Pathfinder

[worthy stump]

and it's an easy matter for the GM to fix the matter if it becomes an issue of the players farming the lich for XP'

[keen raptor]

I'd say yeah. If you don't want the party farming the lich, then set up the encounters so that it's not easy to farm. Have it appear somewhere even more dangerous than before, or introduce a risk of it or its minions showing up throughout the campaign until the soul cage is destroyed.

[heavy wolf]

https://youtu.be/mrndSo8Uelo?si=KF7bfHj3Sw_OCmNx

Speaking of farming a lich

[wary yoke]

Looking for some advice; I'm looking to update Godless Healing and Mortal Healing for use in my setting, but with Robust Health now being a feat, does anybody know what the best way to update those to be Remaster-compatible?

For Godless Healing, I'm thinking of losing the extra health gained, but making it so that the Battle Medicine 1-hour immunity applies to everyone, not just on you.

Mortal Healing can probably stay the same, just with the flavor requirements shifted

[surreal basin]

Does robust negate the other two?

[echo briar]

Honestly, I’d go the other direction. I’d keep the extra health, and let it stack with robust health

I may even have the health scale, or give you a bonus to other medicine checks

[wary yoke]

Robust is just a better version of Godless Healing with no prerequisites

[surreal basin]

thats fair

guess it depends on if your whole party is willing to take it

[wary yoke]

The point was keeping the atheism/medicine synergy

[surreal basin]

yeah my personal thought is that godless and robust shoulld just stack

[wary yoke]

In our setting, there is a major school of thought within the specific anti-theist philosophy that revolves around use of medicine and charity to reduce people's need to turn to gods for aid

"healthy people with less worries can make their own educated decisions"

As I said, Mortal Healing can probably be left alone

[surreal basin]

oh yeah mortal is fine

uh

robust and godless stack already raw

theyre both untyped bonuses

[wary yoke]

I mean it's pretty obvious one is a replacement for the other

[echo briar]

I would personally make it “additional healing and a small bonus”, but you can optionally make it stronger at the cost of making magic healing less effective

[wary yoke]

Interesting, but doesn't quite work with our setting

Because the Faithless Philosophy does have magic healing, because for all intents and purposes, it is an actual deistic faith

[surreal basin]

The +5 hp thing that godless gives is honestly like

A ribbon anyhow

[echo briar]

Not at lower levels

[surreal basin]

When compared to the other thing it offers which is game changing

[wary yoke]

Part of the reworking is that it's loopholing magic from the Faithless to work normally

[surreal basin]

I mean I guess so yes

[echo briar]

So make it scale

50 hp at level 20 is significant

[wary yoke]

Which is what Robust Healing did, plus making it not a skill feat so anyone could pick it up to get healed by medicine more

[echo briar]

How would a god of atheism (as in the gods should not be viewed as superior to mortals, not that the gods don’t exist) distribute clerics?

Standardized tests?

Interviews?

[true delta]

An exchange of theologico-philosophical tractati.

[wary yoke]

He is most certainly not a god. Gods are immortal, see. He's a powerful philosopher chosen by the previous holder of the title to inherit the mantle of Faithless before they commit ritual suicide. Because mortals should not be beholden to immortals, a lot of people agree on this, and it turns out if you knock off enough god-kings with a unifying philosophy, all that energy has to go somewhere.

(also, most gods in our setting were previously mortals before their unwitting ascension)

Some philosophers are granted spells if as part the philosophy's organizational needs.

Generally it's seen as no different than developing abilities as an arcane caster or bard

[novel jacinth]

We're on session 2 of Cosmic Birthday and I think I've finally hit a point of criticism for it. (spoilers for the first section of the adventure) ||It is.. way, way, way too combat heavy for my tastes. I get they wanted to stress-test the combat system but the pacing is rapidly becoming unfun as someone who prefers roleplay over combat. And the statue fight isn't really fun, personally speaking.||

[echo briar]

I mean, out of combat stuff doesn’t need nearly as much testing

[novel jacinth]

I get it but like. It's still not fun to play this much of the combat.

[thorny berry]

To give an alternate take: the godless god may embody a concept of a sort of paradoxical self-sacrifice; a sword forged to end war, a king who wields the powers of his office to break the iron hold of the monarchy.

A god of such domains would surely seek out followers who exhibit and partake in similar acts of sacrifice, but above all the sacrifice of power over others. Perhaps their highest priest was once the wealthiest man in the world, now dressed in rags.

[echo briar]

I would much rather they make a bad adventurer but good test now, than a bad system later

[novel jacinth]

Okay. Fair. And I'm not saying the combat is bad. I am saying I, personally, am just not really having fun with what's kind of essentially turning into a ||dungeon crawl.||

[echo briar]

I don’t think the PF2 playtest was like an actually good adventure. One of them just straight up killed you

[wary yoke]

The lore is already established, we're just updating the setting to 2E. The big source of conflict with the current Faithless, Balthazar, is that this was thrust upon him unexpectedly; since the Faithless first ascended, they would groom a replacement before they would off themselves to pass along the mantle. The previous holder of the title was unexpectedly killed by a new god; Balthazar before then was just a remarkable, if unassuming, philosopher working on legal abolition of the empire's enslaved war captives. The mantle was suddenly thrust upon him, with all the powers and abilities it entailed. However, he also realized that the power doesn't mean anything, when acting to use the power would betray everything he stands for.

[thorny berry]

oh whoops lol

[wary yoke]

One of his first 'official' acts was empowering a curse crafted to cut off the base of the fertility god that had killed his predecessor. His second act after that was mounting the defense of the general that thereafter killed the fertility god; the general was none to happy to learn the Faithless was another god in all but name.

[rapid wagon]

does starfinder also allow for the alternate hp system using stamina?

i might run it with it to kinda make playing it a bit more distinct

[echo briar]

That’s an alternate PF2 rule

[worthy stump]

you can just use the existing PF2 ruleset for it, yeah

[echo briar]

Although it’s kinda pointless

In SF1, stamina let you have more combats without needing to pull out 500 wands of cure light wounds, but PF2 has like 10 different ways to do that

So all stamina really does is inadvertently nerf most forms of healing, as they can no longer bring you above half health

[uneven wren]

Shocking reveal in starfinder today: the Envoy has a radiation drake brother!

[rapid wagon]

I don't actually have a problem with this tbh

[uneven wren]

How will she be able to have a stable relationship with her newfound brother when he still serves her evil father?

[rapid wagon]

Maybe it's just the way people talk about it in this channel, but the assumption of total health refill at all times for any reason doesn't exactly wow me

End of the day is an alt rule that they provide to play with, so might run with it

I liked it in sf1 and like that it's in pf2e

[solar storm]

It's an assumption in that the attrition rules don't really expect people to be entering combat with reduced HP (in terms of encounter tuning)

But there's a lot of situations narratively where the party may not have the 10 mins to 2 hours it can take for a full heal

[rapid wagon]

That's kind of three nuance I feel like gets left out of that conversation

There seems to be a common assumption of always being at your ideal state of readiness that just doesn't seem to jive with the actual rules

[solar storm]

I think the stronger distinction is that 5e makes resourceless healing pretty much impossible to get and PF2 doesn't

So there's a lot of ways to heal up outside of combat without burning any resource but time

[rapid wagon]

That makes sense, but that makes the stamina more interesting to me

Because all that actually demands is more time

In narrative

[warped orbit]

yeah but the thing that Stamina actually mostly does is nerf in battle healing

because something like a 2a Heal can now only heal someone up to a threshold instead of all their HP

[tough perch]

i think that nuance in particular ends up easily squashed out when you try to make it brief
"you should enter every combat with close to full health unless there's good reason not to, such as having very little time to accomplish something." is very easily squashed into "you should enter every combat with full health"
specially when your objective is to show how expectations are different from other games, which have a stronger (theoretical) focus on attrition.

[warped orbit]

and there are almost no effects that can restore Stamina except for one feat

[solar storm]

That's why I'm a little iffy on it without homebrew, there's just not as many things that hook onto it

[tough perch]

and yeah, stamina is not really going to make people go into battle in less than near full health, since you go back to full stamina in ten minutes

[warped orbit]

the thing is also that chaining encounters without allowing a resting period affects the encounter balancing quite a bit
in ways that are harder to predict than normal
doing two moderate encounters back to back is harder than doing them separately, but also not as hard as all of those enemies at once

and on the flipside, you can potentially carry buffs between fights, which can make things easier

[rapid wagon]

Have any of yall actually run stamina in 2e to poor results?

In general I decry the idea in ttrpgs that everything will always go to plan and you will be at your best and most capable of handling it

Messaging wise it takes something from the whole thing when as a hero you physically cannot be worn down by any amount of back to back conflict and it's "be brought down within the space of a single minutes long battle or not at all" I guess

Might just be a me thing though

[solar storm]

Stamina will probably not change that

Since it basically makes a lot of that out of combat healing "automatic" but it also makes in-combat damage a little more menacing since it makes full healing in combat harder

[rapid wagon]

Mmm that's fair

My limited experience with pf2 at level 1 didn't really give me the same impression I've been given by people telling me about it, I suppose I'll see in this higher level game

[solar storm]

What impression?

But also yeah PF2 feels different at lower levels from later levels

A lot of the stuff in the system hasn't quite "unfolded" yet because of limited access to feats

[rapid wagon]

Going into every fight under ideal party condition was one that didn't happen

We had to choose to push on while at a less than ideal circumstances with hp and tools, at risk of compromising the objective or making it harder for ourselves later. And we did a boss fight where most of us were at half hp

And we ultimately handled it

[warped orbit]

lack of access to Continual Recovery holds back Treat Wounds before level 2/3

[rapid wagon]

And honestly, going into that fight at half hp really upped the anti and tension for us

[solar storm]

I also can't relate as much since my primary PF2 group has an animist with garden of healing so our out of combat healing cup runneth over

[solar storm]

Time sensitive stuff is a great way to make moderate and severe combats really tense without just throwing ultra-amped stats at the party

And "if you stop and rest for 10 minutes the situation will worsen somehow" is not, IME, a very hard narrative stake to engineer

[rapid wagon]

I agree, and it felt organic

Our level 9 party is gonna have a life oracle and me as a champion

[solar storm]

That's a lot of healing yeah

[rapid wagon]

And then at least 2 characters with training in medicine and kits

I'm hoping the gm isn't going to feel discouraged by our healing coming from 1e

Since most things are just not gonna stick without additional external pressure

[solar storm]

I think the healing being strong feels a little weird at first as a GM

And then you get a lucky crit for like 50% max HP and see why its generous haha

Or a boss crit for like 75% max hp

[rapid wagon]

Lol fair enough

Would it be fair to mention something along those lines to her. Lest she feel a bit unempowered to meaningfully affect us beyond the immediate

[warped orbit]

the main danger IME is a boss being able to hit you twice or three times
especially if they crit once or twice in there

[solar storm]

Yeah definitely

[turbid dagger]

That's a conservative figure tbh
I've seen people just Smote Down in one hit more than once

Albeit, mostly casters

[solar storm]

Yeah I am being conservative haha

the game my GF runs had a level +3 Ifrit miniboss 100-0 someone when they crit-failed their save vs rank 4 fireball for 64 damage

(everyone else just failed and that hurt too)

[turbid dagger]

A big moment in our SoT game was the boss of the first arc coming up out of the ground and casually bonking our Sorcerer into dream land as his first action

[warped orbit]

+PL bosses are also the most volatile at low level

it evens out more later

because damage generally scales slower than HP does

[solar storm]

Yeah things are more stable after level 8 or 10 or so

[warped orbit]

in the mid levels most things are tanky enough to take a crit or two and keep going

but that also goes for the enemies too

it gets harder to just take out enemies in a crit or two

but yeah tbh, with a Champion and a presumably healing focused Life Oracle, you will be very durable

Champ reaction blunts out damage a lot

and 2a Heal is a lot of healing

[rapid wagon]

I'm running diehard and tough as my paladin

As well

[solar storm]

Champions are tough as nails and also make everyone near them tougher

[rapid wagon]

Party is
Ranger
Fighter
Fighter
Oracle
Champion

Lotta beef

Not a lot of magic

[warped orbit]

people can always pick up Trick Magic Item or casting dedications

scrolls go a long way

[rapid wagon]

Our first session after transitioning to 2e in this campaign is this coming Saturday, which I'm kinda jazzed about

[warped orbit]

I picked up some casting deds on my Investigator, and it's paid off big time

being able to keep some Heroism scrolls around for big fights is incredible

or Slow, Synesthesia, etc

or scrolls for out of combat utility

[rapid wagon]

I think neither of the fighters have any interest in picking up magic, maybe trick magic though. The Ranger and I could get focus spells or do the same

Oracle obviously already magical

[warped orbit]

which for the record, that party is Fighter, Barb, Ranger, Investigator

I'm basically the only "caster" of our group

and we're fine

I'm also continously astounded by how much of a wall of beef our Barbarian is

they have I think literally twice the HP of my Investigator

[rapid wagon]

Oh I was less concerned about our fine Ness and more like

We have loads of beef, and we'll be healing to full a lot

I could see how that might become discouraging

On the gm side

To see the edifice of steel and hp get chipped down with each encounter only to get rebuilt immediately

I almost feel like the oracle is going to be public enemy number 1

With knowledgeable enemies seeking to shut them down quickly

[tough perch]

i don't really feel like that, when i'm gming and that happens

if the pcs are ending fights with low hp or spending resources on healing i'm feeling like "yeah, they're threatened. i've made this encounter well for their abilities"

[rapid wagon]

I figure I can forewarn the gm, with the context that were coming over from 1e and that she has not run 2e at all yet, that the healing is normal and that the damage you do in combat matters even if we heal up, and maybe also that you'll do more damage in combat than you're probably used to

[tough perch]

oracle would be public enemy number 1 for any smart enemy comp though. looks squishy with high impact

[tough perch]

thats good advice

[rapid wagon]

Our hp bars will be swinging like a well oiled saloon door

[sinful gyro]

Oh yeah, yeah I cut the statue fight entirely on my second run through, it's very ass at level 1

But it's worth remembering that part 2 is less combat focused

Part 1 is designed to be a bit of a dungeon crawl

(with traps and enemies in equel measure)

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-shaking-head-gif-21797829

WHY ISNT IT A CONNNNEEEE

[sinful gyro]

Characters don't have facing

[rustic cape]

In fairness that would — yeah that

[sinful gyro]

And it'd be really annoying to track

[eager mountain]

im just gonna say that my flashlight is an ORB

a light orb that I hold in hand

like a physical orb

[true delta]

It's almost odd to me that facing isn't a thing in such tactical games.

[sinful gyro]

Due to the adding tracking required, it's only worth doing if it has a major effect on the game

So you'd end up sorta building the games rules around it

[fast hill]

facing would be really cool

stealth facing would be cool too

[unborn rain]

All characters are constanly roatating at all times

The only time they stop is to do cone based seeking

The 6 minute gap between the set up and punchline for this joke is due to me forgetting the exact wording of seeking for a hidden enemy and searching every other possible wording for spotting a hidden thing

[novel jacinth]

yeah, it's why I was sort of just sucking it up and getting through it. I don't think it's bad to playtest the combat, I think I just didn't enjoy it much.

it's great combat, operator is still a blast. I just hit my limit with how many combats I can enjoy in a row pretty quick.

[echo briar]

I feel like that would turn into either “never get caught” or “the GM has full control over when you get caught” territory

[surreal basin]

Okay thanks for saving that wrong discord

Whyyyyy just post the gif

Whatever, my player made a cool gif of a thing that happened in my game but I guess it’s illegal to share it

[sinful gyro]

I can see it

Spooky shadow coming out of a mouse wizard?

Sorry ranger

[surreal basin]

Oh okay good it works

Yeah!

It’s his familiar

That’s actually a long dead shade of an ancient warlord

Who came out to try and get into a forbidden part of a dungeon for plot reasons and kinda compromised the wizards “I’m not a wizard” gambit

[rustic cape]

Spherical elf in a vacuum

[fast hill]

When you are behind someone you roll stealth normally, when you are in LOS you roll with penalty. This would mostly be like, in-combat stealth

[frank crystal]

So like, in general the ranking of physical damage types is generally:

1. Bludgeoning
2. Slashing
3. Piercing?

[warped orbit]

I'd say so yeah

bludgeoning is the least resisted
slashing has some weaknesses

[frank crystal]

Sweet

[rapid wagon]

its kind of funny that bludgeoning is the least resisted

considering how lke

the evolution of weaponry

and defenses and so on

[thorny berry]

also just in it being, like

the least associated of the three with your average fantasy hero frankly

[frank crystal]

I feel like they’re pretty associated with any religious characters

[rapid wagon]

The irony being that most examples of armor and defenses (historically) work extremely well against bludgeoning weapons, because of the way the force gets delivered and the impact gets spread out

obv pathfinder isn't irl; and the damage types arent so clear cut irl

but its just a bit funny

[echo briar]

Better than slashing

Honestly piercing should be the best, but it’s currently the worst

[solar storm]

On what grounds exactly?

[rapid wagon]

in terms of resistance It's one of the more naturally effective "types" perse, not that it generally solved armor or anything, but looking at things like the spear, the dagger, the warhammer, and the flanged mace in a historical context; they were often kings in their own territories

between just the 3 id probably want piercing to the least resisted; though not be a particularly large margin

[echo briar]

Resistances vs weaknesses

It’s not huge, but it’s there

But most things that resist slashing or piercing also resist the other, but there are many things that are weak to slashing, but very little is weak to piercing

[solar storm]

No I mean why should it be the best

[echo briar]

It tends to do the best against armor, including things like tough hides or scales

But it’s a game, so it’s just mildly funny instead of an actual issue

[solar storm]

I think it gets kind of muddied by all the fantastical enemies but I get you

Like piercing is naturally bad vs skeletons and oozes

And iirc those are mostly why bludgeoning is the best

If you fight everything in the MM in even splits anyway

[echo briar]

I kinda want some sort of weapon trait that makes a (usually piercing) weapon better against high AC targets, but that seems like a pain to implement

Maybe if the attack is a nat 10, but you still miss you get an effect or something

[warped orbit]

it's mostly those yeah, and a few miscellaneous ones
most of the time, when something is physical resistant it just resists all the same

[echo briar]

How do you think the mechanic will be mechanically different from the inventor?

I could see them as much more consumable focused, kinda like a gadget based alchemist

Maybe even consuming biohacker

[sinful gyro]

I think a key difference between them will be, there's a lot more tech around you in starfinder

An inventor makes their gadgets and tools on the fly

A mechanist can like, walk up to a machine and do a thing

Cos there will be machines you can walk up to

[warped orbit]

I assume Mechanic will have a lot of tech based buffs and debuffs yeah

[echo briar]

I feel like while that will be part of it, it will likely not be the main difference, because presumably they want the class to work even when you don’t have a machine to walk up to

[sinful gyro]

I see it like having a class about animals in pf2e

[rapid wagon]

I feel like an inventor is a macguyver esque character, a mechanist is more of... hmm

[sinful gyro]

You're gonna find animals in almost all games

[rapid wagon]

not macguyver

[echo briar]

Yea, but you’re going to be turning into animals, or summoning animals. If you haven’t seen an animal in 5 days, you will mostly be fine

[solar tendon]

inventor has a lot of mad scientist type flavour

like overdrive and unstable explosions

etc

I think mechanic will be Not That

[sinful gyro]

Yeah, I imagine it more like Miles O'Brian but with more grease

[rapid wagon]

is the mechanist in 2e still the drone/exocortex class, do we know?

[sinful gyro]

We don't know

It's coming out later

They'll probably give us a preview but, not for a while

[rapid wagon]

hmm i remember it being a "ranger equivalent but scifi" a little bit

but i guess itll have more of its own identity

i did love the drone building myself tho

[echo briar]

I kinda hope drones take over animal companions for the most part, but have a unique identity

Like, the support benefit and the advanced maneuver should be selectable separately

[rapid wagon]

yeah, something like a campanion class distinct from animal comps and eidolons

[fossil temple]

Hey question, how good is Gunslinger Drifter?

[warped orbit]

Stab and Blast is pretty good

[thorny berry]

though stab and blast also kinda carries the subclass on its back

master proficiency with no extra damage riders or anything on your melee attacks is a bit rough

'strike + reload' is still an excellent single action when positioning lines up for it

but yea hit wouldn't be unfair to call it rather finicky to use effectively

[fossil temple]

If you could use free archetype with it, what you owuld pick?

Seems he kinda rides off on later levels

[thorny berry]

hmm

[fossil temple]

Barbarian to help with damage?

[thorny berry]

unlikely since rage isn't gonna help with finesse weapons or ranged damage much

[warped orbit]

archetype Rage won't really help you that much

[fossil temple]

damn

[thorny berry]

pistol phenom might give you a few more options with your ranged weapon?

it's definitely a subclass that I would basically never archetype on without FA because they really need a bunch of their native class feats

sniping duo is always good I guess

[fossil temple]

True, it gives a lot of good buffs, even if
You know
Yo ugonna be in their face XD

[limber comet]

Has anyone posted the Starfinder gm core cover yet

By Kent Hamilton

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6vx89?Starfinder-Gen-Con-FollowUp

[turbid dagger]

Huh, is that supposed to be A Metaplot Figure

[heavy fulcrum]

probably, definitely some kind of Azlanti but i dont think its anyone previously established

[echo briar]

That’s actually John Paizo

[warped orbit]

definitely got that evil empire look

[echo briar]

Do you think the SF2 GM core will have any new, SF specific rules?

[fossil temple]

I hope it has at least has ship travel time mechanics

Right, D&D 5e

[clever cobalt]

Yeah the ship in the background has the Azlanti symbol on the hull

As does the guy's forehead

[sinful gyro]

Azlanti seem to be making moves in sf2e

So that makes sense

[sinful gyro]

There's the two new skills, the existing skills getting sf2e actions, the new conditions and traits etc

Although I guess some of that will be in player core

There will be stuff like that

[echo briar]

I feel like all of that will be in PC

GM core will have higher level items if PF2 is anything to go by

[sinful gyro]

Probably some unique hazards to

And I could see some more sf2e specific mechanics

Stuff like the chase rules can be used by either side

But stuff like using computers etc, that's more sf2e

I could also see a lot more about environmental hazards

Planets with no oxygen, acid rain, extreme weather conditions

Especially since environmental hazard protection is baked into armor

[echo briar]

Any new alt rules you can think of?

HB weapon making seems fitting

[sinful gyro]

Well like I said, lots of environmental ones

And stuff for computers for research etc

[echo briar]

Those are base rules, not alt rules

Things like free archetype or ABP

[sinful gyro]

Oh alt rules

I thought you just meant sf2e specific rules

[echo briar]

ABP will need minor changes if they reprint it

[sinful gyro]

Very minor

Well sf1e gave us stamina health rules iirc

I could see them taking another swing at it

[echo briar]

If they want to go crazy, they could give us P≠NP variant rules

[sinful gyro]

Meaning

[echo briar]

Hacking is not as good

Or more technically, you can not hack something as quickly as you could use it normally, which based on how SF hacking tends to work, is not the case

[sinful gyro]

What

[echo briar]

It’s an unsolved question is computer science, which seems to be solved in the SF universe. I think alt rules for the other solution would be neat

[sinful gyro]

Oh, okay. I don't see how that would apply

[echo briar]

But probably not likely because I feel like your response is the common one lol

[sinful gyro]

I do have a CS degree :p

I just don't see how it applies here

[echo briar]

I think hacking is to easy

I want to make it harder with a cute explanation

[sinful gyro]

Okay

That makes more sense

[carmine egret]

For a second I thought that was Karzoug

[craggy thunder]

bro has the vegeta widow's peak

[clever cobalt]

They went to war with the Veskarium, so that at least is a current happening

[sinful gyro]

Iirc, they're bringing out their elite troops as well

So I could see them being the Big Bad of sf2e

Along side the Swarm and stuff

[clever cobalt]

They are? What do we know about them?

[sinful gyro]

They're mega fascists

[clever cobalt]

I mean I know that much

though I was asking about the Elite Troops

[sinful gyro]

Oh my bad

[clever cobalt]

np

[limber comet]

We know they're called Sihedron Guards

[sinful gyro]

Might take me a minute to find, i think it was just in the live streams

Yeah that's the name

In pf2e they were the azlanti elite guard

[clever cobalt]

mhm

Neat

[sinful gyro]

So them coming in sf2e represents big moves from the Azlanti

[limber comet]

Also I thought the Sihedron was Thassilon's thing

Am I stupid

[clever cobalt]

It was

Sihedron was a Runelord iirc?

[limber comet]

The Sihedron, or Shattered Star is a magical artifact of incredible power created by the archmage Xin, the founder of ancient Thassilon, himself. It is sundered into seven shards, each made of a different skymetal.

[limber comet]

Also yeah, Azlanti humans are like, known for their widow's peak

[sinful gyro]

If you look close, the guard in that image and the evil Azlanti guy on the GM core cover both have the Sihedron symbol on them

[clever cobalt]

yep

also the ship in the background

[sinful gyro]

So it all seems connected, somehow

[clever cobalt]

Maybe they're a secret society/conspiracy in the Azlanti

[limber comet]

Yeah I just had that realization today, that the Azlanti Star Empire uses the Sihedron as a symbol

I was like "wait, isn't that"

[sinful gyro]

The emperor guy does seem to have just killed a bunch of people

Maybe he did a coup?

And that's lead to this war with the Vesk

[limber comet]

Well keep in mind, we know a Devourer cult is involved in some way

Empires Devoured after all

And the conflict on Atuity (Vesk and Azlanti joint settlement) is where that scenario takes place

[sinful gyro]

It's gonna be cool to see the Autunm plot develop

And see how Zon Sheyln and the Newborn god shake out in the long run

I hope they keep both as a background plot thread in new APs

[clever cobalt]

What happens there? I recall Autity being generally peaceful and even cooperative

[limber comet]

Shrug, devourer cult shenanigans

[clever cobalt]

And yeah, rhe Newborn interests me a lot

Given they're a non-evil Outer God

Insofar as morality applies to them at least

[limber comet]

We won't know until October and Empires Devoured

[sinful gyro]

Cosmic birthday puts the newborn plot front and center

So I'd love a good AP that's about the new born to follow on from it

[limber comet]

I am kinda glad Nyarlathotep got the boot from the core

[sinful gyro]

Like how you could go from Big Trouble in Little Absalom into Abomination Vaults with a couple tweaks

(Fun fact, chapter 2 of Cosmic Birthday is called "Big Trouble in little Akiton")

[limber comet]

Oh we're going to little Akiton?

Rad

Can't wait to explore

Even if it is a lil limited by time constraints

[sinful gyro]

Minor spoilers 😛

[limber comet]

Eh even if I was spoiled, getting to play at all is great

And you're a great gm

[sinful gyro]

Thanks

But the whole Ghost levels plot could easily becomes its own AP

And you could tie that into like, rivals groups dealing with the Newborn

And maybe some kinda refugee crisis from the exploded planet

[limber comet]

The Ghost Levels are really cool honestly

I'm glad we got an adventure of sorts to explore them

[limber comet]

Also yeah, a refugee crisis causing habitation to expand into the Ghost Levels is mentioned in Drift Crisis

[sinful gyro]

Neat

[limber comet]

Though in that it's far less of a liminal space

Sorta

It's hard to explain

[sinful gyro]

Yeah, it seems the lore on them changed a bit

Cosmic birthday actively calls them a liminal space

And tells the GM to make it all spooky

[echo briar]

This is what I hope for with SF animal companions

[sinful gyro]

You can play as an artillery beetle

Shirren get a bug gun

[limber comet]

I mean the Ghost Levels being a part of an adventure proper is good enough for me

I am sad The Flumes got removed though

[worthy stump]

from the earlier conversation, btw, the Sihedron i think was originally an Azlanti symbol? at the very least the goddess it represents, Lissala, is an Azlanti deity originally. Thassilon was founded by a guy who wanted to escape Ancient Azlant's debauchery and such, before he got betrayed by his greedy runelords and his empire became just as bad

interesting that it's what they chose for the Azlanti in SF2, though. i want to see what the implications of that are. since they did already print Lissala as the patron deity of the Star Empire

[surreal basin]

Sidenote about piercing damage: for whatever it’s worth, I think the differences between the physical damage types are extremely minimal

Add an undead type that’s weak to piercing (like make ghosts or ghouls weak to it) and it’s p much on the same ground as the others

Now, there are two obvious directions this should evolve in: either combine them into just “physical” because the difference is already minimal (not great because PF2E has just enough situational difference between them that that would feel bad)
Or, my preference, stress the difference between them and go ham with it

Give a bunch of shit resistances against specific physical types, give everyone armor spec, give the damage types different properties or something

[solar storm]

I agree more delineation would be nice

[surreal basin]

It does kinda bother me that there’s not a uhhh

Undead type weak to piercing

When there’s one slashing and bludgeoning are both better against

(Zombie and Skeleton respectively)

[worthy stump]

man, the only creatures i can think of where piercing is the best damage is rakshasa, since they have resist to the other physical types. and i guess some slimes

[solar storm]

I struggle to imagine an undead particularly vulnerable to piercing thematically

[surreal basin]

Taking a page from Pillars of Eternity

Could have it be good against incorporeality in general

Because it literally pierced the veil

[stuck bane]

Maybe a zombie-apocalypse-style zombie (gotta go for the brain)

[echo briar]

Vampires

Piercing the heart (usually with a wooden stake but still) is one of the few ways to kill them

[keen raptor]

I had the same thought, but that's a whole different mechanic specifically for vampires in PF.

Basically you stake them after KOing them so they can't regenerate

[echo briar]

That doesn’t preclude them from being weak to piercing

Anyway, I think there’s too many damage types. It should be 3-5 total

energy, explosive, and kinetic physical, elemental and spiritual

Let tags do the rest

[solar storm]

Fair choice yeah

[surreal basin]

thats fair but i feel the same about this as i do the claim that all classes can be boiled down to subclasses for fighter mage and rogue

in that it's techncially true but loses a lot of interesting nuance

[echo briar]

I mean, the trait system could totally replace it

What is the difference between being weak to fire damage, and damage with the fire tag?

It’s kinda redundant

[charred surge]

hey fellas i had a funky character build iddea

Level 1 Magus, Alchemist Dedication

dual Heavy Rondaches and alchemical gauntlets, warrior automaton with magical fists for beefy damage

[surreal basin]

i mean the same measure does damage type need to exist at all

you could just replace it all with tags

[charred surge]

my dm said it works as increasing the die size twice so it becomes d8s for the gauntlets

[surreal basin]

you can only ever increase die size once

now it's common to allow that rule to be bypassed in special cases

[echo briar]

You absolutely could. It just might make formatting easier for some things with a few damage types

[surreal basin]

to continue this thought, I think they didn't wanna rely too much on the tag system

[charred surge]

yeye i asked he said its badass so im cool

i did double check but he said since im dedicating towards it with both an ancestry type and a class feat it balances out

my idea is to prep versatile vials as potions and insert them before each fight, and swap off hands

so i get say a bottled lightning in one and alchemists fire in the other

once inserted they get 3 hits of bonus damage each, and they dont lose potency once inserted until 1 minute after the first hit

so i use the heavy buckler on left, punch with right

and if i run out of hits (i plan on spelstriking as often as possible for maximum magic damage) one the right hand i swap off, using the undamaged heavy buckler on the right and my left gauntlet

i do only have 4 charges, aka 12 potion charged gauntlet hits each daily preparation but i think it sounds really good for level 1 build right?

(with the starting archtype rule but yknow)

[stuck bane]

There is the wrinkle that things can deal more than one damage type at a time, so a purely tag based approach might have issues if a spell dealing fire and holy damage hit something with fire immunity. There’s also weapon property runes that can add more damage types.

[limber comet]

Saw someone say "they're massacring my boy" in response to the sf2e gm core cover today

Starfinder 1e superfans when 2e is actually compatible with 2e rules

[rapid wagon]

i mean

they can still play sf1

if they want

[limber comet]

I mean yeah obviously

[rapid wagon]

The response feels a little dramatic, but it's the internet i guess. If they they feel that strongly its not like the other option stopped existing. Maybe their hopes or expectations arent met thats valid

[limber comet]

They've complained about it in the past

The only valid criticism that wasn't just "starships aren't back" or "mechanic and technomancer aren't core" was like

The hp system from sf1e no longer existing

[rapid wagon]

doesnt it though? Via the stamina optional rule in pf2?

But also I think not liking something in and of itself is a valid criticism. It's not really actionable, but that doesn't make it invalid

[limber comet]

Ehh I've heard complaints it doesn't really work well

[rapid wagon]

but it exists

which is different than not existing

[limber comet]

That's true

[echo briar]

they really care that much about some unknown azlanti guy?

[sinful gyro]

Seems like they just don't like the cover yeah

[echo briar]

What was on the SF1 GM book cover?

Like, it seems fine.

[sinful gyro]

It didn't have a GM core iirc

[echo briar]

I’ll have to see it on an actual book though

[sinful gyro]

It was just The Core Rulebook

Which looked like this

[echo briar]

Are they complaining that there is a GM book at all?

[limber comet]

They literally only said "theyre killing my boi"

After I posted the cover

[echo briar]

Like “put every necessary gm rule in the core book” has some merit, as it means you only need to buy one book, but the rules are free anyways so it’s not a huge deal

But even if all the essential rules are there, you can still fit a whole book with very nice but not technically necessary rules, like preremaster PF2 did

[limber comet]

I think they're moreso whining over sf2e in general but I'm like 50/50 on the core rulebook being split into gm/player core

Overall it's not a huge deal for me personally

[rapid wagon]

i wonder how much work it would be to update existing sf adventures to e2

2e*

i had wanted to do the aeon throne for the longest time

[limber comet]

Probably a decent bit of work, but doable

Pf1e adventures have been ported to pf2e, like a lot by the community, so Starfinder will probably be the same

I want Signal of Screams to get ported

[echo briar]

Do abadars banks charge interest?

[light gyro]

oh hey tian xia char guide on the way

[echo briar]

Cool. Did you get a pdf or did you just preorder it

[clever cobalt]

My Order is reserved but hasn't shipped yet

I really wanna see it

[echo briar]

Why is the shadow mystic divine, when shadows are pretty much always occult?

Occult mystics exist, so it feels weird

If they want to do things differently and make it not occult for some reason, then I would honestly swap it for rhythm, making shadow primal and rhythm divine

[solar tendon]

that is weird

[warped orbit]

They just wanted it to mirror life I think

[echo briar]

Like IRL, or the life connection?

[warped orbit]

the latter

[turbid dagger]

tbh I almost feel like its that specifically to do a funny spin on the concept
People were going 'rhythm should be occult like bard' when the first preview got dropped
So I can see them deliberately going 'what other traditions can these concepts we've used before be presented as'

[echo briar]

Yea, which is why I suggested swapping shadow and rhythm

Primal shadow seems quite fitting, as does divine rhythm

[warped orbit]

Shadow seemed pretty negative energy coded when i read it
so it makes sense to me that it's Divine

[turbid dagger]

A west march I'm in is doing a 'what's your favorite X' thing for PF2e 😌

[warped orbit]

Trick Driver, really?

[turbid dagger]

Look
It IS useless

But Its fun

And its also astonishingly easy to get out of

Since its the only archetype in the WHOLE GAME with a skill feat 2 and skill feat 4

So if your doing free archetype its like
You get it for free practically

[warped orbit]

huh

[turbid dagger]

But yeah, Trick Driver is doing NOTHING in a fight but
Its a nice narrative allowance

And you can Earn Income with it 👁️

[echo briar]

My favorite is shadow dancer. More archetypes should start at later levels

[frank crystal]

Are you now gonna make a character with all of these?

[turbid dagger]

You know, I figured someone was gonna say that
What a nightmare character

Dragonblood Hobgoblin Thaumaturge with a Scizore Weapon Implement who worships Gruhastha, takes scroll thaumaturgy for Bloodspray Curse, Trick Driver Archetype early on then Duelist for Twist
Just an abomination

[frank crystal]

An extremely terrifying combination however

[turbid dagger]

Disarm on a thaum might actually be a lil sexy yeah
Implement's Interruption can go off on the disarm fix, and eventually it'll disrupt on a hit as well as a crit

[light gyro]

Bought the book

[clever cobalt]

Alignment chart

[keen raptor]

Just ordered my copy as well. My Core 2 book arrived today too.

[clever cobalt]

Would it be possible to share it? Mine is taking forever to ship >_>

[keen raptor]

I don't have it in PDF form since I don't have the subscription. I have to head out soon but I can look something up if you have questions about anything.

[clever cobalt]

Ah, fair

Nah I was looking for the PDF, thanks though

[keen raptor]

I actually submitted a ticket about mine last night since UPS never showed anything on the tracking number they gave me.

So of course, the package was at my door today

[echo briar]

Same thing happened with the SF2 playtest book that got there today

Absolutely nothing from UPS. I only know it got here when my apartment sent me a notification saying they got it

[keen raptor]

UPS is pretty legendary around here for constantly fucking up.

[echo briar]

I mean, it got there within the 4-8 days they promised. It was day 8 but still

Just got some more operative playtesting done: the class is good, maybe too good, but the weapons need work

Compared to the other weapons, the snipers need something. Unwieldy is really punishing, as is the single shot capacity.

They probably need one or the other, not both

[clever cobalt]

What's Unweildly do again?

[echo briar]

You can only make 1 attack a round, and never as a reaction

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[echo briar]

Like, d10 is good damage, and fatal d12 means it crits like a truck, but for 2 actions I’d rather have a second attack, or even like a hide

If it was like 6 capacity but unwieldy it would be fine, you make one big shot a round and then have the rest of the round to do other stuff. If it was capacity 1 but not unwieldy, then it’s action intensive but you can use the various reaction abilities the class has, or spend 3 actions to make 2 attacks.

[clever cobalt]

Fair enough

[turbid dagger]

WHO WAS GONNA TELL ME
THAT PC2 ADDED NEW WEAPONS
LOOK AT THIS

I'm rolling up a Spirit Barbarian as we speak

[thorny berry]

huh

what else of note?

I think with howl I also saw somebody talking about a combination beast gun, which sounds wacky

[clever cobalt]

Is this advanced

[turbid dagger]

Yup!

[clever cobalt]

Because holy shit yeah that's good

Als9

Finally a good Kholo weapon

[warped orbit]

oh huh

that is a pretty neat weapon

cooler Greataxe

[turbid dagger]

There's a d10 reach hobgoblin spear, and a tripkee club
They are less impressive, but lemme find em

[warped orbit]

B with Versatile S is pretty great

[turbid dagger]

You may see 'hampering' and start crying and throwing up but the effect is different now

[warped orbit]

yeah I heard hampering makes like, the area around you now more difficult to move in?

oh it's a targeted effect now, I see

[turbid dagger]

You can spend an action to apply a hefty speed malus to your targets next move

So I must imagine this has been discussed heavily with how common Flickmace is
If you crit an AoO with a flail in response to someone standing up, do they have to save against crit spec or fall over again (prone->stand up->get proned)
Or does the effect resolve before they complete the 'get up' part of the action and have no effect (prone->get proned->stand up)

[warped orbit]

yes

the AoO happens after they get up

so they will be knocked back down

[echo briar]

Any non advanced kholo weapons?

[turbid dagger]

Ah, so the AoO doesn't actually benefit from the AC malus of prone

[warped orbit]

correct

[turbid dagger]

Well thats a lil sad but glad you can re-prone

[warped orbit]

there is a special case for move actions that don't make you leave the space

If you use a move action but don't move out of a square, the trigger instead happens at the end of that action or ability.

[turbid dagger]

Got it
Still, Spirit Thresher Knockdown Fighter seems quite nice

Versatile S/B is such a charming trait

[warped orbit]

flail still slaps

even with the nerf now

[warped orbit]

it gets you the two best damage types depending on what you need
Sweep is useful for Swipe or Whirlwind

and d12

no reach, but it's still basically a better Greataxe if you got access

[surreal basin]

Also someone who played a meteor hammer fighter

The nerf was necessary

That shit was silly

[warped orbit]

I have also played one, and have to regrettably probably agree 😛

there were a lot of times where I would Knockdown someone, but I crit on the attack so the Trip was moot

[surreal basin]

SAME

I was playing a Belmont expy

[thorny berry]

a couple assuming they kept the ones gnoll had

I recall the standout being the uh

axe with thrown and disarm

[echo briar]

Until now there were no gnoll weapons

[thorny berry]

as in the ones gnoll had in its ancestry feats

[warped orbit]

mambele is pretty decent yeah

[craggy thunder]

My vesk has now flirted with an awakened bear lol

[turbid dagger]

Someone in that west march server is apparently getting Tian Xia Glimpses from a reliable source
Very exciting stuff

The archetypes coming are apparently:
||cultivator||
||familiar sage||
||fan dancer||
||five-breath vanguard||
||martial artist expansion||
||spirit warrior||
||starlit sentinel||
||strategist marshal expansion||
||wandering chef||

And Lizardfolk now has ||a total of 8 heritages||
Someone at paizo is a scalie

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah I forgot that’s not out yet

[thorny berry]

I'm curious what the deal with the new magus subclass(es?) is

[surreal basin]

Uhhh

I wanna say unarmed and a floaty wuxia sword fighter

Not confident on the unarmed one, been a while since I checked

[limber comet]

Bladed Scarf specifically for the "unarmed" one

[surreal basin]

There you go yeah it’s about uhhh

Like fabric manipulation

[turbid dagger]

||New marshal stance, Strategist Stance, which gives people in your aura +1 to Reflex saves and makes enemies off-guard if anyone succeeds at an RK against them ||

THIS
WITH TOME THAUMATURGE

[thorny berry]

nasty

[turbid dagger]

You go from being worse at hitting than every other martial to hitting like a fighter

[clever cobalt]

Holy shit

Holy shit

I wanna see this book so bad but Paizo refuses to ship it to me

[carmine egret]

Damn, what is it, some kind of sickle?

[clever cobalt]

it's a Flail

so idk

[turbid dagger]

Its a crazy two handed flail yeah

[surreal basin]

There’s a couple other new weapons yeah

[clever cobalt]

the lore is

Bones, some solid and others splintered, are affixed to metal chains at the end of a long stick to form a powerful flail. Many kholo warriors insist the vicious crack the weapon makes as it strikes loosens fragments of the soul like husks struck from grains.

[carmine egret]

sounds like it would yeah

[turbid dagger]

For the spirit thresher build I think I'm gonna go full stupid
Damagemaxxing
Ligneous Barbarian

[echo briar]

I’m homebrewing an amulet of “protection against that guy in particular”, which gives substantial benefits but only against one person per amulet. How do I limit crafting so the party can’t use it for every fight, just ones they are exceptionally prepared for?

I’m thinking that the targets blood, or the blood of one of their family members, should be a necessary ingredient

[surreal basin]

Yeah that would work

Or having to know the targets true name?

[eager mountain]

is it me or does this guy look like karzoug ?

must be a distant ancestor

[heavy mesa]

Somehow, Karzoug has returned

[carmine egret]

I was thinking that too

[silver geyser]

Has the hairline.

[turbid dagger]

So very funny news from my reliable source about tian xia
One of the archetypes gives you a metastrike when you take its dedication
That's Flurry Of Blows, but you have to make one attack with a weapon and one with an unarmed attack
This comes just AFTER Monk dedication's level 10 flurry is given a cooldown

[warped orbit]

Huh

Though having to split the attacks is a good bit less convenient

[turbid dagger]

Apparently it also gets a late feat that's once per ten minutes
Where you can Completely Negate an attack as a reaction
But break your weapon
And then you can swap to another weapon as part of that reaction

[warped orbit]

Funky

[silver geyser]

It's off-hand club time

[turbid dagger]

I DID think to myself
'necklace of knives'

[rapid wagon]

im gonna have to say to no to some people now, as i have 8 interested people for the playtest o nstarfinder

and it only scales to 6

I guess i could just up the anti in a uniform fashion for 8 people

but that also makes for some long ass turns

[worthy stump]

i would definitely not go past 6 players for most TTRPG purposes, even 6 is pushing it a good bit

[turbid dagger]

One time someone was recruiting for a Dual Class Free Archetype PBP campaign and I signed up, foolishly
And so did like 9 other people
And instead of
Turn some people down
They went 'oh there will be two teams, they'll do separate stuff but meet up between adventures and you can swap which team your on'
I think that game crashed and burned before a single dice was rolled

[worthy stump]

yeah, that's. definitely an ambitious thing to try

[surreal basin]

Yeah I wouldn’t go past 6

The playtest adventures say 4-6, so deviating from that will make your feedback unreliable as well as any management issues

[warped orbit]

6 is already really pushing it IMO tbh

[worthy stump]

depends a lot on the table, but it's definitely in the upper bound for player number

i'm running a 6 person campaign myself, but it's definitely not easy. and i have friends who just straight up refuse to play in a campaign with more than 5 players

[echo briar]

I feel like after 5 people, each player needs substantially more skill to pull off the campaign.

It can’t purely be on the gm to regulate spotlight, each player needs to be proactive when appropriate, and step to the side when necessary to a much greater extent with that many people

[sinful gyro]

So chapter 2 of Cosmic Birthday?

Very fun

2 Thumbs up

[rapid wagon]

hell yeah

im planning to do it after the two single shot scenarios

[turbid dagger]

I should do a Champion
Defensive Advance is So Fuckin Sick
But What God Though................

[rapid wagon]

Iomedae, only because thats exactly what im running

and kinda feels like the poster boy paladin champion

[turbid dagger]

I found Literally Perfect art for a champion of Milani but annoyingly it better fits a two hander

https://pin.it/7Wq1TEJko

On mobile if I could share it in a less cursed way I would

[keen raptor]

Core 2 has introduced me to the Ant Kholo and I love them.

THEY'RE JUST A LITTLE GUY I LOVE THEM

[carmine egret]

The Strength of Thousands AP has one who's an anxious college student

Also, totally unrelated, wanna make sure I'm reading the rules correctly: transferring runes costs 10% of the rune itself and uses normal crafting rules, so does that mean you spend 5% by default and can save the rest by taking extra time?

[solar storm]

Yeah

[sinful gyro]

Isn't she an Ant Gnoll?

[craggy thunder]

Ye

Kholo are Gnolls

[sinful gyro]

Oh my bad

[keen raptor]

Yeah, Gnolls are one of the things that got renamed because of the OGL debacle.

Grippli got renamed to Tripkee as well

Both are otherwise the same though

[turbid dagger]

So I have an odd question
If I want to use specifically a shield boss and flyssa to double slice, is there any way to get equally scaling profs with them as a Fighter, due to weapon group stuff

[solar tendon]

don't think so

both because there isnt any specific options but also because remaster fighter negates the possibility of having those options anymore

like how gunslinger works

[turbid dagger]

Extremely annoying!

Thank you for the info

What an incredibly arbitrary thing to saddle fighter with

[solar tendon]

ehhh

i suppose so

[turbid dagger]

It just
Doesn't seem like it does much except making some edge case builds that aren't actually over the curve more annoying to create

[solar tendon]

yeah

theres not much differentiation between the weapon groups

I mean its kinda a sacred cow thing really

like youre not really gaining anything over a standard dual wield build (even the shield stuff one could just...dual wield shields)

[warped orbit]

having to choose one weapon type is mostly just a legacy thing

[frank crystal]

Oh yah I never realized that planning out my dual weapon shield fighter

That’s

So dumb

What’s the weapon type of the shield boss?

[turbid dagger]

Shield

[solar tendon]

shield is a weapon type

[turbid dagger]

🙃

But yeah double slice shield fighter is a really cool idea
Bash and stab with a light weapon

[frank crystal]

Dumb

That’s dumb

[solar tendon]

i think itd be fair if weapon groups were actually some kind of niche but theyre not really

[frank crystal]

Fuck it

No more double weapon shield fighter

Double weapon shield ranger now in the works

[solar tendon]

twin takedown is fun yeah

[frank crystal]

I was going medium armor anyway

[turbid dagger]

To elaborate on this odd question I am trying to think of a build for this token someone made for me forever ago
(Yes its kingmaker art but its doing the fun overlapping-border thingy)
I don't really wanna do a rogue which obviously is the main vibe
Maybe a swash of some sort

[frank crystal]

he’s using only one weapon go thaum

[turbid dagger]

That his other arm is off-panel is a great blessing 😛

Now he can be a single weapon, dual wielder, or sword + shield guy!

[solar tendon]

I used her in kingmaker

[frank crystal]

But for real vibes, honestly I could imagine her as a ranger or magus

[solar tendon]

played a slayer

so 2e ranger works well

[frank crystal]

Slayer was just a ranger class right?

[solar tendon]

or rogue with ranger archetype

uh no it was a hybrid class

[frank crystal]

Or however those special classes worked

[frank crystal]

Oh that’s what they were called

[solar tendon]

so it got ranger feats alongside sneak attack

[turbid dagger]

oooooo, laughing shadow magus could be cool actually
There's also another one hand + free magus coming soon

[solar tendon]

and instead of favoured enemies just designated a studied foe during combat

[frank crystal]

What is it?

[turbid dagger]

Aloof Firmament
Lots of jumping and maneuveurs iirc
Coming in Tian Xia

[solar tendon]

ooh wait that might be good for wizardball magus

idk if I wanna give up on teleporting though

[turbid dagger]

I FINALLY got some details on the other one coming too actually
It is focused around, believe it or not
The Bladed Scarf?????

[frank crystal]

Like

[solar tendon]

oh wild

[frank crystal]

Just the blades scarf?

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, its like Twisting Tree Magus

[solar tendon]

like twisting tree and staff yeah

[turbid dagger]

Specifically
You can make any normal cloth into a Bladed Scarf by just touching it

You run magic through it to make the edge of the cloth sharp, aiui

Lemme find the exact stuff that was shared with me

Unfurling Brocade (Battlefield Control) - Infuse a piece of cloth with Qi, making it work like a bladed scarf but with a bunch of bonuses. This build gets bonuses when grappling/tripping/disarming, your conflux spell immobilizes (with enfeeble or clumsy 1 on a crit) and there's a feat that lets you create a 15ft burst difficult terrain as a reaction when using Arcane Cascade.

Aloof Firmament (Mobility) - Fight with a one-handed sword and the other hand free. Gain Catfall for free, Quick Jump when you're in Arcane Cascade with bonus damage on your next strike if you Fly, Leap, High Jump or Long Jump while in your stance. Conflux Spell lets you fly up to your speed then strike for a single action. A level 4 feat lets you Leap, High Jump or Long Jump as a reaction after landing a strike (and you can waterwalk until the end of your turn).

[frank crystal]

I mean that is pretty cool

[turbid dagger]

I mixed up Aloof and Brocade's gimmicks- brocade is the maneuveur one

Aloof is about jumping and flying

[turbid dagger]

I wish Defensive Advance was available on more than Champ 😔
Like, it'd be a really good fighter feat too
No real religious flavor
(Yes I've been whining all day I'm trying really hard to make a build I like I am sorry 😔)

[limber comet]

Im thinking

I wonder, outside of space stations and space ships

What type of structures would make good Starfinder megadungeons

[turbid dagger]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Raid_(2011_film)

[limber comet]

Oh that's a good idea

I also had the inkling of some sort of drilling/research rig

Would probably be more horror based tho

[turbid dagger]

That would be cool, yeah
Like a drilling platform in the middle of the ocean
You keep going down and down to reach what they uncovered

[limber comet]

Also consider making the ocean an unusual color

[turbid dagger]

SPARKLING TARGE MAGUS
We are SO cooking gang

[limber comet]

Sparkling Targe is cool I just can't really visualize a character in my head vibes wise, personally

[worthy stump]

Sparkling Targe is fun

[turbid dagger]

This guy was groomed from childhood to be a Star Gladiator
Magus is a very flashy fighting style

[limber comet]

I just have trouble visualizing a shield based subclass that isn't based on tossing it

My brain is broken due to Marvel

[silver geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/braum-thumbs-up-smile-bald-moustache-gif-20468499

[limber comet]

Oh fuck how could I forget about Based Braum...

[silver geyser]

It's ok

[vital kiln]

God I wish Starfinder 2e had more in the way of "huge pistol" type guns

I guess the gyrojet isn't terrible for conveying giant caliber handgun? But it's still just a d6 damage gun at the end of the day, without even a Kickback kinda feature.

[limber comet]

Yeah there's not really a proper revolver type gun yet

[vital kiln]

And like, I know it's supposed to be compatible with Pathfinder 2e and not a single pistol goes beyond d6 damage there, but still

If we can have a d10 one-handed sword surely we can have at least a d8 one handed ranged, y'know?

It's not even like, a major gripe for me

It's just one of those small disappointments that's bugging me more than it ought to

I guess I can always just talk about it with my GM, though, or house rule stuff if I ever run it

At least it seems good overall, and it is just a playtest

[tough perch]

i'm hoping for something like that too

i think it'd be fine for starfinder's ranged meta

hopefully its only a martial, not advanced

would hate to see the bigass revolver gun get the dueling sword treatment

[vital kiln]

I guess it'd make some degree of sense

Gotta know exactly what you're doing if you pick up the Big Iron

Otherwise you'll get a sore wrist after the first shot

If not a sprained wrist

[tough perch]

sure, but the handcanon is such a classic fantasy

it'd be a shame to lock it behind advanced proficiency

specially if it's not worth the feat investment to get it (which advanced weapons rarely are)

[fossil temple]

seems Nonat came back in making pathfinder stuff and did this class tierlist for the remaster, do you guys agree?

[limber comet]

Ech, I don't really like tierlisting pf2e classes

[fossil temple]

That's fair , I was surprised when I saw Traumaturge so much on top

[silver geyser]

Thaum does what it does extremely well.

[turbid dagger]

Time to remind myself what the icons are

[silver geyser]

And what it does is tell a specific enemy to suffer.

[turbid dagger]

Also yeah Thaumaturge is like
A sleeper S tier yeah
Its good at what it does and what it does is actually 'most stuff'

It does the crazy damage in combat

[silver geyser]

It can pivot into great defense.

[fossil temple]

Well then I might as well do a Thau for the first time in the one shot to come

[turbid dagger]

But it also has Esoteric Lore and Diverse Lore to Do Every Int Skill At Once
And has a cha KAS so it can also be your face

That's like
Most
Of the skills in the game

It also has a funny unique niche of being a ranged attacker that gets lots of flat damage

Last fight with my thaum I crit 3 times
And rolled a 1 on each crit's d8
Still did mad damage

[silver geyser]

Don't forget the good utility they can pick up thanks to scrolls too!

[turbid dagger]

Oh yes right!
With scroll esoterica you also get to be a utility caster
For some reason

Its an intensely strange class but its actuall a very effective jack of all trades

[silver geyser]

Yeah, S being Bard, Fighter, Rogue, and Thaum is right.

[fossil temple]

That's really cool to hear, damn

[sinful gyro]

Dude seems mad at oracle changes

[silver geyser]

Inventor in C is wrong imo

[fossil temple]

Dude just sees "everyone is a better oracle than the oracle"

Honestly, by putting Wizard on fucking C makes me feel he don't understand casters :V

[silver geyser]

If this is for remaster, I get why it's in C.

[fossil temple]

It is exclusive for remaster
And do tell

[silver geyser]

Schools are a rough change.

[fossil temple]

oh no

People already said Wizard is weak in regular 2e
And now the Schools are... rough?oh no

sorcery supremacy wins again it seems

[rustic cape]

Cleric too

[fossil temple]

Cleric i need to play in remaster, because in regular Cleric feels like "You eider heal or go in a campaign against daemons, or you are just a worst champion"

[silver geyser]

Divine spell list is still fine.

[rustic cape]

It’s probably the weakest list but

Spells are pretty damn good

Especially if you and your party buff and debuff properly

Spells also still have a ton of narrative currency

[turbid dagger]

I mean yeah if you play Cleric you are healing
PF2e literally enforces this by giving you extra slots that only have Heal (or Harm, but its gonna be heal usually)

[rustic cape]

Four extra top-level heals is not a small thing

[turbid dagger]

Its like saying uhhhhhhhhhhh
'if you dont use guns as a gunslinger your just worse fighter'

[rustic cape]

It’s probably the best burst healing around

Also monk in C wat

[frank crystal]

Also is this just meant to be a like, strength tierlist or remaster changes tierlist?

[fossil temple]

remaster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjEBEpxEswA heres link

Wait, Starfinder 2e released?!

[warped orbit]

Basically the Remaster Schools are overall worse than before IMO
because instead of being able to prepare any spell from your specialised school in your 4th slot, you now get a specific list of spells

[fossil temple]

fuck, sad

[solar tendon]

wait is oracle the only true 4 slot now

[warped orbit]

Wizards are still pretty functional despite that, but it's unfortunate

[warped orbit]

Sorc is still 4, no?

[solar tendon]

oh is it

fair

[frank crystal]

Only the playtest

[warped orbit]

Mostly in that you can just take Spell Blending and swap your school slots out for higher level slots

[solar tendon]

that just seems like it makes spell blending even more the best one

[warped orbit]

Wizards still have the most top level slots that way

[warped orbit]

Well yeah, but it already was anyway tbh

[frank crystal]

Yah universal curriculum is like, by far the best school now

[solar tendon]

apart from cleric arguably

[frank crystal]

There’s really not much of a point to go anything but it

[echo briar]

Sorcerers, summoners, and swashbucklers are S tier, alchemists are A tier, and bards and barbarians are B tier

[solar tendon]

i get that the reasons for the remaster meant there wasnt a long time to consider things

but I feel like theyve really bungled spellcasting in general

like cleric got better

but not really in ways to do with spells

[fossil temple]

He's S tier, in my heart

[solar tendon]

which I think partially thats the nature of spellcasting already being kinda rough

[echo briar]

P tier

[solar tendon]

idk how much I actually blame them

[warped orbit]

Cleric and Bard got dome good buffs I think

[fossil temple]

for purr

[warped orbit]

Witch was also pretty good

[fossil temple]

Yeah, bard having hte one action AoE +1 and one action AoE -1 are killer

[warped orbit]

It's only Wizard and now Oracle that I think they bungled a bit

[solar tendon]

i think like

[fossil temple]

ADHD the ancestry , oh my god

[solar tendon]

idk I dont mean bungled entirely to mean like, nerfed is the thing

[silver geyser]

Skittermanders! 😄

[solar tendon]

specially since if you like casting oracle is a 'buff' overall or whatever

it just feels like its affected every caster

[warped orbit]

I'm not even sure Oracle us nerfed objectively or not
But I think the changes made Mysteries much less interesting

[solar tendon]

yeah I think the class is straight up ruined lol

[fossil temple]

Sad

[solar tendon]

but I think its fundamentaly a result of casting being weird

and like I still really dont agree with the focus change

but I guess there's always 3e in 10 years or whatever

[thorny berry]

'simply don't use any of the subclasses except for one' is a solid oof

[fossil temple]

Aw man, so a fullcaster is even a harder sell now?
At least Sorcerer seems to be improvd

[warped orbit]

Which one?
Being able to Refocus to full?

[solar tendon]

yeah

[warped orbit]

I like that one a lot actually
I just also think they should have made sure every class has some good focus spells to go with it

[solar tendon]

i think its a patch fix that made them feel better at the cost of basically killing the system

or like giving up on the conceptual grounds of it

and also is directly why oracle needed 'fixing' so now im even more upset abt it lol

and I think its also tangential to the overall lack of development of the exploration mode which I also think is a huge missed opportunity

[warped orbit]

I guess I disagree, mainly in that I personally prefer casters being more encounter based in general

[solar tendon]

i mean I dont disagree with that specifically

nor do I deny the initial system had problems

and like I said I understand not coming up with mindblowing game design when you're having to rewrite your whole game before the lawyers show up in incredibly uncertain times

[rustic cape]

Animist too in a weird way

[solar tendon]

oh right sure

dont really super remember the animist haha

[warped orbit]

Oh yeah Animust has four slots basically
I forgor

[rustic cape]

They have two prepared divine slots

And 1-2 spontaneous spirit slots

[turbid dagger]

Fun fact, these guys are so friendly that the Vesk couldn't brutally subjugate them
Because Vesk Honor requires a willing opponent
So they were like 'GIVE US YOUR PLANET, WE RULE NOW' and the Skittermanders were like 'sure c: '
And there was a peaceful transition of power
The Skittermanders possibly planned this

[rustic cape]

Notably the spirit spells are all treated as signature spells

Shit’s rad

Animist is easily my favorite caster

Maybe even my favorite class

[keen raptor]

I'm eager to try out Elemental sorcerer now. I was already going to spec into it since it was already one of the better choices for a blaster caster, but now each element has its own granted spells and focus on damage types. Way more interesting than "Your choices are fire or bludgeoning even though bludgeoning makes zero sense for every element besides Earth"

I'm probably going metal for mine.

Also, I've looked at some of the blood magic feats and they look really fun.

Being able to inflict persistent bleed whenever I cast a bloodline spell sounds amazing

[fossil temple]

Would you say Operative will outclass Gunslinger in "I want to play with a GUN"

[fossil temple]

I love it

Finally
Space Marine !

[keen raptor]

Lizard space marine no less

[frank crystal]

That’s just a normal chainsaw

It’s not even a chainsword that’s just how chainsaws are held

[rustic cape]

Soldier is very good for this

I love Soldier

[fossil temple]

Tell me more about your experience with the Soldier

[fossil temple]

IT'S AN AXE
WHAT
1d10 two hands AXE with Backswing, powered, tech

[rustic cape]

I have only played at level 1, but action hero soldier’s core loop is really fun

[fossil temple]

Very nice to hear

Now for Pathbuilder to add Starfinder stuff >:V

[rustic cape]

You fire a cone, take a shot, and do something else

[fossil temple]

As the blunderbuss should have been

[rustic cape]

You’re good at intimidate and shove at level 3 because you can do them with Con

Don’t really need strength to carry lots of stuff

[fossil temple]

So you are like a
barbarian tank?

[rustic cape]

You can be! There’s an armor specialist soldier style

Action hero is more of a tough controller with some DPR

Soldier notably gets legendary armor and class proficiencies

Its focus is overwhelmingly on heavy weapons

And it’s cool

Kitty w/beeg gun

[trail nova]

Operative is more pistols and rifles guy.

John Wick vibes.

[rustic cape]

Yeah, operative is your sharpshooter and gunslinger

Soldier wades the fuck in and hoses down the enemy with bullets and explosives

[warped orbit]

I'm interested in Bombard Soldier personally
Probably with a Stellar Cannon

[fossil temple]

So soldier is more up close and shotgun?

what i wanted from Gunslinger Vanguard

[warped orbit]

Not necessarily

Though you could also play it that way

[rustic cape]

It will want either an auto fire weapon or an AoE weapon

[warped orbit]

Yeah

[rustic cape]

Bombard soldier actually just has no-friendly-fire AoEs

[vital kiln]

Is Operative good for sword and pistol playstyles then?

[rustic cape]

(Soldier can also alternate heavy ranged with heavy melee, although I’m not sure how strong it is)

[warped orbit]

You could probably do that with Striker or the pistol one (Skirmisher?)

[fossil temple]

Woah

Be the mini-mech

[rustic cape]

SF2e is very ranged-oriented

[fossil temple]

Hard not be when you are in the future and have guns

[rustic cape]

The combat feels meaningfully different

Despite identical rules

[fossil temple]

oh god , Ork player

Anyway I should stop and finish the Traumaturge Goblin for the oneshot
Thank you guys <3

[vital kiln]

Aye

...side note, how DO androids get diseases when they're

Y'know, robots

I guess the assumption is they're biomechanical? But at the same time the official character art of them is all mechanical, the only bio is the plants growing on them.

[warped orbit]

Don't know if SF androids are any different, but in Pathfinder they're definitely biological

[vital kiln]

Poison I can at least kind of see, since you could say the coolant gets tainted or something

[limber comet]

They're biomechanical for the most part

[clever cobalt]

Anyone got hands on the Tian Xia book? I want the info and feas on the Tanuki

[rapid wagon]

soldier is genuinely a class i want to run around with

it looks cool

[clever cobalt]

Also

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6vzjn?Meet-the-Iconics-Samo

Animist Iconic

[fossil temple]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXC4erlcL0g remember to play this on the TVs of your starfinder campaign

[echo briar]

Miasma theory is real

[clever cobalt]

I'm really eager to see the Exemplar iconic backstory

Especially since he's from the Polynesian People of Golarion

We don't have much lore on them

[keen raptor]

That always bugged me about PF2e guns. Why does the Blunderbuss and Dwarven Scattergun work more like a grenade launcher than a shotgun?

[fossil temple]

Yeah i always hated that and honestly, bummed me out a lot from playing Gunslinger Vanguard

[keen raptor]

I'm playing around with making a Doomguy character for fun. Let me have my Super Shotgun, Paizo.

[fossil temple]

With Starfinder you can :3

I want to play Soldier so bad but
Pathbuilder and Wanderer's guide have yet to update with Starfinder stuff :(

[keen raptor]

Yeah but I doubt my DM would allow Starfinder stuff in her campaign

[sinful gyro]

Soldier is very doomguy

[novel merlin]

I mean, shotguns don't really fire in much of an actual cone in reality either

I think the scatter implementation is at least a lot more playable than just massacring your melee allies with cone attacks

[fossil temple]

Not really, when I played with the Blunderbuss I kept just feeling bad for fucking my melee allies :/

[keen raptor]

Splash still does damage to allies, as well as yourself up close unless I'm misreading the rules, so a cone is still closer to how a real shotgun would act.

[fossil temple]

At least with the shotgun cone i can aim better

[novel merlin]

Splash is just much lower damage than a full-damage cone

And backfire mantle exists

[fossil temple]

Ah yes, lets make everyone in my party be forced to wear the mantle because I want to use the underwhelming gun

While in Cone i can hit more stuff and be more useful

Even in Cyberpunk RED the shotgun works more like that and it felt so much better than the mortar-gun

[novel merlin]

The cone does make a lot more sense in starfinder where there is less melee

[fossil temple]

And in theory, you are suppose to use the blunderbuss with the Vanguard subclass, which makes no sense in practice , it ends up being better if you use the Long range sniper gun with vanguard

[sinful gyro]

Is the scatter gun in sf2e always a cone, or only in area fire mode

Ye it can only be fired as an area fire cone

Might be neat if you could get a choke that let's you turn it into single fire

[vital kiln]

How would y'all build for a sword and pistol playstyle in SF2e?

[solar tendon]

drifter

gunslinger

[sinful gyro]

Probably an Operative

[solar tendon]

oh fuck reading comprehension failure

mb

[sinful gyro]

Minor misread?

Perish

[thorny berry]

lol yeah I've been annoyed about this forever, the game feels.... underdeveloped outside of combat