Pathfinder

[silver geyser]

There's also the ancient cyclops empire of Ghol-Ghan.

Which doesn't have a ton of details, but there's strong suggestions that what led to the collapse and degeneration of the Cyclops was Daemonic intervention.

[frank crystal]

I know but I like I assume they’re at least related you know?

They’re called Jotunkin, they gotta have some relation to giants

[surreal basin]

Oh u I didn’t mean to add so many exclamations lmao

[frank crystal]

Who’s Thassilon?

[frank crystal]

Oh thank god you seemed kinda mad at me I was worried I brought up something really annoying

[surreal basin]

No lmao

[frank crystal]

But yah I know Jotunkin aren’t giants but I gotta assume they’re like, cousins at least

[surreal basin]

I think what happened to the cyclops was actually confirmed in the godsrain novel iirc

Hold on

||They used their prophetic powers to reach into the future and saw Rovagug break free and it made their leadership fucking crazy, thus the sudden descent into insane hedonism||

[silver geyser]

Oh, neat!

Gotta love that ||Chaotic Evil Radiation that always emenates from Rovagug and causes problems||

[silver geyser]

Thassilon was one of the ancient, pre-Earthfall empires of Golarion. It was an offshoot of the Aboleth experiment of Azlant, and consisted of a guy and his disciples who had the audacity to theorize that things other than humans might have great knowledge to contribute to magic and the management of society.

[fossil dome]

||One of my favourite lore things||

[frank crystal]

Oh, what did they do for magic then?

[silver geyser]

So beforehand, the Aboleth basically spoonfed humanity rune magic as part of a great experiment that got badly out of hand.

There is of course still Divine Magic and the like.

But yeah, Thassilon tried to integrate other knowledge bases into things. And then First King Xin tried to consolidate his reign via immortality and a very potent artifact.

And got killed by his apprentices, the Runelords.

And then things got bad in Thassilon.

As in Thassilon is the root of the defining seven deadly sins for Golarion.

[frank crystal]

Oh fuck

[fossil dome]

Ah, right

Was gonna say, ain't the the RLs

[silver geyser]

And there's extremely dangerous things that happen like "We can filter sins from the human soul and turn them into soldiers" and "So we figured out time travel" and "We decided to unleash a Qlippoth Lord into reality"

[frank crystal]

Those all seem like very bad ideas

[silver geyser]

Incredibly so.

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah, golarion has the seven sins because Xin came up with seven "virtues of rule" and his apprentices went "lol, thats lame, you suck" and twisted them into the sins they represented

https://i.imgur.com/vsIw4bt.png

[silver geyser]

The Runelords were awful, awful people.

[frank crystal]

Oh huh they’re tied into the different magic schools too

[silver geyser]

Yep.

Before schools got changed

Thassilon was directly responsible for the modern understanding of schools of magic.

[heavy fulcrum]

the only one who isnt completely awful anymore is Sorshen because she's actually decided she shouldnt be so awful anymore (especially after the others who re-emerged got pasted)

[silver geyser]

And pasted hard

[heavy fulcrum]

"hmm, seems like a bad time"

[silver geyser]

But also to demonstrate just how bad a time the Runelords were

[frank crystal]

Wait are some of the runelords still alive?

[silver geyser]

Two

Sorshen, Runelady of Lust

And Belimmarus, Runelady of Envy.

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah, a bunch of them got stasis'd and re-emerged as part of adventure paths

and all except those two got killed because they were supervillains

[silver geyser]

One of the hardest PFS adventures is squaring off against the Runelord of Sloth.

[frank crystal]

Ah

[heavy fulcrum]

theyre some of the most powerful characters ever included as antagonists that arent gods or something similar

[silver geyser]

To further introduce how dangerous the Runelords were

[heavy fulcrum]

Sorshen's last official statline had her with 30 character levels

[frank crystal]

[silver geyser]

Tar-Baphon, the Whispering Tyrant himself.

Based his knowledge of necromancy off of Thassilon

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah

[frank crystal]

[heavy fulcrum]

and he only has 20 character levels

but he also has a shitload of insane mythic stuff

like "can raise basically any undead for free as a single action with no costs" and "can control an unlimited number of undead"

[fossil dome]

[silver geyser]

One of the AP antagonists tries to get immortality using the same method Sorshen did at one point.

And gets dangerously close to doing so.

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah, TB was CR 26/MR 10 when he showed up

Animate Touch (Su) As a standard action, the Whispering Tyrant can touch a dead creature and animate it as a skeleton or zombie, as if using animate dead. He can expend one use of mythic power when using this ability to animate the body as a different type of undead, as if using greater create undead. The Whispering Tyrant treats his total Hit Dice as his caster level for these effects. Undead created in this way are automatically under his control. The Whispering Tyrant does not need to expend any material components when using this ability. This ability replaces the creeping paralysis mythic lich ability.
Perfect Necromancer (Ex) The Whispering Tyrant can prepare spells from his opposition schools without needing to expend an additional spell slot. He always succeeds at concentration checks to cast spells. He can have any number of undead under his control, and he is not limited by the total Hit Dice of those undead. This ability replaces the enhanced spellcasting mythic lich ability.

[silver geyser]

Aroden himself considered the world getting a fraction of the knowledge that Thassilon had so bad that he directly intervened to stop it

He's hardly a paragon of moral virtue himself.

[heavy fulcrum]

not to mention having a few million GP of magic items, including multiple artifacts, a full range of mythic spells, the mythic lich abilities, etc

[silver geyser]

The only other Caster in Sorshen's weight class is Baba Yaga.

[frank crystal]

Aroden intervening to stop anything on moral grounds is insane tbh

[heavy fulcrum]

for an idea of how powerful TB is, he casts 1st level spells as if they were cantrips

[frank crystal]

What about Jatembe?

[silver geyser]

He is not as strong as Sorshen.

[heavy fulcrum]

jatembe's is only CR 24/MR 6

[silver geyser]

But yeah.

New Thassilon existing is a terrifying prospect.

[echo briar]

I mean, baba yaga considers him an equal, and has too much pride to do so if he isn’t at her level

[fossil dome]

Oh, yeah SF2's getting that, innit?

[silver geyser]

Oh no, SF has worse.

They have the Azlanti Empire.

[echo briar]

So him only being CR 24 seems like statblock fuckery than an actual lore thing

[heavy fulcrum]

SF has the part of Azlanti that went to space back in the day and then got stuck when Azlanti got exploded

[frank crystal]

(Not to be confused with the Azlanti empire)

[silver geyser]

Oh yeah!

That reminds me of the delegate from Eox to Thassilon you meet in one of the 1e APs lol.

[heavy fulcrum]

and have just been developing and expanding and colonzing space ever since

[frank crystal]

Wait when did the Thassilon empire fall?

[heavy fulcrum]

-5293 AR

[silver geyser]

During Earthfall, the same time the Azlanti empire fell.

[heavy fulcrum]

about 10k years ago

[silver geyser]

The aboleth at large learned what the Golarion aboleth were doing

And immediately went "FIX THIS SHIT, NOW"

[heavy fulcrum]

and they overcompensated a little

[silver geyser]

And it is only thanks to direct divine intervention that Golarion has any life on it.

[heavy fulcrum]

because it was actually only supposed to fuck up azlanti and not blow up fucking everything

[frank crystal]

Wait I thought the Azlanti empire fell only a few centuries ago?

Which empire did Aroden do his stuff in?

[silver geyser]

Aroden, the Last Azlanti, died then.

[heavy fulcrum]

no, aroden was way way way later

he showed up in 1 AR

[silver geyser]

But he was a survivor of the Azlanti Empire.

[frank crystal]

Ohhhh

[silver geyser]

But yeah, to circle back to the giant point.

[heavy fulcrum]

him and some others survived, he led them to Avistan but eventually went off to adventure in the outer planes and the rest of the world and then in 1 AR he came back to the Inner Sea region and raised the Starstone and became a god

[silver geyser]

Giants are a fundamental part of Thassilonian magic, which means they're a fundamental part of golarion's understanding of arcane magic.

[frank crystal]

Ok I was very confused then with the timeline surrounding Aroden

[heavy fulcrum]

(and yes, he lived >5000 years as a mortal, people just do that sometimes)

[fossil dome]

Aroden really do be the PF Big E, huh

[heavy fulcrum]

like even Geb was ~1800 when he died and became a ghost

[silver geyser]

Yes

[heavy fulcrum]

Nex is around 6000, Jatembe is over 8000, etc

and jatembe is explicitly mortal, at least they dont mention anything about it in his stats

(nex and geb have never been given full stats, afaik)

[turbid dagger]

I'm not sure if they actually are
Except maybe very distantly
They're from 'another plane'- not sure which but my bet is the Ethereal Plane, with their spooky blue skin and the silk tattoos
We don't have a lot cuz obv Battlecry isn't out yet and I'm pretty sure they are wholly new- no attestation in old books

Oh dang wrong reply sorry emily

[turbid dagger]

Meant to be a response to this

[silver geyser]

You know what they do remind me of?

The Mercane.

"Rumors and legends abound as to the origins of the mercanes and their reasons for seeking out and buying magical items. Their home plane is unknown, and they have wandered between the worlds for as long as any can recall. Stories claim the mercanes feed on the magic items they acquire, or even need them in order to reproduce. There are also tales of a war in a far corner of the planes, with the mercanes serving the roles of arms merchants, aggressors, or defenders, depending on who tells the story."

[turbid dagger]

huhhhh

[silver geyser]

Right?!

[heavy fulcrum]

yknow, stealing and rewriting the mercane from D&D would make sense

(Mercane are from Spelljammer originally)

[silver geyser]

Good ole OGL

[frank crystal]

Oh I didn’t see the another plane stuff

[turbid dagger]

Mhm! Is why they haven't been present before
They got dragged into things somehow

[wooden orbit]

Not even Jatembe?

Dang it I just saw the reply

Thinking about possibly making an Automaton that eventually becomes a Hellknight, if I ever play in a campaign where I can be a Hellknight.

Was told to look into the Godsclaw, and Torrent. Which coming from Mythkeeper's video sounded pretty neat. So does the Order of the Scourge.

[turbid dagger]

The main thing Torrent has going for it is that they are actually pretty cool like morally
Their Thing among the orders is that they hunt kidnappers and find missing people, so they are basically the Anti Human Trafficking Order
And also helped in Kintargo's rebellion against Cheliax

[wooden orbit]

Oh the Order of the Pyre sounds inter-...Oh

[wooden orbit]

Wasn’t there also another order in Kintargo?

[turbid dagger]

During Chelaxian reign, the Order Of The Torrent was expelled and replaced by the Order Of The Rack

......Damn I want to play in Hell's Rebels one of these days

[fossil dome]

I want a campaign that lasts more than a week

[wooden orbit]

I’m assuming the AP coming out with the new meta event coming later this year is gonna take place in Isger. Since ||the AP is called Hellbreakers, and there’s a revolutionary group hidden in Saringallow called the Hellbreaker’s League||

[turbid dagger]

I've recently become infatuated with a class I never expected too
Tempest Oracle is sooooo nice
Giving the divine list some of the best damage spells is lovely
And it's curse isn't THAT bad

[rustic cape]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1iigu72/every_single_change_to_the_inventor_in_guns_gears/

Some good stuff here

[wooden orbit]

Any changes to Automaton?

Thinking Isger gonna be the powder keg region where everything kicks off for the Inner Sea War.

[wooden orbit]

Which one is the Tempest Oracle?

[turbid dagger]

Granted Spells:

Curse

Air, Cold, and Lightning are all pretty good focus spells IMO, and Electric Arc as your Cantrip and Thunderstrike as your level 1 is a game changer on a divine spont caster

And then you eventually get CHAIN LIGHTNING

[rustic cape]

Yeah, that's good shit

Pretty modest curse too

[turbid dagger]

Hydraulic Torrent isn't as much of a standout but
It's fireball-level damage in a line, with a push effect
Neat!

[rustic cape]

Thunderstrike is a winner here

[turbid dagger]

If there isn't an enemy that does Electric damage in an encounter you can push to cursebound 4 with essentially no downsides
You don't need to make ranged attacks ever and moving also isn't AS important

[rustic cape]

Picking up electric arc is nice too (if not necessarily hard for an oracle otherwise since innate spells are charisma based)

[turbid dagger]

I'm definitely making one..... as soon as I find a good concept.....

[rustic cape]

Still annoyed there's no storm-based apparition for animist 😩

[trim grotto]

me and my two other forever gm friends have cooked up a party comp for when we find someone to run this game. Necromancer, Liturgist Animist, and Champion

[rustic cape]

I feel like those other two deserve an extremely complicated, fiddly martial :D

[frank crystal]

Alright, massive fight coming up for my players

A mummy lord, cursed king and their entourage

[echo briar]

For my paper mario build, I think exemplar fits best surprisingly

hands of wilding for the jump attacks, titan breaker for the hammer, you can give your hammer thrown, get good jumps at level 2, and it can be str based unlike swashbuckler

[rustic cape]

Seems reasonable

What about fireballs

Or does paper mario not have fireballs

[echo briar]

Thats from an item

So I can just use this https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=3020

[solar storm]

I love those items

[echo briar]

With the threat of the undead being ever present, why don't most cultures cremate the dead?

You can't make a zombie out of an ash pile

[rustic cape]

Doylist explanation: Because then there would be fewer corpses for necromancers to raise to cause problems for the PCs with

[echo briar]

And I can't find any ash undead

[rustic cape]

But let's see if we can fashion a Watsonian explanation: routine cremation, perhaps, trades one risk for another?

Perhaps increasing the danger of incorporeal undead appearing?

It's a case of picking one's poison

Malicious necromancers, or random wraiths?

Presumably cultures that do lots of cremation do have stronger safeguards against that kind of thing, but it's hard to make the switch

If you don't know the correct practices

And necromancers are a people problem, ultimately

[silver geyser]

The incorporeal undead is the real answer.

They're a lot harder to handle.

In places like Ustalav where negative energy will act upon any remains, it's better to leave something with a body.

[rustic cape]

A zombie is a trivial problem compared to a wraith

And if you've got some jerk raising them by the dozens to do domestic terrorism with, your actual problem is with domestic terrorism, not with the undead

[silver geyser]

Death rites are important for accidental undead more than purposeful.

[solar storm]

That’d be my take yeah

[surreal basin]

I do actually have a country that had a history with necromancers in my setting and they do burn bodies

For the reason of undead denial

They also make super trapped tombs for the honored dead

[frank crystal]

I assume those tombs are occasionally broken into and robbed?

[echo briar]

that's why you use decoy tombs

All the necromancers get caught in highly guarded tombs that don't actually have any dead in them

[rustic cape]

Instead you fill them with Animate Objects

Fucking hardness

[sinful gyro]

IIRC the Book of the Dead goes into golarion cultures and death rituals

And why people don't just burn everything

[clever cobalt]

It does

it's also from the perspective of Geb though

so keep that in mind

[sinful gyro]

For sure

[wooden orbit]

https://youtu.be/CRnqYO-I8_c

[clever cobalt]

Have we gotten a PG yet?

[wooden orbit]

Nope

This isn't even releasing til April apparently, so they released this quite a bit early.

I'm still waiting for more news on the mythic AP.

https://paizo.com/products/btq098ek?Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-216-The-Acropolis-Pyre I need more on this

[clever cobalt]

Is that a Kholo character

[wooden orbit]

We going to Iblydos for this three part AP

And Acropolis Pyre releases in July.

[clever cobalt]

Oh I know

I'm just wondering if that character on the cover is a Kholo

[wooden orbit]

I think so!

[clever cobalt]

Kholo in Ibyldos let's go

[clever cobalt]

I reiterate that we need a Kholo iconic

For no reason other than I Love Hyenas

[wooden orbit]

Gonna be super tempted to make a Minotaur for this ap

[surreal basin]

I’ve been reading the animist subclasses and honestly alongside liturgist, medium is pretty good

Like imo equally so

[solar storm]

Medium is dope

I’m playing one now

[frank crystal]

What do they do?

[upbeat ridge]

how strong is exemplar?

[frank crystal]

Quite

[surreal basin]

They get two primary apparitions at once basically

[frank crystal]

Oh neat

[rustic cape]

It's fine, but the big value of that would be not having to use Circle of Spirits to switch apparitions to use another Vessel Spell

And that is, ironically, much more valuable to the liturgist with their sustain shenanigans

[echo briar]

at later levels yes

from levels 1-8, they aren't great

[clever cobalt]

Pretty

[sinful rune]

I LOPVE FINDING PATHS

[upbeat ridge]

i wish i could find paths...

[upbeat ridge]

been thinking about a paladin fa witch that has their paladin and witch powers from the two sides of nethys

liberator for the good side and the resentment for the evil side

idk what familair though

and is there anything in paladin that requires your diety's favored weapon? staff isnt amazing even with a d6 and d10 two handed

i guess its hidden "trait" is that you could make a spell stave out of one but then you cant have property runes on it

[novel merlin]

Wouldn't an arcane witch make more sense for nethys?

[upbeat ridge]

yeah but i felt like the resentment was more fitting for the evil side of nethys specifically

and nethys still covers all magic

[novel merlin]

Nethys's evil side isn't so much evil as it is just destruction. Like he just represents all the uses of magic, and some of those involve blowing stuff up.

[upbeat ridge]

yeah

i felt that the resentment fit that best

[novel merlin]

Paradox of opposites could be interesting

[solar storm]

I love it when a plan comes together

(nat 20 Disintegrate)

[surreal basin]

Oh hey

Just started red mantis?

[solar storm]

It's been going on for a bit but we couldn't meet for a few weeks

[surreal basin]

I seeeeer

I’m in the same situation actually lol

[solar storm]

We're getting close to the end of this part so I'm free firing because I have at least 12 actions of Bossfight Spells in the tank

[surreal basin]

||we left off literally right before we were about to assassinate ordulf||

Almost certainly fine for u to read cyan

[solar storm]

Yeah we're in a similar spot

[surreal basin]

I figured based on the enemy lol

[echo briar]

I’m further ahead, and I love how it is very clear that the moment the adventure ends, we are killing each other for political power

[surreal basin]

Lmaooo

My character is a dick hard religious zealot

Doesn’t care about anything but being the blade of the great mantis

[solar storm]

Generally same for me but with a side of badly organized knowledge and being a spy

[echo briar]

My character is a literal awakened mantis that is red

[surreal basin]

There’s also one of those in my party lmao

Who thinks that achakek is his dad

[echo briar]

So literally chosen by god

[solar storm]

Half-elf wizard here haha

[surreal basin]

yeah I’m a laughing shadow magus

And a ship

..,..

Shisk

[solar storm]

We're actually very normie shaped here

• Half-elf wizard
• Elf Fighter
• Azarketi Champion (with giant mantis mount)
• Human Kineticist

Oh my gosh back to back caster crits

[warped orbit]

Damn

[solar storm]

232 damage in 2 turns

(the second one was just a cantrip not that crazy)

[craggy thunder]

my starfinder character has been two steps from death for I think

three sessions

She is now at 2 hp

after waking up

[surreal basin]

Like you’ve been unconscious for 3 straight sessions?

[craggy thunder]

Oh no, just Fucked Up ™️

[surreal basin]

Ah okay lol

[wooden orbit]

Huh did not know the Red Revolution in Galt was already ended by now

[turbid dagger]

Yeee
I'm playing through the deluxe adventure that ends it right now :3

[wooden orbit]

How is it?

[turbid dagger]

We're not super far, so I can't really say
We're basically doing a big investigation, going around to points of interest trying to glean details about a big masquerade coming up

[kind oracle]

paizo's hiring a designer, but only if you live in Colorado, Indiana, Maryland, Minnesota, Oregon, or Washington State

[turbid dagger]

Get your ass onto a greyhound bus, quick

[trail nova]

... huh, that's kind of a random list

Washington and Oregon makes sense, but the rest are all over

Wonder what legal quirk they're looking for.

Since I'm pretty sure Pazio only has an office in Washington state

[echo briar]

Union regulations?

[limber comet]

Moving to Maryland

[surreal sapphire]

I'd avoid getting on a greyhound bus these days, shit's bad now

[crystal walrus]

can you link me this please

[heavy fulcrum]

https://paizo.bamboohr.com/careers/33

[crystal walrus]

Thank you!!

[frank crystal]

For martials with focus spells, is the DC their class DC?

[stuck bane]

Looking over champion briefly, it looks like it basically is. There’s a note under devotion spells that they count as divine spells cast with charisma, and all the features that are class dc proficiency upgrades also call out spell attack and casting dc as having their proficiency increased

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[stuck bane]

I forget if class dcs have key ability score factored in or if they’re just a raw proficiency + level number but either way the difference would just be adding charisma instead of any other stat

[vocal ember]

Yeah, the above is correct. The DC is their spell save DC plus the appropriate spellcasting ability modifier (e.g. Charisma for Champions). In all examples I can think of, the proficiency scaling is the same as their class DC, but it's probably gonna be a point or two lower because you're applying a stat that isn't your key ability modifier.

[worthy stump]

yeah, pretty much

[limber comet]

I got a nat 20 on fracture mountains during today's session

Absolutely fucking insane

48 damage on a crit, and I one-shotted a lethal encounter

I feel high on adrenaline

When exemplar hits, it hits

[steel blade]

i rolled 3 nat 1s in my session today luckily i had a hero point to reroll each one

also we're kind of cooked, playing Prey for Death and we ||attacked Sister Maeri on top of the hospice, then proceeded to get attacked by 8 other red mantis assassins around the rooftop; there's 4 of us, a fighter, rogue, oracle, and wizard||

[frank crystal]

So question because I’m very confused, how do ghost characters work with unarmed melee attacks?

Because from what I can see, the implication is that they just, can’t strike corporeal creatures

[warped orbit]

strictly speaking, they can't if it's Str based yes

if it's finesse, they can

[frank crystal]

Ohhh

That’s

Strange

[warped orbit]

it's part of how the incorporeal trait works

[frank crystal]

Ok

[warped orbit]

though it's always been a bit murky if it's really meant to apply to attacks as directly

[frank crystal]

Ok so I think I’m just gonna ask my player if they’re fine with doing that or if they want a workaround of some kind

Because yah those rules are unclear and if true, heavily limit the monsters I can use vs her character

Like I’m not keen on making the party fight exclusively wraiths for a while

[warped orbit]

if you have someone wanting to play with the Ghost archetype, it's probably fine to just let their attacks work normally

[frank crystal]

Yah that’s what I’m thinking

[warped orbit]

Ghost is... weird

because being incorporeal is mostly a lot of disadvantages for players

[frank crystal]

Yah especially when like, the ghost aspect isn’t even super important to their build

They’re an unarmed magus

The main benefit they get from ghost is the ability to ignore terrain

[warped orbit]

because you don't get most of the actually useful benefits

[frank crystal]

Ok seems like they’re going with raw and are just gonna take ghostly grasp

The character is starting at 9th due to her being a temporary replacement to her previous character

[echo briar]

Baba Yaga considers old man Jatembe to be her only equal. Of the currently alive non divine beings, is this accurate?

[clever cobalt]

Somewhat yeah

[turbid dagger]

According to the PF wiki, Hao Jin is probably up there
Baba Yaga is Witch 20 Archmage 10
Old-Mage Jatembe is Wizard 20 Archmage 6
Hao Jin is Sorceror 20 Archmage 9

But maybe Hao Jin isn't as Wily
Jatembe is very Baba Yaga esque in that he likes being tricky
Stealing the head of Ydersius, taking his secrets, then keeping it with him so others can't use them for evil

[clever cobalt]

Yeah Baba Yaga is said to respect wily-ness

[rustic cape]

I get the impression the mix of power, cleverness, and oddly enough, being principled

[echo briar]

Could that also come from the context that those stat blocks where written?

Like if one of them was designed to be fought in an AP, they might make the statblook stronger/weaker to make a better fight, even if its not the most lore accurate

or as the years went on, there might have been power creap where beings of the same canonical power get higher and higher statblocks to make them seem more like a threat

[turbid dagger]

I'm not sure if any of these characters have ever been canonically fought by someone
I know that like, two of them weren't even around until 2e APs

[surreal basin]

Geb the guy is also up there

IMO

And no they’ve never been fought in combats

[rustic cape]

This is the cross-section of casters who generally think godhood would be a downgrade

[clever cobalt]

Baba Yaga doesn't want people praying and worshipping her

[turbid dagger]

Geb The Guy and Nex The Guy are up there yeah

[clever cobalt]

They aren't statted though

So its hard to say

But yeah I think they're up there as well

[surreal basin]

He was presumably stronger than Arazni was when she was queen

https://aonprd.com/MythicMonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Arazni

And she’s CR 26 mythic rank 8

[surreal basin]

Unrelated

Man I’m so hype to run season of ghosts

The more I read of the books the better it gets

[worthy stump]

i've heard real good things about it myself. one of my friends is running it and says it's one of his favorite APs. seems like it really goes places, too, given how often people say to avoid any spoilers for it, haha

[wooden orbit]

https://tenor.com/view/open-the-door-kick-down-gif-21474058

[surreal basin]

:3

[wooden orbit]

That's one of the APs I really wanna play

[surreal basin]

[limber comet]

This is gonna come back to bite me in the ass, the dice karma is shifting against me as we speak

But fuck, was it cool

[limber comet]

Really hoping that's the meta plot conflict of 2026

Cuz in 2024 it was Gorum dying, in 2025, it's Andoran and Cheliax fighting, so

Queer wizard beef for 2026?

[rapid wagon]

yall see humble bundle for all the pathfinder/starfinder comics?

https://www.humblebundle.com/books/pathfinder-starfinder-comics-dynamite-books?hmb_source=&hmb_medium=product_tile&hmb_campaign=mosaic_section_1_layout_index_2_layout_type_threes_tile_index_3_c_pathfinderstarfindercomicsdynamite_bookbundle

[limber comet]

Runescars and Spiral of Bones are pretty decent ngl

[echo briar]

Every AP has a set of "cannon" iconics that are depicted completing the AP. What set of iconics will have the hardest time?

[clever cobalt]

Exemplar, Gunslinger, Inventor

[echo briar]

SoG has 3 "casters" (witch, oracle, kineticist) and the only martial is the monk

If SoG wasn't one of the easiest APs combat wise, that would be a very squishy party

Also, every weapon in the AP will go to waste, as I don't even think any of them have the monk trait

[solar storm]

I always thought it was funny how the sorcerer is in punks in a powderkeg

[echo briar]

SoT is also somewhat squishy with champ, investigator, witch and druid, but investigator and druid can off tank way better than the SoG "casters" and the champ is the best tank in the game

[solar storm]

That’s gonna be rough without eliding surgetime

[trail nova]

What's SoG stand for?

[clever cobalt]

Season of Ghosts

[echo briar]

Season of Ghosts

[trail nova]

Ah, thanks! I'm not up to date with the 2e APs

[crystal walrus]

SoGgy

[vital kiln]

Question: Is there a way to make a Gandalf-esque "sword and staff" magus viable?

So far I'm thinking maybe Twisted Tree, but I hear that Laughing Shadow can also work kinda okayish

[light gyro]

laughing shadow is probably the better option, though i believe you need a free hand for most of their abilities. you may as well invest a staff anyway as a caster.

[surreal basin]

There’s a fan which does but otherwise

[novel merlin]

The staff would unfortunately take up your free hand

Dual wielding as magus is just pretty close to unsupported

Gandalf is more of a wizard with fighter archetype or something than a magus

[vital kiln]

Ugh

[surreal basin]

There also just wouldn’t be any benefit to it with the way their class features would

*work

[vital kiln]

I'd say it's lame but it makes some degree of sense at least, I doubt most anyone wants to do a dual wielding magus with how action economy hungry they are

Yeah spellstriking alone takes like two actions

...Twisting Tree does seem like the best option, honestly

Getting Agile on a staff seems like it best supports actually smacking shit with your stave

[novel merlin]

You can also fuse a staff in to your weapon

[vital kiln]

Aye

Plus Spinning Staff seems not terrible

You can't combine Double Slice and Spellstrike, right?

[novel merlin]

Nope

Two separate actions

[vital kiln]

Yeah, figured

[wooden orbit]

How's the Magus subclass from Tian Xia with the cloth weapon?

[vital kiln]

Seems alright from a cursory glance

Kinda gimmicky but that doesn't preclude it from being good

Looks really focused on disarming and tripping

[novel merlin]

It's pretty good for a debuffing magus

[warped orbit]

it's good for focusing a bit more on maneuvers

[vital kiln]

Is a Kalis good enough to warrant taking Weapon Proficiency for?

On either a magus or a drifter gunslinger

[surreal basin]

Weapon training is almost never a worthwhile way to get a weapon because it only ever makes you xpert

[rustic cape]

In theory there are cases where expert-proficiency classes do okay in a punch up but slightly improving that potential by getting a better weapon is not usually going to be worth a general feat

[vital kiln]

Eh, yeah, what I figured

God I wish advanced weapons weren't in such a shit state of affairs

Better than regular weapons by and large stat wise but it's never worth investing in them

[craggy thunder]

MOUNTED! AND LOADED!

https://tenor.com/view/tachanka-rainbow-six-siege-lmg-gun-gif-21497597

[frank crystal]

This is basically my homebrew setting

[trim grotto]

ohhh man that book sounds so fun

[fossil dome]

Reign of Winter, my beloved

[trim grotto]

what would... a dragonblood conrasu look like

[wooden orbit]

[vital kiln]

Regular conrasu, but each of its additional frozen arms have formed into the shape of serpentine dragons

What would a dhampir conrasu look like

[wooden orbit]

Nightmare fuel

I kinda wanna play Hell's Rebels in PF2E. Feel like that AP would be cathartic in this year.

[trim grotto]

Oh man I'd love to play that one eventually

[echo briar]

Why does the orca animal form have a 20ft land speed?

How is beached whale the same speed as a dwarf

[frank crystal]

I assume because of how big it is it’s to mechanize it flopping around

Like yah it barely moves, but it’s huge so in effect it moves a lot more

[echo briar]

It is medium

like all other animal forms

[heavy fulcrum]

where are you seeing the 20 ft speed? animal form just says Orca swim Speed 35 feet; Melee [one-action] jaws, Damage 2d8 piercing; can hold your breath for the duration of the transformation.

[echo briar]

Where did I see it? I remember seeing it, but when I check back its not there

[heavy fulcrum]

you might have mixed it up with Seal, which does have a 20 ft speed

Seal Speed 20 feet, swim Speed 30 feet; Melee [one-action] jaws (grapple), Damage 2d6 piercing; can hold your breath for the duration of the transformation.

[warped orbit]

Seal just really good at galumphing

[vital kiln]

https://tenor.com/view/seal-hop-seal-approaching-seal-seal-dance-seal-jump-gif-9678506940158361702

Do you lot reckon that reflavoring Gouging Claw as slicing at someone with a great big chainsword would work?

[warped orbit]

yeah sure

[turbid dagger]

Mhm, its very easy to reflavor
For my magus it's just making the sword vibrate so it cuts better, MGR style

[warped orbit]

on my Eldritch Archer Investigator, I usually flavored it as transmuting the projectile to becoming more serrated or extra acceleration

[frank crystal]

oh then nevermind

why are orcas so small?

[vital kiln]

They're not Small, they're Medium, didn't you read what he wrote?

hyuckhyuckhyuckhyuckhyuckhyuck

[rustic cape]

[echo briar]

Are there any canon temperate rainforests?

[vital kiln]

None that I'm aware of, but I'd imagine that the northern continents are covered in them

Any of the Starfinder 2e weapons worth using on a drifter?

[novel merlin]

Starfinder weapons aren't particularly balanced for pathfinder

[vital kiln]

Aren't they supposed to be compatible?

[novel merlin]

Compatible mechanically but not necessarily balanced

[vital kiln]

True

[novel merlin]

Basically like your GM could allow them and the game wouldn't break but there's no guarantee that the outcome would be fun or fair compared to the rest of your party.

The numbers are vaguely similar and the mechanical core is the same so it works but it's super gm discretion

[limber comet]

Orcas are weird and should have a land speed, albeit much slower than 20 ft lol

Maybe like. 5 or 10

They're known to beach themselves to hunt so

[eager mountain]

https://bsky.app/profile/paizo.com/post/3lhwwew4w4l2g

Paizo (@paizo.com)

Join us on our Road to the Stars as the Starfinder Team takes us on a tour of our upcoming Starfinder Second Edition rulebooks and adventures! Watch the Live Stream tomorrow, February 12th, at 4PM PST!

Bluesky · Feb 12, 2025, 12:33 AM

[wooden orbit]

Read February as Friday for a second and got very confused.

[fossil dome]

What in the Jasper Irinka is that?

[vital kiln]

Potentially a dumb question

Am I better off with a dueling pistol or a jezail as a drifter gunslinger?

[novel merlin]

Dueling pistol

[vital kiln]

Given my planned attack pattern will be "Melee -> Ranged -> Cast Shield", I figure a slightly better damage die might be worth more ultimately than Fatal? Since I doubt I'll be popping crits much after that MAP.

[surreal basin]

Can’t fire the Jezail if other hand is full

you can fire it with a single hand as long as the other hand isn’t holding a weapon, shield, or anything else you would need to move and position, to ensure the weapon doesn’t slip out from under your arm.

From fatal aim

[novel merlin]

Wouldn't it make more sense to use the ranged attack first for the better crit chance, then reload with the melee?

[vital kiln]

...lame

[vital kiln]

MAP means I'd be attacking with +1 to hit though, and at that point why even bother attacking with the sword at all beyond just using it to get a freeish reload?

[novel merlin]

Because you get a free reload and do more damage with the gun that the sword because of your higher accuracy

The whole point of drifter is the free reload

[vital kiln]

Mmm

Be nice if drifter could actually sword and pistol effectively and be more than just "Pistolero but more gimmicky"

[novel merlin]

The sword is still effective, you just use it for a second attack

If you want good melee then you can use a combination weapon which gets your gun proficiency on the melee too

Pistolero is very different because it's more charisma based and has no melee

[vital kiln]

Probably have to do that

Sorry

[novel merlin]

If you want to melee primary and gun secondary in general then gunslinger isn't exactly the ideal class

Unless you just use stab and blast exclusively I guess

[vital kiln]

What would my best bet be if not drifter?

Fighter I assume?

[novel merlin]

Or like a ranger or rogue since they get running reload

[vital kiln]

Hm

Ranger's probably worth looking into

Question is, how would I actually get proficiency in guns?

...well, gunslinger archetype, that's how lmao

Sorry for getting pissy

[echo briar]

Guns are just normal weapons. You don’t need special proficiency

[vital kiln]

...do you not?

I thought guns required specific proficiencies to use

[novel merlin]

Guns are just uncommon martial weapons

[vital kiln]

Hm

So they are

Idk why I thought they needed special proficiency to use

...wait no I know exactly why, I mixed it up with 5e's gun rules

Yeah honestly a fighter seems like the better route for a sword and pistol build that actually makes proper use of both the sword and the pistol

[fossil dome]

You're thinking Star guns

[vital kiln]

Star guns?

[fossil dome]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2361

Star Guns

[vital kiln]

Aaaaaaaaaaaah

Something to look for far later on I suppose

...yeah it's looking like slide pistol fighter will serve me better

[fossil dome]

Slide pistol neat, ye

[vital kiln]

Still the issue of reloading though

Not having Slinger's Reload will sting

[fossil dome]

Yeah

I mean, depends on engagement length

[vital kiln]

True

...granted, I can just take a turn or two to take cover and reload my shit like a true gunfighter

Mostly going to be annoying to have to take two turns to completely reload

Ah well

[trim grotto]

is there a way to build around going really really fast

[novel merlin]

I mean you can just play a stoked flame monk but it doesn't have much payoff besides just being good at repositioning

[frank crystal]

My exemplar player is picking up animist dedication

[trim grotto]

[frank crystal]

He’s starting to hear “the spirits” after a near death experience

Aka “getting nearly killed by an undead Minotaur, getting healed up, and then almost killed by an undead Minotaur again”

[rustic cape]

Is he gonna aim for Grudge Strike long term?

[frank crystal]

I don’t know actually

I think he just took it because the party has been struggling with out of combat healing for a while

But yah I’ll probably direct him to it

[rustic cape]

... wait can animist dedication get vessel spells?

It's a level 8 animist feat so it'd be a late pickup if your campaign goes that far

But it's a nice reward for martials who decide to go into it

[frank crystal]

Oh shit I didn’t know that

[trim grotto]

i wish there was a sound kineticist that would kick ass

[clever cobalt]

that could be neat yeah

Sonic and Lightning

and/or blugeoning

[surreal basin]

I wonder if they’ll ever explore different elements

[echo briar]

They should make starfinder elements

one element for each element on the periodic table. I want to make a boron kineticist

[frank crystal]

Uranium kineticist

https://tenor.com/view/harley-quinn-cancer-laser-ray-cancer-ray-gif-7121785040292997678

[clever cobalt]

I can definitely see a Radiation Kineticist being a thing tbh

[surreal basin]

Gotta figure out an archetype for my kineticist who did legend of Korra style sports

Current thought is acrobat

[wary yoke]

Someone in my group is making a class archetype for kineticist based around stars, radiation is one of the elements he just finished

Gravity and Radiation are the two it's focused on

[trim grotto]

does clawdancer work well on swashbuckler

[vital kiln]

There much of a difference between a d6 and a d8 weapon?

[steel blade]

besides max damage, d6 usually has an extra trait iirc

[novel merlin]

Swashbuckler tends to be pretty basic in just getting panache and landing finishers so idk if all the extra abilities from claw dancer are all that useful since finishes block you from attacking more.

[vital kiln]

Yeah usually Deadly or something

[novel merlin]

You mostly want like extra non-attack 3rd actions

[surreal basin]

I have made a ruling

on kineticist

for my group

So yknow how kineticist is basically incompatible wth like

90% of the system

due to not making normal strikes or using spells

I have decided for my group that for the time being to allow strikes as sub actions to be substituted with one action blasts

[vital kiln]

Seems sensible

And a good idea tbh

[trim grotto]

weapon infusion elemental blasts should count as weapon strikes

[turbid dagger]

Offers some so-so starting benefits early on but I can see it getting extremely good later
d8 finesse unarmed attack? Nice
Wheeling Grab letting you tumble through then Grapple with Derring Do? Unbelievably good for acrobat swash

The main disadvantage is that a lot of its benefits are giving you special metastrikes, which is anti-synergistic with swashbuckler wanting to do Finishers

[trim grotto]

that makes sense

im trying to build a mobile swashbuckler just because i like the idea of a leaping acrobatic character

[turbid dagger]

Fortunately, with tumble behind you should pretty much always be Tumbling Through, so thats easy to pull off
Its a stride, its panache generation, its a Feint

I'm playing an Aldori Dueling Sword swash right now and its lovely, so I imagine talon stance swash performs similarly

[rustic cape]

I think this is good yeah

[surreal basin]

:3

im so smart

[rustic cape]

There's precious little reason not to do it

(And I think the fact that they couldn't just slot it in with a tag goes to how PF2e needs a metastrike tag desperately)

[eager mountain]

ppppppssstttt

"Greetings, friends! If you’re watching this, it’s because I’ve experienced an unexpected shutdown—in organic terms, I’m dead."

The discovery of their friend’s unexpected murder turns these strangers into a crew of unlikely investigators. To find the killer, they’ll need to outrun murderous robots, outwit clever foes, and analyze perplexing clues—all while wondering if they’re hunting the murderer, or if the murderer is hunting them! The streets of Striving can be an unforgiving place, and the investigators will need all their skills, resources—and no small amount of luck—to come out ahead, solve the murder, find the killer’s hideout, and bring them to justice!```

Murder in Metal City features:

Six new pregenerated characters with player handouts, one for each class from the Starfinder Player Core.
A double-sided tactical Starfinder Flip-Mat featuring key locations from the adventure.
Articles about the machine planet Aballon and the megaplex city of Striving.
One new playable alien ancestry: khizars, the plant-like protectors of Aballon’s jungle-filled Ice Wells.
An article detailing the tech faiths of the Starfinder universe, from deities like Triune and Lambatuin to the unique philosophies of the robotic anacites.
Multiple pages of creature stat blocks and NPC descriptions for the combat and roleplaying encounters in the adventure.```

[ashen knot]

a friend made a kobold supplement!

https://www.pathfinderinfinite.com/product/512189/A-Clatter-of-Kobolds-5-Unusual-Kobold-Tribes

[eager mountain]

https://www.twitch.tv/officialpaizo

[solar storm]

?

Is something releasing?

[surreal basin]

They’re doing a starfinder stream

[eager mountain]

turns out this ISNT a beginner box

[silver geyser]

Interesting

[trim grotto]

whats a good spellcaster for damage/big aoe attacks

i wanna blow shit up

if someone says animist again

[silver geyser]

Kineticist.

[trim grotto]

okay thats fair but not technically spells

[silver geyser]

But really, the Arcane spell list has your back.

Primal is in second.

[warped orbit]

Sorcerer

but also yes, Kineticist and Animist are probably actually your best bet

Psychic can also kinda do it, but relies heavily on amp cantrips, meaning you need a subclass with an AoE for that

[trim grotto]

wait is animist actually good at it?

[warped orbit]

the Mountain vessel spell is pretty good for damage

and a few others too

also several apparitions have good blasting spells in their repertoire

[solar storm]

Psychic (Oscwave) and Sorcerer

Sorcerer is better for AoE though

[trim grotto]

btw do you mean steward of stone and fire?

[warped orbit]

yeah

[trim grotto]

thanks

[warped orbit]

Sorc also has flat bonus damage, and some good blasty focus spells as well

[trim grotto]

animist is cool as hell then this class can just literally do anything

[trim grotto]

i'll check out sorc too

[warped orbit]

Elemental Sorcerer is fairly straightforward for blasting

[clever cobalt]

damn missed the stream

wht did i miss?

[eager mountain]

one moment and ill tell you

( high level creature on the cover of Galaxy guide

Phantasmal fleet is back

being kinda like Phantasmal killer, but instead you summon a fleet of ships to orbitally bombard a person for mental damage

the target also has to run for cover

SkitterGM

Jhinsuls

gm guide , gonna have alot of stuff in it with monster creation rules and stuff

uhhhh Alien Core comes after

oh and Cinematic ship rules while theyu still work on the tactical ones

new deluxe adventure box, takes place at level 1

ISNT a beginner box

and has pregen characters that arent the iconics and are thier own characters

also has Khisars

getting the first ever starfinder novel.

main character is an android that wakes up a day after the gap.

but also has a second timeline of Dae and Chik Chik becoming starfinders

also the infinity deck while will be mentioned int he story aswell

atleast can be used for 4 different card games, and also a gambling game

which you can use as a prop

or an actual game

beyond that they showed this art of a yet un named adventure

[clever cobalt]

Zo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[eager mountain]

ye

an adventure involving zo!

oh yeah also ACTUAL HACKING rules

dynamic hacking rules will be in gm core

[fossil dome]

Ok, I'm honestly hyped

[clever cobalt]

Do we have an ETA yet

[eager mountain]

for which thing ?

[fossil dome]

I love how the setting book is coming before the core rules

[eager mountain]

becuase the galaxy guide is part of the playtest

the playercore comes out at gen con

[fossil dome]

Ah, I see

[wary yoke]

I'm doing prep for the climaxe of my 1E campaign, making the most annoying little shit enemy bard ever

Quickling

Quickling speed metal bard

Oh look, he's just high enough level to be able to cast freedom of movement

[vital kiln]

Making a character for a Tyrant's Grasp game, trying to think of some NPCs that might exist in Roslar's Cradle for him to have connections to

Any ideers?

[wary yoke]

Wait, ahahaha

He has enough feats in the tank for me to give him both some Dirty Trick feats and Spring-Heeled Style

[vital kiln]

Ooooooooooo dewit

That sounds fun

[wary yoke]

Oh god, he can focus on sickening people to make them vulnerable to his boss's hexes

[surreal basin]

so is the phalanx piercer any good?

the reload 1 is pretty rough but im a hobgobin precision ranger

[surreal basin]

.......... ive tried really hard and

its just worse

[turbid dagger]

To be real my answer is probably no
You can make builds out of it, some of them are perfectly workable, but you're working real hard to mitigate the weapons weaknesses when you could just be using a harmona gun

[surreal basin]

than a composite longbow

or yeah a gun

[turbid dagger]

To get the best use out of it I'd probably roll Starshot Exemplar, cuz they get the funny reload epithet

[vital kiln]

Is there like

Any purpose in the revenant background

Like as far as I can tell it's just

"Here's two free lore skills. Also here's a massive permanent debuff that WILL negatively impact the way you play the game."

[echo briar]

That’s not inherently a downside

[vital kiln]

...wait

Positive damage isn't magical healing, is it?

[echo briar]

As long as there is a way to heal yourself you should be fine

[echo briar]

Not inherently

Soothe for example works, but heal will harm you.

Then again, harm will heal you

[vital kiln]

Hm

How common are negative damage sources?

[echo briar]

But if for example you are an unholy champion, then your focus spell turns from purely a damage spell into a flexible damage or self healing spell

[echo briar]

Very common with undead

Like, it’s not busted. You do lose many sources of healing, and if your party has positive healing it can spread out your healing resources, but it does make you immune to a somewhat common damage type, weak to a very infrequent damage type, and turns some potent damage tools into flexible damage or healing tools.

[turbid dagger]

Vitality damage amongst enemies is notably nearly nonexistent

[echo briar]

I’m believe 3 1 action max level harms is the highest average damage you can do in a round, so having the ability to use them when you don’t have a reason to spend 3 max level spells in a single turn is very useful

[vital kiln]

Hm

I see

So it's not as much of a debuff as I thought

[sturdy lagoon]

I mean, it's the same thing you get for playing as a Dhampir or Skeleton, or becoming a Vampire or Ghost. It's not hard to get around it if you coordinate to get the whole party in on it.

[craggy thunder]

I am compiling a bunch of post ww2 and anti-Vietnam War songs for a character playlist in starfinder

of songs she'd theoretically play for a Live Aid type concert to help the victims of a campaign the army she was a part of took part in

Hammer to Fall, All Along the Watchtower, etc

[vital kiln]

Fortunate Son?

[craggy thunder]

A classic, but no

[vital kiln]

Shame

[craggy thunder]

I mean part of it is it's too easy

another part is like

idk I feel weird about putting a song in the playlist about how much being a soldier sucks when the concert would hypothetically be about supporting

The people wronged by those soldiers?

might be reading too much into it but it feels odd

[wary yoke]

I'm not aware of many anti-WWII songs

Or any, actually

[wary yoke]

There are songs about how bad it got, but most of those are after the fact; WWII has a reputation of being "Americas last good war" for a reason.

[solar storm]

There’s no shortage of “being a soldier sucks” songs but those are sort of different from anti war songs

[rustic cape]

There were conscientious objectors and people who opposed WW2 during its duration, but as a position that became less tenable as a result of (a) the Holocaust, and (b) emergent cultural narratives of the type Ninja raised

And if you look at propaganda that was distributed to soldiers during the conflict, there was a lot of concern about the American populace not being on board with the war in Europe specifically

I remember reading a pamphlet written as, like, a FAQ, basically

For soldiers in the European theater

And one of the questions was, "why are we fighting the Germans, aren't they our kind of people?"

And then this was addressed with an explanation of why that was not the case

But the simple inclusion of the question startled me

The idea that the U.S. was universally on board with the fighting was sort of invented after the fact

[wary yoke]

There was also the fact that early on before the US entered the war, isolationists were sort of synonymous with Nazi sympathizers.

[rustic cape]

Yep

[wary yoke]

I keep thinking of Woodie Guthrie's Miss Pavlichenko, lol

[rustic cape]

Prior to the US entrance into WW2, Humphrey Bogart starred in a propaganda film about being a merchant-marine fighting Nazis, because this was something people were fighting about a lot

[craggy thunder]

I mean I will point out

I brought up post WWII songs

and Anti-Vietnam songs

In specific and separately

XD

[frozen hatch]

Is the pathfinder kingmaker humble bundle worth it?

[rustic cape]

Kingmaker inspires some very mixed feelings ime, but some people do love it a lot

[glossy ridge]

https://www.humblebundle.com/books/pathfinder-kingmaker-bundle-from-paizo-inc-books?hmb_source=&hmb_medium=product_tile&hmb_campaign=mosaic_section_1_layout_index_1_layout_type_threes_tile_index_1_c_pathfinderkingmakerbundlefrompaizoinc_bookbundle

thats the bundle for those curious

[frozen hatch]

15 bucks for all the 1e pdfs doesn't seem bad since a single pdf from paizo is more expensive than that. It seems good to me but what do you lot think of the AP?

[echo briar]

$5 for the beginers box is also a great deal

plus $15 for player core, gm core, and two lost omens books

Even if you don't care about kingmaker this is a good deal

[turbid dagger]

.....Selling the CRPG with the adventure path is a little oddly funny but neat

[rustic cape]

Oh yeah the CRPG is pretty good

Not as good as Wrath of the Righteous

[frank crystal]

I don’t really like it but that’s because I don’t really like PF1E tbh

[wooden orbit]

Somebody didn’t take a certain scar ability

[wooden orbit]

Unfortunately we’ll never see Owlcat adapt a 2E AP because apparently they don’t like PF2E

[frank crystal]

He did, unfortunately said undead Minotaur was +2 levels

[wooden orbit]

[frank crystal]

I’m really sad the CRPG PF2E we are getting doesn’t look super good

[surreal basin]

Did they say that?

[wooden orbit]

This is stuff I’ve been routinely told about Owlcat back when they only had Kingmaker and then Wrath

[clever cobalt]

Just got the Order Email for NPC Core and Rival Academies 👀

[surreal basin]

Okay yeah looked it up, you have been routinely lied to

Their only statement on 2e was during an AMA where they said they’re interested but at the time the system was too new and they had other projects

[wooden orbit]

https://tenor.com/view/there's-a-chance-so-you're-telling-me-there's-a-chance-chance-gif-16524723380007420705

[surreal basin]

Not in the next 3 years but eventually Mayhaps!

[wooden orbit]

I could finally see the dream come true of SoT being adapted

[vital kiln]

Y'know what I want from Owlcat

Iron Gods game

[frank crystal]

Which one is that?

[vital kiln]

The one that's focused around the big god-machine AIs

[frank crystal]

That’s a thing?

[vital kiln]

Unity, Hellion, Casandalee

Oh aye, it's an older AP for 1e

[fossil dome]

Ugh, I want an IG2e remaster so bad

[vital kiln]

...I read that as Insect Glaive for whatever reason

I was about to ask why you wanted a remaster of a MonHun weapon

Anyway

I mostly just want a CRPG where you can be a like

Robot or something

[fossil dome]

Android, or Automaton?

[vital kiln]

Both

Maybe options for ROBOT robot automatons rather than warforged but fancier

[wooden orbit]

I want Strength of Thousands, Season of Ghosts, Hell’s Rebels, Blood Lords (maybe Owlcat could improve it like they did Kingmaker) for the 2E APs (and the one 1E AP I’m kinda familiar with at this point outside of the two Owlcat adapted)

Would also love a Starfinder crpg

Speaking of Starfinder, who watched the stream yesterday?

[vital kiln]

I didn't, any big news from it?

[surreal basin]

Uhhhh

Engineer and Technomancer playtest coming soon, Engineer can have a turret and Technomancer can “overclock” spells

There’s a deluxe 64 page level 1 murder mystery adventure coming out

Alien Core officially announced for around the end of this year

[upbeat ridge]

Did we see the statistics on the turret? Curious to see how it differs from inventor

[echo briar]

I would assume less mobile

Maybe not even a minion

[upbeat ridge]

Yeah I’m assuming it stays in place

Maybe even shoots as a reaction like turret drones in lancer

[surreal basin]

Nope!

They just mentioned that it’s a turret

That’s all

[upbeat ridge]

Ok

[surreal basin]

And it sounded like an option, rather than like

The Thing Of The Class

[upbeat ridge]

https://youtu.be/SNgNBsCI4EA?feature=shared

[echo briar]

I feel like lancer drones would be a unique design space

[stuck bane]

Kinda like how necromancer has been shaping up for pathfinder?

(From what I’ve heard of it)

[turbid dagger]

Yeah necro thralls are similar to Lancer drones
In that they're an immobile targetable Thingy with special effects tied to them
The main diff is that outside of a few late abilities, thralls are all the same and the special effects come from you, using the thrall as a targeting point, rather than being something intrinsic to the thrall

[rustic cape]

Something to note re: Owlcat is that all of their games have had some sort of kingdom management/hexcrawl component

So if they did a PF2e AP, it would probably be one where they could fit in something like that

And it would probably be 1-20

[clever cobalt]

Honestly I'd just kill for an Owlcat 2e game

they can have a custom story for all I care

Mana Wastes Kingmaker :v

[turbid dagger]

If I had my way
The Owlcat 2e Game would be Strength Of Thousands
And the funny bad subsystem that the hidden ending is locked behind for some ungodly reason would be academia

It has party members ready to go with the dorm-mate NPCs

Its unlikely due to its caster focus mind but
It'd be soooo good

[clever cobalt]

Gatewalkers Owlcat game :v

[rustic cape]

explode /j

[vital kiln]

What is with games and making engineers The Turret Class

[novel merlin]

Because the turret class is fun and "guy who builds turrets" is logically an engineer

[trail nova]

... sad we don't get cybercortex mechanic.

That was always a fun one.

[vital kiln]

Yeah

Tbh I really hope that they re-add a bunch of the old weapons from 1e

The selection in 2e feels so fucking cramped

[trail nova]

The playtest weapon selection was really anemic, yeah

It felt like everything had to be "gimmic gun 10"

[vital kiln]

Like, yeah, half of them were just upgrades and another 25% were either redundant or worse than other options, but I miss the variety

[trail nova]

Nothing was allowed to be generically solid and simple.

[vital kiln]

The pistol was

Literally has nothing beyond "it's a gun that shoots"

[trail nova]

(At least that's what I recall for the martial stuff)

Was the pistol a simple weapon?

[vital kiln]

Aye

Tbh I miss the big pistols most

I yearn for my hand cannons

Yeah there's the gyrojet pistol but it's just not the same

[surreal basin]

I mean it was a playtest so I imagine we’ll get a fuller selection

[turbid dagger]

What I'm hoping for is a way to reload pistols with a shield in the other hand
Riot Shield Operative actually looks really cool.... so long as you have ammo

[vital kiln]

Same, but I want it so I can engage in sword and pistol gameplay

[novel merlin]

By any chance are you looking for sword and hand cannon robots

Seems to be a reoccurring theme

[vital kiln]

...

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybeeeeeeeeee

[wooden orbit]

We also got THE final Starfinder Society adventure for SF1E. With it being a high lvl adventure that has the potential to permanently remove your society PC from setting??? If I understood them correctly.

[frank crystal]

wait when were these announced?

[fossil dome]

Like, yesterday

Do we have a list of confirmed SF2e classes?

[surreal basin]

The stream yesterday

[frank crystal]

oh cool

also yah starfinder '

that makes a lot more sense

[echo briar]

So mystic, envoy, soldier, solarian, witchwarper, operative will be in the core rulebook

[rustic cape]

I kind of like the idea of starting with one class for each ability score

It's charming

[upbeat ridge]

with the sf2e playtest, wasnt the consensus that operative was pretty stacked?

[echo briar]

It was a combination of every other class being undercooked, and a few feats being way to strong

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Without Hair Trigger it’s like

Pretty good

[echo briar]

Sniper was pretty bad

Until the skeeter rifle was nerfed, that was way better than any sniper

[surreal basin]

Yeah idk why they thought anyone would want pathfinder guns lol

No magazine is silly

[echo briar]

I think unwieldy was the real problem

[surreal basin]

Yeah that was a weird additional rebuff

*debuff

[trail nova]

Yeah. I think Operative is on the strong but reasonable side with a few outliers, it's just that a lot of the playtest was very weird.

The SF martial weapons all being weird gimicks didn't help stuff, since it meant certain playstyles just... didn't have a weapon.

[surreal basin]

yeah i feel like theyre doing gng like

"safe" balance

which mostly just made things feel underwhelming imo

[clever cobalt]

Which is weird cause some of the classes seem interesting conceptually

[echo briar]

https://www.wargamer.com/pathfinder/romance-mechanics

[errant roost]

I'm really enjoying this coming from a site called "wargamer." show me the romance subsystem's tactical layer, cowards

[echo briar]

Maybe I’m just too asexual for this, but the article feels off.

Like it’s focusing way to much on a very small part of a larger mechanic

But that could just be me

[errant roost]

no, I'm with you. this sounds like a weird interpretation of relationship scales for the bit

[turbid dagger]

No Agile d6 melee whatsoever in the play test blew my mf socks off

Well, agile d6 weapons
There are kitty claws

[echo briar]

Also like 1 finesse martial weapon right?

[turbid dagger]

I find that broadly more permissible but still silly
The reason agile d6 is important is because a whole subclass of operative relies on it

[trail nova]

Yeah. It kind of felt like Pazio was either going “we know how to balance regular weapons, no need to include them” or “simple weapons are the generic basic ones, martial weapons have gimmicks” while ignoring how much simple weapons suck.

[warped orbit]

the weapon list was definitely a bit odd

[warped orbit]

I feel like the basic laser rifle is still kinda better than the sniper rifles in most cases

yeah you have a slightly lower die and don't get some extra tags, but not needing to reload every shot is a pretty big upside

especially since something like Hair Trigger is way harder to use with a 1 projectile magazine gun

and Hair Trigger is still super good, even post nerf

[turbid dagger]

Of the selection in the platest, the magnetar rifle was probably the highlight for me

Also: it was funny to see all the one handed non agile melee weapons
Because afaik there is literally no class actually specced in using them

[surreal basin]

Melee soldier

Kinda

At least they dont really benefit from agile lol

[echo briar]

Those need 2 handed weapons IIRC

[frozen hatch]

Plan on starting a new campaign with some friends soon and our group is torn between 2 campaigns: War for the Crown and the 3rd party AP Zeitgiest (longer than a normal AP but does go from levels 1 to 20 by the end.) Which would you recommend we go with as the party's currently tied in votes (well technically the votes are 2 for WftC, 2 for Zeitgeist, and 1 for Shattered Star+Return of the Runelords immediately after.)

For those who don't know what Zeitgiest is, here is the description I found for it online as well as a shorter description someone else gave about it:

Steam and soot darken the skies above the city of Flint, and winds sweeping across its majestic harbor blow the choking products of industrial forges into the fey rainforests that dot its knife-toothed mountains. Since the earliest ages when the people of Risur founded this city, they feared the capricious beings that hid in those fog-shrouded peaks, but now as the march of progress and the demands of national defense turn Flint into a garden for artifice and technology, the old faiths and rituals that kept the lurkers of the woods at bay are being abandoned.

The Unseen Court, the Great Hunt, and the many spirits of the land long ago conquered by Risur’s kings no longer receive tribute, but they cannot enter these new cities of steam and steel to demand their tithe. The impoverished workers who huddle in factory slums fear monsters of a different breed, shadowy children of this new urban labyrinth. Even their modern religions have no defenses against these fiends.

Times are turning. The skyseers – Risurs folk prophets since their homeland’s birth – witness omens in the starry wheels of heaven, and they warn that a new age is nigh. But what they cannot foresee, hidden beyond the steam and soot of the night sky, is the face of this coming era, the spirit of the age. The zeitgeist..

In the ZEITGEIST™ campaign saga, your characters serve in the Homeland Constabulary of the nation of Risur, protecting the country and its citizens from foreign threats lurking within Risur’s borders. During missions of espionage and assassination, your duty will be to root out hostile spies and pursue international conspiracies. As you learn more of your homeland’s own secrets, however, your loyalties may be tested, may even be turned, and you may find that it is you whose hand controls the gears of the turning age.

Alternatively

Sherlock Holmes meets James Bond. You are elite investigators during a fantasy industrial revolution wherein old religions, new philosophies, mighty nations, and obscure conspiracies vie to direct the spirit of the new age. Root out dark schemes and decide whether to defend the status quo or ally with reformers, radicals, or revolutionaries.

[upbeat ridge]

hate that they headlined with "dnd rival"

[vital kiln]

...y'know what would be an interesting system for combination weapons

Instead of having like, a set list you can pick from, have a like

Crafting system to make your own combination weapon

Would it be a massive pain in the ass to make and an even bigger pain to balance? No doubt.

Would it absolutely kick ass though? HELL yeah it would.

[errant roost]

honestly, you could probably start with "everybody gets to swap between two weapons at will" and then figure out what makes swapping interesting. like, Monhun makes swapping weapons part of a combo, and usually has attacks in one form power up the other -- what does that look like for a TTRPG?

[vital kiln]

For Pathfinder I'd imagine it'd be an attack action... maybe a double action?

Though if it was a double action it probably would incentivize just manually swapping more

[errant roost]

we also have the exemplar model now, where you have some kind of flashy attack/action that swaps your weapons

[surreal basin]

Tbh combo weapons are in an even worse place after the remaster

[vital kiln]

Yeah

[surreal basin]

The swap action makes them mostly pointless

[vital kiln]

They're GREAT for drifters but that's about it

[silver geyser]

Ah, Switch Axe mode

[surreal basin]

Yeah they’re good for the two subclasses designed to use them

[vital kiln]

And even then it's just a way to be a bit better at smacking shit with a melee weapon

[errant roost]

unironically though. this is something I think about occasionally, 'cause it seems like catnip for the right kind of goofy-crunchy combat game. it's such a fun trope!

[vital kiln]

For real

[vital kiln]

How does the exemplar swap work? Could be a decent basis for a combination weapon swap.

[errant roost]

https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/classes/exemplar-playtest?srsltid=AfmBOooD8jHx5AOBWz-nEtZe2HFoZRph4Vs8sPvfnVFoXwH1x067-DCk
you buff your equipment with different ikons. One ikon can be "immanent" and gets an extra buff. One/round you can do a super-special-awesome action with that ikon, in exchange you have to switch your immanence to a different ikon.

[vital kiln]

Hrmm

Single-action transforming strike definitely seems like the best idea...

[eager mountain]

Alls fair in love and war( gaming)

[novel merlin]

WaywardSuns.jpg

[novel merlin]

Stab and blast is already a feat, as well as the critical fusion trait on combination weapons

[wary yoke]

Do 2E wizards have a rough equivalent for protection from arrows?

[vital kiln]

That's true

[clever cobalt]

is the Combination Weapon archetype good now?

for Gunslinger

[warped orbit]

They do get full proficiency with them now

Which does help

[vital kiln]

Aye, Drifters especially benefit from it because they now have Fighter-equivalent proficiency with combination melees, which is just real nice

Also there's a combination weapon archetype??

[clever cobalt]

Subclass of Gunslinger

Not like

A full archetype for any class

[vital kiln]

Oh, Triggerbrand you mean

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[astral prawn]

My GM said no I cannot change my actions, I failed to use my item and it's drained for the day because I failed the flat check, I can't change what I do. Fair.

Also GM: Ignore the last 10 minutes, I read this bit wrong so all the info you just learned is meta knowledge. Also this creature can do different actions so it's not going to open this door, it'll do something else instead

Now I the sorcerer am Drained 4 and Stupefied 4 because all the vampire things jumped me. If she lets someone else take back their action I'm gonna quit I swear to god

[vital kiln]

That is absolutely reasonable, I'd be pretty fucking mad too

[errant roost]

if you otherwise like this GM/this game, could be worth talking it out after the game.

[astral prawn]

Tbf, I did rush out into the room alongside the Champion, who was basically ignored the whole round

She let a demon drop their disguise as a free action, move, then spit on me twice

Shouldn't have used a really good heal, made me a target for everyone and their grandma right out of the gate

[vital kiln]

Presently trying to cook something

Twisting Tree magus with a Staff Acrobat free archetype, use it as a sword and staff fighting style

Sword does the heavy lifting of doing damage, staff exists to cast spells, bonk stuff that's weak to bludgeoning, and engage in Tripping and Shoving with Staff Acrobat

How stupid is this idea

[astral prawn]

Nothing's a stupid idea imo, go for it it's one of my favourite archetypes

Also I think another player just rage quit on us

[vital kiln]

Maybe not stupid, but it's certainly not a great idea I can't imagine

What happened?

[astral prawn]

They were using a feat with their alchemical bombs to give them the traits of metals, cycling through silver and cold iron to see if it procs weakness

They used cold iron on their bombs, proc'd the Demon's weakness to cold iron, kept using it and then the GM decided it was metagaming because they wouldn't know a Demon would be weak to Cold Iron (Without using Recall Knowledge), thus never would have applied it to the bombs in the first place

[vital kiln]

...

I'm not gonna lie

I'd be real fucking upset too

[astral prawn]

He says he's gone on to do emails, wants us to ping him when it's his go

[sturdy lagoon]

"metagaming" for figuring out a weakness methodologically

Read:

"my players are enjoying their victory too much and I think this is a competition"

[astral prawn]

I feel she's rather new to GMing tbh? Still frustrating and he got real pissed off about it

[errant roost]

It's the trolls are weak to fire problem again. Everyone knows it. Some people get mad if you don't play act at finding it out every time.

[clever cobalt]

Yeaaaah

I got kicked from a game for a similar issue

(I knew the weakness of a troll and recommended we used fire)

I get where they're coming from but like

idk

[astral prawn]

I get it too, but it's something they established they were doing with their bombs?

[clever cobalt]

Not trying to justify it

just commenting on it

if they set it up beforehand, I honestly don't see a huge issue with that being metagaming

[astral prawn]

The whole "10 minutes thing didn't happen" was worse imo

[sturdy lagoon]

Like if they were sacrificing actions trying out other metal types that's probably playing around knowing metainfo

[clever cobalt]

yeah

agreed

[astral prawn]

Yeah like it makes sense for an alchemist to test things with their materials and seeing what works/what doesn't

[clever cobalt]

Regardless yeah, sounds frustrating

honestly if I was in that position I'd leave but

how far are you in the campaign?

[turbid dagger]

Honest to goodness the perception of metagaming as a problem is something that drives me a little nuts
Can it very slightly detract from the difficulty of some fights? Yes
But so long as it doesn't cause problems for the story, i.e. someone using knowledge of an APs plot to mess around
Like, who cares

[astral prawn]

Like halfway through a module-ish

[clever cobalt]

How long have you been with the group?

[astral prawn]

Like a few months? I'm torn between toughing it out until the end and just leaving altogether now

[clever cobalt]

mhm

[errant roost]

IMO, talking through your frustration out of game is a win/win. Either you can reach an understanding and get a better game, or you can't and you know for sure it wasn't a great fit

[sturdy lagoon]

If you have knowledge of an AP's plot and don't play along with the GM for the sake of other player enjoyment, tbh that's kind of a jerk move

Like obviously don't keep that secret from your GM because you're "trustworthy", but if you know, tell them, maybe offer to be a good sport about it, and respectfully bow out if they don't want to deal with the logistics of DMPC by proxy

[echo briar]

Yea, as long as you aren’t literally looking through AoN mid fight it’s fine

[surreal basin]

I would only be peeved if my players were like “oh this guys lowest save is reflex everyone, I’ve seen his statblock once”

Just cause information like that not being public in PF2e is pretty intentional

But it’s whatever

I don’t think metagaming is a huge issue generally I guess

[fossil dome]

I mean, unless you play a Thaumaturge

[astral prawn]

Oh yeah the Alchemist player is so obviously done

[fossil dome]

Fair, tbh

[astral prawn]

Was a 210 xp Encounter so honestly it was gonna be a rough encounter

I destroyed the demon controlling the PCs but because it's a poison they're just standing there making fort saves or they can't do anything

[fossil dome]

Bruh

[astral prawn]

At least she's letting us potentially Treat Poison?

[fossil dome]

But yeah

Figuring out weakneses IC isn't metagaming

[glossy ridge]

i feel like if a weakness is famous your just gonna know

[astral prawn]

Like yeah there was a legit hundred year war against demons that ended like four years ago right?

[glossy ridge]

also do you really thing a book on well known monster weakness isnt gonna exist

that would be one of the first things i would buy if i was an adventurer

[fossil dome]

Mhm, mhm

[glossy ridge]

its probally not gonna have something like brass kobolds 'left leg is weak to icecream

[vital kiln]

I feel like people conflate "metagaming" with "having literally any knowledge of anything in-game that isn't explicitly spelled out for your characters"

[fossil dome]

Yeah

[vital kiln]

Which fucking sucks

[astral prawn]

The worst I can imagine is like asking PCs to Recall Knowledge everytime you meet a new Demon in Wrath of the Righteous to know and properly exploit that they have Holy and Cold Iron weakness

[vital kiln]

...what do you mean Recall Knowledge to see if they're weak to HOLY

[fossil dome]

Yeah, if I was in that campaign, I would assume they were weak until presumed otherwise

[frank crystal]

I have played with a pretty bad metagamer before, and I do think the type he did did genuinely hurt the game several times

It was mostly in the “uses knowledge from scenes his character wasn’t in” though