Pathfinder

[turbid dagger]

It's just a generally good weapon that qualifies for some good ikons
Gleaming blade on a d8 deadly d12 is solid

[wary yoke]

I'm going with Barrow's Edge; the damage may not be the best all the time, but I love me some self-healing

[clever cobalt]

It's also good if you crit

Becauae of all that damage

(And therefore healing)

[trim grotto]

i am intrigued by the notion of hungerseed poppet with oni form

[echo briar]

One of my players is describing how her father was out of town the night before the campaign starts. Little does she know I’m listening very closely because if he’s in the right spot at the right time, he is dead before the campaign starts

[carmine egret]

For a second I thought you meant the PLAYER'S dad, lol

[echo briar]

If your father dies in the game, they die in real life.

[eager mountain]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vby-AuehJgA&t=6s

[echo briar]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Familiars.aspx?ID=168 is there any reason for this ability to ever not switch out itself?

Because it just seems like "you can decide this ability later in the day" with a lot more wording than needed

are any familiar abilities active detriments other than construct, which I don't think this can get rid of because its a requirement

[surreal basin]

Well presumably the intent is for you to swap out a less situationally useful ability with one more suited to what’s going on

[echo briar]

yes, but what is less situational than itself after its been used?

[surreal basin]

Well at that point you can’t use it again

It’s about constantly having the flexibility

Rather than a one time new trait

[echo briar]

its once a day

tomorrow you can just change it normally

[surreal basin]

No cause the ability doesn’t revert back

It’s a permanent change until you change it again

[echo briar]

you can swap familiar abilities every day

[surreal basin]

… what?

….. huh

[echo briar]

"Instead of choosing two abilities only when you gain your familiar as you do with a normal pet, you can choose the two abilities each day during your daily preparations. " PC, pg 212

[surreal basin]

So you can

Very strange

Uh, yeah I guess so then

[steel blade]

familiar: sheet of origami paper
abilities: construct, versatile form
just fold it into whatever shape makes sense for whatever ability you want to give it for the rest of the day

[echo briar]

yea, this just seems like it could just be worded as "swap this ability with any other as a 10 minuet activity"

unless it is unintended for it to work with itself

which makes this ability much less useful.

but like, this is an ability that requires 2 other abilities (it needs construct, and construct needs toughness) and you must be trained in crafting. it seems balanced to me

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah for sure

It’s absolutely balanced

[wary yoke]

Still hate that

[silver geyser]

It's either that, or you don't let it be used in PFS

[craggy thunder]

I honestly see it

and like

it's the organized play program

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/warlock-richard-richard-the-warlock-lfg-looking-for-group-gif-15114622

Idk I just thought of Richard

[wary yoke]

It still feels utterly out-of-character for Pharasma

But I stopped playing PFS a decade ago, so whatever

[surreal basin]

It’s that or also PFS pvp :p

[rustic cape]

It absolutely is, but the phrasing suggests that it’s, “we, Paizo, asked Pharasma to do us a solid here,” and I find that pretty funny.

This is not a missive from the diegetic PF Society, but from the real-life PF Society

[surreal basin]

Lmao it is funny from the perspective of Pharasma getting a message from HER boss

[wary yoke]

See, that would have made more sense. If Pharasma had stayed ambiguous, and the Society is saying "This is strictly disallowed"

[dapper tusk]

it's obviously not ideal, but the only alternative i can think of is undead races just not being allowed in PFS

and i think bending the lore a bit is definitely preferable to banning fun

[wary yoke]

I never played 2E PFS, so I don't know how permissive it was with non-core ancestries compared to 1E PFS

But I wouldn't have blinked if they weren't allowed

[surreal basin]

I believe very, I think almost every ancestry is allowed

Yeah I also wouldn’t have been surprised at that

But I also have a negative opinion of organized play in general :p

[wary yoke]

I mean, I have fond memories of earning my Tiefling characters in PFS before the floodgates opened

[surreal basin]

Yeah according to AON every ancestry except shoony is unrestricted

And I believe shoony have to be earned cause they’re from extinction curse

Ah wait no

[wary yoke]

One of them went until retirement, and was a very interesting (if not optimized) Magus/Cleric/Mystic Theurge

[surreal basin]

You still need a boon

For rare options

Which I believe includes skeletons

[wary yoke]

Ah, that makes more sense

[rustic cape]

Undead stuff is all rare iirc, yeah

[surreal basin]

Yeah so I guess at least it’s like

Unlikely

[rustic cape]

It’s a contingency saying “suspend your disbelief if this weird unlikely thing happens”

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Although Ngl I do kinda have a mental image of society play as the no fun allowed sign :p

[turbid dagger]

I mean honestly
There is stuff that you Cannot Take in PFS
Skeleton could've handily been one of them

[frank crystal]

I mean then you’d have to include every other undead player option

Which like, is a solid amount of them

[surreal basin]

It’s a choice between two compromises and they made the one that allows more options

[echo briar]

What class would you use for a paper Mario build?

Martial obviously, but it needs to be able to attack by jumping and using a hammer, which pulls it in two very different directions

[errant roost]

1e could be a brawler, using feat swapping to represent badges.

[echo briar]

I think fighter might work best because the shield feats represent blocks

And AoO represent perfect parries

actually, wait, spirit warrior swashbuckler

[surreal basin]

Yeah swashbuckler would be good

[echo briar]

The problem I'm seeing is that spirit warrior seems necessary for jump+hammer, but it does not play nice with finishers

[surreal basin]

Why is it necessary?

[echo briar]

parry on fists, 1d6 fists, only one set of runes

also swashbuckler has oddly little jumping feats.

[trail nova]

Hey, anyone have advice for playing an Animist? Setting up for a game. I don't think we're doing any variant rules though.

[surreal basin]

Arguably could also do dragon stance

[fossil dome]

You are melee Gunslinger

[surreal basin]

Since it doesn’t lock you into the special unarmed attacks and they’re good and explicitly leg

[trail nova]

?? That doesn't seem like it's actually the case

[fossil dome]

As in, DPS/support hybrid

[rustic cape]

I've been playing one at high level

In Strength of Thousands

So, a couple of things. @trail nova

• Play a Liturgist. It's better than the other subclasses, and more importantly, it has more weird fun tricks (especially once the dancing comes in at level 9).
• Your action economy is going to be pretty packed. By default, you're going to be casting a spell + sustaining a vessel spell on most turns. (Level 9+ liturgist eases this up a lot with the dancing.)
• Use your divine prepared slots to fill out what your apparition spells don't give you. Divine is a weak list, though, so if you can find the spare feats to dip into Time Mage a bit, that'll be great.
• Remember, all apparition spells are signature spells. This means Embodiment of Balance gives you heal and harm as signature spells for a 2nd-level feat. This is a very strong pick, and lets you essentially neglect whatever spells your apparitions provide you (probably don't do this but you can).
• My #1 apparition recommendation is Steward of Stone and Fire. Custodian of Groves and Gardens has great healing via the vessel spell but the spells are not amazing. Those two are a good start. From then on, probably don't worry too much about vessel spells until your sustain economy gets good (and it will get very good).
• I've mentioned the dancing. The dancing lets you sustain for free any time you step, leap, or tumble through. There are a ton of ways to optimize this by getting extra steps or by making your leaps crazy huge. My animist just backflips everywhere in a fight. Failing that, you can just tumble through empty air, effectively making the action a stride.
• Hilariously, as a prepared caster who is also a divine caster, you can go absolutely fucking crazy with a staff, effectively just adding a whole bunch of spells you can have at all times.

[surreal basin]

(The only part I disagree with is divine being a weak list but that’s a whole conversation)

[trail nova]

Any recommendations for ancestry? I know there’s some ancestry specific leap tech

[surreal basin]

Tengu

[turbid dagger]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1icjkuc/i_got_my_physical_copy_of_guns_gears_remastered/?share_id=cZokYd4I7zy_JBluQyeVI&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1

If you had told me yesterday that Triggerbrand was going to be the best Gunslinger Way after the guns & gears remaster I would have laughed

And yet

[thorny berry]

wh-

why did they fix the proficiency on triggerbrand but not drifter lmao

oh spellshot getting a 3-action spellstrike thing is hot

(beastgunner was already a thing of course but it's nice to not be pigeonholed into it for that)

[turbid dagger]

That IS unfortunate
But
Gun Sword is finally not only viable but like
SPICY spicy

I can play a gunblade fella! Finally!!

[surreal basin]

I feel like drifter didn’t get it because the gun is still supposed to be the star

[fossil dome]

Drfter is gun + blade, right?

(Pistolero/sniper fan)

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Sniper can also stay hidden if they have a suppressor now which fucks

[turbid dagger]

God
Legendary prof gun sword...
I'm playing night of the grey death as a gun sword vanguard
And we'll be adopting the changes when it drops
I'm SO excited

[frank crystal]

Hope these come to foundry soon

One of my players is a drifter gunslinger

Unfortunately they will not be dropping before a massive boss fight next session

[fossil dome]

Well, 278 supressors

[surreal basin]

…. What

[fossil dome]

Oh, they're no longer single use?

[surreal basin]

No they are just why that many :p

Also their gun isn’t for specific reason, it’s always suppressed

[fossil dome]

Sustained fire against anything

[rustic cape]

Strix get longer leaps and can get into Winged Warrior for even longer longer leaps. Elves and Strix both get to make two steps as one action with a feat

Tripkee can increase leap distance with a feat

Tengu get leaps without AoOs but only vertical leaps, and most leap tech specifically doesn't improve those, so it ends up being about as good as stepping for pure horizontal mobility

IMO if you have absolutely no preference, Mage Automaton w/Adopted Ancestry elf is probably the pick

Oh, and of course the ghoul archetype lets you leap without taking reactions. But that's a pretty big character choice.

Still, if you need to clear a big creature's reach, it's pretty unrivaled

There's also monk-specific leap and step tech but most of it requires a stance and your stance will probably be spoken for with Channeler's Stance

(I'll note that in my own play I have not done even close to all this optimization, mostly I've just grabbed some leap stuff amd called it a day)

(Ultimately: you are a caster)

(With good sustain focus spells)

[errant roost]

triggerbrand is the transforming weapon archetype, right? is it finally time for bloodborne cosplay?

[frank crystal]

It’s the hybrid weapon subclass for gunslinger

Sword guns and axe guns and other melee weapon guns

[trim grotto]

I wish exemplar worked better with combination weapons. It'd be cool if a gun sword could have the sword half be gleaming blade and the gun half be starshot

[errant roost]

hrm. so they reduced the self damage on inventors, and made the check easier (? nethys already has the DC at 15, so I don't know if that already got updated), but still kept the failure chance. Is that enough to put inventor in a good place?

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, its centered around Combination Weapons, which are getting a vast, vast buff with Gunslinger come the G&G update

[warped orbit]

the change to DC15 was already errata'd in before

going to 13 at Legendary is new

[light gyro]

strength of thousands book 5 spoiler
||the party killed the King of Biting Ants by ONE NUMBER.||

[clever cobalt]

lmao

[warped orbit]

https://tenor.com/view/hahaha-one-snapcube-sonic-the-hedgehog-gif-27436474

[trim grotto]

how could i play a highly mobile spellcaster?

was thinking psychic with sixth pillar dedication but that doesn't really come online until very very late

[light gyro]

I'd just pick buff spells that give you the movement you're looking for. Longstrider, fly, haste etc

[trail nova]

Liturgist Animist at 9+

[novel merlin]

Sorcerer gets some mobility based blood magic

[rustic cape]

Seconding liturgist animist, you get to sustain and move as a single action, including various fancy ways of moving. My animist spends most rounds doing at least one backflip.

[surreal basin]

Man

Heavy armor being so locked behind level 2 and 3 is so fucking weird

[rustic cape]

It is, yeah

I like this game a lot but it’s got some pain points

Some of them are odd legacy stuff like that

One is not just saying upfront, “we’ve got the mechanics we’ve got and that means some concepts just aren’t supported”

[surreal basin]

Yeah

[rustic cape]

It’s not as bad as D&D’s “you can do anything with this game”

But it is still there in limited form

[frank crystal]

What do you mean?

[rustic cape]

You can't afford it

[frank crystal]

Oh

Huh

[rustic cape]

Technically you can afford the +5/+1 stuff

[surreal basin]

theyre level 2 items and are worth 30 gp

[frank crystal]

I actually never noticed

[surreal basin]

you start with 15

[rustic cape]

If you don't buy much of anything else

[surreal basin]

i assume youve never made a heavy armor character at level 1 then lol

[frank crystal]

I don’t think I’ve ever played a heavy armor character so I never noticed they’re not level 0

[frank crystal]

Yah I don’t like the speed penalty

[rustic cape]

But if you're building for heavy armor there's a good chance you dumped dex

[turbid dagger]

A decent number of builds can afford splint mail but not most of them yeeee

What I've heard rec'd for early levels is breastplate and armored skirt

[rustic cape]

I think personally I'd just give the level 1 PC plate

Like, you can have plate and your main weapon

Whatever

At least for champion

And probably for fighter as well

[turbid dagger]

Yeeee

Bo staff splint mail is a beloved pick of mine for fighter

[surreal basin]

im wearing lattice armor and armored skirt

[turbid dagger]

But it's true that it oughnt be needed

Ooooo yeah right lattice

[frank crystal]

I forget, what are mummies’s resurrection tied to?

Nevermind found it

Their tomb has to be consecrated

My players have no way to do that

Looks like it won’t be the last time they see Alexander

[frank crystal]

Hmm, what’s the highest speed a PC can get?

Including any and all items, feats, and features you can add

[turbid dagger]

Well over a hundred, due to dragon forms' fly speed
An exact figure is going to be very hard to find due to all the sources

[frank crystal]

Oh yah dragon form

[wary yoke]

For a second I thought I had stumbled into a discussion on the airspeed velocity of an unladen dragon

[frank crystal]

Luckily this is only the airspeed of a person who becomes a dragon

[surreal basin]

I believe it is 145 fly speed

Jerkin of liberation for +15 item, and then fleet step gives a +30 status bonus, and dragon form gives u a base fly speed of 100

[frank crystal]

Thanks

[surreal basin]

No way to my knowledge to get a circumstance bonus to speed

[vocal ember]

I think fleet step only applies to your land Speed? Swashbuckler's status bonus explicitly applies to all your Speeds tho so that could still work

[surreal basin]

It just says “to your speed”

[vocal ember]

Speed by default just means land Speed I think

[surreal basin]

Which I think would apply to all of them

Huh

That blows

Well in that case I don’t care about flying because the answer to that is boring, just be a dragon

The fastest land speed u can have is:
be a centaur tiefling with the nimble hooves feat, starting you off with a baseline of 35

Jerkin gets you up to 50, with the boost from fleet step getting you up to 80

Pick up adopted ancestry elf to grab nimble elf which adds as ADDITIONAL untyped speed bonus

85

Fleet is also untyped!

90

Oh wait! There’s more!

If you’re willing to except circumstantial bullshit

The potion of emergency escape has a +40 status bonus to all speeds as long as you’re fleeing

So as long as you are fleeing, you can run at 100

Now for how fast you can move in a single turn, we can blow dragon form out of the fucking water

You are a barbarian who has been quickened by the haste spell

You use furious sprint while all of this is happening, the three action version, to stride 8 times

And your quickened action, obvious, to stride a 9th

For 900 feet in 6 seconds

[wary yoke]

My friend was looking at Furious Sprint, it hilarious

[surreal basin]

If you’re curious

Your character can, for 1 minute

Move at 102 miles an hour

[stuck bane]

All of this I assume can stack with that one spell that … fetchlings(?) can get as a 13th level ancestry feet that lets you traverse long distances at some big ratio? Like per… some smaller interval you travel the equivalent of a full day iirc?

I’d have to look it up, I just know one of my players has it

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah unreal journey

Most of these bonuses only last 1 minute

But umbral journey increases your speed to 3 days per hour which is a 72 times increase

But also that’s not really making you faster

So much as it’s like… using Minecraft nether travel

[stuck bane]

Yeah your speed doesn’t actually change, but you can effectively move ~122 miles in a minute

If I did that math right

[surreal basin]

Probably lol

Yeah that’s right

[frank crystal]

Fuck yah

[surreal basin]

Also

I am officially going to run season of ghosts!

[echo briar]

Cool. Have you seen the twist ™️ yet?

[frank crystal]

Nice!

[surreal basin]

Yeag they’re v upfront about it

In the GM books

[crystal walrus]

spoiler it - what's the Twist ™️

[turbid dagger]

Be forewarned that if you ever want to play the AP you really shouldn't know this
But I'll let Emily type it up

[surreal basin]

First I will note that it’s pretty core to the experience of the AP yeah

[echo briar]

||hey, you know how the campaign is set in the past?||

||no it isn’t||

[surreal basin]

||yeah in more detail, you’re trapped in a purgatory esque timeloop because everyone in the AP died many many years ago in the inciting incident of the AP||

Again, DO NOT READ if u ever want to maybe play Season of Ghosts

[crystal walrus]

mmm.

[surreal basin]

Yeah?

[crystal walrus]

I read it

|| I think i'd be sore if i found that out over the course of play ||

[surreal basin]

||in what manner of speaking||

[crystal walrus]

|| I mean obviously i don't know the context ofc, just dead all along seems a little like a letdown||

[surreal basin]

||it’s a little more complicated, but explaining the whole thing would be a little hard lol||

[crystal walrus]

ofc.

Aye, i don't know many who like running APs, so the risk of my playing it is low

and i'll either forget by then, or just play along

plenty more to do outside of a twist.

I will say i think the Player's Guides are some of the best things to ever happen with pathfinder products

[surreal basin]

:NOD:

FUCK

[trail nova]

I always love it when the players guide throws in a little "hey, this might be a good skill/background/ect." that leaves you going "what the fuck?"

[crystal walrus]

best example of that?

[trail nova]

None I can think of of the top of my head, I haven't read a lot of them

[frank crystal]

What are those?

[clever cobalt]

I got the twist spoiled to me online, when I was still a player in the first book

[crystal walrus]

Things you give players for guidelines for chargen, unique backgrounds, any mechanics to know

https://paizo.com/store/pathfinder/adventures/adventurePath/seasonOfGhosts

like here's the page for Season

https://downloads.paizo.com/SeasonofGhosts_PlayersGuide.pdf

Backgrounds, Appropriate Classes, Who you are and where you might come from

:<

[surreal basin]

There’s a funny one with stolen fate

When it recommends taking demon, devil, and daemon lores

And you’re like…. Uhhh… o-okay then

[frank crystal]

Oh nice

[crystal walrus]

yeah i wish more things had that

even just a page on like - decent picks for character options

[craggy thunder]

god 1e solarian's damage is

fucked

[fossil dome]

Which way?

[craggy thunder]

minimum 22 maximum 34 at level 6 compared to everyone else's being lower than that

so fucked (high) xD

[fossil dome]

Ah, yeah

As opposed to being like, half any other class

It's realllllly squish, though, AIUI?

[craggy thunder]

photon sheath, photon crystal and soulfire seal moment

I mean

Solarian's best save is Fortitude, it has 7 hp per level plus con

I got heavy armor proficiency with a feat

Not

Very squishy xD

I am in fact the tankiest in the party I think

[fossil dome]

Ah

Main character syndrome, I see

[craggy thunder]

?

I mean

Okay is that a statement as to how you think I'm playing or

[fossil dome]

Sorry, was meant to be a joke, forgot tone marker

[craggy thunder]

all right, fair lol

in all seriousness no, I am not the main character lol

We've thankfully struck the balance where there isn't one really

I'm one of the two characters who's most directly involved with one of the two opposing factions in the story, but that's it

but we're all very personally invested in the plot through faction involvement or Adopting A Child About It

[fossil dome]

Heh, good

I'm in a game at the moment where we've been told that we'll be forming a minor clan, and we're all like "wait, who's gonna have to be daimyo?"

[craggy thunder]

Fucking

Tatooine moment

[fossil dome]

L5r

So Japan

[craggy thunder]

oooooooh I

thought that was in Starfinder

so I thought you were making the Book of Boba Fett joke

[fossil dome]

Ah, no, sorry

[craggy thunder]

I mean you're fine lmao

[craggy thunder]

we're fighting a weird flying thing with

a bunch of eyes

It is apparently natural

[fossil dome]

Beholder

[craggy thunder]

I should have specified flying as in like

possessed of wings

This thing

[fossil dome]

....

Huh

[trim grotto]

animist is really really cool

[light gyro]

Getting pressed by randomly remembering a small argument I got into online where I gushed about the player dossiers paizo gives out for it's APs and someone told me 'presenting all that info is the GM's job actually'

[fossil dome]

What, no!

[surreal basin]

Evil

[fossil dome]

Same person probably wonders why all their GMs get burnout

[surreal basin]

Especially since most of the value comes from “this skill is used a lot or not much” in this AP which is a lot to ask a GM to know about a 6 book adventure lol

Although sometimes Paizo also gets it wrong

[thorny berry]

weird thing to be precious about when you're using a pre-written adventure in the first place

[limber comet]

If you're running a campaign that's not pre-made, usually the gm will adapt to your strengths and weaknesses as a party

[solar storm]

These are so nice

Especially for lores

[crystal walrus]

that's funny as fuck

because. I was reading "The Kobold Guide to Plots and Campaigns" a few years back, and there the author gushes about the AP guides and their utility. and how gms can emulate them for good effect.

[wary yoke]

I was doing some planning for the Exemplar I'm going to be playing in my upcoming 2E campaign and I realized that he is unwillingly turning into a demigod of life

Unwillingly being the key part; he only has the divine spark because an evil god of fertility tried to have him prepared as a possible host

Vow of Mortal Defiance is essentially the character's thesis statement

[true delta]

That's so cool

[echo briar]

I’m building an exemplar, and I think between my planed Ikons of victors wreath, barrows edge, and scar of the survivor one of them needs to go, probably one of the last two as they both provide healing

In the campaign I’m currently in, my barbarian has spent too many turns at full hp, which if I was playing the exemplar would mean turns without transcending

Between the two, barrows edge is definitely better, but there are much better weapon ikons to replace it with, while the worse scar has less competition with the other body and worn ikons.

[silver geyser]

Barbarians at full HP feels wild to me.

Because man, are the enemies just not swinging at you?

[turbid dagger]

Well barbs don't have the AC malus anymore, unless you are Giant
But yeah they're a big aggro puller

[echo briar]

The problem isn’t that I’m going combat’s without damage. It’s that I’m going rounds without damage

Round one of combat, the boss targets my ally instead of me, there are multiple enemies but I one shot the only one near me

[turbid dagger]

Oh I see
What you can do is fill the gaps with feats
Slap Blinding Of The Needle or Steel On Steel on Barrow's Edge, you now have a Transcend for when you are at full HP

[echo briar]

Yea, but you can’t get that before level 4

Also, I’m not sure I need that much healing

[silver geyser]

You will need healing at the low levels. It will be great there.

[turbid dagger]

When you want that much healing you'll really appreciate it though
Barrow/Scar loop is a time-honored and play-tested approach to exemplar

That said, nothing is wrong with swapping one out if you want too
Just don't feel as if you are hampering yourself if you take both

[silver geyser]

Low levels (3 or below) are still the cornerstone of Everything is Fine to Suddenly Everything is Fucked.

[echo briar]

Also, steel on steel is going to be much better on victors wreath.

Its imminence is incredible, but while its transcendence is powerfully, it’s niche. Letting me cycle between that and edge is probably much stronger and more versatile

[rustic cape]

It is outrageously, unnecessarily cool

My only objections are (a) the subclasses really aren't even close to equivalent, and (b) where is the storm apparition with cold and lightning and weather spells

On (a) I'm not even necessarily talking about power, just

IMO Liturgist is more fun because of leaning into the sustain shenanigans

[trim grotto]

Liturgist + sixth pillar dedication allows you to sustain, cast a spell, and leap with only two actions

It's insane

[rustic cape]

Oh shit didn't notice that combo

[trim grotto]

And darkened forest letting you change your battle form with the same action you sustain it with is unbelievable

Literally chain polymorph

[rustic cape]

Yeah there's a lot of silly sustain optimization that is wonderful

[trim grotto]

Yeah it's a pretty insane combo

[rustic cape]

It could be toned down, frankly, and it would still be a lot of fun

[trim grotto]

Probably yeah

[clever cobalt]

The closest we'll ever get to a 2e Shifter

I really want Shifter for 2e

[trim grotto]

Oh and I just remembered that witness to battles let's you actually effectively gish

Witness to ancient battles +exemplar dedication for a weapon ikon would be really cool

[trim grotto]

Fr yeah

[thorny berry]

battle form animist is good then? I was always kinda iffy on the sustaining thing

my baseline assumption from druid is just that battle forms exist as a better alternative to cantrips when you don't feel like burning more spell slots

[eager mountain]

realy shit take

on thier part

[trim grotto]

From what I understand, absolutely

[surreal basin]

It’s good but kinda becomes like

Ur whole deal

Is my understanding

[trim grotto]

Definitely

That's the trade off really is that you have to focus your feats solely on that one apparition, so you no longer get the versatility of switching between them

[thorny berry]

I assume the power level is still, like, lower than A Martial for obvious reasons so it kinda remains a backup option as above?

just because even with no other features you're still a full ass caster

[echo briar]

It’s unique, because it’s power level is actually about average, it’s just way less versatile

You are hard locked into grudge strike+ sustain every round

[thorny berry]

Ah. Probably not for me, then.

[echo briar]

Yea, if you don’t do that you are burning actions for little benefit

[warped orbit]

the Grudge Strike rotation is actually quite good yeah, it's just also pretty much the only thing you can do

[frank crystal]

What’s grudge strike?

[turbid dagger]

https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/feats/grudge-strike-rm This crazy shit

+2 circ to hit and some void/vitality damage

[frank crystal]

Oh shit that’s insane

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah that’s not bad

Combined with the other stuff rhat gets u functionally legendary prof for the attack yeah?

[craggy thunder]

finished art of my vesk solarian by https://www.instagram.com/teakip/?hl=en

[limber comet]

Hella based

[limber comet]

Exemplar is so mean

The investigator and oracle almost went down

Meanwhile, me? Unscathed, with two one hit kills

[clever cobalt]

Exemplar sweep

[rapid wagon]

question, is it possible to play a dual wielding magus?

[rustic cape]

It's not really supported

Generally to dual-wield effectively you need specific feats or synergies

Magus doesn't have any, and doesn't mesh amazingly does Dual-Weapon Warrior

[rapid wagon]

dang

[rustic cape]

Your actions are usually pretty spoken-for as a magus

[rapid wagon]

hmm, is there a way to go like faux magus as a class that can dual wield?

spellsword it up with twin scimitars or something

[turbid dagger]

Ranger, especially with archetypes, can do the gish fantasy pretty well so long as you give up on actually spellstriking

Rivethun Involutionist is a favorite

[rapid wagon]

Hmm OK...

Still thinking about what a replacement for my champion will be if his head explodes due to a slugspawn infection

[thorny berry]

I would say there's no synergy with any sort of spellstrike build specifically because that's always going to be a single-weapon strike that increments your MAP, so from there your options are:
-get double slice or some equivalent, use magic for either single-action spells or occasional ranged/heal/buff turns
-get something like the ranger's twin takedown that lets you use both weapons with one action and then cast a spell

exemplar probably has space for some pretty 'magic-feeling' dual wielding without actual casting

[turbid dagger]

What you can also do is snag the spells out there that cal for making a weapon strike
Like Warding Aggression and Blink Charge
Cast with your main weapon, follow up with your offhand
Still on a martial chassis, naturally

Ranger also eventually gets stuff like this, depends on character level obv https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/spells/pulverizing-wake

[rapid wagon]

follow up question, is there a situation where crafting is worthwhile? it feels like it takes a LOT of time and you could earn income for the same time investment to just buy the good

rather than getting the feat investment and recipe acquisition

it seems as though there's very little reason to get into crafting unless your campaign doesn't have the option to buy stuff

investment vs reward seems a little wack

seems difficult to like buy into the sort of "my character is a badass blacksmith" fantasy

unless im missing some feats or class features

[rustic cape]

Pretty much, yeah

[rapid wagon]

that's a shame

[rustic cape]

Well

Okay there is one case for crafting

If you would otherwise be doing Earn Income and the task level available is not equal to your level

[rapid wagon]

We're just sort of running into the situation where a player was thinking they could craft themselves simple things, like replacement ammo, in the field; as they're playing a dwarven ranger from a craftsperson family. It seems like they might need to kinda put down that idea

any idea if there are any community suggestions for adjusting/engaging with the idea

i suppose crafting is still good as a skill

2 days minimum to like make 10 crossbow bolts is hilarious

[wary yoke]

Magus+ might have something

But that's 3PP

[novel merlin]

Crafting is good if you have a decent amount of time and don't have access to high level cities like absalom or goka

[rapid wagon]

its one of these situations where he took magic crafting to move a rune, and we're realizing that it probably just wasnt worth the feat investment

[turbid dagger]

Crafting gets at least ostensibly more important as levels go up, because you can usually only buy items and partake in services up to the settlement level of the settlement you are in

With some settlements having modifiers, like Highhelm the big dwarven city giving access to weapons and armor a few levels higher than settlement level because of it's massive forges

[rustic cape]

That said plenty of GMs won't bother limiting access to the magic item shop, so

It depends

[novel merlin]

I think you can move runes with normal crafting

[surreal basin]

Yeah I don’t believe it’s said u need magic crafting for that

[vocal ember]

Apparently you do

You can transfer runes between two items. This uses the Craft activity, and you must be able to craft magical items.

[clever cobalt]

Weird

Honestly my GMs tend to just handwave it whenever we're in a place with a crafter

"Yeah you got it added in downtime"

[rapid wagon]

Yeah it just seems too demanding in terms of feats, time, and training to really be worthwhile. Great skill to repair, really not great for actually crafting anything

Unless you hand wave stuff

Or make adjustments

[clever cobalt]

Also sometimes it's useful for lore sfuff

[surreal basin]

Yeah tbh if u aren’t doing crafting as a subsystem then it’s still useful as a skill

[rustic cape]

The problem is to some extent the skill feats, which are focused around it as a subsystem

And again, if you don't have access to whatever magic shit you want, it's useful

[surreal basin]

Thats fair

I kinda forget skill feats most of the time since they’re

IMO kinda tacked on

[rustic cape]

Except when they aren't, it's weird

shrugs

[surreal basin]

Even when they aren’t it’s surprisingly often either a thing I think you should be able to do without a feat, or it’s just personally infuriating

Fuck you unified theory

[echo briar]

RAW, you can only ever take the bard archetype

The archetype rules state you can take archetypes listed on page 216 of PC1, which only has the bard archetype

[rustic cape]

heehee

[trim grotto]

full kineticist party would be sick ngl

[thorny berry]

rival team showdown with a full thaumaturge party

though I suppose exemplar possibly has it beat in build versatility now?

[surreal basin]

Semi stupid item ability pitch

So I want a pair of hand wraps that can build up energy to eventually release in a huge fuck super punch or a buff mode

Current stupid idea is that when you have damage negated via hardness or resistances, you mark that damage into a seperate pool that you can release later

Up to a maximum

This is an artifact level item so the complexity isn’t a problem

[rustic cape]

That seems pretty cool

[surreal basin]

The guy who owned them in my lore was famous for like

Literally just exploding his way through city walls

[novel merlin]

Adamantine ki blast?

[wary yoke]

Uuuuuuugh the GM for our upcoming 2E campaign is still on the fence about allowing free archetype

Because he doesn't want players with system mastery overshadowing new players

[thorny berry]

for whatever reason that comes to mind is some weird quicken alternative that 'banks' an action each turn that can can only be used to contribute to a One-Inch/One-Millimeter Punch

[errant roost]

My Lancer brain says "just steal Gunslinger 3" (or thundergod Mjolnir)

[limber comet]

Pathfinder is so fun when a bitch isn't in yo ear going "spellcasters are too weak"

[solar storm]

FWIW I think FA is pretty neutral for who it favors

On the one hand you can make more potent combinations with it and knowing the system well

But on the other hand having more feat slots dilutes the strength of knowing which ones to pick and skip

[limber comet]

Like one of my friends is saying that casters can't be damage dealers

I'm just sat here, absolutely perplexed

[fossil dome]

Magic Missile, brother

Casters have more ST stuff than martials ever will

So less need to be MAP-conscious

[limber comet]

"Oh but at level 5-7 they're locked into being utility only"

[fossil dome]

Sorry, wha?

[limber comet]

That's what he's saying to me

[fossil dome]

Show him the Rank 3 spell list

Show him Magus

[solar storm]

In general casters are not gonna be able to match martials for sustained or single target damage

There’s some exceptions which can keep up but there’s still martials above them

But martials usually suck at AoE at least until very high levels and usually aren’t good at targeting weaknesses

So it sorta balances out on the damage front

[fossil dome]

Yeah

And what's the issue with casters being utility-focussed?

[limber comet]

(I assume it's because he and his players came from 5e and were expecting casters to be the same)

But who knows

[sacred bluff]

5e players need to learn themselves the Tier List

[fossil dome]

"Casters are useless, because they aren't as stupidly OP as in 5e"

Ugh

[limber comet]

Ok now he's saying that throwable bombs can circumvent weaknesses and AoE attacks

[solar storm]

There’s also some talismans which can but those, like bombs, burn money

[fossil dome]

What does he even mean by that?

[limber comet]

I don't know anymore

I think I'm just gonna drop this conversation because I'm getting tired of whining

Shining Kingdoms soonish, yay

Sorry, feel like I killed the mood in chat

[echo briar]

Casters totally suck.

Do you know how many spells pull things in?

Sucking things up is incredible battlefield control

[turbid dagger]

Admittedly I've always chafed with the utility angle
Because when I think of magic I think of a fell incantation to smite someone with a stroke of lightning, not like
Creating some stairs, or letting someone swim better
BUT regardless the idea that all casters are utility only beyond a point is beyond ridiculous

[echo briar]

My spell casters have traditionally been the MVPs

My GM has explicitly stated they make combats harder because of them.

At mid levels, synesthesia, wall of force, and quandary can just solve combats by themselves

Solo boss? Synesthesia. Hoard? Wall of force. Boss with minions? Quandary

[surreal basin]

It’s not nearly the old days but there is some level of gentleman’s agreement I think to like

Not spam some spells like synesthesia or quandary lol

At least in my group

[novel merlin]

Quandary isn't exactly mid level

[surreal basin]

Well true

[novel merlin]

My group just realized synesthesia is good at level 14 lol

Which felt fair in that fight because I hit the monk with quandary and he spent the whole fight trying to solve a rubics cube

[surreal basin]

Yeah it’s really strong

[echo briar]

My GM nerfed it (which is why I used it so much) and it was still stupid good

RAW you can only make 1 check a round, but my GM said they can make 1 check an action

[surreal basin]

Oh, quandary?

Fair

I thought u meant synesthesia for a minute lol

I was like “what the fuck are you talking about”

[echo briar]

But it still at worst wasted an action and denied reactions, and was still regularly wasting an entire turn or more

[surreal basin]

I’ve thought about nerfing synesthesia tbh

But my players were v against the idea and they haven’t like

Spammed it

[novel merlin]

Luckily I'm doing fists of the ruby phoenix so the fights are actually fairly difficult and have a good even spread of mid level enemies

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah FRP is real hard

[craggy thunder]

This is the fourth time my gm has asked me to look at my solarian sheet cuz he thinks my damage is crazy

and this is the fourth time he has gone 'no this is all good, I cannot believe a class does this much damage'

XD

[turbid dagger]

I am having
A very hard time filling out a list for a primal sorceror
Sacred Beasts, Sudden Bolt, and Heal are neat, those are an easy pick for signatures
But what do I do with these other 6 slots

So many of these spells are so niche I can't imagine ever casting them

[echo briar]

lvl 4 I assume

[turbid dagger]

Level 5!

Oh, fireball also yes

[echo briar]

lose the path and gust of wind are evergreen, albatross's curse and loose times arrow are really good support on a list that doesn't have a ton of that

if your level 5 then using a 2nd level slot for tailwind is also very good

[turbid dagger]

Oh lose the path is actually top notch, thanks for pointing that out
Together with Acid Grip that's some vicious shit

[echo briar]

wall of thorns and wall of water are very potent control effects

[turbid dagger]

Minute long cast time on thorns though

Oh wait what

??????????????????????????????

[surreal basin]

No it doesn’t actually take a minute to grow

It’s referencing the minute duration

Just flavor text

[turbid dagger]

Yeah it was phrased real weird
Either way Wall Of Water seems better, since afaik Swim being a different action means they need to stop and spend a whole other action to cross

[surreal basin]

Yep

Now what that dc is, who could say lmao

[turbid dagger]

Oh I assume since its not flowing it's an automatic crit success

As is standard for calm water

[surreal basin]

…. Is that a thing

Oh

Huh

[turbid dagger]

You attempt an Athletics check to move a maximum distance of 10 feet through water. The GM determines the DC based on the turbulence or danger of the water; in most instances of calm water, you get an automatic critical success.

[trail nova]

... this is reminding me of my pf1e build of "we will be using the underwater combat rules and you will like it"

That just aimed to stack the deck by forcing underwater combat penalties and complications on random fights

[eager mountain]

https://platform.polygon.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/01/PZO12008-HC-Battlecry-Cover.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&crop=0,0,100,100&_gl=1*1fziujl*_ga*MTI1MTQ4Mzk1MS4xNzM4NjA3MzYy*_ga_3RRF1V8L1B*MTczODYwNzM2Mi4xLjAuMTczODYwNzM2Mi42MC4wLjA.

Huge man!

[clever cobalt]

Nice

any news regarding it?

aside from, y'know, the cover

[eager mountain]

We are getting giant ancestry

“Jotunborn”

https://platform.polygon.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/01/jotun_iconic_characters_carded.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&crop=0,0,100,100&_gl=1*1pvuiso*_ga*MTI1MTQ4Mzk1MS4xNzM4NjA3MzYy*_ga_3RRF1V8L1B*MTczODYwNzM2Mi4xLjEuMTczODYwNzcxNy42MC4wLjA.

Beeg

[echo briar]

they are extraplaner for some reason

giants are from the universe right?

[glossy ridge]

the faces along with their necks make me laugh

[eager mountain]

“Jotunborn hail from an alternate plane of existence, where they tend to giant beetles whose silk is used to create subdermal, ritualistic markings that glow on command.”

[warped orbit]

there's something to the proportions of these guys that makes me go hmmmm

[eager mountain]

“These are natural protectors and custodians,” Keeley said. “However, with the Godsrain, the War of Immortals, that caused a lot of chaos. So a lot of Jotunborn are coming out to help sort of clean up and they’re finding that they can’t go back home. A lot of them are just trapped in our setting and are getting introduced to the wider world.”

[glossy ridge]

they got small face vibes

[clever cobalt]

Got a source on all of this?

like a blog or something?

[eager mountain]

Blog yeah

https://www.polygon.com/gaming/517505/pathfinder-battlecry-jotun-commander-guardian-release-date-price

[clever cobalt]

Cheliax vs Andoran let's go

[eager mountain]

https://platform.polygon.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/01/PZO12008-Chapter-2-Intro-copy.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&crop=0,3.125,100,93.75&_gl=1*1hzx670*_ga*MTI1MTQ4Mzk1MS4xNzM4NjA3MzYy*_ga_3RRF1V8L1B*MTczODYwNzM2Mi4xLjEuMTczODYwODE2MC40OS4wLjA.

[clever cobalt]

Looks like the Iconics are gonna be a Jotunnborn for a Guardian, and Orc for a Commander

[eager mountain]

My gnome, Alaizia is gonna feel a way about this

[clever cobalt]

how so?

[eager mountain]

She’s from Brastlewark

Her parents live there, it’s a chelaxian held gnome enclave pretty much the front line against Andorran

[clever cobalt]

mhm

[eager mountain]

( also she hates the chelish government

[clever cobalt]

also, this

"WW1 Inspiration" makes me think of a Web of Alliances causing the war to go from a war between Andoran and Cheliax to a War that Everyone will get involved in

also

This sounds like an Anti-Cheliax Campaign

[errant roost]

"potion seller, I require your strongest potion" type face

[clever cobalt]

._. type beat

[fast hill]

gotta do a starfinder 2e game inspired by DRG...

[wary yoke]

Excited for both announcements. And it's a funny parallel to the setting my group plays in, which has the latest international development be an extremely large war

[surreal basin]

I think they probably wanted to make them like

Not just big humans

Proportionally

But yeah it’s a look

[clever cobalt]

yeah IO agree

[trail nova]

... ah damn, these guys look cool, though as an unabashed "fancy human" fan I probably will never play one

[surreal basin]

I mean I’m sure u could also just be a big human lol

[trail nova]

Probably. Big fan of D&D Goliaths

[crystal walrus]

Ah twist my arm

I'll play a warlord or guardian

[clever cobalt]

I'm now thinkiing about the Inner Sea sidepicking

I can easily see Alkenstar being Profiteers and selling to both sides

especially with newly-invented dynamite pyronite

[eager mountain]

Gotta throw it to as many people assss possible

Arms proliferation

( atleast that’s one of the theoretical endings toooooo outlaws)

[trail nova]

Taldor... probably is backing up Andoran, they've got bigger issues with Cheliax

I think one of the books highest on my wishlist is an intrigue book focusing on Taldor-Kelesh international relations, maybe with accompanying metaplot of either rising tensions or a peace treaty.

[eager mountain]

Meanwhile tar baphon is just watching

Like

https://tenor.com/view/good-yes-emperor-palpatine-star-wars-excellent-gif-16144278

[trail nova]

Then Taldor goes “fuck it, new shining crusade, who’s on board” and everyone suddenly remembers that even if Taldor’s mostly the premier soft power, they still have some remarkable military capabilities.

(It’s so funny to me that Taldor isn’t on the list of remarkable naval powers despite incredible shipbuilding recently)

[rustic cape]

It amuses me that one and only one of the women has boobplate (and also somehow makes it more believable)

[clever cobalt]

That's the iconic

If you mean the orc

[carmine egret]

Huh, that's kinda weird

[clever cobalt]

I mean it's hardly unique

[eager mountain]

Same situation with gnomes

[clever cobalt]

Among new ancestries at least

And gnomes yeah

[eager mountain]

Just gnomes are far enough removed from it to feel the cultural pain

[rustic cape]

Oh, two then

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[rustic cape]

I meant the elf on the right

[eager mountain]

The orc is the commander

[clever cobalt]

Ah fair

[echo briar]

Boobplate is a fantasy version of the historical codpiece, which where absolutely used by real knights despite serving no combat advantage

[eager mountain]

The lil orc is the other iconic

[clever cobalt]

Also TIL one of the official art pieces for the Alchemist is a Kholo

[eager mountain]

What really?

[clever cobalt]

Yep

[eager mountain]

Nice

[clever cobalt]

Alchemist Archetype art specifically

[eager mountain]

Face of a friend

[clever cobalt]

Reminds me of Smiledog tbh

[eager mountain]

Beeg grin

[wary yoke]

Y'know, the theory that the Necromancer and Runesmith classes are for a Nex v Geb grudge war makes even more sense now

[clever cobalt]

I was wondering what Class Iconic a Kholo would fit as

[rustic cape]

It just amuses me that the two women on the left have normal plate, and the orc and the elf have boobplate

I am not expressing mockery or an opinion about boobplate

[clever cobalt]

I feel an Animist could work

As well as a Thaumaturge

[echo briar]

necromancer

[clever cobalt]

Also valid

I do kinda hope we get a Kholo iconic at some point

But I'm biased

[rustic cape]

Necromancer would fit

[clever cobalt]

I feel like the Necromancer iconic is probably gonna be an Undead of some sort

But heres hoping

Kholo are basically consumate pragmatists

Who worship their ancestors via their bones and whatnot

[rustic cape]

You know what would be fun? Kholo wizard

Like as an iconic

OH

[echo briar]

I also feel like they could do something to soften their image, like how the inventor is a half orc. They could make a Anchor root inspired iconic bard or other spell caster

[clever cobalt]

Whats your idea?

And yeah agreed

Or the new Orc Commander :v

[rustic cape]

Kholo thaum for a class archetype that makes Thaum about Int

[clever cobalt]

Could be neat

I do feel like the Kholo Ancestry would work better as a -Cha instead of a -Wis

If that makes sense

Given they're canonically offputting and also pragmatic

[rustic cape]

(Kholo thaum in general seems fitting but)

[clever cobalt]

I played a Kholo Thaum in Stolen Fate

It was fun

[limber comet]

I'm

I really like Jotunborn so far

[true delta]

What's a good weapon for a level 2 rogue, thieves' racket, who is not super optimised? She's got a sickle for roleplaying reasons. Gourd leshy with quickdraw, trapfinder and the feat which renders enemies off-guard to her if they haven't gone yet on the first turn.

[rustic cape]

Thief practically optimizes itself, tbh

[turbid dagger]

I feel like the necro iconic HAS to be the crazy scythe lady in the playtest
The art is A Lot

[rustic cape]

Honestly? A good old shortsword is hard to go wrong with

If there's a Versatile Bludgeoning/Slashing agile finesse weapon that would probably be the king of kings

Since those are the superior physical damage types

Doesn't look like there is though

So like

Anything bludgeoning or slashing, agile, finesse, preferably 1d6

[limber comet]

Could also be a battlecry situation where the ancestry isn't revealed yet

[limber comet]

I meant to reply to this lmao

[echo briar]

reach can be good instead of agile

Dancers spear kinda has agile with backswing and sweep

[warped orbit]

Dancer's Spear and Elven Branch Spear are very good for Thief

[echo briar]

Also, there is an unannounced AP between the mythical AP and hell breakers that was announced today

This is the first time they have announced the APs out of order

[clever cobalt]

Could be Hellbreakers is a 6 part AP

Unless it releases later

[echo briar]

Nah

Jacob’s confirmed there is an unannounced AP

[limber comet]

Hopefully it's an 11-20 so we don't go four 1-10 aps

[rustic cape]

Yeh true

[clever cobalt]

Neat

[clever cobalt]

Hellbreakers at the very least starts at 1

Though tbh if there was ever a 1-20 AP again, I feel hellbreakers is valid

At least going by the name and assumed content

[limber comet]

I doubt it, they same happy with 3 parters

Seem*

[clever cobalt]

I know

[echo briar]

I feel like it depends on what the story needs

[clever cobalt]

And yeah that

I just feel if it's "go after Thrune" a 1-20 or at least 11-20 works best

But yeah, depends on the content

[surreal basin]

Yeah apperantly people like

Only play/review 1-10 adventures

Or the first 3 books in 1-20s

Is what they’ve said before

I remember that’s why they said they were only gonna be doing 1-20s v rarely going forward

[limber comet]

I mean it's possible but who knows

[turbid dagger]

This deeply amuses me

[clever cobalt]

Makes me wonder if we'll see that

Probably not but

[rustic cape]

AreJotunborn like the big blue guy on the cover?

[rotund geode]

Yeah

[clever cobalt]

Chad chin

[craggy thunder]

well, codpieces were born out of groin protection, then were made to look like dicks as a fashion statement

They still did that job

I agree with your point about boobplate tho

[rustic cape]

I like their weird proportions

[craggy thunder]

People always compared boobplate to ab armor and I was like 'no that's wrong cuz the abs aren't about them being hot it's about them being strong and that's an important difference'

[clever cobalt]

Same

[rustic cape]

And a lot of combat armor afawct didn’t have the outrageous codpieces, it was parade armor where they showed up more

A lot of surviving period armor is parade stuff

I’m mostly fine with boobplate if it doesn’t look glued on

But it usually looks painted on, which is 100% undesirable

And also mostly not feasible

Also armor makes you pretty top-heavy as is if we’re being strict

But mostly there’s no need to

My greater contention is that even today, 90% of the time when I see boobplate in fantasy art, I know why it’s there, and it’s not a reason I like

[craggy thunder]

oh same

[frank crystal]

Big ass chins

[rustic cape]

They don't have cleft chins!

[frank crystal]

Also what are these for?

Are they a new ancestry or just art for some NPCs?

[silver geyser]

It is Jotunkin, a new ancestry

[clever cobalt]

new ancestry

Jotunkin

[frank crystal]

Cool

I assume another large ancestry?

[clever cobalt]

presumably

[echo briar]

Theory: the Jotunblood might be from Axis

They come from a different plane, and they are guardians and custodians

[turbid dagger]

My first guess had been the ethereal plane with their blue skin and the funky silkbeasts

[solar storm]

My guess was Galorian or something

[echo briar]

They said they are from a different plane

https://2e.aonprd.com/Sources.aspx?ID=232 WotI is on nethys

They are slowly but surely catching up

Is there anything exempt some AP stuff they’re missing?

[fossil dome]

Don't think so?

Oh, man

How many classes are we up to now?

[echo briar]

APs should be out shortly then. They aren’t that big. Unless curtains call introduced a 300 page subsystem or something

[surreal basin]

WAIT divine mysteries

and theeeen they’re caught up

Also

Looking at the WOI armors

Guys please stop making new armors

Please just add more specific magic armors, we don’t need more base sets, please

[limber comet]

Yeahhhhh

[solar storm]

“Galorian” being a like parallel plane golarion sorry that wasn’t clear I was very sleepy

[echo briar]

they need like, more bulwork level traits. traits that really change how the armor works

[surreal basin]

Shit like laminar and flexible ain’t doin it

[echo briar]

light, ac +1, Dex cap +3, Warding

Warding: you may use your Int or Dex to calculate your ac. If you use int, the AC bonus is still limited by this armors Dex cap.```

[rustic cape]

X-stat-to-Y-bonus does not seem to be a slope they want to go down, beyond Thief

[echo briar]

bulwark is essentially that

[rustic cape]

And bulwark, yeah

I don't know that it needs to be a rigorously avoided as it is

But it's clear that it is being avoided

I could see something like the above working within the current framework given the lower total AC though

[rotund geode]

Random thing but ya know what would be really cool? An Expert Book

Like for that Rogue/Investigator/Swashbuckler sphere of classes as opposed to normal martials

With like a bunch of new skill feats

I’m not sure what setting layer occurrence one would use to justify such a book

But ya know since we have gotten an occult book, a divine book, an arcane book, a primal book, and will soon get a martial book

I feel like experts deserve their own spotlight book

I’m not sure what would be fun ideas for new experts, or if you would even want to add new experts

[echo briar]

instead of a direct expert book, make it a book based on something that really helps experts, like an intrigue book

Magic of secrets.

[rustic cape]

XD

I think one of the things that impedes that, and one of PF2e's weakpoints, is that it doesn't seem to know exactly what it wants skill feats to be

And to some extent that liminality means they can be a couple of different things but

throws up hands

They feel a little weird sometimes

[trail nova]

Political Intruigue and soft-power nonsense.

[frank crystal]

It doesn’t help they bounce between “most niche effect humanly possible” to “makes or breaks entire build types”

[trail nova]

I agree. I kind of feel like general feats and skill feats are doing very similar things.

[rustic cape]

One thing that bugs me is you'll get stuff like, "oh, yeah that actively-used, two-action skill feat is really good (for a skill feat)" but ... when exactly do I have two actions to spare for a skill feat

Like religion has these really strong skill feat actions that I cannot imagine ever having time to activate

[echo briar]

I feel like they should get rid of general feats, and shake up skill feats quite a bit

all skill feats should be battle medicine levels

[steel blade]

there's only one 2-action religion feat though? reveal true name
only like 7 general/skill feats with 2 or 3 action cost

[rustic cape]

Ugh, what am I thinking of?

Maybe I am thinking of one-action stuff

[eager mountain]

Golarion is golarian becuase I keep switching the a and o ‘s around all the time

[solar storm]

I tried changing all the vowels to make it clearer haha

[craggy thunder]

WEYYYYYY!!!

great success

[rustic cape]

Everyone who has not had a chance to look at Animist should look at Animist

My favorite class in PF2e

[echo briar]

The only problem with the animist is it’s subclasses

[limber comet]

Animist is peak

[surreal basin]

?

[echo briar]

oh huh, nethys just doesn't have practices

[trail nova]

Basically, Litturgist is both a lot stronger, and more interesting, compared to the others

[echo briar]

Liturgist is comically better than the others, seer is comically worse than the others, medium sucks at lower levels but gets very good at higher levels (but not better then Liturgist) and shaman is kinda just ok

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah wasn’t that also the case in the playtest

[echo briar]

shaman is the only well designed subclass, because most of liturgist should just be part of the base class

yes, but the impressive bit is that its now for mostly unrelated reasons.

[surreal basin]

Incredible

Yeah Paizo has imo always struggled with caster subclasses

[echo briar]

It's never this bad though

sure, maestro is the best, but its not too good. plus if you need to take the best option, you can get it at level 2. Wizard schools are all equally poor, and you have at least 3 real choices for thesis. and none of the others are even close

I can't believe this is an official product

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6y8kb?Celebrate-Valentines-Day-with-Pathfinder-NPC#discuss

[surreal basin]

Incredible

[rustic cape]

Part of the trouble is that Liturgist is what them not struggling with caster subclasses looks like

But the other ones are

Liturgist is exciting

More than just power

Liturgist makes me go "this is so cool"

[trail nova]

Yeah. Liturgist is very interesting in a way most pf2e material doesn't feel to me

[rustic cape]

It's arguably worse because they made sustaining dance into a subclass feature instead of a Feat That Everyone Will Take

Before you had The Subclass That Can Change Apparitions Mid-Combat and The Subclass Which Is Insubstantial

Now you have The Subclass Which Does Backflips While Casting Spells, The Subclass Which Eventually Gets Two Primary Apparitions At A Time, and The Other Two.

[warped orbit]

I do very much think making Sustaining Dance a subclass feature was a mistake

it just feels so extremely important to the class, with how important sustaining is for you due to vessel spells

[limber comet]

Seer is ass but the other 3 are pretty neat

[rustic cape]

My only other complaint about Animist is that Circle of Spirits used to have the infinitely cooler name Apparition's Whirl

Broke: "I use Circle of Spirits"
Woke, bespoke, and Smoke: "I use Apparition's Whirl"

[turbid dagger]

What astonishes me about Animist is that in the year of our lord 2024 Paizo decided to release a subclass whose Thing is 'you get flat numerical bonuses against undead and no one else'

[trim grotto]

What are some effects that let me make clones of myself

Only thing that comes to mind is mirror from thaum

[fossil dome]

Finally. L5R Crab Shugenja, the class

[turbid dagger]

Like this is some 1e shit, huh

[fossil dome]

Appropriately Flavoured Summoner

[rustic cape]

If you want mirror-image type stuff, uh ... animist XD

[limber comet]

Seer is just not good man, it sucks

I feel like seer should've just been cut ngl

The apparitions should be the big draw

[rustic cape]

I think all the animist subclasses should have sustain shenanigans

[limber comet]

Actually wait

You're so right

[rustic cape]

Animist is The Sustain Class, even more than Witch

[surreal basin]

Wow yeah Jesus seer sucks

That’s insane

It wouldn’t even be fun in an undead focused game cause it’s JUST incorporeal undead

Those bonuses are so insanely specific

Also

I’m really peeved that this thread was the second thing I saw after just looking up PF2e on google after AoN

Like I know it’s an algorithm but fucking seriously

[fossil dome]

Uggggh

Now, I know "don't post stuff to get angy"

But I would like a read

[trim grotto]

No fucking way does that class do everything

[rustic cape]

One of the vessel spells is regenerating mirror image — starts with just one image, gets another each time you sustain

And breaking the images can cause retaliation damage

(Up to a maximum number of images, to be clear)

[fossil dome]

So just Dusk Wing?

[rustic cape]

I do not actually remember Dusk Wing’s deal

I think it’s the evil clown apparition

[fossil dome]

Stealth Diyhed stuff

[rustic cape]

So not mines, but conceptually yeah, similar. The vibe is that these are fragmentary mirror images and when a foe breaks one it sort of shatters, dealing mental damage

Note if all your images break, the spell ends, so it needs ramp time for durability

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=2142

This

[echo briar]

The crazy thing is its not good in season of ghosts, which is very ghost heavy

because even an AP with the word ghost in the name does not have enough ghosts to make it worth it.

[craggy thunder]

huh

Exemplar is under common classes on aon

prolly cuz they don't have a rare category lmao

[frank crystal]

Yah it’s kinda unnecessary lol

Shit does the list of ikons for exemplar not specify what weapon type a weapon ikon works for?

That’s so annoying

Oh it does specify it’s usage

In the preview when you have your mouse over an option

Animist also just doesn’t have its practices yet

Only it’s apparitions

[frank crystal]

Also am I reading noble branch’s transcendence right?

It basically adds the max damage from the damage die+any striking rune bonuses to your strike?

[clever cobalt]

I don't think it's max damage

it's just the die rolled again without any modifiers

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[echo briar]

It’s still extremely good.

[frank crystal]

Oh yah that’s insane for 1 action

I was just confused by the wording

[echo briar]

It’s like mathematically better than titan wreckers transcendence

At least at like 70% of levels

With 0 chance of failure

[frank crystal]

Yah I do wish titanbreaker was better

Better power attack is fine but there’s a lot of really strong stuff in exemplar

[clever cobalt]

Exemplar is pretty fun

I'm playing one currently

[frank crystal]

And that’s just kinda underwhelming

[clever cobalt]

I like Gleaming Blade

aka "Dual Slice but with a greatsword"

[frank crystal]

I have an exemplar player in my game and he’s having a great time

[frank crystal]

It’s so funny

Also speaking of, what weapon ikon would y’all go with for a dual weapon exemplar build?

[clever cobalt]

PRobably Gleaming Blade actually

with that one Dual Wielding feat

[frank crystal]

Oh there’s a feat for it?

Oh twin stars right

Can’t believe I forgot about it when I’m basing a build around it

[turbid dagger]

I think as a whole Shadow Sheath might be best, once you get Mated Birds

[frank crystal]

What’s that?

[turbid dagger]

It's a later feat that gives you this https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/pathfinder2e/feats/mated-birds-in-paired-flight-rm

[echo briar]

Dual thrown weapons

[turbid dagger]

Er

This

I have taken benedryl me tired

[frank crystal]

Oh fuck

Dual weapon strike for throwers

+they’re offguard and take extra damage?

That’s amazing

[warped orbit]

Mated Birds is really good

and there's other throwing support too

[frank crystal]

Hmm, how should make the dual air pistol build work?

[surreal basin]

Exemplar ration

*question

If I took, say, red gold mortality

Would I get the immanence of it AND my weapon immenance at the same time?

Both benefits?

[frank crystal]

I believe so

[rustic cape]

Yes

[warped orbit]

yes

all immanences of an ikon are active at the same time

[frank crystal]

So the reap the fields transcendence is worded kinda kinda weirdly

It has to be done after a normal strike right?

Because it doesn’t mention that anywhere

[warped orbit]

hmmm
Because it calls out the action, I think it does need to be the Strike action specifically

[frank crystal]

Ohh

Must be a mistake on AON then

Ok second question, would y’all say you could do the bloodgorger scythe root in blood action after the mortal harvest transcendence?

[warped orbit]

Requirements Your previous action was a successful Strike with the mortal harvest
this is what I'm seeing

which, while not entirely clear, would make me say its the action probably

[frank crystal]

Yah just a mistake on AON then

[warped orbit]

since they both require your last action to be a Strike, I don't think you can trigger both

[frank crystal]

Couldn’t reap the harvest count as a strike though?

[turbid dagger]

There's something to be said for metastrikes not counting for actions that require your previous action to be a Strike, due to subordinate action stuff
But that's wicked dumb and makes all those latter abilities bad because most martials should be metastriking as often as they can
So I've always just
Ignored that

[surreal basin]

Yeah same

[rustic cape]

The whole "there's Strikes and then there's Strikes" is frequently a bit awkward tbh

[trail nova]

Somehow Pazio managed to make it worse than 1e

(As a spheres enjoyer, the mess of "attack action", "vital strike empowered attack" and "Attack Action" is fun)

[rustic cape]

Yeah, in my own brief dev work on a 3.5 heartbreaker, sorting out the language of attacks was a significant hurdle

[trail nova]

Also an attack made as part of an Attack Action that doesn't get to be boosted by vital strike and such. Spheres of Might has some fun and weird cans of worms.

[rustic cape]

Were I in Paizo's shoes, I would probably do something like eliminate the Attack trait, create a Strike trait, and make "attack" the generic term for, you know, making an attack roll

[trail nova]

Yeah, same.

Or maybe have something like a "basic attack"

That's just the old strike.

So the old strike action just reads "Make a basic attack with a weapon you are wielding"

[surreal basin]

Tbh I just like some stuff like “you last action was a strike” use meta strikes

Just cause it’s intuitive to me and hardly game breaking

[wooden orbit]

Did y'all see the Jotunnborn?

[turbid dagger]

Yeeeeees
They're cool
Awoken if they lifted, down to being from a weird sidereal space

[rustic cape]

Yeah, I think in some ways the mechanical issue is that "metastrike" is clearly a thing in the game, but it's not defined in the rules text

And if it were an actual term the game could reference it

[surreal basin]

[rustic cape]

Easy enough to fix at an individual table but

Really hard to address without a system-level adjustment in the book itself

[echo briar]

I am waiting for meta strike to be the main feature of a new class.

because that definitely sounds like the name of a gish mechanic

[surreal basin]

okay it doesn't say it but

you can presumably instead of firing both barrels at once, fire each barrel of a double barrel rifle individually

[warped orbit]

yes, that's how you normally use it

firing both together just increases the damage die and fatal by one step

[surreal basin]

coolio

[upbeat ridge]

Is there any way for forensics investigator to use int for medicine checks out of combat?

[frank crystal]

So with Jotunkin, I never really paid attention to them but how are giants in Golarion?

[surreal basin]

Jotunkin aren’t really traditional giants!!!!!

[silver geyser]

But to address the question: Giants vary over the world of course, but one of the very important things is that their knowledge does serve as a fundamental building block of modern wizardry, thanks to Thassilon!

Annnnd after the death of First King Xin, the repayment they go for that was the Runelords enslaving them.