Pathfinder

[solar storm]

Like I guess Psychic is sort of like that with low spell slots but full progression

[limber comet]

The 3 action complaint is wild to me honestly but I guess some people just don't like it

[silver geyser]

Finding something to do with the third action gets tricky sometimes.

[solar storm]

I do think PF2 could use more variable action and non-2 action spells

It makes casters feel very linear compared with martials

[limber comet]

Yeahhhh

[trail nova]

I have no idea, but they were Pazio’s most interesting designs in 1e, and the awkward conversions of stuff like Magus feel weird.

And the 3-action system I’ve largely soured on it having an excessive number of bookkeeping actions and action taxes, so it frequently comes out to “2 action thing and 1 action thing, or a move if you must” - I just generally prefer it when movement is isolated as an action and not in direct competition with other options.

[silver geyser]

The Magus is a great conversion though.

In that it doesn't have the 1e Magus "I hope you like only shocking grasp through a scimitar"

[trail nova]

See, I kind of hate that the Magus focused on spell strike, and not spell combat.

[silver geyser]

I'm not sure what you thought 1e Magus focused on.

[trail nova]

The action compression of spell combat and uses with things other than “I stab you and channel magic” was the interesting part to me - 2e just took Shocking Grasp Magus and made it a slightly broader spell and weapon selection.

[tough perch]

i didn't play 1e but i kind of agree with the sentiment

magus feels too focused on spellstriking

i'd be more interested in a character that mixes magic and combat in other ways

[silver geyser]

So, Spellstrike was the actual Magus class feature.

Like, you had a list full of damaging spells.

And the ability to get a better crit on those spells.

While also compressing you actions like Spell Combat, except you're not taking a -2 on all your attack rolls.

So the choice was "Make a full attack with a -2 penalty as a 3/4 BAB and also cast a spell that's a standard action" or "Cast a spell with an increased crit range through your melee attack." While there's times were the former is better, it's pretty clear which is the real option.

[trail nova]

Yeah, I agree, but that wasn’t what made Magus interesting, merely powerful. I would have much preferred they focused on the interesting parts- think of how cool a melee fighter that’s also throwing up walls of flame and entangling webs, distracting illusions or stunning foes with mental blasts. Maybe mixing in various buffing incantations in between sword strikes.

[silver geyser]

Spellstrike defined how the class was actually played.

Interesting is all well and good, but if you're recreating a class for a new edition, you should prioritize the thing people used the most.

[limber comet]

I think the idea is cool but in concept it might be too strong if you're basically casting buff spells the casters of your party might cast, while still wading into the fray yourself

[tough perch]

i mean, those just need to be weaker compared to what a caster would have

either by having little spells slots, or slots of lower ranks

wavecasting is a cool way to have half casters have competitive spells while not eclipsing casters, but i also want to see how having lower rank slots would look like in a class like this

[warped orbit]

I'm very the opposite there
I think movement competing with other actions is a really good thing

because it makes movement more meaningful
and means forced movement actually matters more

something like a 5 ft push can still make an enemy have to spend an action to Stride first, which if movement was separate it probably wouldn't do much

[surreal basin]

Okay

Just done with part of Cosmic Birthday

First: AHHHH CONSTRUCT ARMOR

Second: glitching is a fun condition but it’s really unreliable

And have 50 percent chance to basically do nothing lol

Solarian needs some wording clarification

Like do they keep their weapon summoned/stay attuned while unconscious?

[wooden orbit]

How was the story and/or lore for Cosmic Birthday?

[surreal basin]

I’ve only done part of it but it’s been cool so far!

Very weird

[sinful gyro]

Shit gets funky fast

[sinful gyro]

I warned ye!

[solar tendon]

2e magus does get spell combat thats why spellstrike is only 2 actions at point of use

you cant use it to self buff but with expansive spellstrike you can do the aoe spell stuff

[rapid wagon]

None of the classes get a dedicated mount pet off the cuff right?

[limber comet]

No

As a base feature of the class, no

[rustic cape]

Druid at least can get an animal companion to use as a mount as early as level 1 though

Also I think we should all acknowledge this

[warped orbit]

No, but you can archetype into Cavalier at 2 for it

[rapid wagon]

ok cool, a friend pitched an undead soldier with an undead steed and a quest for vengeance against the guy who killed hte steed as a character concept

[wary yoke]

The thing I hate most about playing a magus in 2E is that there is 0 way to avoid getting smacked in the face for doing your main role

[echo briar]

Starlit span by being 50ft away, and sparkling targe by using a shield and shield blocking

[wary yoke]

And if you're not using those?

[echo briar]

Also inexorable iron gives you a bunch of temp hp, which isn’t not getting hit but is kinda close

[echo briar]

What if I’m not playing a shield using fighter? There are some options which are defensive, and some that are offensive.

The magus is better than most, because using a defensive spell is not a bad idea, particularly with your studious spells

[silver geyser]

Look, if you're going in as a someone in not a ton of armor without a shield and no defensive magic, you're gonna get hit.

[wary yoke]

When you're getting hit for 15-40 damage it's pretty meaningless

[warped orbit]

I do think Magus should not provoke reactions on Spellstrike

[rustic cape]

Mirror Image is also a spell that both exists and is dizzyingly powerful for this purpose

[echo briar]

It’s a lot of temp hp. Over 4 rounds that’s like a 20% increase in hp

[rustic cape]

I gotta say half-level temp HP per turn is not always going to save your ass, but it’s hardly meaningless

[silver geyser]

Half your level temp HP every turn is helping.

[warped orbit]

I don't think this is about general Magus durability, which is fine
But provoking Reactive Strike on doing your main ability is not great

Thaum also has that issue

[silver geyser]

How many creatures actually have reactive strike?

[rustic cape]

I’m of two minds about that

On the one hand I feel given reactive strike’s limited distribution, it should be consequential when it does show up

On the other hand I’m sympathetic to the frustration

[warped orbit]

like 20% or so, and goes up to around 30% of the higher level ones IIRC
which yes, isn't that many ultimately
but a Magus being punished for doing the entire gimmick of the class isn't great IMO

[silver geyser]

If it's about under a third at higher levels, and a fifth at lower levels that just seems... Fine?

[wary yoke]

"I'm only punished for doing my entire gimmick by the things that I really need to hit"

Sorry, my Kingmaker game just went through the utter bullshit of the Stag Lord last night

[silver geyser]

So what defensive measures did you take for the BBEG of Book 1?

[warped orbit]

what defensive measures can you take to not provoke RS on Spellstrike?

[silver geyser]

Talking your friends into provoking strikes for you, any of the defensive spells to help you potentially avoid them.

[warped orbit]

saying "just deal with eating that extra RS" isn't really a great counterargument IMO

[rustic cape]

I don’t think that is the counterargument, the counterargument is “yes it’s a hazard the class has to deal with, that’s fine and you can play around it”

[warped orbit]

I just don't think a class eating RS for doing its thing is good
Thaum provoking RS all the time is also an issue IMO, and the same goes for all the melee Gunslingers

[silver geyser]

And Inventor as well.

[warped orbit]

if there's stuff you would nearly always want to do in melee range, I don't think it should provoke

like, what if Grab and Trip had manipulate

[novel merlin]

Creatures with RS are rare enough to where it feels more like an enemy with high will saves against an occult caster. There's not a lot of getting around it.

You can also do things like just popping cascade and attacking normally until someone else baits out a reactive strike or something. You don't have to spellstrike every turn.

[silver geyser]

Hrm. Actually, looking at things in Kingmaker again, I'm seeing a very different problem here

[novel merlin]

Most the time a fight will have multiple enemies and you can just fight the guy without RS

[silver geyser]

||Nobody in that encounter has Reactive Strike||

[clever cobalt]

RS becomes a lot more common at higher levels

And bosses of all levels tend to have it

[novel merlin]

There are also a ton of spells that prevent reactions

Get your friendly full caster to prepare one

[clever cobalt]

The Magus will primarily focus on damage spells though

Which often do trigger RS

[novel merlin]

Presumably you have a party member that can also cast spells

Or use a scroll/wand

[clever cobalt]

Scrolls are manipulate

Also allies can't cast spells for you if you're a magus

[novel merlin]

Yes but the spells that prevent reactions are targeted and ranged

[silver geyser]

Yeah, the point is "Ask your friends for support"

[novel merlin]

You or an ally can easily cast them on a creature from a safe distance

[wary yoke]

That is ultimately what happened, and he ultimately died for it

[clever cobalt]

I suppose

[novel merlin]

You could just have a staff with one of the relevant spells on it using fused staff

[wary yoke]

At 3rd level?

The only reason we didn't TPK was that we had a very handy wood kineticist with Timber Sentinel

[trail nova]

RS is something where it’s common enough and impactful enough that I pretty frequently see “just assume RS until proven otherwise” as advice

[wary yoke]

"We will defeat you, no matter how much lumber it takes!"

[trail nova]

20-30% is not a tiny percentage of foes, particularly given that it skews more towards foes on the frontline who because of RS you probably can’t just run around and ignore

[warped orbit]

that's also the percentage out of all enemies

[clever cobalt]

Also, bosses vastly have RS

[warped orbit]

against specific enemies it can skew more

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[echo briar]

And apparently ||your gm messed with the encounter. Without knowing how much they messed with it, we have no clue how much of that was really a 2e problem||

[rapid wagon]

so im late to this but isnt a magus' gimmick doing nova damage, bigger than a comparable front liner?

wouldnt it be a bad thing if they were just as capable of avoiding getting hit as a full tilt fighter and just did more damage?

[warped orbit]

Magus isn't necessarily higher damage, its just more spike-y

And their action econ is very constrained

[wary yoke]

Does the Stag Lord not have a RS?

[echo briar]

according to this, no

[wary yoke]

Also, I might be missing something, but in terms of hampering the ability to hit things, does Blind actually do anything over Dazzled?

[echo briar]

its twice as good

[warped orbit]

yes, it does a lot
it's just stated indirectly, so it can be hard to realize

[wary yoke]

Ah

[warped orbit]

basically, if they are Blinded and sight is their only precise sense, everyone else is Hidden

this means they now have to make a DC 11 flat check on anything targeting, and they are offguard to all attacks

also everything is difficult terrain

which also means they cannot Step

[rustic cape]

In fairness to the opposing position, they are already easier to hit than a fighter due to lighter armor and the possibly more MAD stat spread

[warped orbit]

just most of this is something you need to kinda infer indirectly through the visibility rules

[rapid wagon]

That makes sense. I mentally think of them as flankers generally rather than full front liners

[warped orbit]

it's also again not about Magus durability in general
just about whether Spellstrike should provoke Reactive Strike and other reactions or not

[ocean cobalt]

this is old but i think 20% of all enemies total having RS really isn't a full picture

imo the metric is: of the monsters that are specifically frontliners, and of the frontliners that are specifically meant to threaten and control access to adjacent spaces. how many of those have RS

and also, how many monsters have non-RS reactions that trigger off of concentrate or manipulate actions, etc

[solar tendon]

it also depends on whoever's designing the encounters

like if your gm looks for/makes rs creatures for most every enemy team comp that's different to say, SoT encounter design where there's like two I think

[echo briar]

Also most things with RS are humanoid. An elemental, dragon, or undead campain are unlikely to have many RSers

[light gyro]

my scary skeleton man has done nothing but fail to wrestle his fuckin sword back from the magus

[echo briar]

where as a giant, human, or fiend campaign is likely to have problems.

My stolen fates campaign has not had a ton of issues, nor has my frozen flame campaign

Then again, my stolen fates bard is so good at not being near the enemy that dirge of doom is not great, because nothings ever in range

[silver geyser]

This is dangerously close to making me do a project to check

There's 2864 creatures/NPCs on Archives of Nethys

If I cut out spoilers, that drops to 1738

Cutting out from APs period on top of that gets us 1568 creatures/NPCs.

[rustic cape]

Aye, I’ve noticed that APs are pretty cautious about spreading around the reactive strikes

[ocean cobalt]

:O

[turbid dagger]

Ooooo dragons demand is like
Quite close to halfway funded
I wonder if there's like
A graph that shows the average number of donations over time for Kickstarter projects
Like, how much does the cash flow fall off after the first day

[warped orbit]

first few days is usually a large chunk, and then near the end is another large influx

[turbid dagger]

Basically I'm trying to statistics my way into knowing if it'll get funded or not 😞

[silver geyser]

Started the project.
Level -1 has 57 creatures. Out of them, the Common Eurypterid is the only one with Reactive Strike. No others have a reaction that keys off of Manipulate.

Not surprising: There's a lot of non-combatants here

[rustic cape]

I think also considering that -1s are almost definitionally mooks at all levels

That Paizo is unlikely to give it to them

Actually, thought: what if there were a lesser, enemy-only version of reactive strike that only worked on lower level creatures?

Like incapacitation but oriented towards letting you use formerly challenging enemies more as mooks?

[silver geyser]

Level 0 is rocking 46 creatures. The Grindylow not only has Reactive Strike, it gets an extra reaction specifically for it.

And that's the only one there

[rustic cape]

So that's its specific schtick?

[surreal basin]

okay so my players picked up some

essentially giant kraken kidneys

[silver geyser]

The extra reaction is specifically for its Tentacle, which has Grab.

[silver geyser]

There's definitely a market

[surreal basin]

and know a fleshwarper who i have offering fucked up special grafts
I'm thinking a lower flat dc against persistent poison damage
and a free action where you get fortune on a save against poison or disease...... but im not sure how often it should be usable

[light gyro]

there's gotta be an item with that ability somewhere

actually maybe not fortune, its pretty rare

[surreal basin]

yeah

I just allow for a lot of stupid custom bullshit

(in exchange for increased encounters per level and my games generally be harder)

this is a game where ive let people buy stuff they should NOT be allowed to lol

Hyperboosted Immune System
4000 GP + 1 Kraken Blood Filter
Change the Flat Check for Bleed and Poison Persistent Damage to 10
Once per day, for one minute gain fortune on saves against poison or disease

(total item value of about 7000 gp, and requires an item they only have 2 of)

[surreal basin]

Unrelated

I really like Starfinder grafts not taking investment slots

I hope they don’t change that

Cause it feels like there’d be way too much fighting for investment

[echo briar]

Interesting thing about the WotI timing, Gorum gets existential during WWI, which is when the common perception about war from honor and adventure to pointless destruction changed on earth

Is this related? Probably not, but it is neat

[limber comet]

Oh huh

Rad

[wooden orbit]

So why are there both Demons and Daemons? Whats the difference? Other than planes, and one having the Riders

[limber comet]

Daemons eat and destroy souls

Demons exist on corruption and sin

[trail nova]

As for why they’re distinct, AD&D made the distinction and people have just kept it around.

[heavy fulcrum]

demons are also made of souls

not in that they are "dead people who became evil", just that sometimes soulstuff goes bad because the outer planes are funky and that corrupted soulstuff evolved into demons

this first happened a million billion years ago and its just kind of automatic for any souls that get lost down there

[silver geyser]

It is time for Level 1 now! There is... Quite a few more creatures here. 142 total. Out of those, we have the following with Reactive Strike:
Drow Fighter
Hobgoblin Soldier
Lizardfolk Defender
Orc Veteran
Orc Warrior
Oread Guard

Man, out of the 245 creatures so far, there's eight with Reactive Strike.

The pace is gonna pick up eventually.

The Eurypterid is the real oddball in the group so far. The others are sapient frontline fighters.

[surreal basin]

and this isn't including creatures from aps and such yes

[silver geyser]

Correct.

[surreal basin]

[silver geyser]

I have turned off all spoilers.

The numbers shoot up a lot if you include AP stuff.

Like, this is going to not be including about 900 creatures/NPC's.

[limber comet]

Eurypterid sweep

[silver geyser]

Level 2 time! 146 this time. The final results for Reactive Strike are:

Azarketi Explorer
Deep Gnome Warrior
Ghoul Soldier
Giant Viper (requires the Coil action to prep)
Nagaji Soldier
Orc Commander
Orc Warchief
Pirate
Rokurokubi (Only for bite)
Ruffian
Sinspawn
Umbral Gnome Warrior

Got close to doubling the number of creatures who have Reactive Strike! As ever, the rule seems to be simple: If it's a trained soldier or meant for such a role, it can smack you.
Total creatures with Reactive Strike: 20/391. Currently sitting at 5% for all non-AP, non-spoiler enemies of up to Level 2.

[wary yoke]

(I should note that 'trained soldiers' are rarely going to be encountered alone)

[silver geyser]

That varies based on encounter design.

[echo briar]

Whats a good cha score for a intimidation using barbarian? lvl 14

I'm kinda MAD right now, and its getting hard to justify cha over wis or dex

[silver geyser]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5163&Redirected=1

Good ole Intimidating Prowess.

[echo briar]

yea, but that only helps so much

[silver geyser]

If you've got a +1 Charisma and your +5 Strength (Probably not hard at level 14), that's the equivalent of having +3 Charisma.

[echo briar]

yea, but with +2 charisma and +5 str, thats the equivalent of +4 cha. And it keeps going.

at what point is it good enough?

[silver geyser]

+3 and your skill boost is probably enough.

[echo briar]

Is that +3 with or without intimidating prowess?

[silver geyser]

With.

[silver geyser]

Onwards to Level 3 now. We are past the level with the most creatures. The numbers of creatures per level will now only go down from here. There's still a lot in this case, with 127 present. Out of those, we have the following with Reactive Strike:

Aapoph Serpentfolk
Bunyip (Both it and the creature it's target must be in water)
Giant Scorpion (Stinger only)
Giant Whiptail Centipede (Tail only)
Jailer
River Drake (Tail Lash actually just lets them hit anyone trying to Strike or attempting a skill check within their tail's reach)
Spring-Heeled Jack
Street Skelm
Ulgrem-Lurann
Urdefhan Warrior
Watch Officer
Werewolf

The numbers are going up. We're finally getting some actual creatures outside of soldiers who can Reactive Strike.
Total Creatures with Reactive Strike: 32/518. About 6% now.

[turbid dagger]

PF2 gaming,,

'Why does every fight on Golarion turn into an alternating line of side A and side B, hmmm'
Some scholar in absalom

[silver geyser]

Flanking conga line! 😄

[echo briar]

Just step

You prevent yourself from being flanked and if you’re ally steps you can still keep flanking

[solar storm]

This just makes the dance rotate :p

[echo briar]

But everyone else needs to stride instead of step, giving you some reaction triggers

[turbid dagger]

Not a fighter to be seen here!

[rustic cape]

Given the diminishing efficacy of boosts, you can probably get everything you need to a solid +4

Which is only 1 point behind going hard on it

Like, I dunno, let’s say you start with Str/Con/Wis ancestry boosts with an Int flaw, there are several ways to do that

Get Str and Con from backgrounds

Go, I dunno, Str/Dex/Con/Cha with boosts

That starts us with 4/1/3/-1/1/1

At level 5 we do Str/Con/Dex/Cha

At level 10 we do Str/Con/Wis/Cha

That gives us a very respectable 5/2/4/-1/2/3 at 14

We could also go heavy armor barb and ignore dex entirely

[silver geyser]

Level 4 is here! 121 Creatures, you know what we're looking for:

Almiraj
Arboreal Warden
Flytrap Leshy
Frost Troll
Hellknight Armiger
Kholo Sergeant
Nightgaunt (Only with tail)
Palace Guard
Virtuous Defender (Gets to Step to put the foe in reach before the Strike)
Wereshark
Weretiger

With that done, we're finally starting to deviate from Only Trained Sapient combatants a bit more.
Total Creatures with Reactive Strike: 43/639, putting us at 6.5% of all non-spoiler creatures/NPCs.

Virtuous Defender tying with Grindylows for "Interesting Reactive Strike"

In that Grindylow's get 2 a turn, and Virtuous Defenders get to Step first.

[silver geyser]

And Level 5 after some more time. Another 105 creatures to go through for Reaction Strike, giving us:

Caligni Vanguard
Eunemvro
Flame Drake
Munsahir Trooper
Spiny Eurypterid
Vordine (Infantry Devil)

Total Creatures with Reactive Strike: 49/744, putting us at 6.5% still.

[rustic cape]

Hm, unarmed thaumaturge

[surreal basin]

It’s pretty good

[rustic cape]

Dragonblood Kholo Thaumaturge Martial Artist :D

With Dragon Stance

And Kholo Intimidate feats

[true delta]

Anime protagonist

[silver geyser]

And the project continues once more! Onto Level 6, with 99 creatures:

Aapoph Granitescale
Captain of the Guard
Cavern Troll
Clockwork Soldier
Ettin (Gets two reactions thanks to how the heads work!)
Hydra (Gets 5[!!] reactions. Thankfully a given action can only trigger Reactive Strike once.)
Monster Hunter
Terra-Cotta Soldier

Total Creatures with Reactive Strike: 57/843. The dial has shifted ever so slightly to 6.7%

[vivid lark]

wow, the assassin dedication really got nuked in the remaster

[frank crystal]

What happened?

[vivid lark]

the weapon bonuses just got replaced with 1d4 sneak attack that never increase in number of dice but becomes a 1d6 on lvl 6.

this was the old bonus "agile and finesse weapons and unarmed attacks gain the backstabber and deadly d6 weapon traits when you're attacking your mark. If the weapon or unarmed attack already has the deadly trait, increase the size of the deadly damage die by one step instead of giving it deadly d6."

and the new one also give +1 presision dmg if you already got sneak attack, like sure the old one was powerful but it was against 1 target you needed to spend 3 actions to activate.

[rustic cape]

3 actions is a steep cost, yeah

[vivid lark]

a small price to pay for +1 dmg on a rogue (and +2 to faint and -2 to be detected by your mark)

in good news, soon only a month left until bloodrager

[rustic cape]

Really enthusiastic for the finished Animist, myself

[solar tendon]

yo that sucks

assassin was so cool

[eager mountain]

sooooo

level 1-18 anthology book

The fate of two goddesses hangs in the balance as disgraced graveknight Seldeg Bhedlis prepares a ritual to rewrite history itself. Brave heroes and wicked villains alike assemble either to hinder or assist Seldeg in his plans in this heart-stopping adventure anthology for Pathfinder Second Edition!

Claws of the Tyrant is an anthology of three interconnected adventures set in the former nation of Lastwall, now known as the Gravelands. Gravelands Survivors is a Pathfinder Adventure for four 1st-level characters that follows a group of refugees as they race to keep a holy artifact out of Seldeg’s clutches. In Ashes for Ozem, an adventure for four 7th-level characters, the players assume the roles of agents assembled by Seldeg to infiltrate a stronghold of good and destroy it from within. In Of Blood and Faith, an adventure designed for four 18th-level characters, the Knights of Lastwall and their allies prepare for the final confrontation with Seldeg and end the graveknight’s machinations once and for all.```

[rustic cape]

Oh that's fun!

They should do more anthology stuff IMO

I know APs are their thing but I like shorter adventures a lot

[limber comet]

Oh that cover fucke

Fucks*

Also it's cool that we finally get a dedicated evil adventure

Even if it's just a shortie

Hopefully the evil iconics aren't as abrasively "i eat babies" as they felt in 1e

[sinful gyro]

I mean there was blood lords but ye

I'm excited for Knights of Lastwall content

Reminder that book has an aside about how the Knights fuck

[limber comet]

Blood Lords wasn't evil per se

You can be evil

But it's not like, the focus of the AP

[rustic cape]

Wasn't Blood Lords about being the enforcement arm of the health inspectors?

Sure, in an evil empire but

[warped orbit]

Blood Lords requires that you be okay with how things are in Geb, yes

but you don't need to be evil necessarily

[clever cobalt]

Oh hell yeah. When does this come out?

[rustic cape]

"The benefits are good okay"

[clever cobalt]

Always down for some Lastwall stuff

Also re: Blood Lords ||you ultimately prevent an even greater Evil from winning, if that matters||

[limber comet]

Yeah it's very shades of grey

[warped orbit]

also partially through Blood Lords, you do become Blood Lords yourself

[rustic cape]

"Health, dental, and optical, an excellent pension plan, none of this 'tier' nonsense you get in Abaslom"

[rustic cape]

Makes sense

[limber comet]

You have the opportunity to make things better...or worse

[sinful gyro]

That reminds me, I got the whole blood Lords AP and Foundry module in that humble bundle

[limber comet]

Blood Lords is cool

[sinful gyro]

I might run it one day

[clever cobalt]

Nice

[sinful gyro]

I do love spooky undead stuff

[limber comet]

SHADES OF BLOOD COVER

POG

[clever cobalt]

You got the link to the store page?

Or only this

[limber comet]

Spire elf

[warped orbit]

the weird part in Blood Lords is mostly that through the theming you might think it would be the perfect opportunity to play stuff like Undead Sorc, and such
but since you still end up fighting a lot of other undead, it means a lot of negative damage stuff won't work well

[eager mountain]

https://paizo.com/products/btq0740n?Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-213-Thirst-for-Blood

[warped orbit]

but that also goes vice versa

[eager mountain]

@clever cobalt

[rustic cape]

Oh, I mostly built my unarmed kholo thaum in pathbuilder ... but I have no idea what to actually select for the thaum options >_>

[clever cobalt]

Nice

[warped orbit]

if you get negative healing, and there is even an option to get it on anyone after book 1 I think, a lot of undead stuff like ghosts can't harm you at all

[eager mountain]

shades of blood is about vampires obviously

[clever cobalt]

Is Talmandor's Bounty the Avistani Colony in Arcadia?

[limber comet]

No

It's in the ocean lol

[clever cobalt]

Wait

[limber comet]

Somewhere among Shattered Azlant

[clever cobalt]

Yeah fair

It's an Andoran Colony

In ths Shattered remains of Azlant, yeah

[eager mountain]

shattered azlant

yeah

[clever cobalt]

Yeah thst

[eager mountain]

IIRC its off the cosast of cvvarrisia

I THINK

[clever cobalt]

Honestly I'm eager to learn about this stuff

[limber comet]

I don't think that's right

[eager mountain]

iim probably wrong

[limber comet]

I'm pretty sure that's just an archipelago

[clever cobalt]

Yeah I'm pretty sure it's an Archipeligo near Arcadja (but not in Arcadia)

But I could be wrong

[eager mountain]

those little islands off the side of arcadia

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[turbid dagger]

Dragons Demand is more than halfway funded 😌

[surreal basin]

Oh I’m really curious how that new AP is gonna go

[limber comet]

Shades of Blood?

[surreal basin]

Seldeg plays a role in bloodlords and we really loved him

No the seldeg anthology

[limber comet]

Ohhh

[clever cobalt]

Whose Seldeg?

[surreal basin]

One of the grave knights that was charged with keeping Arazni in Geb

Also the only one she spared when she escaped

[clever cobalt]

Ah

Neat

[limber comet]

Imagine Arazni sparing you and you immediately go and fuck with Tar-Baphon's stuff

Absolute buffoon

[sinful gyro]

I wonder if they'll explore the crimson oath

[clever cobalt]

Hopefully

Since it's basically an open secret that the patron is Arazni

I do like the KoL LO book

[wooden orbit]

When’s the orc AP coming out?

[limber comet]

October

[wooden orbit]

[surreal basin]

Alright fellas

I need to crowdsource ideas for

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=598

This feat

Rn I have:
Ooze form if I would be critically hit
4th rank 2 action heal if I would hit 0 hp

[plucky snow]

Does the reaction interrupt the trigger? Or does the triggering effect resolve first

[surreal basin]

Reactions interrupt usually

[plucky snow]

The heal is good

Invisibility might be useful

[surreal basin]

I’m gonna play around with it

[plucky snow]

...how does it work with spell immunity

[surreal basin]

So it’s not really better than just casting dispel magic but yes you would announce the spell you’re immune to as part of the reaction

Which would be immensely funny if nothing else

[plucky snow]

Can you cast dispel magic as a reaction?

[surreal basin]

With this yes

This turns any less than 10 minute cast time 4th level or lower spell into a reaction

[plucky snow]

I think that makes it quite a lot better than dispel magic

[surreal basin]

Well

I meant for this specific usage lol

For this usage dispel and spell immunity function identically

[plucky snow]

oh, I see

[surreal basin]

Spell immunity is generally better only if you KNOW you’re running into a specific spell

[plucky snow]

Spell immunity will also apply against repeated casts of the spell, though

[surreal basin]

Yes

But how often have you had the same spell cast on you multiple times a combat, know

*yknow

[echo briar]

Maximize the casting time requirement. Use read omens

Force the gm to tell you how to win a boss battle

[surreal basin]

Lmao

Nah we got a sorcerer who usually preps that in his arcane evolution

That’d be funny tho

[echo briar]

Peaceful bubble is like mega darkness

Nothing can see in or out

Also, have your trigger be whenever you say a pass word

[limber comet]

Waiting impatiently for Triumph of the Tusk

[clever cobalt]

soon

[limber comet]

Not soon enough

[frank crystal]

Hmm, so I’m looking at a sterling dynamo and it seems like the best use is just to use it as a pretty good single handed weapon with some unique support feats

So if I wanna make a character for that, I’m kinda thinking maybe thaum?

Would it count for thaum?

[ocean cobalt]

how would it not

[surreal basin]

You could absolutely do that

And it would not be a bad idea to do the free hand version to keep your hands full of stuff

[frank crystal]

I wasn’t sure if it counted as an unarmed attack or not

Which I’m pretty sure doesn’t work for Thaum

[ocean cobalt]

The power of your implement can also be turned to the more common task of combat, its power adding to and amplifying the effects of runes and other magical empowerments. When you Strike, you can trace mystic patterns with an implement you're holding to empower the Strike, causing it to deal 2 additional damage per weapon damage die. Channeling the power requires full use of your hands. You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit.

this is implement's empowerment if that's what you were wondering abt. it just says "the strike" so that should include unarmed attacks yeah

"weapon damage die" is just, the thing it's called

[rustic cape]

So my animist has Witch dedication

With baba yaga as a patron

And since baba yaga specifically lets your familiar be an inanimate object, I have determined that her familiar is a tattoo of a cat

That walks around my animist's skin

If she needs to teach it a new spell she has to tattoo the spell on and wait for the cat to eat it

[frank crystal]

Nice

Y’all think the dynamo could count as a weapon for the weapon implement?

[ocean cobalt]

well,

answer 1 - by rules definition no, unarmed attacks aren't weapons

answer 2 - the distinction between weapons and unarmed attacks is pretty arbitrary and by and large the corner-cases where the distinctions matter in the rules are bad ones, including this one. if i was gming i'd let it ride

answer 3 - it doesn't matter whether or not it's a weapon because the reaction requires you to be holding it not wearing it

[frank crystal]

Ah well

It was worth asking

[ocean cobalt]

i think it's worth bringing up to your gm if it's something you want to do

[frank crystal]

Ah I don’t have an upcoming game or anything

[ocean cobalt]

because like answers 1 and 3 there are pretty blatant pedantry

[frank crystal]

This was making a character for its own sake

[ocean cobalt]

nods

[surreal basin]

A GM once let me use my sterling dynamo as my innovation for inventor

[limber comet]

I think Extinction Curse should've taken place entirely inside of a carnival

[echo briar]

I think extinction curse would have been a better adventure if it never tried to be a carnival AP at all

It’s a really good adventure, but it sets up expectations and then does a full 180

[solar storm]

Extinction Curse is lowkey why Paizo started making more 3 parters I think

It feels like 2 three parters in 1

[echo briar]

I actually think one of the devs said agents of edgewatch is what did it.

They had to put like 2 books worth of filler to make it to to 20

[solar storm]

Oh that would also make sense

[echo briar]

are any of the upcoming APs 1-20?

I do think that they have their place, just not for every adventure. But they should still make some

[warped orbit]

Edgewatch is what I assumed yeah

Since its a fairly low level premise, but they had to really stretch it upwards

[solar storm]

Glancing at it no

Last 1-20 was Blood Lords and they haven’t announced another one

[rustic cape]

My GM played it, and her comment is that it’s two really good but completely unrelated APs in a trenchcoat

[clever cobalt]

How so?

[echo briar]

You have circus AP, and you have Dino AP. They are the same AP for some reason

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[silver geyser]

God, now I want to talk about the 1e Curses.

You know what was a curse that was often taken by the people who didn't want a real downside?

Legalistic: The shackles of Hell impose savage consequences should you violate a covenant, but also imbue you with remarkable guile. Whenever you break your word (either purposefully or unintentionally), you become sickened for 24 hours or until you meet your obligation, whichever comes first. However, once per day, you can make a vow to yourself that grants a +4 morale bonus on any one roll you make while trying to fulfill a promise made to another individual. At 5th level, you gain a +3 competence bonus on Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks while talking to an individual one-on-one. At 10th level, you can make a new saving throw each minute to resist mind-affecting effects as your subconscious searches for loopholes. At 15th level, any creature that violates its freely given word to you takes a penalty to AC, to spell resistance, and on saving throws against your attacks and abilities equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1) for 24 hours.

[trail nova]

I love legalistic. Perfect for your devil/fey types

Of course, the downside isn’t strong.

… oh, it’s just “break your word”, not speak falsehoods

[silver geyser]

Yep.

The downside almost doesn't exist depending on how you play.

And then there's my own personal favorite.

Powerless Prophecy: You are forewarned of danger but can’t act to prevent it. You gain uncanny dodge, as the rogue class feature. However, you can’t take any actions in a surprise round, including free actions, except for flash of insight (see Revelations below). In the absence of a surprise round, you are staggered for the entire first round of combat. At 5th level, you gain a +4 insight bonus on initiative checks. At 10th level, you gain improved uncanny dodge as the rogue ability, using your oracle level as your rogue level. At 15th level, you gain a +4 insight bonus on all your saving throws and to your AC during surprise rounds and when you are otherwise unaware of an attack.

Turns out when you're a full-caster, being staggered for the first round is not an actual problem.

[warped orbit]

I mostly know about that one because Daeran has it in the Wrath CRPG

[silver geyser]

Ye. It's a strong one.

Then there's the one I take specifically for Oracle's Burden.

Wrecker: The destructive power of the Abyss and its teeming hordes of demons seeps from your very pores and into your belongings and surroundings. Held objects gain the broken condition when you use or equip them but regain their actual condition if employed by anyone else. If a held item is restored to unbroken condition, it becomes broken again the following round. Disable Device becomes a class skill for you and you can make Disable Device checks to destroy nonmagical traps as a move action without the need to use tools or take any action beyond simply touching it. At 5th level, whenever you attempt to damage an object with a melee attack, reduce its hardness by an amount equal to your oracle level before determining the damage you deal with that attack. At 10th level, any attacks you make against objects and constructs automatically bypass any damage reduction they may possess except epic. At 15th level, whenever you are dealt damage by an attack with a manufactured weapon, you can require the weapon’s wielder to make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your oracle level + your Charisma modifier) to avoid having the weapon collapse into dust immediately after striking you (magical weapons receive an additional saving throw against this effect).

[rustic cape]

That explains why I never noticed his curse <_<

[silver geyser]

It is amazing to be able to look at a person and go "Hey, all your gear is Broken."

Penalties to hit and damage, a huge penalty to AC.

[solar tendon]

i dont think the 'premise rug pull' thing is unique to extinction curse nor has it been fixed by shorter aps

[clever cobalt]

Yeah a lot of APs go weird places

Some.more than others but still

[solar tendon]

its just something paizo like doing for some reason, and tbh is also just weirdly common in the dnd space in general

[crystal walrus]

Is their a tier list for APs anywhere

[solar tendon]

theres a weird aversion to just being candid about what an adventure is actually going to be about

[solar storm]

I think some of it is also that a lot of the writers change per part and there’s some overlap in the writing of each part

The monthly release schedule is fairly demanding I think

[rustic cape]

I’d love it if Paizo started getting one writer or team of writers do an AP and just gave them longer to work on it

I guess that would be more time from start of work to release

[solar storm]

Yeah I think it’d mean a much slower release pace

Idk how much of one

[rustic cape]

I think they could maintain the same release pace but they’d have to invest into transitioning to it and treating APs as bigger in-house secrets

I would like it but

Maybe not a great business decision

[unborn rain]

if it's the same amount of people writing the same amount of content, the time to bulk produce the APs would theoretically be the same

[crystal walrus]

I'd be interested in seeing some third party APs

[silver geyser]

AP's are a lot of hard work.

[crystal walrus]

do you think that having two on the trot and alternating them A/B would work better?

[solar storm]

Tbh I don’t know the production system well enough to know if that would be better

It seems like it might be more cohesive

[surreal basin]

The 1-20 AP thing really sucks cause I feel like they got their act together

Bloodlords felt really cohesive

IMO some premises just

Can’t go 1-20 really

Try as you might idk if there’s 20 levels of carnival related shenanigans out there

Also for what it’s worth

Extinction curse transitions from the focus on the carnival like

Midway through book 2?

And it becomes more of a thematic backdrop

[rustic cape]

I think there could be but you would have to go some weird, silly places with it

Become the cosmic carnival

Interplanar shenanigans

Protect the universal principle of clowning from those who would see it destroyed

Alternately redeem the universal clown principle, which has been corrupted

I dunno some weird shit

Also: skeptic's defense is hilarious

[echo briar]

You must kill the Karni Val to free the carnival from its curse

[rustic cape]

Get in a feud with a vampire circus

[echo briar]

You must perform in front of asmodeus

[clever cobalt]

So, how is Curtain Call? Is it good?

[echo briar]

He doesn’t try to harm you, he’s an earnest patron of the carnival, but the other arch devils hate clowns

[solar storm]

Isn’t it not out yet?

[limber comet]

It is out

The last part came out this month

[clever cobalt]

Yeah it's been out a while

[limber comet]

Triumph of the Tusk next month!!!

[rustic cape]

Yes this is good

Also Asmodeus knows all of the other archdevils hate clowns and has deliberately brought them to fuck with them and expects your carnival to do its part by foiling their schemes for his amusement

[limber comet]

Morally grey

[rustic cape]

I mean if they can't even clown on some devilish schemes, are they really clowns?

[rustic cape]

If anything Asmodeus has been a secret mysterious patron of your circus the whole time

[solar storm]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1230
How does the last line of this work?

This effect only reduces the additional damage from a critical hit; it can't reduce the damage below the amount it would deal on a normal hit.

Since firearms don't have a well defined normal hit damage on a crit

[rustic cape]

They're not just doubled like other weapons?

[solar storm]

They pretty uniformly have Fatal so a Musket for example does 1d6 normally but 2d10 instead on a crit

lmfao

first shot of the combat

we killed the gang leader

[warped orbit]

it just can't reduce damage below the undoubled damage of the attack IMO

which is also how immunity to crits works

which for example if you shoot an ooze with a gun, you still get Fatal or Deadly

it just won't double

[solar storm]

Ah so its still the 2d10 just not the 2d10*2?

[warped orbit]

AIUI yeah

[solar storm]

That seems reasonable, the wording is a little strange but that's just Fatal making it seem confusing

[warped orbit]

When a creature immune to critical hits is critically hit by a Strike or other attack that deals damage, it takes normal damage instead of double damage. This does not make it immune to any other critical success effects of the actions, such as a critical specialization effect or the extra damage of the deadly trait. However, in some cases the GM might determine the added effects don’t apply.

[turbid dagger]

It'd be (1d10*2)+1d10, I believe, but yeah

The extra die from fatal is not doubled

[warped orbit]

this is with Striking already

[turbid dagger]

Oh right

[sharp bluff]

I’m struggling when it comes to balancing a homebrew species I’ve been trying to make

It’s primarily in the feats department where I’m having the most problems

[solar storm]

Any particular ones?

[plucky snow]

Struggling to come up with something interesting, but balanced?

Or something else?

[sharp bluff]

Good but balanced

[plucky snow]

I would be happy to toss some ideas if that would help

though I have not actually played any pathfinder

[sharp bluff]

I’m trying to remake Shardminds, and have them fit that tanky caster archetype they fit into

*theoretically fit into

[plucky snow]

What is a Shardmind?

[sharp bluff]

Race stuck in DnD 4e, sentient crystal people from the astral plane

As alien as you can get

[plucky snow]

ic

[sharp bluff]

I’m making them rare, naturally

[plucky snow]

Any particular connection to the aeon wyrd familiar?

[sharp bluff]

Possibly, but for the lore I wrote, they were an experiment by an elder god that was slain

Think of them as some weird form of proto-life that exists in space hell world

Not explicitly better than any other life form, just different

[plucky snow]

I'll toss out some abilities
-stealth bonus in rocky terrain
-gain a free aeon stone
-gain some kind of resistance to disease
-Heal by attuning to local leylines (?) or equivalent

[sharp bluff]

Perfect

[plucky snow]

I should ask: what do you have so far?

[sharp bluff]

I have a name, average height, size class, general backstory, and two template BBEGs

Feats and base stats are the only things I was struggling with

Visual design is humanoid, with some being more abstract (the minority)

Anathema are typically solitary, with very few observed enclaves existing. Think of small townships

[plucky snow]

You could swipe Consult the Stars out of the Lizardfolk ancestry

[sharp bluff]

I could

[plucky snow]

The dispersed body of their slain god still paints the night sky, or something

[sharp bluff]

YES

the one BBEG I have, Galil, has the goal of slaying the pantheon as penance for killing his creator

Definitely a late game threat

[plucky snow]

There are actually a few star-based feats in the lizardfolk ancestry that could map

[sharp bluff]

I gotta skim over them again

I was primarily taking from the other constructs

Also Kashrishi

[plucky snow]

Are they crystalline like a swarm of crystals floating near each other, or like a single crystal walking around?

Attribute boost: Constitution + either Intelligence or Charisma?

[sharp bluff]

Single mass that’s made up of smaller crystals

I was definitely thinking of doing int/charisma + con

[plucky snow]

Lots of ancestries have either low-light vision or other senses; what about giving shardminds tremorsense?

Or whatever the Pathfinder term is

With some feats to improve it

[sharp bluff]

Tremorsense, and then dark vision with a feat

Actually fuck that

[plucky snow]

Yeah I was gonna say, everybody has darkvision

[sharp bluff]

I’m toying with the idea of true sight being capstone feat

[plucky snow]

I am suggesting taking the angle of being attuned to the earth/local mana flows and using that as a kind of vision

[sharp bluff]

They’re psionic creatures, so Tremorsense could work

[rustic cape]

What's their penalty?

[sharp bluff]

Dex

Actually, make their penalty charisma

Boost con and int/wis

[rustic cape]

If this is PF2e they get two set boosts and one free boost

Or at least that’s the convention

[echo briar]

Whenever they fall to 0 hp, they can put their conciseness into a singular gem, granting bonuses against dying.

Like they become hidden amongst the other gems, or their body can be carried away and revived easier

[rustic cape]

You could have an ancestry feat chain that leads into having an Aeon Wyrd specifically

[ocean cobalt]

the thing shardmind did in 4e was explode into a big cloud of crystals and then reform right

so maybe that as a feat chain

and also hating aberrations i think

also telepathy

[solar thorn]

oh no

[clever cobalt]

Lol

[solar storm]

oh no

[surreal basin]

And that was a swashbuckler

[solar thorn]

Fireball does wonders

[solar storm]

20' radius problem solver

[surreal basin]

Oh no wait I thought those were attacks

Oh noooooo

Ooooohhh noooooooooooo

[silver geyser]

Burn

[solar thorn]

yeah the enemy party got its total headcount halved
Honestly, I'm glad, Abomination vaults does not have enough chaff fights for mages to feel good

[solar storm]

Yeah lots of fights in tight spaces vs 1-2 nasty fellas

[surreal basin]

Not a ton of chaff fights in APs in general imo

[clever cobalt]

Also is it bad that I'm doing like

140 damage a turn

As a level 7 dual class fighter/barbarian

I feel like I need to change my class because I'm breaking every encounter

[solar storm]

Dual Class Fighter+Martial is basically the most fucked up DPR you can do in PF2

[solar thorn]

I get that chaff fights are hard to run pen and paper, but man they're fun on foundry

[clever cobalt]

If it matters it's via a Dual Slice Falcata with Giant Barbarian

[solar storm]

The GM said "fuck it break shit" when they did dual classing

[clever cobalt]

Which uh

Yeah that'll do it i suppose

[ocean cobalt]

pmao

lmao

[solar storm]

They can reap the whirlwind IMO you're all good

[clever cobalt]

Me when I annihilate the boss in one turn

Fair

NGL its pretty fun but

It's powerdul

[surreal basin]

How many players?

[clever cobalt]

4

[surreal basin]

Wow 4 players with dual class????

[clever cobalt]

Me, a Champion/Ranger, a Cleric/Druid, and a Witch/Psychic

[surreal basin]

Yeah your GM asked for whatever they get

With 4 dual classed players

[thorny berry]

though yeah of those combos yours is absolutely going to be the strongest

[surreal basin]

Well, at DPR but yes

[thorny berry]

the thing with dual class is that it massively raises the difference that optimizing makes

and optimizing under dual class usually means going martial/martial

[surreal basin]

That’s fair

[thorny berry]

just because it's the only way to basically get the benefits of both classes on the same actions

i.e. you can make an attack with fighter proficiency and barb damage and your cleric druid can, like, cast one class's spells on one turn and the other class's spells some other turn

(yes I know one action spells exist don't @ me)

[solar storm]

No you're right especially in combat double martial action compression is just super super good

Outside of initiative I think having 1 billion spell slots for utility magic kinda puts casters more ahead but that's just not combat

[clever cobalt]

Yeah that tracks

[thorny berry]

the biggest corner case is like

magus/caster suddenly getting to burn top-level slots every attack instead of as a sometimes treat

or alchemist generally

[turbid dagger]

I knew just from that screenshot that this was abomvaults lmaooooo
I know the exact room

[surreal basin]

crowdsourcing my encounters: level 5 party in a russian equivalent area that's currently overflowing with occult/eldritch energy (but not every encounter be about that) gimme some random encounters chat

[sinful gyro]

Big old bear

Undead moose

[surreal basin]

[true delta]

Dead people in search of their fingers (stolen by Baba Yaga).

[frank crystal]

Hmm, how’s free hand magus?

[rustic cape]

Laughing Shadow?

[frank crystal]

Yah laughing shadow free hand

[rustic cape]

Getting Mirror Image as a studious spell is rad

It's good and having a free hand available to do stuff is great

[frank crystal]

Oh yah I know laughing shadow is good, I’m just asking if there’s any good reason to go free hand instead of like a shield

[rustic cape]

Significantly increased damage

[frank crystal]

How?

[rustic cape]

While in Arcane Cascade stance, you gain a +5-foot status bonus to your Speeds, or a +10-foot bonus if you're unarmored. If you have a free hand while in the stance and are attacking a flat-footed creature, you increase the extra damage to 3, to 5 if you have weapon specialization, or to 7 if you have greater weapon specialization. You must have your other hand completely free; the extra damage doesn't apply if you have a free-hand weapon or other item in that hand, even if you would normally be able to use the hand for other things.

This is the study's primary deal

That's up from 1, 2, and 3

Flat damage bonuses are nothing to sneeze at

Especially on magus, since it can be pretty swingy

[frank crystal]

Ohh shit I didn’t even know that was a thing

[rustic cape]

Yeah that's the entire point :D

[frank crystal]

Yah I didn’t realize laughing shadow already has mechanics to want you to go free hand

[rustic cape]

Laughing Shadow is the most glass-cannon-y of the studies

It's fast and it can do extra damage but all it has for defense is spells

[frank crystal]

This is gonna be a strength character so it’s probably not worth going unarmored but man I’m tempted now for that extra speed…

[wary yoke]

I mean Magus still has Warp Step

[solar tendon]

honestly not convinced by the unarmoured speed for laughing shadow

unless youre a dragonkin I guess xP

[frank crystal]

Yah… it’s probably just worth it to go with medium armor

[frank crystal]

This character is gonna be a versatile heritage nephilim

[wary yoke]

When I was talking about converting forward a character from PF1E to something thematically similar for PF2E, someone mentioned that War of Immortals has an inquisitor-inspired Ranger subclass coming out, can I find any more info on that?

[rustic cape]

Vindicator

There’s not a lot of info on it, WoI hits at the end of October

It is, however, specifically the new inquisitor

[warped orbit]

we know they get some kind of marking focus spell

and it's a special Edge

[wary yoke]

Hmm. I looked over the announcement on the Paizo blog and it doesn't look like it would do much for the character

[clever cobalt]

I hope to get my hands on WoI as soon as possible

Since I'm a subscriber

[wary yoke]

I don't care about the holy weapon (he already uses something else, an advanced weapon), I don't care about sanctification because the philosophy does not allow it, and domain spells... Well, I would need to track down what he would have access to

But I'll have to look at what it does. I do like how the ranger works, and it might be worth it to switch to an actual divine character.

[rustic cape]

Flurry Ranger is crazy

[wary yoke]

So, how do class archetypes work? Is it like a normal 2E archetype, except it also changes core features?

[warped orbit]

yeah basically

[surreal basin]

yeah

and can only be taken by the specific class

like, spellshot is both a normal archetype + the dedication counts as your way and gives you all of those features

[wary yoke]

My other question about class archetypes, the campaign I'm likely playing the character in is using free archetype. Would I still be able to take another archetype?

[warped orbit]

strictly speaking, no
until you take at least two more feats into that archetype

but the FA rules also say that in cases like that, you might want to waive that requirement a bit

[wary yoke]

I'll have to ask my GM

Though we're beginning at 6th level, so it shouldn't be a problem for anyone except me, lol

[turbid dagger]

Aside from what's mentioned, you also need to 'take' it at level 1
Like, you must take the feat at 2, but your class features are modified from the get go

As part of character creation

[wary yoke]

Ah

[turbid dagger]

How I like to think about it is that they're subclasses that require a bunch of special bespoke feats just for them
(At least, thats the hope, some class archetypes don't have a lot of feats)
So instead of having a bunch of feats with prereq:the subclass in question
They are stored in an archetype

[wary yoke]

Ah, interesting. It sounds like I should still be able to fit my other archetype in there.

I had been planning on going Medic, which doesn't help with the whole handedness issue, but makes the character less MAD, so that's nice

[frank crystal]

Hmm, what do y’all think is the best one handed sword for a free hand build?

[turbid dagger]

Depends, your going Laughing Shadow right?

[frank crystal]

Yup

[turbid dagger]

Dex or Str?

[frank crystal]

Str

[warped orbit]

specifically sword?

[fossil temple]

https://youtu.be/BU_u6epLVAw If you wanted to make a character like this 'life mage' would it mostly be a heavy focus on illusion spells?

[rustic cape]

Given magus I think you just want the largest damage die you can find

[frank crystal]

Ideally yah

[clever cobalt]

Hmm

how do you think a Rogue/Fighter would be as a dual class?

[fossil temple]

Very solid

[clever cobalt]

or is there a better option

mhm

[warped orbit]

Asp Coil if you want reach
Falcata if you can swing the advanced proficiency somehow
longsword actually works for this I think?

since you'd have a free hand anyway, and probably won't 2h

[clever cobalt]

maybe a Fighter/Thaum

[frank crystal]

Yah I’m not going bastard sword

I think it would actually reduce my damage

Because of the way arcane cascade works with laughing shadow

[surreal basin]

Clearly a sawtooth Sabre because of how all of the builds I make are optimal

[frank crystal]

Hmm, you think it would be better to go with a sweep weapon or a trip weapon?

Because it is free hand so I’d only be using trip for the bonus

[warped orbit]

Sweep won't do much for you as a Magus, unless you use Spell Swipe

[frank crystal]

Spell swipe is a pretty fun feat

Hmm, are there any spells which would be partially worth going for expansive spell strike for?

[warped orbit]

Expansive is mostly just useful for AoE, and it's still niche for that

[surreal basin]

IMO it’s worth grabbing just because there’s not a ton of spell attacks out there so for varieties sake I do

And spell attack is bare minimum good action compression

[warped orbit]

the thing with Expansive is that unlike with spell attacks, they still make the save separately

[surreal basin]

Yeah informally

Sorry

I meant unfortunately

[warped orbit]

which means, it's in a lot of cases not even really action compression

because you spend two actions to Spellstrike, and then an action to recharge
instead of just Striking and casting the spell

[surreal basin]

…. Fair enough

[frank crystal]

Yah, hmm, are there any spells that like, you make spell attacks but for multiple creatures?

[surreal basin]

If there were it wouldn’t work w spell strike

[warped orbit]

Imaginary Weapon amped

[surreal basin]

Afaik

[frank crystal]

Ah damn

[warped orbit]

it does if you use Spell Swipe

[surreal basin]

True

[frank crystal]

Oh

I’d need to go psychic though

[surreal basin]

Man I wish magus wasn’t locked to arcane

There’s some cool stuff in there

[frank crystal]

Which is a lot of investment for something kinda niche

[surreal basin]

For what it’s worth

Imaginary weapon is absolutely worth it

It’s maybe the best spellstriking cantrip in the game

You don’t have to by any means but it’s very good

If you don’t want to, don’t let the optimization brain bugs force you to

[frank crystal]

Yah it is really strong

I forget, your spellcasting modifier doesn’t matter for spell strike right?

[surreal basin]

Nope

[frank crystal]

Only your weapon attack modifier?

[surreal basin]

You use your weapon

[frank crystal]

Ok yah just making sure

Otherwise it’d be pretty MAD

Also I think I will go for a sweep weapon

[warped orbit]

the only thing Int really does for you on Magus is spell DC

[frank crystal]

Because looking at the level 8 feats, there’s nothing else I particularly want from that level

[warped orbit]

and that can easily not even matter much

[frank crystal]

And getting a free +1 whenever I use that feat is pretty nice

Especially since I’m not gonna be sweeping that often

[surreal basin]

For what it’s worth I guess it’s more

Action flexibility

Like, you could stride before doing that, which you couldn’t do just striking and casting a spell

(I’m sure you know I’m just generally working out the merits of expansive)

[warped orbit]

oh yeah

it's not that it has no use case at all

but it is much more niche than it might seem at first IMO

[frank crystal]

Also I’m not sure, do you have to arcane cascade the same turn you cast a spell or spell strike?

[surreal basin]

Yes

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

Hmm, are there any one action cantrips?

I kinda wanna have one just to trigger cascade then

[surreal basin]

Yknow I never thought of that but that’s p funny lol

[frank crystal]

I ideally wanna enter arcane cascade as fast as possible

Oh perfect shield

I want that anyway

[wooden orbit]

Well went from it looking like I was gonna be in a 5.5E campaign on Sunday nights to a Battlezoo one using PF2E, to now just a PF2E homebrewed campaign on Golarion, set in Goka.

Detective Agency campaign, lessgooo

[echo briar]

Too good actually. The dual class rules suggest to not combine martial classes because martial stuff combines with itself way more than spells do

[worthy stump]

Shield is the most general one for Magus. Guidance is pretty good for it too if you can pick it up

[clever cobalt]

Nice

[surreal basin]

Yeah fighter rouge would be like

The strongest possible

[clever cobalt]

How so?

And idk Barb Fighter is pretty strong

[rustic cape]

Fighter/[class that does strikes] is very strong

[silver geyser]

Rogue debuffs good. Fighter accuracy great

[rustic cape]

Rogue also has some solid on-crit stuff

Which normally is a bit hail mary

But

Personally Thief Rogue/[Thing that strikes] is my jam

[clever cobalt]

My party may be going to Tian Xia

in a soft reboot

so I'm wondering what dual class I wanns swap to

[rustic cape]

Fighter is also gonna disproportionately benefit anything with big damage boosts

Thaum, Barb, Rogue, arguably Magus

The big boost for fighters is crits, which notably improves other boosts

Fighter's only weakness is it doesn't get a legendary save >_>

[limber comet]

Personal onion

Kinet/elem barb

[rustic cape]

That's cool but it has a disappointingly low amount of synergy

[clever cobalt]

Actually, Elemental Barb can use Kineticist stuff while raging

It isn't as bad as it seems

[ocean cobalt]

monk-kineticist (w stunning fist) or fighter-kineticist can take advantage of the kineticist class dc

[ocean cobalt]

how bad would it be to have a sanctified caster class that uses occult instead of divine

• how much do people care about the lore inconsistency there
• is there anything that like breaks the list?

[surreal basin]

Increased baseline damage output, easier crits, better access to metastrikes

[limber comet]

You can use concentration impulses while raging if you're an elem barb

[ocean cobalt]

that isn't necessarily synergy so much as it is just not getting in the way of each other

[warped orbit]

You can also actually only use them while raging

[ocean cobalt]

if it was like "choose an additional damage type, you can also do that one if you want" thatd be more actively synergistic i think

[upbeat ridge]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/ZZms4In6jF

[rustic cape]

It’s not anti-synergy, but any time you use an offensive impulse is a time you’re not getting your rage damage boost

[wary yoke]

Playing one and… yeah? I wish I could cast more support spells for the party, but I really have just one

[solar storm]

Look every so often you get crit chain lightning off and end a fight in 2 actions so it’s impossible to say if this is good or bad

[silver geyser]

Magus has never been about support spells tbh

[wary yoke]

In 1E there were enough group buffs that also benefitted allies

Or you brought enough buffs to the table you could share some with your allies

Like, when you got Haste, it took the pressure off the primary caster

But now you can't do that until, what, 13th level because haste is single target now?

[rustic cape]

That's true, although it does have a 1 minute duration so you can prebuff

Also Haste is not as essential as it used to be

[silver geyser]

Haste was very much the exception to the 1e Magus buff list.

[rustic cape]

Still very good but

MAP means it's not always going to be the #1 pick

(Honestly as a magus the person who most wants haste in your party is gonna be you)

A lot of other martials often already have action compression of some kind -- magus is distinctive because it is hungry for more actions

[silver geyser]

Honestly, looking at things, the Magus got more buff options in 2e than it really did in 1e

[ocean cobalt]

ive always found the spellstrike charge req kind of weird

[silver geyser]

It's there to not just be higher damage all the time forever

[turbid dagger]

I've been playing a Sparkling Targe Magus recently and yeah its not just all spellstrikes all day
You just have to accept that you are playing Demon Slayer
You have an off turn and an on turn
And your 'off turn' is still usually really good
For example, mine is usually going to be stride, shielding strike, MAP strike (using an orcish knuckle dagger, so agile)
Which is the exact same turn as my temple sword + shield Monk

Stride, strike strike, raise shield

[silver geyser]

Targe is probably my favorite of the hybrid studies tbh

It's just good

[turbid dagger]

It's firmly become my favorite yeah
Its so big brain
'I'm a tank, how do I pull aggro you ask?'
'by being capable of spellstriking'

'i'm a striker, how do I avoid being focused down you ask?'
'by having a tough-ass shield'

[silver geyser]

"You're going to have to pay attention to me or else"

[turbid dagger]

As it turns out having a tinier damage dice and/or less flat damage than the other melee hybrid studies does not matter much when you are Spellstriking

It also has some lovely Studious Spells
Resist Energy + your Shield Block? You are going to be laughing off enemies that deal energy damage
Warding Aggression + Shielding Strike? You can duel with the best of em
Mountain Resilience? See that first one but for everything else

ALMOST makes me sad that that character is going to become an Exemplar come WOI

[frank crystal]

Do focus spells count for getting into arcade cascade?

[turbid dagger]

Yep! It need simply be activated with Cast A Spell, even cantrips work

[ocean cobalt]

spells is the same

you can only recharge spellstrike w magus focus spells tho

[turbid dagger]

For my targeus, I like to lead in round one with the shield cantrip then Cascade, and use my actual shield for followup rounds

[frank crystal]

Radical

[rustic cape]

... is resuscitate actually good?

On the one hand no material component cost and no spell slot cost

[wary yoke]

Question: when stuff has 'you used your last action to..." Is that implicitly required to be during the same turn?

[rustic cape]

On the other hand, 3 actions, and the ally has to have died very recently, plus getting them up while combat is ongoing could go quite badly

[echo briar]

In a FA game? yes. Otherwise no

At that level, I would just use this https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1320

it brings things back from the dead, but its also just useful when used on a living character

Its healing, haste, and concealment

[rustic cape]

Gotcha

[wary yoke]

I mean if you're taking medic there's a good chance you don't have access to spells

[rustic cape]

Assuming someone in your party can do spells or rituals

And yeah, holy shit Shock to the System is good

2 action heal and a whole bunch of buffs

Plus no loss of spell slots

Damn, my animist is gonna have to prepare that

Good "if you didn't use this earlier it's great to use in a boss fight" dynamics

[echo briar]

It’s not really a 2 action heal. It’s more like a 1 action heal

But it’s a 1 action heal on top of haste so it’s still really good

[rustic cape]

Oh I didn't mean 2 action heal as in the spell

I meant a heal and buffs that you do for two actions >_>

[rustic cape]

Built a dual-class character, can go some fairly ridiculous places with these

[warped orbit]

Dual class does do that, yeah

[rustic cape]

Also a weirdly good use case for Feral Child

Since the extra boost helps a lot

[surreal basin]

GK, feral child only gets ONE boost

[rustic cape]

Yeah, I'm saying dual class gets an extra

Which makes feral child more viable

I built a Dromaar Gnome Monk/Rogue medic acrobat student of perfection heavenseeker and it seems kind of hilarious

[surreal basin]

Ohhhhh

[wary yoke]

Every single time I have a rules question this game gets more and more annoying

Apparently Arcane Cascade is same-turn only

I hate the action economy almost as much as the real economy

[surreal basin]

Okay

[wary yoke]

But that's not universal

Because the other action that works like that doesn't have that caveat

[solar storm]

Yeah the same turn thing is dumb

I don’t think it’s very important to the functioning of the magus and most GMs I’ve seen play it the old way

[wary yoke]

I saw some similar abilities and thought some interactions might be weird, so I tried to see if there's a universal rule for how it works

And not only is there not, the version that affects me the most is specifically the worst, most uncharitable possible ruling

[silver geyser]

So, real quick. Which Hybrid study are you?

[wary yoke]

I am playing an Inexorable Iron magus for a Kingmaker game

It was partially because I liked the character concept I had (a magical landsknecht) and partially as a test run for a later character I'm more invested in

As much as I loved magus in 1E, I'm seriously tempted to play the other character as something else, the Vindicator if it doesn't turn out to be a pain

[silver geyser]

So setting aside the issue from last time that the Stag Lord doesn't have Reactive Strike, what do you usually do in fights?

Because a lot of what you're talking about as negatives were as present on 1e Magus, if not more notable

[ocean cobalt]

1e magus did not have cascade

[silver geyser]

Yes, I am aware. But things like "Enemies can hit me with AoO while I'm spell striking" or "I don't have buff spells to use on my allies" were also present back in 1e

[wary yoke]

Uh

No?

1E had Concentration

You cast defensively

Which is not an option PF2E has

[silver geyser]

And what happens when you fail that?

[wary yoke]

And you were an actual caster

[wary yoke]

You don't cast

But it was difficult to fail past a certain point

[silver geyser]

Also, there's a lot to talk about the poor design of casting defensively

[wary yoke]

Maybe, but I'd rather have the failure on my end than because I get stabbed for doing my main job

[silver geyser]

Which, hey, was also a thing in 1e!

[wary yoke]

And, since it was a mechanic, you could also invest in it

Feats, traits, items

[rustic cape]

@silver geyser Did you ever finish that breakdown of reactive strike?

[silver geyser]

I have not! Got sidetracked by game prep.

Finished Level 6 last

The trend is soldiers have it

So far, 6.5% of creatures have it.

[rustic cape]

I imagine that's gonna escalate proportionally with level

It'll be interesting to see

It is kind of an interesting topic because all of the stuff that enhances steps or allows free steps or otherwise escapes reactive strike is only as relevant as reactive strike is

Mobility is a great feat if you're fighting an enemy with reactive strike

Especially given rogues love to flank

But otherwise it does literally nothing

[silver geyser]

Yep! It's fascinating for a number of reasons

There's also plenty of creatures that hit you for hitting them

[rustic cape]

Who may or may not have reach

Or other things that counter your counters

[silver geyser]

Yep!

[ocean cobalt]

there's reactive strike lite too

twisting tail et al

[silver geyser]

Yep, but I started this for looking for things that interact with Manipulate

Because of Magus talk

[ocean cobalt]

sure, but Move is still relevant

(not specifically to magi)

[silver geyser]

Yes, but it's not what I am doing thr project for

[ocean cobalt]

yeah and theres stuff that isnt RS that hits Manipulate too, i'm just using "twisting tail" as a synecdoche for "stuff that does half of what reactive strike does or punishes Mv/Mn/C actions in a different way"

[rustic cape]

One could do a fascinating analysis of enemy reactions that punish more broadly, but it would be a lot of work

I think mourge is essentially just limiting scope

[silver geyser]

There hasn't been any that go for Manipulate yet outside of RS

[rustic cape]

But you're only at level 6 so

That may change

[silver geyser]

Yep!

18 levels to go

[ocean cobalt]

sure but you brought up reactive strike in terms of Step and i'm responding to that

[rustic cape]

Aye, just kinda wandering over on my end

[ocean cobalt]

hey what are some spooky profession names

[silver geyser]

I have a clear winner on RS right now though. The Hydra gets 5 extra reactions for it.

[ocean cobalt]

much better at coming up with like pbta playbook-style class names where the names are usually "thing you resemble" or "metaphor for something that happened to you" and finding "thing you non-figuratively do" is hard

[rustic cape]

Is this in PF's general fantasy tableau?

[ocean cobalt]

"medium" is the closest ive got currently but that was another class and i dont want to have this one be compared against something it emphatically isnt trying to be

[ocean cobalt]

yes

[true delta]

Exhumer. Dog fattener. Oh, and since you've mentioned Pathfinder: The Faceless Butcher, of course.

[warped orbit]

more precisely, it has a number of reactions equal to its heads

if you fuck up and give it more heads, they get even more

[ocean cobalt]

exhumer is on the right track i think

dog fattener might be too weird but honestly i could go for that

butcher has too many close range martial vibes which this isnt

[echo briar]

Channeler, Augur, beckoner, binder

Cerenovus, Boffin, Organ Grinder, Vizier

[ocean cobalt]

augur or beckoner could be cool

organ grinder is of course very good but i feel like itd be more at home being a spooky bard muse or class archetype

[surreal basin]

oh would yall like to see my list of house rules

You do not drop items when you fall unconscious 


Incap only prevents you from critically failing a save


Undead do not need to breathe, even as players. This may also apply to some other ancestries like poppets. This extends to bleed damage

You can add property runes to specific magic items - you can add one less than normal 

You can stride using alternate forms of movement such as flight or climbing

You do not need to know a spell that is on a wand or staff to use the item

Use Magic Item is available to all characters

Only Scrolls require a use magic item roll

Hero points can be used on other players rolls, can be used on rolls that have already had fortune effects applied to them, and one can spend two hero points to reroll an enemies roll as a misfortune effect```

[frank crystal]

I’m not sure how much I like giving undead PC options blanket immunity to bleed damage

[echo briar]

You already don’t need to know a spell on a wand or staff to use it

It just needs to be of your tradition

Also, use magic item does not exist in PF2.

If you’re talking about trick magic item, then why are you singling out scrolls?

The free drawing may make a more consumable focused meta, which isn’t a bad thing. However it does make quick alchemy worse by comparison.

Incap should also apply to normal failures. You don’t want your boss fights to ended by banishment every single time your party fights something extraplaner

[surreal basin]

Trick magic item yes

[surreal basin]

Yeah sorry that part moreso means like

Bleed damage immunity is given on a like

Per ancestry basis

Like yeah sorry you can’t bleed a poppet lol

[frank crystal]

Fair enough

[surreal basin]

These rules are in place with the understanding that they improve our general play

And that people won’t exploit edge cases like banishment

[echo briar]

I’m not sure banishment is an edge case. Incapacitation spells have nasty regular fails

[surreal basin]

But we’ve never had our altered incap rules lead to a fight being instantly over

Literally have played with it for years

It means that sometimes big swings happen because a boss failed a roll against a big spell but

That’s the way of it baby

Bosses are already really unlikely to fail saves

And yeah the drawing rules were 100% meant to encourage consumable use because imo most of them are not worth the cost of drawing + using

[echo briar]

Yea, but it makes the remastered alchemist kinda sad

So much of their kit now is quick alchemy, but now that’s twice as many actions as just buying it and putting it on your belt

[surreal basin]

But it’s free :3

Bulk limit is also extremely important with this rule actually

[echo briar]

I feel like a lot of these rules work for your group, but I’m not sure how universal they are

[surreal basin]

Yeah I would generally agree

We’ve done a lot of different party comps with this for what it’s worth

Also to clarify: the stride thing just means you could like

Use sudden charge with swimming

[silver geyser]

Finally resuming the project after talk earlier! Level 7 gifts us with 96 creatures, with the following possessing Reactive Strike:

Adhukait (Gets a second reaction for it)
Chuul
Dullahan
Elasmosaurus
Greater Barghest
Ogre Boss
Salamander
Tendriculos
Vanth
Young Linnorm (Only with tail)

Total Creatures with Reactive Strike: 67/939. We have moved to 7.1% There's no real pattern to this level now. We only have 629 more creatures to go now!

[echo briar]

Personally, every single caster I have ever made would have a wand of synesthesia with your rules, and probably a few other wands like wall of force and heal

[surreal basin]

sure

you would be free to dot hat

*do that

now if you started carrying like

20 wands of synesthesia

then I'd be like "okay you and i both know you're abusing these house rules, stop it"

and that'd be that

to be clear most of these are not like

changes i would make to the system if i was in charge

just house rules that make my game better

[clever cobalt]

I can't believe i just realized Exemplars have KSBD Title Cards as an actual mechanic

[echo briar]

What domains are best for exemplars (as they stand now)

Family is kinda generically good on every single class, but slightly better on the exemplar because it has good saves

Might has a useful movement tool and damage reduction, but not like insane