

Some are powerful/established enough that they can just sorta laugh it off.

Like the rare few who can say "Here's my charter signed by The Emperor himself"

It comes down to if it's worth the trouble or not.

[uneven ember]

Yeah, that's the thing.
Theoretically/legally, an =][=nquisitor outranks everybody because they're acting with the Emperor's authority for the security of the Imperium of Man.
Practically speaking, walking up to a Planetary Governor or the leader of 1000 brainwashed supersoldiers and saying "you're coming with me, I have a blingy badge shaped like the letter I" has a lot of ways to go wrong so Inquisitors need to build up the support to act.

[thin ibex]

I wonder how often space marines interact with rogue traders.

[bright dove]

Not often, but sometimes.

A connected Rogue Trader can say "Oh hey, by the way, there's a particularly good planet here that's got a lot of problems that need to be solved."

But generally, the usual case applies: you don't want to be where the Space Marines are.

[thin ibex]

Yeah I figure it invites "complications"

[uneven ember]

Space Marines and Rogue Traders do both have plenty of cause to be at the fringes of Imperial control.

[thin ibex]

Saying no to a space marine isn't like inherently heretical or whatever right? Just generally a bad idea because unless they're oathbound, space marines generally just do what they want

[bright dove]

Correct.

[uneven ember]

I'm gonna bring up the Forgeworld series on the Badab War again, which I know I do a good bit, but just because I really like the way it works with what a pain trying to coordinate a big Imperial effort is.

[bright dove]

Ciaphas Cain novels also go into multi-Imperial coordinations as well.

Including a case of "Oh, there's traitor marines here, and we will not be able to get any marines here in time."

[thin ibex]

Ciaphas can also hold his ground in a duel against ah traitor marine, which is impressive as hell

He wasn't winning ofc

[bright dove]

Against a World Eater specifically, yeah

[uneven ember]

Because yeah, even a Space Marine Chapter Master doesn't have direct authority over anyone outside of his own Chapter.
But he does have both a position of respect and authority and, y'know, a Chapter of Space Marines at his beck and call, so his words do tend to carry some weight.

[thin ibex]

There's a lot of conferred authority around "fuck around and find out"

[bright dove]

And some Space Marines will make sure you find out

See the Space Wolves.

[uneven ember]

Yeah, exactly.

[thin ibex]

I know some sm chapters actual manage interstellar governments, like sw and um

[bright dove]

Blood Angels do Baal

And then there's the Marine Chapter that routinely forces the Inquisition out of its business, the Dark Angels.

[uneven ember]

The whole Badab thing was that Huron effectively took over the Maelstrom Sector and then started getting embroiled in tax disputes.

[bright dove]

Man.

That'd do it.

The Imperial Tithe is rough.

[thin ibex]

Imperial irs is the final word

[bright dove]

You can say no to an Inquisitor as a Chapter Master.

[thin ibex]

Huron caught on tax Evasion

[bright dove]

You can maybe do it as a Planetary Governor with enough power.

You never say no to the Administratum.

[thin ibex]

I know space marines are actually exempt from the direct authority of the inquisition, but many have standing oaths and obligations that tie them down again. And I know that the hovering threat of being excommunicated is a thing

[lofty warren]

Honestly some kind of radical tax ordos thats gone way off the deep end and extracts taxes from anyone considered an imperial subject (even traitors) without caring about any other factor would be fun

Inquisitorial agents diving into the eye of terror to garnish abbadons income

[uneven ember]

Ok, I love this bit of lore, so bear with me here.
You have the Astral Claws, the Mantis Warriors, and the Lamenters guarding the Maelstrom--the #2 Warp Rift in the galaxy after the EoT. They're collectively referred to as the Maelstrom Warders, with the Claws unofficially in charge as a sorta "first among equals" deal.
After some rebellion on the Claws' homeworld, Badab, they wipe out the civilian administration and effectively take over the governance of the Maelstrom Sector. The Chapter Master, Lugft Huron, overhauls the defense in the sector and has a bunch of big plans to clear out the whole Maelstrom rather than just running defense, up to and including an entire Founding for that specific purpose.

[rocky shale]

Huron Did Nothing Wrong

[floral herald]

The imperium also traditionally gives authority over a multi-part force to the most senior (in terms of time served) high ranking officer which usually means space marines are in charge

[bright dove]

Unless by some miracle a Custodes shows up

[uneven ember]

None of that goes anywhere, so eventually Huron just stops paying taxes outside the sector (and tithing the Claws' geneseed) saying that it's necessary for the security of the Imperium. This pisses off a bunch of noble/merchant houses who are expecting that constant stream of loot from the Maelstrom, who start arguing in the Administratum courts. This takes a long time (because mostly the Administratum doesn't care about some local disputes), and eventually Huron declares that the Maelstrom Sector is his own Imperial protectorate under his authority as Chapter Master, same as the Ultima Sector, and he doesn't owe shit.
But the court cases are ongoing, and the Fire Hawks are against the Claws, possibly because their Chapter Master is mad that Huron got picked over him to lead a big multi-Chapter operation way back and he's still mad butthurt over it. Eventually there's a legal ruling that Badab has to pay up.
Which leads to a whole treasure fleet flying in to collect their tithes, heading right to one of the most fortified regions of militarized space in the IoM, and declaring that they will not stand down for a military checkpoint, they have a note from the Administratum so you need to stand down to me.

[bright dove]

But god help everyone there if a Custodes shows up.

And Huron being Huron does not take this well.

As I said earlier, you do not tell the Administratum no.

[uneven ember]

Yeah but also you do not try to just blow past a military checkpoint, especially in a place actively expecting attack.

[bright dove]

Also true.

[uneven ember]

As presented, it's entirely possible that Huron had no idea until afterward. Just some base commander with standing orders to take out any ship attempting to force its way through.
But since it had escalated to a shooting war, the whole thing snowballed, until they wound up in the biggest intra-Space Marine war since the Heresy.

[bright dove]

Knowing Administratum stuff, they're not subtle about saying who they are, especially when it comes to taxes.

If you open fire on a treasure fleet that openly says "We're here on behalf of your real boss, remember who's actually in charge" and you then proceed to openly fire on them?

Active warzone or not, you have very deliberately chosen a bad decision.

[runic swallow]

Any sort of situation like that is basically a game of chicken

Since both sides know what they’re supposed to do and both know what happens if they do

Especially since both are following orders from their lawful commanders

[bright dove]

Except one lawful commander has a lot higher rank than the other.

[uneven ember]

Yeah, & that is a thing, too.
There's a likely apocryphal story about the US Army where a newly-minted General who thought that his new rank meant that he didn't need to show any paperwork to the private guarding the door.
But the determination was that not manhandling a superior officer would, in this case, be a dereliction of duty.

[bright dove]

I feel it important to state that an important part of the Imperial Tithe is also psykers.

So if Huron was holding out on that, the Administratum was being positively polite.

And while yes, Ultramar nominally does not pay taxes to the Imperium

The Ultramarines are kinda just going everywhere throughout the galaxy to stomp out fires.

Huron is handling one sector and trying to say his authority means he shouldn't pay the Imperium.

In short, he got too short-sighted.

[runic swallow]

But the one who ordered you is your direct in the field commander and the other is from far away and from a different department

These are things that have actually come up in real life and it’s usually messy

[bright dove]

I am also reasonably certain that the Administratum also told Huron himself that they were coming.

[floral herald]

The ultramarines just get away with it because they’re first founding really

And now they’re the regent’s extra-personal goons

[bright dove]

Basically.

"You didn't betray us during the Heresy and reorganized the Legions, you get a pass on this."

[uneven ember]

The eventual Inquisitorial determination was that everyone involved were either traitors or idiots, so both sides wound up purged and their homeworlds collectively punished.
Because the governing philosophy of the IoM is "don't make me come over there."

[bright dove]

The Imperium hates escalations of conflict like that, yeah.

Having to put down traitors means that those forces aren't available to handle other problems.

This would be a fun storyline to transplant over to Lancer as well.

[uneven ember]

I've mentioned this before but I wrote up my BT Marshal's fluff as having tried to jump in on the Badab War on the side of the Warders.
On the basis that his best buddy Lugft was fighting for the rights of the Astartes to do whatever it took against the incursions of the nerds, nobles, and pencil-pushers trying to hold them back.
But he eventually backed down when the High Marshal at the time (p sure this was before Helbrecht) threatened to drag him onto the Eternal Crusader in chains as an oathbreaker.

[bright dove]

That would do it.

But yeah. I can just imagine some corprostate idiot trying to tell a Union Admin fleet that they can't come into a place without a proper check first.

[uneven ember]

Not even because he disagreed as much as "yeah, we do ignore the rules whenever we want, and we don't play Planetary Governor and jump into slapfights about taxes, and we don't get the Inquisition crawling up our asses, I wonder if there might be some kind of connection there you stupid fuck"

[uneven ember]

now that could be pretty cool, I think
I do feel like most Union admirals would be smarter than to go respond to an order to stand down coming from a packed defensive line with "your guns can't stop me, I have a note"

[bright dove]

Most, but not all.

[uneven ember]

ya

[bright dove]

If it's bad enough that Union is sending a group of ships to, say, a HA world.

[uneven ember]

Also, last detail I rellly liked in the Badab War fiction
How when it finally ended, the Inquisition and Administratum really just wanted to declare everyone involved in the rebellion Excommunicate Traitoris and unperson everyone involved
But all the Space Marine loyalists really didn't like the idea so they insisted on the rebel Chapters being judged by a conclave of Space Marines instead, and the other groups kind of had to go along with it because after you've called over a dozen Space Marine Chapters you can't just dismiss them when they stop being convenient.

[pulsar cairn]

kind of weird to think that besides bjorn

the only other heresy veterans are either the Risen

or traitors

[uneven ember]

plus the Primarchs themselves

[pulsar cairn]

yeh

[thin ibex]

i still wish bjorn was ina different dread, but i figure they might have transferred him over the years

as the olden living space marine

[pulsar cairn]

the old one looked cool

[bright dove]

"Let the Lamentors live, it's worse than any punishment we could give them."

[thin ibex]

lol

bjorn in like a custom contemptor or a leviathan would be cool

i wonder if he'll eventually be narratively killed or moved into a redemptor

[pulsar cairn]

if he does die i hope it's doing something big

[thin ibex]

i almost always field him with the helfrost gun

just cause

no one else can

use it

[pulsar cairn]

how does it work?

[thin ibex]

its effectively a fenrisian custom coldcannon

flash freezes targets

pretty deadly

[pulsar cairn]

neat

Btw are the box dreadnoughts any better than the heresy ones?

Or people forgot how to make them?

[thin ibex]

the box ones have less billigerent machine spirits iirc

and are easier to make

the castefferum dred i think its called

the contemptor i think were vaguely higher quality

[pulsar cairn]

Power rangers!

[thin ibex]

the sw didn't like the contemptors cause the legionnaires put in them went berserk way easier

[uneven ember]

hm
were those minis made after the Redemptor?

[thin ibex]

the contemptors? nah

or do you mean those specifically

[uneven ember]

these ones specifically

[thin ibex]

they might be newer ones for horus heresy... but i do not know

[uneven ember]

Because there's a bit of commonality between these & the redemptor, compared to the ol' Waddle Box

[pulsar cairn]

Waddle waddle

[thin ibex]

but contemptors in general have bee naround for a bit

[uneven ember]

yeah, just pondering whether this Contemptor design drew from the Redemptor or vice versa

[jaunty dawn]

I think all the resin bodies on display here are probably mostly contemporary with primaris dreads

they used to be full resin kits that included everything but the weapons but when the real plastic contemptor came out they reduced it to selling just the body 🙃

glad I got the full WB one before then

[thin ibex]

yeah they used to have a lot more weapon options right?

[jaunty dawn]

oh no the weapons are fine

in 40k they're weird

but the new kit has all the weapons across two sprues

the whole heresy 40k stuff is just weird that's all

where the contemptor datasheet from the index and iirc in custodes is based on a monopose kit that was already obsolete and oop by the time 10th came out

[uneven ember]

I'm just pondering on the general design shift toward A Dude and away from The Angriest Refrigerator

[jaunty dawn]

so contemptors are based on the original design for dreadnaught

[thin ibex]

yeah it was "a dude" first, chronololgically iirc

then become "if the copy machine had guns"

[jaunty dawn]

the casket design came later

[thin ibex]

iirc classic dread was also like... much smaller right?

within its lore

[jaunty dawn]

and fwiw I think redemptor follows the casket design much more than a dude design haha

it's just got a bigger chassis around the casket

[thin ibex]

yeah same

it just has elbows

and visible knees

[uneven ember]

yeah tru

also fingers

[jaunty dawn]

I think this was the first dread to have a face

[thin ibex]

tbh i kinda miss the twin hb being worth while

can dreads still mount em?

like classic ones i mean

then agasinst hte onslaught gatlings are pretty sick

just sometimes i like the budda budda budda over the brrrrrrrrt

[upper bluff]

No

You can still have assault cannons though

Maybe there's another dreadnought variant with them but not the classic normal dreadnought

[jaunty dawn]

twin hb was a forge world arm I think

[uneven ember]

& yeah time was everyone had dreadnoughts
but the Guard Dreadnought became the Sentinel, the Eldar Dreadnought became the Wraithlord, the Chaos Dreadnought became the Hellbrute, and the Ork Dreadnought... got to stay the Ork Dreadnought. bit weird tbh

[jaunty dawn]

did sisters dread become penitent engine or were they already both around

[thin ibex]

well the ork dreadnought become the ork Dredd

[jaunty dawn]

mortifiers are kinda revival of sisters being in a bot but they're not happy abt it xP

chaos dreadnought lasted till like 5th ed when the current helbrute design appeared

[uneven ember]

Penitent Engine wasn't introduced until well after the Dreads had gone their separate ways.
I think the Sisters as a whole were, tbh? Don't recall but they didn't have it in their original Codex

[jaunty dawn]

I've definitely seen sisters dreadnought mentioned

space ork dreadnought haha

and that's not even the final form of chaos dread. the ones in space crusade were cool

seeing a lot of references to when ephrael stern was a dreadnought for some reason, still looking for a primary source

[uneven ember]

🤷 wasn't in their '97 Codex

[uneven ember]

this is pretty sweet tho

I feel like the closest they've come to reproducing this style is actually the Knights

[jaunty dawn]

it's kinda warhoundy

[uneven ember]

yeah tru

[jaunty dawn]

but armigers kinda go in that direction too

[desert jay]

It's the Deff Dread now which is definitely a cooler name

[jaunty dawn]

remembered that duckduckgo sometimes just fails to find stuff

there we go!

apaprently it only ever showed up in the sales catalagoue

so they made a model, threw together some stats, but it was never really in the lore or the mainline rules

[desert jay]

Also WRT Helbrutes, even after codex lost Dreads, the Ferrum Infernus Chaos Dread continued on into 8e in the imperial armor books

[jaunty dawn]

oh actually apparently it's not even a unique model it's just a conversion and the part numbers for the kits used to make it

[uneven ember]

huh!
Okay, yeah, cool that does make sense

[jaunty dawn]

it's been telephoned a little bit haha

[desert jay]

Wait... Ephrael Stern???

[jaunty dawn]

YUP!

Idk if it was a random name taken from a book and the comic got it from the same place or if this is just straight up where the comics got it from

[uneven ember]

my guess would be the latter

[floral herald]

Do we know when that catalogue is from?

[uneven ember]

not based on anything specific, just on GW's love for shout-outs and references
(which yeah could also explain the former, but)

[floral herald]

Daemonifuge was 1999

[jaunty dawn]

ohhh

um

best guess I saw was around when 3rd edition vehicle building rules came out?

so possibly later actually?

around 2000

[floral herald]

Huh that’s pretty close then

[desert jay]

WD 250 and 251 were Oct and Nov 2000

[uneven ember]

I think White Dwarf was full color by 2000

[floral herald]

My initial reaction was that it was like an “after the comic” thing but I had no good reason for it

[desert jay]

WD 250/251 were the vehicle design rules AFAICT, but that pic above is from a mail-order newsletter that likely coincided

[jaunty dawn]

honestly I think it's more plausible that someone converted it based on a what if scenario after reading the comic yeah

less lead time

which is interesting cause thats not how it gets passed down the grapevine

[desert jay]

Yeah it might have been made in like... after one of her two deaths but before she was reborn

You know how comics do cliffhangers

[jaunty dawn]

the original run of daemonifuge in warhammer monthly seems to have ended january 1999

the first volume anyway

what would become it

just realised the fact that this is from an american catalogue changes where I should be looking oops

[pastel rampart]

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=273425 The Demilune in that image was apparently a long Deldar transport

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/4/23/29255_sm-Breotan, Dark Eldar, Raider, Shadow.jpg

[uneven ember]

long raider is long

but yeah, the Sisters didn't have a Dreadnought or Dreadnought-equivalent in their 2nd ed codex
They got the Penitent Engine in 3rd, which was the edition where they got lumped in with the Ordo Hereticus for the army list.

[jaunty dawn]

mm

makes sense

[uneven ember]

Nothing to prove this but I feel like it was an expansion on the concept of the Arco-flagellents, which had been introduced in the Inquisitor game.

[jaunty dawn]

that would make sense yeah

filling out the ministorium sub-faction

[uneven ember]

ya

just a thought, i also feel like the original 40K sculpts for arco-flagellants were doing their best to deal with a whole design based around "since I'm making a minature that could be used to beat someone to death, I can really put in all those gross little Blanchian details in that I could never put in a 28mm figure"
& then they get the job of shrinking it down to 28mm

[solemn gull]

I regret never being able to play Inquisitor