Pathfinder

[clever cobalt]

On a similar topic I stick by my opinion that 2e Golarion is better than 1e Golarion

Which isn't to say 1e doesn't have its appeal, but I think it's much more thought out in 2e

And generally just has a higher, more nuanced view of things

[keen raptor]

A lot of 1e was reflavored D&D. 2e branches off to do its own thing a lot more, especially post-remaster

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[light gyro]

more on this monster. ohhhhh maaaaan

[clever cobalt]

I think the OGL stuff was a good excuse to rework a lot of the setting imo

Though I'm also of the opinion that, in the long term, the OGL stuff helped Paizo

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah for sure

[limber comet]

I haven't even played a pf adventure where they'd be present but I miss Remorhazes

[clever cobalt]

Actually, question

Hard to say when we haven't seen the effects of the Godsrain and whatnot on Golarion

but

How would you do an Alkenstar/Mana Wastes/Impossible Lands Mythic game?

[sinful gyro]

Start in the city

Gain mythic powers from weird science

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[sinful gyro]

Head out into the wastes, fight the biggest scariest stuff there

Come back to conquor / save / whatever the city

[clever cobalt]

I'm thinking cause my main concept rn is a Fleshwarp Exemplar, who wants to create a safe nation for his people (and other outcasts)

Fleshwarp King Arthur

The Mana Wastes naturally makes a good place for this

[sinful gyro]

For sure

Also with the weird science thing, that can cover fighting other mythic things

Cos the weird science was done to them to

Some dude experiemented on a sand worm

Now it's a mythic sand worm

You could even tie in your fleshwarping to it

[clever cobalt]

Actually there is a conspiracy in Alkenstar that mat fit

Lemme find it

The Exarchate of the Infinite Clock

Seems like it may be a good excuse to include Mythic stuff in the Alkenstar/Mana Wastes

[fossil temple]

So the new name of the Inquisitor is ||Vindicator||

[surreal basin]

Mhm

Why spoiler it

[fossil temple]

Better safe than Sorry

[surreal basin]

I guess so, you probably don’t need to for non-ap books though

[fossil temple]

And I had meet a lot of people in my life thar can be extremely anal about "spoiler" things

[trail nova]

… hmm. I’m having weird musings about how Pazio made 2e in such a way that what were arguably their best designed classes in 1e - the 2/3rds casters - couldn’t exist in a recognizable way.

[surreal basin]

Idk I think you could probably get away with something like it

Probably more by limiting spell slots than spell rank

[novel merlin]

They did just kinda blow most martial out of the water

[surreal basin]

Kinda like a bonded

Bounded?

[trail nova]

That was not a fault of the 2/3rds casters

1e martials should not have been a balance target

[novel merlin]

A lot of the strength was that they could do martial stuff while being able to self-buff a whole bunch

[echo briar]

It hasn’t been errataed is because there has been no APG errata

[surreal basin]

That as well

[warped orbit]

I thought PC2 got some day 1 errata, but I was thinking of something else

[trail nova]

Sorry, thing came up. They had their weaknesses - namely being too feat starved to access everything a martial could, forcing them to relatively simple builds, but yeah, they were stronger. If the stuff too deep into feat chains was actually worthwhile, or if martials had more nice toys that couldn’t be poached, it would be just fine

[turbid dagger]

So thinking about War Of Immortals, going WAY on back to the playtest
For Epithets and other stuff that give your Ikons extra Immanences, are all of those active at the same time or do you choose an Immanence to activate when the divine spark zoops into it

[warped orbit]

All of them for that ikon AIUI

[turbid dagger]

Thats wild lmao

[warped orbit]

each of the epithets IIRC adds to a different ikon

but yeah you could IIRC stack quite a few extra Immanences onto your weapon

[turbid dagger]

Mhm, but feats can give you more Immenences and Transcends too

I hope Exemplar is in more or less a similar shape when it drops, I think I'm cooking with what I've got right now
Reap The Field with a Falchion or Greataxe is pretty 😳

[warped orbit]

in the playtest, throwing had some really strong support

a dual throwing build was pretty good, I built one of those I think

[turbid dagger]

I remember Mated Birds In Paired Flight being a hideously strong Transcendence yeah

[warped orbit]

yeah

[ocean cobalt]

only tangential to this but i remember having the idea for an exemplar who got their powers from getting shot and killed with a magic bullet

Scar of the Survivor, obviously

[ocean cobalt]

i think focus spells could be potentially really good for this, i'm hopeful that that's how the Vindicator does its thing

(there's also them converting them into full casters, like with the bard, but that only really works for bards and maybe the one or two other 2/3 casters who are flavorfully indistinct from full casters anyway)

[trail nova]

Yeah, and even then Bard has some pains around its more sword-included builds. Warrior Bard is better, but it’s still not an amazing fighter.

[ocean cobalt]

yeah that's kinda what i mean, they rightly prioritized "good with magic music" over "pretty good with sword to compensate for not being wizards"

[trail nova]

Yeah, though there were some awesome sword-dancer builds

[ocean cobalt]

(i'm still mad that summoners ended up as casters at all, tbh! that isn't what the fantasy is for me and i don't like casting)

[trail nova]

(That’s the other thing about 2/3rds casters - most were pretty damn versatile in build possibilities, with the exception of like… Magus.)

[turbid dagger]

Maybe its still inside their head
Maybe they got shot for some powerful magic artifact they were carrying and they're trying to find who did it
And it turns out they run a fancy casino in alkenstar...................

[trail nova]

Huh, to me the fantasy is pretty heavily caster focused.

[ocean cobalt]

i'm glad they preserved the most vital essence of the magus, being strange and finicky to build while also being good at exactly two things

[ocean cobalt]

idk for me, like... i'm a fuckin stand user i want to be a normal person doing punches or utility shit while my big guy who has all the actual magic powers does their thing

[trail nova]

To me it’s the guy in a basement with a summoning circle or opening rifts through which armies of the beyond walk.

[ocean cobalt]

the boost and heal spells are cool bc they exist in relation to the eidolon but i don't want random mechanically mandated casting so i'm up to par. much rather have rogue-style extra skills or what have you

[warped orbit]

wasn't PF1 Summoner also a caster?

[ocean cobalt]

see for me summoners feel pretty anti-that because that always feels like either "summon different guys to do discrete tasks" or "summon lots of guys to do tasks", neither of which is "one guy always following you around"

[ocean cobalt]

didn't like it then either and they could've made them a focus caster like they did champ or ranger

[limber comet]

2e Summoner just needs more magic, so it can feel like your eidolon isn't doing all the work

[rustic cape]

I do wonder if the Ikons could use a little more juice at low levels

[turbid dagger]

Personally I'm chill with it
Because like
You get Implement's Empowerment basically as your basic Immenence
Except it can go on a D12
And then the transcends are spicy
Double Slice but d12+2 damage dice yum yummmm

[warped orbit]

my main thought about the playtest was that the weapon transcends just seemed to be the best thing to be doing on your turn mostly

and it became a lot of stacking stuff onto your weapon and then finding ways to quickly swap back to weapon

[ocean cobalt]

i'd actively like to feel a little more like that tbh, as it is it has enough magic for that not to feel like the case anyway

like i'd much rather it get more and better skill actions and One for All-type Aid improvements. if i wanted to play a weapon user or a caster i'd play a weapon user or a caster

misty doesn't use water gun, staryu does

[limber comet]

I feel like making the summoner themself helpless is a Bad idea

[ocean cobalt]

i mean probably. i just wish they were helpful in a way that wasnt just spellcasting(TM) again

[echo briar]

The problem is that summoning is an inherently magical thing

For 90% of people, they want to be the spell caster with a bad ass minion

Also, any ability you give the summoner that’s not spell casting (or striking) is probably best suited for its own class

Like if you can make a character useful with just skill stuff, make that its own class instead of tying it to the summoner for some reason

[limber comet]

The martial class archetype in Summoners+ is really cool

Idk if it's any good

But the idea of tag teaming with your eidolon is cool

[ocean cobalt]

somehow i do not think "stand user" or "pokemon trainer" is something very few summoner players are interested in

also to be clear it isnt that i object to magic on summoner writ large (i'm aware it's magical! lmao) it's specifically the Spellcasting class feature, with spell slots and a spell repertoire

more eidolon's wrath/evolution surge less electric arc basically

[echo briar]

Compared to spell casters, yea it’s probably pretty niche. Jojo is not so popular to eclipse the rest of fantasy, and the summoner is a terrible Pokémon trainer

[ocean cobalt]

you do actually need something like the eidolon for that. the classes have an outsize focus on using skills (swashbuckler, investigator, thaumaturge sorta, rogue) all have class features that directly relate to combat, and in 3/4 of those cases directly use or feed into their skills (4/4, if you count investigator's RK bonuses and/or Athletic Strategist)

making the summoner "the aid class" both gives the summoner something beyond The Intentionally Generic Class Feature That Over Half Of All The Classes Get and gives "the aid class" something to do for themselves on their turn

[ocean cobalt]

also like, yes, compared to spellcasters its niche but crucially you can play other spellcasters

you can play other spellcasters that summon things, even

[echo briar]

TBH, that seems like a very boring class.

Your just playing the eidolon with a very cool familiar at that point

And to make it not boring goes back to my “it should be its own class at that point” idea

[ocean cobalt]

sure, if it isn't your thing you aren't going to be interested in it

[echo briar]

I don’t think most people would be interested. If you are that’s great, but as I said a very niche class at that point

[ocean cobalt]

feel like that's actively a good thing at that point, narrow niches are good

[echo briar]

I don’t remember any calls to get rid of spell casting during the playtest

[ocean cobalt]

i have zero interest in playing a psychic but god knows that class does what it's intending to well

[limber comet]

I feel like the draw of Summoner is playing both a martial and a caster, just in a different way than magus offers

Could be wrong though

[tough perch]

i think aid would work better as an archetype thing

a class made around helping your allies like that would have to expand on what "aid" means and does

and once you do that i think you're gonna arrive at either the envoy or the commander

or something like those

if you don't expand what "aid" is, then it'd be kinda boring to base a class around

but an archetype would work

throw that into a summoner and you get a cool summoner with a bit more focus on aiding the eidolon

[tough perch]

i'd say that for most classes part of the appeal is mechanical and part is the fantasy. the summoner and the magus both have the mechanical appeal of playing both a martial and a caster, but only the magus has that appeal as part of it's fantasy

the fantasy appeal of the summoner is having a minion or a partner

this is a bit frustrating for me because i love the fantasy of the magus but i didn't dig it's mechanics

summoner is one of my favorites, but it's fantasy doesn't scratch the same itch, even when it's mechanics do

[ocean cobalt]

for me i enjoyed playing two characters at once and the Act Together action sequencing puzzle but i found the spells to be, like... not actively objectionable when i wasn't leveling up but definitely not what i came for

[tough perch]

i wanted a spellblade with action compression to facilitate the use of utility spells, rather than the spellstrike machine

[ocean cobalt]

if nothing else they do give the summoner proper some stuff to do that's more than one action so there's an actual decision point to be made wrt which of your characters you'll devote 2+ actions to for Act Together that round but like, we have cantrips and focuses and class activites and etc etc for that

[tough perch]

someone already mentioned this but it'd probably be productive to check out summoner+

[ocean cobalt]

yeah i'll look into it

[vast burrow]

||>Thinks war is becoming too evil

Decides to kill himself (but like, in a cool cinematic way)
Death brings about even more evil war
Dozens of new gods of war rise to take his mantle||
Thanks Gorum

[light gyro]

|| not my problem any more lmao||

[carmine egret]

Some people really like the Pokemon Trainer in Smash

There's definitely an appeal to "my guy's trick is getting someone else to do things for him"

[rustic cape]

I agree, and I think “has a mechanical niche to appeal to specific types of player” is actually a pretty common part of PF2e’s design paradigm

What’s also true, however is that you can have multiple classes appeal to similar fantasies in ways that lean into an obvious playstyle or not

See: alchemist, inventor, thaumaturge

[echo briar]

No one plays the Pokémon trainer to play the trainer. They play it to play the Pokemon

[rustic cape]

So on the one hand yes, that's exactly the point Genome was making -- some players want to play "summons a big monster that does all the work", that's not an odd fantasy; on the other hand, no, I think in many cases they play the Pokemon trainer to play the ability to switch between several Pokemon on command

[echo briar]

And the summoner can’t do that either

You would just be playing the eidolon at that point, with a kinda cool familiar

[rapid wagon]

question from more experienced people; would a feature like the following be too strong/too weak? What kind of adjustments would make it more comfortable?

I guess to clean that up
A Momentum and Karma system
Momentum is a party wide point pool (up to a max of... 3?)
Karma would be a GM pool of up to also 3?

Momentum can be used to adjust a Critical Failure or a Failure on a Save, Check, or Attack Roll to a Success.

• Momentum is gained via tracking Critical Failures amongst the party. For every 3 Critical Failures, the party would gain 1 Momentum,

Karma can be used by the GM to adjust a Critical Success or Success from the party to a Failure

• Karma is gained via tracking the number of Critical Successes made by the party. For every 3 Critical Successes, the GM would gain 1 Karma.

[rustic cape]

But again, some players want to play "guy who calls up big monster that does all the work," like you and genome just said

The argument seems to me to be "not enough people want this," but some people do want it and hitting niches is kind of what additional classes do at this point. And if the accompanying view is "well, if the Eidolon's the mechanical locus, why not just make them the actual character?" well ... yes, I could see a case for that in some contexts but it would require a pretty significant reshuffling of PF2e's paradigms in a way that kind of extends beyond the scope of a particular class

[echo briar]

The problem with karma is that it puts the GM in a very awkward spot. They know exactly which rolls are most impactful to make into fails, but don’t want to actually be mean

[solar tendon]

I think the eidolon is super important to the vibe of Summoner As Pathfinder Class

cause it's their actually unique thing

I don't think the pf2e eidolons quite hit the make your own guy aspect but it's still pretty cool

[rapid wagon]

Totally valid, would there be a bette way in your mind to maybe encapsulate the idea of giving the GM power to shift a string of successes or throw a spanner into the mix at a narratively opportune moment?

[echo briar]

Do the GM's need that? they can already do that whenever they want

[rapid wagon]

well they can't just change a players outcome at will

i mean i guess they could but if they just did so whenever, thats a fast way to not have a table

[echo briar]

If you the GM want the players to fail, why are they rolling?

[rapid wagon]

As far as intent goes its not so much wanting the players to fail, but the ability to complicate a string of successes

like in the same vein of the players getting repeat failures, having a mechanic to help rebound away from that; it can be a bit non interactive for a GM to have players on a long string of crit successes

[echo briar]

then I feel like it needs to be something outside of dice rolls

Dice rolls mean that you just make the players fail. The grand Inquisitor of Asmodeus coming in for an inspection is a way to complicate things

[rapid wagon]

valid, for a bit of background, i took some inspiration from Fabula UItima and a little bit from Wrath and Glory

So feeling no issue with the player side, but feel like the GM side is largely unnescessary?

[echo briar]

The player side feels kinda unnecessary when hero points exist

I feel like instead of a new mechanic, just hand them out more/buff them

[rapid wagon]

hmm hmm gotcha

as a side note, I'm not the GM in this situation

[solar tendon]

momentum is how a lot of ppl make hero points fwiw

[rapid wagon]

just pitching around ideas

[solar tendon]

cause a reroll that fails feels bad most of the time

[rapid wagon]

think that might be a better/more productive approach to this idea?

[warped orbit]

I have definitely been burned by hero points in the past

[solar tendon]

as in making it a deterministic thing

[rapid wagon]

shifting how hero points work might be a cleaner way

instead of installing a new mechanic

[solar tendon]

and yeah cause momentum is just doing what hero points are supposed to do and that's already a mechanic

[rustic cape]

That's how my GM runs, yeah

[silver geyser]

I would have hero point rerolls be 1-10 being treated as 11-20 instead, like Mutants and Masterminds

[rustic cape]

Also that, yeah

[rapid wagon]

ok so toss out the OG idea, just change it so that a hero point can make a crit fail/fail into a success. Would that happen before a feature that upgrades successes kick in?

[warped orbit]

I'm personally a fan of doing "add 10 if the new roll is lower than 10 with a hero point"
Which is also a pretty big boost, but at least avoids that awful feeling of rerolling into a crit fail

[echo briar]

I prefer to keep HPs as rerolls, but they only get used when the new roll is a success

[rapid wagon]

so like say you crit fail a reflex save, use a hero point to make it a success; is it then a crit success thanks to something like mastery?

[rustic cape]

Yes

Unless you mean it just automatically gets turned over

On a reroll into success, yes

[echo briar]

So for each roll, you can't guaranty a success, but if you fail you get the HP back

[rustic cape]

Either way, PF2e combat can be challenging and swingy enough that upgrading hero points in one way or another is pretty sensible

[clever cobalt]

I like the +10 if below 10 Hero Point rule

[rapid wagon]

the catalyzing situation here is that a fellow player, who is new to the system and ttrpgs, got hit with phantasmal killer, and crit failed both rolls, and ultimately only survived thanks to a hero point; but were very clear that if they just got instant killed on their second session they were just out for good

so i was thinking about how to slow down/address strings of failures

(honestly save or die imo is not very interesting though, I'd personally consider changing the effect from instant death to automatically being set to dying)

[worthy stump]

yeah, save or dies aren't very fun for anyone involved, really

[rustic cape]

Yeah, my GM used to use "keep the point" but uses the +10 now

Both have their virtues

[worthy stump]

and likewise, i've also been using the M&M style rerolls for Hero Points for a while. although some of my friends do use the 'keep the point' version instead

[rustic cape]

My GM also does devil's bargain: you can fail a save willingly to get a hero point

[clever cobalt]

M&M does hero points well ywah

[worthy stump]

mhm, it really does

[rapid wagon]

to kind of collate
A. Hero point allows you to change a crit fail/fail into a success, no reroll involved.
B. Hero point adds a result of 1-10 is treated as 11-20
C. Hero points are rerolls, but are only actually spent when they result in a success.

are what ive seen here as ideas

[worthy stump]

the whole 'trigger a complication to gain a hero point' bit has been something my group has taken from M&M and applied pretty liberally to PF2e as well

[rapid wagon]

and maybe also " the gm doles them out more frequently"

[rustic cape]

For B it's not +10 to any roll

[worthy stump]

any roll below 11 on the dice, yeah

[rustic cape]

It's "a result of 1-10 is treated as 11-20"

[worthy stump]

right, yeah, that's better wording

[rustic cape]

And you can set Foundry up to do that automatically, fyi

[worthy stump]

since it means rolling a 1 isn't one degree lower anymore, and rolling a 10 does count as one degree higher

[rustic cape]

Might need a mod

[worthy stump]

yup, it's from... PF2e Workbench, i believe?

or Toolbelt, one of those two

[rapid wagon]

i suppose what ill do is present these ideas to the GM and see what tehy and the table like

i do like that "choose to fail, get a hero point" idea

[echo briar]

What do you think will happen first, PC2 comes out on Nethys, or Paizo tells us how many spells oracles are supposed to have?

[rapid wagon]

thanks yall for the input!

[clever cobalt]

Consider:
Fleshwarp with the Destined Monarch Mythic Path

They're basically Fleshwarp King Arthur, who wants to establish a haven for the weird and outcast

[ocean cobalt]

the second has already happened so that i guess

[echo briar]

Paizo has said nothing

PF society has said something, but they've been wrong before

[rustic cape]

It’ll happen when the rest of the PC2 errata happens, I suspect

Which … it’s a tossup

[turbid dagger]

God
October needs to arrive quicker
Exemplar rah
Reap The Field rah rah rah

[limber comet]

Agreed

[turbid dagger]

Lemme do the fuckin uh
https://youtu.be/RaMtsAe4kdI

[fast hill]

I think a class taking inspiration from the 5e warlock could fit this niche

Martial caster that isn't magus

[craggy thunder]

FINALLY

MY STARFINDER 1E GROUP IS MEETING AGAIN

AFTER 3 WEEKS

https://tenor.com/view/old-boomer-history-84years-many-years-ago-gif-18534104

[echo briar]

I am a minotaur with stretching reach, and someone casts a 4th level enlarge on me. I have a 20ft reach right?

[warped orbit]

yeah

it's the same if you used a reach weapon

[fossil temple]

Your reach is literally this

You can roleplay like this but instead of huge log you use cargo countainer

[warped orbit]

our Fighter rolled a nat 1 against a save, hero point, rolled another 1
they are now indefinitely blinded

we can probably fix it once we get back and can buy a higher level scroll of Sound Body, but we are out of options rn

they do have Blind Fight fortunately

[tough perch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f57Vat6YZUI

[sudden lark]

I mostly remember that movie for Gary Oldman rapping

[tough perch]

gary oldman is in it????

i have no idea who the voice actors are because i watched it dubbed

[sudden lark]

Yes, he's Ruber.

[limber comet]

TERRIBLE LUCK

What even indefinitely blinds you

[warped orbit]

quite a few blinding effects on a crit fail actually

I think it was some tengu?

[limber comet]

Permanently?????

[worthy stump]

blindness is a 3rd level spell that permanently blinds you on crit fail

there's some fucked up effects like that out there

[limber comet]

Jesus okay

[warped orbit]

it's not too bad all things considered
we can just buy a sufficiently high level scroll of Sound Body once we are back in town

ironically, their rolls while blind have been absolutely godlike so far lmao

they have been critting left and right

[rustic cape]

Real Zatoichi hours up in here

[warped orbit]

just got another crit for the killing blow on the boss

while still blind

[limber comet]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6w6hq?Iconic-Encounter-Boars-of-Belkzen

[turbid dagger]

Aw, Nahoa's a Sweetheart apparently

[limber comet]

Nahoa is great

Also they're making a guest appearance in Godsrain, apparently

https://tenor.com/view/money-wallet-broke-gif-7855913

[clever cobalt]

They're the framing of the book, actually

Their adventures in Avistan

[limber comet]

The godsrain novel

It's mentioned in the blog :p

[clever cobalt]

Ah

Got it, for some reason I thought you meant WoI

My bad

[limber comet]

Nah, no worries

I assume the guest appearance will probably be at the end, when everyone teams up to jump the Spawn

[surreal basin]

https://tenor.com/view/jojo-kick-jjba-gif-13894493

the end of the book

[limber comet]

True and real!

What's the cast again

Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, Barb?

Actually I really am curious to see how Amiri reacts to Gorum dying

[turbid dagger]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1761
.....This would go so crazy with Barrow's Edge Exemplar
Crit with an attack, heal half the strikes damage with the reaction, heal half the strikes damage with Barrow's Edge Transcend
On a d10 Deadly d10 weapon
And the wounding stacking with Barrow's Immanence is also spicy

[frank crystal]

“While this sinister-looking weapon isn’t inherently evil,”

Its only unique attribute is it’s ability to inflict as much pain as possible

[turbid dagger]

You can slash a devil with it just fine though

[silver geyser]

Violence is a inherently neutral act. 😛

[frank crystal]

Yes, but I’d argue generally inflicting undue pain is not

[worthy stump]

is it really undue, though? it's still damage, and you're inflicting the pain to (presumably) debuff your opponent, not to like. torture someone

[frank crystal]

I mean, the description mentions "and the creature struck becomes sickened 1 from the agony."

thats a lot of pain

[limber comet]

You could probably also reflavor it, if your party doesn't really jive with that, or they want it as treasure

[craggy thunder]

yeah vomiting from pain requires an extraordinary amount of pain

I have vomited from pain exactly once

[limber comet]

This is art for the exemplar example builds

We won, chat

Unarmed Exemplar

[frank crystal]

YEEEEEES

BEOWULF BUILD GO

[limber comet]

The final class archetype for WoI

Is witch

[frank crystal]

Oh neat

[limber comet]

You become a patron at 20th level

[novel merlin]

There's a witch in my current fotrp camapign 👀

[limber comet]

The warrior of legend stuff is neat

[novel merlin]

Anything else about it?

[limber comet]

Uh, the warrior of legend basically allows you to become Achilles, giving you a weakness to a specific damage type (or a specific doom later on, like an arrow) and you get some different abilities from it

They were cagey with the specifics

[novel merlin]

Oh I meant the witch stuff

[limber comet]

Uhhhh

Not mechanically much? Your patron is dead or just gone, and you directly get their power

They were similarly cagey

[clever cobalt]

Was there a stream I missed?

[limber comet]

Yeah, just a monthly paizolive

[clever cobalt]

Neat

Did we learn anything else about WoI?

[limber comet]

Like

In what sense

We learned the final class archetype was for Witch, called Seneschal

[solar tendon]

oh

[limber comet]

I tuned in late so I mighta missed stuff

[solar tendon]

are they the patron's senseschal

[limber comet]

Pretty much

[sudden lark]

God that just reminds me of Dragon's Dogma

[clever cobalt]

Like, just new info aside from the Exemplar images or the Witch archetype

[limber comet]

I tuned in late so idk

I'll rewatch when the stream ends

[clever cobalt]

Fair

Wait is it still.going?

[limber comet]

Tl;dr the Seneschal sits on the "throne" left behind by your patron after they died or disappeared

[limber comet]

It's just QnA now

[sudden lark]

I can't unhear Feiya as Stephanie Sheh

[clever cobalt]

Oh, according to the PF2e discord

Exemplars are getting Medium Armor prof

[sudden lark]

I have been corrupted.

[limber comet]

Oh, good

[clever cobalt]

Accoridng to the PF2E discord, have info

[solar tendon]

ooh valkyrie

wow that last one is crazy if only there was a class that could battle and had a curse slash destiny

[clever cobalt]

[limber comet]

Huh

Anyways all the class archetypes have me excited

https://tenor.com/view/its-peak-old-man-shaking-head-gif-3938163323164042530

[novel merlin]

Oh my god this is a perfect thing to give my player

[frank crystal]

What’s that?

[heavy fulcrum]

depending on the context, either the majordomo of a noble or otherwise wealthy household (the person who's in charge of daily operations and various related tasks) or someone appointed by royalty to administer a region

[frank crystal]

I see

[rustic cape]

Anything about animist in the stream?

I love animist so much

[echo briar]

Having a druid is interesting in strength of thousands. I just had to improvise a centipede jahid

[limber comet]

I wonder if Gorum dying was chosen because his death would have a global impact, because he...was pretty much the global war god

[eager mountain]

nahoa is the exemplar

[eager mountain]

ah ok

[eager mountain]

wiat when was this ?

oh shit there was stream 9 hours ago

[rapid wagon]

in pf2 is there a equivalent to leadership from 1e that ive just been missing?

[warped orbit]

not really no

[rapid wagon]

hmm, say, as a paladin i wanted to get a squire of some kind, how would i go about doing that?

and/or how would a gm approach having npc companions?

[warped orbit]

do you want them to be relevant in combat?

[rapid wagon]

hmm for this hypothetical, lets say yes and no

[frank crystal]

Aren’t there hireling rules somewhere?

[rapid wagon]

maybe thats what i need

[worthy stump]

i believe so, yeah

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=67

they're not great ttho

[frank crystal]

Probably for the best

[worthy stump]

mhm, definitely

[frank crystal]

them having a skill your party may not have is an alright niche though

[worthy stump]

yeah

a +4 ain't gonna be relevant for too many levels tho

[frank crystal]

Just kinda sucks they don’t go past level 0 though

[worthy stump]

mhm

[rapid wagon]

hmm

[warped orbit]

In general, companion feats are basically the only way

But I don't think there is one for a generic humanoid companion

[rapid wagon]

Hmm, so for a squire, a hireling is probably my best choice if i just want a porter/helper outside of combat

and there isn't really any options for in combat

like having a hireling who will help put on heavy armor during the day is a simple enough reason i guess

[rustic cape]

Honestly? The best way is to have another player get on board with it and play the squire.

PF2e is pretty avoidant of giving you extra characters for very good reasons

[trail nova]

I really want Beastmaster, but it gives you a dude to order around.

[warped orbit]

it would honestly be fine as an archetype, yeah

put a humanoid dude companion feat line into Marshall

[rustic cape]

You could always refluff an animal companion as a squire, I suppose

[surreal basin]

I doubt we’ll ever get it cause a fully sapient animal companion starts to run into issues lll

*lol

In terms of justifying all the stuff the minion trait entails + them being like a proper person

[rustic cape]

I do think the best thing would be to have another player do it and have the squire be a full person

Which would of course require agreement

[trail nova]

I could see there being some space for "incredibly independent minon, sucks at actually fighting"

[river flicker]

Think I'm gonna have this character here, an Aasimar Exemplar, have a pathologic hatred for devils instead of undead. Specifically because people keep asking why I picked devils and not demons or daemons "because devils are too clever and scheming to be involved in battles" which is... silly, right? I feel like saying all devils are too silver tongued and clever to never fight ignores the part of their lore that talks about military conquest

(Art by SEOKHMET@Twitter)

[rustic cape]

I kinda feel giving players an option for a minion who’s not an animal or a cute little familiar is asking for trouble in several ways

[solar storm]

How so?

[echo briar]

Humans I get. Having your minion be sentient, but unable to act unless you command it is weird. But non animals should work fine

[trail nova]

See, I think you can handle it by just making them have a niche of "independent but weak"

[echo briar]

My opinion for humanoid minions is they get the “strike or stride whenever you don’t command them” baseline

[trail nova]

Yeah, that's sort of what I was thinking as well.

[echo briar]

To do anything more than that you need to command them

[trail nova]

And then I'd probably lean into "decent/good skill bonuses, probably not going to be as capable as an animal companion in a fight."

[echo briar]

You could probably start them out at level 6 as mature

[warped orbit]

starting them out at mature equivalent would make sense to me

[warped orbit]

my main issue with that is that animal companions already kinda lag behind a bit (for obvious reasons), so a minion that's even weaker would kinda struggle I feel

[trail nova]

That's fair.

[echo briar]

Also, for that to be all human companions limits the concept by a lot

Actually, one idea that could make sense (and explains why they only get actions when you command them) is a spell caster that needs to leach off of your mana

You’re their proto Parton

[rustic cape]

People would get weird about having a humanoid companion entirely under your command, and then people would get rightfully upset about them getting weird about it, and both groups of people would be at PFS games, and it would just not be a good scene.

It’s fine for a home game

But including it in the official product line would be incautious

Unrelated: what suggestions would y’all have for a level 6 metal kineticist angling for the party tank role?

[warped orbit]

in terms of impulses?

also pure Metal or dual gate?

[rustic cape]

Honestly I know little enough about kineticist’s specifics that any advice would be helpful

I’m trying to help another player who has not been as effective as a tank as they would have liked but

My own knowledge is limited

[solar storm]

Oh I was thinking like the familiar that’s a rock lol

[warped orbit]

in terms of tanking, Metal is a little tricky
the armor impulse it has shatters when you get crit, though it does give you a shield and free Shield Block

[rustic cape]

Aye, they're using that

Lemme ask if they're committed to just metal

[warped orbit]

Metal doesn't have a lot of tanky or supportive impulses early on unfortunately
there are a few, but they're mostly higher level

hmm, they do get Scrap Barricade at 6
making them with Wood the elements getting a wall impulse the earliest

[rustic cape]

Would diversifying help with that role?

[warped orbit]

yes, probably
branching out into Wood or Earth could give some extra option

Earth can give heavy armor equivalent via Armor in Earth, and also gives early armor spec

Wood has Timber Sentinel, which for damage prevention is probably one of Kinet's strongest impulses

[rustic cape]

Timber Sentinel is c-c-crazy

Instant tree

[warped orbit]

I've used it
it's really good, yeah

but also in general, a lot of the regular tank stuff applies

use a shield for the AC
maneuvers can help make enemies target you over allies

[rustic cape]

… elemental resistance to metal doesn’t apply to metal weapons, right?

That would be insane

[warped orbit]

It doesn't

Only against things with the metal tag

[wooden orbit]

I still ened to actually play a full SoT campaign

[surreal basin]

Which is unfortunately really really rare lol

Although metal elementals are awesome and I’ve included them once or twice in my games already

[warped orbit]

Yeah

[rustic cape]

Seems like metal’s Aura Junction would be a solid defensive tool against warrior enemies

Although I guess status penalty limits it somewhat …

[frank crystal]

Yah but it’s a status penalty with no save attached

They just have it

[rustic cape]

Aye

[surreal basin]

Why is status penalty bad?

[warped orbit]

Because it doesn't stack with other status penalties is I assume the idea

[rustic cape]

Yeah

Kind of a shame there’s no construct master archetype

The player I’m helping went for Inventor dedication for the robot friend

[warped orbit]

Would be nice yeah

[ocean cobalt]

there actually is if you're a sicko and/or if you refluff it

https://2e.aonprd.com/Archetypes.aspx?ID=184

Unlike normal construct companions, yours is a corpse animated by clockwork gears and technological prowess.
thats great man

[rustic cape]

Okay, that’s slick

[solar storm]

I am getting pranked my Nethys today

On a teleport trip from the Shackles to Trollheim

First shot: miss Macini by just enough to need to hike a few hours north for leg 2

Second shot: Macini to Riddleport: scattered into the ocean... on the fucking beach

I get wet and its not even dangerous

Third shot was nominal but also only 450 miles

[rustic cape]

Danke!

[solar storm]

Help help we're contemplating traveling 1000 miles to buy beans

oh my god I'm so squishy

[craggy thunder]

muhfuckin wizards be like

wait how is the kineticist not the tankiest, Con is their KAC?

wait

class hp

I am dumb of ass

[solar storm]

Yeah its also kind of a lie because Cassandra is a Champion with Barbarian Free Archetype

[surreal basin]

oh are you preying for death

[solar storm]

Yeah

[surreal basin]

boggers

[solar storm]

This was just the first session

[surreal basin]

doing taht campaign soon ourselves

trying not to get spoiled :w

[solar storm]

Avoiding real spoilers we had a lot of teleporting at first

We have a:
Champion/Barbarian/Red Mantis
Fighter/Red Mantis Assassin
Wizard/Fan Dancer
Kineticist/Rogue

Champion is doing some complicated stuff with buffs and a giant mantis mount

I don't know all of it but I know the net is a gill hook setup with like 30' reach

Pretty obvious I think what Fighter/RMA does (kills things with swords) and crossing any type of terrain super fast

I did a sort of support/AOE/Debuffs setup

And Fan Dancer just whips in general

I'm not totally sure what the Kineticist/Rogue is doing

Beyond being a mirror image doppleganger who can fly and turn invisible

And turn into ash?

[worthy stump]

wild

[fossil temple]

Btw, I am indecisive of my next character , I played Wizard (legacy) for a good bit, how different Psychic plays?

[solar storm]

Psychic is pretty different from Wizard

Psychic is weird

Very few spells and very strong focus point cantrips

Well, very few meaning 2 per rank not 3-4

[fossil temple]

And how you play it?

[solar storm]

Depends hugely on your Conscious Mind choice

And some on your Unconscious Mind choice

Psychic has like 24 possible subclass combinations

[fossil temple]

Can you exemplify ?

As in
"Of if X and Y, then you would play as Z"

[craggy thunder]

if you play as an oscillating wave conscious mind and an emotional acceptance subconscious mind you are built to be a blaster with a secondary focus on healing with Charisma as your casting stat

[solar storm]

Yeah that’s a good example

[craggy thunder]

your conscious mind switches the primary focus, your unconscious the secondary

[fossil temple]

Thank you

[craggy thunder]

oscillating and acceptance is to my mind the simplest and even then, oscillating is a liiiiittle funky

since you're switching, or oscillating, between fire and cold damage

finally reads the Tian Xia Magus options

https://tenor.com/view/crouching-tiger-hidden-dragon-tree-fencing-action-fight-gif-25555908

[fossil temple]

And mostly focusing on focus cantrips, yes?

[craggy thunder]

I mean that's just Psychic in general, but yes

God Aloof Firmament is so fucking weird but so fucking interesting lmao

[fossil temple]

Magic all the time, make cantrips stronker

Spam PK Starstorm every 2 rounds

[turbid dagger]

I really like Brocade
The more I look at it
If you grapple someone then hit em with Mulberry Leaves they are
Cooked

Have fun escaping twice you little punk

[warped orbit]

Brocade seems like a good setup for maneuvers yeah

[turbid dagger]

Its a very good on-off turn magus
As opposed to a 'spellstrike every turn if you can' magus

[craggy thunder]

Also Desnan Magus sounds fun

[sudden lark]

Is Medium size still 5 ft by 5 ft?

[rustic cape]

Psychic notably plays a lot like a psionic character in 4e

[rustic cape]

Yes

[echo briar]

The hunger seed feat blood must have blood says that you can cast each spell once a day, once a day. It also calls it divine and primal

RaW, if I have a way to cast an innate spell twice as often, can I cast each of the spells twice, or four times because it would be twice a day twice

[turbid dagger]

I've still got Exemplar Brain Rot
Question: Do you think Reap The Field is supposed to do the damage of the triggering strike to both targets, or just do a normal strikes damage to the second target

I ask because a Magus I'm playing is likely to become exemplar with magus ded when WoI drops
And uhm
Better Spellswipe 👀
(Also far riskier spellswipe, but)

[warped orbit]

I think it would only deal the regular Strike damage to the secondary target

[turbid dagger]

My thought is that it specifically delays rolling damage because the second attack roll is for, basically, folding the target into the original strike
Its worded in a very peculiar manner
But thats maybe saner

[warped orbit]

my reasoning is that Reap the Field would only extend the Strike part of the Spellstrike to the second target, not the whole activity

it would however also mean, if you whiff the second Strike, the primary target would still take the spell damage

[turbid dagger]

So you'd say something like Titan's Breaker or another thing that enhances specifically the strike would still work?

[warped orbit]

yeah probably

[rustic cape]

Oh, did a Very Very Extreme Encounter in Strength of Thousands last night

[clever cobalt]

how'd it go?

[rustic cape]

Lotta fun despite three party members getting swallowed by worms

One of them, currently in the form of a shark, got swallowed twice

Which led to a shark biting its way out of a giant worm to kill another giant worm

[fossil temple]

never played that in 4e sadly <:3

[rustic cape]

Gotcha. So the big thing is that 4e psionic characters didn't have encounter powers: they had dailies, and then they had overpowered at-wills which they could throw per-encounter Power Points at to make them even more overpowered.

Psychic is the same thing but in PF2e: overpowered cantrips and the ability to "amp" your cantrips by using focus points, combined with normal daily spellcasting

[fossil temple]

That sounds a little like the Kineticist that I played
In the sense of consistency sending spells

[true delta]

I've pitched Frozen Flame to my newly formed group. But perhaps, I'll offer Strength of Thousands as another option. Btw, this channel/thread is absolutely the reason I'm into Pathfinder now. Y'all are an influence.

[clever cobalt]

Being me.im wondering how you'd do a Kholo in FF

Maybe one of those Cave Hyenas that existed ages ago

[heavy mesa]

jellyfriends!

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/the-flood-spaceship-gif-11735243

jellyfriends incoming

[heavy mesa]

do they have presents?

[eager mountain]

possibly

[fast hill]

decided I want to make a fleshwarp who was a (failed?) attempt at creating the perfect soldier

idk if they would be a fighter or barbarian

ooo Nex are on that fleshwarp legion type beat...

fighter/psychic would be cool

[surreal basin]

my idea was a kholo champion who was the adopted daughter of a lastwall knight

who escaped to the mammoth lands when shit went south

cause its nearby

[fast hill]

technological fleshwarp...

making a space marine in pf2e...

[rustic cape]

Frozen Flame is a really fun adventure, although ABP is good for it, and there is one incident my GM desperately wants everyone to change

||There is a woman who will fireball the party from a literal mile away. Do not do this.||

[turbid dagger]

😭

[frank crystal]

Wait what huh?

[rustic cape]

||She’s at a magical location that increases spell range x 10, and is a good sniping position||

[frank crystal]

Oh my god that’s so dumb lol

[sudden lark]

Is Frozen Flame from PF1e?

[rustic cape]

Nah

[sudden lark]

Cos I was gonna say. 1e Paizo is - oh

[rustic cape]

But PF2e APs have improved somewhat unevenly

I think it’s a consequence of the way they’re written — different writer on each book

[limber comet]

The idea is cool, the execution not so much

[rustic cape]

It would be fun if it also ||depowered the spell and so you had to like … run a gauntlet to get to the lady sniping you, and/or run out her spell slots||

Instead of ||possibly just killing everyone instantly||

[limber comet]

Yeah, a ||no man's land scenario seems much more fun||

[surreal basin]

||does the book tell you to snipe the players??||

||or is it just an unfortunate coincidence?||

[turbid dagger]

I can hardly imagine another scenario intended for ||'caster with fireball on top of a magic rune that boosts spell range by 10'||

[surreal basin]

||…. Maybe she has like…… scrying spells? I’m really trying to give the writer the benefit of the doubt lmao||

[rustic cape]

I think they probably imagined it as a ||”party survives and then approaches carefully” thing but the encounter as set up doesn’t generate that situation||

You could definitely expand it to make it a whole thing

[sudden lark]

Hm. Should I be a sorcerer or a wizard for this PF2e game...

[rustic cape]

But as is? Doesn’t really work out that way.

[rustic cape]

Sorcerer can actually choose any of the four spell lists

[warped orbit]

do you want to deal with spell prep or just be spontaneous?

[sudden lark]

I greatly prefer spontaneous casting.

[rustic cape]

They’re not really “the other wizard” any more

[warped orbit]

then I'd say go Sorc

[rustic cape]

You might also consider psychic

[sudden lark]

Gotcha

[rustic cape]

Psychic can also do the arcane list

[sudden lark]

I'll pick Sorc with a Martial Artist dedication

[surreal basin]

Why martial artist?

[rustic cape]

What’s the intended level range for play?

[warped orbit]

?
no Psychic is always Occult
unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant

[sudden lark]

I think this is a lvl 3 start

[rustic cape]

I may be having a senior moment

[sudden lark]

It's a reference to an obscure character from a popular franchise

[turbid dagger]

Mhm, what you may be thinking of is that psychic can be int or cha
But its always occult listwise

[surreal basin]

Ah okay
I’m sure you’re aware but the martial arts part might be a little rough? It’s workable though as a side thing

I would look into sixth pillar

even after they changed it grumble grumble

[sudden lark]

Gotcha

[rustic cape]

Because sorcerer will ultimately not keep pace for fighting as you get into mid levels

[sudden lark]

(To fuck with people, I might just use Ishtar from FGO as character art.)

Since Ishtar from FGO was summoned into the body of said obscure character's archrival

[novel merlin]

Taking one of the +1 AC stances wouldn't be the worst thing, but actually throwing punches won't do much

[sudden lark]

I see!

[novel merlin]

You don't get expert unarmed proficiency until about level 11, whereas most martial have it at 5 and fighters have it at 1

And it never scales higher than that

[sudden lark]

nods

[novel merlin]

You'll spend basically the whole game at -3 or 4 accuracy due to the proficiency gap and needing charisma to be your maxed stat still for casting. It doesn't make punching totally useless, but your first attack is about as accurate as everyone else's second.

[sudden lark]

Ah.

Well I just want to do flavor stuff with Martial Artist

BTW is the fluff for Sorc the same?

[novel merlin]

Taking like crane stance, turning it on for +1 AC, then just playing a sorc as normal is probably just fine

[sudden lark]

nods

[novel merlin]

More or less. You get magic from your bloodline.

[sudden lark]

Eeeeexcellent.

[novel merlin]

Your bloodline determines which spell list you use

[sudden lark]

🤔 what kind of dragon should I be descended from

[novel merlin]

When you cast spells from your bloodline, you get blood magic triggers which can give you little small buffs or debuffs to throw on enemies and allies. Some feats give you more blood magic options.

[clever cobalt]

The best kind

[sudden lark]

I'm thinking either white or green.

A red would be too much like my character's basis.

[novel merlin]

Chromatic dragons aren't in pathfinder anymore

[sudden lark]

...right.

I thought they weren't retconned out tho? Like they're just not going to be the focus for OGL reasons

[novel merlin]

They still have stats on nethys but they aren't technically a thing anymore

https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=581&Redirected=1

[sudden lark]

Naruhodo

[novel merlin]

Stuff like adamantine, diabolic, and conspirator dragons are the new ones

In terms of what you pick for your stats it's arcane/primal/occult/divine dragon

[sudden lark]

Ah

[novel merlin]

Then if you're like divine dragon flavor wise it would be emperyal or diabolic

[sudden lark]

I was going to pick Arcane.

[sudden lark]

Exemplar?

Huh, so we're not straight-up descended from dragons?

[novel merlin]

You have dragon magic in your bloodline, not necessarily actual heritage

[sudden lark]

Gosh the mirage dragon looks cool

[novel merlin]

If you want to have actual dragon lineage, then you would pick the dragon blood versatile heritage

Mirage and fortune are both arcane dragons

[sudden lark]

...I know this is 3pp content but is Battlezoo Ancestries Dragons getting updated to reflect the new PF2e dragons.

[sinful gyro]

Probably not

Just because typically that doesn't happen for 3pp

But you could see if the author has said anything about it

[novel merlin]

I doubt it just sense paizo has also since added thier own part-dragon heritage too

[sudden lark]

Gotcha

Are the new PF2e dragons still personality-locked?

[novel merlin]

No not really

They have quirks based on the type of dragon they are, kinda, but it's less set in stone

I'd just read the monster pages for inspiration

[sudden lark]

Gotcha!

I don't have Monster Core. I didn't even know it was out

[rustic cape]

Some of them are more specific than others, fwiw

[novel merlin]

But also as a sorcerer you're not at all locked to match your bloodline

[rustic cape]

Like ... conspirator dragons are uh

Conspiratorial

[novel merlin]

Monster core stuff is up on nethys

https://2e.aonprd.com/MonsterFamilies.aspx?ID=402

[surreal basin]

I’m gonna use a sick (like literally ill) mirage dragon in my horror campaign

[novel merlin]

One of the characters in my fotrp campaign is a changeling witch who thinks her hag mother is her patron, but her actual patron is an ancient conspirator dragon that is teaching her magic to protect herself from succumbing to the call

The dragon is also posing as one of the sponsors for the tournament

[sudden lark]

Neat!

[surreal basin]

oooo thats ball

[novel merlin]

The new senshal class archetype coming in war of the immortals does kinda want me to have the dragon and the hag mortally wound each other in a cinematic fight tho

Rather than just the players killing the hag and the witch going "oh shit I still have juice"

[surreal basin]

Can do both

[novel merlin]

Just gotta decide before 18 where patrons claim would have a big dragon hand snatch someone out of a portal

[novel merlin]

True true

[surreal basin]

They have to go finish the hag off

[sudden lark]

Sometimes you just gotta get a big dragon hand.

[novel merlin]

Not a bad idea. I gotta see if senshal is actually cool before I go that direction

Luckily scheduling is making our game go a bit slow

[worthy stump]

a good bit late to this, but just a btw that Reap the Field wouldn't be able to trigger off of Spellstrike, since its requirement is that your last action was specifically a Strike. it's the whole subordinate actions thing that they clarified in the FAQ, that metastrikes like eg. Spellstrike or Vicious Strike don't work with abilities that require the Strike action specifically, and other similar situations

[rustic cape]

I am getting flashbacks to the Primal episode with the zombie/rabid brontosaurus

[surreal basin]

see but with strike specifically at least imo it's really unclear even with that cause like
Does that mean a reaction like cut from the air can only be used against a normal strike, not an enemy metastrike?
I really don't love the way pf2e has strike the thing you do and strike the action

[worthy stump]

nah, CtfA is fine because it doesn't specifically mention the Strike 'action'. but i do agree that it's kind of a pain to parse

[solar tendon]

I think the difference is whether something is a reaction to a strike or an action you take at normal timing that has requirements

[worthy stump]

but anything that says 'if your next action is a Strike...' or 'if your previous action was a Strike...' and such don't work with metastrikes

[solar tendon]

I don't think pf2e actually has Strikes that aren't Strikes. anything else that makes you do strike is meta-action

you still make the strike action within that action

[surreal basin]

see but that implies stuff should say "your last action was the strike action" not "your last action was a strike"

[solar tendon]

strike is the name of an action

[worthy stump]

yeah

[surreal basin]

but its also the name of a non-action thing you can do as part of a different action

[solar tendon]

I don't think that's true

[worthy stump]

it's still a Strike action, you're just getting to do it as part of another action. but since the action you took was not Strike, it doesn't work for anything that has that as its requirement

[solar tendon]

I think there's like 'attack', which can be part of a strike action or a cast a spell action I think

as a first order action

but when a meta-action says 'Strike' it means you take the Strike action

it basically comes down to whether the thing you're looking to do is reactive (either a reaction or a triggered free action) or not

[surreal basin]

yeah i do get it I just think it's 's profoundly unintuitive

[worthy stump]

i do agree

[surreal basin]

you strike but you don't

because like.... logically, yes you did make a strike

power attack says "make a strike"

you made one

[worthy stump]

there were huge arguments about this before they made the FAQ clarification, and a lot of grumbling after too

[solar tendon]

you do strike, but the last action was a power attack

[surreal basin]

yes i understand

fully

100%

i'm criticizing paizo for this being weird lol

[solar tendon]

I don't think it is weird is the thing

but that's fine

[surreal basin]

then why was it such a huge point of confusion

[solar tendon]

I guess I mean like

I don't think it'd be weird if they ruled it the other way either

[worthy stump]

the intuitive thinking would be (at least for me) 'oh, this requires a strike to work, so it should work with this other action that's a strike+', but then it definitely goes against that. but i get why they did it for balance purposes. paizo really wants to avoid all the buff stacking from 1e happening again

[surreal basin]

yeah

[solar tendon]

I just don't really find it unintuitive

[surreal basin]

although i do think they're a little too cautious when it comes to that since 2e is such a different game

that's fair but I'm saying like

[solar tendon]

mostly cause it's self consistent I guess

[surreal basin]

think of it from the perspective of someone coming to the game

unless you were told this beforehand or read the faq

i think theres very little chance you would figure out it works this way

i really think it would be fixed by the wording literally being "you took the strike action"

or something to that effect

[craggy thunder]

tengu aldori firmament magus sounds like a good time

[solar tendon]

idk if I've ever been under the impression it worked the other way

so that is my perspective coming to the game

[surreal basin]

okay

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[solar tendon]

mhm :)

[surreal basin]

I guess i consider you an outlier then lol

[solar tendon]

I'm fucked up and evil

[surreal basin]

maybe

[worthy stump]

as someone who has helped guide new players through the game a lot. i could see either reaction, yeah

different players grasp things at different speeds and difficulties

[surreal basin]

anyway its also one of those rulings where like

[solar tendon]

I think sometimes though, abilities are designed as if it's not the case if that makes sense

[surreal basin]

i will generally abide by it but im not gonna be a rules lawyer about it

oh absolutely

paizo forgets how the game works like

[solar tendon]

which is a problem

[surreal basin]

all the time

[worthy stump]

yeah, i definitely get that

[solar tendon]

so I think which ability you encounter first is part of it

[worthy stump]

there's a reason is an emote, haha

[surreal basin]

i think if an ability makes sense to be allowed to break the rule ill allow it tbh

like this is def a rule i don't

really care about following to the letter

unlike it's sister rule "you can't do a metastrike when it says 'make a strike" which is super important

[worthy stump]

oh yeah, definitely

you don't want people doing reactive spellstrikes and other shenanigans like that, lmao

[surreal basin]

Yeah lol

Although I’ve also seen new players or people who don’t get the rules as well try to do that a lot too lol

[worthy stump]

yeahhh, that's not surprising, lmao

[rustic cape]

I agree with Emily that there’s Strike: The Rules Concept For Making A Non-Spell Attack, and then there’s Strike: The Action Which Includes Only That Concept And Nothing Else

But while those two things having the same name is a bit inelegant and obtuse, I think it’s probably a good design call

[solar tendon]

I don't think the first one exists called Strike in the rules

so it's more a meta issue

[rustic cape]

Because yes it will look odd to People Like Us, but People Like Us are also reading in enough detail to see the difference if and where it matters

The shared name is for people who are not reading at that level of detail

[surreal basin]

we're talking about when power attack says "make a strike"

which is a different thing from the strike action because you aren't doing the strike action

[solar tendon]

no that is the strike action

[surreal basin]

but its not because rules wise you did not just do a strike

you did a power attack

which included a strike but not the strike action

[solar tendon]

nooooo

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1166

so compare this example

'You then Stride twice'

that's the stride action

[surreal basin]

right but you couldn't use something that says it can be used after a stride

[solar tendon]

no, but that's for a different reason

[surreal basin]

and the reason is

[solar tendon]

so like with power attack, by the time you get to the timing of a non triggered action, what it sees is like

power attack(strike), next action goes here

the strike is entirely contained within the power attack activity

so when you get to the timing of your next action, your last action was 'power attack'

you still made a Strike subordinate action

[rustic cape]

AFAICT that’s not explicit in the rules, but again, writing the rules at that level of logical granularity would be bad for the game

[solar tendon]

and anything that is directly triggered by a strike (action) still goes off

[rustic cape]

A strike is one concept that is two concepts

[surreal basin]

that is a good way of looking at it but it's not really explicit - yea

[solar tendon]

just not actions you take at normal timing with a requirement

wdym

[surreal basin]

like there's not really a rule that confirms what youre saying to my knowledge, it's either a way of conceptualizing the actions based on the way that things have been ruled, or it's an unstated assumption that you're expected to have

[solar tendon]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2335

I think this is the main relevant section

I really don't agree that this is just a conceptualisation - this is literally why the rules work the way they do

[surreal basin]

okay

we just fundementally disagree on this I think so I'll just cede the arguement

[solar tendon]

fair

[surreal basin]

regardless i think it could be in a better place/the 'the last action you made was a strike" could be worded better

[solar tendon]

I mean I'm not claiming that I have total knowledge of the rules and there isn't something that contradicts my understanding, but I'm also not going to change my mind without being shown that

[surreal basin]

just because regardless of your personal understanding of it it is a point of common misunderstanding and is therefor not clear enough in some way

i'm not talking to you about that anymore, like i said

i have ceded that you are correct

what more do you want from me

[solar tendon]

why do you think I want more from you

[surreal basin]

I don't know, that last message just had the vibe that you thought i was still trying to change your mind

when i was just saying that, with the assumption that you are correct, maybe paizo should do something to make that more clear/evident

[solar tendon]

I think I misread 'cede the argument'

[surreal basin]

okay

oh man you can't even lik

like

look at the orgiinal players guide version of rules

on aon

[solar tendon]

weird

[surreal basin]

cause i was curious if that little subsection was added in core to clear it up or not

[solar storm]

Yeah I think this has always been kind of a pain point to explain that it's gotta be you taking the specific action and not as a "sub action" in a way that PF2 is usually clearer about

[surreal basin]

oh wait no there it is its just not like

[solar storm]

Like if they said "gain the benefit of a Stride action" for those or something

[surreal basin]

there as an option

yeah that could be something

it is in core rulebook

I think the specific problem is moreso that it feels really weird that power attack isn't a strike

if that makes sense

like it feels like it should be

i suppose this is why dnd usually just says "make a weapon attack" and so on

it is silly that its in a sidebar though

since this is an incredibly important rule lmao

sanyway like i said this is the kinda rule that im like

eh on anyway

also
checks sure strike
doesn't involve strikes
this time im really gonna do it

(i know its because spells are strikes and sure strike is for spells but its funny given the name)

[solar tendon]

oh huh

[worthy stump]

sure strike
looks inside
not just for strikes
-cat image-

[solar tendon]

it works for metastrikes too

[worthy stump]

mhm

[surreal basin]

yeah it works for anything

[solar tendon]

which is good cause those are how they make gishes work lately

[surreal basin]

it works for uh

wait

it might work for manuevers

like trip

holy shit yeah

[worthy stump]

they do have the attack trait

[surreal basin]

anything with the attack trait makes an attack roll

wait no

god i despise rules text

of course attacking wouldn't explain what an attack roll is silly, that's in checks

an attack roll is only a spell attack or an attack made as part of a strike seemingy

seemingly

[solar tendon]

mmmm

if only there was some kind of trait system

[surreal basin]

see that only determines

[solar tendon]

that they could have used, instead of defining it as just two things

[surreal basin]

if it gets MAP

[solar tendon]

yeah

[surreal basin]

what else would we have used it for

silly

attack trait: an ability with this trait involves an attack

the trip action: WHAT AM I

[echo briar]

If I’m making a unionist archetype, what name can I use that’s the closest to strike without causing confusion?

[solar tendon]

work stoppage

uhh

more broadly 'collective bargaining'

broader in a different direction 'civil resistance'

[echo briar]

3 actions
frequency: once a day
linguistic, auditory, mental
 You use your powers of speech to divide your foes, and make the commanders to give into the commands of the underlings. Make a diplomacy check against the will dc of one foe within 30 feet.

Critical Success All of the characters allies that are of a lower level then them go on strike, and can not take any hostile actions until the chosen character spends 1 action to give into their demands, or you or your allies take any hostile action against a striking character.
Success Same as a critical success, but it only prevents characters 2 or more levels lower then them from taking hostile actions.
Failure There is no effect.``` what level class feat should this be?

[novel merlin]

What if thier underlings don't have demands?

Or the foes don't have a defined power structure

[echo briar]

You're just that good

Its a linguistic effect, so your foes must be smart enough to understand you for it to work

[novel merlin]

I mean it's effectively a stunned 3 on any number of creatures in turn order between you and the creature you target. What is the diplomacy check against? Will DC of the underlings? Of the single target?

[echo briar]

of the single target

[novel merlin]

Probably needs incapacitation and to be level 10+

Or no incap but like level 15

[echo briar]

I'm not sure it needs to be incapacitation due to the fact that it would only matter in extreme combats

[novel merlin]

It's super turn order dependent but removes a whole turn from a bunch of creatures that don't get a save against it themselves

You get to just wail on a bunch of kooks while they stand there u til thier boss takes a turn

[echo briar]

oh, I forgot the "or until you or one of your allies uses a hostile action against them" clause

revised the wording

[novel merlin]

The 5th level spell synaptic pulse is an aoe stun for comparison

[ashen knot]

Looks like this one is for 1e, but it's a good cause
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/493349/the-beacons-are-lit-bundle

[limber comet]

Chat

Do you allow water breathing spells to also compensate for like

Extreme pressure

[echo briar]

no. I do enforce the bends

You want to go deep? hope you have a few hours to decompress

[limber comet]

Hm, good to know

[echo briar]

I am also a scuba diver lol, so I will look up the diving charts if I need to

Generally, humans can survive a ton of pressures, if you give them time to balance themselves with the environment. The problem is moving too quickly in either direction

[limber comet]

I'm an aspiring diver

I just think for the fantasy of it, diving with magic probably makes it a bit easier

And some ancestries/heritages bypass it entirely

Azarketi and Merfolk specifically

Especially if you're doing a combat that quickly switches between depths

Like, a rapid ascent to escape a sea monster

[echo briar]

how rapid are we talking?

30-60 ft isn't going to be pleasant, but you should be fine

[limber comet]

Mmm that's probably fine

[echo briar]

And by "fine" I mean like drained 2, sickened 2

[rustic cape]

I think it depends on why you'd be enforcing it

If it's just gonna be a punitive thing, I think that would suck? But on the other hand if it's something the players are forewarned about and can be forearmed against, that could be fun

[limber comet]

Okay! It was mostly just for fiction I'm writing involving my pf sona

[wooden orbit]

Begging for the GMs running games on days I can potentially sign up for a table to run something other than Abomination Vaults.

Also can you play APs like Strength of Thousand through society?

[solar tendon]

yeah

except agents of edgewatch

[rustic cape]

Was it banned?

[eager mountain]

nah it just about being cops

[rustic cape]

I know

I was just wondering if that caused it to be banned from PFS

[silver geyser]

That's avoiding arguments in advance

[echo briar]

when your making high level characters, particularly when not using lump sum, do you have a harder time chosing what higher level stuff to take, or what lower level stuff to take?

[warped orbit]

I generally find lower level harder personally

[echo briar]

I'm making a 14th level character for prey for death, and it feels like there's so much more useful stuff between levels 7-11 than 12&13

or at least its stupid easy to prioritize the 12&13 stuff

[warped orbit]

Well 12 is like Greater Striking IIRC

[echo briar]

yea, which is why its very easy to prioritize it over everything else

[rustic cape]

Low to mid level stuff can be very build defining

If there’s no levels you can free up later on that can be constricting

[echo briar]

Luckily, prey for death has a way to get more gp at level 1, but the entire party needs to agree to it

[echo briar]

why does Irori's moderate and major boons give you occult spells?

[rustic cape]

Monks can get focus spells as occult or divine

And occult is generally where "psionics" falls

[craggy thunder]

Is there a like

magic secret police faction? <XD

I have a character from a dead 5e game set in Wildemount who was a Volstrucker (mage stasi)

[clever cobalt]

Depends where

[craggy thunder]

I suppose if I wanted the location to be culturally similar it'd have to be uuuuhhhh

fuck what country is lepidstadt in

Ustalav

and the closest seems to be the Bureau of Special Affairs

Which just seems to be general spookery

Oh wait

Order of the Palatine Eye

[craggy thunder]

Meet Faulkner, a member of the Order of the Palatine Eye sanctioned to operate within Numeria

[rustic cape]

Fireball

I cast fireball two rounds in a row in my party's last fight and it was absolutely worth it

[limber comet]

I hate this meme template

I don't get it

[sinful gyro]

The 3rd panel doesn't follow the original comics format, which messes it up a bit

But the general idea is, Calvin stays awake thinking of something that doesn't make sense in their head

[rustic cape]

"here's an oversimplification that doesn't actually make sense but that you will find sort of haunting because it almost seems to"

In practice though it's less haunting and more infuriating

because in most cases it does not, in fact, even vaguely seem to make sense

[craggy thunder]

are there any techy archetypes that would fit a character exploring numeria?

[sinful gyro]

Aside from inventor?

[rustic cape]

I think we need more information

[warped orbit]

Ostili Host, but reflavor it to a cool gun or cyber arm or something

[craggy thunder]

The character idea is a magus investigating tech that they find in Numeria

[sinful gyro]

Scrounger?

Archeologist?

[craggy thunder]

ostilli host definitely has the vibes

but sadly seems beetlefolk exclusive

[warped orbit]

eh, Surki have access but it's just uncommon

especially if you reflavor

[sinful gyro]

Oh if it's like, body mod stuff

Sterling Dynamo

[craggy thunder]

Honestly I think ostilli host wins out, this is rly fuckin cool lol

[warped orbit]

it's an amazing fucking archetype

it's kinda cracked tbqh

I think it's a top tier archetype for quite a few characters now

especially great on Investigator too, because it's a reliable non Strike action for bad DaS turns

[craggy thunder]

soothing pulse feels like an amazing 'oh shit' button

in particular

[craggy thunder]

we are out here making a werefox fighter

[surreal basin]

What’s an idea for a cool water themed treasure I could give a level 15 party that’s hidden behind a puzzle

It can be an existing item or a concept for a custom one

[sinful gyro]

Torrent Spellgun

Fish gun (major)

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2128

[surreal basin]

Yknow I could also make a relic

[keen raptor]

I'm disappointed that it's single-use, but that can easily be workshopped

[wooden orbit]

Had Seven Dooms for Sandpoint recommended to me recently. Is that one a pretty good ap?

[sinful gyro]

For pf1e? I think so? It's good enough that they're bringing it to pf2e as well

[solar tendon]

im pretty sure its entirely new

its just the first sandpoint adventure in a while

[sinful gyro]

Ah my bad

But yeah it's probably good?

[limber comet]

I've read thru it

It's pretty neat

Can't really speak on the mechanical content but the story and encounters are cool

[worthy stump]

One of my friends is running it atm, I think their group’s enjoying it

But they’ve also played through pretty much all the Sandpoint/Runelord APs so that probably influences it, heh

[craggy thunder]

I wish the armored coat was 2 gp like it was probably meant to be instead of 20

[solar tendon]

yeah it's dumb

especially since early on is when it / other comfort stuff is most reasonable

[wooden orbit]

Was told it's a good substitute for Season of Ghosts if I can't get into a table for that.
I haven't played any of the PF1E APs. Though I've seen two DMs running Curse of the Crimson Throne converted to 2E over on StartPlaying.

[clever cobalt]

I've played SoG (couldn't finish it as I had to leave the campaign for IRL reasons) but what i did play was pretty good

[wooden orbit]

Yeah, same here

I haven't had a chance to play the full SoG AP, and I want to.

[clever cobalt]

I had to leave midway through book 3

[wooden orbit]

I was originally playing as a Scalekeeper Vishkanya Forensic Investigator

I didn't get to complete book 1

[craggy thunder]

tfw two of your characters are human but they're both very different cuz one's scalybait and the other furrybait

[wooden orbit]

Think my background was Northridge Scholar, but the idea for my Vishkanya was that her/their family was like second generation in Willowshore, and it was a small group of Vishkanya families that kinda kept to themselves, other than helping in the logging industry. My PC was kinda tied into the garrison as their detective so to speak, so she was pretty familiar with Zheng Peng, commander of the barracks.

[clever cobalt]

I was playing a Nephilim Kitsune Fighter

I forget which background thougg

[wooden orbit]

This time I'm probably gonna play either a Yaoguai, Hungerseed, or maybe Wayang?

[wooden orbit]

Think we had a Duskwalker Cleric in our group. We also had a human magus who didn't fare too well in some of our combat encounters. A kitsune, and then a rather tall human barbarian, she was flavored as a ronin and was dating Luo Xi Yang. My character was also friends with Luo since she often helped Luo track down information on old cases, laws, etc for Willowshore.

[craggy thunder]

hmm

I wonder if you could reflavor a firbolg from 5e into 2e

[limber comet]

That is one thing 2e is missing

Playable giantkin

[wooden orbit]

Wonder when we'll get Lost Omen books covering Casmaron, or Arcadia

[clever cobalt]

Hopefully

We know next to nothing about either

Which is odd cause Casmaron borders Avistan, and has plot-relevant entities there

Like the Kelish Empire or Vudra

[warped orbit]

I was surprised to find out Casmaron has so little info on it

[limber comet]

Casmaron definitely needs a book yeah

[clever cobalt]

Yep, I hope it's the next "major' LO book

[wooden orbit]

Same

I am kinda excited though far as new APs go for the stuff involving Treerazer and Kyonin, and the Orc focused AP

[clever cobalt]

Yeah, they're neat

I also can't wait for WoI

Which is next month

[wooden orbit]

Yeah!

Was also not expecting a certain someone to be the cause of Gorum’s death. …Cause I thought they weren’t allowed to harm deities

[clever cobalt]

I mean I don't think it's spoilers, we've known it's Acherak since they revealed Gorum died