Pathfinder

[light gyro]

also presumably anti killing democratically elected leaders

[sturdy lagoon]

no time to be racist, you got to kill people

[rustic cape]

All are equal before death … except people with supreme executive power.

It comes from a mandate from the masses.

[warped orbit]

it's the same way Achaekek does not kill other gods, only people trying to become gods

[light gyro]

is there any faction/organisation about killing gods they see as unjust, or is that just, kinda all religions in-setting implicitly

[clever cobalt]

Don't believe so

closest is the Red Mantis, as previously described

[light gyro]

yeah, fair enough. although i should probably check out the war of immortals lore anyway. was toying with the idea of a 'good/heroic' (but creepy) mantis assassin

[warped orbit]

The Laws of Mortality don't like the gods, but actually killing them isn't really something most people can do

[clever cobalt]

yeah

Gods in Golarion are very powerful

effectively only Gods can kill other Gods

most of the time at leastg

[frozen flame]

There's an Exemplar feat for wanting to do so

Actually doing so (at level 1, when you can take it) is, uh

Not advised!

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7157

[light gyro]

woah this feat is kinda ass beyond like fifth level

[wraith snow]

Damn, someone else showed up to the function with the same character concept as me

Not a huge deal, but I am kinda bummed about not getting to play the build I had planned out

[rustic cape]

The Starstone Trials are in fact a farcical aquatic ceremony.

[trail nova]

And is neighbors with Quadira (though it's a notably strained relationship. Still, there's enough trade that tea could easily get through)

[tribal steeple]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1343727357181038725/1405674264086188072/190848C5-581D-4C42-AF3C-762B3089D7CD.mov?ex=68a59e6c&is=68a44cec&hm=a58ab05dd7989b4ca02f1d6d39f1087e25150191b38a5645fa7d147a3b7e80a0&
The Magus of our Strength of Thousands game is completing his own pilgimage along the well-trod paths of all Magi

[eager mountain]

my friend autumn would have something to say about this

[tribal steeple]

This player in particular is very much a "rolling high on a d20 is itself fun" kind of person, regardless of if that roll has any significant consequence. I'm fairly certain he does not firmly grasp the idea of weighting in favor of success by properly stacking bonuses/penalties, as he frequently tries to just raw dog his Spellstrike and gets disappointed when it whiffs.

Not to mention choosing polearm minotaur magus almost certainly because those are all "blue" options available in several magus guides, and approaching combat as "I will be the big beefy striker tank" and painfully finding out that Magus is in fact NOT a striker tank of any sort. He eats lots of attacks and crits on the regular.

[light gyro]

something i noticed real quick gming for a magus is that they are made of wet tissue paper. unless they had mirror image up.

[eager mountain]

idk autumn's poppet magus is pretty good at taking a hit IIRC

[tribal steeple]

I had GREAT success with my PF1e magus and mirror image. That was a different time though.

[warped orbit]

They have normal AC, 8 HP

[wraith snow]

I've definitely seen a Magus work okay as a frontliner before, provided they aren't the only one in there

[craggy thunder]

My first character was a skeleton magus in a party with no real tank and she was fine

it was Abom Vaults

So negative healing wasn't hard to come across

[warped orbit]

A Magus is the same niche of toughness as a Rogue or Swash

Which is fine

[tribal steeple]

Sure. And then when you park a Large size magus directly at the forefront of attention-grabbing, the magus eats all the attacks himself.

[warped orbit]

I mean yeah, most characters can't stand up to continued focus

[trim bluff]

thinking about getting pathfinder: wrath of the righteous soon, i noticed it has a lot of dlcs, including multiple free ones, are any recommended for a first playthrough? or would they create too much confusion for a first playthrough?

[wraith snow]

Last of the Sarkorians and Midnight Islands integrate into the main campaign and are fine for a first campaign, in particular I really feel like Last of the Sarkorians is just cut content

[warped orbit]

most of them integrate just fine

and a lot of the others are separate from the campaign

[wraith snow]

Though I will say some of them spoil the plot for the main game even if they can be played standalone

[warped orbit]

oh yeah, don't play the Excess one separate

[wraith snow]

So if you care about having full context and avoiding as many spoilers as possible I'd avoid any that aren't part of the main story

[turbid dagger]

Swash is actually a frontliner ala fighter but yea

[wraith snow]

Both are D8 HP

[turbid dagger]

Oh wait this is a 1e moment isn't it

[wraith snow]

Sure is

[turbid dagger]

To be fair Ryan made no indication whether it was 1e or 2e
And while magus is 8 hp per level in both swash is 10 in 2e

[wraith snow]

ah, my mistake then, I was referring to 2e as well

I know in 1e Swash is very different though, basically an entirely different class

[rustic cape]

They get accelerated armor progression over most martial, fwiw.

I’d also give them a potential edge via defensive spells.

The big hole in magus, which is best solved via party support, is reactive strike.

But any divine, occult, or arcane caster can eventually solve that.

[carmine oyster]

Isn't the only difference that they get mastery at 17 while a few martials have it delayed until 19?

[rustic cape]

They get expert and mastery early compared to everyone but fighter Double checked: fighter, magus, and commander get expert and master early. Ranger and thaum get expert early.

[rustic cape]

Season of Ghosts update: met the tea leaf vendor.

[light gyro]

our poor investigator has rolled nothing but 7s and 8s for strategems today

[surreal basin]

At least these days they may be sacrificed on the altar of skill stratagem

[warped orbit]

I know that feel

[tribal steeple]

that's lovely

[tribal steeple]

Cornucopia focus spell putting in work today. (1d6+4)x3 but rolling max each time. Mmm, love some free 30 HP for the party.

[toxic slate]

So, I've been working on a Homebrew class for PF2E, and I'm a little stuck; I used to go to Giant in the Playground for that kind of thing, but that whole place seems to have gone mostly dead.

Which is an especial issue, since it's meant to be a conversion of a 3.5e class posted by somebody else on those forums, and I can't even get ahold of them to ask permission.

But at the very least, I'm hoping I can find a second opinion on some of what I've already got.

[eager mountain]

https://bsky.app/profile/ostentatiouscorvid.bsky.social/post/3lwwrxzjqtk2u

Raven of the Fountains (@ostentatiouscorvid.bsky.social)

Okay, not posting shots, but here's a partial list of the curses in #Starfinder #GMCore:
Nondisclosure Agreement
Eternal Fizziness
Social Media Addiction
Microtransaction Hell
Trust Exercise
Hitbox Hex
Bullet Magnet
I love this setting.

Bluesky · Aug 21, 2025, 8:32 PM

[light gyro]

... i had to read that a couple of times to realise they meant 'magical curse' and not 'swear word curse'

[true delta]

Lesbians of the Future

[dapper tusk]

it's so sad that the only druid subclass that can transform into animals in pathfinder is the feral anti-civilization one

turning into animals is always the fun part of being a druid

[limber comet]

You can still take form spells though

It's just that feral is a specialist in it

[dapper tusk]

ah, I misread

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah untamed is just the only one that gets Wild Shape Untamed Form specifically

[warped orbit]

You just get it as a focus spell on Feral

[surreal basin]

What is Feral

[heavy fulcrum]

correct; Untamed Form (feat and spell) and the "[blank] Shape" feats are all Untamed exclusive, except Plant Shape which Leaf Order can also get

[limber comet]

Feral Order

Shapeshifter order

[surreal basin]

… Untamed?

[limber comet]

Untamed?

Oops

I might be stupid

[surreal basin]

Hmmmm

It kinda annoys me sometimes how noncommittal the anathemas are

“Don’t do this, unless it would ever put you in any kind of danger in which case feel free” well okay

It kinda feels like nothing then

[limber comet]

Tbf that's mostly to prevent "okay but i have to fight this obviously way too strong boss right now, my anathema says so"

It's pretty easy to just handwave away

[surreal basin]

No for sure

It’s just I guess I wish they were more impactful sometimes lol

[limber comet]

OH

OH??

OHHHH?

Okay so

Monthly adventures are no longer a thing

We're getting quarterly hardbacks

https://paizo.com/products/btq0dyxh?Pathfinder-Hellbreakers-Adventure-Path

Check it

[surreal basin]

Is that confirmed the new norm?

[limber comet]

Mhm

From 2026 onwards

First one will be in March!

[clever cobalt]

With Hellbreakers yeah

Supposedly it's to help coordinate things behind the scenes better or something

[surreal basin]

I imagine so

Considering that APs being really bad about being super disconnected is like

A genuine issue

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[solar storm]

There’s a number of irl religious restrictions which kinda follow that rule in fairness

[turbid dagger]

Yeahhh
That's not uncommon

[surreal basin]

No for sure

I just think sometimes it clashes

the pollution ones are really weird for Druid also because they have a caveat where you don’t have to fight against potential pollution

Which confuses me

[limber comet]

It's supposed to be like to vague stuff

Like, "x might be polluting y but there is a very real chance it isnt"

[clever cobalt]

Random question, but what are some good places for Mythic stuff in Golarion?

places like Absalom (cause of the Starstone)

[limber comet]

Uh there was like a whole segment in 1e about this

Let me think

Technically anywhere because of the Godsrain

[turbid dagger]

Ibyldos is the classic

[wary yoke]

In the shared setting I work on, I’m the one that spearheads the divinities, I deliberately made anathema sometimes that is not exactly healthy

For the reason that they are all still new gods

I like “don’t be an idiot” caveats, but agree that they do lose something

The first one ascended after he literally worked himself to death to save others, and expects that his followers be willing to do the same if it comes down to it. The second is a very fun god, but there really is no honor among thieves.

[rapid wagon]

question about bards

the composition spell feature says they often require perfomance checks

but like, do they need to make a check and if they fail the spell doesnt happen?

or is it only relevant for some spells?

[warped orbit]

Only for some spells

Maestro has Lingering Composition for example, which does require a check

But unless the spell says it requires one, there is no check

[rapid wagon]

huh

so the composition tag doesn't actually impact the ability to cast spells

[warped orbit]

It does not

[rapid wagon]

but does let you affect the auditory or whatever tags it comes with?

[warped orbit]

The only limitation is that you can only have one Composition spell active at a time

[heavy fulcrum]

it does, yes, you dont always make a performance check but you do have to be capable of using performance

To cast a composition cantrip or focus spell, you use a type of Performance. If the spell requires an auditory performance, you might recite a poem, sing a song, or perform a dramatic monologue. If the spell requires a visual performance, you might dance or pantomime.

i think the main one it matters for is Counter Performance, which has to match the trigger its countering (visual for visual, auditory for auditory)

[rapid wagon]

the bard decides per cast for that requirement?

[warped orbit]

You have to be able to perform yes, though the type of performance doesn't usually matter much

[heavy fulcrum]

basically, yeah

as long as the targets arent immune to whichever you chose, theres no practical difference

[warped orbit]

It could sometimes slightly matter for Counter Performance, if you have bonuses to specific types of Performance

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah

[warped orbit]

Which can happen through skill feats

[heavy fulcrum]

i think the only other ones it matters for are... Song of Marching (Performance instead of Initiative for travelling encounters), Symphony of the Unfettered Heart (Performance to counteract various conditions) and Uplifting Overture (Performance to Aid)

[warped orbit]

Composition also doesn't say your spell actually gains the corresponding trait, or that only creatures who can perceive your performance are affected

[heavy fulcrum]

classic Paizo "its unstated but......."

[turbid dagger]

I've got my filthy paws on Starfinder's GM core, reading lore bits now
It seems
SEEMS
Like dwarf/orc racism did in fact get solved and is now ancient history
The modern orcish cultural myth of Starfinder reveres Torag as a central part of it

Also the plane of metal is getting ruined by capitalism
The genies barely even run the place anymore

[warped orbit]

Lingering Composition and Fortissimo also have you make Performance checks, but I don't think the type of Performance matters there

[heavy fulcrum]

ah, i meant among Composition spells but yeah, a few other Bard spells have Performance checks as part of them

[tribal steeple]

Session over. A PL+2 aquatic boss fight. Wizard throws out Stupefy, crit fail, stupefied 3 for a minute. Sorcerer throws out Synesthesia, crit fail, clumsy 3 for a minute. This big fish had zero idea the amount of torment we were about to dish out.

[turbid dagger]

Reading over the conversion stuff for PF content in Starfinder, it seems broadly fine but I'm kind of annoyed that they seem to be assuming PF classes will mostly show up in the form of people transported from the past and not
People who do what the class describes in the modern day
Like, nothing about a Sorceror is actually 'archaic'
There would still be sorcerors around

[warped orbit]

So what did they even say in the conversion stuff?

[turbid dagger]

It's mostly advice over strict guidelines
'you should consider having your alchemist reflavor their alchemical items to technological gizmos'
This is after the bit about 'consider letting them retrain into another class once they get a taste of more modern technology' which is exactly why that assumption above annoys me
If I'm playing an Alchemist in SF2e it's because I want to play the alchemist class, not because I want to play my Pathfinder alchemist post tragic time warp accident

Here's the class section, and a sidebar relevant to my gripe- the rest of the sections are a fair touch better about this

[novel merlin]

I think that's largely to go along with the point of like "pathfinder stuff is compatible but not an intentional supplement to sf" because if they started writing like sorceror npcs into starfinder then people would expect a stsrfinderized sorceror to be compatible

[turbid dagger]

Well, they've already done that to an extent
The pathfinder races are 100% intended to be a Supplement to Starfinder's own roster
There are elf NPCs in the galaxy guide, Castrovel and Apostae are soggy with them

The Starfinder gods have Cleric spells

[novel merlin]

Ancestries are easier to port because they do fairly little

Like they know it's cross compatible and I'm sure they've done the easy stuff like cleric spells but with entire classes I assume they don't want to have to balance around every pf class existing necessarily

[warped orbit]

Bit more wibbly than I would have liked

[turbid dagger]

Yeahhhh

[novel merlin]

It's definitely a "we don't really want you to do this but we know you're going to, so here's a rough idea of how to do it"

[warped orbit]

Does definitely give me the impression their stance is overall more "we don't really want you to mix, but you technically can"
But I feel they should make that clearer tbh

[turbid dagger]

The tone doubly annoys me because they have some art that's great for showing 'the character archetypes expressed through PF2e's classes can easily exist in Starfinder too'

[novel merlin]

I think they've been fairly clear about it since the early sf2e announcements that it was compatible but not necessary clean and easy and balanced to mix

[warped orbit]

Their ambiguous stance on how much crossover there should be is introducing a lot of confusion I think

[turbid dagger]

Yeah the issue is that they're just sending mixed signals

[turbid dagger]

Like-
That's a Cleric and a Rogue
It's THE Cleric and Rogue
These classes actually do do stuff that is both not well represented by SF's current classes and good to have in the setting

So I would have preferred more of an assist in 'here's what a Starfinder Bard is actually like' instead of 'if you really want too you can flash freeze Valeros and have him thaw out on Absalom Station'

[warped orbit]

Especially with how they said they designed the SF2 classes to not overlap with PF2 classes

So it was pretty unclear on if they still expected people to use Pathfinder classes in Starfinder too or not

"We didn't want to make Soldier just Fighter in space, because Fighter still exists"

[turbid dagger]

I was actually cooking an idea with some friends about a Nephelim Verthani Sorceror
Full of magic juice from generations of God-Vessels in his bloodline
It doesn't seem too hard to do, fortunately, but
Hrmmmmmmgmgmgm

[warped orbit]

Also does that section have anything about using Starfinder content in Pathfinder?

[turbid dagger]

Yes but I haven't read it cuz I don't care about that as much 😔
Though I do think this postulate works the same way, perhaps with a few more exceptions
Mystic and Witchwarper absolutely work in the past, Envoy too
Soldier and Operative have subclasses that work great but as a whole it's a bit dicey

......Okay the advice for backporting is actually better, and goes class by class
I'm gonna kill

[warped orbit]

Lmao

What do they say for Soldier?

[turbid dagger]

Soldier is listed as the toughest one to adapt

[frank crystal]

Chatroom, my players may soon be entering a labyrinthine maze called the labyrinth and I’m kinda want some advice to run it

Just having a map doesn’t seem like it’d fit because this maze is supposed to expand under a whole city

[turbid dagger]

And goes the direction I was going, which is where Close Quarters Soldier is probably your best bet

FUCK do I wish that the Pathfinder classes got this treatment instead of All That up top

[warped orbit]

Glad they do say you should probably give a Soldier area weapons

[plucky snow]

How supernatural is the labyrinth?

[turbid dagger]

I guess there are a lot of PF classes tho

[frank crystal]

It’s not

It’s just large and complicated

[warped orbit]

Numerian Android Soldier, let's goooo

[turbid dagger]

Honestly a humble greataxe seems like a great pick for a soldier

[warped orbit]

I'd probably still take reach, but yeah

A Close Quarter Soldier would still do fine probably

[plucky snow]

You could treat it as essentially a wilderness expedition? Make skill checks to not get lost, look for landmarks or marks left by other explorers

[frank crystal]

I’ve never actually run a wilderness exploration in PF2E

My games tend to be set in urban environments so it never really came up

[turbid dagger]

I do think at the root of it the Pathfinder classes will be perfectly fine for Starfinder games, and vise versa
It's not like, volatile Experimental RPG Play
The only thing that gives me any pause is that Fighter and Gunslinger have some stiff competition with the Operative

Who gets the big prof and also extra damage through Aim
Fighter can probably still keep up tho
It's slinger I truly worry for

Fighter can like
Go ham with a Fangblade or what have you while the Operative is stuck with guns or tiny melees

Triple shot with a Magnetar Rifle, etc

[warped orbit]

Gunslinger, I don't really see why you'd use one over an Operative

[echo briar]

loading support

[warped orbit]

it is also still kinda funny to me
if you put a shortbow into SF2, and made it count as a gun for Operative
it would probably be the weapon of choice for basically every Operative

[clever cobalt]

Or Longbow, on that note

[warped orbit]

the Longbow counts as a Sniper too, as a treat for Sniper Operatives 😛

[echo briar]

The question is, are bows too good, or is everything else too weak?

[warped orbit]

hard to say
could be both too

[echo briar]

Because I’m starting to think the devs purposely made the bows stronger than they think they should have to keep the fantasy of everyone using a bow alive

[warped orbit]

I do think bows also having deadly is a bit excessive maybe
even without that they would probably still be in contention for best ranged weapon

But otherwise its mostly that Reload is a huge restriction, for not that much gain often

[clever cobalt]

Tactical longbow

For SF2E

[astral prawn]

A player I game with keeps saying "Shrug." after suggesting a course of action for another player, I like the guy but I nearly black out in rage every time

[astral prawn]

Also the bard so he talks a lot, for the party too

Over, even

[fast hill]

reminded me of the time i was playing a gunslinger vigilante

everyone kept saying "omg they're like batman" becaue she was rich but also beat up criminals

the difference is that those criminals were always rich bosses who fucked with their workers and she was a ruthless killer and it quickly became "oh no she isn't batman she's corvo attano"

[wary yoke]

Are there any effects that increase the flat check for Concealed?

I know there's whisper elfs that decrease it

I want to know if I'm allowed to be angry at my GM for making a bad environmental rule or Paizo for making a feelbad mechanics

[warped orbit]

I don't think there is, no

To be clear, you mean something that increases the Concealed DC on you when people try to hit you?

Or do you mean things that help you get around Concealed?

[wary yoke]

Things that make the flat check a higher DC

[turbid dagger]

I know of one thing because a dude I play with always hypes it up on his magus
It's a changeling thing I think

[turbid dagger]

Here we go! https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4538

[wary yoke]

We're in a fight where the enemies can spend actions to increase it for a round, they're all some form of fire elemental

[vocal ember]

yeah, there's effects that increase flat check DCs for concealed and hidden. I think there were like, two geniekin lineages that do this as well.

oh yeah, smokesoul and mistsoul

[warped orbit]

this is also a thing that makes carrying a couple scrolls of Revealing Light useful

[wary yoke]

Two filth fires and a handful of fire rats. I fucking hate this.

Everything has concealment, and we're all sickened

[warped orbit]

surprised you are getting affected this much by the 20%

but also yeah, Revealing Light can let you ignore Concealed

there's a few feats for ignoring Concealment too, like Blind Fight
and a few lower level ones for just smoke

[vocal ember]

I think the GM might be Hiding the rats in their smoke or something. because neither of those has an action to increase concealment DC.

[wary yoke]

It's going up and down

It's an environmental thing

That he apparently invented

[trim bluff]

We "infiltrated" a ball by practically begging random businesses around town to allow us to be delivery people for them and eventually got to deliver a band's supplies to the ball
We then spent 30 minutes trying to figure out how to get into the basement without being spotted because we thought it was off-limits before a servant got pissed off at us for being in the way of them moving fresh food to the main area (because we were in the middle of a busy hallway) and guided us into the basement so we'd stop being in the way
Great session

That moment when the party with 3 people who have no utility and 1 utility guy encounters something that the utility guy cant do

[warped orbit]

by how much?

also what level are you guys?

[wary yoke]

Level 7, they were I think taking actions to increase it by 1 for a round

[wary yoke]

Doesn't help that our mystery gunslinger with multiple jezails was actually a Bullet Dancer Monk

So, another frontliner, without a real monk style

[rapid wagon]

Man as a summoner finally got my first two fights. But man I've been getting beat the fuck up

Gotta be more careful with where my eidolon goes

But the class is very fun

[rustic cape]

Today in Kingmaker. We are level 3. We are in a fight with a level 7 werewolf.

https://tenor.com/7xdm.gif

[tribal steeple]

Good luck broski. Remember to use hero points if you have 'em.

[rustic cape]

Nah we had to run away

[tribal steeple]

Oh. I mean that's honestly the most sane thing to do.

PL+4 combat is implicitly a high lethality situation.

[rustic cape]

Which at low levels is notably worse than at mid-to-high.

[tribal steeple]

Yesterday we did a 4v1 PL+2 fight with a loch ness monster wannabe, and the Wizard and I (Sorcerer) immediately landed two crippling debuffs with critically failed saves. The fight went radically better than I ever could have expected it to.

[rustic cape]

Our inventor got lycanthropy and is going to retrain into being werewolf iron man

[light gyro]

I don't was gonna say you're not in a fight, you're in a chase sequence that looks like a fight

[tribal steeple]

Honestly, deciding to run away is the hardest choice of all.

"Enemies are there to be defeated, no I do not care that this is a Horseman of the Apocalypse, I see it has HP therefore we are going to beat it"

[light gyro]

I managed to make my strength of thousands group retreat twice over 20 levels. I think I checked to see if they could have speed to match/exceed the monster before I went to a chase sequence, but in the future I think I'd just skip to the chase sequence really.

[wooden orbit]

Iblydos, depending on where at Tian Xia can work, also Belkzen (assuming the players want to run mythic orcs gunning to take the spot of the recently ascended new Orcish deities) There's a new mythic AP coming out later this year focused on the same regions covered in Rise of the Runelords, Seven Dooms for Sandpoint, Curse of the Crimson Throne

[clever cobalt]

Im asking because we just finished our current arc of our Mythic game, and are deciding where to go next

Razmir got killed and some imprisoned gods broke out

Also Razmiran is basically destroyed

[rustic cape]

The funny thing is we ambushed the werewolf.

Also the inventor caught lycanthropy so

[rapid wagon]

I've thing i do like about kingmaker is how it figures the player instinct of "is there for me to fight. Therefore I must be able to win"

Running away is a valid tactical choice and should happen more in rpgs

[wooden orbit]

At that point you're probably looking at adventuring into the Elemental Planes, Hell, the other planes basically.

[turbid dagger]

Some wild lore developments are coming out of Starfinder GM core 👁️

[warped orbit]

oh?

[turbid dagger]

So I believe I already mentioned that orcs and dwarves have made peace, with Torag being a central figure in orcish myth

But more than that
The Starstone seems to be showing people visions
||Of a ravaged but intact Golarion, Torag and orcs included||

[fast hill]

what are some fun class ideas for a vampire character?

Sorcerer is the obvious choice

but I've also thought Psychic

[fossil dome]

Thaumaturge

[fast hill]

champion could be cool

[fossil dome]

Flavour the esoterica as just, knick knacks he's collected

[wooden orbit]

Oh hell yeah

[fast hill]

no vampire

but I am playing abomination vaults soon!!!!!

thinking of class options rn

we have a sorcerer and two other undecided

[wooden orbit]

I imagine this kind of stuff would also get the orcs stuck under the thumb of the Azrinaran elves amped up. (Revolution campaign on Apostae?)

[turbid dagger]

Apparently, the Azrinaian Orcs don't actually mind a ton, at least come 2e
I assume this is another 'dialing down the slavery' thing
The orcish population came to Apostae as they figured it's harsh conditions were ideal for honing their people's strength in preparation for Ragnarok Golarion's return
Many orcs and other rare ancestries from Golarion eke out an existence on Apostae through tough labor and as corporate muscle. Outsiders often incorrectly assume these orcs are trapped in a type of indentured servitude, but in fact many orcs believe the harsh Apostaean landscape will harden their resolve and prepare them for an eventual ascension to the great battlefield of Lost Golarion, where they’ll stand alongside their kin who disappeared during the Gap.

[fast hill]

might play a thaumaturge for AV

[tribal steeple]

latest stupid pathfinder character idea:

• Awakened Animal, insect, tiny
• Wizard, unified theory
  It's a spelling bee

[wooden orbit]

Not sure how I feel about that x-x

[fast hill]

or investigator

investigator and then ghost hunter archetype could be cool

[turbid dagger]

Yeeeahh, I get why they were compelled to do it and don't think it's the worst thing in the world for them to do, but the Firebrands push to thoroughly scrub all traces of slavery or forced labor from the setting comes across as a bit odd
Not because I Love Slavery Yipee!!! or anything like that, but because it takes a lot of the teeth out of much of the settings antagonistic factions

[wooden orbit]

Not to mention this one feels a little more clumsily handled compared to how they approached Cheliax in PF2E? (If that makes sense) Like it feels like here they just tried to quickly brush it under the rug right as you walk into the room.

And I kinda liked the idea of the Orcs rebelling against the Azrinaran.

[turbid dagger]

Yeahhhhhhh

[rustic cape]

A certain number of remaster decisions strike me as targeted at That Guy when he appears in an organized play environment.

As well as more generally.

[surreal basin]

Hey don’t be mean, megaton strike is good

[vocal ember]

that inventor looks cool

[rustic cape]

And now he can do it unarmed with lycanthrope attacks!

[surreal basin]

Armor inventor I presume?

[rustic cape]

Switching to it now, yeah.

The player’s really excited to rework the character along these lines.

Going from weapon with alchemist stuff to armor with werecreature stuff.

[echo briar]

What’s a good stork replacement for where babies come from?

Ideally something magical

[fast hill]

fuck yes I have it figured out

Orc half elf

[surreal basin]

Psuedodragon

[fast hill]

becoming an adventurer to pay the exorbitant golarion hrt prices

saving on weapons and armour by grabbing a light hammer and hide armour, is there any fun side equipment options people recommend for lvl 1?

[wooden orbit]

That Guy?

[clever cobalt]

problem players

[rustic cape]

Comes in many flavors, but in particular he tends to be Weird about something in a way that’s a yellow flag.

That guy who is oddly fixated on buying a slave, for instance.

Or that guy who doesn’t want anyone to play orcs in the game he’s running and it seems increasingly like it’s because his intention is to be weird about orcs.

That Guy has fixations that make people uncomfortable without exactly crossing a line.

[fast hill]

Assurance with crafting is really good huh

[warped orbit]

sort of

it does let you make things under level fairly reliably

[fast hill]

Yeah I'm realising that it's actually not the greatest

Hmmm

[warped orbit]

generally the way Assurance shakes out is that it reliably lets you make a check that's PL -1 or 2

[surreal basin]

Rueing the day that I realized that assurance removes ur prof

[warped orbit]

it removes your attribute you mean?

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah

[warped orbit]

it's just 10+prof

[fast hill]

Wanting to make a fighter who is also a blacksmith

Unfortunately int just isn't worth sacrificing con for

The artisan background makes up for it a little bit and I can get to a +5

But a 50% chance to succeed at a lvl 1 craft check kinda sucks

50% chance is not that bad actually because u dont lose mats on a regular fail

It would take me 45 DAYS to shave off half the gold of half plate

[warped orbit]

yeah crafting doesn't really save you much money unless you have a lot of time

it's generally more something to get around access than cost more

[fast hill]

Ywah

Thats sad

I understand why

But I want a use for crafting

[surreal basin]

I still think they should’ve just removed crafting since they clearly don’t want it to be good who said that

[rapid wagon]

plenty of tools useful to craft that are under level but not advantageous spcificaly for fighting

[surreal basin]

Man I’m still so mad burn is gone on kinet

To the point I have thought about making a class archetype solely for bring it back

Trying to figure out how to get fane’s fourberie on a magus

[rustic cape]

I'll do you one better https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7723

[fast hill]

oh my god

[rustic cape]

1/day, take a failed check and turn it into an Assurance check +2

[fast hill]

oh my god it's like crafting assurance but better

[rustic cape]

It is exactly that.

[fast hill]

this shit is why I'm an orc half elf

[rustic cape]

Yeah, elf feats are wild.

[fast hill]

human feats are also very good

[rustic cape]

Notably, at level 20 this lets you turn a failed legendary battle medicine into a success 1/day.

And orc!

Orcs, humans, and elves have imo the best three sets of ancestry feats on balance.

[fast hill]

orc feats are very nice yeah

orcish ferocity is really good

for a lvl 1 feat

[rustic cape]

The magic resistance line is great too.

[fast hill]

the warmask?

it's very cool yeah

[rustic cape]

Naw I mean the superstition line

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4528 Hell of a thing

[fast hill]

ahhhhh yeah

[rustic cape]

Humans: get an extra dedication and a whole bunch of extra general feats.
Orcs: get a ton of things that make them harder to put down.
Elves: get mobility, better skill usage, and innate spells.

[light gyro]

Not to respond to a ten hour old post but my most cantankerous RPG opinion is that crafting is always a boring mechanic, and actively detrimental in dungeon-crawler RPGs and their spawn (like pathfinder)

[fast hill]

crafting has a certain fantasy to it

[rustic cape]

"Crafting only matters if you can't find a settlement of appropriate level to buy items/earn income from" is, as compromises go, a pretty reasonable one.

[fast hill]

my main thoughts are that idk how it works in Abomination Vaults

you cant retrain skill increases right?

[light gyro]

Kind of a 'its probably fine' thing, really

[fast hill]

ehhhh I'm a fighter anyway there's no other skills to take

repair is still useful in a dungeon crawl

even though I wont be bringing a shield

[rustic cape]

Acrobatics is the skill I find it hard to do without entirely because of kip up.

[light gyro]

Ough that's a good one...

[rustic cape]

A bunch of acrobatics stuff goes wild at legendary, too.

Nimble Crawl and Slippery Prey are both great with legendary acrobatics.

[errant roost]

I'm a big fan of crafting, but I don't think I've ever seen an RPG do it well

[tribal steeple]

Athletcs is my "how do I live without this" skill.

Acrobatics is silly if you can swing the dedication that gives you auto-scaling Acrobatics

[rustic cape]

Yeah, very nice pickup, but hard to fit on a lot of free archetype builds in particular.

[fast hill]

very tempted to take str/dex instead of str/con

especially as a fighter

[rustic cape]

... okay here's my horrid PF2e build thought of the day: ruffian rogue can technically use bombs with sneak attack.

[fast hill]

it's beautiful

[fast hill]

ig the benefit of str/dex is that I can rock lighter armors

which has the benefit of... 5 feet of movement

[rustic cape]

Which is worth more than you might think.

[fast hill]

and I mean even then I can just have 1 dex and wear chain mail and rock 5 AC with no movement loss

[rustic cape]

Yeah, heavy armor is 6 total though.

On balance, heavy armor gives you better AC without shenanigans, but IMO the big benefit is if you're gonna grab mighty bulwark ASAP, since that lets you dump dexterity.

[fast hill]

yeah I'm just wondering if 5 feet of movement is worth 1 AC

[rustic cape]

Often.

But it can depend.

Fighters having sudden charge can be really good.

[fast hill]

yeah sudden charge is really nice

[rustic cape]

Unrelated: while bouncy goblin + unbreakabler goblin is amusing, I think unbreakabler goblin without bouncy goblin is funnier, since they can just fall flat on their face, completely unharmed.

[small meteor]

Damnit, now we're thinking about Bǎihé again and like.. Does Intimidation fit as as a gameplan? Her usual gameplan is smack person hard with glaive, with a side of pole vaulting like a mad woman. And with Staff Acrobat, she wants to do things like trip and shove enemies..

[rustic cape]

Intimidation is often a solid pickup on a character who will have actions free on occasion.

[small meteor]

Hm. I suppose the question then is, is Invigorating Fear worth not being an Aiuvarin? Because canonically she is an aiuvarin, but.. She was designed as an Intimidation fighter so we picked Dark Fields for her. She is now a Staff Acrobat Exemplar.

[wraith snow]

I realize this is very much me complaining about needing to lay in the bed I've made, but MAN one of my current characters is uhhhh

Not very good

It's a homebrew campaign so the GM has freedom to match what the players are up to, it's just kind of awkward because half the party is focused on optimized gameplay and the other half are very much playing flavour-first build concepts

[tribal steeple]

Tale as old as time. Gotta have a talk and try to reconcile the differences, people either changing their setups or the GM deliberately accounting for it and tailoring activities.

[small meteor]

Amswer: We don't really gain anything we want (and are willing to sacrifice the already-present feat) from it.

Amelia | System at 63 ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161695831775248426 message) Hm. I suppose the question then is, is Invigorating Fear worth not being an Aiuvarin? Because canoni…

[wraith snow]

Yeah, for me it's just a bit awkward because the flavour of the character I'm playing does more or less demand what I'm doing currently

So even if I were to change my build to be mechanically better it would still be disatisfying just for different reasons

[echo briar]

Rubbing kit and brass ear

Both have saved me so many times

[rustic cape]

God, why is this a feat that elves get? https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7662

That's really strong!

Just one more on the pile of "elves best feats"

[novel merlin]

It's from an AP

It's also level 13

[rustic cape]

Yeah, by that point you might even have run out of all the other really good feats elves get :P

This isn't a complaint, tbc.

Like is this over powered compared with just ... nimble elf? Probably not.

It's just amusing to me.

[clever cobalt]

I dont care what Paizo does i will continue to play Fleshwarp and Furry Ancestries

[rustic cape]

Awakened animal is also a phenom.

Elves just get a lot of “good on any build” stuff.

[surreal basin]

Well they sure aren’t called orcgames

[echo briar]

If elves had a cha or int penalty instead con, they might be the best ancestry in the game

they are almost forced to take the +free +free

[wary yoke]

I have realized that playing a human with Clever Improviser has skewed how I think other people's skills are

Also have cooperative nature, so I can help literally everyone

[echo briar]

Same with being a rogue lol

When its much easier to tell the party which skills you aren't trained in

[fast hill]

is fortress/bastion plate worth the AC penalty?

ig it doesn't matter too much as a fighter, where you can play pretty reactive and aren't likely to get KOd first turn

[warped orbit]

The one that gives the initiative penalty is fine I think

The one with the move speed is really rough IMO

[echo briar]

There is no AC penalty on bastion plate ever

[warped orbit]

Which is unfortunate, because its the melee one IIRC

[echo briar]

and the fortress plate only has it if you lack the str

[warped orbit]

Ultimately I don't find either of them super useful, because it's basically just parry without needing a hand

[echo briar]

if you have the str, fortress is pretty good.

[warped orbit]

Well it's still -1 initiative, but that's not as big a deal

[echo briar]

-1 ac is a minor penalty, but when your up against ranged enemies hands free parry is decent

[warped orbit]

Fortress is okay

It's a situational benefit for a small cost

Bastion is pretty bad, because its an extra 5 ft speed penalty you can't avoid

Works okay if you're mounted I guess

And you also still need spare actions to actually use Entrench

[fast hill]

sorry I meant initiative penalty

not AC penalty

whoopsies!!!!!

I was thinking of taking fortress plate

[echo briar]

most melee characters tend to actually want to go later in initiative in my experience.

[fast hill]

really?

[echo briar]

the first melee character to go needs to spend more actions to move into position.

[fast hill]

that's true

I dont have sudden charge so going first is probably going to hurt my action eco

atleast al ittle bit

[echo briar]

and will almost never have the ability to flank

[fast hill]

maybe I do just take fortress plate then

[echo briar]

my rogue in particular almost always delays unless I was able to roll stealth for initiative

[warped orbit]

Fighter also has really high initiative usually tbh

So a -1 isn't that big a deal

Their perception prof is very good, and they get an extra bonus

[fast hill]

mhm mhm

buckler counts my hand as free for the sake of stuff like snagging strike right?

[warped orbit]

Yes

[fast hill]

awesome

[warped orbit]

Unless you actively Raise it

[fast hill]

yee

[warped orbit]

You can also consider a gauntlet bow as an offhand

It's a gauntlet with parry, that can also shoot if needed

Can't block, but bucklers block like crap anyway

[echo briar]

wait, if I punch someone with the gauntlet bow, it still uses the crossbow crit spec right?

it never stops being a crossbow

[warped orbit]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

It's not very clear

[echo briar]

its the best gunslinger melee option then, as it has full proficiency

[warped orbit]

Well you can also do that with combination weapons now

But gauntlet bows are very useful for Slinger yes

If nothing else it always gives you a Fake Out option

[rustic cape]

Are Rogue, Exemplar, and Alchemist the only classes that get to improve the range of thrown weapons?

[wraith snow]

Ranger has Farshot, I feel like Fighter might have one too but I'm blanking on it

Changelings have an ancestry feat for it, apparently

[rustic cape]

Unrelated: I love that a literal reading of this lets you be an anarchist.

Enforce proper hierarchies (none), topple illegitimate hierarchies (all), lead when you're most suited to the task (and at no other time)

[wraith snow]

Ah, found the fighter thing I was thinking of

No direct extension, but Rebounding Toss lets you make an additional attack without MAP at someone within 10ft of the original target regardless of your position

[rustic cape]

Gotcha

Tragically incompatible with dual weapon throwing, but very good stuff.

[fast hill]

looking at aldori duelist and fuck I wanna play it now

[rustic cape]

Hey pnet, I'm playing around with a bomb-throwing barbarian build, and I've got a free spot for a multiclass archetype from Multitalented. I have to take exactly 2 other feats from it, one at 10 and one at 12. Does anything stand out? Currently I'm looking at obedience champion just for the reaction damage.

[fast hill]

buckler seems like mostly a way to get that 1 AC bonus

since it seems like blocking with it is a great way to immediately break it

[fast hill]

our GM is very worried about our partys healing situation

we have 1 person with medicine at +5 and no healers toolkit save for the healing plaster cantrip on our draconic sorcerer

but if I'm not mistaken beyond healing with medicine out of combat and heal spell in combat there's no real healing options other than that right?

at level 1

potions are sorta out of the question

[tribal steeple]

They should really have a healer's toolkit as that's required for basically everything medicine

[fast hill]

problem is the person with healing is our gunslinger

and guns are expensive

[tribal steeple]

That's not really an excuse to not have a healer's toolkit, if they're the one who's responsible for party healing. If nothing else, have someone else pay for one.

[light gyro]

if the party wants the gunslinger to be the dedicated healer, they pony up funds.

[fast hill]

we could maybe all pitch in our extra leftover gold for a healers kit

yeah

the problem is we have no one else to be a dedicated healer

[tribal steeple]

Focus spell healing is awesome but you didn't list anyone having that.

[fast hill]

we have a sorcerer, fighter, magus and gunslinger

[tribal steeple]

Fortunately for you, nonmagical Medicine check healing is great assuming you're being given the time to make those skill checks.

[fast hill]

yeah

we have the sorcerer able to basically use a cantrip to get us a healers toolkit

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=925

this is very neat

it has the downside of not being usable if either the caster or slinger goes down

but we can figure smthn else out

[wraith snow]

There are some class specific options that aren't either of those things but it seems like people have character concepts locked in

[fast hill]

yeah we mostly have our concepts locked in

I think we'll be fine

we just spend our first battle's paycheck on a healer's toolkit

did I mention it's abomination vaults

[wraith snow]

Kineticist's Oceans Balm comes to mind, same for Exemplar's The Radiant

If nobody is has access to healing spells I would definitely heavily suggest Medic as an archetype

[fast hill]

Sorcerer has access to healing spells iirc primal has em

But yeah

[wraith snow]

Ah, yeah, if they're using the Primal list then they can just signature Heal and be over it

[tribal steeple]

My current Kineticist has a druid dedication for Conucopia and it works great to supplement healing.

[eager mountain]

neat

[eager mountain]

I just incorporate it into my backstory

so ive already transitioned

[paper inlet]

Can I ask a more aesthetic question regarding a pathfinder character here?

[warped orbit]

sure

[paper inlet]

So I have
This tiefling here

She has reached level 9, and I have took the option for wings

But I do not know which direction to go with that would look better
The first one is more unique angle with more potential for gay romance, while the second has more aura/is cooler/possibly easier to fit with armor

[echo briar]

Hit points: 10
size: medium
speed: 25 feet
attribute boosts: +con, +free
Launguages: common, Additional languages equal to 1 + your Intelligence modifier (if it's positive). Choose from the list of common languages and any other languages to which you have access (such as the languages prevalent in your region).

Sweat
free action
frequency, see below
Trigger: you would become fatigued, and are not suffering from thirst
Effect: Your skin secretes a unique brine mixture called "sweat" to cool you down when you over heat. You do not become fatigued. You can not use this ability again until you drink at least one gallon of water.```

[rustic cape]

@craggy thunder https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=1220277 I made something very very stupid

[craggy thunder]

lord

XD

[rustic cape]

I'm doing a non-dual class version of this in Kingmaker but

I wanted to make a media-character version of Sam, as it were.

[craggy thunder]

of who?

Who's Sam lol

[rustic cape]

Oh, this character. Bomb-throwing barbarian who is going to end up as the herald of Lubaiko.

Goddess of checks watch molotov cocktails.

[plucky snow]

I vote for the gay romance option

[craggy thunder]

Goddess of the Black Bloc

[rustic cape]

Extreme chaos gremlin

(Sam, that is)

Currently the spymaster of our kingdom

[craggy thunder]

gay romance!

[craggy thunder]

The spymaster???

[rustic cape]

Emissary is the technical post

But the description of emissary is 1 part secretary of state, 2 parts national intelligence director

[frank crystal]

Chatroom, is Baba Yaga a hag or just an old woman?

[light gyro]

on golarion she's like a giga hag

[frank crystal]

Cool

[warped orbit]

she's not a hag herself IIRC

just a really powerful human witch

[frank crystal]

Ahh so yah she’s just an old lady then

[warped orbit]

yeah she's from Earth actually

[frank crystal]

Yah I just remember there being like, some magical beings on earth

So I wasn’t sure if I could count out her being a hag

Since I think they exist on earth

[warped orbit]

she got tutored in magic by a fey

[frank crystal]

in real life too

[frank crystal]

Ah yah

[warped orbit]

and then just became an incredibly powerful mage

I think strictly by the stats we had in PF1 about some of the powerful casters, she is the highest level

as a Witch 20/Archmage 10

[frank crystal]

Makes sense

[warped orbit]

she could probably fairly easily become a god if she wanted to, she just has personal distaste for the concept

[clever cobalt]

She has the same CR as Cthulhu iirc

[light gyro]

Come to think of it, did paizo say where the Christian God exists if anywhere in the cosmology.

[warped orbit]

I'd assume not

[light gyro]

cowards!!!!

[rustic cape]

She was a Russian woman who learned witchcraft from a demon and became the most powerful of mortal spellcasters, the kind of person who turns down godhood because it comes with too many practical constraints. Does she still even count as human? Big shrug. Could she do anything a hag could do? Definitely.

When she conquered Irrisen she did it with an army of demons and fey who she had presumably strong-armed into doing her bidding.

[warped orbit]

she has definitely used magic to become immortal and transcend humanity, plus having a personal dislike for humanity at this point

so it's hard to say whether she's still fully human

[rustic cape]

She's The Witch.

[warped orbit]

yeah

Baba Yaga just kinda does what she wants, because basically no one can stand up to her

[rustic cape]

She's friendly with Jatembe, though.

[warped orbit]

yeah they have friendly chats every year or so

[rustic cape]

Very different worldviews but no particular desire to clash, and the shared experience of being impossibly ancient mages.

[frank crystal]

Is he near her level btw? I know he’s one of the most accomplished wizards of all time and reinvented modern magic but idk how he compares

[rustic cape]

Back in 1e I think he was level 24.

[warped orbit]

sort of

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[rustic cape]

So, he's at the "beyond the impossible" level.

[warped orbit]

from the wiki, Jatembe was statted as a Wizard 20/Archmage 6

[rustic cape]

Oh, 26.

[warped orbit]

so he's "only" Mythic 6 to her Mythic 10

[rustic cape]

But it's not like they're gonna throw hands.

[warped orbit]

but they are both extremely powerful

[rustic cape]

Baba Yaga has no desire to conquer the world and even Irrisen seems to kind of annoy her.

Jatembe knows he can't right every wrong under heaven.

So the two get along, approximately.

[warped orbit]

Jatembe invented the magic system as it is used in the setting now

[rustic cape]

As of 2e he is the Primal and Arcane caster.

Irrisen's current metaplot with Grandmother Yaga's granddaughter on the throne is very entertaining to me, though.

(Anastasia Romanov)

[warped orbit]

she's doing quite well for herself from all we hear of the current Irrisen lore

[rustic cape]

I gotta give the writing credit, that was probably the happiest possible ending to an Irrisen adventure path.

But yeah, I think the best picture of Baba Yaga comes from the fact that she chooses to take the form of an impossibly old woman and lives in a weird hut. She's an awful person but is completely disaffected about power and principle.

If she wanted to Hao Jin it up as a beautiful sorceress with adoring fans she could, but she would rather be cold and alone and ugly and sarcastic.

And personally, I'd portray that as stemming from having about the same opinion of herself that she does of almost everyone else.

[craggy thunder]

"People are ugly, misguided, self-centered, mean, and inconstant. One of the many things I am, child, is a person."

[rustic cape]

Exactly.

And she seems ... hypothetically open to being proven wrong? But it's going to take a hell of a lot of proving.

In the new Superman movie, late in the film, there's a moment where ||Supes tells Luthor he's moved by envy, and Luthor effectively says, 'I'm not an idiot, I know I'm moved by envy, it's just that my envy is objectively good, actually.' It's a level of blinding egomania that I think Baba Yaga has absolutely nothing of.||

[frank crystal]

She would also hate Superman too I think

[rustic cape]

I think she wouldn't really care about him much.

She'd not have a high opinion of his worldview but it's not like she's a stranger to phenomenally powerful do-gooders.

[craggy thunder]

I do wish Superman and Lex' relationship was more often examined through the lens of class

Lex is infinite growth, infinite 'improvement'

While Clark is about being given a station in life where he's comfortable, and stays in that comfort while using what it gives him to help those he can

Which, in good Superman media, is the result of his farmboy upbringing ||Snyder||

anyways av club yada

[rustic cape]

It is probably worth noting that Lex has frequently been motivated by a specific desire for real estate, including in just about every film incarnation.

[frank crystal]

Clark… I can tech this shit

[rustic cape]

Well, except BvS

[craggy thunder]

Batman and Supes' relationship should also be examined through class more

[frank crystal]

Superman is actually a subversion because ||his land grab isn’t because he wants the land, it’s because he wants to kill Superman||

[rustic cape]

But yeah I think the thing is that Baba Yaga would not be impressed by the man of steel, even if he could overpower her.

Because she’s not impressed by anyone.

[craggy thunder]

She and Meti from KSBD are in this framing the like

self-aware, nihilistic boomer archetype

[rustic cape]

Save that Baba Yaga seems to hate herself less.

[craggy thunder]

true

[frank crystal]

Baba Yaga is like Metti but without all the self hatred and magic instead of swords

[craggy thunder]

God someone needs to make that 'you can break the cycle' meme with Meti, Maya, and Allison

[frank crystal]

“Swords suck”

“Swords suck”

“Kill your landlord”

[rustic cape]

For her, there’s no regret about what she’s become. Bitter, feared, terrifying old woman is what she seems to consider the optimal state of being.

[warped orbit]

She actively chose to be old

Because she wanted to live her full life before she turned immortal

[rustic cape]

Whereas Meti is furious at her own wasted life and wants everyone to know it, Baba Yaga has no need to prove anything to anyone, except maybe ‘fear me enough not to be a nuisance.’

[wraith snow]

Rasputin being a level 18 caster will never, ever stop entertaining me

[frank crystal]

He’s Baba Yaga’s son!

[rustic cape]

All this is to say that from an in-setting perspective she’s not really a villain, so much as a spectacularly dangerous immovable object with a bad attitude.

[wraith snow]

My current character in a homebrew game I'm in is a Jadwiga White Witch so I've done a lot of digging into that corner of the setting recently, it's very silly

[rustic cape]

She’s more likely to be a quest giver than an antagonist.

[rustic cape]

I played an animist in SoT who had lived with her from the ages of 10 to 20, and was not very happy about it.

[wraith snow]

Even in the AP where the party directly confronts her it's basically "hey can you pay attention to the country you annexed, thanks"

[wraith snow]

My character is a high-CHA Witch which in practice means he's roughly a step below wet toilet paper in terms of durability but he is very fun to RP

[rustic cape]

“I can.”

[wraith snow]

The GM had to fudge some numbers a bit because RAW he was killed in one shot by a PL+2 creature at level 1 via massive damage rules

[rustic cape]

I once played alongside a psychic who took a massive damage crit off of the first roll of the first enemy of the first scene of the AP.

My animist was a Polish girl who walked up to the Witch’s house demanding to be taught magic, and instead spent the next ten years effectively as her maid.

[clever cobalt]

Ironically, isnt Baba Yaga relatively young by Golarion Casters?

She's from the 500ad-1000ad

Nex, Geb, Jatambe etc. are a few millenia old

[rustic cape]

In my head, Baba Yaga was actually going to teach her, but she was waiting for the kid to sneak into a forbidden tome or steal something magical or something to prove herself.

But Ignacia never did and eventually the witch just got used to having someone to make the tea and be sort of vaguely cruel to.

[clever cobalt]

75bce, according to the wiki

Which is 2720 in Golarion years

[fast hill]

it hurts so much not playing a human

I need those general feats...

human getting 2 general feats at lvl 1 where it would take any other ancestry until lvl 7 to get those is kind of crazy

like sure you'd only spend those on the big 3 but that's 2/3 that you aren't taking at later levels

meanwhile me as an orc gets orcish ferocity

which is good but is it 2 initiative and +1 hp/lvl good?

[surreal basin]

Consider: the orc also gets more HP at early levels from their racial HP

[vocal ember]

I think it's (now) balanced by the fact that every ancestry can choose to get two free boosts.

[sturdy lagoon]

Tbh I don't see the big draw towards the big 3 general feats

[rustic cape]

1 more hp at level 1, if the human took toughness

[rustic cape]

As in you think they're overvalued?

Fleet is the strongest general feat, without question. A movement speed increase is amazing. Initiative is extremely strong if you're not getting the circumstance bonus from something else, which many classes will. Toughness is ... you know, it exists, it's good.

For my money, Diehard is undervalued, but it's still probably less important than those three.

Feather Step is immensely undervalued.

And is up there with Fleet, imo.

Breath Control is one that basically only humans take but when it matters wow it matters.

[sturdy lagoon]

Not really

I'm just disinterested in flavorless number boosts when it doesn't forward the concept I'm going for

I was like that even in pf1e, it's just not my style of play, I prefer to direct build space towards interesting picks that imply more about the character over combat min-maxing

Though in 1e it's harder to do that and still actually be useful

2e has a lot more guard rails about that

[warped orbit]

tbqh, there aren't a lot of general feats that do interesting stuff either really

[rustic cape]

I guess you can take skill feats with the generals

In general I'm okay with a few flavorness number boosts here and there, since my class and skill feat picks are going to be working towards my concept

[sturdy lagoon]

Yeah I mostly take skill feats while the character still has interesting ones

But if a character's concept needed that speed, I would take fleet or such, or initiative if their concept worked best as someone who always goes first, but not if that's not a focus of the character

And with 2e reducing emphasis on one man army builds and giving just generally better base statistics it is not as appealing to stack every numerical advantage into one character

[wraith snow]

I think I've taken fleet on literally all but one of my characters, if you expect to move at all during combat it's probably worth it,

Though I am admittedly somewhat sour on the idea of skill feats as an alternative just because of how many of them read as

"When you do [mechanic you've never once had a reason to interface with] you get [niche bonus]"

[small meteor]

I'm finding that the main thing stopping us from mechanically making Bǎihé an aiuvarin is.. Having to ask GMs if we can take fox form instead of tailless.

[fast hill]

my problem is that none of the general feats are really all that interesting to me

maybe I need to read through them some more but general feats are fairly rare and the big 3 are really powerful

they apply in all situations

it's why I like human so much, if I have 2/3 of the big 3 I can take more flavourful options

my current human commander has toughness and fleet: so I took ancestral paragon at lvl 3 for keep up appearances

which has never come up mechanically, but the GM gives me a +2 circumstance bonus to deception checks to appear locked in and unbothered

canny acumen is also really neat

also untrained improv feels like a general feat tax

much more than any of the big 3

[fast hill]

yeah I would never ever take a skill feat in place of a general feat

you only get so many whereas there are a bajillion skill feats every 2 levels

pf2e strikes a nice balance where playing optimally for a specific goal still feels flavourful

I've also never struggled with flavour not working with min maxxing quite like pf1e

"No.... I dont want an extra hair limb... Please don't make me do it...."

[wraith snow]

Yeah, I'd say my issue is less that minmaxing leads me to bad flavour (not that I was minmaxing to begin with) and more that the biggest flavour wins are often mechanically uninteresting or underwhelming

[fast hill]

thinking abt if I want int or dex as a sorcerer

undead bloodline sorc to be precise

wanna focus heavily on will saves

and mental effects

[wraith snow]

I would say almost certainly dex unless you want good recall/crafting for flavour reasons.

AC and reflex saves are critical, especially because Sorc save progression is already pretty not great

[clever cobalt]

The only real excuse to dump Dex is if you can get Bulwark Armor

[warped orbit]

You need Dex for AC

[clever cobalt]

And also that yeah

[fast hill]

mhm mhm

dex it is

[tribal steeple]

Dex definitely gets higher priority than int for sorcerers, generally

[warped orbit]

Unless you have some way of picking up armor

[tribal steeple]

Int is an okay flex pick but sorcerers kinda need that CHA > CON > DEX priority to not explode when something looks at them funny

[warped orbit]

I'd put Dex over Con personally

[tribal steeple]

Yeah prolly

[warped orbit]

It still takes you pretty long to max out your AC if you start at 16

Unless you chug Drakehearts I guess

[tribal steeple]

Key attribute obviously comes first, dex is how you establish your baseline of (sometimes) not getting hit, Con for raw hp is just universally good but having sufficient AC/saves is how you avoid getting crit

[rustic cape]

As always, high-skill optimization is the art of taking realizing one's flavor goals while being as effective as is appropriate.

Unrelated: https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1431 This is a pretty good spell, especially at higher levels.

[fast hill]

thinking about my actual build for Abomination Vaults as a fighter

[rustic cape]

Also also: why does the bonus from gate attenuators stop at +2.

[fast hill]

realising that as long as I keep up with crafting I shouldn't really struggle all that much to craft

a 50% chance to craft isn't that bad and I wont need it until lvl 5 where I can more int and crafting skill

[light gyro]

isnt the +1 con mod effectively better than a +1 taking a +2 to +3? since impulse is con+prof?

[rustic cape]

Yeah but everybody is going to be getting an apex item around then.

You do get legendary proficiency at 19, but.

wobbles hand

[warped orbit]

They didn't want to make them fully equivalent to potency I guess

For whatever reason

[fast hill]

I'm looking at weapons I could use as a fighter

bec de corbin is really cool

but I'm not sure if it's worth 1d8 damage

versatile has never ever come up in any of the pathfinder campaigns I've ever played in

[wraith snow]

It's come up for me before, usually only bludgeoning though

[fast hill]

yeah

[wraith snow]

If you're a gambling connoisseur, I do enjoy great pick fighter

[fast hill]

I know someone who really wants to do it

I've been considering a bastard sword fighter that swaps between one handed to do manuever/strike feats and two handed to do big attacks

[wraith snow]

You do get locked into a very small weapon group, but the explosive damage is very fun

[fast hill]

but I really wanna play a nice two handed full plate fighter

and the bec de corbin, aesthetically, is very...

knightly

it's not a typical fantasy weapon

[warped orbit]

It's a reach trip weapon, you'll be absolutely fine

[fast hill]

Reach shove

[warped orbit]

Ah, that's slightly less good I guess

Long Hammer is also a similar option

[wraith snow]

so is their dad a gnome by any chance

[fast hill]

Actually shove reach could be awesome

If I go mauler I take slam down

Move next to them: slam down, shove 5 feet away

[warped orbit]

Slam Down is very good

[fast hill]

Nothin they can do except take an AOO or fully disengage

Or use up 2 actions stepping and then standing

And theyd still have to use 2 actions to even get back to adjacency

[fast hill]

the damper on that is that slam down is twice map

so the shove is at a -10

[rustic cape]

Man, the scaling on Fresh Produce is amazing.

[fast hill]

mauler fighter might not be worth it

[errant roost]

my farmer's market loving ass is always saying this

[rustic cape]

It's only really good for out-of-combat at level 1, but by 3 it's already perfectly ripe

[light gyro]

oh right, apex. in that case i guess it's just niche protection - nobody gets a better ranged to-hit than fighter/slinger?

[rustic cape]

I guess.

It's weird because you're just behind other martials until 19, though.

[fast hill]

you can use ancestry based weapons as long as you have proficiency in the category right?

so even though I'm not a dwarf I can use a long hammer?

[rustic cape]

Yeah.

Good weapon, too.

[fast hill]

really good

bec de corbin but better imo

trip so nice

[small meteor]

Long hammers are not Uncommon, so they're Just Out There™.

Atwcat (He/Him) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161695831775248426 message) you can use ancestry based weapons as long as you have proficiency in the category right?

[rustic cape]

Ancestry tags just key into certain feats.

[fast hill]

I think long hammer:

trip, brutish shove

if they're adjacent

if not just strike, trip

[rustic cape]

Just remember that trip has the attack tag

[fast hill]

yeah

that way I can use brutish shove

[rustic cape]

So MAP

[fast hill]

costing 1 level of MAP to get an AOO on the enemy's next turn and demolishing their action eco

is imo worth it

a fighter can reliably hit a tripped opponent at -5 MAP I think

because if they're prone from the trip and then shoved they have to spend an action to get up then an action to either get closer or further away

at honestly no real cost to me except making my strike for the round at MAP

[warped orbit]

Brutish Shove is Press anyway IIRC

[fast hill]

yeah

[fast hill]

long hammer is peak give me a versatile BPS poleaxe paizo and my life is yours!!!!!!

[small meteor]

I can get you PS reach if that's enough?

[fast hill]

halberds are cool but I need my poleaxe for the knightly aesthetic

[rustic cape]

Bludgeoning/Slashing is king but there are not a ton of those.

Kusarigama, macahuitls, off the top of my head.

Weapon infusion good.

[warped orbit]

Leiomano

[rustic cape]

Kusarigama is just kind of an amazing weapon.

Even if it were d6 it would still probably be tempting.

[surreal basin]

I disagree with the base assumption they operate in but it’s almost certainly because they don’t wanna give casters potency and kinet is like, half caster half martial

[rustic cape]

I guess I can see a logic to it based on how kinets have lots of save DC effects, and use Con for both DCs and attack rolls.

Nobody else gets to use the same score for both of those while also having caster style effects, right?

It does mean that the major gate attenuator is extremely skippable, though.

Since it only gives you a stronger spell.

[clever cobalt]

Spirit Thresher

[fast hill]

Does anyone know how to add class archetypes onto foundry?

I.e war mage, avenger, battle harbinger

Aiui you take them at 1st level and lock in your dedication feat for 2nd level

Maybe im wrong on that

[rustic cape]

PF2e foundry has extensive modding

[fast hill]

Not add ut

Put them onto your sheet

[rustic cape]

Probably look into whether anyone has already done such a mod first

Ah

[surreal basin]

It’ll usually let you select it as your subclass

For stuff like warrior of legend it’s either:
a bespoke class
Or you take the dedication in bonus feats at level 1

[fast hill]

yeahhh

oh awesome yeah

there's a non dedication bonus "feat" you throw in

u drag it on and it becomes a class feature

[fast hill]

anyone know anything about orc names?

I see a 1st name that's usually some sort of like, gutteral sounding name and I see a lot of conjunctive, descriptive names

[surreal basin]

I’m so fucking smart

[fast hill]

I am noticing a pattern though which is that pf2e orcs generally are name/surname while pf1e orcs tend to be name/the x or name/word-word

[fast hill]

we have our party for Abomination Vaults

!!!!!

[fossil dome]

Gunslinger, my beloved

[wraith snow]

Damn, there's more humans in that party than I've seen across 5 campaigns

[fast hill]

Lmfao

We usually play humans

I basically only play humans, but sometimes if the vibe fits I play orc or elf

I love dwarves so much but they have like...

Loveable side character energy

I have played catfolk and a fleshwarp though

Catfolk rogue, fleshwarp fighter

He was cool

Greatpick fighter my beloved

[wraith snow]

Usually the distribution of ancestries for the games I'm in are 2-3 'classic' fantasy races and then 1-2 freaks (affectionate).

With Bloodlords as the exceptions because we had the full undead party going

[fast hill]

bloodlords was fun

we had a skeleton, ghoran, fleshwarp and a human fighter

[wraith snow]

We had a skeleton swash (me), a "mummy" psychic that was flavoured as a Frankenstein's Monster-type, a Gnoll vampire, and an Orc barbarian who started the campaign alive and finished as a zombie

[fast hill]

thats awesome

our skeleton was a skeleton gunslinger with the revenant archetype

since we had free archetype

[clever cobalt]

Tbf I think Blood Lords is designed to be a Monstrous Party due to its very premise

[fast hill]

yeah

we didn't have enough undead I feel

our human fighter died fighting the skull fairy in the manor

[clever cobalt]

The Impossible Lands are fun, especially Geb

[fast hill]

they took the skele's head, then when the human fighter went uncon the skull fairy did it's thing and ripped his head off

it doesn't really say if it kills them or anything so I kind of assumed the skeleton would survive such a thing, human mortal? not so much

[clever cobalt]

Yeah thatll do it

[fast hill]

oh yea it does die

either way i plan on running blood lords again

this time with explicit mention that if u take free archetype it must be an undead archetype, or if you want you can take an undead archetype in that slot at a later date

[wraith snow]

That's how my GM ran it, though I got an exception

bc Skeleton is already the ancestry

[clever cobalt]

I wanted to playa Fleshwarp Undead of some sort

[wraith snow]

and doubling up seems strange

[clever cobalt]

Maybe a Ghoul for thematical purposes

Via the Ghoul archetype

Dunno what class though

Wizard, Druid, Fighter, or Thaumaturge most likely

Maybe a Champion, though that may be hard given the campaign is mostly Evil, at least to my knowledge

Though some neutrals exist in Geb, somehow

[wraith snow]

ehhh

You definitely can play it that way but the scenario is very much set up so that the players are (usually) fighting Bigger Evils

[clever cobalt]

Fair

I suppose its more that most evil gods are kinda unfun to follow, at least for me

[wraith snow]

Fair

[clever cobalt]

Abadar was the closest I could think of

Arazni is also probably a bad idea in Geb

Cause either Arazni hates you, or you are actively working against Geb by following her

[wraith snow]

I mean, my character was a Pharasma worshipper

so uhhh

could be worse!

[clever cobalt]

How did that work?

[wraith snow]

Unwillingly reanimated, and mostly worshipped in an attempt to recover memories of when he was alive

[clever cobalt]

Neat

Arazni also supports unwilling Undead iirc

Given her old status as an unwilling undead

[wraith snow]

He was a very fun character to play

[clever cobalt]

Also i learned the other day that the Corrupted Herald of Iomadae from Wrath of thr Righteous is currently Arazni's Herald

[wraith snow]

He had no memories but believed he was a noble based on what few posessions he had, the truth of the matter was that he was a con artist who swindled a real noble for a lot of money in a romance scam and was exiled to Geb

Killed and reanimated shortly thereafter

[clever cobalt]

After being tortured by Baphomet and being replaced

[clever cobalt]

Nice

[fast hill]

I'm doing something very unconventional

and saving money at CC

[wraith snow]

Well, depends on class

[fast hill]

I have like 8 GP spare as a fighter because I don't know how I want to build myself

so I just have a light hammer, hide armor and a buckler

[wraith snow]

Kineticist struggles to find a way to spend 15 gold ime

[fast hill]

I do not have the dex to get full AC from hide

but I just dont know how I wanna build myself other than full plate

weapon wise? uncertain

I wanna just be "fighter who hits thing" until 2nd level ish and I get a feel for how the rest of the party plays

[wraith snow]

I am and always will be a Bola Believer in terms of things a martial should have in inventory at low levels, could go Javelins too

Crowbar is a must if you have athletics

[fast hill]

yeah I've got a crowbar and a repair toolkit

my thing is that I do not have dex

so I'm probably not gonna be throwing anything

so bola and javelins are just kinda meh

[wraith snow]

Fair enough on javelins, heavily disagree on bolas

Ranged trip uses your Athletics

Dex is irrelevant for them, most of the time

you technically CAN throw them for 1d6 but I would argue that's not their primary utility

[wraith snow]

small aside: for balance reasons I understand but I still think using athletics for ranged trip in Starfinder is kinda dumb

I'm shooting someone's legs out with a rocket-propelled tripwire, where the hell does my benchpress come into this?

[fast hill]

oh fuck yes actually

u so right

[wary yoke]

I mean I carry javelins on my Exemplar because I want a ranged option that gets buffed

I enjoy chucking d8s at people

[fast hill]

we had our first session!

abomination vaults AP but technically we're doing beginners box rn

20 gp already

[fast hill]

bastard sword is so damn cool

it's just got so much versatility, especially as a fighter

in exchange for damage versatility it has, especially at lvl 4 with dual handed assault, the versatility of having one hand while having the power of two handed

strike, trip, 2 hand? two attacks at no MAP if everything goes well

[fast hill]

not a series of actions you couldn't do with a 2 handed weapon but you can also use it with snagging strike or combat grab

[wraith snow]

I've played a lot of this system but I'm trying to work on running the GM end of things, does anybody have advice for running sessions at very low levels?

I was thinking of running something level 1-3

[solar storm]

Be careful about PL+3 or +4 enemies since they're a little harder to handle at low levels

Fewer tools to get around their strengths

[wraith snow]

2 of my players have locked in character concepts and I'm intending to mostly homebrew everything so that's nice for me at least

I will for sure have 2 martials in the party, swashbuckler and barb

The former being built for Clawdancer and the latter being relatively straight forward

[solar storm]

You're probably in good shape then

It's not unique to low levels but lacking a beefy frontline can make combats really awkward

[wraith snow]

I've had that issue in other systems for sure

When I ran Lancer specifically that ended up being a major issue for me, actually

The party I ran for was EXTREMELY good on immobile sitreps but completely fell apart the second they had to actively advance

[solar storm]

My experience as a player is basically that:

• you want 2+ characters who can anchor a frontline. Usually martials but not universally
• you want sources of in combat and out of combat healing, which can include items for in combat
• you want some debuff options or stuff besides straightforward single target damage and such

For party comp stuff

[wraith snow]

I have the forementioned 2 players, one who's leaning Cleric but isn't sure, and another who's entirely undecided

I am somewhat lucky in that all of my players have GMed the system extensively, I as the current GM am the one with the least experience

Though at this point I've played something like 60 levels of the system so I'd like to think I know at least something

[solar storm]

Cleric solves your healing problems really well

[wraith snow]

He mostly just isn't sure bc he's played Cleric a lot before

It's his favourite class bc he really enjoys religion in fantasy settings but he's played a lot of it

[solar storm]

Yeah that's valid

I try to avoid playing the same class too much

Cleric is a lot of fun though

[wraith snow]

The one entirely undecided player is by his own admission a bit of a power-gamer

So at the very least he will show up with something competent

[rustic cape]

A level 7 enemy at level 3 is basically just a death sentence.

[rustic cape]

This applies to basically all levels, but if you need to challenge players it’s often better to throw extra HP, extra reactions, and extra abilities than to scale levels. Every +1 is going to reduce the players’ chances of getting hits and crits, which makes fights more boring and frustrating.

My GM guts crit immunity and replaces it with doubled HP on oozes for the same reason.

Doing 50 damage to an enemy with 200 HP is always more satisfying than doing 25 to an enemy with 100 HP.

[wraith snow]

Admittedly I am still a little murky on how to balance encounters for very low levels in this regard

The level math seems strange when you have several sub-1 creatures to consider, at least to me

[woeful pecan]

Help I started looking at 2e

This kinda slaps, I already made a character (half-baked probably but still)

[fast hill]

what's the use case of dragging strike?

[wraith snow]

Can pull opportunity attackers off allies, break enemy flanking positioning, there's a Rogue feat that lets them attack an enemy who an ally attacks on reaction and this enables that to be a sneak attack

[fast hill]

actually I'm realising one benefit is preventing flanks on an ally

mmmmmm yeah

[wraith snow]

It's certainly niche but it has some stuff

[frank crystal]

What’s the character?

[woeful pecan]

Automaton Twisting Tree Magus, named "The Fulcrum"

[frank crystal]

Ooooo

[woeful pecan]

Magus has always been my favorite class in any given game, and 2e has just made me love it more. It feels WAY less clunky

Plus I adore the official art for the mage automaton, very gender

[frank crystal]

I love the official automaton art

[light gyro]

the tragedy of pf2e is that they'll make new rare ancestries until the sun burns out but none will have half the sauce the automaton art has

[woeful pecan]

I haven't looked at recent Pathfinder stuff basically since 2e was announced so I have a LOT of catching up to do

[solar storm]

Oh my there’s so much now haha

[woeful pecan]

It just feels like every ounce of it is suffused with rule of cool type shit

[clever cobalt]

Fleshwarps are also neat

Though they lack level 17 racial feats

[fast hill]

can you give gauntlets runes?

Looking at the wrestler archetype and it gives a lot of unarmed strike based feats, and wondering if I could do that with gauntlets or if I'd need handwraps

[clever cobalt]

I believe so, given theyre considered weapons

[fast hill]

fuck

hmmmm considering bec de corbin or longhammer

the difference is basically

razing/shove or brace/trip

[wraith snow]

I ran a longhammer Champion in a game recently, was good fun

[fast hill]

yeah they're both really cool

aesthetically too

[wraith snow]

Though I did abuse the Weapon Ally shifting a fair bit

[fast hill]

looove me some knightly polearms