Pathfinder

[frank crystal]

Why would you want to play magus when you could play a thaumaturge?

[limber comet]

Because Magus is fun

Not specifically no

[thorny berry]

would honestly be down for this tbh

the camera zooms out to reveal you opening a door with a water bucket above your head labeled 'passive implement hand economy'

(also I feel like implements could use a bit of a balance pass overall but I am otherwise also a thaumaturge stan)

honestly the nice thing with thaumaturge is like

different individual builds feel VERY different and they have a lot of feats that are both mechanically good and have a ton of flavor

[spring beacon]

I like Spells, I like Stick. spellstick

[spring beacon]

What mythic archetypes available to them at least

[clever cobalt]

Still thinking about a Battlezoo Dragon Exemplar

Thinking Hands of the Wildling, Skin Hard as Horn, and Scar of the Survivor for the ikons

[rustic cape]

Does the Angel spell combination work with Shaman?

I thought it was Clerics and Oracles only

[turbid dagger]

Angel is all divine full casters, lich is any full arcane caster

[rustic cape]

Oh, huh. Could have sworn shaman, druid, arcanist, and witch were not included

Did they change it?

But yeah it would be quite good on druid or shaman since it adds a bunch of cleric spells

[steel blade]

all of them, honestly
callings are more of a roleplay/combat role based thing, so it would depend on how you play your character
destinies are mainly just a question of 'what kind of powerful being are you on the path to becoming', and except for wildspell(casters only) and beast lord(requires an animal companion), they're available to anyone

[frank crystal]

Man I really want to make a new line of feats specifically to buff fusion weapon gunslinger

[clever cobalt]

Maybe we'll get a better Gunslinger in the GnG remaster

[frank crystal]

When’s that?

[clever cobalt]

Dunno, but they announced it's in the works

[errant roost]

That's cool. I couldn't make heads or tails of the remaster plans, last time I checked people had a lot of conflicting information

[limber comet]

Early 2025

Feburary, iirc?

January actually

NPC core is coming in February

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[limber comet]

I imagine after a bit we'll get Battlecry info

I'm desperate to see the new iconics

[echo briar]

I’m desperate to learn the name of the book

Battlecry is just a placeholder

[errant roost]

maybe we'll finally get a tearbender kineticist

[echo briar]

it will be called “immortals of war”, as the books start going backwards

we’ll get elements of rage, dead of the book, and magic of secrets

[fossil temple]

Free healing
Just like that

"Ok the Kineticist was able to destory balance with his stupid tree, let's not do this again"
"Lol"
"Jeremy what are you doing"
"Lmao Exemplar"

He really feels like a martial class with lots of debuffs and 'active skills' if that makes sense

[warped orbit]

Transcend means it's an action cost mainly

[turbid dagger]

Barrow's Edge->Scar Of The Survivor loops do seem really potent

[wary yoke]

We have a protector tree kineticist in our Kingmaker game and he is legit the reason we have lived so long

[turbid dagger]

I really should give in and get protector tree on mine........

[echo briar]

add in the radiant to help your allies too

[wary yoke]

Those are the exact choices I'm making with my converted character

In 1E he was a Radiant Dawn Warlord, so I'm glad I can bring back incidental combat healing

Though he's also picking up Medic because the medicine skill is significantly more useful and interesting this edition

[limber comet]

I was talking in another pf2e server and Luis Loza appeared

Scared the hell outta me

[novel merlin]

he is risen

[surreal basin]

Anything interesting?

[tough barn]

Luis jumpscare

[echo briar]

So this feat https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5374 gives your weapons without reach reach. The exemplars compliant gold feat gives your weapons without reach reach, and gives your weapons with reach extra reach. If I have both, would stretching reach trigger first giving me reach that compliant gold improves, or would compliant gold trigger first making streaching reach not trigger?

[warped orbit]

I'd let you have both personally

[rustic cape]

Likewise

[thorny berry]

depends on the exact wording of compliant gold but stretching reach is pretty clear on 'the weapon gains a reach of 10 feet' and doesn't just 'act like it' or something, there's no non-stacking rules like with damage die size increases, so I'd say it's probably fine.

[echo briar]

The problem isn’t if it’s reach. It’s that it doesn’t grant reach if the weapon already has it

[wary yoke]

Hmm... Would it be worth it to dip into the Mauler Archetype on a two-handed Exemplar for advanced proficiency and critical specialization?

[turbid dagger]

Godddd
Exemplar Dedication is
Wild
I learned yesterday that uhhh
Well more realized
That immanences stack with Implements empowerment 💀
Shadow Sheath Chakram Thaumaturge casually waving around a weapon with d8+5 damage dice

I'm a lil astonished that they didn't do something like barbarian and thaum dedication where you get a shitty version of their class damage feature
Like instead of the normal immanence for your ikon you get 1 spirit damage or something

Also:
WE ARE GETTING A PF2E CRPG

Manifesting the last 1200 dollars with my brain

[warped orbit]

only if there's a particular advanced weapon you are looking at

[warped orbit]

yeah I really expected them to do the Thaum thing

where you get an ikon without any abilities at first

and a feat later for immanence and transcendence

rn it's probably the strongest dedication for basically anyone

one feat to get a powerful passive effect, and possibly a good transcend too

[clever cobalt]

Yep

[echo briar]

I'm banning it at my tables. It's luckily been errataed to rare

[warped orbit]

I don't really like the "but it's rare" bit
which like, yeah it's rare so the GM can just say no
but Paizo has kept saying rarity is not about power level
so that shouldn't be relevant either way

[turbid dagger]

That's honestly fair
It's good basically no matter what, and in a lot of situations is Heinous
Like the thaum thing I mentioned
Exemplar itself seems quite balanced

[warped orbit]

I'm also in general still not really that much a fan of Exemplar itself being rare, because I feel like that's a weird place for a whole class to be in

[limber comet]

Not particularly no, just clearing up that Horned Dragons in Monster Core aren't a catchall replacement for chromatic dragons

[surreal basin]

Makes sense

[turbid dagger]

I basically just disregard rarity honestly
If a gameplay element seems like it would break open the game I have planned either mechanically or narratively I don't really need an in-system tag to say I can ban it

[warped orbit]

yeah

[limber comet]

It's mostly so the gm can say "no this won't fit the game im running" with approval from Paizo

[turbid dagger]

Forager, for example, can basically nullify survival mechanics in a game where that might be important

[limber comet]

I'm okay with Exemplar being rare, I usually talk extensively with the GM before the game starts anyways

[surreal basin]

Yeah idk also like

You can ban stuff at your table regardless lol

I’m not gonna ban Exemplar Archetype mostly because it doesn’t seem like, game breaking, and while it’s more powerful than other multiclassing archetypes, they usually kinda suck tbh

[trail nova]

Pazio’s judgment of rarity for narrative weirdness is already really strange. Flight is fine for example, when it’s just as narrative/challenge warping as a lot of the others

[surreal basin]

Like any class that isn’t just a standard martial or caster, and has any kind of weird mechanic at all? Usually unusably bad for multiclassing

Like summoner is outright a trap option

[warped orbit]

I just find it a bit weird to put Exemplar in the rare box, when it's trivial to just flavor as a weird variant Champion or any number of other things instead

[trail nova]

And then there’s the whole issue for how narrative rarity is so Golarion centric

[warped orbit]

since mechanically they aren't really that egregious

[surreal basin]

In the end it doesn’t really matter

Rare doesn’t have any mechanical effects

For a class at least

[warped orbit]

well it technically does

[surreal basin]

?

[warped orbit]

rarity matters for Recall Knowledge

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah but you aren’t gonna be recalling knowledge on a party member lol

Regardless my point is it’s really a non-issue

[warped orbit]

it's ultimately not, it just kinda irks me

[surreal basin]

Anyway yeah to my original point, I’d rather exemplar archetype be pretty strong rather than uh

Terrible

I wouldn’t be surprised to see it get errata’d with the community reaction to it though regardless

[warped orbit]

I don't necessarily mind it being strong, but it is a weird outlier in terms of efectiveness rn

[surreal basin]

Fair

[warped orbit]

compared to basically all other archetypes

[surreal basin]

Probably could split immanence into a different feat

[warped orbit]

for the cost of one feat you can get any one of the following

• permanent extra +2 damage per weapon die
• permanent +1 AC aura
• permanent +1 attack bonus aura
• permanent -1 penalty to enemy attacks against you

[surreal basin]

Fair enough
Although it’s more like 3 feats if you ever want another archetype
I gotcha tho

Yeah it’s mostly the immanence that seems the issue

[warped orbit]

if it was just the transcend, that would be much more okay

since that's also more action intensive for non Exemplar, since you have to manually reinvest

[turbid dagger]

Yeah funnily exemplar really wants to transcend loop but archetype exemplar kind of wants to just sit on the immanence

Cuz your base class has other metastrikes and actions and such, and you don't have Epithets

[surreal basin]

Yeah
I’m just worried about them changing it to some shit like

“You get an ikon but not it’s immanence or transcend :3”

“Take a feat at level 10 to use its transcend once per day” looking ass

[turbid dagger]

yeahhhhh lmao

ASLO
YEAHHHHHHEHAHEAHHHHEAHHEAHEAHEHAH

[wary yoke]

Nodachi; my GM will let me get it with the human feat, but I was wondering if crit specialization is worth a few feats from archetype dipping

Exemplar gets it eventually, but isn't reliant on it because Immansnces replace it already, but does get an upgraded version

[warped orbit]

Sword crit spec is fine, but not super important

Unless you have a lot of ranged allies

[rustic cape]

I agree, a lot of multiclass archetypes are unnecessarily anemic at early levels in particular

[surreal basin]

[rustic cape]

Compare fighter archetype to dual-weapon warrior, for instance

[turbid dagger]

It's funny cuz fighter is actually one of the kickassingest multiclasses

Because so much of fighters strength is tied up in it's feats

Compare barbarian or magus
Which lean more on their class features

[rustic cape]

The trouble is that a lot of those feats are more readily accessible through more focused archetypes

[clever cobalt]

Also it has the requirmwnts of Str +2 and Dex +2

Which can be a bit hard to fulfill at times

[surreal basin]

Yeah it’s actually why it’s annoying that classes like summoner and exemplar usually have terrible dedications

Because their feats aren’t nearly as good

At least not for other classes

[rustic cape]

I still don't actually thinking nerfing archetype flurry in the way they did was strictly necessary

I dunno, 1d4 rounds is just so awkward

[novel merlin]

I wish it was just like 2 rounds

[rustic cape]

I think even 1 would be fine

[novel merlin]

Balance wise probably

[rustic cape]

You get to use it every other round

[novel merlin]

I just dislike RNG recharge on player options in general

[rustic cape]

Yeah

[novel merlin]

its dramatic when its a dragon breath recharge but when its like, kobold breath

cmon

[rustic cape]

It's also just a pain to track

[novel merlin]

nobody gets that excited when kobold breath comes back in 1 round

[rustic cape]

"Is it back yet? Uh, well I rolled a two, how many rounds ago was that ..."

Also I have this sinking feeling they nerfed it specifically to prevent Thieves with Monk archetype from using it but like

(a) whatever

(b) you have to do either shenanigans or not dump strength to do that

[novel merlin]

I think it was more because of how common it was as a 2-feat dip even without free-archetype

[rustic cape]

I guess

You could just require more substantial investment

[novel merlin]

For like animal barb it was totally worth 2 feats to get flurry

[rustic cape]

I feel like that's a prerequisites problem more than anything

I dunno.

Bleh

[trail nova]

On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, I’ve heard some horror stories about monster recharge rolls. 4e game that got stunlocked by a Dracolich rolling repeat 1s on its breath weapon

[surreal basin]

I do definitely like the barb/monk thing of like

Getting a slightly worse version of a core ability

That’s cool

[echo briar]

or the monk thing of getting a minor ability. if the exemplar dedication gave you humble strikes that would be cool

[surreal basin]

Tbh I think humble strikes would be cool as like
A feat anyone with martial weapon prof could take

[rustic cape]

Yeah that would track

[frank crystal]

I forget can you make more mage hands with upscaled mage hand? (I don’t remember the new name)

[sturdy drum]

urghh i want to really like War of Immortals

but damn

the book is janky as hell

and the way mythic monsters are designed really makes mythic unplayable at mid-high level

actually losing my mind because WoI has been something i've been waiting on for months and it came out this so half-fucking-baked

[rustic cape]

It seems like the big highlights are Animist and Exemplar, which is what I was most excited for by far

Oh, how's vindicator?

I haven't seen discussion of it

[sturdy drum]

bad

im gonna eat dinner first

i will brainrot about my disappointment later

[surreal basin]

I…. Don’t think mythic is that bad personally

There’s some edges that def neeed errata but that’s literally every Paizo book

[rustic cape]

And like let's be honest for most of us given the predominance of Foundry and Pathbuilder the physical objects are coffee-table books

[surreal basin]

I think the guidelines just need a lot of clarification personally and that’s about it

Because the existing monsters in the book seem fine but conflict w those guidelines

[rustic cape]

So stuff needing errata is whatever

[frank crystal]

The only thing I don’t like about the mythic monsters are the way they handle saves

Which is easy enough to modify

[rustic cape]

How do they handle saves?

tbh I'm thinking of cancelling my subscription and just buying pdfs like a normal person

[frank crystal]

I believe I saw they basically innately treat saves as if they had the incapacitation tag

[surreal basin]

Basically give incap to their best saves/certain saves
The guidelines suggest giving it to them for all saves past level like 16 but then the big monsters in the book don’t have them for everything

[frank crystal]

So they’re always rolling one step high

[surreal basin]

They don’t innately

It’s an ability you can give them

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

Then yah I just won’t do that

[surreal basin]

On a save by save basis

[rustic cape]

Yeah I don't like that

[frank crystal]

And strip it from the existing ones

[surreal basin]

And the implication is you’re supposed to give it to their best saves

[frank crystal]

I already don’t like incapacitation on existing abilities

[rustic cape]

Effects that need incap due to trivializing things already have incap

[frank crystal]

That just seems like overkill tbh

[surreal basin]

I mean sure but that’s the point I think

[rustic cape]

Overkill but also completely irrelevant

[surreal basin]

You’re never gonna catch the like

[rustic cape]

"Oh I won't target that save"

Is already a thing you say with bosses

[surreal basin]

Legendarily Reflexive creature crit failing a reflex save

Anyway I’ll probably run it like I run normal incap

[echo briar]

About as good as normal rangers, but more niche

[surreal basin]

Which is that they just can’t crit fail

[echo briar]

Which is not a bad spot for a class archetype

[rustic cape]

Tell me more, tell me more

[surreal basin]

And yeah imo vindicator is very different but not bad

They’re focused on spells

And spell casting

[rustic cape]

(Was he a heavy doper? Or was he just a loser?)

[echo briar]

Edge is +1 to attack rolls, and your foe gets -1 to saves against your spells

[surreal basin]

Their edge gives them a bonus to spell attacks and saves vs their hunted prey and they get spellcasting support

[frank crystal]

Does it not effect damage at all?

[surreal basin]

Beyond that of a normal ranger

No

[frank crystal]

Ah alright

[echo briar]

They get a focus spell that’s an attack roll for decent (but not great) damage that also lets you ignore concealment and get a damage boost on all your other attacks

[rustic cape]

Wait is it just spell attacks, or all attacks?

[surreal basin]

Spells

[echo briar]

Spell attacks

[rustic cape]

Okay

That seems solid

[echo briar]

It increases to +2/-2

[rustic cape]

Status bonus? Untyped?

I know untyped is very rare

[surreal basin]

I wanna say it’s status

[rustic cape]

That is less good

Still decent but

[surreal basin]

Can’t confirm that rn cause I’m lazy but I believe it to be

[rustic cape]

Appreciative of any information, no worries

[sturdy drum]

alright
The big problem with Vindicator is how much they rely on Vindicator's Mark to do damage. It's their main damage booster, much like how Precision lets Rangers do bonus damage and Flurry lets Rangers attack at less MAP. The problem is that their main damage booster is tied to a limited resource while also having a high chance of failure.

The other rangers can just put their hunt prey on someone and then they start doing big dick damage to that specific guy, and it's resourceless and costs only 1 action. Vindicator however needs 1 action to hunt prey and then 2 actions to cast Vindicator's Mark with a spell attack roll, which they are not very good at, and if they miss, then they just spent an entire turn having accomplished nothing and having also wasted a focus point, all so they could potentially do sub-Precision level damage

[rustic cape]

Oh it needs a spell attack to get started? That seems ... contradictory

Like if the point is to enable you being good at spell attacks

Why would you lock that behind a spell attack

[silver geyser]

So my question is simple: Is Vidicator suffering from Shifter Syndrome?

[echo briar]

No, the spell attack boost is not tied to its focus spell

[sturdy drum]

i never played 1e. what is shifter syndrome

[silver geyser]

Which is to say will I have to wait to buy the book until after a massive errata.

[echo briar]

Bonus damage on strikes is tied to its focus spell hitting.

[rustic cape]

Aha

Hm, still, not sure about that

If they also penalize saves maybe that would make more sense

And give it degrees of success

I dunno

[wary yoke]

Is there an actual list of WoI errata?

[sturdy drum]

there's a high risk of failure with casting the spell, and you only get the damage booster when it hits

unlike flurry or precision where they just hunt prey someone and they start doing more damage

[rustic cape]

It does feel like I keep hearing about the class archetypes being too conservative

That they want to do something different but they're worried about being good at it

[wary yoke]

I was really disappointed by Vindicator

[sturdy drum]

https://downloads.paizo.com/PZO12006AlternateMythicRules.pdf

the errata is in the end of the pdf

[sturdy drum]

Paizo has always been a bit too conservative really

but the other class archetypes are good

Bloodrager in particular is REALLY good

Vindicator is really the only disappointing bit of the 5

[rustic cape]

Really? I've heard that its action economy is somewhat suspect.

[sturdy drum]

it makes up for it by being incredibly competent at spellcasting with its level 10 feat

[clever cobalt]

I have mixed opinions on the Fighter Archetype admittedly

I think it may work best in a Mythic campaign mechanically

[sturdy drum]

i'd wanna play/run a mythic campaign, but as is it just seems unplayable at mid-high levels because of mythic resilience being a thing

[limber comet]

The fighter archetype is the only one I don't vibe with

[surreal basin]

That’s the saves thing right

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[limber comet]

All the other archetypes are pretty fun

[surreal basin]

It’s unclear if how it’s written is correct in all fairness

[clever cobalt]

Though tbf only the higher level ones are blanket mythic resilience

[turbid dagger]

I think the big thing that will make a lot of people go 'oh god' is
Its hunters edge is 'they get -1 to saves against your spells, and you get +1 to spell attack rolls against them'

[limber comet]

Seneschal is pretty cool

[clever cobalt]

Most only have one save that's Mythic

[surreal basin]

Not even the stat blocks provided have all 3 stats with resilient yeah

So I think they just messed up the guidelines

[clever cobalt]

Verex-That-Was does

But he's CR 24

[sturdy drum]

i do think Mythic Resilience is only meant to work against save effects made by non-mythic characters to keep it in line with Mythic Resistance

[clever cobalt]

Actually a lot of them just say "if it ain't mythic it won't work"

[surreal basin]

That would make sense and I think it should probably just be run like that

[clever cobalt]

On top of mythic resilience

[sturdy drum]

the way it's printed rn though is super problematic, cuz it means a PL+2 monster can only fail their lowest save on a 1

[surreal basin]

Regardless I don’t think it’s intentional that a high level creature gets incap on every save against mythic pcs

and it’s also easily fixable

[sturdy drum]

at least you could actually target Treerazer's or Fafnheir's saves, even if theyre CR 25 and 24

Verex and Oliphaunt though, the only way they can fail their lowest save is rolling a 1, and they cannot crit fail their saves at all

[clever cobalt]

It also largely works against Casters as opposed to Martials

[sturdy drum]

and Kineticists

[clever cobalt]

Since Martials are generally rolls and Casters use their Spell DCs more

And yeah

[surreal basin]

I think them not being able to crit fail is fine

But yes the only failing on a nat 1 thing sucks

Once again proving me big and smart for changing incap to only bump crit fails in my games :3

[solar tendon]

kinda feels more symmetrical

cause that's also what players get

that and evasion style things

[surreal basin]

Anyway mythic resilience is, imo, not problematic enough to throw away the whole system

It’s annoying and in need of a fix but said fix is also easy

[sturdy drum]

sort of, but not really
Rewrite Fate still costs a Mythic Point and there's no guarantee you will roll a higher save. Mythic Resilience is just always on and is always guaranteed to make the enemies's saves better. It's like 5e Legendary Resistance if it never ran out of uses

[surreal basin]

They were talking about my thing with regardless to symmetry

I believe

[sturdy drum]

yeah i could just homebrew a fix but i'd really prefer if the fix came from paizo themselves

[surreal basin]

I mean me too

But it is what it is for the time being

It’s not gonna happen til the errata wave I don’t think, since the errata we got from the house rules pdf was just really easy stuff

[novel merlin]

Gun exemplar... 🤤

[clever cobalt]

Ye Gun Exemplar is actually viable

[surreal basin]

Yeah it seems cool

The reload would be annoying but otherwise

[clever cobalt]

At least on paper; haven't played Exemplar enough to say if it's good

[novel merlin]

You could even use the double-barreled weapons to make the one ikon that requires 2 consecutive shots work

It definitely wont be the best exemplar build, or even particularly good compared to a gunslinger imo

but its cool and playable from first impression

Might actually be really solid for a gun + sword thing

[clever cobalt]

Gun God time

https://youtu.be/jEvOZAFZIFE?si=UHRef29eZJmQufrq

[sturdy drum]

we do have a deity now whose favored weapon is a gun

[clever cobalt]

Are they the KSBD God from Tian Xia

Yep they are

[surreal basin]

Oh which gun?

[frank crystal]

What’s the god?

[sturdy drum]

Srikalis, Sritaming, and Sribaril

their favored weapons are kris and arquebus

[frank crystal]

Ohhh

[sturdy drum]

we do have another one though

from the Triumph of Tusk AP

Wulgren

his favored weapon is the Barricade Buster

[clever cobalt]

That's cause he's the inventor of the Barricade Buster

[solar tendon]

omg what

[surreal basin]

[frank crystal]

Rad

[solar tendon]

he becomes a god???

[clever cobalt]

Yep

[sturdy drum]

champion who uses a gun

[sturdy drum]

oh yeah, on that topic
mythic rules let you ascend to divinity

one of the mythic destinies you can pick at lvl 12 is the Godling destiny, where you can pick out stuff like your domains as well as favored weaponry and start your own church/faith

[surreal basin]

Ngl

They fucking cooked with player facing mythic stuff

[limber comet]

I'm still mad there's no archfey/elder elemental mythic destiny

Well, "mad"

[surreal basin]

Time to make your own :3

[limber comet]

Very mildly disappointed is more accurate

TRUE

Or just wait until WoI goes publicly live, cause Pathfinder Infinite tends to go bananas after a new release

[sturdy drum]

theyre still making more

paizo seems intent on supporting mythic down the line

cuz there is another mythic destiny in the next book that was confirmed

[limber comet]

Mortal Herald is a mythic destiny?

[sturdy drum]

yeah

it's a mythic destiny

idk what it does

[limber comet]

I thought it was just an archetype

[sturdy drum]

you're thinking of battle herald

[limber comet]

I mean no, I just figured it would be stepping on godling's narrative toes

As well as Ascended Celestial

Anyways my favorite mythic destiny is either Eternal Legend or Wildspell

[sturdy drum]

i like prophecized monarch

[limber comet]

Also a really good one

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah so

Mythic Resilience is a Choice

Between that and mythic resistance, which is increasing resistance to all damage

They’ll always get mythic resilience on one save though

By level 13

But that’s one save

And on their already highest save

[clever cobalt]

I like Eternal Legend and Godling

[surreal basin]

Also multiple of the mythic templates make it so they can’t get mythic resilience for one of their saves

[solar storm]

Yeah I think the issue of Mythic Resiliance is a little overblown

But equally I'm not really sure which version of Mythic Resiliance should be used

I think there's multiple versions in the book

[surreal basin]

I’m a little worried about justifying all the mythic stuff in my campaign lol

[limber comet]

I mean there are a few mythic monsters in non-mythic campaigns in 1e

So try not to stress too much

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah that’s fair I’m just like

Hmmm

So, in theory, mythic stuff in my setting is powered by the belief and energy of the public unconsciousness - I think that would still work with this system, just that the players are becoming more mythic as their legend spreads?

• I’m thinking of justifying some kind of plot reason for that in world mechanic being more powerful

Than usual

[limber comet]

That's implied in a lot of the base flavor already so I say go for it

Like, a ton of the mythic destinies are empowered if people tell your tale

[surreal basin]

• being empowered by the dimension of 'human' dreams that underlies reality

similar to uhhh

persona

[limber comet]

Mementos moment

[surreal basin]

and then in my coming campaign, a lot of the bad guy's forces are actively being empowered by him, because he has the ability to manipulate mythic power

im probably gonna heavily modify mythic to
remove rewrite fate
keep hero points
go alongside free archetype

[sturdy drum]

funnily enough paizo doesnt even follow their own rule here. the mythic gogiteth statblock has mythic resilience in their moderate and low saves but not in their high save, so the caster might as well not be hitting any save anyway

[surreal basin]

lol

yeah this could have used another pass probably

oh well its not a huge deal

tbh my current fix for mythic in general is to:
remove it replacing hero points and rewrite fate wholesale

[sturdy drum]

you can still have hero points in mythic. it's a variant rule

[surreal basin]

since every calling and multiple feats give the ability to roll stuff with mythic prof

rewrite fate feels really ancillery to me

[warped orbit]

From what I read, it seems kinda the opposite
You could spend a point to make a skill check at Mythic prof
Or you could just make the check, and if you fail reroll it with Mythic prof

[surreal basin]

yeah sorry i mean it seems like rewrite is a uh

afterthought with unintended consequences that make it the best choice

[fossil temple]

Unfalling Bow seems great for a crit fishing build, damn

[warped orbit]

the transcend?
kind of I guess
it basically just means you sometimes guaranteed hit your MAP attack if you know the enemy AC

[light gyro]

looking into time magic bullshit options; this line from the time mage archetype tickled me:

If you already knew delay consequence from a feat or ability that allows you to gain your choice of domain spell, such as Domain Initiate, then when you take this feat, you can retrain that option to gain a different domain spell instead as your personal timeline rearranges itself.

[light gyro]

was looking at classes with good class DC's - chronostutter commander sounds pretty nuts

[rustic cape]

Thinking about it, it might be fun to do sort of a Strength of Thousands thing with free archetype, but it has to be exemplar

Exalted game

[sturdy drum]

exalted would be a mythic game where everyone is a godling

[steel blade]

ehhhhh exalted isnt about becoming a god necessarily

iirc ascended celestial is actually the closest destiny to Solar shenanigans

exalted is just mythic shit in general

[frank crystal]

Hmm, y’all think unarmed or even brawling armor inventor could be viable?

It’s just a really cool image

[solar tendon]

for sure

you can take a pretty nice buff to athletics as an inovation bonus

[frank crystal]

Oh yah just permanent +1 and eventually a +2

Though it is a circumstance bonus which isn’t the best

[turbid dagger]

Armor Inventor is probably best served as unarmed tbh
Take wrestler and get a good ancestry attack like Lizardfolk Razor Claws

[frank crystal]

Kholo inventor strongest

[turbid dagger]

Crunch is nice, by all means go that way
I default to razor claws for Agile

[frank crystal]

Yah another good choice tbh

I forget, how are Minotaur horns?

Maybe another good option

[turbid dagger]

Easier application of overdrive and boost, and it lets you chain stuff like snagging strike, combat grab, elbow breaker, so on

[frank crystal]

Also I assume this is only really for power armor builds

And the subterfuge suit probably does just want a weapon

[turbid dagger]

IIRC they're a solid d8 attack, horns

[frank crystal]

Kinda sucks there’s no feats to improve them until level 9 with goring charge

And that’s just sudden charge with some extra bleed damage

[solar tendon]

circumstance is alright on athletics I think

[frank crystal]

Yah it’s definitely not as common as like a circumstance bonus to hit at least

[echo briar]

My ranking of every animist spirit: ``` Note, I will not be ranking the lores or the avatar, because they are mostly equal.

Crafter in the Vault
Apparition Spells: 3/5. Mostly situational utility spells, but they aren't on the divine list. Wall of metal is a standout option
Vessel Spell:2/5 The main thing this does is make you trained in crafting and thievery, both of which scale as you level. these aren't the greatest skills, but when you use them you usually have the time to cast this spell before hand. Main problem is that crafting needs feat investment to actually be useful, and this does not help with that.```

Apparition Spells: 3/5. protector tree is very good, and all the late game spells are very good. The stuff in the middle however are not so good, and sometimes just worse than your focus spell
Vessel Spell: 4/5 in combat, this is great, although risky due to healing enemies, but you can end it before enemies can benefit or move away before sustaining it. Out of combat this is a beast and heals 10d4 hp every 10 minuets to all allies at level 1. You don't need medicine with this.```

[rustic cape]

Oh shit Groves and Gardens gets Protector Tree now?

Also very appreciative of this, as an animist-lover

Scaling Thievery training is situationally useful I suppose

Does Groves and Gardens get Dancing Fountain still?

[echo briar]

Apparition Spells: 5/5. Dispel magic, vision of death, phantasmal calamity, foresight, and one of the most busted spells in the game quandary? there are no bad spells here, and some absolute bangers. 
Vessel Spell: 1/5. You spend an action to gain an extra reaction that can only be used for animist or apparition reactions. As rouge proves, if there where good animist reactions you could use every round this could be 5/5. There are no good animist reactions.```

[echo briar]

no

[rustic cape]

Did they get rid of the reactions that cause rerolls?

[warped orbit]

I think the Crafter focus spell might be meant for disarming hazards

[rustic cape]

Those were pretty good

Also oh-shit upcastable dispel magic is huge

Echo of Lost Moments is going on my animist

[rustic cape]

Spiritual Guidance and ... can't remember the name of the other one

I think it forced an enemy to reroll an attack

I mean those are 1 per 10 minutes

So not sure those make it worth considering

But they are good

[echo briar]

the only animist reactions are usable every 10 minutes, one that requires you're familiar to be attacked, and one that requires that you are hidden. when are 2 of these being triggered in a round?

[rustic cape]

Ah, so they nixed those two. Targic.

But yeah I mean those don't make it worth it.

Although you might have reactions from something else

So it's not completely worthless

Just ... mostly worthless

[echo briar]

Apparition Spells: 3/5. None of these are bad, but outside of invisibility and phantasmagoria, none of them are great. Although phantasmagoria is so good that if you get to that point, this becomes a 4/5. Why doesn't this get illusionary disguise? 
Vessel Spell: 3/5. Very powerful effect, but with a 5 foot emanation it is extremely risky, but if any caster can make it work its the d8 medium armor animist.```

[rustic cape]

I haven't been able to get off Impostor's vessel spell as a backline caster, but I think it might be handy on like ... I dunno a front-line medium?

Also yeah I hadn't looked at phantasmagoria but uh

That is strong

That is a strong spell

[frank crystal]

What’s the spell?

[rustic cape]

9th level, 16d6 any number of targets within range of your choice, no reactions until next turn on a successful save, confusion until next turn on failed save

[frank crystal]

That’s really fucking good

[rustic cape]

120 foot range

120 foot range, no friendly fire, unlimited targets

[echo briar]

Apparition Spells 4/5. very good spells throughout, although a lot of them are damage based and need to be heightened. also first good combat cantrip, which is important as the divine list doesn't have a ton of those so you want to poach them early game
Vessel Spell 3/5 This thing is just weird. at rank 1, it's a decent grapple tool. At rank 2-4, it turns you into a shark, which is really good unless you need to breath air, because it can not breath air. then at rank 5 onwards you can turn into a water elemental, which is good until rank 7 when it stops heightening. At least the grapple build still works then.```

[rustic cape]

More damage-dealing spells is something I felt a real desire for, so that looks great

[echo briar]

I delt 300 damage one time with phantasmagoria thanks to the confusion

[rustic cape]

I believe it

And of course "need to be heightened" is less of a burden for animist than for some

[echo briar]

which also prevented like 200 damage on my allies

[rustic cape]

Since apparition spells let you do whatever

I guess you throw on Impostor in Hidden Places at level 17 >_>

Glad to hear Lurker is good

And Echo, for spells at least

[echo briar]

Apparition Spells: 2/5. Lots of incapacitation, some decent spells late game that bring this up to 3/5, but the early game is rough.

Vessel Spell: 5/5. Hey, you know how I just said I delt 300 damage with phantasmagoria due to the confusion? do you want to do that every round, with no risk of the target hitting you? well, do I have a spell for you. All enemies (not allies, no friendly fire) that enters a 10 ft emanation or starts their turn there must make a save or be confused, and while confused they can not harm you. It's incapacitation, but this is just stupidly good against anything that isn't a boss fight.```

[rustic cape]

oooooooooooh

Really nice for adds

Also pleased to see a fey spirit, conceptually

[echo briar]

Apparition Spells: 3/5 you get laughing fit, which is an incredible spell. But everything else before 7th rank. After 7th rank this is a 4/5, as all of these spells are great, especially quandary.  
Vessel Spell: 4/5. It's mirror image the focus spell, what more could you want. Weakness to AoEs, but deals some minor damage when they miss.```

[rustic cape]

Yeah, the Reveler vessel spell is crazy

This looks great so far, looks like there are some genuine decisions to make

[echo briar]

Apparition Spells 3/5. There's not a ton to say. These are all decent spells, but not incredible. 
Vessel Spell: ?/5. From ranks 1-4, this is a 4/5. from ranks 5-6, this is a 3/5. At ranks 7+, this is a 0/5 as it stops heightening, unless you get a feat at level 16 (so halfway though rank 8) that let's it heighten until rank 9 making it a 5/5, but then at rank 10 it stops heightening making it a 0/5 again. Just give us dragon form from a feat or something to fill that weird hole in the progression.```

Apparition Spells: 4/5. Fireball, wall of stone, what more do you want. Lots of spells need heightening though. 
Vessel Spell: 4/5 good 1 action damage. somewhat low range but it's at least 30 feat```

[warped orbit]

Did they close the loophole of sustaining/casting multiple instances (forgot which one it was) of the Steward focus spells

[echo briar]

Apparition Spells: 3/5. again, nothing is bad, but nothing stands out, although my lack of primal experience may be showing here. 
Vessel Spell: 3/5. You move a lot, and leave difficult terrain. In some combats this is 5/5, in some it is 1/5.```

[rustic cape]

Yes

[echo briar]

yes

[rustic cape]

Steward is gonna continue to be a good standby for everybody, cool

[echo briar]

Apparition Spells: 4/5 true target, enlarge, phantasmal calamity, and sure strike are the standouts here, with everything else just being ok. 
Vessel Spell 4/5. You become a decent martial, and a bad caster, but that's better than the X form spells which make you a decent martial and not a caster at all. Unless you are playing a ABP game, you will need fully runed weapons, making this spirit require way more investment than the others.```

and thats it. If I get board again I will rank every ikon

[rustic cape]

Excellent, thanks

Still sad they didn't include a storm spirit loaded up with ice and lightning spells

[echo briar]

my lack of experience with primal spells is probably showing. I've played every other caster before over a campaign, but not primal

[rustic cape]

I imagine Vanguard still gets Dancing Fountain?

It's a good sustain

[limber comet]

We'll probably get more spirits

Eventually, anyways

[echo briar]

yes

[echo briar]

In my opinion, no

[rustic cape]

Yeah, I think so, they're pretty easy to add

[limber comet]

They teased a dragon spirit in a blog post from forever ago

[rustic cape]

Ooo

[limber comet]

Same blog post also mentioned Lurker and Reveler

[rustic cape]

I'm not gonna lie I'm going to have a hard time convincing myself not to play an animist for a while

So

More is good

[limber comet]

I think these classes are pretty rad

[turbid dagger]

Exemplar is soooooooo cool
Like god damn I love the Loops
My brain is a Loop Based Brain

[limber comet]

I'm mostly a flavor connoisseur

And man do both of these knock it out of the park

[turbid dagger]

My Sparkling Targe Magus is a west march I'm in is gonna become an Exemplar when Godsrain happens 😌

[limber comet]

I love the fact that the shield ikon is worn, not weapon

I mean, duh

But y'know

[rustic cape]

re: damage, are we talking various water blast spells or is there cold or void or other good stuff?

[echo briar]

Ranking every Ikon. Note, I am not ranking usage, as it only matters for weapons, and even then I think they are mostly equal. Also I am copying and pasting and unlike spirits, all Ikons are written in all caps BANDS OF IMPRISONMENT Immanence:4/5 bonus to will saves and mental resistance. useful. Transcendence: 2/5. This is useful if you need to escape, and sudden charge at the same time. If you don't need to escape, this is just sudden charge. If you want to attack the thing you are escaping from, this is just +2 to your escape.

[echo briar]

cold and acid

[rustic cape]

ooooh

Thanks

[echo briar]

Immanence: 3/5. deals low extra damage, but becomes much higher if the target is bloodied, and you know when the target is bloodied. Slightly worse than the normal weapon immanence overall, but has its uses. 
Transcendence: 5/5 lots of healing, but its based on you're weapons damage. If you are using a low damage die weapon, are dex based, or just aren't invested into damage this could be as low as 2/5.```

[clever cobalt]

How does the Dex Exemplar look?

[echo briar]

decent

[warped orbit]

throwing Exemplar is still very good I think

[clever cobalt]

Admittedly I was thinking a Dueling Spear Noble Branch exemplar

If that matterrs

[warped orbit]

probably alright

[echo briar]

Immanence: 4/5. Makes you very sticky, forcing enemies to make a will save to move away from you or lose the action.
Transcendence: 3/5. Move an enemy towards you for an action. use this as your first action and then empower your weapon ikon.```

Immanence: 4/5. enemies get -1 to melee attack against you. pretty good. 
Transcendence: 1/5. Fascinated. Need I say more? you're hostile actions don't break it, but your allies can still break it. ```

How good do the devs think fascinated is? they consistently treat it as if its very strong, but its so easy to break its almost worthless in combat

[warped orbit]

yeah I don't really get it

and it only really does anything if they rely on concentrate actions

[echo briar]

Immanence: 3/5. bonus to perception and against ranged attacks. have this on when you roll initiative.
Transcendence: 2/5. one action, deal bonus damage on your next attack. It's not a ton, but it can last until the end of your next turn which is something.```

[warped orbit]

body ikons feel in a weird spot to me, because it feels like a lot of them are kinda meh in either immanence or transcend
unless there are some great new ones in the release

[echo briar]

Immanence: 4/5. Standard weapon ikon damage
Transcendence: 5/5. double strike, but for two handers. if you have a low weapon die or otherwise deal low damage, this is much lower. If you're dual wielding, just get double slice.```

[warped orbit]

Gleaming Blade is so good

only downside is being limited to swords and knives

[echo briar]

Immanence: 2/5 1 splash damage. not great. can trigger weaknesses. 
 Transcendence: 3/5. Attack everything in a 15 foot cone. You can become off guard to make it more likely to land.```

[solar storm]

I think Exemplar is kind of thrust towards a quality build generally

Since their kind of butt armor prof means you need dex anyway

[warped orbit]

they do have medium now

so you have breastplates at least

[solar storm]

That is a pretty good improvement yeah

[echo briar]

Additional ability: make potions and elixirs every day, and can put them and other fluids in the horn. 
Immanence: 4/5. draw and drink something in the horn as 1 action. Why don't alchemists have this?
Transcendence: 4/5 draw and give the effect of something in your horn as 1 action. why don't alchemists have this?```

like seriously, quick bomber is a thing, why do exemplars get elixir action compression this but not alchemists?

[warped orbit]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[echo briar]

1 action quick alchemy or draw, drink or administer. this is still worse than the transcendence because its not ranged.

[warped orbit]

there is a post on the reddit today that's basically "yeah Exemplar archetype is probably busted, but Horn of Plenty and Shadow Sheathe "fix" Alchemist and throwing builds, so who can say whether its good or bad"

[echo briar]

Immanence: 3/5 you and everyone around you gets ac and a bonus to reflex. Instantly repair your shield after 10 minuets. 
Transcendence: 5/5. you and one ally gain the benefits of the Immanence for 1 minuet, and a bonus against more saves. use this at the start of the combat and you will never need to use this Ikon for the rest of the combat.```

[warped orbit]

what

does require you to have a shield I guess

can you use this one with Bucklers too?

[echo briar]

yes

[steel blade]

you're hostile actions don't break it

The condition ends if you use a hostile action against the target, but not if you use a hostile action against its allies.

i had eye-catching spot on my playtest exemplar and while the -1 to melee attacks against you feels nice, the fascinate is ass

they didnt change it at all either

[echo briar]

correct. but everything else was so bad I didn't need to include it

there is a way for you (but not your allies) to not break it, which is at least something.

[steel blade]

leaning towards replacing it with mirrored aegis when my group gets back to that game(we stopped to do Prey for Death while waiting on WoI to release), but I also want to have an ikon of each type and I already have thousand-league sandals so im not sure

[surreal basin]

Fascinated is so confusing that sometimes I wonder if like

There’s an aspect of it the devs understand that isn’t communicated well

[turbid dagger]

.........I did not notice Aegises transcend lasted ONE MINUTE until now

[surreal basin]

If it didn’t break on targeting their allies it could have use tho

[clever cobalt]

Holy shit Aegis is really good yeah

Never really looked at it

I don't think you even need to be using the shield either

[turbid dagger]

Debating heavily between Brave and Proud for epithets
Shieldxemplar really needs some movement action compression but being able to do taunts while handing out AOE defense buffs sounds really good
This would be easily solved if I took Champion ded for Defensive Advance but alas uhh
The character I plan to rework is not religious

[clever cobalt]

Can you be a Champion of yourself if you're a Godling

[surreal basin]

I believe that’s called an exemplar ;p

[turbid dagger]

God
I'm actually gnawing at the bars of my cage about defensive advance
Hoping someone converts my char to a religion

Any religion 😭

[clever cobalt]

Atheism

[wary yoke]

I like Vow of Mortal Defiance because it is perfect for my character but I'm realizing I'm rarely going to use it in the campaign he's in

[turbid dagger]

You cant be a champ of that 😔

[clever cobalt]

It's a very fluff-heavy choice but it sucks it's not very viable in the long run compared to sanctification

I'd totally use it if it were more viable

[wary yoke]

Partly due to our overall setting having very few outsiders, partly due to the GM's opinion that our gods, due to their origin and scope, should lack sanctification, and partly due to the fact that undead, which are unholy by default, are rarely going to show up in this campaign because we have bigger problems if an undead touches the surface of the nation were in

[clever cobalt]

Fair

[wary yoke]

Lol, out setting got around that by having a philosophy behind dystheism/humanism that just so happens to be empowered by someone who is totally not a god.

Because gods are immortal, and this one passes the mantle along once a generation.

However, none of the champion ideals quite fit my current character, though Obedience would fit one particular school of the philosophy

... Though a player wanting to play a champion of that branch of philosophy would sort of be a red flag

[steel blade]

im debating picking up champ dedication when i rebuild my exemplar tbh
defensive advance would fill a similar roll to thousand-league sandals, so i could swap those for mirrored aegis and then swap eye-catching spot for scar of the survivor or skin hard as iron
biggest question is what cause to pick, considering my dude's main deity is Kurgess Grandeur and Justice both kind of fit

and currently that exemplar has gladiator dedication, mainly for backstory reasons, but mechanically it's come up like once in the 5 or 6 sessions we've had since i picked it up, and that was because i basically went out of my way to get into an arena fight

[wary yoke]

I like Thousand-League Sandals because it's a free stride for my team

And I'm taking that to rebuild my Warlord who could do that, lol

[steel blade]

ye, thats the main reason i have it tbh, but, mirrored aegis is solid, and i wanna have a body ikon so i can take Gift of the Immortal Herb eventually (that group is currently level 3, so it's a ways off)

and eye-catching spot is trash

granted, i guess, if i do take champion dedi, instead of mirrored aegis i can just take shields of the spirit

still swap eye-catching spot for one of the other body ikons though

[wary yoke]

What about the scar?

[steel blade]

ye, im between scar of the survivor and skin hard as iron

[wooden orbit]

Did I miss the time mage in WoI?

[clever cobalt]

I think it's from DA

[warped orbit]

yeah

[wary yoke]

I was paging through GM Core last night and was surprised to find that about half the diseases listed are real and not just fantasy plagues

[echo briar]

Immanence: 3/5. 1 persistent damage. combos well with energized spark to stack the damage by making it different types.
Transcendence: 4/5. one action, attack two creatures and stride half your speed. However it is literally unusable against solo bosses, so until you get an alternative transcendence it is a 2/5```

Immanence: 4/5. standard weapon Immanence. 
Transcendence: 4/5. retroactively make an attack a power attack. Can not miss. with a low damage die weapon, this can go as low as 2/5. ```

Immanence: 3/5. Resistance to a type of energy damage, chosen each day, and environmental protections.
Transcendence: 3/5 Change the type of damage the Immanence protects against, and provides you and allies a boost to ac and saves against those effects. This greatly reduces how much prep work you need to do to make this useful.```

[wooden orbit]

Oh!

[clever cobalt]

I think with my Kholo Mythic Exemplar I'm gonna go Scar of the Survivor/Pelt of the Beast/Barrow's Edge

With a Spirit Thresher as my Weapon Ikon

[wooden orbit]

I’m really digging Seneschal, and Bloodrager for WoI’s new archetypes

That or like a fighter animist

[echo briar]

Immanence: 3/5. Diehard is weird, but a bonus to fort saves is really good. 
Transcendence: 5/5. a 1 action heal you can do every other round forever. heal out of combat in like 30 seconds.```

[clever cobalt]

Yeah Scar is worth taking purely for the transcendence

[wary yoke]

I would like the immanence effect a lot more if it auto-switched as you went unconscious

[warped orbit]

the Scar immanence is pretty meh IMO

[echo briar]

Bonus effect: Infinite thrown weapons that share runes. 
Immanence: 6/5. free action draw a thrown weapon whenever you attack, and the standard weapon ikon immanence, and it increases to +3 whenever you attack a flat footed creature. throw in the bonus effect here and this single handedly makes thrown builds work.
Transcendence: 4/5. retroactively make your first attack a feint instead. never miss again.```

[warped orbit]

it's really just about the transcend

[echo briar]

+1 to fort is good.

[warped orbit]

Shadow Sheath does seem pretty goated

[echo briar]

3/5 good, but good.

[clever cobalt]

With Barrow's Edge you can effectively heal every turn

which is very useful as a frontliner

[errant roost]

the exemplar archetype only gets one Ikon, right? how does transcendence work with that?

[warped orbit]

you need to manually reinvest

[clever cobalt]

They can uyse Transcendence but they gotta reactivate it befoe using it agian

yeah

[warped orbit]

though you can get a second ikon from the archetype later

[echo briar]

Immanence: 3/5 resistance to a physical damage type you chose each day. If you know what you are fighting against each day, and they deal mostly 1 type of physical damage, this could be a 4/5, or even a 5/5. However that's going to be rare. 
Transcendence: 3/5 get more resistance until the start of your next turn, and if an enemy misses you they become off guard and take a penalty to attacks. This also triggers if an enemy hits you but deals no damage, but thats almost never going to occur.```

[clever cobalt]

Actually hmm

Dunno if I wanna go Barrow's Edge with a Spirit Thresher, or Gleaming Blade with a Greatsword

[warped orbit]

I really wish swords had a better 2h selection

[clever cobalt]

Same

[warped orbit]

it's basically just the bastard sword, and the nodachi kinda

[echo briar]

Immanence: 2/5 use athletics maneuvers against larger creatures, and get a bonus to do so. However, you can get this elsewhere. 
Transcendence: 2/5 2 actions, stride once and move an ally with you. It's not useless, but its at best 1 of your actions for 1 of theirs, which is not a great trade for an exemplar. ```

[clever cobalt]

Bastard Sword is even only there in a technicality

Since it's technically 1h d8 with TH d12

[turbid dagger]

One of my pals is planning on a nodachi barrows edge/scar of the survivor exemplar, excited to see how it shakes out
Especially once they get compliant gold

[steel blade]

after you transcend the spark is just out until you shift immanence again

[warped orbit]

actually....
the kusarigama is a knife

[turbid dagger]

Seems like to very different builds between mine and theirs, which is cool

[warped orbit]

if it's your only ikon, ie you are Exemplar archetype, yes

if you are a full Exemplar, it goes into a different ikon

[steel blade]

i didnt scroll down far enough

but yeah i was talking about the archetype

[clever cobalt]

That's generally a good sign

[warped orbit]

that might actually be one of the better 2h Gleaming Blade choices

and actually gets you some good tags

especially with Disarm no longer being dead

[turbid dagger]

Honestly just
Running around with a greatsword seems best for gleaming blade
Or bastard sword but same diff

[warped orbit]

bastard sword is probably the go to, yes

[turbid dagger]

Double slice with two d12+2s

[warped orbit]

it's just... boring if you aren't doing a free hand build

it has nothing

[steel blade]

i need to figure out what i'm gonna be doing with my playtest exemplar when i rebuild him, weapon-wise, cause currently he has both gleaming blade(w/ a wish blade) and barrow's edge(w/ a relic katar that does fire damage), but the gm has said that since she likes mythic, when we go back to that game we're dropping the relics we have for mythic stuff

(the gm gave me barrow's edge as a free additional ikon when i got the relic katar; dunno how that'll shake out when we swap to mythic though)

[clever cobalt]

Actually there is one thing I'm curious about with a Godling Exemplar

[wary yoke]

Same, lol

[clever cobalt]

This feat makes a Weapon of your choice Simple. Does this proc the Exemplar Simple Weapon buff?

It's a level 16 feat but

[turbid dagger]

Good ol 'for the purposes of proficiency'

[warped orbit]

it's only simple for purposes of proficiency

[turbid dagger]

So no

[clever cobalt]

Ah fair

My bad

If only...

[turbid dagger]

Nah its all good, easy to miss

[warped orbit]

there is a feat to get another ikon I believe, so you could just take that

[wary yoke]

Though I'd be using nodachi regardless because it was what the character used in 1E, when it was one of the best martial two-handed weapons

[clever cobalt]

Nodachi seems decent if you can crit imo

Otherwise it's just kind of a worse polearm

[warped orbit]

it's mostly because brace is a pretty clunky tag, but takes up most of the budget
but it still works fine mostly

[wary yoke]

The OOC reason the character used in in 1E was actually that it counted as both a heavy blade and a polearm

[clever cobalt]

Neat

[wary yoke]

So I'm just happy with reach and a brace skill that actually does something

[clever cobalt]

Dunno how viable a Nodachi would be as a Barrow's Edge. As it's an action to proc the Transcendence

And fair

Just my 2 cents I suppose

[surreal basin]

Nodachi is the reach sword yeah?

[warped orbit]

yeah

the only 2h sword with reach

[surreal basin]

Then it gets points in my book just for being a reach weapon that’s not a polearm

[clever cobalt]

I'm probably gonna go with ole' reliable (a greatsword)

[surreal basin]

Yknow I would love to see a game like pathfinder one day that acknowledges that stuff like great swords also have a significant reach advantage lol

[warped orbit]

the perception people have of greatswords is unfortunately too different for that by now

[wary yoke]

Transcendence crit execution with a barrows edge nodachi though...

Fantasy Craft does it!

[steel blade]

it's 8th level, i'm only level 3

im not really concerned with having both of them, just, trying to decide between gleaming blade and barrow's edge tbh

[echo briar]

Immanence: 3/5 1 splash damage. you at least have slightly more control as this is a ranged weapon. 
Transcendence: 3/5. Make an attack in a AoE. Large creatures take a penalty to this so its not terrible against a high level large single boss.```

[wary yoke]

And as someone who was doing a first-time read-through of PF2E mentioned, it feels like PF2E cribbed a lot of things from Fantasy Craft

[warped orbit]

I'd probably give it to Gleaming Edge Blade first
it's just super solid

[wary yoke]

Even though the games have a big publication time difference

[steel blade]

you combined their names

[errant roost]

I really like the image of the two-handed haft-fighting feat from WoI just because it's a big part of how people would really fight with long/greatswords

[clever cobalt]

I'm sad the Haft Fighting feat isn't very good for Fighters

Cause the haft counts as a Club, which fucks with how Fighters scale

[turbid dagger]

The one that only works for spears, pole arms, and hammers? 😭

[errant roost]

oh no :( I've fallen prey to rules telephone

[turbid dagger]

Not even axes .......

[errant roost]

(arguably "grab your sword like a hammer" is one of those things that shouldn't even be a feat, because it probably falls under "trained and proficient with the weapon," but we live in a society game)

[clever cobalt]

Mechanics

It is actually a level 10 feat for the Lastwall Sentry to give all weapons Versatile B

[warped orbit]

yeah they really should let that one work for swords too

[wary yoke]

I remember in 1E there was a combat feat to be able to switch damage type of a weapon, I always wanted to make a greatsword fighter that used it

But damage type didn't really come up much past a certain level

[fossil temple]

I made a discovery

[echo briar]

why is the space between fracture and mountains so big

[wooden orbit]

Because there's uhh...a mountain between them? -awkward drum snare-

[echo briar]

Transendance-Fracture Mountains

[warped orbit]

the original starwalker

[limber comet]

I have a character idea but idk if it's any good

Tengu Hungerseed Exemplar, kanabo ikon

[clever cobalt]

Explain

[limber comet]

I thought it would be cool if their "calling" was to topple the oni empire in Chu Ye

[eager mountain]

thats the anime esque long scream your suposed to do between words

when saying your moves

[limber comet]

Also little rules stumble, I thought that this would work for humble strikes

But alas

Proficiency strikes again

Kanabo still might be cool tho

[surreal basin]

Yeah there’s no way to actually change the proficiency a weapon requires

If you want the dice increase for a simple weapon you gotta use a simple weapon, easy as

[limber comet]

I thought I was so clever!!!

But the character idea is still cool

I'm gonna stick with it

[clever cobalt]

Just fluff a Maul as a Kanabo

[limber comet]

Ehh fair enough

[turbid dagger]

What would people tec for alternate Transcends for Mortal Harvest? So far, Blinding of the Needle seems like your best bet
For filling the niche of single target fight transcends

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/bobawooyo-dog-confused-dog-huh-dog-meme-shocked-dog-gif-4333601888872373336

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

Lemme get the passage

[eager mountain]

like ... the devourer from starfinder?

[clever cobalt]

@eager mountain

[eager mountain]

wow

interesting

[clever cobalt]

Page 7, if it matters

[surreal basin]

Extremely suprisingly apperantly not spoilers for prey for death lol

(this is not an invitation to give me spoilers for prey for death)

[clever cobalt]

Fwiw there are some vague spoilers in the book for PfD

Just letting you know

Regardless

[surreal basin]

Fair but it seems like the kinda thing where you won’t recognize it unless you already know

[clever cobalt]

I think it says a lot that Belkzen is one of the calmer nations with all this happening

In terms of how they're fairing post-Godsrain and into the War of Immortals

Also Exemplars are a lot more common in the setting than I expected

[surreal basin]

Oh? Do we have a figure on that?

[clever cobalt]

They're not regular class common, but a lot of people still got Exemplar powers

Nothing concrete, but we know Hundreds got Exemplar powers in Radaouhn, for example

And that's just one nation

Lots of other lore development

Like Walkena got empowered and is soon gonna make an attempt at conquering/destroying Vidrain

[surreal basin]

Ngl was kinda hoping he’d die

[clever cobalt]

I mean he's now in prime Campaign Antagonist mode

[solar tendon]

did

[clever cobalt]

Killing him offscreen seems weird

[solar tendon]

anything actually happen with the sun

[clever cobalt]

Not yet

Though tbf

[solar tendon]

fair

[eager mountain]

I doubt i could give spoilers for it

[clever cobalt]

The Stolen Fate prophecies specifically reference Adventure Paths

So I'm not surprised

Having said that, keep an eye on the sun

Or don't that's bad for your eyes

Oh another lore development I like is uh

Some people in Razmiran got Exemplar powers and challenged Razmir

Razmir in part just ignores that

Which in turn invited more suspicion that he's afraid of ghem

[frank crystal]

you cant tell me what to do!

[clever cobalt]

Also Lastwall got fucked again but what else is new

A bunch of Knights got reanimated as undead

And now the Undead know the tactics and plans of Lastwall

[turbid dagger]

Razmir is, curiously
Also one of the people cited in the Godling Mythic Path intro text
All the mythic paths have a few people that embody them described

[frank crystal]

What’s Razmir?

[clever cobalt]

A wannabe godking

Also a Wizard pretending to be a god

[turbid dagger]

A level 18 wizard who is using his spells to convince a country he is a deity

[clever cobalt]

He rules a nation in the Stolen Lands

[echo briar]

What god would give powers to a cleric of Razmir because it would be very funny

[frank crystal]

Ohhhh

Also does that really imply like, a mythic path?

That description makes me kinda just think he’s a conman and grifter

[warped orbit]

he is

[clever cobalt]

He very much much is

Dunno why he's referenced in the mythic path admittedly

[warped orbit]

he also has "clerics" that are actually just illusionists

[clever cobalt]

Cause his whole character shtick is basically that he's pretending to be a god

[frank crystal]

Then yah like, godling seems more like a genuine attempt at achieving divinity

Not just fooling some shmucks you are

[clever cobalt]

Now TBF, he does genuinely want and seek to become a god

But he isn't very good at it

[frank crystal]

Ohhh

[clever cobalt]

He actually has a profile in LO Legends

[turbid dagger]

That's why I said it's interesting
Because it sort of to me implies that he's genuinely on the path to that goal and not just fumbling around
Which is what all the prior stuff implied

[clever cobalt]

Funny enough he tried to scam a famous Alchemist out of an immortality potion

And failed

[frank crystal]

Is he even that good of a conman?

[clever cobalt]

Yes actually

He managed to convince an entire nation and phony religion at least

[frank crystal]

Yah I guess so

[clever cobalt]

He claims to be ascended from the Starstone

[frank crystal]

I guess it’s just a lot harder to con a singular intelligent person then a lot of people he has a lot of distance on and who don’t really know magic that well

Also yah I assume as a god he’s more like, distant?

Just to reinforce the lie?

[clever cobalt]

He's basically Golarion Trump

[frank crystal]

Oh no

[clever cobalt]

Albeit a little smarter

(Which I know is a below ground bar but still)

[frank crystal]

I mean dude is still a level 17 wizard

[frank crystal]

That’s impressive on its own terms

[clever cobalt]

He also tried to hire a Red Mantis to kill Tar Baphon

[frank crystal]

Who’s that?

[clever cobalt]

And also at the same time sends corposes to Tar Baphon to keep TB from interfering with his nation

[clever cobalt]

Vecna but Pathfinder

[frank crystal]

Ohhhh

Biggest lich around?

[clever cobalt]

Albeit not ascended to a god

Yeah

He is very powerful and very dangerous

Like

"Everyone in the setting is debating teaming up to fight him" dangerous

[frank crystal]

Fair enough tbh

[turbid dagger]

He's essentially the big bad of the setting
Or at least 2e

[frank crystal]

Is he actually active in the whole god war going on rn?

[clever cobalt]

Sorta

[frank crystal]

I feel like a bunch of gods dying would be good for an Unfathomably powerful lich

[clever cobalt]

He actually isn't really mentioned in the book

[frank crystal]

Oh ok

[clever cobalt]

Though I am reminded that he tried to use the Orcs of Belkzen as his army, like he did in the distant last (being a Lich and all)

Except the Orcs told him No, and proceeded to stomp his army into dust

[frank crystal]

Good for them

[clever cobalt]

Regardless

Tar-Baphon is one of the strongest Casters in Golarion's history

[surreal basin]

Man uh

Nimbus surge is kinda terrible on photon huh

In the starfinder playtest

[clever cobalt]

Hes up there with Nex, Geb, Jatambe, and Baba Yaga

Assuming you know who those are at leasy

[frank crystal]

Some of them

[clever cobalt]

Nex and Geb are two extremely powerful wizards who really fucking hate each other (and have nations named after them)

Jatambe basically re-invented Magic after it was lost and founded the best magical school on the planet

Baba Yaga is from Earth and Travelled to Golarion, and conquered a nation literally overnight

[frank crystal]

Oh I was wondering why Geb was both a person and a nation

[clever cobalt]

IIRC Baba Yaga has a higher CR in 1e than Cthulhu

Just for reference

She's also Anastasia Romanov's grandmother

And Rasputin's mother

But that's a whole thing

[frank crystal]

Yah I knew that

[clever cobalt]

Fair

IIRC Baba Yaga also could literally become a god if she wanted, but doesn't because she doesn't wanna be Worshipped

[frank crystal]

I know she wouldn’t because she was directly hurt by it but it’s very funny if a Soviet style revolution happened in Golarion because of hearing about the story before she arrived in Golarion

[frank crystal]

Based off what’s happening that may have been the right choice there

[clever cobalt]

I mean Mortals aren't unaffected either

But yeah

[frank crystal]

I mean yah but she isn’t exactly mortal anymore either

[clever cobalt]

True

[frank crystal]

Or at least not a normal one

[clever cobalt]

She's technically a Mortal but is also an absurdly powerful Caster, as described

So yeah

[frank crystal]

I thought she was a hag

[clever cobalt]

Nah she's human

Again, she's from Earth

[frank crystal]

Oh huh

Oh right

[clever cobalt]

Was a peasant girl taught by Fae in the arts of Magic

[frank crystal]

Yah for some reason I kinda just assumed hags could come from earth

With how many legends of witches there are

[clever cobalt]

She's the inspiration for those legends

[frank crystal]

Ohhh fae can be from earth

[clever cobalt]

It's complicated:tm;

[frank crystal]

Fair

[clever cobalt]

It's implied Earth uses to be more magical

But it died out basically

[frank crystal]

Honestly that kinda feels like a pretty classic trope

Or at least like, magic retreated to the fringes

Or maybe I’m just thinking of Fate

[clever cobalt]

Here's the lore

[frank crystal]

Oh that’s interesting

Also she also is the reason that region is in eternal winter?

[clever cobalt]

Yep

[frank crystal]

Goddamn she’s a dick

[clever cobalt]

She is!

That's why she's great

[frank crystal]

She girlbossed so hard she invoked eternal winter and inadvertently lead to the Soviet Union

[clever cobalt]

Yep

Here's her at a tavern with Old Mage Jatembe, as they do every hundred years

[frank crystal]

Oh Jatemba is also still alive?

[craggy thunder]

I mean iirc he's a god lmao

[frank crystal]

Oh

[clever cobalt]

He isn't

[frank crystal]

I was not aware

Oh

[clever cobalt]

But he is extremely powerful still

[echo briar]

Yes. He’s in at least 2 APs

[clever cobalt]

He's basically the only person Yaga views as a peer

[frank crystal]

Also he founded the school that one AP is based in right?

[craggy thunder]

aye

[clever cobalt]

It's actually art for a short story

Lemme link

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6shai?Be-Kind-to-Strangers#discuss

[frank crystal]

I assume the other extremely powerful casters you mentioned before are seen very poorly by her?

[clever cobalt]

But tl;dr yes, they are acquaintances and meet each other in the same Tavern in Taldor every 100 years

[clever cobalt]

Yep

[frank crystal]

Gotta be the most stressful day for whoever owns that tavern that year

[echo briar]

SoT spoilers ||if Jatembe has been imprisoned for 266 years, has baba yaga wondering why he missed at least 2 meetings?||

[clever cobalt]

||That or he snuck out time to time||

[echo briar]

||or does the king of biting ants let he out for that day, and Jatembe is just so polite he turned himself back in||

[trail nova]

Yes, but uhh. Arazni rising to one of the core 20 is bad for him. Since uh. "One more major god with a massive fucking grudge against you personally" is not where you want to be.

[echo briar]

Also the cleric got a huge upgrade. They added basic shaman spellcasting to it. Thats 2 basic casting feats on one architype

or it's a typo, but this reality is funnier

[frank crystal]

Oh true yah

[trail nova]

(Also, the "Everyone teams up to try and kill Tar Baphon" is giving me good fodder for my Eutropia/Kelish Princess political marriage fic idea.)

[clever cobalt]

So Re: Razmiran

Guess who just learned their Mythic Campaign is gonna be set there?

[eager mountain]

big lich that was created when he was killed by Aroden , THEN later fought Aroden .... possibly wounded him. ruled in a dark age over what is now the zone of terror or wahtever and broke out pretty recently with whats bascially a magical nuke

that I think he lost , becuased of players ?

and there a bunmch of people coming together to fight him

[frank crystal]

Oh was he the BBEG of an AP?

[eager mountain]

one of the big name ones

Razmir is an asshole

there MIGHT be an adventure bout the team up in the future, who knows

but theres the Commander class coming out and the devs described it as " theres gonna be need for those who can lead "

[frank crystal]

Honestly with Golarion that can refer to so many things

There’s an apocalypse every 2 days there

[eager mountain]

also damn, the dragon eagle died

[frank crystal]

Who?

[eager mountain]

trying to remember what it was, it was one of the god caller beasts

uhhh IRC , it was mentioned that a piece of gorum's chunks fell into the world wound, and the dragon eagle swooped in and grabbed it

...before flying into the sky and exploding

[frank crystal]

Oh

Fuck

[eager mountain]

see dragon eagle

[silver geyser]

A bit late, but it's because Gods have more rules.

[eager mountain]

oh wait my bad

I shouldnt be posting screen shots this early probably

[wooden orbit]

Geb became a powerful ghost necromancer, and Nex uhh....||Nex is still kinda missing right?||

[surreal basin]

Man

I like starfinder as a whole

But I feel like some of the playtest classes are kinda anemic

[surreal basin]

Also finding prey for death characters is so hard

[clever cobalt]

Hmm, what's a good FA Archetype for Exemplar?

[rustic cape]

Probably depends on what you're doing with exemplar

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, it's kind of like fighter
You can do a lot with different ikon choices
For one I'm making, champ or bastion would be amazing

[rustic cape]

Mighty Bulwark my love

[wary yoke]

I mean I'm not aiming for pure synergy by going Medic for mine

It's kinda anti-synergy with a two-hander actually, but it fits the character and makes sure we have healing totally covered

(also because I ported and modified Godless Healing and Mortal Healing for our campaign setting and I can use those)

[rustic cape]

FWIW Godless Healing has mostly been replaced by Robust Health

Technically it's still in the game and you can use both but

[wary yoke]

Our version, Xenon Training, makes it so the benefit is applied to others, not just yourself

So it actually makes sense to be a Medicine skill feat

But like I said, the funny thing is that Mortal Healing is a nonbo with the Exemplar's healing, lol

[rustic cape]

Also battle medicine requires a free hand >_>

[frank crystal]

Does swash have any support feats for dual weapons?

[warped orbit]

it has Dual Finisher

and I think that's kinda it?

[wary yoke]

Hence why I was expressing my frustration with the action economy and how two-handed is annoying

[frank crystal]

Huh, that’s a niche I can expand upon then

Y’all think a feat that lets you use the parry tag on a weapon as a free action after a finisher would be busted?

[turbid dagger]

Nah
Swash gets dueling dance after a point

[frank crystal]

Oh shit dueling dance is just permanent raise shield

Ok yah this is fine

[wary yoke]

True, that might be a good idea for a general feat

[frank crystal]

Oh yah especially since there’s a grand total of a single one handed parry weapon that goes above a d4

And that weapon doesn’t even have agile

Huh, would tacking on just like, an extra d4 of damage to your finisher via a quick stab or slash from your offhand weapon be fine probably?

[wary yoke]

I realize we are talking about two different things

Okay, otherwise, does anyone think that a general feat that gives you the ability to switch handedness as a reaction would work?

[frank crystal]

What were you talking about?

[wary yoke]

So it's not just "switching hands is now a free action"

Two-handed weapons not working with things that require an empty hand

Like Battlefield Medicine

[frank crystal]

Ohhhh

[wary yoke]

And the possibility of homebrewing a general feat to address that

Since I imagine there are other scenarios/characters where it may be beneficial

[echo briar]

wow, geb has an anti plague

it infects the dead and brings them back to life

What happens if Geb himself becomes unundead?

[limber comet]

My woi physical copy arrived!!

[light gyro]

lmao crit

least complicated pathfinder combat state

[wooden orbit]

Source? o.o

[limber comet]

Also I got a "Paizo 2024 catalog" and it shows off some art from upcoming books

NPC core is gonna have troops

[wary yoke]

That's going to be interesting, makes sense with how PF2E is doing monsters

[surreal basin]

Troops are great

[limber comet]

I love troops yeah

It's a good way to give a bunch of enemies to fight without tracking 50 separate initiatives

[wary yoke]

And 50 separate creatures, I just hope it's implemented well

[limber comet]

I really hope we get lizardfolk, gnoll, and tengu npcs

Err, kholo*

My apologies

[silver geyser]

Troops troops troops troops!

[novel merlin]

Troops are already in pre-remaster 2e

[wary yoke]

I'll have to see how they work in 2E then

[surreal basin]

They’re pretty good

I don’t really fuck with the part where they kinda move around like individual tokens cause that’s not really possible in foundry without severe fuckery

[frozen hatch]

What's your top 3 adventure paths for 1e?

[silver geyser]

Curse of the Crimson Throne
Kingmaker
Carrion Crown