Pathfinder

[fast hill]

ooo that's a cool idea

it's pure calories

start taking debuffs if you eat too much of it

[limber comet]

The watee thing is a bit tougher

Maybe it keeps you from dehydration but you're still actually thirsty?

[fast hill]

create water only makes like a gallon of water

2 gallons

which is barely enough for a person

oh no

half a gallon of water per day

damn I thought gallons were way less

[limber comet]

A gallon is a lot lol

[fast hill]

yea I only think of liquids in terms of litres

hmmmm

[limber comet]

You'd probably be better of doing another system if you want to focus on pc survival exclusively

[fast hill]

honestly it might not be a huge problem later but if they want to use a spell slot on create water that's up to them

oh it's not going to be exclusively but having it be an undertone is fun

[limber comet]

You could also complicate things by having npcs the pcs have to care for

[fast hill]

like, it's a thing they are actively doing but it isn't the primary issue

[fast hill]

that is also a plan yeah

[warped orbit]

a gallon is like nearly four liters

[solar storm]

I will note that create water only makes enough water for 2 medium creatures and doesn’t heighten

So it’s not a full solution to finding water

At least until fairly high level where your 1st level slots aren’t important

[solar tendon]

waters generally a lot cheaper than spell slots

[fast hill]

Yeah

[fast hill]

Just gotta think of a good place to set it

Actual setting doesn't matter too much I guess, just somewhere in golarion

Time to find somewhere cool

[limber comet]

What's the "apocalypse"

Is it localized? Worldwide?

[fast hill]

Localized I'm thinking

[limber comet]

Hmmm

[fast hill]

I'm thinking as well of something that keeps people from just going back up to the surface, perhaps the land is horribly tainted by void energy or something

Some dwarf fortress evil embark shenanigans

[limber comet]

Numeria but you have to go underground bc of radiation

[fast hill]

Ooo

Time to read up on my numeria lore

Numeria is very cool

Could even set it in parts of the Divinity, but that might not be the vibe I'm going for

[clever cobalt]

Some people are getting the book

[fast hill]

The book?

[clever cobalt]

War of Immortals

Shipping for subscribers started today

[fast hill]

Oh shit

Fuck yeah

[rustic cape]

Are catfolk lactose intolerant

[silver geyser]

I am here to roll in with the "Depends on the region of Golarion"

[clever cobalt]

Someone's answering questions in another server

anyone have any?

[echo briar]

How is the exemplars armor situation? Medium? Unarmed support?

[clever cobalt]

Also, the MYthic Destinies (Apocalypse Rider is also there, but cut off)

[clever cobalt]

Oh, I asked that already. They look good but they nerfed some ofthe Ephitats

[echo briar]

So, medium, unarmed support?

[clever cobalt]

I mean taht was confirmed before

but I can ask

[echo briar]

Something to help str characters was confirmed, but the exact implementation was not

[clever cobalt]

Asked

And they have medium armor

[echo briar]

Also, how does the unarmed weapon ikon work? (I assume it’s a weapon ikon, but maybe it’s body)

[clever cobalt]

asked as well

[echo briar]

Thank you

[clever cobalt]

np

[echo briar]

Asking for someone in my group, what is broken chain?

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-it-yes-thats-it-that-right-there-omg-that-thats-what-i-mean-gif-17579879

hey das my friend Autumn, we play together

[clever cobalt]

"Fighting Tyrants and toppling evil empires" etc

Also theres a throwing weapon Ikon

[warped orbit]

oh nice

wonder if that still works with the dual wielding/throwing stuff

[echo briar]

Any fundamental changes to how any of the classes work?

[rustic cape]

What's new with animist?

[steel blade]

im curious about the new epithets, since they implied they'll be a larger part of the class

[clever cobalt]

Supposedly they're more general support now, as opposed to just combat

Which is probably for the best

[rustic cape]

For animist, or epithets?

[clever cobalt]

Epithets

[rustic cape]

Gotcha

[clever cobalt]

@rustic cape

[rustic cape]

They mention anything beyond that? New spirits? Changes to the baseline?

[clever cobalt]

Due to spoiler rules on the server they literally cannot type more than 2 sentences

So it's hard to say

They did say this though regarding it

[surreal basin]

lol what? The server spoiler rule is “only two sentences”?
That’s
Really funny

[clever cobalt]

Though it may also be because they're getting swarmed with questions and don't wanna spend too long on each one

[surreal basin]

Oh lol fair enough

[sinful gyro]

They also don't like you posting art from paizo

Which I find kinda wild

[surreal basin]

Like under any circumstances?

[sinful gyro]

Like I get that they don't want to host the pdfs so folks can pirate them or whatever

But its literally all on aon as well so...

[clever cobalt]

They did confirm the book has cool art though

[surreal basin]

Well I’m sure lol

[sinful gyro]

Pretty much?

[surreal basin]

I’d be surprised to hear “yeah the art is bad”

[rustic cape]

Hypothetically >_>

[sinful gyro]

Well it's all on aon eventually

[surreal basin]

grumble grumble

[clever cobalt]

Figured some people would be interested in this at least

greatword avengers time

[rustic cape]

Good

Greatsword avenger was an old standby in 4e

Good to see it return

[warped orbit]

so does having Hunt Prey mean you just get Sneak Attack against your Prey?

[clever cobalt]

Funnily enough, only one god has Greatsword as a divine weapon

And it's Gorum

[frank crystal]

Who?

Oh

Oh no

[surreal basin]

I feel like uhhh

Surprise attack is pretty mediocre as features go

[steel blade]

there might be more added

[surreal basin]

So honestly feels like a good trade

[steel blade]

in either WoI or DM

[warped orbit]

Ragathiel has Bastard Sword

[surreal basin]

GAAAAAH I needs

[warped orbit]

is very thematic for Avenger too

[clever cobalt]

Technically szerial or however you spell it also has a Graatsword

But she's on the cover so

I presume she's mentioned in the book somehow

[surreal basin]

I need this book NOW

My normal methods for getting books early hasn’t worked :/

[echo briar]

Do any non god immortals die, like baba yaga

[frank crystal]

I think only Gorum has died so far

[surreal basin]

I doubt it since they’re p rare and usually favorites of fans and devs

[clever cobalt]

Baba Yaga is cool

Also she hasn't done anything in 2e yet so killing her would be weird

Especially since she has an entry in the Legends LO

[steel blade]

it's not called 'war of immortals' because only 1 of them is dying they've made it clear they're using this event to clean up the pantheon a bit

[echo briar]

I used her and an example

[clever cobalt]

Fair

[frank crystal]

Guess so yah

[clever cobalt]

I asked, let's see if they see it

Because I too am curious who died (aside from Gorum)

[rustic cape]

It's pretty shitty, especially since bosses tend to have ultra-high initiative

And also as a rogue you have a ton of ways to get off guard

[surreal basin]

[warped orbit]

Surprise Attack is fine IMO, but not super critical yeah

[rustic cape]

It might save you some action economy on one turn

But I find it just doesn't do much

Even considering my GM lets me use stealth for Initiative on most fights, just as an assumption

[warped orbit]

you can basically always just Avoid Notice, so that's pretty normal

[rustic cape]

Yeah, but even so a lot of the time it just doesn't do anything

[surreal basin]

Even if hunt prey doesn’t do much (and I’ve gotta assume it works into how the archetype works) I’d prefer it

[rustic cape]

Of course to get hunt prey I'd have to play a racket that isn't thief

Love thief

Thief is life

[surreal basin]

Honestly I can do without strength to damage
Sneak attack makes up for it handily

[tough perch]

i wanna see a non-thief rogue in action

every time i've played the player who goes for rogue look at the rackets and almost instantly pick thief

If i ever play a martial, rogue is up there with thaum and fighter as my first options

but not thief

[rustic cape]

Being SAD is great, and if you get to higher levels precise debilitations is so cool

[frank crystal]

I wanna play a str rogue

I don’t remember the name of the racket though

[rustic cape]

Ruffian really needs to be able to use more stuff

[frank crystal]

Ruffian that

[echo briar]

they should make a con rouge

[rustic cape]

Including unarmed stuff

[frank crystal]

Please god give Ruffian martial d8 weapons

Please fuck I’m begging paizo

I will kill for it

[rustic cape]

Honestly I don't think it's terribly problematic to just let them use whatever

[frank crystal]

Give me maul ruffian

I wanna use a sledgehammer

[echo briar]

any non class architypes in WotI?

[surreal basin]

Yeah let ruffian do stuff

Mastermind and Scoundrel are still definitely not bad though

You’re not giving up that much damage by leaving strength low tbh

[tough perch]

it's a big difference early levels but very little later on when you're throwing a handful of dice

that said it's fine early levels too

[surreal basin]

Yeah true enough

It’s a bigger deal early on

[rustic cape]

I dunno, rolling a single d8 for damage with no modifier is not the best feeling

Thief effectively doubles its damage early on over Mastermind or Scoundrel w/o Strength

[turbid dagger]

Surprise attack is pretty much JUST for 'oh I went first in init but thats bad for rogues since no one is in flanking positions yet'

(Yes I have a halloween icon now)

[frank crystal]

Frankenstein’s mech

[rustic cape]

True

[clever cobalt]

Feel this may be relevant

[frank crystal]

That’s insane

[clever cobalt]

Seems like they're Hero Points+ basically

[turbid dagger]

Well, I guess when Mythic Stuff pops up it ought be impactful
TBH I've been in a few games where you can just upgrade your roll one tier (fail-success, success-crit) with a hero point so

[rustic cape]

Huh, I thought they said it was just for skills and saves

[clever cobalt]

Which is... fine wjth me honestly

[solar tendon]

I guess I kinda get the idea of not making people juggle two currencies

although like

[rustic cape]

I hope they give more of a structure to distributing the mythic points

It's very ad-hoc as is

[sinful gyro]

I'd like to see what it says in the book tbh

[solar tendon]

can mythic points do anything after you've rolled

[clever cobalt]

Sorta? From the conversation going on over there it basically boils down to "act mythic and follow your path/calling"

And you'll be rewarded

[solar tendon]

cause if not you're gonna need like, more of them. to replace hero points

[clever cobalt]

(insert Ru's rant about RP Rewards)

[sinful gyro]

Is ru not a fan?

[solar tendon]

that's kinda worse than hero points even

in that respect

[clever cobalt]

Honestly i wouldn't be surprised if there's a popular houserule ala the while "a hero point an hour" thing

[solar tendon]

isn't hero point an hour The Rule

[clever cobalt]

It's a house rule, albeit a popular one

Like Free Archetype

[solar tendon]

I don't think that's true

[clever cobalt]

(Well the latter is a variant but w/e)

[rustic cape]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2333&Redirected=1

[solar tendon]

I guess I read this as more of a rule

than others might

[clever cobalt]

Regardless yeah, I foresee people treating them like Hero Points in terms of meta currency

[limber comet]

gms should be generous with hero points but not too much

[sinful gyro]

I do 1 free at the start, and another one half way through the session

[solar tendon]

we've always played it exactly this way

hero points kinda just feel meh to me though tbh

[limber comet]

I liked the system we did in the first session where we got a hero point after each combat

I felt more incentivized to spend them more frequently

[sinful gyro]

After each combat weights things oddly

imo

Some sessions, you do no combat

[limber comet]

Hmm yeah

I dunno

I think it really depends on your party and the needs of your group

[rustic cape]

My GM rarely gives extra hero points but house rules them to be significantly better

They get the 11-20 range and the "keep it if you fail"

[surreal basin]

I mean, bare minimum d8+d6 :p

[rustic cape]

Sure, but statistically the thief is still throwing around just shy of 2d8+1d6

[solar tendon]

and if the enemies have any resistance it's pain

[surreal basin]

I give out hero points very frequently

[warped orbit]

oh if it does actually fully replace Hero Points, I don't really like that

[surreal basin]

Yeah I’m not a huge fan

The mythic abilities are gonna need to be like

Totally fucking insane

[warped orbit]

notably AIUI, that +10 is your prof bonus for the roll
instead of whatever you would have normally
so it's basically just a fifth step of proficiency you can only sometimes access

[frank crystal]

Wait are mythic abilities tied to mythic point?

[surreal basin]

Yes

[frank crystal]

That kinda sucks

[surreal basin]

At least they implied some of them would be

Mythic spells definitely require a mythic point

I’m waiting to see what the book says directly because I’ve heard very conflicting info

[limber comet]

At least you can probably homebrew it to be separate

Hero points and mythic points separately

[limber comet]

I am curious about mythic monsters though

I wonder if it'll be possible for them to be used in a non mythic campaign as boss monsters

[echo briar]

Is there any advice on how to handle gorum clerics and champions?

[frank crystal]

are there rules for dealing damage via colliding with walls?

[turbid dagger]

Some specific feats have it but its not the default

[frank crystal]

ah ok

[limber comet]

It is a little weird that the Battle Harbinger class archetype isn't in WoI, but a lost omens book instead

...a really big lost omens book, but still

[surreal basin]

I mean

The implication they’ve give is just that they couldn’t fit it all into WOI reasonably

[limber comet]

That's fair

I mean 2 classes, 5 class archetypes, a metric ton of mythic rules, mythic monster templates, example mythic monsters, and lore

That's a lot

I do hope that Battlecry also has more class archetypes

I need brawler back

[turbid dagger]

Brawler ❤️
Alas I feel Martial Artist is supposed to serve that purpose
(Ignore that the martial artist stances still require unarmored so realistically everyone is pretending to be either a gorilla or intoxicated)

[limber comet]

I mean, I can see Skald and Brawler coming back as class archetypes for the "mortal war" book

It thematically makes sense

Hunter is kinda useless because of how Ranger just is now

I can't really see Mesmerist coming back in Battlecry, honestly

[rapid wagon]

Can't you kinda do the brawler thing already with fighter or monk?

Since monk is a lot less Ki and stunning strike focused

[echo briar]

I’m honestly surprised BotD didn’t bring back the vampire hunter.

That class was made to be an archetype

[limber comet]

You can kinda but a full class archetype for fighter would be nice

[limber comet]

Honestly? I think I'd prefer a general monster hunter, a mix of a thaum and ranger

[rustic cape]

I dunno, what would it add that’s not already in Martial Artist or Wrestler?

[turbid dagger]

Yeah that's my thing
There are already avenues for it in the system so I can't see them doing another
As much as I want them too, as martial artist fighter largely doesn't actually work

[frank crystal]

Wait what’s wrong with martial artist fighter?

fighters got plenty of unarmed focus feats

[turbid dagger]

Every stance but gorilla and stumbling still needs you to be unarmored

And of those two, stumblings upgrade feat relies on an ability you can't get off martial artist

Which is not a deal breaker but IS mad lame

[frank crystal]

Oh I mean yah but it’s like unarmed is unworkable

You still progress in unarmored and if you’re going for one of the dex stances you wanna switch to unarmed eventually anyway

[turbid dagger]

Not particularly
It's not like finesse means you can ONLY use dex
Str is more damage

As it stands if you want to play wolf stance fighter your going to have 2 less AC than a fighter ought too until level 10, upon which point you'll have only 1 less

And will also have to do dex kas

[surreal basin]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Dipping into both strength and dex isn’t a huge deal

Dex KAS with a little strength on the side

It’s not optimal but it’s far from unuseable

[silver geyser]

Flat damage is not as important now

[surreal basin]

Yeah it’s v nice but not a dealbreaker to not have strength to damage

Also tbh I kinda hate using str with finesse weapons

Feels wrong lol

[rustic cape]

Realistically just taking gorilla or stumbling-and-nothing-else is perfectly fine

Stumbling doesn't actually need an upgrade

And there's plenty of other stuff to spend your feat on

So I feel like saying it "doesn't work" is pretty off-base

[surreal basin]

Or just take a different stance and go dex-unarmored, doing so isn’t really devastating

Like tiger or wolf

[rustic cape]

Yeah you might be a small amount less potent but

You'll be fine

You're still a fighter

I'd say fighter with martial artist and wrestler is actually pretty crazy

[frank crystal]

Also I do feel like dex melee characters that aren’t swash, rogue or investigator are still like, fine

[surreal basin]

Gotta make my flurry ranger clawdancer……

[rustic cape]

Hell, like

[frank crystal]

Yah you do less damage then your strength counterparts but acrobatics has some sauce to it and stuff like wolf, tiger and crane have benefits for that kinda playstyle while not sacrificing your AC

Hell a crane Dex build has better AC then a normal fighter

[rustic cape]

Okay, by 10th Stumbling Stance fighter is hanging around with legendary attack proficiency, -3 MAP, heavy armor, oh and if you hit it you're off-guard against its first attack the next round

[surreal basin]

Tbh I think people put way too much emphasis on armor maxing

[frank crystal]

Honestly I’m generally more inclined for medium armor then heavy in this game

I don’t like being slower

[surreal basin]

Like having a high AC is really good but realistically having a middling AC isn’t the end of the world

[frank crystal]

And 2 dex isn’t hard to get

[solar tendon]

if barb managed to be one of the best classes even before -1 ac went away then you're probably gonna be okayish

[frank crystal]

which imo should have stayed

[solar tendon]

yeah it's weird??

[frank crystal]

It was like

Barbs gimmick

You get hit and crit more often, and in return your damage is crazy

Now your damage is just crazy

[surreal basin]

No they needed a buff

They weren’t good enough

:3

Giant barb was underpowered

[frank crystal]

See giant is the best barb because they retain the gimmick still

[surreal basin]

Oh actually having fury barb not take the ac penalty might’ve been something……

[frank crystal]

It would have given them at least some kinda gimmick

[surreal basin]

Oh fury barb

[frank crystal]

God I wish it was like

Anything

And not just a second level 1 feat on a class with a single good level 1 feat

[turbid dagger]

I think for me, this winds up in the same territory that comes up a lot in PF2e where like
Martial Artist Fighter with one of the unarmored stances isn't bad
But I do feel it is strictly, subtly worse than other fighter builds you could have made
Which feels bad
Like yes it Works
But you do have lower AC and less damage for not as much tangible benefit as that deserves

[surreal basin]

Right but that’s fine

Maybe that would be the place of a brawler archetype then :p

(I assume a fighter archetype would mostly replace like…. Martial flexibility? And lock in your weapon choice for some extra benefit)

[steel blade]

one could always just take an ancestry feat like Bestial Manifestation to get an unarmed attack other than Fist, and then simply use the existing fighter feats your damage dice might not be as big but you get to wear heavy armor if you want

also, Wrestler exists

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, that meanwhile I think is quite good
Like a Lizardfolk Wrestler Fighter with Razor Claws is going to open someone up like a tin can without sacrificing their stats or AC

But obv thats a bit of a different Class Fantasy

Honestly for peak 'I'm just a dude who punches you in the face and suplexes you until you die' vibes I'd go..... Ape Animal Barbarian
And refluff the transformation angle out

D10 fist attack and All Of Barbs Grappling Stuff

[frank crystal]

I mean I do think it’s probably for the best a barb subclass is better at unarmed then a generic archetype anyone can take

[silver geyser]

I don't know what to do with Brawler with PF2e that martial artist doesn't already satisfy

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, thats the main sticking point for me
Martial Artist already feels like the systems attempt to go 'hey heres how you can do a brawler'
Much like Flexible Prep on a Wizard is explicitly 'hey heres arcanist'

[frank crystal]

What was arcanist again?

[turbid dagger]

Sorceror/Wizard hybrid class
You had a weird prep/spont hybrid casting system where you had like 3 spell slots for each level you could prepare spells into, but then cast those 3 spells spontaneously

[frank crystal]

Huh

[surreal basin]

I mean like I said, I think it’d just be focusing on non-stance based unarmed

As an archetype

[turbid dagger]

That would be cool!

[silver geyser]

They had DnD 5e spell prep, and could exploit magical laws.

[surreal basin]

Which isn’t really a thing per say in 2e rn, at least not regularly

[frank crystal]

Honestly yah some way to make powerful fist like, useful, would be neat

[frank crystal]

The closest you get is ancestry unarmed attacks that have useful trait like Kholo

[turbid dagger]

Man if wrestler gave you full Powerful Fist instead of just removing the nonlethal tag.............................................................................

[frank crystal]

As we all know wrestlers exclusively kill their opponents

No wrestling match has ever ended with a knockout

And not cold blooded murder

[turbid dagger]

Just look at Hell In A Cell
Lethal damage was being dealt there, that MF just made his recovery saves

[frank crystal]

Dude had diehard

[surreal basin]

Welcome to my new feat, your fists are still a d4 but they have fatal d12 now

[frank crystal]

Based

[rapid wagon]

can a fighter gun unarmored mastery/expertise?

[warped orbit]

their unarmored goes up with their armor prof

[rapid wagon]

oh yeah so you could totally play a more rough and tumble brawlery type

is there any sort of spiked knuckle duster or something to go with it?

[steel blade]

spiked gauntlets exist yeah

1d4 p, agile, free-hand

[surreal basin]

Also just the knuckle duster
Wow brawling weapons are not good

What is even the point of using one over a fist

[warped orbit]

you can use weapon based stuff I guess

but yeah there's not much point

[steel blade]

getting rid of non-lethal, using stuff that specifies 'weapon'(fists/unarmed dont count as weapons technically)

[warped orbit]

gauntlet has some niche as a freehand weapon

[rapid wagon]

just like the idea of a sort of hard boiled knuckle duster using fist fighter over the more refined martial artist vibe; figured fighter with martial artist hits that a bit better than monk

[frank crystal]

I like the tekko-kaggi specifically

Because it’s basically a buckler you can disarm with

And is a free hand weapon so you can still do free hand stuff

[rustic cape]

That’s the big thing, if you’re a flurry ranger or something else tied to weapons you use them

[frank crystal]

That’s actually very funny the best class for knuckle dusters is ranger

Imagine you’re a poacher and you’re approached by this guardian of nature

And instead of a bow or a sword he pulls out two brass knuckles and starts beating your ass

[steel blade]

ranger with bladed gauntlets, cosplaying as wolverine

[rustic cape]

But like for real if you do Ranger + Wrestler in particular that’s probably the play

Free hand economy is strong

Pick up medic just because you can

[surreal basin]

Oh starfinder playtest eratta dropped

Some decently sized changes

[warped orbit]

oh another one?

[rustic cape]

Anything in particular?

[surreal basin]

Primary Fire now comes before Area Fire for soldier

And if you hit it they go down a degree of success on their save

[frank crystal]

Oh cool

[surreal basin]

And Solarion can make their weapon two hand d10

Am I crazy or does solarion feel kinda undertuned

At least photon

[warped orbit]

oh that's pretty cool

[rustic cape]

Oh that’s really cool

Love that

Action hero soldier stays winning

[surreal basin]

Also wow I took shattering impact on my solarion cause I thought it was power attack

No holy shit that’s an AWFUL ability

Effectively 3 entire actions

To make your weapon go up to a d10 for a single strike

Like Jesus that’s….. unbelievably, laughably bad

[rustic cape]

Yeah uh

That’s garbage

[surreal basin]

Like

[solar storm]

That seems like it has a rider missing or something

[surreal basin]

Well they haven’t changed it in 3 errata’s!

The rider would have to be pretty nuts to make it ever worth using

Solarion is uh

I’ve not been enjoying it mechanically

As expected the flavor is nuts, the actual effectiveness is…. Insanely limited

[rustic cape]

Maybe they’re overvaluing the orientation towards melee?

[surreal basin]

I kinda don’t know what they’re supposed to be doing in combat because they’re the melee guy but don’t really get anything to make them worth doing over an operative
Other than blasting AOEs everywhere

Which

Uh

I don’t think was the intent lmao

[frank crystal]

What is the feat you’re talking about?

[surreal basin]

Shattering Impact

Is the specific one I mentioned

But not being sure what you’re supposed to do in combat is my overview of the whole class

[frank crystal]

Can you post it? I can’t find it online

[silver geyser]

Let's gooooooo

[frank crystal]

Oh wow yah that’s

[surreal basin]

oh it does have an attunement based rider but theye both med

[frank crystal]

Awful

Holy fuck

[surreal basin]

meh

[frank crystal]

It’s not even an additional die?

Just an increased damage step?

[surreal basin]

yeah

[frank crystal]

That should be like

An extra 2d8 damage

Minimum

[surreal basin]

no i agree it should be power attack lol

[frank crystal]

Better power attack imo

[surreal basin]

power attack + the rider and damage die increase
because its - disharmony, breaks your weapon EVEN ON A MISS

[frank crystal]

IT BREAKS ON A MISS?

WHY?

[surreal basin]

:3

it doesn't say on a hit or anything

its vague but

[clever cobalt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JdyFyMCDnU

[echo briar]

do you think they'll ever do bigger SF2 playtest errata? Like buffing every gun or something more broad

[frank crystal]

Actually I wanna ask, is the dual air pistol build still seems to be viable?

Because god that build was neat

Primarily asking for the feat that makes any weapon twin weapons

[rustic cape]

Next step up from fighter is a bold claim

[frank crystal]

Eh I just assume that’s some clickbait

Exemplar isn’t even really trying to be

It’s just another martial

Albeit one with a lot of flat damage

Really if anything it’s main competition is barb

[echo briar]

I would actually say its main comparison is magus

[surreal basin]

Probably not

[echo briar]

big flashy thing that you can do at will, but needs to be recharged, leading to spikey gameplay

[surreal basin]

I think that’s the realm of full release

[echo briar]

the biggest difference being that for an exemplar to recharge, they need to do a different flashy thing, but it's not quite as flashy

[rustic cape]

So magus but more consistent due to flat damage instead of rolls?

[frank crystal]

Unfortunately I don’t think it plays super similarly to magus because it lacks the key feeling of magus of LETS GO CRIT FISHING

[echo briar]

titan breaker says hi

[rapid wagon]

anoyne willing ot drop playtest errata link?

[worthy stump]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6xq1l?Starfinder-Playtest-Errata-Wave-3

Should be a link in there to the FAQ page with all the 3 errata waves

[clever cobalt]

This looks good

Also theres some lore in the War of Immortals that connects to Starfinder supposedly

[worthy stump]

Ooh

Spicy

[clever cobalt]

||The smoke that comes out of Gorum's armor as he dies is known as the Devourer, and is a fragment of Rovugug trapped in Gorum's armor/body||

Also the Dead Gods (aside from Gorum) are: ||Cermunnos, Grundinnar, Smiad, Sturovenen, Otolmens, and the entire Osirion and Hag pantheons||

I know someone asked about this yesterday

[echo briar]

||wait, they actually killed all of the osirion pantheon? I've said that as a joke so many times, but it actually happening makes me so happy||

[clever cobalt]

||Yeah they got a mutual kill with the Hag Pantheon from what I'm seeing||

||After the Hag Pantheon was trying something in Osirion||

||After Nethys killed Thoth, I should add||

[echo briar]

||good. He deserved it||

although the fact that most of the other gods are so minor they don't have descriptions in 2e is kind of a let down

[clever cobalt]

It's possible there's more, I'm just relaying what I'm hearing

But yeah fair

[echo briar]

one doesn't even have a stat block

[clever cobalt]

||Though maybe you can make a Devourer cleric in PF2e now||

Also apperantly we get some Casmaron lore

[trail nova]

Woo, finally!

[clever cobalt]

Or at least, a new god from there

||Bride of Ydersius||

[echo briar]

also ||the peace keeper of the dwarves is one of the few really interesting deaths mentioned. that feels very relevant for triumph of the tusk||

[clever cobalt]

Yep

[echo briar]

||alternatively, the god of peace dying causes peace to get out of control. Dwarves become way to pacifistic to deal with legitimist threats||

[echo briar]

||all weapon ikons can be used with unarmed attacks that meet the requierments. For example, if an Ikon requires a slashing weapon, it also works with slashing unarmed attacks||

[warped orbit]

interesting

[light gyro]

hm

[clever cobalt]

Oof

[limber comet]

Exemplar is so fucking peak

My main complaint is that ||Hands of the Wildling doesn't boost the damage dice of fists/gauntlets. I'd personally make it so it increases d4 unarmed attacks to d6 or even d8 to reflect how SWOLE you are||

I don't like the idea of having to take an archetype to use a feature that is baked in

[frank crystal]

What’s Hands of the Wildling?

[clever cobalt]

Unarmed Ikon

[clever cobalt]

did you get th4e book? 👀

[frank crystal]

Ahhh

[light gyro]

party fighting 3 maruts. one guy has crit-succeeded like three aoe spells in a row. this isn't an 'uh oh' moment, just a weird fluke of statistics

[limber comet]

I have it yeah

I'm reading thru it rn

[clever cobalt]

Damn lucky

Wish I had it

I would ask if you could share it while I'm waiting for mine but no rush

[limber comet]

It's technically not my copy affhsgsgs

I got it from a friend

[clever cobalt]

Fair, no rush

Just figured I'd ask cause I really wanna see it

[frank crystal]

Same tbh

[turbid dagger]

||Note that Humble Strikes makes Gauntlets d6 for Exemplars anyhow||

ALSOOOOO

||I AM VINDICATED, DOUBLE WEAPONS ARE IN THE GAME EIBM4WIMB3PIMPBIBE||

[frank crystal]

Welcome back polearm master!

[turbid dagger]

||double slicing with a maul....||

[clever cobalt]

||Also a lot of the Ikons work with unarmed already||

[limber comet]

My brain is reeling from all the information

[turbid dagger]

I'm obssessed with the idea of Precision Ranger with the above feat and a maul
Double Slicing the heck out of people
(No not flurry, my thought is its more chances to apply the d8 precision proc, and flurry would be spamming the whimpy d4 end)

[clever cobalt]

Let's not forget an important lore thing

||the Devourer from Starfinder is Rovugug's and Gorum's child||

[turbid dagger]

Whuh??????
Elaborate on that
I have some starfinder folks on another server and I'm curious to know if thats a shitpost

[wooden orbit]

https://youtu.be/2HDqztHu_1E?si=jTieKbvFLoVsuAPh

[clever cobalt]

||Gorum had a fragment of Rovugug in him, and when he died it became free. It was initially an aspect of Rovugug, but grew into it's own thing||

[sinful gyro]

Cool

[turbid dagger]

Did you hear this from someone, do you have eyes on the book? That's wild

[clever cobalt]

It was brought up a few times on the PF2e discord

It was explained a bit more in detail as well but it was a few hours ago

[steel blade]

having skimmed the book, can confirm

[clever cobalt]

God I really want the book

[clever cobalt]

how's it look?

[steel blade]

good, the mythic rules are cool

[clever cobalt]

Nice

I'm eagerly awaiting mine to ship and I can't wait to get it

[steel blade]

exemplar got some nice buffs, including shield block for free at level 1

[clever cobalt]

ye I saw that

[steel blade]

(which, having a shield-using exemplar, i'm stoked for tbh)

also their domain stuff from the playtest seems to be moved to one of the mythic destinies(Godling), or at least, there is no other way i see in the book for an exemplar to get domain spells

[clever cobalt]

fair enoough

[wooden orbit]

Cosmic Birthday?

[clever cobalt]

War of Immortals

[wooden orbit]

Oh, I for some reason thought you were talking Starfinder 2E x-x

[clever cobalt]

||I sorta am, but the origin of the Devouruer (the Starfinder god) is in War of Immortals||

[wooden orbit]

Can’t wait to play a Bloodrager, or Exemplar in the orc AP

[wooden orbit]

I take it the new deity would be considered ||chaotic evil, if we were still using alignments?||

[clever cobalt]

wouldn't srurpsie me

[turbid dagger]

Bastionxemplar..........

[surreal basin]

Oh! Can someone go check about how mythic points work

[steel blade]

they replace hero points, are regained/spent based on your mythic calling, and some of the feats give you extra ways to spend them

[surreal basin]

Are they still limited to 3

[steel blade]

ye

[surreal basin]

And does every mythic ability require them to be used

[steel blade]

mythic characters dont die on hitting dying 4; they gain 1 point of doomed and get back up at 1hp, and the book reasons that hero points are mostly intended to keep you from dying so you don't need them as much if you're mythic

there's also other ways to regain mythic points, from killing mythic enemies to 'mythic accomplishments' aka 'gm fiat'

and yeah it looks like all the mythic feats cost a mythic point to use

[steel blade]

or else the feat just keys off of a check made with mythic prof, so, you'd spend the point to make a roll and then get that feat's thing

[clever cobalt]

Have soem screenshots a friend hared

[surreal basin]

Hm

Okay

I….. don’t know how I feel about this

[steel blade]

there is also a level 8 feat that's just, 1-action 'gain a mythic point' once/day

[solar storm]

lmfao that art

[steel blade]

o, level 2-10 mythic feats all either cost a mythic point or key off a mythic prof roll, but there's plenty of level 12-20 feats that don't cost a point

(and most of the feats that cost a point also say 'make a roll at mythic proficiency'/'use mythic prof to determine a DC')

[surreal basin]

I think my group is gonna chafe against the hero point thing

Since we tend to reroll a lot of stuff lol

[sinful gyro]

I'd just allow players to have both

And maybe cut the ability for hero points to be used for death saves

[echo briar]

So, how good are mythic monsters at being approximations of level 26+?

Like, can a mythic monster lower than lvl 25 reliably beat a level 25 non mythic monster?

[wooden orbit]

Anyone know what all the new Nephilim heritages are?

[limber comet]

Aphorite, Ganzi, Battleborn, and Faultspawn

[wooden orbit]

battleborn?

[limber comet]

Yeah, twas announced a lil while ago but it's basically a lineage about being touched by einherjar or valkyries

[wooden orbit]

I need this heritage in my life now

I know the others but Battleborn is new to me

[solar storm]

https://tenor.com/view/battleborn-battleborn-game-montana-yeah-yes-gif-27158017

[limber comet]

Battleblooded, whatever

Close enough

[frank crystal]

oh neat einherjar nephilim

[wooden orbit]

Was there any art for these entries?

[echo briar]

I heard somewhere that the bloodrager has psychic spellcasting, is that true?

That seems so unlike the 1e version that I would expect it to have a different name (and for an archetype that can not cast divine spells to be in a book about a divine war)

[turbid dagger]

They get divine and arcane list, and slotwise they have archetype casting
That might have been what the person meant- only two slots per spell level

[echo briar]

yea, that makes way more sense

also, mythic fundimental runes are a thing now.

lvl 20, make your weapon +4 or add an additional damage die

[wooden orbit]

[limber comet]

I'm not entirely sure but we do get stats for a kaiju and, surprisingly enough, the ||Oliphaunt of Jandelay||

Though that latter one is

Whew, it's a doozy

The comparison between mythic and non mythic monsters is something someone more inclined with numbers would have to do but my answer is a solid maybe

[fast hill]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/215058718646206474/1296412743515111455/paizo-sure-keeps-writing-wild-stuff-to-play-uh-v0-0ryaim8penpd1.png?ex=671231f4&is=6710e074&hm=fdbba964573ccd59ce27c5a076f47a9389fc7edbfc728d966b465f42131eaf44&

[clever cobalt]

Chat, fish react them

[limber comet]

THE WALRUS

Let's not forget the otters

Or the telekinetic cuttlefish

[vast burrow]

IT'S OUT

Well, not out- but you get what I mean

FUCK YEAHHHHHH

Also goddamn BLG is quick with it

[wary yoke]

NGL, ||the Osirion/Egyptian pantheon being killed off is really funny and reeks of wanting to make stuff that Paizo can copyright||

[solar tendon]

||seems kinda weird considering people are really into the golarion/earth connections I feel||

[clever cobalt]

God I want the book so bad

It's on my mind all the time

[wary yoke]

||That and I don't like the idea of explicitly real-world religious figures being killed off for an event||

[upbeat ridge]

Isn’t this busted as hell and outmodes any actual dual weapon build

Since you can just use a 2 handed weapon for more damage

[solar tendon]

d4 weapon dice sucks

but also economically kinda yes

[turbid dagger]

Well, its certainly very good
But if I am to say there are downsides-
The other end is d4, yeah
It's a stance, so an action of out the tank at the start of every fight + you can't take other stances
You are restricted in the weapons, and therefore traits and magic items, you can use
There's an additional hidden cost for fighters specifically, where the haft strike is a club but the stance only works for hammers, spears, and polearms
So Standard Mastery Weirdness

[solar tendon]

yeah stance opportunity cost plus the power of dual weapons is already baked into feat requirements anyway

letting a ranger use twin takedown with a staff doesn't really take anything away from dual weapon ranger

[turbid dagger]

To give an example, for my double slice fighter, I'd likely still do his weapon pair of Scizore + Kukri
Scizore has Parry so +2 AC from twin parry, and I can take the Scizore Of The Crab to both get its amazing Grab ability and get access to Grapple, Trip, and Disarm with full hands

[solar tendon]

yeah a lot of the utility in dual weapon is being able to have variety in tags

[turbid dagger]

Its definitely VERY good though
I am already prepping for making a Maul Ranger once WoI drops

[upbeat ridge]

Yeah, and exemplar dedication seems busted too. I get that it’s rare but rarity shouldn’t make something more powerful

[tough perch]

i think haft striker sounds kinda mid

[solar tendon]

the real benefit is just the rune economy

[tough perch]

haft probably doesn't earn reach

best damage output is 1d12 and a 1d4 weapons, which is okay

[tough perch]

it does do that

i think the real reason to take it is to enable rogue and ranger, classes with a lot of support for two weapon fighting, to work fine with two handed favored weapons

[upbeat ridge]

Ok I lied, it doesn’t out damage dual weapons

[solar tendon]

other than the rune economy it's more of a flavour pick

you do get bigger damage dice on your main weapon

[upbeat ridge]

Since you can do d8 + d8 which is 9 average damage, and you can get d12 + d4 which is the same

[tough perch]

you do get the same average with the second weapon being agile, which is a bit better

[upbeat ridge]

Right

[solar tendon]

but thats taking your stance and a feat slot

[upbeat ridge]

Since there are no d8 agile weapons

But like… that isn’t too wild

[tough perch]

not worth it at all, on a pure optimization mindset imo

[upbeat ridge]

yeah probs

[tough perch]

the real benefit is using twin takedown with a greataxe on a vindicator of Angradd

[upbeat ridge]

theres some other wild shit in this book apparently?

[tough perch]

or twin feint on an avenger of angradd

[upbeat ridge]

doesnt a class archetype get ranged reactive strike?

[tough perch]

haven't heard about that yet

[clever cobalt]

I have heard the Exemplar Dedication is busted

But I haven't seen the book myself yet, alas

[upbeat ridge]

it was made rare by erratta but even then, say if a GM wanted to do an FA exemplar archetype only game, things might get a tad too strong for normal enocunter balancing

(say all the pcs of whatever class get some kind of divine spark through whatever event, avoids any main charcter syndrome from one person being a full exemplar)

rarity shouldnt affect power

[rustic cape]

You're basically trading agile for an action to get into the stance

Really it'll be best on agile grace fighters

But like ... that's a bunch of investment

To get some good stuff

[warped orbit]

Vindicator has one against magic specifically apparently

Does also disrupt on hit already

[rapid wagon]

thought this was warhammer talk for a half second

got me confused

lol

thoughts on good classes to dual wield?

fighter seems a given

maybe monk

ranger?

can a dual wielding barbarian be a thing?

[clever cobalt]

Ranger is good

Barbarian is good but agile lowers their rage damage

Also re: WoI lore ||the Knights of Lastwall got fucked. Again.||

||hundreds of Knights of Lastwall died and came back as undead Lost Knights, so now the undead have perfect knowledge of the Knights' tactics and plans||

[surreal basin]

LMAO

that’s incredible

[warped orbit]

They just can't catch a break

[warped orbit]

Barb with Dual Weapon Warrior works quite well

You just have to either accept lower Rage damage on offhand, or take the -2 for no agile

[surreal basin]

As for the osirion thing ||if we’re worried about being respectful to the religions from which they hailed I think that ship probably sailed when we used them as deities in this fantasy setting, 1 to 1||

[clever cobalt]

||At least we're getting some KoL APs soon||

[turbid dagger]

As I said on the PF2e discord:
This is every metaplot event for Lastwall https://tenor.com/buURG.gif

[clever cobalt]

Hopefully the KoL AP will fix some of this

[wary yoke]

||It just feels like "yeah, this pantheon was strong enough to be worshipped between multiple worlds for tens of thousands of years and THIS THING WE MADE UP KILLED THEM"||

[turbid dagger]

Also RE: Haft Striker
The build that really entices me for it is precision ranger
Because you get the big dumb damage dice to slap your big hit onto
But if you miss with the d12 you still have the agile followup to potentially proc your damage for that round

[upbeat ridge]

What are the class archetypes in the book?

[turbid dagger]

Bloodrager (barb), Vindicator (ranger), Avenger (rogue), Warrior Of Legend (Fighter), Seneschal (Witch)
I believe

[surreal basin]

||I guess so. Idk, I guess I just don’t think it’s a huge deal - this was basically already their status quo in the setting after getting clowned on by Nethys and Geb to my understanding||

Oh yeah is warrior of legend good at all btw if anyone had the book

*has

[upbeat ridge]

Wasn’t there a cleric one?

[clever cobalt]

Who here has the book, anyways?

[turbid dagger]

Thats coming in Divine Mysteries

[upbeat ridge]

Ah

[steel blade]

it has a feat that non-WoL Fighters can take, that lets you step and strike(or vice versa) with a polearm for 1 action

no flourish or other usage limit, so you can do it multiple times a turn

as far as the archetype itself, it's neat, has stuff playing with the Doomed condition(you do extra damage with polearms equal to your Doomed)

[upbeat ridge]

Warrior of legend seems like exemplar lite? In terms of flavor

[surreal basin]

GOD I NEED THIS BOOK AGGGGH

[frank crystal]

Saaaame

[turbid dagger]

I am fiending yes

[frank crystal]

My friend who normally sends me the paizo books can’t rn because they’re, god listen to this, on their honeymoon

God, what a loooser

[turbid dagger]

Unbeliavable 🙄

[frank crystal]

Can’t believe him rn

Smh

[surreal basin]

My normal method of getting them early isn’t applicable for WOI….

[frank crystal]

What is it?

[surreal basin]

Secret ;3

[frank crystal]

[rustic cape]

My gf is playing one and it's really strong

[rapid wagon]

that gladdens me

i like two axe barb vibes more than big axe barb

[surreal basin]

Using agile weapons or biting the accuracy loss?

[rustic cape]

Accuracy loss

[surreal basin]

Valid

That’s what I would choose

[frank crystal]

The damage is so good

[rapid wagon]

are agile weapons bad?

[echo briar]

only on barbs

[light gyro]

a bad murder blames her tools

[rustic cape]

No but barb gets half their rage bonus to damage with them

[rapid wagon]

ahh

[frank crystal]

A good murderer uses the biggest tool possible

[warped orbit]

Agile is very good

[wary yoke]

I don't know if this will be balanced, but I've been converting a Harpy heritage and I realized I could make a really fun Talon Dive feat that weaponizes the falling rules

[rustic cape]

And if you're a ligneous barb or something that works out to a lot of missed damage, especially later on

[warped orbit]

So because Barb has high flat damage, they are discouraged from using it

[frank crystal]

But double slice is double slice either way

[rustic cape]

Have you looked at anthropomorphic animal? The stuff for winged animal might give you some ideas

[surreal basin]

Honestly

I think w double slice a good thing would be a normal weapon + agile weapon

If you so desired

For barb

You’d only get half rage damage on the second hit but you’d avoid the penalty

[warped orbit]

Yeah I'd agree

[rapid wagon]

axe/tomahawk + dagger seems a cool thematic combo

[wary yoke]

I've mostly been going off of Strix

[rustic cape]

Probably be decent with the new stance feat if you could get it via dedication

Although really I think it depends on your instinct

[warped orbit]

Giant is usually the one most inclined to Double Slice

[rapid wagon]

id have thought fury for bigger damage bonus no?

[rustic cape]

And giant has the most to lose

As does ligneous

[warped orbit]

Because of the high bonus, and also the extra reach from getting big

[rustic cape]

I dunno, I'd be interested in seeing actual math on it

[echo briar]

does someone have a list of all the new Ikons? There are 7 of each type in the book, so there should be 2 new weapons, and 3 new body and worn ikons.

[warped orbit]

It's another case where the infamous dual flickmace came up a lot

[rustic cape]

XD

[surreal basin]

Tbh I think with the change to the crit spec flickmaces would be less prevalent

Well

I don’t think they were ever actually prevalent but

Yknow

[rustic cape]

The other thing is that barb loses less than some classes by using a weapon with low damage dice

[warped orbit]

Flail has less of an advantage now

[rustic cape]

Since flat damage

[surreal basin]

It’s the precision thing I was talking about earlier yeah

[warped orbit]

I do still think Hammer and flail are still some of the best crit specs even after the nerf

[surreal basin]

Classes that add additional damage really couldn’t give a shit

About the damage die/modifier of the base weapon setup

[trail nova]

That’s no excuse, I had a guy answer random undergrads asking about his research day after his wedding.

[solar storm]

Real real real I’m not sure how big of a thing they were outside of reddit boards and discussions

[frank crystal]

That’s what I’m saying!

[warped orbit]

Yeah I don't think it was that widespread, but it was part of the bits of it often cited

But yeah either way I'd probably still say the regular setup of one agile and one non agile is probably best

If you are just Double Slicing

[frank crystal]

Honestly the only reason I don’t think it was that common is because a flick mace isn’t exactly a cool sounding weapon

And I feel like hardly anyone makes martial gnomes

[solar tendon]

they just made humans instead

[frank crystal]

And I know you don’t have to make a gnome to use it but like, I feel like the average PF2E player don’t really look at ancestral weapons unless they’re that ancestry

[solar tendon]

cause unconventional weaponry

which also prompts ppl to look at ancestry advanced weapons

[rustic cape]

Haft striker stance maul barbarians incoming?

[thorny berry]

so, if we're in spoiler posting territory, how's animist looking? Mostly as far as like, what did the subclass situation end up shaking out to and how's that one gish spirit work rip battle oracle

[clever cobalt]

Admittedly I'm trying really hard not to beg for someone to gimme a loook

[clever cobalt]

And from what I'm hearing. Mostly unchanged but still good

[rustic cape]

I'm in favor since animist is almost certainly my favorite class

Any word on what new spirits have been added?

I feel like we need a storm spirit

[clever cobalt]

There we some but alas I forget what they were

[rustic cape]

I also heard a rumor that sustaining dance was becoming a class feature instead of a very, very obligatory feat. Any word on that?

[clever cobalt]

Yeah, though iirc it's later in the class

[echo briar]

its a subclass feature

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs55aqj?All-Things-Animist#29 this should have most of what is known

[steel blade]

ye, liturgist gets it at level 9

all other subclasses are fucked out of it

[frank crystal]

Hmm, what’s the best spelllist for a pure blasting sorc?

Rn I’m kinda thinking either arcane or primal

[echo briar]

primal

[frank crystal]

Any particular spells from primal?

[rustic cape]

Thanks! Good stuff

[rustic cape]

Notably though, Vanguard of Roaring Waters lets you spoof it a bit

[echo briar]

Chain lightning is the gold standard

[steel blade]

specifically only with that one vessel spell

[rustic cape]

Yeah

[frank crystal]

Chain lightning is super strong yah

[rustic cape]

Pretty good as an action tho

Either way my Channeler is gonna be a Liturgist

[wooden orbit]

What’s out?

[vast burrow]

holy that's a necropost haha

Anyways I meant WoI

Which is why I said "not technically out" because it's not, some people just have early access

[limber comet]

https://x.com/paizo/status/1846944579406164372?t=lrO5D4Qlp8nbUD3sdbCnHQ&s=19

Paizo (@paizo) on X

We've had mythic rules, yes. But what about alternative mythic rules?
https://t.co/3D5HydYt8T

Twitter · Oct 17, 2024, 4:01 PM

[rustic cape]

Oh huh

I guess they're shooting twice in the hopes of hitting at least once

[limber comet]

I mean the mythic rules as they are, are fine enough

And this is moreso like having a party full of non-mythic pcs with one mythic pc

Also there's some errata in there too

Not a lot

[warped orbit]

Huh, polearms are apparently eating good in WoI

One of the new feats added to Fighter, which I assume Warrior of Legend also has, is Needle in the Gods' Eyes at 16
2a, Leap up to your speed, vertical or horizontal, then make two attacks at the same MAP

Oh wait, that one doesn't even require polearm or spear

[frank crystal]

Dragoon build support?

[worthy stump]

Hell yeah

at level 16

[frank crystal]

Huh, for a homebrew blood sorc bloodline, y’all think primal, occult or arcane fits the best?

[warped orbit]

Okay Exemplar dedication apparently just straight up gives you a single ikon

[frank crystal]

That’s a bit insane

[warped orbit]

Including its immanence and transcendence

[limber comet]

Blood themed specifically? Probably occult

[warped orbit]

So you can just take a weapon ikon for the +2 damage per die

[limber comet]

If your gm allows it

Cuz rarity

[frank crystal]

It’s more your blood specifically

Not like, blood rituals

[limber comet]

Even still

Probably occult

[frank crystal]

Alright

[limber comet]

If I'm not mistaken you can use non-occult spells for granted bloodline spells but I could be wrong

[frank crystal]

I think so?

[worthy stump]

Yup, you can

Phoenix sorcerer, for instance, has See the Unseen at rank 2, which isn’t in the Primal list iirc

[rustic cape]

Can we get a little more specificity? Is the idea that like, you've made yourself a sorc by messing with your own blood for power?

[surreal basin]

Hmmmm

Might have a game where I run free archetype AND mythic side by side coming up

[craggy thunder]

nice

[frank crystal]

It’s more like due to your bloodline you can manipulate your blood and flesh

Rn I’m thinking some kinda connection to like, a sorta homunculus deal

[warped orbit]

slightly baffled by the Vindicator mark spells being a spell attack and a saving throw

[rustic cape]

Oooof

[wary yoke]

... Huh. That's worrying.

[warped orbit]

their Edge is also +1 spell attack and -1 penalty for enemy saves against their spells, increasing to +2/-2 later
but still weird

[solar tendon]

that's a funny edge

like

[clever cobalt]

Gah why is my book taking forever to ship

I wanna see it so badly

[craggy thunder]

Are people starting to get their WoI pdfs?

[wary yoke]

So wait, instead of something really powerful like Flurry or even Precision, vindicators get... a slight bonus to their focus spells?

[warped orbit]

yeah

[wary yoke]

Lovely.

[solar tendon]

the bonus type is the important thing honestly

[echo briar]

well, to all spells

it will actually have a decent spell dc

and share prey is going to be huge

[warped orbit]

to all divine spells AFAIK

I have not seen anyone say the type of bonus/penalty yet

[solar tendon]

if its status it's probably pretty useless unfortunately

at least, not super special

[warped orbit]

I'd hope circumstance bonus

[solar tendon]

mm

I can't think of much competition there

[echo briar]

status bonus to spell dc is unheard of

[solar tendon]

I don't think it's a dc bonus?

[warped orbit]

it's a penalty to your Prey's saves , not a bonus to your DC

[echo briar]

ah, unfortunate

[warped orbit]

preliminary math seems to show that with the Edge, the Vindicator about keeps up with casters in terms of accuracy

which is... okay

if you also mainline Wis at every opportunity, of course

[solar tendon]

I guess that's

pretty decent

like give up edge to be a magus

better than a magus?

idk

[warped orbit]

they do also get archetype divine casting basically

and can pick up Domain spells

[solar tendon]

but share prey is the big deal if it's any good

there's good save focus spells I think

share the pain is fun

[echo briar]

You can also use religion for pretty much all social checks... if you're in a settlement that has a church to your deity

[warped orbit]

yeah

[echo briar]

sorry, you can not use it in the woods

[wary yoke]

Everything I'm hearing is making the vindicator more and more useless (for my purposes)

[solar tendon]

wot if I'm erastil

[echo briar]

is the woods a settlement? if so yes

[warped orbit]

the best thing Vindicator gets is Disrupt Opposed Magic
which is at 8th, when an enemy casts a spell, as a reaction make a Strike with your deity's favored weapon (must also be within first range increment if ranged), if it hits the spell is disrupted

also I just saw a comment indicating the Edge benefits may be status bonus/penalty

which is a little unfortunate

[solar tendon]

kinda weird

outwit is circumstance

[warped orbit]

I'll wait till I see the actual text

[wary yoke]

So why would that be a problem?

[warped orbit]

status is more common via spells

and other conditions

so it wouldn't stack with those

ie if your party Bard uses their Courageous Anthem, that also gives you a +1 status bonus on attacks
or similarly if you Frighten 1 an enemy with Demoralize, it would also inflict a -1 status penalty

[wary yoke]

Ah

[warped orbit]

in other news
Avenger looks pretty good

gain Hunt Prey, you can Sneak Attack with your deity's favored weapon against your Prey
it seems like you still need them off guard though, the Prey just lets you do it with favored weapon

they also get access to most of the Ranger dual wield feats

oh and also medium armor

they apparently also have some unique feats about inflicting Doomed, and that potentially leading to an instakill
but that seems very gimmicky, and they also have Incap naturally

[echo briar]

do they get str as a key stat?

[warped orbit]

didn't mention

I would probably assume it lets you choose at least

especially with granting medium

Embodiment of Battle Animist also seems to have made it through largely unchanged
except for Sustaining Dance moving to 9th level class feature for one of the subclasses instead of a feat now

[thorny berry]

that's a little disappointing, I wasn't crazy about it before

like even with sustaining dance you are not casting a two-action spell and attacking without being quickened

having to sustain in general is just brutal, there's not a lot of bonuses I would take in exchange for 'you have to cast this initially and also you're slowed 1 unless you move throughout'

but hey still better than battle oracle

[surreal basin]

Tbh I kinda think they should stop making these weird psuedogishes

There’s quite a few of them and none of them are very good lol

[thorny berry]

I mean I like 'em they just need to be on the level of wild druid and (new) warpriest cleric

like I think those two are fine

[solar tendon]

yeah

[thorny berry]

probably also the one bard where you just snap off the occasional shot to extend your cantrip

[solar tendon]

like if they dont want them to be possible in the system doing weird trap options is just mean

[thorny berry]

strong agree

[surreal basin]

I don’t think they’re like

Intentionally traps

[trail nova]

I think Pazio knows people want to be Gishes, but for some reason didn't set PF 2e up to make Gishes very possible. Which as I've commented before, is somewhat baffling given how 1e had Gishes as the vast majority of fan-favorite classes.

[thorny berry]

I feel like they just vastly overrate the power of a full cater making a third-action single 'still not really good as a martial' attack

like even if you straight slapped master proficiency on there they still might or might not have specialization, they won't have any sort of legendary prof/additional damage feature, they'd have to pay feat costs to get good meta strikes (please do not balance casters around casters just having bad feats I beg)

[echo briar]

Honestly, I think you're underestimating the power of a 3rd action mapless attack

although it is way better with a bow

[thorny berry]

I mean there's certainly not much of a revealed preference for most casters taking a ranged weapon to sneak them in there

just about everyone favors staves

(personally I find pistol + raconteur's reload a bit cute on cha casters)

[wary yoke]

Does PF2E have a way to have a different weapon count as a favored weapon?

... Besides Syncretism?

[echo briar]

Player crit fails a check to RK about the bellflowers. Falls for Cheliax propaganda

[clever cobalt]

book just came through

fuck yeah

[thorny berry]

Oh apparently there's a free supplement pdf of alternate mythic rules

That's cool of paizo

[warped orbit]

it's basically just a few bits on what to do if you want to run a group of mixed Mythic and non Mythic

or high Mythic abilities at lower levels

more suggestions

it also has some day 0 errata

[turbid dagger]

So uh
I just learned something
Haft Striker's haft attack
Is a simple weapon
So simple damage boosts let you
Sling a d6 and a d12

Is there a way to poach the damage die boosts from cleric or champion?

[clever cobalt]

👀

[surreal basin]

Inventor can also improve simple weapons

Oh hey animist gets 8 HP

that’s unusual for casters no?

[echo briar]

That’s the standard. Only 3 have 6

[surreal basin]

Huh okay

[warped orbit]

it's only Wizard, Sorc, and Witch at 6 I believe?

[limber comet]

Psychic too

[warped orbit]

but yeah Animist has quite good defenses

[surreal basin]

Oh shit animist has Learn a Spell

[limber comet]

Also I wanted Exemplar to have an undeath/death themed epithet so I could be Zagreus

[warped orbit]

yeah spontaneous casters have Learn A Spell mostly for uncommon access

[surreal basin]

Oh i misread lol

I thought they had a pseudo spell book

They do not

[solar storm]

Oh so garden of healing got "nerfed"

Nerfed evaded we stay time efficient spiritual bros

[steel blade]

looks like it got buffed to me

well, emotion and mental traits added, but text-wise the +1 to saves against emotion effects is new

[solar storm]

I think it was buffed in normal use cases

The only nerf is if you cast it and immediately cast it again

[rustic cape]

You might under some circumstances want to drop it and then restart it the next round

That is no longer viable

It commits you now

[solar storm]

That's true

IME - wait I need to check a feat

[rustic cape]

The only other thing is that it falls into the scope of "time pressure means you can't do thing more than once" wrt how the game and GMs generally treat time

[solar storm]

No no no animist bros we got too cocky

(This is an extremely reasonable nerf I think)

Or rework

Kinda both

[rustic cape]

... I mean that's not a nerf

[solar storm]

Used to be a 2nd level feat

[rustic cape]

Right, sorry, they pushed it back

But it's actually stronger

[solar storm]

Yeah

[rustic cape]

It used to be Leap only

[solar storm]

Its been buffed but takes 7 more levels to get and is now a subclass benefit not a feat

[rustic cape]

And yeah, I think moving it back is very reasonable

[solar storm]

Which is good because it was way too good of a feat

[rustic cape]

Absolutely

And one of the other subclasses gets two simultaneous primary apparitions at the same time

[solar storm]

oh sick

I'll probably have to take that

[rustic cape]

At 9th

[solar storm]

I'm reworking my Rivethun Dwarf from Oracle to Animist

[rustic cape]

Yeah there's a serious choice between those two now

As opposed to just "channeler is best"

[solar storm]

Since I think Animist is probably the best option for Rivethun

[rustic cape]

So, having been playing an animist for the last few weeks

I fucking love animist

It is so much fun

I desperately want to know about the new apparitions

[trail nova]

Given that Shaman was the OG Rivethun class and Animist takes a lot of notes from it, makes sense.

[rustic cape]

The class is enormously dynamic and will be absolute murder to players who get option paralysis

It'll be like getting a shot of botulism straight to the heart, they'll keel over dead

But if you relish having so many fucking ways to break down your turns at any given time?

[echo briar]

One thing I just realized, they forgot you don’t actually need to tumble through a creature to use the tumble through action again

[solar storm]

I've been running a game for one for a while and its super fun

[rustic cape]

This is the fuckin' best

[solar storm]

Very exciting and dynamic caster

[echo briar]

It’s super simple errata/ house rule, but it’s funny they made this mistake twice