Pathfinder

[surreal basin]

Does anyone know if it would be acceptable to have a decay themed character in wardens of wildwood? I know there are decay related options in the ap but it seems like they might be related to villains?

[turbid dagger]

Considering there's a whole barbarian instinct it'd be weird if they didn't expect you to play it therein

[surreal basin]

Fair enough I guess

[surreal basin]

Speaking of

Oh wow the feral child background uh

Isn’t good!

Only one ability boost is really rough

[worthy stump]

it sure is not great, yeah

[solar tendon]

could be worse

theres magical experiment before kineticist was added

[pastel bane]

Should my Dhampir Thaumaturge take up Eldritch Reasercher/Loremaster/Pactbinder/Ritualist/Scrollmaster as an Archetype or No?

Might take Scroll Trickster

I’m trying to go for a Scroll and Ritual based build that is a pseudo-caster

[barren cipher]

scroll trickster is pretty bad

you can just do scroll thaum and call it a day

[turbid dagger]

The scroll cache line seems quite good in conjunction with scroll thaum

[frank crystal]

Is there a plane of air in Golarion?

Because I remember reading in the elementals book air as an element exists as the facilitator of the cycle and not in the cycle itself

[unborn rain]

yeah there's a plane for all 6 of the elements

Should be more info on it in rage of elements if you have access

[rustic cape]

IIRC that’s one traditional view, where the other is that wood and metal are not proper elements

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[clever cobalt]

So should this thread cover Starfinder as well?

Given how the Playtest is soon

(I mean it already sorta does but)

[light gyro]

if someone feels strong enough about it they can make another thread. for now i couldnt imagine there'd be a lot of conversation until the playtest drops

[echo briar]

I think starfinder 2e is going to be much, much easier than Pathfinder 2e.

All you need to do to find a star is to go outside at literally any time of day. You need a whole map to find a path

[sinful gyro]

I think we should do Starfinder 2e stuff here to

Cos the two will be heavily related, the people interested will be the same, etc

And it's not like this place is so busy we'd need to seperate off another thread imo

[frank crystal]

And we already use this thread to talk about starfinder 1e

We’d probably want to rename it though to clarify any of Paizo’s games are ok to talk about here

Or at least their Finder game

Idk if Paizo has any others

[sinful gyro]

I think @clever cobalt would need to change it's name?

[frank crystal]

I think any mod should be able to do it

Though yah star should also be able to

[sinful gyro]

I can't 😦

But a red name probably to ye

[pastel bane]

I guess just “-Finder”/Paizo Games

[trail nova]

Probably “Pathfinder and Starfinder” for searchabilty

[echo briar]

This is still the place for the Paizo boardgames right? are those big enough to be worth putting in the name?

I have never seen any one talk about elemental stones outside of its announcement blog post

[frank crystal]

What’s a good name for a mask that allows demons to manifest in reality that isn’t demon mask because that’s already an item in the game?

[plucky snow]

Demonkin Visage

[frank crystal]

That’s pretty rad

[solar storm]

I have name perms

If people have clever ideas I’m down

[frank crystal]

Paizofinder

[echo briar]

P(aizo)athfinder

[pastel bane]

The Paizo Pit

[surreal basin]

Tbh I think pathfinder still works

Starfinder is a pathfinder spin off

[frank crystal]

What do yall think would be a good way to give a creature a sorta soul sucking attack?

[barren cipher]

drained seems straightforward

[frank crystal]

probably but I just made a boss built around drained

I dont wanna retread those grounds so immediatly

[barren cipher]

uh you could suck their soul out, making them incorporeal and leaving their body to flop over on the floor

preventing them from fighting in the corporeal world but maybe they can do some other interactions instead

[frank crystal]

Oh that would be cool

[barren cipher]

you can try to get back into your body or you can resolve the choir of the damned hazard or something

[surreal basin]

A guy got in put into the door maze

this got made

[fossil temple]

https://fixupx.com/yashiro_manabu/status/1811065267612700892 Finally
A Manga to use as a reference to make your very own Adventurer Wheelchair Fighter

[frank crystal]

I forget, is the kineticist affected by anti magic effects?

Stuff like an anti magic field?

[sinful gyro]

I think so?

Cos it counts as a magical effect?

[solar storm]

Yes the “Primal” tag on all the kineticist stuff makes them magical effects which are suppressed in an AM field or similar

[frank crystal]

Ah ok sweet

My players might be trapped in an anti magic vault soon and I was worried having an earth kineticist would make it way to easy to escape

Just, earth kinesis a hole in the wall

[warped orbit]

impulses are treated as spells for effects that would prevent spellcasting like AMF

[frank crystal]

Sweet

[spring beacon]

I think of playing wrath runelord no remaster in our game

Any tips?

[frank crystal]

whats a harrowkin?

the lore on AON is vague

[dull egret]

from what I can tell they only came into existence for the source AP listed on the AoN page

so there really, isn't a lot more lore on it outside of that book from what I can gather

not even a wiki entry

[frank crystal]

ah ok

[limber comet]

I can go fishing for it

Brb

There is basically no lore

[frank crystal]

Fug

[limber comet]

It's literally just "harrowkin are born when a harrow deck is steeped in powerful magic"

[dull egret]

a literal "A Wizard Did It"

[frank crystal]

Me, gods strongest wizard, giving sentience to my favorite deck of cards

[rapid wagon]

Question, im converting a character to 2e, a paladin, but thats less relevant. The question i have is, how would i convert a +1 Keen Longsword into PF2e

The same with a +1 Shield?

[warped orbit]

Keen is still a property rune, but it is much higher level so probably not an option

the shield you just get a Sturdy Shield

but also due to how crits work now, Keen as a whole is less important IMO
it only really expands your crit range in Pl+ fights now

[rapid wagon]

hmm, recommendation for a similar item? I'm level 8

[warped orbit]

Well I suppose what are you looking for from it?
Also something crit fish focused?

[rapid wagon]

hmm

honestly im not totally sure if i was looking for something, we sort of fished it out of a well

so i guess it could be anything...

but if we wanted to retain narrative, it was the chosen weapon of the warden of a maximum security prison

[warped orbit]

Hmm, I'll check in level property runes and magic items

[turbid dagger]

I recall a rune that enhances crit spec but forget the name

[warped orbit]

Grievous

[turbid dagger]

Hm, it's level 9 but is close to the original vibe of 'sword of good at crits'

[warped orbit]

a Rooting rune could also be an option to go with the prison warden thing?
and just flavor it as chains or something instead of roots

[barren cipher]

yeah just level appropriate from the wealth tables probably the way forward

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2662

[warped orbit]

other possibility is also just getting a +2 potency rune a little early

since +2 is at 10

should be +1 Striking either way though of course

[barren cipher]

i'd do authorised actually

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1864

and have figured out a way to steal it

[rapid wagon]

hmm hmm ok

authorized seems neat

[barren cipher]

it's pretty much fluff really but dropping 1k on a +2 striking weapon and having 100g left over is probably not worth it

[rapid wagon]

question, does anything stop you from wielding a crossbow while having a buckler

[barren cipher]

actually using it will be a struggle but not just wearing it

[upbeat ridge]

Does anything else in champion other than diefic weapon require you to use your diety’s favored weapon

[barren cipher]

no, you can do whatever

[upbeat ridge]

Ok

[rapid wagon]

do yall recommend doing a full rebuild of a character transferring over from 1e or just trying to match as best as possible?

[turbid dagger]

I don't think there's any one answer, do as you like
When possible id personally trend towards trying to remake the 1e build in 2e

[rustic cape]

My gf's barbarian is complete and she will get her first PF2e session tonight!

(She went with fighter for Free Archetype)

[frank crystal]

Rad

What’s her instinct?

[surreal basin]

Full rebuild imo

[solar storm]

I agree

[surreal basin]

Getting as close as possible in vibes but

There’s a lot of stuff that just doesn’t really work

[rapid wagon]

items included?

[barren cipher]

yes

[surreal basin]

Yeah it’s a very different game

[barren cipher]

like an item that gives you +2 str in 1e is trivial

[rapid wagon]

mmk

[surreal basin]

Are you doing this for an actual game you’re playing that’s moving editions?

[rapid wagon]

correct

[surreal basin]

If so this is more a convo to have with your GM

[barren cipher]

in 2e it’s a top tier item that is the envy of millions

[rapid wagon]

ongoing carrion crown module that's shifting to 2e

[surreal basin]

Yeah your GM needs to decide how to handle that

Not really each player

[rapid wagon]

yeah im just canvasing thoughts on it

im simultaneously asking them about it at hte same time

this isn't a rush we have like a month or so of time to get it all lined out

[barren cipher]

i’d rebuild as close as you can on the new character treasure guidelines, if you have unsatisfying levels of stuff you can just add money i guess but it works pretty well

[rapid wagon]

and like, inevitably it wont be a perfect transition, but i figure shaping out 2e's expectations vs 1e's isn't a bad idea; even if our table reality isn't 1 to 1 with the like gestalt understanding

Yeah thats what i was thinking

itd also be cleaner

i noticed transitioning from paladin to champion, that ill be weaker comparatively, but figure that works better with the expectations of 2e

fewer immunities and so on

[barren cipher]

damage might be a bit down, it’s still ok for paladin champ though

[rapid wagon]

thats ok, im something of a defender

escept for against bosses

[barren cipher]

the damage reduction is dumb strong though

[surreal basin]

Oh yeah so

They’re pretty much different games

Like

I honestly wouldn’t assume literally anything works the same or even really similarly tbh

[rapid wagon]

we're not going in blind, we got to play in book one of blood lords to get a taste

a lot of the DNA is the same imle

[turbid dagger]

Yeah what meant earlier is like
They ARE wholly different rulesets but you can get similar characters concepts goin
A paladin lines up decently with a champion and so on

[rapid wagon]

oh that does remind me, could someone explain to me in simple terms the way rule purchasing and applying works? And would runes be considered magical items for the same of the wealth/level table?

rune*

not rule

do shopowners just have runes

and do i just slam dunk a rune i bought onto a weapon i like?

and/or unscrew it off that weapon when i get a new weapon?

in the early part of blood lords, our champion player found a big scythe with a +1 rune on it, and paid some money to transfer it to their normal sized scythe, but i didn't really gather what happened actually in that process

[surreal basin]

Yes, yes, and yes, although transferring a rune between weapons cost 10% of the runes cost

[rapid wagon]

ok so i have a decent broad grasp on how that works

[surreal basin]

Also you can buy any common item up to a settlements level

[rapid wagon]

are runes within the purview of "a basic village might have these" and does that translate to villagers sometimes having rune'd farm tools?

like will the village guard captain likely have a rune on their sword?

[surreal basin]

Probably not? They’re still quite expensive
Again, depends on the level of the settlement

[rapid wagon]

ok thats fair

thinking about the average hamlet in Ustalav

probably wont

but the trade cities and capital certainly will

[warped orbit]

depends on the level of the settlement exactly, but basic fundamental runes will be available in most places

a +1 potency is only level 2, so it's very easy to craft

[rapid wagon]

i guess most villagers arent even level 1 though

ok so on a longsword i want fancy

at level 8

I should def have a potency rune +1

after that...

weapon striking and then 1 property?

does that make sense?

Currently looking at +1 potency, weapon striking, called

and that would be 3 magic items off my available free ones

[warped orbit]

fundamentals are counted together for determining level IIRC
so a +1 Striking weapon is just one level 4 item

property runes are still separate though

[rapid wagon]

so, taking +1 potency rune and weapon striking is 1 level 4 item

why is that?

i cant seem to find where it says i can treat a striking and potency rune as 1 item

im a bit confused

are the runes not items, but the weapon i get with the runes on them are? For the free items?

[barren cipher]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?Category=37&Subcategory=39

[rapid wagon]

oh ok, so its not that they're free, you could use up those runes to eat up free items from level table, but you shouldn't because there's just a weapon as is that comes with both

at level 4

?

[barren cipher]

that’s it yeah

[rapid wagon]

and then at leevel 10, not for free items, but i could spend 1k to upgrade the potency rune that's on it, to make it a +2 striking

[barren cipher]

the +2 rune is a little cheaper, 935gp

[rapid wagon]

gotcha ok

cool

ty

ok weird specific question, is it possible to get something like the spring loaded sheath? My character has a "boot knife" on hand at most times to keep a dagger

[barren cipher]

there are definitely magical solutions

there are gloves of storing and some talisman i think

there’s nothing mundane that lets you cheat the action cost afaik, there’s this though https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2714

[rapid wagon]

that might be a thing

whats the usual action cost to draw a weapon?

[solar storm]

1

(you can also put something else away with the action)

[rapid wagon]

We might workshop something, gm likes the amount of time and money i took to get a spring loaded sheath xD

but with an action cost of 1

it could just be flavor

its narratively spring loaded

its only really for emergencies anyway

if im romping around with a magic sword

flavor is free no? and that doesn't bother me

[solar storm]

Might be able to refluff/modify Gloves of Storing

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=437

For a spring loaded quick drawing sheathe

[rapid wagon]

on the subject of magic items for a level 8 champions, any general recommendations for what to use my free ones for?

I figure I'll get a +1 Striking Called Longsword, or maybe pacifying. That would eat up 1 level 4 and 1 of whatever property rune i end up picking

leaves me with quite a few choices

[solar storm]

Hear me out

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2592

[rapid wagon]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2333

paladin of iomedae

eye beams of righteousness

2 actions to do 2d6 aoe seems a lil light

[solar storm]

It is but the AC bonus is good

[rapid wagon]

eyebeams also feel neat with my archon's bond from 1e

(yes i took archon's bond despite it being not great, because the flavor fit really well)

just got informed we'll be level 9

not level 8

wee

we're also waiting for the new champion stuff to drop

cause thatll change things for me too

[barren cipher]

yeah i guess that’s only two and a bit weeks

[rapid wagon]

i figure my things to get are magic armor, magic sword

which is 4 items if i get property runes on em too

leaving me a decent amount still

what i have in 1e is +1 Champion's Plate with armor spikes and a +1 Keen Longsword, along with a +1 Shield.

[warped orbit]

Fundamental runes are very important yeah

At your level you should probably also get some +1 Resilient armor

Works similar to weapon fundamental runes fortunately

[rapid wagon]

magic shield seems good too

should eat up most of my budget

[warped orbit]

Yeah if you want to shield block a lot, getting a sturdy shield or a reinforcement rune is important

Though note that magical shields don't generally increase the AC bonus they give, they just get sturdier for blocking

[rapid wagon]

yeah thats fine bby me, is there a way to get shield blocking more often less impactful on my action econ?

[warped orbit]

Hmm, that's mostly down to feats, there are a bunch of Champion feats to help with that

There is also this, but that's slightly too high level still
https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1857

[barren cipher]

just level 4 sturdy rune is probably enough for now

do make sure you have some means of fixing it though

[warped orbit]

Investing in Crafting to repair the shield is good yeag

Or have someone else who can do it for you

[stuck bane]

Question about outlaws of alkenstar || we just got our asses kicked to the moon by bitey the snake in just one turn over one round, is that normal? It one shot my construct companion with a crit, effectively one shot me via poison, took out the champion in two hits (which were its second and third after hitting my construct), and we only got one hit for 9 damage in. We were down one party member but uh. Hard to see how that would’ve made a difference||

[solar storm]

I don't know that specific fight offhand but OoA has some really hard fights early on

It sounds like the normal "Level +2(ish) monster has hot dice for a turn and is scary as hell" scenario to me

So not like bizarre without knowing more just unlikely

[surreal basin]

Yeah

[stuck bane]

Apparently level 5 creature and we’re level 3

[surreal basin]

Critting and then hitting with map twice just sounds unlucky

Yeah that’s not overtuned on the surface but without knowing the stats

What did one person down put you at

[solar storm]

Oh wow can't believe I called the relative level haha

[stuck bane]

We had 3 party members + one construct companion

Damage was apparently 2d8+8

[surreal basin]

Woof yeah only 3 is pretty bad

[turbid dagger]

Oh, the AP may well have been expecting the usual 4 for encounter balance

[stuck bane]

Usually we’re fine with one short

[surreal basin]

What role was the missing fella

Did y’all still have a healer?

[stuck bane]

Barbarian

Only had the champion and potions for mid combat heals

[surreal basin]

Woof yeah that’s non-ideal

[turbid dagger]

Yeah that seems dire comrade 😔

[stuck bane]

But we did the whole of AV without needing much mid combat healing

[surreal basin]

Crazy

[stuck bane]

Well, we managed to talk our way out of it

Had to give the ||snake||’s owner a detailed look at my construct as I put it back together

[solar storm]

That's actually pretty wild AV has its own brutal asf combats

(Minor AV spoilers)

[stuck bane]

They did have to run from ||the voidglutton|| but I telegraphed that they were going into a pretty extreme encounter, so they just ran and came back later

Oh that one they mopped the floor with

[rustic cape]

Late reply, but ligneous (she's a leshy so it's fitting)

Her name is Rootberta

[frank crystal]

neat

[rustic cape]

Speaking of which, session just finished and wow Barbarians are pretty good!

She picked up Double Slice with Free Archetype and uh

It's pretty strong

[barren cipher]

yeah things will just blow up for a while

wood instinct does giant instinct damage right?

[turbid dagger]

Yes
Exchange clumsy 1 for ten speed malus

[rustic cape]

Sudden Charge helps with that

[turbid dagger]

And then you get fast movement and it's just a non issue

[rustic cape]

For fighting options she's got Sudden Charge, Double Slice, and has Raging Intimidation

[echo briar]

You can also just rage after moving.

Movement matters most round 1

[echo briar]

Is there any reason other than "its from a comic" that a unique item has a crafting requirement? https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=1462

[rustic cape]

That would be a lot more attractive if my GM hadn't decided to implement the remaster change where barbs can rage for free when initiative is rolled

[frank crystal]

I think I’m gonna create a clockwork enhanced berserker enemy who dual wields mace multi pistols

Gonna probably give them an 3 action action to make two ranged strikes and two melee strikes

[carmine egret]

See my thought was, stance gimmick where they unload their pistols and then go into melee, reloading as they strike

[frank crystal]

I definitely wanna at least give them a reload on strike action

[fossil garnet]

Wild question for y'all that just popped into my head

So, Tieflings. They are not necesarily born that way, it's possible for them to be born looking like a normal member of their Ancestry, and then developing their tiefling traits later in life, right?

[barren cipher]

the nephilim description doesn't really support it but it also doesn't rule it out, so why not

[limber comet]

I mean

I don't see why not

[clever cobalt]

Actually, this happens in War of Immortals supposedly

The Exemplar Iconic was born human but became a Nephilim after being covered in Fiend Blood

[fossil garnet]

Would it be possible for it to trans your gender as well

[clever cobalt]

Don't see why not

[fossil garnet]

Nice

Accidentally made a trans allegory character before I realised I was trans so I might as well go all in lmao

[fossil garnet]

How is combat handled when all enemies are attacking from stealth and undetected?

[barren cipher]

rolling initiative

[fossil garnet]

Are turns from people who roll higher than the enemies skipped, or do they just... Know that enemies are attacking, even though the enemies beat their Perception?

[barren cipher]

nope, they get their turn as normal

[fossil garnet]

Okay, thank you

[carmine oyster]

The way I've seen their turns interpreted is that they have a gut feeling that something's wrong, so they'll probably Seek and/or pull out a weapon

[echo briar]

Assuming that one side is using stealth and the other is using perception, then if the side using perception rolls higher than the stealth rollers, then they stealth rollers where spotted.

[solar tendon]

Ive ran this

I basically had it like

the enemy was undetected but their adventurer senses were tingling

enemy won initiative so stayed undetected, spent their first turn preparing an attack if they came near

so the first round was just "it's initative but you see no enemies, here's a reminder of the rules for seek"

really enjoyed it

[fossil garnet]

The Avoid Notice Exploration Action explicitly says this is not the case, though?

[solar tendon]

polish vampire means the initiative rolls

[warped orbit]

IIRC if you beat their perception, you start Undetected, otherwise you start Hidden

for Avoid Notice

[solar tendon]

avoid notice lets you roll stealth for iniative, default is perception, you use the initative results to determine hidden/undetected

if perception beats stealth they are observed

hidden vs undetected is just whichever you were before the roll

or if you win perception but you're using an imprecise sense for whatever reason

[warped orbit]

Avoid Notice is as Sneak
and on a failed Sneak you are Hidden

you only become Observed on a crit fail

[solar tendon]

oh yeah it is

interesting

thought it was based on hide

weird place to put it

Also if you have an imprecise sense that the sneaker wouldn't know about

[warped orbit]

That is also true, yeah

[solar tendon]

ie other than sight hearing arguably scent

depending on the creature really

or if they should have a foil senses equivalent

idk if any npcs have foil senses

[echo briar]

I misread this as senses that detect foils, and I now need to make a new elemental.

[solar tendon]

sdfbskjebkfgs

[echo briar]

did you just edit a keysmash?

[solar tendon]

shhhhh

sometimes ppl complain that my keysmashes look like acronyms

so I did another go xP

to make it more random

[rustic cape]

gagabool

[eager mountain]

Gabagool?

[turbid dagger]

I'm in a weird situation in abomvaults
I wanted to anchor each of the PCs in the story with a little side plot thread
And for one, a beastkin bard, we established that ||his dad was Jaul Mezzmin, the werewolf fugitive that did that massacre years back||
But they're very VERY close to going down a level and running right into him, and I realize I haven't really foreshadowed it as much as I wanted too, they've been doing a lot of rests in the dungeon rather than Otari
And I'm worried the beat is gonna be a lil limp 😖

Maybe instead of trying to ward them away he'll let them through as long as they keep their distance
And he can be a mysterious hermit for a while
As neither would recognize the other on sight
Well
||Jaul may but may not reveal that, I'm likely to run him as notably more sympathetic||

The other folks' hooks are going more smoothly
One is looking for her sister, an ||Osprey thief whose had to flee deeper and deeper into the dungeon to survive and who is currently trapped by the Velstrac on the same level as Jaul||
And the duskwalker who ||was killed by Belcorra in their first life|| just ended last session with a lore dump
We also have a rogue who
Uh
Never really got a hook but they seem to be vibin
And there's been a fun little narrative through line where they've been the one ||retracing Otari's steps, a side thread I've enhanced by giving all the Spooky Green Waypoints a Flashback Moment from Otari's perspective||

[rapid wagon]

question, how common is the confused status?

knock sense seems a very fun/funny/flavorful ability

but its utility is directly tied to "does confusion happen semi frequently?"

knock sense being a fighter class feat to nonlethally slap your friends out of confusion

[turbid dagger]

It's not wildly uncommon and when it does show up it's crippling

I personally would not take knock sense as my forever level 4 but it's good as a pick for combat flexibility

[warped orbit]

It really varies

It's not that common IME, but when it does happen it can be pretty bad

[silver geyser]

Yeah, confusion isn't common, but it's devestating when it comes up.

Over in 1e, there was one AP where it happened very often, that being Strange Aeons.

[warped orbit]

Can't imagine why 😛

[silver geyser]

Real weird, ye. 😛

[warped orbit]

I've personally been using Magic Missile/Force Barrage as my anti confusion measure for my allies

Three flat checks tends to do the trick

[worthy stump]

oh, that's a pretty good strat

[rapid wagon]

hmm ok so knock sense isn't terrible

just

maybe

combat flex is nice huh

for those more niche takes

now full transparency, the player is low system literacy and favors playing low complexity, so whatever they take for their combat flex ability will probably be effectively permanent

(im helping a guy build a character, a fighter)

I'll need to give him like a brief on the basics of playing hte character n stuff

but my goals are to make him effective as a frontliner and extremely resilient to help with how he doesn't really want or care about setting up combos or skills

[warped orbit]

Take Blind Fighting then

It's really good

[rapid wagon]

oo ok

and its just passively improving their effectiveness

my plan is just juice con and str, get toughness and probably fast recover for them

[warped orbit]

what kind of weapon do they plan on using?

[rapid wagon]

99% sure its gonna be a dwarven war axe in one hand, possibly a shield because he liked it in the shorter game we played a fighter in

character is a dwarf fighter

thinking enhanced shield, plate armor, magic axe with... probably returning

just because returning lets him have a ranged attack on hand at all times

[rapid wagon]

question, what skills do you need to be able to craft explosives?

and what else does it take to make that happen

[warped orbit]

Crafting

And probably the Alchemical Crafting feat

[rapid wagon]

can it be done w/o alchemical crafting if they are a master in lore explosives and craft?

[barren cipher]

uh, let's see

[worthy stump]

probably? up to the GM in that instance. blackpowder specifically is crafted with alchemy, though, iirc

and if you're a master, a skill feat shouldn't be a big spend

[barren cipher]

explosive mines for example aren't alchemical, they're just gadgets

[worthy stump]

true

[barren cipher]

making explosives from raw material i would expect requires alchemical crafting but you might be able to persuade your gm otherwise

making things that go bang from explosive material i think should be no problem with either lore explosives or crafting

[rapid wagon]

im back actually

how does non alchemist person who wants to craft bombs with the feat alchemical crafting work?

do they need to have an alchemical lab?

or can they do a craft check with alchemists tools?

[barren cipher]

you'd need a lab

[rapid wagon]

huh that seems excessive for someone who like, might have bought some powder, fuses, and casing to make bombs prior and just wants to put together bombs

isnt the mobile lab like... a whole cart you take around with you?

[barren cipher]

yeah it's a 6 bulk workbench

[rapid wagon]

bleh

friend who's looking into this is not enthused by that idea, of needing it for any alchemical creation

might be a situation of GM fiat, skills checks, and associated cost

[barren cipher]

six bulk ain't that much anyway

if they're master in two skills then i assume you're high enough level to trivially afford some magic item that fixes that for you

[rapid wagon]

i think for them its more a bit odd to need to cart around a lab as, in this instance, a ranger who does a lot of wilderness scouting and might know how to make some basic antivenom's/antitoxins as well as like simple bombs

[barren cipher]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=2167

yeah if you want to do that kind of thing in the field i think you're looking at either advanced alchemy or some other route

[rapid wagon]

hmm ok

[barren cipher]

herbalist, fireworks technician, that kind of thing

[trail nova]

Pf 2e alchemy is so disapointing to someone coming from Spheres of Might's Alchemy Sphere

[rapid wagon]

figure since they are a master with lore explosive, master with crafting, could finagle something like a skill check and needing some sort of monetary cost to represent purchased materials or something could work

[barren cipher]

that would probably be best represented with that one line of improvisation feats

[rapid wagon]

cause its interesting that the junk bomb is uncommon, so knowing a bunch about explosives and crafting feels somewhat useless when it comes to the feats needed to literally make bombs

[barren cipher]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5191

but like if you want to interact with the crafting system normally just have a pocket lab and you're fine

[rapid wagon]

oh pocket lab?

[barren cipher]

if you want to pull out fully formed alchemical items from things you've been stuffing in your pockets for the last six weeks, you need advanced alchemy

yeah, like the chair i linked above

just negotiate with your gm to make the problem of the tool go away

[rapid wagon]

yeah that makes sense

Hmm, so if he just wants to be able to make a junk bomb, specifically, do you think it makes sense to use lore explosive and crafting to make it?

hes a bit wary of investing so heavily into alchemy to be able to achieve that goal

[barren cipher]

if you can persuade the gm to make exceptions, sure

investing actual skill increases into a lore skill can be a bit rough though

[rapid wagon]

thats sort of the thing yeah

they're a dwarf who gets the lore explosive from his dwarven hold training

and he feels like that hsould be some kind of relevant

and im somewhat inclined to agree with him (not the GM, just helping him build the character)

[barren cipher]

i think the easiest way to do this is actually to just be a gunslinger and take munitions crafter

[rapid wagon]

Probably so, though that's off the table for em, they're committed to the Ranger concept

The main idea being a Dwarven Ranger trained in the holds who functions as a scout to keep the hold up to date on the goings ons of the world

[barren cipher]

slinger works fine for that

like the things that make a ranger a trad wilderness warrior are not so much in the class and feats as they used to be

a wilderness scout is something you can model in lots of classes just with skill increases, feats, maybe an archetype here or there

[rapid wagon]

oh i agree, i just know that they're set on the class and race pick

i think due in part to feeling like he's pretty much got the character all built out

and was just asking about how he might be able to craft simple bombs

just finding that its apparently much more investment needed than they thought, without gm fiat

question, is 2e like 1e where like types of bonus do not stack?

[barren cipher]

yep

[trail nova]

Also, there are no stacking bonuses

[barren cipher]

there are a rare few untyped increases that do stack

largely in speed, i can't think of anything else off the top of my head

[turbid dagger]

Well, circ item and status stack just fine

Your fighter can indeed use hunters aim with heroism on to crit on an 11 or what have you

[trail nova]

Yeah, but PF 1e had some bonus types like Dodge and Circumstance stack with themselves

[rapid wagon]

so two "foot" bonuses to speed

stack/no stack?

pathbuilder seems to think they would stack

[worthy stump]

foot is not a bonus type

[barren cipher]

yeah fleet and e.g. nimble hooves stack

[worthy stump]

if it doesn't list a type, just says the speed increases, they stack, yeah

[rapid wagon]

kk cool, ty

[solar tendon]

I think there is a thing about ancestry speed bonuses

like iirc nimble hooves and nimble elf don't stack

but idk if that's just nimble hooves thing

maybe it only says it on versatile ancestry feats

[turbid dagger]

Speed boosts also notably state explicitly if and when they don't stack
Like sylphs Swift

Which does not stack with other speed boosts granted by an ancestry

[solar thorn]

Just gotta gush about foundry's PF2e implementation
My lvl 8 team finished 4 fights last night in a 3 hour session

Monster slaughtering efficency of this system and port is unheard of

[turbid dagger]

Foundry is truly a blessing

Especially with the AP modules

[solar thorn]

Abomination Vaults made every other AP port obsolete lmao

[rapid wagon]

you can use something lunge multiple times like strike right

and just incur normal multi attack penalties?

[turbid dagger]

Yep
Look for flourish and press, those will tell you of any weirdness about how often you can use an action

Open too but that's being removed from the rules with the remaster books

[warped orbit]

IIRC you can basically only have one speed increasing ancestry feat at a time, but I believe if only directly says that on the versatile heritages yeah

[clever cobalt]

Just got the order email for PC2 👀

[sinful gyro]

Nice

[turbid dagger]

There are a few ways to sneak by
Like running animal and hunter automaton increase your base speed
While dwarves unburdened iron is essentially an ancestry speed boost but just for heavy armor

[carmine oyster]

(Also only gets you up to the same speed as 25ft base speed races in armor)

Unless you get it from adopted ancestry I suppose

[turbid dagger]

Adopted Dwarf Elf...
Effective 45 base speed...

[barren cipher]

40’ base in heavy armour with a tower shield is pretty good going

[warped orbit]

It's a good combo yeah, if a bit silly

[rapid wagon]

yall think a weapon monk could replicate a samurai? not the samurai class from 1e but just vibes wise

[clever cobalt]

A Fighter works better imo

[turbid dagger]

Indeed, free hand katana fighter works best

Monk only really has temple sword to work with

(two hand fighter with two hands on the katana at all times also works but imo dueling parry and dual handed assault plays better)

[frank crystal]

I do think monk works better for the like, gi only, straw hat wandering ronin vibes though

[turbid dagger]

Yeah- the sad truth is that fantasy isn't really possible without reflavoring somewhere anyhow

[frank crystal]

Yah

I do like precision ranger for it though

Flavor hunters mark as like, an intense focus to finding weakpoints

…which I guess it kinda is already just more nature themed

[turbid dagger]

What I do for 'str martial that just wears clothes' is throw a boost or two dexes way and wear Hide
Which you can flavor more readily into just Reinforced Clothing

[frank crystal]

Yah and like, medium armor is a legitimate build choice for strength martials

[turbid dagger]

That's a Bad Idea for fighter since they wear heavy armor but like, ranger, barb so on works

[frank crystal]

Just because it can be worth it to have lower AC to not be slower

[turbid dagger]

..... katana barb works
Huh
Never thought about that

[frank crystal]

Yah

It’s not a finesse weapon so like

Yah it’s solid

The real question is what’s the best class to play a “samurai who’s lost their katana so they need to duel their rival with nothing but an oar” fantasy

[turbid dagger]

Also barbarian
Greatclub time 😌

[frank crystal]

Musashi is just a past level 20 fighter/monk/barbarian

He’s playing off rules where once he maxes out one class he switches to another to level

[vast burrow]

God I'm so excited for War of Immortals

Can't wait to make one character named John Human the World-Splitting Blade then never touch Mythic rules ever again

[light gyro]

how's alchemist's per-encounter stuff work?

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/shrug-gif-25269231

Idk yet , I dont have a copy

all ive seen

[light gyro]

enter the mind palace to plan your next strike
roll a 3
eyes narrow
"wait... is that...."
"your jordans... they're fake...." [roll bon mot]

[rustic cape]

Wait have people's PC2s started arriving???!!!

[solar tendon]

Someone on Reddit got it

[rustic cape]

Slick

[solar tendon]

companion sizes bother me

like I think the mandated progression is kinda outdated

I don't have a problem with the idea of starting with a young companion inherently but it feels at odds with the modern expected adventure, and how paizo demonstrates with their official modules

cause like, probably most APs there's very little time between level 1 and 4/6

and then it's also really awkward to not start with a large mount if you wanna do that

but then some animals start large anyway so?

and then there's just some weird sizes like I really don't think a fully grown eagle is medium

in fact the official creature stat block for it is small

so then why don't Birds start tiny?

kinda feels like it could even be entirely seperate from species and just make it a thing like awakened animal gets

with the option to change it midgame when you do have a narratively long campaign

also they're keeping 'mature at 6' feats!! why!!!

construct companions do just get to choose their size and they're fine. you just have to be a construct inventor to get large level 1

[carmine egret]

Yeah I think I'm with you

[solar tendon]

vulture is cool

reaction advanced maneuver is pog

air elemental is also cool, I guess cause of the stricter access requirements but its funny that its maneuver is just better bird

or well not strictly, but offensively

[echo briar]

Archer and mauler now let you use advanced weapons with their dedication. We finally have a way to use advanced weapons that isn’t ancestry or fighter based

The fact that it’s only these two categories of weapons is mildly annoying, but the dedications were feat taxes before so it’s not like anything was lost

[rustic cape]

Oh that's very cool!

Does that mean a fighter who takes those dedications can also move advanced weapons onto their faster progression?

[warped orbit]

Presumably

[solar tendon]

I think they mentioned it no longer lets you cheat in fighter's weapon group proficiency

similar to gunslinger

[warped orbit]

Aw, that was like one of the only fun tricks you could do with that dedication

I hope that advanced weapon access is treating them as martial and not just training then

[surreal basin]

Yeah

I’d also like all the ‘weapon’ archetypes to get it, IE also duelist

[warped orbit]

From a comment on reddit, so take with a grain of salt

You still get (a much more limited supply of) your daily free alchemical items. But! You now have a new resource that's kinda like focus spells? It's called "versatile vials", you have a total of 2+Int by default and you regain 2 for every 10 minutes out of combat. They are both your bombs, used for quick alchemy and also used by the other specialisations for other stuff (Mutagenists can drink one to suppress the downside of their active mutagens for 1 round).

[barren cipher]

so you have daily vending machine charges and renewable resources

[vast burrow]

So now you have a more clearly defined separation between Advanced Alchemy and Quick Alchemy? Rather than having to choose each morning how much of one you're gonna need that day

[warped orbit]

Seems so yes

[turbid dagger]

Has anyone seen dragonkin heritage yet
May I See 🥺

[surreal basin]

are people getting the book?

[light gyro]

I'm GMing for a party with a bomber, so I'm curious what versatile vials add to their options

[warped orbit]

Some other stuff I've seen

• Champion dedication now gives armor proficiency like Sentinel, so you only get heavy if you already have medium
• Dirty Trick is a new skill feat, the Rascal Swash works with it. Thievery vs Reflex, has Attack, on success the target is Clumsy 1 for a round or until they Interact to fix it. Kinda Disarm side grade, not sure about it
• basically anything that gave Panache now has Bravado, so Panache gain is much more reliable now

[warped orbit]

People on reddit have apparently

[rustic cape]

I've got a subscription and nothing for me yet but

[surreal basin]

The subscription thing is really weirdly set up

[rustic cape]

I suspect people getting the books early with it is a feature, not a bug

[turbid dagger]

Does dirty trick have Attack

[rustic cape]

Especially since they're distributing books early but not PDFs as early

[surreal basin]

no absolutely

[rustic cape]

It adds a community engagement thing

Everyone crowding around the books a few people have gotten

Getting excited

[surreal basin]

they do some weird stuff with pdfs to not make ti just better than buying from your lgs but i do with these releases were slightly more straightfoward lol

[turbid dagger]

Cuz if so that shit is CRAZY and nearly justifies dex melee fighter by itself

[surreal basin]

its a manuever so

yes

Or its in the same ballpark

[warped orbit]

Yes

[vast burrow]

Ooooh Thievery attack check

[turbid dagger]

It's a skill feat thingy so for all I knew it's in the same ballpark as demoralize and bon mot
Okay then still Neat but not cracked

[warped orbit]

Superstition is now playable lmao

[turbid dagger]

Fighter is still gonna chew people up if they get it on them

[vast burrow]

Oh shit?

[warped orbit]

Anathema now prevents you from learning to cast spells, or using items to cast spells
If you are willingly affected by a spell, become Frightened 1, can't reduce it below 1 while the spell lasts
Slight increase of Rage damage against non casters too now

[frank crystal]

Wait non casters?

I thought it’d hurt casters more

[vast burrow]

It still does

But now it also scales with non-casters too

[frank crystal]

Ohhhhhh

[warped orbit]

Deer and Frog Animal Barb don't get reach anymore

[surreal basin]

yay!

[warped orbit]

The reign of the Deer has ended

But at what cost

[surreal basin]

at absolutely no cost!

[frank crystal]

Also wait frog?

[vast burrow]

The thing I'm really most interested in though are the new Champion causes

[frank crystal]

But that always felt fine

[vast burrow]

The Grandeur one sounds pretty cool

[surreal basin]

if you want reach pick a different tradition and like

[frank crystal]

Like reach was frog’s niche I thought

[surreal basin]

use a polearm

i assume it got some kinda buff
but it was incongrous

[vast burrow]

It's gonna be a long night this one

[surreal basin]

they were the only two attacks of the animal thing to get a trait at 7 for no fucking reason

frog losing it sucks but ill take it

in terms of making the class like

actually consistent

instead of the design equivalent of random bullshit lol

[warped orbit]

I would have preferred the other animals get a little bonus too personally

But it's fine

[surreal basin]

for sure but

i think that would have made animal a little overtuned

I hope fury got touch ups

[frank crystal]

Did they at least raise frog’s tongue to a d6?

Because without reach it’s just worse cat and bear

[surreal basin]

I assume so

[warped orbit]

Only seen a few offhand comments, their reaction apparently inflicts the attacker with Dazzling Light, so Dazzled and downgrade Invis for a round
Their 1st level feat makes them also off guard for that duration

[frank crystal]

Oh yah I forget, are champs causes being completely replaced?

[barren cipher]

apparently synaesthesia has been reprinted unchanged

[surreal basin]

i think it's fine

its an acceptably powerful spell for beinga fifth level single target with no heighten

[trail nova]

Yeah. I think one of the big issues with Incapacitate is that it's too steep a translation that comes up too frequently.

[barren cipher]

yeah, i agree, but it was notably absent from pc1 and people were wondering

[surreal basin]

oh i outright think incap is kinda terribly designed

[trail nova]

So anything close to that edge really shows up

[surreal basin]

"what if this ability was actually unusable except against jobbers"

[warped orbit]

Agile Maneuvers now stacks with regular agile from freehand maneuvers now, could be big for Swash like Gymnast

[surreal basin]

wh

what

[vast burrow]

Sick

[rapid wagon]

is incap still a thing in the remaster?

[surreal basin]

yes

[rapid wagon]

though also jobbers are a semi frequent thing that can be good to be able to incapacitate right?

[barren cipher]

i think it works better at high levels

[trail nova]

too close with the incapacitate tag and it's dog water unless it's AoE, too close without the tag and it's a best in class.

[surreal basin]

I've house ruled incap in my home games to just be "stops you from crit failing"

turning a fail into a success is, imo, unnecessary

a success into a crit success especially is just silly

[barren cipher]

being able to clear six mooks (ancient dragons) with two actions is pretty big honestly

[surreal basin]

yeah but it's highly dependent on the spell

idk

[trail nova]

I think the big issue is that Level+1 is probably the wrong threshold. That's not "1 on 1 boss", that's "elite"

[surreal basin]

i think baseline incap is overtuned

[barren cipher]

do your bosses not just get paralysed and die to low level spell slots?

[surreal basin]

nope

look

a boss encounter enemy has high saves

[trail nova]

(TBF, I think 4e style minion-standard-elite-solo is the better way. Also solves stuff like Relative HP scaling.)

[surreal basin]

it's really unlikely for them to like

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/grinchsmile-gif-7255192

[surreal basin]

repeatedly fail a save

[eager mountain]

dangerous sorcerery is now a base ability for sorcerers

[surreal basin]

and if they get unlucky and do

[eager mountain]

and it applies to healing.

[surreal basin]

i don't see howe it's meaningfully different from like

a fighter rolling 3 nat 20s and ending a fight that way

yknow

[eager mountain]

also appearentyly dragonic can change your casting tradition, depending on the type of dragon now.

[trail nova]

A level 3 guy has 3 times the HP of a level 1 guy. A level 20 guy has about 10% more HP than a level 18 guy.

This causes issues if that's how you pick boss enemies.

[surreal basin]

In fairness the level 3 guy is the odd one out

after like.... level 5, that problem almost entirely stabilizes

[silver geyser]

The first few levels are much more difficult in terms of HP, yeah.

[trail nova]

Yeah, but I still think Solos is the healthier way. Lets you give bosses cool stuff that's insane on a mook. Stuff like Dragons being a little overpowered for their level, since they get the fancy solo techs.

[warped orbit]

unlike when they roll a lucky crit fail against Slow and the fight is over?

[surreal basin]

yeah paizos application of incap is very strange

a lot of spells that should be aren't, a lot of spells that are probably shouldn't be

[warped orbit]

I mean, Slow is fine

I don't really consider crit fail effects much, because they basically never happen

[clever cobalt]

Incap definitely feels anti-player at times but I think it's mostly fine

[warped orbit]

because due to the way saves scale, you rarely see enemy crit fails happen on anything other than a 1

[surreal basin]

again, I just changed incap to only trigger on a crit fail

[silver geyser]

Or if a Party really works to set up conditions for them.

[surreal basin]

and I have never had a party like

cheese a boss

which is ostensibly what incap is there to stop

[silver geyser]

Fighter Fear Strike is stonks.

Especially since I went into Talisman Dabbler and handed out free Fear Gems.

[echo briar]

Barb gets fear strike too now

[frank crystal]

Do we know what’s gonna happen to the existing champion clauses?

[warped orbit]

I kinda have, but it's the classic Bard trick that has no Incap
Inspire Heroics/Heroism into Synesthesia on the boss

[surreal basin]

I mean even then synthesthisia is just a reall good debuff, it doesn't really like

stop the fight

[warped orbit]

effective 7-8 point swing on your martials attacks is huge

[warped orbit]

I don't think it's overpowered, but it is extremely strong

[surreal basin]

oh for sure

its very strong

but again

it doesn't stop the fight is what i mean

it's not what incap is for is my point

[warped orbit]

Synesthesia alone is IMO a reason Occult is best or second best list

[barren cipher]

straight into the bin

[surreal basin]

you still have to like

do the fight

[warped orbit]

and it gets Heroism too

[frank crystal]

Oh shit

Are they at least gonna have equivalents?

Just something like paladin’s reactive strike

[surreal basin]

yes

causes are 'gone' but not really

theyre still there

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[surreal basin]

you still pick redeemer and get the redemption reaction

it's just not a cause per say

[frank crystal]

Oh

The way Pilcrow said it sounded like they were just, fully replaced with new stuff mechanically

[echo briar]

Speaking of synesthesia, apparently that’s in PC2. Does anyone know if it’s been changed?

[warped orbit]

the good causes are all still there by the looks of it

[warped orbit]

reprinted unchanged AFAIK

[warped orbit]

just no longer alignment locked obviously

[surreal basin]

ALCHEMIST GETS MASTER PROF IN WEAPONS

LETS GO

CLASS GOOD

[warped orbit]

yeah

[echo briar]

At level 15 though

[rapid wagon]

oh is there a good way to make an armored tank of a character? I was figuring probably a dwarven fighter of some kind with the bulwark archetype

[echo briar]

I just want to ask one of the devs what features make the alchemist too strong to have full proficiency at levels 5,6,13, and 14, but fine at every other level

[rapid wagon]

and maybe a tower shield

[surreal basin]

master at 15 is also what rogue gets i think

for weapons

[worthy stump]

13, actually

[frank crystal]

Champion dwarf with a tower shield is probably your best bet

[echo briar]

Nope, lvl 13 for rouges

[worthy stump]

so a bit later than normal martial progression for master prof on alch

[frank crystal]

Though if you don’t care about your speed, hold scarred Orc could be better for the extra health

[surreal basin]

I think it's mostly just like

[worthy stump]

champion or guardian make for the best armored tanks, given their improved progression for armor prof

[surreal basin]

throwing a bone to the people who were super scared of alch getting full progression

and tbh it's a marginal difference

[rapid wagon]

hmm hmm ok; was thinking about one of my first ever characters in pf, was an armormaster dwarf figther who did two weapon fighting using their shield and an axe

[worthy stump]

one of these days i'll have to cook up a character that can use a fortress shield without having a 10 ft speed...

besides the obvious choice of just using a mount, kek

[surreal basin]

I do think that alchemist being able to

actually use the stuff they make well

is huge

[worthy stump]

definitely, yeah

helps them fulfill the class' fantasy

[barren cipher]

i think it worked ok for warpriest right?

[surreal basin]

gets alch away from just essentially being a big pile of money

which was my big complaint

[worthy stump]

the ol' vending machine bomb dispenser alch was not great, yeah

[surreal basin]

pre-remaster alch can essentially have their party role replaced by a sufficiently large pile of money

[barren cipher]

although it's pretty damn late for warpriest

[worthy stump]

yeah, warpriest gets it at 19 which is super late. but i don't think i've seen anyone complain that it's bad they get master at all

[barren cipher]

they're at -1 from other martials a fair amount of the time anyway right

[surreal basin]

warpriest im happy they got just because like

they needed something at level 20 that cloistered didnt have

"faster fort progresson" was not a good reason to drop legenday spellcasting lol

but "I can use my last action to actually hit people" is really good

[warped orbit]

Oracle is a 4 slot caster now apparently

[frank crystal]

I mean I will say sword and board dual weapon fighter builds are very viable

They’re just not the best for a pure tank build

[warped orbit]

you can Double Slice with a shield spike/boss yeah

[frank crystal]

They’re even agile I think (though that doesn’t matter as much because dual weapon fighters will probably use double slice as their primary damage source)

[barren cipher]

they aren't, it gives you a -2 on your shield attack but honestly it's fine

[turbid dagger]

Guh? Free hand maneuvers are agile??

[barren cipher]

i think there was an faq clarification on that recently

[warped orbit]

yes, this got changed in the Remaster

maneuvers now benefit from agile when the weapon you use them with has both tags

and if you do it freehand, you benefit from the agile on fist

[turbid dagger]

Fascinating.......

[frank crystal]

That’s rad

[solar tendon]

wait really

[turbid dagger]

I love Disarm on my free hand fighter so this is a win

[solar tendon]

that's awesome

[frank crystal]

Honestly that opens up big possibilities for homebrew weapons too

I’d imagine a lot of people would run a weapon just for a good maneuver tag and agile

[turbid dagger]

I mean he'll take disarming twist at level 10 anyway but before that 💋

DisTwist is such a fuck you post remaster

[warped orbit]

also source, so I'm not just talking out of my ass
it's at the bottom of the Athletics page
https://2e.aonprd.com/Skills.aspx?ID=36

[solar tendon]

that's really cool

[turbid dagger]

Oooooi dirty trick also likely works on a lot of enemies that disarm doesn't
So that's another point in its favor

[warped orbit]

it works on all enemies AIUI

[turbid dagger]

Then it's also a demoralize equivalent for mindless undead
With the remaster changes I see one of those scoundrel swashes in my future

[surreal basin]

also something for a precision guy to do to like

oozes

instead of stand there and maybe go take a nap

[echo briar]

Pretty much all panache generators now give panache on a fail (but not crit fail)

I think swashbucklers are in a fine place now

Investigators seem to be better, but I’ve always said that the only thing they need is literally any amount of combat feats that utilize the strengths of devise stratagem

DS is really, really good when you have reliable uses for your actions when you roll low, big pay off attacks for when you roll high, and ways to boost accuracy when you almost hit. The investigator gets none of these without archetypes

[surreal basin]

investigator is good, just requires certain builds and patience

if you have like, a gun or bow, you can buff up a fuck load and then save your buff usage for rolling good on devise even if its not a free action

[echo briar]

With archetypes it’s fine, but it needs some in its own feats

[surreal basin]

ive been using a gun and the very expensive magnetic ammo

and when i roll bad on devise im the medicine healer

[barren cipher]

i hope melee investigators get something, although broadening cases seems to be a much needed improvement

[warped orbit]

Magnetic Ammo is great

I have a few of those on my Investigator too, when I roll well enough to fish for a crit

[surreal basin]

it's so disgusting

[warped orbit]

especially funny on guns, because magnetic shot gives Deadly IIRC

so you can stack Deadly and Fatal

[warped orbit]

I do hope they get some extra skill actions in class

[surreal basin]

yeah ive done like

150 damage on a mag crit

[warped orbit]

also I don't know if it was mentioned above already, you can discard your DaS roll now to gain a +1 bonus on skill checks, +2 if it's related to your Lead
but you are unable to Strike against your DaS target for the round

[surreal basin]

nice

[warped orbit]

also unrelated Wrestler change
Running Tackle now apparently lets you jump and Grapple

[turbid dagger]

Woah that's cool

It was shove before right

[warped orbit]

yeah

[light gyro]

https://tenor.com/view/deepfriedwoomy-gif-20893284

[warped orbit]

Stride, unarmed Strike, Shove

I've seen the new version brought up as an anti flyer option specifically, so that could be neat depending on wording

jump up and grab 'em

[turbid dagger]

Hoarah loux looking ass

[warped orbit]

LEECH-CLIP [two-actions] FEAT 1 HOBGOBLIN You are trained to capture deserters, or “leeches.” Make a melee Strike with weapon from the flail group. On a hit, the target takes a –10-foot status penalty to its Speed (or a –15-foot status penalty on a critical hit). The penalty lasts for 1 round. It applies only if the target has a land Speed and depends on legs or other targetable appendages to use its land Speed. As with all penalties to Speed, this can’t reduce a creature’s Speed below 5 feet.
the Leech Clipper feat for Hobgoblins is apparently getting changed a bit, seems definitely more usable now

oh also
it seems alchemical benefits is now a keyworded thing ala archetype spellcasting
so all the alchemical archetypes got standardized

seems to be 4+Int items you can prepare daily

but you no longer make multiple items with these

[warped orbit]

also one more Wrestler bit
Whirling Throw can toss people into walls for full damage now

[turbid dagger]

Bless 🙏

Does running tackle still have a strike in it or is it just jump grapple

[warped orbit]

I've not seen the exact wording, so can't say

[frank crystal]

I hope one day wrestler is optimal for every character in the game

I just think it’d be funny

[surreal basin]

Okay, so I have a note

I want my players lifestyles and how they live and rest and so on to matter
What kinda buffs could I use for sleeping in a nice tavern? Obviously temp HP, but I’m not really sure from there

[worthy stump]

uhhh, hmm. maybe look into the Kingmaker cooking stuff for inspiration on what buffs it could give?

[surreal basin]

Yeah that’s a big idea rn

[turbid dagger]

Uhhhh
Each time they get the fatigued or sickened condition in a day, attempt a DC 5 flat check to not get it due to good sleep and food
Every time they pass the check it goes up by 5
This idea is likely not balanced but I was thinking in the terms of a jumping off point

[worthy stump]

hmm. could be an idea, yeah. those two conditions aren't awfully common, though

[surreal basin]

Ooo that’s not bad

[turbid dagger]

Sickened in particular is more common than you'd think, especially at low levels
Where you run into more pathetic gross skrunkly type enemies

[worthy stump]

fair enough, yeah. stench-type auras do pop up a fair bit on low level enemies like goblinoids and such

[solar thorn]

There's also some pretty nasty spells that inflict it later

I've had enemy Erinys force the players on the back foot because a Divine Retribution sickened half the party

[vast burrow]

So, how do we feel about Godbreaker

(Credit to BadLuckGamer for the picture)

It's kinda like Cross the Final Horizon, where you make 3 strikes, and if they all hit you deal even more damage

But rather than -2 to all strikes with no MAP, MAP just applies normally

[warped orbit]

well at minimum, you basically deal 10 damage and Prone

if the first Strike succeeds, that's another 10 damage

[vast burrow]

At max potential that's 4 strikes worth of damage + 30

but you need to hit 3 strikes in a row with MAP, though they are Grappled for the entirety of it so probably also Off-Guard

[warped orbit]

you probably won't hit the full three Strikes in most cases, but for just the first two that seems pretty okay

and it pretty much requires you to have Catfall to ignore the fall damage yourself, but that's fine

a lot of unarmed is agile at least

[vast burrow]

Ye

[vast burrow]

Three actions 2 unarmed attacks + 20 damage and prone?

[vast burrow]

There's also the option of nabbing Agile Grace from the Fighter Archetype at Level 20

If you really want to hit

[turbid dagger]

Wrestler flurry ranger continues to be the secret hero
Also agile grace fighter

Oh wait is this on wrestler archetype or is it on a class
Why is fighter arch getting brought up

[vast burrow]

It's a new Level 20 Monk feat

[turbid dagger]

Oh drat

[vast burrow]

For even better Agile unarmed attacks, Godbreaker does an extra unarmed attack of damage if you hit all 3 previous attacks(MAP included)

And 30 fall damage too

And you even keep them Grappled if you succeed on all 3!

I hope the other classes get some new capstone feats as well

[warped orbit]

yeah I was thinking about that

you can do it with FA

[vast burrow]

Ya

[warped orbit]

with some good setup, this is doable I think with a bit of luck on the third Strike

[vast burrow]

Your target is also Off-Guard since they keep being Grappled/Restrained too, with a bit of outside help it shouldn't be that hard

[warped orbit]

yeah

but like I said, I think it's worth it for just the first two already

[warped orbit]

because this is actually a pretty good deal IMO

[vast burrow]

Yeah I can see it

The one pinch-point here though is that since it's a 3 action activity you need to keep them Grappled for at least 1 round

Though that shouldn't be too hard with max Athletics and Strength I hope

[warped orbit]

I mean, you just Grab them

if they Escape, you already did your job

[vast burrow]

Mm?

You need to have a creature Grabbed to use Godbreaker

[warped orbit]

yeah my point is that a creature spending an action and MAP to Escape is already value positive for you

[vast burrow]

Yeah that's fair

[warped orbit]

so if they do that just because you can threaten Godbreaker, that's good

either you waste part of their turn, or you get to fuck them up

[vast burrow]

True true

[turbid dagger]

Oh I get it now that I know it's a monk thing
My first assumption was that it was on wrestler archetype
For the full suplex-aerial piledriver-godbreaker evolution line

But yeah this is a lil sad as a monk thing mayhap
Def still possible to make work especially with, yeah, free archetype fighter

And it's nice that melee monk gets triangle shot now too 😛

God I fucking love triangle shot

[upbeat ridge]

Uhhhh barb doesn’t seem to have -1 ac from rage?

Not sure if that’s intentional?

[barren cipher]

that would sure fix some problems

[upbeat ridge]

It would make barbs extremley good

[vast burrow]

Also apparently Kholo(Gnolls) get 3 Level 17 feats now??

(This is from the Reddit AMA)

[clever cobalt]

:0

[vast burrow]

Why do Elves still only have that one teleport one 😭

[clever cobalt]

What are they and are there other feat changes for Kholo?

[vast burrow]

GIVE EM SOMETHIN MAN

[vast burrow]

No clue, somebody on reddit asked if Kholo got anything cool and the response was "They have 3 Level 17 feats!"

[clever cobalt]

finally

[barren cipher]

i blame elf step

[vast burrow]

I mean Humans also only get one Level 17 Ancestry Feat but that one's actually usable in almost any situation

[turbid dagger]

Base 30 speed plus a speed boost may have a part to play also

[trail nova]

I do kind of wish that they actually expanded Ancestry feat lists after publication. Like, if you're going to the damn trouble of making the feat list, actually use it.

[clever cobalt]

They do sometimes

[rustic cape]

Oooh, my Player Core 2 just shipped

[clever cobalt]

👀

let us know\ about Kholo

[warped orbit]

Toxicologist can now ignore poison/acid resistance and immunity, choose either poison or acid and do more damage with that

they get this at level 1

not fully confirmed yet, but I'm just gonna put it here

[solar tendon]

just poison better scrub

[warped orbit]

Bomber has Calculated Splash built in

[solar tendon]

(toxicologists @ other poison users)

[warped orbit]

Quick Bomber now lets you Quick Alchemy for a bomb and throw it as a single action

[solar tendon]

I saw mutagenist can use their encounter resources to ignore mutagen downsides which is pretty awesome

[warped orbit]

yeah

they also get temp HP when they drink a mutagen

[solar tendon]

oh neat

I imagine that's kinda like

[warped orbit]

and phys resistance at higher levels

[solar tendon]

their current level 2 feat is dismiss mutagen for healing so if the others got feats rolled in maybe that's the equivalent

[warped orbit]

I do hope other Research Fields get some action econ boosters too, especially since your ability to pre-apply stuff is reduced now

oh Bestial mutagen supposedly also has inbuilt Striking progression for the unarmed attack now

[turbid dagger]

Do I have the right of it that since the melee use of a bow staff is a bow, not a staff club not a bow, a monastic archer stance monk can't make strikes with the melee half while in the stance?

Er

Melee use is a club not a bow

Brain went haywire

[warped orbit]

strictly, I think yes

comment I just saw on Chirurgeon
they might be able to innately throw healing items now, which I assume lets you apply them at range or at least hand them to allies

[echo briar]

Rage no longer gives an AC penalty

Unless you multi class, then it does

[barren cipher]

does it specify 'in addition to the normal effects' or anything in the archetype?

[echo briar]

I don’t know, I am just going off of what Reddit said

[echo briar]

SF2 isn’t being sent out to subscribers early right?

[solar tendon]

Oh neat

[limber comet]

Not afaik

[frank crystal]

Oh shit yah starfinder 2e is coming out soon aint it

[sinful gyro]

Playtest is next month

Not sure when

But I'm hyped

Probably gonna run some games

[frank crystal]

Same

It’ll be fun

[sinful gyro]

I hope so

I'm just excited for wacky sci fi rpg times

[frank crystal]

I mean I’d imagine even at it’s worse it’s just reskinned PF2E

Which like

[clever cobalt]

Do we know how extensive the Playtest is gonna be?

[frank crystal]

That’s already a fun system

[clever cobalt]

Like will the classes be "full" and whatnot

[frank crystal]

I think an adventure

[clever cobalt]

mhm

[sinful gyro]

Iirc, I think they said it won't cover core rules that pf2e does

[clever cobalt]

Understandable

[sinful gyro]

But the final actual book will

So stuff like, how to resolve dice, the action econ, how spells work, maybe some skills etc

No need to go over that again

[clever cobalt]

also

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6vepl?Battlecry-Playtest-Debriefing

Battlecry! blog

[sinful gyro]

So I imagine the focus will be all the new classes and starfinder specific things

[clever cobalt]

also, https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6vce9?Happy-Cosmic-Birthday

an SF2e playtest blog

:v

good timing

[sinful gyro]

Yeah looks neat

Nice simple intro adventure

[clever cobalt]

Yep, 1-4

[sinful gyro]

Fuckin around on the station as shit goes down

[clever cobalt]

I'm just curious if it's gonna be premades or "make your own PC"

I'm gonna assume the latter cause Playtest

[sinful gyro]

Yesh

Like maybe they could include some pre mades

But its coming out with the playtest so, make your own

[frank crystal]

I feel like it’s gotta have options

[surreal basin]

The PF2E playtest was essentially a full game

This is seemingly gonna be the same

[frank crystal]

Did it go up to 20 from the start?

Because I know it came out in batches

[sinful gyro]

I think the sf2e one will be smaller than the pf2e cos they aren't going over core rules

But other than that, it should have everything i think?

[frank crystal]

Huh

I just realized bear and cat barb are identical

A jaw 1d10 piercing attack, and a claw 1d6 agile slashing attack

[turbid dagger]

As I understand it it's gonna be released as basically an extremely comprehensive expansion to pf2e
The full book will have a full explanation of rules mechanics but this one is gonna have just the stuff that's unique to SF, with the expectation you'll be familiar with Player Core for basic rules

[frank crystal]

Can you trigger aggressive block off reactive block?

[limber comet]

Honestly I think for a playtest that's pretty good

[turbid dagger]

Oh no I'm wicked excited

[limber comet]

I'm too hyperfixated on Wildsea atm but I'd wager when the playtest drops I'll lock in

I have some sf2e ideas floating around but I'd need a group

[turbid dagger]

I'm probably gonna run some sf2e when I can also

[limber comet]

Rubs my hands together nefariously

I haven't played much 2e but I'd be willing to be a sort of uhh

Control test, and play something from normal pf2e

Like a barb

[frank crystal]

Any ancestries that synergies with a shield dual weapons fighter particularly well?