Warhammer and Such

[naive abyss]

sassy abby

[ebon forge]

Nurgling Lord
The biggiest of the little shits

[thin ibex]

Ok I can sort of see this, also if he's not necessarily like... in charge of security or if those power knuckles offer other utility, list blasting away debris or opening up paths. Does he also have a pistol or something?

[floral herald]

This is also sort of true for Legionaries

[ebon forge]

ye he has pestol

[bright dove]

Nurgling Lord atop a suit of armor is now what I want for my next Lord.

[naive abyss]

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/Jv0rlR

[floral herald]

Though there's enough excess bitz to make solid counts-as for the specialists who appear in 40k

[naive abyss]

?

[thin ibex]

wouldn't it be weird for salvagers to be the new warriors box since it comes with a jetpack dude? Figured we'd be getting jetpack hearthkyn too, or maybe a seperate [something]kin unit

[naive abyss]

we likely are

[ebon forge]

Or replace one of your Death Guard helmets with a Nurgling head
Earthworm Jim' it

[naive abyss]

but the laser minigun has been added as an option for warriors

[thin ibex]

ah yeah true

its also sick

[naive abyss]

which makes it exist in this weird interum spot

i love the minigun

just i feel that weird like middle ground the teams in is why at least were getting rumors of another lov team

[pastel rampart]

Back when I started 40k a dude I used to game with did exactly that with a terminator. lil' grubbly nurgling piloting the terminator via little stickshift controls where the helmet used to be.

[soft willow]

It's cool but probably not optimal for Votann at the moment.

[naive abyss]

cuz lov have been consistently selling well and been popular i feel so they want to give them a more distinct kill team

[thin ibex]

maybe the jetpack will be a unit that just incorporates in, but isn't very useful, so when fielded people don't include it

[naive abyss]

i think thats actually what it is atm

but were also likely getting a proper jump unit in the second wave

id be utterly shocked if we werent

[thin ibex]

I think the thing i dislike about the votann heavy weapon options at least for the moment, is that they're all the same range. I'm like 99% sure that wont stay that way upon LoV dex released

[pulsar cairn]

wait

there's more

[soft willow]

Jump axes are what everyone thinks is coming for sure.

[thin ibex]

for the warriros i mean

[naive abyss]

allot of that is they just oveboarding on lov nerfs tbh

[thin ibex]

jump axes sound fun

yeah, I'm pretty sure on official dex release we'll get some variety on ranges

[naive abyss]

cuz gw apparently listens to community backlash for new xenos factions

[thin ibex]

Incidentally, LoV are strong rn on the back of being cheap and having a mondo strong faction power

[floral herald]

I think the weapon ranges were to enforce a short range non-gunline playstyle for them but its kind of an awkward way to do it

[soft willow]

On the back of Einhyr being terrifying fuckers.

[naive abyss]

ignore how good guard were after that or eldar at start at 10th

[ebon forge]

that's awesome!

[thin ibex]

but i hope that set up changes with more interesting unit and rules interactions rather than just being dirt cheap with an easiyl accessible +1 to wound

[naive abyss]

sorry im still a bit miffed with all the shit with lov in the period leading up to tenth and then tenth itself

[thin ibex]

i think it was worth being miffed about, especially in light of the aeldari stuff

[soft willow]

Still the only codex to be nerfed before it came out.

[naive abyss]

like they went from a faction with one of the fluffiest and fun mechanics to imo one of the most boring faction mechanics atm imo

[floral herald]

The Deathwatch Index also got nerfed super hard before release of 10e

[naive abyss]

like tbh i still feel the outrage was so loud cuz it was a new xenos faction

[thin ibex]

i think so too

[soft willow]

I said Codex.

[naive abyss]

and some people were just petulantly piling on due not liking the faction or cuz they werent "grimdark" enough

[thin ibex]

though i also think some nerfs were warranted, but also that aeldari deserved more oversight and index control on the 10th flip.

[floral herald]

I don't really draw a strong distinction there 🤷

[soft willow]

This and going from BS 3 to BS 4 really hurt.

[thin ibex]

like heaping nerfs on the dorfs? Nah. Some nerfs? Probably were deserved.

[naive abyss]

the latter being a complaint that still crops up and that at this point i get exhausted by

[soft willow]

A fair read sure, and edition change was the time for it.

[thin ibex]

we went through the same circus with the tau tbh, and we still hear about it now; i feel you

[naive abyss]

to be clear i recognize and agree lov needed to be tuned down

[pulsar cairn]

heh

he said turned down

[naive abyss]

my issue was mostly that it got to the point that my enthusiasm for finally getting space dorfs again was getting marred by just overwhelming often bad vibes screeching over them

[thin ibex]

People today will still insist Tau are hopeful and good and that grimdark was "injected" into them; but i tend to disagree, that grimdark has always been there; its just that their theming is often tied into that veneer of the "greater good"

[floral herald]

I think Leagues released in the sort of unenviable position of being not only super competitively strong but also kind of OP in casual play

[naive abyss]

lov are grim just the people whinging about it think if you arent covered in cathedrals and skulls its not grim tbh

[floral herald]

Cause a lot of tournament OP is like "well there's these 2 horrifying skew lists but if you just run a normal looking army..."

[thin ibex]

also, wearing white armor im sure was a reason for people to presume they weren't grim or dark

[floral herald]

But the release lov tournament lists were pretty much just the normal looking army

[naive abyss]

i still maintain that the backlash was as hard as it was to lov due to them being new and xenos

[floral herald]

I actually have a sort of conspiracy theory about Tau backlash

Someone posted an old interview with the main GW guy designing them and it was really insightful

[naive abyss]

like the issues with balance aggravated it and they did need to be toned down but like allot of it was heavily couched in people just bitching about the faction existing just from a aesthetic/fluff angles

[thin ibex]

oh any links?

[naive abyss]

also like other factions had come out just as busted if not more busted in some ways without even a third of the backlash

[floral herald]

That the Tau were pretty heavily based on NATO with the emphasis on mobile forces, causalities as a measure of success, air support, and using euphimistic "bloodless" names for formations

[ebon forge]

That's REALLY interesting, huh

[thin ibex]

I think also the community was just very reactively opposed to a new thing when their "thing" hadn't been updated, touched, or made cooler or whatever.

[floral herald]

And the Tau were initially released in 2001

[ebon forge]

Eldar fans in a nutshell

[floral herald]

I think the Tau faced really heavy backlash on release because they were the sole cogent social criticism faction in 40k at the time

[ebon forge]

Or "Insert obscure Space Marine Chapter"

[floral herald]

And the GWOT had just started

[thin ibex]

gwot?

[floral herald]

Since they were, in the designers words pretty based on the us un Desert Storm 1991

Global War on Terror

[thin ibex]

ohh ok

[floral herald]

So in the US at least it was basically... vaguely patriotic to hate on the Tau because they were holding up a mirror to the US

[thin ibex]

that kind of makes sense, and its not a perspective ive seen before

[floral herald]

I'll see if I can find the interview

[tired cairn]

So people were like, subconsciously aware of this but none of the criticisms directly acknowledged this?

[floral herald]

I read it like a week ago and was like "whoaaa"

[tired cairn]

(though I guess this is why you call it a conspiracy theory lol)

[thin ibex]

(Incidentally, I liked a lot of those like NATO vibes in the Tau militarily/organizationally. I somewhat dislike the move away from that narratively)

[naive abyss]

tbh i feel its more the residual anti communism culture and people seeing the vaguely asianic coded aliesn with the tag line "Greater good" then ceasing to read anything else and just screaming about communists lol

which is in its own way a form of US "patriotism"

[pastel rampart]

Mixed in with all this was the growing popularity of anime and the knee-jerk backlash of that. "It's too Macross/Gundam" was a complaint I saw plenty enough at the time.

Years before "weeb" became a catch-all term.

[naive abyss]

yeah allot of it also landed in the anti-anime/japan zeitgeist too

[floral herald]

Found it!

https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/b3pc01/qa_with_gav_thorpe/

BIFFORD: In the earlier editions, the Tau were a very likable race with no significant grimdark elements, but over time Games Workshop made them more sinister, with hints that they do things like mind control, or mass sterilizations, or use biological weapons to cleanse worlds for the benefit of Tau settlers. What do you have to say about this? What prompted these changes? How do you feel about them? Where does Games Workshop plan to go with the Tau?

THORPE: This is Warhammer 40,000 - nobody is as shiny as they first seem! As a bit of an analog for late 20th century / early 21st century western interventionist culture I've always assumed that the Greater Good is ultimately for the benefit of the T'au and if others get something out of that's just a bonus. The fact that they are even willing to work with other species is pretty unique and progressive among the factions of 40K, rather than rampant genodical, xenophobic armies. The thing about the Great Good is that it is, in the long term, as inflexible and authoritarian as the Imperial Creed or the all-consuming Tyranids. It still comes down to the Greater Good or Death (tm). I've tried not to make it too sinister being within the T'au sphere, though in the original Apocalypse book I introduced a variety of NATO-style innocuous three-letter-acronym formations, like Mobilised Hunter cadre, Dispersed Retaliation Cadre and Forward Commitment Contingent. None of them say 'battle' or 'war'... I can imagine the news back home is quite a sanitised version of the reality - like when we watched videos of 'smart' bombs and gun cameras blowing up stuff in Iraq but were totally unaware of what was really happening on the ground.

[thin ibex]

its a bit funny that he even mentions that anime ideas have been getting incorporated into the eldar for a while before the tau

[ebon forge]

Thank u

[floral herald]

Yeah I think that was also a thing but I guess I'm conjecturing that it was a sort of cover for how the Tau were a sort of "uncomfortably real" kind of evil

Broke: Tau are communists
Woke: Tau are Harrison Armory

[ebon forge]

HAH

Also yeah, that's why if the Ethereal cast really is using psychic mind control kinda defeats the porpuse of the faction

Because the 'evil' is cultural and social

[thin ibex]

kinda glad to be a bit vindicated in the grim and dark always being there

[floral herald]

Yeah you super are

[naive abyss]

thats the thing with allot of the old tau memes

most are just not accurate and half of them apply more to eldar

like imo the tau arent weebs really

theyve always read as more mainland asia to me imo

[floral herald]

The Tau are just more subtle than a giant armored fascist stamping on a human face forever with a boot which says "HATE DIFFERENCE"

[naive abyss]

meanwhile the eldar are literal communists with dojos and shuriken guns lol

they even had samurai style banners

which i always forget the name of

[thin ibex]

honestly, just that sentence lol

[runic swallow]

Fuck, now I understand the marker lights a lot more, they’re laser designators for JDAMS filtered through 40k

[thin ibex]

"They have dojos and shuriken guns"

[runic swallow]

Like, for their origin

[thin ibex]

really hits the nail on the head

[naive abyss]

yehp

[upper canopy]

The Tau have japanese aesthetic but nothing written about them is Japanese really

[naive abyss]

sashimonos

thats the name

like eldar literally use sashimonos

tbh idk what about tau is japanese aesthetic really to me imo

beyond maybe the suits being vaguely gundam adjacent in aesthetics

[thin ibex]

yeah, a lot of tau reads to me as like dynastic imperial china overtones

[upper canopy]

Mecha and Fire Warriors are explicitly designed after Ashigaru

[thin ibex]

mildly tangential, but it saddens me that building a "list that fits in a central transport/base" for the tau means rolling a 3k point army with a manta

im not sure the manta can even be full

[ebon forge]

Their mechs looks like anime mech, that's it

[floral herald]

the 4 elements +a 5th is Japanese but its also Greek so that's kind of a weird thing to focus on

[thin ibex]

well, tau infantry armor evokes japanese lammelar layers iirc

[upper canopy]

Yes

[ebon forge]

And they have "japanese " accent on the DoW games

[upper canopy]

They're based on Ashigaru

[ebon forge]

Yeah they have literal katanas in some arts too, even if they are just ritualistic

[upper canopy]

Including far sight

Having a giant katana

[ebon forge]

true

[floral herald]

The greater good also looks kind of like fortune cookie Confucianism if you squint

[thin ibex]

i figured the elemental thing was a more a reference to old chinese thoughts on the base elements that make up the physical and spiritual tbh, rather than greek

[ebon forge]

Yeah because the 'four elements' is not a thing in asian culture, they have metal and wood as the 'basic elements' too

[floral herald]

No the elements are wrong for it to be the Chinese traditional ones

[ebon forge]

The four elements is more of an european alchemy thing

[floral herald]

It would maybe have been neat if they did do a metal and wood caste though

[thin ibex]

well, i mean inspired by, rather than directly base don

but thats fair

also

[floral herald]

Yeah the Tau's elementalism is super european

[thin ibex]

im guessing it comes from old euro thoughts regarding alchemy?

[pastel rampart]

That was what I was alluding to, hah.

[ebon forge]

• Avatar (the cartoon) helped with that notion too

[ebon forge]

Yeah! Which I honestly super dig, since you can attribute the 4 major states of mater to the 4 elements
Air (gas) Water (liquid) earth (solid) fire (plasma)

[thin ibex]

tbh this is my ignorance speaking, but id honestly presumed avatar the cartoon was also inspired by chinese elementalism but simplified -_-

[ebon forge]

I have no doubt about that

[floral herald]

And the 4 elements were also applied to people via the 4 temperments

You can vaguely trace the castes to like Fire Cast=Choleric, Earth Caste=Melancholic, Air Caste=Sanguine, Water Caste=Phlegmatic I think

Oh whoops, I mixed up the elemental associations for air and water

[ebon forge]

oh

[thin ibex]

Man I know they still aren't points efficient

[pulsar holly]

So the Blood Ravens?

[thin ibex]

But knowing that hover fliers can be in the board turn one

Really makes me want to make some stormraven lists

Space Marines feel like they'd like air support

[untold swallow]

I... no?

[pulsar holly]

Blood Ravens are like the loyalist Chapter with a lot of Pyskers ._.

[untold swallow]

fair, sorry

[ebon forge]

No, to the eye of terror you go

[thin ibex]

You know Cyan, coming back to that interview, I also like Gav's view on how the commitment of even a single squad of marines was a meaningful commitment of force

Also, a storm raven able to carry a 5 man unit of assault intercessors, a 5 man unit of intercessors, 2 characters, and a support dreadnought just delights me

[unreal cosmos]

NATO T'au is a great revelation to me, and fits my custom Sept pretty nicely

[jaunty dawn]

I think tau are like, a pretty important aspect of the setting if you want it to be an effective critique/satire of fascism

I don't 40k has really ever been a shining example of that but yeah

it's kinda going like "fixing these superficial elements of the imperium doesn't actually make things better overall"

going from purging the xenos to economically sucking the xenos dry for your own ends

[untold swallow]

I'm going to do a stupid thing

And disallow my chapter from using terminators due to them having requirements none have met yet because as a chapter they're too new

[jaunty dawn]

in 4e that was one of the chapter tactic downsides

(you got two positives and a negative)

[untold swallow]

oh interesting

This is also partially cuz like

I feel terminators look kinda dumb imo

[wintry mist]

I love termies

[thin ibex]

Ah but rhi, what about Gravis lads?

[rocky shale]

Could just play them as mechanically thousand sons?

[wintry mist]

I had an idea for making a cursed founding chapter that was founded out necessity. Their company got left behind with basically the necessary equipment and tech priests for their founding chapter to go "we cant really come back for you, you might be stuck there." so they went and made a new chapter

their curse is that they haven't been in contact with the Imperium in... a long ass time

[thin ibex]

Also boom. It's sick as hell to me that each storm raven can be a self contained combat element with both melee and ranged

[untold swallow]

That would be very funny

considering they are secretly made of the geneseed of Magnus

while officially a successor chapter to the Salamanders

[rocky shale]

Tsons have great flamers and are heavily incentivized to bring a million psykers

Honestly the biggest argument against is that if you don't want to bring terminators you're nerfing yourself pretty hard

A 10-brick of Scarab Occult terminators is so gross

[thin ibex]

the real question to ask is if sorcery points as a mechanic are something you feel reflects your chapter

[untold swallow]

looking at the list I'm honestly not feelin it

[thin ibex]

itd aslo be a bit weird to exclusde yourself from using the big warp beast thing

as its one of their stronger monsters

mutalith vortex beast i think it is

[rocky shale]

Yeah the sorcery points are the psyker-armyest thing in the game right now

But yeah no MVB is also rough

The list would mostly be rubric spam which isn't bad just bland

[untold swallow]

I think the best thing is gonna remain doing totally not blood angels

and just have the chapter master be Mephiston stats-wise

[thin ibex]

i think as far as factions with established psyker named characters

your other choices are ultramarines

space wolves

and blood angels?

[untold swallow]

space wolves may actually have the like

vibes

I want

Cuz these are also a hunter faction

That scrimshaws bones and shit

[thin ibex]

biggest problem is their named boyo is a terminator 😛

[untold swallow]

God damn it

[thin ibex]

white scars would be great if they had a named psyker you could use

[untold swallow]

wait

Can you make an army using multiple chapters?

[thin ibex]

sometimes, depending on detachment and character pick

for example taking gabriel seth will exclude all other characters

oh dark angels also have a named psyker

here's njall stormcaller https://wahapedia.ru/wh40k10ed/factions/space-wolves/Njal-Stormcaller

[rocky shale]

Extremely non-heretical salamanders (980 points)

Thousand Sons
Incursion (1000 points)
Cult of Magic

CHARACTERS

Ahriman (130 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Black Staff of Ahriman
1x Inferno bolt pistol
1x Psychic Stalk

Exalted Sorcerer (120 points)
• 1x Astral Blast
1x Force weapon
1x Prosperine khopesh
1x Warpflame pistol
• Enhancement: Umbralefic Crystal

BATTLELINE

Rubric Marines (210 points)
• 1x Aspiring Sorcerer
• 1x Force weapon
1x Warpflame pistol
1x Warpsmite
• 9x Rubric Marine
• 9x Close combat weapon
1x Icon of Flame
1x Soulreaper cannon
8x Warpflamer

Rubric Marines (210 points)
• 1x Aspiring Sorcerer
• 1x Force weapon
1x Warpflame pistol
1x Warpsmite
• 9x Rubric Marine
• 9x Close combat weapon
1x Icon of Flame
1x Soulreaper cannon
8x Warpflamer

Rubric Marines (105 points)
• 1x Aspiring Sorcerer
• 1x Force weapon
1x Warpflame pistol
1x Warpsmite
• 4x Rubric Marine
• 4x Close combat weapon
1x Icon of Flame
1x Soulreaper cannon
3x Warpflamer

DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

Thousand Sons Rhino (75 points)
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Havoc launcher
1x Inferno combi-bolter
1x Inferno combi-bolter

OTHER DATASHEETS

Thousand Sons Predator Annihilator (130 points)
• 1x Armoured tracks
1x Havoc launcher
1x Inferno combi-bolter
2x Lascannon
1x Predator twin lascannon

Nothing to see here, inquisitor

[wintry mist]

psyker termies go so hard

giant big man with giant weapons also being magic????

awesome

[untold swallow]

Fucking

Murderfang

That's a Space Wolf

Oh jesus that's a dreadnought

pffffff

[rocky shale]

I love tsons mechanically but the big head pieces are ridiculous and impossible to paint

[untold swallow]

I am glad that you can mix and match the loyalist chapters to some extent for homebrewing

[thin ibex]

pretty good one too!

only one job, killing things

[dense sedge]

I wish tsons got their own psychic dread

[upper canopy]

I mean really all you can't do is mix multiple chapter-specific units together

on the tabletop

you can have them in your army though and just change whatever you field whenever you want

[untold swallow]

In what sense?

like I can't have Mephiston and Kor'sarro on the field at the same time?

[upper canopy]

Yeah

Well

[untold swallow]

Shite

[upper canopy]

I think Kor'sarro at least

So basically the way armies work now is that you have themed detatchments

But you can only have one < FACTION > Keyword at a time

So if you pick, like, Marneus Calgar

you now have the ULTRAMARINES keyword for your army

[untold swallow]

So no units or heroes with other keywords?

[south axle]

No more Space Marine War council D:

[upper canopy]

Yeah

[untold swallow]

So how can one mix together chapters?

Since mechanically as far as I can tell from how it's being explained, you can't

[south axle]

You kinda can in Deathwatch

[upper canopy]

No you can't

Basically it doesn't matter what you paint, you can have each individual marine be from a seperate chapter

All that matters is that you have the same CHAPTER keyword for your characters/heroes/units

And then you can swap your detatchment ability and strategems out whenever you wanted no matter what you were playing

So the Salamanders could use the BA detatchment and rules and units if they wanted to, even if they're normally using the Gladius Task Force generic one

[thin ibex]

looking at crusade rules for space marines, looke like there's a real reason to take company heroes

[untold swallow]

Mechanically speaking

It wouldn't be very effective to make tyranids worse at battle-shock tests right?

[thin ibex]

mmm, if they're not in synapse, they fail battleshock tests like anyone else; when in synapse they get to roll an extra die and keep the better 2 iirc; so a -1 would be less effective, but not immaterial

its not like earlier editions where they effectively didn't interact with battle shock/morale

[untold swallow]

I decided to make my phobos librarian lead infiltrators instead

[thin ibex]

i like it, means they can do a lot of backline or sideline shenanigans and the enemy can neither shoot them or drop near them

[untold swallow]

Bladeguards are gonna be led by a Judiciar

and I need to figure out who's leading the Sternguards

[thin ibex]

judiciars just look so sick

i take any excuse to include them

[untold swallow]

She's the chapter champ

[thin ibex]

iirc a lieutenant is a friendly addition to sternguard, as it gives them lethal hits

alternatively a librarian would give them an invulnerable save

[untold swallow]

"BY MY SWORD, THE DRAKES DO WAR"

[thin ibex]

would be a bit funny to bite into the judiciar lore and have the chapter champ take a vow of silence

[untold swallow]

That would be cool actually

[thin ibex]

(judiciars are like chaplains in training who don't talk)

"preaching with their deeds rather then their voices"

their other role is to enforce chapter rules on their own members, like internal affairs or something i guess

[untold swallow]

I read some of the lore I just forgot the silence bit lol

[jaunty dawn]

meant to send this at the time but got turbo distracted haha

then like as a major drawback

it meant you either got two from the same category or were halfway from one each of two categories

[bright dove]

Ah, reminds me of the custom Guard stuff that used to exist.

[jaunty dawn]

guard got wild

[bright dove]

Boy did it.

You could make some real jank shit.

[jaunty dawn]

5 options from like a 2 page spread of stuff

some of it was buying back access to units you lost if you went for doctrines but still

and then some of the canon regiments just got to have more of the options in exchange for it being a fixed loadout

cadians got 7

[bright dove]

Yup

I also do not miss the days of conscript platoons.

The Wall of Guns was real.

[brittle salmon]

Hahaha

The 50 man squads

[naive abyss]

you know this is vaguely making me ponder if you are sorta doing a DA sucessor that focuses on their old role as monster hunters lol

on another note vahl looks kick ass with that one helmet from the exorcist kit lol

[jaunty dawn]

oh nice

[naive abyss]

like it fits her vibe and station so well

[jaunty dawn]

it's a great helmet ye

[naive abyss]

its still wild to me the exorcist got the single most balling helmet in the sob range lol

i get why cuz its arguably their most unique vehicle but still

[jaunty dawn]

the exorcist is so awesome

I kinda want another one

thinking about like 6 rhino chassis in one army though just makes me wish for a slightly bigger tank

but also repressors pls

but like a rogal dorn sized thing with a big flamer or big melta or big bolter

cathedral on wheels

alt build as a heavy transport with pews for the occupants???

sisters can't have 20 lady squads anymore though :T

come to think of it we have arbites now so a sororitas/agents transport feels doable

[untold swallow]

I considered it but no they’re Salamanders

Officially

[pulsar holly]

Kinda find it funny that so far all the tables I’ve seen looking for players for Imperium Maledictum seem to all be using Inquisition or Rogue Trader patrons

[jaunty dawn]

we had an administratum patron

he was on necromunda and he was embezzling funds and equipment to our group so he could assassinate nobles cause he just hated dealing with them

[pulsar holly]

that sounds like fun to me

[naive abyss]

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeaguesofVotann/comments/192tfcb/talons_of_the_ancestors_because_killteam_deserves/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

[floral herald]

Oh that's an interesting way to do it

[wintry mist]

Those are the easiest to make interesting patrons

[untold swallow]

I have successfully balanced the priorities of flavor and viability I think

I wiiiiiiish the Salamanders had a named psyker

[long void]

that's space to name your own!

[untold swallow]

Oh I mean as a rules character

Cuz I could just stat out my chapter master as a terminator librarian

But that feels like it has less

Gravitas

[long void]

but it can have personal gravitas

[upper canopy]

Yeah honestly

Pick your dude, give him an enhancement, and go to town

[long void]

back in early 2000s, characters were like overcosted pre-builts from the options in the rulebook

[jaunty dawn]

sometimes named characters just have cooler rules than enhancements

its okay to aknowledge that haha

especially with how flavourful the current rules for the salamander characters are

[untold swallow]

Fair

[jaunty dawn]

its even worse with some factions where named characters are units that literally don't exist otherwise

like shadowsunn for a stealth suit hq or morven vahl for a paragon warsuit leader

[upper canopy]

Well with those factions it's not like you give up anything to use your own version

[uneven ember]

40K should be about making up little dudes and throwing them into a setting so stupid big that whatever happens you will not be missed, not picking from a list of dudes who all know each other.

[jaunty dawn]

ofc not

I am not arguing that you shouldn't use named character rules for whatever you want, rather I'm pointing out that there are very good reasons to do so

[untold swallow]

yeah

[jaunty dawn]

and it's an age old tradition in the hobby xP

[untold swallow]

I have no way to really have a flaming sword librarian without

playing mephiston

[uneven ember]

Oh I'm just having one of my little "yells at cloud" "back then nickels had pictures of bees on them, 'give me five bees for a quarter' we'd say" moments >_>

[untold swallow]

I blame talus for making me want another flaming sword psyker marine

I think I'm gonna stop trying to build a list for these guys lmao

[long void]

I suppose with the ruleset as it is, you can't just file off the "Blood Angels" tag from Mephiston and replace it with "Salamanders".

Unless this is casual gaming.

Heck, i remember the rulebooks used to label every named character with the statement: "ask your opponents for permission to bring this character into the game"

who'd say no anyway?

[pastel rampart]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/596197650332778498/1194489509409194065/RPReplay_Final1696598243.mov?ex=65b08a0b&is=659e150b&hm=ef0c4279718c4e569c572b1567c6012880f7d7d6625b95b7ddc875aba393d82a&

[uneven ember]

Kind of the opposite, but
One of my favorite little moments in All-Guardsmen Party was when the Guardsmen wound up being the topic of argument between a pair of Space Marines, except they didn't have their external speakers on & were just voxcasting each other
So the Guardsmen have to just stand there while the Astartes animatedly gesticulate and occasionally point at them, and you know they're arguing about you, but you have no idea what they're saying

[thin ibex]

I really wave to mess around with more stormraven or aircraft born marines now

As I understand how hover works

Like... blood claw raiding parties out of stormeolves!

Competitive? Not even a little

An excuse to bring more helfrost? Absolutely

[untold swallow]

random, but what do we know about the abilities of the sisters of silence?

Is their ability to nullify psionics similar to the Shadow in the Warp?

[brittle salmon]

No

They're all blanks

The Shadow of the Warp is basically...an overwhelming blanket, a psychic poison

The Nid's latent warp connection smothering everything else

Blanks are a literal void

[untold swallow]

all right, good to know the difference

So

I looked at the grey knight list

On a lark

And I fucking hate how well it fits my army concept

cuz I don't wanna play, even mechanically, the gary stu marines lmao

[upper canopy]

All Marines are Gary Stus and you are flouting basically all lore considerations already anyhow.

There's no reason not to if you think it fits mechanically.

[untold swallow]

fairs

[floral herald]

GK are also basically just a capable specialist formation

[onyx elm]

I'm excited for the upcoming Aldari expansion for W&G.

[untold swallow]

They also didn't fit as well as I thought, not every ivory drake is a psyker

[ebon forge]

I love this

[floral herald]

https://vxtwitter.com/WolfdawgArt/status/1744871314274255256?s=20

[upper canopy]

Can opener

[ebon forge]

Brain transplant tool
How you might ask?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ5wuIobkyk
Like this, boom

[cinder wraith]

space marines when they get hit in the head (its just 1 wound)

[ebon forge]

They will be fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine
Specially if they are a Black Templar -runs

[unreal cosmos]

That's why so many of them have tonsures.

[ebon forge]

PPFF

[pulsar cairn]

what's a tonsure

[ebon forge]

cleric shaved head

`‘How was your first battle, sir?’

Malcharion had already answered this question several times. Upon his own return to the Covenant, visitors from several squads came to pay their respects and speak about the surface conflict.

‘Glorious, brother. The splash of blood against my armour… The exaltation of ending a legion of lives with cannon and fist… It will be a great triumph when we take this world in our father’s name.’

Talos smiled. Barely.

‘Now tell me the truth.’

The servitors attending Malcharion paused momentarily as the Dreadnought made a gear-shifting grind of a sound.

‘Joyless. Passionless. Lifeless.’`

If Ultramarines have UltraDepression, what NightLords have?

[pulsar cairn]

would the ordo redactus try to kill me if i showed up with a cow?

i imagine someone would be angry about that

[naive abyss]

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerFantasy/s/akAcd0jgEy

Ngl I know that why fillers exist kinda sucks but I can't help but kinda love the idea of little dioramas in units

[pastel rampart]

"Don't talk to me or my son or my son ever again."

[pastel rampart]

https://vxtwitter.com/PaintMiniature/status/1744841967685521628

[naive abyss]

Fun

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeaguesofVotann/s/dFyqkldC0z

[ebon forge]

ok 👏
Does anyone have a good youtube video that explains the NightLords omnibus?

Because I kinda sick of the Night Lords atm, I am more forcing myself to read the book because "It's one of the best 40k ones" and so many hype it up

[naive abyss]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ImaginaryWarhammer/s/3OyusqB4kc

[tired cairn]

Good news for them: they will just be upscaled

[thin ibex]

What's the primary role for dark reapers atm?

Anti elite long range shooting?

[floral herald]

I think so

[untold swallow]

Ivory Drakes generic list

The Ancient leads the Tac Squad, Gravis Cap the Intercessors, Judiciar the Bladeguards, the Librarian the Infernus, the Phobos Librarian with Forged in Battle leads the Eliminators, and the normal Phobos Librarian leads the Infiltrators

[thin ibex]

interesting pick for the tac marines, wanted to present a mix of firstborn/primaris?

[thin ibex]

i think something that occurs to me that conflicts me with stormravens

they have the dread carry capacity

which makes sense if a dread if a normal close infantry support element

but they arent

there are like 2 in a normal chapter

company

so that reserved slot on a airborne transport and support vehicle seems a bit odd when at almost all times, they won't be occupied

might be cool to be able to put invictors in the slot

which seem WAY less restricted than dreadnoughts

if if there was a reserved slot for like... a stormspeeder or invader ATV

that might be cool too

invictors being a close infantry support walker appeals to me for some reason too

[jaunty dawn]

idk if stormravens would outnumber dreads really

since lore wise it's like

a new thing

but yeah I think realistically I think the magna grapple would be able to handle other stuff

and like if you imagine one in scale with a redemptor chassis especially

I think blood angels have a decent amount of dreads too. like btwn having 3 unique variants lol

so it's possible its primary purpose is dropping dreadnoughts into the fray

like a thunderhawk can carry dreads but it needs to land to offload

cause they have to walk out

[bright dove]

Holding one of the rhino patterns by the tail end and then dropping it from the sky "facefirst"

[thin ibex]

this saddens me because they can't on the rules in 10th iirc but i know they can narratively

just infantry and mounted iirc

[upper canopy]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/975559882197577821/1194576541754073199/418873864_10229106001732748_8664077982899134845_n.png?ex=65b0db19&is=659e6619&hm=e9272708ce902b1e56e8b693c9c7c52bdb3f687af2f8b630538a36864c8e83a4&

This is the funniest fucking warhammer thing I've ever seen

[thin ibex]

ok but

i initially thought thats how it would be

im still prolly just gonna play with what i got

without a LOT of change

but im not doing the WYSIWYG thing

[untold swallow]

more a flexible advance force, since both the special weapons marines wield flamers

[thin ibex]

ahh i see

[untold swallow]

As does the sergeant

[thin ibex]

i forget what their special rule is, i just know they're often seen as less efficient than intercessors

but i do like the means to access special weapons personally

ah i know, its because you have to take 10 i think

is the deal breaker for more competetive players

[bright dove]

Oh look, it's how I played.

Funny thing, this method is also cost efficient.

[thin ibex]

turns out if your army is reasonably balanced

you can do that

[bright dove]

Yup!

It's a blast to do over in Age of Sigmar.

[untold swallow]

you can split them in two squads on deployment

also the special weapons

[thin ibex]

oh im aware

i just know that they're effectively never taken on the competetive scene

for whatever reason

[upper canopy]

Generalist units not wanted in competitive

[bright dove]

For competitive, it's better to have the exact answer for the common big problems, yeah.

[untold swallow]

I sense there are some big problems with answers I lack in that list lol

[thin ibex]

i think they lose out to intecessors because of sticky objectives, and they lose to heavy intercessors cause they are much harder to remove with incidental shooting

and neither are taken in great volume

[untold swallow]

You know what

Gonna replace em with an Assault Intercessor Squad

Power Swords & Heavy Flamers

[thin ibex]

though i think- lol

i was thinking to myself

access to grav guns on battle line OC2 units isn't terrible

anti vehicle on very smol low tier dudes means that the armor has a harder time just ignoring them

[untold swallow]

but can grav guns deny Tyranids biomass

xD

I wish Gravis Librarians were a thing

[upper canopy]

I mean you got terminator librarian

[untold swallow]

Tru

[thin ibex]

Yeah no easy access to anti monster sadly

[untold swallow]

I have 50 points left and I think I'm gonna do an apothecary

[junior robin]

I think the world is ready for centurion librarian

[untold swallow]

can you attach multiple Leader characters to a unit?

[upper canopy]

Only certain ones

For Marines you can have one guy and a Lieutenant

But that's it

[untold swallow]

hmm

I'm rethinking the apothecary then

and also the infernus squad and normal librarian

[desert jay]

Apothecary can be a second leader, has explicit rulestext

[wintry mist]

honestly I fuck with it

[untold swallow]

What's a problem that has an answer this army lacks?

[thin ibex]

i dunno if your list has room for it rhi, but what if company heroes unit as a command squad thing

[untold swallow]

I have a distinct sense it's mainly anti-vehicle

[thin ibex]

you army lacks dedicted strong anti tank, like strength 12+ i think

[rocky shale]

Cheap indirect with the exarch too

[untold swallow]

Sadly no space

[thin ibex]

you can actually take twin lascannons on the stormravens for to sneak some AT into there if you wanted

[untold swallow]

Unless I also got rid of something else for another captain

[thin ibex]

however twin plasma cannons or anything higher than str 6 can combo with the stormspeeders to wound big stuff on 4s at least

though its nice to combo with str 12+ because you can wound some of even the biggest stuff on 3s

not a lot of stuff is toughness 12 or more tho

[untold swallow]

You know I think I may get rid of the heavy intercessors

[thin ibex]

but often big scary things are

[untold swallow]

and replace them with something else

[thin ibex]

what are you thinking you want to replace them with?

anti tank units or mobility units?

[untold swallow]

I feel like my list is maybe a little slow?

But then again that could just be needed to be solved with smart vehicle use

[thin ibex]

some of your premier anti tank options include:
Gladiator lancer
Gladiator Valiant - when used on the firestorm assault or ironstorm detachment
Ballistus dread
Eradicators if you can get em in
4 lascannon devastators
land raider
predator annihilator

off the top of my head

you mentioned wanting assault intercessors, those are nice movility units

[bright dove]

Mmmmm, lascannon Devastators.

[thin ibex]

inceptors are also great deepstriker/objective riding mobility units

lascannon devastators are no slouches on the offense, they're just very easy to kill otherwise

something ive thought about for a silly meme list before is running a lot of rhinos with devastators in them, and taking 2 lascannons and 2 plasma or heavy bolters

and switching off for whatever the target will be

using firing deck

[untold swallow]

I would use inceptors cuz they fit the flavor and stuff for the chapter

favoring air forces as their primary vehicles

but god I think they look kind of dumb

[thin ibex]

inceptors are top tier for secondary objectives and infantry shredding

especially with their 3 inch deepstrike rule iirc

they're good harrasment and mobility units that easily get into backlines

you wont rely on them for dps

they can also be surprisingly resistant to small arms fire

they do fold to good anti-fly firepower, but thats kind of to be expected

incidentally as a tangential comment

i find anti fly is suprisingly applicable even without people taking aircraft

like the Hydra totally has a home on most guard lists

and anti air stubbers for the impulsor? Not really a waste

[upper canopy]

https://vxtwitter.com/Sughammer/status/1745134162044997957

[untold swallow]

ayy lmao

[thin ibex]

Twin lascannons play real nice with oath of moment too

Reroll hits, reroll wounds

I think you've got good variable threat response with this set up

Oh remember to give the storm ravens hurricane bolters

I think you're probably weakest to more elite or monstrous melee, but you still have answers for it

Also do the vanguard vets not have fancy pistol/shield options?

[naive abyss]

Ngl some of these are just things I feel are good mental health outlooks for playing almost anything

Now granted those are hand in hand with some deranged ones lol

[jaunty dawn]

yeah I have very mixed feelings abt that post haha

[runic swallow]

I think it’s mostly in jest

And also “nope, I’m playing what I’m playing”

[jaunty dawn]

oh it is not aiui

it's a really old little thing

could be wrong tho

tbf my biggest issue is the way ppl get preachy about it which isn't directly relevant

WD 221 so '98

[ebon forge]

Has big E openly said to kill the Eldar?
Like, you can cooperate with the Eldar, but has Big E openly said to just murder them too?

[upper canopy]

Yeah

[thin ibex]

they are xenos

[floral herald]

Not very specifically but yeah

[ebon forge]

Because I don't remember Big E ever interacting with an Eldar

[thin ibex]

Eldrad apparently had direct conversations with big E in the past

[floral herald]

The 5e rulebook talked about how the Imperium doesn’t attack craftworlds any more because the Eldar do a disproportionate response every time and the IoM eventually realized it wasn’t worth it

But that’s well after the Emperor stopped talking

[thin ibex]

but also while its possible to at times cooperate with aeldari, aeldari also by and large think of humans as entirely beneath them and are of little to no valuel

[floral herald]

(Also because Imperial and Eldar interests line up a bunch of the time)

[thin ibex]

It's not purely like "aeldari are ok with humans, humans are not ok with aeldari" situation for sure

[ebon forge]

Yeah the Aeldari being so snobish and thinking they are always on the right and all mighty kinda
Makes Big E have a point about-
Yeah

[upper canopy]

(No it doesn't)

[floral herald]

I’ve never really followed it when people say that seriously lol

“Yeah well the Eldar are consistently rude meanies when we talk, this affirms my belief of unlimited genocide on the rest of the galaxy”

[upper canopy]

Average liberal

[ebon forge]

I mean, making it sense WHY
And didn't the Aeldari fucked Terra in the past before the Imperium was a thing?

[upper canopy]

Dark Eldar raided human worlds.

But again

[ebon forge]

Because I could see in a way, very slim way, of making the Aeldari be less of an assholes with humans if the Imperium really tried

[upper canopy]

Does not justify genocide forever and ever on everything.

[jaunty dawn]

it comes up a lot on r/40klore about how the anti xenos sentiment is from xenos attacks during the daot or whatever and it's like. how is that actually any different from the great crusade anyway

all the people you killed didn't feel any better about it because you were human

[upper canopy]

Also like

[jaunty dawn]

not that marines even are

[upper canopy]

Humans attacked humans

Xenos attacked xenos

humans and xenos worked together

[ebon forge]

So big E wants the total exterminations of all Xenos because "it will weaken Chaos and Webway project"?

[thin ibex]

i think big e wants to exterminate all xenos because he doesn't control them

[floral herald]

No he’s just a human supremacist

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

its his prime directive

[ebon forge]

a
sad
Though there was something deeper than that

[floral herald]

Killing aliens is an end not a means for the imperium

[jaunty dawn]

fascism is shallow

[ebon forge]

A fictional character does not need to be shallow on his motivation

that's a bit disappointing, ah well

[uneven ember]

also, to be clear, humans have attacked humans and worked together. 40K does have some always-aggro aliens that you do need to kill on sight but also the IoM are assholes.

[thin ibex]

i mean, we don't have any specific text of big e saying exactly why he decides to enact what he does. So we don't have a specific "Im just a human supremecist" but there are compelling context clues to suggest that his desire to destroy all xenos isn't a tactical or statecraft decision

mostly because there is pretty much no statecraft or compelling tactical reason to support genocide

you could probably make up or come up with loosely supported metastrategy reasons for why big E hates xenos if you really wanted to

[soft willow]

Big E is the Chaos god of Human.

[thin ibex]

but big E is not a good person

[uneven ember]

I also do feel that, at a certain point, trying to give too much of a layered and nuanced motivation for being a piece of shit almost comes across as justification.
There is a reasonable point that the IoM's satire is already undercut by the number of very real extinction-level threats from within and without they're dealng with.

[jaunty dawn]

cruella's mom did not need to be killed by dalmatians

[uneven ember]

(i mean that was funny as hell but i get you)

[jaunty dawn]

it was hilarious

[uneven ember]

But yeah, like, the Imperium are blood and soil fascists because they're zealots who think that hate is holy, ignorance is virtue, and learning is suspect.

[upper canopy]

They didn't let her get ripped apart by dogs

they pushed her off a cliff

[thin ibex]

now, i imagine big E might think he has a compelling metastrategy reason to exterminate xenos, because his ego is so big the entire imperium navigates with it

[ebon forge]

I see

[uneven ember]

He wants humanity to prosper, so he decides that the best way to make that happen is to unite humanity by force under the direction of his twenty clones.

I'm sure if asked he'd just make some social Darwinist argument about how humanity can only do genocidal expansionism or get genocidally expanded into so Xenos are inherently just competitors for living space

[ebon forge]

See? That's an explanation at least. A bad one and I don't agree with
but it is an explanation

And not "Just because yes"

[soft willow]

I think there's also partially a "This all used to be Human territory in the Golden Age" narrative too.

So classic empire manifest destiny stuff.

[floral herald]

Yeah it’s the same as pretty much every imperialist justification, a bunch of rhetorical backflips to avoid nakedly saying “we killed them to take their things”

[wintry mist]

revanchism rather than manifest destiny

but yeah

though Revanchism is a little different

[tired cairn]

There is a great deal of ruin in a nation, but the Imperium sure has an excessive amount of it to last ten thousand years

[uneven ember]

little from column A...
They're reunifying (conquering) the various human enclaves but they are also doing expansionism

[wintry mist]

oh yeah they are also manifesting that destiny

I want to see a setting where humanity is beset on all sides by existential horrors but is not evil

[bright dove]

Pathfinder

[ebon forge]

true

Starfinder too, kinda

[bright dove]

But yeah, in some cases the Imperium is right to immediately try to get rid of aliens, specifically in regards to Orks and Drukhari

Because ho boy

Peace ain't an option there

[thin ibex]

its an element of warhammer that like... humanity is not good, they are in fact evil. The thing is, humanity being evil does not make those that oppose them good. There is no "warhammer good guy"

[bright dove]

Craftworlders , Exodites, or Tau though?

[bright dove]

This ain't Age of Sigmar, yeah

Everyone in 40k is a piece of shit in some way

Not because it's necessary, but because it's easy

[upper canopy]

I mean that's a thing in 40k

There's very much a bunch of good guys in Warhammer

Fantasy and Age of Cigarettes

[thin ibex]

its a really like, easy slope to like want the "good" faction, to play the good faction, and to claim some moral highground at the 40k playground

[uneven ember]

Craftworlders are dicks who will randomly show up to fuck with people because The Prophecy said so, Exodites are mostly fine in that they're just sitting on the porch with a shotgun/giant dinosaur cavalry suggesting you go back how you came stranger, and the T'au being a colonialist expansionist force that's not genocidal makes them almost good guys in the game.

[floral herald]

Is this a slang phrase or hilarious autocorrect?

[upper canopy]

It's me being esoteric for no other reason than I desire whimsy at this moment in time.

[thin ibex]

its also like easy to fall into the trap of ethical tier listing for 40k when ultimately it doesn't really do anything

[bright dove]

How do you apply ethics to Orks or Nids?

[upper canopy]

Remember, ironically, what Saltzpyre said

"You should never grade evils, for if one is the worst, then you might be tempted to kinship with the least"

[floral herald]

Evil, also evil; easiest ethics of my life

[junior summit]

evil without being malicious

okay actually orks can be pretty malicious

[uneven ember]

I've said it before, but I do find it very funny how the SM/CSM dynamic is a mutual "so long as one among my hated enemy draws breath in all the galaxy I cannot know true peace"
where the CEldar/DEldar is more "hey 400-year-old virgin is Studying The Blade still working out for you or have you considered the Path of Getting Laid Every Now And then?"/"Sorry Edgelord Darkblade Tryhard or whatever the fuck, I didn't hear that through the cutlery set you're wearing on your face, you look like a horse's ass."

[bright dove]

Probably helps that the latter is less personal

[junior summit]

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkx3WqhotQM3J8Vh0JnGbX9bmD5RVb4LhgT?si=KV8Uzxdr4rXeNnjR

[uneven ember]

The time DEldar showed up to save Iyanden from ork attack because they thought the whole "send the souls of our ancestors to war but feel really bad about it" thing was funny as hell and they didn't want the orks to ruin it.

[tired cairn]

... there probably is a Path of Getting Laid Every Now and Then isn't there

Clearly not very popular given the Eldar birthrate though

[upper canopy]

Well Eldar can have sex without conception very easily.

Conception for them is a very DELIBERATE process that takes effort.

And considering what we've seen of Eldar romance, these guys do not fuck.

[jaunty dawn]

no one fucks in 40k

book series protagonists are an outlier and should not be counted

[upper canopy]

"My infatuation made a micro-expression that indicated a modicum of disaste for the poetry I read for him. I must now spend the next week in my domicile weeping and destroying every object within my posession."

The Path of the Eldar introduction is such a funny fucking comedy

It's all these incredibly weirdo aliens treating the most mundane series of romantic escapades as if they're going to be shot and killed.

[soft willow]

Only because James Workshop told Slaanesh they weren't allowed to anymore, because of their bad vibes about it. Which I mean totally fair.

[jaunty dawn]

no I think this has always been the case

[uneven ember]

Also funny to me, the thing about how DEldar babies are basically conspicuous consumption.

just "check it scrubs, I managed to survive bringing this thing to term, and none of you could do a damn thing about it. I'm gonna keep it alive long enough to be useful, and when (I know it you know it we all know it) it tries to usurp me I'm gonna manage that too. Get on my level."

[dense sedge]

True born that is

[uneven ember]

Yeah but I think halfborn come out fully cooked.

[brittle salmon]

Please elaborate

[upper canopy]

Path of the Eldar is a Roshambo that tells the same story but from three different perspectives over three books.

I cannot remember all the silly elf names so it's gonna be
Guy
Prick
Lady

[runic swallow]

Honestly it’s overplayed, gimme weirder examples of obsession or more of stuff like that Hellraiser harp lady

[upper canopy]

Guy, Prick, and Lady are all childhood friends but Guy recently fucked off to go be a Corsair while Guy is a sculptor.

[runic swallow]

Like, a psyker who’s a orchestra conductor or something

Or a magic painter

[upper canopy]

Guy tries to impress Lady with a sculpture but because Prick is there, she casts a split-second glance at him instead of his statue.

[runic swallow]

Or a fitness bro

[upper canopy]

So Guy loses his fucking mind

[brittle salmon]

Oh my god

[upper canopy]

He becomes so angry at Prick and is driven by such a murderous rage that he becomes a Striking Scorpion.

Over what is literally like the smallest romantic debacle.

It's both a really neat look into an alien species but also all of them treat everything with the same complete severity all the time

And when they don't, it's played for drama.

[naive abyss]

the hedonites are unmatched atm in slaanesh faction vibes imo

[upper canopy]

Like at some point Guy is trying to have a vacation from being a Striking Scorpion and walks up to a woman in the park and says "Hello."

She bolts from him screaming, and he's flabbergasted.

[brittle salmon]

That's extremely funny

[upper canopy]

So he goes into his mind palace and rewinds the scene to try and get an objective viewpoint and he sees what he ACTUALLY did was burst from the bushes in a killing stance growling like an animal.

[naive abyss]

snrk

aspect warriors confirmed as larpers

though i do kinda like the idea at least conceptually that aspect warriors struggle to just interact like a normal person with others

[upper canopy]

A Craftworld would be a utopia if you didn't have to live with a group of the weirdest motherfuckers in existence.

It's not even an Aspect Warrior thing.

That's just him.

All the other Aspect Warriors are just "Dude, what the fuck"

[floral herald]

Keep that up and they’ll promote you to Exarch

[upper canopy]

Spoiler but yeah that's exactly what happens

[floral herald]

It makes sense

[upper canopy]

There's a lot of really cool worldbuilding in that series though.

Eldar don't have doctors or medics in the conventional sense.

[floral herald]

Oh god the Eldar probably have a version of psychic Twitter and the most experience Posting Through It

[upper canopy]

That's the Infinity Circuit baby!!!!!!

You walk up to a terminal and ask all the ghosts where your homie is at.

[floral herald]

I now understand why the Eldar are grimdark fully

[upper canopy]

What the Path of Healer is that you basically learn to do Psychonaut-style invasions into people's mind palaces to get them through the trauma of what they went through to activate their latent Wolverine-level healing.

[floral herald]

That’s fucking sick

[upper canopy]

That entire book series is cool until the end

Which sucks.

Because a major craftworld gets bodied by a small-scale Imperial Crusade and a company of no-name Space Marines.

Also

best part of the book

[brittle salmon]

Yikes

[upper canopy]

the Aspect Warriors have their own tables at the cafeteria

like jocks.

[brittle salmon]

No way

[quaint compass]

Role model
I strive to be like him when I grow up

[upper canopy]

Way.

[brittle salmon]

I love that

[uneven ember]

Is it one table for all the Aspect Warriors or do all the different Temples have their own tables?

[floral herald]

They’re basically different teams right

[upper canopy]

Latter.

Guy learns he needs to walk the Path of the Warrior because he sits with one of his old friends who's a Dark Reaper.

[uneven ember]

FR though I can see it.
I remember that when Planet of the Apes was being made, the extras all segregated by species.

So at lunch the gorillas sat with the gorillas, the oranutans sat with the oranutans, and the chimpanzees sat with the chimpanzees.

[upper canopy]

Also it's really cool that Exarchs are simultaniously horrible abominations and exalted warrior-leaders.

[uneven ember]

ya

I also like how the lore and mythology snippets suggest that, when the Eldar did have a proper pantheon, Khaine was not what you'd call its most beloved member

[naive abyss]

i mean hes the god of murder

so yeah lol

even now hes not beloved

like the avatar is seen as an upleasant last resort

[quaint compass]

"Yes, I will turned my best and most horrible warrior into Nuclear: The Explosion. This will save our species."

[floral herald]

I think that’s also why Autarchs are so respected

They’re basically living the dream of doing coke whenever you want without getting addicted like grey Jedi

[uneven ember]

They know the Way of the Warrior but they manage to not be all weird about it.

[upper canopy]

Also I will say

I just love Warmasks as a concept

because really every Eldar is just 5 seconds from snapping and biting someone's throat out.

Fighting a properly snapped CW vs fighting a Deldar is like being locked in a building with either a rabid wolverine or a serial killer

which would you prefer

[dense sedge]

The most passive aggressive social media in existence

[upper canopy]

Actually about that

There's no fucking privacy in a craftworld because everyone can just read your mind anyway

So like

It's the worst version of always being online.

[uneven ember]

It also does have some analogues with, like, religious rituals I've heard about in real life.
A sort of dedicated "I am now in War Mode"/"I am done with War Mode" to try to compartmentalize things like response to violence.

[dense sedge]

At least they have a near nonexistent sex drive

[uneven ember]

I see why they might want to become Rangers

[floral herald]

I think they’re just repressed

[upper canopy]

They're VERY repressed.

The idea of Eldar being snooty and smug is really funny because what you have is a biological killing machine with a love of violence and killing as much as an Ork that's dressed up and gone "No, I'm civilized now."

[dense sedge]

The idea of a romance between a drukhari and craftworlds that ends with them becoming a Corsair couple

[uneven ember]

DEldar are just champs though,
The Craftworlders, Harlequins, and Exodites are all taking their own path to deal with the fact that their civilization collectively murderfucked its way into creating an evil god that slaughtered their gods, destroyed their civilization, and every moment tries to suck their souls from their bodies
The Drukhari just go "I'm not learning any lessons from this, fuck you"

[soft willow]

I mean the only lesson they learned was if they party harder they might be able to make it someone else's problem.

[upper canopy]

shut

i'm so mad

cyan this is an act of violence

[floral herald]

the blurst part of this for me is that I can't decide who's who in this telling

[upper canopy]

I KNOW

[uneven ember]

"I'm gonna murderfuck even harder because you told me not to"

[dense sedge]

Drukhari have a great aesthetic though

[upper canopy]

They do.

But yeah Eldar war mask is also why I love Warhammer Fantasy elves.

[dense sedge]

I hope we see exodites and harlequins getting actual support

[naive abyss]

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/xD0ZKY

[upper canopy]

Because they also go "We're so CIVILIZED, mmmyes" and then the camera pans over to Tyrion beating a man to death with his bare hands like he's doing a Doom 2016 Glory Kill.

[dense sedge]

I’d love to see gw take inspiration from theatre worldwide like kabuki or Greek masks for units

[floral herald]

That'd be neat

[uneven ember]

Maybe at least a Kill Team

[floral herald]

I'm not sure there's really space for a whole faction of clowns but I've been really surprised how reticent GW has been to do anything with Exodites

They're a cool asf concept

And we know from AoS that people love elves

[upper canopy]

We need another faction of Imperials first, obviously

[floral herald]

Make Arbites a full faction

[upper canopy]

Going to bite you

https://va.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_s6nj50Ib3z1xcuekc_720.mp4

[uneven ember]

Seriously though KT seems like an ideal place to drop coll af parts of the lore that they're not looking to turn into a whole Codex range

[upper canopy]

I mean you're not wrong

[floral herald]

By this logic we should expect Codex Space Beastmen soon

Which I'd be good with but it'd be really funny if it happened before traitor guard

But also yeah KT is a great place for marginalia and concepts which work but aren't a full army list really

Space beastmen, Gellarpox

Kroot mercs kinda

I'm hoping we get more details on the new Night Lords KT soon

I think there's gonna be some info at the warhammer open?

[uneven ember]

help is the joke just that the wiki for BT has "crusade" in like 3/4 lines?

[brittle salmon]

@floral herald oh my god I just realised what Kill Team I would go nuts for if they ever made it a reality

Rak'Gol hunting pack...

[upper canopy]

yes

[floral herald]

👀

[brittle salmon]

Make Rak'Gol fully canon GW

They're cool enough

[uneven ember]

I think they've been hesitant to release a list & how to keep it from being "Guard but better (Chaos options)" or "Guard but more spikes"

[naive abyss]

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/obxGKk

[uneven ember]

pretty

[dense sedge]

A grot revolutionary committee kt would be fun

[naive abyss]

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/DADX8G

[floral herald]

I think (bias here) that the blooded KT are a good way to differentiate them

The Imperial Guard KT has an "orders" system and protecting your officer is really important to keep getting buffs that way

[dense sedge]

Lost and the damned separate from csm would be fun

[floral herald]

The Blooded are a glass cannon which gets stronger and stronger the more it kills and dies

[naive abyss]

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/blmQmG

[floral herald]

So they basically play like maniacs

[brittle salmon]

Blooded also have more of a melee focus

[dense sedge]

Sounds fun

[naive abyss]

40k chaos needs something cuz it suffers so hard from oops all marines atm imo

[floral herald]

(Blooded are also one of the hardest KTs to play)

[brittle salmon]

Which, well, it's chaos, of course it does

[floral herald]

I think a codex lost and the damned with traitor guard and space beastmen and mutants and such would be great

[dense sedge]

I wonder what rules mandrakes will have

[naive abyss]

i also would love dark mech

[floral herald]

And it'd be fun to have another "insurgent style" army besides GSC

[dense sedge]

A chaos version of imperial agents

[naive abyss]

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/g08kKe

[floral herald]

Also I just found this

https://imgur.com/gallery/Vjka4KH

Counts as Tyranid Warriors KT

[naive abyss]

vibe

[brittle salmon]

[untold swallow]

Holy shit lmao

[brittle salmon]

Love my low tech cybernetic lizard boys

[untold swallow]

bro has an autocannon and a storm bolter

lmao

[naive abyss]

that do be terminators

[tired cairn]

It's faster to switch to your sidearm than reload

[brittle salmon]

Speaking of KT, I did game yesterday of Salvagers vs Legionaries and got completely bodied

I clumped by accident vs a missile launcher and a Balefire Acolyte

Very foolish

[uneven ember]

Haven't had one of those since the 13th BC campaign, yeah?

[jaunty dawn]

nah it was in the 8th edition index

[uneven ember]

ahh, icic

[floral herald]

I need to play more kt

[jaunty dawn]

technically some stuff is in legends still but the 8th index has like. literally everything

[untold swallow]

He’s got overkill from BO2 XD

[uneven ember]

But yeah the "blooded" method does sound pretty cool.
I just get the impression that, like, even CSM they've been trying for a minute to make the list a bit more distinct than "like that one SM unit, but evil"

[brittle salmon]

👀

[floral herald]

I'm down

[naive abyss]

gods youre gonna become a warhammer mechanics nerd arent you

[brittle salmon]

Maybe not today but I'd be keen to play

[floral herald]

I'm also not available today

[brittle salmon]

Works out!

[floral herald]

https://vxtwitter.com/jetblackraider/status/1744980749315678573?s=20

[dense sedge]

It’s useless on him anyway

[quaint compass]

He knows exactly what Cadia was

:]

[thin ibex]

wait the stormraven was initially a grey knights thing?

how odd

[floral herald]

Yeah it released with their 5e codex and then made the leap to normal space marines

Sort of like the weird space wolf only ram ship

[thin ibex]

"better fly in instead of just literally teleporting in on our big ass near-perfect teleportarium equipped ships"

can the stormworlf be taken by anyone? I thought only if you were running chapter keyword space wolves?

[floral herald]

No unlike the stormraven it didn't make the leap to generic vehicle

I believe the idea with the stormraven is for dropping off stuff which doesn't teleport well or in situations where the warp makes getting a proper teleport lock hard

As well as shooting anti daemon missiles and shit

[thin ibex]

welp, i like it, its cool looking

[desert jay]

Do you know when they made deep strike reliable rules-wise?

[thin ibex]

was just surprised to see it was GK shit fiirst

[floral herald]

7e iirc

maybe 8e

[uneven ember]

GK first, then I think Blood Angels but I think that was just a coincidence of codex releases

[floral herald]

looked it up and it was 8e

[uneven ember]

(I have one unassembled, Templars are pretty footsloggy but they are also fleet-based so they gotta have their landing support)

[desert jay]

Ah okay

Gosh, that late huh?

[jaunty dawn]

blood angels yeah

that's why the kit contains sculpted icons for gk and ba and no one else haha

[jaunty dawn]

deep strike scatter and reserve rolls were both removed in 8th edition

[thin ibex]

im glad the index detach brings back the idea that gk teleporters are better

without bringing back randomness to deepstrike

[uneven ember]

It definitely impacted how you used it when you had to worry about getting your whole Terminator squad killed with a bad roll.

(Now, I understand why they got rid of Guess Range...)

[jaunty dawn]

tbf I don't think gk ever got better deep strike

they just got it on pretty much everything

not dreadnoughts though which kinda supports the idea that dreadnought dropping is their specialty. stormraven also got a special rule to do a combat drop disembark mid movement

[floral herald]

I think they had better teleport homer access

It's been a while though

[uneven ember]

Yeah the "X troops plus a dread" was kind of weird when I first read it.
I guess the dread is supposed to be hanging from the back? Which is funny so I'm good with it

[jaunty dawn]

oh yeah they could take them on any sergeant etc

yeah it's magna grappled under the rear fuselage

[floral herald]

It looks funny when modeled but yeah

[uneven ember]

WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

(Is this still an option with Big Dreds?)

[jaunty dawn]

it is now!

[floral herald]

I don't think the rules care which kind of dread it is

[jaunty dawn]

used to be keyworded but in 10th it's any dread

[uneven ember]

dope

Yeah it had been a Wounds limit

which meant, in practice, "not Redemptor"

[jaunty dawn]

oh but regular marines could also take tp homers in tac squads and scout squads so

interceptors and dreadknights could benefit from tp homers though

which I guess technically the guy in the dreadknight is a terminator (for some reason the rest of the gk can't use tp homers for their teleport??) but interceptors just have their little teleport packs

[alpine quarry]

Humans are those aliens in 40k

Except not really because roughly speaking if its not a nid, shooting on sight wouldnt be the right answer because "well they have a violent culture"

You can negotiate with orks, who have their culture genetically encoded into them

[jaunty dawn]

orks can get sanctioned even

[alpine quarry]

My rogue trader had an ork voidmaster

Well to be fair not because he negotiated much, more because character gen decided that this specific rogue trader will have comically high strength

So i ended up with a character that was physically stronger than an ork

Thats besides the point

Like we can talk about how "well aliens are evil so it makes sense imperium shoots them" you are MISSING THE POINT

The first events in the timeline were just "well those guys are evil so its best they die"

And so they became eviler

Its literally the same shit repeating on a global timeline

"they are evil and we must kill them" turns into "they are even eviler now"

Great crusade essentially just killed off any alien that wasnt explicitly evil or violent to some degree

[ebon forge]

So anyways yeah un
I made that question about Big E and Aeldar because I wanted to try a Dogmatic route on Rogue Trader and I wanted to know the right mindset a bit more in debt

thanks for the long awnsers, it was fun, sorry if I sounded rude at anytime

[ebon forge]

SEE WHAT I MEAN
OWLCAT ARE A BUNCH OF

COWARDS

https://tenor.com/view/dark-souls-skill-issue-gif-23859816

[alpine quarry]

You get a dark eldar, no? Thats much worse lmao

[ebon forge]

I KNOW RIGHT IS RIDICULOUS

[topaz elk]

I mean it is a rogue trader game

If anyone can get them to work for them it’s them

[naive abyss]

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeaguesofVotann/comments/1936yhn/ancestors_wrath_ready_to_rock_and_stone/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

[dense sedge]

Ork companion and Argenta romance are the two things the community wants added (not improved or fixed) the most

I’d like more origins and backgrounds myself

[soft willow]

I'd settle for what's there actually working.

[dense sedge]

Yeah, that is 100% what should be their top priority

[uneven ember]

hm
So I'm gonna finally paint the BFG ships I played with as grey plastic back when BFG was a thing
I actually like naval grey for Imperial Navy main paint job, but looking at paint jobs by other people/Armada, I'm torn on whether I want to do the prow in white or red...

or

[naive abyss]

https://tenor.com/view/leonardo-dicaprio-hell-yes-omg-gif-4951286

sorry just i forgot how much bfg minis as a full fleet just hit my neurons

like man id kill for bfg to come back in new plastic

kill even harder for kin ships

[pastel rampart]

Kin ships are just floating Zardoz heads

https://tenor.com/view/zardoz-gif-18292749

[naive abyss]

i mean not quite

theyre like 40k versions of homeworld motherships lol

as ref

just weird fucked up vertical ships

they also are seemingly really bloody big even by 40k standards

[uneven ember]

GW did also declare that these dudes are Kin ships

(mixed with T'au ships there)

[naive abyss]

well they more showed pictures of them while talking about why the tau call kin demiurges lol

but they definitely at least took some of the visual language of the demiurge ships from bfg for the new art of kin ships

[floral herald]

Yeah a lot of the ones in the codex look like it was flipped

90 degrees

[uneven ember]

Well I mean technically there isn't an "up" in space

but yeah I just meant that they took the Demiurg ships & went "oh these were actually Kin the whole time"

The Demiurg ships had a fun mechanic where they sucked up blast markers off the board as they went, and then they could shoot them as a cutting laser. Which was fun.

Incidentally, I did really like the note in the BFG rulebook about why everything happened on a flat plane even though space was three-dimensional.
The answer was "because that's a whole Thing and it doesn't sound fun."

[thin ibex]

I'm guessing retroactively demiurge ships will be adjusted to fit the new aesthetic? Or is the implication that they are sort of their own kin faction?

[soft willow]

I mean the Kin ships in the LoV book look like and are described like those ships.

There might be some adjustments to bring them up to a modern standard but I doubt it'll be huge.

They were always meant to be Nostromo style mining ships.

[uneven ember]

And different ships can look different anyway. There's options.

[naive abyss]

Well I feel the ships in the new art tend a bit more homeworld but lol yeah

[untold swallow]

I'm finally making an Eldar list

after making two Imperium factions that have consorted with Exodites lmao

[uneven ember]

Some other fun rules around Demiurg fleets:
Immune to celestial phenomena compared to other vessels (no penalty for, eg, solar flares). No hierarchical fleet command, so no flagship or commander-based rerolls.
Highly automated, so they start every battle with Ld10 but lose one for each point of structure damage.
When fielded in T'au or Rogue Trader fleets, Demiurg are considered mercenaries and will automatically try to bounce if the ship is crippled, unless they are fighting Orks in which case they'll fight until they're almost dead.

[untold swallow]

How would one best go about making corsairs?

[past sphinx]

big hats

preferablly with feathers

[dense sedge]

well corsairs and corsair voidscarred are obvious choices, but otherwise you'll probably need to bring along either aeldari or drukhari as their main thing

[uneven ember]

Rangers, shroud bikes?

[thin ibex]

But silly this one. But I do absolutely love the volume of helfrost

Oh wait I can't bring the pack leaders lol

Because 16 carry capacity

But yeah, 48 howling space marines jumping out of bricks to charge anything and everything

For the curious

Helfrosts shtick in 10th is a truck load of flat damage gated by relatively low strength

[untold swallow]

god Yvraine looks fucking cool

[thin ibex]

Oh a good way to do Corsair in the past was to bring yriel and he'd make Corsairs easier to include or something, dunno if that is still true

I do know that if I was trying to thematically do Corsair, I'd probably bring a flier or two

[floral herald]

He does redeployment shenanigans now

but you can kinda include anything in 10e

[untold swallow]

Do Votann make good like

'raider' esque lists?

[floral herald]

What do you mean by Raider?

They can be relatively fast moving with jetbikes and mech infantry

[dense sedge]

corrsair are mercs that are fired by aeldari from either cormoragh or craftworlds, so you'll have to figure out who their patron is, there isn't enough of them to fill out a full roster. Going Ynnari and bringing harlequins along could be a way to reduce this though

[uneven ember]

I think you might be able to put together a Craftworld list and say they're Corsairs?
I'd avoid Aspect Warriors and big tanks for fluff reasons, probs
Rangers and Guardians should work as-is?

[floral herald]

I think you can run CWE and just take a lot of corsairs

[brittle salmon]

Also worth noting not all Corsairs are exiles

[floral herald]

I do think its kind of funny that for Eldar the options are basically

• repressed tightly wound psychics in post scarcity
• literally amputating your psychic powers to power yourself with being horrible
• option one but in a return to nature tradlife way
• stealing 🙂

[untold swallow]

don't forget meme-warriors and 'the last five but all reviving a dead god'

Also fuck it

T'au pirates time

[floral herald]

I wasn't counting clowns cause they're more of a vocation than a society as I understand it

But true I did miss Ynnari, but I don't really know what their deal is

[untold swallow]

fair

They're asuryani, exodites, drukhari, and harlequins sworn to the cause of reviving Ynnead

Mechanically

[uneven ember]

For fluff reasons, I'd avoid Aspect Warriors and Wraith-anything in a Corsair list.
Just figure they wouldn't have an Infinity Cricut or Aspect temples on the Corsair fleets.

[untold swallow]

The excuse to have any kind of Eldar in your army

[floral herald]

I'm not sure what day to day life is for them

Worse still, many see the Ynnari as corrupted by the very daemonic forces they seek to thwart, while others believe they are already dead inside.

lmao they're so dramatic

Ok so they're fleet based

[untold swallow]

well the drukhari probably lead less

'exciting' lives, let's call them

as Ynnari

[uneven ember]

But there should, lore-wise, be Corsairs able to field armies of their own without being hired on by the CEldar or DEldar.
If you can man a 40K space fleet you can field a 40K army is all I'm saying. When 40K talk about "pirates" you're still talking kilometer-long spaceships looting the wealth of nations.

[floral herald]

Oh yeah - there's at least one officially with Prince Yriel

[untold swallow]

I mean doesn't Yriel kinda have Iyanden in his pocket?

[upper canopy]

Yeah but only because he saved it with his corsair fleet

[uneven ember]

Yeah, he is now but he was persona non grata for a couple centuries give or take