Pathfinder

[rustic cape]

Liturgist is both your best choice and also the most fun choice, getting outsize benefits from sustaining spells with extra steps and leaps and just generally feeling very dynamic

Probably the two mainstay vessel spells are Earth's Bile (which also comes with very strong apparition spells) and Garden of Healing (which doesn't until pretty late). That said, the class is extremely flexible in terms of apparition choice and you can just play around.

I don't think generally being any kind of close-in-fighter is a good call, animist is very much a full caster and while it can gish I think the gish options are fairly undertuned

The feat that gives you heal and harm as apparition spells is a really good pickup, as is channeler's stance

Because your animist spells and apparition spells are from separate pools, you will not have the ability to throw around as many blasting spells as a sorcerer or something of the like.

Your big strengths are versatility and, from level 9 on, your unique faculty with sustain spells

Picking up some leap optimization is a good idea. You can get a 20-30 foot leap without too much trouble, and it makes you a phenomenally mobile caster

You are more durable than some casters

Not amazingly tough but in a good spot

[sturdy lagoon]

It's certainly not optimal, yeah. Melee animist is really more of a for-fun build. But it's also not downright terrible.

But definitely not optimal.

[rustic cape]

It's fine

For me, the delight of playing an animist has been doing backflips around the battlefield casting all manner of weird shit and sustaining lots of spells

As of level 18 I typically have more free sustains than I actually know what to do with

Oh at mid/high levels Sixth Pillar for maneuvering spell is craaaaazy

[sturdy lagoon]

Battle animist still a full caster trying to play the part of melee frontline

You're not squishy, its not like you only get unarmored proficiency and 6+CON hp, but you're not tough like a fighter is

But by god is it a fun concept

[rustic cape]

The biggest issue with Echoes of Battle or whatever it's named is that it's a status bonus

[ocean cobalt]

📝📝📝

tysm

[rustic cape]

Animist has some good flexibility in terms of feats generally, there are some real standouts (medium's awareness, channeler's stance, the heal/harm one) but in general if you want to invest heavily into archetypes you should be able to

I love the class, I'm happy to talk about it :D

[sturdy lagoon]

Yeah that part is probably what hurts it the most

You're not really "cheating the system", just getting a solo buff spell, and that means another buff spell means nothing for you

[ocean cobalt]

what's the status on like, recall knowledge stuff? is the bonus lore something to take seriously as far as building goes or is it just a nice bonus

[rustic cape]

You're fine at it? Mostly your lores from apparitions are pretty niche but they could come up now and again

You're just not going to be using Fortune-Telling Lore a whole lot in most games

You're no thaumaturge

[ocean cobalt]

also, wait i heard there's like maneuver support

what's the deal there

[sturdy lagoon]

That's also going to depend on how well your GM supports specialized recall knowledge. If they don't really have anything to give you're not getting much out of it.

[rustic cape]

In what sense?

[ocean cobalt]

in the sense that animist has feats you can take

[rustic cape]

There's a higher-level feat that gives you like ... weird 30-foot reach unarmed strike hands of grass

That you can use to grapple, if you have the stats for it

[sturdy lagoon]

There's also one or two feats that use them. So they're kind of tied to being good at them.

[rustic cape]

There's a metastrike that I am convinced exists for people multiclassing in from martial classes

(Grudge Strike)

(It's very, very good)

[surreal basin]

I would hardly say they’re tied to being good at them

It’s a thing you can do tho

[ocean cobalt]

wait which ones

the vibe im getting is like, divine caster that gets stuff for mobility and being in melee sparingly

which i guess is What A Divine Caster Is

[rustic cape]

It's a more versatile divine caster with off-list spells

And really cool focus spells

And good mobility synergies

[ocean cobalt]

ah yeah and off-list spells

[sturdy lagoon]

Huh, I might have misremembered. Sorry about that

[sturdy lagoon]

Animist's big mechanical draw is shuffling your vessel spells and wandering feats around day by day

You're not 1e medium, but you have some flexibility

You're obviously going to have that one apparition you're focused on, but filling in a small shift in roles day by day is what a good chunk of your class features are.

[rustic cape]

I do use Circle of Spirits a lot

[sturdy lagoon]

Yeah, it makes your non-primary apparition a lot more accessible.

on the flip side, the big thematic draw is you get to play someone with a lot more going on in their head than usual. depending on how well you and your GM handle characters of this kind of trope, it can be very, very interesting, and the concept is all mechanically backed up.

[ocean cobalt]

that bit does admittedly turn me off, as someone playing what's flavorfully essentially an animist in a different system

not because i dislike that character or that element of that character, just as a like... "been there done that" kind of thing

[rustic cape]

Ultimately though nothing is demanding you play it like that

[sturdy lagoon]

you can just sideline the animism. you do take a hit to the roleplaying potential of that, but if you're just interested mechanically you can figure out a different coat of paint.

like, I dunno, specialized supernatural stances?

[ocean cobalt]

🤷‍♀️

[sturdy lagoon]

it's admittedly kind of a hard bit to reflavor

unless you just kinda muddle over some details about why you don't have X lore right now

[rustic cape]

You just don't have to place a heavy focus on the animism

It can just be a thing your character does to pay the bills

:D

[sturdy lagoon]

would leaning more into the not-quite-ghost side of apparitions help?

a little less talking to the spirits of the land, a little more "my friends are dead and I'm the only one who can see them"

make up a a few previous party members that got hit with a nefarious near-TPK and you probably got most of the apparition archetypes down if you assign multiple to each one as a like, day by day unstable emotions of the dead thing

another option is your character is roleplaying so hard the sympathetic undercurrent of magic actually gives them powers for following the script, but this bit will probably give your GM headaches unless you're playing a more relaxed joke-y game.

[light gyro]

my wizard boss crit failed slow HELP

All good, other wizard dispelled it. Gonna blow them all up next session

[limber comet]

So I started reading Absolute Wonder Woman and

I have another Exemplar idea

[rustic cape]

That seems like an appropriate progression of events, yes :D

Absolute Wonder Woman as dual-class Exemplar/Animist

[steel blade]

i'd place her as more of a witch/wizard/sorc tbh
witch is the best fit but idk what her familiar would be, patron though would be faith's flamekeeper or starless shadow(hecate); wizard/sorc are a bit of a better fit mechanically but not perfect

[rustic cape]

I think animist is good because she follows a bunch of different gods and because she mixes spell lists

But possibly also with some other magic class dips

[echo briar]

I'm making an exemplar with this architype https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/archetypes/rivethun-invoker-rm

I want scar of the survivor, but if you notice, this dedication literally gives all of the ikons immanence effects and then some, making it literally only useful for its transcendence.

does this matter?

[frank crystal]

Any strong high level enemies who use hybrid weapons?

[echo briar]

This is the piazo website. Does nginx mean anything?

[errant roost]

It's the webserver they're using

[rustic cape]

Hm. Is Amnesiac the only "three ability boosts" background?

[ocean cobalt]

no there are a couple

Discarded Duplicate is what another's called iirc and the flavor/rp prompt for it is actually really appealing (if you're me)

[rustic cape]

Certainly more compelling than amnesiac >_>

[surreal basin]

Amnesiac is what u make of it tbh

[rustic cape]

More intrinsically compelling

[surreal basin]

Hmmm

Yknow, wand is less bad than I initially thought for thaum

It’s not good but like

It’s okay for targeting stuff with weak reflex

Is basically a nice little cantrip

Yeah

[warped orbit]

it's okay

it just kinda competes with what you normally want to be doing on your turn

it does get pretty decent once you have the Adept and Master benefit

[surreal basin]

Yeah

[warped orbit]

I also kinda wish they let Wand work with Exploit

even though it's not a Strike

[rotund geode]

Hey, random question
what is the ideal level for the party to be at if you just want to run a one shot

like... instincts say 5 but I might just be inheriting that from dnd

[novel merlin]

6 is decent for low level, most classes also get a good power bump around 10 too though

Avoid levels right before major proficiency bumps like 4 and I think 14 since it'll feel the worst

[rotund geode]

Oh right yeah pathfinder cares a lot about even levels

[novel merlin]

Even levels are class feats

Looking at this chart
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/153padBzqHHhYNY2_a1CNCMn71wcvZznLQliH96Kg4KU/edit?gid=0#gid=0

For low levels, level 5 is when most martials get expert in weapons
7 is when casters get expert in casting and 4th level spells
7 is also when weapon specialization kicks in

If your players arent gonna be overwhelmed by the number of options, 7 seems like a fun level to play at

[craggy thunder]

I just blew a roof of a windmill in starfinder by casting volcanic wrath inside it 😌

[eager mountain]

https://bsky.app/profile/stellarencore.bsky.social/post/3lkqlhvinek27

Pan rolls dice! (@stellarencore.bsky.social)

So far I've managed to canonise Y-pop (Basically K-pop, but sung by Ysoki in Ysoki and surprisingly popular galaxy wide) in almost every #Starfinder world I've played in and I'm not going to stop now.

Bluesky · Mar 19, 2025, 4:17 PM

[astral prawn]

Y-pop must make ears bleed

[fast hill]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=943 My commander got intimidated by another party member (roleplay shenanigans) and I realise I need this feat

[turbid dagger]

Huh
I wonder how much 'benefit' covers
Like, would they not find it easier to hit you from frightened?

[rustic cape]

My kingmaker party lost our inventor and got a wizard

So now we’re barbarian (thrown), exemplar (unarmed), gunslinger (sniper), and wizard (civic)

(The barbarian will be doing battle medicine)

[keen raptor]

Wizard (civic) just made me think of the wizard conjuring a sedan on top of the enemy and I'm not sure why

[rustic cape]

That’s so good though

[fast hill]

gulp.

instant KO

crit me, did 30 damage

[light gyro]

Simply unbearable

[fast hill]

its funny

when I played kingmaker in 1e

I killed it with a 72 damage crit

on the first round of combat

we have free 1d4 healing around our animist

so really unworried

critical hits only reduce you to dying 2 if you're already dying right

[turbid dagger]

If you are downed by a crit you start at dying 2

[fast hill]

where does it say that?

yeah it's only if you're already dying

this is important because I would otherwise be dead

[warped orbit]

As a player character, when you're reduced to 0 Hit Points, you're knocked out with the following effects:

Move your initiative position to directly before the turn in which you were reduced to 0 HP.
Gain the dying 1 condition.** If the effect that knocked you out was a critical success from the attacker or the result of your critical failure, you gain the dying 2 condition instead.** If you have the wounded condition, increase your dying value by an amount equal to your wounded value. If the damage was dealt by a nonlethal attack or nonlethal effect, you don't gain the dying condition; you're instead unconscious with 0 Hit Points.

also no hero points?

[fast hill]

cant find this anywhere

[warped orbit]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2319&Redirected=1

should be page 410 in the Player Core book

[fast hill]

huh

yeah I would have died

I rolled a 2 on my recovery save

which would have been a crit fail

[warped orbit]

no one saved you before you turn came around again?

and no hero points either?

[fast hill]

nope

but we're just gonna keep it in mind

[fast hill]

first time I have spent my starting skills on lore skills

[fast hill]

my commander has been quite fun to play in kingmaker so far

he has basically been making a sales pitch to every other PC about why he should be monarch

[surreal basin]

Did u also remember to move ur initiative above the monster that killed you out of curiosity

[fast hill]

we also forgot to do that!

might have made a difference

[surreal basin]

Yeah there you go, so it’s a wash

[fast hill]

either way: I live!

Cheated death

[surreal basin]

I’m curious how often people remember to do that

Or even know you’re supposed to

[warped orbit]

it gets forgotten a lot I think

[surreal basin]

It’s important!

[warped orbit]

it is yeah

[surreal basin]

There’s always a minimum of 1 round between being knocked out and making ur save

[fast hill]

though there is something good that came out of it

in the minutes between getting healed I was thinking of who my next character was going to be

and I thought up playing a lawful good hellknight

who would be a really good foil for the neutral good champion of shelyn we have

who is anti-killing

[fast hill]

with the death of allignment

hellknight archetype needs a rework

well specifically one feat, which grants bonus damage to chaotic enemies

[fast hill]

https://cbsky.app/profile/officialhoneybun.bsky.social/post/3lk52vgy6zc2q

[surreal basin]

Wow the way that stealing works

FUCKING blows

Like the steal action

Like even out of combat

Holy shit why is it so hard

[rustic cape]

Are there any notable changes to Fireworks Technician in the remaster?

[rustic cape]

Also Golem Grafter seems slightly ridiculous

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1229 In particular this

[turbid dagger]

You are basically donating an action to next turn

[rustic cape]

… I’m an idiot

I read it as a passive

[fossil dome]

Happens to the best of us, lol

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/mouse-screaming-at-moon-gif-20016989

[fast hill]

realised that I don't feel useful as a spellcaster or support

[rapid wagon]

How's it work?

[rustic cape]

Remind me, were you playing an animist?

[rapid wagon]

question, is there a way to bring a color drained person who has been fully drained by a Color out of Space back?

or are they ultimately doomed

[fast hill]

nah commander

just generally feels like yea I could give my party buffs OR I could use my action econ to just... kill the enemies as a martial

[ocean cobalt]

true res?

or whatever the rez spell is where you just need bits of flesh instead of an intact body

[rapid wagon]

ah ok, our groups oracle is in for a sad day sometime soon

as we are attempting to rescue a person who's already been color drained, trying to get them to a temple one town over

[ocean cobalt]

ok its normal rez as well https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=resurrection

so like marginally more within reach but not by that much

[ocean cobalt]

oh wait do you mean they're still alive?

[rapid wagon]

yeah they havent crumbled to dust yet

[ocean cobalt]

that's just a normal greater restoration i think

same level for the oracle tho

[rustic cape]

The remaster has a lot of good things but breaking restoration up into like 6 different spells all of which need to be heightened for counteract checks was a terrible decision

[warped orbit]

there already were a bunch of different spells for it before

IIRC the Remaster consolidated them much more

[ocean cobalt]

they just sorted it differently

i think

[warped orbit]

it's mostly just Sound Body and whatever the mental one is called

[ocean cobalt]

they split restoration between - yeah

[warped orbit]

Clear Mind. that's the one

[ocean cobalt]

and then moved break enchantment under a different one

[warped orbit]

the heightening being required is a little annoying, but IIRC condition removal for those conditions was already at those levels before too

[ocean cobalt]

yeah it's less "making it higher level" and more what they did with like, disguise self/veil

where one is just listed as a boosted version of the other

either way all the "condition removal" spells are still filed under that one cleric 8 feat so you can still find them that way if you dont feel like remembering four different janky remaster names

[warped orbit]

oh I didn't know about Sure Footing

but yeah, it's those three, and then Cleanse Affliction for... afflictions

[fast hill]

so I've been playing the commander playtest and my current gripe is that I feel low impact

the rest of the party thinks the opposite and thinks I am the highest impact character in the party

so

[warped orbit]

well as a Commander, you most commonly just donate Strikes to other people

so that does kinda track

[fast hill]

yeahhhhhh but also I have had god awful luck with strike hard

not huge on it

it just feels like shit

[ocean cobalt]

that's just dice

happens with normalstyle attacks too

[fast hill]

yea but normal style attacks dont take my 2 actions and give it to someone else to do 1 action

I feel a bit like a glorified, party wide haste

[ocean cobalt]

i think it can be helpful to think of as a kind of spellshape

[fast hill]

Yeah sort of

[ocean cobalt]

you're casting Reach Spell on your Strike action, and then depending on the level also getting +1 untyped to both hit and damage

[fast hill]

But funnily enough I dont like casters either

[ocean cobalt]

and also applying a different class' damage feature

[astral prawn]

And yeah, Commander is definitely more force multiplier than a force

[fast hill]

I feel like my party would be better served if I was just like, a fighter

[astral prawn]

Well, does your party have any other support characters?

[fast hill]

Have an animist

They've been pretty clutch

They appreciate form up for allowing them to get close enough to not have to spend actions striding

[ocean cobalt]

that's hard to argue if the only worthwhile thing the class gives you is strike hard, yeah

[fast hill]

Form up is nice!

Anyone within my banner can stride to a location within my banner

[ocean cobalt]

yeah that's pretty good

[fast hill]

But again

Glorified haste

[ocean cobalt]

i mean i guess

[warped orbit]

the benefit of it is mostly that you give people a full bonus Strike

[ocean cobalt]

but like that's the support character thing

you give people things so they can do better thing per thing

[astral prawn]

Yeah a Commander will never be a Fighter

If you want to be a powerful martial who contributes by doing damaging strikes, maybe be a Fighter

[ocean cobalt]

i do think strike hard could probably stand to be 1 action with a cooldown because it seems like you'll be doing that a lot

[astral prawn]

But

[ocean cobalt]

but that's just personal commander thoughts and also isn't the paizo way

[astral prawn]

Party comp is important in PF2e, so be prepared for the party effectiveness to shift when they lose a Commander

[warped orbit]

you can Strike Hard, and then still do a Strike yourself

just need a mount to move you around

[ocean cobalt]

...right, you just need a fourth action on your turn

[warped orbit]

again, that's what the mount is for

mature mount for the free move

[ocean cobalt]

yeah i'm aware that's where the fourth action is coming from lmao

i just think it's stupid

[warped orbit]

or you can also just go ranged

[ocean cobalt]

and also you can strike hard then normalstyle strike with like, a bow

doesn't change what i said

[frank crystal]

Is there a creature in PF which is like, a mortal without a soul who isn’t dead?

[light gyro]

presumably something flesh and blood rather than a construct?

[frank crystal]

Yah

[light gyro]

well, im not convinced fungi have souls. not an expert though.

[vital kiln]

Expert here

We don't know what fungi have

They have something but whatever it is we're too scared to look into it

[rustic cape]

Starting Kingmaker in 1.5 hours

Gonna make some kings

[light gyro]

gming or playing?

[rustic cape]

Playing

[light gyro]

neat!!!!! i'll tell you now though the real kings are the friends we maker along the way-

[fossil dome]

Niiice

Running Kingmaker PbP myself, currently corralling and tutorialising players

[fast hill]

yooo

I'm also playing kingmaker!

commander with ambitions to, infact, be king(maker)

the other players have said "well I mean he can become general if we decide we dont want him as king"

(top 10 moments before disaster)

[light gyro]

Not asking for spoilers but I do wonder how much space there is for parties to butt heads over who gets to be in charge.

(my vote is for a woman living in a pond that throws a sword at whoever and they get to be in charge)

[fossil dome]

Exactly how much space you as GM give them

It basically says "pick someone, lol"

[fast hill]

yeah aiui there's a lot of room to have stuff go down after founding

no time limiters, so if your party wants to feud over it they can

I know a bit about it so I plan on calling upon my backstory to aid with the ||stag lord fortress attack||

specifically asking the GM if I can invite my old mercenary company to help out

[light gyro]

One party member pulls a legendary sword from the stone, another gets dream visions from god, another fits THE PROPHECY, another's from the long lost bloodline, the last one fits every trope of the evil vizier but they get so lost in herding so many would-be kings that they forget they're meant to be doing evil stuff for themselves

[fossil dome]

Oh, no, that would be hilarious

Party of 4 Exemplars, and the advisor

[fast hill]

I have been having a blast where my character actively wants to become king and no other party member actually wants that position

unfortunately for them he is the only not-good character in the party

honestly not even not-good, he has positive morals! he just is 100% convinced that he deserves this because he inherits nothing from his parents (he is a taldan noble)

[fossil dome]

Oh, that's a fun dynamic

[light gyro]

it'll be fine, they don't call it the divine wrong of kings

[fast hill]

facts!

he has basically been talking to each party member individually

and convincing them that he is the best candidate

we have:

Animist kitsune scribe from tian xia who's honestly kinda just here for the ride Is permanently in kitsune form
champion of shelyn and also a nephilim, had a big spat with my character last session because he wanted to kill bandit prisoners because we didn't have the means to manage them, she wanted to let them go. My PC decided he did not want to test big ulfen lady with the maul and let them go.
Ranger Beastkin ulfen who is also a werebear, knows literally nothing about running a civilisation
extremely drunk elven monk who's just sorta vibing and similarly here for the ride, definitely trying to get out of paying gambling debt

and then my character! Commander human mc humanface, served with a mercenary company in the Mendevian Crusades, contracted the demonplague and has been debilitated ever since

[fast hill]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4164

something is telling me this is going to be a very useful feat

[vital kiln]

Oh I remember you talking about him, did you end up going for that polearm build?

[fast hill]

Nah

I have wizard dedication but even then it's sorta mediocre

[vital kiln]

Caster dedications tend to be, starting out

[fast hill]

I am never more than a stride away from my teammates so if I need help I can just Form Up and then Strike Hard

But commander generally is not great at dealing damamge

[vital kiln]

Aye

Much more of a

https://tenor.com/view/gmod-tf2-kitty0706-chaos-insane-gif-22820282

Type

[fast hill]

Pretty much yeah

Wizard dedication is entirely for a backup using gouging claw

Which is a really good spell and I do have max int

[fossil dome]

Make sure to pick up that redcoat Volley Fire feat

[fast hill]

But I feel like I could retrain it into that one commander feat that gives me a free recall knowledge and honestly get more mileage

Especially since at 3rd level I can use warfare lore on all recall knowledge checks!!!

[fast hill]

That tactic is insane but also like level 15

It's cool but we actually have not a single ranged character in our party

[fossil dome]

Simple

17 high-level peasants with crossbows

[fast hill]

Lmfao

I have been talking to the GM about getting a troop that follows me around once we become rulers

Wish you could get a not-animal companion character

[fossil dome]

Yuuuup

[fast hill]

In theory it would effect all of them...

[fossil dome]

Exactly

[fast hill]

Affect even

[fossil dome]

Hail of arrows

[fast hill]

Actually no it'd only affect up to 6

2+int

Squadmates

[rustic cape]

My character (source: Alex B Dent on horrid birdapp)

[fossil dome]

Surely you hit at least 5 INT by that point

[fast hill]

Oh yeah

7

I mean either way a troop technically counts as a person

Wrangling 1 formation of spearmen is as difficult as wrangling 1 adventurer tbh

[fossil dome]

Yup

7 Troops of Xbows

Whole lotta dakka

[rustic cape]

I have survived a dinner party and failed every single influence check I made

In retrospect I should have done weirder shit >_>

[fast hill]

my character went for maegar vahn or whatever his name is first

I crit failed my influence check

another character crit succeeded at flirting with him

I spent the entire rest of the dinner party talking to valerie

[frank crystal]

Hmm, what’d be a good high level devil who’s based around dreams?

[surreal basin]

Could scale up a night/cuckoo hag

[frank crystal]

ok

[surreal basin]

Other than that not really unfortunately

Not much in The way of dream devils

[frank crystal]

what happens if a grappling character moves?

[surreal basin]

The grapple ends

[frank crystal]

Thanks

[fast hill]

cooked up a fighter build

which is just flail

trip them to get them off guard and to provoke AOO if they stand up
intimidating strike to frighten 1 them, giving you a bonus on if they stand up
alternatively you crit, giving them frightened 2 making it easier to crit them next time
if all goes well you have a slowly building chain of frightens, repeat until enemy is dead

take a fearsome on that flail to buff your crits even more

hell, throw in a friend with demoralise too

[fast hill]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1674&Redirected=1

someone explain to me the use of this spell at 2nd level

[surreal sapphire]

Seems vaguely useful for stealth purposes

[fossil dome]

Also great to shut enemy casters up

[fast hill]

4th level makes sense, use it on someone who runs into the enemy backline to shut them up

[fast hill]

willing targets only!

[surreal sapphire]

Also feels like it'd counteract the penalty from the noisy tag on armor

[fossil dome]

Gah, ok

[surreal sapphire]

but honestly removing an entire valid sense for detection purposes is pretty good

[fast hill]

invisibility and silence

[surreal sapphire]

Especially since it's a default omnidirectional imprecise sense

[fast hill]

wand of invisibility and wand of silence!

[surreal sapphire]

Which means they have to use a directional precise sense to find you if they have default humanoid senses and don't have an additional imprecise sense

Sight not being omnidirectional makes it actually rather easy to try and bypass as a sensory thing

[light gyro]

ough, reminded of how i had to figure out how see invisibility and disappearance interact. im still not entirely sure

[wary yoke]

So a wizard can learn it early on and not have to spend resources learning it when he has access to 4th rank spells?

Also makes the willing target immune to auditory effects from enemies

[fast hill]

see invis doesn't work

dissapearance doesn't make you invisible: it makes you undetectable through any sense

[warped orbit]

Having played a build like that, it's really good

[vital kiln]

TELL ME HOW THE GRASS TASTES, LITTLE MAN

[rustic cape]

2nd rank is for stealth, it doesn’t become a combat tool until 4th

[rapid wagon]

really good for your local rogue or monk who has to cross a space at night and/or maybe scale a position to engage with guards or something

lets you run full tilt and make no noise

if i understand that right

[trim grotto]

I reaaallly wanna play around with exemplar

I've been making builds for it constantly

[wary yoke]

I'm fortunate enough to be playing one in the PF campaign that just started, but we won't be playing again for two weeks (we alternate with a Deadlands game, though we've skipped two sessions)

Continuing from a 1E campaign, through dream magic (and the ending of my campaign) most of our characters got merged with our equivalents in this universe

So we have a very reluctant Exemplar that espouses dystheism even as he becomes a god of life and healing, a rough-and-tumble aiuvarin orc battle bard, and a halfling assassin rogue (who, in the old universe, was a bard).

Those are the returning characters, we also have an inventor that we essentially thawed out of stasis when we arrived (who promptly began cursing at children), an isekai'd champion, and one anomalous rune wizard (who just got the memories of another PC from the last campaign, the player didn't like the 2E oracle and made a new wizard)

[echo briar]

Of the new runelord sins, which ones anathema is the least bad? https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/archetypes/runelord-rm

Not invoking the void is the easiest to avoid, but its either paired with not using the elements to deal damage, or not changing physical forms, both of which lock you out of a lot

Not being able to create things is rough. like, you can't even use a spell that crushes someone with a rock, because it has to make a rock first

[turbid dagger]

I just learned
That the Daikyu got Forceful with the Remaster??
Somehow I missed this all this time
But that's actually..... really cool
Triple shot fighter is one of the few builds that will be able to reliably see the double dice forceful proc
Neat!

It's also more flat damage on a weapon class in dire need of it

[trim grotto]

I should really play a bow fighter at some point

[turbid dagger]

I worry it might get dry but I think with the daikyu change I want to give it a go

[warped orbit]

Huh

Kinda neat

[tight flare]

Soooo... I've got a temple of Erastil... But in secret this place also worships some less than savory god.
Temple is located in a small remote village in Ustalav

Right now it's Asmodeus, but it feels a bit too basic

[surreal sapphire]

Also not sure if Asmodeus's symbology and theology line up well enough with Erastil's

[tight flare]

That's one of my issues with the whole thing as well

[echo briar]

Lamashtu corrupts the family aspect

This could work https://2e.aonprd.com/Deities.aspx?ID=152

[tight flare]

Oh that couldl be interesting

[eager mountain]

grizzers are funny

https://tenor.com/view/kermit-gif-26077449

[crystal walrus]

King Gizzard and the Grizzerd Wizard

[astral prawn]

Sounds like they appeared soon after Kingmaker, I blame the PCs for this

[eager mountain]

lol

I thought the same thing

[astral prawn]

Linzi must've forgotten to mention that bit while writing about all the heroism and buff women she surrounds herself with

[frank crystal]

My druid PC is gonna be kidnapped by a boogeyman soon if he doesn’t try and actively oppose a villain who wants him dead

A boogeyman summoned by said villain to kidnap him

[fast hill]

wanna make a hoplite character but taking a spear feels like gimping myself

[turbid dagger]

Take a trident and reflavor it as a spear, or a breaching pike which is just a spear with reach and therefore befitting a martial weapon

[fast hill]

1d6 reach is rough

but makes sense for a 1h martial

might just reflavor a trident

[surreal basin]

the hobgoblin spear, the breaching pike

is pretty good

oh

yoiu mention it

uhhhh

:|

[fast hill]

breaching pike is actually really neat

[surreal basin]

what class btw?

[fast hill]

fighter probably

[surreal basin]

hard to go wrong as a fighter even with a normal spear tbh lol

[turbid dagger]

As a pike and shield fighter your damage will be Quite Low, but you'll be very durable and a big pain in the ass for the bad guys

[fast hill]

think if I do play a fighter it will be the hellknight fear stacking build I cooked up a bit

as cool as breaching pike fighter could be

just very AOO heavy, being tanky as hell

[fast hill]

it's funny too: not all that useful to go hellknight when ur just using intimidating strike

since it gets intimidation bonuses: something you wont use

[echo briar]

other than cosmos oracle, what class makes the best astronomers?

[fast hill]

wizard maybe

wizard would do astronomy

cosmos is cool

need to play a cosmos oracle sometime

cursed to see the universe as it truly is, all gods pale in comparison to those that lurk in the dark tapestry

[steel blade]

starless shadow witch could work for an astronomer, although it's more thematically about the space between the stars

[limber comet]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6z9ll?Introducing-the-Shades-of-Blood-Player-s-Guide

[limber comet]

I mean, anyone with a high int or wis, I'd assume

But it depends on what insight on the stars you're after

Cuz I feel like druids, clerics, and animists would give different answers than alchemists, wizards, or witches

Also alchemists can study astronomy too they have the int

[limber comet]

Well uh

Next adventure path announced

Mythic AP called Revenge of the Runelords, starting at level 12

[limber comet]

HOLY FUCK THE ASHEN MAN

[astral prawn]

Finally we get to learn more about this guy

[echo briar]

the

paizo forums are interesting

why do scammers think this will work?

[limber comet]

Fully furnished 1 living quarters room for rent in establish neighborhood (Sandpoint)

[keen raptor]

Sometimes making the scam obvious is part of the ploy. Helps weed out the non-gullible people from the start.

[frozen flame]

First part of the new AP, Shades of Blood, is out if you have the subscription and

This manbat has jorts

Maximum aesthetic

[eager mountain]

lol is it bad that every time I hear someone mention linzi I wanna mention that my character was her girlfriend in the short kingmaker attempt me and some friends were doing

[fast hill]

Linzi is currently being courted by the 6'5" ulfen champion of shelyn in the kingmaker party I'm in

Grahhhh trip is actually so good

I was considering a shove reach build, but step exists so shove doesn't really do much for a reach build in that sense beyond general utility

Shove reach fighter build, might I say

Instead it's back to the ol war flail trip

[astral prawn]

I was very sad that Linzi was not romanceable in the CRPG

[fast hill]

GM decided to introduce tristian (despite him not actually being in the original module) and I was like "Oh okay dont mind if I do" unfortunately, straight

[astral prawn]

Yeah the only option for gay men in Kingmaker iirc is a CE Half Orc who is already in a casual relationship and deeply into BDSM

Also he is Bi so he's not an exclusively Gay option

You can literally get into a threesome with sisters but sorry gay men you get the evil half of an open relationship and that's it

I'm not even into men nor do I identify as gay (or 100% as a bloke) but it annoys me, maybe a bit more than the Linzi thing

[fast hill]

mhm

similar shtick in rogue trader

only gay male romance in rogue trader is the evil bdsm elf

and- bisexual

[astral prawn]

Wrath has two bi romance options for Men and one gay romance with Sosiel, but that appears to be a weird situation also?

[crystal walrus]

Yeah it's typical for crpgs to do schrodingers bi nowadays, and ifk if that's better

[fast hill]

crpgs make most characters player sexual nowadays yea

[light gyro]

Who will be brave enough to create the first inverse-player-sexual crpg (every companion's sexuality does not include your character's gender)

[clever cobalt]

He's in the Runelords AP?

What's the AP about?

[limber comet]

The Trinity Star falls to Golarion and apparently a Warshard hit somewhere in Abbadon and Xanderghul is freed?? That's about the gist of it

Also you're in new Thassilon

[clever cobalt]

Nice

What's the Trinity Star again?

[frank crystal]

Any high level NPCs that use combination weapons?

[limber comet]

I don't think we really know?

It's not on the Pathfinder wiki

[frank crystal]

Hmm, how would y’all run a mech enemy?

Like one with a pilot in it

[echo briar]

Pathfinder or starfinder?

[frank crystal]

PF

[steel blade]

all the companions are in a polycule but the PC is specifically excluded

[steel blade]

i was considering something like this for my game, and the plan was to have the pilot surrender the moment the mech was too damaged to function anymore(granted, the mech was going to be a stone golem rather than a robot, and i was going to give the pilot an mechanic or driver statblock from NPC Core, in case the PCs tried to murderhobo or i otherwise needed stats for them)

[echo briar]

Sot of all things actually has one || https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1604||

[frank crystal]

Oh cool

[echo briar]

Minor spoilers for book 1

[crystal walrus]

https://youtu.be/gOYCe3hHT8A?si=Yyq82EIDhanKMwMX&t=70

i have skipped the ad.

[rapid wagon]

So I couldn't find Mortal Herald on archives of nethys. Did it go away or was I lookin wrong?

[limber comet]

There's one in npc core

[frank crystal]

what?

[limber comet]

There's a guy piloting a mechanized suit in NPC core

[frank crystal]

Oh i meant like whats the name of the NPC?

[limber comet]

Juggernaut

It's only large but still, it is very much a Guy™️ in a suit

[frozen flame]

It's in Divine Mysteries, which isn't on AoN yet

The last book they have is War of Immortals

https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/archetypes/mortal-herald-rm

On Demiplane, though

[steel blade]

👀 now debating taking that stat block and scaling it down to fit what i originally planned

[surreal basin]

I made a big mech fight just a bit ago but it was kinda made specifically for my party and would be a little harder to apply broadly

Well more of a fight with a guy in power armor but

[steel blade]

tl;dr my players solved a very simple puzzle("AW_KEN" spelled out with runes, they had a bag with other runes in it, stuck an A in the blank space), which sent power through leylines to a bunch of other dungeons across the kingdom turning them on, on their way back into town the plan is for them to find construct piloted by a random civilian who wandered into a dungeon when the door to it opened up causing a sinkhole
was on the brink of scrapping that cause i couldnt find a way to make 'magical mech' work was going to just have it be a downscaled animated statue instead but a downscaled juggernaut sounds more fun

[wooden orbit]

Working on a PC for in case I apply to join this Kingmaker campaign, and stuck on a name. They're a Sword Scion from Brevoy.

Definitely leaning toward Polish for given names to pick from, or Slavic in general if not Polish.

[eager mountain]

the trinity star is the trinity star

short answer, first time its mentioned as fara s I know

[steel blade]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1jmslk2/breakdown_of_pathfinder_2e_paizo_special_the/

Trinity Star was apparently mentioned in WoI

[clever cobalt]

Ah, found it

[limber comet]

Wanna hear a non-problem I have with Exemplar

So

I'm playing in Icewind Dale right

And it is really hard (with the tone the gm has set) to play a larger than life mythic hero

Or maybe I'm just bad lol

[echo briar]

Play a smaller than life mythic hero.

Poppet exemplar

[surreal basin]

My habits of giving my players incredibly OP bullshit continues

Giving the cleric/tank a shield that can block most damage types (energy + force and spirit) and redirect some attacks
The wizard with bad luck is getting a cloak that lets them reroll someone once per day, fly, replace a ring of sustenanc, and counteract some stuff
The gunslinger is getting a stargun that can swap between three damage types, absorb magic to power up, and do a huge blast against a bunch of people

[surreal basin]

whats a good background for a chelaxian tiefling bastard whose a knave

its for kingmaker so i took kingdom outcast

[eager mountain]

I really need to get around to reading the new books

[frank crystal]

With the new dragons coinciding with each magic type, did they expand the dragon form spell to every magic type?

[clever cobalt]

Yes

[frank crystal]

Sweet

[solar thorn]

Yeah the new dragon forms go crazy

In my Abomination Vaults game, the war cleric of Ivuku dragonshifted to fight ||The Black Dragon on floor 9|| and it fucking whipped

Kill got stolen by the ranger's fat lazy snake though

[warped orbit]

snake w

[novel merlin]

Thinking about not like nerfing synesthesia but occasionally giving caster enemies counterspell

And occult enemies sometimes have it and like slow

Juuust enough to give my partys resentment witch a challenge

[warped orbit]

I mean, you can also just kill their familiar

[limber comet]

I really hope the all-but-confirmed Monster Core 2 adds more of these new dragons

[novel merlin]

The resentment familiar part isn't suuuuper problematic because the party isn't great at leveraging it

They have a lot of fear effects which resentment can't extend

[surreal basin]

Hmmm

Okay my players are level 6, there’s a small side quest I wanna do with a gunsmith believing his workshop he just inherited is haunted

But I don’t know if I wanna do just a straight up ghost

So what could it be instead of a ghost

[trail nova]

Always the scooby doo classic of someone else wanting to scare him off.

[solar storm]

Brownies who got into guns

[surreal basin]

Gremlins in general aren’t a terrible pick yeah

I’d need to scale them up a bit tho

[turbid dagger]

Reflavor a troop or swarm into an improbably large amount of them

[light gyro]

They defeated an 'animated' suit of armour and a hundred gremlins pour out of it.
Actually, damn, I'm stealing that one

[surreal basin]

Feeling an itch to design an inn/restful night mechanic where sleeping in certain inns/using certain supplies gives buffs

Like pillars of eternity

I think the baseline is gonna be “what lifestyle are you paying for” which gives you a buffer temp hp u start the day with, and maybe at higher levels a little bonus like Guidance u can spend at your leisure

[surreal basin]

If you don’t pay lifestyle costs or subsist then you get this

[surreal basin]

Jotted down while getting to sleep

[echo briar]

My worry is that this could slow the pacing down to a crawl, with the party wanting to take way more long rests to get these bonuses.

[worthy stump]

Could make the bonuses last longer in that case, perhaps. Take a long rest in an Extravagant lifestyle and it lasts for a week or something like that. Encourages not living like a murderhobo without having to take frequent

Or have some of the bonuses refresh every so often during the day, so they don’t feel the need to long rest again to get the guidance or temp HP back

[rapid wagon]

with a magus, what's the argument in-favor of staying in your stance rather than cycling back into spellstriking asap?

I imagine there are at least some situations where thats a thing right?

[echo briar]

spell striking doesn't end arcane cascade

and if you aren't talking about arcane cascade, then I don't think any other stance ends when you spell strike either, or at least not any stance a magus would actually want.

[worthy stump]

Indeed

[surreal basin]

You need to wait 8 hours to long rest again in 2e

If your players are willing to wait an entire day after every combat uh

Idk put a time pressure on them lol

That’s a different problem

And tbh is something you can already do

[rustic cape]

I think to some degree elfgames just work on the basis of a social agreement not to play in that extraordinarily boring way

The counter to the "15 minute adventuring day" isn't rules, it's "look guys, this fuckin' sucks"

Really elfgames could afford to say that

"This game will work well when played without constantly trying to subvert and out-think everything, if you do so, you're own your own motherfucker"

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Idk I’ll addendum the rules to say “if you abuse this the GM instantly kills you”

[rustic cape]

"If I wanted to try to anticipate every problem decision anyone could ever make, I would work in open-world videogames, but this is tabletop, so I gotta tell you that if you don't buy into the social contract you're not my problem"

[surreal basin]

Anyway

Very fair point to bring up in theory

But tbh my answer is that there’s nothing stopping this style of gameplay in PF2e already

[rustic cape]

Yeah it definitely plagues both discussion of games and real tables

But I think the answer is a GM-level "please don't"

[ocean cobalt]

that or a nebulous "oh make sure theres a bad thing that happens in like three days"

on the part of the book

[ocean cobalt]

starlit

otherwise i can't think of any

[surreal basin]

I think they just misunderstood how the stance worked

[ocean cobalt]

melee magus rhythm is already rough without spending an extra action on a stance that's kind of ok

[ocean cobalt]

why

nothing abt what he said indicated that to me

[rapid wagon]

Ohh, I think I just misunderstood how it works then. I thought it was a cadence between going back and forth

like spellstrike into cascade, decide if you wanna sit in cascade for a bit or go back into spellstrike after doing stuff

[surreal basin]

:3

[ocean cobalt]

curses

[surreal basin]

Anyway imo it’s worth it

In a longer fight, with your stance in optimal conditions, it can be a pretty hefty chunk of damage

That usually comes with other ebenfits

*benefits

Like laughing shadow gets a speed increase

[worthy stump]

Yeah, definitely

And LS gets a big boost to its cascade damage against Offguard targets too

I’d say Arcane Cascade is very helpful, but not crucial. Focus on getting off a Spellstrike first, then try to enter Cascade off of your Focus spell or another 1 action spell. That’s my general strategy on Magus, though I adjust it based on the encounter

[surreal basin]

Sometimes I uhhh

Sometimes I one action spell into arcane cascade immediately for big fights

[worthy stump]

Also very fair, I’ve done that too

Especially since my Magus is Sparkling Targe, those shield buffs are handy

[wary yoke]

That's the easy one, though the GM can always start initiating encounters after that 15 minutes

[turbid dagger]

With Kgalaserke's Axes coming in Rival Academies I imagine that will become a very normal thing for magi

[surreal basin]

What?

Also putting together my inn bonuses

[turbid dagger]

Kgalaserke's Axes is a rank 2 spell that came in Rival Academies
Arcane/Occult, 1 action, +1 status to attack rolls for 1 minute

[surreal basin]

oh jeez

[turbid dagger]

Magus slotting that and popping it + cascade at the start of a fight is a no-brainer

It doesn't heighten like heroism but

[surreal basin]

y3eah i guess its just worse heroism but one action

[keen raptor]

One action attack buff is nothing to sneeze at. You usually aren't going to be doing three attacks per round anyway because the third probably won't hit most of the time.

Especially since one minute is usually the entire combat

[warped orbit]

Oh that's very good

Mini Heroism

Great spell to learn with a casting dedication too

No heightening is a bit of a bummer

[surreal basin]

I think it might a little too much of a must grab

If it heightened great

[warped orbit]

possibly, but not that much more than Heroism already is I think

[rustic cape]

They can, but that feels very ... oppositional?

Tit-for-tat when we could and probably should just be having a conversation

[wary yoke]

Play stupid games and all that

[surreal basin]

Oh would u guys like the list of inn room modifiers so far?

They’re mostly grabbed from the kingmaker meals

[wary yoke]

Also, you'd make the paranoid player that loads up on "just in case" equipment ecstatic

[surreal basin]

Modifiers:

Inn, Any Level - Plague Ridden: -50%, exposed to random disease of players level or lower

Inn, Level 5 - Fortifying: +25%, +1 Status Bonus to Fortitude Saves for 24 Hours

Inn, Level 5 - Rallying: +25%, +1 status bonus to Will saves for 24 hours.

Inn, Level 5 - Relaxing: +25%, +1 status bonus to Will saves for 24 hours.

Inn, Level 10: High Quality: +100%, +2 status bonus to saving throws for 24 hours

Inn, Level 3 - Study: +15%, +1 status bonus to Arcana checks made to Identify Magic, Learn a Spell, and Recall Knowledge for 24 hours.

Inn, Level 3 - Weird: +15%, +1 status bonus to Occultism checks made to Identify Magic, Learn a Spell, and Recall Knowledge for 24 hours.

Inn, Level 3 - Garden: +15%, +1 status bonus to Nature checks made to Identify Magic, Learn a Spell, and Recall Knowledge for 24 hours.

Inn, Level 3 - Gideon’s Gift: +15%, +1 status bonus to Religion checks made to Identify Magic, Learn a Spell, and Recall Knowledge for 24 hours.

Inn, Level 10 - Hunting Lodge: +100%,
a +2 status bonus to damage rolls from melee Strikes against aberrations, beasts, animals, and dragons for the next 24 hours.

Inn, Level 2 - Relaxing Baths: +10%, recover an additional 4d6 Hit Points. If drained, they reduce their drained condition by 2 points rather than by 1.

Inn, Level 9 - Diplomat’s Suite: +60%, +2 status bonus to Diplomacy checks to Request and Intimidation checks to Coerce for the next 24 hours.

Inn, Level 16 - Miraculous: +300%, +3 status bonus to saving throws against poison and disease effects for 24 hours, fortune on recovery checks

[worthy stump]

Oh boy. Battlezoo cooked for April Fool’s again

https://battlezoo.com/products/free-battlezoo-ancestries-demigods-pdf?mc_cid=065becbc50&mc_eid=UNIQID

[echo briar]

To me, it feels OP, but not in a way thats funny

[sacred bluff]

https://youtu.be/nmJDJZNmSqQ

[solar storm]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6ziux?Foolish-Housekeeping-and-Other-Articles

This is funny

[sacred bluff]

Tonight in pathfinder 1e, three level 18 characters managed to clear a CR 26 boss fight through the boss going first casting time stop, and a contingent time stop. One of those three characters didn't manage to move the needle in any way. No damage, no failed saves, never the sole target of an offensive move.

[surreal basin]

wow thats gotta feel bad

[sacred bluff]

Yeah it wasn't great, but the player was a pretty good sport about it. Especially knowing the encounter wasn't actually supposed to be beaten. It was supposed to be an endurance test before a deus ex machina. We're apparently the first party who has ever actually beaten it.

[surreal basin]

Oh wow

Is it an AP?

[astral prawn]

So how exactly did they beat a CR 26?

[echo briar]

In Pf1, thats not too absurd.

[clever cobalt]

oh was about to say

CR 25 is the max in PF2E

[rustic cape]

Yeah that’s just a somewhat optimized high-level party, if there was only one opponent

Solos do not stand up well against multiples in 3.P

[surreal basin]

Oh uhhhhhh

AON updated

With everything

[rustic cape]

Wait everything?

[echo briar]

not Aps

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah

Not APs

But literally everything else

[rustic cape]

Divine Mysteries and G&G revised?

[surreal basin]

Yeah

[rustic cape]

Dang

[surreal basin]

And rival academies and npc core

[light gyro]

sick

[rustic cape]

They must have streamlined their process

That’s great

[surreal basin]

Well, they mentioned with WOI that they were going back to the old schedules

[light gyro]

damn they didnt lie, that core can really npc

[rustic cape]

For all that demiplane is a simplified reading experience, I prefer AoN for its superior search functions and better internal connectivity

Demiplane looks like a book, and has few advantages beyond one >_>

[wary yoke]

Final Sacrifice always struck me as being a weird spell for everyone to have access to

[warped orbit]

it is kinda weird

[rustic cape]

Witches

Sorcerers

Choose-a-list types

Here’s a challenge: what’s a workable concept for an arcane-only full caster that doesn’t feel like it should really just be a wizard?

[ocean cobalt]

like a robot-type class

someone that can do magic because they've been like, augmented or are augmenting themselves

[rustic cape]

That could track

[echo briar]

Astral mage.

Teleportation, force constructs, that sort of thing.

Also, technomancer

[keen raptor]

Enchanter. Limited spells but can easily craft/enchant gear to store spells or get other effects.

[thorny berry]

following off the heels of necromancer, any sort of 'we made a spell school into an entire class' thing

...I still miss spell schools, I liked the cycle of archetypes that just had access to a school instead of a tradition like beguiler

[sacred bluff]

It's a 3pp adventure module we're testing.

[sacred bluff]

The contributing party members were a 1pp magus and my character was a spheres/akasha combat monster. Managed to push the through a first-action time stop and a contingent time stop with the power of boosted damage and a couple greater dispel magics, one of which was got by a ring of counterspells.

[light gyro]

spoilers for chapter 2 of book 6 of strength of thousands. ||bAnter||

[limber comet]

Well

Damn

Shades of Blood has a Sanguimancer archetype

[rustic cape]

Flavor-wise, what’s the intention here?

[rustic cape]

Thinking about this more (and talking with others elsewhere), I think a possible throughline of arcane magic is that it's mechanistic

[light gyro]

is there a good reference for which classes get access to what traditions?

i'd say arcane witch has an explicit, magical tie with its teacher, that a wizard doesn't, and a wizard doesn't necessarily capture the fantasy of any better

[warped orbit]

yeah
except it doesn't actually support casters very much, weirdly

[rustic cape]

A friend raises another idea for arcane: someone who has "peeked behind the veil" and draws their power from directly manipulating the machinery of reality

[echo briar]

Kinetisist, but with the atral plane, which is probably worthy of its own class

[surreal basin]

You could

Could also make it a class archetype

[astral prawn]

Transient Kineticist, drawing their power from the more esoteric planes of the Inner Sphere?

[steel blade]

i still want a Kineticist equivalent for the outer planes

[warped orbit]

Gotta do Incarnate again

[rustic cape]

Incarnum was fun

[ocean cobalt]

how much of the struggle here is inherited dnd classes being unreasonably conceptually broad, especially wiz/sorc

wizard being "anyone who studies magic to perform it" and sorcerer being "anyone who doesn't do that"

like those by themselves are already stepping on so many toes

[rustic cape]

I think sorcerer is reasonably more specific, but I would say the issue is more that the arcane list is sorta "wizard magic"

[warped orbit]

Arcane is just kinda "everything except healing"

[rustic cape]

But I also think it might be workable to reframe it as "mechanistic magic"

[warped orbit]

tbqh, I'm kinda souring on universal spell lists as a thing

[rustic cape]

I have mixed feelings

[warped orbit]

it just leads to casters being kinda same-y

because the majority of their budget is taken up by a list of spells they share with other casters

[rustic cape]

Some caster classes are more distinctive than others

Like, wizard and druid feel more similar than either of those and animist

[rustic cape]

And have classes that use mechanisms different from a wizard's study of Magical Principles, as it were

[warped orbit]

also relatedly my pipedream would kinda be just getting rid of slot casting

and make all casters have their own unique stuff to do instead

[trail nova]

I think they end up feeling distinct despite the lists - Animist is notable in large part for a lot of off list access

[ocean cobalt]

hard agree but i am also a fervent "Spell List and Spellcasting as separate from other class features and rules" hater

[ocean cobalt]

ah yea lmao

[rustic cape]

It also has a ton of action economy centered around its unique bullshit

So in play that's always happening and making it feel different

[trail nova]

Big Spheres of Power fan myself.

[ocean cobalt]

sure but that's despite the spellcasting not because of it

[warped orbit]

Spheres is kinda good for that, yeah

need to actually read into it more some time

my thoughts on this were actually kinda rekindled by the Necromancer playtest

[rustic cape]

What I'm saying is that caster classes with shared lists can be differentiated more strongly by giving them more distinctive stuff to do in addition to or as part of casting

[warped orbit]

because while I was reading through that, I just kept thinking I wish they just didn't even have their limited slots and the class just went all in on the focus spells and cantrips

[ocean cobalt]

i think in pf2e specifically the spell lists make a lot of sense because a lot of pf2e design is "what if these dnd 3e elements were fully integrated into the game instead of just being weird holdovers"

[rustic cape]

I also personally like slot casting 🤷‍♂️

It's also meant to be some degree of future-proofing, I think

[trail nova]

I also like that it makes “being the divine caster” much less tied to class, so stuff needs more interesting mechanics.

[rustic cape]

The lists

I mean

[surreal basin]

I do think that “every class needs to be extremely thematically distinct “ isn’t a good way to actually look at classes

[ocean cobalt]

that's part of the integrating yeah

[warped orbit]

especially in PF2 I just find it very limiting

and we have also seen with Kineticist now that a slotless "caster" can work just fine

[ocean cobalt]

out of curiosity why

[rustic cape]

I don't even know that that is my position, I asked this because I was thinking about how only wizard was arcane-only and how it's not easy to think of strong thematic alternatives

[surreal basin]

Oh no for sure it’s just more a pet peeve of mine so I felt the desire to push back on it as an assumption

[ocean cobalt]

i personally think the Spellcasting Experience is pretty good but it's a layout and niche protection thing that bugs me

[rustic cape]

I'm not trying to stake out a position so much as toy with these questions, as it were

[surreal basin]

[ocean cobalt]

i mean sure but we are talking about a feature that comprises like 40% of the class here

[warped orbit]

though I am realizing now I am just kinda reinventing 4e yet again

[ocean cobalt]

i just think you could more efficiently lay it out as 1-4 classes that subclasses are strapped to instead of the weirdness that currently exists

[warped orbit]

but I do honestly think a framework for casters that is basically all just 'cantrips' and focus spells would be neat

[surreal basin]

See but then that would reduce mechanical variance immensely

You couldn’t have different orders of druids AND primal witches, both working differently

You would just have Primal Caster with whatever mechanic you landed on for them

And if the only thing uniting the subclasses would be the spell list, alternatively….

Then you’ve just invented the current paradigm again

[rustic cape]

I could tell you: "I enjoy the component of planning and situational optimization, and think that mechanically PF2e works well with your lower-level slots becoming increasingly devoted to utility spells and stuff that doesn't need to scale while your number of Big Level-Appropriate Damage Options remains roughly the same as you level" but while I think that's true I'm not sure that's actually the reason. I think the actual reason is best-illustrated if I pose a counter-question: what's your favorite color?

[ocean cobalt]

red

[rustic cape]

Why

[ocean cobalt]

been watching gundam

[rustic cape]

My point being I don't have a rational answer

[surreal basin]

I do also wanna say that slotted spellcasters do have a good uhhhh
Vancian casting is good for adding new stuff in the future

[rustic cape]

I just like it

[ocean cobalt]

(i do follow tho)

[surreal basin]

Like it’s easier and makes content for more people to add a new spell, then it is to add a new like,

Subclass

[rustic cape]

And this is big because classes aren't just thematic packages, they're more critically playstyle packages (something PF2e could stand to be more transparent about imo)

[ocean cobalt]

yeah that's fair

[surreal basin]

I mean imo classes conceptually are play style packages over thematic packages, ever since like

Dnd 3

[ocean cobalt]

well yeah. i agree, but i think i'd be more understanding from that standpoint if they were more transparent about it

i wonder if maybe my problem is i'm thinking about spellcasting as a class feature but not thinking about weapons in the same way

[surreal basin]

I will say thematically that wizard is “scholar of magic” in like

[rustic cape]

"I want to play an alchemist character but the class is so fiddly and irritating, they should change how it plays" is something that was oft-repeated before the remaster and is still sometimes repeated now but like ... alchemist plays a critical role of letting a certain type of player interface with the game in their favorite way

[surreal basin]

An “I went to college and did a thesis”

Way

So honestly anything outside of that would work

As a new class

[rustic cape]

Agreed

[surreal basin]

To pivot back

[rustic cape]

The big thing is that it has to feel suitably arcane in that wibbly-wobbly way that depends mostly on vibes

[ocean cobalt]

ok to be clear i have nothing against The Spellcasting Experience in play

[surreal basin]

So like, an astronomer that has sussed out the secrets of magic from reading the stars could be a new class that would fit

I do agree that spellcasters could stand to get some cooler stuff in their class kit though yes

[warped orbit]

my thing with spell slots is mostly that they are now the only real attritional thing left in the game
and it feels very strangely dissonant with how the rest of the game is generally paced IMO

[surreal basin]

Yeaaash

It’s a little weird

Martials probably should all have some form of like

Long rest based resource

Since as it stands casters are the only people who like

[rustic cape]

Of the various ideas people have shared, the two that caught my attention most were:

• cyborg caster whose magic comes from implants and the like
• caster who has seen behind the veil of reality and is working directly on the gearwork they perceived

[surreal basin]

EVER need to long rest lol

[rustic cape]

I think the first was install wizard

[ocean cobalt]

it does also run up against The Classic Issue

[ocean cobalt]

(it was! teehee)

[warped orbit]

in my AV game, we have cleared entire floors of the dungeon in a single long rest
and we could have still kept going in most cases unless we needed to go back to town to sell stuff or rest to get rid of specific long duration debuffs like afflicitions

because we were a party of four martials, we just had almost no attrition

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Yeah more long lasting debuffs would help actually

[ocean cobalt]

of "i want to play swordguy" kind of not having shit to do other than skill checks

outside of the encounter

which skill checks are like, alright, but

[warped orbit]

and even those don't matter too much anymore, now that I have Treat Condition and Paragon Battle Medicine

[surreal basin]

Yeah that’s fair

Well

Paragon battle medicine is rare for a reason

Is what I’ll say about that

[rustic cape]

I don't think the arcane list class thing is insoluble, I was just drawing a conceptual blank and wanted to know what ideas other people have

[ocean cobalt]

honestly my original wiz/sorc message was born from me thinking about both of these

[warped orbit]

(plus Godless Healing and Mortal Healing, for good measure)

[ocean cobalt]

and feeling that the first one is "ok this is just sorcerer again" and the second is "ok this is just wizard again"

[rustic cape]

Not sure I agree, but a lot would ultimately come down to specific class mechanics

[surreal basin]

Yeah

[rustic cape]

My feeling about the second one is that it wouldn't be someone who has studied

[surreal basin]

Like I think you could boil anything down to wizard and sorcerer but the problem is

[rustic cape]

It would be someone who had An Unfortunate Encounter with eldritch truths

[surreal basin]

You’re getting too in your own head about it

It doesn’t matter that it COULD be sorcerer

Just like rogue COULD be fighter

[ocean cobalt]

famously, there is a class for that

[surreal basin]

I actually don’t think Witch is good for that personally

[ocean cobalt]

fighter is another problem child in my eyes actually

[rustic cape]

Yeah no Witch is about having a patron

Not about seeing the Gate like in Fullmetal Alchemist and having the knowledge seared into your mind

Wisdom-based, maybe

[ocean cobalt]

swapping int for wis has juice

i do wanna say i'm not sure how like

[rustic cape]

You could do it as like ... the person's mind is now inextricably linked with the Dark Tapestry or some other new bullshit, and a lot of their non-spell list stuff is about not holding it back and allowing stuff to get through from that sub-basement of reality

[ocean cobalt]

CHIM-y for lack of a better word you could sell it as while still using spells-as-such and not like

[surreal basin]

I would actually like more of a like

[ocean cobalt]

pf1e words of power or whtever

[surreal basin]

Dedicated occult caster

About knowing or chasing a Truth

Like an occultist kinda fucker

[ocean cobalt]

bard!

[surreal basin]

Ehhhh

Too tied up in music

Thematically

[ocean cobalt]

fair

[rustic cape]

It it true that bard is kinda weird as the key occult caster

Arguably psychic is the better fit

[surreal basin]

Also ultimately PF2e is a second edition

[ocean cobalt]

my thing with bard is that "magic=music" is too cool to be tied to one class honestly

[surreal basin]

It just can’t get rid of wizard, sorc, or fighter

Not on the table

[rustic cape]

Yep

[surreal basin]

Also can’t get rid of bard

Just not allowed

[ocean cobalt]

well yeah

they kinda got rid of paladin

[surreal basin]

They didn’t really tho

They just expanded it

[rustic cape]

For the cyborg caster concept, maybe their deal would be mechanical modularity ala inventor, that tends to focus them around doing stuff with certain branches of on-list spells in particular

[surreal basin]

I still think my 2e warlock would be all about like

Building a class basically

Taking drawbacks and bonuses

That make you into a weird fucked up little guy

[ocean cobalt]

actually here's a question. if you were in charge if everything about a pf3 which like 10 classes would you pick as the only "main" ones allowed, with the rest being folded in

[warped orbit]

Yeah because that's Oracle 😛

[surreal basin]

Hmmm

[ocean cobalt]

mine would probably be like. investigator, alchemist, swashbuckler, gunslinger, summoner, exemplar, kineticist, oracle, thaumaturge/pf1 occultist, and rogue probably

[surreal basin]

Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Warlock/Witch as pure occult, Kineticist, Champion, Alchemist, Commander, Druid, Wizard

[ocean cobalt]

exemplar probably having some barbarian/champion in there

oh commander's a good one

i was thinking roll it into rogue but it being its own primary thing makes sense

[keen raptor]

I've always thought that it's a bit weird that Bard is an Occult caster of all things in 2e

It kind of feels like they were just picked for it because of the relative lack of pure occult casters.

Besides Witch and some Sorc bloodlines anyway.

(Wait, even Witch isn't purely occult since they pick their tradition like sorc does)

[ocean cobalt]

the spells they get make sense, calling it "occult" is kind of a tonal mismatch tho imo

[warped orbit]

It actually fits very well with how Occult magic is actually described

Occult magic is about storytelling ultimately

It works because people expect it to work

[ocean cobalt]

like yeah the Mind Magic class gets the Mind Spells tradition

[warped orbit]

So Bards fit into that perfectly

[ocean cobalt]

part of this being the explanation is bards being the class occult was built for

[keen raptor]

What makes it even stranger is that most of the Occult sorcerer bloodlines get exactly the kind of tone you'd expect from calling something "occult"

[ocean cobalt]

like the occult list is the bard list in the same way the primal list is the druid list

[warped orbit]

It is in part a retroactive explanation yes
I still like it a lot though

Especially since it also got us Thaum

[ocean cobalt]

yeah i think it's pretty cool

well, thaum supposedly does actually know all that

despite the charisma

[warped orbit]

They do know

But Thaum is also still about making thematic connections

[ocean cobalt]

this is true yeah

[warped orbit]

It's about the thematics and appearances of things

That's why a Thaum can oppose a tyrant by brandishing a broken chain

The chain itself has no magical properties at all

[ocean cobalt]

well yeah

[warped orbit]

But the thematic connection does the work

Occult magic in general works similarly

[ocean cobalt]

idk how often i feel like the storytelling bit is really elaborated on tho

like it feels like it's in the bard class description and the thaumaturge class description and not really anywhere else. and thaumaturge already has a pretty tenuous relationship with spell traditions anyway

[warped orbit]

Secrets of Magic talks about it pretty extensively for Occult

Dark Archives also a bit

[echo briar]

I think game design wise, wizard, Druid, cleric, bard do work the best for simple representations of each class, fighter and rouge for simple martials, witch and sorcerer for pick a lists, and probably monk and barbarian for more thematic but still simple martials. Maybe switch out witch for alchemist for something more advanced

I think the CRB classes are very good for the first book. Thaumaturge and kinetisist and exemplars are great for follow up books, but not for the first thing a player will read.

You also want very flexible classes to start with. The rouge can do a decent swash or investigator impression until those classes are released, but neither of them can do that great of a rogue impression. Same with fighter+ cleric dedication for champ or exemplar, or a primal sorc for kinetisist. They are temp fixes, but you need those when you only have one book.

[plucky snow]

Fighter
Rogue
Marauder (renamed barbarian)
Champion
Wizard
Cleric
Sorcerer
Kineticist

[rustic cape]

Too divine

[warped orbit]

I get that, yeah
but "you glimpse some kind of cosmic truth and it changes you" is basically exactly the pitch for PF2 Oracle

[ocean cobalt]

kinda the animist/druid issue innit

like, obviously we know how these are different. but also how are they different

[rustic cape]

Animists bind spirits to themselves and don't have specific ties to nature

[craggy thunder]

Where does naturalist/druidic type spellcasting fit in here? (genuinely curious cuz I find the question install asked fun)

[rustic cape]

Like yeah some of them are nature spirits but one of the available apparitions is a murder clown

[craggy thunder]

Another is a spirit of vengeful combat

[ocean cobalt]

ok that's legit actually

[rustic cape]

They're not really especially similar to druids

Divine casters who engage spiritual beings to aid them

Tbf they do kind of tread on druid's ground via shapeshifting

Mechanically, I mean

[rustic cape]

Your conduit to divine power eschews the traditional channels of prayer and servitude—you instead glean sacred truths and great mysteries embodied in overarching concepts, whether because you perceive the common ground across multiple deities or circumvent their power entirely. You explore one of these mysteries and draw upon its power to cast miraculous spells, but that power comes with a terrible price: a curse that grows stronger the more you draw upon it, which you might uphold as an instrument of the divine or view as punishment from the gods.
I feel like this is a somewhat different vibe but I suppose I can see the commonality

[trail nova]

My list is a bit off the beaten path, but:
Vanguard (Champion, commander, fighter’s frontline identity, Barbarian)
Paragon (Monk, Gunslinger, Weapon Specialist Fighter)
Armiger (combat/str side of rogue, Ranger, generalist part of fighter)
Trickster (Alchemist, bits of Thaum and inventor, skill side of rogues.)
Learned (Prepared Full casters and bard, emphasis on slow but versitile)
Gifted (Oracle, Sorc. Power but with drawbacks/less control.)
Battle mage (war cleric, 3.5e Warmage but good, all the “full caster gish” attempts that suck. Would bring mid-casters back for this.)
Magus (action economy reduction for casting and fighting.)
Ascendant (Mutagenist, Shifter, the more supernatural parts of Barbarian. Guy who changes forms and powers up)

I’d also be pulling a lot from Spheres of Power.

[craggy thunder]

Kind of fucked up the formatting, given I answered guided by 'which class would you put where in the classic Big 4 RPG roles'

Fighter (encompassing the base concept, Champion, Barbarian, Monk, Kineticist and Swash), Rogue (encompassing the base concept, Alchemist, Investigator, Inventor, Ranger, Gunslinger), Channeler (encompassing Cleric, Animist, Druid, Oracle, Summoner, Witch, and Thaumaturge), Sorcerer (encompassing Wizard, Sorcerer, Magus, Psychic, and Bard)

Sorcerer in my answer means 'fucker who can magic through some means other than direct aid from another source'

And Channeler 'fucker who can magic with direct aid from another source'

Rogue is all the classes with a lot of skills or out of combat expertise, Fighter is the best sluggers

Now my answer also requires an entire rework of how magic works, cuz we are mixing lists like crazy here

[light gyro]

||scout, heavy, sniper, medic, engineer, soldier, spy, pyro, demoman, another spy.||

[ocean cobalt]

right answer

[craggy thunder]

I think a funny commonality with myself and Jenna is we both had trouble fitting Gunslinger somewhere

[rustic cape]

I dunno I'd say something like

• Wizard (but maybe it can steal some shit from psychic?)
• Fighter
• Rogue
• Some sort of barbarian/monk mix
• Animist but with primal spells and it eats some of druid's flavor
• Oracle but with the occult list
• Cleric
• Alchemist
• Sorcerer
• Mashup of Champion and Thaum

[craggy thunder]

'mashup of champion and thaum'

[ocean cobalt]

i think if i was actually sticking to my guns in my original answer i would put gunslinger in rogue

[craggy thunder]

https://tenor.com/view/shaq-shaquille-o'neal-wasnt-familiar-with-your-game-i-owe-you-an-apology-not-familiar-with-your-game-gif-6900912926266666776

Oh we've also all seem to have forgotten exemplar lmao

[rustic cape]

My take is that Sorcerer should play as "the generic caster", while all four list-specific casters should be weird and do weird shit

[trail nova]

Nah, gunslinger perfectly fits my Paragon - it’s the weapon specialist class that focuses on a single weapon to the exclusion of all else.

[craggy thunder]

eh, fair I suppose

[ocean cobalt]

in my mind rogue is the Extremely Good Normalguy class, so it eats the fighter and slinger

[craggy thunder]

Though I felt the list was meant to be 'what classes would remain, with other class concepts folded into possible progression'

[ocean cobalt]

and has sparingly few "bespoke" class features in exchange for the best weapon accuracy and a shit ton of skills and feats

[craggy thunder]

So 'a class that could build as either a monk or a gunslinger' kind of mindfucked me <XD

[surreal basin]

To be clear I also think bloat is a fake problem most of the time

[trail nova]

Fair. I kind of split rogue into “good fighter with a focus on dirty tricks” in Armiger, the switch-hitter class, while Trickster picked up the “acrobatic/thief/skill expert” side along with gadgets and alchemy stuff.

[surreal basin]

Insofar as it’s impossible to not have some kind of “here’s a lot of things” when you have a long running game

[rustic cape]

So wizard with amping cantrips from psychic for arcane, animist action economy nonsense for primal, oracle curse nonsense for occult, and ... cleric needs something more to be tbh

[trail nova]

See, I was looking at them as both “we specialize in a weapon”

[craggy thunder]

I think we've all acheived the actual goal of elucidating what roles we think most important or interesting to promote or cede to XD

[rustic cape]

I suppose the something more could just be "inherently more gishy, martial-level proficiencies instead of caster-level"

[ocean cobalt]

i was honestly focusing on like... what Types Of Guy are there

for mine

[rustic cape]

Alchemist is mandatory imo

[ocean cobalt]

oh yeah def

[rustic cape]

You need someone who specifically interacts with the item system

[ocean cobalt]

alchemist swashbuckler and investigator are all extremely types of guys

[rustic cape]

Champion and thaum can be merged pretty neatly

[warped orbit]

tbh, Alchemist working with normal items has always been a bit of a peeve of mine

[rustic cape]

I appreciate that you and many other people share this view, but there is a subset of players who specifically need a class like that

That's why it's mandatory

[warped orbit]

my view is always that tying Alchi to regular consumables like that holds back both item design and Alchemist as a class

[rustic cape]

There is a class that uses a bespoke menagerie of items to do cool stuff

It's thaum

[ocean cobalt]

• "legendary warrior" is a type of guy
• "normal human overachiever" is a type of guy
• "sherlock holmes" is a type of guy distinct from that guy
• "two guys" is a type of guy
• "elemental blasts" is a type of guy
• "mage but scared of it" is a type of guy

[rustic cape]

Does it take more work and more reading to get alchemist up to the normal balance baseline that other classes hit? Yes, that is a feature, not a bug

[trail nova]

I was also doing this, but in a sort of different way.

[surreal basin]

I mean my opinion is that alchemist should be like 1e

Where it gets items that no one else can use

[rustic cape]

Quite possibly!

[warped orbit]

1e Alchi was casting spells that were just flavored as items
and I do think it worked better mostly

[surreal basin]

I mean

[rustic cape]

But in general, I am good friends with An Alchemist Player

[surreal basin]

I guess

[craggy thunder]

My SF gm is running pf2e for my group in the summer 😌

[rustic cape]

And I feel I have to respect that classes sometimes serve different types of people

[warped orbit]

well okay, they had bombs too
and mutagens

[ocean cobalt]

i like the direction they took pf2 alchemist and i think all its problems stem from them not committing to the bit hard enough tbh

[rustic cape]

Could be!

[surreal basin]

I mean yes

My problems with Alch aren’t “I personally don’t like it” :p

[ocean cobalt]

i do think this only actually works so much

[rustic cape]

I was mostly arguing with Alaen

[surreal basin]

My problems with alch aren’t significantly lessened actually

With the remaster

[ocean cobalt]

not disagreeing in this case just like, in general

[warped orbit]

I just mostly feel like the amount of people who prefer current Alch is a lot smaller than people who get disappointed by it not being what they expected it to be

[ocean cobalt]

opportunity cost etc