Pathfinder

[craggy thunder]

And there are trees big enough to support 7 foot branches irl, they just

don't

because that's horrendously nutritionally inefficient

I can drive 6 hours and see a tree that's got something like a 60 foot circumference

[astral prawn]

I loved Greens being the Chromatics closest to being Neutral and had some that flat out were LN and could even have scholarly relationships with Metallics that weren't violent

Given the Horned is virtually 1:1, I'm sure that's still relevant

[limber comet]

It is, it's highlighted in their little blurb

[astral prawn]

Mm

Also neat that Mimics made the jump to ORC

[frank crystal]

Ngl I kinda assumed they had like, rhino horns

[astral prawn]

They do

[frank crystal]

Oh

[astral prawn]

The pairs are just in a row

[frank crystal]

Oh cool

[limber comet]

I hope we get more folklore accurate hags

[eager mountain]

😄

-Jenny Jarzabski.

https://tenor.com/view/jane-the-virgin-jane-villanueva-wiping-tears-tears-of-joy-happy-gif-24438863

das beautifal

[wooden orbit]

I think you mean Diabolic Dragon not infernal

I really REALLY love how weird the Golarion dragons are getting. I'm sucker for the weird designs. Not surprising given how much I liked the Elder Dragons in Guild Wars 2

[echo briar]

All known chromatic dragons have been remastered primal. Do you think this pattern will hold for the blue dragon?

That one strikes me as a clear occult, or maybe arcane dragon

[rustic cape]

Arcane would fit better with the lightning powers

[echo briar]

I could see them changing breath weapon.

Copper dragon is occult

So either it has the same damage type anyway or they changed the type

[astral prawn]

Blue I can see being made into Primal easy

[upbeat ridge]

are suli still cannon post remaster?

[desert vale]

Like. Should age categories still be a thing for dragons?

[turbid dagger]

Jann are still canon, so I must imaine so

[upbeat ridge]

ok

[light gyro]

graaa clawdancer looks so cool. even when im not theorycrafting a monk i end up theorycrafting a monk

[rustic cape]

Clawdancer Fighter looks quite solid imo

[light gyro]

this is for a thief rogue, with picks for capitalising on trip and grab

[rustic cape]

Nice

Love Thief rogue

[fossil dome]

So, uhhhhhhhh

https://mod.io/g/baldursgate3/m/pathfinder2ndedition#description

This exists

[rustic cape]

Yep, technically still WIP but an absolutely wild project

Has a couple of provisos: the prepared casters have to be flexible casters for hardcoding reasons, and because of the sandbox nature of the game proficiency does not scale with level

Druid, sorcerer, and champion are iirc the main core classes still being worked on

[fossil dome]

Which is an optional rule anyway, so technically still RAW

[rustic cape]

Oh, and no multiclassing/archetypes implemented yet

[fossil dome]

Fair enough

I honestly have no desire to play the mod, I just love the subtle jibe it represents

[rustic cape]

It looks really impressive to me

I'll probably try it at some point

TBH what seems wildest to me is the necessary monster redesign that must have been done if this is ostensibly playable

Which, while the author notes the fights are still probably not balanced, they claim it is

[frank crystal]

Can you do charisma actions like intimidate and bon mot while in a combat form?

[steel blade]

you can't speak in a battle form unless specified otherwise(or at gm discretion)

[surreal basin]

If uve got intimidating glare I guess ur good to go tho

[frank crystal]

👍

[frank crystal]

Can bayonets and butt stocks be used when not attached to a firearm?

[warped orbit]

don't think so?

but why would you?

[frank crystal]

I’m not sure tbh

[wooden orbit]

Bayonets can, yeah. Like I've had a bayonet attachment before (Dude that was dating my mom at the time thought it would be a neat gift for two military brat kids) and they do have hilts on them for you to hold.

[frank crystal]

Oh you mean actual bayonets

[wooden orbit]

Oh, didn't know they were attachable or existed in PF2E

But yeah, real bayonets can be taken off and used in your hand.

[frank crystal]

Yah that’s why I was curious if they could in game

Also yah I was finally able to look it up

Bayonets specifically can be used when not attached

Though like Alaen said, there’s no real reason to

It’s the worst knife in game by far

Doing d4 P with no tags

Not even finesse or agile

[warped orbit]

Reinforced Stock is also generally better

Especially with the 2h buff it got

[frank crystal]

Oh wait it does have finesse and agile

[frank crystal]

Though yah probably

D8 bludgeoning is better then d4 agile finesse

Though, dual wielding bayonets on pistols

Idk if it’s good but it sounds very funny

[warped orbit]

It's a funny thing with Drifter

[frank crystal]

Though the bayonet being finesse does mean you’re probably more accurate with it then the reinforced stock

[warped orbit]

Stock is also finesse IIRC

[frank crystal]

Oh yah it is

Nvm

So agile is the only real benefit of the bayonet

Kinda wish you could improve it to d6 with 2 handing

But maybe a short sword might be a bit to strong for basically free with fire arm and crossbow builds

[astral prawn]

One player I have is running an Arquebus Vanguard with a reinforced stock, truly skilled they are at cracking skulls

[frank crystal]

Do they use the gun more as a gun or more as a club?

[astral prawn]

Yes

(They're out of bullets atm)

[frank crystal]

Hell yah

[astral prawn]

They got some alchemical shots left but they need a proper resupply

[warped orbit]

This is why you take Munitions Crafter

Alchemist Dedication could probably also do it

[astral prawn]

They have that, they've just burned through their supply and not restocked yet

[frank crystal]

Are they like in the wilderness right now?

[warped orbit]

they went through their entire supply for the day?

since if you use all your reagents on ammo, you make like 16 shots plus an extra 4 every two levels

which should be more than enough to last a day

[desert vale]

reads different hell knight orders interesting

They are pretty terrible

But also interesting

[frank crystal]

I’ve yet to see a hell knight order that isn’t super evil tbh

I know they’re meant to be like, LN and just enforce the law

But they really do just seem like lawful assholes

[desert vale]

Pretty much. The Order of the Scourge seems least bad? But only saw the overview

Hmm. Looking at Pathfinder 1e hardcovers. And. I seem to he missing more than I thought. Will have to look harder when I visit parents house.

Up to 16 hardcovers I dont have for 1e

And I think I have a few of them but not removing them from list until certain

And. I made the decision to buy some Starfinder 1e which I will probably never get to?

[silver geyser]

Order of the Gate comes to mind.

[frank crystal]

Who are they?

[warped orbit]

I find the Godclaw very funny and interesting

Like how does their pantheon even work

[clever cobalt]

Isn't there an Order of Hellknights who allied with Ravounel?

[frank crystal]

Who’s that?

[clever cobalt]

I believe the Order of the Torrent

Who hunt kidnappers and slavers

[wooden orbit]

Yeah, Order of the Torrent is the one I’ve always seen as recommended for lawful good Hellknights

They also have a black and blue color scheme instead of the usual black and red

Order of the Godclaw is the Hellknight order that was heavily involved in the crusades against the demons of the Worldwound, and are a polytheistic order, and kinda lean good? Kinda

Kinda wondering who’s the least evil (assuming Starfinder 2E is still using alignment) of the Post-Gap Hellknight Orders

[craggy thunder]

They... have specific invasive mindreading spells lmao

[wooden orbit]

Look sometimes you just really need to be able to find the lawbreaker

[craggy thunder]

jesus lol

[frank crystal]

You have to understand

[wooden orbit]

Was Gate the one that was really loyal to Cheliax, or specifically founded by their royal family, or am I thinking of another order

[frank crystal]

The spell that breaks the victims perps mind is essential to root out chaos in society

[frank crystal]

Being loyal to Cheliax at all stops them from being anywhere near good lol

That country is partially run by literal devils!

From hell!

[wooden orbit]

I know, I’m just trying to remember if it was Gate or not. Cause I know one order is kinda loyal? And another was founded specifically by the queen at the time because she was pissed that the Hellknights in general refused to become yoked to one state.

[surreal basin]

Yeah all the hell knights suck pretty bad

[wooden orbit]

Only the Order of Torrents is an exception

[surreal basin]

There’s the ones that burn books

[frank crystal]

Also it is very funny to me one of the few actually good hellknight orders doesn’t even use their normal color scheme

[surreal basin]

They at least don’t kill people I guess

[frank crystal]

And instead goes for a very traditionally heroic blue and white

They don’t even wanna be associated with the other orders

[wooden orbit]

Because they sided with the rebels, and they’re all about finding and dealing with kidnappers.
Yeah, they’re vouched for by the Silver Ravens, and the people of Kintargo

Think whenever I make my Starfinder 2E pc, one of them is going to be a member of the Order of the Eclipse

[silver geyser]

OK, I remembered the wrong Order. It's not Gate

It's Order of the Scourge that's pretty alright.

Yet their members know that the line between criticism and chaos can be thin, as can the boundary between those who defy laws righteously and those who willfully break them. As such, whenever possible, these Hellknights work within the law, defying the literal interpretation of only the most broken or unjust regulations—and, even then, usually only after hours of meditation and reckonings.```

[surreal basin]

That’s kinda raw actually

[turbid dagger]

Torrent, Scourge, and by barest margins Pike are 'the chill ones' in my brain
Pike less because of any moral difference and more their purview somewhat precludes their getting up to sus shit
As they are fairly straightforward monster hunters

[wooden orbit]

Godclaw is kinda chill

[surreal basin]

Hellknight of the Scourge who abandons cheliax wholesale when they start this unlawful war

[wooden orbit]

Tbf, Order of the Scourge isn't beholden to Cheliax to start with

[turbid dagger]

That's likely to occur, I feel
It was outright stated several of the orders would refuse to nationalize in Battlecry, and the Scourge are so mistrustful of Thrune that they've been building a hidden escape tunnel in their HQ to a secondary fortress

[wooden orbit]

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Order_of_the_Glyph

Here's the Order founded by the Thrunes

I imagine Abrogail II will probably expand the Order of the Glyph during or after the war, since right now they number thirty Hellknights or less.

[clever cobalt]

Depends on how the war goes

[desert vale]

tries to imagine non evil versions of some other orders
Order of the nail as really hardcore park rangers?

[frank crystal]

Hmm, do y’all think for a dual weapon barb to go agile or no agile?

[clever cobalt]

Agile removes Rage damage iirc

[craggy thunder]

it reduces it

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

No agile regardless

[craggy thunder]

go with an agile offhand just so you're more reliably hitting imo

[clever cobalt]

I briefly had a Fighter/Barbarian dual class with Dual Giant Falcatas

[frank crystal]

It halves specifically I think

[clever cobalt]

It was uh

Pretty good

[frank crystal]

Yah dual falcatas seem

So fun

Even if the fabled double crit is very unlikely except vs enemies that it probably doesn’t matter against lol

[clever cobalt]

I was level 8 and consistently doing ~100 damage a turn

It was great

[frank crystal]

Jesus lol

[clever cobalt]

I was a boss killer, to say the least

[turbid dagger]

What I'd do for dual barb is absolutely ditch agile and go dww for double slice
The -2 is worth the extra damage

[frank crystal]

[echo briar]

The first one is any Chinese dragon, and the last one is yoshi

[craggy thunder]

not really what he means but

2 could be Velstrax, if we're being charitable

also iirc Shadow of the Colossus has a dragon like the last idea being proposed

[desert vale]

Yeah fair, mostly posted it because they have been doing more things with dragons lately

[warped orbit]

Valstrax does have turbines

[keen raptor]

There's also Monster Hunter's Paolumu.

[loud canyon]

orb

[turbid dagger]

These are indeed both just monhun monsters

[clever cobalt]

I know a place to find plenty of art for the last one

[rustic cape]

No agile

I've seen it in action

Dual slice barb is rad

[frank crystal]

Yah that does seem to be the consensus

Double falcatta it is

I will roll 2 crits

Watch me

[rustic cape]

I will say, the higher your rage damage bonus, the more you have to lose by going agile

[astral prawn]

They are trapped beneath the city, and have levelled up and basically not rested since they fell beneath the city in session 1

[frank crystal]

Oh cool

[astral prawn]

Also I've got a Player looking at Scion of Domora https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=202 and it's looking very heavily unbalanced

I'm tempted to just let them have the Familiar but otherwise ban the Archetype? That or scale the feats down

[echo briar]

What feats in particular do you think are op? Because looking over it everything seems fine.

It’s all decent, but it requires your familiar, which can be killed in like 1 or 2 hits

And even if you ignore the familiar and never attack it, nothing really seems game breaking.

Like situationally better power attack is nice, but for a level 6 feat I think that polearm user deserves that extra 1.5 on average and ghost touch

[echo briar]

I need help balancing homebrew. This is for season of ghosts, so all relevant lore stuff has been removed. level 3, +1 ghost touch spiked gauntlet 1 action, command, interact, frequency 1/day Attempt to grapple one creature within range. If the target is incorporeal, treat the check as 1 degree better. If the grapple succeeds, the target takes 1d4 persistent vitality damage on a hit, or 2d4 on a crit.

Please note, despite the name, you only fight like 3 incorporeal creatures in season of ghosts

[surreal basin]

hmmmmmmm

[strong sonnet]

strictly speaking, ghost touch is a level 4 property rune

but like 70% of the time (in a normal campaign) this is just a +1 spiked gauntlet, which is not a very relevant weapon type usually

[surreal basin]

so what i did for this item was allow its original activation to spread to another item

a held item like a weapon to be clear

[echo briar]

The thing is I have a free hand fighter

A ghost touch gauntlet can actually be useful

[strong sonnet]

gotcha
It feels around right for a level 4ish item, to me, maybe 5 but that seems like a stretch
ghost touch plus an extra effect that focuses it harder on its niche

[astral prawn]

Zon-Shelyn is apparently like Garnet

[solar storm]

Can see the future?

[astral prawn]

Can separate into ZK and Shelyn

And are individuals while also being Zon-Shelyn

[wooden orbit]

It's also had a marked influence on both of them, which is a big positive for Zon-Kuthon

[rustic cape]

It is very funny that the response of her girlfriends to Zon-Shelyn was "omg goth gf"

Perfectly reasonable

But also very funny

[warped orbit]

Based

[stuck bane]

That answers the most important question I had about Zon-Shelyn

[surreal basin]

Out of curiosity what’s the source on this

[wooden orbit]

Galaxy Guide

[echo briar]

level 5, alchemical, bomb, 30 gp. 
On hit, the target loses concealed, or becomes concealed if they are invisible for 1 minuet, or until they spend 3 manipulate actions to remove the glitter. They must also make a DC 20 fort save or become dazzled for 1 round.``` Turns out there isn't any anti invisibility bombs

[novel merlin]

Is this just consumable revealing light?

[warped orbit]

Having to hit first makes this kinda awkward

[frank crystal]

Looking at it more closely, it’s shocking wights haven’t taken over the world yet

They have classic zombie style raising the dead of everything they kill

But they’re also intelligent and use weapons and armor

The only real problem is that wights tend to raise weaker wights then themselves and they come raised in a weakened state

But that weakened state is still decently strong

[turbid dagger]

I expect a lot of them in the grave lands at least

Though wight spawn can only make more wights after a month

[frank crystal]

Where does it say that?

I see they’re clumsy and can’t drain life until their master dies but I don’t see anything about the month

[vocal ember]

Remastered wight has that, old wight doesn't

[frank crystal]

Oh

[surreal basin]

I mean I guess there’s your answer to why

[turbid dagger]

The old version notes that it can't make spawn, and the remaster version notes it can't inflict the condition that makes you turn into a spawn on death

[frank crystal]

oh wait, I was looking at the higher level wights

the cairn wights and wight commanders

who dont have that restriction

[light gyro]

Looking like two more sessions til we finish off Strength of Thousands. Definitely bit off more than I could chew as a GM I think - even with 4 years of 5e experience.
Lots of fascinating ideas, but I think it loses cohesion early on. Conceptually awesome villain but not enough presense in the story overall.
Introduces shit loads of npcs but doesn't lend enough assistance in running them.
Needs more dungeon-ass dungeons imo.

[rustic cape]

"The wightpocalypse" is an old humorous observation in D&D 3.P communities :D

[light gyro]

westeros lacked a viable population of their natural predator (the god-enabled murder hobo) (they had like two max) and it almost ended every other species.

[rustic cape]

We're coming up on the final session for the SoT game I'm in. I joined at level 12, right as the party heads over to ... the name escapes me, the city with the Bright Lions and Walkena and whatnot. In retrospect, that was my favorite part of the AP.

Mzali?

[light gyro]

Mzali's the one. Loved the ||dungeon|| afterwards, and the setup and concept are really good but I think the diplomacy section was a little long in the tooth. But my preferred style of play is being pressed to use resources. It took us like four sessions I think?

[rustic cape]

I enjoyed the diplomacy section, personally

[frank crystal]

Oh I’m glad I’m not the only one who’s thought these guys could take over the world

[echo briar]

TBF, it’s the most commonly changed part of the book. There is a decent chance your GM changed it.

Because RAW it’s || a chapter long influence encounter, except each check takes like a week so you can’t even RP the whole thing. It just devolves into rolling dice||

[surreal basin]

That was ultimately my takeaway tbh

Alongside “not actually the magic school AP”

Since you spend maybe 2 books there lol

And one of those books you’re playing cop in the surrounding city

[wraith snow]

Yeah, when the group I'm part of ran it, it was pitched as "the magical school campaign" and it definitely made the later parts painful

[surreal basin]

Tbh

I only ran the first 3 books

And then my group dropped it

[astral prawn]

I love the look of the AP, but sucks that it doesn't seem to fit that fantasy

[surreal basin]

I really think it’s crazy it’s such a heavily recommended AP when you need to be an experienced GM who is comfortable with making a lot of changes to get a good experience out of it

Imo

[wraith snow]

I feel bad for one person in particular because they joined off the school game pitch a few months into the game so they got like 3 weeks of what they signed up for

[surreal basin]

Damn yeah that guy got scammed :p

[wraith snow]

Plus there was just generally the issue of by the time late game rolled around we were being asked to do international diplomacy and almost every player intentionally made a dumb teenager

[frank crystal]

Fuck

[astral prawn]

Tbf they should've aged up to adults during play, the AP does take place over a few years

[wraith snow]

A dumb 19 year old instead of a dumb 17 year old doesn't actually change the math that much

[astral prawn]

Ngl part of the problem sounds like they didn't make the right characters for the AP?

[wraith snow]

Plus 2 of the characters were under a year old chronologically speaking

It's more that the GM who was running it misrepresented the AP based on the first few books

They fit great at first

[astral prawn]

Like the AP should take place over 5-10 years by reddit Gm's estimates?

[surreal basin]

U good?

[wraith snow]

and the players guide (at least imo) doesn't do a great job of informing what the players should expect

[frank crystal]

Oh I was just responding to this

I’m fine

[astral prawn]

And yeah they would fit great at first, they were fresh-faced students

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah okay

[wraith snow]

Which is an issue for, you know

[frank crystal]

Yah sorry for the confusion

[wraith snow]

The document intended to set player expectations for the AP

[surreal basin]

Yeah no I’m gonna be real this isn’t even the GMs fault

This is the AP

the AP presents itself as the magical school AP

and then does like 3 books worth of random bullshit go

[astral prawn]

Yeah what do you think you do at a school? Stay stupid and irresponsible?

[wraith snow]

Have you been to university?

Yes, yes I do think that

[surreal basin]

…. Yeah that’s

That’s fair

[astral prawn]

Okay so

Just have a better GM I guess?

Like sure the AP can have issues

[surreal basin]

Eh, it’s not an easy one to run lol

Like it’s easy to say that but

[astral prawn]

But one of the problems you mention is "The players made dumb teenage characters and stayed that way" and that's somehow the AP's fault?

[wraith snow]

Nothing about how the AP presents itself to players suggests that they should expect to experience a lot of the content that defines the back half

[wraith snow]

The AP should probably at least attempt to establish expectations in regards to what the players should expect, I think the players guide for SoT is explicitly very bad at doing that

Compare to say, Bloodlords, which lets you know where things will head and lets players plan accordingly

[astral prawn]

Like a quick glance at the Player's guide, pretty sure it tells you that you'll be taking on greater responsibilites and graduating from being students

And that it'll likely take place over many years

Did the players genuinely expect to end the campaign as Level 20 teenage students?

[wraith snow]

I think there's a strong gap between 'taking on greater responsibilities at the magic school' and 'international diplomacy and interplanar travel'

the expectation among players at least at initially was that late game would be more of a transition to a mentorship role, not effectively ignoring the school entirely for several books

[echo briar]

What else where they expecting at level 20?

level 20 campain, a witch finding her cat in the alps rain forest

[astral prawn]

Probably needed some help from the GM actually selling what the Magaambya is all about, they're not school-bound scholars, they're explicitly meant to and expected to go out and share their talents, spread magic, and learn from the places they visit

[echo briar]

Hell, the main mentor figure and defacto head of the school is Janatimo, who is explicitly not on campus most of the time

Book 2 is explicitly regarded as an unusually long stay

[astral prawn]

You're not wrong about the school largely getting back-burnered as things get more intense I'll give you that, I'm just baffled at the idea these players seemed like they were expecting to be students for levels 1-19

[wraith snow]

It's possible to write major events, cataclysmic that are also closer to home. It's not hard to imagine how a school that produces powerful mages could attract dangerous circumstances and the players need to fight to protect something they're invested in

And again, it's not that the expectation was that the characters would be students forever

[echo briar]

and they are to do that as dumb teenagers?

[wraith snow]

It's that the school would be involved at all

[astral prawn]

Only a handful of teachers even breach the double digits

[wraith snow]

This is true, however, this is not something I would argue is clear to players before the game has begun based on the resources provided

[surreal basin]

I really think the dumb teenagers thing isn’t worth getting stuck on

[astral prawn]

Then it's also on the GMs to properly set expectations if they feel the players aren't getting it, player guides are generally useful but not the one tool needed

[desert vale]

I guess this is why they started three book adventure paths

[surreal basin]

ALRIGHT MOVING ON

I gotta figure out what to fill my extra dimensional celestial vault with

[astral prawn]

Yeah 3 books are way better

[astral prawn]

Who made the vault? Why did they make the vault?

[wraith snow]

That is why I mentioned that the game was misrepresented, yes

[astral prawn]

And what level are the PCs

[surreal basin]

Without getting too deep into the lore of my setting, Heaven created the vault as high security storage

It…. Could also be a prison

16

It’s a big deal

[astral prawn]

High level fiends for sure, maybe a fallen celestial or two

[echo briar]

Vault breaking equipment. Can't break into this or any other vault if all the equipment in the world is in this vault

[surreal basin]

But it would be the “trapped in a bare room for 10000 years” kinda prison

[astral prawn]

Or even chaotic-flavoured outsiders who aren't particularly evil, but Heaven is more lawful

[surreal basin]

Oooo some proteans being sealed away for being too disruptive would be neat

[astral prawn]

And decided that an Azata flying around saving people is too disruptive and locked them in the nightmare dimension for 10 milennia

But proteans would generally fit better

[wraith snow]

Depending on context surrounding it, something that got in without permission to either steal or release something but themselves got stuck could be a fun angle

[echo briar]

What if it has nothing in it? what if the point of it is to trap thieves dangerous enough to break in?

[wraith snow]

a dangerous/powerful living weapon could be interesting

Though I mostly say that because I know players can be baited into making unwise decisions for interesting loot

[surreal basin]

Oh that’s a good idea for a room at least

[echo briar]

A prophesy told them to build this vault, as some horror would form there, but then the age of lost omen happened and no one want to risk opening it to see if it actually happened

[surreal basin]

That’s the thing they’re there to steal already actually!

Oh, LIVING

[wraith snow]

One of the players in a game I was in was secretly using the battlezoo living weapon ancestry and managed to keep it secret till the literal last session

There's a lot of neat things you can do with the concept, imo

[surreal basin]

Hmmmm okay so

12 and 13 are big arc numbers in my setting

The vault is an extra dimensional space that links 12 normal “safes”, little pocket bubbles meant to contain a specific thing each, with a 13th core bubble to contain the vault core that has the weapon they’re after

Now I just gotta figure out what they need to do to open that 13th safe

[astral prawn]

For maximum security; all other vaults must be opened, emptied, then resealed

The 13th is keyed off the metaphysical idea that the Vault as a whole "holds something", by rendering it so that it "holds nothing", the 13th safe will simply open

It is not enough to just open and close, all safes must be barren; this not only makes it harder to pull off in short order, but gives Heaven more time to react and intervene

[surreal basin]

Hmmmm maybe but idk if I wanna like…..

Force them to explore the whole thing

But it’s a good idea if I can’t come up w something else

[rustic cape]

Oh, yeah, she definitely changed it

We met with a whole bunch of people and talked to them and did them favors

I really pissed off the big army guy at a party by pointing out that his xenophobic metaphor did not make sense

[surreal basin]

Oh you know what

[rustic cape]

Dude was talking about "pure steel" and my character started babbling about how steel is an alloy and especially good steels have all kinds of trace metals

[surreal basin]

I can do a lore thing as the puzzle

To open the vault

[light gyro]

My party were not a fan of him, shockingly. ||I swapped some stuff around so the party fought him at the climax of that book instead of worknesh||

[wraith snow]

Out of curiosity, does anyone here have experience with the Stolen Fates AP?

[echo briar]

I played it. it was very good.

[clever cobalt]

I only got to play the First book, but it was pretty fun

[surreal basin]

Yeah, I finished it

As part of a 2 parter with gatewalkers

[turbid dagger]

I
Really want to play a druid
But man I don't like prep casting.............

[frank crystal]

Do just want primal spellcasting or druid specifically?

[turbid dagger]

Druid has a lot of really good focus spells, medium armor, 8 hp per level, shield block, the best list, decent feats
But its prep

Druid is unironically tankier than Rogue is while having full caster scaling
Its neat

[frank crystal]

Hmm

Then yah idk how to like

Replace prepared casting

[turbid dagger]

I guess I'm trying to, like
Mentally sell myself on prep casting

[frank crystal]

You do get more slots

[turbid dagger]

You don't
Sorceror and Oracles have the most slots of the casters, at 4 per rank

[frank crystal]

Oh

Nvm then

[turbid dagger]

😭
The sort of 'intended' advantage is that prep casters, with foreknowledge, can get the perfect spell for most situations, whereas spont has to rely on a fixed stable of general use spells
But
Foreknowledge

[frank crystal]

Ok so what you do is buy the campaign book your group is running

But also you can always focus on upcasting spells

There’s a lot of good low level primal spells

[surreal basin]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=99

This is the best ur getting

Basically sacrificing your 3rd spell slot in each rank in order to play with 5e prep rules

[warped orbit]

Wizards technically get the most slots, but only by utilizing their specialist slot, Drain Bonded Item, and potentially also Spell Blending

[rustic cape]

I think this is not quite right

Prep casters have two big advantages imo

(a) much more flexible upcasting

(b) ability to pad out your memorized slots with more Things Spellcasters Can Do

[warped orbit]

the upcasting is a big one, yeah

[rustic cape]

Which is especially good at later levels when lower-rank slots become more focused on debuffs and utility

It's not even about leveraging foreknowledge

That's good too but

You just have the opportunity to carry around whatever combination of Weird Shit covers the most bases at any given level

[frank crystal]

Hmm, how would be the best way to build a fleshwarp monk who’s kinda a sorta, writhing mass of monsters in a humanoid shape

like Nero from melty blood

https://tenor.com/view/tsukihime-melty-blood-melty-blood-actress-gif-23004294

[wraith snow]

You could maybe do something with the grafting mechanics added in the wilds book

And reflavour them as mutations

[frank crystal]

Oh yah that’d be cool

[wooden orbit]

Did...did one of those heads come out of where I think it did?

[frank crystal]

Yes but the dude isn’t actually a human in anyway that matters

His anatomy past his head is just a black mass in a humanoid shape

[wooden orbit]

https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/starfinder2e/character-sheet/28df8fd0-4932-433d-9cc5-c2cffd024244 opinions on this Witchwarper?

[rustic cape]

My wild thought is clawdancer

[frank crystal]

ohh thats probably the answer

[rustic cape]

In other news: high-level barbarians are c-c-c-crazy

[clever cobalt]

Crazy fun

[rustic cape]

15th-level bombarian's first double-slice of the round dealt over 150 damage

(There was a weakness 15 in play)

[warped orbit]

yeah it be like that

[frank crystal]

Hell yah

[surreal basin]

Played my first session of 2e kingmaker

[light gyro]

You make that king yet

[rustic cape]

I've been enjoying Kingmaker 2e so far

[wraith snow]

My Kingmaker 2e game has been going on for pretty close to exactly 2 years at this point I think? It's a good time.

[rustic cape]

I do know that we're going to be using a fix for the kingdom rules

Because I have heard they are not good by default

[turbid dagger]

We've been playing kingmaker for a bit and uh
Decided to ditch the kingdom rules entirely and just have the kingdom grow with the narrative

[wraith snow]

Same here, I want to say we played it out for the first 3 books

[frank crystal]

whats a good magic item for a healing focused druid?

[solar thorn]

I HATE PREPPING CITIES FOR GAMES
THERE ARE TOO MANY PLACES THE PARTY CAN GOOOO
RAHHHH
crashout over thanks

[frank crystal]

Nah I feel that way

[rustic cape]

Wand or staff with heal

[frank crystal]

they already have it

[astral prawn]

I do love my GM but good lord they prep everything mid-session on a VTT

[frank crystal]

I am going to destroy the ashen rune

I cannot believe they made a rune that gives confused on hit!

[astral prawn]

Gotta love it

[turbid dagger]

You have the power too! It's uncommon

[frank crystal]

Mayhaps

[surreal basin]

Wow that’s cracked

Did u give it to a party member and now regret it

[frank crystal]

He bought one

[surreal basin]

yeah if u thihnk its too strong just say as much

but i always recommend having ur players run uncommons by you

[warped orbit]

ashen rune is mostly fine

it just spams a lot of saves

which, a few will probably get failed just by volume

[astral prawn]

And a player insists on repeating exact info for his detailed notes

[rustic cape]

Just fought Ivarsa in Frozen Flame

Extremely tough fight

We avoided deaths only by the skin of our teeth

My rogue, who was the party medic, hit Wounded 3

And was the last person in the initiative order before she went next

[echo briar]

Would you let this give a minion a battle form spell?

RAW is ambiguous

[solar thorn]

one of those days lads

[frank crystal]

[solar thorn]

also, my players have a horrible habit of never spending consumables
These were my players inventories at the end of Abomination vaults

At this point I am now threatening them

[turbid dagger]

Pf2e shouldn't have made consumables suck such shit to use 😛

[trail nova]

Yep. 2+ actions to use any of them is rough.

[turbid dagger]

2 actions for a 1d8 health potion is crazzzzzyy, and it doesn't get MUCH better as levels go up

[solar thorn]

Though talismans don't have that issue.

[warped orbit]

I've been thinking of house ruling in a small amount of consumable slots for people, that you can draw as a free action

[light gyro]

Healing potions are more for bumping up healing during short rests, really.

[warped orbit]

though I guess you can kind of do this with a retrieval belts or prisms

[light gyro]

TIL retrieval prism

[warped orbit]

it's quite useful

[rapid wagon]

got my first game as a monk yesterday, my orc ki medic healer guy; pretty enjoyable. I wish I could inner upheaval every round

[warped orbit]

well with three ki points, you can get pretty close 😛

[rapid wagon]

someone cast haste on me and I was like "MAP is still a thing, so i gotta do other things, then i remembered that gale blossom stance helps me shove, moving people around seems a bit fun

[desert vale]

Hmm. How much does pvp break pathfinder? Just wondering

2e

Pvp or using character rules for enemies

[warped orbit]

I wouldn't recommend it probably

You could just build the enemy normally and give them class features if necessary

[solar storm]

It's not super broken but it's a fuckload of extra work for the GM

And iirc PC v PC tends to be kinda rocket taggy

[desert vale]

nodnod so less broken than lancer but still not good idea.

[warped orbit]

mostly also PCs just have a bunch of stuff you don't really need

ironically, I think their numbers would probably be slightly worse when built as a PC compared to a monster

[solar storm]

It's workable it's mostly just a lot of extra workflow for not a ton of gain

You totally can do it but the monster rules are pretty robust and good

[solar thorn]

I think the GM guide's advice of giving npcs signature moves if you want to make them feel like player classes
Like Attack of opportunity of fighters etc

[warped orbit]

yeah you can just give them certain class features

[craggy thunder]

seltyiel in a non-edgelord outfit

terrifying

[surreal basin]

I don’t think it’s ambiguous, you just can

[surreal basin]

Hey unironically

Just don’t make them take an action to draw

It’s that simple

[dapper tusk]

https://tenor.com/view/rat-dance-dance-gif-gif-7064682401296407403

[surreal basin]

Oh he’s smoovin

[turbid dagger]

Yeeee

[rough anvil]

I would use so many more consumables

[trim bluff]

i remember my first (and currently only lmao) pathfinder 2e character, they were really good at performance and it was pretty fun

we ran a bar and i was the performer and i made us a pretty significant amount of money

the alchemist brewed the beer, one party member who i cant remember the class of (but it was something rogue adjacent) pawned off all kinds of little trinkets, and i forgot who the 4th party member was because of how long ago the campaign was

we originally planned to carry the characters over into a second campaign (converting systems because the second campaign was dnd 5e) because the first campaign ended at 5 and the second started at 5, but the simple "running a bar" lifestyle felt to narratively right for the party we ended up just leaving them to that and doing the other adventure with new characters

[echo briar]

Do all demons become purple when they become redeemed , or did Nocticula just do that?

[solar storm]

I think by definition things become purple when they become purple :p

[rustic cape]

If you mean "neutral" I suspect the answer is not all demons become purple when they become neutral

And Big Noc just decided to go purple because she likes purple

[astral prawn]

Tbf, she was sometimes purple before then

[desert vale]

atonement and redemption are weird concepts.

[silver geyser]

Queen of the Succubi means that her form is what she wants. 😛

But I will miss the lava high heels.

[astral prawn]

I like the fluffy grey hooves tho

[silver geyser]

Also good tbh

[surreal basin]

… are they?

[desert vale]

The idea of people becoming better. Of changing who they are. And making up for past mistakes. That all makes sense to me. But when they have clear metaphysical implications and defined meanings then it gets kind of fuzzy. If that makes sense

This was in response to Nocticula discussion. And just. The nature of celestials and fiends in general. I guess

[surreal basin]

Ehhhh I mean it is kinda fuzzy

[echo briar]

I've always imagined it as the idea they represent being corrupted/reimagined. A demon of selfishness realizing that mutual cooperation is actually in its best interest, and that stabbing people in the back hurts them way more in the long run

[rustic cape]

I personally find the ideas implied by the word redemption to be very … distressingly transactional? I believe strongly that an individual who has done harm in the past can change their behavior, but the idea of “making up for it” seems bizarre to me, as if evil is a debt to be paid.

A person can be better but they cannot will the past to go away.

[surreal basin]

I don’t think that’s the idea

[rustic cape]

It’s not always

It is sometimes

Especially post-remaster, PF2e has largely steered away from that

But I understand why people are leery of the concept because the language used to talk about it is loaded with words suggesting a sort of economic exchange of morality

[desert vale]

I think. Hmm. Metaphysics...
The fact that I am not all knowing concerns me.

[echo briar]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6zz2b?Meet-the-Iconics-Ulka-Oathshriek#discuss

[limber comet]

One of my new favorites

[tribal steeple]

At least originally (pre-remaster) it almost was an economic exchange of morality, since "good" and "evil" were pretty well-defined and tangible things. It's good that such isn't the case anymore.

[rustic cape]

PF1e was worse by far about that, and fwiw I don't think it's necessary for it to be economic just because good and evil are somewhat defined, so long as there's room for fuzziness

But for 1e we have stuff like the devs confirming that you can adjust your alignment on purpose by casting aligned spells

Paizo has slowly transformed to be better about a lot of this stuff and I'm glad for it

[limber comet]

Modern Paizo <333

[rustic cape]

Buhlman's still there, but I think it's reasonable to allow that he is no longer the face of the writing

[limber comet]

Considering the leaps and bounds in the past couple of years I think it's Fine?

[rustic cape]

Yeah

And I mean the modern writers are doing stuff that is not just "good for Paizo" but good period

Tons of credit to them

[surreal basin]

Or its mechanics
I will never forgive him for weapon cords and im being completely serious

[rustic cape]

Agreed!

It was such a symbolic moment of deep stupidity

[turbid dagger]

Weapon cords?????

[echo briar]

Isn’t that the one where they tied a mouse to their wrist to see what kind of action it should be?

[turbid dagger]

Oh god that

[echo briar]

I will say, that’s not inherently a bad thing. Take something measurable (how easy and quick it is to use) and then balance around that (if it’s kind of slow, make it cheap). However I don’t know if they actually did that

[steel blade]

idk how much he's contributed to PF2e lately but i do know he's got a still-not-launched backerkit for a game that's been in the works for, uh, a while
https://www.backerkit.com/call_to_action/a65f9196-fcb0-4036-b55f-7cd4423046cd/landing

for reference, i say 'still-not-launched' and 'in the works for a while' because i first got an email about it back in August of last year, and it's been pushed out a few times

soon™️

[surreal basin]

He said that you can’t reload while a weapon is dangling from your wrist (you have a weapon held in the other hand, the wrist weapon is hanging from your off hand) because he tied a mouse around his wrist and didn’t feel like you could

Also, it’s inherently a bad thing when ur not a fighter

Sorry Jason u don’t have dex 12 lmao

[heavy fulcrum]

it wasnt even reloading, it was just yanking it up and catching it

(the basic function of weapon cords)

[surreal basin]

Right yeah it made it a move action

[heavy fulcrum]

not being able to reload (or use another weapon) is a seperate "um actually, youre still technically wielding the one on the cord"

[surreal basin]

Which meant you couldn’t full action attack after doing it

[rustic cape]

Ultimately it didn't really matter and there were game-balance objections to weapon cords, but the incident as a whole was just such a perfectly embarrassing microcosm of all the flaws in his leadership.

[surreal basin]

[solar storm]

Yeah the justification was silly more than anything else

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah like damn bro, you could just say you thought it wasnt balanced

[silver geyser]

Now to be fair, it was also destroying balance in PFS thanks to gunslingers. TWFing Rapid Shot Pistoleros were just taking over and running roughshod over every combat because that's an absurd amount of dps thanks to only targeting touch ac

And the inevitable happens whenever you try and nerf something for organized play: people complain

[trail nova]

Well yes, but also PFS had some very strange ideas of what constituted a problem. Gunslingers targeting touch was probably an issue, but stuff like the Crane Stance nerfs were just ????

[silver geyser]

The gunslinger thing was not probably an issue, it 100% was

Alright, the Crane Wing nerf I can probably identify the issue on. When you can first grab it on a monk, you're level 5

Add in the deflect works on an attack that hits without any hard limits and the Feats taken already boosting your AC

And you could just go adventures without getting hit ever. Sure, it balances out eventually as you climb up in levels

But I can definitely see where complaints come from there

And importantly, society play means that the gm cannot pull out the trick of "Just alter encounters to suit your table"

Because then it's invalid for progression

[desert vale]

There was a random nerf I dont like. In pathfindrt 1e.
The Sylph Wizard Alternate Favored Class bonus. I think as originally published was much stronger and it seemed like something fun to abuse.

[silver geyser]

If it ever looks like a random nerf, it's not. Sylph was available for PFS play

[surreal basin]

blows up PFS with my mind

Again the problem is that he justified it with “well I couldn’t flick my mouse into my hand as a swift”

[silver geyser]

On a facebook post, not in anything official.

[wraith snow]

Kip Up requiring a Master of Acrobatics is in a similar vein in my mind. Balance wise I get it, it's better off that way.

But it's not exactly something that requires the peak of physical conditioning

[errant roost]

"Jason, you're a commoner"

[silver geyser]

And RAW for the old weapon cord, a commoner would be able to do it too.

[limber comet]

Oooh

Ohohoho

Shades of Blood vol. 3 spoilers: ||New Wizard School themed around magitech and mechanisms||

[surreal basin]

I…. Okay? It’s not that serious

[desert vale]

Wait, live mouse or computer mouse?

[surreal basin]

I….. computer mouse

[desert vale]

Thats good.

Why do I know how the errata for pathfinder 1e advanced race guide changed the favored class bonuses of some of the races?

[surreal basin]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Anyway p much all balance fails for guns can be traced to the ill fated decision for them to target touch AC

[solar storm]

Yeah

[echo briar]

Some people are getting the remastered treasure vaults PDFs.

Phantasmal doorknob has been nerfed

24 hour immunity after the blindness

[warped orbit]

Very fair

[tribal steeple]

Frankly good, cuz I introduced that to our fighter and soon after realized how insanely busted it is when he crits every second attack.

[warped orbit]

Still makes it by far the strongest probably, just can't chain lock down the same target

Also how does that work of multiple people have one?

[rustic cape]

Hm, a thought

[warped orbit]

Is the immunity per doorknob, or in general?

[rustic cape]

Do y'all think Demoralize would be too crazy if the immunity only applied after a success?

[warped orbit]

No

[rustic cape]

It feels bad to build for demoralize, roll low, and then just have nothing, imo

[tribal steeple]

That'd leave room for trying again at the very least, which is nice if you don't have any other "third action" tricks to use.

[warped orbit]

Cassisian Helmet gives its bonus vs Unholy now
Which is about expected, but still makes it massively worse than it was before

[rustic cape]

Yeah

[warped orbit]

Still good if you know you're up against fiends I suppose

[warped orbit]

(For reference, it used to give the bonus vs evil creatures )

[echo briar]

I really wish that low level ranged combat was more interesting. I feel like starfinder is going to suffer because of it

Like, I feel like starfinder needs unique basic actions and combat rules to make ranged combat more fun, but then that would make it non compatible with pathfinder

[warped orbit]

I feel like they could have made guns punchier in SF2

[wooden orbit]

So uhh what is the Torag's Shield project?

Ahh, I see

That's kinda neat. Reminds me of the Metalbender city in Legend of Korra.

[steel blade]

"I have a tech issue can someone help" "Nevermind fixed it myself[thread closed]" type shit

[wooden orbit]

[surreal basin]

I feel like that was a point of feedback they mentioned

[light gyro]

wizard is using their own body as a chain lightning relay

(definitely worth it they just did >300 damage)

(foundry automates chromatic oozes really well)

[rustic cape]

They kinda did with and only with the soldier

[warped orbit]

it just feels weird that most of the martial weapons are weird specialist options, while all the most generally usable guns are simple

like I think if you just want a normal functional gun without needing to reload all the time, the basic laser rifle is pretty much your best opiton

[light gyro]

ok maybe not worth it

[rapid wagon]

sf2 isnt all the way out yet right?

[light gyro]

nope, still a bunch of playtest classes and adventures

ok i miscalculated, this time we have two sessions of strength of thousands for SURE

[wooden orbit]

"How many debuffs?" "Yes."

[warped orbit]

well like half of those are from being Dying 😛

[tribal steeple]

I've got a strength of thousands session coming up sooooooon (as in within two hours)

[worthy stump]

indeed, they mentioned in the 'closing the SF2e playtest' blogpost that they're definitely gonna punch up the guns for the full release. more traits or damage and such

[worthy stump]

scheduled to release innn late July, i believe?

[surreal basin]

An even then it won’t be truly complete until August/Sept

With the release of the dmg and alien archive

[dapper tusk]

concept: potion monkey

a Pet with the trait that lets it use Manipulate, that keeps two healing potions in its hands

so you can spend one action to command it to feed them to you

so it's two potions per action instead of two actions per potion

[wooden orbit]

SoT mentioned

[tribal steeple]

We're on the precipice of finishing book 1. The party is:

• Human Witch, ice theme, preppy rich girl who is VERY haughty
• Minotaur Magus, polearm, big muscled cow from out of country
• Leshy Druid, mushroom, just kind of manifested in a cave with a ??? backstory
• Human Summoner, crystal dragon, young man with a heart of gold and a haughty dragon's astral imprint to him (they are not very good friends but are getting better)
• Anadi Kineticist (MEEEE), wood/metal, here at the school to learn more about her powers and also druid stuff and also study ARCHITECTURE

Behold the spider kineticist.

[wooden orbit]

[desert vale]

Spider.

[echo briar]

The faith tattoo can apparently sanctify you now

I don’t know if that’s unlock at the higher level versions, but if the level 4 gives it that seems very good

[warped orbit]

there is still some stuff that's a bit unclear about sanctification

because unless it sanctifies your attacks too, being sanctified is kind of a downside mostly

since all it does is open you up to being hurt by anti holy/unholy effects

[wooden orbit]

Anyone else looked at the Shining Kingdoms book today?

[surreal basin]

Is it out??

[wooden orbit]

Ayup!

PDF came out today I think, and physical book has been purchasable for a few weeks.

[surreal basin]

Oh shit rad

[tribal steeple]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1l3lnz0/treasure_vault_remaster_changes/

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rHKqMZlfSZkxaUZgg9pSmiCJvamPHCSEH0fzVMhBiDE/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.n8yxa1h7cj4l

A more detailed summary of changes.

[ocean cobalt]

it's mostly good for oracles/summoners/witches who have a bunch of spirit damage spells but no way to actually be sanctified right

[fossil dome]

Wait. this was a computer mouse

I have been..... misreading the episode 😂

[warped orbit]

it does help Divine casters who can't currently be sanctified yes

[surreal basin]

Just nabbed it

Wow the eagle knight archetype is insanely good

[turbid dagger]

Id say Blackjacket is the standout
The dedi is real fall out of your chair type stuff

[warped orbit]

oh?

[turbid dagger]

Early expert in Intimidation, autoscaling warfare lore, and essentially permanent +1 circ to intimidate

[warped orbit]

Pretty decent yeah

[turbid dagger]

The +3 spike to intimidate pleases me greatly

[wooden orbit]

Not sure if I should feel worried that the new Platinum Wing divison of the Eagle Knights have ||developed a new firearm using pieces of warshards, pieces of Gorum's armor, imbuing them with Gorum's power. When the Eagle Knights are also concerned with the potential of Andoran's public becoming increasingly armed with firearms||

[astral prawn]

If it helps they criminalise anyone owning said gun who isn't authorized

[warped orbit]

only just noticed this gives Tactical Reflexes

that's pretty good

[wooden orbit]

Yeah, at least that particular tech is banned from the public. Also go figure some of the Consuls want to heavily militarize and expand the Eagle Knights.

[solar storm]

nightmare confined hallway fight

[surreal basin]

Oh WOW you caught them in a v different room than we did

We had that fight on the bird balcony

So it was extremely open lol

That’s also where we fought ||Ordulf||

[solar storm]

Yeah we got FUCKED UP by the ||first blade thing|| and ran away to the ||secret room|| to heal

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah that fight is

Probably one of the roughest I’ve ever had in an AP that wasn’t just straight up cheating

I think it’s an insanely good fight

You’re in for a good one cyan

[solar storm]

🙂

[upbeat ridge]

In terms of using a staff as a weapon (like on a warpriest/battle harbinger of nethys for example) Is the ability to have it as a spell staff worth not being able to put property runes on it?

Because you can’t put property runes on a spell staff RAW

Also oddly enough the battle lute is the same damage/traits but also gets shove

So I guess paizo thinks that the ability to have a spell staff is worth loosing a trait AND property runes

[warped orbit]

Staves are pretty crummy weapons anyway tbh

Unless you're Twisting Tree Magus

[upbeat ridge]

Aren’t property runes a pretty crucial part of your damage scaling?

[clever cobalt]

yes

[warped orbit]

Yes

[wraith snow]

I've seen people try to make staff weapon fighters work outside of Magus but I've yet to see it perform well outside of the lowest levels

[upbeat ridge]

It should have one extra trait probs

I’d assume sweep or smth

[warped orbit]

Well they aren't necessary like fundamentals strictly
But getting damage property runes is a pretty significant increase in damage

[upbeat ridge]

Yeah

[warped orbit]

Staves are just kinda meant to be bad as weapons

[craggy thunder]

tis why bo staves or whipstaves exist

[warped orbit]

Hence why Twisting Tree buffs the hell out of them

[craggy thunder]

for staff weapons that

don't suck ass

[wraith snow]

I've always felt that the do-thing-on-crit runes feel really hard to justify for most builds

[warped orbit]

Crushing is very good

If you're a Fighter

[rapid wagon]

staves are cool tbh, maybe a bit of a shame that they're meant to be bad

nice that there IS a class for em

but anyone who's fooled around with a quarterstaff before knows they're not really particularly far behind a sword or somesuch in a one on one or duel setting

[warped orbit]

Well there are other staff like weapons, like Rhi mentioned

Bo Staff especially is quite good

[plucky snow]

I attempted to make a Bo staff strength monk

It seems to require a lot of feats to get online

[warped orbit]

You do unfortunately need to get Monastic Weaponry

(Don't really know why that one has a tax tbh)

But that's mostly it tbh

Getting some Staff Acrobat stuff can help but isn't strictly necessary

[rapid wagon]

is there a stance you can rock with it?

[plucky snow]

Dragon tail I think

I didn't go for any stances, though

[warped orbit]

there are very few armed stances, and none that are staff compatible I think

[plucky snow]

Staff compatible?

[warped orbit]

it's like
Peafowl, Waterfowl, Shooting Stars, and Whirling Blade

[warped orbit]

Peafowl and Waterfowl both need swords
Shooting Stars is shuriken
Whirling Blade requires finesse, and is meant for throwing

[plucky snow]

Oh, stances that specifically key off of being armed

gotcha

[small meteor]

Considering most staves are 1h.. Does this mean that a dex-based fighter-sorcerer build is viable?

[plucky snow]

I don't think there are a lot of finesse staves

[small meteor]

No, but we're using the staff for its spellcasting ability, and fighting with a finesse sword.

[plucky snow]

oic

[small meteor]

I know where this is going and I don't like it.

[plucky snow]

It's probably doable, but you have multiple attribute dependency

[small meteor]

Yeah but you get 2 high attributes, so it's pretty safe even if your DEX and CON are questionable because well you're a modest spellcaster, you can plink away at them whilst having the 10+CON of a fighter.

[surreal basin]

At that point probably just play a magus

IMO

[small meteor]

A magus would be the normal way to do this, and now that I think about it staff for spellstrike..

[craggy thunder]

Josie would you like to look at my magus homebrew where I specifically made a sword & staff hybrid study? XD

[small meteor]

Oddly, PF2e is the one place I don't normally mess with homebrew, but yes.

[craggy thunder]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1yOymsd5EKodXwd9zEtB6dxXy1Ex7b50vZ7sDa27Qnow/edit?usp=sharing

tada

[small meteor]

you’re wielding a one handed melee weapon in one hand and a staff in the other
DUAL WIELD STAVES.

facepalm.

[craggy thunder]

lol

[warped orbit]

Love this meme
Good to see it again

[echo briar]

https://theteamplus.us/author-insight/shining-kingdoms-an-irish-perspective/

[wooden orbit]

Think it was saliva, and blood for the Vithkanya

[craggy thunder]

I haven't used my thaumaturge character's archetype at all this entire time I've played them and our gm is allowing us one free rebuild

but idk what to pick lol

[surreal basin]

What build

[craggy thunder]

kind of general melee thaum

I think I might just switch to pathfinder agent for more knowledge stuffs

[craggy thunder]

fuckit gonna do pathfinder agent to do instructive strike into discerning strike

[surreal basin]

Fair

I would recommend duelist

Well, no, I guess you don’t a hand free huh

[craggy thunder]

lmao

[worthy stump]

Rogue is always a classic good archetype

[craggy thunder]

It is, but Pathfinder Agent has more juice

[turbid dagger]

Marshal is basically the number one No Downsides Archetype Pick

For thaum

Boosts your talkiness and fixes your to-hit

[surreal basin]

“Fixes”

[clever cobalt]

I also like Champion for that sweet heavy armor

[rustic cape]

If picking up heavy armor from an archetype I'd personally prefer something I can get Mighty Bulwark from

[minor monolith]

Relatedly, what's a good free Archetype for a Thrown Weapon Thaum? Currently using (modified) Oatia Skysage, but thought I'd do some window shopping, not sure if any of the new books have something relevant

[rustic cape]

Exemplar

Shadow Sheath borders on being a power patch for all thrown weapon users

And Exemplar has a +10 foot throw distance feat

Rogue has another one

You probably want both, ultimately

[small meteor]

Wait, what's the Thaum's main statistic?

[rustic cape]

Charisma

[small meteor]

..Consider Swashbuckler dedication for https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=6151.

[minor monolith]

Huh, I didn't know Exemplar had the range buff! Went Ancient Elf Rogue to get Strong Arm ASAP, but hadn't even considered Class Archetypes

[rustic cape]

Getting panache can be painful for an Exemplar, alas

Already very action hungry

[small meteor]

Ahh.

[rustic cape]

It depends, of course

I would definitely do Rogue and Exemplar to start out

Rogue has great feats in general

And Exemplar gives you some good stuff

Oh, if you have the Int for it (you probably won't), Inventor is a good dip for the armor

[small meteor]

Downside is you need to be level 16 for this but..
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4956

[rustic cape]

Ton of other ways to do that, though

I'm doing a barb thrower in Kingmaker, and while the plan is eventually to go for Shadow Sheath, right now she's been using https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=333

These things are wonderful: 40 foot range, recovery on miss, and you can keep four of them hanging from your wrists to draw for free

[minor monolith]

Definitely going to look into Exemplar more, Shadow Sheath is a great shout, the free drawing would let me use something bigger than Shuriken for the 0 Reload

[rustic cape]

OH

Dual Weapon Warrior

For Dual Thrower

Is an option

(My barb will eventually be doing that + Exemplar + bomb shenanigans)

(I'm piloting a level 15 version in The Demon Queen Awakens right now as well and it is a bit silly)

[minor monolith]

Woah, wait, Exemplar Dedication straight gives you an Ikon? Was expecting that to cost a second Feat, that's great value

[rustic cape]

Yeah, there's debates over whether it's too much

You may want to check with your GM just in the interests of being polite

[minor monolith]

Oh 100%, will be running the whole idea by him first

[tribal steeple]

There's a reason the class as a whole is Rare and all

[warped orbit]

Nah

Examplar is fine itself

Just the dedication is weirdly front loaded

It at least shouldn't immediately give you the immanence I feel

[tribal steeple]

Have you seen all the discourse about dipping wood kineticist for timber sentinel, some people get up in arms about that one

[rustic cape]

Dedications are just pretty inconsistent in terms of value

Especially multiclass ones

[warped orbit]

that one is also very strong

[warped orbit]

also yes

[echo briar]

I feel like there is a single dev that thinks dedications should be good, while the others want them to be weaker than other feats

[rustic cape]

I tend to be with the “should be good” crowd

[warped orbit]

I generally agree, but I still think Exemplar dedication gives a bit too much

for the cost of one feat you can just get yourself a basically permanent buff, and potentially a useful ability too

Victor's Wreath already got errata'd, but it was a little absurd how good it was at clearing afflictions and conditions

any weapon ikon is basically a free +2/die damage buff

[rapid wagon]

man fighting kapoacinth's is rough

[rustic cape]

Sorry for the low res but

[small meteor]

Funnily enough, our host acts like a Kineticist GM but has a setting like an Alchemist GM.

gkathellar (he/him) ↩️

[Reply to:](#1161695831775248426 message) Sorry for the low res but 📎

[turbid dagger]

You getting a wholly unaltered immanence and transcend out of Exemplar dedi is crazy, yeah
Especially when you get a second ikon later
Because that is
Most of the class?

[vocal ember]

I can't help but notice that the wizard GM has the sorcerer icon

[rustic cape]

I think maybe ikon w/o immanence should be on the dedication, a second ikon should be on a second feat, and immanence on all known ikons should be on a third

[rustic cape]

Fighting Metuak in Frozen Flame, ama

We have had tremendous dice luck

We win!

So many crits!

[warped orbit]

nice

[rustic cape]

First AP completed

Good times!

We got the best ending, wooooooo

[turbid dagger]

Oh sick!

[clever cobalt]

Nice

[rustic cape]

Also Smoke joined us on the battlefield as my free animal companion

(He’s on the screen if you zoom in)

[warped orbit]

Voidling support

[vocal ember]

kitty!

[worthy stump]

the bane of wizards

[limber comet]

I think about this feat a lot

https://tenor.com/view/roof-piece-one-piece-red-roc-luffy-red-roc-peak-piece-gif-25490888

[tribal steeple]

Just don't miss

[astral prawn]

Buffs and hero points baby

[tribal steeple]

Some weeks ago I managed to successfully herd the rest of my play group into setting up a +3/-3 buff/debuff stack on an enemy and I was so proud. I'm pretty sure the lesson didn't stick.

[rustic cape]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1346271975676313632/1381268254638735503/image.png?ex=6846e5ce&is=6845944e&hm=7b7a2c581927e473403e3527721e5591e0af72013c43d7d6b4e925756156fce5& kINGMAKER

[wooden orbit]

Kinda surprised Mythkeeper didn't wait until Rahadoum got the Lost Omen treatment before doing an episode on them. (Was almost expecting him to touch up prior episodes with the release of Lost Omens: Shining Kingdoms)

[small meteor]

I've thought of a weapon I wanna see in PF2e based on its statblock.

2h D8 Martial Sword, Reach, Sweep.

Or maybe D10.

[warped orbit]

well there is the Broadspear, but that is advanced

wait no I forgot the Fauchard is exactly that actually

or did you want it to specifically be a sword?

[small meteor]

Mmm, I mean it blurs the line, but that's why I suggest D10, to give it an advantage over the Fauchard.

[ocean cobalt]

nodachi kinda

but also advanced

[small meteor]

True. But IDK, I just wanna see people throwing themselves around with a Zweihänder. Maybe I'm just a weirdo.

[ocean cobalt]

no i sympathize

[small meteor]

Like, the Greatsword is good, but.. It isn't a CC weapon.

[surreal basin]

Yeah that’s fine

Tbh I think u can give it d10, sword is kinda a downgrade in terms of crit spec

[solar thorn]

I'm kinda surprised that the greatsword doesn't have sweep, but it is the nature of martial swords to just be versatile instead.

[warped orbit]

d10 reach sweep would be perfectly fine, yeah

[solar thorn]

I feel like you could put the Zweihander into the game with sweep and leave the greatsword as "generic beeg sword"

and only pedants would be mad

[warped orbit]

it's honestly annoying how few reach swords there are

I think the Nodachi is the only one?

[solar thorn]

yeah

Not a reach sword but my fascination with executioner's swords are going to make me have to make one in game.

[warped orbit]

hmm
I feel like it would probably come out kinda pick-like

[solar thorn]

yeah I was gonna say fatal seems like the clear choice

though that would leave it's default damage feeling so-so for such a heavy weapon.
Butchering axe seems like something that could be copied 1 for 1 and be fine.

[warped orbit]

well you could go like the greatpick, but that's also a bit awkward

(which is d10 with fatal d12 for reference)

the awkward part is that usually fatal is two die steps above the weapon's regular size

but the greatpick runs into the die ceiling

[solar thorn]

Ogre hook is 2 hands, d10 deadly d10 which seems fair

Not sure what you'd replace the trip with. maybe nothing so its not uncommon.

[warped orbit]

you could maybe get away with d12 Deadly d10

or maybe Deadly d8

[solar thorn]

that's a spicy meatball

d12 deadly d8 makes sense for a giant fuckoff sword that's just here to take heads

[warped orbit]

it has no utility whatsoever, but it does big fucking crits

[solar thorn]

Yeah, which makes sense in real life too. There's a reason it's not used in actual combat.

[surreal basin]

two hand, 1d8 slashing with 1d12 fatal and forceful

was my thought

was thinking about this earlier

maybe swap forceful for versastile bludgeoning

[ocean cobalt]

maybe backstabber?

to represent an affinity for prepared (prone, restrained, etc) targets

[turbid dagger]

Ye I'd go backstabber personally
Follow up swings are not exactly the executioner ideal

[surreal basin]

fair point

[rustic cape]

Wow that thing is slick

Pick has a great crit specialization too

[echo briar]

Shining kingdoms is on nethys. I think they are back to their old upload schedule

[rustic cape]

Makes me want to put together some kind of crit-fishing bullshit

[echo briar]

Also the new faith tattoo looks pretty good https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2207

Sanctification, and your deity’s lvl 1 spell? That’s very good

[rustic cape]

Depending on god that could be wild

[echo briar]

With how many gods there are, that’s almost a hands free wand, that can be of any tradition other than divine

[rustic cape]

There's gotta be a god with Fear as their 1st-level spell

Or something else ubiquitously handy

Oh but I guess diminishing returns due to set DC

Still

Pondering Spirit Warrior Fighter or Thief w/a Fangwire

Kaiju Defense Oath Sprite Fighter w/Spirit Warrior seems solid for a 4-12 game

[solar storm]

There is https://2e.aonprd.com/Deities.aspx?ID=613

Gotta kinda be a wang but it’s there

[echo briar]

Two deities have lose the path https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=940

Which is always good

considering if you win pathfinder by finding the path, making your opponents lose the path is always a great strategy

Sure strike is also just generically good

[rustic cape]

Yeah I think that might be the pick

A lot of gods have it, too

[rustic cape]

80 gp for a hands-free once/day sure strike is solid

[wraith snow]

Does anybody have an idea for what builds could realistically leverage the flying talon? I was considering it because one of my characters will likely need to be replaced soon and I know for a fact based on the nature of the campaign that the character that comes in is highly likely to be a Kobold

atm I was considering Thaum with the ancestry feats to make biting a viable weapon attack and use the talon primarily for the tripping aspect but I'm not sure if anything else would fit the bill better. At that point it seems better to just use a bola.

[rustic cape]

Unrelated: ... okay but hear me out. Mixed ancestry sprite/android, brawling weapon fighter w/a fangwire, clockwork reanimator, spirit warrior w/kaiju defense oath. Tiny robot warrior riding a noble robot zombie corgi into battle.

[undone sinew]

Ello! question, would homebrew i made be able to be posted here?

[solar storm]

Yea

[undone sinew]

ey! ty!

Hello everyone! I have now updated my deity doc! Having reached over 100 deities, i now welcome you to the Road Through Hell Update!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AeZBW9YpzxdbhHledFnZ9dAuJNED4JWHcHMEr5vpNfQ/edit?usp=sharing

In this update, you shall find

• The many types of deities that make their home in the hells, including:

• The Infernal Dukes, a collection of nobles in hell that fight each other for power, the souls of the damned, and contracts, do you want to worship one in a variety of devil vampires? Or perhaps someone such as Uruskreil, whose followers attempt to turn themselves into hell machines to remove all weakness?

• The Malebranche, hell conquerors of mortal words, with a variety of success! We have the eternally scheming Alichino and his plans to conquer Golarion, with clowns! We have the dragon brothers, who once ruled the Diaspora before its destruction, now forever exiled from the Hells. And to those with a traitor streak, you could worship them all as a pantheon, pledging yourself to betray your own planet for the conquerors of Asmodeus

• The Asura Rana! Created by the mistakes of the gods, some have no greater crime committed then their own birth, such as Hydim, created when a god forced a nation to suffer through starvation. Others delight in bringing suffering, like Maeha, who kidnaps whole demiplanes for his own uses. And some, like Taraksun, prepare for the moment they will be able to strike the heavens, and shed the blood of those self-righteous gods!

• Finally, besides all of these fiends, i have also made just for fun Cayden Cailean, Of The Rough Road, inspired by the image of the Gaúcho and a more working man of the frontier. A great shout out to Derry Luttrell, for inspiring to make something using my own local culture and tales!

[rustic cape]

Holy shit that's a lot of gods

Nice work

[undone sinew]

Ty!

[rustic cape]

I always find actually statting gods up for PF2e discouraging/intimidating because there's not really a discernible balance point

[undone sinew]

See I get that, but I did end up getting a bit of a formula for it

My only thing was trying to avoid giving too much sure strike but to some it just really makes sense

[warped orbit]

honestly after the Sure Strike nerf it's not even that big a deal anymore

[undone sinew]

Yeee

I also enjoy doing the 9 spell system so I can easily pick what to do + having no clue why some gods get to have so many

[rustic cape]

Nethys gets nine Because Magic

[vocal ember]

Yeah, I think it even says that in GM Core when they talk about making custom gods. Give them 3 or 9 if they are related to magic. Though, within the core 20, Nethys is sorta balanced out by getting the staff as a weapon I suppose.

[rustic cape]

I'd probably just do 9 for all gods for my custom setting if I ever got around to it >_>

[echo briar]

I kinda want to make a god of magic with only one spell, "any"

any one spell from any list.

[warped orbit]

Shining Kingdoms and TV Remastered are up on Nethys now

(Also Bristle Boar has been fixed, but it lives on as a cosmetic option)

[echo briar]

If I already am able to cast spells from spell slots, what do I get from the second paragraph? https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7680

I think RAW I get nothing, which is probably a mistake

[warped orbit]

Gets you nothing yeah

[echo briar]

Can this be an Ikon, or loaded into a shadow sheath? I think it can https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7704

if so, thats a really cool exemplar build

[surreal basin]

Yeah I think so

That’d be neat

[solar storm]

Is that the level 84 Apex Swine?

[warped orbit]

it was yes

[warped orbit]

oh hey, free daggers

wonder if this is still meant to drawn normally, or just free

oh it's an artifact archetype, interesting

pretty cool archetype honestly, only downside is it forces you to use daggers

[surreal basin]

The spectral dagger it gives you isn’t terrible tbh

[warped orbit]

it's okay, yeah

kinda wish it was 1 spirit per die at least though

instead of just 1 flat

[rustic cape]

Anything of particular note in these?

[warped orbit]

uhh, Doorknob got nerfed

some of the archetypes in Shining Kingdoms got some neat stuff

[tribal steeple]

Doorknob nerf is fair and good, infinite blind-chain is kinda warping

[warped orbit]

Eagle Knight can give Tactical Reflexes (the Fighter feat that gives you a second reaction for Reactive Strike)

[warped orbit]

oh yeah, it was definitely warranted

[clever cobalt]

Oh shit, nice

What level?

[warped orbit]

at 12th

[clever cobalt]

Fair

[echo briar]

I have to say, having +15 to your first attack, but +1500 to every other attack is interesting game design https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=3798

[fossil dome]

Just a liiiitle bitta crits

[rustic cape]

?

[fossil dome]

Although, I don't hate the idea of a monster that has a negative MAP

[rustic cape]

Oh I see it

[fossil dome]

With a poor to hit initially

[rustic cape]

And perhaps pressures to exploit ways to prevent it from taking many swings?

[fossil dome]

Possibly, yes

Such as the ever expedious Step action

(make it slow, but give it AoO)

Or, wait, that's called Reactive Strike now

[clever cobalt]

What gods do you think a Fleshforged Champion would worship? Notably one from Nex/the Mana Wastes who moved to Avistan

[astral prawn]

What is the Fleshforged like as a person?

In Ecanus, where the Fleshforges reside, the most popular faiths are Aakriti, Abadar, Irori, Nethys and Pharasma

[clever cobalt]

mhm

[astral prawn]

But it does largely depend on what they're like as a person

[wraith snow]

I do think Irori offers fun flavour for an artificial creation

[solar thorn]

So, I'm running a homebrew campaign right now at Level 2 and compared to Abomination Vaults my players are absolutely rolling it. I'm trying to figure out why. Abomination Vaults had a ton of close calls by this point, where as low-severe encounters I'm creating are not challenging. I think it might be that my battlemaps are a lot larger, so enemies have to stride and take cover more than just STEP STRIKE STRIKE RAHHH

It also might be a difference in durability keeping things from snowballing? Players are a Liberator, spell-focused cleric, druid, bard now instead of bow-ranger, magus, war cleric, thamaturge.

[rustic cape]

A lot depends on party comp and the particulars of the encounter

[solar thorn]

The liberator's doing a good job of getting into the scuffle and taking the aggro, and I've been avoiding the PL+3 fights that I know are deadly in low levels

[rustic cape]

PF2e has probably the best CR system imaginable, but it's still got a lot of limits

But something my GM has mentioned is that she always gives enemies extra HP

[wary yoke]

I kind of used similar when I ran a duel in PF1E; people used their lowest attacks to start with and went up, with the logic that people would be guarding better

[rustic cape]

Because otherwise things just get rolled too quickly

[solar thorn]

I also need to figure out how much it changes CR for when human enemies run, which I've been rp'ing a lot. Most of their enemies have been thieves, thugs and deserters, not known for their tenacity.

[wary yoke]

It worked in the fight to create tension and allow the fighters to do interesting things (one fighter, a level 14 elf brawler, had Improved Called Shot as a feat)

[rustic cape]

(For our fight with Ivarsa in Frozen Flame she dropped Ivarsa's AC a whole bunch but gave her a shitload of extra HP, because that is always more fun)

[small meteor]

I thought health tanks weren't fun though?

[rustic cape]

Depends

I would say depleting a big pool of HP is virtually always more fun than missing a lot of your attacks

[solar thorn]

A lot of my fear right now is that they're about to face the first really spooky enemy, a level 4 woman with a really big fuckoff sword and power attack. I'm worried their false sense of security from chewing through mobs is going to get someone bifurcated

[rustic cape]

(One of her most successful house rules is that oozes lose crit and precision immunity but have double HP because even if the ratios work out to be virtually identical, Big Number Is More Fun)

[small meteor]

I see. I erm, I'm a novice GM, I'm barely able to get myself to ask players for one session. x.x

She can't even do that. She tries, but her anxiety gets to her.

[wraith snow]

Massive damage death rules sure make some low level encounters interesting, so it's probably fair to be worried.

[solar thorn]

They haven't seen the statblock yet so I might just change out vicious swing for intimidating strike or something

To prevent the chance that a 3d12+8 crit removes someone instantly

(Averages 52 btw)

[wraith snow]

Happened to me in a first session last week, unfortunately

I ate a max roll crit that wound up being exact massive damage