Twisted Metal this motherfucker
#Warhammer and Such
thin ibex
My current plan for my IRL list
ive got roughly half of it
the next jump will be up to 2k
Oh if i play a 1.5k point game with someone, that just means play at 2k scaled missions right?
and maps
tired cairn
Yep
thin ibex
as a side note, yes, i know a sunshark isn't meta or nothin
but im not chasing a meta really
if we had access to a flier that hovered id prefer that
i just like the idea of close air support
bright dove
Ey, bombers are always nice to have on the battlefield.
thin ibex
i think the only thing im shakey on is i DO kind of also want a riptide
but i can live without it
bright dove
Side note, what are you using for your list there?
thin ibex
im using the web app New Recruit
i find it very approachable after some adjustment
and has good export features
bright dove
Sweet
thin ibex
i do think i have a lot of good tools on this list incidentally, decent anti armor on a number of targets instead of hard focused into one place, good long range anti elite support, 3 relatively close range elements
good spotting across the board
(no tetras because i do not wish to buy forgeworld)
obviously kind of weak to melee assault, but that's tau
if i ha a riptide that'd be my charge blocker cause he can kind of take a hit
farstalkers are also a guilty pick, as they're not really good at anythign, but i think they're super cool
naive abyss
on the note of new guard characters
does krieg have any notable preexisting characters?
thin ibex
not that im aware of
naive abyss
lol
brittle salmon
I honestly hope DKoK never gets actual characters unless they're an adjutant, like a Commissar or Priest
It helps to sell them as the zenith of the horrific Imperial war machine
Faceless meat marching into the grinder by the thousands to fight and die for a mile of ground
naive abyss
How long is the book of the War of the Beard?
i mean its multiple books
the first book is 416 pages t hough
and its 3 books
so all together its around 1200 pages
give or take
bright dove
Well, made myself a Skaven Army list. Is it good? Probably not. But there's closer to enough Dakka.
ebon forge
so all together its around 1200 pages
A bit long mmh.... will consider it, thanks!
I am slowly becoming a better reader so longer things might tire me too much (ADHD is a bitch)
naive abyss
mm mm
got a gf with it so i getcha
if it helps they are like distinct books from one another
so you can space them out
past sphinx
with a theoretical live action adaptation floating around now id like to remind those of the last time there was a big GW backed film project
crisp lance
(the artists does nsfw ...sooooo yeah h, uhhhh I can still link to thier twitter if you want it )
but there " A pervy Dwarf " on twitter
soft willow
with a theoretical live action adaptation floating around now id like to remind ...
It wasn't that bad. It wasn't that good either, but it wasn't that bad.
thin ibex
Dante, Logan, Marneus
3 way battle Royale, all 3 walk in, one walks out. Who do you think is taking the W?
past sphinx
It wasn't that bad. It wasn't that *good* either, but it wasn't that bad.
the facial animations have aged the most poorly
soft willow
Yeah it was dated even when it came out.
But like it's story is good, and it's reasonably well framed.
topaz elk
Dante, Logan, Marneus
3 way battle Royale, all 3 walk in, one walks out. Who ...
Dante
He would walk out and start sobbing because he won
thin ibex
As much as I love Logan, I think Dante takes it because of mobility and a melta pistol ultimately
I think Marneus is probably taking the biggest L between them though
pastel rampart
Marneus survives but he gets jobbed pretty bad for it.
thin ibex
Also, Logan might be the Old Wolf, but Dante has him on raw experience
bright dove
Dante is a monster in a fight and has a mountain of experience.
thin ibex
I think in raw overall capability, all 3 are all capable of beating the other, none of the fights would be low dif, but ultimately I'd bet on Dante
bright dove
Agreed.
Calgar's good, but he's the one least equipped to handle things in this case.
past sphinx
he can fight and use his thumbs
thats a plus
ripped the head off a lord of skulls with those thumbs
hes the only marine with dual powerfists and hes the only ultra i respect because of that
past sphinx
counter offer, dante loses but survives
Dreadnought dante
fucker would live to see big E step off the throne
bright dove
It's not like Dante's a Lamentor, so we don't have to be that mean.
naive abyss
dense sedge
2013 oof, it looks like it could be from the 90s
2013 was the same year that Frozen came out
ebon forge
so you can space them out
that's awesome, thank you
jaunty dawn
2013 was the same year that Frozen came out
knew this couldnt be right. ultramarine came out 2010
trailer date is for bluray release I guess
pulsar cairn
when using both marines malevolent and Salamanders as a "marines niceness" scale 
as malevolent being the absolute worse 
and at the bottom
what would be a good midterm?
alpine quarry
Ultramarines?
pulsar cairn
maybe 
i feel like Imperial fists would be somewhat near them
but lower
like idk much about how they fight in present 40k
i remember them being like, they don't care much about civilian safety but wont actively use them as meat shields and whatever
they won't care about colateral I'm pretty sure
naive abyss
Tbh I recommend most of the time of legends books
They're the book series that led to HH books happening I feel but ultimately overall are better imo due to dealing with fewer sorta necessitated restrictions and etc
naive abyss
<:vicksySip:996566522828968088> when using both marines malevolent and Salamand...
Tbh salamanders should be replaced with lamenters
And my perhaps insane take is salamanders are the middle point
That or wolves
With most major marine chapters falling below that
Though I'll admit I have no idea where scars are on this list lol
pulsar cairn
Saying Salamanders are the middle point is wrong i'll say considering the stupid amount of self sacrifice they do
in my opinion at least i can see Lamenters being above them
but a lot of the things they did i could also see the Salamanders doing
bright dove
Lamenters probably take a hit from their luck.
pulsar cairn
tru
idk much about the scars I can't really say where they would be but i feel like it would middle at a minimum
i don't remember hearing about them doing terrible stuff to civilians and whatnot
thin ibex
I'd like to think Scars are at least on par with wolves in that regard but I think we just don't have a lot of info
bright dove
Knowing the Khan, they probably are close to the Wolves.
pulsar cairn
good point
thin ibex
I do also suspect that, at least going forward, due to recent showings and fan canon, the salamanders will be the top tier of space marine niceness to humans and particularly civilians
Though I do think Wolves might be the only chapter to actually go to war with the inquisition on behalf of the imperial guard out of the 1st founding chapters.
pulsar cairn
yeah, i see them closer to the top cause of stuff like that
naive abyss
Tbh I feel salamander niceness is over stated especially when you take into account their obsession with fire
it's all good as long as u ain't no heretic
naive abyss
Also they're in middle or near it in part due to how even more horrible most marines are
naive abyss
DA when fallen aren't involved are somewhere between non rage blood angels and ultras
When fallen are involved they're tied with templars more or less
pulsar cairn
problem being Fallen used to be involved all of the time
naive abyss
I mean in most their stories yes. Cuz that's their whole thing lol
naive abyss
I mean heresy era they were at the same level as most legions tbh
Like most legions vibes were comparable outside of notable exceptions I feel
thin ibex
Oh I agree that Salamander niceness is overstated often times, but I also think that the fan zeitgeist might see reflection in their actual lore as things go forward
naive abyss
ebon forge
Yeah pretty much
desert jay
Also the flamer thing seems only kinda mean when you realize the standard infantry weapon for most other chapters is firing explosive shells at full auto
bright dove
And don't Salamanders have a ton of fights against Orks?
Like, the flamer is the best weapon for that
upper canopy
I think the general assumption is that everyone's fighting orks at all times tbh
jaunty dawn
its not like orks ever stop fighting you
proud wing
Ultramarines?
I think it's worth noting that the ultramarine-controlled sector is the only place in the galaxy where you can be a human with a semi-decent quality of life
and I think trying to make sure your population is able to be happy in their homes is way more important than being nice to the tiny, tiny amount of citizens you'll meet in person
dense sedge
Yeah, ultramarines have good logistics while also not seeing humans as just a numbered resource when they’re in government
upper canopy
Ultramar still practices slavery, mind
naive abyss
Yeah ultramar tbh is just iom but run more efficiently imo
Like you arguably would be better treated as a human by tau still. And definitely humans allowed on craftworlds or in kin leagues likely are treated better assuming they aren't prisoners lol
dense sedge
https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/6cQzJQxMUm1JIkFM-846x761.jpg
Feed me Seymour
upper canopy
I still think the funniest thing in the world is Marneus Calgar growing up as a slave, being put in charge of Ultramar, and absolutely doing nothing to abolish slavery
dense sedge
Wait, it has slavery?
upper canopy
Yes
pulsar cairn
i mean have u seen how the fists recruit people?
naive abyss
It's space Rome of course it does
upper canopy
Again, Marneus Calgar himself was a slave.
upper canopy
i mean <:vicksySip:996566522828968088> have u seen how the fists recruit people...
The funniest part of the Imperial Fist recruitment process is the ass tattoo.
pulsar cairn
Ultras and Fists probably put something in the "recruits" water
naive abyss
I still think the funniest thing in the world is Marneus Calgar growing up as a ...
Truly he is the greatest champion of the pick me phenomenon lol
pulsar cairn
The funniest part of the Imperial Fist recruitment process is the ass tattoo.
i didn't know about that one
is it like a lil fist tattoo?
naive abyss
The funniest part of the Imperial Fist recruitment process is the ass tattoo.
Gotta give the new recruits their tramp stamp
jaunty dawn
ultramar is absolutely not the only place like itself in the imperium lol
biggest contiguous one maybe
naive abyss
That too
pulsar cairn
ya think the Old ones completely gave up on our Galaxy?
i remember that they just left
wherever thry are is probably a lot better than here 
upper canopy
Nah they died
naive abyss
Yeah them leaving is a fantasy thing lol
upper canopy
junior robin
finally, a primaris lieutenant for the emperors condiments
thin ibex
I think in the Imperium, being a normal person generally sucks, but there are places that are significantly better than others. Like pray to be born on an agriworld rather than a manufactorum or hive world
Life will still be one mostly of toil, but chances are it won't be soul crushing, live-and-die at your work station drudgery
tired cairn
"Farmworkers, fishermen, forestry" had the highest suicide rates in the US in 2016, so an agriworld is probably also not amazing
You probably want some unspecialized world near the Imperial core that happens to have a relatively nice governance system
floral herald
There’s a really hyperbolic bit one of the the books talking about how the idea of “agri world pastoralism” is imperial propaganda and the reality is globe spanning nightmarishly toxic monoculture intensive farming
It’s of course not fully accurate cause there’s also been books with agri-worlds which were pretty pastoral but it does check the “it’s somewhere nice” line of thinking pretty well
spice flicker
So soviet-esque farmland
tired cairn
I'm imagining either a lot of loneliness when you are one of the few humans in miles
Or like, serfdom with excessive tax rates
Though I'm sure some are pastoral because the Imperium is ginormous
thin ibex
I have an urge to build and play a 3 stormsurge list on tts lol
floral herald
So soviet-esque farmland
I’ll just grab the excerpt
I think this is… kinda dumb all in all but it shows the mean end
Though the only part which really annoys me is the “every agri world looks exactly the same”
When there’s both like dozens of counterexamples in published lore and one of the core axioms of 40K is that it’s a highly variable “yourdudes” setting
spice flicker
As from being in a state with a lot of land for agriculture usage I can confirm it doesn't look the same everywhere.
thin ibex
40k battlefield about to look like macross plus
spice flicker
A pair of tetras for each stormsurge and the kroots to ftgg the breachers?
thin ibex
Sort of, breachers to actually contest the points that the surges clear, the kroot to meet and delay enemy melee specialists
spice flicker
You have three stormsurges but I can't help but feel you're lacking in some heavy firepower outside of them.
thin ibex
Gotta buy the surges as many rounds of shooting as possible
bright dove
Meanwhile, I'm just looking at AoS armies
spice flicker
Trio of surges or a single tau'nar?
bright dove
And being unimpressed with the Sons of Behemat
spice flicker
I prefer knights in 40k but I enjoy nighthaunt in aos
spice flicker
I remember my first encounter with macross was Robotech, specifically Robotech invasion on the ps2 which is actually based on another series. Of the macross series I will admit I quite enjoyed macross frontier and Zero.
In your list if you get rid of all the kroot would that free up space for a squad of crisis suits armed with 4x missile pods for even more macross missile spam?
All the kroot are 190 points while crisis trio is 180 points
thin ibex
my main concern is i have 20 bodies with an fnp 6+ and scout movement, vs 3 bodies with a 4++. with 3 stormsurges, i think itd be folly to further invest in low count, high quality units
spice flicker
Understandable
pulsar cairn
dense sedge
The funniest part of the Imperial Fist recruitment process is the ass tattoo.
The what
spice flicker
Wait what?
pastel rampart
They get the IF symbol tattooed on their butt.
pulsar cairn
oh that's whay they meant by IF
pulsar cairn
pastel rampart
spice flicker
I saw a discussion earlier about what idea or concept would you base a new Chaos God around with the one sticking out to me the most that someone mentioned was a God of memories and nostalgia. How serious of a threat do you think such a being would be in 40k?
cinder wraith
thank fuck humanity in the 40k universe do not think about the roman empire /j
spice flicker
They have the 500 worlds of Ultramar instead.
upper canopy
I saw a discussion earlier about what idea or concept would you base a new Chaos...
that's just the fandom
cinder wraith
shit
spice flicker
The factions I can think of that long for the past (and thus possibly be threatened by this thing):
Space Marines (long for primarchs and the days of the great crusade)
Ad mech (long for DAoT)
Eldar (haunted by memories of the fall.)
Necrons (desire to return to the neceontyr days)
Custodes (long for the days when the emperor walked among them)
CSM
floral herald
I don't think chaos space marines are that nostalgic
At least on the whole
Most imperial factions are to add to the list
spice flicker
Edited my last thing to add a little elaboration for some factions.
Funny enough Tau, nids, genestealers, and possibly orks might not have much for this god to endanger them with.
floral herald
Chaos gods are still plenty dangerous even if you're not specifically feeling their emotions
IDK if its canon but I've always associated nostalgia/golden age stuff with Nurgle
spice flicker
I think Nurgle is more Stagnation/degredation hence why Tzeentch hates him the most since the changer of ways is all about changes. This memory God might be more Regression than Stagnation since it's focus might be more on looking/going back rather then despair and do nothing about the present.
Memories: past
Nurgle: present/end
Tzeentch: future/new
I could be understanding the gods wrong though.
floral herald
Longing for a past which is gone and not coming back just seems to dovetail pretty nicely with Nurgle's stagnation for me, but the gods are intentionally pretty vague and there should be space for smaller ones or aspects of them
GW should make more subgods/powerful daemons for the 4 so we can have something like Sclumble, a Nurgle Subsidiary
south axle
Best Chaos god is the great horned one
thin ibex
iirc nurgle IS stated to be the antithesis of tzeenthc
spice flicker
Each God has another they hate more then the rest. Khorne hates slaanesh, slaanesh loathes khorne, Tzeentch can't stand Nurgle, and nurgle clashes with Tzeentch.
floral herald
The khorne-slaanesh beef always made less sense to me than the nurgle-tzeentch one
pulsar cairn
khorne just needed someone to be angry at
nurgle doesn't feel a thing and Tzeench is too weird
spice flicker
The way I see it is that Khorne just wants to kill and it doesn't matter who does it which can eventually become excessive which then makes it fall into Slaanesh's domain to Khorne's frustration. Slaanesh is all about excess and perfection which might conflict in some regards to Khorne.
Slaanesh wants to slaughter to enjoy the excessiveness of the killing and does it for pleasure. Khorne just wants the slaughter because it'll kill many and doesn't care for tricks/being the best at killing so long as things die.
floral herald
Yeah that's the best explanation that I've heard that Khorne is about unthinking action - about the result and Slaanesh is about how the act is done and how it feels instead
thin ibex
slaanesh plays with their food, khorne thinks thats insulting to both the person doing it and the person its being done to
naive abyss
i still think hashut in 40k would kick ass
spice flicker
We just got dwarves with no major expansion to their Lore so I think it'll be a while before we get anything chaos dwarf related.
naive abyss
?
i mean one hashut doesnt just have to be chorfs
and two like literally they added a whole faction with allot of either newly resynthesized lore and in some cases just whole cloth new lore
so idk how thats not a major expansion of lore lol
floral herald
I think its increasingly hard to add extra chaos gods to 40k, but I imagine you can characterize hashut as an archdaemon kind of like vashtorr
naive abyss
pastel rampart
I found that getting some plasticard tubing and making little score lines works great for meltas btw.
(he says, after having had to make like 10 of them with GS alone)
past sphinx
I found that getting some plasticard tubing and making little score lines works ...
well noted
i genuinely had an old multi melta from some vehicle kit that would fit perfectly and i lost it the day i got these in
i found it roughly 5 minutes after finishing this
pastel rampart
I do alright with GS but if I can use some plastic instead I'll jump through a few hoops to do it, hah.
I keep a small box of old headphone wires for stuff like this too. Oddly, they make for great intestines if you coil them right.
past sphinx
genuinely my first use of plasticard
ive got to find something for the ring at the end of a melta barrel
reckon ive got something from an old tau kit that would kit nicely
pastel rampart
Thin green floral wire, perhaps.
solemn gull
So soviet-esque farmland
I refuse to believe ratling worlds are anything besides massive shires
past sphinx
Running that CoD drum mag no stock red dot loadout
oh thats just a terrible picture
naive abyss
pulsar cairn
wolf successor?
alpine quarry
And my perhaps insane take is salamanders are the middle point
Tbh i agree
I like the thought of Vulkan personally being much bette than his children, but i cant tell at this point how much guilt he feels canonically and how much of it is fanon
alpine quarry
I think its increasingly hard to add extra chaos gods to 40k, but I imagine you ...
I feel like this depends on definition of a god
Like when does the demon stop being a demon and becomes a minor chaos god?
pastel rampart
alpine quarry
Chaos operates in aspects. Demons are often described as literal physical extensions of their gods, but they are also often autonomous, or can even become semi-independent. Its easiest to describe the relationship between demons and their gods as subjects and suzerains.
A powerful demon of khorne might be worshipped by his own cult and manifest a certain aspect of khorne. Technically the worship feeds both the demon, and their suzerain.
Demon in question could rule over worlds or even systems.
Would any of this make them a minor god?
I saw the term archdemon used freely as a synonym for minor god too.
In the end, big 4 are also in a way subjects to chaos undivided, and so on, and so on.
Tldr, its not that hard to justify a new small chaos god, even if it shares ""domains"" with the big 4
floral herald
Like when does the demon stop being a demon and becomes a minor chaos god?
In 40K at least there isn’t really a “minor chaos god” the closest thing is probably Vashtorr but that’s just because they’re a warp entity with a measure of independence from the four
long void
Yeah that's the best explanation that I've heard that Khorne is about unthinking...
I've figured Khorne acting to externalize their self onto the world, while Slaanesh is taking in the world's sensations for an internal experience
floral herald
Archdaemon is I think a term I borrowed from fantasy/AOS where minor warp gods are more of a thing
alpine quarry
In 40K at least there isn’t really a “minor chaos god” the closest thing is prob...
"there are no minor chaos gods, there are just very big warp entities, even with their own domains in the warp"
floral herald
I’m mostly going off of the Dark King stuff in the death and the end books for why I think there’s less and less narrative space for another full blown chaos god
floral herald
Well, exciting to is more how I’d characterize that
alpine quarry
The difference between fantasy and 40k, that also kinda doesnt allow to really show chaos in much detail, is scale
This is also partially why chaos is described as something comically unappealing
Like your average nurgle cult is most likely not going to be a bunch of lunatics that want to achieve immortality by rotting alive
floral herald
Average in 40K or fantasy?
alpine quarry
40k and fantasy
Your average nurgle cult on a planet of Bumfuck nowhere is going to be something along the lines of "pray to the grandfather green so he protects you from disease" or shit like that
floral herald
Ah ok I follow now yeah
alpine quarry
And thats it. Thats the extent. It might even be a sanctioned by the local priesthood until a properly educated ecclesiarch takes a look and shits their pants
I kinda forgot what i was talking about but uhhhh
Grandfather green metaphysically is going to be both nurgle and a demon of nurgle
It might have been just a demon that coerced people into the cult, or it might have popped up into existence from the cult appearing naturally
But the worship of the cult, unless this is somehow directed at some specific entity with an established identity, is probably going to shape the demon that feeds on it
So if this grandfather green, who is a part of nurgle, but has de-facto its own cult and potentially differing aspects, acts and looks like a very minor god, why not just call it a god? xd
Lexicanum calls vashtor a "demi-god"
floral herald
My argument is basically "because the four don't consider that entity a god"
It's a definition by peerage
Vashtorr is in a weird spot there where demi-god might make sense
alpine quarry
Four barely consider eachother gods
floral herald
But they do
alpine quarry
The point is, its a very weird way of defining things.
Vashtorr is a very weird case tho!
floral herald
Vashtorr is in a weird spot there where demi-god might make sense
Since they're a warp entity which is not of the 4 and thanks to a series of binding deals is enough of a power broker in the warp to steal daemons from the 4
alpine quarry
He actively shares domain with big 4, but isnt a part of any of them.
I think its okay to count him as a minor chaos god
Belakor too tbh
Daemonprinces are in a more of a weird spot than any vashtorr in my opinion
I dont remember, can chaos gods cut the prince off, or is the prince forever going to be what they are, even against their creators wishes?
floral herald
The process isn't reversible but the resulting being is pretty closely aligned with the will of the god doing the apotheosis
There's a good passage on this about a chaos space marine undergoing khornate apotheosis on Cadia iirc
Basically he's not really in there as an individual anymore he's so dominated by the will of khorne
ofc the chaos gods being chaos gods that doesn't preclude acting against their creator
alpine quarry
I think its theoretically okay to count daemonprinces as demigods for this argument
floral herald
Especially in a classical sense
alpine quarry
I think they behave differently metaphysically tho
floral herald
Half god half mortal kind of thing
alpine quarry
I think they behave differently metaphysically tho
Since unlike any other daemon, they dont really seem to be influenced by stuff? Like outside of general gods will, you cant really change magnuses color by forcing a few hundred billion people to call him magnus the blue
That seems to be the case for most daemons with established identity so to speak tbh
floral herald
Yeah I think that's just generally true of daemons
alpine quarry
So in retrospect not so different, yep
floral herald
At least not the ones which are definitionally in constant flux
alpine quarry
Theres just this weird dichotomy of one hand demons being shaped by thought, and already shaped demons shaping thought instead
Named character sort of deal
floral herald
I think its okay to count him as a minor chaos god
I should clarify - I mean what might be considered in setting a minor chaos god less than how fans should name some entities
Which is why I deferred to what the gods would think (or some "chaos scholar" types, though honestly they'd probably be wrong given the nature of chaos
alpine quarry
Gods dont think
Thats the point
Especially not the big 4
But a chaos scholar might use the term "minor chaos god" pretty freely
alpine quarry
I think its entirely possible for people in setting to refer to vashtorr as a minor god.
alpine quarry
I think we've seen a lot of thinking from the gods
It is not thinking in the way that makes categories like "oh this guy is a minor chaos god"
Like they shouldnt be looked as a source in this at all
pastel rampart
The chaos gods absolutely think, it's just that they're also very classical gods in the Greek sense--slaves to their own desires and ultimately self-defeating in one manner or another.
floral herald
I think they're the only source for it since they're only the 4 because of mutual recognition of one another
alpine quarry
Since when do they think in such technical chaos taxonomy???
"oh yeah this is not a real god, this is a halfgod/daemon/whatever"
This is something a scholar would say, not tzeentch
floral herald
So Slaanesh and The Dark King count as chaos gods from recognition as they appeared and entities which don't get that recognition don't
alpine quarry
That is an incredibly useless category
floral herald
Tzeentch probably has a nine hundred and ninety nine element taxonomy of a chaos god and it contradicts itself
alpine quarry
Honestly i am too sleep deprived to follow this chain of thought, so ill just go to sleep
floral herald
That is an incredibly useless category
I don't really see where "useful category" game into it
It's chaos all externally imposed frameworks fail etc
And except for sheer power and "eligability" for the Great Game I don't think there's a real ontological difference between the chaos gods and other warp entities
(Though how the chaos gods tell the difference between the chaos gods and things like gork and mork has always confused me, maybe they just don't)
alpine quarry
"its becoming really hard to introduce a new minor chaos god to the setting"
"well that depends on the definition"
"definition is: whatever in universe gods consider a god"
Like sure i guess its hard because by this definition it must be comically powerful
And its hard to add something comically powerful out of nowhere without it feeling like shit
GW have been setting up/hinting at greater good birthing a chaos god for a long time
But if we are talking chaos gods like ughhh idk hashut
Then theres a ton of entities that fit the bill, but on the great scheme of things are often too irrelevant to mention
Scale is also why ffg ttrogs usually elaborate on stuff like that, although ironically enough in the dedicated chaos gsme they mostly didnt
floral herald
"its becoming really hard to introduce a new minor chaos god to the setting"
"we...
Before the big detour about the ontology of it my point was pretty much just that there's a bunch of minor warp gods in fantasy, like the big ones with the Horned Rat and Hashut and such but also a host of extra minor ones like Ans'l and Mo'rcck and Necoho and Zuvassin and probably a bunch more which are mostly in really old publications. In fantasy there's a long history and huge pantheon of em.
In 40k there's not as much similar history and the HH books in particular are really building up the four as the entities of note, so there isn't the same background for them, and much more stress placed on there being only 4 and multiple potentially failed attempts to make a fifth
alpine quarry
Before the big detour about the ontology of it my point was pretty much just tha...
Yea but even in fantasy the minor chaos gods and big four are different weight categories entirely
tired cairn
Even Fantasy, it was a thing that the Horned Rat was trying to ascend to be equal to the other four right?
floral herald
Yeah
Though I think the Horned Rat is on the level in AoS now
(I don't know fantasy or AoS as much as 40k though)
alpine quarry
Like i am just not understanding why are you talking about "minor chaos gods" and then are switching to "fifth chaos god"
Those are definitionally cosmically different
floral herald
Because that's how 40k has treated additional chaos gods
There just isn't a history of things called "minor chaos gods" in published material since like, Rogue Trader
alpine quarry
Yeah they dropped the term, but that doesnt equate it to this other, bigger and meaner term xd
Introducing minor chaos gods/demigods/especially big daemons isnt particularly hard regardless of how you call them
past sphinx
Do you think a Tyranid could operate an elevator
floral herald
yes
alpine quarry
Introducing a proper god-god, yea, no shit xd
I think that dark king was introduced badly
tired cairn
Genestealers probably regularly operate an elevator
pastel rampart
Though I think the Horned Rat is on the level in AoS now
There was always hints that the Horned Rat was close to the 4's powers pre-AOS, but that it kept itself quiet and didn't pull off any overt moves. In retrospect this was probably to find the right opportunity to make a move and establish himself as a proper god, and now here we are.
floral herald
Introducing minor chaos gods/demigods/especially big daemons isnt particularly h...
I guess that depends on what your definition of "hard" is
It's not hard to write anything in particular but adding something like that without being weird about already existing lore and such would be pretty hard imo
floral herald
There was always hints that the Horned Rat was close to the 4's powers pre-AOS, ...
That makes sense to me
alpine quarry
I think that dark king was introduced badly
Not as in written badly, he just felt like an act of literary masturbation over how strong big papa golden hitler is
floral herald
Do you think a Tyranid could operate an elevator
There's a part in the old Titan God Machine comic where a hormaguant infiltrates the lower parts of the Titan and I forget if it uses an elevator specifically but it can operate some of the machines iirc
alpine quarry
It's not hard to write anything in particular but adding something like that wit...
I think adding another vashtorr is pretty easy
Theres another problem tho
Who are you going to sell it to
Theres like 1 guy that knows who vashtorr is, and 0.5 that know he actually has a model
alpine quarry
GW is notoriously a company, and a particularly greedy one. Hence why lore developments like that are often left to books and ttrpgs.
floral herald
I have no idea what you're talking about
pastel rampart
Yeah you're kinda all over the place right now.
floral herald
I don't have a lot of interest in this particular discursion though, I hope I've made my point about the differences between AoS and 40k in how they treat chaos adequately
alpine quarry
It's 5:40, ofc i am saying things at this point
floral herald
yeesh that is late lol
alpine quarry
What i mean to say is that GW likes to do avoid doing things that potentially lose them money, and pulling up new characters like vashtorr out of their ass isnt particularly a safe move, even if it makes sense in-universe
brittle salmon
GW individually gave their employees 2500 pounds in bonuses this year, let's not igore that
alpine quarry
What i mean to say is that GW likes to do avoid doing things that potentially lo...
Things like this are often of very local scale too, so they are most represented in books and ttrpgs, things dealing with individual characters and their adventures
floral herald
Vashtorr is also fairly old at least in hints
I think they first appeared albeit without the name Vashtorr in 2008 with codex chaos daemons 4e
alpine quarry
Even for fantasy half the stuff you named as examples of minor gods isnt actually GW
alpine quarry
Necoho for example was introduced by ffg in a campaign book
Literally with "there is a temple to this weird god here, in this specific town in kislev"
past sphinx
Is Malice canon this week?
naive abyss
Lol
pastel rampart
Necoho predates FFG.
floral herald
Mor'cck is also I think more of a cute Michael Moorecock than anything else
past sphinx
Sons of malice are in cadia stands for what thats worth
floral herald
In the same personal category of "real lore but lol" like Tic'tacto and Tenehuini
naive abyss
Also I still find belakors lore hilarious in 40k
floral herald
An'sll and Phraz-Etar are also probably artist pun names but I don't know who they reference
naive abyss
The gods decided to make an undivided prince
floral herald
An'sll and Phraz-Etar are also probably artist pun names but I don't know who th...
Which apparently have been mentioned in 40k?
Someone on a forum in 2009 said they were in the 3rd ed codex csm
naive abyss
Then immediately decided that was a mistake
alpine quarry
Necoho predates FFG.
He was introduced in a Supplement for 1st edition of whfrp which is a ffg game
pastel rampart
He was introduced in a Supplement for 1st edition of whfrp which is a ffg game
First edition was released by GW.
floral herald
1st ed whfrp was Black Industries iirc
FFG got the license some time later in the publication history of 2e
naive abyss
1e was gw originally at least
pastel rampart
WFRPG was 1986, FFG didn't form until 1995.
alpine quarry
Did i gaslight myself with this one...
floral herald
FFG got the license some time later in the publication history of 2e
This is seared into my brain cause FFG got the Dark Heresy license shortly after I started playing it haha
pastel rampart
They did the first edition in-house and then let FFG release 2e like...15 years later.
floral herald
And the difference between the Black Industries books and the FFG ones is pretty big
alpine quarry
It has the same mechanical core as most ffg ttrpgs
pastel rampart
Though 2e was originally Black Library.
naive abyss
They did the first edition in-house and *then* let FFG release 2e like...15 year...
Lol yeah
pastel rampart
Sorry, Black Library and Green Ronin, weirdly enough.
naive abyss
Gods
pastel rampart
https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhammer_Fantasy_Roleplay Thank god for nerds with better publication memory than me.
naive abyss
Green ronin is a name I haven't thought about in a while
alpine quarry
Huh
floral herald
What the heck I had no idea Green Ronin was involved with whfrpg
floral herald
They're still around in some capacity
naive abyss
I have like a vague recent memory of something happening with them
Which I know is a nothing statement lol
floral herald
Honestly I don't know I haven't interacted with them all that much since I was playing the asoif rpg
naive abyss
Valid
floral herald
Wait a sec
naive abyss
I just got partially brain blasted at the mention of them is all lol
floral herald
Oh man I just made myself sad
naive abyss
?
floral herald
I just realized why there's such a sharp difference between what I had been calling the "early era" of Dark Heresy and the "later era" demarcated by The Radicals Handbook and Blood of Martyrs
desert jay
Then immediately decided that was a mistake
But also Bel'akor's not the last undivided prince, there's Perturabo and Lorgar too
(And also M'Kar but who cares? I just now found out he even existed)
floral herald
Perturabo is really interesting to me
Since its implied that he did whatever he did himself
desert jay
Yeah whereas Lorgar and M'Kar are Word Bearers and all about all chaos all the time
pulsar cairn
something Brickie said in his podcast episode about perturbado was something like "Man, this guy is a manchild...but fuck he's extremely competent"
he also said that he carried the heresy on his back
crisp lance
Perturabo is really interesting to me
I read his name as " peturbo."
like your making someone perturbed , but at turbo speed
pulsar cairn
u making fun out of Peter Turbo? >:c
ebon forge
He's going to go Turbo mode on you >:V
ebon forge
Perturabo is really interesting to me
Also, agreed.
I read hammer of Olympia. I almost cried at the end, I have the mobi if you want
And i found storm of Iron! :3c
Man all I wanted is for Peter to be happy
Now he will never be..
pulsar cairn
something i think about
his adoptive father used him for war and all that and he hated it
BUT
he did love Perturabo
some folks say he should have speaked up
instead of being quiet and angry about it
pulsar cairn
Also, agreed.
I read hammer of Olympia. I almost cried at the end, I have the mo...
i want it
pulsar cairn
that just makes it even sadder that perturabo went through all that he did
u think this scenario happens often in 40k?
ebon forge
Against Iron warriors, possibly
ebon forge
<:vicksyThink:996566524225663086> that just makes it even sadder that perturabo...
YEEEEEEAH...
MF became a Daemon Prince
Tho his reasoning are very unique
he wants to give order to Chaos
Good fucking luck
naive abyss
Ngl the fancy version is great
I find it hilarious they're dancing around the fact there's a lady Knight
Also it's weird how they keep talking about old world and end times like they're distinct settings
pine matrix
It is a little strange, I wonder if they want to clear the way for a different future?
naive abyss
I doubt it considering how many lengths they've gone to to not touch the end times canon
Like the revival is three hundred years prior and most of the pre existing characters people liked now just don't exist lol
Like I'm glad were getting something in arguably my favourite fantasy setting again. But I feel it's also pretty clear that GW does not want to touch or even get near the end times. Likely in part due to fear of it messing with aos lol
past sphinx
Deathwing is a quite good spacehulk game
really nails the vibe
i think would feel quite good as a VR experiance
floral herald
It’s fun if you have a full crew
Managing the AI is kinda whack but it’s fun with humans
upper canopy
In 40K at least there isn’t really a “minor chaos god” the closest thing is prob...
Hi im very late but the Raptor God is very explicitly a minor chaos God
floral herald
Oh true
upper canopy
They are a thing just in general 40k is more boring about religion as a world building tool
So they come up less
naive abyss
Lol yeah
bright dove
In my digging through Age of Sigmar stuff, I have to say that I really dig the Seraphon
They're rad as heck
naive abyss
Lol it helps that they changed very little from oldhammer beyond becoming even more magic
pastel rampart
"We have MORE space lasers now!"
jaunty dawn
I think there is kinda a difference between these jungle dwelling lizards are actually space lizards and the faction just being the space lizards in full space-iness
to me anyway
pastel rampart
naive abyss
I think there is kinda a difference between these jungle dwelling lizards are ac...
Well the thing is they are also still jungle lizards
proud wing
https://fxtwitter.com/NornQueenKya/status/1737136274618646695
well it's sort of a weird situation, where Warhammer is becoming mainstream, so a lighthearted tone could make it more approachable to families, but for decades everything in the setting has been built around the identity "to live in such times is to be in the cruelest regime imaginable" where half the factions literally live off of torture
junior robin
ok, hear me out, what if we made 40k more lighthearted but exported all xeno armies that fit into HH and kept the grimdark.
upper canopy
well it's sort of a weird situation, where Warhammer is becoming mainstream, so ...
True but also kids have been getting into 40k since literally the 80s
Most 40k media is like a little gorey but otherwise kids have been watching "Guy gets shot/blown up" media for decades now
Like I loved Jurassic Park as a kid and people get straight up eaten alive on screen
naive abyss
I don't mind there being cute art in meta contexts like that one
pastel rampart
Kids loved Robocop and it got a goddamn cartoon and that movie was your typical Paul Verhoeven ultragorefest.
naive abyss
But I feel cutefying in setting stuff would be weird
naive abyss
Kids loved Robocop and it got a goddamn *cartoon* and that movie was your typica...
All those xenomorph and predator toys lol
pastel rampart
A return to some goofiness would be nice, which GW has been off and on about for a while now. Dunno if it'll ever go back to the bright primary colors of the 90s though.
And yeah christ the Aliens toys, I had a bunch of those as a kid well before I ever saw the movies.
Then I did and for like a week straight I was afraid there was a facehugger hiding under my blanket.
upper canopy
40k adults just wanna be smug about their content being unapproachable when Dawn of War was a game that kids could play easily
pastel rampart
You gotta balance the grimdark with something else, otherwise it becomes a miserable slug that only the smuggest dipshits revel in.
naive abyss
Mm mm
pastel rampart
The fandom knows what's up though, they do goofy shit all the time.
bright dove
Dawn of War got me into 40k, at the age of 10 or so
naive abyss
Like how that one oldhamner art is in grime style but depicts a troll vomiting on people
That shits silly, grim, and cool/fun
naive abyss
Dawn of War got me into 40k, at the age of 10 or so
Mood
upper canopy
I think Warhammer Adventurers was weird but mainly because I think the writing for it was bad
uneven ember
Kids loved Robocop and it got a goddamn *cartoon* and that movie was your typica...
That was a whole weird time.
The Toxic Avenger got a cartoon show. The goddamn Troma film
naive abyss
Are those the kid books?
pastel rampart
That was a whole weird time.
The Toxic Avenger got a cartoon show. The goddamn T...
And video games!
naive abyss
Or well "kid" books
upper canopy
The "racism is good, actually" books
naive abyss
Like most warhammer novels at most are young adult I feel lol
thin ibex
Tried to make a themed planetary defense force
naive abyss
The "racism is good, actually" books
Woof
pastel rampart
Like most warhammer novels at most are young adult I feel lol
The Horus Heresy series is the largest young adult book series ever created, in this essay I will
uneven ember
& yeah I do feel like more of the lore just really needs to lean all the way into "this is the setting where space-elves whose guns shoot ninja stars fight ancient Egyptian robots lead by a dude named 'Imotek' this is the goofiest thing anyone's ever done"
long void
Just stop making space marines clean and angelic
bright dove
When you have things like that, you don't even have to directly state things are silly
long void
put them back into the grime
naive abyss
& yeah I do feel like more of the lore just really needs to lean all the way int...
It's part of why I'm so fond of the original fantasy setting
It's so grimey but also just goofy and fun
bright dove
I like both Fantasy and AoS
long void
This isn't official GW art, but it's a great parody from the early 90s gaming scene.
solemn gull
Hell yeah
uneven ember
"The space alien oranutan builds palm-sized laser canons so a dude in a buckled Pilgrim hat can shoot a giant green football hooligan who talks in a comedic Cockney accent."
long void
2e had the vortex grenades just pop open holes into the warp.
Very devastating to whatever was in range.
solemn gull
They got banned in tournaments lmao
long void
RIP to RNG fun
bright dove
The space dwarves are communist capitalists
solemn gull
Can’t decide if I like goofy 40k or Blanche 40k more
thin ibex
Space wolves used to be able to instant kill land Raiders and other tanks by making a crack in the world
I'm kinda glad space wolves can't do that anymore
solemn gull
Space wolves used to be able to instant kill land Raiders and other tanks by mak...
Deepstriking terminators
Sorry
Scouts with terminator armour
thin ibex
Week the Terminator wasn't a scout, he was just leading them! 😉
solemn gull
Right
long void
It's not like goofy 40k can't make commentary on eternal war and tyranny.
solemn gull
True but I love the style of Blanche
bright dove
Silly things are good commentary
thin ibex
I don't think 40k needs to be just goofy, it's just that goofy has a place in it
solemn gull
I almost squealed when I saw he painted a necromunda gang recently
thin ibex
It's not like you can't vascillate between tones
uneven ember
I don't think there's necessarily a contradiction, really.
Having a spaceship the size of a city whose futuristic technology is operated by work crews of galley slaves pulling on cables like something out of the Napoleonic War is both grim and goofy.
spice flicker
https://pastebin.com/mdU3RBa8
If you are putting the nameless commander with the crisis squad you don't really need that shield generator (on the commander) and might want to consider swapping it out for another weapon.
past sphinx
2e had the vortex grenades just pop open holes into the warp.
Very devastating ...
we still have those
albiet in necromunda
somehow the bum fights division of the 40k universe occasionally have better kit that marines lmao
Anything caught inside the blast is instantly dead
floral herald
Perks of living in a huge weapons factory
past sphinx
Necromundans are simply built different
out here one handing plasma cannon
sadly only the escher get those off rip but the market may be kind
proud wing
the eldar also have guns that make temporary warp holes
thin ibex
iirc the wrathguard gun, D-Cannons, used to be mortally terrifying on the table
proud wing
they are very good at dealing with anything you'd prefer not to continue having atoms
past sphinx
D-cannons, good old roll on a table guns
sometimes you just get launched into the air and come down on your roof
sometimes youd teleport
sometimes black hole
floral herald
I don’t remember d-cannons doing that was that a 2e thing?
thin ibex
"I hit you, and you just die. I didn't ask about wounds. Then again i guess just about everything only has one wound"
past sphinx
simply get put underground 10 meters idiot
past sphinx
James just dont have this kinda dawg in him anymore
Terminator deepstrike scatterdie however
thin ibex
tbh, i get why its gone, but i do miss deep strike scatter die
its a bit silly to lose your terminators because they teleported into a rock
but also it really communicated how teleporters were unreliable beasts at the best of times
past sphinx
simply losing your men entirely to the warp was a real bitch of an operation
desert jay
Simply avoid teleporting near rocks
long void
I think 3e dropped the random table, but came up with a "you have to guess the range" rule
past sphinx
guess weapons was a good vibe
long void
there was something where the rules didn't want you to pre-measure, and accept if your shooting declaration was an inch short
past sphinx
because i was a tradesmen at the time and could eyeball that shit like nothing
long void
I suppose it had to go, like with the Chaos Orb card in Magic: The Gathering requiring a physical flip
we still have the randomness of charge dice though.
uneven ember
Anyway if you wanted to teleport Terminators in just give one of your dudes a Teleportation Homer
floral herald
Good luck haha homers were so rare in 4e
proud wing
random charge dice is one of the most baffling design decisions in the game imo
floral herald
I think like scout squads and a kind of rhino you had to buy from forge world were it
uneven ember
Could you not normally take it on characters?
My High Marshal and Jump Chaplain definitely took them back in the day.
thin ibex
homers are kinda fun now in 10th, they don't do the same thing for termies
floral herald
No at least not in 5e
thin ibex
but essentially they let you immediately teleport back to your DZ
floral herald
Was an option some units got not on the wargear list
I think it may have been in the 4e space marine book which still had a central wargear catalogue
uneven ember
Yeah, it's in 4th. 5 points.
long void
random charge dice is one of the most baffling design decisions in the game imo
I haven't played since pre-8th, but is melee engagement really good compared to shooting?
since melee means no other units can shoot into the fight
uneven ember
(And since I didn't get a rules update until the Templars got folded back into the main SM Codex I kept that going for a minute)
floral herald
Random charges were brought in to make melee a little riskier I think
Since there were a lot of units which had long deterministic charge ranges
past sphinx
Random charge can feel extremely bad, atleast in munda you move the distance
probably puts you in a terrible spot but hey you got closer atleast
thin ibex
i feel like in 10th, its a lot easier to get into melee, and melee is generally a bit less lethal
cause overwatch isn't a "everyone can do it" situation
i do wish 1st company heroes was a better detachment, but I DO like that it has interactions with battleshock
jaunty dawn
melee used to be pretty key
its been struggling in 10th though
mostly a case of melee can flip an objective in time for you next command phase and shooting somone can't
also pile in cheese. 10th limited it a lot and ppl were upset lol
thin ibex
yeah, i think its still valuable, but its a lot harder to just built hard into elite melee and expect it to lawnmower everything the same as it did in 8th and 9th
i think they're absolutely still strong in the game, but they critically do not, generally, go above str 8 or 9 unless they are a vehicle or monster in melee
i know its not at all meta, but i actually really like the idea of land raider laden with assault intercessors who have ancients attached. Why? To charge onto an objective, kill a few guys, but then dominate the point via 3 OC per model
the enemy unit meant to hold the objective doesn't even need to die
floral herald
It’s good that melee isn’t super centralizing in this edition imo
thin ibex
i agree
though i do think in lieu of that, there's a strong focus on gunplatform vehicles as the main firepower of many armies
which isn't... actually necessarily all that bad
bright dove
Yeah, that seems fine.
thin ibex
the sky rays are totally a thing still
but not hte hammerheads
i liked the big gatling gun hammerheads personally
but they are also gone
past sphinx
i do wonder why
thin ibex
they were forgeworld werent they?
past sphinx
granted a lot of tau FW stuff is gone for good i believe
past sphinx
they were forgeworld werent they?
aye
thin ibex
yeah they seem neat, but not to be seen on the modern field
honestly the sky ray is still good, but i think triple hammerhead is beating it out as a meta army strategy
because 3 railguns are an authority on firepower domination it would seem
very good at taking away toys
thin ibex
i very much miss those too
once a fire mode, then a stratagem, and now i think its nothing at all
i think ive become set on getting a stormsurge, just depends on WHEN really
it feels like a betrayal, but its a great way to fill points and give me a T10+ model
pulsar cairn
thin ibex
Random aeldari listing
bright dove
It feels weird to me to not see a Plasma weapon for the Guardians, but that might be older editions talking to me.
The missile launcher is better versatility to be sure.
thin ibex
I could take a starcannon but the Eldar missile launcher feels like it's just a real good multi purpose weapon
bright dove
Indeed.
thin ibex
I don't think I've ever been familiar with Eldar with plasma, how long ago was that?
bright dove
A good bit.
It was a common take to handle Space Marines for a better point trade off.
While also helping with the common Tyranid Godzilla lists that were around.
thin ibex
That definitely makes sense, these days I think starcannons str Eldar plasma equivalent, but no overcharging
They just shoot at str 8
bright dove
Yep yep, high strength, AP 2.
thin ibex
tbh ive never seen a lot of reason to take them, as 2 shot heavy weapons with 2 damage
but i guess if i know im fighting a lot o marines, it might pay dividends
floral herald
Yeah that’s a meq killer
tired cairn
probably, i have vauge memorys of them and war walkers around that time
I like to imagine that that text is saying the unit is placed 10m above the board and not as an in-universe measurement
tired cairn
but essentially they let you immediately teleport back to your DZ
Wasn't that 9th? 10th they let you rapid deploy for free near them
thin ibex
Wasn't that 9th? 10th they let you rapid deploy for free near them
ah yeah i think you might be right? this is the 10th ability
tired cairn
If I was the enemy I would simply blow up the teleport homer
Though I guess you can just camp it
thin ibex
theres always the question of how much value do you get, really, out of overwatching arriving terminators
really solid chance whatever you shoot will just bounce off
though in the same note, killing even 1 terminator improves your survival chances significantly
spice flicker
So if I wanted to do an oops all terminators (or almost all terminators) list what army would you suggest? Custodes? Grey Knights? Dark angels?
mental birch
If you are putting the nameless commander with the crisis squad you don't really...
Oops forgot to remove that thanks
bright dove
Dark Angels are probably the most friendly to All Terminators based purely off lore knowledge.
mental birch
Wait
spice flicker
Oops forgot to remove that thanks
No problem
bright dove
And it's hard to call Custodes all anything, considering there's not many of 'em on the battlefield generally.
spice flicker
It's a shield drone
Ah I misread that then but point stansa change it to a gun drone imo.
mental birch
Why? Firepower boost seems very incidental
floral herald
The iconic all termies thing is Deathwing
upper canopy
Yeah
also
I wanna write a drabble for 40k and maybe specifically some marines
what should I write
thin ibex
So if I wanted to do an oops all terminators (or almost all terminators) list wh...
I believe currently, grey knights treat terminators as battleline units and can readily do Oops All terminators
Once upon a time the standard GK was in fact the Terminator, and strike teams were satellite to the main line Terminator thing
spice flicker
GK Terminators can also take a guy that's let's them revive a model a turn right?
thin ibex
Don't remember tbh
But their Detachment does go far in helping with terminators slow mobility
Their biggest issue is lacking access to strength 10+ weapons
spice flicker
And somewhat dated looking models compared to other Terminators
thin ibex
Mostly just cause they didn't get the refresh for 10th edition that sm are getting
They do have a very cool aesthetic
Love their helmets
brittle salmon
Yeah, GK's lack of lascannons is flat out the biggest issue they have
desert jay
I still find it hilarious that Exactly Ten Deathwing Knights is a legal list for Boarding Action at 470 points
floral herald
They can do ok with their high strength melee and that +1 to wound thing but its still a weakness
thin ibex
Their most accessible anti tank comes from melee on dreadknights, and lascannon on land Raiders
And yeah, taking as many chaplains as possible
desert jay
GK also used to have anti-tank hammers AIUI but they lost those in 9e->10e
thin ibex
I thin the librarian also has a pretty gnarly mortal wound ability
brittle salmon
A competitively viable GK list is imo always allying in a Knight or Armiger Warglaives
thin ibex
You can also take a lascannon dread but they might be a Lil inefficient
upper canopy
what should I write
I've decided I shall write termies someone give me a location and an enemy
brittle salmon
death world, traitor scions
upper canopy
Bet
thin ibex
And somewhat dated looking models compared to other Terminators
i think currently they have the easiest time of fielding literally only terminators
thin ibex
brittle salmon
I think "Deathwing GK" with Armiger support is very viable
thin ibex
i think Space wolves can also do oops all termies because they have access to both wolf guard and normal terminators
it still bothers me that there are more stubber on marines and more hb on guard
naive abyss
im assuming you mean vehicles lol
thin ibex
oh yeah, just in terms of model representation
intercessors cant even bring a heavy bolter
but basic guard squads can
almost every vehicle on the guard roster comes with heavy bolters, a great many space marine vehicles only come with storm bolters and heavy stubbers
(as secondaries)
naive abyss
tbh in a way i feel that represents the doctrine tendencies of both
one to an extent wants stuff that is lighter and moves faster
the other is going "no strap bigger guns to that and dig this trench deeper"
if that makes sense
thin ibex
yeaaaah, it just feels off to me in that... stubbers are the platonic 50 cal, heavy bolters are like this heavier beast of a thing; you would naturally think you'd see a lot more stubbers in the guard because of how they're man portable
but they don't show up on any infantry squads
and only show up on pintle mounts for tanks
meanwhile, space marines have a dreadnought with twin stubbers mounted on its head
to be clear, I like the heavy stubbers, i think they actually look pretty good
but also its weird to me, and feels wrong, that they are ALL OVER space marine stuff
and an afterthought on guard in general
floral herald
I am having trouble telling how important this is haha
thin ibex
i 100% think that guardsmen squads should be allowed to bring heavy stubbers rather than heavy bolter teams
brittle salmon
It'd be objectively worse though
floral herald
Forge World had those, though they were basically just a "cheapest possible option" or fluff choice
tired cairn
Is there a reason for the "must make it against an enemy operative in Cover" clause?
those look hilarious
naive abyss
Forge World had those, though they were basically just a "cheapest possible opti...
man i forgot how much these were just straight up ww2 guns
like thats a mg42 without its drum mag you cant trick me FW
floral herald
Is there a reason for the "must make it against an enemy operative in Cover" cla...
Stops you from wasting it I guess
tired cairn
Seems more appropriate as a note than a rule
floral herald
Yeah the wording is a little weird but it doesn't penalize you really
thin ibex
It'd be objectively worse though
Oh it absolutely would be, but like, you could easily balance that out with quantity or tags or other means rather than just setting on "the heavy bolter is just better so they should have heavy bolters"
people don't even take the heavy bolters on them as is
on the heavy weapons teams or the infantry squads
I just think heavy stubbers make more sense to the faction
seeing as once upon a time, space marines had more common access to heavy bolters but nowadays even their basic infantry blocks can't access it without taking heavy intercessors or 1st born devastators
also, a heavy stubber probably wouldn't need to be rolled around on wheels, with massive, heavy ammunition
upper canopy
death world, traitor scions
I had to take a shower and do chores and I forgot you said "Death world"
“Courage, honor, wroth!” We replied back in chorus, powerfists raised in vainglorious assertion of our supremacy.
The countdown appeared on our displays, some prayed in mumbled whispers, some closed their eyes and waited. Even among the first company, they knew better than to cross the Emperyean unsteeled and unbarred.
00:00:00, a flash of light coincides.
We drop into the Helhawks’ command structure, and immediately a kill-count of 3 registers on our feeds. An unfortunate trio of soldiers were evaporated by our insertion. I enjoy the expediency.
Stormbolters ring shots out, and the hardened veterans we face scramble for cover. Some, tainted by the Plague God, welcome our approach, slithering towards us to embrace us as kin. They are left as naught but green-and-yellow smears in less than 3 twinned-heartbeats.```
Five Bolts end a servitor's miserable existence as I wheel about. Only with experience am I able to survive the next fractious moment, recognizing a grenade launcher when I see it, wielded by a sinuous, mantis-like Scion of deepest purple. They place four kraks where my head was but moments ago. My weapon arm is riddled instead, forcing a pain represent influx as it is broken in 10 places from the concussive blasts. They do not survive this transgression, taking a bolt to the neck courtesy of Battle-Brother Iulvan.
With their momentary reprieve, the Helhawks scatter to battle positions and begin to hunker and fortify their positions. Those of them too mutated to coordinate are used as fodder, to lope and fly and slither at our position to buy the sane and able time. Soon the battle begins in earnest, and reinforcements from deeper in the facility begin to pour into the command structure. They bring with them heavy weapons, lascannons, meltas, plasma, krak, anything to crack our bastion of righteous fury.
Let them gather all the weapons and blessing their foul masters bequeathed them.
They will need it all. Every charge pack, grenade, plasma cartridge, bolt, spell, slave, every last drop of twisted fortitude they may still claim to have.
They’ll need it to survive me.
The weight of their sins is four-hundred kilograms of adamantine and faith.```i will say to black library
bolter porn is really easy to write with out thinking too much
i'm not surprised it's so prevelant
brittle salmon
Hell yeah
naive abyss
if this is real im surprised the cover is blue ngl lol
im so use to them being red for fantasy
naive abyss
oops all heros
pastel rampart
Herohammer returns.
pastel rampart
upper canopy
YEA
naive abyss
vibe
grand vigil
Do grey knights have techmarines?
jaunty dawn
8th edition codex says yeah
it's like a DA situation where they're untrusted by the chapter though
and rarely go into battle
proud wing
grey knights identity of "secret independent elite task force" has kinda faded into just "space marines but psykers"
jaunty dawn
I mean they still have their own forge world
deimos the moon of mars was just yoinked and placed in orbit of titan
and they use servitors to ferry cargo between
thin ibex
honestly i think the grey knights being secret elite bois is actually still their thing
jaunty dawn
techmarines were also mentioned in the 5th edition codex as being responsible for the creation of nemesis force weapons
topaz elk
its also like, tech marines are still kinda needed for a chapter to function
no matter how secretive
jaunty dawn
(and the 5th edition codex is basically what made grey knights a full faction)
not just squads that could be attached to other armies
thin ibex
yeah, techmarines exist because the chapter armory exists
also greay knight techmarines are psykers
and likely exist per brotherhood
i do think its cool that, thanks to the detachment rule for GK, the downside of being slow as terminators is largely mitigated
thin ibex
heres a silly oops all terminator list
3 units of wolf guard terminators, all with wolf guard pack leaders, 1 with logan and arjac, another with njall, and the last with a captain and wolf guard battle leader
and all 3 with ancients
nets you 9 missile launchers alongside all their melee upgrades
past sphinx
DO YE LOVE THA EMPEROR WITH ALL YER HEART SONNY
YOU WILL
this model is 26 years old and has some proper scrungle
crisp lance
glossy vapor
Hey those are necrons! that means a probably instant and painless death, for a guardsman thats a jackpot. /s
crisp lance
Hey those are necrons! that means a probably instant and painless death, for a g...
my honest reaction.
glossy vapor
thats the probably.
jaunty dawn
he's just a big guy
jaunty dawn
he fucked up the rock and stole stuff
he collected the old one things the dark angels used to do a weird time paradox and used it to make a webway tunnel and stole The Key
and now he's looking for The Lock so he can open it and get The Weapon
If he succeeds he will be equal in power to the four
upper canopy
Specifically he rebuilt caliban into a world engine named Wyrmwood that let's him make NEW web way tunnels
A thing that is by the standards of the setting impossible and absolutely breaks logistics
And he's gifting it to Abbadon as per their deal
So Chaos is winning super hard
Solely because of him
ebon forge
Wh-
Where the fuck he came from?!
ebon forge
oh
huh
Wait, shit, if he gets those weapons do you think we would be getting our version of endtimes?
jaunty dawn
I think it's about as likely as ynnari ever getting the last cronesword
upper canopy
I mean he doesn't need any weapon
He can park a black crusade on terras doorstep
And the Eldar are the only ones remotely able to stop him
thin ibex
Didn't wormwood get absolutely shrekked at the end of the arks saga?
The angels had to evacuate off of it because it was falling apart or whatever
upper canopy
Didn't wormwood get absolutely shrekked at the end of the arks saga?
Nope
it just went into the webway
It's still completely functional
desert jay
he collected the old one things the dark angels used to do a weird time paradox ...
Oh right there was a big whole plot arc about The Arks
thin ibex
Ah, was the info about the web way a detail in the actual stories? The lexicanum bears no mention of it, but I understand the lexicanum isn't always complete
desert jay
AIUI, community consensus is that the lore in the campaign books usually kinda sucks so there's kinda a phase of waiting around for it to be rewritten for novels
upper canopy
Yeah it was
desert jay
But also it's kinda a mess sometimes, like there was a story gap between Cadia Stands (2017) and Cadian Honor (2018) for years until Fall of Cadia (2023)
ebon forge
I think it's about as likely as ynnari ever getting the last cronesword
ouch
'Read the nightlord novels' they said
'It is great' they said
Ok but
'As he grinned, his eyes leaked tears of oily blood. The dark tears ran cold down a face as pale as porcelain, showing every vein beneath in thick, black cables. Muscles in his face strained and his tear ducts tingled. The Exalted was not used to smiling. It had been too long since entertainment of this calibre had been forthcoming, and better yet, the Warmaster was watching.'
OH MY GOD THE EDGE HURTS
abstract pier
'Read the nightlord novels' they said
'It is great' they said
Ok but
'As he gri...
The Aaron Dembski one?
ebon forge
The Aaron Dembski one?
yes!
abstract pier
pats your shoulder
It does not get better
ebon forge
I heard is fantastic, even for non Night Lord fans
ebon forge
Oh yeah you really need to know what you want to read and what to avoid
Like how I heard most Vulkan/Salamander books are
bad
And how they did the Farsight book dirty too
ebon forge
Yeah
Yeah...
Pariah Nexus was good for the Salamanders tho
abstract pier
I believe it
All i know is i want to play some TTRPG of 40k because the rogue trader game came out but you just are the rogue trader
upper canopy
That is the rogue trader ttrpg
abstract pier
Which is cool, but i feel like I HAVE to play an officer in that game
ebon forge
I have the Wrath and Glory pdfs, and you can play as a Astarte there
as well as a ORK
abstract pier
I have the Wrath and Glory pdfs, and you can play as a Astarte there
~~as well a...
So do I. I like the scaling of it all
it's neat
abstract pier
That is the rogue trader ttrpg
Yes, but in the TTRPG you can play as any of the classes, yaknow?
ebon forge
it's *neat*
Same
now to actually play the damn thing
abstract pier
Could run it
But i ran it already
And of course got a chud that snuck in
When my buddy (who is a cis dude) was playing a SOB the chud called him a few slurs in DMs
ebon forge
U r g h
abstract pier
like, listen
Space marines are cool
But a woman in armor who can and will just fucking murder the enemies of the emperor of mankind while singing hymns?
It tempts me.
Like, who doesn't want to play that?
and yes, sure, i could play a Eclisiarchy priest
but SoB!
ebon forge
Yes
SoB is quite metal
But excuse me the moment you allow me to play as a Ork
I will WAAAAAGH
abstract pier
Yuh
I had a weirdboy navigator once
That was super fun to play as a RT with a ORK navigator
abstract pier
I think my biggest issue with the game is i cannot respec my character's class
also @ebon forge may i DM you some 40k memes?
ebon forge
PLease do
Also, yeah, love the game, but for main character, is hard not to be an officer, even if I go spycker, being able to give a free half turn and then a full turn to a companion is just
Too stronk
past sphinx
should i pick up rouge trader? ive enjoyed past owlcat games but i think that was mostly due to havig enjoyed the adventure moduals they where based on
abstract pier
should i pick up rouge trader? ive enjoyed past owlcat games but i think that wa...
Depends on what you're looking for honestly
It feels very good, has good customization and combat, and feels very 40k for newbies
ebon forge
should i pick up rouge trader? ive enjoyed past owlcat games but i think that wa...
I say yes, been really fun lately.
The officer – quite deaf now – hurriedly drew a pistol in shaking hands and fired it point-blank into Xarl’s face. The small slug pinged against the ceramite, knocking Xarl’s head back a little before ricocheting with a wet crack back into the man’s own forehead.
A
unreal cosmos
ebon forge
looking good
jaunty dawn
ooh
mark 5
kinda assumed we'd get apothecary in the plastic command squad next year though?
thin ibex
you know i didn't actually hate the farsight book
thin ibex
you could almost field it as a different titan on the tabletop
and it comes fully assembled
and posable
Tried to make a "Full Dark Angels Rep" list
currently i don't think Asmodeus can attach to anything beyond a tactical squad though, so he isn't present
upper canopy
This is incredibly funny
mental birch
Hmm?
thin ibex
yeah you could field that toy as a reaver titan probably
they sit at the same height give or take a couple cm
actually
its taller
warlord titan?
mental birch
Still funny but yeah first 'reveal' is here
upper canopy
The sparse English can be interpreted many ways
floral herald
should i pick up rouge trader? ive enjoyed past owlcat games but i think that wa...
I’m waiting for more patches I’ve heard it’s good but has some serious bugs
I also haven’t finished BG3 yet
soft willow
I have been playing it and it’s mostly okay through the first couple of chapters.
A little rough but not game breakingly so.
Past that? It gets bad quickly.
Give them a few months to patch out the game breaking bugs.
The ones that halt your ability to progress, or cause other save is dead to you issues.
It's probably the best of Owlcat's games, but that's not setting the bar that high.
ebon forge
you know i didn't actually hate the farsight book
I heard they butchered his character, but glad you like it~!
ebon forge
The ones that halt your ability to progress, or cause other save is dead to you ...
When the unit gets stuck in combat, go to the 'report a bug' tab, start it then closes it.
it gets un-stuck
But as someone that played Baldur's Gate 3 and gave up
Rogue Trader been pretty fun
thin ibex
I heard they butchered his character, but glad you like it~!
I don't want to disparage fans, but I do think a lot of fans have a VERY rosey view of who Farsight is, and I think there's a fan sentiment of desperately wanting him to be an uncomplicated, unnuanced Good Guy who fights for Freedom
ebon forge
I don't want to disparage fans, but I do think a lot of fans have a VERY rosey v...
I understand that, might be again a case of 'what they hear about the character' vs 'the actual character'
Like how a lot of people break their face when they see the real Dorn after only watching TTS
thin ibex
xD
ebon forge
Magnus is exactly what I though he is tho /j
floral herald
I don't want to disparage fans, but I do think a lot of fans have a VERY rosey v...
40k is such a weird setting for the number of fans who just have barely interacted directly with 1st party material
ebon forge
Because the 1st party material can be expensive as hecc
Like
Try to convince a video game player to buy a 60$ figurine that's barely 8cm tall that he have to assembly and paint himself
mental birch
Farsight is still El Generallisimo of a military junta rump state
floral herald
Try to convince a video game player to buy a 60$ figurine that's barely 8cm tall...
I’m talking about novels lol
mental birch
Why do you think he still called Commander
ebon forge
I’m talking about novels lol
Try to convince your average gamer to Read
mental birch
We're warhammer players we're illiteratw
floral herald
Try to convince your average gamer to ***Read***
Why are you assuming I meant gamer
ebon forge
And half still think Dorn have a mustache
ebon forge
Why are you assuming I meant gamer
Because I think the main audience of 40k are young adults and/or massive nerds
And gamers fall in that category
pulsar cairn
like u and me
floral herald
Seems like a weirdly dismissive response honestly “oh yeah those people are morons”
ebon forge
No.
It is a way to say "So most of the people wanting to get into 40k usually don't like to read books, so is common that they get their lore from memes and youtube videos"
I never said 'They don't read books ergo, morons"
floral herald
Try to convince your average gamer to ***Read***
Are you kidding me lol, how is this not shitting on this hypothetical gamer?