Pathfinder

[worthy stump]

unfortunately, yeah

[frank crystal]

What do y’all think would be good mechanics for a metal kineticist NPC?

Specifically an armored melee NPC?

[strong sonnet]

2 action combo: 1 action to summon metal armor onto yourself to gain +AC, 1 action to detonate it in an explosive burst

[frank crystal]

that would be sick

[surreal basin]

Oh my god adopted ancestry awakened animal to be someone raised by animals????

Ignoring the rarity of course lmao

[unborn rain]

Romulus finally playable???

[worthy stump]

Tbf, there is a raised by animals background, it’s just kinda ass

https://2e.aonprd.com/Backgrounds.aspx?ID=185

[frank crystal]

So I’m on a fate kick and I’m wondering if a spell who’s save doesn’t determine what effects are applied but rather what effects from a list you can choose from would work?

Like the spell has a list of effects and that list opens up more depending on the save the targeted creature makes

In particular I’m kinda thinking a spell that makes an illusionary copy of an organ you crush to trick the target’s body into reacting like you crushed that organ

With the choices being more severe with each worse result of the save

[tough perch]

would this be "i cast the spell. target rolls dice, fails. you then choose which organ you conjure and crush"?
is the idea is that you want to be able to choose an organ and the effect would be related to that organ, and thus a critical failure on the target's save would allow you to crush the copy of a more vital organ?

that feels a bit weird, i think there are no spells that allow you to make a choice like that after the spell is cast

[frank crystal]

Yes essentially

The spell would have a list of effects it could do, with the list expanding the worse the save is

[silver geyser]

Extremely Szyael Aporro coded.

[frank crystal]

Who’s that?

[silver geyser]

He's from Bleach, one of the minor antagonists. Has a move that lets him make basically voodoo dolls of a target that he can open up and pop the organs of.

[frank crystal]

Oooo

I was imagining more true assassin from Fate

[silver geyser]

Also fair!

[frank crystal]

Also while I’m still thinking of individual effects, this feels right for an arcane and occult spell

[echo briar]

I can’t believe Paizo is doing product placement in PC2

[carmine egret]

oh clearly this is a new Arcadian archetype themed around traversing urban spaces primarily constructed from earth and organic materials

[echo briar]

Speaking of player core 2, what archetypes do you think they will change?

Captivator was originally in APG before being cut for space, so I could see them adding back to PC2 with remaster appropriate changes

[young chasm]

https://i.imgur.com/FCpGgM6.png

just a casual 1063 damage

[echo briar]

Did literally no one succeed?

They're all lower level, but statistically someone should have rolled a 15 or so

[young chasm]

some of them succeeded but chain lightning ends if anyone critically succeeds

which no one did

[echo briar]

Well all of them took 53 damage, except the vrocks which I know have electricity resistance

And they took 10 less (what I believe their resistance is) and not half

[young chasm]

oh! you are correct i wasn't really paying attention to their saves

i'lkl let my GM know

still an insane amount of damage

[rustic cape]

You know, the brilliance of Quest for the Frozen Flame is that it appeals to one of the most fundamental TTRPG player fantasies

"I must adopt everyone and everything"

There are so many chances to adopt things

[echo briar]

Same with stolen fates

[stuck bane]

Oh? We’re planning on doing stolen fates act 1 after we finish act 1 of outlaws (alternating gms and parties). I hadn’t heard that but I’m sure my group will love that

When they found ||Mr beak’s soul gem|| in AV, instead of the book’s solution they decided ||to make arms and legs for the goblin doll body so he could walk around on his own and be independent again.||

[limber comet]

Getting to play more Kingmaker tonight

[solar storm]

hellll yeah

[rustic cape]

So far in Frozen Flame we have adopted everything

[turbid dagger]

Frozen Flame is so cool, I wanna play it so bad
High Fantasy Far Cry Primal 🥺

[rustic cape]

I'm having fun with it

We just hit level 4

So my rogue/martial artist/medic just got Wolf Stance

And head stomp

Plan is to go for Wolf Jaw Strike

[turbid dagger]

Head Stomp Wolf Drag Rogue 😌

[clever cobalt]

Wait Curtain Call is next month right

[surreal basin]

Iirc the big advice for RAW frozen flame is someone absolute needs magical crafting

[warped orbit]

or run ABP, but yeah

[turbid dagger]

Yeah I can't imagine your finding many striking runes in those elk droppings

[echo briar]

My gm just made one of the tribes people a crafter and called it a day

[limber comet]

Yes

[limber comet]

That's a funny idea though, that there are magical elk that shit out runestones

[turbid dagger]

There's like a 30% chance that's in Howl Of The Wild admittedly

[thorny berry]

oh that sounds sick

wolf stance rogue in general seems stylish as hell

[warped orbit]

unarmed Thief is pretty strong now I think

Wolf Stance and Stumbling are both pretty great

[limber comet]

It's not lmao

If only

[thorny berry]

stumbling feint remains insanely baller action compression

probably throw a demoralize into your turn since you're dipping cha anyway

[turbid dagger]

Then take dread striker and you have insurance if the feint fails
Two shots at making both attacks flat footed each round

[thorny berry]

dread striker seems like a cool way of doing a ranged rogue

synergy with pistolero reload if you go that route

[limber comet]

Pathfinder session was canceled due to roll20 issues

[worthy stump]

😔

[true delta]

When an AP states that the characters "gain access to" a specific skill feat, does that mean they get it or that they may choose it next time a level-up grants a skill feat?

[warped orbit]

The latter

[solar tendon]

or by retraining if applicable

[eager mountain]

Unless it’s like frozen flame

Which hands out a to of feats specifically for the adventure of you do certain things

Like “ the whole animal” iirc

Or take animal I think

Which I’m is neat, I’d love to see more adventures just hand out little feats and abilities

Like there’s a moment where a neurodivergent animal handling child info dumps at you, and if you indulge her and listen you learn to tame animals as a free feat

All other adventures I’ve seen just say you can take the feat normally if you unlock it

[true delta]

I'm reading it and have just shared a screenshot with a friend, captioned "ND representation".

Thanks for the tip

[warped orbit]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6up8x?The-Windsong-Testaments-Light-of-the-Radiant

so the whole "the Prismatic Ray will change in some way" was just a red herring it seems

they're just changing the name to Radiant Prism

[eager mountain]

see thats what Is aid, thier just gonna change thier name

[turbid dagger]

That doesn't surprise me, isn't prismatic ray an OGL thing?

[warped orbit]

yeah

[silver geyser]

Absolutely perfect.

[surreal basin]

Well, it could still change some in the book to come

I don’t see this article as saying that won’t happen?

[silver geyser]

That wizard is great

[trail nova]

I'm still putting betting odds on Arazni joining

[eager mountain]

What do you like about him?

[silver geyser]

Toy Wizard doing the real thing is just rad in general.

[true delta]

Where are the killer toys from?

[turbid dagger]

A new funny oneshot in the vein of Little Trouble Big Absalom and [THE LESHY ONE I FORGET THE NAME OF], where you are all Poppets on a daring heist

[true delta]

Neat

[barren cipher]

a fistful of flowers

[light gyro]

foundry automatically applying bless in its aura is SO GOOD

oh man they're not gonna survive this

[surreal basin]

Hmmm

[solar storm]

You just gotta believe in the heart of the cards

[light gyro]

they're attacking my solo severe monster's strongest save, trying to melee him without debuffs, and aren't recall knowledging for its weaknesses

[upbeat ridge]

Is this an AP? What’s the name?

[light gyro]

iirc its a new one shot for charity

https://downloads.paizo.com/PZO14001-SCE_TheGreatToyHeist_Pregens.pdf oh here it is, free pregens

[upbeat ridge]

Peak

[light gyro]

oh my god i just mis-played my way out of 7*8 hit points healing

[true delta]

If I'm not mistaken, the full free adventure drops this Saturday

[surreal basin]

I think I’ve decided to not do a research subsystem for my players doing some research since there’s no real like, pressure or anything

I’ll just have a couple check determining how detailed the info they get is

[light gyro]

(they survived)

just dropped the bomb on the party that this adventure path goes to (strength of thousands book 5 spoiler) ||fucking mars||

[clever cobalt]

I wonder what a Taldor 2e AP would.look like

What's going on there (beyond warmonging southern neighbors) that could warrant an AP

Aside from said neighbors ig

[trail nova]

I'd love an AP that's about the mess when the current Kelish emperor dies. WftC but with more "I show up with an army"

[clever cobalt]

What do we even known about the Kelish Empire?

[trail nova]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[clever cobalt]

Like, we haven't even gotten any lore on them in 1e

[trail nova]

Yeah. I've gone looking, because Taldor foreign policy is unfortunately an interest.

(Was I trying to write political marriage fanfic about Eutropia in a post WftC world? maybe. But still.)

[clever cobalt]

Fair

And yeah, like I said, Taldor is somewhat of an interest to me

Even if it's basically just "Medievel Europe in Golarion" per se

[trail nova]

(WftC is kind of interesting as a very "soft" civil war - as far as I'm aware there weren't any large scale armies moving about, it was all just very tense political maneuvering and deniable attacks.)

[clever cobalt]

Yeah, that's roughly what I recall of it

Well, we are getting a War Book in 2025

So maybe we'll get a large scale combat AP after that

[trail nova]

(My hypothesis is the pile of random claimants who the party never meets basically did it knowing that there was no chance in hell they'd win anything other than a few local territories, so they just stuck up a flag and offered to pull it down for "reasonable" concessions to one of the two major factions.)

[clever cobalt]

Yeah makes sense

Especially given the political situation in Taldor, broadly speaking

[trail nova]

(A few exceptions like the gnomes who did actually have some interest in independence and the ability to make seizing their areas by force very costly.)

[trail nova]

I'm betting that it will be "Eye of Dread situation explodes/shining crusade 2"

[clever cobalt]

My guess is Andoran vs Cheliax, or Taldor vs Qadria

[trail nova]

Yeah, those are also good.

[clever cobalt]

The former is more impactful in my mind

Since they're both regional powers, and it'll drag everyone else in

Very much a war you have to pick sides in

[trail nova]

TBF, Taldor and Qadria are also regional powers, it's just that they're regional powers at the edge of a massive blank slate

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[trail nova]

(Give us a Kelish empire book Pazio, Please!)

[clever cobalt]

Lost Omens: Casmaron

[heavy mesa]

I unfortunately do not trust Paizo to do Kelesh well

Like i know they knocked it out of the park for good representation with Mwangi and Tian Xia but Kelesh is a different beast entirely because we have next to nothing on it and its condensing way too many real life inspirations into a single political entity (unlike Tian Xia which isn’t politically united at all)

[sinful gyro]

They could just retcon it

[clever cobalt]

Sounds like a blank slate to work wjth for me, tbh

And ywah

Retconning 1e stuff is nothing new

Especially the less... palpable stuff

[heavy mesa]

Tian Xia and Mwangi actually outright retconned very little, what they did was change the presentation to be respectful and expanded on locales to add nuance

[clever cobalt]

Doesn't mean they can't retcon it though

[sinful gyro]

Sure, I'm just saying they could

[heavy mesa]

I’ve read Heart of the Jungle, a lot of the info carries over its just not written like an 18th century british explorer’s account of “darkest africa” anymore

[trail nova]

I'm always a little weirded out by the "oh, 1e lore is all dark and nasty" stuff because while there's certainly... not great parts, most of it feels very similar to 2e. Though I'm also not well read on the 1e Mawangi Expanse or Tian Xia.

It would not suprise me if those were worse.

[sinful gyro]

It's mixed, broard stuff is similar, but individual writers push their bit in various directions

[heavy mesa]

I’ve been re-reading Serpent’s Skull and comparing it to Mwangi Expanse to check, and yeah the jump in quality is noticeable

[clever cobalt]

Once again, 2e is where Golarion really found its footing imo

[trail nova]

(But the slavery retcon in particular maroons a lot of good bits IIRC, like the Bellflower network, or it leads to weird dances.)

[heavy mesa]

Though the first part of Serpent’s Skull, the bit where you’re shipwrecked on the island where the Chelish colonialists went crazy and turned into a cannibal tribe, is a neat if somewhat problematic reversal of the standard tropes

Its also like a pretty neat shipwreck scenario to put the party in a bottle

Yeah Golarion has never been able to find its footing on how to portray slavery.

Like who is buying all these slaves? All the info on Cheliax would have you believe that the flesh trade consists entirely of halflings sold to Chelish nobles as butlers

Katapesh and Absalom were huge distribution hubs for slavery but its rarely said where those slaves were being distributed to

Which of the squeaky clean “Lawful Neutral” nations in Avistan was buying up enslaved persons by the boatload, and why?

It couldn’t have been just Cheliax

[trail nova]

IIRC taldor?

[clever cobalt]

Taldor in 1e didn't have slaves IIRC

They "just" had serfs kept in near-slavery

[trail nova]

Yeah. Pazio really liked depicting the Slave trade, but not actually slavery

[heavy mesa]

Also its choice of slaves was more often than not Halflings

[trail nova]

… I guess the Elixir of Life nation or Osirion?

[heavy mesa]

Halflings would be relatively easy to enslave and keep enslaved due to their small build, but that same trait makes them like, not really optimal to run an entire trafficking industry around because they’re terrible for the type of backbreaking extractive labor that drove mass enslavement IRL

[trail nova]

Yeah. I do think that it makes a lot of sense to have a lot of Golarion’s slavery be in place of personal servants.

[heavy mesa]

Which leads to PF1e’s problem of having its portrayal of every day slavery being like, butlers for Chelish nobles who aren’t competent enough to enslave devils

[trail nova]

Rather than mass labor. But then it raises the question of why the slave trade is so big.

[heavy mesa]

Yeah that’s the problem

[turbid dagger]

Wait, your telling me there isn't some giant mine in Cheliax all the slaves are getting thrown into to explain the slave trade
I assumed they totally did have massive slave farms or something

[heavy mesa]

I’d have preferred it if like, Cheliax did crap like enslaving goblinoids and other “monster” races and used devils to keep them in line. Still vile but in the context of Avistan is a practice that would have been quietly ignored by most of its neighbors until the founding of Oprak

Halflings are terrible for mine or plantation work

It intersects with the issue of Cheliax being an evil colonial empire that hasn’t successfully done an evil colonialism for generations

[turbid dagger]

I assumed Cheliax would just go like
'lol'
And shove more smallfolk into the labor mill anyway

[clever cobalt]

Cheliax is definitely evil but there's kind of a mustache twirling feel to them sometimes

Lile they're evil because they're evil, not because they do bad things

If that makes sense

[heavy mesa]

Cheliax feels a lot like a paper tiger

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[turbid dagger]

I think its more or less meant to BE one
Its fading

[clever cobalt]

But also that

I was gonna say

[heavy mesa]

It has all the trappings of european imperialism but very little of the substance

[clever cobalt]

They're largely portrayed as in the Death Throes

Especially in 2e, after all their losses on 1e

[heavy mesa]

Yeah they come off as kind of a laughingstock

As opposed to like, Nidal

[clever cobalt]

I'm Reminded they lost like. 200 ships when trying to invade the Shackles

[heavy mesa]

Which is a successful and robust autocratic dystopia

[clever cobalt]

Like their entire navy took a massive blow to say the least

[heavy mesa]

Hell Azlant and Thassilon are better at being evil racist empires than Cheliax, and they’e over a thousand years dead

[clever cobalt]

What did Azlant do again?

Beyond being the Atlantis expy that Aroden came from

[heavy mesa]

Azlant is just like, generally Azlanti human supremacist

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

I know their "descendents" in Starfinder are like that

Didn't know how much of it was just them though

[heavy mesa]

So, the primary friction between Azlant and Thassilon is that Thassilon’s founders believed that “the lesser races” had something to contribute to civilization and the Azlanti government disagreed

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

[heavy mesa]

Thassilon also like ends up enslaving a ton of giants

[clever cobalt]

That I do know

[heavy mesa]

Karzoug’s inner circle is like filled with lamias though so Thassilonian race relations were probably really weird

[limber comet]

I wish I could gm

I wanna make an antagonist Rovagug cultist

That's just Ganondorf

[eager mountain]

lets see how that worked out

• checks notes *

lol the azlanti turned out basically to be Anthrochauvs

[surreal basin]

Yeah they’re douchebags

[limber comet]

Azlanti Star Empire aesthetic is super cool, very sleek and imposing

Fitting for big bad evil space facists

[eager mountain]

they blue ones are cool too

[limber comet]

I really wish the Veskarium had a more uniform...well, uniform design

For these conquering empires, having a sort of analogous look is really good

Like the empire in Star Wars

[eager mountain]

they might, idk

closest thing I can figure to battle armor

[limber comet]

Ah, to be fair the Veskarium is more about individual achievements than Azlant

[eager mountain]

true

[limber comet]

In Azlant if you're not a human, you aren't going anywhere

The Veskarium does allow other species to get into high positions

[eager mountain]

also THA SILLY

[tough perch]

i suggest giving it a try! pf2e has been one of the easier games to GM for, in my experience

also i know of a big ass homebrew document about making zelda adventures in pf2e

[trail nova]

Veskarium also strikes me as a bit Roman Empire-ish - very happy to have irregulars working alongside the army and not break up their units, just make sure that the units aren't anywhere near their homes.

[eager mountain]

cant wait for Empires devoured

[heavy mesa]

“And here comes the Dominion of The Black with a steel chair!”

[eager mountain]

I think its the devourer cults

[heavy mesa]

Ah

I am not current with SF stuff

So the Devourer is just Rovagug right?

[limber comet]

No

It's a black hole god

[eager mountain]

no

[eager mountain]

the devourer is bascially just a force of entropy and comsic destruction.

[surreal basin]

I mean the devourer could be related to him

Since Rovagug is nowhere to be seen and the devourer is suspiciously similar

[limber comet]

I wouldn't be surprised if Empires Devoured dropped the bombshell that Rova and the Devourer are the same

[surreal basin]

Yeah it’s my pet theory at least

That the devourer is his true unbridled form

[echo briar]

So we're playing stolen fates, and the GM has a nifty quest log. The problem is one of the quests is called ||Survive the earthfall||

what

||are we going back in time?||

[limber comet]

Good luck :]

[crystal walrus]

Sorry your gm is using AW principles and has foreshadowed future badness.

[clever cobalt]

Debating what armor style and aesthetic to give Avistani Gnolls

As opposed to Mwangi Gnolls

At least iirc there are some Gnolls in the Taldan/Shining Kingdoms area

I'm debating something nomadic or Mongolian inspired, but that may be a bit odd given the location

[heavy mesa]

IIRC most Gnolls are Garundi in general

[clever cobalt]

Ye

[heavy mesa]

there's the ones in the Mwangi expanse and the ones in Northern and Eastern Garund, separated by the mountain ranges

[clever cobalt]

That I know

But there's mentions of them in Avistan, at least in some 1e books

[heavy mesa]

I'm not entirely sure if there is a large gnoll population in Avistan

[clever cobalt]

Mhm

Gimme a momwnt

The majority is probably Garund

But there are definitely some outside of Garund

[heavy mesa]

looks up Avin

Ah the region of Taldor bordering Qadira

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

[heavy mesa]

so, likely related to the gnoll population in Casmaron

[clever cobalt]

Yeah, wouldnt surprise me

If it matters, the purpose of me asking all this is because I wanna make a Gnoll for a potential Kingmaker game, but don't know what vibe or lore to give them

[heavy mesa]

The orcish geographic range isn't confined strictly to Belkzen right?

in Avistan

[clever cobalt]

I don't think so

[heavy mesa]

Belkzen is neat but its actually a rather tiny region in the grand scheme of things

if you factor out the mountains

since Avistani orcs are pastoralists i was largely wondering how they fit all their herds in the valley outside of Flood Season

[clever cobalt]

Ye

We don't have much 2e lore ob Belkzen, to my knowledge at least

[heavy mesa]

We should be getting an Orc AP eventually with a sexied up version of Ardax White Hair

Last I saw some art that gave him the Impossible Lands Geb treatment

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, the orc ap will almost certainly give heaps of belkzen lore

[true delta]

I like orcs. I'd love an orc AP.

[solar storm]

Good news then, coming October with Triumph of the Tusk

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, I assumed Ham was talking about it

[heavy mesa]

Da Ladz are gunna, 'preciate dat

[solar storm]

I'm just adding the name and release date

[turbid dagger]

Oh no I ain't gettin on you, just elaborating I suppose

[fast hill]

howl of the wild is out right?

[clever cobalt]

Yep

[fast hill]

ah

[clever cobalt]

Been out for like a month

[fast hill]

ancestries not added to aon yet I guess

[clever cobalt]

They are on Foundry and Pathbuilder, if that matters

[surreal basin]

AON id still pretty behind iirc

[worthy stump]

i think it's just Howl they're behind on atm, but yeah, updating the site for the remaster really put them behind the curve compared to how fast it used to update for new books

[frank crystal]

Hope once they’re done with remaster 2 they get back to that old pace

The delay is pretty massive now

[echo briar]

And some AP books with some really cool stuff like 2 new barb instincts

Like they're AP books, but on the upper bounds of what an AP book can have

[worthy stump]

Oh right, AP content as well, yeah

[turbid dagger]

Wait huh? Two new barb instincts?????

[limber comet]

Yeah, last months Wardens of Wildwood release had a TON of player options

[carmine egret]

Oooo

[turbid dagger]

Are they available anywhere right now? Other than 'the book itself'

[clever cobalt]

What did it have in it?

[worthy stump]

they seem to be on Pathbuilder atm. Decay and Ligneous instincts for Barb are there, so i'd assume anything else is too

and on Foundry as well, i'd imagine

[turbid dagger]

Thanks bunches!! Decay sounds really cool

[limber comet]

Two barbarian instincts, two druid orders, two kineticist impulse feats, and a smattering of "wood related" ancestry feats

[turbid dagger]

Oh.
It makes your rage damage poison.

That's all that needs to be said, really

[worthy stump]

interesting

[turbid dagger]

Oh LIGNEOUS seems hype though
Giant barb damage scaling at the cost of a speed decrease
Which uh
Fast movement completely negates

[worthy stump]

probably... suboptimal, given how many poison immune things exist. but cool nonetheless

[turbid dagger]

And also if anything I like that it gives me a reason to use sudden charge

[worthy stump]

oh wow

yeah, losing speed for damage is a much better trade off than losing even more AC for it

[turbid dagger]

To be clear Decay also gives giant barb damage scaling at the cost of losing a small amount of health each turn you rage
But it also makes the rage damage poison
Which this doesnt
So like
uh whuh

[wary yoke]

I am joining my first PF2E game, and I am trying to choose a first-level general feat and I cannot find an answer anywhere

If a feat increases proficiency in something, and my class feature later does the same thing (ie, Canny Acumen to get to Expert in a save or Perception), do those stack, or am I just getting early access?

[turbid dagger]

Early access

[warped orbit]

Decay seems not great

Ligneous seems decent

from what I recall

both of them also don't really have any feats though sadly

[turbid dagger]

Ligneous feels weird honestly
Like
Clumsy permanently is not -10 feet speed
It may not have special feats but like
The normal barb feats and archetypes are there

[limber comet]

Yeah neither have feets

Feets?

Feats

[sinful gyro]

Picked up this and the toy heist today

Will send details later

But

Ferrofluid ooze

[vast burrow]

So, this is funny, with ABP, The highest AC you can get...is by being Unarmored(and having max Dex) because Explorer's Clothing has a Dex cap, which is has because in turn you can inscribe runes onto it, but you don't need runes with ABP(at least fundamental runes, property runes arguable)

....being naked is optimal....

At least at like, level 15 and up

Safe to say probably not intended though

[frank crystal]

https://tenor.com/view/tyler1-shirt-rip-gif-26569973

Rogues the second they hit level 15

[vast burrow]

LMAO

[frank crystal]

I’d imagine at that level of dexterity wearing anything at all feels restrictive

[vast burrow]

That one Spiderman outfit where he's just in his mask and undies

The optimal Rogue/Monk outfit

[frank crystal]

Most protective dex armor

[rapid wagon]

not coming from a lot of experience, but mid game, and we're discovering the scimitar is actually really good

forceful and sweep combined is fun

not on me, but our fighter

is just cleaning up in the encounter

[warped orbit]

forceful is a weird one

[rapid wagon]

its not like adding oodles of damage, but its making effectively everything they do slightly better

which is to say frequently multiattacking

[warped orbit]

my only issue with forceful is that it often gets the weapons its on to be downgraded a die step compared to similar weapons

which makes it a weird value proposition

unless you use something like Whirlwind Attack

because say you have a d6 forceful weapon, and a d8 weapon

on the first attack, the forceful weapon is effectively -1 damage
on the second, they are equal thanks to the +1 from forceful
on the third and onward, forceful is +1 in damage compared to the other one

[rapid wagon]

can battle medecine be used twice on someone if the first time failed?

or is one go; thats it

[warped orbit]

they are immune after the first attempt, regardless of outcome

[worthy stump]

mhm

or, more specifically, they're immune to your battle medicine, so someone else can still try

[rapid wagon]

so assurance in medecine is a good idea

would you say?

[warped orbit]

it's useful to guarantee a success on BM yeah

if getting some healing on someone is more critical than going for the higher DC

you can guarantee a Trained DC at level 2/3
Expert at 7 I believe

[worthy stump]

mhm, can be very useful if you need some guaranteed healing out of it

[rapid wagon]

parties just got no dedicated healer atm, and failed attempts constitute like a opportunity loss on fails

like having to wait an hour before trying again is rough

if you have any pressing time concerns

which we do

[limber comet]

Apparently the player core 2 classes are pretty wild

[solar storm]

sweet

I'm in a game with a lot of them so it'll be funny when it drops

I think we have a 5 player squad with

• gunslinger
• inventor
• alchemist
• oracle
• champion

[limber comet]

I'm in the Dice Will Roll server and the gm of the podcast gets early previews of new content

Maybe bc they're a pathfinder infinite partnered creator or sumn

[solar storm]

Oh I'm in that server too I should see what the word is

I imagine its pretty vague

[limber comet]

But they said these classes blow PC1 outta the water

Oh yeah

[solar storm]

This is where all the "complicated" ones were going after all

[limber comet]

Pathfinder classes are only complicated if you don't know how the system works fully, imho

[solar storm]

I mean complicated in that they were slated for more changes like Alchemist and Champion

[limber comet]

Oh yeah true

Alchemist I'm really interested in

Alchemist and Oracle are probably the classes I'm the most curious about

[solar storm]

Same haha

I'm playing and Oracle now and my gf is a big Alchemist fan so I'm watching closely

[limber comet]

I'd add swashbuckler too but Swashbuckler really only needs tweaks regarding their skills

[frank crystal]

Honestly I just kinda hope they give Oracle some more unique spells for specific mysteries

Like besides their focus spells

[solar storm]

Yeah some Mysteries really need that

Flame in particular iirc

[frank crystal]

Just because some mysteries kinda struggle with their gimmicks because the divine spell lists lacks some stuff

[solar storm]

I'm playing Ancestors so I have my own complicated and self inflicted problems

[frank crystal]

Yah I had a flames player and they were really struggling until they could grab some stuff from Sarenae

[limber comet]

I could be mistaken but I swear they were getting expanded spell lists depending on their mysteries

[frank crystal]

Oh shit really?

Nice

[limber comet]

I could be totally wrong but I swear I heard it during Paizocon

[frank crystal]

Also how did they describe the changes to curses?

[limber comet]

Uhhh

Good question

[warped orbit]

so AFAIK, the focus spells no longer increase curse

instead you have extra stuff with the cursebound tag, that does progress your curse

they said it would be stuff like free action spellshapes

[solar storm]

I also heard this

[frank crystal]

Ahh

[limber comet]

I know that it's a thing in Oracles+ but that's outdated lmao

[solar storm]

AIUI its no longer tied to your Focus Spells and is now caused by metamagics you can apply to any spells

[frank crystal]

Ahh

So any of your focus spells could increase your curse

But also could not

And all your normal spells can as well

[limber comet]

Oracle being the "metamagic" class seems cool

[frank crystal]

They are already kinda similar to sorcerers flavor wise

Having magic they don’t fully understand and didn’t earn through study

[limber comet]

I wonder if it's just one cursebound metamagic over the entire class or if each mystery gets a different metamagic option

[frank crystal]

I hope it’s mystery specific

Just because that’s cooler

[solar tendon]

2e oracle lore is actually like

[limber comet]

I can also confirm divine mysteries is adding new... mysteries

[solar tendon]

you do know unknowable priomordial truths

[limber comet]

Lol

[solar tendon]

you study the very essence of divine itself

and it burns you like reading an elder scroll

[frank crystal]

I thought it was more like, sudden primal divine energy is in you now, and that comes with divine truths just inherently

[rustic cape]

Frozen Flame time

[stuck bane]

Almost Outlaws time too!

Last time we left off facing some interesting characters ||a cactus leshy with a “gruff but high pitch” voice threatening us to hand over the dude we’ve been escorting for crimes against nature and all things that live||

Oh, and ||his gang||

[rustic cape]

I died ;_;

Went down to a crit from the boss when I already had Wounded 2

Motherfucker hit me for 42 damage

[clever cobalt]

F

[solar tendon]

that guy killed our gunslinger haha

[rustic cape]

I got reincarnated as a gnome.

I was an orc.

(I took dromaar heritage so I could keep my feats)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1127692441831608512/1217633999577681981/85_4_1522772938.jpg?ex=66781848&is=6676c6c8&hm=ab5bb80a1f6664cec2aea999f50c54046d6cc6e73fad93d39bf4970c6061c82d&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1127692441831608512/1254222978468679710/gnomed.png?ex=6678b5ac&is=6677642c&hm=13cf5a6597e3f0cdb7c9ac4b53960ce43a5532305a9d6f48445a59eb6defe3c0&

[worthy stump]

you've been gnomed...

[rustic cape]

@eager mountain

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/salute-gnome-chompsky-trollhunters-tales-of-arcadia-yes-sir-at-your-service-gif-5486969527584796722

[rustic cape]

XD

[stuck bane]

We ended up flushing that guy down a toilet (presumably he’ll return)

[rapid wagon]

Oh I missed the discussion but since we're converting our pf1 campaign into 2e, I'll be playing a champion. What should I know about the coming changes?

[solar storm]

Find out august first haha

There isn't enough substantial information out to make an informed character choice yet

[silver geyser]

You are not going to have the sheer smite damage and nigh-invulnerability to saves that Paladin got to enjoy in 1e.

[eager mountain]

I mean it seems pretty cool , I just dont got alot of info

[rustic cape]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=5249 oooooh

[surreal basin]

Careful with those new ancestry feats, they have some potentially major spoilers in them

The ones from season of ghosts

[vital kiln]

Anyone know if that Mechageddon Starfinder module is any good?

[fossil garnet]

Can I ask a rules question here?

For Pathfinder 2e

[solar storm]

ye

[fossil garnet]

It's about jumping

Jumping more than 3 feet vetrically is a DC 30 check?

[warped orbit]

high jumping is generally very restricted, yeah

though Powerful Leap lets you leap up 5 ft without a check

there's a lot of things that further enhance jumping and leap distance too though

[fossil garnet]

Okay, thank you

[warped orbit]

though you can also still clear a 5 ft elevation with a vertical leap if you Grab An Edge

but yeah in general PF2 treats gaining elevation as fairly difficult
jumping is difficult, climbing is also slow and difficult, flying is rare until later levels
and even stuff like stairs is usually difficult terrain IIRC

[solar tendon]

meant to be when going up yeah

[frank crystal]

what do yall think would be a good abilities to give to a street graffiti artist wizard?

[solar tendon]

exploding runes

[frank crystal]

Oh hell yah

[eager mountain]

oh right I do have some info

atleast

the aura seems like its gonna be cool

I like the idea

[paper juniper]

thinking of a class/archetype combo that would go well with my character concept of a literal parasite

so far i have aberrant bloodline sorcerer

what are some suggestions y'all have that i am unaware of?

[turbid dagger]

Summoner jumps to mind
It detaches in combat

[vast burrow]

If you crit with a Vicious Swing using a Fatal weapon, do you increase the dice size before adding the additional damage dice?

[warped orbit]

Yeah

[vast burrow]

Sweet

[echo briar]

why is it called "quest for the frozen flame" when ||the titular flame is never frozen?||

||cursed, yes, but its at all times very, very hot||

[clever cobalt]

What's some good PF Infinite stuff that isn't Battlezoo or Teams+?

[turbid dagger]

This seemed neat https://www.pathfinderinfinite.com/product/482788/Blood--Sigils

[upbeat ridge]

Beat me to it lol

[echo briar]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6up8x?The-Windsong-Testaments-Light-of-the-Radiant#discuss

The only change is the name

[heavy mesa]

Nocticula and Arazni having winemom tea time

[solar storm]

I don't see how that indicates that

Not that that was a serious post to be clear

But I don't see how that's proof or anything

[carmine egret]

How recent a development is the divine throuple, in-setting?

I gotta wonder how that kind of news reaches mortal worshippers.

Angelic messenger appearing before me, fiddling with their smartphone "Holy shit dude the goddess just changed her relationship status look at this"

[solar tendon]

thinking about it

[heavy mesa]

Nocticula and Arazni having winemom tea time when Sarenrae, Shelyn, and Desna burst in trying to give Arazni a "self-care makeover" when she really just wants to chill and drink mimosas with the other morally ambiguous recent deity

[solar tendon]

considering the original prismatic ray pantheon is just from a blog post, the remaster update is probably gonna kinda bring that in line with how popular a concept its become

[solar storm]

Yeah that'd be my guess as well

So a recent development

[carmine egret]

Yeah might come out in WotI

[solar tendon]

or like, more concretely 'retconing' it

if not a recent development in universe

[carmine egret]

I kind of hope not, like it wouldn't be bad but I like the streak of setting changes being new in the timeline

Wouldn't hate it though, it just makes me interested in divine relationships shifting

[solar tendon]

I think the extent of the current lore might be just this

(and the equivalent on the others)

[surreal basin]

i really hope that arazni gets added

i think that'd be very cute

buyt yeah the name is not the fortold change

[uneven wren]

Giving your players an Abadar Black™ cred stick but having them find it in the pocket of a dead member of the pact council who has almost certainly been replaced by a shapeshifter. Is very funny

Infinite money that they really can't safely use, evil laugh "how desperate will you have to be before you dip into that fund? Will you be able to handle the consequences?"

[limber comet]

I really cannot wait to play Starfinder 2e ugh

[eager mountain]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WMy1n8DE0gk?feature=share

[vast burrow]

Y'know, I'm surprised ABP has no mention of Reinforcing runes, I mean, it kinda makes sense, Reinforcing runes work kinda differently to Resilient or Potency runes, them stacking with the base shield HP and Hardness, as well as the game's philosophy of Limited Defense Unlimited Offense, but it feels in-line for it to scale automatically too

It's also kinda funny lore-wise in the world like "Oh no sorry we don't have anything that would make your weapon do more damage or your armor protect you better.....but we do have something to make your shield 20x as tough!"

[rustic cape]

TBF the various number scaling runes do exist they’re just only valuable to those who are insufficiently awesome

[vast burrow]

Huh really? In the Adjusting Items and Treasure section of ABP it says "Remove all potency runes, striking runes, and resilient runes."

Is that only for players?

[worthy stump]

i think you're generally supposed to remove them overall. but ABP as a whole relies on several GM rulings already, so, i could see someone doing that

[rustic cape]

Eh, maybe I just assumed they were still around because I’ve been playing in Foundry and my GM hasn’t edited them out.

[vast burrow]

Fair enough

[rustic cape]

I do kinda like that approach tho, it means you could potentially give a PC a powerful artifact or whatever but eventually they catch up with and even outstrip it

[echo briar]

Has anyone played sky kings tomb? of all the APs, its the one I've hear the least about

[rustic cape]

Quest for the Frozen Flame is so anime

I love it

[limber comet]

https://x.com/paizo/status/1805654717906792844?s=19

Paizo (@paizo) on X

Astute investigators might have caught the flash of a magnifying glass in one of our earlier Pride posts... Enjoy an afternoon at the cafe with Quinn and the mysterious case of the generous barista: https://t.co/VU4qRUvXxS

Twitter · Jun 25, 2024, 5:30 PM

[young chasm]

our first homebrew campaign: complete!

[warped orbit]

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo6uw72?Player-Core-2-Preview-The-Swashbuckler

[solar tendon]

ooooh

deterministic panache

[warped orbit]

Twirling Throw [one-action] — Feat 4

Finisher, Swashbuckler
Prerequisites Flying Blade
Your thrown weapons seem to defy physics as they soar through the air and spin back to you after a strike. Make a thrown weapon attack, ignoring the penalty for making ranged attacks within the second and third range increment. The weapon returns to your hand after the attack unless you critically failed on the attack roll.

Not all swashbucklers fight with honor, though. We’re introducing the new rascal swashbuckler style in the remaster! Rascals aren’t afraid to use underhanded tactics on the battlefield to show off their skills and thoroughly embarrass their foes with a Dirty Trick or two. They do what they need to do to gain the advantage and are happy to let their opponents drop their guard before striking fast, leaving their foes in their dust before finishing them off, perhaps with a Twirling Throw.
a new Style as well apparently

wonder if Tumble and Style actions will just gain the Bravado trait now

or if the tag will only be on feats and such

either way seems pretty good for Swash

[turbid dagger]

Monk with Beastmaster
Hot or not?
I'm thinking hot what with the 'spare action' problem

[thorny berry]

bit disappointing, I was firmly in favor of killing styles to make the class less rotational but hopefully there's enough additional bravado options to mix things up more.

[warped orbit]

seems good

you get a flanking partner and usually have an action spare to Command

[thorny berry]

and yeah beastmaster is a consistently pretty great third-action outlet which monk pretty consistently has

[warped orbit]

some Support actions like Bear also play well with Flurry I think

[warped orbit]

if this is the case, you can also now confirmed still gain Panache even if the target is immune

which could be very relevant for Braggart

and Wit as well

[surreal basin]

Ye

Technically was true before but

Good to have it spelled out

[echo briar]

When you buy APs, do you buy all of them at once or just when you need them?

[surreal basin]

I think that uhhh

[echo briar]

One one hand, having an idea of where the story is going ahead of time can be nice, but on the other hand if the campaign stops for whatever reason before the final book, you’re out a decent amount of money

[surreal basin]

buying all of them if you can is good practice

because yeah, knowledge of future events can be important

[frank crystal]

What would y’all do if you’re building a metal/fire kineticist NPC statblock?

[uneven wren]

Athletics check to climb something? Wrong, Helpful Steps

My favorite spell

Staircase

[frank crystal]

Alright I’ve got a lot of finished NPC statblocks finally

I’ll probably add more generic monsters though for future combats

Just so everything isn’t humanoids

Hell one of my new factions are kineticist so they have a big excuse to summon elementals

[surreal basin]

what level

[frank crystal]

5

But also I finished em

Besides a basic ranged and melee attack I gave them blazing wave and molten wire

Basically just taking them wholesale

Blazing wave is a big AOE cone of fire damage and molten wire is a special strike that makes them clumsy and get persistent fire damage on hit until they escape or break it

[vast burrow]

So the main advantage of one-handed weapon users is the ability to use the athletics maneuvers, as well as do stuff like take out and use potions right?

(Not counting stuff like Dueling Parry since twin-weapon and sword n board users basically get the same things)

[worthy stump]

If you’re going for a free offhand, then yeah, basically

[vast burrow]

I'm basically just wondering what I can do to justify my fighter only using one sword rather than like, two swords or one really big sword

Athletic maneuvers, potions, what else.....

[barren cipher]

i mean that's quite a lot

access to grapple while still being able to beat the shit out of people with your runed up weapon is quite a big deal

the freehand metastrikes from fighter are decent as well

[vast burrow]

Wait you can't attack with a Grapple weapon while using it to Grapple someone?

[vast burrow]

Also the what

[barren cipher]

i think you can but all the grapple weapons are pretty niche

[vast burrow]

Fair

[barren cipher]

this kind of thing: https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4780 https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4789

[vast burrow]

Oh that's cool

There are so many fighter feats

[frank crystal]

They get new feats basically every time a martial class is added

Or any martial feature tbh

[warped orbit]

It's their thing

They get all the best metastrikes

[barren cipher]

if all you do is look for a feat at each level with the words 'free hand' in it and pick those you will be in pretty good shape overall

[warped orbit]

Yeah free hand Fighter is very good

[carmine egret]

I'm very pleased with it

[vast burrow]

Yeah I know but just searching through them can be exhausting sometimes haha

Also metastrikes?

Oh as in actions that change Strike properties

[barren cipher]

yeah, it's pretty much "strike and..."

[vast burrow]

Gotcha

[echo briar]

I love the bard

[turbid dagger]

If an effect increases the vertical distance you can leap, does that only occur when you do the vertical jump option, or does it elevate how high over the gound you can go during a horizontal jump too
I ask because a Crane Stance Monk with Spry Sinews may be able to clear a 5 foot space with a horizontal leap if the latter is true
For funny faux-tumble through

[worthy stump]

i think it's only the vertical option specifically, but not sure tbh

[echo briar]

APs are so cool, but I wish they had pronunciation guides

[limber comet]

Yeah same

[echo briar]

I’m reading through strength of thousands, and I’m not sure how to pronounce half the characters

How do you pronounce Ignacl?

[silver geyser]

Igna like in Ignacio, cl like you're rushing through cell.

[turbid dagger]

Its Ignaci I believe
So uh
Ig
Nah
See
That's how we've been doing it anyway
There is something to be said for
Ig
Nah
Chee
But

Wait it would have to be two cs for it ti be chee right

[echo briar]

how about Tzeniwe?

[silver geyser]

Te-zen-i-wey

[turbid dagger]

I think we've just been doing uhh
Silent T, so
Zen
ee
wey

Or like, the barest ghost of a 't' before that

[turbid dagger]

.......hey
Has it ever been confirmed that Ammunition Thaumaturgy isn't intended to work with bows
I know strict RAW does not work but

You're so used to handling your implement, weapon, and esoterica in the heat of combat that adding a few bullets or arrows to the mix is no extra burden. You can Interact to reload a weapon using the hand holding your implement.

Not bolts, arrows 🤔

[barren cipher]

i don’t see a use for it

is that one bow reload?

[turbid dagger]

My thought is that bows reload as part of the action you use to strike
So the RAI may be 'you can use the hand holding an implement to perform the reload+fire action with a bow'

Maybe its just bad wording but like
Bow thaum FEELS right yknow
It FEELS like its supposed to work

[thorny berry]

I mean

does it

a notoriously two-handed weapon for a notoriously one-hand-focused class

(technically 1+ handed but cmon)

[barren cipher]

yeah thaumaturge is already good enough without adding shortbow

[thorny berry]

even then if you're set on it you could just use a bow weapon implement

I think

actually wait it probably has to be one handed doesn't it

okay yeah one handed only

[turbid dagger]

It is 1+ handed :3
But yeah, not a big deal but I noticed it while I was shopping around for thaum stuff
Cuz I just realized clawdancer doesn't actually work for Thaum so I need to rebuild a character I'm playing soon 😔

And while I realize pistol thaum is objectively good using a single shot weapon on a class that really wants to be spamming out attacks makes me sad

[thorny berry]

I always thought (repeating) hand crossbow felt pretty appropriate

[turbid dagger]

hand crossbows are lame though

[warped orbit]

IMO it should work

[worthy stump]

that's when you break out the air repeaters. pew pew

[turbid dagger]

The d4 air repeaters 😛

[barren cipher]

who cares about damage dice when you have fat flat bonuses

[worthy stump]

yeh, thaum gets the big ol flat bonuses, so the dice matter a bit less

my SO's been running them on his thaum in a Strength of Thousands game we're in, they work out pretty well. especially if you have ABP to just draw a new one if your mag runs empty, haha

[turbid dagger]

My basic thought is
I could do some weird stuff with a d4 weapon and use the flat bonuses to make up for it..... or I could like
Play a bow fighter
And get a weapon two damage steps higher, deadly, and +3 to hit compared to thaum
Its the same reason I don't really like dex melee thaum
I just can't shake the feeling with those that the flat damage bonuses just keep me in the game, instead of actually letting me shine as a damage dealer

[worthy stump]

well, you also have a bunch of things the fighter doesn't. whatever abilities your implement gives you, esoteric lore and its uses, all the weird stuff you can do with thaum feats

trying to compare other classes to Fighter in a DPR metric is folly in 2e

[turbid dagger]

But a str melee thaum with the right build can compete with fighter in DPR, is the thing

Slap stumbling stance on one of those weird MFers and you are doing hideous things to whoever you Exploit

[worthy stump]

that is also at least 2 actions to set up

[silver geyser]

Honestly, that's fine.

[barren cipher]

i mean that's your whole first turn right

you might not even get to strike, this is not cheap

i think i would anticipate spreading that over two turns in most encounters no?

[silver geyser]

If you had a spell that cost two actions to set that up, would you consider that a worthwhile action?

[barren cipher]

i mean not if it only got me to fighter dpr no, i'd rather just be a fighter and have a turn

[turbid dagger]

Spreading it out is fine also
Because all the sources of Stumbling Stance also net you Powerful Fist by default
So if you are very eager to do damage you can exploit stride punch one round, stance up punch punch next round

[barren cipher]

yeah that seems much more sensible, accounting for at least a stride every round when you think about what your damage is gonna look like is not a bad idea

it's only -1 to -4 damage anyway right

[worthy stump]

having to stride all the time is a reality my magus suffers in... 😔
but yeah

powerful fist is d6 dice on the punches, stumbling stance is d8

so at most a -4 average damage decrease on major striking

[turbid dagger]

Like uhh obv yall have play experience
I'm sure Air Repeater Thaum is good
But idk, I dont think I'd like playing it
d6 is the minimum dice I wanna work with as thaum, because at least then your Implements Empowerment is making your strikes do an unusual amount of damage
d6 agile is now slightly better d8 agile, which usually only monks are working with
And then you get the monk stances so you are working with slightly better d10 agile which is Wholly Unique

[warped orbit]

gotta Haste yourself all the time

[worthy stump]

please sir, my action economy... it's sick...

[turbid dagger]

I think my best bet for making a ranged thaum I'm personally satisfied with is this: https://2e.aonprd.com/Weapons.aspx?ID=338

Which like
I hate that its a crossbow but at least I'll be slinging effective d10s around at range

I wish there was a d8 one handed gun that wasnt the jezails weirdness 😔

I like the aesthetics of pistols but like
Fatal isn't really moving the needle on a thaum

..........ohhhhhhhh, but I can use Emily's crossbow from Dishonored 2 as the reference art
One of the few hand crossbow designs I've found cool

[surreal basin]

huyh

[warped orbit]

Alternatively, get a mount

[limber comet]

How unethical would it be to make the final antagonist of a Starfinder campaign just a Galactic Nova from Kirby

[vast burrow]

I cannot fucking believe Paizo announced that "The Prismatic Ray will be changing" and the change is a nameswap to Radiant Prism

That has got to be one of the greatest bait-and-switches I've ever experienced

[vast burrow]

Also weed leshy

[rustic cape]

I do like the new name tho

[rustic cape]

Second only to “we’re gonna kill a core god” and then picking the least interesting core god to kill (yes I am still pissy about this)

[solar tendon]

irori

[rustic cape]

Irori is pretty uninteresting in general but I think his death could be more interesting than Gorum’s

[heavy mesa]

yeah you could say that of lot of the "basic" good/neutral pantheon

[solar tendon]

fwiw from the start they made it clear that like, the god they were killing had to die for the storyline to work

so from their perspective at least if like, you find any of war of immortals interesting (which isn't a lot yet ofc) then gorum did cause/enable that

[heavy mesa]

Iomedae has always felt sorta contrived for example

like she's Aroden's "inheritor" but her vibes are completely inconsistent with Aroden's and paizo writers generally seem to not like her given how she was portrayed in the original Wrath of the Righteous AP

[solar tendon]

there's definitely some gods that would be extremely interesting to kill but that's because they would result in entirely new settings which was never the point of the storyline haha

[heavy mesa]

like she's there to fill the "fantasy jesus" niche

[rustic cape]

I do not think killing Rovagug would result in an entirely new setting

[heavy mesa]

As for Erastil, i legit don't get what his appeal is supposed to be

"Lawful Good but Folksy and Rural?"

[vast burrow]

I was about to say

The least interesting god would be Gozreh or Erastil imo

[rustic cape]

Rovagug was a lurking cosmological threat that kept the gods away from each others’ throats

[solar tendon]

gorum's at least a fairly iconic pathfinder god

[rustic cape]

But he didn’t like … do anything

[heavy mesa]

Gozreh is simple but in a very primal way. Their lack of characterization fits with their status as an embodiment of primordial elemental forces

[solar tendon]

one of the most front facing iconic's patron etc

[heavy mesa]

Rovagug's threat mostly manifests through his cult, which was pretty prominent as antagonists in the early APs

[rustic cape]

And you could still have that following his death

Hell you could even amp them up if you liked

“Now they’re scheming and feuding and his spawn are starting to go berserk etc”

[heavy mesa]

The problem with Rovagug's cult now is that its old vibes were thoroughly intertwined with the now dated takes on Orcs and Gnolls as "essential savages"

[vast burrow]

So...the argument is that Rovagug is actually the least interesting one to kill?

[rustic cape]

Other way around

[heavy mesa]

I mean Starfinder got rid of Rovagug too and it just replaced him with Rovagug 2.0, Black Hole Version

[rustic cape]

Killing Rovagug upends certain things about the cosmology and allows for interesting status quo changes without necessarily requiring everything to be altered

And like

[heavy mesa]

I respect Starfinder but The Devourer is transparently just an attempt to have Rovagug without Rovagug

[rustic cape]

They acknowledged this

In the “what if Rovagug died” prophecy they basically said it would lead to a war of immortals

But not this war of immortals

Like a cooler, better one

[solar tendon]

killing rovagug also basically caused an apocalypse on golarion

[trail nova]

Strength of community, everything and everyone working in harmony, is my take.

But also a bit of "pushing back the dangerous wilderness"

[rustic cape]

Erastil works better with alignment gone

[solar tendon]

both combined I would argue is a new setting

[heavy mesa]

Erastil feels a bit like a bunch of folksy trappings stapled together without a lot of substance IMO

[solar tendon]

because literally nothing is not affected by the setting now being a post apocalypse with a ton of dead gods and the rest fighting over the remnants

[rustic cape]

I don’t agree, and there’s nothing essential about Rovagug’s death that has to cause the apocalypse

[solar tendon]

which is an interesting story for sure, fun game if you want to run it

[heavy mesa]

His visual coding as a stag man is very primal but his rhetorical coding is like, small town vibes?

[solar tendon]

but the war of the immortals came first, killing gorum came from that

metatextually

[rustic cape]

That’s a writing decision in keeping with just about all of the prophecies being “and then the apocalypse”

[solar tendon]

I mean caydens was just like

[rustic cape]

Which honestly is very “well we had to kill a boring god”

[vast burrow]

To be fair, didn't prophecies stop working

[rustic cape]

Yes

Anyway you’re not gonna persuade me that this was not a disappointing bait and switch

[vast burrow]

Cool

[rustic cape]

He always kinda had odd vibes that didn’t quite fit with LG

[vast burrow]

Oh and also, to be fair too, wasn't he literally the god of war

I feel like there's some good poetic irony in there that the death of the god of war sparked a war among the gods

[solar tendon]

mhm!

[vast burrow]

Also something something Kratos Exemplar

Anyways we'll find out more when the book releases

[silver geyser]

Gorum is a boring choice until you look at the War of the Immortals cover and realize Szuriel is on it.

Not a good sign when the god of battles is killed and the book talking about that has the Horseman of War on the cover.

[echo briar]

Gorum was killed because a member of the Tolkien estate misread it as “Gollum” and was about to sue

I think they should have killed abadar

Baba Yaga brings Lenin to golarion, and he kills capitalism

I’m interested in how the god of war dying causes Arazni to become a core deity

The Urgathoa prophecy gives a hint, but what in that prophecy is true and what’s a lie is unknown

[solar tendon]

idk if they've been stated to be related like that

core is kinda arbritrary and not a particularly in universe group

[echo briar]

It feels like a missed narrative opportunity if nothing else

It would be anticlimactic if there was this big war amongst the gods, one of the major gods was slain in the battle/starting the battle, and then the next book talks about how a new deity becomes much more widely worshiped for something completely unrelated

why would they introduce her as a core goddess in the war of immortals if she is not relevant to the war of immortals?

[solar tendon]

well kinda my point is that like

[worthy stump]

I’d imagine she’ll probably play a big role in that plotline, yeah

[solar tendon]

she doesn't even need to be much more widely worshipped?

cause there's not really any criteria to core

it's just what deities appear in the 10 two page spreads in the deity section

[echo briar]

Not amongst players she isn't, and they are the ones that truly matter

so why is she now more relevant to players, other than Paizo arbitrarily saying she is. What are they going to do with her to make players care

[solar tendon]

like theres a huge variety in how much of a big deal each core god is

I think part of it is they've already made the players care

imo

[warped orbit]

I'd say it's more that people liked Arazni, so they are making her more important, yeah

[solar tendon]

like there's probably a few other options on a similar level but she's one of the big gods, especially in terms of stuff that appeals to 2e golarion I think

plus she's like

[warped orbit]

her new design got a lot of positive response
and her thematics also resonate with a lot of people

[solar tendon]

between mendev ending and her presence in geb and lastwall

she's practically the equal of iomedae already

[warped orbit]

and also her involvement with the Crimson Reclaimers in Lastwall, yeah

[heavy mesa]

Yeah Iomedae is so often seen by fans and devs as the personification of memetically annoying paladin traits

[solar tendon]

I'm not saying she's not gonna do shit in war, I think every core deity is probably gonna do stuff

[heavy mesa]

So cynical winemom Arazni looks better by comparison

[solar tendon]

but I don't think that necessarily that's gonna have anything to do with gorum dying -> arazni being in a book directly

and the rest of the core gods aren't gonna be like "our club needs 20 members and gorum died so now accepting applications"

[light gyro]

four teams is enough for a decent five-aside football tournament so they really need that nice round number

[solar tendon]

torag can just grab a random child

[barren cipher]

the new god of I Really Don't Want To Be Here But I Have To, remarkably popular among adventurers

[echo briar]

Yea, but Paizo can go "we need to replace Gorum, lets take someone who we are doing something with so we can flesh them fully out before adding them to core"

[solar tendon]

oh for sure in a meta sense

but a lot of stuff has been doing that already

[clever cobalt]

When does the Playtest for SF2e come out?

[warped orbit]

August I believe

[limber comet]

Mid July to August yea

[true delta]

T' zeh ni' weh', perhaps.

[eager mountain]

😄 alchemical hrt

[solar tendon]

lmao just take a lifetimes worth of hrt in one go and speedrun

[eager mountain]

That’s the magic version that costs like 30-60 gold and does it instantly

[silver geyser]

Eyyy, the return the of the Rivethun item from 1e!

https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Anderos salve and mulibrous tincture

[solar tendon]

oh you can get designer hrt too

[carmine egret]

oh that's good lol

it's neat that there's like, a distinction between alchemy and magic potions

[silver geyser]

I like it being within range of other folks in terms of availability.

Granted, a gold a week for a year+ is

Still expensive for common folk.

Actually, it's cheaper to just buy the Greater.

[eager mountain]

Now it’s much easier to believe my gnome got this as a child if it costs like 1 fuckin gold

[solar storm]

The prices are kinda booty for these but I like the concept

(Lesser works out to 52 gp moderate to 96(?) and greater to 35)

[solar tendon]

wait yeah thats weird

[silver geyser]

Yeah, I'd fiddle with those prices for sure.

[solar tendon]

vimes boots theory strikes again

(and moderate is a scam)

[silver geyser]

Granted, basically any town being able to make lesser is great.

Even the least accomplished alchemist can make the lesser version, so that's good.

[unborn rain]

1 Gold per week is an insane amount of money in Pathfinder for the average person

Being able to save up 35 GP is like adventuring money

[surreal basin]

A cow costs 8 GP

So that’s what I think the baseline to keep in mind is

[limber comet]

Pricing in fantasy tabletops can be a little wacky

[surreal basin]

Yeah there’s no reason to ever use moderate

[young chasm]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2871

i have never read this feat before

i'm sorry, five TIMES spell level??

holy hell

[unborn rain]

25 feet reach, almost a normal cantrip at the level you take it

[young chasm]

well with the reach twisting tree gets access to, that's 30 feet using 5th spells

[eager mountain]

yeah that is weird

[surreal basin]

It is mostly a flavor/worldbuilding item but since this is prerelease hopefully they can mess with the pricing to make it make more sense

[vast burrow]

Was reading through some of the Demon Lord entries and like, how are some of these mfs chaotic evil

Ah yes, the most evil actions in existence, "learn magic" and "walk through mazes"

[unborn rain]

Learn Forbidden magic is like everything from "In bad guyia we banned magic which helps people" to "it is illegal to learn the torture spell"

[vast burrow]

True true

It's also funny that Baphomet, a name infamous in our world for being (allegedly) worshipped by multiple evil cults, in pf2e is just like "Yeah man just uh, outwit your opponents, but don't kill them! Also be obsessed with mazes"

[unborn rain]

He only wants you to do those things for evil stuff

He just wants you to do mazes but in an evil way

[vast burrow]

Evil mazes....

[eager mountain]

ah im not evil for learning how to explode babies 100 times repeatedly ...its the same baby , its just exploding still.

[eager mountain]

also those edicts are specifically " hey get people lost in the wilderness becuase your switched around some signs "

also idk if Baphomet is still canon to p2e

[vast burrow]

Still not sure if those are deserving of "Chaotic Evil" though

Plus it's all forbidden magic, not just the evil kinds, and it doesn't even mention using them

[worthy stump]

To be fair, Lesser does say it works over the course of a year or more, so it could turn out to be over 52 gp. Still weird though, yeah

[solar tendon]

the moderate is the main outlier

bulk being cheaper isnt really that unrealistic

[silver geyser]

While I am coming in late to this: Are you going to expect a person who can use magic to just learn shit that's Forbidden and not use it? It's not like they're doing it for noble history perserving reasons, because they can't effectively teach that shit because of their Anathema

But yes, this is another reason why throwing out alignment was not the best play.

[solar tendon]

I mean

if baphomet sticks around theres a good chance he'll require unholy

and/or his edicts might change

[silver geyser]

I don't think it'll matter for Baphomet in particular.

If memory serves me, he's super dead.

[solar tendon]

baphomet defeated but not killed is canon I think

[clever cobalt]

Hmm, what sounds better: Gothic Horror in Ustalav, Cowboys in the Mana Wastes, or Piratring in the Shackles

also anyone got a link to the PF2e discord

[silver geyser]

Ustalav is a fun time.

[clever cobalt]

Ustalav is fun

I wish we got more stuff there in 2e

[silver geyser]

It got plenty in 1e.

[clever cobalt]

I know

I need to reread the 1e lorebook

[limber comet]

Alignment is a neat little thing but it can feel pretty restrictive at times

[eager mountain]

Worshiper of baphomet.. but they just run a corn maze

[limber comet]

Especially if it has mechanical impact

[eager mountain]

Yeah alignment sucks, glad it’s gone

[limber comet]

It can be easy to understand at a glance, but annoying to actually apply in play

Pros and cons

[silver geyser]

Part of this is me loving Paladins to death

[limber comet]

I mean that's fair but I still think you can play the archetypal paladin without alignment

[rapid wagon]

i personally didn't hate alignment because we session zero'd expectations at the table

and it can be an interesting play/performance restriction

I'm not mad that its gone, but i didn't hate it either

but I think a lot of issues people had with it for paladins came from a lack of communication at the table

I also thought/think that the potential to lose your powers as a dramatic development in the narrative was cool

it was effectively never an issue for my ongoing paladin of iomedae, and often was a way to compass the RP decisions

[limber comet]

Edicts and anathema can already compass your rp decisions though

[rapid wagon]

like i said, i dont hate that they're gone, they just werent an issue for me at my table, playing what was essentially a poster child paladin

i like edicts and anathema, but I also liked the alignment stuff

ill be converting my paladin into a champion of iomedae/good as our gm has decided to convert our ongoing Carrion Crown game to 2e

which as i understand it will be something of a power drop for my character, but i dont mind

[stuck bane]

Alignment tends to have a lot of unspoken assumptions around it that many people interpret very differently

[silver geyser]

I also like edicts and anathema, but they were better with alignment being around.

Also alignment is a wonderful litmus test.

[stuck bane]

I’ve honestly never had an experience where it felt like it actually added to a game, but I have encountered people doing annoying crap because of their alignment

Like, that being the reason they chose to do so

[rapid wagon]

in my case, because i was A. playing paladin for the first time ever, and B. knew i had alignment related elements, my GM and I had a number of conversations to make sure we were on the same page as far as expectations and when or how a line being crossed might look

[silver geyser]

A thing you should always do for a paladin tbh

[rapid wagon]

my thought as well

[silver geyser]

I've told my GM's that I'm not interested in fall stories before.

[rapid wagon]

for me, i was interested in having my oaths/commitment/alignment challenged and wanted to work with the gm if they wanted to explore that too

was/am, since t his character is ongoing

[silver geyser]

I'm not here to have a crisis of faith. I'm here to be a guy where there's objective proof that evil things can lead to rewards to you, and chose a pain in the ass code because it empowers him to help other people.

[rapid wagon]

i find the narratively interesting to be empowered enough to be uncompromising in such a world, and then be faced with questions and conundrums that squarely cause one to have to examine their code or oath in meaningful ways; but also I don't think thats all there is to it, I also like playing a character who knows they are a shield between the people and metaphorical and sometimes literal darkness, that they're empowered because they are expected to also take on the greater risks and foes

[silver geyser]

I just like being a good guy. 😄

[rapid wagon]

definitely, in my case, which isn't precriptive in any way, i just like it being shown that it can be hard and challenging to be a good guy, and have to define what good guy means from moment to moment

[silver geyser]

Oh yeah, working within restrictions is fun

And 1e had some fun places to take Paladins too!

Like the Lawful Good Empyreal Lord of Ignorance. 😛

Which was the best pull for a Strange Aeons game tbh

[rapid wagon]

theres a bit of irony, in the mind of a min maxer, the paladin class as i understand it can be seen as OP in the carrion crown module, but because i dice roll like ASS and we did rolled stats, I'm actually not even the highest performer in combat

though I am sort of the party dad

and resident cat herder

[silver geyser]

Well, it's OP there because almost everything is gonna be evil.

So, you know. Plenty of smite targets.

[rapid wagon]

Yeah, but you can't fix missing like 50% of your attacks on a target that is currently being smited

[silver geyser]

Aside from that though.

Yep

[rapid wagon]

many elements of the mechanics are in my favor

which in practice, have kind of put me on par

[silver geyser]

But dice are bastards.

[rapid wagon]

our first time ttrpg player fighter, in turn, is a wandering blender

he barely knows whats going on, but crits grace him like the gods are watching

[silver geyser]

1e fighter got the juice

It took a long while to get there, but god damn is it cool.

[rapid wagon]

my current paladin highlight is being the recipient of a dice miracle

where my gm had to roll a 1 on a d4 and a 100 on a d100 for me to both survive and finish the action that could win us a major battle

and they did, meaning i got to do the thing instead of die

i think i used up all my luck

[silver geyser]

Wooo!

Hey, good time to use it at least

But ye, alignment was a relatively neutral thing in game, and Golarion did great thing with it.

*thigns

bah

[rapid wagon]

i think ultimately ill be fine with edicts and anathemas, ill just need to familiarize myself with em

and then have those same conversations with the gm

once we're converted over

[silver geyser]

I am... Mixed on edicts and anathema without alignment.

Some of them communicate very different things.

[rapid wagon]

i have the benefit, i suppose, of not really changing anything about the character's narrative on teh switch over

so its more about modeling to fit what i already got

[turbid dagger]

I like edicts and anathema because it always felt a little hard for me to assign alignments to my characters
Especially since you can make personal ones
For example I wasn't really sure if I should make my Hobgoblin I'm playing in Kingmaker LN or LG but come the remaster I din't have to care and just did this:

[silver geyser]

Oh, I'm speaking specifically on the gods in this case.

[turbid dagger]

Oh, in that case holy or unholy sanctification usually helps with their Broad Vibes
If some dude is unholy sanct only you can expect them to be a bad dude even if 'torture kittens' is not in the edicts

[rapid wagon]

i imagine im obviously going holy, since, well, im a paladin of iomedae narratively

[silver geyser]

I still don't like the Lamashtu changes in how they were specifically executed.

Because it didn't actually fix what people said were the flaws.

And I inevitably will get someone saying that I'm being a bad person when I say I don't like the change

In short, she got softened way too much.

[rapid wagon]

im not familiar with the ins and outs of the change

[silver geyser]

The before:

The after

[rapid wagon]

it seems more broad to me rather than soft? mental illness seems to be very specific

[silver geyser]

Specifically, wording the anathema to "attempt to change what makes you different" is...

'Very Special Episode' coded in my mind.

Like, the demon goddess hates you trying to change things about yourself at all

And there are always the people who try to use the fact that Lamashtu helps the outcasts and downtrodden in a... Badly positive light for someone like Lamashtu.

[rapid wagon]

Lamashtu is an out and out evil god?

[silver geyser]

Like, her insistence that you Not Get Better painted a very accurate picture of her.

[turbid dagger]

She hates you trying to become normal
I'm certain she would not turn down you slurping more mutant juice

Or what have you

[silver geyser]

This is true, but the wording is way too vague.

Annnd by dev statements, the change came because "She didn't let you work around your disabilities before and that was ableist"

[rapid wagon]

i figure "help the downtrodden/outcasts", is like hand in hand with "indoctrinate they asses" as a wombo combo of "Use people's status as outcasts or downtrodden as a manipulative vulnerability to indoctrinate them to your cause/lamashtu's cause"

[carmine egret]

Hey, are they any magic items or similar that can give you additional arms?

[silver geyser]

That is 100% the case.

But that's not what winds up happening in people's heads all too often.

Case in point: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/f4uvnf/why_is_lamashtu_evilonly/

[rapid wagon]

thats kind of tasty as far as a villainous angle, "Use people's vulnerabilities to manipulate them" is a flavor of evil that often takes a backseat to the smash the world types

[silver geyser]

Correct!

The changes kinda force having to explain that more.

[rapid wagon]

its interesting that the idea of their chaotic nature is in question when one of the edicts is to embrace the corruption in all things

[silver geyser]

Oh, that's easy. It's contrarianism.

Lamashtu is the sort to look at the "normal" standards that get set, go to a person outside of those standards and tell them "Isn't it weirdly fucked up that the people who don't have the challenges you do get to shove you off to the side? Why don't you make them pay for that?"

And she will do that for any given definition of normal, even if it changes over time.

[rapid wagon]

to me it speaks to a more kind of.. sinister way to break down order; in that the downtrodden and outcasts do deserve some kind of attention; but lamashtu's not doing it for them. Lamashtu is doing it to foment a break down of whatever existing order there is

[silver geyser]

This is entirely why I don't like the new wording.

The old "I'll take in whatever is forgotten and discarded, but you better not try to become better" is very evocative and interesting for a villain.

The phrasing of "Don't change what makes you different" is... closing in on seeming like common morals handed out in children's cartoons.

[rapid wagon]

"You don't have to do anything to be better, you ARE better, you're better than them for all the things they threw you out over. Show them. Show them how much better you are."

[silver geyser]

It's mostly pedantry for me, in that I just don't like the phrasing.

[rapid wagon]

a narrative that on its face can be empowering and noble, but the intent isn't to engage with self acceptance and self actualization. It's a cool nuance on manipulative evil

[silver geyser]

Very!

Lamashtu is a great evil deity, because there's also good deities who will look at the people she would prey upon and actually help them

[rapid wagon]

and her clerics and followers might show up and behave/act exactly like those good aligned followers of other deities yeah

[silver geyser]

Also the trend of "monstrous" races becoming unattached from enforced morality was a great way to stick it to her on a meta level as well.

This flavor's always been in Mama Lama too!

All the way back in Rise of the Runelords.

[rapid wagon]

i did personally think that races/ancestries that exist within the material plane having any sort of enforced or born alignment was always a bit wack; a goblin can be socially conditioned into evil rather than just being born evil and have the same output

[warped orbit]

That sort of thing has always been Lamashtu's MO yeah

[rapid wagon]

now i abridge enforce moralities for planar entities, like if you come from the literal plane of goodness; i think you are probably born "good"

[silver geyser]

Literally Lamashtu goes to an Aasimar and tells her "Hey, I know you don't like how everyone treats you simply because of your angelic heritage. What if I helped you get rid of that part of yourself you hate so much? It won't be hard, all you have to do is kill your entire hometown!"

And the current Anathema stops that dead

It's a non-starter.

The celestial heritage is what's different about the NPC.

[rapid wagon]

hmm, well this is me digging, but IS it though? She offers to help them get rid of that element as a manipulative tactic, not to actually get rid of that aspect, no?

Lamashtu is absolutely free to lie

[silver geyser]

No, part of that is that she does change the woman some.

As a partial payment.

[rapid wagon]

ahh i see

[silver geyser]

Could it all be a lie, sure.

But if it is, why even make a bit of a change?

[rapid wagon]

i could see twisting that some, in the sense that if youre a character following that edict, using people's differences to first manipulate them into seperating themselves further from their community, then turning around and saying why change that, it's what makes you unique and awesome, you don't need them.

[silver geyser]

Ye, that would be fun.

[rapid wagon]

playbook of "lets get you to feel more and more isolated first, then prey upon that to make you easier to manipulate, then get you nice and bitter about the isolation "they" forced on you"

[silver geyser]

That is almost exactly the NPC hook that happens in RotRL

[rapid wagon]

"me, I didn't isolate you, I was there for you, helping you. It was THEM that didn't see. THEM that didn't know your beauty, your worth. They should be punished." Serpent whispering ass stuff

[silver geyser]

Here we are

[stuck bane]

I'm not sure I'm following along, but isn't this something better fixed by editing the edicts and anathema? It feels kinda separate from whether alignment is in play

[rapid wagon]

i imagine a lot of lamashtu victims can get seriously effed up by their experiences

I think we moved from alignment, cancer, and were more discussing the semantics of the edicts/anethema