Pathfinder

[rustic cape]

Mechanically it is absolutely a tower-defense class

That doesn't mean those mechanics are unsuitable to communicate a particular fiction

[wary yoke]

"This is the best a player class can do" is unsatisfying to me

Especially when it is mechanically distinct from existing undead-related options

No void healing, no unholy tag

Again, it seems like a cool class, but in every aspect except the lore, it's the kiddie version of necromancy

[rustic cape]

Not what I said

[errant roost]

does missing the unholy tag have mechanical implications?

[frank crystal]

I think primarily when dealing with celestials or fiends

Like angels get extra damage to stuff with the unholy tag

[wary yoke]

And it sets thralls apart from other undead

I've given permission for one of my players to use the Necromancer playtest to make a character for the Beginner Box module, so I'll see some interaction with it this saturday

[rustic cape]

Only insofar as things have abilities that interact with it

[carmine egret]

I think you just have a specific goalpost in mind that isn't intrinsic to the concept

And that's fine but it doesn't make this class "kiddie"

[wary yoke]

Unless it's one of two specific thralls, any monster can delete the thralls no matter their damage type with a third action strike

[carmine egret]

And?

[wary yoke]

While a real necromancer can, y'know, drown someone in skeletons they can't damage effectively.

[rustic cape]

There is a focus spell for exacly that

Granted it's called Zombie Horde, not Skeleton Horde

But also that seems like an extremely specific vision of what a real necromancer is

[frank crystal]

whats a good NPC statblock for a level 4-6 witch?

[carmine egret]

Yeah that's my stance

The secret is there are no real necromancers

Or wizards, etc, but that's besides the point

[surreal basin]

Actually there’s already a class for this called wizard

You take the create undead ritual and the summon undead spell :p

[wary yoke]

NPCs

[carmine egret]

I could easily say that just means PC necromancers are the "real" ones and NPCs are juiced-up aberrations

[wary yoke]

The GM can say that a necromancer is starting trouble and sending hordes of undead

I just really hate divides like that

[carmine egret]

Well I got over them when 4E came out

Classes are an abstraction

There's no such thing as a Fighter

[wary yoke]

My problem is that a cleric of Urgathoa who dedicated themselves to the bit is legitimately a better necromancer

And closer to what NPCs do

[carmine egret]

Again, just based on personal ideas about what a "good necromancer" is

The word doesn't even mean raising the dead, necromancy refers to communicating with dead spirits

Doctor Orpheus is a necromancer and he doesn't do any of this stuff

[wary yoke]

Tar-Baphon, Geb

Doing What They Do

And I'm sure dozens of other modules

[carmine egret]

Listen, this isn't going to go anywhere

[rustic cape]

I get that, and to some degree I think this is a more fundamental quibble with PF2e than it is with this class in particular

You're hardly the only person I know who is irritated by the "PCs =/= NPCs" modeling of the universe in this game and in others

And I respect that as a position

But I do feel this trait is somewhat intrinsic to PF2e

[wary yoke]

My main thing is that, again, other classes do it better

And ARE actually equivalent

And there is otherwise no distinction made

[echo briar]

The thing is, NPC necromancers don’t actually make the undead any more than PC necromancers. Like look at the NPC stat blocks. You will not see any ability to make undead other than spells and maybe something equivalent to (but different from)the PC necromancer

NPCs get undead via GM fiat and narrative necessity

[wary yoke]

That cleric of undeath might not outperform a Necromancer in combat, but it will be very close to an NPC necromancer in combat.

[rustic cape]

Then isn't that niche already covered?

I think necromancer is very specifically for people who have the fantasy of summoning a horde with which they control the battlefield, adapted to not destroy action economy

Which is an untouched niche

And like I personally know someone who tries to play that type of necromancer in every game, and was put off by PF's poor options for it

This is a specific fantasy that people have in terms of play

If that makes sense?

I think, fwiw, PF2e often leans into "this class is for specific people" and personally I think that's to its betterment

But, again, I understand the aesthetic objection

[wary yoke]

I mean, even if a PC necromancer does actually use the same resources, if they want to create and control a banshee or something, it is completely unlike everything else the class has access to.

[echo briar]

I cannot find any NPC necromancer stat block that actually has a way of creating undead outside of a normal spell. Not the NPC named necromancer (which is based on the wizard subclass) nor in any of the lichs. Some probably exist, but I can’t find them

[rustic cape]

I guess they could throw on a "you and your thralls can, at your option at character creation, be unholy if you really want"

[wary yoke]

I'm not saying it's a bad class, I rather like the class, it's just that it's mechanically divergent from existing mechanics for undead and should either be presented as something different, or should get options to interface with existing undead stuff.

[rustic cape]

I could see that as something to submit a playtest remark about

[silver geyser]

I will simply say the mechanics for former Undead Creation/Control were actively unbalanced in a way that's bad for playing the game

[echo briar]

It is impressive how little undead creating ability’s NPCs apparently have. It really does seem like they actually use the create undead ritual like everyone else. Because they have nothing innate

[silver geyser]

To go for the banshee example, you couldn't make them with the presented options in PF1e, you have to find and control one. In fact, getting rules for intentionally creating Undead isn't that common

Or when they do exist, they're either locked behind high level play or require a ton of hoops to jump through

For NPCs, you don't really need mechanics for creating undead, you need narrative

Could a magic person make 'em? Yeah, sure.

But it can also happen because of a place having rancid vibes

[stuck bane]

PC-NPC parity in terms of narrative potential is purely illusory. The gm can always make stuff up to justify the story the want to play through that goes outside of mechanics designed by the developers. Npc inventors, narratively, can introduce world-altering new technologies. There aren’t any mechanics for that, and trying to make satisfying ones would be difficult. So of course PC inventors won’t have any mechanics for that either

[rustic cape]

Illusions can be important, though

It's an aesthetic sensibility first and foremost

But that's not irrelevant, I think

Personally it doesn't matter to me but I understand it as a preference

[stuck bane]

They can be, but it’s important to recognize when trying to keep one up is more detrimental than useful

[rustic cape]

Yeah, it just depends on what they're trying to do

[wary yoke]

One of my players is bringing a goblin sailor Exemplar to my Beginner Box game

His name is "Riff Raft"

[steel blade]

perfect, no notes

[frank crystal]

It’s kinda weird how like

Weak

Orcs are

For a very martial focused society, it’s kinda weird their commanders are only level 2

Their “veterans” are as strong as their basic warriors

[wary yoke]

I expect some more when the NPC book drops

[frank crystal]

would make sense

[wary yoke]

Though even level 2 seems low, I'd expect orcs to be a bit higher in the threat pyramid

[frank crystal]

yah exactly

a basic captain of the guard is level 6

and they arent even like, a military soldier

[surreal basin]

Well I mean

It’s also kinda irrelevant

An orc captain of the guard would probably just use the captain of the guard statblock
Stuff like “goblin warrior” and “orc commander” is always p like

Abstract

[frank crystal]

I mean yah but it is weird when Orcs do have like, a gimmick

Ferocity is pretty much exclusive to them, at least on the NPC side, and yah it’s not the biggest thing but it doe’s differentiate them from a lot of other early game NPC statblocks

Obviously you can give it to anyone you want but that does change the statblock and probably requires some slight stat modifications to keep it on level

[carmine egret]

I've generally considered orcs to be like, a Level 2-5 baddie

[echo briar]

Michael Sayre no longer works for Paizo

[clever cobalt]

Huh, wonder why

Did something happen?

[echo briar]

He also deleted his Reddit and twitter account, but still has his blue sky up

[clever cobalt]

Yeah something happened

[echo briar]

Does that mean anything? Who knows.

[clever cobalt]

Dunno what but

Probably

[wary yoke]

Oof. I have a lot of 3rd party stuff he's written

[trail nova]

I know some 1e 3pp Devs who had really bad experiences dealing with him, but he apparently was less nasty at Pazio, and also their experiences were mostly just him being a curmudgeon, rather than anything super terrible.

[wary yoke]

I'm a big fan of his Akashic stuff, most I heard was some differing design opinions

[balmy orchid]

Whossat

[wary yoke]

Sayre? Came to Paizo from the 1E 3PP scene, and worked a lot on PF2E, including writing the Exemplar.

[surreal basin]

I mean if they don’t say anything I’m not gonna assume it was like

Because he did something

Wouldn’t be surprised if he just got fired over something and deleted his twitter and Reddit to not constantly get pathfinder questions

I don’t think there’s any real need to be uncharitable

Given WOI just released, maybe he left to work on his own stuff, or because he disagreed with the direction 2e is going or something

[turbid dagger]

Ye
Not too put too fine a point on it but
Not every sudden RPG departure has to be a Waks

[thorny berry]

the paizo statement being about respecting his privacy to me says dealing with personal stuff

I imagine it would have been a bit more clipped if he'd done something or something like that

[balmy orchid]

I mean respecting his privacy is something you need to tell the internet about fucking everything lately

[surreal basin]

Apperantly some people said he was recently tweeting about being super stressed out

Which is g understandable

*v

[sacred bluff]

I did not have a great experience working with him but I wish him the best of luck in life

[echo briar]

https://www.facebook.com/paizo/posts/pfbid034NjuUgnMdr5ta45HGy8nr1mSdZrzFuEbRDfK9aXjCNweRU9muRJxYpTBg9T3PVazl?comment_id=585474120554280&reply_comment_id=1237854730850417

errata on the 16th

The fall errata is coming 5 days before the winter solstice. Still technically fall, but wow that’s close

[sinful gyro]

Huh, that's quick errata

[echo briar]

I mean, it’s probably for pc2

[light gyro]

maybe its bad form to stew over your players' strategies but
WHY ARE YOU TRYING ASSURANCE ON KNOWLEDGE CHECKS AGAINST 17TH LEVEL SOLO ENCOUNTERS! WE'RE ON MARS WHAT MADE YOU THINK THIS WAS A COMMON CREATURE!

[sacred bluff]

Assurance feels so fucking bad

Rogue in our Abomination Vaults game took Assurance for the lockpicking skill and it did sweet fuck all

[light gyro]

assurance athletics isnt terrible i guess

[worthy stump]

it has some good use cases, but you definitely don't wanna be using it against tough challenges

[silver geyser]

It works a treat for Medicine

[worthy stump]

assurance athletics and medicine, yeah. MAP-less maneuvers against mooks as a third action, and guaranteed treat wounds at certain DCs

[silver geyser]

It's a good litmus test on Recall Knowledge

Would never use it for locks because those are way too variable

[rustic cape]

Assurance medicine is handy for the guarantee

[true delta]

Heya! Has anyone got a nifty class guide for rogues? Ideally in some visual format. My least mechanically inclined player plays a leshy rogue. She lives being a cute, little pumpkin but the requirements of the class have been making combats frustrating for her.

[rustic cape]

What level is she?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jksJ0jkRNdQ1r6veBdDpYY-4wuBRTsLmQlVMIX_j27U/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.9lqx78nvinns This is pretty good

RPGBot guides kinda suck

[true delta]

Just level 2 so far. Thanks a lot for the resource!

[rustic cape]

One thing (which Tarondor also says): the combination of Gang Up (6th) and Opportune Backstab (8th) is extremely powerful since it will let her get off a sneak attack without MAP when an ally hits an enemy with a melee attack.

It's good enough that it is often considered the default pick

[warped orbit]

Opportune Backstab is nuts

It's so strong

Especially if you can get reach, you just have an extreme amount of threat projection

Put Preparation on top, and you're cooking at 3 full bonus Strikes per round

And Gang Up even helps your allies too now

[rustic cape]

If you can't grab Gang Up for whatever reason you probably want to grab Mobility at 2nd

Maybe retrain it out at 12th if you go that far

[warped orbit]

Rogues in general are kinda nutty tbh

Just really strong

[rustic cape]

Doubled skill feats is a lot

[worthy stump]

Doubled skill increases too

Rogues have a lot going for them

[frank crystal]

So my players are currently in a harsh sandstorm ridden desert inside of sand divers

And I’m thinking I could actually potentially threaten them with some kinda shitty enemies they’re far above now

Because even if they can beat the enemies easily, their sand divers are significantly less durable

And if one or both breaks, we’ll then they’re stuck in the middle of the desert

[frank crystal]

I hope with the guns and gears remaster we get some new martial capacity weapons

In particular a good one handed one would really improve the build I wanna do

[frozen hatch]

Thoughts on Serpent's Skull vs Mummy's Mask?

[echo briar]

I’m glad they stopped naming every AP (thing)’s (object)

[worthy stump]

Never played the former, and only a few sessions of the latter. An Egyptian dungeon diving romp is always fun though

[clever cobalt]

When does the magical school book come out?

[frank crystal]

Didn’t it already come out?

It’s strength of one thousand

[clever cobalt]

No, not the AP

It's the Lost Onens book I think?

About magic schools on Golarion

[worthy stump]

Oh, Rival Schools or something, yeah

I think it’s a next year release

[steel blade]

rival academies, currently scheduled for march 5, 2025

[clever cobalt]

nice

[frank crystal]

Ah sorry

[clever cobalt]

no worries

[frank crystal]

If that’s the case, I am super excited for that

Especially since it’ll probably come with some new magic options

I’m hoping for some new sorc bloodlines

I’ve been kinda struggling to find one I 100% want for my build

[frank crystal]

Alright, today I gotta prep for tomorrow by making a random encounter sheet

Rn I’ve got dune bandits, some sorta monster attack, the storm they’re in increasing or decreasing in intensity, some friendly travelers and finding ruins for ideas

I kinda want this to be 2 rolls, one to determine the storms strength and one to determine what they encounter

[surreal basin]

That makes sense

Could just make a seperate table with “storm decreases, storm increases, storm stays stable”

[frank crystal]

Yah that’s my current idea

[surreal basin]

ALSO

[frank crystal]

Yes?

[surreal basin]

I have a boss fight with a guy in a psionically powered mech suit coming up
Crowdfund me some abilities chat
This thing is like… starfinder tier tech

It’s more like power armor actually, like somewhere in the realm of lancer size 1 or 1/2

[frank crystal]

Large turn requiring charge up laser cannon

+a way to make walls to box players in for said cannon

[surreal basin]

That’s not a bad one yeah

[crystal walrus]

Debris Fling

[echo briar]

I was going though SoT, and 3 more bestiaries confirmed?

[sacred bluff]

[frank crystal]

question, what is this?

https://2e.aonprd.com/Vehicles.aspx?ID=70

no description is given

[stuck bane]

Sounds like a long-legged walking vehicle

Didn’t notice any special movement types called out, but it can use the stride action to cross 30 ft gaps

[heavy fulcrum]

from the book

[frank crystal]

Oh dear

[heavy fulcrum]

hmm?

[frank crystal]

Nah just that design is right in the uncanny valley

[heavy fulcrum]

oh yeah, its very funky

but i think thats the idea

[frank crystal]

Absolutely

[heavy fulcrum]

but its not like half the art is really canon anyway

[frank crystal]

They knew what they were doing with that engine face thing

Also are there any rules for like, weaponized vehicles?

[heavy fulcrum]

hmm?

some of them have weapons/attacks and you can just crash into stuff (the Collision stat and the Run Over action)

[frank crystal]

Yah I meant ones with weapon attacks

Also good to know

[heavy fulcrum]

though its important to read Run Over carefully because it actually has two effects

[frank crystal]

Oh?

[heavy fulcrum]

you can run over creatures two sizes smaller than your vehicle, dealing the collision damage on a basic save

and you can also (including simultaneously) ram targets one size smaller than your vehicle or larger, and if a rammed target takes damage so does your vehicle and you, no save

[frank crystal]

Huh

Neat

I might do that to my players

[heavy fulcrum]

doing the first against smaller creatures is very effective because its part of very long movement, double speed in a straight line, so its a line attack and movement at the same time

[frank crystal]

Oh movement in vehicles is always in a straight line?

[heavy fulcrum]

no, the run over is

[frank crystal]

Ohhh

Makes sense

[heavy fulcrum]

regular movement (the Drive action) is more complicated

since it's based on how many actions you spend and the result of your piloting check

[frank crystal]

Oh driving always requires a check?

[heavy fulcrum]

yes, though its fairly generous for non-combat situations

[frank crystal]

How so?

[heavy fulcrum]

if you arent in combat, you shouldn't be using these rules, you just repeatedly use the single action move and avoid crit fails

[frank crystal]

Ah, so as long as you have some skill in crafting and aren’t driving something far above you, you should be fine

[frank crystal]

Also yah I’ve got no plans to make my players make thousands of crafting checks for the distance they’re traveling

[heavy fulcrum]

or the relevant skill, most vehicles have multiple options

[frank crystal]

I think the sand crawlers they’re in only have crafting

[heavy fulcrum]

the sand diver?

[frank crystal]

Yah

[heavy fulcrum]

its also got driving lore

but, yknow, lore

[frank crystal]

Ah yah, though I don’t think any of them have that

What background gives driving lore anyway?

[warped orbit]

Don't know if any do specifically

Trick Driver gives it for sure

But you can also just take a Lore as a skill increase

Or Additional Lore

[frank crystal]

Yah guess so

It just feels so bad to do that tbh

A thrown weapon with finesse can still use dex for their thrown attack right?

[warped orbit]

You in fact have to use Dex for thrown attacks

Since they are ranged attacks

[frank crystal]

Also wait all thrown attacks?

Oh wait right

Yah I remember now

Guess finesse doesn’t really matter for thrown builds

All thrown weapons are sorta finesse already

Probably just gonna use a chakram then for a build I’m working on

It’s as strong a trident but I prefer bleed to clumsy 1

[errant roost]

plus it's such an iconic, silly weapon

[frank crystal]

Weren’t chakrams actually used at some point?

[fast hill]

what's a good background for a battle wizard? I mean this as in, a good background for a wizard who was also a soldier

Think warrior is my current pick, since con is good for wizarding

[errant roost]

that's fair. I'm more thinking about the videogame-y, Xena-y versions of chakrams that bounce around and fly back to your hand

[plucky snow]

Warrior fits "former soldier" best I think

[frank crystal]

fair enough

[fast hill]

yea

I initially thought it was str/dex choice, which made me hesitant

but it's actually pretty good, though capitalising on intimidating glare might be a bit MAD

ig it makes it nice as a thing I can just do if I have no other actions

[frank crystal]

anything like a bomb arrow in this game?

[errant roost]

Isn't there an alchemist feat that lets you stick a bomb on an arrow?

[frank crystal]

I think?

[true delta]

I agree that the notation is rather confusing. Let me knw in case you were not joking an actually need an explanation of why the page numbers are like that.

[frank crystal]

Honestly I just really wanna play moonknight as a throwing weapons exemplar

[warped orbit]

Exemplar has a lot of good throwing support

[frank crystal]

Yah one of my players built one

[rustic cape]

Also shadow sheath works on bombs :D

[sturdy drum]

you can do 40d6 damage for 3 actions as a runesmith

[frank crystal]

Also WAIT WHAT?

[warped orbit]

you can do some big burst with Invoke yes

[warped orbit]

I assume invoking four runes at level 19

assuming the enemy also fails all saves

the damage runes in general seem quite strong

[warped orbit]

My concern is a bit that the damage runes are so straightforwardly good that they will overshadow other options for Runesmith

[sturdy drum]

i think being able to invoke any number of runes in play may be the contributing factor to why runesmith is overtuned

because that is insane action compression

top slot fireball damage on one action is also just plain ridiculous

[warped orbit]

Is that including damage runes or buffs though?

[sturdy drum]

the fighter? yes, but that isnt important. i just put it there as a reference point

since striking 3 times and trace rune + trace rune + invoke rune are both 3 actions

if we do not consider any other feats

[rapid wagon]

do we know about how the pathfinder pantheons interact with or feel about the outer gods from the dark tapestry?

aside from like a generalized opposition?

[surreal basin]

I think this is probably fine

With runesmith

I guess they could make invoking a two action activity or something but that’d be rough

[warped orbit]

I don't think they are too strong necessarily
but I do think it might be that if you are in melee doing the damage rune invoke may often be your best bet

and slightly worry that may overshadow some of their other runes and options

[rapid wagon]

yall think smite, holy light, or second blessing on a champion of iomedae?

just hit level 10

[sturdy drum]

I wanna try something fun.

Let's pretend a cold invoke rune exists for this hypothetical to work. At level 20, a Runesmith with Shades of Meaning and Tracing Trance, a pre-buffed weapon that has Whetstone and Corrupting, and an unarmed strike with Whetstone and Intensity, they could:

Tracing Trance -> Stride -> Engraving Strike (Fire + Preservation) + Thunder (Intensity) + Cold (Intensity)

Next turn:
Invoke -> Engraving Strike (Thunder + Intensity) + Invoke

That is 8d8 + 6d6 + 24 + 8 persistent + 140d6 + 6d4 persistent + 24 damage, or 607.5 damage over two turns.

if we consider this targeting a single PL+0 enemy with high AC and moderate fort saves, that is 338 damage on average over 2 turns

or 169 avg damage per turn

fun

[rustic cape]

Paladin?

[rapid wagon]

Champion yeah

Heavily invested into sword and shielding mostly

[rustic cape]

Er, I meant your blessing

Cause?

I forget the nomenclature

Is it the one where you hit someone who hits your friend

[rapid wagon]

oh i am justice and shield blessing

so i have no easy damage steroids running atm

aside from an enchanted weapon

[eager mountain]

More like gnomenclature !

[fast hill]

Thinking of another campaign idea, this time actually smthn I want to do. The premise is that the players are people who have been wronged by a lich king who has taken over the known world. They have all, in some way, decided that they are sick of the lich king's rule, and are going to do something about it. They are also a bunch of nobodies, and need to slot themselves into either a pre existing resistance movement or create their own.

The more of a nuissance they cause, the worse it will get for them and the more eyes will be on them

last thing you want is to be a guerilla fighter going back to base and you get scry'd

[clever cobalt]

For an Exemplar or Fighter Eternal Legend; how does "War-Saint" sound as a title?

[fast hill]

War-Saint goes HARD

[fast hill]

vaguely related to campaign idea: has anyone ever played with the alternate rule to get rid of level scaling? If so, how did it go?

I think it'd be interesting to have players who can always push a combat in their direction, and even an enemy significantly higher levelled than them can take them out. It also means that they will always have to contend with the mooks and grunts of any force they fight so might need to come up with different ways of approaching combat

I think PWL going up to like level 10 is the best bet maybe

Like my issue is that yeah, proficiency with level is fine for most campaigns, but when I want them to be routinely engaging the same types of enemies in different circumstances (with extras being thrown on and added into the pool throughout) They need to be able to not just dust those enemies when they meet them at later levels

Troops rules exist but it's not quite the same, I think

[echo briar]

I really wish nets were better

Like, you can grapple people from 10 feet away instead of 5 (assuming you don’t have reach), but it takes a hand, and they get a non scaling check to force open, braking the net

[silver geyser]

Nets were cracked in 1e, because it was a touch attack entangle for dirt cheap

Even if you weren't proficient, that -4 didn't matter because touch AC

https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Net

[rustic cape]

Nets would be a good niche for an archetype

[silver geyser]

For sure

[echo briar]

Nethys is updated https://2e.aonprd.com/Default.aspx

[warped orbit]

Prey for Death and Tian Xia IIRC

[echo briar]

https://2e.aonprd.com/AnimalCompanions.aspx?ID=110 Sunflora, the Pokemon? Does Paizo know how litigious the Pokémon company is?

[silver geyser]

Sunda is not Sun

[echo briar]

They’ve sued for less

[silver geyser]

Have they? It has nothing to do with Sunflora, even a little bit.

[echo briar]

They sued pal world for the concept of catching monsters with thrown objects.

[warped orbit]

Yes because they have a patent for that in 3d games

[echo briar]

This was a joke by the way.

[silver geyser]

I remember everyone going "wow, Pokémon should sue Palworld" for months as well. To the point that I don't understand why people got upset that it happened.

[echo briar]

Because in this particular instance, actually enforcing video game patients is very uncommon and a Pandora’s box due to how vague they all are

Nintendo is violating multiple patents, as is every video game developer. The patents are held solely so patent trolls don’t get to them first

[rustic cape]

You can't patent game mechanics, but you can copyright visual design, which was very much what the Palworld stuff was about

Anyway no I don't think the Pokemon company believes it owns the trademark on the sequential words "Sun flora"

[steel blade]

Warner Bros would beg to differ, see: the Nemesis System from Shadow of Mordor/Shadow of War, which they have patented with no plans to use for anything any time soon

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20160279522A1/en

[solar storm]

This is probably better in #video-game-discussion

[echo briar]

Anyways, I have a new favorite ritual https://2e.aonprd.com/Rituals.aspx?ID=170

Other than alliteration, why is it named after a butterfly?

[solar storm]

I assume it’s a reference to hurricanes being generated with the flap of a butterfly’s wings

[echo briar]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6yhto?Fall-Errata-Updates-2024

Blog post up, the actual errata however is not

Sure strike being once per combat (I assume, again the actual errata is not posted yet) is interesting

Probably a good change, it was good in a really weird way that made designing spell attacks difficult

[surreal basin]

Boy I sure hope they haven’t been designing spell attacks with sure strike in mind for some reason

[echo briar]

Honestly, I feel like sure strike didn’t really effect the existing spell attacks that much. It just prevented them from printing more

Also, do you think magus just gets expansive spell strike for free (the target still needs to make a save) or is it changed?

I could see saves made with spell strike having like a -2 penalty

[warped orbit]

huh?

that of all things I really did not expect

and fixing the damage on live wire

unfortunate, I was kinda hoping it was intentional

[warped orbit]

unclear
if the target still makes the save as normal, it has the exact same issue as Expansive already had

[echo briar]

Yea, I’m saying what do you think they will do

[warped orbit]

I think they'll still make it require the save

which will still make it a mediocre option probably
I just don't think they'll give Maguses the ability to make enemies fail a save if you hit them

[echo briar]

Again, I think a penalty to the save is within the realm of possibility

[warped orbit]

if it inflicts a penalty, that would be nice

[surreal basin]

I think it’ll be as written in expansive

Which imo is and was always nice to have as an option at least

[echo briar]

They’re doing something to the FAQ, it’s not loading at all

[surreal basin]

If only to let them use their main class action on like

More than 5 spells lmao

[echo briar]

They’ve reorganized the FAQ, but still haven’t added the new stuff

But it seems much more useful now

[worthy stump]

Yeah, that’s way better organized now

[echo briar]

If they don’t change how rouges get crit success to every save this errata, do you think it’s safe to say it’s intentional?

[warped orbit]

I guess

Since it dodged like two different errata passes IIRC

Would be a weird decision though

[surreal basin]

Yeah i think at that point it's solidly a house rule to change it if it's not literally broken and keeps dodging errata

[warped orbit]

Rogues did not need that particular buff

[surreal basin]

yea it would be a strange choice lol

[surreal basin]

eratta is fully up

spellstrike, they still have to make the save but they still have to make it even if you fail the strike

[surreal basin]

age 166: Make the following adjustments to the Rogue Advancement table:

Level 7 - Replace vigilant senses with perception mastery.
Level 13- Replace improved rogue reflexes with greater rogue reflexes.
Level 17- Replace slippery mind with agile mind.

i.... dont know if this fixes it?

[rustic cape]

Wait how does rogue get crit success to fortitude?

[warped orbit]

because in PC2 they get it on their Fort Expert feature

[clever cobalt]

Good question!

Yeah that

[warped orbit]

which people have been assuming is an error

[clever cobalt]

I find it weird personally

[warped orbit]

but it has so far not been errata'd

[clever cobalt]

Cause it's the only class that gets all 3 Save Success effects iirc

[warped orbit]

correct

and on their worst save no less

[rustic cape]

I'm so confused, rogue was in PC1, no?

[warped orbit]

oh huh, they actually nerfed the Dragonblood scales
they only scale up to full bonus at level 5 now

but that's fair

[warped orbit]

ah sorry, I just meant in Player Core
forgot which one they were in

[rustic cape]

Oh, yeah, it's right there in Rogue Resilience

I was looking right through it

Maybe it was unintentional at first but they decided to throw it in?

[warped orbit]

also RIP Live Wire

[rustic cape]

Oh Live Wire got nerfed?

[warped orbit]

yeah it heightens at +2 now

[rustic cape]

I mean, good but also

That seems fair

[warped orbit]

ehhh

it was stronger than other cantrips
I just don't really know if it was too much

[rustic cape]

It is true that a lot of cantrips feel a bit anemic

I think that's intentional, though

[warped orbit]

and at +2 it basically has bad damage now instead of good, with the small reliability from doing half on miss

but you could also just use a save based cantrip again

so it's back to Electric Arc

[rustic cape]

Yeah

[warped orbit]

also

Page 130: The oracle’s spellcasting text doesn’t match the table, which has the correct number of starting spells per day. Update the second paragraph under Oracle Spellcasting to “Each day, you can cast up to three 1st-rank spells.”

Pages 161–163: Make the following changes to deity edicts and anathema so they affect gameplay as intended and match Lost Omens Divine Mysteries and Player Core.

Desna: Replace “cause fear or despair” with “foster despair or terror in the innocent”.
Irori: Replace “become addicted to a substance” with “engage in overly unhealthy or self-destructive behaviors”.
Lamashtu: Replace the “indoctrinate children in Lamashtu’s teachings” edict with “indoctrinate others in Lamashtu’s teachings”; replace the “attempt to treat a mental illness or deformity” anathema with “attempt to change that which makes you different”.
Nethys: Add “continually” to the start of the anathema so it reads “continually pursue mundane paths over magical ones”.
Pharasma: Replace “rob a tomb” with “take from the dead in bad faith”.
Torag: Replace “show mercy to the enemies of your people” with “show continued mercy to the enemies of your people when such enemies prove they are undeserving”.
Urgathoa: Replace “destroy undead” with “destroy undead of no harm to you”.

anathema/edict changes

it's no longer Anathema to Demoralize as a Desna follower

[rustic cape]

Good

Still trying to rehabilitate Lamashtu I see

Not sure how I feel about that

[clever cobalt]

I'm conflicted as well

On one hadn't, Lamashtu is gross and weird, especially in the context of 2e

But on the other hand that's kind of her deal in the first place?

[solar storm]

Huge dub for substance enjoyers

[rustic cape]

Yeah I dunno if I have a problem with there being some gods who just kind of suck

[warped orbit]

Page 166 (Clarification): Yes, ruffian rogues can still deal sneak attack damage on a critical hit with a weapon with the fatal trait, even if the fatal die is greater than a d8, so long as the weapon’s original base damage die was no greater than a d8. For example, a ruffian rogue who got a critical hit with a pick (which normally has a d6 damage die with the fatal d10 trait) against an off-guard opponent would deal their sneak attack damage and the pick’s adjusted fatal damage.
oh thank god, they finally put that whole argument to rest

[warped orbit]

this seems to be entirely just a name change
So I guess Rogues just get the best saves in the game (except Monks) for some reason??

[solar storm]

It’s called Rogues of the path not martials who can boast or something

[light gyro]

i like the pharasma update cus YEAH WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CANT ROB TOMBS IN THE TOMB ROBBING GAME

[rustic cape]

Still better than monks at high levels :D

(Arguably even better than that since the ability to dump strength entirely lets a thief invest more in Con and Wis)

(Which is not a huge difference but)

[light gyro]

they finally fixed arcane cascade's fucky stance requirement btw

[warped orbit]

that was errata'd a while ago already

[stuck bane]

We’d been waiting a whole week and even changed what day we were playing so everyone could be present for a dragon fight that got set up and the end of last session

My players took it down completely in two rounds, it only got one good hit in, and it died to a crit fail against Spirit Blast dealing about 120 damage when it had about 70 and would have fled if it was under 40 on its next turn

It was anticlimactic to the point that it was still kind of a blast, though

[rustic cape]

Oh did they address the oracle question?

Aha

Yes they did

Wait no

They didn't

The conflict is still on Nethys at least

[warped orbit]

This is the only thing mentioned for Oracle casting

[solar storm]

That addresses it - the table is right

I think the errata just isn’t on AoN yet

[rustic cape]

Aha

Good, good

[surreal basin]

Live wire still does half damage on miss

Which is pretty great

And has decent damage

Also nice to have essentially shocking grasp back for magus

Or uhhh

No the other one

[turbid dagger]

Man, there are so many consumables in this game
I'm always finding new ones that are amazing and would have been so great to know about earlier
First it was Potency Crystals and now

This is so nice for Targeuses and Aegis Exemplars and other folks with a shield focus but tight action econ

[echo briar]

So, the errata gives staffs as an example of an invested item. Staffs are not invested items.

Does this mean staffs should have the invested trait, or they just gave a bad example?

Regardless, the errata needs an errata (hello arcade cascade)

Also shout outs to Maya, the new staff member who doing incredible work for communication and transparency.

[upbeat ridge]

I feel like the sure strike nerf only really affects gishes super hard

[echo briar]

It effected design more than gameplay

They couldn’t make any attack rolls that were too good because of it

[upbeat ridge]

Yeah

[surreal basin]

What’s wrong with the new arcane cascade?

[upbeat ridge]

you gotta use it in the same turn you spellstrike, but that got changed when the remaster came out I think

The spellstrike change does make magus less feast or famine at least

But makes the class require int a bit more

[surreal basin]

…. Are you sure because like

The arcane cascade in nethys at least has that requirement
I know they’re not super up to date but

[turbid dagger]

The overpowering urge to play an oscillating wave psychic and run around melee ignition-ing people

[warped orbit]

I don't think it really changes anything

[turbid dagger]

Psychic's so fragile...... but its so much damage....... flanking........

[warped orbit]

Expansive Spellstrike already existed, and it was pretty meh

Spellstriking with a save spell gives up one of the biggest benefits of Spellstrike for some minor action compression at best

[surreal basin]

I don’t necessarily think it’s great but it’s nice to have ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I almost always took ES in practice because the alternative was using the same like

3 spells forever

[warped orbit]

in 99% of cases you will Spellstrike with an attack cantrip or a focus spell, yes
but that's just kinda what it's designed for

[limber comet]

Man, this magus change

Yum...

[trail nova]

This is why I think magus should have been built around spell combat.

[warped orbit]

Until Spellstrike gives a tangible benefit for doing it with save spells, it makes no sense to do it

You spend two actions plus one (to recharge) to Strike and make the enemy save against the spell
Or you could spend two actions plus one to just Strike and Cast A Spell

And especially with Int not being KAS and not even necessary for anything else, it's a hard proposition to rely on saves anyway

[rustic cape]

Expanded Spellstrike just gives you two points of failure

[trail nova]

... I wonder how bad a magus who just gets a 2 action florish that reads "cast a spell and strike, in any order. This doesn't provoke reactions for any tags on the spell" would be.

[rustic cape]

I do think allowing magus to do more spell combat stuff would be very sensible

Let you specialize more in one or the other based on feat choice

Hopefully we eventually get a proper magus update

[trail nova]

I don’t think this sort of action compression is particularly egregious as a full class feature - it’s the same as like… Flurry of Blows

[rustic cape]

I agree

[warped orbit]

If no other changes to the class, this would be fine but probably still worse than current Magus I think

[trail nova]

I was planning on removing the recharge bit

Which makes it true action compression

[warped orbit]

That makes it a bit better, but having to actually rely on your spellcasting mod is difficult

[rustic cape]

I feel like spellstrike should let you circumvent the need for a save, and spell-combat should be primarily oriented towards support/buff spells

Both could stand to be better, essentially

[warped orbit]

I assume they don't want to give Magus the ability to cause "auto" fails

It'd need to be more restricted than just any save based spell for that

[rustic cape]

Mm, I guess

Or I dunno, let them use their attack bonus for the DC or something

Maybe a single opposed roll of attack vs. flat save DC? That'd let monsters still have saves they excelled at

While increasing magus versatility a lot

[trail nova]

Ooh, that’s clever (and also basically 4e.) I like itZ

[warped orbit]

Magus does just kinda need a bit of an overhaul I think

[rustic cape]

I agree, yeah

[rustic cape]

4e was absolutely on the brain

[trail nova]

I think Magus will always be a little jank, just because there’s no real space for midcasters despite those being most of Pazio’s best 1e work

[rustic cape]

I was like "god 4e defenses would be so suitable here"

And then I thought "wait PF2e does in fact have tech for this"

Could be fun if you had a mix of hybrid studies oriented more towards spell combat or more towards spell strike

"Every round I throw another buff spell on myself" vs. "I am extremely good at targeting your weak points with attacks an doing extra damage"

[upbeat ridge]

Yeah, gishes are in kind of a weird math hole

Where they don’t excel at anything

[rustic cape]

This is why I think giving them a focus on buffing in-combat and targeting alternate defenses with attacks would be solid

[trail nova]

Yeah, I really don’t get why they didn’t make the jump from 1e more smoothly. Since Inquisitor, Magus, Bard, and Alchemist were all very popular, Investigator… probably needed the alchemy, but I’ll admit it’s not central to the concept, Hunter and Warpriest were well liked, Occultist is probably the most popular Occult class.

[upbeat ridge]

Well, it’s due to 2e’s number scaling

[trail nova]

Yeah. I guess if I was Pazio I would have taken the tack of assuming we’ll have something like the 6 casters, figuring out how to do it, then building the system around them working.

[upbeat ridge]

Like, imo the sure strike nerf only affects gishes negatively, with magus getting kinda screwed, I guess warpriest is still ok, but battle oracle is even more nonfunctional now, staff nexus is dead, battle muse bard who? And I don’t think it was super intentional on thier part that this happened? Like, this just feels like a knock on effect of them killing a certian malignant play pattern

So, gishes kinda need something that unfucks thier math but can’t get abused by full martials/casters

[upbeat ridge]

Would it really be too strong to force a failed save on a spell strike hit like channel smite?

Because “melee fighter that can target saves easily” is a good niche for gishes tbh

[upbeat ridge]

I mean… maybe since magi are more accurate than warpriests

But I don’t think warpriests should get a monopoly on the auto fail a save on melee hit tech tbh

Because I feel like magus is in a weird spot now and the other full caster gishes are even worse

I guess the gish animist is fine, idk

[upbeat ridge]

Because design wise, this is nice and simple tech that lets gishes have a more well defined niche imo

[warped orbit]

I'd say its more that a fail against a Harm is a lot less bad than against a CC save spell

[upbeat ridge]

yeah

[rustic cape]

Also, some enemies have very good saves against certain bands of effect by design

[upbeat ridge]

im not saying that every gish should get exactly this but it gives warpriest a solid niche imo

[rustic cape]

I dunno if it should be possible to circumvent "this enemy has good will saves"

[upbeat ridge]

yeah

[rustic cape]

That's why I'm arguing attacks targeting Will defense (or whatever is applicable in a given case) would instead be reasonable

And give magi a really interesting niche imo

[upbeat ridge]

because like, in terms of team comp, if its like, martial, caster, ranged martial, its great to have a melee thats still a full caster in that fourth slot

warpriest is great at that

the other full caster gishes are just not there

the gish animist is good ig?

but thats about it

[rustic cape]

Gish animist is weird because of its need to sustain its gish options

And for some reason lurker in darkness's shapeshifting option lets you strike as part of the sustain but the other ones don't

I really think they should tbh

[frank crystal]

Oh my god I cannot stand the PF2E subreddit

“They know it’s a bad change, they just don’t care”

SHUT UP

[turbid dagger]

Oh my god I cannot stand the PF2E subreddit

[clever cobalt]

Does Reddit think Paizo is intentionally making the game worse

[frank crystal]

Yes!

[rustic cape]

Reddit is an occasionally-useful resource that is best avoided when not looking for something specific

[solar storm]

I don’t think it even effects most of them that badly - a Magus is only gonna get 1-2 casts of it anyway

Maybe some kind of spellcaster dedication full martial who just spams it gets hit worse haha

[solar storm]

Oh yeah I literally do not go there any more

The subreddit is awful

[warped orbit]

I mostly just find the Sure Strike nerf weird

[solar storm]

I agree

It doesn’t feel very necessary except for certain niche builds which super lean into it where maybe it’s warranted

[warped orbit]

just feels pretty rough for Psychics especially

[solar storm]

If the design team feels that it’s a problem for them making cool attack roll spells then I support it in hopes of getting those otherwise idrc about it

[warped orbit]

since they have a lot of high impact attack focus spells

[crystal walrus]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1b0rjrv/red_hand_of_doom_complete_pf2_conversion/

Looking into running this

[rustic cape]

Oh fun

[crystal walrus]

I got the gm itch again.

[clever cobalt]

Whats the Red Hand of Doom again?

[errant roost]

one of the more popular D&D3.5 adventure paths: Tiamat-worshipping hobgoblins leading an army full of dragonkin, led by dragons, are trying to take over the world? region?

[clever cobalt]

Ah

[echo briar]

I don’t actually think they changed it from the last erratas “arcade cascade”

[true delta]

A question about Quest for the Frozen Flame: My group's in the first volume and I'm unsure whether we've been using the Reconnoiter exploration activity correctly. So far, the players have decided where to Travel to and for each hex they enter, I've rolled on whether a random ancounter takes place. Whenever it did, this forced them to Reconnoiter to deal with it. Is this the right way? Or should they get to decide whether they reconnoiter? The wording in the AP does not properly specify this.

[sage coral]

Reconnoiter is an action they take as a group to try and scout out the hex (to find hidden features/locations). Landmarks without a DC are immediately obvious to the players.
A random encounter happens to them (you don't need to punish them by forcing them to take the reconnoiter action). Either when they travel into the hex or when they reconnoiter.

In the second volume they will pretty much have to reconnoiter every hex anyway. That offers some good opportunities for random encounters, though you will have to think them up yourself as the book doesn't suggest any.

[true delta]

Thank you!!!

[crystal walrus]

Start at Elsir Vale

[true delta]

Another question about Frozen Flame: I try to keep an eye on the Broken Tusks' number of members, with all their losses and recruits. Do you think animals, such as giant tapirs, count as members?

Hm. Probably not, I struggle to imagine a tapir being presented with a Broken Tusk pendant in a ritualistic manner.

[frank crystal]

what happens if due to a reaction a creature moves out of another creature's range when they're being attacked?

[rustic cape]

I believe reactions happen first

[frank crystal]

does the attack work then?

[rustic cape]

I think the answer would be no?

[frank crystal]

alright

[rustic cape]

Pretty sure it's possible for a reaction to prevent its trigger from resolving

[true delta]

I would contest this but merely on pedantic grounds. I thiiink such reactions phrase their triggers in a way like "the creature would be hit by an attack" or somesuch.

[frank crystal]

ah ok

[frank crystal]

Oh my god

Foundry has had a generate attack button

This entire time

For years I’ve been manually inputting the stats for weapons on my NPC statblocks

Completely unaware

I could have done this

THE ENTIRE TIME

[keen raptor]

Yeah trying to unravel all the shit foundry can do is... a lot

[true delta]

Frozen Flame: I'm considering having various NPCs "level up" when used as lieutnants. Much anime. For example, Merthig could start out as a Dwarf Warrior, later become a Dwarf Stonecaster and later still acquire the ability to turn into a Living Wildfire.

[echo briar]

What AP has the most accurate name?

Abomination vaults are about vaults of abominations

[silver geyser]

Kingmaker.

[solar storm]

Most of it isn’t really vaults

[echo briar]

but you could make a democracy

[solar storm]

Quest for the frozen flame is pretty accurate iirc

[echo briar]

or just make a queen.

the flame is never frozen

[surreal basin]

Right but it’s called the frozen flame

[echo briar]

Is it?

I’ve played through it, and it was never called that once

Why would it be called that, it’s job is to ||make things not frozen||

||the temperature can not get below freezing without magic when it’s around||

[surreal basin]

Oh I thought it was lol

[rustic cape]

It never is

It's called the Primordial Flame

[surreal basin]

Oh okay

Yeah weird then

[rustic cape]

I think it's just "well this is in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords it's cold there right"

Season of Ghosts?

I hear that has a season of ghosts

[surreal basin]

Oh no sorry the correct answer is bloodlords

You are bloodlords in it

[echo briar]

but the ghosts last more than a season. it should be seasons of ghosts

[rustic cape]

tru

[echo briar]

also, rouges having the best saves was intentional.

[clever cobalt]

Weird

[rustic cape]

Huh, fun

[surreal basin]

Aight

I mean I think that timely comes out to “weird but fine”

[echo briar]

But also again, shout out to Maya, who’s doing the lords work communicating with the player base

[surreal basin]

Oh is that your email??

[rustic cape]

I can kind of see a logic to it but I'm not sure I could explain said logic

[echo briar]

No, this came from Reddit

I’ve just been noticing her work

[rustic cape]

Like ... I guess it tracks to me that rogues are uniquely talented at getting out of bullshit

And yeah I keep seeing screencaps of her being great

[echo briar]

She’s actually active on the forums and is trying to answer these long standing questions

[rustic cape]

It sorta reminds me of like ... how way back in AD&D fighters just had really good all-around saves, and that was just a thing about them

It was hard to tag a high-level fighter with stuff

The principle feels vaguely similar

[limber comet]

I mean, rogues are supposed to be particularly slippery because that's the fantasy so

it tracks

[turbid dagger]

Ive had trouble articulating this before but rogues getting crit upgrades in all skills makes sense to me because uhhhh
In older versions of D&D/Path-o-sphere games, one of Rogues' Things is that it got to take no damage on passing a reflex save
But now crit upgrades are a thing a lot of classes get
So Rogues get crit upgrade+ because the mechanical effect of the crit upgrade features used to be Its Thing

[frank crystal]

Fist of the Ruby pheonix is about becoming the fist of the Ruby pheonix

[rustic cape]

Yeah, "rogues are slippery motherfuckers" just feels very fitting

[echo briar]

On a scale of 1-10, how bad of an idea is it for a new player to play an animist?

[rustic cape]

Starting from what level?

I have experience with animist at high level

It is on the one hand very complex but on the other hand I think if you started from 1st you could get used to it with minimal handholding

[errant roost]

also: how new a player? new to pf2e, new to RPGs, new to tabletop games in general?

[rustic cape]

Medium might be best from a simplicity perspective, but Liturgist will leave them feeling ... less constrained?

If that makes sense?

[thorny berry]

depends 100% on the person. Not great in a vacuum but if they're a spreadsheet pervert by nature they'll be fine.

ask how they feel about caves of qud hitting 1.0

[surreal basin]

That’s a great question lol

I have a player who played a good chunk of pf1e and had only played a little 2e who wants to join a level 5 or 6 campaign as a laughing shadow magus or an animist

[trail nova]

They’ll be fine

[surreal basin]

Ythink? Cool

[limber comet]

Animist is complicated, but not that complicated

[thorny berry]

yeah I mean maybe warn of some 1e to 2e pitfalls but if they can deal with 1e generally they should be fine

[warped orbit]

Weird

[surreal basin]

Weird but ultimately I guess no biggie

[limber comet]

Listening to Warriors in Valour while making my party of pf ocs

So far I have a human magus (ls) and a grandeur champion minotaur

Any class suggestions? Doesn't necessarily need to fill a mechanical niche, can just be whatever you find neat

The general theme is pirates/sailors/coastal folk

[rotund geode]

Well I feel almost obligated to throw out a Swashbuckler

Then…. Some sort of Cleric probably of storms or seas.

And finally a thaumaturge

All of those seem very interesting for that sort of thing

[limber comet]

Thaum could be fun, and my champion guy is already the "sea god" worshipper

[rustic cape]

The most complicated for them w/ either of those will probably be action economy

[errant roost]

Hmm. An Oracle for a navigator?

[trail nova]

Someone with the Arcane or Primal list for weather stuff could also make sense, as the ship mage.

[limber comet]

...Stars mystery oracle navigator?

Also they don't necessarily have to be sailors in particular, but like, any sort of role you could see being fulfilled in a fantasy coastal town

[limber comet]

Maybe instead of a dedicated "mage" what about a air/water kinet?

[rustic cape]

If animist had a storm apparition (like it should) it would be perfect

Even without it's still good for this purpose

Or Just Do A Druid

[clever cobalt]

Spore War PG is out

https://paizo.com/store/pathfinder/adventures/adventurepath/sporewar

[errant roost]

Spore...spore never changes

[rustic cape]

Unless it gets a new patch

Or you mod it

[turbid dagger]

Ey yo WHAT

First off: Seems like Battlecry! is in fact the name of the book
Second off: allusions to a 'skirmish' mechanic where PCs control large bodies of troops

And third off: Confirmation that campaigns that uses mythic rules, as well as the skirmish rules, are in the works

[limber comet]

I DIDNT EVEN NOTICE THAT

WHAAAAT

SKIRMISH RULES???? HELLO,????????????

[surreal basin]

If I had to guess probably altered rules from Kingmaker mass combat

[carmine egret]

:o

[solar storm]

Genericized Kingmaker rules would be welcome 😮

[clever cobalt]

I like this players guide

Eager to see this adventure

[turbid dagger]

Man
I really hope Guardian gets Defensive Advance
I want to use that feat so MF much but I cannot for the life of my think of a good Champion Concept

[silver geyser]

Champion of Dammerich?

[turbid dagger]

Dammerich IS one of my fave gods
I just have trouble thinking about what leads someone to Devote Themselves like what Champion flavor wants

[silver geyser]

A Cause is a wonderful thing

[frank crystal]

Who’s Dammerich?

[silver geyser]

God of Executions

[frank crystal]

Oh dear

[silver geyser]

Well

Celestial lord

[turbid dagger]

You'd think that
He's chill

He's very much 'when there's no other choice, I am the one who stains my hands so others don't have too'

[silver geyser]

Yeee

If you are innocent and no one else believes you

[turbid dagger]

A recurring idea I've had is a Hellknight Whose Actually Chill who worships him
Order of the Torrent naturally

[silver geyser]

There is Dammerich and his followers

[frank crystal]

Oh neat

Though, what’s the difference between an Empyreal lord and a god?

[turbid dagger]

So they're basically minor gods
You know how in hell there's Asmodeus, but then also all the archdevils under him
Empyreal Lords are archdevils of team good

[frank crystal]

Ohhhh

That’s neat

Are they related to angels at all?

Or kinda a tier above them?

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, much like archdevils they are kind of the top of the angelic hierarchy, but below the proper gods

[frank crystal]

Cool

Mechanically are they any different then gods or nah?

[turbid dagger]

Nah, you aren't any worse off for being a cleric or champion of them

[frank crystal]

Great

Also ngl the idea of the god of executions being fundamentally aligned with executing as few people as possible is really cool

[frank crystal]

Like that description kinda makes me think that besides being the god of executions, they’re also the god of stopping executions if they’re not absolutely for sure justified

[silver geyser]

They are!

[wooden orbit]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6xq1n?Introducing-the-Spore-War-Player-s-Guide

Ssppooorrreeessss

Mushrooooms

[warped orbit]

This seems pretty powerful as a background
(It's from Spore War PG)

Okay it is rare apparently, and the Spore War backgrounds all have an extra

[rustic cape]

Aha

Still, that's hella good

[light gyro]

AP backgrounds tend to have a little extra iirc

[light gyro]

oh that's good good

[rustic cape]

except the ones in Gatewalkers, which are trying to have extra but Deviant Feats suck

Terrain Stalker's also a situationally extremely powerful feat

Since if you have time to move slow and you're in the right terrain you can just ... skip rolling entirely

[surreal basin]

Man the PF and SF subreddits are just miserable huh

Reading through them and like 90% of the posts are weird white room optimization complaints lol

[wooden orbit]

white room optimization?

[surreal basin]

People Just posting damage graphs and spreadsheets and complaining about things being OP without ever playing with them

Doing “white room” testing where it’s just them and an enemy in a blank space testing just the specific thing in question

[silver geyser]

Ah, the DPR Olympics will never die.

[surreal basin]

Classic example is the uhh

Double Slice flickmace guys lol

[eager mountain]

This is why I don’t use Reddit

[trail nova]

I wonder how much of it is ESE doing their thing.

They are uhh... very dedicated to extensive stress testing, is the politest way I can put it.

(And also have no real sense of when they are shouting into the void.)

[surreal basin]

They suck really bad yeah

They’re banned from the Paizo forums

And it’s very obvious why lol

[errant roost]

ESE?

[trail nova]

Earth Seraph Edna

[trail nova]

Also from here

[surreal basin]

A frequent poster on the paizo subreddits

Oh wow

[trail nova]

Yeah, that was for ICON playtest stuff.

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah okay

That tracks

Yeah their recent starfinder posting is what made me think of this

[trail nova]

Yeah. At least as far as I know they're just very annoying, rather than anything particularly harmful beyond that.

[clever cobalt]

Annoying how?

[surreal basin]

They post a lot about very small issues blown hugely out of proportion in really weird ways

Like 2-4 posts a day

And it’s all white room optimization testing kinda stuff

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[surreal basin]

Like

Okay recently a post of theirs has overtaken my friend group

Because it’s insane

They’ve been doing the starfinder playtest

And apperantly EVERY CHARACTER, pc or NPC, ends up using the same tactic

Of, run into line of sight, strike with a ranged weapon, run back out of line of sight

Which devolves into turtleing with readied ranged strikes by both sides

According to them, every single combat they do turns into this

[errant roost]

hmm. skill issue, or are the combats just full of Generic Archer equivalents?

[trail nova]

And they repost it to every platform they have access to.

[surreal basin]

Yeah…..

Which is increasingly little given….
They’re banned from Paizo forums AND here for

Well

gestures

Anyway I’m increasingly just thinking Reddit is just like this lol

Which is unfortunate because it’s p much the only google indexable community for any kind of rules stuff at all

Since everything else is discord communities

[rustic cape]

RIP Forums

And yeah I think Reddit structurally incentivizes that sort of behavior

[surreal basin]

Gotta get those kind updoots stranger

:3

[rustic cape]

Not that the old forum communities were wonderful places either

[surreal basin]

Oh for sure

[clever cobalt]

People obsess about upvotes

[surreal basin]

I’m gonna be honest also

[clever cobalt]

both in the way that they want them, and they also blame everyone else for wanting Upvotes

if that makes sense

[surreal basin]

I think too many people has Optimization Disease

Where they just

Have to do the thing that maths the best even if they hate it

Literally can’t even conceive of just not doing it

[clever cobalt]

I unfortunetly also suffer from this disease to an extent

[surreal basin]

Gestures at “BUT I HAVE TO USE A FLICKMACE NOW”

From a year or two back

Man the flickmace debacle really is such a microcosm huh

[surreal basin]

The first step is acknowledging u have a problem

[rustic cape]

Also I actually just don’t believe this, is every character a fucking sniper operative?

[surreal basin]

Nope! Two of them were soldiers apperantly

And that wouldn’t even be good on operative because you don’t have a spare action to aim

Yet this is apperantly what happens

[trail nova]

Operative gets some good action compression, tbf

[surreal basin]

Yeah I guess you could be mobile aiming the first part

The move out of cover

[rustic cape]

Yeah I’m calling Extreme Bullshit on this because this is not good play strategy for 5/6 classes in the playtest

[surreal basin]

Oh absolutely

He never mentions casters at all

For how they could stop this

[rustic cape]

Or soldiers! With their big AOE attacks!

[surreal basin]

Witchwarper alone could stop rhis with 0 spell expenditures

By dropping their warp terrain on the enemy position

[errant roost]

scanning through one of the...six? threads they started about this, it looks like all these tests are:

• a GM and one player controlling all the PCs, swapping off
• using the official poster maps
• exclusively "kill the other side" combats
  their solution is to add a 10 turn timer...because their optimal strategy to kill the other side doesn't work in ten turns of combat

[surreal basin]

I KNEW IT

I KNEW IT WAS JUST HIM AND HIS WIFE STILL GOD DAMMIT

This guy has been fascinating my friend group for like

A month

Since we’ve also been extensively play testing SF

… yknow, using the playtests they put out

And not just random one off combats on a poster map :p

[echo briar]

I just checked, the top 10 posts on the PF2 subreddit are: 1 well thought out homebrew for a common complaint, 2 regular homebrews, 2 posts talking about the new players guide, 1 advice, an update on previously given advice, 2 videos, and a post about how to how to have productive discourse

I have no clue about the SF sub, but the PF2 one seems ok.

It is seemingly better than the PF2 discord

[surreal basin]

That’s fair, I’m just saying what my experience with seeing posts from it has been

[solar storm]

The bad part of the subreddit is the comments

The posts are comparatively ok

But I don’t go there to avoid the appearance of encouraging them haha

[sacred bluff]

Oh god there's a name I haven't thought about in years

[surreal basin]

years

He’s been doing this for years????

[errant roost]

this reminds me of a certain kind of forum poster from when 3.5 and Pathfinder 1e were still big

(flashbacks to the "hey! look as this weird RAW implication!" threads where people would get into screaming fights about grammar that they misread as being more ambiguous than it was)

[surreal basin]

Oh he’s absolutely that guy except instead of “check this out” it’s “PAIZO FIX THIS NOW OH GOD OH FUCK”

[solar storm]

It’s extremely important to remember that all of ESE’s playtests are 2 people who take turns between combats of playing the GM and 4 player characters

[surreal basin]

Yeah

I have suspected this and recently had it confirmed

[solar storm]

Which since this has been done for a while means that the tactics used are almost always super different from what any more conventional groups are doing

[surreal basin]

To be clear also this isn’t me posting about being mad

I mostly find this guy like

Fascinating

In a lovecraftian manner

[worthy stump]

It’s fascinating in the same way as looking at a trainwreck, yeah

[surreal basin]

Even more so considering he’s basically playing it like a war game?????

For some reason??????

It’s also really funny because almost every time the comments are like “god dammit you again”

[solar storm]

Oh yeah I just think that’s important context

[silver geyser]

Hey, two questions. What's the DC to jump across a 10 foot pit? Also, can you still take actions while dead?

[solar storm]

It does kinda show how the incentives for an RPG are not the same as a war game and how the rules work out differently

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah I mostly just specified because like… it could easily be misconstrued

[surreal basin]

LMAO

I love shit like this

Where they’re asking a “neutral” question

But like

Obviously there’s some weird additional context they’re refusing to mention

[silver geyser]

The 10 foot pit I can at least get.

[errant roost]

no see, those are the fun ones. Or like how in 3.5 there's technically no way to stop drowning (but if you do it right then you can drown your way to infinite knowledge).

[surreal basin]

What

Oh is it just like “if you run out of air you start drowning”

But it never says you can get out of that state

[errant roost]

I'm talking about people arguing that some basic, clearcut interaction doesn't work because they've elected to use a hithertoe unknown definition for the word "has"
(and best case scenario, just flooding the threads with boring nonsense, way more often getting into fights about it)

[silver geyser]

Correct

[surreal basin]

That shit is funny up until someone actually starts arguing with you ala “yeah ghosts can drown”

[solar storm]

Sorry this is sort of a different line of questioning but I do wonder how rpg combats would feel with (competitive) wargame norms applied to them

[errant roost]

how so?

[surreal basin]

Like totally sacrificial units

Where it doesn’t matter at all if they survived

?

[errant roost]

well now I want to play an exorcist who drowns ghosts

[solar storm]

Limited numbers of turns, only victory points matter, primary/secondary/tertiary objectives and no attrition between combats

[surreal basin]

Book of the dead coming out was the most I’ve ever had a disconnect with anyone who was ostensibly running the same game as me

[warped orbit]

well as written they definitely can

as can all other player undead

[surreal basin]

As written NPC undead also drown

Nothing says they don’t

[silver geyser]

NPC Lancer stuff

[warped orbit]

oh right, I forgot it's only I think Elemental that specifies they don't need to breathe?

[surreal basin]

Yes

[silver geyser]

Correct

[sacred bluff]

Yeah, he blighted the Spheres of Might playtest way back in the day

[surreal basin]

If you don’t have the elemental, aquatic, or amphibious tag, you drown

Including creatures like the underwater ghouls

[solar storm]

ESE was also on /tg/ a lot way back when under a different name

[surreal basin]

Or in bloodlords where there’s a whole temple underwater

[warped orbit]

I was thinking of some other undead immunities that players don't get
like disease and poison

[errant roost]

That's kind of how Tom's designs have been going, right? He's mentioned how a hypothetical Lancer 2.0 would e.g. completely redo Limited and Core Powers so that you don't have the oneshot power budget problem

[surreal basin]

All of those guys should be dead

[silver geyser]

Which meant RAW, fire elementals are fine underwater

[surreal basin]

Anyway my point is mostly just that

[solar storm]

Yeah Lancer comes sort of close but has really limited objectives

[surreal basin]

The undead discourse

[solar storm]

And attrition

[surreal basin]

Is the most I’ve ever felt like I don’t understand a community

Or “a community” and “don’t understand” might not be right but like

I felt a violent disconnect between me and “ghosts should drown”

[silver geyser]

"Dead doesn't say you can't take actions, or even exist as a condition" is mine

[surreal basin]

Was that a real PF2E community issue at some point

[warped orbit]

well, that is tbh on Paizo
if you make a tag that says things don't need to breathe, and then don't apply it to things that should have it
then those things can drown as written

[surreal basin]

I mean yes but also

[solar storm]

Like in Kill Team for example the game is scored off of

• critical operation, which is roughly equivalent to a Lancer sitrep
• secondary operation, which is basically a chosen objective which both sides choose from a list and they don’t need to match
• kill op, which is basically scoring points for the % of the enemy killed
  And you pick one of them as a “primary op” which makes it worth 150%

[silver geyser]

1e

[surreal basin]

To a degree you are expected to apply like

Sensicalness

[errant roost]

I don't know why, but this reminded me why I dropped Rusty Quill's Pathfinder podcast. An early behind the scenes episode they talk about how great it is that Pathfinder is rules light...since it has rules for everything, but you can ignore the ones you don't need.

[solar storm]

Each one is worth op to 6 points and the game is scored out of 18 pts per side

(Technically a perfect game can score 21 points - this never happens)

And that’s… way more than most RPGs have going on

[trail nova]

To be fair, Pazio has somewhat gone with “no, we very purposefully want ghosts to be able to drown”

[surreal basin]

A PR2e proficiency without level war game where you buy NPCs based on CR would kinda fuck

[trail nova]

At least for players

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Which

I’m not going to get into

[warped orbit]

tbh, the disconnect with player undead is a big peeve of mine

[surreal basin]

But for the sake of explanation, I think is a really bad and stupid choice

And they should’ve just never printed player undead

If that’s how they were gonna act

[warped orbit]

and I still just think they shouldn't have made playable undead if they don't want to give them full immunity

[solar storm]

The way I see it is that for good or ill Paizo is a modules company which makes games for the modules

[silver geyser]

MR. BONES SHALL DIE IN SPACE

[errant roost]

thought: you know how early D&D expected you to have wildly different levels across the party? what if you did a troupe style play where you built parties for different expeditions up to a point budget. So you can have your level 10 fighter, but they'll eat most of your budget and everyone else needs to tighten their belts and bring some newb in their adventuring guild

[solar storm]

So the rules are very much oriented towards properly slotting into APs

[surreal basin]

That’s fair but also like

Doesn’t budge my opinion an inch

[warped orbit]

that doesn't really make a player skeleton dying of poison any less weird

[solar storm]

Which means that they’ve progressively removed immunities and skips and such to make it easier to write modules

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Idk it’s just one of those things where like

At least personally

I run undead as being undead with very few exceptions

I don’t even mind the poison thing, whatever

[solar storm]

Kill Team at least (not all skirmish games do this) mostly has relatively equal in power models on a team

[surreal basin]

It’s the ones that like

Literally require you to just ignore the story of the game

I’m sorry there’s no way to make a skeleton drown where don’t just

[solar storm]

Yeah I don’t care for it

The above is just my justification for accepting it

[heavy fulcrum]

yeah, pathfinder is designed for APs and Society play

[surreal basin]

Oh for sure

Which I think is bad

But it is how it is

[silver geyser]

Not having to breathe is overvalued tbh

[heavy fulcrum]

but also paizo tries to have it both ways when it comes to the rules

its both rigid and loose, narrow and ill-defined, exacting and imprecise

[surreal basin]

Also again

Gestures at stuff like undead being able to drown even if they’re NPCs

And then they put undead NPCs underwater in multiple APs

[heavy fulcrum]

it doesn't know if it wants to be a tactical combat game with strict functions or an OSR where you can make shit up on the fly

[surreal basin]

Because it’s obvious they can’t drown

This doesn’t actually impact my enjoyment of the game

And I’m glad Paizo seems to be generally stepping away from this kind of design that dominated their writing in the guns and gears, secrets of magic era

As I’ve been over before

[warped orbit]

I do kind of mind, because of the same reason as what dogs is saying

the rules are usually pretty precise, so when they aren't it stands out more

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah I mind insofar as like

I think it’s annoying

I just mean that it’s the kinda thing where I know how I want it to be so I change it

And from that point on it no longer is relevant to me

Yknow

Like as a designer it bugs me but it’s also no longer worth being mad about

[heavy fulcrum]

they opened this can of worms and now they have to lie in it

[surreal basin]

It did also lead to a really funny bit

[errant roost]

mhm mhm. And I do think you'd want a relatively flat power curve across the party, but I'm seeing an interesting thread here for the right sort of group. Powerbudgeting your party could be totally rancid in the wrong group, but if you've got a bunch of Darkest Dungeon sickos then I think it could be a fun, cooperative puzzle

[surreal basin]

Where during the underwater bloodlords part

My GM kept flashing us to an alternate dimension

Every time we opened a door

Where we saw every enemy floating dead on the ceiling

Because they drowned

[solar storm]

Oh yeah this is kinda just a kill team thing

There’s relatively few teams with a few really strong models and mostly weak ones

But that’s to increase the feeling of “teams of specialists”

[errant roost]

I think there's also a fun design problem to solve in why the party has a points budget. Union rules? Does bringing too much magical juju on a delve destabilize the dungeon dimensions?

(granted, I don't think skirmish games ever care about that)

[surreal basin]

I have occasionally made referencing to character levels and skill ranks existing canonically in my setting

*spell ranks

But skill ranks also

[heavy fulcrum]

the Magical Fight Zone has a mystical binding spell that limits the strengths of those entering its borders, obviously

[surreal basin]

Almost always as some kind of neurotic bureaucracy that measures the strength of mercenaries it employs

[heavy fulcrum]

everybody loves weirdo bureaucracies

[errant roost]

make The Dungeon Master a real entity in the game who can be angered (or appeased)

[heavy fulcrum]

this is actually the premise of uh

the one modern fantasy adventure game show game

where dungeon crawling is a major sport, a la American football, with competitions and sponsors and stadiums

(modern fantasy here being bloodbowl style "its a fantasy setting but we've just msde it have phones and tv")

so you do actually have to think about the rules of the sport and the folks behind the scenes

[thorny berry]

pretty much

my personal bugbear is the degree to which out of combat utility balance just kinda.... doesn't exist or isn't really factored in to a significant degree are bugbears OGL

[thorny berry]

xcrawl

[heavy fulcrum]

thats the one