Pathfinder

[tough perch]

but i do agree that gunslinger is probably the weirdest pf2 class to bring to sf2

like if i had a player in a sf2 game asking to play a gunslinger i'd make sure they actually read the soldier and the operative beyond the name before maybe allowing it

[solar tendon]

tbf I think this is as much a result of gunslingers shortcomings in general as it is about game differences

[limber comet]

Gunslinger needs love

[novel merlin]

I think its solid overall with just some mismanaged pain points for specific builds. Especially the melee hybrid ones IMO.

Drifter is even okay, vanguard and triggerbrand are just kinda rough

[limber comet]

I know sf2e is hype rn but gah

I cannot wait for the 2e vampire based ap

[novel merlin]

The real hype is for the 2e magical girl archetype

[limber comet]

For pathfinder

https://tenor.com/view/richter-belmont-castlevania-symphony-of-gif-22438279

I really hope that the Shades of Blood ap is good

[solar tendon]

i always wanted to run oops all magical girls in pf1e

cause there was a few archetypes with the theme of mostly giving people familiars

plus the vigilante one

very much focused on the 'talking animal gives you a destiny' aspect in the former case

[ocean cobalt]

oops all summoners could be legit

[limber comet]

Stando powah

[ocean cobalt]

untamed druid is technically the most magical girl bc they have both animals + transforming i think but idk if thats the right vibe

[novel merlin]

starlit sentinel this month

im so ready

[limber comet]

I'm excited to see what else is in there honestly

[thorny berry]

my gunslinger take is that like

sniper and pistolero are just fine (though sniper reload can be awkward or require system mastery to fully utilize) and the others all need varying degrees of serious reworks

[ocean cobalt]

i wish spellshot were good

[tough perch]

i imagine the big issue for current 2e with an all magical girls party would be that one would imagine magical girls as casters, right

i think solarian could be a great class for a martial magical girl

[barren cipher]

i cast heavy machine gun

[surreal basin]

hmmmm

defiant shirren bonus is too specific

im just reading the playtest in earnest now

[barren cipher]

i dunno, i think the action is good enough

circumstance bonus!

[limber comet]

Speaking of shirren

Great ancestry lorewise

[sinful gyro]

So here's the plan, three 4 hour sessions at these dates and times:

<t:1723467600:f> <t:1723726800:f> <t:1723813200:f>

To do all of Cosmic Birthday

Lemme know if anyones interested

[upbeat ridge]

Mmm, that’s 9 am for me

Maaaaybe…

[sinful gyro]

No worries if you can't

I can't really shift the times

[upbeat ridge]

That’s understandable

[surreal basin]

that's fair i just

really really don't like "bonus against this kind of setting specific thing "

as a basic heritage passive

[barren cipher]

it's a little weird yeah

[surreal basin]

AO

ALSO

I mostly finished my tactical breakdown of goblins in pf2e

if yall are interested

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1isHUrti0VOmtEDSd5Rl4tt3EFcJqjoMOBgFxyd41ivg/edit?usp=sharing

I'd get an actual blog for the future if this is well receieved

[sinful gyro]

Where do I roll to ass? /j

[echo briar]

I mean, it’s effectively a 1 action heroism against bosses

[barren cipher]

the will save boost is a little off, i think just the action would be fine

[echo briar]

Also envoy has a ton of higher level class features

[surreal basin]

Yeah I mean the uhhhh

The passive they get

That’s like +1 against will saves specifically against swarm allied characters

Rebellious defiance is alright though yeah

[limber comet]

I mean I guess you don't have to use the swarm in your home settings but like

Why wouldn't you

They're so cool

[rustic cape]

I’m with Emily on this one

Even if the system has some functional ties to a particular setting

I think it’s good to avoid too many explicit ones

[limber comet]

I mean kucharn is literally a sf2e creature type

Expanding it too broadly would be

Ehhh

It's like saying a +1 to actions against devils is too specific

That's kinda the point

[surreal basin]

no it's not literally too specific just

idk, the swarm is an extremely setting specific idea in a way devils arent

and if you don't agree we dont have any common ground here lol

[trail nova]

TBF, I feel like "evil bug hivemind" is a pretty common sci-fi trope.

Tyranids, Starship Troopers, the Zergs.

[surreal basin]

eh yeah just like

naming the specific thng weirds me alittle

it;d be like if lastwall guys got bonuses specifically against the forces of tar baphon

i dont have umbrage with it per say as much as i don't think it has any precedent really lo

[limber comet]

Kucharn is a creature type!!!

It's a brand new creature type

Hold on

This is from second contact

[limber comet]

This is true to an extent

I dunno

I both agree and disagree

I feel like setting exclusive is very subjective

One setting might have the swarm as major threats, whereas another doesn't

[silver geyser]

It's about the same as having bonuses against, say, Unholy things.

[barren cipher]

i dunno, i think it's vastly less specific than unholy

i think a lot of fantasy settings are gonna have things that you can do special holy damage to

[silver geyser]

Oh, yeah, it is just a whole-ass new creature type by the look of things.

[barren cipher]

not everyone is gonna have tyranids

[silver geyser]

Also, I think coming in with the assumption that SF wants to be a generic game is mistaken from go.

[barren cipher]

i mean it's not like you can bump into them in an outlaw cantina brawl or anything

[limber comet]

I mean as always, confer with your gm before taking a heritage like that

[barren cipher]

it's either gonna be 'this game is about dealing with the swarm' or 'this game is barely if ever going to feature this'

[trail nova]

I will say that after "Human", it's probably one of the best specific creature types to gain bonuses against. Obviously campaign specific, but it's a broad selection of foes across many levels

But I also hate those creature-type bonuses

[tough perch]

i think this kind of creature type bonus works a lot better in equipment

even holy/unholy bonus, which are more generic and a staple, tend to sometimes feel left out

[barren cipher]

what you want to do is have your envoy tell you that all your opponents are secretly corrupted by the swarm

free will save upgrades against everyone

[limber comet]

True...

I do honestly hope these new swarm designs stay monstrous

There were some 1e designs I wasn't really a fan of

The 2e examples so far are good

They remind me of Starship Trooper arachnids

In the best way

[turbid dagger]

Yeah- I get the complaint but I also think that Paizo is mostly just
Not Concerned With making their stuff work as systems for running stuff in custom worlds
You can do so, but Paizo doesn't care about making its stuff for that specifically

[limber comet]

I think their systems are better off for focusing on one specific setting, honestly

The "multiverse" shit hampers D&D 5e SO hard

Like, creating support for other settings isn't a bad thing but focusing on it too much can destroy a system

[tough perch]

i do wish they had some secondary material exploring these sorts of things

like a zine or something, that isn't allowed for society play

but had stuff like

"how to make pf2e clerics be domain based instead of deity based"

i understand it's probably not a good business idea

but i kinda wish i could see what they'd do that kind of thing

[silver geyser]

Speaking from experience on the domain-based rather than deity-based sorta thing, it just leads to very direct power-gaming without flavor.

[tough perch]

experience with 1e or with dnd? my 5e experience with clerics was fine

[novel merlin]

This is my diety, Mr True strike fireball synesthesia

He has all the good domains (I don't play cleric idk what's good)

[rustic cape]

D&D 3.5 had clerics of an ideal, which meant your choice of domains, but tbqh that’s no worse than everyone choosing the same three incredibly niche deities because they’re optimal

[tough perch]

yeah i don't think this sort of thing should be mainline, should be there for the tables that want to do that, maybe with a warning that players may want to pull that sort of thing

[novel merlin]

I think you could make a more optimal diety in terms of domain and spells and skills than any of the existing options

[tough perch]

kind of like an unearthed arcana type of thing

[rustic cape]

I don’t begrudge PF being setting specific, especially now that the setting is much, much better in 2e

But it is taking place within a tradition and historical framework where people have long created their own settings

And it cannot be presented as an answer to D&D if I cannot just make up a place to put it

And for the most part, I can

[sinful gyro]

I think a lot of the games setting specific stuff is uncommon or rare anyway

Tons of stuff works as is in other settings

But stuff more specific, like an archtype about a in setting group, gets given uncommon or rare for that purpose

[rustic cape]

Deity creation is the only really tricksy part of that and by default I would just say “choose a deity I made for roleplay and choose any existing deity for mechanics”

(Because I am lazy)

[warped orbit]

tbqh, I don't see how the current deity system does that any better

[sinful gyro]

Even mechanically how much does that matter anymore? Deity for anathema?

[warped orbit]

there very much is also a thing currently where there is an incentive to pick very niche specific deities because they have strong granted spells and domains

[sinful gyro]

Spells I guess yeah

I'd just copy the spells and slap a new god on there

[novel merlin]

Yeah just take a diety and swap the name an anathema

[warped orbit]

I am definitely in favor of reflavoring there

[rustic cape]

Frankly I’d allow that in a Golarion game

[sinful gyro]

You don't need to do it for every god in the book, just the ones your players pick. Or if you want, make a short list of ones in your setting and have them pick from those ones

[warped orbit]

but I think it kinda shows the flaws in how gods currently work

in that their granted spells are really inconsistent in quality

[sinful gyro]

I see it a bit like, okay what if the orcs in your setting are like PF2e orcs, but they have the ability to fly.

You're always gonna have to do some work with your own setting no matter how the rules are set up

Cos you can't make the rules so all encompassing to account for all potential homebrew setting changes, without making an entirely different rule system than pf2e

[echo briar]

https://the-only-edition.com/paizo-wins-coveted-better-website-than-steve-jackson-games-ennie-award/

[warped orbit]

and something similar also goes for domains
people often select for specific domains because their focus spells are just way better

[rustic cape]

Hell, Nethys randomly has 2-3 times as many spells as other gods Because Reasons

[warped orbit]

because he's the magic god

but yeah I also really dislike that he has nine spells when most other gods have 3

[rustic cape]

To some degree it earns a whatever from me because cleric is fine, but

I do get it

And if our concern is to stop optimizers (hah!)

The current system does not work

[novel merlin]

A couple other magic focused gods have the same deal

[limber comet]

Optimization is for squared

Squares

[rustic cape]

IME optimizers are most interested in finding ways to make concepts work

Within the constraints they are given

A good optimizer is great to have at your table, because they can help other players with that

If they’re an asshole they’ll be an asshole in an optimizer sort of way but

The problem there is being an asshole

(Jfc why do you betray me fingers)

[warped orbit]

I would honestly go further and say that the way gods work currently kinda inherently encourages optimizing your god choice

and introduces tension between picking your god for flavor and character reason and your mechanical options

[echo briar]

The reason is because his favored weapon is terrible

That is part of deity balancing

[warped orbit]

that's a really miniscule "downside" tbh

[echo briar]

However there’s a lot of gods with bad weapons that also have bad spells, so 🤷

[warped orbit]

if you are Cloistered, you probably don't even care

[turbid dagger]

Yeah uhhhhhhhh
Who Cares About Sacred Weapon LOL

[echo briar]

I mean, some give advanced weapons I’m pretty sure

[rustic cape]

There effectively is no deity balancing

Is that important?

I dunno, cleric can still do a good job with a weaker deity. But Alaen is right that some players will be tempted or inclined to make their deity choice to get specific stuff

And if you have two clerics in the same party for whatever reason you might get some FeelsBadMan moments

[tough perch]

there's also me that likes the mechanics of clerics but hates the idea of playing a character who's main thing is worshipping a deity

[rustic cape]

That was part of the appeal of ideal clerics, yeh

Anyway every decision in design has pros and cons

[upbeat ridge]

Yeah, paizo sticking to dieties only and not allowing ideals and such is a missed opportunity imo

[limber comet]

Yeah, I agree

[echo briar]

Is this (lvl *2)+ cha, or 2(lvl+cha)?

[warped orbit]

the first I think

[solar tendon]

former yeah

[keen raptor]

My core 2 book finally shipped today and I can't wait to dig in and see the changes.

[limber comet]

They're good, you'll enjoy

[keen raptor]

Nonat did a brief overview of some of the class stuff. I'm playing a sorcerer in an upcoming campaign and it's the simplest thing that I'm most excited about: Dangerous Sorcery is a base class feature instead of a class feat now

Which is perfect for my blaster caster fire elemental sorc

[surreal basin]

Oh btw

New character idea

Vesk Deserter who became a Pahtra Partisan with her Catgirl GF

[limber comet]

I HAD A SIMILAR IDEA

But like, m/m instead lmao

I just didn't think it'd be appropriate for the game

Great minds think alike

[surreal basin]

:3

[limber comet]

I need a vesk to hold me honestly

[clever cobalt]

How do you think an Industrial/Victorian Golarion would look?

Dishonored is on my mind

[keen raptor]

Dishonored, or maybe Arcanum?

(probably with less horrific fantasy racism than Arcanum though)

[clever cobalt]

What's Arcanum again? And why is the Fantasy racism particularly bad

Also I cant wait for Mythic Rules

And the setting changes in WoI

[keen raptor]

An old CRPG made by the same people who made Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines. MandaloreGaming has a video on it that gives a pretty good overview. Its universe basically explores what would happen in a fantasy world that started developing more advanced technology that supersedes magic.

As for the racism angle, let's just say it takes a lot more than aesthetics from the real life victorian era.

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[barren cipher]

yeah it’s got eugenics, breeding programmes and everything

[keen raptor]

Yeah they really delve into the darker parts of what might happen in a world where technology starts to outstrip ethics.

[clever cobalt]

Just like real life :v

[keen raptor]

Basically, yeah.

So maybe not like Arcanum since Paizo's writing has trended away from stuff like that for the most part

[tough perch]

which is the kind of thing that can be cool to explore in a crpg setting, but would be a terrible fit for a hypothetical steamfinder

[keen raptor]

Yeah, definitely not subject matter that would be appropriate for all tables

The only reason it came to mind was because my DM is doing a homebrew setting for her upcoming campaign, and one of the aesthetic inspirations was Arcanum.

Though she hates the Fantastic Racism trope so aesthetics is as far as it goes

[barren cipher]

the aesthetics are splendid

[keen raptor]

Oh yeah, the subject matter might not be for everyone but Arcanum has one of the coolest settings in an aesthetic sense

[surreal basin]

I would actually reccomend the Warlockracy videos

Over the mandalore one

Since mandalore glazes over a lot of the more legitimately problematic stuff lol

[vast burrow]

So, how would a Fortune effect work if it doesn't reroll the dice? For some reason Illimitable Finisher has the Fortune trait, does that mean you can't do it with Precise Finisher? Or is it probably safer to bet it's an error

[pastel bane]

Hey does anyone here have pathbuilder experience?

I can’t seem to give myself any scrolls

[barren cipher]

custom item i think

[keen raptor]

Yeah. Otherwise they'd need a separate item for nearly every spell in the game and that would be a lot of unnecessary bloat.

[pastel bane]

How do I make custom items?

[barren cipher]

dropdown in add gear on the app, not sure about desktop

[eager mountain]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1196039811291693126/1270676450915389584/SPOILER_Starfinder_2e_Playtest_-_pg_48_-_img_1.webp?ex=66b49129&is=66b33fa9&hm=df4e00b7381c2219c1550c972f529922d4a6b0f0c4f318e155e11385b8c2c0f7& behold the secret rat from the last gpage of the ysoki section

autumn found it while looking for token art

[true delta]

Secret rat
Secret rat

[sinful gyro]

Still looking for anyone who wants to do all of cosmic birthday on these dates

<t:1723467600:f> <t:1723726800:f> <t:1723813200:f>

three 4 hour sessions

Got 2 slots open I think

[clever cobalt]

I'm wondering how direct contact between Earth and Golarion would work

And what would happen

Earth is in the great depression (or approaching it) though

At least as of "modern" Golarion

[rapid wagon]

arent there entities who travel between the two with some level of regularity? Like baba yaga?

[clever cobalt]

Only Baba Yaga to my knowledge

[silver geyser]

Earth has a lot of other stuff going on that reacts violently to magic poking its head in

Because, you know. Lovecraftian stuff.

[clever cobalt]

True

[surreal basin]

Finishers always replace each other unless they changed that

Fortune trait essentially would just mean you can’t use a hero point on it RAW

Or any other kind of dice manipulation

[light gyro]

dies of cringe

[carmine egret]

Me screaming at my houseplants to make them die faster

[keen raptor]

I love Demoralize in PF2E so much.

[vast burrow]

Replace each other?

Illimitable Finisher just lets you attemp two finishers back to back if you hit the first one

[surreal basin]

OH

sorry

Uh, yeah that’s probably not meant to be fortune then

Sorry most of the X Finisher features work a certain way

[vast burrow]

Eh it's fine haha

[rapid wagon]

Is there a star finder character builder for 2e or do yall think that's gonna fold into pathbuilder

[trail nova]

Uhh, up until the CUP to FCP transition I would have said Hephestios likely.

That is the premier 1e builder and the dev had plans for 2e, but the site was forced to abandon development by the change to the Fan Content Policy

[craggy thunder]

We love 11 base damage as a solarian

[rapid wagon]

is there a reason

to take the mauler archetype o na fighter?

seems like they have access to most all of the feats mauler gives

[barren cipher]

advanced weapon proficiency i guess?

if you have free archetype then hey, free fighter feats

i think there are a couple of non-fighter feats in there too

[carmine oyster]

Previously it let you get equal proficiency with 2h weapons as with your specialization, now it lets you get faster advanced proficiency

[limber comet]

Sooo

When is Sonic Colors getting recreated in Sf2e

[craggy thunder]

MAX DAMAGE ON MY FIRST SOLAR WEAPON DAMAGE ROLL LET'S FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[solar storm]

n o i c e

[keen raptor]

[craggy thunder]

crit success stellar bull rush

Solarian is fucking stupid, y'all

Juggernaut Boosters were such a good purchase oh my god

[warped orbit]

if you have free archetype, it also lets you take the good Mauler feats with your archetype feats and leaves your main feats for other stuff

so you can pick up Knockdown/Slam Down with your FA feats and pick up some other Fighter stuff

[vast burrow]

Is there a limit to the Wounded Condition? Or can you go like until Wounded 100 as long as you never go to 0HP

[surreal basin]

….. no but also like

You don’t get wounded outside of falling unconscious really

[vast burrow]

True

[warped orbit]

A few things like Ferocity can increase your Wounded , but it's rare

[surreal basin]

True

Would be hard to get over 4 wounded in any case

[warped orbit]

Yeah

[surreal basin]

Which is good cause it would be really weird

Because past 3 it doesn’t do anything

[vast burrow]

Unstoppable Juggernaut now that Rage doesn't have a cooldown is the only one I can think of

(And the reason I asked in the first place)

[surreal basin]

starfinder notice: is the operatives tactical advance feature, particulalrly its level 17 upgrade, too strong?

being able to compress two strides into one action + not trigger reactions seems absolutey bonkers

especially since its only limit is flourish

[rapid wagon]

anyoen else unable to log into the paizo site:?

[eager mountain]

I can check

nah logged in just fine

[rapid wagon]

first i thought it was i was getting my pw wrong, but i got the reset request pw and it still just takes me back to whatever page im on

[sinful gyro]

Paizo site can just be a bit shit sometimes. Clear cache, try in incognito mode, these tend to fix it.

[rapid wagon]

sounds good ty

[rapid wagon]

for anyone with experience using it, to do the playtest in foundry using their deluxe pack, do i need to make a world with the basic starfinder system and then activate it as a module?

or am i waiting for a starfinder 2 system to exist?

[sinful gyro]

Okay so, starfinder atm is a module for the pf2e system in foundry

On the full release, it will be it's own system

So what you need to do it, download the pf2e system, download the starfinder module for it, download the deluxe pack

Then make a pf2e system world, and add both those modules to it

If you run into issues let me know, I got it all working on my end

Oh also you may want Dice So Nice if you want the custom dice

But that's not essential

[rapid wagon]

ok trying now, thank you

friend of mine runs a pf2 game with a bunch of modules, should i ignore pathfinder 2 QoL stuff for now?

side note

did you install all the content immediately or did you do only the one you intended to play in the moment?

[sinful gyro]

The deluxe content should already install all of it

But I'd only have maps open for the one you wanna run at the time

Most modules should be fine but tbh I'd be warey of module bloat

I have the sf2e one, the deluxe pack, dice so nice, the search widget

And that's it

[rapid wagon]

gotcha gotcah

looks like i have it up and running

this is neat

[sinful gyro]

Do the journals look good?

Some folks its transparent for some reason

[rapid wagon]

hmm looks like it yeah

dang looks like i spent a bit of extra money unnescessarily

[sinful gyro]

How so?

[rapid wagon]

the adventure is pretty much in the journal

but i purchased the various scenarios and cosmic birthday seperately as well

[sinful gyro]

Oh yeah the journals are the entire pdf

[rapid wagon]

drats, but ill live

[sinful gyro]

Pdfs easier to search stuff

[rapid wagon]

yeah thats a bonus

[sinful gyro]

And don't forget you're getting like 3 more things in Feb I think

2 more scenarios and another small AP

Chapter 2 requires the most prep from you as a GM

Cos its open world

For cosmic birthday

1 and 3 are pretty linear

[rapid wagon]

yeah i plan on running the 2 scenarios first i think

[sinful gyro]

Fairs

[rapid wagon]

as single shots

with different characters

then once they have at aste

[sinful gyro]

The ship one seems cool

[rapid wagon]

thats the one i start with i think cause its self contained on a single ship

[sinful gyro]

Don't forget all tech armor has space breathing i think

[rapid wagon]

looks like the ancestries brought in by the field test are limited

and classes

[surreal basin]

?

What do you mean

If the module doesn’t have everything from the playtest I believe that’s a bug

Caused by not having your foundry fully updated

[rapid wagon]

hmm, i activated it on a the most recent version 12 available

version 12 stable

and pf2 version 6.2.0

do I need to hand make or build the classes and ancestries myself?

[barren cipher]

seems fine to me

[barren cipher]

seems like there's a problem with your playtest module

[rapid wagon]

hmm

wonder what i did to mess it up

[barren cipher]

you also need the playtest module

[rapid wagon]

ah

that explains much

thank you

hmm

mustve done something wrong, character options menu is not populated with classes or ancestries...

[sinful gyro]

It's in the compedium

It won't be in the options by default

Gotta open it in compedium and drag and drop

[rapid wagon]

oh thats where im lookin, once im back to it ill screenshot

[sinful gyro]

I'll show you what I see

[rapid wagon]

ima try deactivating/reactivating

[sinful gyro]

Hold on

Make sure your pf2e is up to date

And make sure your modules are this version or newer

[rapid wagon]

ima try remaking the world

ok looks like it works fine after remaking ther world

[sinful gyro]

Nice

[rapid wagon]

for making the solar weapon do you custom make your weapon with your player rather than it being generic equipment?

[sinful gyro]

I made it a custom thing yeah

So if they want a club, I gave them a club and gave it the traits they wanted

And called it "solarian club"

[rapid wagon]

yeah ok that makes sense

im doing some test character building

Tangential, but I was just thinking about how it's kinda weird that pathfinder games often assume people are constantly armed and armored for combat. The game even has rules for donning your armor and feats to do it faster

[sinful gyro]

I think that speaks more to you not being ready for combat?

Like with my paladin, if we get ambushed at night, I don't have my armor on

And we all have to spend an action picking up our weapons

(apart from the guy on watch)

[warped orbit]

mostly because not having your armor on is a huge issue

you kinda need to assume people are armed and armored, because if they aren't you're gonna need to adjust any potential encounters to account for it
because their numbers aren't what they should be

[rapid wagon]

This is how I run it personally

You don't sleep and travel in full plate at all times

[sinful gyro]

To clarify, you run it as if you're in armor at all times

And you don't do sleep

Cos I do the opposite

[rapid wagon]

No I mean I run it as the opposite, I'm commenting on discourse around the assumption of readiness

I run my paladin as someone who sleeps in traveling clothes, or padded armor if the area has known threats

[sinful gyro]

Yeah me to. I do not sleep in armor

[rapid wagon]

Owns a separate set of armor to travel long distance in like an armored coat or similar (recently it got destroyed thanks to an impromptu rescue operation)

[surreal basin]

Yeah RAW you also can’t

Sleep in armor

If it doesn’t have comfort

So the intent is that you are without it for nighttime encounters

[warped orbit]

so the thing is
if we assume the worst case, and you normally wear Plate and have 0 Dex
and you are completely unarmored, ie not wearing your padded that shares runes
then you are basically down anywhere from 6 to 9 AC

which is absolutely ruinous

[surreal basin]

Yeah that would be the crux of the encounter
Is that you have low AC for a fight

[rapid wagon]

That's what making attacking you at night or when you aren't prepared advantageous to an enemy

[surreal basin]

Like you wouldn’t throw a normal severe encounter a night encounter

[warped orbit]

yeah but to account for that, you'd need to make any encounters for it way easier to compensate

[surreal basin]

Nah I just make it like

A moderate encounter

And then it’s hard

[warped orbit]

because otherwise you will just get crit into oblivion

[surreal basin]

And they gotta be careful

Just don’t really throw a PL+ enemy as a nighttime encounter

But I think it’s a nice shakeup

[warped orbit]

another thing is also that the amount it impacts a character varies massively
mentioned plate wearer is absolutely fucked, a Monk will have no difference at all

[surreal basin]

Mhm

That’s fine by me

[rapid wagon]

Also if you live in a world where you can be not prepared, you might not be min maxed around the assumption that you will always have your armor on so you might not have 0 dex

[warped orbit]

yeah I take the opposite stance
I think stuff like that just doesn't really work in PF2 with the way the math shakes out rn

[surreal basin]

Again it’s important to note that this is like…. A once or twice an encounter experience that also like

Rewards preparedness

Alarm and like, private sanctum negate this risk

[rapid wagon]

Or mitigate it at least

[surreal basin]

I disagree with the notion that every fight needs to have the players in like

“Ideal” conditions

[rapid wagon]

Investing in your security can pay off or it can punish you

[warped orbit]

putting on heavy takes like 10 minutes
how is an Alarm gonna help you with that?

[rapid wagon]

And if you don't invest in security, some classes are more prepared to react than others

[warped orbit]

I just don't think it's that interesting
especially when some parties might not experience any difference at all

[surreal basin]

I mean presumably shit doesn’t just dead sprint out of the forest at your camp so ideally alarm would narratively give you time

[rapid wagon]

It's like if you are exploring in a terrain that a Ranger invested into. The guy who didn't won't be as good as the Ranger at scouting or traversing the space

[warped orbit]

it mostly just screws over people in heavy and medium armor

[surreal basin]

Idk, I get where you’re coming from but also

It’s fine to screw over your players lightly on occasion

Again, I’d be kinda mad if it was like

A severe encounter with a PL+3 guy

[rapid wagon]

Narratively the plate comes with padded armor by default

[surreal basin]

But it’s common sense to

Not

Do that

[rapid wagon]

Which is much easier to put on

[warped orbit]

though ultimately this is also easily circumvented I guess
you just buy a wand of instant armor at some point, and you're done

[rapid wagon]

And yeah you're not getting ambushed nightly hopefully, or the guy on watch actually does their job

[surreal basin]

I definitely wouldn’t make this a staple of a campaign though

[warped orbit]

yes, so you don't also lose runes
you're still like -5 AC or so

[surreal basin]

“Sleeping” encounters are conceptually to me like

Max out at happening like thrice in a campaign lol

Not a regular every adventure thing

[warped orbit]

it being infrequent makes investing into stuff to deal with it even more annoying though
because you might not need it at all

[surreal basin]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[rapid wagon]

Sleeping encounters to me are like, a low but existent risk that is mitigated or outright negated by proper precautions

[surreal basin]

That’s just the way of it

Same deal as with like

Underwater supplies

Idk this feels like the wandering monster discussion again where you and I just have wildly different ideas of what is acceptable

[rapid wagon]

Like if you go to sleep in the wild lands and everyone sleeps at the same time with no alarm (magical or physical), no watch, and no shelter, things might go poorly for you

[warped orbit]

underwater stuff can be kept in reserve and used as needed
security stuff needs to be used in advance every time, because you can't know when you need it

[rapid wagon]

You have someone take watch, spend some time securing things etc, because you don't want things to go poorly for you

[surreal basin]

Yeah narratively I’d usually say that if the person on watch notices something they can give people time to get ready

[warped orbit]

I just think that PF2 by focusing on balancing out numbers so much, inherently makes "unfair/unbalanced" stuff way harder to use

[surreal basin]

Right, but I think it’s okay to have an encounter that’s hard like this sometimes

[warped orbit]

how much time though?
a couple seconds? a minute?

[rapid wagon]

I can see where you're coming from, but it would really pull me out of the adventure to wake up fresh and raring to go in full plate armor, or to assume that no place I choose to sleep is ever at risk

[surreal basin]

Narratively enough time to get equipped with your stuff

[rapid wagon]

Part of the adventure, to me, is the existing risk of being caught at a bad time

[warped orbit]

okay but now we are back at my standpoint of you are properly equipped anyway

[sinful gyro]

Normally when giving players a chance to react before a thing happens, I say they get 1 2 or 3 actions

Depending on how well they do

[surreal basin]

Yes because you

Prepared successfully

[warped orbit]

so the whole nighttime encounter thing has basically been circumvented anyway

[surreal basin]

And had watch

[sinful gyro]

Armor takes like 10 mins to put on

[surreal basin]

Yes you circumvent a challenge by doing well

[warped orbit]

I mean having a watch is like... just normal?

[sinful gyro]

Your watch also needs to pass their check etc

[warped orbit]

I don't really count that as any specific prep

[surreal basin]

But there’s checks involved in it

And prep can help with those checks and so on

[warped orbit]

I guess
I just don't really care about all that stuff that much anymore, unless it's specifically a focus of the campaign

[rapid wagon]

Also as far as personal experience, I've enjoyed when my paladin had been put in less than ideal situations due to circumstance. Which may come down to taste and immersion, admittedly

[warped orbit]

I've had too many times of setting up camp and watches and putting a lot of emphasis, only for nothing to happen
and it just wastes a lot of time IMO

[rapid wagon]

But I don't go into the game assuming I'll only ever get into trouble when I'm ready for it, or that I'll only ever encounter an environment when I'm fully prepared for it

[surreal basin]

I mean if it’s a night where nothing happens I’m not USUALLY gonna make them roll perception

And most of my groups aren’t gonna go over the exact thing they do every time as much as just have a routine

[sinful gyro]

In my Kingmaker game, it is prevelant cos you spend a lot of time doing hex travel and stuff. We just quickly say "we make this prep, the watch order is XYZ"

[surreal basin]

Yeah that

[sinful gyro]

But we tend to do like, 1 for every 3 nights sleep or so

[warped orbit]

and especially if it's a random encounter, I just don't really care
especially when it will probably as mentioned need to be easier to account for the fact people might not be ready or debuffed from not being in proper gear

[sinful gyro]

I'd try to make random encounters plot relevant but other than that

[surreal basin]

Again easier is relative

Insofar as like

[rapid wagon]

This is hyperbolic, but it's not like I get to a lake that we'll have to venture into and instead of going "we don't have what we need, let's go to a nearby town and gather gear and change spells to ensure we're ready" and instead walk right in going "glad I'm already always wearing scuba gear with unlimited air"

[surreal basin]

It’d still be like a moderate encounter probably

I want to challenge my players, so it’s built in a way where they might lose

But yes I guess everything works out to not be overwhelmingly against them unless they’ve done a fuck up

But I don’t see how that’s a negative

The challenge is the specific way in which it’s different from normal

[warped orbit]

because you basically took a detour to arrive at a balanced encounter anyway

[surreal basin]

The detour is the point

It’s a different route so to speak

It’s a shakeup

[rapid wagon]

The detour is an element of character play imo

[surreal basin]

I mean not even that like

The Paladin might have to play differently for an encounter!

Maybe some weird niche bullshit they picked up at some point comes into play!

[warped orbit]

I just don't think someone in heavy armor being caught without and then being crit like three times because enemies rolled moderately well is that interesting

[surreal basin]

Okay

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[sinful gyro]

I mean, I enjoyed it 😛

[surreal basin]

I’m not gonna convince you of anything so

Uh

I’m down debating this with you

*done

[rapid wagon]

I do also think, tactically and mechanically, I feel I shouldn't expect to play the same way in every encounter, as far as my expectations

I'm fully comfortable being caught with my pants down, figuratively, on occasion

[sinful gyro]

I ended up playing a more skirmish roll where I stride, strike stride, or strike, stride away, do a 3rd action

[surreal basin]

Also for what it’s worth

Paizo has nightime encounters in APs on occasion
And stuff like watches exist in the rules

So presumably regardless of our feelings on it, it’s intended to at least be possible

[warped orbit]

I guess you just always buy a wand of Instant Armor, just in case you might ever need it
and then you're done with that

[rapid wagon]

I guess also to my original point, RAW seems to support the expectation from a game perspective, that you will take the time to do these things and spend time doing preparations or buying solutions and so on

[surreal basin]

If you would like

[rapid wagon]

Rather than the expectation that you'll just be ready

[surreal basin]

It’s also like

The chances of it happening in a campaign that’s never in the wilderness or always sleeps in shelter are very low

So at that point you can probably just not worry about it

[sinful gyro]

Ye it's only really relevant in games that have a lot of outdoor camping

[surreal basin]

It’s mostly a traveling thing or “the players decided to rest in the dangerous dungeon which should obviously carry risk”

[warped orbit]

my big gripe is mainly with Comfort armor personally
because it has -1 AC

and that just really annoys me

[surreal basin]

I will definitely admit that comfort is fucking weird as a trait

[rapid wagon]

As far as in game, I actually purchased (in 1e since we haven't started after converting to 2e yet) an extra set of light armor. It ended up paying off and I very much liked that. Was that the DM being clever or just being more ready being beneficial? Dunno, but it was fun and bought into the scenario and characters which was pretty fun and flavorful

[surreal basin]

Everyone is at least trained in unarmored so you’ll at least have low AC rather than like

Unusable

But

Comfort armor is weird as fuck

[warped orbit]

all heavy armor, or at least Plate and Splint, come with free Padded anyway
so you'll have that regardless

[surreal basin]

This type of encounter also lets me ask about PC pajamas

Yknow funny enoigh this is extremely unlikely to happen in starfinder especially

[rapid wagon]

We're in Carrion Crown, and play out a lot of the travel time between locations; and camping in the shudderwood, even in the warded path, was a frought situation that led to a lot of precautions

[surreal basin]

Without like

Being fucked up and stranded or something

[rapid wagon]

It's harder to get your camp attacked in a space ship in the same way you might at a wilderness camp xD

[sinful gyro]

I do really want to do a starfinder session where the ship they're travelling crash lands

And they gotta scavenge to survive for a bit

Like we got jetpacks and laser rifles and comm units but no food or water

[rapid wagon]

I do also tend not to wear full gear in peaceful towns as my paladin/ champion

Since I think wearing full plate and visored helm too go to the general store or Apothecary is off-putting to most normal villagers or townsfolk

And my guy cares about making a good impression and having people feel safe

[surreal basin]

Reasonable but I couldn’t like

Enforce that per say

[rapid wagon]

It's largely a me thing rather than an enforced one, though I think contextual negatives for showing up in peaceful space girded for war would be something I'd ask about if it came up

Contextual cause it really depends on where you are and the sensibilities of people there

Which as an aside and reference to prior about monks on no armor; I feel like that's one of the premier benefits of a monk is their ability to hide in plain sight a bit

[rapid wagon]

lol i didn't realize soldier gets an action hero subclass

[warped orbit]

Yeah it's tge Auto Fire focused one

[rapid wagon]

kinda like the erudite warrior too; just standing there, being scary

[warped orbit]

Wait until you see that Operative gets 360 No Scope 😛

[rapid wagon]

i gotta go look lol

from what i see of soldier, i like what its got going on

and you can still build a melee warrior, but its not the same as a fighter

which is neat

well

can build a soldier who can do melee

doshko vesk can still go 100% soldier

[surreal basin]

erudite warrior seems like a fun character to play

[rapid wagon]

i actually like a lot of soldier because its what i imagine a tank to be

not only tough and protected

but its got a cannon too

id be very split between solarion and soldier for my own personal starfinder character

[rapid wagon]

Kasatha seem like a good candidate for a close quarters soldier

two two handed weapons

[limber comet]

I really wonder how they're gonna handle the cantina in sf2e going forward

[rapid wagon]

hmm?

[limber comet]

Uh like

The cantina is a term for like

The selection of playable aliens

It's a reference to the cantina scene in Star Wars

[sinful gyro]

They're going 1 ancestry per book iirc

And the galaxy guide will have several

They want to add a bunch

[rapid wagon]

thats got layers to it lol, in that a cantina is jus a place, the term references the place, but references the entities in that place

[limber comet]

Yeah sorry it's not the best phrasing

I really want the squids from the Veskarium and SROs

[rapid wagon]

i wonder if they'll add any of hte big ones

like the dragons or space moth/butterfly people

[sinful gyro]

We do have squids tbf

But yeah I think we'll get a lot of them

[clever cobalt]

SRO my beloved

[limber comet]

Barathu aren't the same

[clever cobalt]

Just got the Order for Tian Xia guide 👀

[warped orbit]

oh nice

[keen raptor]

I'm seriously considering splurging on the new Tian Xia book as well. My current character is a Kitsune and I want to see what they do with it.

I love Kitsune but a lot of their current ancestry feats are mediocre at best.

[rapid wagon]

We get the lore from the book right? The mechanics are online?

[clever cobalt]

I believe so

[keen raptor]

How long it takes depends on the site. Nethys is usually the slowest to update.

[surreal basin]

anchoring actions are so fucking confusing

from witchwarper

i dont get when youre supposed to use these lol

they just... decrease a condition?

[rapid wagon]

Isn't nethys like.... the official site though?

I.e. the one that has to be the most correct online?

[keen raptor]

Most of the ones that have it up quicker are the virtual tabletops, since, well, they kinda need it.

[solar tendon]

theoretically

in practice all it means is that the contributors get free books

but since by street date access to pdfs are possible anyway, foundry and pathbuilder and the like are able to get on things pretty quick

[tough perch]

afaik it's official in the sense that they officially have paizo's blessing to operate

they don't work for paizo or anything

[sinful gyro]

Don't they keep your warp field active without spending an action to do so?

Or is that something else

[tough perch]

they do

the actions all have the anchoring trait, which does that

[limber comet]

Yeah, anchoring trait is a free sustain on your quantum field

[tough perch]

the anchoring actions do feel like a ribbon, though

[surreal basin]

ohhhh okay

so they are just a sustain for your field that also clears conditions

also

[sinful gyro]

I think so?

[surreal basin]

the new occultism legendary and master feats, the akashic ones

really really nice

actually on par with unified theory maybe

just use occultism to recall knowledge on whatever u want

eh it's worse recall knowledge though

mmmm

[rustic cape]

Oh shiiiii I gotta look at those

[surreal basin]

at least it is a feat

[rustic cape]

I have a build that currently takes Consult the Spirits like ... 3 times, out of boredom >_>

[surreal basin]

two casting skills not having legendary feats is like

still unacceptable

[tough perch]

i wonder how hard will it be to remove space stuff from starfinder once it's released, to make a near future campaign

[surreal basin]

not amazingly hard i don't imagine

i mean

[rustic cape]

I think it's gonna be highly variable, from what we've seen so far

[surreal basin]

youll still have laser guns and plasma and random bullshit like that

its still gonna be weird gonzo scifi

[keen raptor]

The rules are fully cross-compatible with PF2E, so it's very adaptable

[tough perch]

i've been playing zzz, and now checking out starfinder, both of these things re-ignite some campaign ideas i've kept for a long while

zzz gives me the aesthetics to pull what i want, and i'm hoping starfinder gives me mechanics i'll jive with to make what i want

or rather, bothfinders

[sinful gyro]

Given the core book won't have spaceship, I think itll be pretty easy

But depends if you could like a Witchwarper as space stuff

[tough perch]

true

witchwarper is fine, to me

[sinful gyro]

I don't think you'll have a problem then tbh

[tough perch]

it's space adjacent, but the flavor is more like quantum weird science than space, necessarily

but i might have to cross out something like hotshot envoy, since no spaceships

[sinful gyro]

Doesn't it work for regular vehicles?

[tough perch]

you're right, it even mentions land cruisers directly

i just remembered "piloting" and thought "spaceships"

i think this is gonna be it

[surreal basin]

Yknow if you eventually wanted to modify spaceship rules

Mad maxx land cruiser stuff could be cool

[warped orbit]

apropos of nothing, I love Doctor's Visitation

it's so good

dashing around the map handing out Battle Medicine as I go

[surreal basin]

It basically MAKES doctor builds good

[warped orbit]

used Doctor's Visitation to Stride up to an ally, BM them
do another Visitation to gain some distance, BM myself
free action DaS, snipe an enemy for my last action

[limber comet]

The pc2 medic art is great tbh

[echo briar]

For my campaign, I need random strangers to choose 1 or 2

[limber comet]

Whew, man

I really wish that sf2e will come up with some generation tables for miscellaneous stuff

Street, business, and band names

Maybe some example foods too

[sage coral]

I think Doctor's Visitation has flourish, so you can only use it once a turn.

[vast burrow]

When's War of Immortals releasing again? September?

[echo briar]

If a Druid tries to talk with a non animal disguised as an animal via animal empathy, would the Druid automatically be able to tell that it’s not a real animal?

[solar tendon]

I'd probably say it's a deception on the part of the disguised

provided they can't like, also speak I guess

but then I suppose that depends if wild empathy is speaking animal languages or animals magically understanding you

in which case like

probably they would be able to understand anyway and not give anything away?

so I don't think it's really something the rules provide the answer to but my take is deception

[echo briar]

What if it can speak, but not any language the Druid knows?

[solar tendon]

I think like

probably a harder deception to convince the druid that it doesn't understand cause it's e.g deaf

type of thing

[clever cobalt]

October

[vast burrow]

Ah gotcha

[rapid wagon]

Foundry question, in the pf2e system, is it possible to create a non-standard ability boost via feat or some such

?

important to another player

[tough perch]

you can always switch to manual

otherwise, a selectable extra ability boost that shows up together with the other ability boosts from class, background, levels, etc

i think is outside of the scope

you might be able to add an untyped bonus to an ability through a rules element

but that isn't going to interact with the whole "beyond +4 you need to do 2 boosts to have an increase"

[rapid wagon]

hmm to change gears cause after some conversion I brought up that flat ability boosts were like candy in 1e, it might need to be reshaped to something more mechanically fitting to the setting

its a boon from Desna after resanctifying a lost temple to desna

and we can keep that flavor

but adjust it to fit the mechanics

my thought was some kind of bonus to something

[tough perch]

there's https://2e.aonprd.com/Deities.aspx?ID=281 some options down there under divine intercession for this kind of thing

if you're unhappy with that, i'd use an item for reference

[rapid wagon]

i think the intercession totally works actually, thank you!

nice and flavorful

and not outside of scope

question

am i supposed to be using the Concecration feature for my Champion?

I see it in pathbuilder but not in archives and not in foundry

not sure where i would check

[warped orbit]

AoN isn't updated for PC2 yet

[rapid wagon]

do you happen to know where i might check?

otherwise i mean

or should i trust the foundry

and it not prompting me to pick a concecration

[warped orbit]

don't know if the Foundry already has everything

but also you are Justice Cause right?

[rapid wagon]

correct

so i figure i get to pick unholy or holy

going by pathbuilder

instead of it being picked for me

i picked iomedae as my deity

ah wait

it might be legacy

nope

for reference

[warped orbit]

hmm
might be the implementation on Foundry is still missing then

[rapid wagon]

hmm ok so something i can look out for later, and keep in mind for now

add the edicts and so on

[warped orbit]

check the Foundry patches in the coming weeks, it might be soon

similar thing happened with Kineticist back then

[rapid wagon]

whats hte practical benefit to having hte holy trait on my attacks?

just for DR related things?>

gotcha thank you

forgot to say

[warped orbit]

it gets more effective against certain unholy foes

that's it mostly

so you'll do more damage against some fiends for example

[rapid wagon]

is that because of like "Vulnerability: Holy X" or some such?

[warped orbit]

yeah

or some things have I think resistance that's circumvented by Holy

the holy tag by itself does nothing, it only has effect if something interacts with it specifically

though being sanctified also in turn opens you up to taking unholy damage from some stuff

basically stuff that used to be evil damage, now tends to be spirit damage that only holy targets take
and vice versa for good damage

[surreal basin]

is te exemplary finishing feature new for swash?

where each subclass gets a special effect tacked onto any finisher

[warped orbit]

nah they had that before

it was mostly really relevant for Braggart

[surreal basin]

Huh wild

Anyway I like that they changed panache

So that you always have the bonus to actions that give you it

Rather than… having the bonus but only when you don’t need it

And they gave the precise strike damage to you all the time so there’s not this weird decision of staying in it or using a finisher

[warped orbit]

yeah the Swash changes are good

Bravado also makes gaining Panache very reliable now

[surreal basin]

It means you get it just for doing the action right

Like regardless of result

?

[warped orbit]

On a failed check, you still get Panache but only until end of next turn

[surreal basin]

I have never banked panache for longer than that so :3

[warped orbit]

Yeah it's almost no downside

[surreal basin]

Also

Did they change how flying blade works?

This feels more viable than it used to be

[warped orbit]

That I don't know

[surreal basin]

… no I’m just silly

Oh wow battledancer doesn’t suck anymore

Enjoy the show is actually okay

[keen raptor]

Has anyone ever ordered a physical copy of a Paizo book? My order was marked shipped on Tuesday, but there's still no tracking info on UPS' end. Should I be worried?

[craggy thunder]

Did they make the feats the same levels as all the other fighting style feats?

Also also, is there a two-handed feat track?

Enough two-handed finesse exists to justify it I feel

[rustic cape]

Did they say it had been shipped, or that they had started the order process? They email you about the first thing, FWIW.

[keen raptor]

Yeah, I got the shipping confirmation on Tuesday and UPS hasn't shown any tracking info since. I looked into it a bit more and it sounds like the tracking info getting screwed up is a common occurrence. A friend of mine said his Tian Xia book arrived with no tracking info at all

[rustic cape]

FWIW I've never had a problem with Paizo shipping

[keen raptor]

UPS is pretty legendary around here for its awfulness

[vast burrow]

After attacking with a Thrown weapon, do you just place it in one of the target's spaces and have to walk over there and Interact to pick it back up to use it again?

[surreal basin]

Yea

There’s the returning rune to fix that

Or the bandolier that can resummon them

[vast burrow]

Gotcha, thanks

[rapid wagon]

RAW does the padded armor and/or gauntlets that come with the plate mail inherit hte runes/investment from the full plate?

or would that mean that when i choose to wear the padded armor about town that its just a plain, unenchanted piece of armor

that goes under my magic plate

ah just found it

i do, sorry for the question and then finding the answer shortly thereafter

[warped orbit]

because I just saw this posed on reddit, I'm curious what people's opinions on it are here

say someone is currently under the effect of Invisibility 2
a fight starts, and they cast Wall of Stone and trap several of the enemies in the wall
would you count this as a hostile action and make the Invisibility end?

[rapid wagon]

when you say in the wall you mean like the wall goes around them

or they are literally in the wall

[echo briar]

I think construction would be considered a hostel action

[warped orbit]

the wall surrounds them

[echo briar]

But I would consider it hostile

[rapid wagon]

i would consider hostile too i think

[warped orbit]

Interesting
I would have immediately said its not

[carmine oyster]

I would consider it hostile, you're dividing them up to make it easier for you to kill them

[keen raptor]

Yeah, RAW says "directly or indirectly" harming someone, and impeding them from fighting properly while your party does the fighting probably counts as "indirectly"

[carmine oyster]

I suppose it depends slightly on intent, if you're casting it on a confused friendly while you go after the source it might not be

[limber comet]

Isn't that archetypes+ lol

[carmine oyster]

But that's an exceptional case

[warped orbit]

Would you consider healing an ally to be a hostile action?
Assuming you're currently in combat

Or casting Heroism on them

[keen raptor]

That's a little murkier but I probably would if it was my table since you're helping them hurt the opponents.

Plus it'd be a tad unbalanced if someone could just spam heals from invisibility without fear of retaliation

[carmine oyster]

Probably yes, anything to aid an ally that's directly in combat with an enemy would count

But that definitely feels murkier, I could be convinced either way

If I were to allow healing, the differencemaker would be enabling allies vs limiting enemies

[keen raptor]

I could probably be convinced to make it a non-hostile action if, maybe you're doing it to try and stop a fight so nobody gets hurt

[rapid wagon]

My baseline would be healing in combat would be hostile, heading out of combat not so

I would think it outside if scope to expect to stay invisible after isolating your opponents in a box and healing their opponents to full

[rapid wagon]

would yall rule that a shield sconce can accept a glow rod the same as a torch but without the chance to turn off?

[limber comet]

Hm

I'm really curious on how Zon-Shelyn being a thing will affect Velstracs

[surreal basin]

My opinion on invisibility is that the spirit of the thing is that it breaks once you do something that contributes towards a fight, mostly

[solar tendon]

mm

[surreal basin]

?

[solar tendon]

just agreeing

its a defensive/scouty/run away thing before heightened

well and an ambush thing which is useful as well

[surreal basin]

Ah okay

[echo briar]

An idea for starfinder, what if simple and martial weapons where the same power, but simple weapons where mostly just damage and range, while the complex stuff was reserved for martial

Unlike pathfinder, everyone is expected to use a gun, and it would make simple weapons actually matter

I’m kinda thinking that it’s like the difference between GMS weapons and license weapons

[trail nova]

1e kind of had that, but it was "pistols are simple, rifles are martials."

[tough perch]

i jive more with that tbh

but that said, simple guns already have enough damage to matter

[trail nova]

(1e's pistols also sucked without investment. Makes me kind of sad to see how spotty the martial weapon list is.)

[tough perch]

like i get the sense that that is more or less the case

most martial ranged weapons have like area or automatic

[trail nova]

You either were an operative, used double tap, or spent the feats on Long arms.

[surreal basin]

Any starfinder weapon list rn is complete

It’s a playtest

Iirc

[tough perch]

but that was 1e, d6 pistols seem pretty good in 2e

feels like if you are going to be a shooty guy first you'd take some kind of 2h rifle

[surreal basin]

Yeah the starfinder guns seem good to me tbh

[tough perch]

but if you want to do something else as your main thing, having a d6 pistol feels good enough

[surreal basin]

Even simple ranged weapons in 2e seem okay

At least usable

[tough perch]

add in a couple one handed options that are either martial or advanced, in case somebody wants to play a revolver wielder or something

[surreal basin]

We’re also gonna get gear over time too is important to remember

Like on different books

They can’t put every possible gun in the core book :3

[tough perch]

for sure, i think they nailed the philosophy around guns

like, the spirit is great

theres some details here and there

to me the sorest thing right now is lack of shotguns

but lack of stuff just needs more stuff

[echo briar]

Give us gun building rules and they can

[vast burrow]

When abilities let you rest but remain alert/not sleep (Undead Benefits, Constructed Body, Nourishing Gate, etc.) do you still need to take your armor off?

The Resting rules specifically call out sleeping rather than resting in general but I'm not sure if "You can 'sleep' with armor on" is supposed to be an intended benefit or not

[rapid wagon]

so a soldier played in pf2 would have very few auto fire options available; but I imagine going erudite or close quarters, you could make do without them pretty much, no?

[novel merlin]

It would have zero auto fire options lol

Isn't solider' whole thing using its legendary class DC for stuff that's pretty much unique to starfinder?

[eager mountain]

suposedly, tho remember still not finished yet

[novel merlin]

I was talking about it in the context of using a soldier in pathfinder in it's current state

[rustic cape]

Soldier having legendary class DC and legendary armor prof is rad

[vital kiln]

...I feel Android might be just a tad busted

That is an insane stat spread for level 1, Jesus Christ

[turbid dagger]

Slinger with 2 str 2 dex 😰

[vital kiln]

I can't raise my STR any higher than +2 and I'd feel weird having my DEX be higher, even if it's my main stat

[solar tendon]

that just isn't how pf2e works unfortunately

[turbid dagger]

Gunslingers entire thing is that they get +2 to hit

[vital kiln]

...maybe? I'm gonna see if I can shuffle my stats around some

[turbid dagger]

You desperately need dex to be at 4

It is indeed just how PF2e works

[vital kiln]

What, not raising stats for weird reasons?

[solar tendon]

its quite easy to have many positives if you don't have +4 in your key stat regardless of ancestry, but it's not very advisable

[turbid dagger]

Yeah your KAS really really ought to be at cap
Especially with a class where accuracy is its main advantage

[vital kiln]

Well I straight up can't bring it above +3 so I guess I'm just fucked then

[frank crystal]

Why not?

[solar storm]

+3 is ok

[vital kiln]

...or wait no I can, but then STR is going to be at just +1

Which isn't very conductive to being a Drifter

[frank crystal]

Could grab a finesse weapon

[turbid dagger]

Take a fine- yeah

[vital kiln]

I could, but I still would very much like having a weapon that has more than just +1 to damage rolls

I absolutely do not trust the dice to not consistently roll low for my damage

[solar tendon]

it does make a difference

[turbid dagger]

Your decision I suppose but
PF2e is designed with the assumption you're going to charop to an extent, and you are going to feel not having a high dex

[solar tendon]

I mean drifter is kinda like, it may be hard to get damage bonuses but you're getting damage when you reload which no one else does

but nonetheless damage dice only can feel bad

[vital kiln]

Fuck it, I'll get over this weird hangup, stick that +1 WIS into DEX instead

[solar tendon]

I empathise but yeah

it's kinda a false choice in most circumstances

like ironically lowering stats is more in the weird charop territory than just shoving everything blindly?

stuff like dumping casting stats on gish

[turbid dagger]

Theres a lot of flex for secondary stats, but really not much at all for KAS
As in you can do a barbarian that has max str and lots of Cha and do Raging Intimidation stuff, or lots of Wis and do medicine on the side

[solar tendon]

or I think 14 dex vanguard might actually be viable

[keen raptor]

If you're using guns a lot of your damage is going to be from crits anyway, so having higher attack rolls helps with that.

[turbid dagger]

But that Barb better have good str

[solar tendon]

or another i think I like is if a campaign is only in the 1-9 range +3 at level 1 is kinda alright

[keen raptor]

Vanguard is probably the only GS subclass where you can justify not pouring dex into IMO

[vital kiln]

I assume Reborn Soul was a bad idea for a background as well

[solar tendon]

reborn soul is fine

[vital kiln]

...oh wait I could move my free android bonus from constitution to strength

+2 con is perfectly fine right? I remember it's fine for a fighter.

[solar tendon]

it's pretty good tbh

like +3 is giving up having much else and +4 is you are playing kineticist

[vital kiln]

Yeah it's barely any difference, I'll be fine

Should prolly move my +1 INT to WIS too come think of it, the one I get from my 4 free stat boosts

...god I wish drifter was better

[clever cobalt]

Wonder if we'll get any new classes in SF2e

[vital kiln]

It's fine at least, I'm grateful for that

[clever cobalt]

and what they may be, if so

[trail nova]

Beyond just 1e ports?

[clever cobalt]

yeah

[trail nova]

Not sure.

I do hope that mechanic will probably be the strongest “this is just better” of the Starfinder classes over the Inventor, would feel really weird if it wasn’t. (And I think they have to be pretty similar, Inventor was definitely copying Mechanic’s notes)

[turbid dagger]

I want Nanocyte

[sinful gyro]

Tbf I think stuff like Witchwarper is sorta new by absorbing precog

[clever cobalt]

Fair

[clever cobalt]

I want Evolutionist

[turbid dagger]

yeah that seems neat too!
And real talk I feel a 2e Evolutionist may like
Absord Nanocyte in that same way?
Since Evolutionist is 'you have been infused with something Inhuman and you are becoming more That as you get stronger'
With what exactly that inhumanity is depending on subclass

[clever cobalt]

Yeah I can see it

Or Nanocyte just being an Archetype

[vital kiln]

Evolutionist would be cool, yeah

I vaguely hope that at some point in the future we can get a pilot-based class

Piloting starships, driving cars, piloting mechs even

...well, that wouldn't really have enough meat to be a full class, huh

Maybe feats that boost it or something then

[thorny berry]

....huh if we get evolutionist I wonder if that kinda kills shifter

As a possibility I mean

The brave new world of cross compatibility...

[trail nova]

Operative is arguably new as well.

[charred surge]

hay hi hello can i ask a pathfinder question here

(2e if this is only 1e)

[echo briar]

We’re getting envoy and commander, inventor and mechanic. It’s not a death knell

[echo briar]

This channel is for all Paizo games

[keen raptor]

Yep, both editions of PF and SF

You're good

[echo briar]

Even the board games I think, although I’ve never seen anyone talk about them

[keen raptor]

(what I meant to type before I accidentally hit my enter key mid word so sorry for the random ping)

[turbid dagger]

The vast majority of talk here is 2e, you are good

(Though 1e talk is also fine)

[charred surge]

so i had a scheme to play a sentient suit of armor that uses a maniquinn as a body

could i use automoton's integrated armor while having monk stances active?

or does taking that ancestry feat basically prevent me from monking

i wanna use mah feests with great efficiency

[turbid dagger]

You can use a few stances with armor on (stumbling and Gorilla), but your AC will suck permanently if you are actually playing a Monk, as your armor prof will be untrained
I would rec if you wanna be a Str armor puncher you go Fighter or something and take the Martial Artist dedication

OR, with some light refluffing, Animal Barbarian (take Ape Animal, that gives you a 'fist' attack so you can just excise the 'transform into a gorilla man' part and do Angry Punching)

[charred surge]

interestin

i was actually looking at Mountain Stance stuff for ARMORLOCKARMORLOCKARMORLOCK

[keen raptor]

It's a bit strange that that ancestry feat doesn't require or give you Medium armor proficiency

[charred surge]

oh yeah i noticed that

"i was built to be protective but im a fucking wizard"

[turbid dagger]

You could also tale Stone Striker, which gets you a Stance quicker, lets you block attacks with your fists, and eventually makes your unarmed attacks count as multiple different types of metal

[echo briar]

I mean, I’ve seen people IRL who seem untrained in their own bodies

[charred surge]

unrelated i was lookin at giant barb for 2e

am i crazy or does having all the feats for giant barbarian be related to growing in size feel oddly redumdant

like you get an oversize weapon, massive despite your normal stature, cool!

but then you grow so it matches your size...

[warped orbit]

the main upside of getting big is the extra reach

[charred surge]

well sure but id rather have more action intensive power attacks since big weapon big damage

[warped orbit]

you already have the biggest Rage damage

or just go Fighter archetype and pick up Vicious Swing

or Inventor and Megaton, etc

[charred surge]

interesting

[echo briar]

I mean, giant instinct is the designated “get big” subclass not just of the barbarian, but of the whole system so far

[warped orbit]

also when you get Enlarged, your weapons also grows with you
so it will always be oversized still

[rapid wagon]

oh does pf2e has increased damage for larger weapons

and decreased for smallers

[solar storm]

Not like how PF1 does it

But it sorta does IIRC

[novel merlin]

It does through the mechanic of being a giant barb, not directly because of the weapon size

[upbeat ridge]

@sinful gyro did you get any more people for that sf2e game?

[warped orbit]

oversized weapons have no inherent mechanical changes, beyond being heavier
only Giant Barb really makes them relevant

[rapid wagon]

ahh kk

[turbid dagger]

Giant Barb gets bonus damage when wielding an oversized weapon, but that's it yeah

[charred surge]

you literally just get clumsy 1 from weilding it

no upsides or other downsides

giant barbarian gives you +6 damage while raging instead of +2 while wielding it

it becomes +10 and +18 at 11th and 17th level if im right

[sinful gyro]

Yup, all full

[solar tendon]

enlarge also gives you bonus to damage which is kinda a mix of 'strength bonus' and 'weapon bigger'

[upbeat ridge]

Oh, ok. Have fun!

[upbeat ridge]

I’m assuming you found some people on another server

[sinful gyro]

Yeah, sorry

[upbeat ridge]

That’s ok

[sinful gyro]

If I said I'd grant a spot to you, I've forgotten and that's my bad

[upbeat ridge]

You didn’t really

I was uncommitted

[sinful gyro]

I'm probably going to do more in September

[vast burrow]

You think Starfinder 2e is gonna have a different map of the Multiverse, with the current PF2e one just being a Golarion-specific interpretation, or is it gonna be the same?

Actually on that note, did Starfinder and Pathfinder 1e have the same Multiverse maps?

[echo briar]

A party defeats a lich, but doesn’t destroy its soul cage. Do they get xp, and if so, should they get more xp for defeating it without destroying the soul cage again?

[worthy stump]

iirc, Starfinder still used the same Multiverse setup as Pathfinder with the planes and all, just with the addition of the Drift. i didn't look too much into it though, and i don't think it's something they're too focused on exploring

at the very least, the first FTL drives in SF before Driftspace got discovered were the ones that took you through Heaven or Hell to get somewhere faster

[worthy stump]

hmmm. not sure. depends a lot on the circumstances, i'd say. without knowing more, though, i'd just give the standard encounter XP both times. they fought the challenge, they should get the rewards