Pathfinder

[fast hill]

it's still worth taking imo and then retraining

improved intiative is very nice

[rustic cape]

I'd take fleet first, personally

[clever cobalt]

They get it pretty early actually

Like, 7

[fast hill]

oh shit

nvm

[warped orbit]

yeah

[fast hill]

that's real early

[clever cobalt]

I like taking Toughness

[warped orbit]

which is on par with stuff like Rogue

[clever cobalt]

Then Fleet

[fast hill]

I am an orc fighter in AV

I have toughness

and 53 HP

[rustic cape]

Fleet is my first pick unless I have to do something else to make the build work.

[fast hill]

the 2nd highest HP in the party has 44 hp

[warped orbit]

Fleet is very good

[clever cobalt]

It is

[rustic cape]

That's unfortunately common since I love Adopted Ancestry, but.

[fast hill]

fleet is really nice

[clever cobalt]

Fighter is very straightforward, but it does its job very well

[fast hill]

fighter is straightforward but

[rustic cape]

And I really think Fighter's debuffing powers are among the game's best.

[fast hill]

yes

snagging strike is so good

[warped orbit]

they have some very good Metastrikes, yeah

Intimidating Strike is very good

Slam Down

[fast hill]

we have a sniper with rogue archetype and it puts in work getting them crits

Slam Down is super good

[warped orbit]

Snagging Strike, Combat Grab

[fast hill]

Bastard Sword I love you!!!!!

[rustic cape]

Yeah, they get a ton of stuff that normally keys on skills, with an automatic legendary progression since it's part of an attack.

[fast hill]

slam down notably is not an auto prone

[rustic cape]

The auto prone metastrike goes to monks!

Wolf Stance

Its second feat, Wolf Drag, is nasty.

Stuff like that is really good for proning targets you otherwise pretty much can't.

[fast hill]

wowzers

[rustic cape]

Same with Intimidating Strike

[warped orbit]

not until you get Improved Knockdown at least

ie Crashing Slam

[rustic cape]

Barbarians do get Intimidating Strike too, but IMO the big thing is that fighter gets almost all of this stuff on a single chassis.

[fast hill]

crashing slam is very neat

[warped orbit]

Tripping is also great on Fighter because you can Reactive Strike when they get back up

[fast hill]

Im running a bastard sword build where the idea is to trip with one hand and then swap to 2 hands

[rustic cape]

Enemies do not get kip up :D

[warped orbit]

I played a Meteor Hammer Fighter in a campaign, and it was a great time

[rustic cape]

Or, very rarely.

[fast hill]

also snagging strike etc etc

[warped orbit]

Snagging Strike into Combat Grab is also a classic for bastard sword

[fast hill]

yes

I plan on grabbing dual handed assault as well

[rustic cape]

I love the gill hook https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=156

Not just for fighter, it's a great lockdown tool.

[warped orbit]

Gill Hook is also great yeah

as a good weapon with the grapple tag

[fast hill]

grapple REACH

holy moly

[warped orbit]

yep

it's one of the big reach weapon options

if you'd rather have Grapple rather than Trip

[rustic cape]

Gill Hook and Guisarme are top picks.

[warped orbit]

ye

[rustic cape]

For those two purposes.

[warped orbit]

I'm a big meteor hammer fan personally, for flail crit spec

even after the nerf

RIP old flail and hammer crits 😔

[turbid dagger]

The only weird thing with gill hook is that it largely lacks synergy with other grapple options
As they usually assume a free hand is involved

You will mostly be throwing out raw Grapples with no funny riders

Or attacks that key off it after

[rustic cape]

Of course, one can argue that for fighters, the best pick is ultimately something with lethal.

Er, deadly

Once they get their debuffing metastrikes.

[warped orbit]

ehh, I'd most of the time still rather have something with good base dice than with deadly or fatal

though if you like gambling, the fauchard is also a good polearm option

[rustic cape]

Nodachi :D

[warped orbit]

I kinda wish there was another reach sword other than the nodachi

[turbid dagger]

The unfortunate thing about deadly and fatal is that it usually costs you big time in normal damage
And the math of deadly procs vs just having a d10 or something is Dubious
With Fatal it's a bit more more reasonable to go all in on the crit fishing

[warped orbit]

make it like a montante with d10 reach sweep or something?

[rustic cape]

... oh snap check this thing out https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=537

Tragically Advanced.

[fast hill]

greatpick feinting critfishing

mmmmmmm

[rustic cape]

I should just make a Standard Jotunborn Fighter.

[warped orbit]

Look at the Scythe

Though yeah I also had that reaction to the Maul Spade at first

[rustic cape]

Oh yeah you're right, Scythe is wild.

I guess the Maul Spade has a slightly better damage type and a better crit specialization?

Club is just polearm but better, which makes sense.

[sour venture]

so here's a question

are there any effects that last until you Escape that don't actually hamper you a whole lot

maybe cutting your movement a bit or penalizing attacks or whatnot

[rustic cape]

Not off the top of my head.

[warped orbit]

Not strictly better, since club pushes them directly away from you

[rustic cape]

Hm, true.

[sour venture]

lessee

[warped orbit]

While polearm let's you move them anywhere, but only within reach IIRC

[sour venture]

so escape implies that it's only

You attempt to escape from being grabbed, immobilized, or restrained.

so it'd need to be a bespoke effect

[rustic cape]

Grabbed and immobilized aren't that bad

Well, depending.

They're not that bad for a melee.

[warped orbit]

Grabbed isn't too bad

[rustic cape]

For a caster, I like to use a panic button teleport

[sour venture]

This substantial rune makes you difficult to hold back. Whenever you are affected by an effect that lasts until you Escape (for instance, from the Grapple action or a tanglefoot bag), you become quickened. You can use the extra action each round only to Step or Escape.

i'm pondering if it's possible to turn this on forever

by like, idk

wearing a straightjacket

XD

[rustic cape]

Flicker, amusingly, is a hard counter to a lot of escape things

Flicker has downsides, of course, but it's a really strong spell in a lot of situations.

[turbid dagger]

The Battlecry weapons alas were not very thrilling yeah
The Maul-Spade is strictly a sidegrade to the Scythe and the Bladesweeper is
It's just strange

[rustic cape]

It's very funny to me how a fighter expecting to get Mighty Bulwark just only has three stats they fundamentally care about.

[sour venture]

accidentally posted this in the tabletop room instead of continuing my thought here

[clever cobalt]

How are the Commander and Guardian btw?

Now that Battlecry has been out for a few months

[sour venture]

guardian is So Cool and has So Much Weird Tech

[rustic cape]

... fuck it, imma create a dual-class guardian/fighter for shits and giggles.

And because dual-class is my stupid obsession I guess.

[clever cobalt]

Dual class can be really fun

But its also broken as hell

[sour venture]

im so annoyed that handcuffs, manacles, and fetters require thievery to escape

not the escape action

"martial artist who's handcuffed themselves for training, and gets the implacable rune up all the time" would be so cool

[rustic cape]

Definitely, but I would love to play a game where the GM uses that as an excuse to go hard.

[sour venture]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4393 ok this hypothetical stepmaster would want to have dwarf heritage

to remove the speed penalty too

god what a funny piece of janky tech

though the moneky works well on any race

"this is my pet robot monkey he's named Metronome"

[rustic cape]

Hm, how obligatory is a shield for a guardian?

[sour venture]

you will want a shield if you're using a lot of their best tools

but it's not strictly necessary

[warped orbit]

Not strictly necessary, but somewhat heavily encouraged

Same as Champion

There is some stuff for 2h Guardian like that one feat for punishing enemies that ignore your taunt

[rustic cape]

Mainly looking at this thing https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7777

I did play alongside a guardian who did have a shield but also used a lot of interprosing whatsit.

[sour venture]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7840

god

pf2e needs to add something like hybrid classes from 4e

to go with the multiclassing

not dual-classing, but something that's meant to be played alongside normal classes

[rustic cape]

The winner here is either scythe or war lance

Wait

aw, wait, this is a stance and everstand is also a stance

[rapid wagon]

Late to this but why is guardian fighter broken?

[warped orbit]

it's not broken necessarily

but in dual class, basically any martial class is improved by tacking Fighter onto it

double martial dual class in general is quite strong, because most of their features stack and synergize together often

[rustic cape]

Hm, does Crashing Slam let you ignore size restrictions on Trip?

It seems like it would.

[rustic cape]

I'm not sure this feat is good but it is very funny https://2e.aonprd.com/(X(1)S(hjyroef4f1v2om55nuk0st55))/Feats.aspx?ID=7862

[warped orbit]

it is a fairly hard to escape Immobilize for enemies

since your armor item bonus at this level is gonna be like +7 or so?

[rustic cape]

I can't recall, was there something that let you attack while prone without penalty?

I know nimble crawl makes you not off-guard

[sacred bluff]

Paizo somehow got worse about this in 2e it's unreal. Like, at least it's somewhat justified this time because the math is so tight but god it's insufferable

[fast hill]

feinting is neat but it being diplomacy makes it suck for anyone who isn't a rogue or swashbuckler

imo it's better than a MAP attack especially as a fighter

a charisma fighter could be neat actually

demoralise, feint, attack with fatal weapon

also yeah a LOT of feats are kinda mid but then some are craaaazy good

so why would you take the more circumstantial ones when you can take the really good ones that are always useful

[tribal steeple]

Mmm. Dropping 160 gold to get that Wand of Tailwind (2nd rank). 8 hour buffs my beloved.

[fast hill]

anyone know any backgrounds that'd work for a historian? Scholar is cool but it doesn't give society which is a pita

not really tbh a pita but

would be nice to get assurance society

[silver geyser]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Backgrounds.aspx?ID=202

[wraith snow]

I'm really enjoying my noble Dandy Witch

Very fun character to RP

[desert vale]

What. Suddenly wondering how to roleplay a character i want to play that. Is not really the kind of person i normally am.

Basically am shy irl. Dont know how i would roleplay an outgoing character

[tribal steeple]

It may help to evaluate how you are comfortable roleplaying. I'm not remotely comfortable doing voices, speaking "in-character first-person", but I'm much more comfortable explaining my intent and then describing the way the character is/would go about doing that intent.

It's related to the classic "how do you play a high INT character if you yourself frankly just aren't that smart" problem. I'm not a social butterfly IRL, so my method of playing a social butterfly character would be on the level of negotiating out the actions and intent I want to pursue rather than relying on me being genuinely quick-witted and fast-talking at the GM.

[woeful pecan]

Also, for both in and out of character, the best way to gain confidence is genuinely just to fake it

[rustic cape]

Few things will expand your comfort zone faster than playing a weird moron, imo.

[rustic cape]

@sour venture https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=6852 okay this looks rad for leap optimization

[sour venture]

ye

[wooden orbit]

https://youtu.be/psmQGWNZhks

[vocal ember]

This has made me think of a kineticist build:

• Element: Fire
• Elemental Familiar (for Innate Surge)
• Volcanic Escape
• Lava Leap (either via taking another element or via Elemental Overlap)
• Steam Knight (either via taking another element or via Elemental Overlap)

So you cast enlarge and enter Steam Knight on your first turn, then Lava Leap and Volcanic Escape around the battlefield and knock over everyone.

[sour venture]

steam knight is cool but i'll do you one better

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7495

this one can proc on each relevant creature multiple times per turn 👀

[rustic cape]

Honestly, given the prone can use spellcasting DC

I'd be tempted to use this with Maneuvering Spell.

But with class DC, kineticist is very sexy.

[vocal ember]

Kaiju's Footfalls only applies to the "first time each turn you High Jump, Leap, or Long Jump" so you can't trigger it multiple times per turn (though I guess you can trigger it multiple times per round, which is what Volcanic Escape is for)

[warped orbit]

you could theoretically archetype into Monk to get Waterfowl on the jumping Kinet

[rustic cape]

I do wish Lava Leap wasn't Overflow -_-

[sour venture]

oh that's fair

hmm, yeah

[vocal ember]

oh darn they're both overflow yeah :/

[sour venture]

you can just use steam knight then

[rustic cape]

Do we think this works with 4th rank enlarges from other sources? The wording is ambiguous.

[sour venture]

The first time each turn you High Jump, Leap, or Long Jump while affected by this spell, creatures of your size or smaller adjacent to where you land must attempt a Reflex save against your class DC or spell DC, whichever is higher.

[vocal ember]

I think it would specifically refer to the innate spell.

[sour venture]

you don';t even need to be large for this

so like

you can still prone little guys even without it lol

oh wait

"while affected"

gdi

yeah i think it's just the innate spell

[rustic cape]

Kaiju's Footfalls is one of the few ways to get a 4th rank enlarge on a martial before 17th level, which is why I remembered it existed.

[vocal ember]

It gives you the 4th-rank enlarge at 17th level

[wooden orbit]

https://youtu.be/psmQGWNZhks

[wooden orbit]

But they just a little guy! You gonna knock a little guy down?

[light gyro]

:

[wooden orbit]

He just a little melty

It hot

Very hot outside

I do appreciate that one of the two APs they say is the best for leading into this one in the player's guide is Myth-Caller. Despite it thematically and geographically not fitting.

It's one of the APs I most want to play.

[clever cobalt]

that's the Iblydos mythic one right

[surreal basin]

No that’s myth speakers

I believe recent- oh yeah

I thought you meant revenge of the runelords lmao

[surreal basin]

I think it’s because it’s the other mythic game lmao

[rustic cape]

blink blink god you're right I'm just having a moment

[wooden orbit]

Yup, that. Though they said Seven Dooms for Sandpoint is the easier transition

I’ve seen someone opt to run Triumph of the Tusks as a mythic campaign before

[sour venture]

anyone know if there's a way to spend focus points other than focus spells? trying to figure out if there's anything i can do with the third focus point my character will consistently have on hand

or if it's basically just "you need 10 minutes less to get back to 2 (your build's magic number here)"

[woeful pecan]

Amps technically?

[sour venture]

hm, ok

i will look into that

oh i see

i guess if i would multiclass psychic i may as well just find a focus spell to multiclass for

[rustic cape]

Better to have and not need

[sour venture]

yeah

[eager mountain]

he looked outside

[wraith snow]

Class specific but Cackle can be accessed very easily even via dedication

[small meteor]

The name of Steam Knight has given me a cracking idea:
Heavy power armour inventor with a polearm rifle.

Actually it'd have to be a plate armour weapon inventor.

[wraith snow]

Steam Knight is really sick, if I ever do a Kineticist I intend to fully build for it

[light gyro]

HSSSSSSS

[echo briar]

Am I missing something or is this just insane? https://2e.aonprd.com/Tactics.aspx?ID=17

two actions to give your team 2 strides and two map free strikes.

and it can make your opponents frightened, just because.

Strike hard is one action for one map free attack, end of list.

I know thats a basic, but the basics are still very good, and most of them are still very useful even with advanced tactics. This just makes strike hard obsolete

[warped orbit]

It's probably one of the best tactics Commander has, yeah

And already available at 7

It used to be one tier higher in the playtest IIRC

[stuck bane]

It does use up the squadmates’ reactions for the round to take those strikes

[warped orbit]

yes, but

• using a reaction for a Stride and a MAP free Strike is pretty great
• Drilled Reactions

[stuck bane]

Oh, so does strike hard, which this is specifically being compared to

[warped orbit]

basically everything from Commander uses reactions

[tribal steeple]

Commander tactics are SUPER GOOD, but do rely on people spending their reaction. Cool thing is that the Commander's Drilled Reactions feature can "grant one ally of your choice benefiting from that tactic an extra reaction" so it doesn't interfere with those martials who have reactions they WILL be using (Reactive Strike).

[rustic cape]

Holy fuck

[tribal steeple]

Demoralizing Charge is stupid good though. For two actions:

• move two allies into position against an enemy of choice
• Strike as a reaction (damage, any other effects a Strike may have)
• two chances of save vs frightened (penalized for each successful hit/crit Strike)

[warped orbit]

it's the strongest offensive tactic Commander has

and also basically strictly better than Strike Hard

[tribal steeple]

The only way it's not strictly better is if you look at opportunity cost of taking other Expert Tactics. I'm not familiar enough with available Tactics to say if any Expert Tactics are more worthwhile than this ridiculous thing though.

Using Demoralizing Charge instead of Strike Hard lets you pick up a more utility tactic instead anyway

I REALLY like the versatility of Mobility Tactics

[wary yoke]

So, from what I'm reading about grab and grappling, if I wanted to drag someone that was grappled, I'd need to make reposition checks?

Before grappling the target?

[turbid dagger]

Shove or reposition is what you want for manhandling people yes

[tribal steeple]

Unlike lancer, grapple isn't a move-them-around thing and is more a way to apply Off-Guard/ action restriction. Shove and Reposition are entirely separate and you can do those without needing to grapple first

[sour venture]

also unlike pf1e, or most D&Ds

grapple is specifically just "root them in place"

[light gyro]

There's feats for making grappling scarier, including one of my favourites the Clawdancer archetype. My rogue can currently grapple, get a reaction strike if they try to escape, or two strikes if they haven't escaped by my next turn

[wary yoke]

I'm looking at this from a monster perspective

[wary yoke]

Yeah the PF1E is my relevant reference here

[surreal basin]

Holy shit undead eidolon is cool

These abilities are REALLY GOOD

[rustic cape]

I’m forgetting, is there a way to attack without penalty while prone?

[light gyro]

nethys is dying rn but if there were any mma nerds on the team they'd have put one under wrestler or martial artist i'd've thought

[rustic cape]

I don’t think so

Mostly I’m thinking about Guardian’s Belly Flop

[vocal ember]

I found a couple more feats that let you do that
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3558
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5443

[rapid wagon]

question, how does a summoner learn their spells? Obviously they get their connection via their eidolon link; but its not like their spirit actually knows magic; so is the spell knowledge like... imbued? Or do they have to like figure some stuff out?

[warped orbit]

their spells are also derived from their connection to the eidolon

Magic also flows through this conduit from your eidolon into you, so your eidolon determines the type of spells you cast and the spell list you choose from

Your link to your eidolon grants you limited magic connected to your eidolon's nature

but I'd say it's probably a mix of intuitive and needing to practice a little

somewhat similar to Sorcerers I guess

[rapid wagon]

ok thats kinda what i was thinking

[fast hill]

what are some fun encounter ideas for a lvl 1 party

[light gyro]

https://2e.aonprd.com/MonsterFamilies.aspx?ID=424&Redirected=1

you are never 100% safe from an unscheduled gremlin event

[fast hill]

oooooo

gremlin could be fun

I wanna play with fey creatures soon

running an Anbennar game

[woeful pecan]

So we've got a skeleton in the party. Good sources of void healing? We don't have a Champion or Cleric

[vocal ember]

soothe was changed to work on undead I recall

so if you don't have any divine casters that's an option.

[eager mountain]

https://bsky.app/profile/kitsunewarlock.bsky.social/post/3lzts5bcobs2p

Dustin Knight (@kitsunewarlock.bsky.social)

-# ↩ Starfinder Facts, 2nd Edition (@starfinderfacts2e.bsky.social)

Bluesky · Sep 27, 2025, 8:12 PM

[vocal ember]

You can also heal with Medicine though that requires the Stitch Flesh skill feat, which might unfortunately mean you have to wait a level for that to come online.

It should also be noted that the healing potion alternative is the oil of unlife.

[woeful pecan]

We do have an occult Witch alongside our divine Sorcerer, and I believe she did pick up that spell

Didn't realize it worked on undead, but seems thematic for that spell list

[vocal ember]

Divine Evolution could be good for the sorcerer to take if they're a healer

well, even if they aren't a healer, but it would compliment the role if they were that is

[woeful pecan]

They are

[woeful pecan]

Hey chat what conscious minds pair well with Wandering Reverie

[echo briar]

I'm really annoyed that paizo removed domain spells from exemplar because they were going to make an archetype for anyone to get domain spells, and then just didn't make that archetype.

Like, maybe its coming, but it doesn't fit into any announced books, so if its planed its going to be at least a year.

[rustic cape]

I guess technically there’s Mortal Herald?

But that’s level 12 and very specific

[desert vale]

If someone is frightened 1 can you inflict frightened 1 again to make ot frightened 2?

[solar storm]

No

Though they can have Frightened 1 from 2 sources which can matter if the durations are different

[warped orbit]

Conditions don't stack, unless something specifically says it does

[rustic cape]

There are some niche abilities which allow this to happen, but usually not.

This is the one that springs to mind: https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7530

[woeful pecan]

Friend who I've been dragging into the Pathfinder fixation hole (and who will probably be running a game) was so taken with my character concept they drew this today

[warped orbit]

[limber comet]

First session of AV was last night

Chat

Say hello to Emmett

My halfing witch

[warped orbit]

Looking good

[rustic cape]

Excrucian!

[woeful pecan]

Wazzat? /genq

[desert vale]

Excrucians are one of the major antagonists from the RPG Nobilis. Being void gods who want to unmake the world for various reasons. They have eyes of night and falling stars.

[woeful pecan]

Ahh

I was scouring AoN and couldn't find anything so that makes sense lol

[desert vale]

Also. Some of them are protagonists in the spin off game Glitch

[woeful pecan]

This particular character is a Cosmos Oracle. A shepherd, who gained their mystery during the solstice, as a result of staring up at the stars that night until they fell asleep. When they awoke, the herd was gone, and the night sky was forever reflected in their eyes

[desert vale]

Cool

[woeful pecan]

I'm still trying to decide if I wanna stick with regular human, or if there's a versatile heritage that could make sense

[rapid wagon]

I know I've asked this before but as far as building a cinema style samurai instead of a realistic one, what do yall think fits best? I was considering swashbuckler for all it's flourishes

But Ranger was one that often came up

Monk also came up for unarmored proficiency

And there's only one stance for swords right? But stances feel cinematic

[turbid dagger]

I would def go waterfowl stance monk and just flavor your talwar or w/e as a katana yeah

[rapid wagon]

Would it be too feat tax-y to try and get katana proficiency? Or does it just not work with waterfowl?

[woeful pecan]

I might even just suggest Fighter

[echo briar]

What gunslinger way do you think would work best for a historical samurai? Or would a fighter with a gun be a better fit.

[rapid wagon]

Is playing a light armor fighter a valid play path? I've often felt like it's almost obligated to take heavy armor

Or even unarmored fighter?

[woeful pecan]

Heavy armor does have the O-yoroi it looks like

Which seems pretty iconically cinematic samurai

Katanas aren't finesse anyway, so I would think Strength would be the way to go

Also worth keeping in mind that 1e's Samurai was basically a reflavored Cavalier, so do with that what you will

[rapid wagon]

O yoroi is kind of more realistic, a warrior in armor. In Yojimbo the mc just wore his traditional clothing. In Seven Samurai, they wore minimal armor only in the finale. I'm thinking about that kind of thing

[woeful pecan]

So a little more Ronin-esque? It'd be tricky

At least assuming you want to use an actual katana

Light or no armor and a strength weapon just doesn't play well with the system, unless there's an option I'm unaware of

[frozen flame]

Flurry Ranger's a good fit if you want to dual-wield a katana and wakizashi.
Otherwise you could reflavor an Aldori dueling sword or elven curved blade as a katana, if you really want a finesse build.

And a Thief Rogue can use both of them to great effect while being lightly-armored/unarmored.

[woeful pecan]

Regarding my Oracle for a second, I'm considering more stuff and have a few questions, both lore and mechanical:

• Is Star domain really that bad? I love it for aesthetic reasons, but Zenith Star just kinda looks like hit garbage

• What are some deities that would both match thematically, while also giving good Divine Access spells?

• What kind of starting gear should your average Oracle have on hand?

[turbid dagger]

It Just Not Works yeah
Waterfowl only allows a select few swords

[sour venture]

fooor reference though

unlike many stances, waterfowl stance does not specify restricting your attacks

which means it doesn't

you do need to off-hand a weapon on its small list to trigger the jump damage

but you can, if you want, just carry a katana and use it for your strikes

[paper inlet]

Maybe if your GM allows you to combo Unconventional Weaponry and Monastic Weapons you could run a wakizashi monk

Oooor

Automaton Ranger/fighter with reinforced chassis

[craggy thunder]

Since our group had to oust the GM for our Thursday game for being a creep, I am taking it upon myself to run our Thursday Pathfinder game

And I'm running dual class

[clever cobalt]

Oof, sorry to hear

The Creep GM part at least

[warped orbit]

Apparently the SF2 GM core mentions a variant rule making hero points roll minimum a 10

Interesting that that actually made it into a book

[fast hill]

THERE HE IS

HE

[warped orbit]

The man himself

[warped orbit]

Good luck not getting beaked

[fast hill]

we are severely overleveled from doing other things

lvl 3

[light gyro]

if i was running it and the party was overlevelled at this point, you know what they'd get? 2 mr beak

[fast hill]

nah we're getting less xp so we should eventually level out

[warped orbit]

Ah, good

You're much less likely to get screwed then

When we played AV, we carried over from the Beginner Box so we started at level 2

[fast hill]

yeah we did beginners box and some troubles in otari

[woeful pecan]

I find myself in an unusual predicament

I have a GM, but somehow not enough players lmao

[vocal ember]

Zenith Star the more I think about it the better of a spell it is actually? There are not a lot of effects that allow you to locate somebody, let alone to the degree Zenith Star does (see the Locate spell for comparison; Zenith Star by contrast also tells you the distance and it lasts quite a while to boot). Under the right circumstances it could be quite useful I think.

[rustic cape]

Just flash steps to be in two places once.

[stuck bane]

Mr beak has also been toned down iirc. Originally had a crazy strong spell for level 1 pcs to encounter, I think?

[surreal basin]

Toned down when? Did AV get a rerelease?

[warped orbit]

It had Vampiric Touch

Which has the Death trait

So it wasn't unlikely to just kill a PC outright with that

[woeful pecan]

How hard would it be for a first-time Pathfinder GM (but experienced in other systems) to run a pre-remaster AP? Any particular suggestions?

[clever cobalt]

Depends on the AP

which one are you thinking of running?

[true delta]

From my own experience (may or may not apply to you):

• Don't try to run the game off the page. Run the game based on your notes.
• Make your own ting based on the material. As written, many plot points and encounters are a little empty. Try your best to interweave things with character stuff and don't be afraid to cut elements which don't appeal to you.

[solar storm]

APs are usually pretty easy to run

[solar storm]

I agree with this

[wraith snow]

Yeah, at least personally speaking I'd say that all of my favourite moments from APs have been the GM bringing in PC-specific hooks that may not be part of the actual game

[rustic cape]

There are a few changes that can make things weird. Premaster grab was much less potent, so enemies used it a lot more. Make sure to adjust either by reducing prevalence or using premaster grab with those enemies.

Restrained is a bad time if it shows up constantly, to be tbh.

In general, ask around about any AP, my experience is that people who have run it always have commentary on specific pain points.

Subsystems can be hit or miss.

Don’t play Agents of Edgewatch.

Don’t play Gatewalkers (but less than AoE).

(Agents: imagine a particularly vicious parody of police media, full ACAB. Then add the wrinkle that the authors don’t know they’re writing a parody, and think the bastard cops in question are sympathetic.)

(Gatewalkers; kind of just a mess, wants to be 3 to 4 different 11-20 APs but is 1-10.)

[warped orbit]

I think the Grab and Knockdown changes were overall just kinda bad

Having it be automatic could be annoying sometimes, but making it a check is unintuitively so much worse

So if I ever run a game, I'll probably just ignore that and use premaster Grab

[rustic cape]

The big issue is really just that the condition inflicts restrained now

[clever cobalt]

I wish AoE was better, cause I like Absalom

But I suppose given the fact youre playing as cops, it already has some issues

[woeful pecan]

Haven't zeroed in on any in particular just yet, but at the very least will probably go with one that starts at level 1

[rustic cape]

I think it might be possible to rework it as explicitly bastard cops, played primarily for bathos.

[clever cobalt]

Fair

[rustic cape]

Like, a Judge Dredd kind of vibe

But that’s a lot of work

[clever cobalt]

But that raises the issue of Evil APs and whatnot

Which granted

Can work, as Blood Lords shows

[rustic cape]

I would play AoE revised more for evil-comedy

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[rustic cape]

Just make the department and Absalom in general hilariously, blatantly corrupt

[clever cobalt]

Eh, I think that kinda clashes somewhat with the tone of the setting, and Absalom in particular

[woeful pecan]

Yeah isn't Absalom supposed to be a Big Deal

[clever cobalt]

Its the center of the Inner Sea, literally and metaphorically

Its arguably one of the most important locations in the entire setting

And one of the things going on in Absalom is the political shadow war between the factions in Absalom

[rapid wagon]

What's Edgewatch's job?

[clever cobalt]

Theyre the newly established District Police of the new district in Absalom

[rapid wagon]

Wait and you're supposed to play them or are you some of them and are working with a Bastard cop boss/ police force?

[clever cobalt]

Notably when the Radiant Feztival is happening, which is basically the World's Fair but Golarion

[clever cobalt]

You play the cops

[rapid wagon]

I don't think anything stops you from playing it straight and playing out a fantastical scenario where you are good, right? Or does it make you fall into being bastard cop tropes?

[clever cobalt]

The former

Though obviously it gets weird given PF's nature being heavy combat focused

Plus IIRC the AP was coming out just as the George Floyd protests were happening

[rustic cape]

In theory the former, but there are a lot of specific elements that push towards the latter

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[rapid wagon]

Ah that really makes it a bit sour

[rustic cape]

For instance, your PCs are supposed to self-fund by ticketing

Which sounds like parody

[clever cobalt]

I would love another Absalom AP personally

[clever cobalt]

Not just ticketing, but taking stuff off of people you arrest

[rapid wagon]

Like in a fantasy setting I don't mind playing out law as I wish it were and not a reality shows it to be, to be clear

[echo briar]

Also, its mechanically so rough. They designed it before the system was finalized, and it shows

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[rustic cape]

Oh excuse me, civil forfeiture

[clever cobalt]

Yeah that

[rustic cape]

Somehow even worse

[rapid wagon]

Official™ theft instead of normal theft

[clever cobalt]

Regardless I get what they were going for, but making the Cops into Adventurers makes it weird because of how Adventurers act

If that makes sense

[rapid wagon]

Yeah no I totally get you

[warped orbit]

they could have just made your gear be supplied to you, instead of making you have to do weird looting

[rustic cape]

I think the reverse would be fun, do a Friendly Thieves Guild AP

[clever cobalt]

I agree

[rustic cape]

Right, that’s what I mean by feeling like parody

[clever cobalt]

Honestly building up a Thieves Guild could also be a fun subsystem

[rapid wagon]

I was just thinking that like... "we otherwise have lawful classes in our games, like Paladins, who don't have to be acab scumbags, why can't space fantasy cops."

[clever cobalt]

At least to me

[warped orbit]

Edgewatch also suffers a bit from being a 1-20 AP

[clever cobalt]

Especially given Absalom is already full of Political and Shadow War intrigue

[warped orbit]

because it just kinda gets beyond its scope at the end

[clever cobalt]

So a thieves guild AP fits in perfectly

[warped orbit]

IIRC for most of the last book you primarily fight demons?

[rustic cape]

If Edgewatch had been written by someone who hates cops, it would be exactly the same.

[clever cobalt]

Chaos beings, forget what theyre called

[rustic cape]

Except more self-aware.

[clever cobalt]

From the Maelstrom

The antagonist of Edgewatch is a Corrupt Politician who Worships Norgorber

And attempts to take over the city

[rustic cape]

That seems very odd for Norgorber.

[clever cobalt]

Kinda sorta

Norgorber has several different "faces"

Each with their own way of worship, be it Serial Killing or Being a Lawyer (literally)

[rapid wagon]

what im taking away from this is that there was at least one if not many ways to play agends of edgewatch straight as 'good cops' on Absolom, but it missed the mark fairly badly

[clever cobalt]

In Absalom the Church of Norgorber is somewhat tolerated because they also make the best lawyers in the city

[warped orbit]

yes, pretty much

[clever cobalt]

And oddly enough the Church threw their political support behind the Progressive Political Faction in Absalom, albeit for pragmatic reasons

[wraith snow]

Some of the best alchemists, too

[rustic cape]

If anything I'd expect Norgorber to be one of those evil gods who does okay in civil society by being the patron of stuff that is Horrible But Normal

[clever cobalt]

Yeah also that

[clever cobalt]

Yeah he is

I believe the Lawyers worship the secret-keeping "face" of him

Which is to say, they learn secrets very well but also dont share them

Which a Lawyer is great at

[wraith snow]

Honestly I do kind of appreciate that a lot of the evil gods can at least in theory be read positively if you REALLY squint

[rustic cape]

Serial killers and assassins are the kinds of things that nobody likes but which are kinda normal in an amoral, objective sense, and given one of Norgorber's anathema is "get caught" that seems very fitting.

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

My favorite Absalom tidbit is that one of the biggest power players in the city is a Leng Ghoul who worships the Outer Gods, but actually likes Absalom and will work towards keeping Absalom safe and stable

[wraith snow]

Even Lamashtu as of 2e has some positive connotations

[rustic cape]

Yeah, for a city of adventure stuff like that is very fun

[clever cobalt]

(Mother Jackal, for reference)

[rustic cape]

Bad, bad people who are still important to the shape of society

[clever cobalt]

She leads a cult but its explicitly stated to be more like an Old Man's Club than a regular cult

[wraith snow]

They don't really outweigh The Rest Of It, but I've been in a party with someone who tried their best to make the least objectionable Lamashtu worshipper possible

[rustic cape]

Evil gods in general can go really interesting places

[clever cobalt]

For reference

[rustic cape]

A friend of mine who's a Planescape expert was explaining this at one point, and he used the example of Erythnul, D&D god of slaughter

[wraith snow]

They were a Champion of Shaelyn who was killed by cultists and reanimated as a monster and essentially became a body positivity zealot

[rustic cape]

And his point is that Erythnul is horrible but also deeply wise in a weird sense.

[clever cobalt]

Also IIRC there is at least one open Lamashtu Worshipper in Absalom, who despite not being liked by basically anyone else she lives because Absalom has a lot of religious freedom

And so long as she isnt (openly, at least) doing evil stuff theres nothing they can do against her

[clever cobalt]

How so?

[rustic cape]

I'm trying to track down the specific post so I don't mutilate his words

But the short version is that slaughter is a part of the fabric of the world, and in embodying slaughter, Erythnul is part of the fabric of the world in a very real if deeply uncomfortable sense.

[woeful pecan]

Okay so that knocks out a couple to avoid. What about ones to recommend?

[warped orbit]

Season of Ghosts is one I've seen pretty unanimous praise for

[rustic cape]

Abomination Vaults is great if you just want a straight megadungeon crawl

It's pretty much Diablo

[warped orbit]

Fists of the Ruby Phoenix is fun if you want something higher level

Seven Dooms of Sandpoint I've also seen recommended for a megadungeon now

[rustic cape]

Advice going into AV: play Trouble In Otari first and get to level 2 before starting the AP

Some of those early fights are rough at level 1.

I'm playing Season of Ghosts right now and it is great.

[warped orbit]

doing the beginner box first and starting AV at level 2 does help a lot, yeah

[rustic cape]

Quest for the Frozen Flame is solid if your PCs want to wander around and adopt everything in sight.

Strength of Thousands is probably the best 1-20.

One thing re: Season of Ghosts is it expects the PCs to be locals to its main town

[woeful pecan]

Which is in Tian Xia, right?

[rustic cape]

So if your players want to be wandering adventurers that may not fit well.

[warped orbit]

it is, yes

[rustic cape]

Yeah, specifically in the Asian Horror Cinema country ruled by giant spiders, but 100 years ago so the giant spiders haven't taken over yet.

[warped orbit]

Season of Ghosts is very specific to its locale, for several reasons

it's also very focused on the town, and is very much helped by the PCs having strong ties to it

[rustic cape]

SoG is a great one if players want to invest heavily in enemy-type specific options, too

[warped orbit]

so them being local is helpful in that regard

[rustic cape]

Lots of undead

Decent collection of fiends

Good place to bring a champion with the relevant bullshit.

[warped orbit]

I've been thinking of running a SoG game myself

mostly need to get the Foundry module and read through

[woeful pecan]

Running through the others rq:

• Both I and the GM prefer more of a balance between combat and RP, so AV may not be the best fit, nor Sandpoint
• We're both fairly new so Ruby Phoenix is out, wanna pick a level 1 AP

I'd need to look at others a little more

[rustic cape]

SoG has one oddity my GM has had to fix so far: (early book 2 spoilers I think) ||there's eventually a faceoff between the leaders of the north and south parts of the town, and the AP does not anticipate that you might reconcile them instead of picking a side||

||We reconciled them by persuading them that the opposite part of the town would never really follow either, and our GM was like, "so funny thing!" She ran with it but it is an interesting oversight.||

[woeful pecan]

Considering both I and the GM are white, and very much taking note of the locations of Strength of Thousands and Season of Ghosts, are there any special considerations we should make? Or am I overthinking this?

[rustic cape]

Seek pronunciation guidance in advance, and be respectful, generally.

[novel merlin]

I will say running high level pathfinder isn't much harder than low level

[woeful pecan]

Looks like Season of Ghosts will probably be the pick!

[echo briar]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7818 Does this feat need both prerequisites or just one?

[warped orbit]

hmmm
I think as written, it's technically both

but that feels unintended to me, and I feel like it should be just either one

especially since Fortunate Blow as a similar followup feat for both does only require one or the other

[wraith snow]

I disagree about that being both as written, the use of a semi-colon over a comma feels intentional but I can't find an example to back that up with

[warped orbit]

Prerequisites are always separated by semicolons if there are multiple

[wraith snow]

yeah u rite

found a few other examples

it is strange though

[warped orbit]

for example the Magus dedication

Prerequisites Strength 14, or Dexterity 14; Intelligence 14

[sour venture]

i assume it's meant to be something you take by having both

and then can use with either

[warped orbit]

but yeah this feels unintended to me

[warped orbit]

my main counterpoint is that there is a similar feat that enhances both of those prior feats, Fortunate Blow
which does only require one of them, instead of both, and is also a stronger effect
so while RAW it does require both, I'm chalking this up to someone forgetting how Prereqs are formatted

[echo briar]

After noticing that no one has made a commander guide despite the class being out for over a month, I decided to make my own. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z6wHCss-V6PCQpxenwzBsyYxXGumM64XkxnLEUMQATg/edit?usp=sharing

I regret this decision, but its too late for that now.

If you have any feedback, please comment in the doc.

[woeful pecan]

Desperately looking for a reason to not be Just a Human with this character but nothing else is clicking

Cosmos Oracle in Season of Ghosts, so ideally something setting-appropriate, but nothing feels quite right

[finite sequoia]

Star themed Nephilim? Like a cosmic angel?

[woeful pecan]

Is that a thing? I didn't see anything especially cosmic glancing through it

[finite sequoia]

Mostly reflavouring the existing stuff sadly. It's the closest thing unless you wanna dip into Starfinder

[woeful pecan]

Rip

I adore cosmic shit, sad there isn't all that much. Loved 5e's astral elves

[sour venture]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Ancestries.aspx?ID=43 well, there's these guys

[woeful pecan]

I did see those! Will almost certainly play one in another game, but not this one

[sour venture]

Conrasus are shards of cosmic force given consciousness who construct intricate exoskeletons to interface with the mortal world. Both an integral part of the underlying processes of the universe and strangely set apart, conrasus look to aeons to understand their existence.

conrasus my beloved

[woeful pecan]

Extremely gender

[tribal steeple]

I understand so little about Conrasu, Aeons, or other cosmic character ideas that I wouldn't even know where to begin in terms of how to make a character out of it

[sour venture]

androids are space robots, uhhh

[woeful pecan]

Aeons in the WotR video game were also super cool

[sour venture]

i like conrasus because i would identify with a box with googly eyes

making a roomba-coded (she/her) oc,

ok i say making as if i haven't done that many times

[woeful pecan]

I think Untyped Nephilim may be the way I go

Yaoguai look cool though

[rustic cape]

Duskwalker is a very good thematic fit, it's what I'm playing.

[surreal basin]

Samsaran?

[rustic cape]

My PC was found by Elizeth in the Lady Of Souls graveyard and is a kineticist with champion dedication

Thankfully our GM houserules 1-action blasts to be usable as strikes for various ability purposes, so Justice cause is functional

Otherwise I'd probably have to play a champion of Pharasma's daughter rather than Pharasma herself to get Redemption, or else go Liberator

(Liberator is boring to me)

[true delta]

Blogging about Frozen Flame:

Our Gourd Leshy Forager Rogue runs around with a sickle and accepted my suggestion to take Druid Dedication. She also learnt Tame Animal and used it to tame the giant tapirs and a hadrosaur. When, due to Druid Dedication, I set out to furnish her with a cute animal companion, the player informed me she really, really doesn't want any sort of animal companion. Instead, she's choosing Storm Order (her character was hit by lightning off screen).

It's a little frustrating, lol. I specifically suggested Druid Dedication because I didn't quite know what this character's deal was and hence struggled to provide appealing plot hooks. Now, she makes even less sense. How is a living pumpkin connected to storms? Perhaps, I'll shoehorn the bird thing of the Guardians of the Wild in there somehow.

Storms and pumpkins are connected to autumn, perhaps? But it's spring in the ficiton and the campaign is over by the end of the fictional year.

[wraith snow]

I don't think tying plants to storms is a very big reach

Storms don't have to just be lightning, they also cover the rain

[rustic cape]

What, pumpkins can't have special interests? :P

[true delta]

lol

True, rain is good, I suppose.

[rustic cape]

I just sort of assume that adventurers pick up all kinds of bs along the way

[desert vale]

How are archetype feats balanced against class feats?

[rustic cape]

Innconsistently

[sour venture]

short answer: the math is t_dragged off_

long answer: archetype feats tend to be in a vacuum stronger than class the class feats you could get from multiclassing (i.e. class feats of half level) but weaker than equivalent feats at the same level (this is also why you'll see archetypes that poach a class feat and up its level by 2, such as wrestler)

corollary to this is that "tend to be" is not "are". If there's a class feat that completes your build in some moment of time, it is The Most Important Feat In Your Build regardless of if you got it at twice its normal level. That's just how complex systems work.

there are some archetype feats that are better than a class feat of a given level, either due to small imbalances or just the opportunity cost

[warped orbit]

the general rule is that if an archetype gets a class feat, it gets it two levels/one "tier" later

[sour venture]

yeah

[warped orbit]

but even that is already kind of tilted in favor of archetypes vs multiclass archetypes tbh

[sour venture]

as a general rule of thumb

if a class feat is level X

then an archetype will get that feat at level X+2 or X×2

and an archetype's bespoke feats will tend to be stronger than either of these options, except when poaching a class feat is A Major Part Of Your Build

[rustic cape]

So, let's start with an initial point: dedication feats are wildly variable in power. Some, especially multiclass ones, are extremely anemic. Others are quite strong.

Moving on from that, I would say that in general, well-chosen archetype feats tend to trade the ability to do things outside of one's class for raw power output.

This happens along two major axes:

• multiclass archetypes, in letting one grab class feats from another class at half level, trade hypothetical access to a fairly broad set of tricks for getting a lot of those tricks really late. Increasingly late, even — you can get a level 4 class feat at 8 and that's a four-level difference, but when you grab a level 8 class feat at 16 it had better be fuckin' worth it because that's 8 levels behind.

[desert vale]

nodnod i see

[rustic cape]

• quasi-multiclass archetypes, like Blessed One or Beastmaster, which let you grab a very narrow set of class feats at what is generally just a two-level delay, are much less of a loss but also give you way less additional stuff outside of your class norms

[sour venture]

in practice, most builds benefit heavily from multiclassing into either a class or an archetype at some point

but it's not necessarily ideal all the time

there is a third axis, though

• some base classes just have relatively mediocre Class Feats (or get the majority of their power from their non-feat features, especially the casters)

and in that situation a lot of the time multiclassing just becomes all upsides

[tribal steeple]

non-feat features, aka "ures"

[sour venture]

magus, wizard, animist...

probably more but those are the ones i've primarily engaged with

pre-remaster alchemist

there's a good amount of classes with just. anemic-feeling core lists. maybe you want a couple of the feats but like

most of the time on classes like this I go "yeah you know what I do think I'm gonna just multiclass out"

animist does have the wandering feats at least

[rustic cape]

Animist has some amazing class feats

[sour venture]

it does!

emphasis on "some" though

I could see someone playing animist and never multiclassing and having fun

[rustic cape]

I would say the third axis is:

• archetype that hyperspecializes, which does something not allowed by an existing class extremely well

[sour venture]

but personally i look at the majority of their list and go "I don't particularly care about this and it's not super interesting"

especially the stuff that burns out one of your apparitions for the rest of the day

"daily power that removes one of my encounter powers and focus points for the rest of the day" is like

hey paizo why

[rustic cape]

Yeah I don’t think those are worth a damn

But there’s definitely at least 10 excellent feats spread across the class IMO

[sour venture]

in general you can probably get by with 1-2 wandering feats on animist, maybe a utility feat off their list, and spend the rest of your feats multiclassing and archetyping and have a much more versatile and unique character

the fact that most of their excellent feats are wandering feats uh

helps there

but also makes it a little frustrating to build

i have a particular bone to pick with Spirit Familiar

which is

"you have a familiar, but if it gets got by a fireball or something, lose an encounter power and focus point for the day"

"and 1/2 or 1/3 of your spontaneous spells"

don't get me wrong

animist is my favorite pf2e class

and it has some cool stuff

I just think it's got some unfortunate jank too, and a weird amount of feats that just feel... pointless, i guess

Extremely Campaign Specific

[rustic cape]

Fun fact: my high-level animist in SoThousands routinely rolled ahead of everyone else, including bosses, on initiative, to the tune of 45-55 on average IIRC

But yes I’m with you, it’s the best half of a class in the game

Two-thirds, maybe

[sour venture]

it's so cool

the apparitions are cool, the spell list is cool

half-spontaneous-off-specific-lists and half-prepared is like

best of both worlds for me

the encounter powers are cool as hell, sustain shenanigans are underused

[rustic cape]

It’s the Hunchback of Notre Dame of Pathfinder 2E classes

[sour venture]

and also liturgist is The Best Thing Ever

but it's like

"i could grab a dedication at level 2 or i could get a feat to make my spell not look like I was casting it, for flavor"

"I make my allies' knowledge checks about ghosts better"

you can take a feat at level 2 to send invisible ghosts

and a feat at 8 to get +2 on knowledge checks against ghosts

and it's like

animist what are you doing

[rustic cape]

My hot take is that I would give it the Primal list if I were making my perfect PF2e

Level 2 has embodiment of the balance, though

[wraith snow]

I've been really impressed with the animist we have in a homebrew game I'm in but I am worried that the party is collectively going to fall off of a cliff at some point

We have 0 real frontliners and 3 fake frontliners so if our actual collective durability gets tested at any point we're very fucked

[rustic cape]

Tragically, you do need to dip out of animist to get Reach Spell for sudden partywide moment of renewal

[wraith snow]

Okay I might be very stupid lmao

[sour venture]

i think embodiment of the balance is fine but at the same time it's like

eh

i can prepare heal in my slots

it's a good feat don't get me wrong

an incredibly strong "for when I have nothing else" feat

but i would never first-pick it

[wraith snow]

I've had both of these on my Kingmaker Sorcerer for the past several sessions and I don't think that combo has actually occurred to me

[sour venture]

i'd rather math out how much healing i expect us to need and overshoot a bit in my slots

[rustic cape]

Embodiment of the Balance is very much a This Is Stronger Than You Think feat

[wraith snow]

I've been doing it melee range like a rube

[sour venture]

oh for sure

it's a good feat

[rustic cape]

No like

[sour venture]

but i think it's boring, and I like vancian casting.

[wraith snow]

Though tbf that character is entirely meant to actually touch you with touch range spells

[sour venture]

your 2 apparition spells per rank per day being able to be spontaneous heal and harm is incredibly strong

but I would rather prepare healing on purpose in a predictive manner and get the dopamine rush of Successful Vancian Casting on the player side

xd

[rustic cape]

Something I learned in high level PF2e is that a big part of a caster’s job is having contingencies for when things go sideways

[wraith snow]

Blood Component Substitution + a mount makes for some very funny applications of touch range spells in combat

[sour venture]

and embodiment of the balance is a reasonable contingency, but so is a staff of healing, or filling your slots with healing spells, or the like

I value my slots less than I value my level 2 feats, is the big thing

there are builds where i'd def take it

unfortunately I couldn't fit it in on the animist i built

[rustic cape]

This is why my casters pack things like hypercognition and laughing fit

[wraith snow]

I did get to pull out Shock to the System for the first time recently, I think that was the first party member death we've had in the entire run up to this point and we're currently level 17

[sour venture]

reveler in lost glee my beloved

terrible vessel spell but

incredible spell list

[rustic cape]

Doesn’t Reveler give you the regenerating mirror image?

Or is that a different one

[sour venture]

please go reread the spell

😭

[clever cobalt]

Exemplar is also pretty fun

Haven't touched either of the new classes though

Commander and Guardian

[sour venture]

You are surrounded by up to 3 mirrors that reflect twisted and distorted images of you, making it hard to tell where you actually are within your space and potentially causing those who attack you to hit one of the mirrors instead. You start with 1 mirror and gain an additional mirror each time you Sustain this spell, up to a maximum of 3 mirrors. Any attack that would hit you has a random chance of hitting one of your mirrors instead of you. With one mirror, the chances are 1 in 2 (1–3 on 1d6). With two mirrors, there is a 1 in 3 chance of hitting you (1–2 on 1d6). With three mirrors, there is a 1 in 4 chance of hitting you (1 on 1d4).

Once an image is hit, it is destroyed. If an attack roll fails to hit your AC but doesn't critically fail, it destroys a mirror. If the attacker was within 5 feet, they must succeed at a basic Will save or take 1d4 mental damage as they believe themselves cut by a shower of glass shards from the breaking mirror. A damaging effect that affects all targets within your space (such as caustic blast) destroys all of the mirrors.

it's 1 mirror image per round

and if you get hit by ANY aoe, even splash damage

all the mirrors break

no roll

even if you dodge the effect

[rustic cape]

I’m aware of both these things

[sour venture]

it's so fuckin bad

🫠

[rustic cape]

It’s still extremely good in a lot of situations

[sour venture]

the opportunity cost is massive

[wraith snow]

The party in the homebrew game I'm in is Witch, Animist, Kineticist, and someone using the playtest Necromancer.

Besides the Kineticist our entire frontline is basically "well you technically function in melee, I guess"

And the Kineticist is also Tiny so even then they're not exactly uhhh

Built for close combat

[rustic cape]

Would I cast it in every fight? No. Are there many fights where I would cast it? Yes.

[sour venture]

in practice you're gonna be spending 2 actions for 1 mirror image (one plus one from Circle of Spirits) and it gives you a 50/50 shot, sure, and in theory if you can stack them up it's like, wow, I spent 3 rounds sustaining this and now I have a 1/4 chance of being missed, that IS solid

but is it as solid as the four or five actions spent on this across three turns?

but it also breaks without rolling if incidental AoE exists (extremely common; god forbid an ally has splash damage too)

idk

it just feels like a trap option

especially because, uh

if you're not planning to cast it as your default, you need to circle of spirits it up, presumably after casting an actually good vessel spell

and losing out on a third Incredibly Strong encounter power for a Kinda Okay one is.... questionable, imo

ig i'm at like

"if i have it because I chose reveler for its powerful spell list, maybe i'll find a chance to use it"

but it's not something I'd ever pick the apparition for vessel spell access like most of the other vessel spells

it's weird

[rustic cape]

My general lead is almost always going to be either Earth’s Bile or Garden of Healing

90% of the time the other one of those two will follow.

[wraith snow]

Turning off an encounter entirely with Laughing Fit does feel incredible I can't lie

And yeah our Animist uses Earth's Bile literally every combat

It's real good

[sour venture]

it's very funny because earth's bile is crazy good but i have felt no desire to build with it at all

[rustic cape]

Because I have Maneuvering Spell and free sustain bullshit I basically always have a free action to cast more vessel spells or circle of the spirits

[sour venture]

i'm too busy being obsessed with River Carving Mountains and Gift of the Anemos

[rustic cape]

All without turning off my primary spells

[wraith snow]

Oh speaking of ig, does anyone have suggestions for 4th rank and below sustained spells on the Occult list?

[rustic cape]

Remember that you only get free sustains for apparition and vessel spells

[sour venture]

2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=2521 btw this spell is hilarious

idk if it's GOOD but

....

link why

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=2521

there

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=2138 so here's a question

is there anything actually good with this

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7143
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7131
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7141
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7142
https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=2146

ok it's apparently just these

that's... so weird

trickster's mirror is better than store time in most cases, ig? it has that going for it

admittedly now i want to do a Embodiment of Battle + Store Time build going all-in on reactive strike

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7676

hm

@rustic cape all that said about the heal/harm stuff and i'm going back and looking at my spells prepared where i added Speak With Plants and Speak With Stones for flavor value and going "I wonder if I should just make these healing"

xd

[rustic cape]

Low level slots are for utility, buffs, and debuffs which don’t need upcasting

[sour venture]

I should probably prepare an actual 6th instead of Talk With Rocks

[surreal basin]

Is this a google sheet?

[sour venture]

google doc

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V6qRbkPdGCpEwj_Z0QJPtEXU0eU5ndCvuVClsGHxmJg/edit?tab=t.0

ughghgh i've convinced myself to go replace these

[surreal basin]

I actually had a really funny version of speak with stones

Which is to say

I had familiars tongue or whatever that lets you speak to creatures of the same type

I was a baba yaga witch

With a stone artifice thing as my familiar

[sour venture]

ok admittedly

the level 6 spells aren't super interesting to me compared to Talk To Rock

divine list is very

specifically themed

[rustic cape]

Yeah

Look at upcast options

There’s a sorcerer guide out there that talks about good options for all four lists including upcast

Oh 6th rank heroism

Very strong pick

Some solid damage spells IIRC

Spirit blast is solid single-target damage on a fortitude save

Consider getting see the unseen, very strong spell that gives no shits about counteract rank

[sour venture]

oooh

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1223

i think im gonna prep this for my party member's wolf

... wait

does this stack or overlap with Mature Companion

i don't think it does stack

bluh

alright there

that's better

god i love Vital Beacon

[surreal basin]

It’s basically budget cleric font

And given that font is the strongest class feature in the game imo

[sour venture]

yeah

and since i've got waaaay more movement than anyone needs i'll be able to easily get into position to feed healing to people

[surreal basin]

Animist right?

[sour venture]

yeah

i'm planning on moving like 60-70 feet per round most rounds once i'm spun up after a turn

it's gonna be great

[novel merlin]

It's even crazier with the one feat that lets you use font slots for all the condition cures

[rustic cape]

Makes those spells a lot more useable, for one thing.

[novel merlin]

High level pathfinder is pretty normal until you encounter random enemy with crippling debuff/curse

Then you really suffer if you don't have sound body/clear mind stuff

[rustic cape]

The trick is to kill your teammate and then shock to the system them

[novel merlin]

Does that clear debuffs?

[sour venture]

generally yes

If a creature starts out as a valid target but ceases to be one during a spell's duration, the spell typically ends, but the GM might decide otherwise in certain situations.

After you die, you can’t act or regain actions, can’t be affected by spells that target creatures (unless they specifically target dead creatures), and for all other purposes, you’re an object. When you die, you’re reduced to 0 Hit Points if you had a different amount, and you can’t be brought above 0 Hit Points as long as you remain dead. Some magic can bring creatures back to life, such as the resurrect ritual or the raise dead spell, though these abilities aren’t without their risks or effects, and rare artifacts and powers can even interfere with them.

if you're affected by spells (and presumably other debuffs) that only affect creatures, they end when you die

but if they can tag both creatures and objects

they stick around

[novel merlin]

Funky

[sour venture]

half of the team coordination tables in the ruby phoenix player's guide feel very nonfunctional outside of like, a pathfinder society pickup game

but i'm in love with the quirks table

for helping people get into the mood of "we're doing Mortal Kombat x Wuxia Flicks: the module"

[wary yoke]

#2 is calling me out for loving Path of War for 1E

[surreal basin]

FIFTH COLUMN OF THE SPINE OF THE WORLD: BURN THE BONES
does an extra 1d6 fire damage and trips you

[woeful pecan]

Prepping for different party comps so I'm getting a Witch ready. Debating if I should go Starless Shadow or Spinner of Threads

[wary yoke]

Hey, that sounds like a solid first level maneuver

[rustic cape]

Path of War has an overturning issue related to its view that maneuvers need to do more damage than full attacks

[wary yoke]

I mean, I think my party in my last campaign that featured it used l.ike one actual strike in the final encounter

Otherwise it was all boosts, counters, and relying on stances

[silver geyser]

Yeah, that's where the real juice is

[wary yoke]

Though my favorite discipline is Fool's Errand, which sidesteps the issue by having a lot of control and alternate full attacks

[rustic cape]

So like

I know the person who wrote Fool’s Errand

She hangs out here on pnet

[silver geyser]

Is it weird that I like Book of the Nine Swords way more than Path of War?

[rustic cape]

And this is something she’s talked about as an issue in PoW’s design team’s assumptions

[rustic cape]

No, it’s much better done imo

[silver geyser]

Like, I can't even put my finger on why

[rustic cape]

Bo9S feels more mechanically dynamic to me

Also the vibes are immaculate

[silver geyser]

Yeah

And like, it gives some ready made hooks that give more content than you'd first think

[wary yoke]

Only had a chance to use PoW, so I don't have much to compare it to

[rustic cape]

Oddly, because maneuvers in Bo9S have more rough edges

Fool’s Errand is everyone’s favorite discipline and contains a lot of design lessons in both its successes and failures.

The writer thinks it’s overtuned (like most of PoW) but also got a ton of comments from people who don’t like initiators normally but specifically liked Fool’s Errand because it “feels like playing a martial.”

[wary yoke]

I also don't really like a big chunk of the original PoW disciplines, probably because my players opened a toolbox and went for either the jankiest ones or straight damage increases

[warped orbit]

I'd say if you make only one attack instead of several, it should do more damage generally
though with PF and 3.5 that's somewhat less true because of decreasing bonus in full attacks

[rustic cape]

Which speaks to a lot about the way arbitrary mechanical conventions become signifiers to audiences

[wary yoke]

I consistently had to tell my Medic player to actually use his strikes

[rustic cape]

More damage than all of the attacks together?

[wary yoke]

And not just heal or recover every fucking turn

[warped orbit]

more damage than the expected damage of the multiple attacks, yes
because you have higher variance

[wary yoke]

I threw a Parasite with Lead Hyena at him once, that was fun

[rustic cape]

The trouble AIUI is twofold: first, that full attacks in PF1e are already really good single target damage and do what they’re supposed to do

But second, that full attacks then just stop getting used altogether

They vanish from the arsenal because why would you use them

Whereas in Bo9S, strikes were powerful for single attacks that preserved mobility and often had weird riders

But full attacks were still relevant

[warped orbit]

the mobility thing is definitely the bigger factor there, yes

which I also said there are other factors that complicate things
I'm mostly commenting in a more general sense

[rustic cape]

Initiators actually brought more combat utility than they did raw power, it was a genuinely good dynamic

[silver geyser]

Some of the biggest strikes I remember using for Bo9S stuff was the strikes that let you bypass DR and Hardness.

[rustic cape]

Oh yeah, those Stone Dragon hits were rad

[silver geyser]

That stuff was great utility, including outside of combat.

[rustic cape]

Stone Dragon is kinda funny because it’s the discipline everyone gets, and it’s not exactly what people tend to think of for wuxia fighting magic stuff

But it’s so good and has a ton of compelling stuff.

[rustic cape]

There were so many stories about using it to overcome out-of-combat challenges

[silver geyser]

Yep!

[rustic cape]

My hot take is that Crusader is the best-designed of the three classes

[silver geyser]

"Bypass security by going in through the wall"

[rustic cape]

If only for its discipline selection

[silver geyser]

I am a big fan of Warblade still.

[rustic cape]

Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and White Raven are all great

Iron Heart is too!

But I also like the random recharge mechanic

[wary yoke]

I came close to playing a warblade once, my old group wanted to play an actual 3.5 game in Forgotten Realms and once I realized that I could play a Warblade, I immediately jumped on it, but we never started

Not sure why

I think the GM decided to 1) switch to PF1E and 2) decided it was an all-orc game

[rustic cape]

My hierarchy is crusader >= warblade > swordsage

[silver geyser]

Poor Swordsage.

[wary yoke]

It was the first time I played a ranger, and it cemented my loathing for the class

[silver geyser]

Wonderful flavor.

[rustic cape]

Swordsage is good! It’s just much more awkward.

It lacks the flow of crusader and warblade

[wary yoke]

What was the warblade's recovery mechanic?

[rustic cape]

It did a normal attack (a full attack?) and spent a swift action

And got everything back

So a turn off from initiating, but still doing stuff

Crusader was like

A small deck builder game

Where you couldn’t always predict what you could do but you could always do something

[wary yoke]

Yeah, I remember a lot of fanfare when DSP used that mechanic for the Mystic

[rustic cape]

People were very down on it at first but I think it was great in retrospect

There was also a build type called “idiot crusader”

Where through shenanigans your granted maneuvers were => your known maneuvers

And you could just do everything always.

Kinda abusing the mechanic but funny as a concept

(A lot of the time there was also some warblade in there for variety)

[warped orbit]

random accessibility seems like it'd annoy me, so this is probably what I'd also do

[wary yoke]

I found cards for PoW maneuvers on the GitP forums, used those and Magic cards to keep track of everything

[rustic cape]

Or just warblade, which was great

[wary yoke]

Never got to play one of the random recovery initiators, though

Actually, I think the only PoW class I have actually played as player is the warlord

Through several different characters

As a test character, as a one-off dhampir using Unquiet Grave in an abandoned campaign, then as a high-level replacement using Fools Errand, and last as a Veiled Lord

I loved that character, one of the most complex characters but ridiculously fun

"Hey, I'm using every single DSP subsystem right now"
"I hate that"

[sacred bluff]

Have you seen Jane's ranger guide? I hated ranger too but after reading that I'm playing a ranger if I ever get into a 3.5 game again

[sour venture]

path of war as a system needs to be understood from the perspectives it was built under

especially when comparing it to the much better-written ToB

and to do that we have to dig into the topic of spite

trying to figure out how best to word it

[sour venture]

1. tome of battle was written by people who wanted to expand martial tools and keep full attacks as a "when you want Big Damage you can set up by getting into melee or finding free movement, and then unload a full attack, and your maneuvers are for being more flexible and mobile" thing
2. path of war was written by people who think "someone is doing a full attack" is at best something for weird rules perverts and at worst a moment of "we as devs have failed the audience, they shouldn't be doing full attacks"

[desert vale]

Any good pathfinder 2e standalone adventures?

[craggy thunder]

siiiiiigh

I need to figure out what I'm gonna run in pathfinder

shit

XD

[desert vale]

I am vaguely tempted to try and run a Pathfinder 2e game

[tribal steeple]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KMUJul33VHT-aYvuJPNNPMOaadwvmToYdesSPz7LEMo/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.9lqx78nvinns

[rustic cape]

Do you mean oneshots?

There's some amusing ones.

There's one where a bunch of leshies crash a garden party

[craggy thunder]

I think I'm gonna have the party be adventuring in the Sarkoris Scar, based in a shantytown that's a reference to my favorite jrpg

the shantytown is named Patcher's Place, and if you get the reference you also get a cookie

[wary yoke]

Pathfinder ranger, specifically the... archetype that gets a full bird animal companion, hence the name

Just had no fun at all

[sour venture]

pathfinder 1e ranger Kinda Sucks

it's like, mechanically functional, but it's very much "core 3.5 ranger+" instead of the massively expansive, versatile class 3.5 ranger became

https://hexdrake.support/ranger_handbook/

anyway if you wanna read about 3.5 ranger here's an essay on it

[tribal steeple]

pf1e ranger does kinda suck, that's why you roll into the hybrid classes that do it way better like Slayer or Hunter

[sour venture]

pf1e ranger's biggest positive points are (a) it gets an equivalent to Solitary Hunting for free and (b) there's a spell that lets you change your favored enemy to a target creature

which is like

fine

but core ranger isn't a super compelling class

the reason I like 3.5 ranger so much is because it got so much variety and depth outside core that you can build pretty mcuh any playstyle in it and excel, while also being a skillmonkey with half-casting and if you want, trapfinding

[silver geyser]

The things I like most about PF1e Ranger are all in archetypes of Ranger.

[sturdy lagoon]

There's a reason why I like that Spheres of Might still asks that you take the vital strike line to at least kind of keep up on damage compared to full attacks, and mainly just gives you fun tricks

I also just generally prefer the martial focus system over pseudo-spellslots

You still need to get close enough for a martial character to consider it over full attack + step unless you do something stupid, but the goal is to give you options over full attacking, and get some stuff that usually needs magic or does weird shit, and I didn't quite get the same positive feeling from PoW

[woeful pecan]

If a given party only has one caster (a Witch), what tradition would be most valuable?

[tribal steeple]

I would guess Primal or Divine since that'll give you access to Heal and an assortment of either blasting spells or buff/debuff spells (occasionally both)

Occult does come with Soothe for healing if you're willing to keep preparing slots for it if you need the healing.

Consider if any other characters are doing more mundane healing like Medicine checks (consistent, actually very good) or are alchemists (mass manufacture healing elixirs)

Healing focus spells are also really good for alleviating the need for healing resources.

Ultimately it kinda depends on what the rest of the party composition consists of and needs

[woeful pecan]

I know we have a Scoundrel Rogue

Another player is probably either gonna be a Champion or Cleric, but I don't know any more than that

For further information, we'll be playing season of ghosts. I'm considering the devourer of decay, the spinner of threads, and the starless shadow. I'm trying to weigh the pros and cons of each, and figure out what should be the most effective and fun

[echo briar]

If you have a cleric, then ideally you should be arcane.

If you don’t, I would suggest occult, as it has a ton of spells that get stronger the more martials you have

[warped orbit]

probably Arcane or Occult IMO

[woeful pecan]

I've definitely been feeling occult

The current plan is a human dhampir, and local medicine woman in Willowshore. She at least thinks her vampiric parent is her patron

[echo briar]

For reasons I will not spoil, spinners of threads, faiths flame keeper, or paradox of opposites if you squint all have very good patron opportunities

[woeful pecan]

How well does Spinner play actually? Their hex doesn't look super spammy, and status bonuses seem pretty common

[wraith snow]

Honestly I think Flurry is it's own reason to build a Ranger going off of just core

[echo briar]

I mean, its pretty good considering it’s to everything.

[sour venture]

oh whoops

sorry i meant

pf1e

not pf2e

[wraith snow]

Ah., yeah, fair

[sour venture]

muscle memory

[wraith snow]

I was gonna say, I LOVE commiting MAP evasion

[sour venture]

no yeah pf2e ranger is cool

[woeful pecan]

Love MAP evasion as a phrase, definitely using it when possible

[wraith snow]

I've never played in AV before, and my GM is running a heavily modified version of it soon to account for 2 players having seen it before

and my plan is to play a Goblin Flurry Ranger with a shortbow and jaw attack

I also played a dual-wielding Rogue specced into Ranger dedication via FA in Stolen Fates and it was also a lot of fun for similar reasons

[eager mountain]

MR BEEEEEAAAKK

[woeful pecan]

Damn Witch has a surprising number of good and interesting class feats

[finite sequoia]

Yeah thats a big part of why people say it's essentially a better Wizard

[woeful pecan]

See but now I have to actually decide

Because this is a human dhampir, so I could take a lineage, or Natural Ambition for like. Cackle or Cauldron. And that's just level 1.

I think what I'll do from there is Basic Lesson (Dreams?), Enhanced Familiar, Greater Lesson

8 I could do Spirit Familiar, or Incredible Familiar. 10 Major Lesson, though Quicken is tempting

[woeful pecan]

I'm also trying to squeeze in an archetype somewhere maybe

Ritualist and Herbalist look like good picks for this game in particular

[rustic cape]

Cackle is extremely good, fwiw: free sustain is the good shit.

[woeful pecan]

Worth noting this is for a more combat-light campaign

[rustic cape]

Fair!

[novel merlin]

Most class feats are combat oriented anyways so rarely do you have to pick between a good feat and some wonky utility thing

[wraith snow]

Witch does have some usable out of combat options to be fair

permanent if slow flight speed as a class feat is very useful, plus the cauldron feat chain can be surprisingly versatile for RP moments

[sour venture]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=6420

im a big fan of talisman dabbler as an archetype

talismans are super action-efficient for combat and there are some very good noncombat ones

[rustic cape]

Really the best class feature for out-of-combat stuff is spellcasting

Tons of good tricks

[light gyro]

-# 🛈 Spellcaster Tip: You can make a situation different by introducing <500 Toads>

[woeful pecan]

Woe, toad be upon ye

[warped orbit]

Talisman Dabbler is neat
wish it got a small boost

it feels kinda behind a lot of the other consumable making archetypes

due to only getting half level

[woeful pecan]

There is Multitalented, so I'll probably pick that up since there's just so much archetype stuff that seems really cool

[rustic cape]

Incredible

[warped orbit]

you only get 2/4/6 talismans, they could at least be PL-2 if not full level

[woeful pecan]

Oof

[rustic cape]

Mentioned this to my GM, who mentioned this in turn https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=2309

[woeful pecan]

Season of Ghosts player guide does recommend Ritualist above anything else

But idk if it's worth it, or if I should just pursue rituals outside the archetype

[light gyro]

im only just now learning fulus are different from talismans unless they're fulu talismans

[light gyro]

the investigator in my party always waffles on when describing what actions he's taking so i basically get this every session

[sour venture]

is season of ghosts a game with ghosts (genuine question)

https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=171 because exorcist is cool af

[warped orbit]

it has ghosts

but not that many AFAIK

[light gyro]

surprised they dont mention that archetype on the player's guide

(shout out to players guides btw holy SHIT any big-time ttrpg publisher should be making these)

[woeful pecan]

That's the list, btw

Also, how's this for spell selection?

[sour venture]

exorcist dedication isn't bad on its own since negative damage isn't like SUPER uncommon

but it really takes off if you're ever fighting incorporeal undead

getting your hands on blind fight at 10 is also just quite good when stealthy or invisible shit comes up

[light gyro]

i understand the 'not recommended' row but the idea of an ||evil robot gunslinger who doesn't speak the local language and is also a pirate|| sounds like a sick addition to any campaign

[light gyro]

season of ghosts covers levels ||1 to 13, so it comes online pretty late|| but still pretty good

[sour venture]

oh yeah fair

[woeful pecan]

So is Cauldron worth taking?