Pathfinder

[fossil dome]

Fire Kinet shoulda picked the cold damage EB option

[clever cobalt]

Yeah, its kinda essential for Fire Kineticwt

For this exact reason

[trim bluff]

You get the second blast at 7th level, right?

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

But the alternate damage feats are level 1

[trim bluff]

Wait, are you guys talking about 1e or 2e

[clever cobalt]

2e

[trim bluff]

We're doing 1e

[clever cobalt]

Ah gotcha

Nvm then

[surreal basin]

I mean I think it’s still applicable as a note

Alternate blasts still exist

[tribal steeple]

okay 1e kineticist is indeed hard-countered by applicable immunities

I was gonna say, 2e kineticists get a thing (Extract Element) SPECIFICALLY so they have some way of fighting [trait] enemies like that

I think it is scuffed for the enemies who are immune to a damage type but do not have a [trait] tag.

[true delta]

Greetings! Do spellcasting archetypes come with focus spells?

It doesn't look like it. However, my party's rogue is taking the druid dedication. It comes with a choice of druid subclass and a related focus spell (Heal Animal, as stated in the subclass). Hence my confusion.

[sturdy lagoon]

Archetypes can give focus spells. There is nothing restricting them from doing so. If the feat mentions that you gain access to a focus spell, you do. However, note the wording in the base feat for the Druid archetype:

Choose a druidic order. You become a member of that order and are also bound by its specific anathema, allowing you to take the order’s feats. You become trained in Nature and your order’s associated skill; for each of these skills in which you were already trained, you become trained in a skill of your choice. You don’t gain any other abilities from your choice of order.

Compare to the actual druid class feature:

Upon becoming a druid, you align yourself with a druidic order, which grants you a class feat, an order spell (see below), and an additional trained skill tied to your order.

See also the Druid Archetype feat Order Spell:

You gain the initial order spell from your order. This is a focus spell, granting you a focus pool or expanding that pool. You can Refocus by being one with nature.

You don't gain that Order's focus spell unless you take the feat for it. You also don't gain the associated feat for free either.

[true delta]

Thank you for this well-ordered explanation!!!
Exactly what I needed!! <3<3

[eager mountain]

are you playing on foundry ?

[true delta]

Oui

[true delta]

Another, more minor thing... I cannot locate an entry for "winter wolf" on either Foundry or Archives of Nethys. Are there no more winter wolves for some reason?

[eager mountain]

if you want the players to be able to see the previous places theyve been, then leave it off.

they wont be able to see through walls if you set them up.

remember line of sight is entirely dependent if you set up barriers and walls for them to not be able to see through

[eager mountain]

are you using any modules ?

or are you doing maps yourself

[eager mountain]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=3231&Redirected=1

[true delta]

I'm running Quest for the Frozen Flame. Today's session will be theater of the mind.

[eager mountain]

its called a witchwarg

[true delta]

oh

huh

thanks

[eager mountain]

ah ok, yeah your gonna have to set up maps and stuff yourself, ive tried to rune that before too

i was using dungeon alchemist to make my maps for it

@true delta how experienced are you with foundry ?

[true delta]

Somewhat

[eager mountain]

you atleast know walls then

[true delta]

Yeah

[true delta]

thanks for the tip

[eager mountain]

id reccomend map making softwares if you can find one you like, it helps alot

[true delta]

(a note on witch wargs: I dislike how the formerly stately winter wolf is now such an ugly thing, but whatevs)

[eager mountain]

thank wizards of the coast for that

[rustic cape]

OH something I just remembered about QftFF!

You may want to allow the PCs to choose who's going to carry the ||Primordial Flame|| and its associated curse out of combat, possibly through a ritual, just in case someone ||disarms the dragon and has to pick up the flame but is very ill-suited to carrying it.||

[eager mountain]

wiat when did shirren look like that!

[true delta]

Let a bug be edgy :D

[wooden orbit]

Look sometimes mutations happen and you just roll with it.

[true delta]

My group (and that includes myself) is pretty nooby, so nobody even knows you can disarm an enemy. I will, however, have an enemy disarm someone now and subsequently heed your advice concerning the thing.

[rustic cape]

Disarming is very difficult, but is one of the ways to significantly turn that fight around.

Because the curse hits her with All The Debuffs

[true delta]

Oh ...

Today's session was nice. A new player character was introduced. Then, we went on a little side plot where I winged both plot and rules for the most part. I think it was fun for players. Idk. GMing is hard. There will need to be twists and consequences, methinks.

There shall now be an Elite Quickling names Fefrethriel, Last Player of the Eternal Orchestra -- You see, three quicklings were playing Lost Woods on their flutes but my players killed two.

[eager mountain]

turns out its a swarm exile shirren "

which is a version of shirren where as the shirren left the swarm a long time ago , your like extremely recently left the swarm

The Swarm , for those not familiar with starfinder

ARRRRREEEE basically the Tyranid

the shirren used to be Swarm, but they learned the power of friendship XD

thier Goddess , Hylax the Forever Queen , is basically the goddess of friendship

*( Hylax )

[silver geyser]

1e had this as well, but it's a tricky one. https://aonprd.com/KineticistTalentsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Draining Infusion

[wooden orbit]

https://youtu.be/sy1EVVE7J2g I hope someone eventually converts this AP to Starfinder 2E.

[eager mountain]

same

i tried to rune that as one of my first games, my brother and friends didnt like it and i never ran starfinder again

but its just becuase I wasnt ready to run a game

i think i could do it better now

[clever cobalt]

Hopefully they add the Evolutionist to 2e relatively soon

[true delta]

Dumb question: Should an alchemist gain formulae as loot? Or just some bombs?

[light gyro]

you can do either, its like giving wizards spellbooks and scrolls

[solar storm]

Both is fine but IME they will reverse engineer alchemical stuff anyway

[true delta]

Thanks!

[echo briar]

What do you think the odds are that Paizo does something with earth in the next 3 years?

Because they only have 3 years before they have to deal with nazi Germany

[small meteor]

I was gonna say something about we know what the date is.

[echo briar]

And I don’t think they will touch that with a 30 ft pole

[small meteor]

Wait.. Is it 1930 in Pathfinder right now?

[clever cobalt]

yes

[echo briar]

Yes

[small meteor]

Oh fuck.

[clever cobalt]

itg's currently 1925 in PF2e

I think

[small meteor]

Wha-? Oh fuck.

[clever cobalt]

on Earth at least

[echo briar]

No, it’s 1930

[small meteor]

Well, we know what year it was in 1918.

[clever cobalt]

mhm

[echo briar]

It was 1918 in 2013

[clever cobalt]

Regardless I do kinda hope for more Earth stuff

but at the same time

it may be weird

[echo briar]

Do you think they could do an alt history for earth?

[small meteor]

1918 AD is 4713 AR, and it's currently 4725 AR, which is 12 years later. Thus it's 1930. Oh no.

[clever cobalt]

potentially

maybe Cthulhu rises idk

[small meteor]

Honestly though, I wouldn't argue with a Nazi-punching AP.

[clever cobalt]

there's a whole CYOA I like about the "Stars being right" but Humanity and Civilization just keeps going

and yeah

though you already can sorta do that with Cheliax

[wooden orbit]

Not sure if I want to see Earth pop up again in Pathfinder but that’s just me

[wooden orbit]

True and we do have Hellbreakers coming up next year

[heavy fulcrum]

its still a few years before the Nazis actually take power

(Hitler became Chancellor in January 1933)

[wary yoke]

The most insane, but mostly workable position they could go with is that Warframe is canon to Starfinder

[heavy fulcrum]

which is probably one of the best times to do an adventure in Nazi Germany, since you could have it involve the Reichstag fire

because its either that or wait until like, the 40s

[surreal basin]

I think it’d be really funny if it never happens again

W earth

[turbid dagger]

So, SF2e freely brings up the possibility of playing Cleric in the core book
But other than that references for porting content is frustratingly sparse
I must imagine it'll get a bit in the SF2e game master book

[surreal basin]

I think they said it will be ues

[true delta]

Someone here has said guidance on that stuff will be in the GM book.

[surreal basin]

Man I’m really thinking about fucking around with making a Warlock class

[turbid dagger]

That would be neat!
Obv Witch covers the narrative and Psychic sort of does the mechanical side but there's space for it definitely

[rustic cape]

So my SoT character was from Poland, and in her epilogue I note she briefly returned to Earth, and then left again due to not finding it to be home anymore. My GM mentioned the time period, and I was like, 'you know, that makes sense, it's because of the fascism in Europe'.

(She eventually wandered off into the Maelstrom and was never seen again)

[heavy fulcrum]

not a great time!

even without the fascism, its also the great depression

also Poland is under a dictatorship in the 30s as well

technically not fascist but they called themselves "Sanitation" so...........

[rustic cape]

Despite it not being a terribly roleplay heavy campaign I'm still inordinately pleased with Ignacja.

[frank crystal]

So I’ve found an oversight

Summon lesser servitor, doesn’t work

There are no level -1 celestials, fiends or monitors

The spell doesn’t function unless it’s upcasted to at least 2

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah, you have to go with an animal instead

[rapid wagon]

So, weird expectation question. Summoning spells mostly just tell you what level of creature you can summon. Does it assume you have access to/ know the npc library? If so, why is recall knowledge a thing?

Or is the gm supposed to give you a list when you tell them you're taking a summoning spell?

[rustic cape]

Generally my GM runs it as whatever you’d like unless it’s truly implausible.

Unfortunately monsters don’t have rarity, that would be an easy way to handle it

In general summon spells are not so powerful that one needs to worry about it a lot.

[limber comet]

Monsters do have rarity

It's just usually that monster rarity is more like tied to their appearance in an Adventure Path

[vocal ember]

the rule is you can summon any common monster (see the summon trait), so normally you cannot summon like random NPCs or whatever if that's what you're asking?

[rapid wagon]

Well no i mean that generally, players don't have intimate knowledge of the monster manual or monsters in general, but it seems like summoning spells do want you to have that

But if you have that, then you know the monsters weaknesses anyway and recall knowledge seems superfluous

[echo briar]

Does anyone know if the new archetype that gives you a humanoid minion lets said minion use items?

Because on one hand, that’s totally something piazo would do. On the other hand, I feel like Reddit would have been complaining about it for a month by now

[warped orbit]

I assume not

from what I've heard so far, they mostly work the same as other minions

[echo briar]

New minion, Jimmy no hands

[surreal basin]

They cannot use items

[errant roost]

Knowledge skills have always been weird when it comes to out of character information. It's the "trolls hate fire" problem -- something is only a mystery the first time you the player encounter it, if your memory is good.

[rapid wagon]

Which tbf, within the scope of campaigns, can be pretty often

First timing enemies

Most people, I don't think, are playing pathfinder so frequently to have encountered like every enemy and knowledge checked them

[warped orbit]

Summon spells do require you to pick from the list

You generally need to pick pretty specific monsters at each level to make them decent too

[rapid wagon]

Just seems weird that the spell doesn't give you specific options as a player

Instead presumes you'll go hunting through the monster manual

[warped orbit]

It's what people wanted during the playtest

[surreal basin]

Playtesters should be shot

[warped orbit]

I do think it would be much better if summons were also templated, but it is what it is now

[surreal basin]

I think the only playtest change I liked was removing resonance points

[warped orbit]

The problem is that there is a sizable contingent of people who do enjoy and want this

AoN does list out all the options for each level on the spell pages usually

[rapid wagon]

That's fair, I don't exactly feel super strongly about it, just feels like mixed messaging

Like on one hand you have recall knowledge and having understanding of creatures weaknesses being a useful tool. On the other you could just save the action economy and Google your creature

Which seems a huge departure from actually playing the game

A bit of a disconnect if you will

[warped orbit]

That's always a tension with stuff like this, yes

It's why I personally am generally not a fan of hidden info on monsters anymore

If you have a bestiary people can just look up or learn naturally

[echo briar]

I think proficiency being +2 a tier instead of +1 was a great change.

A low cha fighter with legendary intimidation is actually scarier than the bard who’s only trained.

[warped orbit]

Most annoying part about Captain btw
If you are a Commander, the humanoid minion can't be part of tactics due to not having reactions like all minions

But the Commander companion feats can, it just needs to be an animal

Commander dog is better at following tactics than the guy from Captain

[turbid dagger]

Couldn't you give it a reaction with commanders special thing

[surreal basin]

Huh, yeah u can

[shrewd bane]

cries in having more awful character ideas

[turbid dagger]

In Starfinder news- the Doshko has lost Unwieldy, to my deep surprise
d12 Parry is a martial statblock, apparently

[rustic cape]

Well damn

[shrewd bane]

God idek how to rule a character that is both a person and mess of objects that is vaguely possessed with the appearance of an actual person

Are they a construct or...?

[warped orbit]

the Magnetar Rifle also got better, it's probably one of the best ranged weapons now if you can get proficiency

[surreal basin]

That’s a construct

[turbid dagger]

The magnetar being d12 automatic is wild yeah
Soldiers thriving
The Fangblade also appeals to me, admittedly more for meme stuff than true efficacy
d10 boost d12
Spend an action to Boost, then Vicious Swing or somesuch

Gamble it all

[warped orbit]

30 round magazine too IIRC

So it holds up fairly well through Autofire

[shrewd bane]

Aight, cool

[echo briar]

Two new SF2 ancestries for free https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo71wi9

That makes for a total of 7 ancestries before the system officially comes out

[limber comet]

Shobhads being in a player's guide feels not great

Considering they're Akiton's og inhabitants

[turbid dagger]

I'm not sure it's a big deal
It's a player's guide for an entire Starfinder Society season set on Akiton

[wooden orbit]

And they could wind up adding the ancestries into an bigger book down the line.

[surreal basin]

Also I know some people were happy about them but boy I’m glad some of the meme stuff got cut

Like 360 no scope

[shrewd bane]

Y'know I'd question if I'd be able to use a reflavored Conrasu for that character idea I had earlier but eh, might be a stretch

[turbid dagger]

Oh was it cut or renamed? The actual mechanics for no scope was cool

[echo briar]

I believe they are cut from the book, but not necessarily from the game

Space issues were apparently rampant

I wouldn’t be surprised if they comeback in a future book, or even if they were cut because they fit into a different book

[vital kiln]

Contemplating a general feat for my drifter gunslinger

Y'all got any reccs besides Fleet and Tough

[warped orbit]

Robust Health if you have someone using Battle Medicine in the party

[vital kiln]

...hm

Is it worth taking Weapon Proficiency

To get an Advanced melee

[novel merlin]

In 2e? Not usually

[sacred bluff]

It doesn't scale

[turbid dagger]

The scaling you get from weapon prof the feat isn't workable for actually using it as your main deal, unfortunately

[vital kiln]

Dammit

...god, advanced melees are shafted

[sacred bluff]

They really are

[vital kiln]

Barely any better than regular melees and half the time the effort to get proficiency in them is never worth it

[sacred bluff]

At best it's something you retrain out of when you get expert proficiency

[turbid dagger]

Mosst advanced weapons have a very workable route to getting them but it usually takes building towards that via ancestry or archetype

[warped orbit]

Generally you get advanced weapons via ancestry yes

Either ancestry weapon, or Human with Unconventional Weaponry

[vital kiln]

The issue arises with either wanting to play a different race or not having any reason for why you'd be raised by someone from that race

[warped orbit]

Which weapon are you trying to use?

Also tbqh, if you just let Weapon Proficiency work like Unconventional Weaponry for any one weapon, it'd be fine

[vital kiln]

A kalis

Something to replace my longsword

Something marginally more interesting

[rapid wagon]

Is there a common houserule around getting proficiency with an advanced weapon?

To make it less ass to pursue using one?

Like is Alaen's suggestion one that people run with?

[novel merlin]

Khopesh is a fun longsword alternative

just uncommon

[vital kiln]

Maybe, maybe

[turbid dagger]

I have stumbled across an enlightened idea
Using art of Destiny Fallen for Shobhad

Anyway I am contemplating a Fangblade Close Quarters Shobhad Soldier

[rustic cape]

So wait, is the full release of SF2e out?

Or did we just get an updated beta?

[fossil dome]

Full release Thursday

Presumably some folks got advance PDFs

[rustic cape]

Gotcha

Danke

[fossil dome]

Nw

Battlecry drops the same day

[rustic cape]

Oh, wow, Ikeshti look rad

[fossil dome]

Ikeshti?

(I've been too busy crying about international shipping to properly give it a squiz)

[rustic cape]

PDF with 2 free ancestries here

Lizards and very large four-armed gun nuts

[fossil dome]

Oooh, ok

[echo briar]

Gun nuts that have very few features that work with guns, and a ton that are focused on melee

[warped orbit]

Operative caught a bunch of nerfs from the playtest it seems

[rustic cape]

Did it need them?

I never looked at it in great detail.

[echo briar]

It was the best class by far

I don’t know what the nerfs are, but they could very easily be justified

[rustic cape]

The main thing I know about SF2e is that soldiers are extremely cool.

[warped orbit]

Most of the subclasses got nerfed, and they lost a bunch of their mobility buffs

Sniper is the only one that got relatively unchanged I believe

[rustic cape]

Look as long as Action Hero Soldier is still the coolest thing in the universe

[echo briar]

are they? I thought all the ice weapons sucked

[steel blade]

im disappointed they removed Solarian subclasses and moved supernova and black hole to level 4 feats

[rustic cape]

I got to play Action Hero Soldier once at level 1 and I loved it 😌

[warped orbit]

Overall Operative and Soldier still seem near the top

Also Witchwarper

They were already good, and got buffed further in some cases

Though part of that is Twisted Dark Zone bring incredibly good

[rustic cape]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/449651567948464128/1268983144711717004/IMG_7221.jpg?ex=6889ace6&is=68885b66&hm=b9e8f94a9c39485c30948869651f878f058f8372bc71654cddb4214a2a14d994&=&format=webp&width=1240&height=930

My character.

[warped orbit]

Solarians feel like they're struggling a bit

[rustic cape]

I will say that putting abilities called "supernova" and "black hole" at level 4 feels like a bit of conceptual frontloading XD

Supernovae in particular seem to me as though they should be a pretty big deal

[echo briar]

Just give them mediocrenova at level 1

[turbid dagger]

I gave Soldier a comb through last night chasing that shobhad idea and Close Quarters soldier at least does seem extremely good
From level 2 I had a basic game plan charted out of spending one action on Boost and then using Shot On The Run to stride into range, make a Primary Target attack with Boost up, then the aoe cleave
For enemies you're already in melee with you can instead Whirling Swipe into Punishing Salvo, or Heat Up (I think that's the name, the one where you area fire twice in a row for a total of four chainsaw swings)
And then you get ancillary stuff like the move that makes your area attacks leave a cloud of concealing smoke behind so you conceal yourself after you attack, or the one that makes your attacks agile against suppressed targets

[warped orbit]

Soldier seemed pretty good in the playtest

Haven't heard much about their release form yet

[rustic cape]

I love that the heavy armor class is a Con-primary AoE attacker with legendary class proficiency

[warped orbit]

A hypothetical I've been thinking about for a bit
Would you let someone play a Soldier in a PF2 game?

[echo briar]

Not unless you have SF weapons

Even the melee one can get weird without them

[warped orbit]

assume the Soldier can access SF weapons as usual, but other people can't

[rustic cape]

That said, I don't think SF2e weapons would be out-of-line in PF2e.

From a balance perspective, at least.

[warped orbit]

I mostly think they have an interesting niche as an AoE and save focused martial

[rustic cape]

I agree

I think you could very easily fluff one as, I dunno, someone with Numerian nanotech bullshit going on

[light gyro]

automaton soldier

[warped orbit]

also I would probably largely agree
if nothing else because composite bows still loom large over all ranged weapons

[rustic cape]

Composite shortbow ftw

[warped orbit]

most of the SF classes seem pretty compatible largely

[rustic cape]

The big thing is that they're allowed into certain mechanical niches PF2e has disallowed by custom

And vice versa

[warped orbit]

Witchwarper and Mystic I think you could just use as is

[rustic cape]

Thinking about this now, it'd be fun if it automatically converts items they equip into Starfinder stuff.

Pick up crossbow, suddenly grows into assault rifle

[turbid dagger]

Honestly would this be true under sf2e
Like, a Fighter could triple shot with a Magnetar Rifle non

[warped orbit]

a majority of the weapons in SF2 I'd say are still not that much stronger than bows IMO

the Magnetar Rifle is definitely a bit of an outlier though, yeah

the SF2 ranged weapons are definitely stronger, I just don't know if they would be that much stronger

also you couldn't use Double/Triple Shot because it's not Reload 0

[novel merlin]

IMO just because the systems are rules compatible it doesn't mean that mixing them consistently will actually work cleanly

[turbid dagger]

Honestly, def not universally but a lot of the SF2e melee weapons feel stronger
Like the doshko- I feel like d12 parry would not fly as a martial statblock

[rustic cape]

Some parts of it might but a lot wouldn't, yeah.

[warped orbit]

I do agree with that, yes

[steel blade]

The biggest issue afaik is that pf assumes the party is mostly melee while SF assumes everyone has at least some ranged capability

[warped orbit]

but that's part of what I'm trying to figure out

[turbid dagger]

And this is true but alsoooo
Paizos def intends some amount of mixing to go on
But until we have the sf gmg we can only guess at the degree

[rustic cape]

I think Soldier would translate but you'd have to either change some stuff here and there or let them use SF2e equipment more broadly.

[turbid dagger]

Like, sf gods have cleric spells
One of the sample castrovel chars is an elf

[warped orbit]

yeah, but that was why my initial stipulation was probably to let the Soldier use SF gear, but not give others access to it

[surreal basin]

I’d make new SF gear v rare like a big deal

I’d probably only alllow it in a specific circumstance

[true delta]

I'm ambivalent about Battlecry because I already told a player to use Minotaur/Droomar to fake a giant and he's gone done that.

[steel blade]

me running a modern fantasy game and allowing my players access to SF classes and gear on the grounds that we're just gonna call it magitech
one of my players deciding to play a pahtra, despite the fact that catfolk exist, and complaining about there not being many pahtra ancestry feats in the playtest

[echo briar]

Do souls from other planets/galaxies go to the same graveyard? Or are there local afterlives for each planet?

Because if everyone goes to the same place, then you should be able to interview the recent dead to learn about other planets and galaxies

[solar storm]

They segregate them by planet until they time out of rezzing to preserve cosmic mysteries

[shrewd bane]

Imagine there's like a bureau for this lmao

Like just a bunch of death gods arguing about who goes where after they die

Oh god

Oh GOD

Death DMV

[clever cobalt]

Whats the Magnetar rifles stats?

[turbid dagger]

Not for the planets or anything, but Pharasma and the Psychopomp Ushers do deliberate together for the ultimate fate of souls in the court

[turbid dagger]

Included the header so you know what numbers mean what

[clever cobalt]

Brb making a soldier

I hope they make a proper Pathbuilder version for SF2e

[turbid dagger]

The basic gist is that it's a d12 weapon you can either fire single shot at range 60 or as a 30 foot cone
Its definitely the strongest option for Soldiers that can get advanced weapon prof, especially since Action Hero has some pretty nice benefits for automatic weapons

I thiiiiiink I like fangblade melee soldier more but will have to see in play how disadvantaged or not a melee character is

[warped orbit]

Bombard is overall still my favorite Soldier sub I think

though Autofire weapons seem to have a slightly better selection than area fire

[turbid dagger]

Area fire weapons confuse me a little
Mostly in figuring out the expend for primary target attacks
Does primary target even expend more ammo?

[warped orbit]

I think so?

don't quite remember

[turbid dagger]

There are a few things that confuse me in the rules thusfar though only a few
Primary Target and the other ways Soldier uses AOE-only weapons as single target attacks, and also notably multiple arms
I know you can only wield weapons in hands that are active, but the rules text is a bit wishy washy about whether you can use non weapon items in them, and I'm pretty sure you are intended to be able to still do maneuvers and climbing and such with them, or at the very least they super duper dropped the ball failing to establish that you can't

[turbid dagger]

I diiiiiid manage to get my hells rebels GM to let me rock a doshko reflavored as an estoc for my fighter/soon-to-be-guardian

[carmine oyster]

Ah, Exalted

[true delta]

I've grown temporarily obsessed with creating hype moments from Zelda: Twilight Princess. Hence, there shall be goblin archers on daedons in my group's campaign henceforth. And one ogre on a daedon.

Maybe, a particularly large daedon, tbf.

[clever cobalt]

So, how would a Soldier get Advanced Weapon Prof?

At least for the Magnetar Rifle

[turbid dagger]

So uh
looks at index card
laughs nervously, swallows, coughs
wipes sweat off forehead
Bargain with your GM to let Unconventional Weaponry work

The advanced situation in SF2e is presently somehow even more dire than it is in PF2e

[clever cobalt]

So play a Human, got it

Oof

[turbid dagger]

I say that because Unconventional Weaponry mentions either an ancestry tag or common in another culture and the Magnetar Rifle doesn't like
Have lore
So a GM is well within their rights to not allow it
In which case there Literally Isn't a way to get full prof in it

I imagine as books come out there will be archetypes and such that pull a mauler or archer

[wooden orbit]

Daedon?

[turbid dagger]

An extinct mammal that basically looked like a giant evil pig

Also:
I've been working on a homebrew for the last few months that, among other things, adds quite a few weapons to the game, and I'm still working on said armory
I'm debating with myself whether SF2e's Boost is a thing that can exist in the Pathfinder 2e weapon environment and I'm sorta concluding it isn't?
At the very least boost values need to be a lot smaller across the board if I'm gonna backport the trait
Fangblade being a martial weapon slinging around d10 boost d12 backswing and such

[fossil dome]

Question:

What would the best AP for teaching a bunch of noobs be?

[turbid dagger]

I would say Abomination Vaults
Lots of very classic dungeon crawling, no weird subsystems, very fun

[fossil dome]

Sky Kings?

[fossil dome]

Guessing not Mythspeakers, lol

[echo briar]

Noobs to the system, or to TTRPGs as a whole?

[fossil dome]

The System

[echo briar]

Season of ghosts is very roleplay heavy, so it’s a fairly easy transition

[turbid dagger]

By all metrics no, that's correct
I am judging things by two sliding metrics of
'traditional pathfinder gameplay <---> deviation from standard gameplay'
'no subsystems <---> lots of subsystems'
Abom vaults is on the left on both, mythspeaker is far right on the second one, I don't know enough about sky king's tomb to say

[fossil dome]

A few options to pitch to my players would be nice

[turbid dagger]

Abomvaults, Sky King's Tomb is PROBABLY fine, I've not heard of any side systems its got going on
Shades Of Blood is an abomvaultslike, Triumph Of The Tusk has a weird level range but other than that might be a cool intro

[fossil dome]

Blood Lords?

[turbid dagger]

If your group is okay with that vibe, I can see it going great

It's a 1-20 so you are in for the long haul tho

[echo briar]

I will say, beginners box into an AP is a great teaching method

[fossil dome]

Kingmaker?

[surreal basin]

Requires a lot of work from the GM

[fossil dome]

In what sense?

[turbid dagger]

Im not sure id rec kingmaker at all
Its probably the most open world AP the system has and half of your sessions will be your players trying to understand an RTS/city builder that Isn't Pathfinder

[fossil dome]

Gotcha

[sturdy lagoon]

Kingmaker 2e was also a second party port and the kingdom system has unaddressed issues

[surreal basin]

Yeah it’s a weird thing

[fossil dome]

Any good high-level APs, whilst we're at it?

[turbid dagger]

Fist Of The Ruby Phoenix is a banger, or so I'm told

[fossil dome]

I'm already running it, lol

[turbid dagger]

Stolen Fate is a banger, or so I'm told

[steel blade]

I'm enjoying Prey for Death

[small meteor]

Aww.. I was super hyped for playing it toooooooo.

SilverOtter ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161695831775248426 message) Kingmaker 2e was also a second party port and the kingdom system has unaddressed issues

[fossil dome]

Still be

[wooden orbit]

Spore War?

[fossil dome]

What's the pull?

[turbid dagger]

So Treerazer, an extremely powerful demon who is essentially the disgraced heir of a Demon Lord, has been camped out in the backyard of Kyonin, the elf country, for centuries- this blighted wasteland is called tanglebriar and there's been an age long, low intensity conflict between the demons, corrupted plants, and fungal horrors of Tanglebriar and the elves of Kyonin since Treerazer arrived
You play beloved local heroes of Kyonin called to assemble to assist Kyonin in important diplomatic talks.... only for Tanglebriar to attack in force and make the war go hot
You become the most important assets in Kyonin's war against Tanglebriar, now with the goal of defeating their ancient enemies once and for all

[true delta]

Large boar, level 4.

[true delta]

It appears there is already a better explanation in the chat.

[wraith snow]

I'm late but I feel like Outlaws of Alkenstar is a solid AP choice for newer players

[sinful gyro]

Starfinder player core tomorrow 👀

[rustic cape]

Weapon Infusion is really good, huh?

Agile in melee, Thrown in 20 feet, Propulsive in 50 feet, and 100 foot top range

Just seems kinda amazing

Higher top range and get stronger the closer you get.

[echo briar]

How many more classes do you think 2e can handle before the shear bloat becomes a problem?

[rustic cape]

I think it could definitely become a problem, but I'm not confident speculating about when.

I don't think any extant or upcoming classes feel bad or indistinct, so.

It'll just happen when it happens.

[echo briar]

I don’t think it’s there yet, but if people start using SF classes frequently I think it could become a problem very soon

[rustic cape]

Possible.

[echo briar]

I think they already reached it with archetypes

But those are optional, so it’s not a huge deal

[rustic cape]

I think soldier is the only one that doesn't have a kind of equivalent in PF, so using the other SF ones could definitely feel bad.

[warped orbit]

it's pretty useful, yeah

getting thrown and propulsive on your blasts is pretty nice

as is the range when you need it

[rustic cape]

And agile!

It seems especially good for Earth kineticists, since they're gonna have high strength anyway.

[warped orbit]

I used it a good amount on my Earth/Wood Kinet

and got some good mileage out of having +3 Str

[rapid wagon]

BRB gonna see if my next character in my carrion crown game can be a solarion

[rustic cape]

Aye, that's exactly where I am in Season of Ghosts right now

[sturdy lagoon]

I personally think there aren't enough archetypes. But more specifically I just think there needs to be a lot more general concept, utility/non-combat archetypes. More professions and the like.

More stuff to go "yes, this is an active part of my PC even now"

[sinful gyro]

I do wonder how much bloat is a player / GM issue or a game design issue

[warped orbit]

it's kind of both

[sinful gyro]

Like, if you do your own game, you don't actually have to show players every class and archtype in the game.

You can limit it to the books relevant to your one.

Or for more experiened groups, you can trust your player to learn their class

[warped orbit]

on a player level, too much content can lead to analysis paralysis

on a design level, too much content makes it harder to make more in a system where you can combine stuff as much as PF2
though for classes, that's slightly less of an issue since you still control what's generally accessible via the archetype

[sinful gyro]

If I felt that was a concern as a GM, for example if it's all folks new to PF2e, I'd limit them to the core book unless they feel really strongly about something specific

[rustic cape]

Bear in mind how many people are playing with tools like Foundry and Pathbuilder, though

You can tell pathbuilder to do core only

But even so

[warped orbit]

it's also a topic I'm personally biased on, because I personally always dive into the full content roster for games like this

[rustic cape]

Likewise.

I think that a huge content roster is also part of the experience for games that have it.

[sinful gyro]

You can limit foundry to do the same to

[rustic cape]

That's just not a vibe most games can replicate.

[rustic cape]

TFW you realize that instead of taking Assume Earth's Mantle for +1 damage on some blasts, your earth/air/wood kineticist can take Desert Wind for +2 to +16 damage on more blasts.

[wary yoke]

The rarity system also gives GMs the ability to easily limit what they want

Like, they could say that certain classes are uncommon in their campaign if they want to limit it for whatever reason

[frank crystal]

Any archetypes or feats that relate to clubs?

I kinda wanna make a character based off Heathcliff Limbus company

[light gyro]

first combat as a rogue (6th level), crit succeed with precision damage, i understand now

obviously that guy is dead now and then i swooced through his buddy (tumble behind) at got them in a choke hold (crit success), then ripped them apart when they tried to escape (claw snag -> crit) FIFTY FOUR OF GOD'S OWN DAMAGE OFF-TURN

[wraith snow]

I'd also be interested in this

[vocal ember]

Not specifically, usually. I guess there's Takedown Expert and staff magus (twisting tree hybrid study).

Also I guess if I'm counting staff magus I should also count the Staff Acrobat archetype

[surreal basin]

Mauler mostly

If u use a two handed club

But nothing to my knowledge that is specific to them

[wraith snow]

Ah, shame, I was mostly interested because I was making a Cleric of Yamatsumi and I always like to use the favoured weapons when playing a religeous character

[frank crystal]

Ah, so just the generic stuff then

Unfortunate but fine

On their own they’re solid weapons

[warped orbit]

There's some good clubs

[warped orbit]

Ruffian Rogue could probably be good for this

[wraith snow]

Depends if they want a great club or not, since that doesn't work for Ruffian

[frank crystal]

Unfortunately I was kinda hoping to use a tetsubo

And ruffian rogues still can’t use 2 handed weapons I think

[rustic cape]

Playing around with Dual Classing again

To see what kinda nonsense Fuse Stance Kineticist can yield

[echo briar]

How good are the 1 handed SF2 guns?

Because that’s something that could actually tip the thaumaturge over the edge if you mix the two

[clever cobalt]

How so?

[rustic cape]

Thaumaturge's damage bonuses on rock-solid ranged weapons with a shield would be very strong.

[clever cobalt]

Yrue

[limber comet]

Starfinder Player Core pdf is out now!

[fossil dome]

Yooooo

Hype, hype

Well

I would be, if Paizo had reasonable Aussie shipping

Or a PDF-only subscription

[limber comet]

Oh you can just get the pdf now

The pdf is on sale now

[fossil dome]

Oooh

Is there an option to sub to PDFs?

[turbid dagger]

Speaking of SF releases
I got my grips on the Galaxy Guide and
This is why Lancer doesn't have a map,

[light gyro]

It's like they glued fifty games of mothership together

[true delta]

I wish Lancer had maps like this one.

I love me some maps.

[light gyro]

my GM thinks this ability is OP. (im not playing the kineticist) any second opinions? https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4287

[tribal steeple]

Two actions for 2d8+4 hp and a new save vs some conditions. Once per character per 10 minutes (so 1/ fight). It's a bottomless well of healing over time, but in combat everyone gets only one each and it's not an outstanding amount of HP on its own.

Bottomless well of healing is not only normal but sort of expected in pf2e (various focus spells that are also on a 10 minute cooldown, the entire medicine skill)

It certainly isn't more OP than Timber Sentinel.

At 6th level the tree directly soaks 30 points of strike damage as it's applied which is absolutely killer compared to 2d8+4 healing after you just ate that crit of 40 damage

[tribal steeple]

All this to say that no, it's probably not OP. Kineticists can be anti-attrition machines, but they pay for however good their impulses are with the fact that they're only able to use the handful they have selected, unlike spellcasters who can generally retool their spells for many more kinds of situations at the cost of only having X spells per day

[fast hill]

when is battlecry coming out?

if we know

today at gen con?

[wooden orbit]

Supposed to be today

[scenic patio]

It’s today I got it

[rustic cape]

A few kineticist questions:

1. Is there any way to put fire damage on an air/earth two-element infusion kinetic blast?
2. Fire's impulse junction reads: "Increase the damage die size of fire damage dealt by the impulse by one step." Am I right in thinking that wouldn't work with Weapon Infusion or Versatile Blasts if they're used to change the damage type?
3. How the hell does that work with Two-Element Infusion if the damage is split?

[wooden orbit]

Now to wait for Battlecry content to hit Pathbuilder, and for Starfinder 2E to update on DemiPlane so its no longer playtest material in the character creator.

[solar storm]

I think pathbuilder just updated

[frank crystal]

Nice

[rustic cape]

Yep, there it is.

[wooden orbit]

https://tenor.com/view/forrest-gump-running-me-when-im-late-tom-hanks-gif-5144739

Time to experiment with making a Jotunborn for the latest AP

[rustic cape]

Oh, shit, it comes late for multiclass, but Guardian gets Mighty Bulwark.

[light gyro]

1. fork the path lets you pick up fire at fifth level, if you mean fire/air fire/earth, otherwise i dont think you can add other things to a blast with official content so far
2. that's my RAW reading, though notably you dont have to change the damage type for weapon infusion
3. my reading is that you up the fire die when comparing which die to use, so if you had like a *3d6 fire die from upgrading, you'd have a 3d6 die for the resulting attack

[wooden orbit]

x-x I see Pathbuilder is still missing several backgrounds from Mythspeaker.

Or apparently decided to rename the backgrounds.

[solar storm]

Yeah that happens a lot on Pathbuilder

[rustic cape]

Given my GM rules that a single action blast can be used in place of a strike, Taunting Strike from Guardian seems fantastic for a tank kineticist.

[light gyro]

become the tree

[warped orbit]

They can't use any directly lore related names

So they have to rename

[wooden orbit]

Ahh

[sturdy lagoon]

Usually the patch notes will list which are renames

(pathbuilder will also sometimes remove Rare tags if the content in question was debatably rare due to an association with a specific person on Golarion)

[wooden orbit]

I gotcha

So what would be a neat archetype to go with Guardian?

[light gyro]

exemplar

[sturdy lagoon]

(that or I found a missing tag problem more than once)

[wooden orbit]

I was considering that one. Thinking a 2h build guardian and then Exemplar archetype, or another one, for Mythspeaker.

[wraith snow]

Soulforger is both fun flavour and just generically a very interesting option for martials imo

[true delta]

Does it make any sense to take Giant Instinct on a Barbarian of a Large ancestry? And: Are Large or Huge Weapons inherently stronger? Can a large PC automatically wield a large weapon? Pls send help.

My group's got such a character and I am much confused

[warped orbit]

larger weapons do nothing inherently (except being heavier and giving you clumsy)

only Giant instinct interacts with them, and it just enables their instinct stuff

[true delta]

Ah, okay

Thank you

[steel blade]

giant instinct just gives you some extra damage while wielding the larger weapon

[true delta]

Makes sense. Could it be reasonable to wait for battlecry, to check for specific weapons for giants?

[warped orbit]

wdym?

there are a few jotunborn weapons in Battlecry, but nothing super exceptional

[true delta]

Okeh

Much obliged!

[wraith snow]

Can't comment on the specific details of it, but one of the players I was in SoT with played a Giant Barb Conrasu and they were very useful

Plus it is a fun flavour

[true delta]

Wonderful. Thanks for sharing!

[rustic cape]

Giant barb is very strong.

And since barbs can hypothetically do heavy armor, they can still be on-target for AC for a non-heavy martial.

[desert vault]

I've have been having Thoughts about doing a bit of crazy homebrew for a pf1e game

for like a magic academy setting

what if we take out the spell slots and caster level, and play with them more
so everyone is like, level 6, but they can get access to higher level spells with certain conditions and expensive materials

so even if you're weak you could cast very powerful stuff, but you need prep time, money and magic circles

[sturdy lagoon]

So, making tons of custom rituals for high level spells?

Rituals seems like exactly the system you want

Time, cost, and lots of skill checks for a magical effect

Just make a million or design them as things come up

IIRC rituals can also require a condition to work

[echo briar]

Holy crap, blowgun has support.

A feat makes it 1d4 with deadly d4, and can be loaded and fired with one action.

It’s almost as good as a simple weapon now

[vocal ember]

maybe Blowgun Poisoner should just be an inherent feature of blowguns or something.

[rapid wagon]

isnt a blowgun actually a simple weapon that just has limited application

[sinful gyro]

20% discount on the paizo store for all pdfs older than 6 months

Neat

[warped orbit]

insane

[warped orbit]

it should be, because that's the only niche it has

[rapid wagon]

in real play, how is a poisoner? I remember someone mentioning that they're really hamstrung by incapacitation

[warped orbit]

Poison has it kinda rough, for several reasons

easiest way to do Poisoner is probably to just pre-poison someone's ammo, and just don't worry about it

[warped orbit]

those being mainly that Fortitude is a high save for a lot of monsters, and some just being entirely immune

[sinful gyro]

Man I'd forgotten how much the paizo website sucks

Like they really really need to do something

I know it's not easy

But please

[warped orbit]

soon™

[surreal basin]

Yeah they’re working on it

[surreal basin]

Toxicologist at least can do something about the latter issue

[craggy thunder]

yayyyy pathbuilder has commander and guardian

[wooden orbit]

Apparently we're getting another new ancestry soon. Comes with the Murder in Metal City kit.

If what I read on the product blurb on the Amazon page is correct, the new ancestry is plant people.

[rustic cape]

So my GM built this abomination: the shover https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=1193397

Guardian who takes everything shove related

She says that at level 20 it has +40 to shove and gets to roll twice, upgrades success to a crit, and deals 45 damage with the shove on said crit.

[clever cobalt]

Close enough, welcome back Caliban

[rustic cape]

Also, it's a guardian.

[solar storm]

https://tenor.com/view/merricktherox-subway-slammer-persona-5-persona-5-x-villain-gif-18232415511660955769

[craggy thunder]

wait is Guardian's KAS Str or Con?

It was Con in playtest, no?

[rustic cape]

Looks like it's Str.

They did juice up Guardian's offense somewhat since the playtest.

[warped orbit]

Guardian was always Str KAS

[craggy thunder]

cool

Also Guardian/Ruffian dual class might lowkey cook

Cuz Guardian has Shoulder Check

[turbid dagger]

Punishing Shove is pretty dang cool tbh
The cool combo I've always pointed at is Vanguard Slinger's formerly pretty mid reload

Which Shoves with the same MAP as your previous firearm strike

[craggy thunder]

commander also has incredible rogue juice with pincer attack

[craggy thunder]

I have amended my list of dual class builds so commander and guardian are in it

Commander/Champion, Exemplar/Guardian, Guardian/Ruffian Rogue, and Wizard/Commander

[warped orbit]

I think Investigator/Commander could be good too

[steel blade]

https://2e.aonsrd.com/

[echo briar]

Did SF2 get rid of missiles in the final release, or does nethys just not have them?

[steel blade]

it looks like it has all of the missile weapons that were in the playtest? there's only 2 of them, stellar cannon and reaction breacher

[echo briar]

no, the ones that where weird grenades

With how much love the grenades got, I would love to see what they did to the missiles

[steel blade]

oh, yeah, those aren't in player core for some reason

[echo briar]

Missiles are listed in the special materials section, so it’s probably a space thing

But oh wow, grenades just do like 14d8 at level 19

Up from 4d8

Now that’s a consumable

[rustic cape]

I want to be in a dual class game ;_;

[craggy thunder]

lol same

I just also make a stable of builds for every class in the game for base game, free archetype, and dual class

[wooden orbit]

OHMYGOD look at the Barathu!!!

[rustic cape]

I was playing around with Kineticist/Monk just for fuse stance the other day, it’s a weird combo.

[limber comet]

Dtarfindrr , ,,,

Starfinder,

[trim bluff]

playing 1e and i have a question: im struggling to land spells in combat a lot. my main source of damage rn is inflict moderate wounds (with an ability from the hierophant mythic path that lets me cast range touch divine spells with a range of 30 feet), but the -4 penalty into firing into melee is seriously hurting my ability to do that. i thought about taking precise shot, but the feat specifies "ranged weapon attacks" so i dont think it works, is there any way to get rid of this penalty

ok wait, doing research into it, apparently precise shot does work on spells? that feels very odd given the wording in the feat itself

its gonna be a lot of getting used to after playing basically nothing but dnd before this lmao

[wooden orbit]

@turbid dagger that new ancestry I mentioned before? Its the Khizar.

[turbid dagger]

.....Huh!
I didn't know what these were before now but neat

[trim bluff]

also, unrelated but same campaign, so far, kinda regretting taking spiritual weapon? im used to dnd where spiritual weapon is like. the spell to grab for cleric. but so far i havent really hit anything with it, maybe this is just our campaign but ac seems really difficult to hit and touch ac seems really easy to hit, i feel like im having a way better time just using those slots for inflict moderate wounds

[warped orbit]

it does, yes

you need Precise Shot if you plan on using any touch attacks basically

[trim bluff]

good to know, ill spend my next feats working towards that

im kinda putting a lot into inflict wounds here lmao
i grabbed a mythic ability that gives me advantage on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance
i grabbed 2 regular feats and a mythic one to give my necromancy spells a +3 bonus to save dc
and now im grabbing these as well

hmm, does point-blank shot add to the damage of inflict wounds?

[frozen flame]

It has been a while so I could be wrong but I don't think I am

No, because it's not a ray attack?

I don't think the Hierophant ability actually turns it into a ray, just lets it be used at range

Ultimately it's up to your GM. It does require a ranged touch attack (so you could argue it benefits) but it is not a ray so it isn't a weapon-like spell (so you could argue it doesn't)

Evidently I am wrong; it does, according to the FAQ from 9 years ago:

In general, special abilities that require attack rolls benefit and suffer from all modifiers affecting attack rolls even if those modifiers mention weapon attack rolls (such as the penalty for firing into melee, the bonus on attack rolls from Point-Blank Shot and inspire courage, and the like), unless the spell specifically calls out that it doesn’t apply them (for instance spiritual weapon calls out that it isn’t affected by feats and combat actions, but it would still have to deal with cover, and firing into melee if ranged).
When it comes to modifiers that affect weapon damage rolls, or simply “damage rolls” (such as the bonus on damage rolls from Point-Blank Shot, inspire courage, and smite evil), special abilities that deal damage on a successful attack roll, apply them on hit point damage only, and only once per casting or use, rather than once per attack. For instance, if a spell or special ability launched a dozen different ranged attacks simultaneously, only one (of the user’s choice) would receive bonus damage. This doesn’t apply on area effects with the rare potential for extraneous attack rolls, like fireball. However, there is a category of abilities that deserve a special note:

Abilities like Arcane Strike that specifically enhance a character’s weapon or weapons themselves never apply to special abilities (with the exception of special abilities like the warlock’s mystic bolts that specifically call out that Arcane Strike applies).

In the same vein as abilities like Arcane Strike that affect a character’s weapons, abilities that say “with a weapon,” “with a melee weapon,” and “with a ranged weapon” almost never work with special abilities because such wording is almost always used as shorthand for “manufactured weapon,” “manufactured melee weapon,” and “manufactured ranged weapon.” The exception is abilities that deal damage when a creature touches or hits you in melee (for instance, the occultis’s energy ward focus power), which should also deal damage when a creature makes a melee touch attack against you but rarely call them out directly.

Certain special abilities (for instance rays, kinetic blasts, and mystic bolts) can specifically be selected with feats like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical. They still aren’t considered a type of weapon for other rules; they are not part of any weapon group and don’t qualify for the effects of fighter weapon training, warpriest sacred weapon, magus arcane pool, paladin divine bond, or any other such ability.

Abilities that modify the action usage of ranged weapon attacks or require their own special action almost never work with special abilities, since special abilities require their own actions. For instance, Pinpoint Targeting wouldn’t work with scorching ray or the soundstriker’s weird words because each of them requires its own action to activate and thus can’t be part of the feat’s specific standard action. Rare exceptions include mystic bolts and kinetic blade, which can specifically be used as part of other actions.

[trim bluff]

ah, thats good to know

im glad it does

[echo briar]

Good news, we may finally know what an instance of damage is thanks to starfinder

If more than one weakness would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable weakness value. This usually only happens when a creature is weak to both a type of damage and a material or trait, such as a plasma doshko critically hitting a monster that has weakness to fire and electricity.

Bad news, the electricity damage that weapon deals is persistent, and so happens at a different time than the fire

which if that is what an instance of damage is supposed to be, persistent damage gets weird

I think persistent damage would only trigger weaknesses and resistances one time

[warped orbit]

that's mostly the same example it gives in PF2 as well

[warped orbit]

It should trigger the weakness each time it happens

[echo briar]

That is not what that example says

Because the damage happens at two different , but weakness is only applied once.

So why is weakness only applied once here, but not with later persistent damage?

[warped orbit]

I honestly don't know what they mean with that examples at all tbh

[echo briar]

the answer is that this was a error most likely, but it’s still the closest thing we have to a definition

[warped orbit]

Which might be because it's just the text from PF2 copied with only the name of the weapon changed

IMO the easiest and most sensical way to treat it is basically just you can trigger one applicable weakness for each type of damage, with tags on the weapon modifying only the physical damage portion

[limber comet]

New Myth-Speaker volume has some new stuff for Exemplar

The real standout is the death themed Dominion Epithet

[scenic patio]

I love to join a starfinder 2ed game

[steel blade]

as someone with an Exemplar, please tell me more about that epithet or just what else is in that book

[echo briar]

Any new ikons?

[limber comet]

No

[limber comet]

Some new AP specific ikon modifications

I like this feat

[echo briar]

Nethys is on a roll https://2e.aonprd.com/Default.aspx

[warped orbit]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7866

browsing through Guardian feats rn, and noticed this has no usability limits

which feels like an error

[surreal basin]

Yeah it's an error, it triggers when u reach half hp

[tribal steeple]

Skimming through pathbuilder, I'm REALLY liking the Commander class. Very well put together, brings a whole lot of value, and even doesn't leave out the spellcasters with its group attack actions by letting them use 2 action cantrips

Not infringing on the reaction martials (fighters always want to reactive strike) by giving them an extra reaction is great.

For lower levels I'm enamored by the mobility tactics that give climb/swim speeds, and the "everyone step 3x" is such a good positioning-fixer tool

[eager mountain]

yeah the map is a bit overly complicated

[eager mountain]

i just bought my pdf 😄

[sinful gyro]

Iiirc literally every expansion and adventure is gonna add ancestry

Ah sorry didn't mean to ping!

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo71wi9?Invasion-s-Edge-Player-s-Guide

There's also 2 new ancestries here for free

[wraith snow]

Commander + Air Kineticist seems interesting to me, total positioning dominance

[wooden orbit]

A ping? A PIIIINNNGGG?!
Hi

[sinful gyro]

Sorry about the ping!

[wooden orbit]

It’s fine!

[echo briar]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/epictellers/starfinder-afterlight?ref=e45g4g&utm_source=paizo&utm_campaign=launch&utm_medium=social&utm_content=announcement&dm_i=4XTJ,POWB,9FCGIV,32BYT,1

Star finder CRPG

[limber comet]

IT IS THE 2E RULESET

LETS FUCKING GO

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/shocked-gasp-cats-omg-gif-5986927

[wooden orbit]

https://tenor.com/view/ready-im-ready-running-spongebob-squarepants-gif-4184916

[clever cobalt]

Have the devs made anything notable before?

[wooden orbit]

Think this may be a group of new devs

[errant roost]

https://www.epictellers.com/about it's the only thing on their website

29 employees on LinkedIn, so a pretty small team

[echo briar]

I mean, it at least looks better than the pathfinder game

[clever cobalt]

I imagine there aren't any SF2e Character Builders yet?

[echo briar]

https://sf2e.hephaistos.online/

I think this is still the playtest material, but it should be updated soon

[trail nova]

God I love Hephaistos.

CompCon but for Starfinder.

[rustic cape]

Oh nice.

[warped orbit]

looked through Soldier feats a bit, and they seem largely unchanged from the playtest

which is good

if you can finagle a way to get proficiency, Magnetar Rifle Action Hero definitely looks pretty good

Bombard with a Stellar Cannon or Plasma Cannon too

[turbid dagger]

Fangblade soldier my beloved

[solar storm]

What is a magnetar rifle lore wise?

The name is a lil tricky to parse

[warped orbit]

there's not much flavor on it, it's apparently some kind of rapid fire rail/coil gun

[steel blade]

This rifle uses powerful electromagnets to accelerate simple slugs into deadly, highly accurate projectiles without the use of any moving parts.
its legitimately just a rapid rail gun

[warped orbit]

it's mostly notable for being

• a d12 weapon
• with decent range (60 ft)
• automatic
• and also has a good magazine size (30 rounds)

it's pretty much the best possible autofire weapon

[solar storm]

What does that have to do with magnetars haha

[steel blade]

magnet-AR

[solar storm]

Booooo

[turbid dagger]

Yeeee it just sounds like magnets

But looking up a Magnetar, I suppose it is comparing the powerful magnetic field of the rifle to a Magnetar star?
Like a Dodge Charger

Or Ram

[solar storm]

Yeah I get the sense it’s just to sound spacey and Very Magnetic

[echo briar]

Actually, it’s named after the inventors favorite Pokemon, magneton and tyranitar

[wooden orbit]

There’s DemiPlane and Hephaistos.
I’m waiting for Pathbuilder to add the classes and ancestries so I can make a Witchwarper PF2E pc

[rustic cape]

See this is just The Gun That Every Action Hero Wants

How can we finagle proficiency, btw?

[warped orbit]

convince your GM to let you use Unconventional Weaponry

[frozen flame]

Or wait for a Mauler-equivalent archetype that will give familiarity, possibly

[warped orbit]

not sure if there is any other way in the SF2 book for now

[surreal basin]

Convince your GM to let the fucking general feat make it scale with ur highest weapon prof

[warped orbit]

also that tbh yeah

[surreal basin]

It’s still ridiculous that it doesn’t

[rustic cape]

So, who else is on Team I Actually Really Like The Weird Proportions of Jotunborn?

[surreal basin]

Meeee :3

[rustic cape]

I enjoy that they look genuinely weird.

[surreal basin]

Also:

Thinking of making Warlock as a test bed for my idea of what that archetype should be

Which is to say: a class whose features you essentially build yourself out of pacts with upsides and downsides

[rustic cape]

Some sort of "pact warrior" is an interestingly absent class vibe in PF2e.

[surreal basin]

[rustic cape]

Pact magician is extremely well-covered.

[surreal basin]

Also fuck you im giving patrons paladin esque edicts and anathema they actively get in trouble for failing to observe

[rustic cape]

Sure, that works.

People play them that way anyway

I like that Witch covers the more traditional 3e/4e warlock vibe of "you got this power and now you can do what you want with it".

But since that's covered ...

[solar storm]

Living Vessel covers it a little bit yeah

[rustic cape]

But that's not really the 5e bladelock/pallock vibe.

[surreal basin]

Thinking about making it kinda like magus

Like a martial focused bounded caster

Except with your spell list being limited and entirely dependent on ur patron

Just spitballing rn

[rustic cape]

PF has a variety of niches not covered, it's just that this is a particularly popular one, so it's kinda interesting.

[fast hill]

wooo commander is out

I've been playing the commander playtest for a few months in this kingmaker campaign

excited to see the changes

gonna be a hot minute before it's on AoN

or the foundry

nope it'shere

[craggy thunder]

If you need a sounding board I am here lol

Warlock's relative nonexistence (outside thaum/witch dual class) has been a thorn in my side

[rustic cape]

It's also on Pathbuilder.

[fast hill]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Classes.aspx?ID=66

it's not on the foundry yet but it is on AoN

hopefully it'll be on the foundry in a few days because my GM promised me a full respec

[surreal basin]

Literally the first time that’s happened in like

2 years

[fast hill]

LMFAO yep

someone was excited for battlecry

[surreal basin]

Which I mean, I’m happy

If this means nethys is back to its usual self

[fast hill]

I'm sad they didn't remove strike hard

or rework it

as it is it's kind of the best use of 2 actions, especially if you build to focus on being an int character

[rustic cape]

Guardian's capstone feature is very funny

[fast hill]

I ASKED about using the reload tactic for siege weapons to my GM and they said they'd think about it

well now no more thinking about it

Your drill instruction kicks in, and your allies rapidly reload their weapons to prepare for the next volley. Signal all squadmates; each can immediately Interact to reload as a reaction.

Special When leading a siege weapon crew, you can use this tactic to command your squadmates to Load a siege weapon instead.

[warped orbit]

no, you also get Demoralizing Charge at level 7 now 😛

[fast hill]

oh yeah no for sure

we are just low level

it just kinda sucks that 2/3 of my turn is letting someone else do an attack

[warped orbit]

I mean, that is kinda what a lot of people want out of a warlord type class

including me

also it's a no MAP Strike, which is very good
especially since you can also still do a Strike yourself

[fast hill]

I like the movement and positioning tactics a lot more

but demoralizing charge is awesome

I think DC having extra stuff onto the strike is what makes it cooler

[surreal basin]

I mean

Just play suboptimally

If you don’t like spamming strike hard

[fast hill]

that's what I have ended up doing yeah

if I find myself adjacent to an enemy I end up just sticking to it and fighting them with my:
checks notes
+1 Strength

and stacking demoralize and feint

[surreal basin]

I don’t even think it’s actually that good tbh to spend 2 actions to make someone else strike most of the time

[warped orbit]

it mostly is, if you also Strike yourself

[fast hill]

I do not have good damage output and we have a high damage champion in the party

very high is a stretch

they aren't a fighter

the worst part of rapid assessment

is that I keep forgetting I have it

😭

thats the recall knowledge for free on initiative check

[craggy thunder]

Oh damn what

[fast hill]

yep

it gets crazy later on

like up to 8? recall knowledge checks

[warped orbit]

generally the basic Commander turn is you Set Up Strike/Guided Shot, and then Strike Hard/Demoralizing Charge
especially once you hit level 12 and get Fortunate Blow, which adds fortune to your Set Up Strike/Guided Shot

[fast hill]

8 creatures

[craggy thunder]

mfw mastermind stonks

[fast hill]

do u know about their warfare lore shenanigans?

[craggy thunder]

lolno

[fast hill]

commanders can use warfare lore in place of any lore skill, but only to determine:

1. If they can be reasoned with
2. Their most notable offensive abilities
3. What their weakest saving throw is

[surreal basin]

Idk I just feel like optimizing commander for damage is missing their potential personally but that’s just me

[craggy thunder]

But that still opens the door to the stonks

[fast hill]

Also as long as you can see an enemy, you can roll warfare lore instead of initiative

[craggy thunder]

Cuz that's still a Recall Knowledge, no?

[fast hill]

yeah

You can use Warfare Lore to Recall Knowledge about most creatures regardless of type, but typically only to determine whether they can be reasoned with, their most notable offensive abilities, and whether one of their saving throws is particularly weak.

[warped orbit]

I mean if you need to do something utility related, then yeah do it
but a lot of the time just getting some Strikes out is pretty much what you need

[fast hill]

also you can use warfare lore in place of deception for feinting

[craggy thunder]

I feel you, on the other hand I want to coordinate that one scene from JoJo where we all just jump someone

[fast hill]

which imo should be an option a lot of other classes get...

my character is very much not optimal as a commander

it's meant to be a psuedo martial with strength as it's second stat imo

but I took charisma as my +3 instead

[warped orbit]

you generally want either Str or Dex as your secondary, yes

probably Dex, because going ranged is much easier

[craggy thunder]

Or you can do a caster archetype and sprinkle in some spells

[warped orbit]

though a mount also helps a lot with melee

[surreal basin]

Honse archer

[craggy thunder]

Honscher

[warped orbit]

mount in general is useful because you have a hard time moving yourself and getting stuff done

[fast hill]

Yeah I have a mount

[warped orbit]

also your Commander companion can be a squadmate

[surreal basin]

Me currently listening to persona music and just imagining character just going “COME FORTH… HONSE”

[fast hill]

I strike hard and mount control

[surreal basin]

And just a horse

Walks into frame

[fast hill]

Been considering this

[warped orbit]

oh they only get independent companion at 10, huh

[surreal basin]

Man I really wanna play a character with Captain now

[fast hill]

Captain?

New archetype?

[warped orbit]

it gives you a humanoid companion

[fast hill]

Or

[surreal basin]

Archetype from battlecry that just gives u a guy

[fast hill]

OH PEAK?

[warped orbit]

basically just animal companion but it's a guy

[surreal basin]

2e leadership

Also I do respect them just going “yeah he can’t use ur items”

[craggy thunder]

Man

[surreal basin]

“No justifcation, he just can’t”

[craggy thunder]

Captain is perfect for my current character

[fast hill]

Dude. Fuck yes.

[craggy thunder]

Former member of the Ironfang Legion

[fast hill]

I need to check this out asap

Holy fuck

[surreal basin]

OOOOOYGH

EXEMPLAR WITH CAPTAIN

[warped orbit]

I'm not quite sure why Captain specifically locks you out of other companions though

[surreal basin]

Also a good option for captain: weirdly, summoner

[craggy thunder]

https://tenor.com/view/eurylochus-epic-the-musical-scylla-gigi-gigi-animatic-gif-547741513319466428

[surreal basin]

Actually companions in general

Now that I think about it

Because it skirts u and ur guy sharing map

[warped orbit]

the most interesting part to me about Captain is that one of the follower types is ranged

[vocal ember]

I think it's so that you don't up with one player who takes a really long time to do their turn

[warped orbit]

because I think we haven't had a ranged companion yet?

[craggy thunder]

Construct companion can get a ranged attack

And I'm sure there's an animal companion that can do some ranged thing

[fast hill]

I just went to my pathfinder campaign's discord server

pinged the party

and said

[surreal basin]

I think they just really don’t wanna mix the companions that are straight up guys with anything else

[fast hill]

"Are we ready for a new member of the party?" and linked the captain archetype

I'm so happy

battlecry was worth the wait

[warped orbit]

note if you are a Commander, your follower unfortunately can't do tactics unless you use Drilled to give them a reaction

[fast hill]

NOOOOOO

that's ok

[warped orbit]

since they don't get a reaction as a minion

[fast hill]

I am going to have my squire

aiui I can get feats to use drilled on multiple people

[warped orbit]

there's one that makes it work on two people IIRC

[fast hill]

oh my god I need this so bad

I've been needing people I can boss around

[craggy thunder]

XD

[fast hill]

like I can't really boss my fellow players around but I can tell my squire to fetch my sword

fighter captain would be so good

[vocal ember]

you know, some follower types do gain reactions, and at least on Aonprd there doesn't seem to be any restrictions on what you can use them for

[fast hill]

followers get reactions when directed

ome of them do

[vocal ember]

The shieldbearer starts out with one, the berserker gets with its exceptional advancement (so like 14th level or whatever)

[fast hill]

ye

[rustic cape]

Currently fighting a boss with a thousand hitpoints, AMA

[fast hill]

real sad that the followers cant use your items

I wanna give the sharpshooter a gun

[tribal steeple]

What's your team's strategy for defeating a boss with a thousand hitpoints?

[fast hill]

how long has it taken so far

I am assuming the plan is to stack as much persistent damage

[rustic cape]

We started the fight about 2 hours, 15 minutes ago, approximately.

[fast hill]

guh

[rustic cape]

Extreme violence. She's down to about 200.

We also have to manage a whole bunch of environmental debuffs on her.

She just did the "join me and wealth and power will be yours" and my character's response was, "come on dude, if you do your evil plan you'll still get fucked up by some incredibly powerful wizard at some point, we're just trying to stop you from killing a lot of people along the way."

[fast hill]

thing is that you cant really get the best versions of this feat with commander archetype for a long time, if at all

[craggy thunder]

tru, but I'm mainly thinking dual class

[rustic cape]

We fuckin' got her.

[craggy thunder]

gk I regularly post about dual classing in here lol

I think you are the only person who beats me out in regards to dualposting

[rustic cape]

I just like to play around with it in Pathbuilder occasionally.

[small meteor]

Bǎihé is going to have so fucking many dedications by level 20, isn't she?

[rustic cape]

If you don't plan to get at least four dedications by level 20, what are you even doing.

[small meteor]

We have ABP and FA too, but er..

We're using Staff Acrobat for leap nonsense, and then thinking Scout dedication for the 50ft move speed?

Captain would be good, but she has +2 to WIS, not CHA.

[frank crystal]

It’s not gonna happen for a bit because we got one mini arc before it happens but I’m gonna kidnap a PC soon!

A boogieman is gonna sneak up on their airship, shove him in his sack, and then run off

[small meteor]

The main issue is if we want our Lv.6 feat for her to be a class feat or a new dedication.

The main two feats we have in candidate is Flow of War and Reactive Strike, because Reactive Strike is hilarious.

[fast hill]

Fighter captain would be such a cool character concept

[frank crystal]

Chatroom, what’s a good name for a boogeyman?

I wanna make one a major villain

[clever cobalt]

The Figure in the Dark

[frank crystal]

Admittedly I’d prefer a proper name instead of a title

[craggy thunder]

lmao one of the players in my game who was on champ is switching to commander

[frank crystal]

Also I only now noticed that the official Bogeyman art has them smoking a huge cigar

That’s awesome

[frank crystal]

Oh neat, what are they going for?

[craggy thunder]

pretty standard mounted commander, save for her mount being a riding drake

Like her champ flavor was already 'knight astride a draconic steed, holding a bannered spear aloft and laying into her enemies with her blade'

[frank crystal]

Oh cool

[craggy thunder]

huh

war mage class arch for wizard

very interesting

[warped orbit]

it has some good feats in the archetype

the main downside is honestly that you are stuck with a very mediocre School

[craggy thunder]

And your weapon and armor proficiencies are

[small meteor]

She's an Exemplar now, but premise is the same. In fact, she's not a true Exemplar at all, she's a proto-Exemplar.

Atwcat (He/Him) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161695831775248426 message) Fighter captain would be such a cool character concept

[craggy thunder]

meh

but like

of course they're meh ur a wizard

[frank crystal]

Do they at least get medium armor?

[warped orbit]

IIRC they do yes

[frank crystal]

Good enough for me then

[warped orbit]

you get proficiency with martial weapons, and light and medium armor

[frank crystal]

Come to me my ceramic plate

[warped orbit]

they just still only advance at the normal rate for Wizard

[frank crystal]

I assume poor scaling on all of those though?

[frank crystal]

Ok yah

[warped orbit]

oh huh, their armor prof is actually very slightly faster
they get Expert at 11 instead of 13

[frank crystal]

Oh

That’s not the best still but alright

I’ll take it

Though even with martial weapons prof, you’re still probably just better relying on melee spells

[warped orbit]

also I should clarify I suppose
you technically don't get proficiency, you get "familiarity" which lets you treat martial as simple weapons (like the ancestry feats)

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

Does that really make a difference?

[warped orbit]

they have a feat to do this for advanced too IIRC

[frank crystal]

Oh that’s neat

[warped orbit]

they don't count as having proficiency with martial weapons for anything that requires it

[frank crystal]

Ah yah

Yah definitely best to just use melee spells then

[warped orbit]

you also get the ability to exchange any spell slot you have prepared for a Sure Strike

[frank crystal]

Also Chatroom, anything neat I could do for a NPC druid? My party may be fighting a lot soon

[frank crystal]

Ooo

Sure strike specifies weapon strikes right?

[warped orbit]

it does not

works for spell attacks

[frank crystal]

Oh shit

[warped orbit]

the downsides of War Mage are

• you have to pick School of Battle Magic
• you don't get a Thesis and you don't get Arcane Bond

[frank crystal]

That’s really good then

[frank crystal]

I mean… school of battle magic is one of the better ones lol

[warped orbit]

oh also you get Shield Block, forgot to mention

[frank crystal]

Oh that’s nice

[warped orbit]

ehh, kinda

especially with some of the newer Schools now, I'd say they are overall better mostly

[frank crystal]

Ah unfortunate

[small meteor]

On that note.. Is medium armour ever worth it?

[warped orbit]

yes

it lets you max out your AC with less Dex

[frank crystal]

Absolutely yah

[warped orbit]

if you don't have heavy prof

[frank crystal]

And importantly doesn’t have a speed penalty

So even with access to heavy armor it still has a niche

If mobility is ever an issue

[small meteor]

Hm, fair. Then again, this build is planning on getting 50ft move speed. >.>

Which, I have no idea if that's too fast for reason.

[warped orbit]

a few big things War Mage gets as archetype feats

• the dedication, when you cast an AoE spell you can move (Int mod) targets who failed their save by 10 ft in any direction
• when you cast a spell on an ally, you can Battle Medicine on them at 60 ft range
• spellshape that makes any targets who fail their save against your next AoE spell to also become Frightened 1 (2 if they crit fail)

[craggy thunder]

medium is unironically the best armor cat in the game imo

you can max your ac and not suffer penalties to stealth without maxing your dex, quite easily

[frank crystal]

It’s my preferred armor for strength characters

I get the appeal of heavy armor but I prefer to invest a little more into dex just to keep my speed maxed out

[craggy thunder]

god hobgoblin commander is going to whip

[frank crystal]

Why?

[surreal basin]

Yeah so something I don’t think people realize

Up until plate, nearly all armor is made equal

It just depends on what your dex is

But almost all armor with the dex capped out reaches the same AC

[frank crystal]

Yah, only super heavy armor actually gives you more AC then everything else

[craggy thunder]

hobgoblins get ancestry feats that really help shore up the out of combat side of being a commander

[frank crystal]

All previous armor tiers ask “how much do you want to invest in dex?”

[craggy thunder]

managing rations, forced marches, that sort of thing

as well as they get the int bonus

[frank crystal]

Half plate gives you the same bonus as medium but with less dex investment and the speed penalty

[frank crystal]

Oh that’s neat I didn’t think of that feat

[craggy thunder]

Also like

[frank crystal]

I was assuming it was breaching pike related

[craggy thunder]

nah lol

vibes and out of combat based stuff

though breaching pike is a good weapon for commander, especially if they're in a party that loves them some shield formations

[frank crystal]

Actually nvm all heavy armor gives 1 more AC then a maxed out medium and light armor

[craggy thunder]

god now you brought up hob weapons I'm thinking about phalanx piercer

and crying

[frank crystal]

God

Why is it

So bad?

Genuinely

Why the fuck would they make it so bad?

[craggy thunder]

It would be so goated if it was affected by literally any reload feat...

[frank crystal]

It’s just a composite longbow but you get reload 1 FOR RAZING

AND ITS AN ADVANCED WEAPON

YOU NEED TO INVEST JUST TO USE IT

Actually ITS WORSE THEN A COMPOSITE LONGBOW BECAUSE IT DOESNT HAVE DEADLY

[warped orbit]

the phalanx piercer could just not be reload at all, and it would probably be fine

[surreal basin]

Advanced weapons are so

All over the place

Legit probably the worst piece of design left in 2e

[frank crystal]

The least it could be better then the arbalest

[surreal basin]

Come on Paizo

[frank crystal]

Or the sukgung

[surreal basin]

Tell me how I’m supposed to get it

I’m waiting

How am I supposed to use this fucking thing

[frank crystal]

Be a human and also in a setting where they’re uncommon

[small meteor]

Hm. Thinking. Level 6 feat melee-biased exemplar, Flow of War, Reactive Strike, or Scout Dedication?

[frank crystal]

Also this convo is making me look at crossbows

And I’m not crazy the repeating heavy crossbow is objectively worse then the normal heavy crossbow right?

Like they’re both d10 ranged weapons with reload 1 but the repeater has the repeating trait so every 5 attacks you need to spend 3 actions to reload it

[warped orbit]

Heavy Crossbow is Reload 2

[frank crystal]

Oh yah

[warped orbit]

it's basically unusable

[frank crystal]

Missed that part

God yah