Pathfinder

[wraith snow]

So it wasn't just a longhammer

[fast hill]

ahhh that'd do it

[wraith snow]

Longhammer was for fights where I mostly just wanted more damage, for fights where I was playing a more defensive role I used the hobgob 1h spear and a tower shield

[fast hill]

doesnt it have to be same number of hands?

breaching pike is very fun though

[wraith snow]

Ah, you're right, I remember the gimmick now

[fast hill]

considerded using it with lunge on a shield fighter

[wraith snow]

The longhammer actually was a longhammer, my weapon ally was diety's favored weapon

(which I never used without shifting on bc lol lmao light pick)

[wary yoke]

So far for my alternating Saturday game, we have a gnome imperial sorceress (hi Alaizia), an oread dwarf tower shield only guardian, a dwarf two-handed fighter with a greatpick named Urist, a halfling hungerseed knife thrower, a minotaur ??? and a ??? ??? (Haven't decided or hasn't made character yet)

Last we left off it could be a kitsune bard or an automaton cleric

[wraith snow]

I really, really wish deadly simplicity was a bit more broad in the weapons it supported

[wary yoke]

Or a centaur something

[wraith snow]

Because man are there some stinkers out there who just barely miss out

[fast hill]

yeah

[fast hill]

little people campaign

and then minotaur

[woeful pecan]

Is Arcanist still a thing? Or something similar?

[wraith snow]

still not sure what I'd like to play for an upcoming game I'm playing in, I had a character concept I was really excited for and one of the other players ended up doing very close to the same thing

ig technically there's nothing stopping them from working in the same party but 2 martials primarily built around the same archtype feels bad

Even if mechanically there's nothing wrong with it

I was looking at some of the level 1 archetypes that give access to watered down divine stuff, or battle harbinger on cleric proper

[rustic cape]

PF2e is better about it than most d20 elfgames, but levels 1 and 2 are absolutely rusty dagger shanktown and there’s only so much to do about that other than alternate between giving the players mobs of enemies they can take down easily and bigger solos and duos who can be a real threat to them on a crit.

Depending on the group, giving them the chance for OSR-style workarounds and difficulty reductions can be sensible.

[wraith snow]

My plan is to adapt a one-pager adventure I've run for 3.5 in the past, mostly because I want to take the chance to get familiar with encounter balance

[woeful pecan]

Wait. Magus gets level 9 spells now???

[wraith snow]

yep!

[tribal steeple]

Magus and other bounded casters get up to 9th level spells, but they pay for it in having a very limited selection. They only get I think 2 spell slots of their two highest spell levels, so a max level Magus would have 2x 9th and 2x 8th rank spells and otherwise has to get by on focus spells

or cantrips

[wary yoke]

At the low low cost of the rest of their spellcasting getting kneecapped, yes

[tribal steeple]

yeah I checked

• 5 cantrips
• 2 each of their two highest spell ranks
• whatever focus spells you get
  not accounting for wildcards like taking caster dedications or some class feats

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah everyone is full casters, its just a question of how full

[wary yoke]

They also get some extra slots for specific spells but it's not enough to earn back my love

[tribal steeple]

meanwhile bards got promoted to full 10th level occult casters

[wraith snow]

tbh they are a lot less martially competent than they used to be

[echo briar]

I would much rather have bounded casting than half casting tbh

scrolls and staves exist for low level stuff. but a 20th level magus only being able to spell strike with 5th level spells would have been so sad

and my summoner was way more useful with one big spell an encounter and some cantrips than if they could only cast weak spells every round

[wary yoke]

2/3rds casting went up to 6th level

And spells autoscaled

[echo briar]

I would still take it over 6th level spells

and autoscaling was a mistake to begin with

[wary yoke]

I well remember playing a retirement scenario with Pathfinder Society, we had a rogue/barbarian with us that was usually a GM and I surprised his player when we were listing our combat capabilities, and I said I was in full plate, constantly flying from Overland Flight, and had Teleport on tap.

Getting medium armor at the start and supporting different combat styles only plasters over so much

I am still very much hoping that Magus gets reprinted in whatever the Impossible book will be

[woeful pecan]

At a glance, bounded casting looks fine to me, especially with cantrip options that actually do damage and work with Spellstrike

[tribal steeple]

It is fine. You're trying to play a gish of some sort anyway and cantrips scale in damage, so you spellstrike with cantrips and hold your big boi spells for your nova options or self-buffs if you need those

[wary yoke]

My thing is, you used to have both available at higher levels

[wraith snow]

grasping claw my beloved

also Magus is one of the few casters who actually have an excuse to pack Puff of Poison which I appreciate

[woeful pecan]

On a different note, wtf happened to Sneak Attack?

[small meteor]

As in it got nerfed, or it disappeared?

[woeful pecan]

Nerfed, as far as I'm seeing

[wraith snow]

It's still solid, just less centralizing

At least imo

[woeful pecan]

I'm just not seeing what Rogue gets to compensate

[wraith snow]

Some very powerful feats, plus depending on subclass some nice benefits

Thief is the only way to add dex to damage, as an example

Though that does fall off once more and more runes get involved

[warped orbit]

Rogues can still hit just fine with their weapons

Sneak Attack mostly compensates them for having to use finesse weapons

but also Rogues are pretty up there in damage generally, mainly because of Opportune Backstab

get yourself a reach weapon, Gang Up, Opportune Backstab, Preparation if you really wanna double down

[wraith snow]

I managed to break 200 damage with my Rogue I played in Stolen Fates

[warped orbit]

turn into an absolute blender

[woeful pecan]

I'm just hoping I can wrangle my siblings into a game

We played 1e back in the day all the time

[echo briar]

Rogue is generally considered one of the best classes in the game

top at least

[wraith snow]

It's also the only surviving skill monkey

[echo briar]

Investigator

[wraith snow]

Ah, true

I forget that class exists a lot

[echo briar]

unless you need to be legendary in athletics, stealth, thievery, and acrobatics. Not one of them or even 3 of them, but all 4.

technically investigator cant do that because its skills are limited to mental stuff.

[wraith snow]

To be fair that's not an uncommon lineup of skills for a martial

[echo briar]

You don't really need both athletics and acrobatics. At least not to legendary.

[clever cobalt]

Thaumaturge isnt a "true" skill monkey but theyre great at Knowledge checks

Especially with the Tome implement

[wraith snow]

I can see the argument for Legendary Athletics and Master Acrobatics, at least

Kip Up is a hell of a drug

[echo briar]

also, an investigator can just take the acrobat dedication to get all 4

[silver geyser]

"What did rogues get in exchange for the sneak attack nerf?"

Raw, unmitigated power. 😛

That class inspires fear.

[woeful pecan]

I do hasten to point out my knowledge of this system only started about 6 hours ago lol

I'm also running on zero sleep so it's entirely possible my reading comprehension is. Not great rn

[wraith snow]

It's fine, their power is mostly loaded in feats, and even for people who play this game I assume aren't digging through feats of classes they don't play for fun

[woeful pecan]

Honestly I love the new feat-centered system. Customization was one of my favorite parts of 1e

[warped orbit]

Just take Acrobat

Fixed

[solar storm]

Yeah a lot of Rogue’s power is buried in class feats and their unparalleled access to skill feats and increases

But it’s hard to grok from the class page

[wraith snow]

I do love the nuclear attack build for Rogue, but man, I can't imagine playing that character in paper

[warped orbit]

Thief with an Elven Branched Spear is definitely on my list of stuff to play

[wraith snow]

God bless foundry because every attack had like 7 damage types and 15 toggles

[woeful pecan]

Oh yeah that reminds me

[warped orbit]

Clawdancer Thief is also hype

[woeful pecan]

The impression I'm getting is that 2e is a little lighter on the numbers. Is that accurate? How nightmarish are monster stat blocks?

[wraith snow]

Pretty clean honestly

[woeful pecan]

So far the one part of 1e that I've seen make it to 2e that I didn't like is just how spells are prepared

[wraith snow]

The math in the system is tight, but once you understand it making tweaks is simple enough. The key thing to note is that numerical inflation is less intense but the other side of the coin is that a small + or - to any given roll is a lot

[warped orbit]

Also because you mentioned it earlier
The Arcanist is basically the Flexible Spellcaster archetype now

[woeful pecan]

Oh excellent

[wraith snow]

I do really like 2e Ranger, as an aside

Much closer to 1e's Slayer than to older implementations of itself

[woeful pecan]

Honestly kinda love that a lot of the less distinct classes got rolled into archetypes. Still accessible and playable, but not taking up so much space

[wraith snow]

I really want to do a Flurry Ranger archery build at some point

[echo briar]

martial ranged sling, range 50 ft, 1+ hands, 1d6 b, reload 0, propulsive, boost d6. 

due to needing to spin the sling in a wide arc to get full power, you can not use the boost trait of this weapon while you are adjacent to any characters or obstacles.```  An attempt to make slings actually good. A real sling does not take longer to load than a longbow unless you are aiming for max power. Plus this is one of the few ways to justify boost in PF2.

[warped orbit]

Boost is cute

This does seem fine to me compared to a composite shortbow

[wary yoke]

Speaking of new ranged weapons, could I get some eyes on the old west-style advanced firearms for my setting?

[echo briar]

I think even for a advanced weapon, the fatal is too much.

[warped orbit]

I think it's fine personally

Sixgun is basically an advanced air repeater, so gaining fatal for that is fine I think

[wary yoke]

I had in mind that anything with repeating is a downgrade for a gunslinger

[warped orbit]

I'd need to check closer, but I think the levergun might actually be worse than an arquebus

Mostly just because capacity doesn't really matter for 2h guns

[warped orbit]

Well, not exactly
Needing to reload less often is generally good, even for Slinger

[wary yoke]

I can see that now, is there any way to plus it up you'd recommend?

[small meteor]

We have a ranger character-headmate. She's basically a forest warden.

Aerodynamic Brain Shape ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161695831775248426 message) I do really like 2e Ranger, as an aside

[wary yoke]

Actually, now that I think about it, would giving it agile be too clunky on a capacity weapon?

[echo briar]

do we know if the starfinder 2e GM book has any ancestries? The devs said every book would have them, but if any book is going to skip them its probably the GM core.

[rustic cape]

PF2e is generally a lot more careful about handing out damage bonuses because it has very tight math. It’s not really comparable to 1E sneak attack in terms of raw numbers because all of the numbers are different, not just Sneak Attack.

[woeful pecan]

So a little less on the rocket tag then? That's good

[rustic cape]

+1d6 damage in 2E is a lot

Having played a thief rogue 1-10, I never felt like my damage was bad. It was less consistent than that or the party barbarian but uh

Barbarians hit like trucks, it’s their thing.

[tribal steeple]

Rogues get a bunch of nasty rider effects to apply too on top of the damage

[rustic cape]

Yeah, rogues get a lot of good stuff.

And it’s easy for a rogue to do lots of different things.

[tribal steeple]

I did play a rogue for a while though and I DID get very bored. I mostly attribute that to the group dynamic not really fitting the class strengths.

[trim bluff]

(1e) why did they have to make the oracle curses so cool. i have like 7 character ideas and theyre all oracles because i want to play with all these different curses

[wary yoke]

While the linked curses in 2E are neat, I miss the original curses

[trim bluff]

possessed seems like a really fun curse to play as a plural person

one person plays the character and an alter plays the ghost

[fast hill]

Honestly 2e damage numbers are weird

Damage nowhere near scales with hp

Striking runes double your damage output but by the time you get them you've quadrupled your hp

[solar storm]

This hasn’t really been my experience at high levels though I haven’t played above level 16

I’m not sure where the “missing” damage comes from but it still feels pretty punchy up there

[trim bluff]

isnt there a dnd race thats very similar to this? i forgot the exact name, but i think we're doing another dnd campaign before any more pathfinder campaigns, so if i can build up the courage to come out as plural to my playgroup by then maybe i could manage something

[surreal basin]

I have!

I’ve played up to level 20 multiple times now

Tbh outside of enemies with extreme HP values

It just means one shots aren’t happening

It doesn’t really turn things into a grind imo

[errant roost]

oh, you might be thinking of Eberron's Kalashtar

but I think "I want to play a character and the ghost that's haunting them" is traditional fantasy enough that you could probably pitch it in whatever setting, with whatever ancestry (heck, that describes multiple characters from Pillars of Eternity)

[warped orbit]

damage runes do also make a big difference
also weapon specialization

and most classes also have extra damage through some way or another from class features

[tribal steeple]

I think we're at 13th level in Kingmaker now, and the Thaumaturge has pulled ahead of the Fighter in raw damage simply due to their insane flat damage added.

[warped orbit]

Fighter gets their damage mostly through their increased prof, so they hit more consistently and crit more

also from having good metastrikes

[turbid dagger]

Yeeee, Thaum is like
On par with barbarian flat damage wise, they just are restricted to smaller damage dice

[clever cobalt]

Don't forget procing weaknesses

[turbid dagger]

Well yes that's what I mean
Implement's Empowerment + Weakness

[clever cobalt]

Fair

[turbid dagger]

Roughly shakes out to the kind of flat damage an on level barbarian is doing

[tribal steeple]

Our fighter is specifically doing reach weapon stuff and especially crashing slam to auto-trip. This makes it VERY EASY for the thaumaturge to get set up for nuclear crits

[warped orbit]

yeah Crashing Slam is super good

especially with other melee buddies if they have Reactive Strike

[upbeat ridge]

Man

It sucks they can never remaster SOM

Cos those classes need the most work tbh

[tribal steeple]

Why not?

[upbeat ridge]

I’m not sure but I think it’s license reasons?

Oh

It’s that they would have to rework a lot more than the other books lore wise

It’s not a never but more a probably not

Maybe it will be in the book that runesmith and necro is in?

[tribal steeple]

I do think it has a whole lot of stuff like magic school traits (Conjuration, etc) so it'd probably be a pain in the ass to do, but that's not a never

I know they put out "Remaster" details of Magus and Summoner on the Demplane site

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah secrets of magic is just A Lot

itd basically just be a whole new book anyway

[vocal ember]

I do suspect they're gonna issue a whole new book for it at some point

[rustic cape]

I also did medic, which I think overwhelmingly plays to the strengths of the class.

[tribal steeple]

Yeah rogue makes a great medic solely because of their massive skill feats pool

they can afford passable WIS and easily keep it maxed in proficiency

[warped orbit]

Dark Archives Remastered is apparently listed on the Paizo site, so will probably happen soon-ish

wonder what they'll do for Psychic

[rustic cape]

Not just that. Mobility does wonders for doctor's visitation, and rogue doesn't really have any Flourish stuff to worry about missing out on. They also frequently have a third action to spare.

[turbid dagger]

According to the page, January 2026

[trim bluff]

doing a bit more research into pathfinder: wrath of the righteous, avoiding any story spoilers but getting to know the classes and such a little bit more

swarm-that-walks seems really fun, obviously not gonna do it on my first playthrough but for a second playthrough it seems fun

wild to me that theres a built-in murderhobo path

[woeful pecan]

Personally I found Lich to be way more fun, especially with a merged spellbook

[warped orbit]

Lich and Angel with merged spellbook are both crazy

[rustic cape]

I highly recommend angel for the first playthrough, it feels like the "canon" path to me.

[fast hill]

is there a way to get early weapon expertise as a full caster?

from what I can find it's 11th when you get weapon expertise

I've been tlaking to my friends about running a land of the linnorm kings game where they all get Viking free archetype

and it'd be cool to allow the casters to be functional in a shield wall

[turbid dagger]

PF2e is very stingy about weapon prof
Viking already gives shield stuff so for the casters that would like to be in melee their best bet is probably stuff like ignition and gouging claw

[fast hill]

yeah

feel like viking has wayyyy more utility for the martials than any casters naturally

any other thematic archetypes I could offer up?

[fast hill]

Valenhall is super awesome...

reading up about the ulfen

[warped orbit]

There's nothing that lets you accelerate weapon prof AFAIK

[fast hill]

Unnfortunate

No archetypes to get it earlier?

I've also been thinking about the prospect of a starfinder campaign set during the gap

the players are the first to leave the solar system, return and golarion is exploded

directly a reference to an old traveller campaign I ran, but earth is exploded in that one instead

[vocal ember]

Yeah, a core assumption as far as I can tell is that nobody gets higher proficiencies than they are allotted more or less. Closest I can think of is warpriest which directly exchanges it for slower casting proficiency.

[fast hill]

reminded of this for some reaosn

Definitely feels like golarion has a lot less edge

mostly a good thing

but it is sort of saddening to see most oppression dynamics dissapear except for the ones that are unintentionally hilarious

[trim bluff]

Final encounter of the campaign, fight against a rakshasa, it looked really intimidating and then we proceeded to absolutely wipe the floor with him

Not to brag, but i think i did the most
Kinetcist super struggled to get past the spell resistance, did good damage when he did but barely ever did
Fighter was doing like, 4 damage a turn (and only because of my buff spells i may add)
Paladin was honestly a really close second, that aura that makes people take half damage from 1 evil source is crazy
Now, heres what i did:
-pre fight, cast like 4 buff spells on the fighter, the damage ones let them actually do damage and the ac ones saved them from multiple hits early in the fight
-turn 1, cast bestow curse. Because of a thing i grabbed, had advantage on the spell resistance check and got past that. Used mythic nonsense to give them double disadvantage, causing them to fail the save. -4 to d20 rolls forever, rakshasa seriously struggling to land hits
-turn 2, cast doom, yet again succeed the spell resistance check and they fail because disadvantage plus the penalty they just got, so now theyre shakened. They entirely abandon trying to attack at this point because the fighter has nearly a 30 ac and the paladin nearly a 40, and resort to spamming lightning bolt.
-rest of the fight, i match their damage with my healing and keep everyone nearly topped up. Eventually, they run out of lightning bolt slots, and, having basically already lost, get pissed off and start spamming single target spells at me out of spite, despite the fact that ive also run out of slots and am doing nothing at this point. Despite this, they dont even manage to get me down before they die

Overall, it was insanely fun

[solar storm]

we love kill chains and buffing

[trim bluff]

Whats a kill chain?

[solar storm]

Stacking buffs and debuffs and such to make a really exceptional attack

[trim bluff]

Oh, nice

Also, question: the campaign is over, so this doesnt matter, but its really funny to think about: does bestow curse persist when a demon reforms in the abyss? It would be really funny if the rakshasa was still cursed down there

That is how demons work in pathfinder, right? Not just a dnd thing?

[solar storm]

I actually don't know if they reform

I've wondered myself

[trim bluff]

Thats how my dm ran it at least (rp wise; none of the demons we fought actually came back but the rakshasa said "i'll be back" as it died)

[solar storm]

I think usually they kinda die and are reborn so I think "normal curses" might not stick around

[trim bluff]

Ah, that makes sense

Kinda funny coincidence related to this conversation: my character for that campaign was a samsaran oracle whos curse has persisted through countless reincarnations

[frank crystal]

Chatroom, what’s a poison that could kill a level 10 player?

[vocal ember]

theoretically any poison that deals damage if the player is unlucky enough

actual serious answer: assuming it's for what you posted in tabletop-discussion, I suppose Deathcap Powder seems appropriate?

[fast hill]

step doesn't trigger readied actions i.e "if they advance towards me" right?

[warped orbit]

Correct

Step never triggers any reactions

[rustic cape]

... say, does anyone know if the prerequisities for level 10 spells in Wrath of the Righteous changed in one of the later patches?

[fast hill]

hmmm,m

the action compression of sudden charge vs the versatility of snagging strike

[fast hill]

we have a gunslinger rn in our Abomination Vaults campaign and it's their first time playing

and they have crit in every single encounter

[fast hill]

we're doing the beginners box first though and we're fighting a ||cinder rat|| and this thing is giving us more trouble than the ||young horned drake||

[fast hill]

our gunslinger just invented iced coffee in golarion

what a great end to session

[woeful pecan]

So what are the healing options in 2e, and how necessary are they? I know there's the Heal spell on the Divine and Primal lists, but what else has access to other forms of healing?

[fast hill]

champion has lay on hands

and it's very good

[surreal basin]

You need to have some form of healing

Especially out of combat, but even in combat, relying purely on consumables bought by individual party members is very risky

I phrase it like that because an alchemist pumping out potions is reliable enough imo

[sturdy lagoon]

Alchemists can easily provide elixirs

Medicine is the premier out of combat healing option if the only cost you're willing to take is time, and Battle Medicine handles in-combat

Witch has a hex or two for some healing, and beyond witch there's quite a few feat or archetype options to get focus spells that heal

It's not that hard to have some healing, and if a player is really trying, the only thing keeping people from healing back up after every fight is time pressure.

[warped orbit]

there's tons of healing options, both in and out of combat

[woeful pecan]

That's a really impressive variety actually

[warped orbit]

I personally played a Forensics Investigator in my AV/Stolen Fate campaign, and I was basically our party's primary healer just through Medicine

[fossil dome]

I love that, tbh

[sturdy lagoon]

There's also an archetype for just making elixirs, and an archetype for just lay on hands

[warped orbit]

Blessed One is also very useful if you need someone to flex into a bit of healing yeah

[sturdy lagoon]

Soothe is also on the occult spell list

1d10+4 per rank healing, single target only

[surreal basin]

And medic dedication quickly becomes actually busted lol

[sturdy lagoon]

Bard also has a focus spell for it, though it's fast healing and not instant

[fossil dome]

Yeah

Also Commander has infinite OOC helaing, iirc

[sturdy lagoon]

It's generally a character option so a party can still miss grabbing a source, but pf2e is not stingy with healing sources

[surreal basin]

If you miss a source of out of combat healing tho the party is kinda boned

[sturdy lagoon]

The GM basically has to dump elixirs on you at that point

[woeful pecan]

Healing from non-casters? Damn that's cool

[wraith snow]

One that hasn't been mentioned yet is Wood Kineticist's Fresh Produce and Water's Ocean Balm.

Exemplar has infinite self-healing via No Scar But This, and can heal allies once per 10 mins via The Radiance

I've seen significant upside from all of them

[woeful pecan]

I'm trying to rope my younger siblings (23, 21, 19, 15, and 13) into a game, and keeping composition in mind. Since the younger two will probably want to avoid casters, it's great to know they have so many options

The older two and I used to play 1e all the time, so I'm seeing if I can't give us all a reason to see each other more often

[sturdy lagoon]

Alchemy is a complicated source to leverage for healing if that's a problem, but one character with all the good medicine feats will handle any out of combat healing single handedly, and the medic archetype will then cover a fair bit of emergency combat healing, all without needing to juggle spell slots, temporary items, or focus points. You'll just need to keep track of who has been healed with what recently.

[fast hill]

our abomination vaults party is a fighter, champion, gunslinger and sorcerer and our healing consists pretty much entirely of heal scrolls and lay on hands

our fights are incredibly short because we output so much damage so we just take an hour to rest up between fights and the champion heals everyone

if we take any damage in the first place

[woeful pecan]

Simpler options would be better for the younger ones for sure

[fast hill]

lay on hands is 10 minutes, 6 guaranteed hp

as in 10 minute cooldown, 1 action to cast

(if you have time to refocus)

[woeful pecan]

19 likes rogues so that's easy enough. 15 I'm not sure about, but if she's gonna be a caster I'll probably nudge her towards Sorcerer. 13 is an absolute wild card. 21 is most likely GMing, but otherwise would be a martial. 23 may not even be interested

[warped orbit]

Medicine is very easy to use for out of combat heals, you basically just need Continual Recovery

[fast hill]

Continual recovery is very nice

[woeful pecan]

Which requires expert in medicine, and level 2, correct?

[fast hill]

ye

technically only way to get it at lvl 2 is rogue

but you could get it at 3 with a general feat

[woeful pecan]

That answers my next question then

[fast hill]

was the next question "how do you get expert at level 2?"

[woeful pecan]

Yup

[fast hill]

rogue and the pathfinder archetype

yeah

pathfinder dedication gets you expert in a skill iirc

and rogue gets a skill increase at every level

I think my biggest problem with pathfinder is that I don't feel good at stuff I'm specced into, just bad at stuff I'm not

this is fine for most of my builds but I'm really feeling it in my kingmaker game as a commander

I feel like I have hit one of the very few wrong ways to build a character

[surreal basin]

I played a medical investigator with medic and some of the rare medicine feats once

I would say I probably outclassed cleric on healing

W that build

[woeful pecan]

I'm just salivating over the character I've put together and trying to flesh out her backstory

Made a mini last night too

[fast hill]

nvm I might be cooking

have you ever read back through options in a ttrpg and saw something you absolutely need?

I just looked through the commander tactics and found pincer attack

and suddenly the entire class started making sense

[sturdy lagoon]

Oh yeah pf2e does that to you

[woeful pecan]

I'm finding that out lol

[sturdy lagoon]

Lot less "reality checks" to dull the rush of new a character concept than 1e

Though generally more restrictive in when and where you can take options, so you do have to make sacrifices somewhere if your idea really pushes boundaries

[woeful pecan]

Though I feel like that would probably tighten up the balance

In particular it looks like the martial/caster disparity might not be so bad?

[sturdy lagoon]

Pf2e is Very Balanced, which is the usual neutral descriptor I give for explaining it

Martial and casters are closer to each other, yeah, but try to fall into different niches. Their ability to replace skill monkeys is much weaker, many utility spells that can permanently change the flow of a campaign are restricted, and a combination of high level spell rebalance and the Incapacitation trait means they can't instantly end most fights, just turn them in your favor.

[woeful pecan]

Hell yeah

[fast hill]

casters are basically entirely a support role now

[woeful pecan]

Options like Commander, Guardian, and Investigator also open up martials a lot more to other roles imo

[fast hill]

with some horde clear

commander is so cool

and does not need to be built like a martial

I am running an int/cha marshal and he basically exists to recall knowledge and look sexy

[tribal steeple]

I really want to play a Commander because those tactics SPEAK TO ME

[fast hill]

he has the marshal archetype which is REALLY cutting into my commander feats that I really really really want

[woeful pecan]

See I'm really interested in Guardian. I'm glad to FINALLY see an actual, proper tank class

Complete with taunts and everything

[surreal basin]

taunt was even better at its job of redirecting aggro in the playtest too

[sturdy lagoon]

Horde clear will depend on the composition of fights throughout the campaign (APs are notoriously lacking…), but yeah, single target damage will still strain your slots and is better left to someone who can do it all day, same as in 1e

And in 2e, a good chunk classes can do that all day

If you remember trying to pull the god wizard bit in 1e, you're usually playing something like that but paizo demoted you from deity

[fast hill]

champion is a tank class imo

but yeah

[warped orbit]

Champion very much is a tank, yeah

[warped orbit]

ehhh
I do prefer the release version much more

[woeful pecan]

I haven't looked at them a ton yet, do they get tools to draw aggro or redirect damage?

[fast hill]

not redirect, cancel

most of the positive champion types get the ability to give flat resistance to an attacks

[warped orbit]

mostly just Champion reaction being really strong yeah

[fast hill]

no aggro tools but

imo all frontliners have aggro tools

it's called being a giant beefcake in metal armor smashing your shield into someone's face

[surreal basin]

Well, taunt is an aggro tool

Oh, champ

Me dumb

[fast hill]

I await hellbreakers with bated breath but I HATE 2e cheliax

[woeful pecan]

What'd they do?

[fast hill]

They're just kinda boring

They dont do anything

That's the thing

In 1e they were fascist evil, now they are theoretically a fascist government but hold the oppression

[woeful pecan]

Ah so they got sanitized

[fast hill]

"Get me a fascist government to topple with NOTHIN"

"NOTHIN?"

I wish languages meant more

I wanna feel good taking stuff like multilingual but anyone worth talking to speaks common and the creatures that dont speak it tend to not appreciate conversation

I wish each culture had its own language

Give me chelaxian, taldane, andoran (andoric??) Etc etc

[woeful pecan]

One of my favorite vocal stims lol

[fast hill]

Omg same

[wraith snow]

Yeah, the most common use I've seen for languages other than common is eavesdropping

[wooden orbit]

Guess you gotta homebrew in the oppression.

Like I understand the desire...but uhh...I roleplayed on the Sith Empire in SWTOR, like I knew what I was getting into. I wanted to play a unabashedly clear villain.

[silver geyser]

Boy do I have a fun fact to share about early Golarion and Chelexian being a language!

This is in the Rise of the Runelords player guide!

[turbid dagger]

I get their motivation and largely agree with it
Slavery was extremely commonplace in Pathfinder prior to Firebrands
But they did overdo it
Rather than reducing the ubiquity of 'waow slavery' as an indicator of 'this is a villain group' they totally annihilated it, including in places where it made zero sense to remove slavery

[silver geyser]

But yeah, I don't really like Cheliax with no teeth.

Like, sure, they deal with Devils.

What else?

I admittedly don't know a ton of places that actually did the Slavery thing prior to Firebrands.

There's, like

Okeno?

Cheliax?

And honestly that's about it?

Probably does come up in Druma.

Also kinda undermines one of the big positives of the River Kingdoms going "If you get here, you are free, and we will fight whoever comes to dispute that."

[turbid dagger]

I mean, the draconian laws where you get impaled on spikes for not saying hail satan is still there

[wooden orbit]

@silver geyser hey it did get better! this Chelaxian noble said I’m free. I can just work to pay off my debt to him. Shouldn’t take me too long!

[woeful pecan]

Crowd sourcing ideas for blorbo, here's what I have so far:

The Fulcrum is a Jistkan automaton, who has spent the better part of her known life in seclusion, honing her body and mind to channel arcane energies in hopes of reaching some strange sort of enlightenment (or better yet, recovering lost memories. At some point, she became a Twisting Tree Magus, which led to her name (if her staff is the lever, then she is The Fulcrum).

What I'm trying to figure out:

• Where exactly has she been camping out?
• Who was she in the Imperium?
  (Other miscellaneous suggestions are also welcome)

[echo briar]

I mean, they kill a bunch of people. The problem is that the players do too.

But “killing thousands of people feels less evil than objectively less bad but more grounded evils” is not unique to pathfinder

[wraith snow]

Irrisen I guess but that's very much on a much smaller scale than what's seen elsewhere.

[vocal ember]

Let's see... in the PF2e world guide I see slavery mentioned as a thing in the following places:

• Katapesh
• Okeno
• Qadira (particularly Sedeq). Church pushing to abolish it.
• Iku-tursos capture ships to sell their crew to slavery.
• Alghollthus obviously
• Geb
• Usaro
• Cheliax ofc
• Irrisen (in the sense that Baba Yaga "killed those who resisted and enslaved those who did not" whatever that means)

[surreal basin]

I think that’s before they made slavery not a thing

As in they don’t mention it anymore

[vocal ember]

Yeah, I was talking about where slavery was before Firebrands canonized that it's now banned in a lot of places

(or well, more places than it was before anyhow)

[vocal ember]

First thought that comes to mind is that the Jistka Imperium is bordered by the Barrier Wall mountain range (the mountains are very tall hence the name). So maybe she's camping out there? Also, this is kind of a silly idea, but maybe she was sent on some kind of mission there, keeps getting sidetracked, and is unaware the empire fell thousands of years ago.

[woeful pecan]

Oh I do love silly character ideas

I'm not sure how plausible it is though. The vast majority of Automatons lose their memories over time, so it's unlikely she remembers the Imperium at all by this point

[true delta]

Maybe, she wrote it down.

[wooden orbit]

Or has a drive to complete this mission but by this point doesn’t even remember what the mission is

Or why she has the drive

[fast hill]

my biggest problem with slavery dissapearing is

wtf do the eagle knights do now

might be explored in hellbreakers???

idk

Fellas what hunters edge would an awakened wolf be

Im imagining either outwit or the precision one

Precision one with a natural weapon could be real interesting

[fast hill]

precision makes the most sense, take tooth and claw at 1st level. open with jaws attack, second attack to proc precision strike is claws

claw dancer is so cool but unfortunately it doesn't work with jaws 😭

[paper inlet]

May be able to revive my pookie baby nephilim swashbuckler but in Pf1e and I have limited understanding of Pf1e other than what I remember from playing 3e dnd

[fast hill]

Mythic rules sound so cool on paper but they look really boring in practice

[fast hill]

taking additional lore fey in our kingmaker campaign

GM sent me a message going

"YESSSSS"

"I mean... That could be a good idea."

[warped orbit]

definitely will come in handy later

[fast hill]

yeah for sure

it's why I'm gonna be taking it

[tribal steeple]

Additional Lore is so baller as a skill feat if you can be reasonably sure on the topic.

[sturdy lagoon]

The wording adjustment to Additional Lore so you can actually boost your background lore was a good change for roleplaying purposes as well

[surreal basin]

Being legendary in a specific lore is pretty much the only way to reasonably RK on unique creatures as well lol

[woeful pecan]

Game with my siblings looks to be shaping up well. Looks like so far we'll have a Twisting Tree Magus, a Demonic Sorcerer, and a Summoner of some sort

[woeful pecan]

Question about party comp

In a party that already has a Twisting Tree Magus and a Demonic Sorcerer, would a better fit be:

• Investigator (either Interrogation or Forensic Medicine)
• Summoner (Dragon eidolon)

There'll also be one or two other PCs, but they're unknown currently

[sturdy lagoon]

investigator is a big question about the kind of campaign. if it's hard to justify relevant leads then the class struggles in action economy, and without mysteries big and small then it loses some out of combat utility

[woeful pecan]

Homebrew campaign, likely centered in Osirion and involving a bunch of undead

[turbid dagger]

I'd lean towards Summoner simply because Investigator just kind of doesn't excel unless you are in a campaign rife with the kind of skill checks its features improve upon

[sturdy lagoon]

summoner is a fun little gish and while it's no tank, the eidolon can make for a decent frontliner, as it shares your 10*lvl hit points and can therefore afford a few hits compared to the average caster

(it's also melee, obviously)

[woeful pecan]

Alright, so what can be done (if anything) to mitigate the Summoner's complexity?

Also, should I nudge them towards a different eidolon for broader spell access?

[wraith snow]

Meld Into Eidolon takes up a contested class feat slot but it does admittedly make managing combat MUCH easier, it's just likely not something the player would like to use all the time in which case it's not actively helping complexity very much

also Dragon is Arcane which is about as blessed for spell choice as you can be in this system

[surreal basin]

Tbh they’re both what I would consider to be like

Advanced classes

Forensic Medicine investigator, imo shines in any campaign as a primary healer

Especially w free archetype medic

[wraith snow]

As an aside, I've finally settled on a class/character concept for one of the games I'm in, I had a really fleshed out character concept initially which then turned out to be mechanically nearly identical to another party member

[fossil dome]

Ooooh, nice

[wraith snow]

I was initially going to build a brawling-group Fleshwarp Fighter built around Clawdancer but someone else wanted to do Gymnast Swash Clawdancer which ended up being built almost identically

[tribal steeple]

I want to play a Commander with the Teacher background. They are your retired military gym coach who has been called by necessity back into adventure.

[wraith snow]

And I decided I like the character concept enough to want to do it at another point rather than tweaking the build to be something else

[wraith snow]

This is effectively one of my partymates in Kingmaker, granted it was before Commander was printed

[tribal steeple]

The hypothetical this is for would be i think season of ghosts

Our kingmaker group is rather caster weighted

[wraith snow]

They're playing a Runtboss Hobgoblin who is effectively a goblin chieftain who's now far beyond their station, which works out well given my character is the same concept but is a Kobold elder

We've done over 100 sessions and I still think my favourite moment to date was our party being asked to go ||wipe out a Kobold tribe at the very start||

(spoilers for like level 2-3 of Kingmaker)

Has also continued to be relevant more or less the entire time

[woeful pecan]

See now I'm just considering how to make Harry du Bois

Teacher background, Interrogation Investigator maybe?

[echo briar]

animist

[wraith snow]

Champion of Cayden Cailean

[woeful pecan]

But anyway back to this, my concern with her being an Arcane caster is that we already have one, and in a similar role and limitations. Magus is also a bounded caster, but isn't limited by the World's Smallest Repertoire

[turbid dagger]

So this is maybe a controversial take
But once in play Summoner has not felt complex at all to me
The summoner is a very basic caster with no gimmicks
The Eidolon is a very basic martial with no gimmicks
Act Together essentially is just an extra action each turn
You will largely just be Striding, Casting Spells, or Striking

[woeful pecan]

I imagine the complexity is mostly keeping track of multiple sets of stats

[turbid dagger]

Well, are you playing on a vtt

[woeful pecan]

Nope, irl

Primarily using Pathbuilder for character tracking probably

[wraith snow]

also positioning, which is why I suggest Meld Into Elemental if possible

[turbid dagger]

A little bit more complex then, but stuff like pathbuilder can help a lot cuz it should auto calc your eidolons stuff

Meld into Eidolon is usually an active debuff because you are going from an unremarkable caster and unremarkable martial with more actions than usual to an unremarkable martial with the normal amount of actions

The best practical use I've seen for it is a vampire PC that hid inside their Eidolon during the day

[wraith snow]

Yeah, I agree it's not great but they mentioned wanting a way to simplify the class and it WILL achieve that goal

[wraith snow]

what I ended up settling on what a Goblin Ranger that's primarily a shortbow user but is generally intended to be in close quarters at all times

debating going down the Monster Hunter feat chain to attempt to use the Supertaster feat

[surreal basin]

No more than like

An animal - ah fuck

I was scrolled up

[woeful pecan]

I guess the spellcasting complexity is lessened by the small repertoire

[wraith snow]

The catch is that they'll still need to sift through the spell list every level up

[woeful pecan]

True, but character creation will likely be the largest hurdle regardless

Once they get some hands on experience it should be more manageable, I'm just trying to smooth the curve as much as I can

[turbid dagger]

I've just been informed that
The Magnetar Rifle

Literally just traces the Halo 4 Railgun

The hand holes, the bump in the stock, the d shaped black patch at the base of the rails

[surreal basin]

So it does!

[fossil dome]

Is that such a bad thing?

[lost bluff]

Tracing is generally considered bad

Like with Greg Land, who's traced other people's works for Marvel comics (including "adult" material)

[wary yoke]

I knew it seemed familiar from somewhere

[frank crystal]

It’s kinda funny you can tell it was poorly cropped in too

[echo briar]

Have you considered that the halo devs are just huge SF fans (and can see the future)?

[woeful pecan]

Okay, so then with a Demonic Sorcerer, Twisting Tree Magus, and Dragon Summoner, what other classes would best round out the party?

[warped orbit]

Something front line-y probably

Another martial

[woeful pecan]

My mind is drawn to Monk or Ranger for wisdom, but idk how much they want anymore

[tribal steeple]

Divine, arcane, arcane. Consider another martial or a class that dips into occult/primal for more spell versatility

[woeful pecan]

A level of simplicity would also be ideal

[tribal steeple]

Monk is awesome as a simple but versatile and self-sufficient off-tank/striker

The action economy compression of flurry of blows is very nice and leads you to be much more mobile

Not to mention the frankly stupid movement speed

I opened several fights with "I run 50ft the long way around everyone and grapple the big bad enemy into Restrained"

[woeful pecan]

Speaking of Monk, is there any way for them to get DEX unarmed attacks? I didn't see anything at first glance, but it's a big system

[tribal steeple]

Unarmed attacks are implicitly Finesse

[woeful pecan]

And that'd be what I'm missing apparently lol

[tribal steeple]

So you can use dex to attack, but not for damage

Well

ASTERISK because I'm not sure that's 100% accurate but it's generally true until you get into stance attacks which may not be finesse

[wary yoke]

Yeah, I thought the appeal for stance attacks was that they gave new unarmed attacks with different traits

[wraith snow]

Not always, but usually

[warped orbit]

A lot of stances are finesse

The majority actually

[echo briar]

Nope, its 100% accurate.

Only way to get dex to damage is thief rogue

which as a monk, you can not get

[tribal steeple]

The claim i was making is finesse, not dex to damage

I'm not in position to verify this statement factually but you can kinda assume any of your various monk attacks default to permitting DEX as your attack stat (STR is still your damage bonus)

[wraith snow]

A Goblin with both the biting ancestry and the sharpened teeth feat loses finesse, some specific ancestry options never have itnto begin with such as Minotaur's horns

[warped orbit]

There's a few non finesse stances, but not that many

[tribal steeple]

Mountain stance monks can afford to dump dex some since the stance covers their armor

[warped orbit]

Dragon, Mountain, I think Gorilla?

Stoked Flame is Str I believe

Goat might also be

[woeful pecan]

I'd probably suggest this player goes dex, just to have someone cover the relevant skills

[trim bluff]

ok quick question, ive never played pathfinder monk before and im gonna get wrath of the righteous soon, planning for a monk on my first playthrough, and im only just remembering how insanely hard pathfinder makes it to get dex on attacks, so i wanted to ask, do monks need strength? is there anything special you need to do to get dex for your unarmed strikes? normally id just look up the rules but im really zoned out rn and anything too dense wont go through so i need a summary

[solar storm]

Yes you need some strength

[stuck bane]

Iirc Mythic rules offer a way to get dex on damage for finesse weapons but it can take some time to get access to. And in the meantime dumping strength makes things very difficult. If it’s the crpg you can always respec later though

[woeful pecan]

You don't need strength, except maybe at the beginning. You can get an amulet of agile fists in act 1 iirc

[trim bluff]

oh nice

[stuck bane]

Oh right those amulets

[woeful pecan]

And yeah, Mythic Weapon Finesse gives dex to damage if you're using weapons

That'll probably be your best long-term solution

[solar storm]

Oh I badly misread whoops

[trim bluff]

in that case ill be willing to take the extra difficulty right at the start if it means i dont need like 4 good stats (wisdom is important for monks, right?)

[stuck bane]

Gives you better AC and some abilities key off it iirc

[trim bluff]

yeah

[stuck bane]

Good Wisdom saves are also just nice to have

[woeful pecan]

Keep in mind wotr gets pretty nuts as time goes on. Buff stacking is the name of the game, so make sure you don't neglect your casters

[woeful pecan]

Especially once you start seeing Derakni and Vrocks in act 2

[clever cobalt]

This is because i love fucking with Spellcasters

[rustic cape]

Disrupting Stance is a hell of a drug until Laughing Fit hits.

[warped orbit]

Disrupting Stance is crazy strong

no fun allowed for casters

[wraith snow]

I managed to catch a boss encounter with laughing fit in a homebrew campaign I'm in, incredibly satisfying

[woeful pecan]

... Does laughing fit work with Spellstrike?

Because the idea of "the giggle stick" is intensely amusing to me

[wraith snow]

Yes

Though most people dislike using non-damaging save spells for spellstrike

[woeful pecan]

I'm sure, it's probably not a good strategy, but it's definitely a funny one

"It's not magic you oaf, it's called a godsdamn CONCUSSION"

[warped orbit]

the issue with using save spells on Spellstrike is that you don't get the main benefit of Spellstrike
that being that the spell shares result with your attack

[woeful pecan]

That and limited slots means you really wanna make sure it sticks

[rustic cape]

It does, but there’s very little point, especially given one of the big advantages of Laughing Fit and Roaring Applause is almost never failing to shut down reactions.

Adding a point of failure is kinda the painful for a spell like that.

Also, since it’s sustained, maguses really like having someone else put it up.

[woeful pecan]

For sure

[rustic cape]

As you get into higher levels I start to think it’s absolutely essential for a party with a magus.

Animists are really good for it, since the murder clown apparition gets it and they are the masters of sustain.

[wraith snow]

Even at low levels in the homebrew game I'm in it's felt very good on my Witch

[rustic cape]

It’s also a very nice spontaneous pickup since you never need to care about heightening it.

Roaring applause is completely demented if they fail the save and the party can do its own reactive strikes.

[wraith snow]

Yeah, unfortunately not good for our party bc we don't have one of those but conceptually very powerful

[woeful pecan]

I'm just hoping this game doesn't immediately implode

I miss my siblings, and I think this'll help us make time for each other

[rustic cape]

Hm, now I’m pondering what theorycrafted party of four I would put together.

[tribal steeple]

Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard

[rustic cape]

Would of course work well, but I think at the very least I’d sub animist for cleric.

And possibly sorcerer in for wizard.

Which tempts me to do other stuff.

[woeful pecan]

Depending on the campaign, maybe could do Champion, Investigator, Animist, and Sorcerer?

[rustic cape]

Fighter and Rogue are very nice together because of fighter’s hitting odds benefitting Opportunistic Backstab disproportionately.

[dusky barn]

I gotta crazy ask. Anyone got a campaign they could add 2 folk to? My lil bro and I lost our original TTRPG group.

[woeful pecan]

Mostly just thinking "aloud," but lmk if this hypothetical group is missing anything major

• Twisting Tree: Recall Knowledge skills, balanced frontliner, utility cantrips
• Demonic Sorcerer: face skills, support magic, backline DPR
• Dragon Summoner: beefy frontliner, AoE damage, demoralize/intimidate
• Monk: Treat Wounds, evasive striker, debuffer?

[dusky barn]

Not seeing a "Stealth" character but idk how necessary everyone views that

[woeful pecan]

Good catch, Monk would likely cover dex skills

[true delta]

You could check whether something's been advertised in #misc-game-recruiting.

[dusky barn]

Oh hell yeah I didn't know there was a channel for it ty

[tribal steeple]

Monk makes for an excellent sneaky skill character. The insane speed benefits let you get crazy with it.

[wraith snow]

Same for air kinet

[rustic cape]

Air kineticist gets some wild stuff.

[fossil dome]

Crowned in Tempest's Fury

Honestly both Air Kinet capstones go hard

[tribal steeple]

shout out to my boi H E L L O F 1 , 0 0 0 , 0 0 0 N E E D L E S over in metal

[wraith snow]

Kineticist is second only to Exemplar for feat names that go too hard

[tribal steeple]

kineticists really are the king of "let's fuck up every battlefield we come to"

full casters have their tricks but they ain't doing it all day every day

[wraith snow]

I admit I am kind of sick of them though

[fossil dome]

Remember

Wood Kinet can make a tree every 6 seconds

Ad infinitum

[wraith snow]

Every table I've been at since they were added has had 1 player on Kineticist and often a second on the dedication

[fossil dome]

Being John Avatar is appealing

[wraith snow]

and despite this I've still yet to actually see anyone pick Earth Gate

Metal has been the most popular, then water, then fire

[tribal steeple]

It is merely a sapling that doesn't even obstruct movement, but it certainly does have capacity to be a significant reforestation effort that props up an entire city's long term lumber industry

[fossil dome]

"I wake up in the morning and i go outside, and I take a deep breath and I get real high, and I plant...... 3 thousand trees"

[woeful pecan]

Literally my face on seeing 2e Kineticist just straight up doesn't have Burn anymore

[wraith snow]

Honestly this isn't an inaccurate summary of my Kingmaker character lmao

Primal spell list + Morphic Manipulation

[tribal steeple]

5 hours well spent

[wraith snow]

also, it's always nice to find out that there's a feat specifically designed for a specific character concept you're using

[warped orbit]

I played a Earth/Wood Kineticist in a game

[warped orbit]

This is also always interesting to me, because to me Metal is probably the least appealing element

[wraith snow]

Yeah, conceptually it's very fascinating and from a strictly narrative perspective you could imagine a lot of fun creative uses against enemies in plate or using metal weapons but the reality of it is... ehhh

[woeful pecan]

Tangent: what details are particularly interesting about Osirion outside of it being "ancient Egypt analogue #37?"

[wraith snow]

Shoutouts to Molten Wire though, that's a winner

[tribal steeple]

Currently (as in actively in session) with my Wood/Metal Kineticist, I love the ability to MAKE THINGS on the spot as a wildcard of roleplay creativity.

[wraith snow]

If you're setting it in [Current Year] they did just have a significant amount of Gods go radio silent, it's also the homeland of Nethys and presumed to be the location of the Akashic Records

[tribal steeple]

Got put on the spot to do storytelling for a large audience with only an hour prep, so I step out back and start Basic Kinesis + Expanded Kinesis + Crafting to make all the props I need :)

"Matter cannot be created nor destroyed, lmao says who" - metal/wood kineticist just spawning raw materials and molding them like clay on the spot

[wraith snow]

Oh, also somewhat interesting to me about Osirion is precisely that it's not just an ancient Egypt analogue but also due to the timeline of the setting also a modern Egypt analogue

Often pillaged for artifacts by other nations and there are plenty of scholars who dedicate themselves entirely to the study of ancient Osirion despite having little to no connection to the modern nation

[sturdy lagoon]

IIRC it's not actually just an ancient egypt analogue, they were a sister kingdom at some point.

with egypt.

on earth.

that's why they have the same gods

[tribal steeple]

Golarion is fucking strange

[sturdy lagoon]

they share architectural history like that too

[tribal steeple]

why is Baba Yaga there
why is the actual egyptians there
why are conan barbarians fighting robots in the north

[wraith snow]

Well the answer for Baba Yaga is basically "bored lol"

[sturdy lagoon]

the gateway connecting the two got cut off at some point which left osirion alone to an independent future

[woeful pecan]

And this is why it's my second favorite setting behind Eberron

[sturdy lagoon]

I don't actually remember which canonically came first in terms of deities, architecture, and society, though.

[fossil dome]

Why is there an AP where you murder Rasputin

Yes, that one

[sturdy lagoon]

my favorite thing about numeria is how close it is to the worldwound

one of the failure states for WotR (AP version) posits that if the demons reached the tech league, while they'd put up a fight, inevitably, there would be CYBORG DEMONS

oh and the tech league is basically running The Masquerade but for Space Technology instead of magic, which is why you don't find laser pistols anywhere else

[fossil dome]

Yeah

it's the thought out kitchen sink approach that I love

[tribal steeple]

Don't forget that elves are genuinely aliens, as well

[wraith snow]

I also enjoy their superstitions around the dangers of the crash sites that turns out to just be actual radiation

[tribal steeple]

They're from Castrovel

[sturdy lagoon]

some of them evacuated Golarion before Earthfall and could probably have told you about the whole deal

[woeful pecan]

Okay so now I need a WotR follow-up that's just Doom

[tribal steeple]

A lot of them did, in fact. The ones we have today are the elves who didn't (failed?) to evacuate back to Castrovel.

Dunno what they wound up doing on Castrovel but they didn't really come back IIRC.

And all their stargate tech fell into disrepair more or less. Some of it's still around and active.

[sturdy lagoon]

iirc earthfall fucked up so many gates castrovel assumed everyone was dead

[wraith snow]

also re: Baba Yaga, I'm playing a Witch from Irrisen who's both related and has her as a patron

I'm very happy that there's a feat for specifically that exact character concept

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=957

[sturdy lagoon]

Old Mage Jatembe is a pretty cool figure that comes out of Earthfall

went around unburying the secrets of magic, became among the first mages since earthfall, disentangled arcane magic theory from whatever the fuck the runelords did to it, posited a theory of (formerly universal before occult and primal became a thing) "halcyon" magic, founded the first magic school since earthfall right in the Mwangi Expanse. might have met baba yaga on polite terms?

[wraith snow]

They respect each other, yeah

Though it is funny to consider the idea that Jatembe is All That in the lore and despite that Baba Yaga had something like 6 levels on him based on their 1e stat blocks

Which about lines up with the idea that the only reason Baba Yaga isn't a God is because she doesn't want to be

[sturdy lagoon]

baba yaga threatened the writers

[woeful pecan]

Re: an earlier conversation, I think finding the Akashic Record could be a good goal for my automaton character

Recover lost knowledge about the Imperium, and about her own history

[wary yoke]

And unlimited dogs

[turbid dagger]

Not unlimited, merely all the dogs ever, past present and future

[wary yoke]

I was referring to the Hounds of Tindalos, IIRC they don't like people messing with the akashic record

[wary yoke]

Dog

I do kinda prefer the 1E version

Even less doglike

[wraith snow]

Man I hate those enemies lol

In a good way, at least

[errant roost]

https://www.humblebundle.com/books/pathfinder-primer-bundle-paizo-books

[fast hill]

I'm in an abomination vaults campaign that's also doing trouble in otari as side stuff and we did the beginners box too

we're half way through level 2 and we haven't even started AV

[wary yoke]

My players hated them because I always had them attacking preceded by them using their SLAs

Obscuring Mist was the worst one for them to deal with, ironically

[rustic cape]

"That dog's sick!"

[fast hill]

man having no strength or dex is a real problem

I have 2 strength and I am struggling for good AC options

I just rocked full plate on horseback for a while before our group started to get more and more close quarters maps

[turbid dagger]

Yeee, unfortunately that setup is the purview of only a few select ancestries
Automaton is the biggie, Dragonblood a bit behind it

[fast hill]

just gonna grab scale and then grab breastplate at lvl 10

[woeful pecan]

Looks like our Summoner may go with a pläent

[woeful pecan]

Thinking wayyy too long-term, but I'm debating archetypes. Namely, Sentinel or Wizard. The extra slots would be invaluable, but heavy armor is a hefty boost for less feats. Right now, the class feat progression is:

2: Force Fang
4: Student of the Staff
6: Reactive Strike
8: Standby Spell
10: Lunging Spellstrike

From there, Wizard Dedication and Basic Spellcasting at 12 and 14. Is that a good level to take it? Or would it be better sooner?

[woeful pecan]

Psychic may just be outright better... But idk about the flavor

[rustic cape]

What's your main class? Magus?

Imaginary weapon spellstrike is a hell of a drug, hits like a truck.

Sentinel is solid, but my hot take is that since there are only two sentinel feats work taking — the dedication, and mighty bulwark — in a free archetype game it can be better to take at 8th or so. Which is unfortunately awkward since you'll want some dexterity early and then it will become irrelevant to you.

Longer term, I maintain the Sixth Pillar is a good pick on any caster, if only for https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2741

[wary yoke]

I'm breathing a sigh of relief because our unbalanced party is going to be balanced

Our gun-monk is going to be retooling to druid, possibly keeping guns as a beast gunner

[rustic cape]

Were they going bullet dancer?

[wary yoke]

Yeah

[rustic cape]

Is bullet dancer bad? It's a little opaque to me.

Conceptually it amuses me a great deal.

[wary yoke]

They were doing it poorly either way, with jezails

[rustic cape]

Aha

[wary yoke]

Which technically works

And I'm sure you could do some very funny things with that combo

But it was not executed well

He was punching with unmodified unarmed strikes at 7th level

[rustic cape]

oof

[wary yoke]

Also we are:
Melee Exemplar
TWF assassin rogue
Melee battle bard
And formerly, a melee inventor

[warped orbit]

It's not great IMO

[wary yoke]

Mixing gun attacks with flurry is a neat trick, but giving up stances to do it is a little too much to ask

[craggy thunder]

I think I'm gonna make an Absolver character as a PF character

using monk and either soulforger or mind smith

[fast hill]

going crazy on the wrath of the righteous character creator trying to choose a class

[warped orbit]

Do you know what Mythic path you're thinking of taking?

[fast hill]

nop

I should pick that and pick smthn thematic

[wraith snow]

Plus some of the mythic paths are just heavily mechanically pushed in one direction

[fast hill]

lich could be

kind of peak

[wraith snow]

Fair warning, though I'll try to keep it spoiler free:

The mythic paths are not all built the same in terms of content

And Angel/Demon are the winners by far

[warped orbit]

If you go Lich, going an arcane caster is huge

For merged spellbook

[fast hill]

that's fair

I've had a glance over them

[turbid dagger]

Yeeee
Angel and Lich are probably the strongest ones mechanically, and Angel is probably the most well developed narratively

[wraith snow]

I would generally suggest one of those for a first run, though you definitely don't have to. I did Azata first and it was fine.

[fast hill]

lich gets unique companions I see?

[warped orbit]

Yes

You get graveguards

[wraith snow]

Including my favourite special man

[warped orbit]

Though they unfortunately don't get much dialogue

So consider getting Toybox for remote companion dialogue in that case

[wraith snow]

Spoilers: ||God bless Staunton, gold medalist of the fuck up Olympics||

[fast hill]

the real question is what do my dating options look like as a lich

[wraith snow]

||he tries his best that just isn't very good||

[warped orbit]

The upside of the graveguards is mostly that they benefit from your aura and other undead buffs

[warped orbit]

Uhhh, you only lose two companions I think?

Seela leaves you if you're evil I believe

[wraith snow]

So there's an answer here that I feel is very relevant for if you care about romance

But is also spoiler heavy

To put it as generically as I can, the final step of the Lich mythic quest will end any romance you're involved in, regardless of choices made

So going to the end of the lich path is mutually exclusive

[warped orbit]

oh uh, right that part

forgot about that

[fast hill]

ahhhh fuck

can you "fall" as a paladin?

really tempted to start paladin with the intention to doing more evil shit and eventually going demon

[warped orbit]

you can lose your Paladin benefits if you go against alignment definitely

don't know if certain actions can also cause it

[fast hill]

does wotr has respecs?

[warped orbit]

yes

[fast hill]

have*

awesome

[warped orbit]

and for the MC it's mostly full respecs too fortunately

[fast hill]

Aasimar paladin to demon

[warped orbit]

for companions you only get to respec them to the point you first met them at most

which is a mild issue for some of them...

[fast hill]

blood rager could be fun

would also make sense

[rustic cape]

Angel has, fwiw, a very good mythic path and is mechanically tilted towards Oracle or Cleric.

[fast hill]

ic ic

[warped orbit]

Demon also gets a special Rage, which IIRC does interact with Bloodrager and Barb Rage

[fast hill]

demon is also good content wise?

[rustic cape]

Remember to do Primalist Bloodrager >_>

[warped orbit]

don't know much about it

[rustic cape]

Nor I. You get to be Very Evil.

[wraith snow]

Yeah, it is a little comical on the edge in places but it has a lot more player agency than most of the others

You MUST be very evil, but you get to pick how to portray it at least

[warped orbit]

I've only done Angel myself so far

though I know a bit about the other routes

[fast hill]

demon sounds fun

[wraith snow]

I do wish Trickster was a little less uhhh

Written the way it is

[warped orbit]

Angel did honestly surprise me with how good it was

also didn't do it myself, but Angel Cleric or Oracle is incredibly powerful too

Oracle especially can make a great gish too

[wraith snow]

I was looking at starting a run for Angel using Inquisitor, seems like it might be fun

[rustic cape]

Storyline-wise it goes really nicely with a bunch of companion storylines, as well, and especially with Arue's romance.

[wraith snow]

I've started a lot of save files but my character that actually got to the end was a Order of the Paw Halfling Cavalier

And yeah, Angel is imo the 2nd best match for Arue

[fast hill]

evil playthrough as my first might be crazy

[fast hill]

which is the best?

I know Arue is like, the most loved romance option

[warped orbit]

Arue is really nice

[wraith snow]

Desna-worshipping Azata

[fast hill]

desna specifically?

[wraith snow]

Yes

[fast hill]

ic

[warped orbit]

Aru is also a Desna follower

[wraith snow]

The Azata path demands you interact with her church, and Arue has special dialogue

[rustic cape]

Fair warning, if you do an evil playthrough it goes a very different direction.

[fast hill]

yeah

think I will do paladin angel

and if I ever do a next playthrough

same character, but eeeeevil

[rustic cape]

FWIW you have a very good paladin companion from the start in Seelah.

[fast hill]

I assume that the reformed succubus being caused to relapse by your own action would go very differently from the good path

[rustic cape]

Also what difficulty are you intending to play on?

[fast hill]

core

I know my 1e a decent amount

[rustic cape]

So, WotR on core and above can be pretty hard.

[warped orbit]

Core will definitely require at least a decent grasp on charop and tactics

[rustic cape]

Especially early game.

[fast hill]

yeah

I did a bit of wotr before

I got to just after the uhhhh

||inn attack||

on core

it was difficult but a rewarding difficulty

played a cavalier

[rustic cape]

Mounts are strong.

Personally, I do suggest oracle for angel, but paladin will be perfectly fine.

[fast hill]

mmm oracle could be fun

thematically cool too

[rustic cape]

I've been thinking of doing an Unfair replay, personally, probably doing Oracle Angel again because I Know What I Like.

[fast hill]

but that aasimar paladin portrait ROCKS

[rustic cape]

You can use the portrait with an oracle :P

[fast hill]

I've also been eyeing aldori duelist

or defender or w/e it's called

defender

[warped orbit]

you can do a pretty good Paladin impression as Battle Oracle

also merged spellbook is just absolutely hilariously strong

[rustic cape]

Also there's a mythic ability that gives you a second mystery.

Nature/Battle is the orthodox pick and is uh. Strong!

[warped orbit]

yeah I can imagine getting to gish and also having a companion would be

[fast hill]

battle could be neat then yeah

[rustic cape]

Even without battle, oracle is a great gish.

Waves can be pretty good.

[warped orbit]

which for the record
merged spellbook lets you combine your normal levels and Mythic for caster level
and also lets you prepare mythic spells with your regular slots

[rustic cape]

Ice Armor + eventually getting that one high-level waves defensive spell is quite a combo.

The one that gives you heavy cover.

[fast hill]

Think I'm just gonna go pally

[rustic cape]

Tragic how there's no skald or bard companions (||except ghost galfrey||)

[surreal basin]

Oh lich you silly option

[surreal basin]

Tbh bard MC fucks tho

I played an azata bard and it was great

[rustic cape]

It really feels like Azata should be able to merge spellbooks with bard and skald >_>

[fast hill]

I love commander!!!!! I love lore skills!!!!!

I took like half of my initial skill increases in lore skills

[tribal steeple]

Knower of Things

[rustic cape]

Dandy getting Lore: Everything is wild.

[surreal basin]

It doesn’t go above expert iirc but yeah it’s funny

[wraith snow]

I'm using that for my witch currently

it's fun

[fast hill]

just retrailed group coercion into fey lore

retrained

session is over now though

so I've started my wotr playthrough!

first dialogue option I fumble my evil playthrough

cant even make them pay me before I work for them

[tribal steeple]

additional lore is so amazing if you've got a good idea of what is relevant t your situation

[wraith snow]

I went through Stolen Fates with a ton of very relevant lores on a Rogue with a lot of the recall class feats

it felt really, REALLY good when it worked

Plus Ranger Dedication for some of the Monster Hunter feats

[woeful pecan]

Magus, yeah. Twisting Tree specifically. And since it's entirely first-timers (including some kids), we're not doing free archetype

[rustic cape]

Aha.

Yeah, in that case I'd be hesitant to do dedication stuff unless it's really high impact ... but you also don't want to optimize too much with first-timers, so.

[woeful pecan]

I'm also just hoping the party as a whole actually works in practice... I know Pathfinder can be pretty deadly, and a diverse group is the easiest way to mitigate that

We don't have anyone in heavy armor. The only confirmed frontliner besides me is the Summoner's plant eidolon

[rustic cape]

Sentinel would track, then, if you have the free feats for it.

[echo briar]

Why is sf2 stuff on nethys a completely different website?

Like, you can go between PF1, 2, and SF1 with a click, but you will need to go elsewhere for SF2

[heavy fulcrum]

prd and srd are already seperate sites

they just havent fixed the UI to include the button for SF2

aonprd.com, 2e.aonprd.com, aonsrd.com, 2e.aonsrd.com

[wraith snow]

For what it's worth, I've played in parties like this before and have found it completely workable in most situations

Fights do get dangerous at times but enough pre-buffs, defensive spells, and healing can mitigate a lot

[rustic cape]

Magus can have great defenses if it wants.

[wraith snow]

For example, the Kingmaker game I'm in has basically 0 frontliners

but we've made it work, for the most part

Closest 2 things to a frontliner are a Kineticist with decent bulk but no real desire to be in melee range aside from competent athletics and a shortbow-wielding Exemplar

[rapid wagon]

The benefit of heavy armor guys is mostly passively being ready. With a bit of elbow grease and preparation, you can generally cover the difference

[wraith snow]

that isn't to say having no dedicated frontline is ideal but it can definitely be overcome with a careful playstyle imo

Though having literal children at the table might make that a bit of a high bar to reach

[rapid wagon]

i do think having literal children also is a reasonable inclination to reduce difficulty and focus on narrative and feeling cool

[wraith snow]

Also true

[woeful pecan]

Alright final party is looking to be:

• Twisting Tree Magus
• Plant Summoner
• Demonic Sorcerer
• Thief Rogue
• Guardian

[turbid dagger]

That looks extremely solid
Especially if the sorceror is a good boy and signatures heal

[woeful pecan]

Oh he will

He's my little shit of a 13 y/o brother and astonishingly he said he wanted to be a support caster

So I directed him towards sorc since it seems the simplest, and of the Divine options he chose Demonic

[frank crystal]

Chatroom, how does possessing possessed objects work?

[true delta]

Just have them on your persun, duh /jk

[rustic cape]

Started playing WotR again. Started the run on unfair. Rapidly realized just how little fun I was having.

Moved it to Hard.

Still found the numbers just sorta excessive.

Down to Core. Much easier, yes, but I'm actually enjoying it!

[trim bluff]

i saw like, a beginners guide to the game, and it included a quick showcase of difficulties, and yeah unfair seems like it really lives up to the name

[rustic cape]

Early game you can basically assume any hit will down someone.

[trim bluff]

as demonstration they chose this random relatively early game boss
if i remember correctly, on normal, the boss had like, 27 ac, 12 touch, 20-30 in all saves, and spawned with 4 ghouls
on unfair, the boss spawns with 6 ghouls and 2 huntmasters, and has like, 43 ac, 28 touch, and like a 40 in all saves

like it was insane, i had no clue the difference would be that immense

[rustic cape]

WotR already has pretty high raw numbers.

[surreal basin]

yeah core+ is a challenge run

[rustic cape]

I did core on my first playthrough and had a good time!

But unfair feels like ... I dunno, pointlessly mean?

It's difficult but not in a way that seems interesting.

So, unfair, I guess.

[surreal basin]

Yeah :3

[craggy thunder]

man

I want to make a Shirren in starfinder

for totally not silksong shaped reasons

[trim bluff]

i took the acolyte background so i can use wisdom for persuasion checks, do yall think i could dump charisma to bump up intelligence a little?

very enticing

[turbid dagger]

Yeah if you're using another stat for charisma skills you can dump cha as much as you possibly can

[rustic cape]

Remember that in 1e there's good reason to start with an odd number in your primary ability score.

[trim bluff]

wait, whys that

oh, is it because ability score increases only increase by 1

ill keep that in mind for future playthroughs but its a bit late now, should be fine though, im playing on normal

[sturdy lagoon]

it's also that ability score costs at character creation aren't linear

a 14 or 16 costs unexpectedly more than a 13 or 15

[light gyro]

hoh....
https://old.reddit.com/r/FoundryVTT/comments/1n89r79/module_release_pf2e_visioner_ultimate_visibility/

[rustic cape]

And you get 5 of them total, yeah.

[echo briar]

Idea to make hindering armor more usable, instead of the movement penalty, it takes 2 actions to stand up from prone.

[limber comet]

The furries (me) are eating

[woeful pecan]

Oh no 2e Kineticist looks REALLY cool

[finite sequoia]

Yeah it's only issues are Gate Attenuators not matching Martial Item Progression in terms of levels, overabundance of reflex saves and a lack of high skill values due to Con scaling

[light gyro]

However: fire punch

[warped orbit]

Attenuator isn't that big a deal IME, just because your blasts are mostly just filler anyway

[finite sequoia]

What's ya'll's fave Dual Gate combos? I'm partial to Metal/Air cuz the vibe is cool

[wraith snow]

The Steam Knight feats for Fire/Water seem very cool to me, I've tried them in a oneshot and had a blast

[warped orbit]

I played a Wood/Earth Kineticist for a while, and did quite enjoy that

Water/Wood also seems pretty good

[wraith snow]

There's a Water/Wood Kinet in one of the parties I'm in atm and at least at low level they're really, really good

They're the party healer and the tank rolled up in one

[warped orbit]

yeah

you get all the good healing impulses, Timber Sentinel, and also still good AoE options from Water

[wraith snow]

In this case the main limiting factor for them is that they're on a tiny ancestry so they have issues using melee abilities, both their touch-range attacks and anything to do with Athletics

[tribal steeple]

Currently using a metal/wood anadi kineticist, it's kinda dope

Cheating at crafting roleplay by virtue of

• spontaneously generating raw materials
• sculpting those materials like craftsmen wish they could

[rustic cape]

Earth/Air gets a lot of extremely cool stuff.

[wary yoke]

Are there any significant templates/adjustments to keep in mind if I wanted to adjust something's size?

I'm used to 1E where there were giant/young basic templates you could slap on something

[light gyro]

You could use elite/weak templates for a start, they nudge CR either way.

[finite sequoia]

Desert Wind fucks supremely

[rustic cape]

It’s absurdly strong.

[wary yoke]

I'm thinking how to do ||an encounter with a bunch of crabs for the first encounter, with one big crab and the rest normal sized|| (spoilered because players are on server)

[light gyro]

||familiarise yourself with Troops if you want something more involved in representing a swarm!||

[wary yoke]

I wasnt going to go with troops yet, just ||Giant Crabs||

||Grab people and pull them into the surf, put the fear of the sea in 'em||

[rustic cape]

something something ||attack the weakpoints for massive damage||

something something ||that damn crab||

[wraith snow]

Weakness 20 to an obscure damage type of your choice /s

[rustic cape]

Xeno's players don't look at my esoteric reference. ||https://web.archive.org/web/20210526140911/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a||

[wary yoke]

That is exactly what I am referencing, lol

[rustic cape]

XD

[woeful pecan]

Build overanalysis my beloathed

Still can't decide if or when to take Wizard archetype on this Magus for more slots

[finite sequoia]

Investigator is really cool on Magus for Devise Strategem on attacks as another option

[woeful pecan]

I did catch that, though with this character I'm wanting to lean more into the arcane element

[finite sequoia]

Then yeah in that case either Wizard or maybe Witchwarper if the GM is okay with that. Wizard prob better

What subclass?

[woeful pecan]

Twisting Tree

[finite sequoia]

Then yeah Wizard fucks with that I would expect

[woeful pecan]

Group also features a Demonic Sorcerer, Plant Summoner, Guardian, Thief Rogue, and an unknown

I've talked about this character before, but early feat progression is looking like

2: ???
4: Student of the Staff
6: Reactive Strike
8: ???
10: Lunging Spellstrike?

[finite sequoia]

Free Archetype?

[woeful pecan]

2 and 8 have options, but I'm not sure what to go for.

At 2, Force Fang for another focus point, a Familiar, Wizard Dedication, or Spell Parry are the standouts currently

8 has Standby Spell, Spell Swipe, and could be a point to take another archetype feat

[woeful pecan]

We're not using it, this is a table of new players and literal children (my younger siblings)

[finite sequoia]

Oh wait Witch Archetype works well as another option! Arcane spell list plus Familiar

[woeful pecan]

I remember in 1e, Witch familiars were a huge liability (if they die, your spells are gone). Where's that at in 2e?

[finite sequoia]

Doesn't seem to be a thing

From me skimming just now

[woeful pecan]

That's good at least

But yeah the main dilemma right now is really just when to take the feats. 4 and 6 at the very least are non-negotiable, and vital to the build. I'm not sure how helpful others might be though

[wraith snow]

Familiars are needed to learn and prepare spells, but they come back after long rest if killed

So realistically you'll never be put in a position where you can't prepare a new list

[wraith snow]

For what it's worth, I'm personally a fan of Wizard archetype for Magus. Even if you aren't neccesarily getting more value for your main gimmick having utility slots helps feel a lot more like a real caster and not a sparkly martial

[rustic cape]

FWIW, you'd be getting utility magic more than offense magic, since cantrips are generally the best bet for spellstrike itself. That's not bad but in a game without free archetype I'd skip it.

Unrelated, wotr: hmmm, this seems like a good setup for an oracle

[woeful pecan]

Utility magic and more copies of Sure Strike is largely what I'd be using, yeah

[trim bluff]

wrath of the righteous, trying to fight the water elemental, this fight is pissing me off for one reason: the game does not indicate attack ranges at all

i have a strategy developed, lure it continually to stop any full round attacks and hit it with ranged guys while blocking off any route to them with my cold-resistant high-ac monk, but the problem is that it keeps just barely catching my ranged guys in its attack area
the game is supposed to indicate that you're gonna move out of an enemy's threatened area by marking that section of movement in red, but apparently if you're right at the edge of the attack range (which i just cannot keep my ranged guys out of somehow) then it just doesnt do that

this fight would probably be a fun challenge if it wasnt for the game asking me to eyeball whatever it thinks "6 feet" is

[rustic cape]

What I’ve found works well is drawing aggro with one character and then putting everyone else on the opposite side of the elemental

That way even melees are safe from the big kaboom around whoever gets targeted

[woeful pecan]

Final party update:

• Guardian
• Demonic Sorcerer
• Plant Summoner
• Thief Rogue
• Twisting Tree Magus
• Witch (idk what patron but they have the occult list)

[small meteor]

https://tenor.com/view/witch-montypython-holygrail-shesawitch-gif-18421113243521844256

[woeful pecan]

Now I'm just questioning how much Recall Knowledge to build into

[keen raptor]

It's a useful and often neglected action

[woeful pecan]

Plus Magus's Analysis looks real tasty

Free Spellstrike recharge if I succeed on the roll? AND I get a bonus if I whacked them? Good shit

[warped orbit]

Magus Analysis is weird

because you introduce a point of failure into your recharge

[woeful pecan]

Magus is already the gambling class it's fine

Besides, I'm not really sure what other level 2 feat to take

[warped orbit]

Force Fang (for the extra focus point mostly)

or just take an archetype

[woeful pecan]

That's looking like what it'll come down to

I'm leaning towards Force Fang just because any archetypes I'd take would crowd into others' flavor a bit

Like this is already a caster-heavy party, I probably don't need to augment that side of my class. And Sentinel is a little too Guardian-y imo

[rustic cape]

Dang, that’s a rock-solid lineup

[woeful pecan]

Right?

Like we've got all the traditions, a skill monkey, various flavors of frontliner, all sorts

Also: skill feat suggestions?

[tribal steeple]

Additional Lore: topic that you expect to be relevant
:)

[woeful pecan]

I've already got one of the more relevant ones

Hermit background in a desert campaign

Oh absolutely picking up Titan Wrestler at some point

[tribal steeple]

Only necessary if you're grappling Huge enemies.

[warped orbit]

what skills are you using?

[tribal steeple]

Magus, so INT skills at least. Snag Recognize Spell for an occasional +1 to spell saves.

Our wizard has recently gone hard into counterspelling and that was a prerequisite.

Not that a Magus is ever going to be counterspelling.

[woeful pecan]

Yeah primarily int skills and Athletics

[woeful pecan]

I'd be taking it more for tripping, given my subclass

[tribal steeple]

Athletics feats are big enablers like powerful leap

It's more good on monk due to their speed boost but being able to move distances while ignoring gaps or terrain is neat

[woeful pecan]

Think I may have figured out a lore justification for taking Psychic archetype

Was already going with Hermit as the background, so maybe it's just some "attained enlightenment after wandering the desert for 200 years" kinda thing

The question now is, do I:

• Take Reactive Strike or
• Get Imaginary Weapon two levels earlier, and then basic spellcasting at 8

[finite sequoia]

Does Psychic Dedication not let you take a unique cantrip as part of the feat?

Oh wait it doesnt. Psychic is kinda feat intensive it looks like.

Since your game isnt Free Archetype maybe go with something less so

[warped orbit]

Get Imaginary Weapon

[wraith snow]

My Kingmaker game hit level 16, finally nearly done

[light gyro]

you make the king yet?

[wraith snow]

We've had one of the PCs as an acting queen for most of the campaign

[woeful pecan]

I mean, the dedication DOES give me another focus point. And I'd probably just take Force Fang otherwise

[finite sequoia]

True. Getting to 3 focus points is real good for a Magus

[woeful pecan]

Unfortunately most conflux spells aren't all that good, outside of the subclass ones

[finite sequoia]

Most (all?) are strikes too which come with MAP issues

[turbid dagger]

The strike confluxes are mostly to enforce Paizo's envisioned loop for Magus where you usually only spellstrike every other turn

[warped orbit]

it is very funny to me how everyone tries their best to ignore that and just Spellstrike every turn

and it's fairly easy to do too

just be Starlit Span or get a mount

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, in the end spellstriking every turn is possible so people will try to ensure it always occurs
It's the nature of the human brain

[rapid wagon]

Aren't there benefits for being in your like post spell strike stance thing?

[warped orbit]

yes kind of

but Cascade overall isn't really that good

[turbid dagger]

Yeah
It varies by subclass but typically it's an afterthought not a priority

[warped orbit]

if you play Starlit Span, it does almost nothing for you

[turbid dagger]

Meanwhile for Sparkling Targe, Laughing Shadow, and Aloof Firmament, it becomes much more appealing to actually Make Space for it in your turns

[warped orbit]

Targe cares about it a lot, yeah

Shadow kind of if you actually use onehanded

[woeful pecan]

Twisting Tree likes it too, if more subtly. Reach is a game-changing trait to add, though I'd probably use a one action cantrip to trigger the stance on turn 1

[turbid dagger]

Twisting Tree's staff-enhancement isn't limited to arcane cascade

Just the hot-swap between 'modes'

The bit about additional traits is before the arcane cascade text