Pathfinder

[surreal basin]

Tbh I really don’t love using the rate at which you get prof as a balance thing

But maybe this is how like

Alchemist will be scaled now

[warped orbit]

if anything I would have expected the Commander to have delayed attack prof

[surreal basin]

Getting master at 17

[warped orbit]

not the Guardian

[frank crystal]

Isn’t that slower then it currently is?

Also is it’s armor profs faster then champion at least?

[surreal basin]

Alchemist never gets master attacks

[frank crystal]

Oh

[solar storm]

They also get weapon crit specs early I think?

Commander

[frank crystal]

That’s weird

[warped orbit]

that's normal

[frank crystal]

Oh

[surreal basin]

Yeah 5 is normal

[frank crystal]

Nevermind

[warped orbit]

the classes that get crit spec get it at 5 usually

[surreal basin]

You get crit specs when you become expert

Which is at 5

[solar storm]

Oh I must be crossing wires with weapon specialization

Which is I think always 7

[surreal basin]

Yeah

That sounds right

[clever cobalt]

Anyone here played Wardens of Wildwood yet? Curious how it is

[surreal basin]

I’m thinking crossbow ranger with animal companion might be good for a playtest with just 3 people

[warped orbit]

Monk can actually get it early funnily
via Brawling Focus

[surreal basin]

Commander, Ranger, Guardian

Oh my god

[solar tendon]

ruffian get it lvl 1

[surreal basin]

Commander can give reactions to animal companions

I mean not to do whatever they want but to do their tactics

[warped orbit]

Champion gets Expert armor at 7, and Master at 13, then Legendary at 17
Guardian gets it at 5, 11 and 15 respectively

[surreal basin]

Because the minion trait says they don’t have reactions, not that they can’t

[solar tendon]

oh thats interesting

[frank crystal]

Also imo, if champion has normal martial prof speed I think guardian should to

They seem to operate on a similar axis

[warped orbit]

we'll also have to see how Champion turns out in PC2 I guess

[turbid dagger]

Real talk I don't think the prof thing is a big deal
You get it a little late, but like
Thaumaturge has to deal with not having its KAS to attack, Guardian can be brave and take his slight to-hit malus for a few levels also
But I also wouldn't complain if it gets an upgrade

[surreal basin]

Either way I’m not too bothered by it tbh

[frank crystal]

And I feel like intercept strike+taunt isn’t that much stronger then champion’s cause reactions

[surreal basin]

I’m curious what you’ll get out of guardian archetype

Like

Commander archetype seems straightforward

[warped orbit]

probably Taunt

[surreal basin]

You get banner baseline, with a feat to get tactics

[solar storm]

I think Guardian actually has more defensive capacity than Champion but idk if it has enough more for the slower progression

[surreal basin]

Yeah

[frank crystal]

Also it’s still the playtest

[warped orbit]

Intercept is harder to use because you need to be adjacent

[surreal basin]

I’m on the same level but like o said I genuinely think the slower progression wouldn’t like

[frank crystal]

It’s not like it’s released yet

[warped orbit]

and it only works against physical at first

[surreal basin]

Even be super noticeable

[surreal basin]

Yes but the playtest means they specifically want it to be picked apart like this

That’s what it’s for

[solar storm]

Yeah it being a playtest makes it unusually important to chat about imo

[frank crystal]

I mean my thing is that I feel like with this, it’s still kinda strike focused. It’s not like it gets so many defensive actions you won’t be striking

Oh yah I’m agreeing with y’all

[warped orbit]

I agree that it's probably not a huge deal, I just don't think it's really necessary either
but I guess they didn't want you to scale attacks and AC at the same level

[frank crystal]

Im saying that because I feel like I’m being a little negative because I don’t like that that much

[surreal basin]

See but it’s NOT really strike focused in that like

They get like

Basically no additional stuff for their strikes

[frank crystal]

So I’m kinda, tempering myself that this isn’t a set in stone decision yet

[rustic cape]

Martial classes do become more specialized and strongly differentiated over time. Do we feel the guardian becomes less dependent on strikes at the levels it’s behind the curve?

[solar storm]

Guardian seems like they'll often have actions left for strikes but little fancy going on for strikes

[warped orbit]

a -2 is still pretty significant

I guess we're going to see a lot of Wrestler Guardians

[frank crystal]

Probably

[warped orbit]

unarmed and shield goes well with what else it wants to do anyway

[surreal basin]

I have been told an expert prof is good enough

See: every time people talk about alchemist

I think guardian is a martial the same way alch is - mostly, but like, wildly focused on something other than hitting people

[solar storm]

I do think its Good Enough but definitely unspectacular

[surreal basin]

Like if Guardian misses a hit that’s like

No big deal

If a rogue misses that’s their whole deal

[solar storm]

hmm

[warped orbit]

also after looking through their feats again now, level 6 is really contested for Guardian feats

there's like three different ones that I think are pretty key

[solar storm]

I am sort of feeling like Guardian should get easier access to Reactive Strike

Either like "you're special and can get it at level 4" or just (hot take incoming) they should just get it

[warped orbit]

oh wait no I mixed up Energetic Specialization with Intercept Energy at 4

[turbid dagger]

Getting it or an equivalent at level 4 would make sense imo

[clever cobalt]

My main opinion regarding that is that they already have plenty if reactions

[turbid dagger]

Monk gets Stand Still at that level

[clever cobalt]

Fair point regardless though

[warped orbit]

so it's mostly Mobile Protection and Reflexive Shield competing at 6

[solar storm]

Yeah Stand Still! might actually be more on theme

[turbid dagger]

This is only tangenitally related but Guardian seems surprisingly frontloaded
A lot of the feats that really made me pop off were in the first 6 levels

[warped orbit]

I don't actually think Reactive is that important to Guardian

you'll want to use your reaction on Intercept whenever you can

[turbid dagger]

It would be kind schnasty with running tackle and such

[solar storm]

I think its nice to make you "sticky" if you're locking down enemies more than standing near allies but I agree

Though for stickiness Stand Still or similar is better

[solar storm]

Also big agree here these are both really good

Stomp Ground is also pretty baller

AoE prone is no slouch

[turbid dagger]

Also a trip with no MAP

[warped orbit]

Reflex vs your Class DC is more favorable for enemies than you doing an Athletics vs their Reflex DC, but yeah

[limber comet]

So how's our overall stances on the classes?

[clever cobalt]

They're good

[surreal basin]

Cool

[clever cobalt]

Commander looks pretty fun

[limber comet]

Both flavorwise and mechanic wise

[solar storm]

I quite like the look of both of them

[warped orbit]

I like Commander a lot
Guardian also looks good, but not as attractive to me personally

[solar storm]

Feel less conservative with power than the Kineticist playtest as well which is nice

[surreal basin]

Commander seems maybe slightly too strong and guardian slightly too weak if I had to be overly critical without reading

Without playing

I mean

[solar storm]

Word I think Commander is gonna be really hard to balance

[surreal basin]

I’ve read it

[turbid dagger]

Commander did not make me holler and scream and whoop and bang my desk like I thought it was going too, but its cool!
Guardian excites me greatly, or at least its feats

[solar storm]

They have so much action econ fuckery that "Commander with a group which is optimizing around their existance" vs "commander in a group of randoms" is gonna be a big delta

[surreal basin]

I think commander giving people special reactions to use on their abilities mandatorily needs to stay

[solar storm]

yeah

[surreal basin]

I’m…. Honestly kinda feeling like pathfinders mostly single reaction system isn’t sufficient anymore

[warped orbit]

my "fear" so to say is that I think Commander will often boil down to "you donate two of your actions to let your melee martial make another full bonus attack"
which is the class working as intended, and what a lot of people want
but I think it might overshadow a lot of other options

[solar storm]

Reactions are so precious in PF2 that I almost think Lancer reactions should be adopted

[surreal basin]

Just because I feel like almost every character gets absolutely flooded with possible reactions

[turbid dagger]

Commander deffo feels more like a lazylord rather than the 'lets fuck em up together' vibes I was hoping for
But Envoy has that with its Lead By Example stuff so I'm satisfied

[surreal basin]

And some of them are so situational and some of them so broad

That they are not on equal footing at all

[limber comet]

I mean commander even in a group of randoms is good as far as I can tell

[warped orbit]

until you get Demoralizing Charge anyway, and now you do the same thing but with two allies
but that's only at lvl 15+

[solar storm]

I'm not saying its bad I'm just saying there's a pretty high optimization ceiling around them as a group

[surreal basin]

Tbh

[clever cobalt]

I do feel, since Thaumaturge, Paizo is more willing to take risks with classes

[surreal basin]

I think commander would really shine in a majority ranged party

[clever cobalt]

Which is for the best imo

[solar storm]

Admittedly "5 people put their heads together to make a scary highly optimized team" generally is scary asf in PF2

[warped orbit]

also looking again, I think Dex Commander might actually be the play
despite their heavy armor access

[clever cobalt]

I agree

[warped orbit]

because you want to avoid moving when you can

[surreal basin]

God I wish I could see them start from scratch with gunslinger

[warped orbit]

so a turn of Strike Hard on your melee + a ranged Strike might be really good

especially with Guiding Shot and its upgraded version there

[solar storm]

Gunslinger and to a lesser extent Inventor really are casualties of that "coward era" you were talking about yeah

[turbid dagger]

That 'literally the whole team starts taking shots at people' tactic is wild
Especially when you can cast cantrips?????
I wanna see this dude with a Psychic

[surreal basin]

Absolutely yeah

[solar storm]

Psychic Dedication is pretty cranked I can see a Psy-Commander being good

[surreal basin]

Which is awesome

[solar storm]

Silent Whisper and stuff are kind of doing the same things

[warped orbit]

Silent Whisper for amped Guidance and Message

[clever cobalt]

I do wonder what a more "modern" Gunslinger would look like

But I guess we'll never know

[solar storm]

Probably fairly similar but with more laissez faire reloads

[surreal basin]

Tbh I kinda wanna do a remade gunslinger and inventor sometime

[warped orbit]

it is pretty strong, I'm just trying not to consider the Master tactics too much for now, because I think they come in pretty late
though both of them are extremely strong

[turbid dagger]

Oh no I meant
Using Ready Aim Fire to get Psychic to cast amped Ignition or something
Doesn't Amped Message do essentially the same thing as some of the tactics?

[clever cobalt]

READY, AIM, FIRE

[surreal basin]

LOAD

AIM

SHOOT

[dark fjord]

why would i want full auto when my friends can full auto for me

[solar storm]

It's such good action compression too

[surreal basin]

I think it's so strong because the majority of martials are geared for melee

[solar storm]

Would make for a cool "officer" monster

[surreal basin]

ranged builds make up significantly less of the population

[solar storm]

And ranged is generally lower for damage so its safer to hand out like that

[warped orbit]

Demoralizing Charge is also the alternative, and that one is also insane tbh

[solar tendon]

it's kinda funny how like

[solar storm]

Yeah that is pretty cranked too

[solar tendon]

that one dual reload feat is too much

reloading an entire party's weapons without even getting to the reaction cost?

[surreal basin]

(its not they should make it work like the typo)

in fairness they reload and then instantly empty

[solar tendon]

I mean I guess this is is playtest so it's not really saying anything it's just funny

[clever cobalt]

So are we guessing the Leshy Iconic is gonna be Guardian or Commander?

[surreal basin]

and they cant choose to reload and not shoot

[turbid dagger]

I just wish that it maybe had more incentive to attack itself
So you can feel more like part of the team getting in on the big coordinated assaults

[warped orbit]

free movement for two allies to move into flanking
they both get a reaction Strike, one of which is free because of your feature, and it also inflicts Frighten potentially

all for two actions

[turbid dagger]

By the time you get it its easy enough to make both of the reactions free also

[solar storm]

Also sort of unreleased but does anyone know where the art piece on the left is from?

I know the dwarf is from Highhelm for one of the archetypes

[warped orbit]

oh right I forgot there's a feat to improve Drilled Reactions

[solar storm]

Stalwart Defender!

[clever cobalt]

Dunno but she looks undead

[turbid dagger]

I honestly figured it was from.......... this
Assumedly those are the iconics

[clever cobalt]

To me at least

[warped orbit]

nope
no Iconic art yet

[turbid dagger]

Oh huh

Theres still hope then
Of hobgobbo......

[solar tendon]

the playtest is 'early' so art isn't ready yet

[surreal basin]

also

[turbid dagger]

Also between Armored Regiment Training and Guardian's Armor stuff I feel they're giving up on 'oh you've been ambushed by wolves in the night! -5 AC because you need to sleep in pajamas'

[surreal basin]

we can now confirm that if they ever do anything with inquisitor it won't be the leadership part of it cause

this

[warped orbit]

clearly that's when you combine it with the other tactic to make everyone nearby reload

[surreal basin]

can you do multiple tactics a turn?

[solar storm]

Jammies fights are cool but I don't really mind their absence

[solar storm]

yes ish

While you can use multiple tactic actions a round, a character cannot respond to more than one tactic per round, regardless of source.

[warped orbit]

oh right
you can do multiple, but each target can only be affect once per round

[surreal basin]

oh okay

[solar tendon]

hm

[surreal basin]

that makes sense

[solar tendon]

what would solo tactics look like

[solar storm]

Like tactics you use on yourself?

[turbid dagger]

I think solo tactics is an inquistor feature from 1e

[solar tendon]

mm

[surreal basin]

tbh i kinda think that "can't sleep in armor" as a balance thing is mostly an artifact of 1e where heavy armor just

[turbid dagger]

Inquistor could pretend its buddies have tactics feats it has

[surreal basin]

had better ac

than dex builds

[turbid dagger]

As you need two folks that both have it to benefit

[solar tendon]

while cavalier gave everyone in an area teamwork feats

[turbid dagger]

I'm eager to see what archetype commander looks like

[solar tendon]

so it's kinda like if you see tactics as a successor to teamwork feats (even though they work a lot differently) what would solo tactics look like

selfish reactions?

[surreal basin]

yeah kinda

but also those are

[turbid dagger]

I have an idea in my head of Deceptive Tactics with Stumbling Feint but I feel thats more possible from the monk end than the commander end

[surreal basin]

1e HAD evil teamwork feats

[solar tendon]

like, the class acts like it's being commanded by some invisible commander

[surreal basin]

they were called like betrayal feats or smth

[turbid dagger]

thats just warhorse commanders bossing their terror bird around

[surreal basin]

CHOCOBO KNIIIIIIIGHT

[turbid dagger]

..............Hm okay actually though
Warhorse Commander is probably what I want out of commander

[solar storm]

It's a whole thing for them and its dope

I haven't really evaluated how good looking it is yet

[turbid dagger]

Cuz you command animal, it moves and attacks
Then you do your tactic and everyone does it including your animal
You do no MAP stuff on your turn so your beaft can just bite gnaw gnash away even if you ride it

[warped orbit]

It does let you move yourself around via the mount

[solar storm]

I will hopefully be playtesting a mounted Commander this weekend though

[warped orbit]

actually this has some pretty funny interaction with Form Up

I'm also still unsure what to think of Mountaineering and Naval Training
because when you need them, they are kinda insane
but when you don't, they're useless

[turbid dagger]

Okay I have got my Vision for a Commander
A personal Iconic if you would
Lizardfolk noble from Droon with a war triceratops

[warped orbit]

but with you learning relatively few tactics, I don't know if its justifiable to take such a niche option
unless you know the whole campaign will feature either heavily

[solar tendon]

and a campaign which does feature them a lot might just end up with a party that's already better prepared than the tactic can make them

[turbid dagger]

I can imagine Mountaineering getting some regular play as a utility thing, worth putting in your Folio
Cuz it only takes ten minutes to swap to a new tactic no?

[solar storm]

yeah

and there's feats which can allow you to swap one on initiative roll

[turbid dagger]

Naval is even more niche but you will likely know if you are in a campaign where it will be useful

[warped orbit]

the thing is you only learn four of the basic tactics, and can prepare two

and then one extra for each prof step, but I don't see a case where that slot isn't taken up by the advanced tactics

[turbid dagger]

You can also get more from feats

[warped orbit]

I guess you could Tactical Expansion them, yeah

[turbid dagger]

I'd likely take an offensive and mobility tactic that will nearly always see play like Form Up and Strike Hard, then two Weirder Ones

[warped orbit]

I think you basically always want Strike Hard

and Form Up probably, yeah

1a everyone Strides as a reaction is pretty hard to beat

hmm, actually reviewing I guess most of the Offensive maneuvers are kinda weird
so you could just take the terrain training as backup utility

climb speed is pretty strong when its relevant

[craggy thunder]

Were the playtests released for the new martials?

[turbid dagger]

And when its universal for your whole team it becomes relevant in a lot more spots

[warped orbit]

check the pins

[solar storm]

I missed this

I am no longer advocating for earlier Reactive Strike

This is sticky enough

This is actually fucked up?

Like what counterplay is there?

[upbeat ridge]

yeah everyone is saying to nerf this

[trail nova]

Shoves, I think

[solar storm]

yeah that's probably it

[solar tendon]

you can open up a pit underneath yourself and then naturally fall down it

[trail nova]

Or "oh, boo ho. Murder time"

[surreal basin]

so

the worst thing offered by tis

take this as a fighter

[solar storm]

this is, tbf, exactly what Guardian wants people to do

[surreal basin]

with the guardian archetype

walk up to an enemy caster

"you are dead"

"maybe not this turn. but you have now died. all that matters is how many crits itll take"

yeah this should probably provoke a save to be allowed to move tho

like a reflex, on fail the action is wasted, on crit fail you can't move outof reach until the start of your next turn

[solar storm]

yeah it being no save is probably too much

It's quite strong even with a save

[surreal basin]

Shoving someone into a hazardous area

And then running into that area and trapping both of you in it

Now for what it’s worth

This kind of isn’t helpful for the guardian cause

You wanna be adjacent to Allies

ALLIES IS A WORD PHONE

[solar storm]

Yeah that's its biggest problem

If you're using in range to intercept attacks you're not peeling

[surreal basin]

And if you’re adjacent to an ally… uh… the enemy you’re doing this to can just

[solar storm]

But its extremely hard peel

[surreal basin]

Walk around you

its compliccated lol

[turbid dagger]

If it were like
A subclass feature perhaps but as a thing anyone can take at level 4 perhaps not yeah
not that 'spending actions to run away' is something people actually do ime

[solar storm]

Ok hmm

I saw this on the reddit

[turbid dagger]

Speaking of subclass features
Guardians '''subclasses''' are so silly
It feels like they got put in just cuz they didn't want to release the class with no subclasses

[solar storm]

If you plant your Commander Banner it ought to be attackable RAW

But there's no guidance there

[turbid dagger]

Like this is
Not a lot

[warped orbit]

I actually forgot they existed until you mentioned them again just now

[turbid dagger]

Like
Who cares about this

[solar tendon]

I do like how the planted banner can just be stolen

[trail nova]

Is there any meaningful reason to plant it?

[solar tendon]

it gets +10 ft radius

and it means you yourself don't have to be in the middle of your party

[solar storm]

I do like that

Flag Taken

[turbid dagger]

It also gives the crew renewing temp hp, which is fairly potent

[solar tendon]

oh commander initiative is wild

[solar storm]

Yeah the big bubble of (small amounts of) renewing THP is nice

[solar tendon]

as long as you're not being ambushed

[clever cobalt]

enemy has flag

[solar tendon]

which. kinda feels weird since that's something knowledge of war prepares you for I feel

[warped orbit]

one small thing, it's funny to me how weirdly good Reflex saves are for Guardian
especially once you hit 19

[turbid dagger]

Yeah someone noted they are with Rogue in the 'success to crit in all three saves' club

[surreal basin]

Oh hey something funny for enemies with the ability to steal

Yank your banner

oh i didn't notice if this existed

is there anything on what happens if your banner is destroyed

[clever cobalt]

Yes

[surreal basin]

sick alright

[clever cobalt]

If it's destroyed or stolen, allied are spooked

[surreal basin]

oky so it doesn't have the thing i actually meant which is

uh

how get new one

[clever cobalt]

Also is there anything such as a "Fallen" Hellknight?

Like one who renounce the order

[surreal basin]

I mean I'm not familiar with any but Im sure they exist

there are deserters

theres som in the WOTR game

[solar tendon]

oh hm

how practical are siege weapons now with Reload!

[surreal basin]

I mean not very still imo in anything beyond a setpiece

you're still lugging around a wagon sized weapon lmao

[solar tendon]

I guess it's more that there are more practical siege weapons now but you still have to solve all the other problems yeah

kinda feels like artillerist should be able to affect the dc on a siege weapon hm

it's still really weird but I think a commander would be a very welcome addition to the crew of weird gunwagon ;P

oh hm

it's not Interact to load it's Load

[turbid dagger]

You know with the higher focus on ranged attacks and cover in SF I wonder if Commander might actually do even better there

[warped orbit]

yeah but Reload! specifies it also works with siege weapons

[solar tendon]

no yeah that's what I'm saying

I'm pretty sure the interaction though is like

Interact to reload means you're only getting one action

the fact it's letting you Load as a reaction means you're performing what is usually a 2 action activity

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/blinking-eyes-white-guy-blinking-meme-what-huh-gif-26334323

waitt ink left ?

[solar tendon]

so the stonks are even higher

[solar storm]

The subreddit and maybe the discord in the near future

There's gonna be another announcement

[clever cobalt]

Who's Ink on the Discord??

[barren cipher]

the owner

[solar storm]

Oh I didn't realize Ink was the server owner

[barren cipher]

they are luck_panda on reddit

i thought he was

[turbid dagger]

Oh it was Ink doing all that reddit stuff?
That.....
Does not surprise me actually
Whatsoever
At all

[solar storm]

I have no reason to think otherwise I just didn't know

[barren cipher]

yeah it occurred to me that i don’t actually know for certain either, that was my long term impression though

[solar tendon]

wait nvm this is just part of siege weapon rules already

and the commander gets legendary class dc 🤔

[barren cipher]

i think this would be a good opportunity for paizo to try to take more of a hand in the community

[eager mountain]

ink is literally in this discord

but thats them on the p2e discord

[solar storm]

I think there are good reasons for companies to be a little hands off but PF2 is sort of weird in that it's relatively centralized feeling

[young chasm]

is there a commander pathbuilder pack yet

i've seen the gardian one

[eager mountain]

:U I got new reference art of my gnoooommmmme

for starfinder

cw: a bit shortstacky

[frank crystal]

What was the name of the magical girl archetype coming out?

Nvm I found it

[warped orbit]

Star Child, for the record

[frank crystal]

I thought it was named Starlit Sentinel

[warped orbit]

actually that was the one, I mixed it up with something else

[frank crystal]

Ah

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/daytona-tortugas-milb-mascot-baseball-shelldon-gif-27645378

[frank crystal]

Also are there any reach shove weapons?

Because ngl double team with a reach weapon would go hard

[warped orbit]

uhh, Bec de Corbin and Pantograph Gauntlet

so mostly just the Bec de Corbin

though I still don't quite see the point in Double Team tbh

[frank crystal]

Checking there’s also the boarding pike

[warped orbit]

oh yeah Boarding Pike as well

[frank crystal]

Which seems like the best one imo

[echo briar]

Can I just say how glad I am that the playtest is lasting longer than a month?

Previous playtests have just been so hard to do more than like 2 tests

but here we have 2 months, which is a lot more reasonable

also, commander is really good with a gymnast swashbuckler

as you get them panache on your turn

[solar tendon]

omg yes

shield medic is peak

not a huge fan of the war horse feats tbh - it has the same problem as ranger in that there is no reason not to spend the same number of class feats on archetype

other than inherent opportunity cost of an archetype but still

and like being able to put a banner on your companion feels kinda nothing compared to ranger's edge affecting companion

cavalier also gets you the faster progression, and the free stride at level 4 mature instead of level 10 incredible

[warped orbit]

yeah I'm not sure why they get the independent action delayed to 10

[solar tendon]

cavalier also has more options for small characters, as you can have a medium companion straight away

[echo briar]

the war horse should have a unique support benefit

[solar tendon]

oh wild

[echo briar]

one that supports everyone else, not just you

[solar tendon]

the commander attacks are all pretty interesting tbh

shame guiding shot non-bos with sniper's aim and the like

the fact that a valid response to taunting a wizard is for them to fireball the whole party is really funny

[sudden lark]

They added a new class?

[surreal basin]

There’s a new playtest

It’s pinned in this chat

[turbid dagger]

Where might this be, btw?

I know its a late reply, sorry

But I'd very much like to try building one out

[surreal basin]

is there a particularly interesting build a fighter can do with axes?

.. I guess just a big murder twohander works lol

try to grab aoe/multihit stuff

[limber comet]

I mean maybe a thrown axe build could be neat

But idk about builds

[young chasm]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tYxqsX8M_wjFGm0cZY1Qho92rXkhWYAi/view

[turbid dagger]

I had an idea earlier that I found appealing
Take double slice at level 1
Take Pirate Dedication and Pirate Weapon Training at level 4- hatchets now scale with your highest prof
And then take Shield as your weapon group for fighters weapon mastery
So now you can do double slice stuff and shield stuff with a d6 shield boss and a d6 agile hatchet
Then idk, use Cutting Flattery to get out of Pirate and do Bastion if your doing free archetype
Probably not the best build in the world but it lets you pick from two featlines so thats neat

[surreal basin]

I have gone for just

large man do large damage

classic but fun

going for some intimidation

[turbid dagger]

Fair
Greataxe fighter seems nice honestly
Sweep plus fighters innate +2 means you can carve through groups pretty well

[surreal basin]

that's the plan!

[tough perch]

if you can get orc ancestry feats, you can throw in there the shove trait by getting orc weapon familiarity and a butchering axe

[turbid dagger]

Yes but uh
Shove

Real talk if I'm using a butchering axe its probably more for the name than shove LMAO

[surreal basin]

Oh how they butchered the butchering axe

In 1e that thing has a fucking nightmarish amount of dice attached to it

[silver geyser]

Mmmm, 3d6 base damage

[surreal basin]

Mmmm x3 crit mod

[worthy stump]

butchering axe was pretty bonkers in 1e, yeah

it was funny to vital strike with it

[surreal basin]

Yeah

Get a lil silly with it

Put impact on it

[warped orbit]

Sweep with an axe against weak enemies fucking explodes things

[eager mountain]

my commander banner

[echo briar]

War priest is the only caster that doesn’t automatically get a focus spell at level one right?

[young chasm]

do we count focus cantrips in this question?

wait ignore this bard totally gets a focus spell

huh yeah i guess it would be only warpriest

[unborn rain]

In legacy, technically Arcane trickster rogue

[turbid dagger]

Somehow I only realized like last week that every caster got a focus spell

[unborn rain]

I didnt realise it either, I just never thought about it

[turbid dagger]

even summoners and maguses do
Though Summoners' kind of sucks

[young chasm]

naaw evolution surge goes hard

that +20 speed is a huge boon

plus being able to give yourself a swim speed at level 1 is pretty nice, it being your eidolon makes it a great scouting tool for underwater stuff

then it gets super cool at 3rd level when you can mario mega mushroom your eidolon

[unborn rain]

Also scent for tracking

[turbid dagger]

IME if I need a 20 foot bonus to speed I will just have my eidolon
Stride an extra time
Instead of casting a spell
Once everyone is actually in there tends to be not much need for speed after that

I'm not just talking out my ass to be clear, I've played 5 levels of Summoner playing Strength Of Thousands

I admit I have been using it more now that the enlarge heighten is available but soon enough my beautiful monster will be large permanently

[unborn rain]

https://tenor.com/view/thiswaytofun-thisway-signflipper-gif-5389209

Banner Twirl, I assume

[solar jacinth]

What's he selling? Aw man, now I'll never know...

[unborn rain]

You don't need to know what he's selling because you can see what he's serving

[solar jacinth]

There's an PF artifact which is a belt buckle containing your armor for instant donning. I mean... do I need to say it?

[rustic cape]

Almost certainly intentional

[eager mountain]

Which artifact

[solar jacinth]

That's what I've been looking for. I did see there are bracers that do something similar.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/a-b/armiger-s-panoply

Kind of similar...
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-armor/folding-plate

[solar tendon]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=3102

oh hey the gloves of storing are now a belt

with more items at higher levels

kinda feels less evocative tbh but ogl stuff I presume

[warped orbit]

Oh that's great actually

Means they don't conflict with other gloves

[solar tendon]

for sure

[rustic cape]

looks at Hampering Sweeps

Yo what the fuck is this doing at level 2

[sinful gyro]

Ye, it's getting a lot of talk about it

[light gyro]

oh my god what do you mean its not just strides

[rustic cape]

Honestly I kinda think this should just be an ability Guardians have?

Make their niche hampering sweeps

[light gyro]

It's certainly a bigger "fuck you, fight me" ability than taunt (at the cost of being useless at range)

[rustic cape]

Do not allow people to pick it up with multiclassing

Let taunt be the ranged option and hampering sweeps be the melee lockdown

Build the class around that

[warped orbit]

I keep seeing people bring up Shouldercheck as good, and I don't get it

you can make a weak attack to make the enemy off guard for the rest of your turn... instead of just attack at full bonus instead?

[solar tendon]

monster core and tian xia world guide coming to AoN 18th

[sinful gyro]

Nice

[solar tendon]

(also ap 197/8)

if you play a non reach melee sprite you deserve it tbh

[frank crystal]

sprite guardian strongest

[barren cipher]

yeah i’m not seeing it either

[light gyro]

Should check into firing squad is a nasty combo but I wouldn't bet on it over any of the same level feats wait I can't read yeah what is this even

[warped orbit]

it's just kinda baffling

[turbid dagger]

If you have powerful fist I can see it filling the same niche as snagging strike but even then uhhh

PF shoulder check into some two hand press is Something but takes way too many feats

[barren cipher]

snagging strike has a duration

[warped orbit]

Snagging also helps your team, yeah

Shoulder Check doesn't

[barren cipher]

i think if it was off guard until your next turn it would be pretty decent

[solar storm]

Shoulder check being a greedy debuff feels very strange on the guardian

[warped orbit]

Yeah if it was that, it'd have a niche

[solar storm]

It’s not an Ultra Deeps class which wants to soften people up for itself

Or at least it’s pretty bad for damage haha

[warped orbit]

Because flanking is awkward on Guardian, since you need adjacency for Intercept

[trail nova]

Guardian sounds very awkward. It feels like it missed out on a lot of what made 4e defenders good. (It’s not just the mark/taunt, and Intercept seems like a terrible punishment).

[echo briar]

Guardian needs threat.

currently, it just kinda stands there and gets hit

[unborn rain]

Feracious Vengance is punish for ignoring their Taunt

[echo briar]

Looking at a game we all know, lancer, all the defenders can do something other than get hit, whether thats reactions like the Saladin or gorgon, shields like the napoleon, or just having a heavy mount

[barren cipher]

2-6 damage/strike is a pretty sad punishment

[turbid dagger]

Its also like, baby's first damage bonus, to be fair
If that's a core component it really needs a boost

As its not something you can choose to have happen
Rogues can choose to have their extra damage happen

[echo briar]

anyways I think the guardian should just get the leviathan heavy assault cannon

[barren cipher]

i think it needs juice yeah

[echo briar]

Honestly, I could see it benefiting from a more Enkidu style of defense. Just be real sticky

Let no one leave

presumably without attacking your allies

[barren cipher]

i thought that based on recently published classes this would firmly put champion in the bin but it's really lacking outside the actual defensive ability

[echo briar]

champion's one of the best classes in the game. It would be hard to put it in the bin

Another thing is that the best way to use taunt is to run away and hide after using it

Just don't give them a chance to hit you with your now lowered AC

Thats thematically not great

[trail nova]

It also needs to hit. Which… it has a delayed progression

[turbid dagger]

I think the feats for Guardian kind of whip and armor spec out the gate is fun, but yeah
Its definitely a class I'd have a lot of fun playing while admitting its not the best out there

(Level 1 armor spec is mean seriously)
(Mitflits throwing their 1d6-2 darts at you and they just bounce off)

[fossil temple]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1cg6wg8/my_first_character_idea_while_reading_the/ poking the hornet nest is fun
(The past ADM that was causing issues lost his status tho)

[turbid dagger]

I mean, I agree that that mod was being nuts but the whole (fairly valid) point of it was that Samurai doesn't really need to be a bespoke class
And this just supports that lol

(People were asking for it to come back cuz it WAS its own class in 1e, and they wanted the mechanical stuff from 1e Sam back, which is imo fair, but the mechanical stuff is around in classes and archetypes afaik)

[frank crystal]

When is battlecry coming out?

[turbid dagger]

I'm not even sure its been announced
This playtest was released fairly early according to them so chances are its gonna be a long long while

[frank crystal]

Oh alright

[warped orbit]

we don't even know what book it's gonna be

the name is presumably just a placeholder

[turbid dagger]

(So early the art used for them aren't even the iconics cuz they aren't ready)

[frank crystal]

Oh I didn’t know

[turbid dagger]

Also: Our crew in the roman-inspired PBP I'm in is currently chowing down on River Drake
My Lizardman is from a mountain infested with dragonoids so he's having a field day
Currently detailing how drake balut is a delicacy in his homeland
Their employer wanted any eggs they found intact but two that were nearly ready to hatch broke in the fight, so while everyone was going 'aw fuck we're gonna lose money' Haziske was just 😋

[surreal basin]

hmph

do yall think a boss fight with multiple creatures representing parts of a giant monster could work?

[solar tendon]

ye

[surreal basin]

been thinkin about how to do like

really huge motherfuckers

[barren cipher]

i don't think it would be without problems though

you'd have to figure out what you want to do with area/multitarget effects

there might be a lot of space that is ostensibly empty on the map but actually has like limbs and such in it

[surreal basin]

Yeah fair

[barren cipher]

i think you might be looking at, like, battle egg kinda stuff rather than normal grid based tactical combat

[surreal basin]

i think they would... ostensibly be mechanically seperate creatures that can get hit by area effects multiple times?

[solar tendon]

yeah I don't think there's an issue with that tbh

[surreal basin]

there'd be a level of abstraction obviously

but that's just inherent to a concept like this

I've just been thinking about stuff like the wyrms and like

tarrasque

where it struggles to feel like they're fighting something actually massive

[true delta]

Wouldn't be too hard, I reckon. I've replaced a creature with another one ina D&D-like game before to simulate From Software boss phases.

[surreal basin]

oh i mean i do that all the time

could also kinda do a hydra esque mechanic

where one creature has multiple target sub locations that can be targeted

with smaller hp pools that make up the larger health

[barren cipher]

i think that would be the conventional approach

you'd also be able to strip abilities from it while still doing damage to the main hp pool

i'd probably throw in an enrage at 50% or something as well, why not

[surreal basin]

also classic would be the jrpg main body and two arms you can fuck up

[thorny berry]

Swordmage gang rise up

[upbeat ridge]

i haven't read it super in depth, but what is guardian's niche compared to champion? its hard for me to tell

[barren cipher]

you aren't the only one

i think it's aiming for harder battlefield control at the expense of all the other stuff champion does

but it's sort of difficult to tell because there's stuff like hampering sweeps which cannot possibly make it through playtesting unscathed

[upbeat ridge]

yeah thats what im getting

and taunt is a bit undertuned imo

its a playtest

weve got 8+ months

[barren cipher]

yeah, it definitely needs a bit of juice

[solar storm]

Yeah I'm not that worried about it but it does seem a little too conservative with power atm

[barren cipher]

defensive swap is a) a commander feat and b) can be used if one or both of you are grappled, wtf

[upbeat ridge]

hot take: guardian should be CON KAS

[barren cipher]

i think that would definitely necessitate some non-strike means of doing damage

because they're on struggle street already by the look of it

[turbid dagger]

If we're throwing stuff at the wall, get their prof scaling back to normal, make em a 12 HP class, and give em Con KAS
So they are still hitting slightly less good than most martials cuz of the -1 str but they get to be the beef slab of their dreams
They'd need some thing to help them wear heavy armor though- did Soldier have anything like that?

[frank crystal]

I don’t remember

Also yah 12 HP would be nice, especially since taunt makes them easier to hit

[limber comet]

Yes, Soldier uses their con instead of str

[echo briar]

Sorry cyan

I got to use warfare lore on my initiative to post this first

[solar storm]

lmao

[upbeat ridge]

Ok correction: con kas and normal martial scaling

[upbeat ridge]

Yes. I think soilder has a thing where they can count thier con instead of str for meeting armor reqs

While I don’t think pf2e and sf2e are balancing with eachother, I’m not sure if they wanna have similar or duplicated class features

[upbeat ridge]

This would open up the space for dex guardians, but I think that would make them really similar to swashbucklers image wise?

I can see why they went with str but con would be cooler imo

[solar tendon]

con guardian would be cool

[upbeat ridge]

Barring like, sneak attack or spell slots ig

[solar tendon]

strength also gives you the bulk limit for stuff like the superheavy armours and shields though

ik a lot of people don't care abt bulk (and tbh I only do when foundry does the work lol) but in terms of game design decisions

[craggy thunder]

Oh boy Int martial!

(I haven't looked at the material yet lol)

[turbid dagger]

Its cool
You will not be striking much yourself most likely

[craggy thunder]

nah I know

Oh commander's steed has immense potential for funny

am I crazy or is the Guardian iconic an Iomedaean?

Based on her pauldrons' little decorations

[solar storm]

If you mean the orc she's not the iconic

[craggy thunder]

She's not?

Oh

[solar storm]

But is probably Iomedean

Yeah all the art is placeholder rn

[solar tendon]

she's from wotr

and also the legends book

and she is an iomedean

Irabeth Tirabade

this is her wife

[craggy thunder]

OH HER

The memories

they flood back

of me not liking her armor

cuz

boob plate

sees raise haft

https://tenor.com/view/yes-simon-cowell-glowing-eyes-gif-16217022

[frank crystal]

RIGHT

I REMEMBER HER NOW

I RAN INTO HER IN WRATH OF THE RIGHTEOUS

Then yah it would be kinda weird for her to be the guardian iconic, she’s a paladin!

She already has a canon class

[clever cobalt]

Yeah the art is just Placeholder

We know one of the two will have a Leshy Iconic

[eager mountain]

her wife is also trans.

[eager mountain]

CHAOS FALCON

https://tenor.com/view/eagle-shocked-omg-stare-surprised-gif-5453168

My question, dear reader, has always been about the connection between these birds. Most sources say there is no doubt the three creatures have a common ancestor. What could that creature be? And does it still live?
I needed to trace the birds back to their commonalities for an answer. The Zoetrope could not take us back in time, but my studies could, and I soon found several similarities within a handful of creation myths. In ages past, the world was said to be in an everlasting tempest. Volcanoes spat fire into the sky, lightning jumped between clouds of ash, and sharp ice fragments whipped through the wind. It was the storm from which all other storms were born. How fitting would this primordial tempest be as the birthplace of the species of elemental bird from which the others evolved?
I searched volcanoes for the creatures known as chaos falcons, waiting for a violent eruption to give me a glimpse into the world of the past. It was in the Kullan Dei mountains that I at last found it.
This journal entry was written for Pathfinder Howl of the Wild by Caryn DiMarco.```

[worthy stump]

chaos dunk...

[eager mountain]

https://tenor.com/view/michael-jordan-snes-super-nintendo-slam-dunk-basketball-gif-27684228

[frank crystal]

Just found out there’s a Dandy Archetype

I’m making Slayer Guilty Gear right now

[worthy stump]

Dandy and Vampire time

[frank crystal]

A strength based monk human, with dandy and vampire archetype

Based around hitting as hard as humanly possible

Though

He is connected to the backrooms

So maybe fetchling would be better

[thorny berry]

One inch punch

Pilebunkerrrr

[frank crystal]

Perfect

[frank crystal]

Hmm, are there any monk feats that let you like

Move forward, strike, move back?

Also oh shit

Stoked flame stance seems sick for this build

I might go with that over dragon stance

I lose a step of damage die but I get some really neat effects

[turbid dagger]

Does not work with what you want but Peafowl Strut (and peafowl stance in general)

[worthy stump]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=2984

there's this, but it's a whole three actions

[frank crystal]

Oh yah peafowl is pretty great for mobility

Unfortunately though, it does require a sword

And this build has only its fists

[frank crystal]

I mean hey, I was going with this stance anyway

And that is pretty great action economy

3 actions for 6

[turbid dagger]

Its not quite stumbling feints 1 to 4 but its nice yeah

[frank crystal]

Wait 4 actions?

But I thought stumbling feint just lets you feint before a flurry of blows

That’s only 3

1 feint, 2 strikes

[warped orbit]

I think Namo might mean how it's kind of like two Feints on a success ?

Since it applies to both Strikes

[frank crystal]

Oh true yah

[turbid dagger]

Yeah stumbling feint is feint-strike-(do the feint again)-strike, effectively

[light gyro]

anyone know if there's a way to filter the creature table on archive of nethys for creatures with spellcasting? update, pf2etools does the job

[light gyro]

"okay what can i throw into this commander/guardian playtest"

On a failure, the target cannot use reactions until the start of its next turn
"okay maybe not that"

[turbid dagger]

To be fair, that seems useful to test

[light gyro]

splip splop

[light gyro]

RUNES

[light gyro]

the alchemist has seen the face of god

[frank crystal]

My favorite part of alchemy?

The lack of side effects

[frank crystal]

A big advantage of giving all my major NPCs titles is that I can do cool stuff with the boss bar module

[true delta]

My new cardboard crack has arrived with a crack. Would you keep this or send it back?

Looks like the pages are not perfectly in contact with the glue anymore... On the other hand, it'll be tjrown away if I return it.

[fossil temple]

wait, they took away the side effects of his potions?

[light gyro]

All paperback game books are doomed to die anyway, I doubt anyone would judge you for a banged up book. Return it if you want tho they'll almost certainly replace it.

[light gyro]

side effects are only psychosomatic meaning they're not real and you should keep taking drugs I think they're just being silly

[frank crystal]

No I’m just making a joke that that alchemist is gonna be fucked up

[fossil temple]

OH! PFF

[fossil temple]

jus tlike in real life/n

[turbid dagger]

So it seems the reddit stuff has finally reached the 2e discord
Hopefully things will quiet down after this

[fossil temple]

Man, what a clusterfuck

I just want the Defender to grill

[crystal walrus]

Did defender conversations get heated?

[stuck bane]

Aiui there was a whole lotta discourse in the wake of the tian xia book

[turbid dagger]

No, the big disaster in the PF2e spaces recently has been a mod on the reddit going a little nuts and banning people en masse over valid but very overblown concerns of orientalist takes after the Tian Xia Worldguide dropped

[solar storm]

It really had very little to do with the book though

[solar tendon]

it'd kinda been bubbling for a bit

mostly when any rule treatment for samurai and ninja was deconfirmed

wasn't really abt the book itself

like in retrospect anyway

[crystal walrus]

Ah i see

[stuck bane]

It just happened to be overlapping the same time as the playtest stuff

[crystal walrus]

thanks for clarifying

So if i were to start running PF2e soon, what would be the main things you reckon a player or GM would need to learn?

[barren cipher]

it sorta depends where you're starting from

[crystal walrus]

Ideally I'd love to remember all things, but I find a lot of games have that "Just make sure you know this"

[barren cipher]

if you're used to d20 goblin-bashing systems then uh

margins of success is an important one

not fucking around with the numbers is another

[solar storm]

For GM specific stuff I think the best things to focus on are encounter building (the CR system but also spending time thinking about area size and shape and other environmental ones) and the treasure rules

Those are sort of pain points for new GMs ime

[stuck bane]

The level-based dcs table is your friend

[solar storm]

PF2’s encounter building tools work very well but a “deadly” encounter in PF2 is actually deadly not like 5e where deadly means “stop after 2 of these”

[barren cipher]

yeah the encounter builder actually works outside a few narrow exceptions (level 3-4 solo encounters are disproportionately difficult against level 1 parties)

[warped orbit]

yeah Severe+ encounters can be pretty swingy
it can go bad very easily

[solar storm]

And there’s a few monsters which can buck the difficulty curve some like lesser deaths and certain terrain-using enemies on favorable terrain

[stuck bane]

The level based dcs are not hard numbers but they’re typically dcs that you need about a natural 8 on your more specialized rolls to get a success on, iirc?

[barren cipher]

magic items are required

[stuck bane]

So they can be handy for coming up with unexpected target numbers for rolls

[warped orbit]

ish
IIRC it actually becomes slightly easier to beat level based DCs, iff you actively invest in the respective skill

[barren cipher]

the game expects you to have magic swords and stuff, if you don't wanna use magic swords there are optional rules to dispense with them

[crystal walrus]

Margins of success is the +/- 10 to Crit right?

[solar storm]

Yeah they’re good for what a “baseline difficulty” roll is at a level

[crystal walrus]

and what do you mean by not messing with the numbers

[stuck bane]

Yeah, and people aren’t always rolling the things they’ve invested the most in

[barren cipher]

like not going 'this doesn't seem right, i'm just gonna add 4 AC to this monster'

[solar storm]

And nat 1 also downgrades and step and nat 20 also upgrades a step yeah

[solar storm]

Basically leave DCs for written things and monster stats alone

[crystal walrus]

Alright

[barren cipher]

'casters are underpowered, i'm gonna give them spell attack runes'

that kind of thing

[solar storm]

Don’t pull out system penalties (the low hanging fruit is people messing with MAP or spell DC boosting gear)

[barren cipher]

i mean you can but you really shouldn't until you understand what's going on

[crystal walrus]

MAP?

[barren cipher]

multiple attack penalty

[crystal walrus]

ah

[barren cipher]

the thing that stops you going Strike Strike Strike as the only thing a martial ever does

[warped orbit]

from the player side on that note also, though this comes more into play as you go up in level IME
buffs and debuffs are a big deal

[stuck bane]

Each attack on your turn is less valuable so your more interesting options are more appealing

[crystal walrus]

okay this all makes sense

shit I wasn't going to touch without playing for a while

[stuck bane]

It’s worth noting an attack is anything with the attack tag, not just the strike action

[crystal walrus]

oh?!

that i didn't know

[warped orbit]

yeah maneuvers like Trip and Grapple are also Attack tagged, so they incur and are affected by MAP

[turbid dagger]

I'd say the most impactful things that are notably different from how other D&D-o-sphere games do things is uhhhh

You get three actions on your turn, almost everything you do will cost an amount of these actions- no free movement, for example

Multiple Attack Penalty. Look this up cuz its hard to describe it snappily but basically you can't just attack 3 times each turn

90% of character building stuff will be feats of some sort, and there are multiple types of feat- skill feats, ancestry feats, class feats, so on

[crystal walrus]

Yeah i notice unlike feats in pf1e or starfinder

[rustic cape]

Feat in PF2e just means “selectable character option that isn’t a spell”

[crystal walrus]

that feats actually give you new actions or new things to do

[warped orbit]

the majority of your stuff is feats

[crystal walrus]

Literally you get a Class Feature

so i do dig that a lot

[rustic cape]

Would you be running IRL or on Foundry?

Or roll20?

[turbid dagger]

Both times I have introduced someone in my Lancer circles to PF2e they got briefly confused about the no free movement thing

[crystal walrus]

Foundry most likely

since i never run irl

I need a break after lancer though

[warped orbit]

the Foundry module is very good, so that'll also help

[rustic cape]

Okay, PF2e’s Foundry module is really good

[solar storm]

PF2's Foundry Module is so good that I don't really know how flanking actually works lmao

[rustic cape]

Something of note: a lot of times fights in PF2e are fast and highly kinetic

And by fast I mean in real time

No 2 hour fights

[solar storm]

Yeah I was really surprised by then when I was first messing with the system

[rustic cape]

You can have meaningful combat encounters in 20-30 minutes

Especially on Foundry

[solar storm]

Yeah it's lowkey a big part of the reason I play it more than Lancer these days

I can get through fights without planning my session pacing around them as much

[barren cipher]

also in general support for gms is really good

[solar storm]

Yeah it took me a little while to get used to all the tools but its nice having a lot of them and that they mostly work

[light gyro]

idk i've had some two fights

[turbid dagger]

I'm doing a big victory point track in a PBP game right now
There are tons of little tools and subsystems you can bust out to spice things up

[light gyro]

i'd say one thing that you have to be wary of with pf2e is your players have gotta be engaged. last session i turned to the party and said "okay you guys have to spend GOLD your frontliner is walking around WITHOUT RESILIENT RUNE. you are LEVEL FOURTEEN

[warped orbit]

oh boy

yeah spending your gold on critical stuff is very important

fundamental runes are necessary

[light gyro]

also if you insist on renaming your gear to include all the runes it gets real funny

[paper inlet]

My GM just rarely gives us gold unless we loot something on the side

he'll probably give us an encounter with the stuff we need

[turbid dagger]

I will say
Shopping is BY FAR my least favorite part of PF2e
I don't wanna track my 8765 gold and sift through 47 items that like
Let me see through smoke or some shit
To find an item I actually want

[warped orbit]

it can be a bit tough to go through the lists, yeah

[paper inlet]

Oh you're level 4, here's an assassin with far too many knives and they all have a striking rune!

[solar storm]

Oh my god yeah

[light gyro]

one thing i wished the integrated foundry modules had was loot tokens so that becomes someone else's problem so i dont have to read three 4-digit numbers every time they open a chest

[solar storm]

Every time my party comes back from the Vaults with treasure and gold I'm like "please go shopping please"

[turbid dagger]

And like 135458052245426702343247 bestiary entries so you can usually find something you want to run at the level your group is at with enough digging

[light gyro]

monster variety is pretty goodo

[solar storm]

tbf I love this shit

I also like how ABP means you can blow all your gold on weird shit and not fall behind on stats

[warped orbit]

being able to just make chests and such a token with attached inventory is both cool and very convenient IMO

[solar storm]

I'm confused... the PF2 system has loot tokens

[warped orbit]

ABP for fundamental runes is good IMO, yeah

[light gyro]

you know what, i should just do that in advance. im already putting faces on the faceless tokens anyway

[warped orbit]

oh I misread what you said haha
yeah you can do that in the PF2 module

you can also do shops as a token, which was also pretty cool

[turbid dagger]

I keep on tinkering with a realm of the mammoth lords game and every so often I think to myself
what if I do ABP and there just Isn't Money
They Don't Use Currency
You do favors for magic items or they're given to you for your contributions to the following or something

[warped orbit]

if you want shops with more specific inventory

[light gyro]

third-comm pathfinder letsgoooo

[turbid dagger]

(The Realm is Caveman Land to be clear)

[crystal walrus]

Word?

That's pretty nifty.

[turbid dagger]

I really wanna do Far Cry Primal, but with lightning bolts
(I COULD do Quest For The Frozen Flame but I have Ideas for other plots to do up there)

(And also do not own Quest lmao)

[warped orbit]

I have definitely had some very quick fights, especially for Moderate or Low encounters

[light gyro]

oh speaking of shopping, im at the stage in the AP im running where the players have outlevelled the cities they can visit. do people tend to take that into account when it comes to magic item availability?

[sinful gyro]

A character within reach of two enemies equipped melee weapons, as long as the line between those two passes though two opposite sides of the enemies space, is flanked

The foundry support for the game is nuts

[sinful gyro]

I think the main thing is they can still get runes and consumables of their level no matter what

[turbid dagger]

My solution to this has always been
'oh, your so famous, someone has come looking for you'
Someone:

[crystal walrus]

I am so ready

[sinful gyro]

Other loot is more optional

[light gyro]

oh shit i should do something with that...

[turbid dagger]

(Put a halo over his head, too)
(Or devil horns)

[warped orbit]

alternatively, at high levels you might just have to make a shopping trip to Absalom or something

but yeah wandering trader or something also works

[solar storm]

I know the rule in general but I don't have the edge cases internalized because Foundry does it for me without looking

[crystal walrus]

Oh and one last question

Any great 2e Adventure Paths?

[clever cobalt]

Enjoying Season of Ghosts atm

[turbid dagger]

Abomination Vaults is just Generically Good and has THE BEST FOUNDRY MODULE EVER MADE

[warped orbit]

Most of the newer APs are also on Foundry

[clever cobalt]

(This is not a joke it's really good)

[warped orbit]

And the modules are very good yeah

[clever cobalt]

Same people who made that module also made a module for Kingmaker 2e iirc?

[warped orbit]

All the APs from Outlaws onwards have a module I believe

[light gyro]

Abom Vaults has a reputation has being a little deadly. Half cus it's the first meat grinder a lot of new players face and half cus there's some overtuned encounters

🐦

[surreal basin]

I thinknit’s actually more specific than that

I believe that the line between the two characters has to pass through the CENTER of an enemies token

Which is important for larger fellas

At the very least foundry has fought me when that’s not the case lol

Uhhh Bloodlords is a really really good AP

[turbid dagger]

Blood Lords is high on my list of APs I want to play

[light gyro]

Strength of Thousands is pretty unique with a few caveats; you need to lean into it being episodic, it has a lot of NPCs to roleplay, some of the ways it uses extra systems is screwy (lmao influence chapter)

[sinful gyro]

The kingmaker module is good, but kingmaker itself requires you to do work on the kingdom system. But there's also free fan made modules that do that so

[turbid dagger]

I've liked my time with Strength Of Thousands a lot but I've heard a fair number of compalints about it
Mostly that yeah you are kind of jumping around between problems in a somewhat unfocused way

[sinful gyro]

I heard it cam be time jumpy cos its a school

So you have periods of like, non adventuring stuff

[light gyro]

they add a new downtime thing that takes a month (i've taken to throwing in some free downtime days in there with them happening simultaneously)

[turbid dagger]

Yeah, though I struggle to call that an issue

[sinful gyro]

Ye, it's more just something to be aware of

[solar storm]

I'm told the kingmaker kingdom stuff is a little underbaked since it wasn't playtested fully

[turbid dagger]

Also you are sort of magic cops, but like
Honestly how we've been doing it is more like
The mystery gang from Scooby Doo

[solar storm]

But there's a lot of fan patches now

[sinful gyro]

Whatever my GM is doing for it is working really well

We got like a big table to make the turns clear

[light gyro]

the bigger problem on the 'feels unfocused' thing is (SoT spoiler) ||they set up a huge problem in like book 2 and then tell you to ignore it for another 2||

[sinful gyro]

Abom vaults is more like one of those level 1-10 in a month sorta APs

[warped orbit]

trying to think how long it's been in our AV game

might actually be pretty close to a month now, and we're coming up on the end

[light gyro]

wild. in SoT we're on the final chapter of book 4 and its been like 3-4 years

at least it dodges the skyrim problem of you becoming archmage in a week

[warped orbit]

yeah we tended to usually clear a floor of the dungeon each day
interspersed with some occasional downtime in town for various reasons

[surreal basin]

My big thing with SOT is that it kinda feels like it doesn’t really commit to the school thing ever - basically only 2.5 books even take place at the school

And even the ones that do struggle with it

[solar storm]

I think its kind of hard to sell being a student after a certain level range

[light gyro]

"I gotta slay these three adult red dragons before they can unleash the ultimate destruction spell AND THE PROOOOM'S TOMOOOORROOOW!!"

[warped orbit]

IIRC after book 3, you graduate and become teachers

[light gyro]

its actually the end of book 2

[warped orbit]

and I think it also helps that the Magaambya is more a college than a school
you're all adults probably, it's more like getting a degree

[light gyro]

i get why its like this though. on one hand the magaambaya is a big interesting organisation, and on the other the adventure is a chance to really flesh out the mwangi expanse as a whole

[solar storm]

Yeah becoming "graduate students" kinda is good

[true delta]

So you can suffer from academic anxiety even in your escapist make-belief game. 😌

[frozen hatch]

In thinking of working on doing research for, and possibly putting together, a 1e "mega campaign" of sorts that would be a combination of most of the Runelord Trilogy mixed together and happening simultaneously. The idea was start with book 1 of return before moving on to book 1 of shattered star to help establish the threat of the runelords' return, get the party integrated into the Pathfinder society, and also establish the sinhedron as an artifact to try and hunt the shards to complete since it'd be better in the party's hands than the Runelords. From there continue with the Magnimar adventures and following the plot line of both Shattered Star and Return with only really the last two or so books from Rise being used (might change my mind and include more but for now am undecided.) Ultimately I will let the party decide if they want to do the Shattered Star or Rise of the Runelords final sections first but ultimately end the campaign using the final (or final 2) books of Return to cap things off.

I know this is a massive challenge to put together but I was curious what you guys thought about this and what advice you might have to give? One concern I have is leveling and for the most part I normally use milestone and was curious if I keep with that what might be good level up milestones or should I instead go with slow level progression due to the sheer amount of content at play? Would a campaign this long and with so much stuff actually be enjoyable to play in for the players and once put together do you think it'd be enjoyable to gm? What do you guys think about this idea of mine?

[frozen hatch]

I understand if this is too ambitious but it does have me curious

[barren cipher]

i'm not familiar enough with the material to comment on that but people have been playing unending megacampaigns since, like

before D&D was invented

[surreal basin]

So unless you're gonna do pretty severe editing of adventures, the problem is that paizo aps even for 1e expect you to be at very specific levels in each adventure at each chapter

and if you go into those chapters at the wrong level it wildly changes the experience

[frozen hatch]

It's why I was considering just sticking with milestone (but not sure when to put the level ups) or go with slow exp progression. Also I figured with how dangerous some encounters can be, moving between difficult and easy encounters might give them some breathing room.

Honestly never done anything this big and figured it'd be an interesting challenge to give myself.

What do you suggest for how to handle leveling though?

[barren cipher]

milestone is the only game in town

[surreal basin]

Yeah I was gonna say I run pretty normal games are I only use milestone ever

I never run XP even in games where it’s supposed to be the only choice

[barren cipher]

i think the only thing that could get me to go back to trad xp is some sort of genre parody

[frozen hatch]

Problem is that normally I'd agree and the APs usually give you guides on how to progress but instead of 6 books, I am looking at about 14-15 books. Iirc Rise of the Runelords take from levels 1-17, Shattered Star runs from 1-16, while Return of the Runelords runs from 1-20.

[surreal basin]

Yeah so my problem there is

Like

[frozen hatch]

Since I am mixing the books up and will have a more encounters, dungeons, and content than normal APs (which has progression theorized around medium/normal xp progression), I was thinking either going with slow progression or figuring out where to actually put the level up milestones.

[surreal basin]

One book takes you from 1-5

You need to go from levels 1-5 in a single book

[frozen hatch]

Some only do 1-3

Or 1-4

[surreal basin]

So unless you run the level 1 part of each book consecutively and then level up

The level expectation is gonna be way off

[frozen hatch]

The leveling is one of the bigger hurdles I am running into.

I do at least in the beginning plan to start with return's book 1 followed immediately by shattered's book 1.

[solar tendon]

I think you need to decide when you expect players to level up either way

[solar storm]

I only use XP for Pathfinder

It's a very easy system to use XP for

[frozen hatch]

Hmmm.....

[warped orbit]

PF2 XP is also very predictable fortunately

[frozen hatch]

This is 1e

[solar storm]

Oh yeah idk about that

I never played PF1 just some 3.5

Except for a kind of poorly thought out one shot

[frozen hatch]

Honestly I've always done milestones and would just give the party the level up when the suggested "players should be Level X by the time they reach/do Y" but with how big this campaign would be I feel I will either need to do one of the following:

1. milestones but keep them more spread out and figure out good times/moments to do that.

2. experiment with slow exp progression (never used exp before when gming) before maybe speeding things up by switching to milestones later. Alternatively APs assume you start with 15 point buy but maybe start them with something like a 20 point buy instead to give them a leg up.

3. do something a bit different that I haven't considered.

[rustic cape]

Not Gatewalkers

Gatewalkers is clearly very experimental but

I think the null hypothesis was indicated

Also it is definitely supposed to be an 11-20

Also also the deviant powers are just not good enough to justify the potential risks of using them

They needed to make them actually overpowered, I think

[turbid dagger]

The one person I know of who actually played Gatewalkers gave it glowing reviews but it does seem Deeply Strange

To the point that the final boss is ||a powered down version of a dude from monsters of myth||

[solar storm]

Huh that does seem odd

[true delta]

Unfortunately, it's the one I'm trying to run and I sadly have to concur. The powers are too weak and from early on (which is where my group is at), some plot points are just confusing. But throughout it all, there appear to be (not played so far yet) many plot points which are incompatible or which are kind of superfluous but cause problems.

[crystal walrus]

Sounds rife for remixing

if you can be arsed

[true delta]

What I would do with Gatewalkers if I had the time is set up a power struggle between competing organizations of paranormal investigators. Possibly with some sort of faction turn thing and with missions in many different places. Which may or may not lead to playing through the case files in The Dark Archive instead.

I'd also love to have more different deviant abilities. I love that Dark Archive includes funky horror feats you can get through various events (rubber body from having survived an ooze, for instance). It would be cool to have some of that variety as deviant abilities.

[limber comet]

Gatewalkers is awesome in concept

Bad in execution

Cool setting articles tho

[clever cobalt]

Yeah

It's a shame

Honestly it should have been a 1-20

[limber comet]

I...

Agree, actually

[tough perch]

the line has to pass through opposite sides, or opposite corners

[clever cobalt]

||We should be able to fight Osoyo||

[tough perch]

so these are valid flanking

while this is not

[clever cobalt]

Correct

Also, its worth noting that as of Tian Xia, Fist of the Ruby Phoenix is referenced in the book

So I'm gonna assume that FotRP and everything prior is now canonically in the past

[true delta]

Abso-fucking-lutely.

[clever cobalt]

Which is
Age of Ashes
Extinction Curse
Agents of Edgewatch
Abomination Vaults
And of course Fist of the Ruby Phoenix

[clever cobalt]

He was definitely a cool concept and also why I think Gatewalkers should have been a 1-20

[limber comet]

I think there should just be more Pathfinder exclusives GOOs

Like, Nhimbaloth and Xhamen-Dor are so cool be ause they're unique and fresh

[clever cobalt]

I don't think Osoyo is a GOO, just an entity from the Dark Tapestry

Albeit a powerful one

[limber comet]

It's close enough considering that ||in the continuing the campaign, it's listed as lvl 27, which is close to some of the GOO levels in Strange Aeons from 1e||

[clever cobalt]

He is compared to a Demigod though, like Treerazer

True

[limber comet]

Like, really close

[clever cobalt]

Fair

[limber comet]

So I'd classify him as one

[clever cobalt]

Plus killing beings of that power is always cool even if it goes against the Lovecraft vibe

[limber comet]

But it's the pathfinder vibe

B)

[true delta]

With Gatewalkers being my first AP, I'm honestly a little worried the other ones may have the same issues with confusing plot points. Stuff like the video game problem of heroes apparently foiling a villain's plan, only for the villain to pursue a completely different plan which has supposedly been their goal all along. etc., etc.. Are other APs more narratively well-thought out?

[limber comet]

Yes

[clever cobalt]

Yes

[true delta]

That's a relief!

[clever cobalt]

Gatewalkers is just a bit... incoherant

For reasons I'm sure you know

[true delta]

Yeah

[limber comet]

Abomination Vaults is a good example of a coherent story

So is Ruby Phoenix

Season of Ghosts too

Stolen Fate as well

[true delta]

Due to the dreaded monster called SCHEDULING, I'm thinking about ending it after ||Kaneepo||, actually. They can be ||an Elven noble from Castrovel who Osoyo wove a thread of the Dark Tapestry through.|| But alas, I've said this before since the dreaded scheduling monster does not allow for the plot to advance.

Thanks, good to have a list!

[echo briar]

The turtle has reach. He is clearly flanking with one of the rats, but which one?

[worthy stump]

trick question, there's a third rat with a longspear out of frame /s

[tough perch]

gunrat

i believe

[worthy stump]

should be, yeah, given how the flank rules are worded

a line from the center of the turtle's square to the center of gun rat's square passes through opposite edges of the zombie there

[tough perch]

actually, maybe by a absurdly RAW interpretation, turtle might not be flanking at all

no line goes over opposite sides, nor opposite corners

however i think not allowing a flank here would be insane

[worthy stump]

oh, true enough. yeah, RAW flanking with reach gets... hairy

[turbid dagger]

Yeah its fucked up evil and cursed but I believe the turtle needs to go north for pajama rat flank or south for gun rat flank

[warped orbit]

that's actually correct, yeah

no flanking here

[worthy stump]

[warped orbit]

also we just got into the final fight in AV

and I immediately hero point rerolled a save into a crit fail and got myself Stunned for a minute

gonna have to keep saving, to see if I can actually do something

really strenghtening my belief to make Hero Points at minimum not able to worsen your roll lmao

[worthy stump]

oof, yeah, that's rough

my groups tend to allow hero point rerolls to add 10 to the roll if it's below 11. but that does make them significantly stronger, and we do it mostly because we give them out differently

[warped orbit]

I also somehow failed two saves to remove it so far (both also rerolled)

really unlucky

...and then my teammates charge forward to the boss and abandon me and the Ranger to the adds

while I'm still stunned

aaaand I'm downed

okay the Ranger saved me, fortunately
and since the Stun was caused by an illusion, I am functional again

okay we recovered
and I got to finish the boss with a DeS crit

loaded a Magnetic Shot, which tipped it up enough to be a crit

[warped orbit]

after some AV story spoilers and a mad dash out the dungeon, we made it
we beat Abomination Vaults

[frank crystal]

Hmm, honestly a fencer swash with duelist is probably pretty basic but like

That sounds like a really fun build

Also huh, it does kinda seem like the rapier is the best swash weapon

For this build anyway

I don’t care about agile, I probably won’t be attacking more then once anyway

The disarm is nice because that’s actually good now and the deadly is occasionally helpful with a finisher for a massive burst

Especially since my enemies will probably be flat footed most of the time

[turbid dagger]

🎊
I was a little worried after the whole 'paralyzed in addswarm as the party leeroy jenkins'd', glad it worked out

[warped orbit]

it got a little dicey, but we managed

thankfully I am very good at extricating myself out of bad situations with Doctor's Visitation

for Striding away while also tossing a Battle Medicine on myself

[turbid dagger]

The fact you can use Doctor's Visitation to skedaddle away and heal yourself is so funny in a flavor mismatch kind of way
Kind of like how everyone used Expeditious Retreat to get into fights faster with the speed boost

[tough perch]

depending on several factors, you can also try getting the aldori dueling sword

[frank crystal]

Eh, this guy is gonna be an elf