Warhammer and Such

[naive abyss]

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blue_Scribes#:~:text=Tzeentch yielded%2C and broke his,space and time%2C irredeemably lost.

[floral herald]

Yeah I think that tvtropes one might be wrong because in the distant past Tzeentch supposedly had won with the ultra-powerful Staff of Tzeentch, and only an alliance of all other gods could hope to unseat them

[naive abyss]

Yup

[junior summit]

I like the Sons because they're a great tragedy

[naive abyss]

Linked the lexicanum that mentions it lol

[floral herald]

Anyway to stave off that possibility because another god might be able to use the SoT, Tzeentch destroyed it, and its countless shards form every magic or psychic thing

[jaunty dawn]

I mean okay but

[naive abyss]

I like them all but I love tzeentch greater daemons visually the most

[jaunty dawn]

that literally describes how tzeentch lost

or was at least convinced they would lose

[naive abyss]

Yes after a period of literally having won

[jaunty dawn]

and "if one member gets too powerful the others will ally and win" is literally just the status quo of the great game

like that's just how it works

[spice flicker]

Thr big birds are cool and the fact that daemons can mix in 40k means I could take a tzeentch/khorne list if I wanted.

[naive abyss]

I'm still so sad about aos tzeentch as a faction

[jaunty dawn]

like I guess on the time scale of the great game being ascendant for a time doesn't really read as won haha

if your eventual loss is a key feature of like. what the great game is

[desert jay]

How do you build armies in AoS if you can’t mix? B/c AIUI one god lists in 40k are pretty limited and the two share models

[azure heron]

Wasn't there that one time where a completely loyal space marine chapter prayed for the Emperor for a way to tell truth from falsehoods? But unfortunately Tzeentch was listening in and snapped his grubby fingers to make them hear every lie told in the galaxy at any given moment.

[spice flicker]

I hear they're pretty good so what's wrong?

[azure heron]

The chapter soon went full Chaos.

[jaunty dawn]

because in aos they have monogod mortals

[naive abyss]

Their mortal soldiers suck visually imo

[jaunty dawn]

and uh. better rules

faction mechanics etc

[thin ibex]

apparently getting shattered with his survival plan was when sorcery may have appeared in the mortal realm

[naive abyss]

Like I loathe the thousand sons out of armor dudes

[thin ibex]

the tzaangors?

[floral herald]

Yeah that’s a thing, I forget the name of the chapter though

[naive abyss]

Their infantry should look like the cypher lords

[spice flicker]

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Scourged

[naive abyss]

No those are cool

[jaunty dawn]

wouldn't that make them look even more like thousand sons lol

[thin ibex]

oh gotcha

[naive abyss]

In some ways yes

[spice flicker]

I don't like the tzaangors tbh

[naive abyss]

But physically no

[jaunty dawn]

I like the skyfire tzaangors

[floral herald]

Oh it’s these guys

[jaunty dawn]

they fly around

[thin ibex]

i got no beef with the taangors, i think they have some pretty cool models, especially like the ascended ones

[floral herald]

The Scourged

[azure heron]

Yeah, these guys. Because if anything says that Chaos and especially Tzeentch could "win" anytime they wanted, it's this.

[thin ibex]

i don't like how they're kind of bad on the table, but they do provide a good "bottom tier" option for what would otherwise be a mid tier elite list

[spice flicker]

I prefer my thousands sons lists to be dustbins

[azure heron]

Call me insane, but I'm like the one person in the world that likes Tzaangors. I just think they're neat.

[floral herald]

I mean, the chaos gods stay winning every second of 40K, it’s in the setting intro even

[desert jay]

You’re not alone, there’s also whoever at GW made the combat patrol box

[azure heron]

Yeah, it's called the Great Game for a reason.

[naive abyss]

like this isn't the vibe i want for trench infantry

[naive abyss]

I also like them

But yeah the kairics are like weird bare chested muscle soldiers for some reason

And are not coed which is cringe

[azure heron]

They took "working out at the library" too literally.

[spice flicker]

Isn't the Lore that they look this way because of a potion or magic that let's them physically increase their power when they go to war? Servants of the lord of change changing for a fight?

[thin ibex]

if it is, itd be nice to communicate that in the models somehow

[naive abyss]

Yeah sure that's the lore

[thin ibex]

like characters mid transformation or something

[mental birch]

They look like Yu Gi Oh carda

Carda

[floral herald]

https://tenor.com/view/rick-and-morty-woah-there-get-it-gif-10066792

[naive abyss]

But functionally they are bare chested muscle men

[floral herald]

I think them being basically like this is pretty funny

[dense sedge]

Sons are my favourite of the 40k lore

[jaunty dawn]

a unit like the changeling would be cool

like his armour is neat

[naive abyss]

But like the cypher lords literally exist lol

[desert jay]

Time to get the green stuff out and make half of them buff ladies

[naive abyss]

And are just way more tzeentch in design imo

[jaunty dawn]

I feel like kairic acolytes probably partially exist because tzaangor are an option

[thin ibex]

so knowing very little about aos

those cypher lords

already look

like tzeentch people

[naive abyss]

Exactly

[dense sedge]

Can tzeentch even use those?

[thin ibex]

big hats, glaives, vague air of snobbery; the cloak, the fan

[jaunty dawn]

so liking tzaangors and not liking kairics is just as planned

[thin ibex]

its all there

[naive abyss]

They even have hidden mutations and weird mind control shit

[naive abyss]

No

[jaunty dawn]

tzeentch can't because the ally rules are. a little odd

[naive abyss]

Which chaps my ass

Only slaves can take them

[jaunty dawn]

tzeentch can use random marauders from std

[dense sedge]

Acolyte’s mortal options aren’t great imho

[naive abyss]

Agreed

I loathe kairics

[pine matrix]

It'd be a fun adventure where the PCs are investigating multiple cults that are beefing with each other and it's all been orchestrated by a Tzeentch cultists, who's plan is contradictory on purpose, to better please Tzeentch

[jaunty dawn]

but because you need a warlord trait to make cultists anything other than undivided they don't qualify for allying into any of the monogod factions

[dense sedge]

T angora and kairocs do t do it for me despite my liking of tzeentch

[floral herald]

Not being able to soup chaos feels so weird to me coming from 40K haha

[jaunty dawn]

skaven and beasts can just fine

but the rules that stop you like

[dense sedge]

Best stuff we’ve got from it is ephilim but that sticks in an expensive underworld starter

[floral herald]

How do the daemonic armies even work? Like 50% of the monogod lists are ass in 40K at any given time

[jaunty dawn]

bringing a khorne only model from std or beasts into say tzeentch for example

hit the cultists in the crossfire

they work cause you have mortal options and because the rules are designed to make them work

[desert jay]

I just asked about that, AoS also has mortals in those lists to fill them out

[naive abyss]

Tbh I'm a hobbyist so I could do whatever

[jaunty dawn]

like

pink horrors are the tarpit from hell in aos but are kinda neutered in 40k

[naive abyss]

Or just say the cyphers are totally kairics

[floral herald]

Oh, how did I miss that haha

[jaunty dawn]

I think they make good tzaangors tbh

[floral herald]

Whoops

[jaunty dawn]

wanna do that for warpcoven

[naive abyss]

Tzaangors are buff

They're the non tricksy buff ones

[jaunty dawn]

I just mean mechanically

they have the same weapon options pretty much

aos is also just like

a lot more happy to design for spamming a unit?

so low option armies are less constrained than 40k because it's pretty normal to have an army that uses a lot of the same unit

being able to build around any of your units is what gives you options

[floral herald]

Oh that makes sense

[desert jay]

Yeah and I suppose no one needs to bring vehicles or anti-tank or etc to be well rounded

[jaunty dawn]

whereas in 40k you take like 2 of everything and if that's 2000 points every army looks the same

aos is also kinda lower model count in general I think

a lot of factions are able to do custodes style

[naive abyss]

Fair

[jaunty dawn]

subfactions tend to like buff a specific unit to create a unique playstyle rather than offering a twist to an army that doesn't change much

[naive abyss]

Like to be clear my angle with this is more the actual visual design

Cuz overall I care way more about that lol

[tepid stratus]

Idk if this was answered or not just trying to catch up with chat but in AOS chaos armies are divided by god. So khorne daemons are in the same army as the blades of khorne (the world eaters equivalent for simplicity's sake). There briefly was an army list in 2nd edition that let you run all the daemons as one army but it got scrapped for being too difficult to balance, albeit it did return in a lesser form as a sub faction for slaves to darkness (undivided chaos) with the gimmick of taking lesser daemons and giving them limited access to the Army's rules

[tepid stratus]

You've clearly never had to paint them then lol

[thin ibex]

they look good though!

[pastel rampart]

It's best to think of the Great Game as a game of Munchkin where everyone is throwing awful cards at everyone to prevent any single person from winning.

[naive abyss]

?

[tepid stratus]

At first glance yes but if you get your hands on them the sculpts are fucked. Especially on the legs, they'll have half a kneepad sculpted while the other half is smooth plastic or armour plates flattened out just enough that you can tell it's was supposed to look like layered plates but instead is just slightly rounded bumps on the armour

Trim that looks fine on one leg but melts into the plate on the other and just a bunch of small details on the legs especially that are just fucked like someone smushed that part of the mould and never fixed it because it's been the same problem on every set I've seen between mine and every other tzeentch player I know

Thankfully that issue doesn't extend to the enlightened but for some reason GW is willing to sell a fucked sculpt for the basic tzaangors

[thin ibex]

damn, well I can't speak to the construction of them, but I do still stand by them looking pretty good wherever i see them

enlightened are my preferred fwiw

as far as aesthetic

i like the bows and the flying n whatever

if i ever did tzeentch aligned army, id probably have them despite them not being very rules good

[tepid stratus]

I run 20 basic tzaangors in my AOS lists

[junior summit]

I hate that I can hear this gif

[thin ibex]

oh i meant the enlightened

[tepid stratus]

I don't have enlightened yet partially because I want to paint what I've got and also because they're fucking expensive for a box of 3

[thin ibex]

cause i think they look neat

oh i get that

my ambitions to take my tau army to 2k are on long term hold atm

but im very happy to have enough to play at 1k

and combat patrol

because money

i still wanna grab a hammerhead at some point, definitely gonna be on my 2k list

[tepid stratus]

In fairness main reason I have a tzeentch army is I got 3 vanguard boxes on the cheap and got a bunch of horrors and some foot heroes second hand. Only things I had to get at full price where the endless spells and two LoC boxes for Kairos and a generic LoC

[thin ibex]

also strongly considering a stormsurge just cause as far as points vs cost, it might actually be cheaper than buyin a bunch of other models

and it would let me fill out a 2k list a lot easier

[tepid stratus]

Yeah, especially with the cost of fire warrior and crisis boxes these days

[thin ibex]

its good that i don't hate the model, and casually it seems like it'll do me just fine

even if it is a bit of a

magnet

my biggest hesitance, and thisll sound silly, is that it doesn't really fit with my internal lore for my force

being a primarily Hive City fighting cadre

a stormsurge can absolutely find places to fight in a hive city, don't get me wrong

but its definitely not a tunnel fighting battlesuit

[tepid stratus]

I think your underestimating how big open spaces in a hive city can be

[mental birch]

Silly idea i have kitbashing the snake sisters from fantasy and the

Electropriests

Blue snake cyborgs

[spice flicker]

Necropolis is a book I should listen to again at some point now that I think about it with this hive talk

[tepid stratus]

A stormsurge could easily hunker down and hold a transit or train tunnel because hive city infrastructure is MASSIVE

[thin ibex]

this is a good argument

and i like the imagery that makes in my head

a stormsrge would be like a walking FoB

[spice flicker]

Fob? Forward operating base?

[thin ibex]

yeah

as in wherever it decides to lay anchor will be a point of relative stability

where forces can rally or sortie from

[tepid stratus]

Look at some gameplay footage from that bounty hunter game or darktide. Hive cities may have tunnel networks everywhere but they're far from cramped

[spice flicker]

Under the ground it's on gets sabotaged and the mech falls a few stories

[tired cairn]

Hive cities are kind of hilariously airy. There freaking fly planes or even small spaceships through them

[jaunty dawn]

stormsurge is also something I would place in the category of things that would 'realistically' be off the map

[naive abyss]

Man I get debating what I want to do with my vamps in old world

[tepid stratus]

Like keep in mind, valkyries can fly around in a hive city to move troops and supplies and idk if you've seen a valkyrie model in person but they're big

[thin ibex]

Oh I agree, but I think goodyear is giving me enough like narrative grounding to feel like the stormsurge could be a part of this cadre

[tepid stratus]

Cry because they're being legends... At least that's my plan

[jaunty dawn]

yeah what I mean is they're not necessarily like

[naive abyss]

Cuz I like khalida with tomb kings but she feels wasted not fighting vamps but I also plan to do ostermark which also feels wasted on not fighting vampslol

[spice flicker]

sees a manta fly through the hive city, "this is getting out of hand."

[jaunty dawn]

in the deepest parts of the city

[naive abyss]

They'll have rules and technically have access to more new models lol

[jaunty dawn]

they're doing stuff like anti-air work and artillery stuff

supporting the cqb combat

which is still part of the cadre

[thin ibex]

the TLDR is that the cadre/coalition is originally from Sacea, but helped establish the new sept that includes the Hive City that I've yet to name. The city willingly surrendered, but insurgents, xeno infestations, and cults remains a constant problem; and the Commander has their work cut out for them to work with the guevesa collaborators and his own limited forces to meet the demands that the various foes place on the new sept city

[jaunty dawn]

if you like the model its nice to have a centrepiece in a collection :)

[tepid stratus]

Sure but those rules will never be updated and won't be tournament legal. Also old world is set before Sylvania is taken over by vampires if I'm getting my timeline right but it's still a tragedy that vamps and lizard men are being left out

[tired cairn]

Iirc, in one of the darktide maps you can see a voidship being repaired

[thin ibex]

alongside that he has to help protect the other castes trying to bring hte city up to the standards of the tau'va

[tired cairn]

I'm assuming an escort but scale is hard to tell

[spice flicker]

If anyone wants to read a book about battles in a hive city I suggest necropolis if you haven't read it yet.

[naive abyss]

It's after the first vampire war

[jaunty dawn]

I don't know that we know that

wrt legends status

[naive abyss]

Fair also we don't know that they won't be updated

And I'm ultimately indifferent personally about the tournament thing personally but I get why it's a bummer

[jaunty dawn]

like the article says legacy and all the legacy stuff for hh is tourney legal

[spice flicker]

Idk why but when I picture tau fighting through a hive city I can just see drones being spammed everywhere

[naive abyss]

Yeah there sorta assuming it'll be treated like how it is in 40k

[pastel rampart]

https://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Vampire_Coast PIRATE VAMPIRES ME MATEY

[jaunty dawn]

and there's not really any guarantee any of the other rules will get updates either lol

[floral herald]

I think it’s a Sword, which makes it about as big as the Mourningstar

[naive abyss]

While yes they're cool not really my current dilemma lol

[spice flicker]

Go with vampiric bretonnians like the Red Duke.

[naive abyss]

They stated that just means they're the focus and most likely to get new stuff currently

[floral herald]

And supposedly 19 km away

[tepid stratus]

From this article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/23/old-world-development-diary-the-main-factions-revealed/

[naive abyss]

Again not my issue and Im using my homebrew

[tepid stratus]

All the armies not listed are getting a pdf at launch and that's it

[naive abyss]

Considering they still have plans ostensibly for Cathay and kislev who aren't listed period lol

[naive abyss]

I mean they said they'd have basic rules in the main book if memory serves

They never said anywhere though they wouldn't be tournament legal

They just aren't the current focus

[tepid stratus]

We haven't heard hide nor hair of Cathay or Kislev since their initial articles. Major missed opportunity for Kislev in a launch box IMO

[naive abyss]

They are on the maps

[jaunty dawn]

tbh if there's rules you can use and you don't use them because of like. arbritrary stuff about the manner in which they're published that's a choice you're making as much as it is gws

[naive abyss]

Like with heraldry and everything

[jaunty dawn]

lamenting the idea of legends rules while refusing to just get together and play with them is just ???

[naive abyss]

They even did an article focused on the cathay map

[thin ibex]

cathay would be a cool army to get content for, but I don't think I'd expect it

if its coming though, thats neato

would like to see their style of dragon

[naive abyss]

Like there's plenty of things with old world I can belly ache but I'm trying to at least be happy my fave fantasy setting is getting some sorta stuff wargame wise again lol

[tepid stratus]

I lament it as someone who has seen what happened to AOS armies that got the legends treatment. They quickly fell behind the power and mechanical curve and are so forgotten they aren't even included in first party army builders

[spice flicker]

Artillery heavy chaos dwarfs when?

[naive abyss]

It was stated as planned and it and kislev are actively on the maps they've shown

[tepid stratus]

Like chaos dwarves still technically have an AOS army list. But looking at the army builder on the AOS app would make you think otherwise

[thin ibex]

oh thats pretty sweet

[naive abyss]

I mean they've literally said the old ranges are gonna be sold for the non focus factions

Which imo makes it a bit different

[tired cairn]

If I could math better, this would be easy to verify

[naive abyss]

Cuz you can't buy chorfs from gw sans the human thralls in warcry

But based on what they've said you'll be able to buy the non focus factions

[jaunty dawn]

yeah I think that bringing up back fantasy models to being in production is like. a bigger part of what old world's impact is gonna be than any of the rules

cause it's not like people who wanted to ever stopped playing fantasy in one form or another

[tepid stratus]

Pretty much all the non focus factions are still sold because they double dip with AOS already lol

[naive abyss]

Only three of them do

And ostensibly they'll bring back relevant oop models hopefully

[tepid stratus]

Vampire counts, lizard men, ogres and dark elves are still all sold as AOS kits

[naive abyss]

Scuse me four. I forgot ogres

Only some delf are sold

Like a fraction of their range

[tepid stratus]

Naw basically everything but the Reaper Bolt thrower is still sold

And a few named characters

[naive abyss]

Aight whatever

Tbh doom as you like

[spice flicker]

If I ever get into dark elves it will be because of the hydra, favorite mythical monster.

[naive abyss]

I'm trying to at least sorta stay positive but you do you I guess

[tepid stratus]

Sorceress, dread lord, black dragon, cold one knights, both chariots, all the witch elf stuff, corsairs, darkshards, bleakswords, executioners, black guard

How is saying the majority of the range is still purchaseable dooming?

[naive abyss]

K

This entire conversation is literally about you dooming over old world

[thin ibex]

i know i want a riptide to be different, but I don't know what I'd change about it, statistically. maybe make the ion gun able to OC into Str 10 would do it? Or make it able to use its nova charge more than once?

[tepid stratus]

I'm dooming over my particular faction sure but I'm also willing to point out that a bunch of these kits are still around and won't need too much effort too support

[spice flicker]

So I was looking over the champions of death supplement for AoS Soulbound and man do I want to play a nighthaunt in a campaign one day.

Either guardian of Souls or a knight of shroud

[floral herald]

VC not being the the old world seems weird, weren’t they a real popular faction?

[jaunty dawn]

nova charge feels like it could be more interesting and core to the riptide yeah

[thin ibex]

my Aos army getting plans have been on hold for now pretty much indefinitely, but whenever it comes up i still am not sure if id rather do orruks, ogors, stormcast, or daemons

[tepid stratus]

Champions of death is such a good book

Really gives good context to what it's like to just be one of the various undead

[spice flicker]

Also CoD got me to like wights more than the vampires in soulblight somehow.

[thin ibex]

yeah my thinking was that just making its guns stronger would make it the same problem it was before, and would not be interesting, but giving it access to its steroid more might be neat, or some other lever to sometimes boost itself up

[tepid stratus]

Well better pick a god you like because just "daemons" ain't a thing

[thin ibex]

oh thats ok, I'd prolly go wit khorne, is belakor gone?

i thought belakor could do like soup demons

[tepid stratus]

Belakor is part of slaves to darkness

[jaunty dawn]

belakor can hang out with a couple of wimpy daemons

[tepid stratus]

Undivided chaos, mostly mortals but can soup lesser daemons

[thin ibex]

ahhh i see

belakor not a fan of anything that might rival his greatness i guess

[spice flicker]

I agree with this because beforehand I didn't really care for nighthaunt characters but now I like (and pity) them quite a bit.

[tepid stratus]

Last edition he could run all daemons but it got scrapped. Presumably for balance reasons because that army was whack competitively

[thin ibex]

ahhhh that makes sense

[pastel rampart]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/596197650332778498/1179460575026221128/image0.jpg?ex=6579dd42&is=65676842&hm=5ff710c5508acaf8b670b2e341d65a446ac78c00f0c719c11e1308d4f5fe3ad7&

[tepid stratus]

Joining a soulbinding just to be able to vicariously feel again is a vibe

[thin ibex]

hmm, so daemons does transfer to 40k, but id need to pick a god, slaves to darkness does NOT transfer to 40k

[jaunty dawn]

in std 3.0 they made him a bit more of a human focused rival to archaon

[thin ibex]

admittedly my biggest attraction to daemons as an army pick wa the dual purpose of 40k/aos

[jaunty dawn]

with the chaos legionaries and eternus

[spice flicker]

Playing either a guardian of Souls, knight of Shrouds, or a wight in soulbound is now on my bucket list of things to do with ttrpgs

[thin ibex]

cause if i collected enough daemons, i could then always have an army that I could let an opponent pick up if they didn't have an army

i do still have my ancient space wolves tho

which i could expand on

also yes, leman absolutely wears wolfy undies

they probably have a proper name with capital letters

[naive abyss]

They are there they just lost a big war is all

[tepid stratus]

For what it's worth mono khorne is fairly viable in 40k daemons and daemon heavy khorne lists are viable in AOS

[thin ibex]

like The Lupine Undergarments

[naive abyss]

And are more or less just licking their wounds in Sylvania

[pastel rampart]

The Lupine Undergarments of Russ are an incredibly rare and treasured artifact, said to once be worn by Leman Russ himself.

[tepid stratus]

Except for all those vampires that aren't von carsteins and still kicking around....

Missed opportunity to bring back neferatta to rival khalida

[naive abyss]

I mean she's in the silver pinnacle in theory

[spice flicker]

I wonder if we'll be getting any new factions that were "wiped out" between Old World and fantasy.

[naive abyss]

Like neferata in oldhammer was always more a indirect threat

[tepid stratus]

The silver Pinnacle ain't even that far away

[naive abyss]

It's across the whole empire

And brettonia

Like its near kislev

[thin ibex]

Considering how old they are, they can probably slice through power armor and banish demons at this point

[naive abyss]

Like I've recently been researching this for my homebrew vamps

[jaunty dawn]

hm

vampires

[tepid stratus]

Plus abhorash, the red Duke, Wallach harkon, the vampire coast, drachenfels and a bundle of other necromancers and vampires that aren't directly related to the von carsteins

[tepid stratus]

Exactly, it's right next to an area they're already covering

[naive abyss]

I mean yes

Not right now they aren't

The current focus is the south

And the civil war

[thin ibex]

I do wish that they just came out with modifier kits for the riptide to make the yvahra and rvarna rather than keeping them as they are; but i do understand that making a new product, even mod kits, was more expensive than just ruling up the existing ones

[tepid stratus]

I would have killed for this back when I played Tau

[naive abyss]

Does coast exist at this time?

[jaunty dawn]

hey wait

didn't this used to have and good and evil labels

for the two columns

we memed on it

[naive abyss]

I forget tbh

[tepid stratus]

Yes, they've been around for a while, mostly around the maelstrom south of ulthuan and in sartosa

[naive abyss]

Also I'm pretty sure abhorash is already secluded on a mountain at this point lol

[thin ibex]

i forget, lore wise, how long ago in the old world were the tomb kings awakened and active?

[jaunty dawn]

#973320472269848656 message

[thin ibex]

and did they stay largely isolationist/insular until the big boi woke up?

[jaunty dawn]

no one sent the image but we talk about it

wild

[tepid stratus]

Some are awake but they're mostly isolationist. They only really strike out to get revenge on people that steal their stuff

[naive abyss]

That or when settra wakes up lol

Cuz atm they are invading brettonia

[tepid stratus]

Like that time settra went to norsca to bully Surtha for stealing his crown

[thin ibex]

The everchariot himself?

[tepid stratus]

Yup

[thin ibex]

I'm sad that didn't make him an honorary legendary lord lol

In tw2/3

[jaunty dawn]

this was the original image

[naive abyss]

Who?

[tepid stratus]

Speaking of bretonnia, Mousillion is right there! GW pls your killing me here!

[naive abyss]

I mean again the focus is not that

[tepid stratus]

Surtha Ek is a norscan chief that had a brief rivalry with settra and makes an appearance in total war Warhammer games

[naive abyss]

It pretty obviously is focusing on existing factions whose ranges more or less were gone or are the like core factions in the setting

Like doing mousillon would basically be a new range

[tepid stratus]

Beastmen? Neither core, ever mattered and whose range still exists in its near entirety

[naive abyss]

They are definitely core and matter

Like don't hate on a faction I like just because you are upset about the vamps

Like the beastmen are literally the main enemy of the welves

[spice flicker]

Tomb kings evil?

[naive abyss]

And are a common threat basically everywhere

[naive abyss]

Not really

It's likely why they changed the image

[tepid stratus]

That's likely why the revised image removed the good/evil titles

[naive abyss]

Like I love the vamps and I agree it'd be cool to explore the non sylvanian ones

Hell khalida and nef getting a like versus box where each gets a new old world model would kick ass

[tepid stratus]

I just fail to understand the logic that they're choosing to support the faction that barely existed on tabletop in old world and existed in lore to be avatar of khaine'd by everyone else instead of ogors, delves, vamps or lizard men all of which are more popular and narratively impactful

[naive abyss]

But like I'm not gonna pretend the vamps are a more omnipresent threat than the beastmen

[naive abyss]

I what?

What do you mean barely existed

Literally their current range is from oldhammer

[tepid stratus]

They only ever received two army books and otherwise spent their existence as part of the warriors of chaos army book during fantasy

It wasn't until 7th edition that they even had the fully fledged out army line they currently do

[naive abyss]

Ok tbh at this point I'm gonna ask we drop this. Cuz it's gone from airing grievances I can get and relate to. To you just shitting on a faction I like.

[tepid stratus]

Aight

[naive abyss]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/29/assault-marines-come-screaming-in-from-the-horus-heresy-studio/

[thin ibex]

Bam, Pedro feeling good getting the reinforcements from papa g man

[naive abyss]

love the DA HH scheme with checkers

Peak horrible space murder knights lol

[thin ibex]

I've been thinking that while the gladiator Lancer gets much deserved love as a premier AT sm choice

The reaper feels like a great pick on any list

Especially if you expect a surprise horde at some point

[desert jay]

Ska goth

[naive abyss]

Lol I guess?

[thin ibex]

I like the company heroes unit but it feels like it doesn't really do anything of its own

Except I guess as a delivery mechanism for a hero

[thin ibex]

but heroes are not especially high octane these days

[dense sedge]

No dark elves? Shame

[thin ibex]

hmm what other theme lists come to mind

[naive abyss]

They're there

Just not a focus faction atm

[naive abyss]

It does annoy be deeply this is uneven Ngl

Literally feels like something is missing lol

[bright dove]

Needs Vamp Counts.

[junior robin]

my dream pick would probably be Lizardmen from the city of Zlatlan, the one they got in Araby.

[naive abyss]

I mean again in the non focus group and can we not rehash that whole convo again. I meant in a like visual sense lol

[naive abyss]

In theory like kislev could be on the list as dealing with chaos but they likely don't have any models ready yet lol

[junior robin]

first sketches was posted may 2020 for Kislev, so hopefully something sculpted by now.

wonder what the chances are for new marauders with some more norse flavours/characters

[naive abyss]

It'd be cool for sure

It's weird they've shown nothing in that regard tbh

Especially since like they feature pretty directly on the map lol

[jaunty dawn]

maybe a direction change or something

since at first it was like. the only info for old world at all

[junior robin]

went down a old chaos minis rabbit hole and wow, slaanesh sure went on naval warfare.

[naive abyss]

Lol

[naive abyss]

I mean fair but like the current shown map explicitly features them prominently lol

Like this was in more recent articles

[jaunty dawn]

no I mean like

[naive abyss]

The hopeful part of me wants to think they're holding them as a big surprise but Idk

[jaunty dawn]

this is what they led with. it is weird that it hasn't been mentioned again

I am agreeing haha

[naive abyss]

That's what I'm saying

It's been mentioned again

That's what makes it extra weird to me

But fair lol

Mb

If kislev is gonna be some big surprise that'd be cool but I won't hold my breath either lol

[junior robin]

the design team cant agree on the amount of polar bear to put in it, one side wanting it to be the original kislev and the others want to spam it more then wolfs in space wolfs.

is my theory

[naive abyss]

Lol

[jaunty dawn]

polar bear :)

[naive abyss]

I just want some bear Calvary tbh

I like the balance total war has

[thin ibex]

what uh.... what does it do? Does it just row up to another ship and chop it's mast off?

[naive abyss]

Whatever it desires

[junior robin]

[naive abyss]

This reminds me that chorfs had a mecha squid

it's pretty cool

[junior robin]

even at sea does the chaos dwarfs take artillery seriously

[naive abyss]

Boat with a hat

Hat boat

[junior robin]

steam roller boat

[bright dove]

OK

But whY

[thin ibex]

you gotta cross to the rope bride to get to the cannon on the - checks notes - studded rolling pin

mounted on the prow

[junior robin]

to crush other boats

[thin ibex]

"Captain please put me on a normal ship"

this is a normal ship

[naive abyss]

Cuz it's silly and fun

As it should be

This is peak warhammer

[junior robin]

"the great leveller"

[naive abyss]

@untold swallow @last jewel

[thin ibex]

i like how the boats are like... 40% or more by volume of weapon

[untold swallow]

I am so confused looking at that

[thin ibex]

like the missile boat? That was mostly missile

[spice flicker]

What's a good amount of ghouls to have for a fec army

[naive abyss]

It's very simple

Roll enemy

Profit

[spice flicker]

Trying to theorycraft a list with the models currently available and can't help but feel like I don't have enough in the list.

[thin ibex]

see you shoot em, with the cannon

then

after shooting em

you roll em

classic technique

the shoot'n'roll

[naive abyss]

I mean Ngl I'd wait for the new models lol

[dense sedge]

That sea game had delf ships as all mounted on seamonsters which is rad

Well other than the infamous black arks

[thin ibex]

man i have no sense for drukharii list building

i always just go "some leaders, some troops to go with them. Transports"

[jaunty dawn]

dark lances

foreverer

[dense sedge]

Drukhari are cool

[thin ibex]

I'm going through and looking at factions I don't really build for and like drukharii I think are my least touched faction

And as we know I enjoy making lists lol

[rocky shale]

The answer is more dark lances

[dense sedge]

Dreadfleet was the boxed set naval game at a larger scale

I think

[thin ibex]

I went to go build a flesh tearer list but then remembered that the index chapters are in a word place where many of their associated units are either legends or otherwise gone rn

Like the only squad Gabriel Seth can technically join is a tactical squad atm

[cloud flicker]

Solaire :)

[naive abyss]

https://vxtwitter.com/WolfdawgArt/status/1729875468101521423

[thin ibex]

oh i know what i want to do, make a far more wulfen heavy sw list

[naive abyss]

13th company gang

[bright dove]

wolveswolveswolveswolves

[jaunty dawn]

wolfes

[thin ibex]

its very wolf

its not meta, but i think because its such a heavy skew list, it oculd actually work

that and almost everything on the list is rocking a 4++

[jaunty dawn]

harlequins

[thin ibex]

only thing is i really shoulda brought intercessors cause wulfen have OC 0

[thin ibex]

i wonder if i buy a stormsurge, should i just populate the rest of my list with anti infantry and anti elite

[past sphinx]

or u could buy a second one so it has a friend and someone to talk to

[thin ibex]

At that point I could just play knights lol

[proud wing]

yoo the aeldari have the divination wizard "store dice at the beginning and substitute them for any roll" mechanic"?

I fuckin love that mechanic

[desert jay]

Also Sisters of Battle

[naive abyss]

tbh its funny to me the thousand sons or tzeentch demons in 40k dont have that

considering thats the origins of that mechanic via aos

also very random but they should make a styx or assasins creed style thing where you play a skaven eshin assasin or something

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/vD82m6

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/WBv2LG

[pastel rampart]

I'd be fine with a dorf fort-like game where you have to care for a skaven warren but it encourages back-stabbing to keep population in line.

Every so often you gotta push'em to just murderize each other for laughs.

[floral herald]

Honestly a Styx-like but you play a horrible little rat would be sick as hell

[naive abyss]

yeah

idk why its not occured to me before ngl

[jaunty dawn]

animal crossing but you're evil and you're all rats

[naive abyss]

but it should be the inverse of most stealth games

whre you get a better score the faster you murder everyone

cuz good assasins must kill-thing quick quick

[alpine quarry]

I would love that so much

[naive abyss]

same

tbh my one complaint with styx is getting a worse score for killing people

like im a horrible lil goblin what do you mean

[alpine quarry]

tbh thatd get annoying quick

[pastel rampart]

It would have to be a game tailored to that sort of experience.

[naive abyss]

lol yeah

tbh i do want a dorf fort votann game

or something like it

[pastel rampart]

LoV with a Contra-like.

https://tenor.com/view/contra-hard-corps-contra-sega-mega-drive-konami-gif-22467069

[naive abyss]

lol

i crave teh lov content so bad

tbh more than anything i think i want an animation

i really wanna see how they move and shit

[naive abyss]

https://vxtwitter.com/WolfdawgArt/status/1729152035067461815

[topaz elk]

Rifles with bayonets being long enough to be spears: my beloved

[runic swallow]

Are you, perchance, a 1890’s Frenchman?

Because oh boy, I’d recommend looking up “sword bayonets”

[topaz elk]

fuck how did you know?

[junior summit]

enlength

there is a vaguely acceptable reason for it

you need a long bayonet to avoid losing the reach advantage to cavalry swords and lances but you also want a short handy rifle for rifle things, so the logical conclusion is to get a long ass bayonet that also doubles as a sword

[upper canopy]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/313840529622171660/1179495265170903250/GAHoeDiXoAEwjZy.png?ex=6579fd91&is=65678891&hm=e29547e7c2b631beeaea449089f927052c10b5426ecd86ff981774c79a1e5b8a&

[pastel rampart]

https://vxtwitter.com/JewelKnightJess/status/1729941612141179276

[glossy vapor]

hey, the main metric for how well a guardsman is doing isnt "how likely is death" and more "how long and painful will it be". in that department, necrons are pretty good.

/s

[proud wing]

ngl, i would rather be invaded by any other warhammer faction than live in the empire (besides dark elves)

with chaos gods or tyranids or whatever, at least you die when they kill you

instead of having your brain put into an I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream machine

[naive abyss]

do you mean the imperium?

[naive abyss]

with chaos not quite

you usually are taken to super hell or etc to be horribly tortured

[floral herald]

tbf you generally go to super hell if anyone kills you

[desert jay]

I thought it was just normal hell

Also uh… you absolutely do not want to be raided by Drukhari

[thin ibex]

Hey, chaos absolutely fucks with your soul when they kill you

And yeah drukhari might be the worst of em

Though nids also scare me

With the ol "guns who's ammo finds and eats all of it nerve endings"

abs the ever present miasma that suffocates you

Now orks? You're probably just gonna get killed or turned into slave labor

The one I'd most want to be taken prisoner by is probably tau

[tired cairn]

Wait, if super hell is the default, what is "having your soul eaten by Slaanash" then?

[floral herald]

Broadly speaking its the same but it lasts longer

After something with a soul dies the soul goes into the warp and uh

Has a bad time

Non-psykers only last a bit before they dissolve into warpstuff

Psykers last a while (years, centuries? what is time in the warp?)

Eldar, AIUI, last nearly forever in Slaanesh's embrace

[naive abyss]

Votann imo

[jaunty dawn]

eldar

craftworld

like their grimdark aspects are more like 'unfeelingly kill' or 'completely ignore'

feel like if they're bothering to take prisoner you're probably alright

[topaz elk]

Their prisons are probably way higher quality then most like, modern living spaces

Like craftworlds themselves are pretty idyllic

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

[topaz elk]

And yah if they take you prisoner it’s probably because they like you enough to not kill you

[jaunty dawn]

its more gonna be really surreal or something

[topaz elk]

Also like, so long as it isn’t Iyanden you’re pretty secure

Craftworlds themselves are some of the safest places in the galaxy

Except Iyanden

They specifically are fucking cursed lol

[jaunty dawn]

mm

[unreal cosmos]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/30/heresy-thursday-the-dark-emissary-brings-the-warmasters-unrelenting-gaze/

[naive abyss]

I dig it but I wish they had a funky helmet option

[unreal cosmos]

Might just not be shown, hard to say

[naive abyss]

True. But they usually show head options with this sorta thing as memory serves.

[jaunty dawn]

wonder if we'll get diabolist sooner or later

imagine we'll see an iron father with an array maybe

will be funny if space wolves get their like 3 different special wolf consuls haha

probably turn out great though

[naive abyss]

Lol

Tbh I still hope we get iron warriors in 40k

[pulsar cairn]

like a codex?

[unreal cosmos]

To me that's kind of redundant

I think that IW are one of those factions that exists to be a fun way to recontextualize the standard army models

But I think the same way about White Scars so,

[jaunty dawn]

new mark iii are great for them at least

[pastel rampart]

I could see a general Undivided codex that has all the non-aligned traitor legions in one book, if only because I don't think that 1) having one for every legion is a great or healthy idea, and 2) not many have enough for an entire book anyway.

[jaunty dawn]

iron warriors have always come out great using heresy models tbf

tbf that is just the csm codex once emperor's children get an army haha

[unreal cosmos]

Yeah

It would be fun to get, say, a character model for each legion, but I feel that way about every army

[pastel rampart]

I mean more like the 3.5 'dex with actual rules and army lists for the undivided ones.

[jaunty dawn]

it wasn't 3.5 level but 9e was pretty extensive

optimistic for detachment design too

[onyx elm]

Of course the safest place in 40k is something every other faction would attack on sight.

Talking Craftworlds

[upper canopy]

https://vxtwitter.com/mixuen_chan/status/1730197842659328472

[bright dove]

Saw Iron Warriors, have to do the obligation now

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT

[naive abyss]

True enough

I just wanna see daemon perty and have like actual warsmiths again

The irony is that the two daemon primarchs that interest me the most are the undivided ones

But that's partially cuz I find undivided chaos cool

In part due to chaos warriors

[jaunty dawn]

for me it's that the aligned ones are like. just bigger space marine-yer versions of that god's greater demon really

the rest are fairly distinct

or could be

undivided is cool

[naive abyss]

Like pert is a giant demon robot

[tired cairn]

How would this be different from the CSM codex?

[naive abyss]

And lorgar could be peak eldritch weirdo

[jaunty dawn]

they mention 3.5e style which had force org changes and stuff

[tired cairn]

Oh, hmmm

[naive abyss]

Like ironically I find the undivided primarchs more unique

[tired cairn]

I guess a few detachments do force org changes

[bright dove]

Ahhh, the joys of Iron Warriors and having big guns

[naive abyss]

Like the others by no means are bad just Idk it's like how the new cultist stuff is peak chaos to me

[bright dove]

Also, even the metal model for warsmiths were cool

[naive abyss]

And really distinct I feel

It was weird machine marines with eldritch stuff poking out here and there

i think about this custom mini so often

Cuz it kicks ass

[bright dove]

look at this doof

[jaunty dawn]

alpha legion got cultists and at that time they were like. veteran troops which always got infiltrate and a specialism. not just cheap chaff. the space marines themselves also got infiltrate for cheap. they could only summon daemons using cultists though

[naive abyss]

I wish chaos had a sacrifice unit to get unit mechanic

Cuz that's also peak chaos imo

[jaunty dawn]

mop could in 8th I believe

[bright dove]

Ciaphas Cain is a treasure

[crisp lance]

https://tenor.com/view/ciaphas-cain-warhammer40k-gif-24974202

https://youtu.be/oRozBAIbaG4?si=jAJKoxd7Dnp-3yTy

[bright dove]

That video is just

[crisp lance]

Iiiiits coming Cain!!!!

Times running out!

[upper canopy]

Idk it kinda shtinky tbqhwufamsmhsmhsmh

[thin ibex]

I'm curious, i know the conversation has moved on but could you expand on that? I always felt narratively they and the IW maintain a fairly strong identity, though I can see why you'd consider the IW as such due to their general aesthetic, im more surprised at the White Scars one. Mostly cause I feel as though, while the WS are certainly not as narratively explored as some of the other chapters that gained their own models n such, I think they have strong enough theming already to be worthy of their own codex were the opportunity to arise

Mostly cause as far as a more "standard" army for models in the sm, I can see IF, UM, and even RG

[unreal cosmos]

It's kind of twofold, or morefold, I haven't really taken the time to itemize me thoughts

[thin ibex]

no worries and no rush if you want to take more time, can always come back to it with a reply ping

[unreal cosmos]

The easiest part to summarize is "Do we really need MORE Space Marine models and rules when most armies don't even have upgrade kits from their subfactions?"

[thin ibex]

ah yeah, I think thats a valid perspective

i absolutely think that we need less SM models; though my very un-thought out solution has always been to reduce the main-line collection to enable more room for specific options. Which i think is a dirty fix at the end of the day

the range benefits from a large neutral pool

but in the same veign

i think neither the BA, BT, or SM needed quite so many unique units of their own

they couldve gotten by with a fraction of unique units to establish their identity

fraction of their existing* units

[naive abyss]

My stance is we are gonna get more marines either way we at least need less generic marines. Also all firstborn models need to be taken out of the range more or less. Like the range bloat needs to be addressed.

[floral herald]

Blood Angels and Salamander yea, but BT the the least codex compliant chapter and probably deserve their own ruleset the most

[thin ibex]

for example, I really don't think the Space Wolves needed grey hunters, blood claws, or stormworlf. and I'm not wholly convinced that they need both kinds of Wolf Guard, Long Fangs, or the wulfen dread

Well, I'd argue that Space Wolves are an even less codex compliant than the BT chapter

[naive abyss]

I just want the scars to get more than nothing. Or as even more bare minimum give kosarro his bike back lol

[floral herald]

I think they would say that, but they’re like mostly codex but with funny names

[thin ibex]

They're not though?

[upper canopy]

In practice they are.

[unreal cosmos]

I think the other half is more complex and nebulous but the best way I can describe it is, I think people undervalue the appeal of a good paint job setting your guys apart. I enjoy the models as blank canvasses and I think that while you could lean all the way into White Scars' unique lore and aesthetic with the plastic and rules, I enjoy being able to tap into that with models that could just as easily be Imperial Fists or whatever.

[floral herald]

I’m just talking about the rules

The least codexy units SWs have are wolves (the big dogs)/thunderwolf cav, and lone wolves

[thin ibex]

lone wolves arent a thing yo

anymore

I think the least codexy thing the BT have are crusader squads. and thats kinda it

[storm schooner]

lone wolves stil exist in crusade iirc

[floral herald]

Organizationally they’re different but blood claws=melee intercessors, grey hunters=tac marines, long fangs=devastators, etc

[jaunty dawn]

bt only really have two unique units though

[unreal cosmos]

Also I just like underdogs, like at the risk of making myself look bad if my army doesn't have any special models or attention from GW... That's indie cred baby! That's being one of the cool kids!

[floral herald]

Crusader Squads are also really weird as units

And not being able to take librarians at all

[jaunty dawn]

oh I guess emperor's champ

[thin ibex]

the emperors champ is just a juiced company champ

[floral herald]

Land Raider Crusader way back when but people liked it too much

The company champ is just a weak emperor’s champ :p

[upper canopy]

The Lion is just a juiced company champ.

[thin ibex]

lol

[jaunty dawn]

but crusader squads and sword brethren are the bare minimum to establish identity haha

[floral herald]

Homeboy with the black sword predates them in the rules

Though that is an interesting thing to note - how many BT unique things have become normal SM things

[thin ibex]

My main point is some of the chapters have gotten a lot of attention and a lot of models, and they didnt NEED all of them them for their identity. Hell some of their "models" are just reorganizations of existing models or unique dreadnoughts

Most of the BT uniques are just like normal sm models +. Like normal tank + melta gun

[jaunty dawn]

the hq units and the tanks are 'unique' for purely like

editorial reasons

[unreal cosmos]

Anyhow @thin ibex I know the subject has shifted but I hope that makes sense

[jaunty dawn]

like if it wasn't for the chapterhouse related stuff the castellan would probably be just another captain model

[thin ibex]

I do also think that, from a like model production standpoint, the BT approach makes it even more approachable to do something for the WS

in terms of using potentially existing models to create rules for unique units

throw in some unique hero units

[jaunty dawn]

if tactical squads go away a primaris grey hunter squad would actually end up really unique

[floral herald]

Oh wait Castellans are another thing which got appropriated by the codex, they were basically (ok if you squint a little) lieutenants before those existed

[thin ibex]

but yeah, on my earlier topic, I really didn't think the BA and SW or hell, even the DA really needed quite so many of their own unique models to establish their identity

to step on my own toes, primaris grey hunters would be sick; though they'd just be a hybrid intercessor/assault intercessor unit

i.e. intercessors who all have chainswords

[jaunty dawn]

I think the thing is that like. these armies have the dedicated followings they do because people were there from jump. they were actually like different armies

in a game that had much fewer factions overall

like deathwing predates assault termis I think

[unreal cosmos]

Another way to put my blank canvas position is, if I buy a Khan on Bike and paint him up as a White Scar, that's just me following the instructions. If I take an Intercessor and paint him in white, maybe kitbash a topknot on, I'm making a decision.

[thin ibex]

i guess, i should also say; I love me my unique SW units. They're super fun, and I pick them both for flavor and play reasons, which is great. I just also think that we have like a bazillion heroes, multiple unique infantry and vehicle units an so on

[floral herald]

Bangels are also in an interesting spot because they used to have almost no unique models (just HQs iirc) way back when and were super popular

[jaunty dawn]

they were different armies before the concept of 9 legions even existed

[naive abyss]

While I get that it feels bad to have the one asianic chapter aesthetic unmodeled. Cuz it's unique and we already have six flavors of European marines modeled.

[thin ibex]

i forget, are the sanguinary guard good in the current edition?

[floral herald]

They’re fine aiui

[thin ibex]

they're effectively slightly juiced vanvets right?

[floral herald]

Bangels in general are bad though

[jaunty dawn]

like it's not like they arbritrarily chose only half the legions to be super cool they just made a bunch of cool chapters and then backfilled in the rest to fill the quota when the lore changed

[unreal cosmos]

I don't have an answer that won't make you mad

[floral herald]

(Admittedly, “codex bangels” are fine)

[onyx elm]

If you want to know what the upper hive citizen's kids are watching.

[thin ibex]

It's a bit funny also, with all the chapters that got a lot of support, the Iron Hands repeatedly became the best-in-sm subchapter multiple times

with next to no support

because their fate is so closely tied with how good vehicles are

as far as meta goes

[naive abyss]

I don't really get this Ngl. Like yes scars have to be converted to have something that looks like scars that's the problem tbh.

[unreal cosmos]

The thing that makes you mad is that Scars look like generic marines with a different paint job and the occasional upgrade sprue.

That is their established Look outside of special named characters.

[naive abyss]

No it's not

That literally is not what scars look like

[unreal cosmos]

It's what's in their codex

[naive abyss]

Like can you stop doing what feels like weird erasure of their cultural influences

[floral herald]

It wasn’t just that, they also had the original Captain Smashfucker, really OP dreadnought spam lists, were heavy weapon demons for a bit, and now are strong because heavy armor spam is hard to handle

The IH “niche” is lowkey being kind of broken in the current rules haha

[naive abyss]

Lol

[jaunty dawn]

I think the thing is unde like. It's really great that you have a strong vision for white scars and that is awesome. but that doesn't mean gw shares that vision

[unreal cosmos]

It's THERE it's just not traditionally widely represented by their models

[thin ibex]

IH stay winnin with effectively no unique units of their own

[unreal cosmos]

Any more than Salamander models play up their artistry

[naive abyss]

I mean there HH range literally exists. And just because gw can't be fucked to actually acknowledge the scars visual design with 40k doesn't mean it doesn't exist

[unreal cosmos]

It is on you, the hobbyist, to bring that to the forefront

[naive abyss]

Like that's literally part of the problem

[jaunty dawn]

the company and people that made those designs were literally different!

[unreal cosmos]

GW is the White Scars, you gotta understand this. They exist within the product

[naive abyss]

Yes

[jaunty dawn]

like we're not at all saying this doesn't suck

[naive abyss]

And it literally exists in HH

GW just can't be fucked with it in 40k

Cuz then people might actual cage rattle for more for them to stop being ignored

[unreal cosmos]

BECAUSE THERE ARE THIRTY OTHER FACTIONS IN 40K

IT'S NOT JUST SPACE MARINES (and co.)

[naive abyss]

Don't yell at me I literally constantly rattle cans for xenos shit. Marines are getting stuff either way. I don't think the world is gonna end if they stop doing generic marine releases for a bit is literally my point.

[thin ibex]

incidentally im kinda vibing playing salamanders in my next crusade, though that competes with sw, tau, and votann; and requires an actual crusade to be on the horizon

[naive abyss]

Like I'm not even saying give them their own dex.

Just at least give me more than a nothing upgrade sprue or something.

[unreal cosmos]

I'm sorry for getting heated. I understand your motivations but I really do think that like. You're ceding a lot of ground to the Ultramarines and co. by saying generic SM aren't also, in their own way, White Scars.

[thin ibex]

also slightly less tangentially; I kinda like the idea of chapter identity being more about seperate detachments over being entire other codexes. But i don't think any of hte extra dex chapters are gonna necessarily lose their codex either

[naive abyss]

They visually aren't. And no generic applies to ultras, fists, etc

The ones who visually fit the base marine look

Which tbh scars don't

[unreal cosmos]

30k scars still use the same base units as everyone else. They have a handful of special guys but it's not like SW where their Troops choices are different.

[naive abyss]

Genome tbh

[thin ibex]

I think a part of generic's point, is that all the chapters, not just the ws, absolutely fit into a base shape of the sm look

[naive abyss]

I'm sorta tired of fighting you in the hole where you just go "nuh uh" when I'm basically just asking for some cool space mongol stuff instead of European flavour number thirty yet again

[unreal cosmos]

I think saying that WS simply don't fit generic Space Marine models in general is like... I earnestly believe you've invented a version of the chapter that you like more.

[naive abyss]

No I havent.

Like they visually don't fit it that well without added gubbins

[thin ibex]

You know I was thinking about this, and it was like... their current detachment rules aren't bad perse, but they don't help a lot of what the BA want to do overcome important breakpoints. I think a lot like the secret SW detachment is stormlance, the same is for the BA, because getting into combat can be more important than being slightly better at it

[naive abyss]

Just like how wolves feel lacking without their gubbins

[unreal cosmos]

(haggard smile) I like smooth wolves

[jaunty dawn]

do you have any official art you like for white scars unde

[naive abyss]

Yes

[thin ibex]

I also don't actually have an issue with Grey Hunters -as - Intercessors, with their main paint job

or Blood Claws-as-assault intercessors

[jaunty dawn]

I think it'd be funny to give blood claws really small heads. makes no sense but still

[unreal cosmos]

Don't get me wrong, I like me some gubbins. I just don't think they're essential.

[naive abyss]

I don't which sure we can have different tastes. But you keep acting like I'm asking for more marine shit on top of what we know is gonna come out anyways when I really am not

[thin ibex]

you just made me realize that the normal bloodclaw heads from their sprues would be tiny on assault intercessors huh

[jaunty dawn]

not really

if they'd made everything bigger then the primaris wouldn't have better proportions haha

[thin ibex]

i think the wierdest bit of adaptive lore out of SW over the rubicon is "Grey hunters sometimes pick up an autocannon and grav pack and are Supressors. Just because"

[unreal cosmos]

Maybe i'm misunderstanding you then because if generic SM models just Don't Look Like Scars then how do we solve this

[thin ibex]

though i do understand that grey hunters make up the lions share of like the functional marine body of a great company

so they wouldn't all be infantry

[naive abyss]

Genome marines are gonna get more releases in the future

[jaunty dawn]

yeah grey hunter is kinda a rank more than anything

[naive abyss]

That's just the reality

[thin ibex]

its the funny situation of effectively having 3 primary ranks and one special one, barring specific roles in the priesthoods lol

[naive abyss]

I'm saying of instead of adding yet another weird niche primaris unit or whatever give scars something

[floral herald]

I'm in class so I can't get super involved but this WS discussion has gone far enough.

(This is a request to move on)

[unreal cosmos]

Fair

Sorry for sticking to it as long as I did

[floral herald]

nw

[naive abyss]

Can I share cool scars art or would that be considered continuing the topic?

[floral herald]

At the moment it would

[naive abyss]

Cuz I was looking for some to show penny

Fair

Apologies

[jaunty dawn]

you can dm me if you want unde

[naive abyss]

Noted

[jaunty dawn]

im interested to see

[unreal cosmos]

I admit it would be hard for me to not like, respond to them as an extension of the debate

[jaunty dawn]

it would be neat to see more units like the hounds of morkai

even if they're not the most interesting unit

planning on making some not!hound as just anti-psyker trained reivers eventually. maybe

I keep forgetting sternguard being white is an ultramarine veteran thing

slash codex veteran

but I think I'm gonna give mine white helmets anyway just cause it looks cool

it's just what they look like in my head

[thin ibex]

hounds of morkai are fun

though i do just wish reivers were better lol

also

i do also like the hounds as a unit id definitely be using in a Wolfspears army

cause they absolutely vibe with the whole pack hunters vibe

[unreal cosmos]

Deffo

[thin ibex]

Reivers weirdly kinda have a place in the less than stellar 1st company detachment

[jaunty dawn]

oh really

[unreal cosmos]

Plus, y'know, Phobos

[floral herald]

the Bangels gold helms is also cool forvets

[thin ibex]

since they can get the enhancement about actually killing models with battleshock

well

the reivers cant

but a nearby leader can

[jaunty dawn]

it is and it also always gives me super bioncle vibes lmao

[thin ibex]

effectively on failed BS, lose 1 model, or lose d3 models

which is actually not bad at all

[jaunty dawn]

that's cute yeah

[thin ibex]

(doesn't work on tanks of course, you can't delete tank by scaring it)

id also feel justified with Wolfspears to use the vanguard detachment rather than the champions of russ detachment

[jaunty dawn]

yeah

oh I just realised that death company intercessors actually came before hounds of morkai

in terms of alternative rule profiles

interesting

[thin ibex]

what do the BA got right now as far as uniques that aren't heroes? Sang guard, special dread, special predator. That's it right?

[floral herald]

huh, that is interesting

I think they still have faster vehicles across the board

[thin ibex]

everything else is a normal unit with special rules and special equipment?

[floral herald]

oh rip they don't

boooo

[thin ibex]

though, for a wolfspear crusade... does a repulsor feel like a fun mobile HQ/operations vehicle?

or is it too heavy

for the whole hunter vibes

[jaunty dawn]

death company and their vets is the big things

two special dreads I think

they have magna grapple stabby dread

[floral herald]

One of my favorite little BA things is their mad max ass vehicles they operate until the treads fall off

[jaunty dawn]

and now I just though about a furioso brutalis with gnarly magna clamps and I'm like oooooh

[floral herald]

Their 5e book giving Land Raiders Deep Strike cause they just drop them from low flying Thunderhawks was hilarious

[jaunty dawn]

repulsor is canonically a phobos favored vehicle

I think that's a little silly cause that was the land speeder storm you can't lie to me gw I was theeeeere

[thin ibex]

lol

yeah my conflict for flvor was that the repulsor is a heavy tank/transport

[upper canopy]

I think more BA stuff should be about how these perfect pretty boys are the most pointlessly aggressive people around

[thin ibex]

and the wolfspears would prolly favor troop carriers, light vehicles, and disruption tactics

[upper canopy]

I think the dichotomy is currently lost on how funny it is

[thin ibex]

but also a repulsor is nice, in my mind, as a force's logistical center as well

[jaunty dawn]

baal predator is fast :)

[thin ibex]

prolly has lots of supplies inside of it if you wanted

[floral herald]

I do like that

[thin ibex]

and maybe comms equipment

[jaunty dawn]

not everything but the baal is +2" base move and has advance and gain assault against infantry

I do think the repulsor works yeah

as like

the heaviest vehicle in the force as a fob

[thin ibex]

also helps cause then i can start with one and develop the force around it

over the crusade

still one of the funnier weapon profiles "Defense system, 18 attacks. Go wild brother"

because the didn't want to list every single storm bolter

on the thing

[jaunty dawn]

baal is also cool cause the dual assault cannon turret just looks good

[thin ibex]

it does

i wish the assault cannon had more shots, but 6 is its traditional right?

cause i also think the assault cannon looks arguably the best on dreads too

[upper canopy]

I can agree with that.

[thin ibex]

it appeals to my mental of "brrt for far away, smash for up close" and "if i kill all the infantry on the way there, i can punch the tank"

huh

wolfspear high mobility, big stealth, scary bois

does that mean i want to not use a dread on the list...

invictor sure, but dread bois are a lil bit plodding

[upper canopy]

Honestly for me

It's because the Dawn of War 1 intro is permanatly ingrained in my neurons

[unreal cosmos]

I think you could make it work

[thin ibex]

my mental would be the evolution of a smaller surgical task force needing to call in additional support over time

so having the heavy weapons on a repulsor is probably a boon

ok yeah i could vibe with that

bring a bunch of phobos boyos

a repulsor

maybe some speeders or a invictor

should prooobably have some kind of intercessors on account of the OC, but i think ill stick to a flavorful full phobos list

Yo I'm kinda vibing it

Yes they have air support

And also yes I know flyers are bad

But it feels cool for the Lil ground team to have a "helicopter" on overwatch

[naive abyss]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/959855447966371891/1179805521889472572/SmartSelect_20231023_140057_Facebook.jpg?ex=657b1e84&is=6568a984&hm=02ff91797315fe406f19e9e239926d77291c3ddcb572bca3e33c80b226bc75a2&

[thin ibex]

I'm not gonna lie, I don't because my little hand drill always feels like it's drilling off center

And I prefer painting a black flat than a weird oblong hole for the barrel

[floral herald]

I find pre-scoring the drill site helps a lot here

[jaunty dawn]

I like drilling the expansion holes on bolters

it's really nice

[floral herald]

Though I think drilled barrels whould be really shallow and painted black

[jaunty dawn]

negative space

[thin ibex]

Oh? Do tell cyan

Do you mean like

Scratch an ex

On the middle?

[jaunty dawn]

but yeah a good pilot mark and a good drill bit is how you do it

[floral herald]

I use a pin or exacto knife tip to score a spot right in the middle for the drill to stick to

[thin ibex]

K maybe I'll give that a try

[floral herald]

Otherwise I find that the drill wanders a bit

[thin ibex]

Cause I did not like going off center

[jaunty dawn]

cause a lot of cheaper bits don't really have like. a point

[thin ibex]

It looked weird

[floral herald]

I've got a lot of hand drill practice from being a magnetizing freak haha

[jaunty dawn]

so just a lesson in frustration unfortunately

the holes on bolter muzzle device is easy though. just match the diameter

close enough

[naive abyss]

https://vxtwitter.com/KokomiKitsune/status/1723126275626144117?t=JI7Hw7rXIRzP818wTqOZMA&s=19

This reminds me that there's rumors apparently that dkok are getting a full plastic range

[thin ibex]

iirc fliers in 10th do HAVE to come around round 2 right?

https://vxtwitter.com/mixuen_chan/status/1730064703727296736?t=wq1wLwZkg_dUtgwkmGcQcQ&s=19

[naive abyss]

Vibe

I'd love this put like a dwarf

Even this I'd probably buy tbh

[pulsar cairn]

i am scared

i imagine that since the sisters are part of the ecclesiarchy they're probably up there with the scariest imperial factions righ?

as in .w. probably don't wanna end up as their prisoner and stuff

[floral herald]

tbh I don't think its really worth ranking it mostly

it's gonna be a bad time

Sometimes it might even be a bad time if you're a guest

[pulsar cairn]

thinkin that cause real life church was scary enough

[long void]

those marine gnomes are based on the original plastic kit, which have a good, compact figure.

I wonder what other GW models would world like that...

[floral herald]

I think those are battle for Macragge press fit marines

[naive abyss]

Most old fantasy dorf sculpts

[floral herald]

So I guess an obvious next option would be the press fit gaunts from it though they might be spindly at that scale

[naive abyss]

Gimme the dwarf Lord pondering with his chin on his axe pommel gnome

I hope they bring this model back for old world

It's still one of my all time faves

[long void]

Yeah, that'd work fantastic as a garden gnome

[naive abyss]

Ye

I crave it Ngl

This model should have as many incarnations as possible

that or the dwarfs from the really old anvil of doom as a set

[long void]

I like this one too, but i dunno how long those horns would last in the weather

[naive abyss]

The horn helmets was the one thing I didn't like about fantasy dwarfs ironically lol

[thin ibex]

I like the winged helm look more aesthetically

[dense sedge]

Old world had a much more reserved feel than AoS does

[naive abyss]

Though the ones on here are so like elaborate that they work

[thin ibex]

Old world was more grounded imo

[upper canopy]

Different types of Fantasy

[long void]

i can see all those horns coming from the vision of high fantasy

[naive abyss]

I more mean the like tiny lil horns less old fantasy sculpts had

[naive abyss]

Tbh it's just a different kind of fantasy

[naive abyss]

Same

[long void]

warhammer fantasy pushes visuals to where certain elements are recognizable from the table.
Exaggeration, but not unfeasible

[naive abyss]

Or a standard face helm

[upper canopy]

That's why everyone has giant hats

[long void]

Like how big swords come from the logistics of sculpting and casting metal models in the 70s and 80s

[naive abyss]

Idk if I'd call everything feasible Ngl

Like land ships were a thing

And the lizards had magic satellite lasers lol

[pulsar cairn]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1014538083905052703.gif?size=64&quality=lossless

the lizards were cool

they would probably eat me alive tho

[naive abyss]

Depends

[thin ibex]

on a certain level, there was an idea of, insofar as grounding vs not, where the majority of your average warrior walks to battle, from a home they were recruited for, fights with steel, fury, and gunpowder (this being mostly talking empire), and maybe a little bit of magic from a war wizard. Now, the stormcast arrive in a cacophany of thunder and lightning, and they die only to be reborn again to fight in an eternal conflict. I do think the former is a bit more grounded, perhaps literally

[naive abyss]

Just stay off their lawn

Tbh I in some ways find oldhammer more ludicrous

Cuz a literal pike and shot formation can fight the lizards with magic space lasers

[floral herald]

It's a question of aesthetics not capability

[naive abyss]

Yeah. What Im sorta saying is faction discrepancy is higher in oldhammer I feel.

[long void]

Warriors descending down on lighting would be something that'd fit in a power metal album.

And a lot of Warhammer art looks like it'd fit a metal album cover.

[naive abyss]

Like most aos factions more or less match each other in weirdness

To the point that's what makes cos stand out as a faction lol

[thin ibex]

my take is that generally, and in broad strokes, Old World was more low-fantasy and AOS trends more high-fantasy

as far as on a spectrum

i think old world still classifies objectively as high fantasy

[long void]

I suppose AOS is more psychedelic?

[naive abyss]

Old world is high fantasy

[unreal cosmos]

Someone here once said that AoS was basically the same thing as LotR and it made me feel insane

[naive abyss]

Aos is power metal side of van art fantasy

[naive abyss]

That's a bizarre take lol

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/043dRw

[topaz elk]

Also the lizardmen are funny to me because despite the laser weapons otherwise their weapons are actually kinda, terrible compared to the rest of the world?

Like they’re using javelins and blow darts for their ranged weapons (that aren’t lasers)

[naive abyss]

Well ehhh

They use weird special materials

[upper canopy]

They make up for it due to the fact that Saurus are literally genetically bred killing machines

[naive abyss]

I mean in fairness most of the factions don't use gunpowder

[thin ibex]

it is a fun juxtoposition of "Has solar laser cannons" and "literally drops large rocks from a dinosaur"

[upper canopy]

But yes most Lizard weapons are Just Sharp Rocks in various flavors

Only the important boys get metal

[naive abyss]

Like its basically a sliding scale of gunpowder or magic

[tepid stratus]

I mean in fairness the stone their weapons are made of is celestite. Rock imbued with celestial magic

[naive abyss]

Except skaven

Who fittingly cheat

[naive abyss]

Old world

[long void]

... now i need to know if skaven try warpstone gunpowder

[naive abyss]

Like eat it?

[upper canopy]

Not in Warhammer Fantasy

[thin ibex]

i think in the old world, the majority of rocks dropped from terradons were just literal rocks, possibly smoothed by files or other abrasives

[upper canopy]

it's literally just rocks

[upper canopy]

yes

[tepid stratus]

Ah sorry didn't realize the convo was old world

[upper canopy]

warpstone bullets too

[topaz elk]

Yah I just meant low tech

As an actual force

Lizardmen are goddamn terrifying

[torn arrow]

yeah old hammer lizardmen are just Not!Mayans

[long void]

shooting, but maybe there's a reason it tends to be lightning guns

[torn arrow]

vs Not!Spaniards

[tepid stratus]

In that case I mean yeah they're basically biological terminators built to kill

[naive abyss]

Dwarfs and skaven fighting just out here doing fantasy ww1

[tepid stratus]

Made by wizards with no concept of chemical or mechanical tech so they skipped straight to magic lasers

[thin ibex]

as a human, the saurus doesn't even remotely need its weapons to kill a fully armed and armored you; they just also have those

[naive abyss]

I figured it was more aztecs

[torn arrow]

true

[thin ibex]

I figured it was just not!Indigenous Central and South Americans

[naive abyss]

And the Spaniards thing eventually sorta disappeared I feel lol

[torn arrow]

but damn it mayans are cooler

[upper canopy]

Mayans definitely did not commit as much atrocities as the Aztecs

[torn arrow]

Yeah it was mostly when they introduced Lustria