Well, a way to resolve this is to is to only give some weapons spillover
#Warhammer and Such
tired cairn
tepid stratus
I do think melee and blast weapons at the very least should get spillover in 40k
tired cairn
I also have heard that AoS is generally less lethal than 40k?
floral herald
Clearing hordes is certainly not that hard in 40k
tepid stratus
I also have heard that AoS is generally less lethal than 40k?
Yes and no. Things like mortal wounds are more common but so are feel no pain rolls. Armour values are lower in general, getting a 2+ save in AOS without some major investment of command points or a buff piece is rare. But also as I've stated damage values are lower in AOS too. So some matchups like nurgle into giants is low lethality while something like orks into beastmen will wrap up in an hour
+1 to save is both a universal stratagem and a universal spell but when only one unit a turn can receive them, sure that unit is going to be tanky but the rest of your units that are engaged or shot at are gonna feel the pain
So you can end up with a key fight on a primary objective being low lethality while the units going for a secondary objective are in a blood bath because all the strategic resources got funneled into a single unit trying to hold a point
Something else worth noting is while dev wounds type rules are more common, lethal hits is basically non existent outside of nighthaunt
40k has these pockets of hyper lethal matchups because so many armies have easy access to lethal hits options
floral herald
From Jetblackraider (account private so I can't direct link)
tired cairn
lmao
Look, the important part is they either sat on a backline objective or accomplished some secondary
floral herald
haha yeah
tepid stratus
Mark of tzeentch cultists go brrr
.357 blessed by the changed of ways
Unholy stub rounds for all
ebon forge
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/669025110916857857/1173722857822490624/image.png?ex=6564fd98&is=65528898&hm=e3e17fe17afbd736e57bd934f68e31d41e47c456ea46b23e35015ec254c1dfa0& confirmed Chaos ending in the Warhammer 40k RPG :3c
floral herald
Iiiiiinteresting
unreal cosmos
Lookin' good! It seems tricky to do a dynamic pose with dreads and you nailed ot
quaint compass
As soon as I touched their sprues, I was inflicted with malign inspiration and the path was clear to me
though the left one's hand was a bit of a compromise since I did want the arm to be raised higher
Man cork is a wonder material for basing
topaz elk
pulsar cairn
which one of the chaos gods is the best one at swearing?
floral herald
I struggle to imagine any of them having a decisive edge
quaint compass
Slaanesh also indulges in edging
lofty warren
pastel rampart
Tzeentch would drop excessively wordy and weird insults not unlike Cio.
pulsar cairn
since slaneesh likes to make people sad they are probably good at swearing
pastel rampart
THOU FOWL STRUMPET!
jagged dawn
We’re reorganizing ladies and gentlemen, my models and various painting supplies are no longer in a shoebox
tired cairn
Tzeentch would drop excessively wordy and weird insults not unlike Cio.
Tzeetch would drop those insults that gamers develop when they are watched by AI moderators
dense sedge
I wonder what sort of stuff that ghouls will get, they need more stuff
I like the new justice character, the courts need sone new battle line units though
At present they are the worst GW line imho
naive abyss
thats they fyreslayers for me lol
but were likely getting at least the summer king
i also desperately want skaven and beastmen to get some love ngl lol
jaunty dawn
the flipside of this is that aos single model units bracket much harder even now, and originally pretty much all bracketed like every other wound. compared to 40k there's a lot smaller a difference in nails, not just the hammers
attacks vs damage is much more about buff priority (eg +attacks from a command unit vs +damage from flaming weapon)
dense sedge
thats they fyreslayers for me lol
Those at least have magmadoroths
thin ibex
I feel like tzeentch insults are the kind you hear and are unaffected by but upon later reflection, they make you do "Hey wait a minute"
jaunty dawn
tzeentch insults you for things you haven't even done yet
dense sedge
Tzeentch reveals that they were actually your father
thin ibex
tzeentch be like zoom or reverse flash with the It Was Me Barry™️ moments
dense sedge
I’d bet that flesh eaters will get Sumerking the lord of masks
pulsar cairn
saw a caiphas cain book on sale but it's like the 5th book or something...
unreal cosmos
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/14/the-rumour-engine-14th-november-2023/ whatever you this is, I like it
naive abyss
It looks very votann Ngl
naive abyss
If memory serves that looks like their style of bionic arm
As ref
It has similar grooves and etc
Also the kill team had a similar looking mine
Another example of a kin bionic
unreal cosmos
Oh that would make sense
naive abyss
So maybe it's some kinda sapper unit
unreal cosmos
Sounds plausible! Or maybe just a Bomb Guy tucked into a larger unit
naive abyss
Sapper would be a fun parallel to the miners in fantasy Ngl
unreal cosmos
What if one of their jump pack guys can just rain charges on someone lol
naive abyss
I could see it yeah
I just like the idea is more than one new unit lol
Cuz we know jump troops are coming
jaunty dawn
they're like
shaped charges
they only really blow up a specific thing like you stick it on an engine
but otherwise it's like a meltagun for close combat that you can carry maglocked
will absolutely mulch anyone if you can get it to stick to them tho
unreal cosmos
Yeah bombs are melee weapons
unreal cosmos
That was another guess but I'm not so sure
pulsar cairn
don't tell me these are cheek guns
unreal cosmos
Mandiblasters
pulsar cairn
that's so silly 
jaunty dawn
just like real scorpions have 😌
naive abyss
There appears to be a cuff
It's very likely lov lol
Like the way the hand and mine look are nearly one to one to stuff in their kill team lol
mental birch
"Whaaaaat!?"
naive abyss
Jee I wonder what were gonna see from old world lol
ur getting me the great dorky one
jaunty dawn
my belthanos arrived and blimmin royal mail didn't tell me
was just sitting in the rain 😭
quaint compass
Wet bug...
naive abyss
Rip
jaunty dawn
the box itself is fine thankfully
naive abyss
Nice
quaint compass
DRY BUG!!!
pulsar cairn
do Skaven like cheese
naive abyss
In theory they like anything that's edible
And less edible in the case of warp stone lol
junior summit
From Jetblackraider (account private so I can't direct link)
tfw I sign on with the rebellion in some city called atoma
thin ibex
Tbh it must be pretty discouraging to lose literally hundreds of trained heretical guardsmen to groups of 4 nigh unkillable Inquisitorial agents referred to as "Rejects". I'd sigh too
pastel rampart
If there's one thing I hate about making my chorfs is cutting off the circular base they're on.
Stupid little plastic circles I need a saw to get through.
naive abyss
pastel rampart
Making a 10-man unit of blunderbuss dudes.
I got about...13 more left that I dunno if I want to make another unit of 10, or use'em as weapon teams.
upper canopy
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/11/14/the-rumour-engine-14th-november-2...
She's back
topaz elk
What… what are those?
junior robin
melta bombs 😌
topaz elk
Ohhhh
thin ibex
takes a special someone to consider their primary weapon melta bombs
naive abyss
Tbh a lov sapper team with one dorf just running with bombs would be funny
thin ibex
lol
pastel rampart
mental birch
Oh anyone here familiar with tau lists?
unreal cosmos
Bagpipes intensify
pastel rampart
thin ibex
Oh anyone here familiar with tau lists?
only a bit, but havent been looking hard at current comp stuff, why?
jaunty dawn
sylvaneth are so good
made a scythe kurnoth and a spiterider and they're just so cool
unreal cosmos
They're pretty cool
jaunty dawn
kinda think it would be fun to model up claw arms for the kurnoth to be dreadwood kurnothi
dense sedge
My brother is hoping that we see tk stuff
jaunty dawn
tomb kings
thin ibex
ahhh ok
quaint compass
thin ibex
what are the early thoughts on this game?
thin ibex
oo
im actually rather interested
might be a very tactile way for me to learn about the age of sigmar
naive abyss
My brother is hoping that we see tk stuff
we absolutely are going to lol
like the most recent image post about the previews had sand, scarabs, and skeleton hands lol
so unless they pull the worlds most massive gotcha and announce a new death faction for aos its gonna be tik lol
cloud flicker
I’m excited for the Kroot stuff :)
pulsar cairn
that would be weird
it also made me laugh
wait if a space marine is a gorilla what's an ork
upper canopy
A gorilla with a machine gun.
pulsar cairn
Dakka
past sphinx
Kroot and a single necromunda character model is best guess
Some like weirdly specific character that will have absolutely awful rules and look rad
Oh and the enforcers Taurus
pulsar cairn
can i be the kroot who has a gun emplacement on a monkey?
past sphinx
when youre a kroot half of the ecosystem is other kroot
like if your great grandma was a bird
and your uncle was a gorilla
jaunty dawn
nah it is more like cousins
but your great grandma might've had wings and your uncle might've been big and green
unreal cosmos
man... I like where my 30k list plan is at but I realize I don't really have any efficient backline scorers
I could strip one of my breacher squads down so they're not wasting points back there but I want my cool shield wall up front
past sphinx
what legion?
past sphinx
isnt that just the regular nightlords scheme?
big fan of the chaos nundams
think they work better than the loyalist ones actually
unreal cosmos
what legion?
Ultramarines.
weary dragon
Whats the Chaos one?
unreal cosmos
Whats the Chaos one?
the one pictured
past sphinx
yeah the nuns already have the penitent engine
and that has basically the same shape but more scrungle
actually damn comparing the two models now why did they get a second walker unit?
jaunty dawn
to go with morvehn vahl prolly
and she's probably partially a reimagining of karazmov
past sphinx
and she's probably partially a reimagining of karazmov
that would be such a disservice to the source material
just look at this lad
need to finish mine
Vahl on a war throne would be fucking rad as hell
i do think her missile launchers give a much improved silhouette to the war suit however
naive abyss
i really like vahls model ngl lol
but in general i like the warsuits
theyre a fun like other side of the coin to the engines imo
weirdo scrunglo torment nexus walker vs like knightly nun exo suits
past sphinx
yeah i can get that
bit like the gravis and terminator kits i suppose
even if all the gravis kits are spread out over like 5 boxes
naive abyss
sorta i spose lol
weary dragon
I don't know what I am looking at but it looks cool
tepid stratus
Progress on Kairos. I'm hoping to finish him by the weekend for a tournament
dense sedge
Kairo's is cool, it's a shame that tzaangors and kairic acolytes don't appeal to me since I usually really like tzeentch
although given how expensive GW stuff is, if I get another army alongisde my GSC (who are a money pit in themselves) I'd probably look at Malifaux or Bushido
tepid stratus
I like kairics and thought tzaangors where neat until I actually handled the models. I'd be down for more shit in the kairic style. Unlike the other 3 gods tzeentch kinda lacks visual consistency across their mortal range
dense sedge
Tzeentch needs a elite mortal unit in my opinion
tepid stratus
They're the only faction that lacks one unless you count tzaangor enlightened
Gimme doom knights or armoured wizard freaks like the curseling
thin ibex
The enlightened do look pretty cool
upper canopy
crisp lance
verbal ermine
huh, there ain't a hole lot of him left
unreal cosmos
ooooo
uneven ember
ho(le) dang
uneven ember
oohhh, pretty!
jaunty dawn
ooooh
serene kestrel
Danke, I call them my Wightwood Wardens
unreal cosmos
Look cool and alien!
serene kestrel
Ty 🙂
deft crest
tired cairn
Tall enough to box stiltman
pastel rampart
naive abyss
this feels like its using a historical photo as a ref and i cant tell if thats just my brain imagining it
its like in this uncanny valley of almost feeling cursed but not
quaint compass
What're some good sources for clawed hands? The new genestealer kit is nice-looking but I wanna open my options a bit
quaint compass
Something that'd fit on an Eightbound, so preferably pronounced
naive abyss
hmm ngl nothing other than maybe some sylvaneth models? is really coming to mind
maybe theres something in aos chaos that could work too
but not sure
thin ibex
anyone pick up the new AOS RTS?
floral herald
Don't actually do this but the Clawed Fiend miniature comes to mind
thin ibex
get any hands on experience with it?
floral herald
It looks neat
The IGN review was extremely funny to me but I might pick it up when I have less backlog
thin ibex
ive tacked it on to my steam wish list but don't think its in my soon-to-buy horizon
serene kestrel
anyone pick up the new AOS RTS?
I plan to
naive abyss
it seems fine. but gives me like bizarre we have dawn of war at home vibes which i know is maybe unfair to it but eh
thin ibex
but i find it appealing as someone not really IN the aos lore, as a bridge into it a lot like Dawn of War was way way back
naive abyss
like it seems well designed and etc
but something with the 3d models and animation doesnt grab me personally all that much
its almost like dawn of war if dawn of war took itself serious? i guess?
which isnt inherently bad in anyway tbh
naive abyss
The IGN review was extremely funny to me but I might pick it up when I have less...
im now curious what it said lol
serene kestrel
Im actually a big fan of AoS and 3 of the factions so Im fairly excited for it
naive abyss
i like aos too
thin ibex
i also feel like seeing the models and factions in motion would be cool for me, in terms of like gelling
what i see
naive abyss
like this is very much not like a "fuck aos" sorta thing to be clear lol
thin ibex
and setting expectations
serene kestrel
Ye ye, there are def some more things out of AoS I'd like to see more of but generally I think its a fun setting an absolutely gorgeous model line overall
floral herald
im now curious what it said lol
if Warhammer Fantasy/40K are punk & death metal, then Age of Sigmar is Imagine Dragons.
The funny part of it
serene kestrel
Ye
naive abyss
like one hundread and ten percent
floral herald
I think the reviewer is actually a jilted whfb fan and it SHOWS
serene kestrel
For sure, it's def like high octaine shit thats cool because it's cool
naive abyss
like it literally constantly reminds me of the sorta art youd see on like vans in like shit set in the eighties
where its like a wizard with a guitar and lightning behind them
naive abyss
I think the reviewer is actually a jilted whfb fan and it SHOWS
while i still hold that pain and salt in my heart thats definitely silly
especially considering oldhammer is not punk or death metal
serene kestrel
like it literally constantly reminds me of the sorta art youd see on like vans i...
its for sure that kinda shit
serene kestrel
Some goober guitar noodling while a man with big hair screams about fighting evil wizards (see gloryhammer)
naive abyss
well i wont use gloryhammer as example cuz as memory serves theres some shit going on there. but yeah like its unleash the archers style shit or etc
serene kestrel
Battle beast then
naive abyss
like im definitely to a degree a snubbed fantasy fan and have quibbles with aos. but aos is still really cool in a variety of ways lol
thin ibex
I feel like this is AOS
naive abyss
no yeah exactly
thats like legit what i was saying prior lol
but yeah aos gave me kharadron and gloomspite
which are some of my fave like dorf and gobo things
floral herald
I'm sorry but this feels strangely relevant
thin ibex
I'm sorry but this feels strangely relevant
wheres the token lion roar or the red hawk sound mixed into the explosion
untold swallow
Pain
torn arrow
Yeah any lingering dislike I have is just AoS being instead of the game I like
On its own AoS is amazing, its just pure powermetal fantasy
Every new unit I see is the dopest shit
tired cairn
How grim dark was Warhammer Fantasy Battle?
naive abyss
it varies
like allot
not that grim dark on average though tbh
like its more like grimey than grim imo
i think the darkest it gets is like the mark of chaos cinematic
which is great imo
thin ibex
it was as grim dark as a medieval-ish setting where the monsters in the woods are real might be; which is to say both grim and dark, but not really super duper grimdark
the grimdark nature of the fantasy setting had a lot more to do with chaos and the forces of undeath eroded at the empire; but until the End Times, it was largey a net neutral rather than "Everything is actually fucked and you're watching the bloated corpse rot"
floral herald
It's not really a "grimdark" setting like 40k is, which I think is kind of how it gets conflated
Since a lot of people (including me in the past) get introduced to warhammer via 40k and read fantasy as "the fantasy version of 40k" which implies a lot of stuff about it which isn't true
thin ibex
like it still kinda sucks to be an imperial peasant sure, but it doesn't suck like it does being an Imperial Hive factory worker
also it sucks less to be an imperial peasant than it does to be a brettonian peasant
naive abyss
yehp
naive abyss
like it still kinda sucks to be an imperial peasant sure, but it doesn't suck li...
also a big thing is there are like legitimate heroes and "good guys" in oldhammer
like in vermintide everyone but saltspyre is a good guy more or less lol
floral herald
While in darktide everyone is bad except for like, one of the zealots maybe and the loner psyker who hasn't done anything wrong ever
upper canopy
In Warhammer almost all the best people ARE in charge
Karl Franz and Louen Leoncour are the actually shining paragons who's main failings are an inability to address the status quo because The World Is On Fire
pastel rampart
WHFB wasn't anywhere near as grim or as dark as people thought it was. The RPG sure was, but the actual wargame? Eeeeeh not really.
Like 6th and 7th were notably darker in art and tone compared to previous editions, and even like half of 8th ed. But that coincided with 40k also getting more grim n' gritty, which it has stayed a lot more consistent with that tone.
naive abyss
like another could like gauge of the vibe is river trolls attack people by vomiting at them lol
thin ibex
its a setting that isn't overall grimdark till the end times, but a setting that has grim dark moments, might be a summary i go with
40k is much more grim dark
naive abyss
it also very much depends on who you are and where you are lol
pulsar cairn
torn arrow
How grim dark was Warhammer Fantasy Battle?
Warhammer Fantasy was always a medieval pastiche setting
so you have french/english bretonnians talking about peasants and making monty python references while also being a horrible grim's fairy tales land
or the empire being Very German Provinces
Kislevs are just russian
dwarves have an event called The War Of The Beard
and hold grudges and avenge grudges but every time they avenge grudges they have more grudges for the people who got killed avenging the previous grudges...
so it was grim but always leavened with a kind of side eye humor
that 40k gradually lost
Bretonian peasants are promised a single copper coin :^)
And every single dwarf lore entry is someone complaining that things used to be better in the old days
upper canopy
Warhammer Fantasy wasn't satire but it was, a lot of the time, parody.
Which at times played things completely straight and did it fucking sick as hell a lot of the times when it did.
pulsar cairn
i imagine inviting a custodes to my tea party would be kinda rough
no way their name would fit inside the invitation...
pastel rampart
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHg81Ga69YI Godd the casting on this is awful
thin ibex
You know, the imperial fists urge to build defenses even when attacking is something I can identify with
Imperial fists fight the same way I do in RTSs (I am bad at rts's though)
glossy vapor
considering buying just like, a a breacher squad and then maybe a crisis to paint up for solely modeling purposes (i really dont think i could get into this game unless it had alternating activations, and even then mechanically its not really what i want).
does anyone have recommendations of what hobbyist tools to have starting out painting and assembling?
thin ibex
Like really really starting out?
Some brushes, some paper towel, a mug for paint water, a shoe box for priming/spraying
Maybe a lamp
glossy vapor
never painted a model before, wants to get basic stuff to make a few models and see how they like it.
sinful merlin
sprue clipper and a file/sanding board, hobby knife
glossy vapor
what grit?
thin ibex
You can get real deep into the many many accessories and "must haves" but like, you can get by with a lot less than super hobbyists will tell you
Personally I'd pick up like a basic modeling kit, a set of cheap brushes, and some kind of directional light
dense sedge
that's a really cool scheme
thin ibex
Something as cheap as this even
https://a.co/d/cHx03Ys
sinful merlin
what grit?
good question, I have no idea. any small hobby file will work and then I use a nail filing board lol
thin ibex
Another 10 bucks would net you some basic modeling brushes
And if push comes to shove you can get by without a proper table lamp
sinful merlin
Something as cheap as this even
https://a.co/d/cHx03Ys
yeee something like this is what i started off with and it's been working great
thin ibex
The thing I usual advise is like... it's really easy to over invest and get lost in the product rabbit hole, but if you're just starting its usually better to pay less, make do with a limited tool set and discover what your wants are and establish good habits
glossy vapor
is there anything to know keeping care of brushes for acrylic paint? like obvs wash them off but.
thin ibex
That's the long and short of it. Keep em wet while using, properly wash when done. Dry properly too
desert jay
Another note, Tau models also have a lot of flat mechanical surfaces where people note that trying to get a clean even coat by hand is a pain in the butt, and prefer airbrushing them
thin ibex
Don't overload the brush with paint enough that it dries into the mud
sinful merlin
don't overload them with paint so much that it goes up into the ferrule (the metal part)
sinful merlin
beat me to it lol
thin ibex
Another note, Tau models also have a lot of flat mechanical surfaces where peopl...
I do personally consider an airbrush a luxury pick rather than a basic one fwiw
desert jay
I haven't done Tau models myself, I've just heard it as a common complaint
Yeah an airbrush is not really an entry level thing
sinful merlin
What I did when starting off was I went with like a super cheap pack of synthetic brushes since I've never painted before and didn't want to worry too much about accidentally destroying them 😄
sinful merlin
but if you take care of them they'll last quite a while and will still be useful even if you move onto better brushes
thin ibex
Heck, ruined brushes have their uses lol
sinful merlin
(also cheap makeup brushes make great dry brushes)
glossy vapor
The thing I usual advise is like... it's really easy to over invest and get lost...
im thinking
-basic brush and hobbyist set
-tau strike squad
-basic paint set to be determined when i figure out the color scheme
use that to practice painting and see how i like it, then move up to crisis suits, then maybe like a coldstar or broadside, thinking in terms of what would make a cool model to display, which is part of what draws me to tau: models that arent overly large but still are large enough to make good displays.
desert jay
I guess more a warning not to expect that perfect white or tan coat on your first time
sinful merlin
yeah some colors are very tricky, you can use the sprue to kinda test them out and practice and get a feel for how they look
thin ibex
im thinking
-basic brush and hobbyist set
-tau strike squad
-basic paint set to...
Will also need some kind of glue, you can get citadel plastic glue or some plain old super glue with a fine applicator
glossy vapor
im thinking of going like, grey with navy blue accents.
sinful merlin
ah yeah, there's two types of glue, plastic glue melts and bonds the pieces together and then super glue is super glue, both have their uses
thin ibex
YouTube and online tutorials will be your friend, but also sing be afraid to experiment and mess up
Don't be afraid*
You'll find a flow that works for you and you can develop and refine it over time
glossy vapor
ive watched some hobbying videos and saw plastic and superglue, It seemed like plastic glue was only for large builds bearing a lot of force.
sinful merlin
I honestly use it for everything I can, the fact that it melts the pieces together means there's less risk of leaving a gap or joint between them
but it also means if you mess up you can't just throw the model in the freezer for a bit to get the super glue brittle and snap the part off 😄
thin ibex
A basic bit of advice also
- use thin paint coats. It'll take longer and more coats, but allows you to correct mistakes and layer
- debatable, but work from dark colors to light.
- load the brush lightly and frequently rather than heavily and rarely, a little goes a long way
past sphinx
i dont think ive ever heard of plastic glue being load bearing
sinful merlin
im thinking of going like, grey with navy blue accents.
oh my last thought is if you're doing one main color, using a spray rattlecan primer in that color will save you a ton of work
thin ibex
Oh this is both a joke and advice, don't drink the paint water
past sphinx
granted all the big models are resin so not something that usually comes up
past sphinx
Oh this is both a joke and advice, don't drink the paint water
its good with a little bourbon
thin ibex
I've come really close more than once
glossy vapor
Oh this is both a joke and advice, don't drink the paint water
tea and paint water mugs next to each other, got it.
thin ibex
I've also ruined a drink by mentally farting and dunking my brush on it
I got to sleep but I wish you luck on your target. Remember, start cheap, it makes mistakes cheaper to fix.
Many tools will serve multiple purposes early on that yes, there are specific tools out there that can do some of those things better, but don't worry about it.
Test various hand and grip positions for your brushes, you'll absolutely tire out your hand and wrist frequently, this is normal
glossy vapor
space marines are also super cool, and for the same price and number of models i get larger bodies to work on than fire warriors. tempted to go there first as a "practice squad".
thin ibex
Also little fun fact, you can play kill team with a basic fire warrior strike Team. They're not meta or anything, but it means you have a format you can play even with just one squad
You can do either, pick up models you like, really
past sphinx
Firewarriors suck to paint, as someone who started with tau
Especially with white armor
glossy vapor
what made them particularly bad?
floral herald
It can be tricky to get the lenses and cloth and lines on the armor in a good looking way
I don't think they're super hard to paint, though white in general is pretty hard
cinder wraith
i have a dumb list im gonna use
Angron - warlord
Khorne lord of skulls default profiles
Bloodthirster with greataxe of khorne
2x War dog Karnivores
desert jay
That seems like only 1500 pts, are you taking two Khorne Lords of Skulls?
ebon forge
<:vicksyAngy:1059517050290188288> saw a caiphas cain book on sale but it's like...
Honestly, can still be a good pick
Caiphas as I remember is not that linear
It would still be Cain being a heroic wuss with imposter syndrome, Jorgan with his Melta and the Inquisitor putting Cain into more dangerous situations
ebon forge
https://vxtwitter.com/Rosgakori/status/1724582346781868255
oh no
pulsar cairn
Honestly, can still be a good pick
Caiphas as I remember is not that linear
10th book actually, but good to know!
ebon forge
We need more Cain stories honestly.
As in, a pinch of humor in the grimdarkness
unreal cosmos
Fire Warriors were my first models and they didn't give me too much grief, it can be a little tricky to tell what part of their legs is fabric/armor/skin but me accidentally giving all my guys shorts wasn't like, an actual problem
Space Marines are a solid intro tho, can't hurt to get a couple if you think it'll be fun
naive abyss
Jee I wonder what faction this could be referencing lol
unreal cosmos
Very curious about what we're gonna see for just about every game
naive abyss
I suspect it's gonna be fec mostly for aos, tk for old world, and rumors as I recall point to eldar for 40k
As for the skirmish games I feel that's a big toss up lol
unreal cosmos
Heresy is apparently expecting a New Army so that could mean a whole lot of things
All the Solar Auxilia stuff for LI makes me wonder if they could be lined up for scaled-up plastic too
dense sedge
Ghouls and tomb kings are obviously going to be the stars of the show
pastel rampart
Wonder how much it'll cost (too much lmao)
naive abyss
Lol yeah
It'll be cool to see the celestine one
I hope they go more for the vibe she has in the art Ngl
pulsar cairn
cock
naive abyss
Mood
quaint compass
Poor bastard
ebon forge
You didn't sinned your wallet
You fucking EXTERMINATUS it
ebon forge
Still a great scene from DoW2
pastel rampart
I have big-brained a blunderbuss conversion
quaint compass
Da big shoota
pastel rampart
Pow pow
Gotta fill in some gaps and smooth out where the fun end meets the barrel but it's surprisingly quick.
unreal cosmos
Give em the Birmingham Special
unreal cosmos
I have big-brained a blunderbuss conversion
In response to this
naive abyss
Looks like we're gonna see DA in some capacity
junior robin
or the fallen 
pastel rampart
No you see that's actually the bottom half of a gear and we're getting Ferrus Manus returned
Now with pop-on head action!
naive abyss
Lol
naive abyss
or the fallen <:intensifeyes:454087335101857792>
I mean considering the recent lore that's sorta same difference
Also that armor is greenlol
naive abyss
Which isn't often what fallen/risen armor is colored
junior robin
oh my dreams of Daemon Prince Luther once again crushed
pastel rampart
I'm not sure he'd go the prince route.
He still seems obsessed with forgiveness and becoming a daemon prince is the exact opposite.
junior robin
oh to live in the universe where "Luther amassing a legion of Fallen" ended with "codex: fallen" instead of "threat gone because of Primarch" 🥺
anyway, guess they might show a deathwing upgrade spure for the new termies?
junior robin
Also that armor is greenlol
maybe they will be nurgle fallen 
hope the necromunda thing is pit slaves so I can get some good servitor bits
naive abyss
He still seems obsessed with forgiveness and becoming a daemon prince is the exa...
Yeah he like forsaked the gods near the end of their fight
ebon forge
Yeah, as I recall, Uther was the chaos classic "Oh god I am 0.1 second to die and I regret everything, The chaos gods were using me, there is no Daemonussy"
naive abyss
Lol
It was ultimately him realizing he was about to merc his not son I feel
It's very Arthurian in vibe imo
ebon forge
So
very fitting
junior robin
I wonder what the chances are that they would bring back more parts of the Hexagrammaton now that the Lion is back 
ebon forge
It's a cool symbol
naive abyss
It's possible
In hoping for like a risen unit
Or kill team
Maybe scale updates for some of the DA unique units too
junior robin
dark angels vs fallen kill team box (both teams are identical except for colour)
cinder wraith
manus gost
naive abyss
?
upper canopy
unreal cosmos
https://www.reddit.com/r/LeaguesofVotann/s/JPipOzGMsT
funny to see them fighting Fists, the dwarfiest of Space Marines
thin ibex
i imagine even for a kin warhost, a space marine combat detachment is no small matter
you can also see the subtext, "Defiance burned in their eyes" Because now they knew they had to fortify and hold until reinforcements arrived
im imagining a fighting imperial fist retreat actually looks like repeated earthworks bunkers built almost out of thin air, then abandoned; so from orbit you can see a daisy chain of fortified positions following their retreat path
floral herald
https://youtu.be/IB1dNj0h730?si=sqZMOV0viL3zCCQJ
It feels ironic to have a video game tie in statue miniature for warhammer haha
thin ibex
must be hard to retreat rapidly with a firestrike servo turret's movement speed
unreal cosmos
I also like getting a sense of how Kronus Hegemony fights, pulling sneaky tricks to make their aggression look justifiable
Not positive what they stand to gain from this tho
naive abyss
ferrus manus as a ghost spelled without "h"
Ah ok
thin ibex
is the kronus hegemony the one that resolves every argument with a fight
even with other kin?
naive abyss
i imagine even for a kin warhost, a space marine combat detachment is no small m...
Depends tbh. Cuz the kin also made a joke out of one of the arks of omen lol
naive abyss
even with other kin?
Yes
It's why they also sorta just baited the marines into a fight
They gotta meet their literal conquest quota lol
naive abyss
funny to see them fighting Fists, the dwarfiest of Space Marines
And against the least dorf of the space dorfs lol
thin ibex
Depends tbh. Cuz the kin also made a joke out of one of the arks of omen lol
SM deserve to get jobbed every so often; but also i don't think anyone gets to take SM lightly in the warhammer universe
they could, however, get jobbed more often
and i wouldn't mind
it IS a bit weird when normal SM job like other more elite imperial factions like custodes or gk tho
naive abyss
I mean in fairness the kin take no one lightly lol
thin ibex
Can fortifications gain xp in crusade? I presume not
ebon forge
only if you have Dorn on the field /j
upper canopy
Can fortifications gain xp in crusade? I presume not
In 10th I'm fairly certain "yes"
unreal cosmos
Do you think the iron halo doohickeys from the Age of Darkness Praetors would read as vexiliae if I put them on some random troopers?
At least I assume they're meant to be iron halos
thin ibex
Feels very fist, also feels like it might be under utilizing the Detachment feature
But also 10 hefty intercessors is a solid firebase
jaunty dawn
Niceee
pastel rampart
Clearly fighting over that pet food in the background.
unreal cosmos
yeaaah love those sorts of terrain
past sphinx
whatd you use to put it all together?
Time and elmer's glue
This talk about sixteen hours to assemble
naive abyss
ayy iybraesil fan art
hell yeah
so apparently an upcoming lov vs crons short story got listed on a site somewhere lol
thin ibex
its a bit funny to have necrons being the side fighting desperately for survival
so often its the other way with necrons
jaunty dawn
https://www.reddit.com/r/LeaguesofVotann/comments/17wro6w/the_nasapunk_army_grow...
oh fuck that's awesome
naive abyss
so often its the other way with necrons
naive abyss
oh fuck that's awesome
ye. its the first time ive seen the like painted finished product of one of those conversions
jaunty dawn
and it's going steppy
naive abyss
lol yeah
pine matrix
I'm curious what the instigator of their conflict will be. I can understand Kin waking up necrons with their mining, but a void battle?
pastel rampart
Could be an asteroid with no atmosphere, and which spills out into a ship.
thin ibex
Do yall think the carchardons got primaris reinforcements by now?
thin ibex
I feel like carch rievers on boarding actions is a vibe
naive abyss
I'm curious what the instigator of their conflict will be. I can understand Kin ...
its simple really
thin ibex
Iirc don't kin consider necron tombs high risk/ high reward endeavors
Like they like pilfering necron stuff
naive abyss
they do likely have a bunch of unique substances and minerals i imagine
past sphinx
i love how the LoV have shifted from "aye stout and strong miners and craftsmen" to actual criminals
naive abyss
i guess?
past sphinx
blowin up populated planets for money puts you up there in the crime list
naive abyss
i mean that was stated as something they might do in the dex
so idk how its really a shift lol
naive abyss
ah
tbh i feel its allot of like dawi sensibilities just run through the 40k filter lol
still find it hilarious people made so much fuss over them not being "grimdark" enough
past sphinx
people say that about anything not covered in skulls
jaunty dawn
people say that about anything
naive abyss
true
still like i was/am in the lov discord and like there was so much stink of that with it just sorta hitting a wall of people like me going "have you like not read any of this lore?"
and just us going "the votann are all slowly basically going crazy and the leagues like are willing to eat planets"
and it sorta ultimately just boiled down to allot of brainless iom fan noises lol
past sphinx
god i just want people to look at the eldar line when i hear people say this or that aint "grimdark"
my man they have murder clowns
naive abyss
exactly
that was another point we often brought up
and was usually just ignored by those folks as they just went "wer skuhls"
unreal cosmos
I can see some especially edgy kin taking trophies from settled grudges
not like Night Lords nasty but maybe like, a skull rack like the CSM terminators
naive abyss
in theory thats not too out of like the lore norms established for the lov
especially if a grudge is involved
theyd likely get them like put on a plaque or what have you
unreal cosmos
picturing a champion with a big ol nid skull strapped to their sheild
actually it's fun to picture a Kahl or someone being kind of a big game hunter about it, got a warboss's head in his study
past sphinx
i can only hope the next votann units have got that cthonian vibe
those beserkers almost got me collecting
unreal cosmos
yeah it would be cool to have different aesthetic threads within the range
tepid stratus
More progress. Still a lot of detail work to go but he's table ready
mental birch
Hahaha
Weird image
Didn't want to upload
The Thai list for the world championship
Well it's the Malaysian ticket but still hahah
mental birch
He did just get outscored by 150 jackals
brittle salmon
That's kinda the uneviable fate of a list that vehicle heavy
I do fuck with the triple Manticore tho
mental birch
I think a crisis block unguided can reliably wipe out 2 units of Jack's a turn
Hmmmm
mental birch
No it's 7
I cripple 2 units a turn not kill sadly
9 or 1p
Undercharged i kill 11 or 12
Hmmmm
pulsar cairn
is a chess club a potential tzeenchian cult?
desert jay
Most Tzeenchians prolly think chess is basic
pulsar cairn
jaunty dawn
tzeentch worshippers hang out outside chess clubs looking for people to recruit and be like chess is good but have you heard of chess 2
thin ibex
didn't expect those to be good ngl
Dorns aiui are generally considered pretty decent
pastel rampart
dense sedge
How is underworlds as a game?
past sphinx
It's problems are on the gw end more than the game end
dense sedge
Elaborate?
jaunty dawn
underworlds is fun
best models gw has
order based activations in alternating order. everyone gets 4 orders per round over three rounds
it's got the ccg problem kinda of requiring you to buy everything to have a complete collection and make the ideal decks but they're moving away from that with the more recent formats
objective hands are pretty cool. compared to kill team and warcry you're a lot more focused on what you need to do in the moment than overall in a way
a lot of variety in how teams play and team sizes
esepcially in more recent teams who all have a unique mechanic for their warband cards
also games are really quick once you're into the game. like 30 minutes. so standard matches are best of 3 games
unreal cosmos
Oh those helmets look dope
jaunty dawn
they look like the blightlord ones a little
or I meant typhus'
idk I just threw out a random nurgle word lol
naive abyss
Lol
naive abyss
Those aren't kin. I am dissapointed.
Valid lol
As someone planning out some risen I'm happy lol
tired cairn
The hood makes the head look so smol
naive abyss
I love the hooded termie heads da get Ngl
Cuz so much of it gets obscured
So it just looks weird and kinda creepy
thin ibex
I always sit in two minds about termi armor knight vibes; because it often looks as though the termie armor lacks the rom to actually use a sword with any acuity; but also its very fitting as like a heavy plate analogue and looks sick
i suppose also there are specific models, like logan grimnar with his axe out behind him, that suggest a greater rom
naive abyss
I never really think about logistics with warhammer lol
thin ibex
thats a blessing im mildly envious of, but also makes perfect sense when thinking about em
naive abyss
Just whether it looks cool/fun is my sniff test lol
thin ibex
i do also think that hte newer termies look a lot more.. mobile?
not like "scratch their back" mobile, but like "can raise their hand above shoulder height"
naive abyss
Like I totally get fussy with logistics in other things here and there
But I've come to the point of understanding warhammer really shouldn't be one of those things imo lol
thin ibex
my little detail brain gets caught up on like two major things; billboard design and swordy stuff in fiction
naive abyss
I think it helps that I've grown a fondness for retrohammer stuff
thin ibex
i feel like to an extent, learning more about swordfighting now requires me to turn that side of my brain off conciously or fictional sword stuff is a snagging point
naive abyss
And growing out of a need for things I like to be taken seriously or etc
naive abyss
i feel like to an extent, learning more about swordfighting now requires me to t...
I have that too with other stuff
I can get really fussy about armor
And weapons
Just I've sorta learned a bit of like time and place with some stuff
And recognizing when something is just trying to be silly and fun
naive abyss
I can get really fussy about armor
But hell I still fuss about sob armor sometimes
thin ibex
a funny bit that doesn't bother me but constantly occurs to me is warhammers in fiction being effectively sledgehammers or larger
though i was pleased to see a cos model with a normal warhammer relatively recently
naive abyss
That's never bothered me cuz I love how it looks lol
Like its part of the warrior priests still live rent free in my head
thin ibex
i do share how the mark of chaos priest of sigmar trailer lives rent free in my head
naive abyss
That cinematic is still my fave warhammer animation lol
thin ibex
it was one of the earliest encounters i had with warhammer fantasy
and suffice to say it lives with me
I go back and watch it occassionally
naive abyss
Same
floral herald
Oh nice new DW
I never cared for the last generation of DW terminator sculpts so this is very welcome
naive abyss
They look good too
floral herald
Yeah I quite like the look of these
naive abyss
Mm mm
brisk flint
still warren
thin ibex
i thought i saw that on harddrive first lol
still warren
I swear they've made the same joke before
unreal cosmos
Found out some Heresy narrative events make you reserve Primarchs so there aren't multiples running around and I'm charmed by the idea
thin ibex
dense sedge
My brother and I both have underworld teams we like (thricefold discord and Ephilims unknowables for me and the skeleton king faction for him)however all three of those are in starter sets alongside stuff we’re less interested in
unreal cosmos
found out that in Horus Heresy's ally matrix the Night Lords and Death Guard are battle-besties and I don't know what's more appealing as an army concept, the nastiest scariest traitors possible or a duo that somehow brings out the best in each other
jaunty dawn
you might be able to get individual models + cards on ebay
but worth getting a starter or two anyway for boards and tokens
n dice
n universal decks if you wanna play nemesis
unreal cosmos
found out that in Horus Heresy's ally matrix the Night Lords and Death Guard are...
Update! I found a combo that would almost be disgusting but I think is impossible
Death Guard have that ROW for turning large portions of the board into Dangerous Terrain, Night Lords have a ROW for fielding five proxy-warlords whose units deal with difficult and dangerous terrain better. But the latter needs to be the primary detachment and the former needs a Siege Breaker, which would take up their one ally HQ slot and thus prevent them from taking ROW.
long void
What's a good source of learning the broad trends of Age of Sigmar lore?
I'm more familiar with the Old World.
thin ibex
wish i could recommend the warhammer TV lore vids, but i don't know if those are free
long void
I suppose I could grab a year's subscription.... eventually.
unreal cosmos
There's probably a good YouTube channel or two out there but I don't know any by name
thin ibex
Unde i think knows who the artist is, but i feel its time again to share a bunch of Eddy's warhammer art here
https://eddygonzlezdvila.artstation.com/projects/LRmbav
I fuckin love this one
unreal cosmos
man they've really mutated over the years huh
naive abyss
cw for like preview spoilers for this one. but yeah taken from the leaks channel on the lov discord
ngl its a cool ass model
@dense sedge youre the only one i know to ping for this lol
glossy vapor
so in 10th edition do tau drones have any function beyond the static ability you give?
jaunty dawn
nope
just tokens to show upgrades other than the tac drone squad which is very overcosted
glossy vapor
so theres no reason to have them as models on the table beyond visual indicatiors (Which isn't even super neccasary since like, detachment enhancements have no visual signal).
glossy vapor
?
soft willow
“What you see is what you get” rules might require drones, check with whoever is running the crusade/tournament/whatever
jaunty dawn
(ymmv - your mileage may vary)
dense sedge
cw for like preview spoilers for this one. but yeah taken from the leaks channel...
He looks like he’s from Kingdom Death, I love it
naive abyss
past sphinx
cw for like preview spoilers for this one. but yeah taken from the leaks channel...
Probably one of yhe best ones that get across the "monstrous nobility" vibe
naive abyss
yeah
dense sedge
and so it begins
zinc field
And plad too
pastel rampart
naive abyss
poor trazyn
zinc field
I think the plad is what takes it from "frat bro's first job interview" to "most british outfit ever devised"
naive abyss
left in the dust
dense sedge
looking at the silhouettes on the community site, it looks like saurus might be getting something
dense sedge
yeah, that would checks
naive abyss
also ngl new orikan would look great in my homebrew cron concept
he even sorta looks like a snake/cobra
past sphinx
Yhe crons have some fineass models these days
naive abyss
lol yeah
i bet this is asmodeus
asmodai
i should say
ohhoooo
thats a good ass model
fuck yeah
past sphinx
The pariah are still my favorite models of theirs but that's mostly nostalgia
unreal cosmos
oh I quite like it
pastel rampart
Asmodai without the hood is like Vegeta with the facial hair: it feels wrong.
unreal cosmos
I just like the lil spike-studs
naive abyss
really well done asmodai though
pastel rampart
unreal cosmos
the smoke is mmmmwah
pastel rampart
Oh right it's just this piece of art.
naive abyss
lol yeah
pastel rampart
aka the most fuckin' 40k thing
naive abyss
ayyy
its the terms
these may be my fave termie models now
love the hooded heads ngl
also that watcher in the dark fucks
unreal cosmos
all the head options on these guys are great
naive abyss
def
fuck yeah they can al lhave hoods
hell yeah
peak DA termies
i really like the maces
unreal cosmos
watcher in the dark will smoke you out
naive abyss
squints at the redacted
i cant tell if thats a new thing or them just not having decided on that yet
dense sedge
here come the ghouls
dense sedge
saw this coming and am quite excited
unreal cosmos
THAT KING LOOKS DOPE AS HELL
naive abyss
tbh the newer models may have them added to my interest list
cuz they look pretty darn good
dense sedge
I have a long interest list for AoS
naive abyss
i guess its a new elite unit
cuz they have actual swords lol
also omfg we have lady ghouls
dense sedge
halberd guys seem neat, I hope they're battleline since they need those
naive abyss
i see those saggers gw you cant hide them
thse bat things faces are great
oh i fucking love this model
dense sedge
I love how they're commiting to the bit
naive abyss
ten out of ten on that fucker
and lol yeah
damn i was hoping they were gonna referesh the old minis too
dense sedge
yeah, shame
naive abyss
admittely they havent aged too badly
dense sedge
they give you new battleline though, which they needed
pastel rampart
dense sedge
'mortrch of delusion' I love the title
naive abyss
i love how horribly hunched he is
pastel rampart
Just like me fr fr
pastel rampart
DOOM TOOTS AS HE PLEASES
unreal cosmos
"finksteala" is a concept I'd want to port over to Blood Axes
dense sedge
kill team?
naive abyss
HH
dense sedge
nah, horus heresy
naive abyss
jumpers in plastic
unreal cosmos
OOOO I really like the armor plates on the chest
pastel rampart
naive abyss
lol
i do find it hilarious jump packs have slowly become more and more reasonable in size on the minis
unreal cosmos
I'm into the shape of these ones
naive abyss
my faves are still the lov ones i think
cuz theyre chunky but seem functional
and like the grip rails on it
unreal cosmos
I'm almost surprised they're all on the ground
given the precedent set by other units
but it seems better to be more reserved with a troops unit
naive abyss
?
unreal cosmos
there's a reveal stream
naive abyss
this vehicle is an ork buggy you cant trick me gw
cloud flicker
Sorry I haven’t been here… at all as of late. Fighting games have consumed me.
unreal cosmos
this vehicle is an ork buggy you cant trick me gw
I'd go for GSC but that's almost everything in Necromunda
cops vs ash nomads would be an aesthetically fun fight
naive abyss
fucking called it
cloud flicker
Ash Nomads are so awesome
naive abyss
chat just going "orks orks orks"
the nomads are cool
the ironheads are my fave though
for probably obvious reasons
cloud flicker
Ash Nomads are LITERALLY just Dune
dense sedge
it's night lords
cloud flicker
Wait what?
unreal cosmos
I did not see that coming
dense sedge
oh, is it a single kill team huh
naive abyss
ngl they look great
cloud flicker
Do y’all have a link?
dense sedge
I did *not* see that coming
I'd heard rumors
naive abyss
pastel rampart
cloud flicker
https://www.twitch.tv/warhammer
Thanks
naive abyss
dammit slim
pastel rampart
unreal cosmos
a KT focused on a specific unaligned warband is pretty surprising to me
unreal cosmos
yeah, still surprised
naive abyss
also love the heads ngl
dense sedge
I'm surprised to see that they're solo, most of the time they're a pair in a set
unreal cosmos
they look great
pastel rampart
Positively reserved on the bat helms here
unreal cosmos
30k fans will probably love this too lol
cloud flicker
These look great
unreal cosmos
that chainsword is bonkers
dense sedge
they're very cool
naive abyss
its great ngl
floral herald
http://puu.sh/JUK0t/2b62ba327c.jpg
Now that’s what I call edgy
naive abyss
lol
floral herald
I guess I’ll need to get a box
pastel rampart
naive abyss
but still funny
pastel rampart
"I wanna go home"
naive abyss
lol
unreal cosmos
I could fit these guys into my Red Corsairs...
floral herald
I’m curious how their rules will look
naive abyss
tk weirdo spotted
huh
its a very different looking settra
in terms of his mount at least
pastel rampart
naive abyss
ngl its throwing me off
cuz im not use to tk having dragons lol
cool though
and its plastic
dense sedge
plastic
naive abyss
this is where all the plastic design budget went lol
floral herald
ok the magic sand vulture is p sick
dense sedge
my brother is not going to like the heads, he love skeletons
naive abyss
thats cool yeah
im glad its plastic but i do also find it funny lol
the scarabs coming out of the ground on the base is a good touch
tbh i think id just not put the wings on
and just have it be a giant bone crocodile lol
hell yeah
mummy cat
floral herald
tfw no cat rules
pastel rampart
Love how chat is going CAT
naive abyss
like sans the wings which i wager is gonna be easy to not put on im into it
pastel rampart
SHOW US THE CAT
unreal cosmos
was kinda hoping for more Heresy since they have some big stuff explicitly stated to be in the works
still, overall a solid showing
naive abyss
i wager thatll be an adepticon thing lol
floral herald
Was it just DW knights or did they also do normal DW termies?
naive abyss
just knights i think
floral herald
ah ok
unreal cosmos
ah yeah, I've got no sense of the event schedules
floral herald
Cool models for sure
naive abyss
since you can probably slap the new termie arms on the new knights
floral herald
The new asmodai is very good
naive abyss
to make normal DW
yeah the asmodai may be my highlight lol
that or the knights
tbh the night lords were cool but it feels like a missed opportunity to pit them against a risen kill team or something
floral herald
I think it makes sense to make them a weird solo one
They're another upgrade kit for the same box
So it'd feel a little lame for that to be a signature release
I'm curious how their rules will differ from the normal legionaries
dense sedge
I do wish we got another kill team for them to face off with for whatever reason
floral herald
They definitely have a different specialist pool
dense sedge
it's usually a upgrade sprue versus a bespoke
naive abyss
i am a bit sad we didnt get trazyn
as a mirror to orikan
also while im glad asmodai got a new model
i do find it funny considering the current narrative with the DA
naive abyss
this might me the most overt them being bretts has gotten lol
tbh this may overall be my fave model they whoed off
its so gloriously horrid and lanky
dense sedge
AoS continues to have factions that make me consider joining it
naive abyss
tbh i may use the courtier as part of my homebrew old world vamps
naive abyss
lol
also i really like the paintjob
the spots of pink really pull it all together imo
on an entirely different note
i really dig this take on stormcast
i may take inspo from it for mine
dense sedge
the spots of pink really pull it all together imo
yeah, it's positely sickly looking
naive abyss
it also adds some points of warmth to help with color variety
past sphinx
New taurus 🙂
naive abyss
lol
past sphinx
enforcers are really bad 😦
past sphinx
well not really bad native access to bolters across the board is nothing to sniff at
naive abyss
cat
past sphinx
but boy thats all they got
naive abyss
ngl the tomb king having a trident feels weird to my brain
dense sedge
my tomb kings collecting brother isn't huge on the new dragon, he would've prefered a sphinx of some sort
dense sedge
yeah, thought we would've seen more as well