Pathfinder

[echo briar]

I don’t think exemplars are new, just recently made much, much more common

[clever cobalt]

Aren't they explicity new?

[echo briar]

The ones that have god goo splashed on them yes. But there are other ways to become an exemplar

It would be really weird for this class, and this class alone, to only have one possible backstory

[clever cobalt]

Fair I suppose

still, them being more common seems like a threat to the legitimacy of Razmir

[echo briar]

But yea, there’s likely a 100-1000 times uptick in exemplars

Also, “no one can ever play an exemplar in any AP that takes place before WoI” is not a good business model

[clever cobalt]

mhm

[wooden orbit]

Razmir? Plans? ....Spoilers?

Wondering if a Goloma, or Goloma enclave could be far outside of the Mwangi Expanse. Like say the Verduran Forest. Since I seem to recall their entry in Lost Omens: Mwangi Expanse mentions that there have been Goloma family groups or communal groups that have ventured out of the Expanse, albeit still trying to keep hidden from most societies.

[solar storm]

https://fixupx.com/comatthew6/status/1814808633797931438

[clever cobalt]

He may be related to Spore War in some way

the first book's cover has a Razmiran Priest on it

[warped orbit]

reportedly (aka I saw someone say it on reddit), Eldritch Archer has a feat to free action Reload now after you Eldritch Shot, Cast a Spell with a slot, or activate magical ammo

[turbid dagger]

Huh.....
I mean
Unless Eldritch Archer has gotten overhauled the only weapons it works with are Reload 0 anyway
But the implications........

[warped orbit]

it also works with crossbows now

[turbid dagger]

Oh neat

.......This means Eldritch Archer Thaum is finally possible 👁️
Rotary Bow my beloved

[warped orbit]

would honestly like to see them just add guns to it as well
let Beast Gunner be sad, it has its own stuff going on

[craggy thunder]

I have realized via my attempts at homebrew that in pf2e, unlike 5e, d6 damage is like

worth a shit

a d6 damage dice does not exist as a mark against a weapon in this system lol

[true delta]

Why is that, o wise Rhi?

I'm interested

[craggy thunder]

Weapons' base damage dice mattering less due to runes, in class damage bonuses, etc

[turbid dagger]

I still hesitate to ever pick up a d4 weapon but d6 is fine yeah

[craggy thunder]

It also is the 'base' weapon damage

A lot, if not most, weapons have a d6 damage dice

One of the advantages of a Strength character is the 'base' strength weapon is a d8

A longsword

And I was used to a d8 being the baseline for dex weapons as well, with lower damage dice requiring compensation in the form of other perks, which is what 2e does for stuff like the shortsword

[warped orbit]

d6 is fine for a onehanded weapon at least, if you get some good tags out of the deal

[craggy thunder]

I think what made me realize was fully comparing a pf2e rapier to a 5e rapier

in 5e, the rapier is the 'standard' Dex weapon, due to its damage matching one-handing a longsword

And damage being the only thing matters for weapons in 5e

While for pf2e, something like a shortsword is the standard dex weapon unless one is playing a crit build or a swashbuckler

in which case one is more likely to use a rapier because one is attacking less often and thus doesn't want the shortsword's agile

To distill why I now realize d6 damage dice don't suck ass in 2e to one sentence; weapons with d6 damage dice usually either focus on attacking multiple times a turn and thus compensate for the lower damage with better accuracy via something like Agile, or they're a crit weapon in which case the dice matter less and they have a trait that emphasizes said focus on crits, like Deadly.

[true delta]

Nice, thank you

[frank crystal]

I mean I’d argue the longsword is bad in PF2E but that’s more due to new weapons then it being like, inherently bad for the system

But a d8 with versatile piercing is just worse then a d8 and basically any other tag

[turbid dagger]

Yeah the bastard sword or battle axe is more or less flatly better depending on what exactly you are doing

[warped orbit]

versatile piercing is just kinda overvalued IMO

because piercing specifically has relatively few cases where it's actually beneficial

[turbid dagger]

Slashing and piercing are mostly the same damage type except for a few times where slashing is better

[warped orbit]

yeah

[turbid dagger]

And then there are 3 jellyfish and
Ouroboros
Who are weak to piercing

[warped orbit]

yeah it's mostly bludgeoning that gets around certain resistances like oozes, and slashing triggering some weaknesses like on zombies

[frank crystal]

Isn’t it only like, less then 20 monsters which it matters?

In this game with hundreds?

[warped orbit]

something like that

but piercing is the most common versatile tag for some reason

Versatile S and B are much rarer IME

also because I looked this up a while ago, there are extremely few weapons with access to both S and B

main one I recall is this
https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=292

[frank crystal]

Goddamn fatal d10

This weapon is kinda sick

[warped orbit]

it's pretty good, yeah

[craggy thunder]

I actually made an advanced dwarf sword that was S/B

Uncommon, Deadly D8, Dwarf, Razing, Versatile B

Price 4 gp; Damage 1d6 S; Bulk 1
Hands 1
Type Melee; Category Advanced; Group Sword

These thick, short swords are well adapted for tunnel fighting, as their small size lets them be swung even in the most cramped of dark, dank passageways. A common sidearm for Dwarven sappers or rangers needing to pack compact.

[echo briar]

And just an objectively better pick

A pick is just fatal d10. This also has versatile

[silver geyser]

Well

Pick Crit vs Club Crit.

[craggy thunder]

Okay I think the only concept of turning a soulsborne boss into a pf character that interests me rn is turning Capra Demon into a Giant Barbarian

Because Giant Instinct dual wielder sounds, if I may

Deeply funny

[warped orbit]

it's pretty good

[turbid dagger]

Capra Demon even maps decently well onto the ever-beloved Raw Deeps build of twin falcatta giant barb

[frank crystal]

I wanna build a dual wielder giant barb

[turbid dagger]

Also:
Considering a Repeating Hand Crossbow for Thaum?
Seems solid for Weapon Implement
Probably still want to stick to one strike per turn but most fights will last 3ish rounds, so thats 3 strikes and two implement interrupts if a dude wants to try and roll up on you

[turbid dagger]

They do seem nice
Double Slice is just mean

[frank crystal]

Yah and that + giant barb flat bonus seems so strong

[novel merlin]

Fuse stance getting dropped to 16 in the remaster is so much nicer

[rustic cape]

My gf's been playing a double slice ligneous barb and it's been great to her so far

Being able to just bust out like 40-50 single-target damage every turn at level 5 is not a small thing

Maybe more like 30-50

30-50 wild hog dual wield barbarians

[frank crystal]

jesus

[rustic cape]

I might be overestimating a bit because she's gotten lucky with the crits

But 2d8 greater striking warhammer, +4 strength, +6 rage, gives us 19 average damage per hit before anything else

Since it's double slice if both attacks hit we also get to add that up before resistance

Things go splat

[frank crystal]

its amazing damage either way

[rustic cape]

She also has 90 max HP.

And starts every fight with 9 THP.

And at least presently has at-level-for-a-martial AC

These are not small things.

Barbarian is way stronger than I gave it credit for.

[true delta]

I take it your GF is happy with her TTRPG experience so far? :P

[craggy thunder]

hmm

What class would Regal Ancestor Spirit from ER be?

[turbid dagger]

Animist, based on vibes

[craggy thunder]

Yeah...

[surreal basin]

Yeah or spirit barb

[craggy thunder]

Hmmm

I was thinking caster to round out the current squad (Moonlight Butterfly cleric, Seath magus, Capra barbarian)

But elk spirit barb sounds fun

Red Wolf would make a fun magus too

with Awakened Animal

Would Rykard be a Champ...

[vapid skiff]

I just wanted to pop in and make note that this thread has 53k posts

Must really like your pathfinder

[scenic patio]

So is player core 2 worth getting in pdf?

[solar tendon]

depends what you want out of it I think

[craggy thunder]

I have figured out how to make Rykard

Summoner with an eidolon that's a severely depowered Marilith

[surreal basin]

Yeah that could do

Or beast summoner

Just it a legit snake

Take the wizard archetype

[craggy thunder]

ehh, the snake god feels more demonic in vibe

[surreal basin]

Fair enough

[echo briar]

As in "is it worth saving some money to get the PDF instead of the physical book", "is it worth it if I already have the CRB and APG", or "worth it compared to waiting however long it takes for it to go on nethys"?

[craggy thunder]

Though

Does Primal have enough spells with Evil Juice ™️

[surreal sapphire]

Unrelated as a summoner I have discovered the world's most hilarious stack- Leshy, Plant Eidolon summoner with the Druid archetype of the Leaf Order for a Leshy, being ridden by a Leshy Familiar, riding a Plant Eidolon

[scenic patio]

Time to wait for nythis 😅

[craggy thunder]

Who said pc2 is gonna be added to something tonight?

Was it pathbuilder or aon?

[echo briar]

I wouldn't do it as a time saving measure. I would do it because its much easier to read as a PDF compared to Nethys, and presumably has other information Nethys can not add as its not mechanical.

[solar tendon]

not aon

they just announced howl soon tm

actually howl tomorrow night specifically

[echo briar]

Nethys is adding HotW tonight. No one can add PC2 until the official release on August 1st

[warped orbit]

You might be thinking of Howl being added to AoN today

[echo briar]

They announced it last night, so it is tonight

[craggy thunder]

Ah cool

[solar tendon]

ah

true

timezones

[echo briar]

it could come out at any moment

I could be out now for all we know

[solar tendon]

no wait not timezones just me failing to read numbers

[echo briar]

They have a new data entry person, so hopefully PC2 comes out quicker

Also timeless body gives +2 to all will and fort saves now

That might just be the strongest feat in the game by pure numbers

[clever cobalt]

Really?

Nice

it also makes you immortal right

[echo briar]

yes

[craggy thunder]

Wip of Summoner!Rykard

[warped orbit]

what kinda bonus is it?

[echo briar]

Status

[warped orbit]

ah

[echo briar]

Worse than circumstance, better than item

[warped orbit]

yeah

[craggy thunder]

hmm

Adapting Rykard to Golarion

Would he perhaps worship Algollthus?

damn, no aberration eidolon

[solar storm]

He follows the Blasphemous Snake who wants to Devour the Very Gods

That's Rovagug 2bh

Rough Beast Rykard

and he turns into a huge ass monster

[rustic cape]

She’s played D&D before but yes

[craggy thunder]

I mean I think there's a gap between 'devour the gods' and 'devour Literally Fucking Everything'

Also I think 'devour the gods' is more Rykard's thing in specific

He's serving the serpent, to be sure

He just believes that gods make the best snackrifices

Also 'gods' in Elden Ring feel far more

person-like?

[solar storm]

Gods not outer gods?

[craggy thunder]

more 'extremely powerful Person' than 'almost literally immortal being that works towards grand nigh incomprehensible ends'

Yeah

Like Marika is a god

She is also deeply a person, who I think would be easier to munch than say, Sarenrae

And whose devouring I think would be ultimately less destructive to existence as a whole

I think I'm gonna make him a Beast Summoner

[echo briar]

One of the APs gives the PCs the dancing light cantrip. What remaster spell should I replace it with?

Light is obvious and more generally useful. Illuminate is more thematic, but how useful is it?

[solar storm]

I can see that

[echo briar]

New pirate dedication gives better sudden charge

It’s sudden charge, but you can swing on a rope instead of striding and you deal bonus damage if boats are involved

[limber comet]

Situationally better sudden charge

[echo briar]

I think every combat should have a boat

[solar tendon]

aquatic campaignnnn

[limber comet]

An aquatic ap for 2e would be nice

[solar tendon]

paizo redeem yourself for skulls and shackles pleaseeee

is that lady being hurricane queen a 2e development?

or canonised ap event thing I mean

[worthy stump]

it is, yeah. iirc, the end of that AP usually has a player becoming hurricane king/queen, but they had tessa take up the mantle for the canon

[solar tendon]

yeah so i think a 2e followup to that would be fun

like, the shackles with modern mwangi expanse??? sounds fuckin great

[worthy stump]

has some very interesting potential, yeah

[echo briar]

New starfinder ancestries have been announced

I can’t wait to play James

[surreal basin]

jesus crhsit

alright

i wanna make a unique demivigga

https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=1116

but im not sure what to do with him mechanically

So far his bit is making thralls, being extremely manipulative, and having wiped his identity away

but i want him to have some kinda mechanically unique gimmick

[craggy thunder]

Summoner!Rykard is complete

[solar thorn]

My players just faced ||Urevian|| on floor 7 and the fight was insanely swingy. At the apex he ||cast wall of force to trap the magus with him away from the rest of the team. My plan was to negotiate with the party after he put the Magus down, because he surely would, right? ||
No lol my magus straight up mano v mano'd him with a mirror image cast tanking 3 strikes and then returning the pain with a crit from 50% to dead

https://tenor.com/view/stare-wwe-black-guy-glasses-gif-19558193

[eager mountain]

https://fixupx.com/DoodToon/status/1815235857323827329/photo/1

[light gyro]

a wise man once said, "no, she's crazy and she needs to go down."

[unborn rain]

He was wise but he wasnt wise when he said that.

[rapid wagon]

So, question, we covered earlier that the game apparent expects you to walk into every combat at full hp. What are some ways, as a player, to accurately assess the balance of a combat? Gm doing the conversion to 2e is requesting once we start to give feedback because they're not completely confident that everything is quite balanced and I'm concerned that we won't have a way to properly gauge that.

Should I expect to be left at very low hp after most combats?

[sinful gyro]

Balance wise, the GM has the tools for that, and they're normallypretty good

A few enemies are outliers

IME, yeah you're probably gonna take a good chunk of damage each fight

[rapid wagon]

Ok cool, any other things I should be cognizant of when looking to give feedback?

[sinful gyro]

This is more a general TTRPG thing, but encounters should try and make sure the amount of turns both sides get is equel

If there's 5 of you and 20 enemies, even if the encounter is balanced, it gets boring quick

[rapid wagon]

What might be a sign that the combat is over or under tuned?

[sinful gyro]

Under tuned, probably you wiping the floor without expending any resources (healing potions, spell slots, focus points, hero points etc)

Over tuned, probably frequent player death?

Like death should always be a risk, so 1 or even 2 you can't be sure if it's overtuned

But lots, then yeah it probably is

Obviously thou that's sort of a costly marker cos people have to remake characters and there's a loss of investment etc

[rapid wagon]

i figure the gm will/can be flexible enough that if they're overturned in the early stages, she'll throw us a bone or too

in terms of getting dead players back

[silver geyser]

I will also point out that 1e has a lot of filler fights compared to 2e.

Fights that are there solely because the party needs experience.

[rapid wagon]

hmm got it, how might/should that inform what im looking for as far as feedback for the gm?

mostly I'm just like... want to make sure the feedback I/we give isn't wholly reactive or emotion based even if that kind of feedback is good too

we're pretty much all coming from 1e and are stepping into 2e with a bare modicum of experience (played through book 1 of blood lords as a sort of primer)

[silver geyser]

Which AP are ya doin'?

[rapid wagon]

Carrion Crown converted to 2e largely by hand

thus their request for feedbacj

[silver geyser]

Ahhhh, ok!

Yeah, there's definitely some filler fights there.

How far in are you guys?

[rapid wagon]

i believe we are at the very start of book 4

after we do some travel stuff post finishing broken moon/book 3

noting that this has been an ongoing campaign for a couple years now and not everything has been done perfectly by the book

my paladin has survived through sheer stubbornness, only rolling great when it comes ot surviving, and at least one literal dice miracle (had to roll a 1 on a d4 and a 100 and a d100 roll)

[warped orbit]

was just reminded that due to the new Crossbow Crackshot, the arguably most effective Sniper build is using an arbalest now and ignoring guns

[frank crystal]

What’s the best monk stance for a grappler build?

[warped orbit]

Gorilla can let you save on an Athletics skill item I guess

Clinging Shadows lets you Grapple at reach

[frank crystal]

Oh shit that’s rad

[barren cipher]

you can just use your handwraps anyway right?

[warped orbit]

fist doesn't have maneuver traits, so you don't get potency on maneuvers
just agile

[warped orbit]

otherwise...
Crane gives an AC bonus and defensive reactions later

[frank crystal]

Ok

Also damn, whirling throw throws so goddamn far

[warped orbit]

Illimatable Finisher (One-action)
Traits: Finisher/Fortune/Swashbuckler
Requirement: You are not fatigued.
Your strikes flow endlessly. Step and attempt a single one-action finisher. This Strike gains the bravado trait, possibly replenishing your panache; if you regain panache, you can immediately attempt another finisher as part of this action, ignoring the restriction of using actions with the attack trait after a finisher.
new Swashbuckler capstone it seems
took this from reddit though, so usual grain of salt etc etc

also, Wrestler archetype does get Godbreaker

so Ranger and Fighter Wrestlers rejoice I guess

[vast burrow]

https://youtu.be/Sh9pItIBKkc

Jesus, almost every single feat the Swashbuckler has gives Panache

Now, not only do you not need Panache as much since they decoupled most of the benefits apart from Finishers, you just almost always get Panache by doing anything

Help an ally? Panache. Fail a skill check? Panache. Walk down the street and look down? Believe it or not, Panache

[turbid dagger]

Good 👁️

[vast burrow]

Also wait what??

This was in PC1????

[solar tendon]

I think it's really funny how they killed finesse maneuvers back when and then brought out this sleeper hit

[vast burrow]

You win some you lose some I guess??

Still a shame for Dex warriors tho 😔

[warped orbit]

Yeah

Was just a little hidden in the Athletics section

[vast burrow]

Damn, it was at the very bottom of the page on AoN

[warped orbit]

Yeah

[silver geyser]

I'm not gonna cry for the Dex nerds. 😛

They got their time.

[warped orbit]

I do think finesse maneuvers would be fine honestly

[vast burrow]

Hey, at least we got Dirty Trick now

[solar tendon]

I think there should just be dexterity specific maneuvers

[vast burrow]

(Even though it has Manipulate for some reason)

[solar tendon]

so dex and str play more different

[warped orbit]

Would also be really nice for weapons like the Bladed Scarf

[turbid dagger]

Dex melee has always felt a lil sad to me honestly
Like you get smaller dice, less traits, and less flat damage for.... Marginally higher reflex saves?

[warped orbit]

Yeah

I don't really see the point personally

Unless you're locked into Dex for class reasons

[rotund geode]

Dex melee weapons also tend to get that one tag that reduces MAP more

I forgor the name

[warped orbit]

There are non finesse agile weapons too though

[rotund geode]

Oh really?

Huh

[turbid dagger]

Obv stuff like rogue or swash are good dex melee options but that's because they're great as classes, and just happen to force you into dex

Also notably
You can just take a finesse agile weapon like a short sword and
Use str on it

[frank crystal]

any cool monk NPCs at around 7-9?

[turbid dagger]

Id rec maybe looking at Fist Of The Ruby Phoenix
Some early enemies should fit that range, especially if you apply Weakened

[vast burrow]

WAIT WHAT

Wait huh? So is it still a Level 20 feat?

Since it's normally a Level 20 Monk feat, but archetypes give class feats 2 level later

[echo briar]

level 22 feat, teasing mythic rules

[vast burrow]

We're so back

[frank crystal]

yah thats a good idea

[warped orbit]

still at 20 yes

[vast burrow]

Odd, but I won't question it

[frank crystal]

why is fist of the ruby pheonix not in the sources section of AON?

[solar tendon]

cause it has 3 sources

[turbid dagger]

Yeah you'd be looking for individual books

[frank crystal]

Ohh

What are the books?

[turbid dagger]

Despair On Danger Island is the first book seemingly

[frank crystal]

Huh

Admittedly that gives off a very different vibe then fist of the Ruby pheonix

[turbid dagger]

So, from Monastic Archer Stance:
You can use your other monk feats or monk abilities that normally require unarmed attacks with these bows when attacking within half the first range increment (normally 50 feet for a longbow and 30 feet for a shortbow), so long as the feat or ability doesn't require a single, specific Strike.
Does this mean Metal Strikes would make your arrows count as cold iron and silver?

[warped orbit]

hmmm
not quite sure
I'd say yes probably?

[tough barn]

I think so, which is pretty sick

[barren cipher]

i'm not sure myself, let me think about it

i think it just makes your unarmed attacks cold iron and silver, your bow attacks don't become unarmed or anything

[turbid dagger]

It says that monk feats and monk abilities that normally require unarmed attacks now also count with bows
So my read is that for the purposes of metal strikes, a bow strike within the proper range is now a punch that it can now make into cold iron and silver

[barren cipher]

your automaton eye lasers and leshy seed pods and stuff obviously do

[turbid dagger]

It depends on if metal strikes is a 'monk feat or ability' or like
A passive thing

Its obv not a feat but whats the definition of an ability

[barren cipher]

it's the difference between 'bow attacks are now unarmed strikes' and 'even though bow attacks aren't unarmed strikes, you can still do them'

[rustic cape]

If you consider tripping to be part of the grappler kit, wolf is real good

[frank crystal]

Its close at least

[rustic cape]

Wolf Drag is extremely strong

[frank crystal]

Yah that is super good just on its own

[rustic cape]

“You are prone now, I don’t care about your size or your saves”

[frank crystal]

Get proned

Idiot

[surreal basin]

Monk abilities basically refers to literally anything a monk gets as a class feature iirc

[thorny berry]

agree, though I'd also be fine with finesse maneuvers tbh

though I think my bugbear is like

[turbid dagger]

I think my personal ruling is that yes theyd benefit from metal strikes
Alas the mod I asked for the west march I was asking about this for disagrees and I will abide by their decision

[thorny berry]

non-MAP maneuvers being pretty significantly limited to mental stats

given that the third action problem is kind of a universal thing within the system

dirty trick being available as a dex thing now is definitely pretty cool at least

[turbid dagger]

I dislike that it both:
Has Attack
Has a duration unless you crit
Because while I get it does not have the immunity like Demoralize
It kind of feels like a worse demoralize, with the downsides not making up for its repeatability

[thorny berry]

if demoralize has one million fans I am one of them, if demoralize has one fan etc

feint too

I know wisdom is popularly considered the best mental stat but I much prefer cha tbh

[barren cipher]

charisma's great and all but dumping wisdom is a very hard sell

[thorny berry]

yeah I mean no denying will saves are brutal

but I simply want More Buttons

[barren cipher]

if you could pick where your save bonus came from like in 4e there would only ever be 8 or 18 wisdom characters forever

[turbid dagger]

Yeah its true
I'm the fool who does max str and cha min dex and wis
I want to do More Things I dont care if my dice are bad
God decides when saves happen not me

[rustic cape]

You could even say that Jesus saves

[echo briar]

According to the foundry PF2 project manager there will be a day 0 PC2 errata

[rustic cape]

Oh sick

[echo briar]

Apparently there’s “a lot” of errata, but no exact numbers

[thorny berry]

lol welp

I know people were noticing some obvious mistakes

like champ archetype reaction not working or the confusion over oracle spell slots

[true delta]

So... it'll be smarter to buy a later printing, huh?

[echo briar]

It’s going to take a bit. Did the APG even have one reprinting?

If it did, it was only like 1, a few years in

[surreal basin]

Always is

Every single book they’ve ever put out has needed or gotten major errata

[echo briar]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6vh12?New-and-Revised-Licenses

Infinite will no longer allow OGL content in September

But you can legally sell pathfinder and starfinder merch

[sinful gyro]

Seems alright?

[surreal basin]

Makes sense

[echo briar]

I personally think they should have given publishers more warning that the OGL was going away on infinite, but the idea is fine

But a month and a bit is not a ton of time

[carmine oyster]

Do they usually update the pdfs with errata reasonably promptly?

[sturdy lagoon]

IIRC PDF changes only come with physical printing changes due to how much effort is required to redo layouts, even digital ones

Even slight wording changes can have cascading effects on the layout of a book that size, all with formatting, organization, and art placement requirements

[solar storm]

Not anymore now they do errata on its own schedule

And usually faster

[echo briar]

They do errata on its own schedule, but not the formatting necessary to put it into a PDF

[sinful gyro]

Aon does errata right?

Before it's in print / pdf

[echo briar]

yes

[craggy thunder]

What lesson did we learn?

Don't fuck with wizards who can box

[craggy thunder]

Nah I'd argue he was pretty wise in that instance

Dictators need to catch bullets or fireballs sometimes lmao

Aang

[sturdy lagoon]

For what it is worth, Paizo used to only do errata when they did reprints and could afford to redo the layout. Unfortunately, this also meant many books that weren't worth the cost to re-layout never got errata, ever, unless something went critically wrong. Now they will do errata whenever, but the PDFs and printing aren't guaranteed to follow suit immediately, or, in the case of smaller releases, likely ever.

For instance, the older 2e supplement books have errata to bring them up to speed with the remaster (wherever things have changed), but they will likely never get a new print edition.

[sinful gyro]

Looks like no PC2 errata after all

At least not on release

Sf2e playtest, yeah I'm not surprised that will have errata

[echo briar]

It still could

Nothings been denied yet.

[upbeat ridge]

everyone on reddit is confused over how to take this/what to do lmao

im gonna wait until ruleslawyer does a vid on this to wrap my head around it

[eager mountain]

soooooo

how about all those changes to leadership ?

https://x.com/JasonBulmahn/status/1815475856569172032

Jason Bulmahn, Game Designer (@JasonBulmahn) on X

As of today, I now @Paizo's Director of Games, overseeing all of our new games and game initiatives. This does remove me from the day to day management of the Pathfinder RPG, but it frees up my time to invent brand new games, like Pathfinder Quest!

Twitter · Jul 22, 2024, 7:55 PM

https://x.com/MichaelJSayre1/status/1815484978278646222

Michael J Sayre (@MichaelJSayre1) on X

1/ Excited to announce that I have been promoted to the Director of Rules & Lore at Paizo. I'm happy to be looking forward to and plotting an amazing future with my spectacular team-

Twitter · Jul 22, 2024, 8:32 PM

https://x.com/OnCallGm/status/1815525198176948542

Thurston Hillman (@OnCallGm) on X

Today I accepted the role of Associate Publisher at Paizo. I'll be holding onto the Starfinder creative reins for a short bit longer as we sort out some management on that brand going forward, but I'm really grateful for the opportunity and trust that's been put in me by others.

Twitter · Jul 22, 2024, 11:11 PM

Lead Designer Logan Bonner

Lead Developer James Case

Senior Developer Eleanor Ferron

Senior Designer Jason Keeley

Developer Landon Winkler

Designer Josh Birdsong

Designer Ivis Flanagan```

[clever cobalt]

Nice

I think this is a gfood thing

[vast burrow]

God how I wish Armor Inventor had an ability that let you increase the armor's size

Cuz y'know, mechs

Construct Shell just doesn't feel the same 😔

[eager mountain]

To get a mech you just gotta do construct, make it large and ride it

[vast burrow]

I know, but as I said Construct Shell doesn't hit the same vibes

Lesser Cover is like, alright I guess

But yeah, it's probably the closest I'll get to a mech

[rustic cape]

Kicked upstairs

Nice

[surreal basin]

https://tenor.com/view/evil-defeated-lost-the-evil-is-defeated-kid-gif-5007371

I will never forgive bulman for weapon cords

[silver geyser]

Become Fairy
Get Construct
Get Quick Repair
???
Profit

[vast burrow]

Investigator vid just went live
https://youtu.be/mORNfXG3krw

[vast burrow]

Damn, that was actually pretty short

Apart from the new Pursue a Lead/Devise a Strategem changes that everyone's been talking about, they got a few small changes to existing feats, some 12 feats and that's basically it

[sinful gyro]

Probably for the best

They're already pretty strong afaik

Just a bit mechanically confusing at first

[vast burrow]

Tis what it is I suppose

Now, only Monk left

[sinful gyro]

Monk seems to be the one people are most unhappy with I think?

[vast burrow]

Oh?

[sinful gyro]

With the exception of one of the barb subclasses

[vast burrow]

Fury

[sinful gyro]

But it's also reddit and people are responding to a book they have only heard about second hand so

[warped orbit]

Monk is largely unchanged AFAIK

[sinful gyro]

It's all likely overblown

[vast burrow]

Oh most definitely

Guess we'll just have to wait and see

[warped orbit]

The only Monk gripe I've seen is that Whirling Throw got nerfed

[vast burrow]

Oh yeah right that

I've seen people cry over that yeah

[warped orbit]

Oh Monastic Weaponry is slightly better now , so that's neat I guess

[vast burrow]

And that

Though apparently it's got a few more feats other than just GODBREAKER

[warped orbit]

Eh, I do feel it was kinda unnecessary

The nerf that is

[thorny berry]

thought it was oracle for sure

monk seemed like it... didn't really get changes which is fine because it was in a good place anyway

[sinful gyro]

Maybe I misread stuff

Oracle seems way buffed

[thorny berry]

I am an oracle change skeptic

[warped orbit]

Oracle is I think mostly stronger now
But the mysteries are much less unique

[vast burrow]

It was, but the subclasses(cough battle cough) got kinda sidelined

[warped orbit]

And Battle in particular kinda got gutted

[thorny berry]

I want to see the actual cursebound feats, but the gish build seems kinda dead and a lot of the fun buildcraftiness of feeling like you really have to/get to build around your mystery is gone

[vast burrow]

It also kinda depends on if it's a 3-slot or 4-slot caster

[sinful gyro]

Battle lost heavy armor right?

[vast burrow]

Last I checked people aren't really sure?

[sinful gyro]

But anything else?

[thorny berry]

all curse benefits basically

[warped orbit]

And medium, and martial weapons

[sinful gyro]

Ah more than just that then, fair

[thorny berry]

so armor, the hit/damage bonus to weapons, the fast healing

[warped orbit]

Also their focus spell sucks

[thorny berry]

basically everything that let them do their thing

[surreal basin]

That’s really rough

[vast burrow]

No more innate gish capabilities, now it's all caster

[sinful gyro]

Play a Magus instead I guess

[thorny berry]

at present battle oracle is just another full cater that pops rallying cry at the start of combat

it's warpriest or nothin

[surreal basin]

We are getting a divine gish clsss archetype on WOI

[turbid dagger]

It seems like that probably goes to Oracle, from where I've been
Everyone is miserable that boracle gish is dead mostly

[thorny berry]

and we'll also see how animist's gish build survives playtesting

[surreal basin]

For I wanna say cleric

[vast burrow]

Probably yeah

Warpriest+, less spellcasting more martial iirc

[thorny berry]

(life and ancestor were also ones that I thought had really unique and interesting play patterns that are kinda gone)

[warped orbit]

The focus spell gives you martial weapon prof for one minute but you need to Sustain it. You can free action sustain, bug only if you hit a Strike. It has no other effects or heighten

[turbid dagger]

But I've been keeping in mind that yknow
Oracles that actually just cast spells instead of being weird mutants are probably happy

[surreal basin]

I think battle is an okey price to pay for Oracle not being kinda awful anymore

[thorny berry]

what I don't like about the new direction is that now you're just kind of

[surreal basin]

Most curses were so fucking difficult to use

[thorny berry]

a caster with mostly-the-same choice of strong active abilities across all subclasses

[vast burrow]

They're just regular casters with a curse gimmick attached

[thorny berry]

as opposed to having some really unique engine you have to build around and interact with

[warped orbit]

I do think Oracle is power wise better off, but it did lose a lot of uniqueness
Especially with all cursebound actions shared by two mysteries

[turbid dagger]

Like the battle oracle changes are so maligned because so so many people were making heavy armor battle oracles that loaded up on buff spells and swung a twohander around
Because people looked at the mysteries that Just Casted Spells and probably went to cleric or something instead

[vast burrow]

The mystery benefits gave the subgclasses a bit more personality at least

[surreal basin]

I think each subclass gets a special curse action?

[vast burrow]

Other subclasses can take those as a feat too

[warped orbit]

Like for example, Flame and Tempest have better access to thematic spells now
But they also lost the incentive to actually use those thematic spells

[vast burrow]

They're not technically restricted

[surreal basin]

So like domains

[thorny berry]

and it's like, if you just kinda want to play a four-slot caster with good abilities you weren't hard up for options before

[surreal basin]

That’s fine

Almost every class with subclasses can dip into other ones to an extent

[vast burrow]

Also there's one unique level 1 cursebound ability per two subclasses

Rather than 1 per subclass

[surreal basin]

Casters are least

[warped orbit]

They just get a free level 1 feat basically, and two mysteries share it
For example Battle and Cosmos both get Oracular Warning (what used to be the old Battle focus spell)

[rapid wagon]

guys I'm completely shameless, but For Honor has given me a new character i want to play, a Benkei inspired Sohei; how might I approach this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L68zunK5dQQ
Character reveal vid is link

[vast burrow]

Are we even sure they're 4-slot casters? Last I checked there was confusion whether the chart or the text was wrong

[thorny berry]

pray your dm is using inherent bonus progression instead of runes basically

[turbid dagger]

Yes that

[thorny berry]

clarified yes by dev comment iirc

[warped orbit]

The level 10 cursebound are also shared by two mysteries AFAIK

[turbid dagger]

Or reflavor a shifting rune

[vast burrow]

I see

[vast burrow]

Yup

[warped orbit]

For example Cosmos and Flame both get the fire damage aura

[rapid wagon]

this might be a good solution

[thorny berry]

thousand-blade thesis...

[rapid wagon]

think a fighter? Weapon monk?

barb maybe?

[thorny berry]

ironically not a fighter because they gotta specialize in one weapon type

precision ranger works with pretty much anything

[vast burrow]

I think sacrificing 4-slot for 3-slot and mystery benefits would've been a worthy trade IMO

At least gives them more personality and differentiates them more from Divine Sorcerers

[turbid dagger]

As for class uhhhhhhhh
Fighter dont work due to weapon groups
Monk MIGHT work? Not all of the weapons are represented in the monk weapon pool
The Sohei's weapons are
Yari
Hammer
Kanabo
Kama
Fork
Saw
Wakizashi

[rapid wagon]

maybe a polearm barb or ranger?

flavored shifting rune for various weapons?

[turbid dagger]

Either of those would probably work!

[rapid wagon]

character narrative about like

[barren cipher]

precision ranger is very straightforward for that yeah

[rapid wagon]

being a monk, and collecting 1000 weapons

[thorny berry]

poisoner sucks less now if you want an actual incentive to switch weapons

[barren cipher]

if they're dual wielding sometimes then just pick up dual weapon warrior at 2

[thorny berry]

just grease 'em all up pre-combat

I would also posit that there's a natural synergy with recall knowledge if you're stocking weapons of different damage types and materials

different affixed talismans might also be something? Though I think talisman dabbler is still on the struggle bus

[vast burrow]

Keep in mind that Shifting only works for weapons that use the same amount of hands

[rapid wagon]

oh what about the thaumaturge? Or does he not get nearly enough weapon proficiency

[thorny berry]

they're a bit action economy heavy at baseline

[vast burrow]

Thaumaturges get regular martial non-Fighter proficiency iirc

[rapid wagon]

i could also play with a set of favored weapons like say "2 handed polearms"

and then just collect other weapons

as a character thing

[warped orbit]

Thaum is already pretty action starved

So swapping weapons complicates things

[barren cipher]

hand economy is also pretty rough

[warped orbit]

Also pretty much locked into one handed

[thorny berry]

ironically monk might be good just for their very good action economy if you can fit them all within monk weapons

one-action swap, move, flurry

[turbid dagger]

To be honest I barely understand how theyre gonna make Sohei work in the videogame, doing it in PF seems like a Nightmare

[rapid wagon]

i figure sticking to like the family of two handers with a shifting weapon, and my collection isnt weapons im using frequently

could work

play a strength and con focused weapon monk

or barb

or ranger

[turbid dagger]

Note that there are also one handed spears
So technically speaking you could do thaum and make all your weapons one handed

Breaching Pike or something

[surreal basin]

Tbh I’ve always thought trying to turn normal full casters into Gish was a lost cause so I’m not surprised BO isn’t good lol

I’m under the impression they were only passable before

[thorny berry]

I thought they were cool

[turbid dagger]

Pre-rework Boracle was fine, having one in our SOT game

[thorny berry]

and warpriest certainly seems to do fine

[barren cipher]

you also need to either be a billionaire or run on abp, fundamental rune tattoos or similar

[thorny berry]

the build I'd wanted to play was cavalier so I could squeeze in two-action spells and one-action Bespell Weapon strikes

maybe one-action spells and a full horse charge when feeling spicy

alas

[warped orbit]

That's also the thing
Warpriest got a lot of help in the Remaster, and Warrior Muse as well
So people expected some for Battle too

[turbid dagger]

I'm not looking forward to that 😓
We're trying to decide if we're just gonna use non-rework oracle for SOT or change his class

[thorny berry]

oh yeah I forgot warrior muse also got buffed

and of course wild druids have been good forever

that was my first pf2 character actually

[warped orbit]

And saying "Battle is overall stronger now, you just can't gish" is cold comfort, because the people who were drawn to Battle were mostly people who did want to gish

[solar tendon]

kinda doubt it's stronger if it lost fast healing

[thorny berry]

yeah I liked the old dynamic of full curse being the 'break glass in case of emergency' button

[solar tendon]

or rather like, if it is, if it isn't a way that other classes can't do equally well or better it doesn't matter

cause no other class could do battle oracle

also like, sure maybe it's somethng that's hard to game design but 'you have a curse but you learn to deal with it' is literally the core concept of the oracle

[thorny berry]

I do still wonder how animist gish is gonna survive

iirc the bonuses seemed impressive but like you had to sustain a spell every round

though I know sustaining dance is getting baselined

[surreal basin]

I think battle was just a necessary casualty in the sense that there’s no way they could have kept everything

With how curse works now

Without them just getting a ton of special treatment

[rustic cape]

Battle probably has to be its own class

[surreal basin]

Thankfully divine gish that Ah get its own treatment is comin

*can

With the class archetypes

[thorny berry]

also rip to the spectacle of life oracles just blowing up with healing energy

and the ancestor bonus replacement feat seems.... bad unless I've misunderstood it

it was already kinda not worth it as a round to round passive, seems even less so if it costs an increase in curse to have it for one round

[barren cipher]

bad in general or bad compared to original ancestor oracle

[thorny berry]

I haven't seen the exact text but what people were saying seemed to be that it's basically an increase in cursebound to get the old bonus (including failure chance) for one round? It might have been slightly more forgiving, I think there was a movement option instead of a skill option, but yeah

[turbid dagger]

Its presented as a good thing you have to pay for, so bad compared to original to my understanding

[thorny berry]

ancestor was the weirdest fucking subclass in the game. It certainly wasn't good, but I wanted to believe in the vision of a good version of it.

[surreal basin]

I mean in a manner of speaking you had to pay for the old version as well

Since it was tied to curse

[thorny berry]

okay defintely easier to work around since it's just your next action at least

[surreal basin]

Oracle was def a little too all over the place originally I think

[turbid dagger]

I thought the 'spin the wheel and see what you get' aspect was the downside of the curse

[thorny berry]

though iirc the old version had 4 as 'player's choice'

so it went from 3/4 options enabling some kind of offense bonus to 2/4

but you're less fucked by the 'bad' options

and also the whole thing costs cursebound now

(and you have an additional, separate curse being incremented by cursebound)

kind of a wash at best

[surreal basin]

I think it retains what someone would like about ancestor

Which is presumably gambling

[thorny berry]

and I guess in economic terms it's now fighting for space against other cursebound actions

[warped orbit]

Ancestor curse is also pretty rough now
it's Clumsy=cursebound

[turbid dagger]

You are ticking up curse for nothing other than a spin on the wheel, yeah
Where from my admittedly shaky understanding of pre rework oracle the wheel spin was a secondary consequence of spending your focus points

[thorny berry]

yeah but the above isn't even tied to ancestor lol

[warped orbit]

also true yeah

[thorny berry]

ancestor just kinda has its old focus spells

which

weren't the reason anyone played ancestor

[warped orbit]

also because I forgot to elaborate on this earlier
Tempest got a damage bonus with electric and water spells, incentivizing using those. But it had very bad access to those spells
It now has better access, but also no longer has the damage bonus because mystery benefits are gone
So the whole incentive to actually use themed spells is gone

[thorny berry]

flame still has incendiary aura as a focus spell at least

[rapid wagon]

first go at a sohei vibe https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=820632

did it in like 10 minutes so its pretty rough

but it kinda makes sense

[surreal basin]

How’d the access get better

[warped orbit]

mysteries have granted spells now

one cantrip and three leveled spells

[surreal basin]

Oh! Nice

[rapid wagon]

for if the link didn't work

[thorny berry]

Honestly I think one of the more vexing things with battle oracle is like

If it's not gonna be a gish anymore, why even bother giving it a focus spell that's just a terrible idea to use

[warped orbit]

yeah

[rapid wagon]

so what does gish mean exactly?

[warped orbit]

having a focus spell that is a worse version of a general feat is... something

[surreal basin]

Yeah they probably should’ve just not reprinted it at all

[vast burrow]

Half martial half spellcaster

[rapid wagon]

ahh kk

[vast burrow]

Think Warpriest, Magus, etc.

[solar tendon]

named after githyanki in dnd I think

[surreal basin]

Yeah

[turbid dagger]

Magus is a classic gish
Sword Lightningman

[surreal basin]

Tbh I think magus is the ideal Gish in PF2E

[trail nova]

Still angry 2e Magus took spell strike and not spell combat as the core feature.

[solar tendon]

I feel like the oracle deal is just they broke the class with the focus spell changes and now they don't know what to do

[trail nova]

But that’s me being a Spheres of Power player, so “battlefield control magus” is an actual build.

[warped orbit]

this is kinda neat
though I wish this was earlier than 12th level

[vast burrow]

https://tenor.com/view/discombobulate-sherlock-sherlock-holmes-gif-14388058

[warped orbit]

though I also don't know how often I'd want my Investigator to be in reach of an enemy

[vast burrow]

Often enough to be in Striking distance at least

Unless you're a ranged Investigator

[light gyro]

swings polearm with medical intent

[rapid wagon]

looks like a fair few ways exist to play super unarmed focus without being a monk

[warped orbit]

I am 😛

[warped orbit]

yeah Martial Artist makes it fairly easy

[rapid wagon]

i saw champion gets some good support

for bein a divinely inspired pugilist

[frank crystal]

What are the war cleric changes?

[thorny berry]

back in PC1?

[echo briar]

New way to gain a precise sense. May be the only way https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=3183

[thorny berry]

nothing new with PC2

[frank crystal]

Oh

Right

[warped orbit]

oh what

[thorny berry]

though I think they're supposedly getting a warpriest-ier archetype in the divine book

[frank crystal]

Well I guess what was the changes lol

[warped orbit]

an extra precise sense for a level 10 item?

that seems really strong

precise hearing for the most part negates a lot of invisibility

[frank crystal]

Do we know how starlit sentinel is gonna work yet?

[carmine egret]

I just realized Forensic Medicine Investigator is a way you could play an Igor

[clever cobalt]

Wooo one of my friends is gonna be hosting a SF2e playtest game

[frank crystal]

Rad

What are you thinking of playing?

[clever cobalt]

Operative

[turbid dagger]

I know Awakened Animals can get echolocation 10 feet (all you need baby) like SUPER early on

[clever cobalt]

Remind me, what are the classes and their niche in SF2E again?

[turbid dagger]

https://www.reddit.com/r/starfinder_rpg/comments/vfdgfd/brief_summaries_of_all_the_available_classes/

[clever cobalt]

For 2e I mean

Typo

[sinful gyro]

Soldier, Mystic, Envoy, Solarian, Operative, Witchwarper

Soldier: Weapons guy, focus on explosives and laying down suppressive fire

Mystic: Space Cleric

Envoy: Rogue / Bard

Solarian: Space Jedi

Operative: Sneaky hacker assassin

Witchwarper: Reality warper and telepathic powers

[trail nova]

2e Operative will also probably be the “guy with a combat rifle” class, though Soldier might also have some claim

[rustic cape]

As opposed to non-space jedi? XP

[sinful gyro]

Yes

[craggy thunder]

Man I really haven't liked the direction the Samurai heroes have taken in FH

[turbid dagger]

Okay but having Benkei as the new hero is hype

[craggy thunder]

The concept for Sohei is interesting

My main problem is the voice tbh

It is just

So Anime ™️

[craggy thunder]

Does this mean gish?

[turbid dagger]

We've abandoned realism for a long time now
Shinobi literally has the 'disappear and slash dash behind you quicker than you can notice' thing as his deflect

[craggy thunder]

I'm not saying don't abandon realism, that ship sailed with game launch lol

[sinful gyro]

It's not really a Gish

[turbid dagger]

As I understand it its more like Kineticist

[craggy thunder]

Huh

Interesting

[turbid dagger]

Where you Punch With Magic

[craggy thunder]

I do hope you can do Stab With Magic to some extent with it

Not like

cast spells and strike more like infuse your weapon I guess

[sinful gyro]

You can get a magic sword

One sec

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6v34x?Starfinder-Playtest-Preview-Solarian

No actual rules content in there but it tells you how it works and the vibe

So, what major choice do Second Edition solarians make at level 1? That’d be their solarian arrangement! All solarians have personal beliefs, practices, or training that cause them to gravitate (pun intended) toward a specific aspect of the Cycle, whether that’s gravitons, photons, or balance. This arrangement grants them revelations, which (like in First Edition) are special abilities that interact with the different states of attunement and, in many cases, interact with their targets’ Hit Point totals, enemy positioning, the solarian’s mobility, and so on.````

Imagine like, Paladin oaths but they effect your kineticist aura

It's a bit like mashing those two together

[craggy thunder]

Huh

Sounds cool

Feels... very specific tho?

[sinful gyro]

It's broader than it looks imo

Like, it's sorta about being intuned and one with space and stuff

Like, you've played destiny right?

It's like being Solar, Void or Arc

[craggy thunder]

I did not expect Str key ability score

[craggy thunder]

Ah I see

[sinful gyro]

They are "the muscle"

You are a combat class

I say Jedi cos like, magic sword, sorta space monk oaths / beliefs, being intune with a magical abstract space force

And you're mostly fighting people

But I wouldn't call them spellblades cos it's not about like, infusing your weapons with magic as such

The new attunement thing feels a bit like kineticist to

[craggy thunder]

So Solarian is our main melee class?

[sinful gyro]

Or maybe actually it's more like that new class in the Dead god expansion in pf2e

[craggy thunder]

insomuch as starfinder has one

[sinful gyro]

That like, cycles between various items?

[craggy thunder]

exemplar

[sinful gyro]

Exemplar?

Ye

[trail nova]

Operative had some melee stuff 1e, I think Soldier will as well

[sinful gyro]

It works well as a melee for sure but it's not the only option

[trail nova]

I just really am not looking forward to PF2e spellcasting getting shoved into the system

[sinful gyro]

How so?

[trail nova]

I don’t think the 4 traditions are a good fit, and I also just don’t like how much it centralizes classes around them and prevents them from being good at fighting with other tools

[rapid wagon]

Lets be real here, Samurai start with wearing wooden armor xD

[sinful gyro]

Are they gonna use the same traditions? I guess there's a good chance

[barren cipher]

spellcasting was on a bit of a back seat in starfinder 1 right?

[trail nova]

Explicitly yes, Mystic is a choice between Divine, Primal, and maybe Occult.

[rapid wagon]

you had like 3 main caster classes, i wouldn't have called it backseated in my experience

[sinful gyro]

Fairs

[clever cobalt]

Isn't there a Wuxia country in Tian Xia

Forget the name

[craggy thunder]

uuuuhhh

not Minata

uh

[rapid wagon]

i know in 1e, solarion was a bit more like a union between monk and fighter rather than a proper spellblade like say, a magus; but they had some powers that were not spellcasting

[trail nova]

Spellcasters were less focused on just casting - all had theoretically equal attack bonuses to operatives, biohackers, and drone mechanics, and their spells were more limited

They were similar to 1e magus, bard, inquisitor, ect in terms of spells per day, and spell levels

[warped orbit]

I am pretty interested in Solarian

Since they seem kinda Kineticist adjacency

[craggy thunder]

Lingshen?

[trail nova]

So less that spellcasters were less prominent, just that the spellcasting took up less space in their mechanics, at least by default. You could still build to focus on magic.

[clever cobalt]

Yeah Lingshen I think

[craggy thunder]

Either that or, if you're thinking of where Ruby Phoenix is based, Goka

[trail nova]

But a gun Technomancer or Mystic who avoided offensive spells was very common

[barren cipher]

yeah, i mean compared to any other d20 system, having only three caster classes, six spell levels and (eyeballing it) probably a quarter of the spells in pathfinder 1e, and also they can shoot guns more or less as well as the skill monkey

that seems like a bit of a back seat to me

[thorny berry]

an alternate evolutionary offshoot of pf1e/dnd 3.5's eternal quandary on how to balance full-progression casters

with the answer of 'just don't have them'

[barren cipher]

with that in mind i would be surprised if they ported magic directly from pf2

[trail nova]

Everything I’ve heard indicates they are

[barren cipher]

so there may be hope yet

[trail nova]

I don’t think we’ll get a ton of 4 slot casters (besides maybe witchwarper, who was always more of a caster)

[craggy thunder]

despite enjoying casters very much, this is a very based decision

[thorny berry]

honestly without the bandwidth to completely nuke it and start over like they did with 2e

they weren't wrong

feels like reading up on pre-antibiotics amputation for infections

...probably not coincidental that my preference for 1e half-casters over full casters has carried forward into 2e as a preference for 2-3 slot over 4-slot casters.

Mesmerist...

[trail nova]

It’s so weird to me that 2e was designed without good space for what were arguably Pazio’s best work in class design.

[thorny berry]

Well, we got bounded casters eventually

I suppose they probably weren't a launch feature for 1e either

and it might have made sense to lock down the fundamentals first

[trail nova]

Ehh, it’s really not the same. And Bard was.

[thorny berry]

kinda surprised we haven't seen a single bounded caster past their debut book really

[trail nova]

Ehh, I don’t think the system is that popular.

[thorny berry]

I suppose

[trail nova]

But I can’t name a single non-interesting 6-caster in 1e, and only Summoner was too good, while they had a pretty solid floor.

[silver geyser]

Technically 2/5ths of Medium.

[trail nova]

Right. Medium. Uhh, yeah that was a mistake.

[thorny berry]

😤 if medium has one million fans I am one of them, if-

[silver geyser]

I also like Medium!

I just acknowledge people don't like it as a class.

[trail nova]

I love the concept of Medium. It’s just really painful

[thorny berry]

I was kinda hoping for animist to have that spirit dancer rizz a little more

but swapping spirits doesn't really seem super consequential

[silver geyser]

Medium scratches a fundamental itch that was formative D&D for me

[thorny berry]

beyond just being a less convenient way of accessing focus spells

[trail nova]

The Legendary Games rewrite is somewhat too strong, but it’s basically “what Medium could have been”

[silver geyser]

Which was the Binder.

[trail nova]

https://metzo.miraheze.org/wiki/Legendary_Medium

[thorny berry]

misread that opening sentence as "The Legendary Medium has been reworked to better fulfill the dream of an immensely divisive and adaptable class" and was like yeah I'll bet honestly

now I'm trying to think what goofy 1e archetypes haven't really made it but honestly so many of them were just 'class X that has class Y feature' that got completely eaten by archetypes as a system

(which, y'know: good)

[trail nova]

There was that Rogue that got Spiritualist Phantom abilities

[surreal basin]

summoner was two good but in a way that i think was a flaw in the half-caster system

which was that they made high level spells into lower level spells on half caster lists

so "oh summoner only gets 6th level spells" is misleading, because for everyone else a chunk of those spells are 9th level

*too

[echo briar]

I think the problem with 1/2 casters is that archetypes exist and take their place

[trail nova]

Ehhh. They were more than just “two classes stuck together” with the exception of Warpriest, Skald, and Hunter.

And even those had their own interesting mechanics.

[echo briar]

Well, did those interesting ideas need half casting, or was half casting just a way to make them mechanically strong?

[silver geyser]

As a 3.X successor? They needed the half-casting.

[trail nova]

It also just adds a lot of mechanical depth. And I’d argue there’s a very strong place for casters that very much don’t get to the same heights of magic as full casters but have too much utility and low level shit for wave casters and non-casters.

[warped orbit]

so Red Mantis Assassin apparently now also gives Gang Up and Opportune Backstab

and they have a special Assassin school curriculum for spell access

it's reprinted in Prey for Death

[rustic cape]

I haven’t heard much discussion about the PC2 swashbuckler

Anything interesting? Do they have better dual wielding?

I know they progress their skill for free at least

[barren cipher]

panache is a lot easier to obtain

or, i should say, more reliable

[warped orbit]

yeah Bravado means you can very easily get Panache in most cases

otherwise I don't know if their feats changed that much

they have a cool new capstone, but that's level 20

[rapid wagon]

they were in a decent spot beforehand right?

[warped orbit]

hmmm
it depends

they were very skill check dependent, so actually getting Panache could be difficult sometimes

[barren cipher]

maybe a bit dependent on bleeding finisher too

[solar tendon]

panache incentives were kinda weird

like one of their best abilities was a level 10 feat that gave you 5e style advantage on skill actions if you have panache

which is so much wildly better than ever using your finisher

[rustic cape]

Anything for dual wield?

[warped orbit]

not sure
there is Dual Finisher

but that was there before

oh there is one Swash change I just remembered
Precise Strike now applies all the time, not just when you have Panache

unless that's a misprint somehow

[echo briar]

The main problem with them is that during the playtest, every other class was so bad that by comparison people thought the swashbuckler was good to print

there were a lot of things that were "fine", but really should have been called out and fixed in the playtest. But people were too busy putting out the fires such as "int based, dex to hit, wis to use their main ability" investigator or "no focus cantrip and kinda bad focus spells" witch

There's a reason playtests only have 2 classes in them now. with 4, too many things get overlooked

[novel merlin]

Dual wield swashbuckler still has pretty limited support but it's a viable playstyle. Sword+buckler swash got a nice little boost due to now getting panache when someone crit misses them while they have a buckle raised

[sinful gyro]

Swash also just gets a +1 to all their actions that grant panache iirc

Which is good

[novel merlin]

+2 at level 9

Circumstance bonus too, so quite good

[sinful gyro]

Nice

[vast burrow]

Monk vid
https://youtu.be/oDk1DAhR_lM

Also, indeed, 3 new capstone feats

Ok the other two aren't nearly as cool as Godbreaker, but still

[surreal basin]

Lightning qi is gross

[warped orbit]

it's pretty good

[rustic cape]

Slick

Any changes to Wolf Stance/Wolf Drag?

I ask because I’m building for them

[vast burrow]

Don't think so, if there were they were missed

[rapid wagon]

godbreaker is so anime

its fucking rock lee from naruto

doing lotus

[vast burrow]

Actually, in the advent of Immortal Techniques, is there anything stopping you from using the exact same stance over and over?

Like switching between two stances, I get. But is there anything stopping you from using a stance action while already benefiting from that very stance action?

[clever cobalt]

Is the Level 20 Monk feat from Ages of Ashes still valid

cause that's a pretty good one

[warped orbit]

Not sure
But because of how Master of Many Styles works, you'd wanna switch anyway

[warped orbit]

If it didn't get reprinted changed, yes

[vast burrow]

Which one?

[warped orbit]

And yeah Golden Body is very good

[vast burrow]

Oh yeah Golden Body

The one that's straight up an upgrade to both this and Deadly Strikes

Granted, Deadly Strikes wasn't very good, but still

[clever cobalt]

Golden Body was for a while the only good Level 20 Monk feat

Or at least, it blew the others out of the water

[warped orbit]

Deadly Strikes is also buffed now IIRC
but I forgot how

[vast burrow]

Master of Many Styles doesn't specify that it needs to be a different stance than the one you currently have now

[vast burrow]

It was combined with uhhhhhh, Diamond Fists was it?

One of the other fist augmentation feats

[vast burrow]

Permanent Fast Healing 20 is insane

As long as you survive a fight(or are able to run away) you're basically immortal

[clever cobalt]

Yep

I also heard Timeless Body got buffed

[frank crystal]

So even you’re plaiting a qi monk is it ever really worth it to prioritize wisdom over con?

[barren cipher]

i don't know what the qi spell situation is in remaster but i think you're probably ok to have wisdom as your secondary stat

[surreal basin]

I have never ever allowed golden body

I think it’s way too strong

[thorny berry]

I'm genuinely trying to think, is there anything other than qi blast that uses it?

[barren cipher]

premaster situation: https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?Trait=112

[frank crystal]

Yah that’s kinda what’s getting me thinking

There’s good Qi spells but like

They’re generally ones that just augment your existing good stuff

Idk if there’s many good ones that act like normal spells

[thorny berry]

and at best you're swinging master proficiency on a non-KAS

the 'best' user is probably like

some gish-y caster that's making a pit stop on the way to sixth pillar

[frank crystal]

You think wrong monk’s wrath is worth it?

[surreal basin]

It’s pretty good

[barren cipher]

yeah it seems fine

probably a big help with large groups but even as a third action on single target if you don't mind standing and fighting and you can position away from your friends

[thorny berry]

good Repositioning Spell candidate with the third pillar approach

[turbid dagger]

Master Of Many Styles/Immortal Tech/Prevailing Positions seems like a downright spooky combo

[frank crystal]

Also wait do focus spells count for sixth pillar’s requirements?

[thorny berry]

that's... an interesting question

I would argue that they count

hell even an ancestry cantrip or something should count

like casting a focus spell is still the Cast A Spell activity unless I'm mistaken

[light gyro]

spellstrike crit haste strike crit

134 damage btw

[surreal basin]

Yep

Any ability to cast any spells counts

[vast burrow]

Just checking, you count as a willing creature but not an ally for the purposes of your own effects right?

[surreal basin]

Correct

[vast burrow]

Gotcha, thank you

[clever cobalt]

How do Champions look in the remaster?

[sinful gyro]

Good

It's worth noting they lost a couple things that will come back later

(oaths and litanies)

But you can still use the old ones until then so

Shield paladins seem stronger

Steed paladins now get a flat speed bonus all the time

Blade ones are still good as they were before

[clever cobalt]

Nice

[sinful gyro]

You can buff your aura size to

There's like, broad changes to your damage cos of the removal of alignment but balance wise it all works out the same

[clever cobalt]

Anyways, Kingmaker

still gotta decide on a character for a Friend's kingmaker game

[sinful gyro]

I'm mid kingmaker myself

Got any ideas?

[barren cipher]

i suppose it depends on what sort of king you want to make, if you want a mechanical king go inventor, else probably wizard for the best available crafting checks

[surreal basin]

Is crafting really important in kingmaker?

[echo briar]

How else are you going to make a king?

[sinful gyro]

In seriousness, I've not found it important

[rustic cape]

There is a cooking subsystem that looks fun

[thorny berry]

does steed still have the goofy 'just take beastmaster instead' progression speed

they didn't fix that with druid/ranger right

[warped orbit]

it's at Ranger progression now I believe

[barren cipher]

ranger progression is still a bit questionable

like the only thing that makes it tolerable is hunt prey working really

[solar tendon]

Even ranger id rather just like

Take beastmaster and have a backup

[frank crystal]

Oh yah actually do the old causes still work?

Or have they been reworked to a point where they’re nonfunctional

Like besides the alignment changes

[warped orbit]

Most of the old causes are still there effectively

[sinful gyro]

Yeah a lot of them just got a new name

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[sinful gyro]

Stuff like "exhault" instead of "exhaulted"

[warped orbit]

Justice is Paladin, Obedience is Tyrant, etc
Liberator and Redeemer also basically got reprinted I believe

[clever cobalt]

Gnoll or Lizardfolk Fighter

[eager mountain]

theyve mentioned that they are gonna try to get those in another book

[vast burrow]

Monk Archetype's Flurry of Blows got a 1d4 round cooldown 😭

Meanwhile Champ over here got out fucking unscathed somehow

[warped orbit]

yeah

[thorny berry]

shoulda played monk

though yeah champ archetype getting out is

hm

general armor feat got buffed, didn't it? so arguably the value proposition is lower

[warped orbit]

still unsure about the Flurry change
on the one hand, niche protection and all

but also, was it really that big a deal actually?

[vast burrow]

They didn't seem to think so for the Champion

[warped orbit]

it's not like weapon based Flourishes for two attacks are that hard to get

with the cooldown now, you can basically use Flurry once per fight, maybe twice if you get lucky or it goes a bit longer

[turbid dagger]

I've been told that champ armor prof was changed to be like sentinel

[warped orbit]

it was, yes

[turbid dagger]

Well thats something
Getting the reaction at 6 is still Wild Crazy but

My Monastic Archer Monk sure does not mind

[sinful gyro]

Ye like I said, coming back later

[barren cipher]

champ archetype doesn’t even have a working reaction right now, wouldn’t be surprised if their aura radius gets put in the bin when they get around to fixing it

[vast burrow]

Yeah I noticed that afterwards

10 feet sounds fair I think

[echo briar]

I feel like it would have been a better idea if FoB had monk exclusive upgrades at later levels like the champ reactions do

Because monks needed something other than proficiency’s that no one else could take, and FoB was a good contender

[thorny berry]

one-action double slice do it paizo it'll be a funny prank

[vast burrow]

It's called Flurry Ranger

Speaking of, Godbreaker isn't unique to Monk, which is an L for Monks(Why is it a capstone feat if that's the case) and a W for my free-hand grappler Flurry Ranger

[thorny berry]

I don't think godbreaker is actually very good anyway tbh

like yeah flurry ranger can hit a full-map attack often enough

but hitting three attacks in a row on a target of any significance? I don't like those odds.

[surreal basin]

Any ideas for items, preferably something rare and powerful, that could stave off possession?

[thorny berry]

funnily I could help you if it was 1e because my ongoing campaign character is extremely paranoid of that specific thing ('mind buttressing' armor enchantment)

[surreal basin]

lolol

[echo briar]

After NPC core, do you think Paizo will make another “core” book?

I could see a remastered secrets of magic due to how much of that book doesn’t work any more compared to other books, but I’m not sure that would be a “core” book

[rustic cape]

I could see a PC3 happening

[light gyro]

pathfinder night core

[echo briar]

Core core, the darklands book

[solar tendon]

I think theyd rather get back to their planned products

[vast burrow]

Pathfinder Third Edition Player Core

[echo briar]

Pathfinder core, the behind the scenes book detailing how pathfinder 2e was made

[trail nova]

I could see a book in the same thematic area as secrets of magic that reprints a lot.

[echo briar]

Every non ORC class except the G&G ones all thematically fit into “magic book”

[rustic cape]

How many of those are there at this point? Magus, psychic, what else?

Summoner

Thaumaturge

I mean you could pretty organically do a “secret knowledge” themed book that had those plus Inventor and Gunslinger

[echo briar]

I also kinda like splitting them up, so each book as a few remastered classes, and a few new ones

[surreal basin]

I don’t think any of the other classes really need remasters tbh

And I don’t love the idea of remastering literally every class lol

We’d be in the remaster mines for the next like 4 years

[carmine egret]

Yeah

[surreal basin]

Now I selfishly would love Guns and Gears Core where they just

Try again

On that whole book

[echo briar]

Magus and sorcerer could use like a cleric level of remaster. Not huge changes, but a lot of quality of life that would be weird to do in an errata

Psychic needs something new now that every class has its better refocusing abilities, but that could just be an errata

[clever cobalt]

I still sad my GM banned Kineticists

said they're too powerful

[light gyro]

destroy them with energy beams

[silver geyser]

I banned Kineticist from a campaign once in 1e

Rise of the Runelords after a certain point.

[frank crystal]

Kill them

[warped orbit]

you say that after all you have suffered at the hands of Kineticists Magma 😛

[novel merlin]

In 2e? They're really pretty average

[echo briar]

Depends. Does the GM run 20 encounter days all facing 4+ NPCs?

If so, it’s the best class in the game.

In any other campaign, it’s average

[frank crystal]

ok actually yah nevermind kill all kineticist and trees

[trail nova]

WHY? They're okay at best in 1e.

They just hit bad damage benchmarks without a ton of trouble.

[warped orbit]

🌲

[silver geyser]

Touch AC with those damage scalings against nothing but giants. From the GM side, it was not fun to have "Do you hit?" not be an actual question, combined with the AP giving a lot of room and endless flight being there along with Air's extremely long range.

[barren cipher]

i feel like post-secrets of magic supplements started to lose their way a bit

[silver geyser]

Yes, they may only be only "OK at best"

[barren cipher]

not saying secrets of magic was perfect, poor archetype summoner

[silver geyser]

But it got used in a not-fun, non-interactive way for me as a GM.

[barren cipher]

but dark archives and rage of elements raised an eyebrow or two here and there

[silver geyser]

But yeah. If someone brings in a build that goes "I can hit the enemy from 960 feet away with no penalties constantly, where the rest of the party and also the enemies cannot actively participate," I am 100% in my rights as a GM to say that we're not doing that anymore.

[thorny berry]

rip to my 1e starfinder 2-mile sniper

five years later and I am still salty about my dm going 'yeah okay you have a turn or two before they're in melee with you'

honestly as far as class remasters I hope they just follow through on some of the noises they were making about getting more aggressive with just doing errata

rather than having to wait for like

a whole ass physical product creation and printing

[echo briar]

Really? Those are some of the best books in my opinion

Secrets of magic always felt like the commercially required magic book. RoE and DA felt fresh

[thorny berry]

I'd like thaum to get a bit of a balance/usability pass over implements but otherwise it's still in strong competition for my favorite class

but yeah I dunno about psychic in a post-focus rework world it feels like it needs some more juice

(and I still don't really get the point of unbound step and some of the more melee-focused abilities on a d6 unarmored class)

[rustic cape]

I do have an imaginary weapon psychic in my party in Frozen Flame

He’s pretty solid

[warped orbit]

Imaginary Weapon is clearly for Magus to poach 😛

[thorny berry]

unbound step is probably also pretty excellent for a martial poach tbh

I think I was contemplating that on a fortress shield champion

[warped orbit]

I do think Unbound is a bit weird, mostly because Psychic doesn't really have a way to... actually make use of that much movement

[thorny berry]

yeah, basically

if you really want to play keepaway with long range spells, I guess? Distortion lens might apply to spell attacks but then you're using spell attacks lol

[warped orbit]

Distortion Lens I think has some potential, but its so niche in application

[thorny berry]

like it's such a niche ability to begin with

but then it's only ten feet at low levels AND it's sustained