Warhammer and Such

[thin ibex]

as much as i miss being able to bring a crisis commander into a fucking small team skirmish, i think new KT is a better, low scope/low tier game

[solemn gull]

Interesting

Is it more competitive?

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

it's like

[solemn gull]

Seems like it’s an arena game

[jaunty dawn]

'the 40k competative game'

[proud wing]

the structure is sort of like XCOM

[thin ibex]

its very much a skirmish game

[proud wing]

where you have a small group of units but need to be careful about how they move to take advantage of the terrain and objectives

[solemn gull]

I’m much more a fan of narrative play

[floral herald]

Its one of GWs most competitive offerings imo

[solemn gull]

Back into the depths of necromunda

[proud wing]

kill team has narrative play modes

[thin ibex]

It's also got a crusade narrative mode

which i think is quite cool

[jaunty dawn]

it also handles 6-15 model kill teams pretty damn well

[thin ibex]

and would like to play sometime

[jaunty dawn]

which is not something many skirmish games handle great haha

[thin ibex]

i like hte idea of leveling up my pathfinder operatives as individual characters

iand imagining them in their home base or camp doing prep n stuff

[jaunty dawn]

by using a mix of elite units that get 50% more actions and overwatch and chaff units that activate two at a time

[spice flicker]

I think I found a new inspiration for a rival rogue trader or antagonistic inquisitor for the Rogue Trader ttrpg campaign I am working on: Lord Cutler Beckett from Pirates of the Caribbean.

[floral herald]

Oh yeah it does that pretty well to by “competitive” I mostly mean “balanced” personally

[thin ibex]

i think the rogue trader KT is one of hte main imperial ones im interestd in, aside from a space wolf or wolfspear Phobos team

[floral herald]

But it also has 1st party mission packs which make it way easier to set up comparable tournaments

[thin ibex]

incidentally i also need to acquire a bunch of the other stuff, like mission cards and tokens for KT at some point

cause i dont have those

but i couldn't find the mission cards ANYWHERE online sold seperately

so i may need to make them

[proud wing]

so is there any hypothetical way to defeat the chaos gods

or is the goal of the imperium just to last as long as they can

[spice flicker]

The latter until they find a way to do the former

[naive abyss]

There is just not with anything the imperium has going on

The crons in theory have the ability just not the means atm

[thin ibex]

Hypothetical? Sure, you starve them of belief and emotions. You can do this by killing literally everything, the emperor seemed to believe that they could calm the warp and best the dark gods by conquering the galaxy and cultivating a fully atheist society. Necrons seemed to think the best way was to simply remove their ability to intrude into the material realm at all

[past sphinx]

emps also thought he could hide humanity in the webway

do an ealdar again

[thin ibex]

Would the emperors plan have worked? We'll never know

[upper canopy]

You just run up and kill them

idk why the Emperor was too big of a pussy to think of that tbqh

[floral herald]

Kill every living being and wait infinity years

[thin ibex]

Do yall think, if the ctan were not shattered, that the nids would have enough time to adapt to building their own version of a the Blackstone Fortress weaponry?

Or would the ctan no-dif them too fast?

[floral herald]

They probably would

Tyranids are super psychic and super adaptable and already have huge space creatures

“Battleship sized ultra-zoanthrope” seems in their wheelhouse

[tired cairn]

Hmm, I feel like they are surprisingly few psychic based weapons in BFG or 40k ship lore more generally

[floral herald]

Psychic is just shorthand for being able generate warp beams here like the zoans can but yeah it’s rare

In BFG there’s just… hmm

Daemonships kind of count?

There’s the Giant Bone Space Gun in Lion

[thin ibex]

the question came from me thinking about it and like

ctan, especially the nightbringer i think, are the most powerful single entities in the entire 40k universe. (the unshattered versions)

[white mural]

That’s beautiful do!

I like your art style a lot

[alpine quarry]

Thanks -w-

[thin ibex]

im very much considering a stormsurge on the virtue of saving money to fill out a 2k point army lol

[proud wing]

3D printing is 100% the cheapest way to get a 2k point army

[thin ibex]

well, gotta get a 3d printer first

or pay a 3d printer

which does increase cost a bit

in the short term at least

[floral herald]

Also however much value your time spent debugging and cleaning the printer and such

Since they usually need a fair amount of care and tuning to consistently make nice things

[solemn gull]

Final things I painted for today

Yes I have been painting literally all day

[proud wing]

a 2k army costs at bare minimum $500. A decent 3D printer costs somewhere around $200, and the supplies for printing an army would almost always be under $100

there is the possibility of hassle associated with the technology

but some challenge getting your models in fighting condition has always been part of the hobby

[floral herald]

It's more of an expectation of hassle but yeah

[proud wing]

here's someone going over the costs of a 1K point army:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-JAzmKedJw

[thin ibex]

i think most decent 3d printers in the now are 200+, unless you can find some on sail prices

[proud wing]

fair

[thin ibex]

sale* woops

stormsurge by itself is a bit less than the average printer cost lol

[naive abyss]

this also assumes you have the space both for the printer and to properly ventilate whatever space its occupying

and dont mind workign exclusively with resin

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/VJRJ64

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/6NgKGN

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/XgwJ3L

[thin ibex]

i do guess that by having a stormsurge, ill always have it just like

[floral herald]

The savings are real but also there's downsides yeah

[thin ibex]

ready to go

[naive abyss]

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/lDdGzz

[floral herald]

I do think its particularly economic if you are playing either a huge horde army or one which uses a lot of forge world/expensive models

[naive abyss]

in my case therse also the thing of ive not found an lov baseline infantry stl i like the design of anywhere near as much as the actual gw models

[thin ibex]

i think theres probably plenty of tau or tau adjacent stuff potentially

but i think the startup cost is a bit too high compared to picking up the models i want bit by bit

and there's less hassle

i don't even know where id set up a printer

[naive abyss]

like im also a hobbyist so tbh just grabbing a box i like here and there works more than fine for me lol

[floral herald]

I think the coolest 3d printer project I've seen is Erika's imperial guard

[naive abyss]

its up there for sure

[floral herald]

Though this is not really a normal use case imo

[naive abyss]

tru

like sure if i knew how to 3d model stuff and had a 3d printer i could make my own specific 3d print lov which would be cool but i lack that skillset or space lol

[solemn gull]

I really like sculpting my own models

[floral herald]

That is I think the coolest use case for it

Especially for stuff which is prohibitively hard to hand sculpt

I had a friend in high school who made venomthropes out of green stuff directly

[solemn gull]

That sounds awesome

Also not sculpting but I don’t know the term for making your own stuff

Like the Youtube Channel Bill Making Stuff does

Random garbage into cool monsters

[rocky shale]

Kitbashing?

[solemn gull]

I guess but it’s not really model kits

https://youtu.be/NOWtjcl0O_s?si=3w4pztGgx-upIBA2

[proud wing]

that's just DIY

[jaunty dawn]

trashbashing

diy is the like

idk umbrella

[thin ibex]

Minimal to no actual marines on this chaos list, just a bunch of cursed and suffering fuckers

[naive abyss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diZRVlgmNFc&ab_channel=PancreasNoWork

[proud wing]

tzeentch is the least torture-y

[thin ibex]

Well, it depends on who you ask, tzeentch might be the most psychologically tortury and least physically tortury

Tzeentch will gaslight you and then affect yesterday to make it true after the fact

[naive abyss]

i mean idk how non physical torturey the god of "i feel like making you a screaming mash of flesh today" is ngl

hasthut is arguably the least torturery

at least to his followers

[floral herald]

I think Khorne is probably the least torture-y

You Are Mucking About if they're still alive wtf

[thin ibex]

Yeah I think khorne explicitly does not care about the pain inflicted, it's all about the actual murder/ killing

[floral herald]

Which I guess is kind of funny cause Angron is so psychologically tormented

Which, iirc, is part of their relationship?

Angron kind of "trusts" Khorne because Khorne is a straight shooter

And everyone else lied for their own ends

While Khorne is just like "KILL AND DIE IN MY NAME FOREVER AND EVER KILLING AND DYING RULES"

[bright dove]

I'd go for Grandpa Nurgle.

It's gonna be bad for a bit.

But then it'll take a turn and be fine. 😄

[thin ibex]

You know, people talk about the kriegs fearlessness, but we have textual support for the idea that a Salamander captain put genuine terror into a krieg officer korp

[glossy vapor]

so im gearing up to go buy paints to do some space marines as my first ever mini's, does anyone have good reccomendation for a list thats only a few paints, simply to keep the cost down.

[jaunty dawn]

what colour do you want them to be

[glossy vapor]

so im torn in a bunch of different directions

one idea was to go white scars as i really like their lore, but im more of a fan of grey+red with like, silver accents then red+white. and i cant find a good list online

I also am looking at painting some tau (essentially using some space marine mini's a freind gave up and gave me permission to use as a testbed before buying a $60 battlesuit to paint) so maybe paint up space marines in a tau sept color scheme.

[floral herald]

I think its less fearlessness and more lack of regard for their own lives

[bright dove]

The Ultrasmurf colors are simple and don't require a lot of colors.

[solemn gull]

I mean if a divine figure of your religion shook you and screamed “NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE NIGHTMARE” you would probably be spooked

[thin ibex]

oh for sure, i just think their fearlessness is often greatly exaggerated

by mega fans

[jaunty dawn]

they're only human

[solemn gull]

Krieg fans are such a mixed bag

[jaunty dawn]

just have a death complex

[solemn gull]

Too many shovel memes

[naive abyss]

i like the shovel meme tbh. cuz its just absurd and fun. like its generally harmless unlike weirdos yelling heresy or etc

[solemn gull]

It falls into “lol so wacky”

But yeah the “This [Thing] right here inquisitor” ones are bad too

[jaunty dawn]

wacky like how they wack the shovel hehe

[solemn gull]

WHEEZE

[bright dove]

Really digging these shovel jokes

[pastel rampart]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/395045560983224320/1184333982922461316/GBMARKqaMAAUC43.jpg?ex=658b97f9&is=657922f9&hm=3b192c8478b7a0d73e17f7cad1232f452202747fcb7275e6b68cf42bc5af2285&

[proud wing]

iirc, publicly stating that is quite a bit more illegal than murder

[white mural]

Putting together the little guys is fun

[desert jay]

And here I thought it was illegal for the Emperor to not be one’s favorite in a qualified category

Do you like potatoes more than the Emperor, huh Mr Space Marines?

[unreal cosmos]

that's what it's all about baby

one of my earliest Warhammer experience was helping my now-wife cobble together some ork boyz and like, figuring out what each one's Deal was as they came together

[white mural]

Used the spare hypermorph head on the Acolyte leader

[desert jay]

I got curious and oh boy The End and the Death vol 3 is next month

[glossy vapor]

went to a LGS, gathered all the paints i needed, got a almost triple digit price tag (admittedly did not need that varnish can), found a very nice document on translating citadel colors to equivalents from other brands, looked at other paint brands like Vallejo and their price

are citadel paints a scam?

well not scam, but like, their priced like $15% more for 30% less paint.

[solemn gull]

yes

[grand vigil]

Y'all ever think mechanicus uses ecigs?

[wide wind]

They pour vape liquid straight into their lungs.

[jaunty dawn]

censers

[grand vigil]

Hookahs them

[ebon forge]

Skitter
I love skavens so fucking much

[jaunty dawn]

dragoons ecig so hard they're harder to hit

[pine matrix]

That rules. I wish I'd had a better time with Blood Bowl, I enjoy it's silliness

[naive abyss]

https://vxtwitter.com/BitsHammer/status/1734931594975305972?t=v4gYiSuLkdKZR6-_uU9z8w&s=19

This has reminded me that the HH khan also has no bike lol

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/163913032/black-powder-and-brimstone?ref=clipboard-prelaunch

https://vxtwitter.com/BenjaminTobitt/status/1684875402496352256?t=5iQaq-HaJyyJGa0As8f_Dg&s=19

[bright dove]

Look, if they can do rocket science over in Total War, then I'll accept they made smartphones.

[pine matrix]

Am I remembering correctly that Gotrek and Felix at one point stop a Skaven rocket launch? Or did I imagine that?

In Blood Bowl where shit is slightly less fucked, have the Skaven successfully had a lunar mission?

[ebon forge]

Mork Borg...

[tired cairn]

I guess it makes sense blood bowl is a separate universe. But I never considered it lol

[pulsar cairn]

https://tenor.com/view/neco-arc-bubbles-carnival-phantasm-nod-space-i-think-gif-27334525

[upper canopy]

The only Skaven rocket I know of is in TWW 2

[tired cairn]

In some sense the Skaven had a successful lunar mission in End Times

During the End Times, Clan Skryre of the Skaven decided to destroy the Dark Moon, sending its debris crashing down upon the Lizardmen. However, it inadvertently killed the rest of the Skaven in the process, along with the population of the entire New World continent of Lustria.

Most successful Skaven plot

[pine matrix]

It is quite likely I am confused

[pine matrix]

Of all the stuff in the End times, Skaven blowing up to moon has to be the best thing they did

Have they done any similar whacky bullshit in AoS?

[tepid stratus]

Tunneling through the warp between realms, blowing up black pyramids, messing up Nagash's ultimate ritual causing the necroquake.

[tired cairn]

Was that by accident?

[upper canopy]

I will admit that the funniest part of the Skaven blowing up the moon is the fact that it only resulted in the apocalypse it did because ANOTHER group of Skaven used a tractor beam to bring the moon closer at the same time

[tired cairn]

My favorite part of tunneling is sometimes they mess up and gnaw into the bottom of an ocean

[pine matrix]

Ohhh I forgot about the necroquake being from Skaven interference, that's so great

[pulsar cairn]

why did they try to bring the moon closer

[upper canopy]

Look at it

[pulsar cairn]

they think the moon is made of cheese?

[upper canopy]

Also so more warpstone would rain from the sky

[tired cairn]

It's full of warp stone, yes yes

[pulsar cairn]

[pine matrix]

Why did Skaven do something? Because!

A lot of Warhammer pyrrhic victories are for dumb reasons, but if it's because of the Skaven doing something incredibly stupid? I can dig it

[obsidian flume]

It’s that meme about rats impulsively jumping into deep friers

But Nagash’s dark ritual

[pine matrix]

Nagash had beef with the Skaven back in the Old World, I wonder if he remembered that when his black pyramid was exploding

[upper canopy]

Literally the Skaven have been the thing fucking with Nagash from day one

The Skaven will always ultimately be incompetent villains EXCEPT against Nagash where they are, somehow, the protagonists and thus always win.

[pulsar cairn]

is there a faction who doesn't have a beef with skaven?

[pine matrix]

No

[pulsar cairn]

what do they do to nagash?

[upper canopy]

Nope

[pine matrix]

Skaven hate everybody, everybody hates them

[upper canopy]

They fuck him over

at every opprotunity

[pulsar cairn]

example

[pine matrix]

Vermintide 3, you play as Skaven fighting Nagash's undead legions

It's closer to L4D than ever

[tired cairn]

Do they do it intentionally or do they just accidently fuck him over lol

[upper canopy]

This is the most inspired sentence I've ever seen

[upper canopy]

Intentionally

Almost every major defeat Nagash has suffered in his life has been because of the Skaven.

The ONLY one is the beating he got from Sigmar.

[pulsar cairn]

tell me one

the one you think is the most funny

[pine matrix]

Every mission is the protagonists trying to run away but they keep blundering into some undead ritual or something

[upper canopy]

I mean the FUNNIEST one is them fucking over the necroquake completely by accident.

[pulsar cairn]

how did that happen?

[upper canopy]

They managed to gnaw into Nagash's black pyramid and the presence of like 5 Skaven in the ritual (who were immedaiately obliterated) added enough Chaos to completely inverse what Nagash wanted to do.

[tired cairn]

They just wanted to steal some realm stone lol

[upper canopy]

It's like "A rat has gotten into the fusebox of my ultimate doomsday rocket and chewed a wire, electrocuting itself to death but nuking me in the process"

[pulsar cairn]

so they fuck him over both on purpose and by accident

granted they wanted to fuck him over in that occasion just not in that way

they often steal his shit?

[upper canopy]

The story of how they killed Nagash the first time is less funny and more really dramatic

[pulsar cairn]

they killed him first?

this is starting to feel like Tom and Jerry and Nagash is Tom

[upper canopy]

They gave the greatest Nehekaran king to have ever lived (including Settra) a sword of indescribable might to kill him

And thus saved the entire world

[naive abyss]

?

[bright dove]

The Skaven love, love messing with Nagash

And it doesn't differ from how they mess with other people

It just works on Nagash because he never sees it coming

[naive abyss]

Local skeleton too full of himself to expect rats in his attic

[bright dove]

And it all started because Nagash was sitting on Warpstone mines

[naive abyss]

https://youtu.be/S39ZG3IZ_oc?si=D-DBqU7WT6cgSXJ3

[thin ibex]

The boss on squigasaur and the named version are so strong for orcs

Squighog Boyz are also very fun

[ebon forge]

Heya, does Nagash have any fun books?

I am going to finish reading the Betrayer soon and Nagash looks fun

[naive abyss]

I'd recommend his age of myth series

You get to see how he becomes the bone pope

[ebon forge]

what's the name of the series?

[naive abyss]

Time of legends: nagash

[junior robin]

finally, new tankbustaz /s

[naive abyss]

My guess is skaven lol

[gentle jetty]

Nagash The Undying King is good for AoS, shows how his long shadow is cast over his realm in the period where he wasn't quite in one piece

[junior robin]

the wreath-less picture shows it attacked to something at the bottom 🤔

ogor stick grenade maybe?

[pastel rampart]

Muppet, actually.

That's a mouth if I've ever seen one.

[junior robin]

GW finally listening to what the people demands

really wish poison wind globadiers skryer acolytes got a plastic kit, really love the old models but its $102.50 for a squad

[jaunty dawn]

one day skaven will exist

[junior robin]

big if true

would love if they expanded and split up the clans like they did with the chaos gods armies.

[jaunty dawn]

that would be so many chaos armies though haha

that was a little bit what their aos 2e rules were tho

at least in terms of battleline

[junior robin]

that is true

[past sphinx]

"A grimDark rules light art heavy ttrpg" is just what morkborg already is lmao

hell its even a black powder setting, things are just well and truely to far gone for it to be anything but mere alchemy by the time the game starts

[naive abyss]

It's a different kind of setting to mork borg imo

It's more drawing on like warhammer fantasy vibes

[jaunty dawn]

ooooh ooookay

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/12/13/mix-and-match-aspect-warriors-to-create-the-deadliest-blades-of-khaine-kill-team/

so you basically get abilties that would usually be attached to a specialist

oh and it's not fire team based

[floral herald]

Oh wow

That's even better

I'm sold

Shame they're a triple boxer of a team but I'm getting them anyway lol

[jaunty dawn]

it's kinda interesting cause it's like

if you take all three aspects, every fighter lost is one less technique

[floral herald]

Yeah this is up there with Legionaries I think for having a lot of build choices

[jaunty dawn]

two aspects have a bit of redundancy

and then monoaspect basically gets double specialists

this is pretty nasty

[floral herald]

I'm kinda surprised they don't get a 3+ but I guess it'd make team balance hard

But yeah that's a strong operative

[jaunty dawn]

I guess they don't have any of the heavy aspects like fire dragons too

the existing dire avengers aren't apl 3 which is interesting

but imagine that's just gonna change with this team

[floral herald]

yeah

[thin ibex]

ooo

this gives me an amzing excuse to pick up a dire avengers box

and possibly a banshees or scorpions box

i think i'd be led by a dire avenger exarch tho

[floral herald]

Nice thing is that you're building for KT you can just make all 3 exarchs

Assuming you don't plan on mono-aspecting anyway

[thin ibex]

triple box sounds spensive, but sounds like a cool way to get into eldar without going crazy

that and i think dire avengers are sick

though im always conflicted with the exarch loadout

because the spear and shield is cool

but the pistol and the dire sword is iconic

and the dire sword feels like really meshed with their identity

[floral herald]

I really like 2x catapults for them

[thin ibex]

i like it mechanically, because its more of what teh squad was already doing, but i always feel a mild obligation to the dire sword

with like.. having the spirit of an aeldari warrior stored in the hilt of the blade that tries to mind fry any person it hits

[jaunty dawn]

wonder if dire avengers are better being converted from guardians at this point

or combining the kits at least

his helmet is raising its eyebrow

[thin ibex]

Dire "The Rock" Avenger

they smell what the enemy is cooking

[jaunty dawn]

howling banshee boomerang

[thin ibex]

tbh, i really really like the triskele, gives predator vibes

but its almost never particularly good

[jaunty dawn]

first boomerang in killteam pog

[thin ibex]

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Diresword

I feel like Asurmen and his bro are top tier chaos haters

his bro in the sword

[solemn gull]

Yippie new mörk borg hack just dropped

[white mural]

That’s funny and feels right considering their armor also has sculpted abs

[rocky shale]

I accidebtally built my banshees with no exarch, hope that the banshee exarch isn't the best pick lol

[rocky shale]

DA kits are still plastic. You could toss the heads on guardians and one they'd just look a little more plain but have more poses.

[south axle]

The tabard thingies the DA are separate bits from the legs so that can be retrofitted easily

[jaunty dawn]

yeah ik they just look bad lol

[rocky shale]

The guardian sculpts are pretty great in comparison true

[jaunty dawn]

I think all the dire avenger parts are seperate though

so you can just stick on the scopes and the tabards

the asymmetrical exarch head though. it kills me

[rocky shale]

Oh I just noticed that

Oof

[bright dove]

The base heads look fine

[south axle]

THe closest helmetwise in the range atm seems to be the shining spears, but that seems like a bit to put out to get a head that is symmetrical

[pulsar cairn]

did eldar get new minis?

[past sphinx]

generally? yes

just getting new scorpions now

[pulsar cairn]

oh

i mean

better than nothing

heard their stuff is old

like the minis themselves

[south axle]

They got new Guardians not that long ago, same with Dark Reapers

[pulsar cairn]

cool

took a while for them to start getting some love from GW right?

[past sphinx]

roughly 20 years

[naive abyss]

i feel its less a hack and more akin to like fitd

[past sphinx]

I remember my friend very very excitedly bringing his brand new scorpions on the table in 2006

they got ran over by a land raider

[south axle]

Clan Eshin is still waiting for their refresh

[past sphinx]

u gonna have to wait for 4 years of frenchmen and undead friend

we havent even seen an imperial i dont think

i trust in the return of Karl

[south axle]

Clan Eshin still exist in AoS tho, compared to the Empire

[past sphinx]

Free cities getting major love is very good ill take it

admittedly that was the one army i really really wanted to play in AoS but nothign really worked for them

[bright dove]

I once again feel the desire to do Skaven Game

[past sphinx]

oh those poor Warplock jezzails

[unreal cosmos]

Artel has some cool looking Dire Avengers

[past sphinx]

oh those poor ratling guns

[south axle]

Eshin and Skryre in my <3

[naive abyss]

karl isnt born yet in old world lol

[bright dove]

It's a pity, because they're good in game

[naive abyss]

current rumors point to empire and orcs also getting a few new things in the not too distant future

and theres rumblings of a skaven refresh atm

[south axle]

That moment when GW release baby Karl for Old World

[floral herald]

How?

[south axle]

Full refresh, or just finishing the refresh from 2010

[naive abyss]

i mean again his parents in theory dont even exist lol

[jaunty dawn]

new refresh

[naive abyss]

not really specified but id assume new refresh

[solemn gull]

It would be cool to make a 40k alt universe version of Blood Bowl

Imagine Khorne Berserkers trying to tackle a harlequine reciever

[past sphinx]

it got within handshake distance turn 1, dropped the ramp and many very angry very poorly painted space wolves ran into them

[south axle]

Cuz the 2010 refresh models still hold up, same with the End Time refresh/new stuff

[floral herald]

Oh that makes sense

[naive abyss]

most do yeah

[past sphinx]

you could move like 12 inches then disemdark an inch or two then assault move

[naive abyss]

the stormvermin suffer from rank up itis though imo

[floral herald]

I was like “hold up tank shock didn’t deal damage in 2006 what happened?”

[past sphinx]

pretty much across the entire fuckin board

gave me the love of the powerfist

[jaunty dawn]

we've seen eshin and pestilens in underworlds

[naive abyss]

tru and both look great tbh

[jaunty dawn]

skryre are probably the oldest though

acolytes are still like. random mini blister I believe

like you don't even get to choose which sculpt you get

[naive abyss]

and basically all the weapon teams are metal still

[past sphinx]

wait i think i still have that land raider

The black hand

plastic with some good old pewter upgrades

one of the track gaurds fell off the moment i put it down

[jaunty dawn]

lmao

[quaint compass]

Reactive armor

Overreactive even

[past sphinx]

i had someone tell me they where mine launchers once

[floral herald]

That's... sort of true

[jaunty dawn]

they are mine launchers lol

or frag sprayers anyway

[past sphinx]

Simply charge the enemy and blow the reactive armor at close range

Same effect

[jaunty dawn]

basically

they're for supporting terminator assault

[past sphinx]

A leman with ERA and a cope cage haunts my dreams

Like tacticool marines

[naive abyss]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/959855447966371891/1184614642987847820/20231213_002104_1.mp4?ex=658c9d5b&is=657a285b&hm=188d6a3fb9dd2818a4989f0bff2160a9be9bac6a5eeb2cf437dffe58c6609675&

[spice flicker]

With how many clones that Fabius has I say he should be the only character you can take 3 of on the field instead of the normal only 1 per army.

[upper canopy]

Trazyn

[thin ibex]

i love the idea of having a central land raider or big vehicle and actually naming it n stuff

[thin ibex]

i wonder how good "shurikens the army" could do

just en mass as many shurikens as I can fit into

[raw vessel]

(No spoilers) Stim Toy

[solemn gull]

It would be really cool to play a Dark Crusade game set during the Horus heresy

[past sphinx]

be a lot of getting shot by bolters

we had a really really good idea who was a traitor

[pulsar cairn]

blam

[upper canopy]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1173105895748665374/1184487777270763570/IMG_3968.jpg?format=webp&width=1970&height=1359

[runic swallow]

Iirc that’s a rephrasing of an irl anecdote from the Falklands war

[pastel rampart]

I wonder how good marine healing is and if it's possible for Alessio to just attach his arm to the stump.

[upper canopy]

He'd need it surgically reattatched at least

[pastel rampart]

Hold it there long enough for the apothecary to staple it together.

[pine matrix]

There was some homebrew for playing Deathwatch in the Heresy, called The Good, the Bad and Alpha Legion, never used it myself but it looked neat

[naive abyss]

ork pain doc approved message

[pine matrix]

My main point of thinking was could you make a mono-legion squad interesting in a game where half your character is your chapter (in this case legion) choice, or if I could think of a scenario for a multi-legion squad that I liked

[naive abyss]

you could be black shields

[pine matrix]

But I would love, love, love to play/run a game set just before the Heresy kicks off. Best case scenario have the players pick a side after things go south

[pastel rampart]

At a certain point there's little difference between the two.

[naive abyss]

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/1xgdoG

[jaunty dawn]

replantation is possible irl

oh wait you meant like marine healing not marine medicine

sorry haha

[pastel rampart]

Yeah, but irl we don't have power weapons lopping off whole limbs so I imagine there's some differences there.

[jaunty dawn]

power weapons would probably help somewhat

it's easier to fix a cleaner cut

[ebon forge]

OPh my fucking god XD

[upper canopy]

Actual "I'm just a child soldier but very tall" dialogue

[pastel rampart]

Marine natural healing is pretty robust so I imagine if they held the limb up in a short enough amount of time it'd stitch itself together. Maybe not enough to fight fully immediately.

[jaunty dawn]

the key thing is reestablishing bloodflow

[floral herald]

Power weapons also ambiguously cauterize wounds which might make it harder

[pastel rampart]

But I think most lost limbs are from explosives or having to get the fuck out of dodge and leave the limb behind.

[upper canopy]

If you're fighting orks most missing limbs are probably because they were pulled physically from the socket.

idk what that means medically

[jaunty dawn]

also apparently children usually have better outcomes which is probably the closeest

[upper canopy]

but that's probably how you lost an arm

[jaunty dawn]

a tear would be more problematic

[ebon forge]

Orks would just stitch the limb back with staplers and they would be gud

if I am not mistaken, that's what literally happened with Ghazghkull's head

[upper canopy]

Ghaz required a lot of surgery

he's essentially a frankenstein

Also I'm saying "if you were fighting orks" because that's what Crimson Fists do

they are constantly drowning in orks 24/7

[jaunty dawn]

orks can reattach limbs after a lot longer than humans

and they go back to working a lot lot quicker

[past sphinx]

thats the power of plants

well

fungus

[jaunty dawn]

was gonna say something about what happens if an ork goes crazy and starts Grafting

but that would probably be Un Orky

[upper canopy]

That's literally every painboy

They will just slap shit onto shit

for no reason other "wondur wut happenz"

[jaunty dawn]

yeah but I mean like elden ring grafting

covered in limbs. great squig arm

[floral herald]

They're also all compatible donors

[jaunty dawn]

yeah orks can nick each others bodies

like hermit crabs and shells

[floral herald]

That's probably considered un-orky but it'd be completely sick on a model so they should do it anyway

[naive abyss]

in theory thats what happened with ghaz

like thats not ghazs original body under there if memory serves

it was one of his warbosses

[jaunty dawn]

pretty sure at one point ghaz didn't have much ork bod left

[naive abyss]

i just know in his current iteration they stitched his head onto another orks body lol

[ebon forge]

Ghaz is just
Head

[naive abyss]

well no theres a body under all that armor

its just not his original body

[ebon forge]

fair

[thin ibex]

During the Psychic Awakening, Ghazghkull would come into battle with the Space Wolves on the world of Krongar. During the ensuing battle, Ghazghkull deliberately separated both himself and Wolf Lord Ragnar Blackmane by detonating explosives which blocked the entrance to an Imperial cathedral with debris. In the subsequent duel, both sides fought bitterly but the Wolf Lord slowed Ghazghkull by cutting the hydraulic cabling to his armor. This did not fully stop Ghazghkull, and he crushed Ragnar in his claw. However while horribly wounded, the Wolf Lord sapped up enough strength to decapitate Ghazghkull with his Frost Blade. Ragnar lifted Ghazghkull's head up high and howled in victory. Between life and death, Ghazghkull lamented that there was nobody left to bring back Makari now and that his work was still unfinished.

Almost immediately after his death, Ghazghkull's Waaagh! began to fall apart. It fell to Makari, Bullets, and Grotsnik to try and resurrect the Prophet. They recovered Ghazghkull's body and Grotsnik worked his madness, dismembering it and attaching the various parts to a gigantic suit of armor. Grotsnik utilized a power generator in orbit existing between both the Materium and Immaterium to shoot down a beam of green lightning at the spot where Ghazghkull's form lay. The experiment had a 4-in-5 chance of destroying half the planet, but it succeeded in bringing Ghazghkull back to life after 10 days and nights. Moreover, the Warboss had been brought back bigger and more powerful than ever. Such is his Orky strength that his very presence draws Greenskins from light years away

For reference

[pastel rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/elden-ring-goty-game-of-the-year-tarnished-arms-gif-27608405

This but it's all power klaws.

[jaunty dawn]

painboss decides he's jealous of stompas

[past sphinx]

simply transplant his head into a direct connection with a stompa

[jaunty dawn]

painboss doesn't know how to make a stompa the mek way

[upper canopy]

"RUN BOYS!"
"Wot, we'z unda attack?"
"NAH, DOK BROKE OUTTA COMMOROGH 'N NOW HE'Z GOT IDEAZ"

[bright dove]

"OI LADZ, WHICH ONE OF YOUZ GITZ WANTZ TO BE TALLER?!"

[quaint compass]

"Owroight, but you'z better not make me skinny..."

[jaunty dawn]

kinda getting a grey knight vibe from the hilt

[floral herald]

hmm I could see it

This feels like an AoS/fantasy model though

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

it does

[dense sedge]

Skaven is waiting for their refresh

[naive abyss]

weve still yet to see what is holding that one chaos spear

and i retain hope for valkia

[pastel rampart]

That's a very "warhammer" sword. Which is to say it could be freakin' anything.

[naive abyss]

some of the details and current rumors make me suspect its a DA thing

[past sphinx]

its not a power weapon id wager on the side of AoS

[ebon forge]

Corvux Corvax belt
ezz

Also
Fuck Erebus

[mental birch]

Don't the skaven have twitter in blood bowl?

[soft willow]

Skitter yup.

[solemn gull]

Can’t wait till they ship of Theseus thatcher

[past sphinx]

Bloodbowl continues to have the only James Workshop lore ill ever respect

[pastel rampart]

Mordheim tho.

[pulsar cairn]

i respect the lore of that one Tech priest who acted as a good dad

i like stories about dads doing their best

emperor is the opposite

[solemn gull]

Who?

[pulsar cairn]

i forgot the name

i know that what happened is that he tried cloning himself but ended up getting a daughter instead of an exact copy of him, people told him to terminate her but he couldn't bring himself to do it and started to raise her

sad thing is that even with him being a loving father (in techpriest standards) she still grew up to be kind of a dick

Vitali Tychon seems to be the name

from a book called Lord of Mars

[solemn gull]

Neat

[topaz elk]

Would y’all say it’s fair to say Eldrad is the greatest living eldar psyker?

[solemn gull]

Probably

Is he the guy who sees the future constantly

[topaz elk]

Yes

Normally to be then ignored by everyone he warns about their upcoming future

[pastel rampart]

Eldrad might be the greatest living psyker period.

[topaz elk]

People don’t consider him just because he’s small

[pastel rampart]

About the only things out there that beat him in terms of pure psychic might is daemons, prince or greater. And maybe Emps but he's currently [hyperlinked blocked] right now.

[topaz elk]

Yah that’s what I was thinking

I’m trying to get a list of the greatest psykers in the setting

And my mind first jumped to Emps, Eldrad and Magnus

[naive abyss]

does the hivemind count?

[pastel rampart]

Probably in that order from greatest.

I'd say probably not? They're more a force of nature than anything else--they're a collective organism, not a singular psyker.

[topaz elk]

Yah I was thinking that too

[past sphinx]

a hyper aggresive mold

with space travel

[topaz elk]

Especially since I don’t think any individual tyrannid psyker is that impressive

They’re just a giant mass of psychic energy

But not very much individual psychic power

[pastel rampart]

Yeah, and it just picks an organism to channel its psychic energy through. Even Norn Queens are just an instrument, ultimately.

[topaz elk]

Or well not very much individual psychic power compared to like

The top tiers of the setting

I know the average imperial pysker’s head explodes just from being near a tyrannid psyker

[past sphinx]

like a hand grenade to a hydrogen bomb

not even in the same field of study

[topaz elk]

Though there are instances where the hivemind itself is affected by stuff

[bright dove]

Barring that one that ate a craftworld.

The Doom of Malan'tai

[topaz elk]

Wait huh?

[bright dove]

Oh yeah, there's a 'Nid out there that figured out how to get into the chewy soul center of soulstones, iirc

The creature took its name from the events on the Eldar Craftworld of Malan'tai. Following the destruction of Hive Fleet Naga by the Eldar, a lone and wounded Bio-ship committed its final act by launching its last bundle of Mycetic Spores into the Craftworld of Malan'tai. The Eldar of the assaulted Craftworld quickly set about hunting the scattered creatures, but in the process of killing those they believed posed the greatest threat they ignored a unique vampiric Zoanthrope that, left undisturbed, devoured the spirits of the Craftworld's Infinity Circuit. As it fed, its power grew, until it reached a nigh invulnerable level and went on to reduce the entire Craftworld to a lifeless shell. But since the destruction of the Malan'tai Craftworld, there has been no new sign of the creature now known as the "Doom of Malan'tai".

[topaz elk]

Oh Jesus

[bright dove]

Yuuuup

It's still probably not in the Eldrad/Magnus/etc ranking.

[topaz elk]

Probably yah

[bright dove]

But yeah, that's definitely a heavyweight produced by the Hive Mind.

[naive abyss]

maybe the swarmlord?

[bright dove]

Ish, I suppose.

But also, it doesn't exactly have the most stellar track record.

[topaz elk]

I feel like the swarmlord has gotta be at least in the top 10

[thin ibex]

I think Ahriman might be in the top ten

Or top 15

For psykers

Yvraine might be in the rankings too

[floral herald]

Honorary mention to the cacodominus

[thin ibex]

Oh, Malcador I think was a truly formidable psyker

Supposedly the King in Yellow might be very powerful

[floral herald]

Is this the greatest ever or just the greatest alive in M41?

Or M42 now lol

[thin ibex]

Uh I actually don't know lol, but that's a fair distinction

Oh as far as all alive, kaldor draigo

Should be up there

[floral herald]

Yeah up there somewhere

I think my personal top are

• Magnus
• Ahriman
• Eldrad
• Ephrael
• Yvraine?
  Not sure of order

Eldrad might be above Ahriman

And Ephrael is a big ???

[glossy vapor]

Where would malcador stand if he was still alive?

[floral herald]

Below Magnus esp present Magnus

He’s super knowledgeable and superlatively skilled but Magnus has now spent 10k years matching that

[rocky shale]

Yvraine is definitely somewhere on that list. Didn't she un-dust some rubrics?

Ah yeah she did, then threw them into the warp

[glossy vapor]

trying to block out color schemes for a custom chapter. Thinking something blood raven like, but i really love the sceme of the torso, legs, and head being 1 color with the arms being a second.

also really drawn to a rust-red or burgendy for the shade of red.

[naive abyss]

Stern is weird for this question lol

Cuz it's both implied she's a baby emps and sometimes that she isn't a psyker

And she's just this weird dragonball character over on the side

Like she does shit with her maybe psychic powers I've not seen anyone else do that I know of. Like fly and fight a daemon engine kaiju lol

[pulsar cairn]

who

[jaunty dawn]

ephrael stern

the daemonifuge

I like malcadors

I don't like this is a good golden angle for them but seeeing them from other angles I'm like nice

[naive abyss]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/959864760441118790/1184802112064978974/image0.jpg?ex=658d4bf4&is=657ad6f4&hm=80a98b1689e270d5778b73d6bbd761937300025198c25897d4e2cf145c93174f&

I think this might be belial

He's rumored to be getting a new model and it looks similar to his combi

And has what looks like DA gubbins

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/959864760441118790/1184821463157592095/99800101107_DABelial01.png?ex=658d5df9&is=657ae8f9&hm=34baafe87c4b547cd940078c6a92b0cda2c64bdf33324972f98d705cb344ea78&

[jaunty dawn]

that seems pretty reasonable yeah

would go with deathwing knights

[naive abyss]

That too yeah

[jaunty dawn]

the arrow on the strap is a bit weird

[naive abyss]

While my scar fan would be sad a bit over it I do hope we also eventually get an updated master of the ravenwing

[naive abyss]

Yeah that's the only bit that feels off

But beyond that it feels pretty one to one

[jaunty dawn]

full image reveal is gonna show a lot more

in the hand area

[naive abyss]

Probably yeah

https://va.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_s5idipBqVl1zuelxn.mp4

[ebon forge]

Thank you!

[naive abyss]

Ye

Tbh I recommend most of the time of legends books

I find overall they have lots of fun stuff going on

Like Ngl the war of the beard getting book coverage is kick ass

You get to have the elfs and dwarfs described at their peak

[ebon forge]

Oh
The ultimate "Knife ear" war

I will see which I find first, Nagash or the Perturabo Lord of Iron book

[naive abyss]

?

[unreal cosmos]

Definitely AoS

[naive abyss]

Lol

[solemn gull]

I was thinking the same thing, big bone reapers vibes

[ebon forge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDHZ__kMhnM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxBwAwWzZc

Was refering to this, sorry

[naive abyss]

I know what knife ear is

I'm just confused by it being applied to the war of the beard

[solemn gull]

Ye

[ebon forge]

elf and dwarfs war

[solemn gull]

Right

[naive abyss]

Like the dwarfs actively tried to maintain peace

[solemn gull]

Knife ear war just sounds like an elf civil war?

[ebon forge]

Oh I though it was dwarf vs elf

[solemn gull]

So lost

[ebon forge]

Extremely

[naive abyss]

It was. But the helfs did the political equivalent of shitting on every living dwarfs head

Like the dwarfs actively were coerced into the war with the helfs

[solemn gull]

This is LOTR lore right?

[naive abyss]

No

Warhammer fantasy

[solemn gull]

Oh

[naive abyss]

Why would I be talking lotr lore in warhammer chat lol

[ebon forge]

WHY THEY DID THAT

[naive abyss]

Cuz they are stuck up

[ebon forge]

Bear tax?

[naive abyss]

And their king was even more stuck up and also dumb

[naive abyss]

?

[ebon forge]

So elf at their most stuck up

[naive abyss]

The helfs couldn't tax them. It was literally delf raids disguised as helfs. Dwarfs send envoy asking for explanation and reparations. The helf king instead of explain the delf situation or paying shaves the envoy and sends back the message "actually no pay me"

[solemn gull]

Hence confusion

[ebon forge]

YO WHAT
Fucking knife ears

[naive abyss]

And bear in mind the high king had to push back against the other lords to send the envoy in the first place

[bright dove]

That goes in the book, yeah.

[jaunty dawn]

can we not do the fictional slur thing

[pulsar cairn]

book

can i go in the book too

[naive abyss]

Like the high king has a kick ass quote about like how it is easy to go to war but harder and better as a ruler to work for peace

[pulsar cairn]

btw when Orks call T'au "Grey skins" is it a slur or is it just the same as calling Marinee "Beakies"?

[naive abyss]

He even still tried to deescalate at the start of the war

[pulsar cairn]

was it the war of the beard?

[naive abyss]

Yes. It takes his son literally getting killed during a battle for him to just go "fuck it we ball"

Like its infinitely funny to me that the helfs instigated the war then lost it hard

[pulsar cairn]

i remember that the Elf king at the time was a difficult person

and pretty much deserved their fate

[naive abyss]

He was a dumb asshole

[solemn gull]

Thats just their term for it I guess

[naive abyss]

To the point the dwarfs still have the original Phoenix crown

[pulsar cairn]

heh

[solemn gull]

Orks probably don’t know specific names for things

In general at least

[pulsar cairn]

he got out of the book

[naive abyss]

And parade it around the holds every few years

[ebon forge]

smh, Orks don't know blue is a color skin

[solemn gull]

Tau are pretty grey

[naive abyss]

I still love the orc word for dwarfs

Stunties is just fun

[pulsar cairn]

stunties

[solemn gull]

Orkish actually would be the only language in 40k any of us could understand

[naive abyss]

But yeah the dwarf distrust of elfs in oldhamner sorta has a very reasonable cultural historical reason for it

[ebon forge]

ew human Nagash, where is skull

[pulsar cairn]

BALD

[solemn gull]

Due to trademarking and lack of regional terms whenever the books are translated Orks still say classic british punk things

[naive abyss]

Which is personally why I find it compeling in the setting cuz it's not like it's a kill on sight thing

[solemn gull]

Implying they speak english

[ebon forge]

poggers

[solemn gull]

Under skin

[naive abyss]

He'll get there lol

[ebon forge]

🗡️

[naive abyss]

Like I said this is the story of how he becomes the bone pope

[ebon forge]

Low Gothic? maybe

[solemn gull]

I fell in love with the Von Carstein lore recently

[solemn gull]

Thats bastardized latin

[naive abyss]

Vlad is great

[floral herald]

Sort of a buzzkill but the stuff with ork words is kind of a meta narrative affectation usually in universe humans can’t understand them most of the time

Though it varies weirdly by book and ork

[naive abyss]

Just genuinely loves his wife

[solemn gull]

I know, humans don’t understand english in the setting so it’s still plausible

[pulsar cairn]

who's Vlad

[naive abyss]

Such is the way of things in warhammer lore lol

[solemn gull]

Vlad von carstein

Vampire count

[pulsar cairn]

Orks are Bri'ish

[solemn gull]

Even worse

[naive abyss]

The og vampire count

[solemn gull]

Northerners

[pulsar cairn]

[naive abyss]

Well cockney

Not northerners lol

[solemn gull]

This is the lore reason they are the best bloodbowl players

[ebon forge]

Just like Italian! 😄 gets shot

[solemn gull]

I’ve started making my 40k bloodbowl team

It’s been hard finding the right space marine hands for the runner

[naive abyss]

I mean most Latin derived languages are mutations of Latin

[floral herald]

That would make them fantasy Americans tho

[solemn gull]

Dread

[ebon forge]

Exactly!
Like portuguese and spanish
English is a whole other mess

[ebon forge]

Everyone bald in Warhammer is evil

Except Ogryns

[solemn gull]

Dead horse

[floral herald]

What dark secrets does Tigurius have?

[jaunty dawn]

didn't actually survive contacting the hive mind /noncanon

[pastel rampart]

https://tenor.com/view/spider-man-we-one-gif-18212100

I mean...

[thin ibex]

#LongestTermGSCSleeper

[naive abyss]

https://vxtwitter.com/garychalkpics/status/1735314120667201570?t=JE_KA-K41Q_FlJu3OP9Lww&s=19

Making me extra glad I just grabbed one of his prints lol

[floral herald]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/hjPWHBsQiYwmccLL.pdf

New kill team balance slate, remember only changes with a * are actually new

Lots of little buffs to middle performing teams

Chaos Cult taken out Darktide style damn

Goat buffs?

Interesting one for sure

[naive abyss]

They do anything with the dorfs?

[floral herald]

No changes but salvagers have been solid, if tricky and cerebral to execute on since their last changes

Which were pretty good buffs

I think this is the biggest change and I’m curious if chaos cult will be balanced or just ass now

Requiring a KO not just damage seems like it’ll make it really hard for them to execute vs elite teams

[tired cairn]

I really like how KT is so willing to change rules to balance kill teams and kind of wish 40k did it more (of course it helps that there are no points in KT)

Mostly as a solution to "err, I guess this elite army is a horde now" problem

[untold swallow]

https://vxtwitter.com/NathanN77642580/status/1735328256503468050?s=20

Accidentally something really badass

Also what the fuck does this guy think dreadnaughts are lmao

[floral herald]

Yeah 40k’s “just take 30% more models” balance cudgel is lame comparatively

[naive abyss]

I find that comparative funny and also lol yeah I had a similar thought with dreadnoughts

Like dreadnoughts in function are big murder wheel chairs in a sense

[floral herald]

One of the siege of Terra books also features an excerpt from the point of view of a severely physically disabled space marine taking pot shots at Iron Warriors in the imperial palace with a lascannon from some kind of space wheelchair even

[naive abyss]

Huh

Neat

[untold swallow]

Oh fuck yeah

[spice flicker]

Bloodborne gatling wheelchair flashbacks.

[naive abyss]

Lol

[untold swallow]

man these replies are just

fucking sad and pathetic lmao

One of them is talking about how 'slapping tits on marines is stupid'

And just

[naive abyss]

Yup that do be the opposing side in that discourse

[untold swallow]

Wow it's almost like one of the only female representations in a faction is people with boobplate!

[floral herald]

Spoiling cause it’s from a book and also mild cw for medical stuff

[untold swallow]

Maybe that's literally the fucking problem, idiot

[naive abyss]

looks at lov and guard then looks directly into camera

Also bionics are a type of rep like wheel chairs in theory

Like they're high tech prosthetics

[untold swallow]

speaking of lov

They're my favorite faction cuz they have ladies in bulky power armor

[tired cairn]

Though, given how a bunch of people were upset at the first 10th edition balance slate, I think 40k people tolerate rules changes less?

[untold swallow]

and not massive tits!

And I wasn't into 40k before!

[floral herald]

I think that might be true yeah

Might be a game culture thing

Since KT only balances with rules changes

(Mostly, there was a rash of “can take 1 more guy” changes early for elite teams)

[thin ibex]

I do think a lot of 10th balance changes using the pointshammer is maybe also slightly a factor of so many factions running on indexes currently? Not that it necessarily excuses that, but I imagine it creates a reluctance for makin major rules adjustments in regard to all the free rules bases

[naive abyss]

In fairness it's not power armor but also yes lol

[thin ibex]

(which you know, is also strange, making rules changes when its free seems like it would be better to me)

[naive abyss]

Also the guard are way more coed now which is nice Ngl

[untold swallow]

fairs

bulky armor

I like the chunky

xD

[floral herald]

I’d think that’d make it easier personally, since you’re not invalidating a printed codex

[thin ibex]

See thats my logic too, but something tells me that for them, that might be a cause for reluctance

might be because they already have the dexe's mostly queued up so major changes would constitute diving back into them or something, i dunno

[bright dove]

Coed Guard will always remind me of Ciaphas Cain

[untold swallow]

Also Grimnyr

Are there fem heads for grimnyr yet btw?

[naive abyss]

Yes

[tired cairn]

I can see it being an issue for codexes that are probably already written

And I think we've seen more significant rules changes for factions that likely don't have a codex?

[naive abyss]

Also the lov are really easy to do head swaps tbh

Like notably so lol

[thin ibex]

my main thought is that the pointhammer is exceedingly simpler than major statistical changes, despite being ham handed

[bright dove]

Speaking of Ciaphas Cain, I love that he has midwife training for his regiment

[tired cairn]

Oh, yeah it's definitely easier

[thin ibex]

I do also think that 40k players on the dawn of 10th and in general are incredibly reactive and prone to not having an unbiased perspective on what statistical changes to make

Just observationally

spaces of 40k rules discussion are... not exactly tempered or reasonable places

[naive abyss]

It's in part I think the fact more money is involved

[untold swallow]

I think the first actual miniatures I will end up buying eventually, if I buy miniatures, will be that LoV kill team

[thin ibex]

Kt is a great way to start

[bright dove]

Any major rule changes are going to potentially cost players hundreds of dollars

[tired cairn]

So does points changes though?

[bright dove]

Less so

[tired cairn]

I'm not sure. E.g. the cutting the points by a third solution means you might need to buy a bunch more models to have a 2k point army

[floral herald]

Yeah points changes do a lot more to cost money

[tired cairn]

And if the issue is "wow this unit sucks at this point value", that's the same "cost" as if they made a bad rules change

[floral herald]

Since most of them are just “your 2000 point army is now an 1800 point army” if they’re buffs

[thin ibex]

would they? Insofar as changing the competetive scene, making major rules adjustments can make a player effectively have to buy whole new armies potentially

rather than just more army

[floral herald]

Some really big points changes like the infamous free wargear for space marines change right at the end of 9E also required extensive remodeling for comp lists

[tired cairn]

I think that's only the case if they mucked around with army creation rules

[floral herald]

Oh no I poked my nose into this

[solemn gull]

I miss points

[thin ibex]

i just mean if someone is chasing the meta, if the meta changes AFTER they make their meta purchases, now they have to make new meta purchases

[tired cairn]

Otherwise both a rules and points change can mess up competitive lists equally

[thin ibex]

not a problem is you have an extensive collection as is

(though as a side note from a pure gaming perspective, the meta should change frequently)

[solemn gull]

Yeah

[tired cairn]

My take is that GW should set points based on the eliteness of the unit/army and then change the rules to eventually match those points values

[solemn gull]

Buy cool models, meta will swing to favour you eventually

[floral herald]

IMO 40k’s rules probably change too quickly for a meta to really set

[tired cairn]

Is there any mass battle game that does KT style army construction instead of points based?

[thin ibex]

they should probably do some subdivided goals yeah, in terms of intention for an army, and a concurrent point cost range they'd like

[floral herald]

But that’s probably good for casual balance

[floral herald]

Usually big games are scenario based or use points I don’t know one which does something like KT

[tired cairn]

Really? Once a what? Quarter is too frequent for that?

[thin ibex]

this is my preference as well, but not one that a very competetive player would necessarily conform to, because they want to play whatever is best at any given moment rather than eventually

[tired cairn]

Or is this because miniature wargames have much longer lags than a video game?

[floral herald]

IMO yes

40K isn’t like LoL where people who take it competitively seriously can grind it hours a day for weeks and LoL patches every 2 weeks tend to happen before a meta really sets

This is maybe more of an opinion than a fact but I think frequently patched games tend to mess with things as a meta emerges but before it’s really present

IE after strong options are identified but before people figure out how to handle them

[solemn gull]

Sounds like a way to go broke

[thin ibex]

Sure does lol

[solemn gull]

I’m not in the norm tho

Havent played since early 9th

And the only guy I played with was like, an uncool dude

[thin ibex]

I think... I think I like once a quarter more than I like once an edition, but there is probably an inbetween space

There shouldn't really be a situation where, say, triptide exists so long that it completely poisons the player base against a faction

[floral herald]

Meta chasing is much much more expensive yeah

[thin ibex]

to the point where you still see the sentiment today

[tired cairn]

Fair. Though I think caution there isn't unreasonable. It's reasonable to consider the downside of waiting to see if there is a counter to an apparently strong option is higher than a just nerfing it ahead of time

[spice flicker]

My favorite faction happens to be Knights (both imperial and Chaos) and how meta they are changes with the weather but man are their models cool to collect.

[floral herald]

Yeah it’s a mode of balance which is more about appeasing fans than like a commitment to competitive integrity or something. I’m always thinking of when people (illegally) brought back fan servers for like season 2 LoL and quickly discovered that people back then were playing a super poor meta

[tired cairn]

I think that's an overly negative framing, but yeah

[floral herald]

It might be

And for 40K it also helps that sometimes stuff is super out of balance and that almost no one plays a global meta

[spice flicker]

The moment knights get a kill team that isn't household guard is when I might consider KT. I'd still collect the household guard since they'll likely be good cheap infantry to hold objectives and do actions with.

[floral herald]

Since usually it’s your local scene and that might mean that even though GSC are super strong no one you play against plays them

[obsidian flume]

Honestly up until I was corrected I just assumed that regardless of what you were before space marines just sorta end as masculine. Which I thought was pretty cool

Space marine monogeneder

[thin ibex]

i personally think once a quarter is perfectly workable, with (from what i can tell) a high volume of games and tournaments that happen inbetween each pass. I do concede that it can be somewhat troublesome as a casual player to rulescheck frequently when you play your army if you want to know if its even legal anymore

[floral herald]

I doubt knights will ever get a kill team that isn’t some kind of associated infantry haha

[spice flicker]

Just roll into a KT game with a pair of armigers

[floral herald]

I think once per 6 months would probably be better

But I think that’s how 40K does it?

[thin ibex]

nah atm 40k is targeting once a quarter

[naive abyss]

Tbh some house guard for knights would be cool imo

[floral herald]

Where balance and points changes alternate every 3 months

[thin ibex]

i would be satisfied with 6 month turn around though

or a bi-annual turn around

[spice flicker]

Once a quarter while codexes are coming out and one every six months after all codexs are done.

[tired cairn]

I want an imperial knights kill team that's a bunch of pilots caught out of their Knights

[naive abyss]

Like small attachments of infantry working with big stomp machines is cool

[floral herald]

I think the closest you can get atm is Starstriders

[thin ibex]

i would actually really like a knight KT centered around house troops, but i think they'd definitely neeed (and I'd want) some real effort to give them a distinct identity

and then give them rules that help them couple well with knights on 40k

[floral herald]

Both aesthetically and in terms of people with weird tech and characters and big off map firepower

[tired cairn]

Though there are also a bunch of weird Imperial kill teams right now

[spice flicker]

That's titan fall

[tired cairn]

Pls give nids KT first thx

[floral herald]

Ymgarl stealers would make sense for the current season

and the last season for that matter lol

[tired cairn]

Clearly genestealers are only going to show up in the least sensible season

[floral herald]

Oh! @thin ibex buffs for both kinband and pathfinders in the new KT balance dataslate

[tired cairn]

Dumb Knight household guard idea: you get Knight feet you can move around the board. The Knight is focusing on more important things but moving around a bit or stomping on something can be done

[floral herald]

Knight worlds are really low tech except for the knights right?

Dumber household guard idea: it’s a War Cry/Kill Team crossover team of foot Knights

[spice flicker]

Dark angels visiting a knight world from one of the comics iirc

[ebon forge]

Lord Emperor please let they topple over like a bunch of Legos

[floral herald]

Do you know which one?

[bright dove]

I can never take Knights seriously because of how I first found out about them

[spice flicker]

It's one of the dark angels one but the title is eluding me at the moment.

[bright dove]

https://youtube.com/shorts/mZvuTKlQnoY?si=n2Qvn753e1Hr0ax4

[spice flicker]

I prefer the space maid-rines over the Imperial knights maid cafe.

[soft willow]

I still want the Kill Team for Knights that is just a single Armiger.

[bright dove]

The ultimate in stealth operations

[floral herald]

I could see knights fitting into KT kind of like that one scenario in war cry with a giant

[ebon forge]

Fool
They are from the same chapter

[soft willow]

The Maid Cafe Knights swore an oath to follow the Chapter, and in return wear their regailia.

[spice flicker]

Knights are part of no chapter of space Marines but a separate imperial force that might fight alongside them.

[thin ibex]

i think, consistently, my biggest issue with knights is just how much of a gatekeeper they can be; though meta i suppose helps show that's not so much the case anymore; I just always disliked how they were like weapon strength checks. I otherwise think they're absolutely sick and cool and also awesome for narrative games of "My Guys"

[ebon forge]

I know
But why not an exception in this case?

[spice flicker]

My biggest complaint is similar in that I always felt meta-wise they were either an absolute wall that people would complain they couldn't beat without dedicated anti-vehicle options brought along or treated like absolute punching bags that if your army couldn't table by turn 3 at the latest your army was pathetic. Very rarely have they been balanced to be in-between the two but I think Chaos Knights might be in the middle there for now even if people complain about dog park lists.

[ebon forge]

So
They are a pay-to-win

[spice flicker]

For the uninitiated dog park lists are lists that consists of only war dogs aka chaos armigers.

No

They arent

[floral herald]

I don’t think P2W makes sense conceptually for a game which is expensive to play

[ebon forge]

True, sorry the ignorance

[spice flicker]

Imperial knights have been nerfed to hell and back with each update in 10th and Chaos Knights are taking blows as well with the rules updates but not as badly as their loyalist brothers.

[floral herald]

I think I’m just saying the same thing but in different terms but my issue with knights is that their threat profile is so lopsided that balanced TAC lists struggle with them but lists which focus on AT just devour them

[soft willow]

I mean Imperial Knights aren't even in that bad of a spot right now.

Tournament listings skew things a lot.

[thin ibex]

yeah as i mentioned, I thnk knights now are actually in a reasonably good spot

[floral herald]

Both are IIRC in the high 40s in the metawatch so they’re probably in a good spot

[thin ibex]

compared to prior

[spice flicker]

They're among the lower ranking armies last I checked. Not lowest bit still low compared to where they were before.

[floral herald]

Knights are a list that probably should not be dominant in comp play

[soft willow]

Sure, but I still managed to go undefeated in a local event with them, and not because my opponents weren't ready for it.

[floral herald]

At least not how they were on release haha

[soft willow]

Yeah their 8th? ed release was pretty fucked up.

[floral herald]

Oh sorry I meant the dawn of 10e

Where the top armies were iirc

1. Eldar Knights
2. imperial knights
3. GSC for some reason
4. Chaos Knights
5. Stodes

Iirc

[soft willow]

Oh yeah.

Fuckin' the Lancer's 10th ed rules were bonkers.

[spice flicker]

I just hate how the big knights can't overwatch anymore and the justification behind their original points increase has been resolved and yet the points drop never happened.

[thin ibex]

question on this one, how close were the matches? Undefeated nothwithstanding

[spice flicker]

Mysterious guardian valiant is my favorite thing to come out of 10th edition imperial knights.

[soft willow]

Most matches were pretty balanced, except my match into Eldar where I was almost tabled but played the scenario better.

[spice flicker]

Need a little sign or something to put on the valiant that reads something along the lines of "gone fishing" or "gone harpooning."

[soft willow]

24 Dark/Bright Lances does in fact mulch a Knights list, but Castellan is baller.

[thin ibex]

thats cool, I think that if your matches were reasonably challenging and such, going undefeated isnt a sign of army being OP, but good dice, smart play, and using your strengths

[soft willow]

Yup, but if Knights were truly in a bad place I wouldn't have been able to do that.

[spice flicker]

Castellan doesn't have the output for its points tbh.

[soft willow]

Somewhat true, but it's also your only option for taking out the heaviest armor at range.

[spice flicker]

Knights main weakness is giant guns and massed attacks.

[soft willow]

Yeah my list was a Castellan and like nine armigers.

Precisely to be able to handle both.

[spice flicker]

Fighting angron or the lion as knights scare me since knights formidable melee pales in comparison to them.

Only melee units I fear

[soft willow]

You should fear Bobby G too.

[floral herald]

Looking at the current metawatch

What a banger list actually

This is what I was looking for first though

[spice flicker]

I know with CK I am toying with an all war dog list just to slice things up and its just 1 stalker, 5 brigands, 4 huntsman, and 3 karnivores.

So imperial knights are barely in the bottom 5

While chaos knights are barely out of the top 5

[floral herald]

I mean it’s a very healthy meta atm

I think it’s better to look at win rate

[thin ibex]

I personally quite like the Castellan, of course like any large imposing model, it has to put in work to make itself worthwhile, but on its own merit its a hefty boi with big guns

and hes very hard to drop

[floral herald]

47% and 52% is very healthy

[thin ibex]

by all but the strongest of weapons

honestly most of the armies actually seem like they're in a (if you extrapolate beyond the comp impact) in a pretty good spot

im aping Cyan, but that range of win rates is good

the fact that the two red, are 1% too low and 2% too high is good

[floral herald]

It’s that and winning lists not being horrible skew monsters

Like that CSM list is weirdly character heavy but it’s a CSM-ass army

[soft willow]

Some of that winrate is also who's playing those factions right? The most competitive players who could win more are moving away from what they think are weaker armies, which doesn't mean they're unplayable or bad, just not as optimal.

[floral herald]

Lots of legionaries and rhinos and shit

[spice flicker]

If knights can get their original points back that'd be nice

[floral herald]

The reverse also happens with some armies being buoyed by loyal faction specialists who execute on them really well

[spice flicker]

Original 10th edition points that is

[floral herald]

I know GSC had an outsized comp performance because all the people who played them in 9E were maniacs at the wheel

[soft willow]

I'd rather they rework some of the busted Bondsmen abilities and revert those to affecting both the big and the small Knight.

[spice flicker]

If I ever played GSC I would go the extra mile and kitbash them into looking like the brotherhood of Nod from Command and Conquer

Oddly enough I found GDI to be more easily emulated by tau rather than guard or space Marines. Especially if you go the Steel Talon route with their walkers.

[thin ibex]

I have an ongoing hate relationship with how the term optimal gets used lol, but you hit the nail on the head. If something isn't optimal it doesn't automatically translate to trash or worthless imo

[thin ibex]

So often I see people translate optimization to meaning "if its not the best, it's the worst"

[soft willow]

Yeah that's a competitive meta mindset warping things.

You see it in minis, in fighting games, in prettty much anything where competition is focused on.

[thin ibex]

i deeply dislike it for sure

[soft willow]

If "optimal" was always the best in these games they would be solved and not played.

[thin ibex]

you can even see it sometimes in Lancer lol, dspite it being completely non competetive

purely because things have statistics

[ebon forge]

Perturabo looked upon everything and was at once amazed and jaded. His delight at each new observation faded as the knowledge sprang into his mind, leaving him feeling cheated of the joy of discovery.

Perty cucked himself out of joy

[ebon forge]

It's so many variables is impossible to 100% 'solve it'
Tic-tac-toe is a solved game, because the possibilites are very small
Checkers and chess, are not.

[proud wing]

checkers is, in fact, fully solved

[thin ibex]

I dunno, I think theres also, to me, the oppressive sense that when someone becomes convinced that they have "solved" it or have the "optimal way, every one else MUST play in the way that makes the most sense to them. You know what's funny? people can still have fun with tic-tac-toe dispite it being solved; and hell, they don't need to know what the solution is to engage with it

[ebon forge]

oh damn it is
Well Megaman 2 for the NES is not >:V

[thin ibex]

The mistake is in viewing the game not as a game, but an acadamic issue

[ebon forge]

agreed

[spice flicker]

Big stompy mech go boom with giant arm cannon.

[ebon forge]

MechWarrior 5 Knight mod when

[unreal cosmos]

Holy shit this is good

[floral herald]

It’s such a good passage, one of the most memorable “fragments” in the book

[floral herald]

Oh jeez I have the Eye of Twitter on me now

[upper canopy]

what'd you do

[floral herald]

I posted this as a reply and now a big account retweeted me

Bitshammer

[naive abyss]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/959864760441118790/1184942200795189278/SPOILER_IMG_7677.png?ex=658dce6b&is=657b596b&hm=75667bd40c09e6f5770034cd669f09fcb37927b77b650e88d09907b52fbcf130&

Supposed old world box leak

[junior robin]

wow, they kept the old plastic units.

if its real that is.

[naive abyss]

I'm not surprised

Allot of old plastic is likely gonna return I feel

Considering we already saw that with bretts

[ebon forge]

Perturabo debate against the priest in 'hammer of Olympia' is interesting, it does come out a bit 'i am super smart here facts and logic' but fun

[naive abyss]

And honestly I'd rather them focus on updating metal and finecast stuff lol

[junior robin]

true

[dense sedge]

Chaos cult kt is cool. Shame it’s so expensive to assemble

[dense sedge]

High effort leak if false

[spice flicker]

Was fantasy always Square bases while 40k was round?

[junior robin]

iirc yes.