Pathfinder

[rapid wagon]

specifically Lamashtu's in this case

[stuck bane]

Ah, my bad

[rapid wagon]

and I'm just discovering that I find lamashtu's evil so much worse than the usual

in that i think they're such a sinister kind of entity

[silver geyser]

Ye, she's just the worst

[rapid wagon]

wormtongue stuff

turn your most vulnerable selves into her weapons

[silver geyser]

Also, the Nualia fan-made stuff that drove her to hate being an Aasimar.

[rapid wagon]

an unspoken thing i think about, does she do away away with her tools when the tool is done? I imagine she has her favored servants, and sees no issue with the communities they built; but i also wonder if hteres a level of callous "Now that you've broken down the order i so hated, I don't need you anymore" stuff

but that could be a more grounded narrative between her clerics and other characters

Who would a victim of lamashtu's manipulations turn to for like redemption or revenge? (I'm having like... light character ideas)

[silver geyser]

There's always Sarenrae!

And now there's also an even better choice!

Nocticula!

[stuck bane]

For revenge there's also the obvious choice of Calistria

Half the party in the outlaws game I'm in worships calistria, and the starting premise has revenge targets aplenty for the pcs

[silver geyser]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Deities.aspx?ID=45

Behold!

Edicts create art true to yourself, protect marginalized artists, punish those who take advantage of offered trust and shelter
Anathema deny shelter to the desperate, destroy harmless art you dislike, finish a work of art during daylight hours

Nocticula is just great vibes in general, tbh

[rapid wagon]

hmm hmm hmm learning about more gods is cool

what i was thinking was someone who got manpulated into doing something terrible and only had their moment of clarity after it was all done and lamashtu's servants abandoned them

and a sort of search for redemption

after the fact

[silver geyser]

The Redeemer Queen is great for that.

The first succubus, a woman who carved her bloody name into the Abyss itself, one who put down other demon lords to secure her place

Eventually realizing how hollow everything is in the Abyss, and deciding to change.

[rapid wagon]

sick

[silver geyser]

Yeah, thinking on this more, this would be a rad concept

[vast burrow]

So, you lose Undetected after attacking right? Or any other obvious action

And go straight to Observed if you're not Invisible or something

[warped orbit]

you lose it before most actions, but if you Strike you still benefit from the target being Off Guard

[vast burrow]

Right, I was wondering cuz Way of the Sniper's Ghost Shot makes it seem like a big disadvantage that you lose Undetected, but the fact that it gives you Hidden instead is actually a bonus right?

[solar tendon]

ye

[paper juniper]

i cooked a think that i think is silly for 1e

mostly out o shits and giggles

but also because i think playing a body hopper is cool

Race: Symbiont

    Type: Aberration
    Hit Die: d4 (regardless of class)
    Ability Scores:
        Frail Form: -4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution
        Inhabited Form: Gains bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution equal to host's physical ability score modifiers.
    Size: Tiny (frail form)
    Speed: 40 feet (frail form)
    Parasitic Inhabitation (Ex):
        Reaction: Can exit inhabited body, returning to frail form.
        Indefinite Inhabitation: Can inhabit a corpse until it is destroyed.

Treated as Host: Treated as host race, size, and type.
        Temporary HP: Gains temporary HP equal to half the host's original HP. When this HP is depleted, the body is rendered unusable.

Racial Ability: Gains one of the host's racial abilities. (if any, player's choice)
        Perception Check: DC 15 + host's HD to detect something is wrong.

    Skill Bonuses: +2 Stealth, +2 Knowledge (anatomy)
    Weaknesses: Takes 50% additional damage from area effects and splash damage in frail form.
    Languages: Common + INT, understands but cannot speak host languages.

i just realized the ramifications of this

and it is hella op lol

me needs to thikn

[limber comet]

Picked up Blood and Sigils

I like the way the Hemalurgist feels

It feels like a spin on Magus in a good way

The Inscriber is... confusing

It's almost like a kineticist

But not really

[limber comet]

Yeah I don't get the Inscriber

I might just be stupid though

[vocal wave]

Running the game for some friends, a plant druid, fury barb and a investigator, they're level 3 now and the barb has been monopolizing the combat spotlight by destroying everything in few hits and being tough as nails. Any idea on how to hand over the spotlight to the two others for an encounter or two? They've been pretty demoralized by their combat efficiency

[turbid dagger]

Ranged attackers up on top of stuff, or fliers
The first one is safer but the second absolutely will no worry about the barb at all

The barbarian is gonna either have to take a long route to get to elevated peeps or else spend whole ass actions on climbing

(Of course, mix this in alonside regular melee dudes so your barb isnt just sitting on their thumb during all of this)

[warped orbit]

Tbh, this is also kinda just what Barb does

It's more polarized early because HP is low compared to damage

It'll even out a bit more over time

The Druid will have an edge in fights with lots of weaker enemies, by blasting them with AoE spells

Investigator can mostly leverage skills when possible, but it also gets better over time thanks to Strategic Strike scaling

Also are they ranged or melee?

[barren cipher]

mobs are great yeah

and swarms

they just got deny advantage though so that takes some of the edge off

[young chasm]

this

especially compared to an investigator, which is historically not a combat class

druid will feel more powerful as time goes on when they get access to higher level spells

primal tradition go boom

[barren cipher]

i think that elevating the investigator is a more difficult proposition though

a caster free archetype can be a help

magus on a melee investigator can make people explode in absolutely comical fashion

[vocal wave]

the investigator's ranged and he's dealing 1d8+1d6 per round (if he gets a good strategem roll) compared to the 1d12+6 multiple times per turn from the barb lol. he accepted the fact that he picked a not-combat class but still I would like to give him a moment to shine at some point. the druid's getting better now that he has access to lvl 2 spell slots

i'll probably give them a free archetype when they reach lvl 4

[barren cipher]

investigator's still a full martial, ranged naturally does quite a bit less damage

figuring out how to do something on a round with a poor devise roll is quite important though

making sure to give them reliable leads is a big help

[warped orbit]

archetypes can help a lot in filling out turns with bad Devise rolls

casting a cantrip from a casting dedication eg

[limber comet]

Hm

I wonder what a Pathfinder setting that's entirely stone age would be like

Not just the Mammoth Lords, but an entire setting

[carmine egret]

I've thought about that too

I think it works best for systems that already classify gear by tech level

Like Fantasy Craft

[turbid dagger]

TBH
The mammoth lords stay in their lane, they don't interact with neighbours much
So you can kind of take the narrative conceit of the Realm and like
Pinch it and stretch it to cover a whole globe
That is to say, I figure it works well

[limber comet]

Mmm yeah probably

I think a lot of the fun would be translating some of the more advanced magic items back to being more primitive

I think it also helps that a lot of pf2e classes translate well into that sort of setting, barring Gunslinger and Inventor

Alchemist is a bit weird too but it could probably be cool if applied well

Maybe Swashbuckler too? I can't picture a primitive swashbuckler

[turbid dagger]

The base flavor doesn't fit but the mechanics probably do
A glory seeking hunter, the kind to bait a bull moose into charging and spear it as they leap out of the way at the last second
There's even a god for those types of dudes in Frozen Flame: https://2e.aonprd.com/Deities.aspx?ID=239

Of course for a new world you may use custom gods but

[limber comet]

Mmm you are right

Investigator might also be funky

[surreal basin]

My players just fought a severely fucked up clay effigy

And I wanna know how y’all feel about something I allowed

They had a disruptive consumable that could dispel divine or occult magic

And one of them planted it on the golem and rolled really really good, so I let them disable it’s resistances for 1d4+1 rounds

They had already got it to half health with its resistance on, were struggling, and it was a creative idea

How do you feel about stuff like that

[barren cipher]

that seems about ideal honestly

[young chasm]

yeah i fuck with it

[rustic cape]

That seems cool

[cyan raven]

smart and wise

[turbid dagger]

Am I missin anything, or can a Barbarian use Lay On Hands while Raging?
Thinking of a Deer Barb with Champion Archetype (ranged reprisal + paladin reaction, ho)

[barren cipher]

sure can

[turbid dagger]

Another question:
If you have a str malus as a thief rogue, that does not apply to your melee strikes since it uses your dex mod instead, yes? And since thrown strikes don't sub in dex, would they take the -1 damage?

[barren cipher]

you can dump strength but that also dumps AC for a while

thrown weapons would indeed take the -1

i guess you could do chain shirt and just deal with the check penalties

[warped orbit]

I suppose so, yeah

and yeah for thrown you would take the -1

[barren cipher]

if whatever you get in exchange for 10 str is worth -1 on thievery and stealth then why not

[turbid dagger]

I'm just charopping a thief rogue and am thinking ancestries
Awakened Animal may actually be the best fit
Con/Dex/Wis and you take a hit to int, which rogue truly, truly does not need

And then you can select climbin animal and still ninja around despite not being good at athletics

[barren cipher]

i think it's in almost everyone's interest to be reasonably good at athletics or have substitutes for being good at athletics

[turbid dagger]

In this case, the substitute would be having a climb speed, and good acrobatics for escaping grapples

[barren cipher]

climb speed with combat climber would handle a lot but 20' land speed is pretty painful

[turbid dagger]

I'm planning on takin adopted ancestry human so I can dual wield Tamchal Chakrams 😌

So add a 20 foot throw range onto that

[limber comet]

https://fixupx.com/paizo/status/1808191411994390590?t=CMbz5YYmC6GtYZJ2hRbvQg&s=19

[solar storm]

whoa

[limber comet]

Chk Chk and Dae have romantic tension

[carmine egret]

I have a first-time player (has prior TTRPG experience but from playing Paranoia and Shadowrun decades ago, so his expectations have been a little skewed) and him desperately trying to squeeze every ounce of Cool into his character has led to a fascinating backstory. Automaton who wound up in Ustalav for a couple decades and picked up some mad science.

[worthy stump]

that is a pretty cool backstory, tbh

[true delta]

What kind of weapons and armour do y'all use in Quest flr the Frozen Flame?

[rustic cape]

I punch the shit out of things in my trousers

Wolf Stance baaaaabeeeeeey

My party has a kineticist, an imaginary weapon psychic, and a druid

I am a thief rogue

[surreal basin]

Yeah honestly I’d try to not go weapons

Since frozen flame is kinda infamous for uh

Not having any runes

In it

[rustic cape]

Tbh it’s fine with ABP

But by fine I do mean I think it’s sorta mandatory

[surreal basin]

Oh it fully is

[rustic cape]

I really like QftFF

But it does demonstrate how some story conceits just don’t lend themselves to a whole bunch of magic items and so ABP is often a really good mechanic

Also, sassing my GM

[carmine egret]

Had an unexpected wholesome moment at work... the Automaton player I mentioned above brought his G&G copy to work and another coworker asked about it. I mentioned there was a character in there that looked like her and flipped to Nhalmika's page. She was instantly infatuated, wanted to read her backstory, flipped around and just generally seemed interested in the game. Afterwards she kept telling me to show other people the character cuz she was so pleased/amused with it.

https://cdn.paizo.com/a7d62ac8-7f03-00ef-f1f0-83fb8bf332e2/323c789b-7e51-4a42-a3f8-0307e601809a/IconicGunslinger_Nhalmika_keyart.jpg

The woman in question is a shortish black lady with almost exactly the same hair, headband and all.

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Does the adventure tell you to use ABP?

[rustic cape]

I don’t think so

[surreal basin]

Of

*oof

It definitely should

It’s one of the reasons my group doesn’t really wanna play it

[barren cipher]

do you get money or crafting materials?

[echo briar]

Will likely have the problem with SoT lol

the loot is there, but the players are students, not adventurers, so why would they take stuff off of peoples bodies?

[rustic cape]

Personally I think ABP should be standard

[echo briar]

They tried doing that in the playtest

[rustic cape]

I know why it’s not

People would complain

But I like it better that way

I also like the idea of runes as optional bonuses that can put you ahead of the curve … for a minute

[barren cipher]

i support anything that takes fundamental weapon runes away

i think it works well if you bake it into the economy

[rustic cape]

I think having them in the game world in addition to ABP is alright but at a certain point they just do nothing for you because you’re too awesome

[barren cipher]

so you have to do drugs, get tattoos or whatever to get your fundamentals up, meanwhile the wizard can spend the money on wands

[echo briar]

At this point, the problem with taking fundamental runes away is you get rid of the martial gold sink, but not the caster gold sink (wands, staves, and scrolls)

[barren cipher]

but i really dislike the fighter getting dumpstered because they don't have their specific magic sword

[rustic cape]

In the hands of a master a rubbish sword is equal to the sword of legend, that type of thing

[barren cipher]

a magic sword made of special material and with property runes is obviously better and everyone should have one of course

[echo briar]

and trying to do a ABP for staves wands and scrolls is much harder

[surreal basin]

Yeah I agree with Polish

There’s just not a ton for martials to dumpster money into the same way

You would have to change the economy of the game some

NOW

I do think fundamental runes are the weakest part of the games progression

But ABP has its own problems

[solar thorn]

I do feel that a fighter should have the money to buy multiple weapons with max runes

I think the best solution to that is, as a GM go "here's some more runes please keep these" though so to stop your player from binning them for extra change

[tough perch]

you can have each caster have a personal staff for free

not a perfect solution, but a solution nonetheless

[echo briar]

If I have a druid with plant empathy, should I assume the plants have any external sensory organs at all?

Because if they can't see except for basic light/no light, can't hear, can only kinda feel, and can sometimes smell but only for very certain things, I am having a very hard time seeing how that would ever be useful.

[turbid dagger]

There are abilities that let you do the whole 'communicate with/make very simple requests of' thing with stones
So yes, assume the plants have some kind of magical fable spirit sight because this is a magical world and can thus answer questions about their surroundings

[echo briar]

I think most of the confusion is this PFS Note The Plant Empathy druid feat can be used to speak to any plant or fungus. However, GMs should remember that this feat does not alter a plant's intelligence, and that everyday plants would therefore know very little about their surroundings.

[turbid dagger]

Then its largely GM fiat I imagine

[rapid wagon]

I think "know little about their surroundings" reads as "They're not gonna remember much for very long and what they know will hardly be detailed

And you could adjust this by how old or storied a specific plant is

say like an old oak

might know moew

more*

than grass

[solar storm]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1dv3f1s/i_gave_all_level_1_skill_feats_for_free_and_it/

This looks interesting honestly

[frank crystal]

I might try that

[carmine egret]

Hey I know I need a module to give my players Companions (specifically inventor construct in this case) but the reddit post I found about it was two years old so I'm not sure if the one it suggested is what I should get, anyone have insight here?

[frank crystal]

The companion compendium is what I use

[carmine egret]

okay that's what they said, just needed to be sure

[frank crystal]

Ah alright

[carmine egret]

Hm, once it's installed how do I actually use it?

[frank crystal]

You make a new player sheet, give it to your player and drag the chosen companion from the compendium to the ancestry section of the sheet

It will then prompt you for any choices required by that companion like an eidolon’s attacks

This does mean essentially the player will have to handle multiple PC sheets at once though

[carmine egret]

oooh okay

[frank crystal]

Also my sister has been wanting me to run a TTRPG for her so I’m wondering, what short adventure would be a good introduction to PF2E and TTRPGs in general?

Ideally something runnable on foundry

[carmine egret]

Beginner Box is rather popular

[solar storm]

Beginner Box is good for very new players yeah

It's IMO a little bit basic for people who know TTRPGs and want to try PF2

The free RPG day adventures are also all good introductions

[frank crystal]

What’s the adventure?

For the beginner box

[solar storm]

I think its just the beginner box

Troubles in Otari is its followup iirc

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

Also I assume the beginner box has a module on foundry where it comes prepreppared?

[solar storm]

Yeah but it isn't free

https://paizo.com/products/btq02eap

Very good quality I am told

[frank crystal]

That’s fine

[vast burrow]

Korakai art

[frank crystal]

So I’m trying to make the dungeon meshi characters as PF2E sheets and I’m wondering, what wizard school do y’all think is best for Marcille?

I’m thinking of whatever one has the most necromancy

Either that or battle magic because she does like explosion magic

Also seems like school of the boundary would be the best for the necromancy option

[pastel bane]

Hey what would be the pest patron for a Tome Thaumaturge w/ Witch Archetype

[barren cipher]

can you dodge the int requirement on witch somehow?

[warped orbit]

Witch archetype doesn't seem to be able to actually gain any features from the Patron, so it's just about tradition

[barren cipher]

if so it largely depends what you want to do with your spellcasting

[warped orbit]

I'd probably say an Occult one then?
Divine if you want heals

but yeah mostly depends on what you're looking to get out of the casting archetype

[barren cipher]

i don't generally find archetype heals super useful, they're just so far behind

getting scroll or whatever access for them is another matter but also if you're a thaum you can just have that for everything

[warped orbit]

yeah Scroll Thaum can already a lot of what you'd do via casting archetype

[pastel bane]

Mig by take magus

Wait what are the charisma casters for pf2e?

[barren cipher]

sorcerer, bard, oracle, summoner

[pastel bane]

What are their traditions cuz I know Bard is Occult and Sorcerer and Summoner very

[warped orbit]

Sorcerer can be any

Summoner as well, but I wouldn't recommend Summoner archetype

[barren cipher]

summoner archetype is, uh

yeah it's real bad

[turbid dagger]

Sorcer and Summoner can be any but- yeah uh
Don't do that

Bard arch for thaum sounds slick honestly

[warped orbit]

Bard is good, though for Thaum it's probably tricky to fit in composition cantrips

[turbid dagger]

Probably not the Biggest deal I think
Depends on the adventure
Official modules REALLY like to throw 'the same enemy three times' at you so if you get mortal weakness up you often do not have to worry about exploiting vuln again

[clever cobalt]

I can't wait for the Player's Guide for Curtain Call

[young chasm]

bard archetype for summoner is real good

with act togther its pretty easy to fit in a composition cantrip

[echo briar]

also psychic

[frank crystal]

What rogue racket is best for a ranged rogue build?

[surreal basin]

I think there are a lot of feats you can give out for free but I feel like EVERY level one skill feat starts to kinda feel bad imo
In the sense that like…. Everyone has quick identification! In a lot of games that’s been something a character specialized in but now anyone can
Everyone has catfall! Even stuff like everyone has Titan wrestler I could see maybe maybe being weird

[barren cipher]

mastermind probably

[solar storm]

Yeah I agree a few of them are too important for that

[barren cipher]

pulling offguard out of thin air is good

[frank crystal]

Makes sense

Is ranger rogue like, good in general?

I’m not super well versed in rogue feats

[solar storm]

But there’s a fair few ehhhh low level skill feats

[frank crystal]

Idk if there are many good ranged ones

[solar storm]

Rogue is probably the best general use dedication imo

[surreal basin]

Battle medicine on everyone is insane

That was one he specifically called out where I’m like

[frank crystal]

Oh this is only if they qualify normally

The OP specified

[surreal basin]

That’s not a feat tax

It

It GIVES you a new ability

That’s not what a feat tax is lol

Stitch Flesh is a feat tax, arguably Titan wrestler is
You do not need battle medicine to use medicine skill

[clever cobalt]

Intimidating Glare is a feat tax

[frank crystal]

It’s very annoying to get such a nerfed intimidation against creatures that don’t speak any of your languages yah

[warped orbit]

you still need to invest to really get that much out of it, so I don't think it's actually an issue
though yes, Battle Medicine is actually good

[surreal basin]

Yeah that one I agree everyone should have

Intimidating glare is stupid

[clever cobalt]

Battle Medicine is very useful but isn't required

[warped orbit]

it's fine mostly, though I think in general Rogues are much better off in melee

[clever cobalt]

Intimidating Glare meanwhile is practically required

[frank crystal]

Ah alright

[barren cipher]

ranged rogue is ok as long as you can reliably obtain off-guard - it's lower risk in exchange for lower than expected damage compared to melee

[frank crystal]

Admittedly this is for my Chilchuck build so like, being bad at combat is in fact in character lol

[warped orbit]

mostly because melee has some very strong feats enabling it
namely Gang Up, Opportune Backstab, and Preparation

[frank crystal]

Also I’d imagine in general it’s way easier to get off guard in melee then range

[barren cipher]

yeah, there's just like

flanking

you go and stand somewhere and your class works

[clever cobalt]

most of the time at least

[barren cipher]

you do have some alternatives but they all have action costs or are conditional

[frank crystal]

What’s the best way to get ranged off guard?

[barren cipher]

feint doesn't work for you, you can create a distraction but that has a cooldown

dread striker, mastermind rogue feature, stealth

[warped orbit]

Create a Distraction, Hide

Mastermind does it off RK

[frank crystal]

Yah so all stuff that either requires a check or doesn’t work multiple times a fight

[barren cipher]

or both!

[warped orbit]

alternatively, hope one of your allies likes Tripping/Grappling

[frank crystal]

Admittedly that is very popular

I don’t think I’ve been in a party yet without at least one athletics focused character

[solar tendon]

or dread striker + a bard

[frank crystal]

And I’ve been one several times

[young chasm]

im gonna say something controversial

i think battle medicine feels bad to take

in that if you are playing a healer you Should be taking battle medicine otherwise you are just hurting yourself and your party and therefore makes your choices less meaningful

one of the critiques i can give that guy in the reddit link is that it takes away meaningful choices players make

[surreal basin]

It depends on what kind of healer you are

If you’re playing a cleric I wouldn’t really expect you to take battle medicine cause like

You already have in combat healing

[young chasm]

i would because it's Right There

[surreal basin]

I think that it’s a waste of a feat if you aren’t investing in the medicine skill beyond trained

And if you are investing in medicine than Yeag you should grab it the same way someone investing in athletics should grab Titan wrestler

[young chasm]

yeah exactly

[surreal basin]

The alternative is that you get battle medicine for being trained in med which is too strong for too little investment imo

Everyone in a party having battle medicine would be crazy strong and very easy w that rule

[warped orbit]

Is it really that strong though?

[young chasm]

my group of friends of whom i host for (and others host for us) have a houserule where free battle medicine if you're trained in medicine, and honestly it doesn't break the game, most people who pick up trained in medicine don't typically use it unless they are in dire straits and need emergency healing

[warped orbit]

If you don't keep investing, the healing is not gonna keep up

[young chasm]

ultimately it just lets the healer's use that skill feat for something they are also interested in beyond healing

[surreal basin]

Idk, I guess

[warped orbit]

And if you are investing in Medicine, you probably would have taken BM anyway

[young chasm]

if you're taking battle medicine i think it's fairly safe to assume you have some level of interest in investing medicine

maybe not as your main skill

but

[surreal basin]

I general don’t think skill feats are an interesting facet of the game for character stuff imo

It’s basically just a slot for weird stuff that would feel bad to give everyone

Imo

[young chasm]

oh that's interesting

[surreal basin]

At the current moment in the games design

The characterful skill feats usually suck really bad

[young chasm]

i really like the skill feat system. really my only qualm with it is that some skills feel like their skill feats are too good

[surreal basin]

Like eye for numbers

[warped orbit]

I do mostly agree with the post that level 2+ skill feats do enough for build variety still

[young chasm]

yeah that for sure i agree

[surreal basin]

Oh the Arcane legendary feat is full stop too strong

And I borderline ban it

I hate unified theory so much

[warped orbit]

I would conversely argue that most skill feat lines are bad

[surreal basin]

Arcana is just the best magic skill to have full stop

[warped orbit]

The ones that are "too good" are just the only good ones

[young chasm]

that's a glass half full way of looking at it

and i think thats valid

i won't argue with it

[young chasm]

err other way around with that saying w/e it is lol

[warped orbit]

Like yeah Medicine and Athletics have way more support
But I think the other skills should have an equal level of support and usefulness instead

[solar tendon]

they should

[young chasm]

i agree

[solar tendon]

they should flesh out exploration and downtime more too

I think it would be really cool if other skills were as build defining as medicine can be

like medicine makes you a healer, completely seperate from the class system

[echo briar]

I feel like the the magic skills should give you spells with feats at latter levels.

Like expert for cantrips, master for 1-3 level spells, legendary for 4-7.

significantly delayed compared to archetypes, but still useful.

Performance needs a bon mont like feat. something to give it legitimate combat use (and also a legendary feat thats not so mean to my GM)

every other skill is honestly in a decent place, but I wouldn't mind more skills having legendary feats

[turbid dagger]

Huh
Ironhoof Centaurs can get a d8 bludgeoning finesse unarmed attack as a level 1 ancestry feat
The Aldori Dueling Sword continues to get dragged through the gutter, and hm I wonder if a steelhoof centaur swash is good

Mechanically it seems rock solid but also god the mental image is dumb

[frank crystal]

Why?

[barren cipher]

I see you’ve learned your Capo Ferro! 🥾🎊

[turbid dagger]

Centaur swashbuckler that just hoof kicks everything to death is not exactly Jetstream Sam levels of cool

[clever cobalt]

Aldori is generally pretty weird

because uh

idk how to describe it

[frank crystal]

In your opinion

[turbid dagger]

Centaur in general is an incredibly silly-looking mythical creature
Bro looks like the letter L

[solar tendon]

I like deertaur

maybe my sportsball wizard should be a deertaur

polo but your are the horse

[frank crystal]

Ok actually though I just realized centaurs can make all shoves successes critical successes

As a level 1 feat

[solar tendon]

really speaks to how bad shove is

[turbid dagger]

Yeah thats the main thing there lmao

[solar tendon]

I think it should just not be an attack

like the trait I mean

oh ponygait gives a permanent +1 circ to reflex

like all reflex saves

[frank crystal]

centaur seems kinda cracked

[barren cipher]

the fuck?!

[frank crystal]

Also large in general seems strong

Like there’s not any real downsides imo

[solar tendon]

you're in difficult terrain for like every corridor

n a lot of rooms become awkward with spacing

construct inventor is basically playing a large character before it was cool haha

it's plenty cool too though

[frank crystal]

I guess but like, idk I feel like most GMs if they have a large player would make most maps fit them unless they were actively planning to hurt them like that

[solar tendon]

it's a fair downside imo

[frank crystal]

And like, if they wanted to do that they could just use actual difficult terrain

[frank crystal]

I guess so, I still think it’s overall another strength of centaur though

[turbid dagger]

Since PF2e does say 'you can fit into normal hallways guaranteed but its diff terrain' your GM has the right to make normal hallways diff terrain for you

[solar tendon]

map design meta is impossible to predict as a whole ofc

[clever cobalt]

Large characters honestly feel kinda impractical to me

[solar tendon]

but I'm speaking from ap experience

[frank crystal]

Fair yah

[clever cobalt]

they can do cool things but is it worth the cost?

[turbid dagger]

I measured it out yesterday and a large PC with a reach weapon is controlling 36 squares
So like
Its a decent trade

[frank crystal]

Yah but big AOOs

Tortuga gaming

[turbid dagger]

I'm building a Awakened Animal (Dire Wolf) fighter with a Nodachi right now and seeing dollar signs

[frank crystal]

Like especially for Minotaurs with their reach stance

[barren cipher]

the control when you’re large is phenomenal

[clever cobalt]

Minotaurs don't have reach without that stance though

it just gives them normal Large Size reach with the stance

[frank crystal]

Yah I’m just saying that’s extra for them

[barren cipher]

i was playing mounted paladin and even though it’s bad for a lot of reasons you still cover so much space

[frank crystal]

Wait why?

[clever cobalt]

Mounts kinda suck

[frank crystal]

They do?

[solar storm]

Mounted champion has been very good ime

Albeit this has been with a size small champ on medium mount which is better

[barren cipher]

yeah, they have distinct strengths and weaknesses but they were clearly a bit of an afterthought and they (rather sensibly) erred on the side of caution a lot

[surreal basin]

Easier to hit

With AOEs

Easier to flank

Difficult terrain in spaces smaller races could move through easy

In exchange for basically exclusively VERY SLIGHTLY better grapple and a technically improved reach

But the improved reach thing is overstated imo

[frank crystal]

Not imo

I feel like AOO is extremely strong

[surreal basin]

What…. Do you mean not imo

Oh

OH yeah

Okay

Eh? Kinda

[frank crystal]

Controlling more grid space is extremely strong in my experience

[surreal basin]

Idk

¯_(ツ)_/¯

I think it’s worth getting flanked easier

Or like

They balance each other out

Is what I mean

[frank crystal]

If for nothing else then because it stops things from even trying to move through your reach

[surreal basin]

AoO can’t disrupt movement

Even on a crit

[frank crystal]

Yah but it can punish movement

[surreal basin]

I mean… yes

[frank crystal]

Which is still discouragement

[surreal basin]

I guess

To be clear

[frank crystal]

Also the list of manipulate actions is super long

[surreal basin]

Large PCs don’t actually get reach

They just cover more squares adjacent to them

But I think that’s more a problem in theory than in practice

[frank crystal]

I know, I’m referring to total grid space covered

And how it’s multiplied by reach far more then a medium creature

[surreal basin]

Yeah I mean

I think it’s strong but balanced by practical downsides

[frank crystal]

Fair enough

[surreal basin]

Also more effected by terrain

It’s harder to avoid stuff

And harder to move through gaps in enemy formations

[pastel bane]

Hey how long does Abyssal Pact take to cast?

[surreal basin]

1 day

[pastel bane]

Wait nvm only demons can summon other demons ig

[surreal basin]

Yeah it’s not for players

For them you want Planar Ally

[pastel bane]

Problem: that’s for divine guys

I am a Thaumaturge

[barren cipher]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rituals.aspx?ID=120

[pastel bane]

Hey what’s the best undead to use for Create Undead at second level?

[surreal basin]

For what purpose?

[pastel bane]

Chicanery

[worthy stump]

skeletal soldier seems the best overall for that creature level? none of them seem too good overall, tho

[frank crystal]

Ok so here’s what I got for my dungeon meshi character builds so far

Laios: Human Fighter with a focus on heavy armor and sword and board (respecing to free hand fighter and recall knowledge after losing his shield)

Marcille: Elf School of the Boundary Wizard who rocks primarily fire based combat magic+utility spells

Chilchuck: Halfling Mastermind Rogue with maxed out perception and thievery

Senshi: Dwarf Outwit Ranger using two handed weapons and crafting with a cooking focus

Namari: Dwarf Fighter with a two handed weapons build and crafting specialization

Shuro: Human Fighter Ranger multiclass fully optimized and as minmaxed as I can make it

Falin: Human Life Oracle healer and anti undead character

Izutsumi: Monk with the thief rogue archetype also as minmaxed as I can make it

I’ll probably try building Kabru’s party and the Canaries eventually too

[rustic cape]

I assume we’re using a variant on the Kingmaker cooking expansion?

Also if you really want to min max Izutsumi you gotta flip it around, Thief Rogue with martial artist stuff

Imo

[clever cobalt]

Anyone got a link to the PF2e Reddit discord? I left during the whole drama thing, but I wanna rejoin now

[frank crystal]

That’s a thing?

If so yes

[frank crystal]

Also yah probably, though I do think monk suits her better?

[rustic cape]

Yeah Kingmaker 2E has enhanced cooking rules

There’s not a lot to start with so

[frank crystal]

Then yes absolutely

Also huh, beastkin is definitely gonna be izutsumi’s heritage but idk what to do for the main ancestry

I guess human

[turbid dagger]

awakened animal

[frank crystal]

Oh yah probably

Forgot that was added

Awakened animal beastkin with the beast being human

Also yah rogue is probably better thinking on it more

Because if I go beastkin or awakened animal I’ll have access to some claw attacks anyway

Could actually do like, claw dancer rogue

[rustic cape]

… I was just about to say, yeah

Clawdancer is sick

[frank crystal]

Also what do y’all think would be the best way to do Tade?

[barren cipher]

minotaur barb probably

[frank crystal]

Idk Minotaur feels kinda weird even if it’s just for large

[turbid dagger]

Come Tian Xia Character Guide there is going to be, iirc, a size large half oni ancestry iirc?

So yknow

[frank crystal]

Oh shit really?

Then yah whenever it comes out that

[turbid dagger]

The 'size large' and 'half oni' may be disconnected but both are coming in tian xia part deux yeah

[frank crystal]

Also admittedly I don’t know wether to go fighter or barb

Just because like, she actually gets mad

But it is thematic for dumb character swinging around oversized club

Actually I could make Kuro a barb

He has a few instances of going feral

[rustic cape]

Battlezoo has an oni ancestry

Fwiw

[frank crystal]

Oh neat

[barren cipher]

she doesn't seem very, like, precise or technical

[frank crystal]

That’s fair yah

She swings her club like a literal baseball bat

Also part of me wants to make Kuro Mickbell’s rage phantom eidolon but that doesn’t right lol

Holm is definitely gonna be a summoner

It makes so much sense for him

Also I feel like a precision ranger works kinda best for Kabru

He kinda just goes for the organs every time he fights

But he wears to much armor to be a rogue

[turbid dagger]

Investigator?

[frank crystal]

Oh shit actually yah that works way better

Because my worry with ranger is that would make him way to competent at dungeonering

But social deduction and planned out ways to attack is his whole thing

[solar tendon]

investigator bounty hunter

gives you some ranger features but essentially only for humanoids

[frank crystal]

Can investigators use strength weapons and medium armor?

[frank crystal]

Yah a good choice for archetype

Actually I think Dex would be better then strength for him

He uses a short sword and dagger after all

[solar tendon]

mm

devise is agile/finesse

or sap just cause (which is agile anyway)

[frank crystal]

Ah ok

[solar tendon]

but yeah shortsword so that's fine

[frank crystal]

Is there easy way to get medium armor prof?

[solar tendon]

it's a general feat now I think?

[frank crystal]

Oh nice

[barren cipher]

sentinel too if you have light already

[solar tendon]

armour training (general) gives you expert at level 13 but not master at 19

[frank crystal]

Ah this build won’t be higher then 5 anyway

So that doesn’t really matter

[solar tendon]

mm

[frank crystal]

Unfortunately Hien and Benichidori don’t really do enough on screen to say what they should be so I guess just, arcane trickster rogue for both

Maizuru, probably just best as a protean form wizard with how many weird curses she has

Though witch may be more thematic with her curses

[echo briar]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6v34x?Starfinder-Playtest-Preview-Solarian

[frank crystal]

Solarions seem sick

[limber comet]

I wanna date Dae

[echo briar]

In a hypothetical PF3, do you think they will keep spell slots?

[barren cipher]

probably

[turbid dagger]

I dont see a reason for them not too
I personally could do without but its not like the majority of the market is saying 'spell slots suck'

[silver geyser]

Spell splots, while annoying, are better than most of the alternatives.

[tough perch]

i do feel like the continued use of spell slots starts off from a "spell slots are an essential part of the game" than a "this is the best mechanic for this thing for sure"

[barren cipher]

yeah, the world wasn't ready for an alternative in 2008

and it probably isn't ready now

[tough perch]

not to say they have a thing they want to do for the main magic system other than that, but more that it's basically already decided so they don't think about alternatives very much

but i can imagine an early playtest involving different kinds of main magic systems for a third edition, you know to gouge the reaction

like sure, it definately wouldn't fly now

but who knows, maybe other RPGs become popular before the end of 2e, and some use different systems for spellcasting, making the fantasy d20 rpg public more receptive to such a change

[warped orbit]

I personally hope we're gonna move away from spell slots in future editions

[true delta]

I love this.

[solar storm]

I actually do like vancian casting, though I think for PF2 it feels sort of "odd one out" for a game which is significantly less concerned with daily resource attrition than a lot of its peers

[echo briar]

I kinda like the idea of having player resources be per encounter, but the party shares a resource that’s replenished every rest

[warped orbit]

Yeah I don't mind slot casting per se, but I do feel it has some friction with the rest of the game in terms of pacing

[frank crystal]

Hmm, so I’m building a Ruffian rogue and I’m taking a kopesh for my main weapon. I’m wondering if y’all think I should keep my free hand for grapple or if I should just grab a shield because I primarily wanted the kopesh for trip

[solar storm]

If you're not planning on doing a lot of grabs a shield is nice

And you already have trip

[frank crystal]

Yah, though are there any other items that could be nice for an off hand?

Ok yah looking there’s nothing with grapple and parry

[silver geyser]

Torch

[frank crystal]

So I’ll probably just grab a shield

[frank crystal]

Ah shit you’re right

[silver geyser]

It is an often overlooked thing, but having a way to see is incredibly helpful

[frank crystal]

I could always play a dark vision ancestry though

Idk which one but I could

[silver geyser]

Indeed!

[frank crystal]

Though actually yah picking up some torches or a lantern is probably the correct play

I want this guy to be a human

It’s key to his look that he’s just some guy

He’s kinda meant to be “random bandit mcgee” turned adventurer

[warped orbit]

wayfinder is also an easy hands free light source

[frank crystal]

Don’t those need to be held?

[echo briar]

Or just the light cantrip from one of your party members

[warped orbit]

wayfinder is worn

[frank crystal]

Ohhh

So you just use a free hand to cast light then put it on you for a free light source

Nice

Also if I’m gonna give this guy a shield I think I’m just gonna add a gun shield for fun

[frank crystal]

Oh wait I just realized the Kopesh doenst work for ruffian

It’s a martial weapon and those only work if they’re a d6 or lower

Not a d8

Fuck

[warped orbit]

yeah unfortunately

do think they were a little too strict for Ruffian maybe

[frank crystal]

Yah probably

[vast burrow]

How useful are Sly/Impossible Striker really

Like, I know there are some enemies who are immune to flanking, but what about Prone? The entirety of the Off-Guard condition itself?

[warped orbit]

they're fine, but not that amazing IMO yeah

though I guess Rogue's level 20 options are a bit limited

[vast burrow]

Eyup

[warped orbit]

Hidden Paragon or Enduring Debilitations are probably still better though

[vast burrow]

Huh, really? Enduring Debilitation?

[warped orbit]

I mean yeah
it's one debilitation of your choice active for basically the whole fight
and means you can stack them

[vast burrow]

Oh wait, do Debilitations not have a 1 character only limit

[warped orbit]

especially since one of Thief's options is just making your target Off Guard

oh wait, they are exclusive, nvm

it's just only in the term definiton in the sidebar

that does make that a lot worse

[vast burrow]

Wait which sidebar

[warped orbit]

Debilitation: Debilitations apply conditions and other negative effects to a creature. When the creature is affected by a new debilitation, any previous one it was affected by ends.

[vast burrow]

But they don't immediately disappear when you apply debilitations again to a different character, so theoretically I guess you could throw a knife at one enemy making them Off-Guard for the entire fight then just beat up other mfs for the rest of the battle

[warped orbit]

though Hidden Paragon is still a bit better IMO, as a better version of Greater Invis

[warped orbit]

you could switch targets, yeah

[vast burrow]

Oh yeah I'd say Hidden Paragon is probably the best choice tbh

[warped orbit]

Sly Striker also has the "issue" of being up against Opportune Backstab

though you could perhaps go back at a different tier and grab it

[vast burrow]

Ahah yeah, right

Well I already have Opportune Backstab, so probably not gonna take that one then

Opportune Backstab + Preparation (and Gang Up optionally) is such a funny combo though

Yes it leaves you with 0-1 actions on your turn, but you're one Flurry Ranger away from 3 or more MAPless strikes!

[warped orbit]

it's nuts

so strong, especially if you get reach

[vast burrow]

Oohh yeah

[warped orbit]

with Gang Up and reach, you just make most enemies around you flanked all the time as long as you have an ally around

[vast burrow]

Unfortunately I'm going Unarmed for this one to really channel in the

energy

[warped orbit]

unarmed is also good

[vast burrow]

(This is literally where the entire build idea came from)

[warped orbit]

really surprised they decided to buff Gang Up lmao

[vast burrow]

Oh wait it's buffed?

Oh it makes enemies off-guard for your allies as well now

Yeah that's pretty substantial

[warped orbit]

yeah it used to work only for you, now it benefits allies as well

[vast burrow]

Anyways I'm probably going Monk Archetype(rather than Martial Artist for Flurry of Blows and Monk Moves) and going....Wolf Stance into Wolf Drag? For y'know, when the enemy can't be Flanked

[warped orbit]

so any time an enemy is in threat of both you and an ally, they're flanked

Wolf Drag is great yeah

[vast burrow]

Then just keep looping Precise Debilitations and Head Stomp

[vast burrow]

Don't some ancestries get a feat like that too? I remember at least one having it

Oh it was the Beastkin one

Pack Tactics

Though that one works like the old Gang Up instead of the new one

[crystal walrus]

hey so a friend of mine is looking to get into pf2e

is there like a video tutorial series?

[solar storm]

I’ve seen some around but don’t know which one is best

[solar tendon]

I kinda like the idea of vancian casting evolving into a like

do a different thing each turn but have encounter based resource

[frank crystal]

There’s nonat1s videos but like, he has gotten some things wrong a fair amount before

But they were partially how I learned the game when I was getting into it

[carmine egret]

Rules Lawyer has a very specific vibe that can sometimes be grating BUT he also has multiple videos showcasing extended demonstrations of the game as a mechanical exercise, which I've considered very helpful

[turbid dagger]

'very specific vibe that can sometimes be grating' is RPG youtubers in a nutshell in my experience
Its all about findin the one that is not grating to you

[frank crystal]

Yah kinda

Is there anyway to make a healing wizard or is there no real healing spells on the arcane list?

[warped orbit]

Arcane doesn't really do healing

[frank crystal]

Yah that’s what I thought

I’m trying to adapt some FFXIV characters for fun but sage is proving difficult

[turbid dagger]

Alas, thats its key downside
I think the only way I can think of to get an arcane healer at all is taking one of the Arcane Sorcerors and getting Crossblooded Evolution

[frank crystal]

It’s a kinda battle healing mage with a very academic vibe but like, none of the healing capable classes fit

I think I may have to go with Oracle

They’re not an int class but they at least can have discovering the universe vibes

Poison ammo is a thing right?

[warped orbit]

you can poison ammo, yes

[frank crystal]

Ok sweet

[warped orbit]

the upside is you can pre-poison a bunch of ammo, the downside is you only get one try each unlike with melee weapons

[frank crystal]

I assume it just cost money to buy but is cheaper to craft?

[warped orbit]

it's just applying alchemical poison, like usual

[frank crystal]

Ah alright

[warped orbit]

there might also be some alchemical/magical ammo that's poison flavored

[frank crystal]

Is there skill feat that lets you craft poisons better?

[warped orbit]

not really I think?

for going heavy into poisons you'd probably want Poisoner or Alchemist dedication though

because actually buying/crafting that much poison would get pretty expensive

[frank crystal]

Ill probably just grab the basic alchemical crafting feat

This character isn’t meant to use that many

And it’s going bard archetype already anyway

[surreal basin]

Witch can be healing

And is Int

There are some divine and primal witches and majority are occult which has some heals

[frank crystal]

Oh shit you’re right

I forgot witch was an int class

I’ll probably go with one of the primal patrons then

Makes more sense for this then divine does

[tough perch]

also possible to get divine or primal through archetyping and picking up a staff of healing

[frank crystal]

I mean yah but this is meant to be a healer character

Not just a normal wizard who can heal

[rustic cape]

I HAVE ENCOUNTERED THE OTTERS

In Quest for the Frozen Flame

[frank crystal]

Are they nice?

[rustic cape]

I believe they are about to kill my party member ||for drinking from their sacred pool||

[heavy fulcrum]

it happens to the best of us

[rustic cape]

We persuaded them to stand down

[true delta]

Man, I've gotta run that. Otters? Hell yeah. Glad to hear they decided to turn the otter cheek, gk.

[clever cobalt]

Damn my friend wants to host Kingmaker

But none of us can afford the Foundry module

[barren cipher]

try socialism

[eager mountain]

communism exists in gollarion.

( unrelated, THE RED KOBOLD )

"The Kobolds of Golarion have nothing to lose but their chains!"

[surreal basin]

Oh! I’ve finished the first book of stolen fate now

Really good adventure

[young chasm]

do you still take damage from phantasmal killer/vision of death if you're immune to death trait?

oh nvm found the answer (yes)

[surreal basin]

In one of PF2E weirdest/most open to interpretation rules, yes

[sudden lark]

Is there a mage guild or analogous organization in 2e Golarion?

Like, a canonical one.

[solar tendon]

not like internationally

the magaambya is a school in the mwangi expanse with an international humanitarian presence tho

[sudden lark]

Oh

Do they accept international students?

[solar tendon]

i guess the other closest would be the magic subfaction of pathfinder society?

ye

[sudden lark]

Gotcha!

I wanted to make a noblewoman mage who has an affinity for martial arts and is part of a larger mage organization.

(Wizard with Martial Artist dedication.)

Also we can still straight multiclass, right?

[limber comet]

There's a ton of mage organizations tbh

Every region of Golarion has them

[sudden lark]

nodnod

Huh there's legit a wrestling dedication.

(The character concept, which I got from one of my friends, is an exorbitantly wealthy mage who loves professional wrestling.)

[true delta]

Somewhat off topic but I remember a youtube video about someone abusing some whacky AD&D rules to turn his wizard into a wrestling glass cannon.

[rustic cape]

And it's pretty strong!

[unborn rain]

Wrestler is a really good pick for any free hand melee build

[rustic cape]

Some of it is even good if you just have a gill hook

'cause gill hooks are awesome

[sudden lark]

I hope Monster Core gets rid of the "dragons are locked to X personality" thing.

[rustic cape]

They did

Well, for some of them, it depends

Some of them are described in more "this is typical" terms and some of them are conspirator dragons

Who are uh

Conspirators

[surreal basin]

Wrestler who uses the archetype moves while in battle forms is actually a really good idea

[rustic cape]

I'm generally delighted with how many different schticks a rogue can have

[vast burrow]

Does Underhanded Assault combo with Powerful Sneak? Like, use Underhanded Assault to Sneak adjacent to an enemy, succeed on the check making you Undetected(even though you're Observed?), designate the target with Powerful Sneak, then Strike gaining the second benefit of Powerful Sneak?

It's not specifically spelled out but the feats feel specifically worded enough for it to be an intended interaction

[rustic cape]

Since Underhanded Assault calls out that you Sneak by name, I would say they do work together, with a but

But "when you Sneak, you can designate one creature you’re undetected by at the end of that action. On the next attack you make against that creature before the end of your next turn," is the verbiage, so while the sensible interpretation is that it applies to the Strike made as part of Underhanded Assault, there is a RAW reading that it would apply to the next attack you make after the strike portion of Underhanded Assault resolves.

That said, said RAW reading is ... asinine?

[vast burrow]

Mhm, so it works, but with a bit of variable interpretation on if the Strike is "part of the action"

[rustic cape]

That would be my close read, yes

[vast burrow]

Gotcha, I'd probably rule that it works, since Underhanded Assault already is niche by itself, so a little bonus like this can't hurt

[rustic cape]

It depends on whether an action taken as part of another action is itself a discrete action, which is maybe my least favorite question ever

[vast burrow]

Aye fair enough

[rustic cape]

I would definitely allow it

[vast burrow]

Tangentially related actually, does attacking, or doing any other actions apart from those listed under Sneak and Hide while Invisible make you Hidden rather than Undetected, or is it really only Seeking? Like would stabbing someone in the gut or shooting them with an arrow count as "other effects that might partially foil invisibility"

[sinful gyro]

Sorry for the ping but I'm not sure they were recommended yet, this is the video series you want
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhe3ugddFPM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLkZ5U5H51g

Very easy video series for new folk

[solar storm]

gunslinger moment

(this is level 2)

[warped orbit]

the Bane ammo though lmao

[solar storm]

yeah lol

[warped orbit]

oh a shobhad, neat

[solar storm]

Yeah GM is allowing fairly exotic characters

[warped orbit]

yeah it's fine tbh
IIRC it's basically just an arquebus with backstabber, but you now need to deal with Volley

[solar storm]

Yeah mechanically its not that strange but then narrative is sort of wild

[warped orbit]

yeah true haha

[echo briar]

I think I found a use for approximate. If you know that atoms exist, you can use a few castings of it to tell appropriate molality

Vaguely tell the PH of any substance by naming H+ and then OH-

[fossil garnet]

woooo Pathfinder session finished!

We scared a giant squid off from our boat, landed on the cursed island, and I got stealth jumped by a giant leech and am now Drained ()

I don't like Drained. I am a level 2 Wizard with an 8 CON

[echo briar]

You could also name various food born pathogens to tell how safe food is if you have germ theory

[solar storm]

I don't think those really qualify as "see clearly"

[solar tendon]

wait oh no

doesn't that mean raw approximate only tells you the amount of the object that isn't occluded

approximate actually seems incredibly good ngl

just. not good for anything relevant to an adventurer

although eye for numbers is better for some tasks

[solar storm]

Yeah its a really pretty nice spell for a lot of things which adventurers don't do

[solar tendon]

background: mid life crisis wagemage who used to be an approximator

[rustic cape]

I don’t really have a problem with games including rules that create emergent facts about their worlds in principle but I’m not sure about my position on them in PF2e

[solar tendon]

they can be kinda awkward

I think there's a lot of compromise in pf2e which understandably is a source of friction

[rustic cape]

Yeah

It’s in many ways a best of

But that does mean it has some rough edges

Personally I find a lot of those edges charming but

[dapper tusk]

i started GMing Rise of the Runelords, the first ever Pathfinder adventure

it's pretty good

but the tone definitely darker than i expected

also with ||a miscarriage being an essential plot element||

[echo briar]

Early on, Paizo wanted to stand out. Being edgy was part of that.

[turbid dagger]

As I understand it PF1e started out straight-facedly Trying to be edgier 3.5e
Because they were the cool kids saying Fuck You to Hated 4e

So not surprising for the First Ever Adventure

[echo briar]

After they became more established, they could focus more on telling good stories than catching attention

[dapper tusk]

i'd seen a tier list of every adventure path, which put RotR at the top tier and said it was still the best starting adventure for pathfinder, which is why i decided to run it

and i am still a big fan of "the players are trying to unravel a mystery in a town full of distinct characters and backstories" as an opening premise

[turbid dagger]

I hope you enjoy! I dunno much about it, in truth

[rustic cape]

It’s also that a lot of the leading figures at Paizo were more involved in the writing process at the time and are just kind of creeps. You see a lot less of that now largely because they’ve sorta been increasingly kicked upstairs throughout 2E’s run.

[frank crystal]

So one of my players has not fully vibed with summoner and is swapping characters to a crossbow precision ranger build

[sturdy lagoon]

Rise is given a lot of praise for being Golarion's big introductory moment and for being part of a longer meta-AP. So it's placement is more often in the realm of "it's a classic". It's still a really good AP, that also still suffers from many of the same problems that later APs suffered from.

[worthy stump]

yeah, earlier content for PF1e was definitely in the edgy camp. which i'm glad they've moved away from

[sturdy lagoon]

basically anything in Garund before 2e needs a great big "presented as is but not representative of our values today" content warning sticker on the front

[surreal basin]

I mean maybe? But it still only gives vague approximations

I suppose it’d be casually useful to be like “okay about how many bottles of water do we have left” or some such

[heavy mesa]

Yeah

I have a soft spot for the very first part of Serpent’s Skull despite how problematic the AP is as a whole

Marooning the party is a great inciting incident for the plot

[turbid dagger]

Hey, what all classes have been confirmed for SF2e?

Like, any other than the ones that have been mentioned in the playtests
(I am wondering specifically about Nanocyte)

[worthy stump]

for the full SF2 playtest, they said there's gonna be 6 classes. Envoy, Mystic, Operative, Solarian, Soldier, and Witchwarper
https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6sihw?Starfinder-Playtest-Product-Announcements

and if they do the same as the PF2e playtest, i don't think there'll be any new classes on the full release?

[turbid dagger]

Well thats a shame
None of those but Envoy interest me much

[eager mountain]

yeah they accept people from all over the world

the magaambya's thing is teaching students, they eventually become teachers or head back to where they came from to help thier people the best they can

or just become traveling heroes

with the intention of turning out as much helpful people as possible

also helping them find thier place in the world.

[sudden lark]

Yay!

[echo briar]

I can’t believe Paizo stole sunzi systems from lancer

[surreal basin]

I think they’ve said that engineer and technomancer will be in the full release but not the playtest

[echo briar]

They said they will be in a different, early book I believe

[surreal basin]

Ahhh right yeah

Makes sense, wanna pay special attention to the tech boys

[clever cobalt]

I need a reason why a Gnoll might be in Otari. Any ideas, anyone?

[rustic cape]

Abomination Vaults?

[clever cobalt]

Troubles in Otari

[surreal basin]

I mean also, for what it’s worth, it’s entirely possible they moved there for like, work

[rustic cape]

An old clan ancestor is reputed to have lost their life in or below the keep in the days before it was cleared by Otari’s founding adventurers

[clever cobalt]

Fighter, if it matters

Potentially related to the Knights of Lastwall (which provide plot ideas for itself)

[rustic cape]

There’s been portents this ancestor has been made undead or something

And the clan has sent you to seek their release

[clever cobalt]

Got it

Thanks!

[rustic cape]

I dunno I’m just throwing shit at the wall

[clever cobalt]

No worries

I do wish we had more non-evil Gnoll characters

Only ones that come to mind are Anchor Root and that one Abolitionist

[vital kiln]

Got a probably stupid idea for a character, there any way to make your character extremely mobile in 2e? Like, constantly moving, parkouring on obstacles, bouncing off of walls, etc.

[rustic cape]

Various, yes

Rogue helps a lot

Just because of double skill feats

Tumble Behind rogue does a lot of what you’re asking for

[warped orbit]

mostly just needs you to get a bunch of the Athletics feats

Rogue or Gymnast Swash would probably be good yeah

[vital kiln]

Right, right

Thanks

[warped orbit]

there is a feat to let you wall jump explicitly

[eager mountain]

they have said they would announce what thier doing with mechanic and technomancer

[clever cobalt]

https://paizo.com/products/btq051y0?Pathfinder-Adventure-Path-210-Whispers-in-the-Dirt

First part of Spore Wars is up for preorder"

As political tensions propel the Inner Sea to the edge of continental war, the elf queen of Kyonin has asked you to represent the elven nation in an important diplomatic alliance. When an unexpected act of violence threatens to sabotage the alliance before it begins, you must swiftly learn the truth—a truth that promises terror and devastation and the start of an all-out-war with the demonic armies of Tanglebriar!

[tough barn]

Can't wait to have us take down that big gross dinosaur

[eager mountain]

Razmiran

[clever cobalt]

Looks like- yeah

[echo briar]

They should just put random characters on the covers of APs to keep the players guessing

[clever cobalt]

I like Ardax's drip in the Triumph of the Tusk 1 cover

[solar storm]

Hoping for thos sweet subscriber pdfs for PC2 soon

[clever cobalt]

Isn't that next month?

[heavy mesa]

OH NO HE'S HOT

[clever cobalt]

Most eligible bachelor in the Eye of Dread

[eager mountain]

august 1st

[young chasm]

friend is currently theorizing we get to fight ||treerazer|| in this

which makes a lot of sense

[limber comet]

It's 100% confirmed lol

Just not the details

[young chasm]

is it?

[limber comet]

Yeah

The preview art at paizocon showed big spore boy directly

[young chasm]

ahhh yea

[paper juniper]

can anyone explain in simple terms how spheres of might works

and how it interacts with the base system?
read it and im a bit confuzzled

[clever cobalt]

https://downloads.paizo.com/CurtainCall_PlayersGuide.pdf Curtain Call PG is out

as a Kholo fanatic, interesting

[unborn rain]

Common Kholo fan W

[clever cobalt]

(not actually very common)

[trail nova]

It's basically a lot of a special new type of feat, just with a different value metric and a focus on the standard action Attack Action that stuff like vital strike works with and not the full attack.

Each base sphere is the prerequisite for a lot of other feats

[frank crystal]

so Im making a dungeon for my game

any of yall got any advice for dungeons in this game?

[clever cobalt]

The Dungeonerrrrr

[frank crystal]

Its a family crypt with the old arcane defenses still active for context

also my party has a medic druid and water kineticist so like, healing is not an issue

[silver geyser]

Chokepoints and hallways are fun

[tough barn]

If you're largely using base PF2e, there mostly isn't a whole lot of attrition that makes classic dungeons work. Instead, I'd suggest using it as a way to make up setpiece fights, neat puzzles and/or tense RP sections, etc. The "5 Room Dungeon" style stuff works pretty well with PF2e

[frank crystal]

Makes sense, attrition is especially not an issue for this party

Could maybe rip off the gauntlet of Shar tbh

Big area with a few individual challenges the PCs need to complete in order to

[worthy stump]

yeh, attrition in PF2e only becomes a thing if you have a time constraint as well. if there isn't one, you're definitely better off focusing on those things Gobmas said

[pastel bane]

Hey guys how would I make a character like Maya or Meti in PF2E?

I need some help making a backup to my Dhampir Thaumaturge

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/blinking-eyes-white-guy-blinking-meme-what-huh-gif-26334323

they literally told us you do at paizo con

thats the whole point of the adventure

I know becuase i participated in a meme

https://fixupx.com/OnCallGm/status/1787888927250203064

[rustic cape]

Fighter or monk

Have you got free archetype

[young chasm]

not everyone saw it lol

[frank crystal]

Does monk have any way to get some higher AC without dex or armor?

Like beast barbarian’s animal skin feat?

[warped orbit]

Mountain Stance

[turbid dagger]

Mountain Stance is the only in class route, the Secret Technique is Dragon Disciple Archetype for Scales Of The Dragon

[warped orbit]

Dragon Disciple is also a classic trick yeah

[frank crystal]

What’s the AC on scales of the dragon?

[frank crystal]

Also yah forgot about that

[turbid dagger]

3 dex 2 item

Enough for a str monk

[frank crystal]

Ah rad

[turbid dagger]

Dragon Stance Dragon Scale monk seems fun
Or flashing sparks
Or temple sword + shield

[unborn rain]

Being friends with an alchemist or Alchemist dedication for the heavy armour potion

[warped orbit]

Drakeheart also helps yeah

[turbid dagger]

I've seen a chart that says drakeheart monk actually gets far and away the best AC in the game if you keep em coming

[unborn rain]

Yeah, alchemical items generally mean you're above level when it comes to item bonus to stuff

So as long as you can keep elixirs stocked up, which you can do pretty easily into early-mid levels with alchemist

[surreal basin]

Admittedly you have to have a second person play alch for the TA

That

[warped orbit]

it's heavy armor AC if you always use on level Drakehearts yeah

since Drakeheart is 4/+2

and then increasing to match armor runes later

[pastel bane]

Hey what does “imperial” mean?

Cuz an “imperial” sorcerer means that they had a powerful Magic user in their bloodline

[tough barn]

Imperial in the context of golarion lore is that they have some strong blood ties to one of the big wizarding empires in golarion's ancient history. Azlant, Thassilon, Jistka Imperium, maybe Osirion pharaohs

[limber comet]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6v7rn?Player-Core-2-Preview-The-Oracle-Remastered

New oracle changes

Rubs hands together

[thorny berry]

to repeat my comments elsewhere: I'm a bit skeptical. I feel like mysteries like battle, ancestor, and life were really dependent on the tradeoff mechanic to establish a unique mechanical identity and I'm not sure if it's really going to be the same to just pick out some feats that sound cool

I think my fear is homogenization (I kinda groaned a little at ~action economy~ being one of the big touted benefits) but it really depends on the specifics of implementation

[warped orbit]

I'm cautiously optimistic personally

[surreal basin]

I mean you are still kinda getting tradeoffs, just not in a literal curse itself

Also man I can’t believe we’re getting NPC core

[heavy mesa]

Probably Taldor too

Lots of the nobility do study magic, just not to the degree that the other big wizard empires did

The old Grand Prince was a wizard, just not a super powerful one

[solar storm]

Looks good I like strong options with a price over weird sidegrade gamesmanship

[warped orbit]

focus spells not being cursebound anymore will also be good for quite a few Mysteries

[surreal basin]

Also it wouldn’t really work as well with the way focus points have changed imo

[echo briar]

With how “the dead walk” scales, I wonder how much they are really sticking with “curses are pure downside”

[echo briar]

To this point, I could totally see they reintroduce this element via focus spells

[pastel bane]

How do I do the Meti build?

[warped orbit]

well the curse itself is a downside
though yeah it seems some cursebound actions might get better at higher curse

though I believe they said max curse will still be limited by level

[fast hill]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/805880814813970433/1260813968029515786/IMG_0936.jpg?ex=6690b002&is=668f5e82&hm=67fcbaf4740fa3ec3ce5b6758338bb6b9eb0477c63c5aa79990792786705ee65&

[rustic cape]

Heya, so the gf is joining the Frozen Flame game I’m in, and I’m hoping to have some class recommendations for her. A few things I’m considering:

1. We’re currently at level 5
2. The party currently consists of a caster druid, a metal kineticist with a focus on melee, a psychic with imaginary weapon, and me, a rogue with unarmed fighting and healing feats
3. We’re playing with Free Archetype, ABP and Ancestral Paragon
4. She’s not a lifetime TTRPG player and so lacks fluency in the language of game mechanics — simpler play styles would help her a lot
   Anyone have thoughts on what to recommend?

[unborn rain]

Barbarian might be good, it's got a pretty simple 3 action ideal and feels good to play. Especially thematically works with Frozen Flame

[rustic cape]

True

[limber comet]

I'd also recommend barb, or fighter maybe

Start out with a simple martial

[unborn rain]

yeah, a pretty basic martial is what that party needs and is the easiest to play for new comers

[barren cipher]

i would go champ if you can fit it into the ap

it's simple, impactful, has good personal defences if you bite off a bit more than you can chew

[rustic cape]

Right, that tracks

I’ll recommend Champ, Fighter, and Barb

[rustic cape]

This is actually pretty easy even with really typical flavor because it takes place right next to Mendev

We even just bumped into an ex-crusader NPC

We’re helping her kill a manticore

[young chasm]

maybe its just my personal experience but I’ve noticed a lot of new players tend to forget to use their champion reaction alot

[turbid dagger]

If I ever get into frozen flame I'm doing champ
Not a crusader tho- dex champ of Skode with a horn bow, a local 😌

[limber comet]

Is ranged champ possible?

[rustic cape]

Paladin is

[rustic cape]

Relevant point!

Anyway we’ll see how she feels about fighter or barb, they may not be her vibe

[warped orbit]

Mostly

[limber comet]

I mean if so then you could make it viable in sf2e if the ranged meta talk is to be believed

[warped orbit]

It'll probably struggle a lot more in SF2

Because the reaction needs both attacker and ally to be near you

[turbid dagger]

Shotgun champ melee dive buddy seems fun though

That MFer from half life 2

[echo briar]

Can a large creature fit though this hallway without squeezing?

Before and after this parallelogram bit it is 2 squares wide

[worthy stump]

teeechnically they'd have to squeeze, i think. but i could definitely understand not running it that way. diagonal hallways are a fuck

[warped orbit]

I think that would not be difficult terrain for a large creature

since yeah it is basically two wide

[barren cipher]

i'd do difficult terrain probably

[warped orbit]

Also to be clear, they could definitely fit without Squeezing, it would be difficult terrain at worst
You need a much smaller area for that to be necessary
Unless you just meant it to be difficult terrain

[frank crystal]

So what do y’all think would be good like, trials for a dungeon with a large central door the characters are trying to unlock?

[echo briar]

Campaign is going well

[clever cobalt]

Star Wars naming scheme

[limber comet]

Nah, there's not one named Griggle Frock

[frank crystal]

Any cool constructs the 6th level range?

[rustic cape]

The gf has resolved to play a leshy barbarian 😌

[turbid dagger]

Any instinct yet? Wardens of Wildwood introduced some new ones that fit leshies well

[limber comet]

Keep in mind, those instincts don't have bespoke feats

For whatever reason

[echo briar]

Space

They needed to fit a lot into the backmatter

[rustic cape]

Ligneous, so way ahead of ya XD

We’re doing free archetype though and she has yet to choose something for that

[turbid dagger]

Niiice
That instinct seems like it kicks serious ass, hope they have fun

[rustic cape]

Any recs re: archetype?

Sentinel is obviously decent, she was also looking at kineticist

[barren cipher]

dual weapon warrior is good for a laugh

if you're doing sentinel you might be able to start with champ instead and pick up sentinel at 12 when the scaling becomes relevant

blessed one is also pretty great

i love soulforger on any martial who can get 14 wisdom

[rustic cape]

I thought barbarians didn’t like the kinds of weapons that favors?

[barren cipher]

you just don't go agile on your offhand

turns your -5 strike into a -2

one of 'em being a shield can also be extremely helpful

it's unfortunate that you don't get shield block but if you could fish that up from somewhere that would be great

[rustic cape]

Oh huh

[carmine egret]

my current party

[surreal basin]

Is there anywhere I can see the class stuff added by wardens of the wildwood?

Since that’s not really the kinda stuff you can do mid-AP lol

[barren cipher]

probably just pathbuilder

[surreal basin]

Incredible

[solar storm]

Player Core 2 sooon

[surreal basin]

In a month now

[craggy thunder]

What class is top left?

[frank crystal]

Honestly thinking if I ever make a sword and board fighter I’m gonna use a kopesh

[carmine egret]

Rogue (also halfling, didn't resize the token properly)

[frank crystal]

Is he actually taller then the lady on the bottom right?

[carmine egret]

You know I'm not sure. She's a gnome, I forget how that difference tends to shake out.

[frank crystal]

Ah alright then

[craggy thunder]

I thought he was an investigator from the outfit lol

Is he from Absalom?

[carmine egret]

Taldor but met up with the fighter (right) in Absalom. The crew basically breaks down like this:

Country Girls are both Otari natives, though usually hang out at opposite fringes (lumberjack and beach comber respectively)

Rogue decided to travel abroad to sate his wanderlust and NOT because there was a lot of heat back home and his crime family family needed him out of the country. While in Absalom he met up with a former slave gladiator who had bailed on his manager (expected to get paid more after he was freed) and helped him get out of town safely.

[craggy thunder]

nice lol

[surreal basin]

Okay weird question